Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/LesleyRiddoch/status/1357327004325077001

"Estonia set 2 reach Nordic GDP levels by 2025. Before 1991, country was 100% reliant on USSR for trade. No economists predicted this or other post indy transformations. But that won’t get psychically transmitted to the public @theSNPMedia. Rebuttal matters"

I posted earlier this week a link to the YouTube documentary about Estonia. Look it up, Estonia, Baltic Tiger

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-55942354?__twitter_impression=true


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-55942354?__twitter_impression=true


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One of the main ideas in government is to make it much clearer when the UK government is involved in Scottish life.

Not sure they've thought this through? :confused::greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://capx.co/scotland-should-have-a-referendum-but-with-conditions/

Yes needs to get 60%.


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[ronaldo7]

The LSE report is very limited in its coverage of the independence issue, covering only trade. The work of Mr Gallagher and his better together acolytes is there for all to see. It's been shown on here however how new countries can improve their worth in the world with independence.The report is job done through for the unionist side by getting it out through the main news outlets, and the Tories alongside their enablers. You can feel that the Tories and friends are ramping up the electioneering towards our elections without the starting gun having been fired.

I've noticed some fact checking of the report which is calling it false, but it might get something right in about 25 to 30 years time.

[Bristolhibby]

Brexit gets waved through on the side of a bus.

Scottish Independence is scrutinised to the Nth degree.

Why is that?

Just need a catchy slogan.

“It’s Not Working”.

That should do the trick.

What is the Yes Campaigns “Take Back Control”?

J

[Callum_62]

Ah, course... Now the yes side are winning we need a super majority.... If we are even allowed to have a say

[emoji106]



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[Bristolhibby]

https://capx.co/scotland-should-have-a-referendum-but-with-conditions/

Yes needs to get 60%.


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That’s utter trash.

Sorry, 50% + 1 is the answer.

Waffles a load about being illegal for a country to vote for its own independence.

National Self Determination is in shrines in International Law.

Why is Scotland different?

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1357646952737996806?s=21

No ruling on whether SG can hold a referendum. Good news for SNP.


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[ronaldo7]

Brexit gets waved through on the side of a bus.

Scottish Independence is scrutinised to the Nth degree.

Why is that?

Just need a catchy slogan.

“It’s Not Working”.

That should do the trick.

What is the Yes Campaigns “Take Back Control”?

J

Now Scotland Now launching today.

@NowScotlandNow

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1357646952737996806?s=21

No ruling on whether SG can hold a referendum. Good news for SNP.


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Inner House here they come.

[ronaldo7]

The Union Unit. Now we know what we're up against. :wink:

The subject of an independent Scotland’s finances seems to be a hot topic in the Gove household. His wife, Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine, recently appeared to lend support a particularly mad plan to cut Scotland’s income.

Harriet Sergeant, a research fellow at conservative think tank Centre for Policy Studies. posted on Twitter: “To gave [sic] Scotland a taste of independence why not suspend the Barnett formula now. Then let the Scots vote in a year’s time. That way they can see how SNP largess depends on English money.”

Ms Vine retweeted the post with a single word comment: ‘’Indeed’’.

https://www.businessforscotland.com/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-westminsters-failing-union-unit/

[JeMeSouviens]

Brexit gets waved through on the side of a bus.

Scottish Independence is scrutinised to the Nth degree.

Why is that?

Just need a catchy slogan.

“It’s Not Working”.

That should do the trick.

What is the Yes Campaigns “Take Back Control”?

J


"Enough is enough"

Or my late father in law's favourite - "Fair's fair but to hell wi' nonsense!"

[ronaldo7]

The next time the Tories tell you, now is not the time. Show them this...Over 60 years since they won the popular vote in Scotland.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1357149816581742593

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s utter trash.

Sorry, 50% + 1 is the answer.

Waffles a load about being illegal for a country to vote for its own independence.

National Self Determination is in shrines in International Law.

Why is Scotland different?

J

It really is a load of waffle. The stuff about Québec in particular. The clarity act doesn't specify a threshold for a referendum to pass. It's mainly about establishing a clear question*. "Should Scotland be an independent country?" couldn't be much clearer.

Mr Lloyd's book title - "Should auld acquaintance be forgot: the great mistake of Scottish independence", rather gives the game away on his biases. Desperate stuff.


* Background:

The 1995 Québec referendum asked - "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

There was a big stooshie at the time that the question was so long winded and did "political partnership" even mean independence? There was a lot of chat about "sovereignty association" which seemed to imply some sort of very loose federation or confederation.

[One Day Soon]

That LSE report: pinch of salt, unionist front, Jim Gallagher, only half the picture, can't be trusted....

One of the other of three people consulted :

"Mairi Spowage

Mairi Spowage is a Principal Knowledge Exchange Fellow and the Deputy Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Her areas of expertise include economic policy, economic statistics, national accounting, public sector finances, and economic and fiscal forecasting. Mairi leads on the Institute's work with various partners, including those in business, the public and third sector. She is regularly asked to give evidence on economic and fiscal matters at Parliamentary Committees, such as the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee. Mairi is leading on various projects to improve regional economic statistics, looking at inter-regional trade, business engagement and encouraging graduates into careers in analysis through the Economic Futures programme. She is also developing the Fraser’s capacity building CPD programme in the use of national and local economic data and statistics. Previously, Mairi was the Deputy Chief Executive of the Scottish Fiscal Commission and the Head of National Accounts at the Scottish Government, and has over a decade of experience working in different areas of statistics and analysis, including transport, household surveys and performance measurement."


On the report itself, it was produced by exactly the same University, School and author who produced a report on the economic effects of Brexit upon Scotland. Figures in that report were quoted at the time by Nicola Sturgeon as evidence of the harmful effect of Brexit upon the Scottish economy. Pretty staggering dishonesty to quote one and trash the other.

This is why nationalists are not trusted on the economics of independence. Facing both ways at the same time and ending up with no credibilty on the tough questions as a result.

https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall/status/1357491444961992704

[One Day Soon]

It really is a load of waffle. The stuff about Québec in particular. The clarity act doesn't specify a threshold for a referendum to pass. It's mainly about establishing a clear question*. "Should Scotland be an independent country?" couldn't be much clearer.

Mr Lloyd's book title - "Should auld acquaintance be forgot: the great mistake of Scottish independence", rather gives the game away on his biases. Desperate stuff.


* Background:

The 1995 Québec referendum asked - "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

There was a big stooshie at the time that the question was so long winded and did "political partnership" even mean independence? There was a lot of chat about "sovereignty association" which seemed to imply some sort of very loose federation or confederation.


50% plus one is enough. It's a terrible, terrible outcome but it's enough. If there is another referendum we really need a result that is 60/40 - or preferably even a bigger margin - either way. We need to quit this constitutional crap and move on, whether in a status quo or independent Scotland context. Any result less than that margin leaves the debate smouldering and distracting.

[JeMeSouviens]

That LSE report: pinch of salt, unionist front, Jim Gallagher, only half the picture, can't be trusted....

One of the other of three people consulted :

"Mairi Spowage

Mairi Spowage is a Principal Knowledge Exchange Fellow and the Deputy Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Her areas of expertise include economic policy, economic statistics, national accounting, public sector finances, and economic and fiscal forecasting. Mairi leads on the Institute's work with various partners, including those in business, the public and third sector. She is regularly asked to give evidence on economic and fiscal matters at Parliamentary Committees, such as the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee. Mairi is leading on various projects to improve regional economic statistics, looking at inter-regional trade, business engagement and encouraging graduates into careers in analysis through the Economic Futures programme. She is also developing the Fraser’s capacity building CPD programme in the use of national and local economic data and statistics. Previously, Mairi was the Deputy Chief Executive of the Scottish Fiscal Commission and the Head of National Accounts at the Scottish Government, and has over a decade of experience working in different areas of statistics and analysis, including transport, household surveys and performance measurement."


On the report itself, it was produced by exactly the same University, School and author who produced a report on the economic effects of Brexit upon Scotland. Figures in that report were quoted at the time by Nicola Sturgeon as evidence of the harmful effect of Brexit upon the Scottish economy. Pretty staggering dishonesty to quote one and trash the other.

This is why nationalists are not trusted on the economics of independence. Facing both ways at the same time and ending up with no credibilty on the tough questions as a result.

https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall/status/1357491444961992704

Whereas Blair McDougall is a paragon of trustworthiness. :faf:

The reality is both sides spin the arse out of everything all the time and everybody has that priced in.

[One Day Soon]

Whereas Blair McDougall is a paragon of trustworthiness. :faf:

The reality is both sides spin the arse out of everything all the time and everybody has that priced in.


These are not Blair McDougall's words, they are the contradictory words of Nicola Sturgeon approvingly quoting the University, School and academic on the perils of Brexit on one hand and then nationalist response (including Mike Russell MSP) in dismissing the same University, School and academic on the cost to Scotland of independence on the other.

All the emojis in the world don't spin away the dishonesty in this. The University, School and academic quoted by Sturgeon - Dr Thomas Sampson, Associate Professor of Economics, London School of Economics - can't be both imperiously correct on the costs to Scotland of Brexit and simultaneously wildly wrong about the costs to Scotland of independence. Unless of course the politicians involved don't actually care about the costs of either and its just a political stick to advance the independence proposition regardless of the costs and consequences.

[CloudSquall]

Is it not possible for an author to write both good and crap reports :confused:


Not that I'm saying that politicians don't pick and choose their facts and figures but the argument that because Sturgeon quoted figures from a previous report means that she has to treat any further reports from the same author as the word of god is piss poor.

[JeMeSouviens]

These are not Blair McDougall's words, they are the contradictory words of Nicola Sturgeon approvingly quoting the University, School and academic on the perils of Brexit on one hand and then nationalist response (including Mike Russell MSP) in dismissing the same University, School and academic on the cost to Scotland of independence on the other.

All the emojis in the world don't spin away the dishonesty in this. The University, School and academic quoted by Sturgeon - Dr Thomas Sampson, Associate Professor of Economics, London School of Economics - can't be both imperiously correct on the costs to Scotland of Brexit and simultaneously wildly wrong about the costs to Scotland of independence. Unless of course the politicians involved don't actually care about the costs of either and its just a political stick to advance the independence proposition regardless of the costs and consequences.

I already stated above (if you'd read it) that anyone that disputes that exporting firms within an EU Scotland would face a significant drag on trade with Brexit rUK is away with the fairies. But it's a short term albeit significant pain that is absolutely necessary unless you want long term guaranteed decline to a much, much worse state.

[Hiber-nation]

That LSE report: pinch of salt, unionist front, Jim Gallagher, only half the picture, can't be trusted....

One of the other of three people consulted :

"Mairi Spowage

Mairi Spowage is a Principal Knowledge Exchange Fellow and the Deputy Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Her areas of expertise include economic policy, economic statistics, national accounting, public sector finances, and economic and fiscal forecasting. Mairi leads on the Institute's work with various partners, including those in business, the public and third sector. She is regularly asked to give evidence on economic and fiscal matters at Parliamentary Committees, such as the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee. Mairi is leading on various projects to improve regional economic statistics, looking at inter-regional trade, business engagement and encouraging graduates into careers in analysis through the Economic Futures programme. She is also developing the Fraser’s capacity building CPD programme in the use of national and local economic data and statistics. Previously, Mairi was the Deputy Chief Executive of the Scottish Fiscal Commission and the Head of National Accounts at the Scottish Government, and has over a decade of experience working in different areas of statistics and analysis, including transport, household surveys and performance measurement."


On the report itself, it was produced by exactly the same University, School and author who produced a report on the economic effects of Brexit upon Scotland. Figures in that report were quoted at the time by Nicola Sturgeon as evidence of the harmful effect of Brexit upon the Scottish economy. Pretty staggering dishonesty to quote one and trash the other.

This is why nationalists are not trusted on the economics of independence. Facing both ways at the same time and ending up with no credibilty on the tough questions as a result.

https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall/status/1357491444961992704

I used to work to Jim, he was as as anti-Indy as they come back then (1999), anti-football and anti a few others things but a great guy. He was never going to change that's for sure.

I knew Mairi when she worked in the SG. Tried to drink 10 pints one night at a leaving do because "I'm the equal of any f****** man" then fell down. Very bright though but no idea whether she left the SG because she felt stifled by SNP policies. That's just a wild guess :wink:

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/thoughtland/status/1357760699439669250

George Galloway back with the absolute game changing "All for Unity" party.

Edit: Interesting to add that Galloway campaigned with Pat Kane and a very young Sturgeon in 92 for a multi option referendum and told Pat he wanted indy on the ballot.

[JimBHibees]

I used to work to Jim, he was as as anti-Indy as they come back then (1999), anti-football and anti a few others things but a great guy. He was never going to change that's for sure.

I knew Mairi when she worked in the SG. Tried to drink 10 pints one night at a leaving do because "I'm the equal of any f****** man" then fell down. Very bright though but no idea whether she left the SG because she felt stifled by SNP policies. That's just a wild guess :wink:

Sounds like a great night out. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Richard Murphy has taken a look at the super duper LSE forecast for an Independent Scotland.

Some points.

Take, for example, the claim that the cost of trade between Scotland and England will increase by 31%. Ludicrously, this is based on the estimated cost increase in trade between the UK and Ireland in 1922. As assumptions go, I cannot think of anything more ridiculous. The UK and Ireland were pretty much still at war. The UK controlled all the routes in and out of Ireland and could charge what it liked, and technology was utterly different. To pretend that this data is in any way relevant is absurd. Sheer common sense suggests that the comparison makes no sense.

There is a final absurdity to note. The authors seem to assume that there will be no behavioural changes despite these costs. But just look at what is happening in Ireland right now. Literally, almost overnight new freight routes that avoid costs have opened. And so would they from Scotland to avoid the claimed costs of going through England. This would be most especially the case if Scotland rejoined the EU, when import substitution from the UK might be very significant.

Put it all together and the claims in this report are literally not worth the paper they are written on. I suggested the estimates be consigned to that receptacle in the corner of your room, never to be discussed again.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/04/the-lse-report-on-the-increased-costs-in-trade-for-an-independent-scotland-is-based-on-unsubstantiated-data-and-absurd-assumptions/?fbclid=IwAR2Qirx5m-aRQ3ZG7f5wv-OicItTP5HEMQUoEBkdQqiKcxd6VXBlF0WtA1o

The straw clutchers will have to do better.

[Hiber-nation]

Sounds like a great night out. :greengrin

Oh it was....but it would be me falling down if I tried to drink 10 pints these days :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

Richard Murphy has taken a look at the super duper LSE forecast for an Independent Scotland.

Some points.

Take, for example, the claim that the cost of trade between Scotland and England will increase by 31%. Ludicrously, this is based on the estimated cost increase in trade between the UK and Ireland in 1922. As assumptions go, I cannot think of anything more ridiculous. The UK and Ireland were pretty much still at war. The UK controlled all the routes in and out of Ireland and could charge what it liked, and technology was utterly different. To pretend that this data is in any way relevant is absurd. Sheer common sense suggests that the comparison makes no sense.

There is a final absurdity to note. The authors seem to assume that there will be no behavioural changes despite these costs. But just look at what is happening in Ireland right now. Literally, almost overnight new freight routes that avoid costs have opened. And so would they from Scotland to avoid the claimed costs of going through England. This would be most especially the case if Scotland rejoined the EU, when import substitution from the UK might be very significant.

Put it all together and the claims in this report are literally not worth the paper they are written on. I suggested the estimates be consigned to that receptacle in the corner of your room, never to be discussed again.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/04/the-lse-report-on-the-increased-costs-in-trade-for-an-independent-scotland-is-based-on-unsubstantiated-data-and-absurd-assumptions/?fbclid=IwAR2Qirx5m-aRQ3ZG7f5wv-OicItTP5HEMQUoEBkdQqiKcxd6VXBlF0WtA1o

The straw clutchers will have to do better.

I’ve said before, opportunities for Leith & Rosyth.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Union saved! (again) :greengrin

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9229625/Secret-No-10-plan-send-Prince-Edward-live-Edinburgh-save-Union.html

[CloudSquall]

Union saved! (again) :greengrin

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9229625/Secret-No-10-plan-send-Prince-Edward-live-Edinburgh-save-Union.html

It reads as if he is a royal from the 1700s being sent north to quell unruly Jacobites.

[ronaldo7]

It reads as if he is a royal from the 1700s being sent north to quell unruly Jacobites.

Anyone recall another Edward riding north to quell the pesky Scots.

I see they're proposing to put a butcher's apron on number plates. That'll make us think again. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210206/180a01bfabcc7c068a3a08c89705cd4a.jpg


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[Berwickhibby]

Anyone recall another Edward riding north to quell the pesky Scots.

I see they're proposing to put a butcher's apron on number plates. That'll make us think again. 😂

It's the Union Flag not Butchers Apron ...what an insulting discription

[bigwheel]

It's the Union Flag not Butchers Apron ...what an insulting discription

there’s nothing positive about it for me ..that’s nothing against our military or anything else - but it’s been used for most of my life as a symbol of unionism, anti catholic tribal hate and/or white power ...it’s not a flag I have any positive feeling for - if (as the story above suggest) our number plates start to have them on it - I’d be changing it early after getting the car ...

[Bristolhibby]

there’s nothing positive about it for me ..that’s nothing against our military or anything else - but it’s been used for most of my life as a symbol of unionism, anti catholic tribal hate and/or white power ...it’s not a flag I have any positive feeling for - if (as the story above suggest) our number plates start to have them on it - I’d be changing it early after getting the car ...

This, and I work for a Central Government Department!

I really don’t feel British at all. Despite living down here in England.

J

[CapitalGreen]

It's the Union Flag not Butchers Apron ...what an insulting discription

You seem to take offence really easily. Why are you offended about the name someone gives a flag?

[Jack]

This, and I work for a Central Government Department!

I really don’t feel British at all. Despite living down here in England.

J

This, this, and I retired from a Central Government Department!

I really don’t feel British at all. Despite being English.

J :-)

I'd also add to what's already been said that this flag has been hijacked by groups I'd rather not be associated with in any way, shape or form.

[ronaldo7]

It's the Union Flag not Butchers Apron ...what an insulting discription

I suppose that all depends on how you see it. I've seen more insulting comments regarding people on here, rather than flags.

Anyway, as it successfully bypassed the swear filter, I'll continue to use it, thanks.

[Berwickhibby]

You seem to take offence really easily. Why are you offended about the name someone gives a flag?

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

[cabbageandribs1875]

the Butchers Apron is a vile flag...just vile, wouldn't wipe it with my ***e



sooner the blue of Scotland is taken out of it the better

[Bangkok Hibby]

The 2016 referendum and all the Brexit chat has exposed the true differences between the "majority" of Scots and the "majority" of English. I'm off and never coming back but wouldn't dream of calling myself British ever again.

[weecounty hibby]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......
That is the most pathetic thing I've seen by you and that is saying something. BNP, Britain First, EDF, etc. If you want to see what the union flag means have a look at them. That is a flag hijack, not what the SNP do with the saltire. And when you look at that list which ones are closer to far right neo Nazism? It suRe as **** isn't the SNP.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's the Union Flag not Butchers Apron ...what an insulting discription

Insulting to decent butchers across the country. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

Resorting to insulting thousands of people of various ethnicity won't help any case you want to make. 🙄

[danhibees1875]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

I wouldn't refer to the Union flag as the butcher's apron personally but it surely comes under "meh", especially when compared to your use of "snazi party".


On topic, I can't say I'm bothered by saltires/union flags on things like food, drink, driving licenses, or number plates either way myself.

[lapsedhibee]

Because it was a flag I served

I wasn't there so I don't know, but wasn't your job to defend/protect the people of a country, rather than a flag? :dunno:

[Callum_62]

Served a flag?

Snazi party?

Gosh.

I'm assuming you wernt 'serving the flag' against the actually nazis

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[Callum_62]

Insulting to decent butchers across the country. [emoji6]Boghall butchers are ragin.

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[ronaldo7]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

I had a job, I left that job and went to another job, and after that, I got another job. I wasn't brain washed about serving a flag.

[Berwickhibby]

Served a flag?

Snazi party?

Gosh.

I'm assuming you wernt 'serving the flag' against the actually nazis

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I only used that term as apparently if it passes the swear filter then it's acceptable language to use on here!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Served a flag?

Snazi party?

Gosh.

I'm assuming you wernt 'serving the flag' against the actually nazis

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repugnant ain't it :agree: and not for the first time either, i remember a plum called tornadoe using that term......... also a term quite often used to describe the SNP by the right wing plums on the internet...nuff said

[weecounty hibby]

I only used that term as apparently if it passes the swear filter then it's acceptable language to use on here!!

You are getting more and more pathetic and more and more desperate. Why not just own the fact that you made a mistake using that term and participate in a bit of debate. Townsfolk never answered why you think SNP have hijacked the Saltire but the BNP, EDL Britain First etc haven't hijacked the union flag. And also which groups between SNP and those others mentioned are actual far right neo nazis?

[Berwickhibby]

You are getting more and more pathetic and more and more desperate. Why not just own the fact that you made a mistake using that term and participate in a bit of debate. Townsfolk never answered why you think SNP have hijacked the Saltire but the BNP, EDL Britain First etc haven't hijacked the union flag. And also which groups between SNP and those others mentioned are actual far right neo nazis?

Yawn !!! your starting to bore me with your inane drivel.... the thing is I objected years ago about the hijacking of the Union Flag, I have actually gone toe to toe with the idiots of the right wing and not just spraffed about it on a internet site. As a punk in the 70s fighting the NF, to fighting the BNP in London and the EDL marches in Berwick. I won't respond again and you won't dent my mood after Hibs and Scotlands result today .....

[G B Young]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

I fully understand why as an armed services veteran you would take offence at such a term for a flag which plays such an iconic role in your profession. And I recall on your thread about the Clash how you played your part in facing down those far-right organisations who try to appropriate it. Just a little before my time or I'd love to have been there. The footage from when they played that ANL rally circa 1978 is superb.

While I wouldn't describe the SNP in the way you have it's certainly true to say that they, at least as much as any other organisation, have appropriated a country's flag for their own ends.

[Berwickhibby]

I fully understand why as an armed services veteran you would take offence at such a term for a flag which plays such an iconic role in your profession. And I recall on your thread about the Clash how you played your part in facing down those far-right organisations who try to appropriate it. Just a little before my time or I'd love to have been there. The footage from when they played that ANL rally circa 1978 is superb.

While I wouldn't describe the SNP in the way you have it's certainly true to say that they, at least as much as any other organisation, have appropriated a country's flag for their own ends.

I agree my term is repugnant... but I also find the term used for the Union Flag disgusting

[DaveF]

While I wouldn't describe the SNP in the way you have it's certainly true to say that they, at least as much as any other organisation, have appropriated a country's flag for their own ends.

It isn't their flag. There is nothing stopping your Tory party using it 🙂

[makaveli1875]

Gotta love a flag debate

It's a butchers apron
Naw it's just a flag
It's a vile flag
I served that flag
Naw it's just a flag

Jesus man do you ***** no get bored waffling the same pish day in day out

[Moulin Yarns]

It isn't their flag. There is nothing stopping your Tory party using it 🙂

Well, they do kinda, in the Scottish branch logo, so the Nasty party does use the st Andrews Cross

[Moulin Yarns]

Boghall butchers are ragin.

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My local butchers is really good, they have a model of ET on the delivery bike in the window, waving a Hibs flag

[Moulin Yarns]

http://no-deportations.org.uk/Media-1/ButchersApron.html#:~:text=None%20of%20the%20count ries%20asked,as%20the%20'Butchers%20Apron'.

A good article about the naming of the butchers Apron if anyone is interested

[G B Young]

This, and I work for a Central Government Department!

I really don’t feel British at all. Despite living down here in England.

J

Out of interest, why do you think that is?

I'm not suggesting you should ever feel any less Scottish just because you live in England, but I'm guessing you've lived there for quite some time? I also noticed on the main forum you mention being a Bath rugby supporter (I remember being in that part of the world on a Saturday afternoon a number of years ago and it was the first time I'd been somewhere in the UK where the pubs were packed with pre-match rugby fans rather than football fans! Buzzing atmosphere and the Bath ground looked like a good old fashioned place to watch a match) so it sounds like you feel quite comfortable as part of the community there?

Personally, I've spent a lot of time in various parts of the UK due to work commitments and also having quite a far-flung circle of friends. I have always very much enjoyed the diversity that offers and can honestly say I feel (and always will feel) perfectly content being British. I've always regarded myself as a proud Scot but see no reason why that can't go hand in hand with being British too.

As I've said before, it's an issue I never viewed through a political lens (until compelled to do so back in 2014) but perhaps politics is at the heart of the issue for you?

[Keith_M]

Out of interest, why do you think that is?

...



I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

[Renfrew_Hibby]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

Pretty much with you on all of that.

[Ozyhibby]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

The long term plan is to keep us as spongers and hope we remain grateful for it.
I can’t understand why anyone who lives here would want that for Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenlex]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:
Amen brother.:aok: I’d just like to add since Thatchers 80s we are getting dragged so far from socialist values it’s very disheartening. I include the Blair years in that too. I like to call it the red Tory era.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

Great post, even in my time in the British Army I never really felt British, I was just a Scot in it. I also got to hear several times that I'm not real British as I'm Scottish, which was fine by me.

P.S. I didn't serve a flag either just for clarity. That would be stupid as it's just a piece of cloth.

[ronaldo7]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:


Great post.

[Lendo]

Because it was a flag I served, my beloved Saltire had been hijacked by the Snazi party who insist putting their political logo in the middle......

Have I accidentally stumbled on to Rangers Media this afternoon?

[Keith_M]

Pretty much with you on all of that.


Amen brother.:aok: I’d just like to add since Thatchers 80s we are getting dragged so far from socialist values it’s very disheartening. I include the Blair years in that too. I like to call it the red Tory era.


Great post, even in my time in the British Army I never really felt British, I was just a Scot in it. I also got to hear several times that I'm not real British as I'm Scottish, which was fine by me.

P.S. I didn't serve a flag either just for clarity. That would be stupid as it's just a piece of cloth.


Great post.


Thanks, I'm glad it's not just me.

:aok:

[lapsedhibee]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

Very well put.

[weecounty hibby]

Thanks, I'm glad it's not just me.

:aok:

I'ts not. And you're post is a very good one. I also remember being very young my mum teaching me various Scottish folk songs and telling me the story behind them. I wondered way back then why we let another country govern our affairs. My mother by the way is anti independence although I can see a chink of light with her recently

[CloudSquall]

The long term plan is to keep us as spongers and hope we remain grateful for it.
I can’t understand why anyone who lives here would want that for Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've asked a few times and yet to get a response from unionists to the below.

What is the long term strategy, the carefully laid out plan, that is going to see Scotland go from surviving on "fiscal transfers" to having a self sufficient thriving economy on par with other independent nations surrounding us?

[Ozyhibby]

I've asked a few times and yet to get a response from unionists to the below.

What is the long term strategy, the carefully laid out plan, that is going to see Scotland go from surviving on "fiscal transfers" to having a self sufficient thriving economy on par with other independent nations surrounding us?

You’ll be waiting a while on that one. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

Out of interest, why do you think that is?

I'm not suggesting you should ever feel any less Scottish just because you live in England, but I'm guessing you've lived there for quite some time? I also noticed on the main forum you mention being a Bath rugby supporter (I remember being in that part of the world on a Saturday afternoon a number of years ago and it was the first time I'd been somewhere in the UK where the pubs were packed with pre-match rugby fans rather than football fans! Buzzing atmosphere and the Bath ground looked like a good old fashioned place to watch a match) so it sounds like you feel quite comfortable as part of the community there?

Personally, I've spent a lot of time in various parts of the UK due to work commitments and also having quite a far-flung circle of friends. I have always very much enjoyed the diversity that offers and can honestly say I feel (and always will feel) perfectly content being British. I've always regarded myself as a proud Scot but see no reason why that can't go hand in hand with being British too.

As I've said before, it's an issue I never viewed through a political lens (until compelled to do so back in 2014) but perhaps politics is at the heart of the issue for you?

I think it’s just an issue of identity. If I was asked what I am I’d say Scottish. Despite living most of my life now down here in England.

Likewise I have a broad spectrum of friends, but I think the identity of “British” is diluting.

Even my English mates would say they are English as opposed to British.

Sure we all live on the same island in the North Atlantic called Great Britain, but the Political identity I struggle with.

The flag really does nothing to me, and GSTQ is no way my National Anthem.

Bath is a great place on Rugby days. Really miss those days out with mates and kids. There’s a massive recreation ground behind the stadium where you can chuck a ball around and sink a few ciders.

J

[ACLeith]

Thanks, I'm glad it's not just me.

:aok:

You knew it wasn’t though 😉 i’ll Join you on your train.

You mention the notion we are spongers in (some of) their eyes. Tories of course always put wealth before health, so why are they being philanthropic to us and looking after us even though we drain their dosh?

[G B Young]

I think it’s just an issue of identity. If I was asked what I am I’d say Scottish. Despite living most of my life now down here in England.

Likewise I have a broad spectrum of friends, but I think the identity of “British” is diluting.

Even my English mates would say they are English as opposed to British.

Sure we all live on the same island in the North Atlantic called Great Britain, but the Political identity I struggle with.

The flag really does nothing to me, and GSTQ is no way my National Anthem.

Bath is a great place on Rugby days. Really miss those days out with mates and kids. There’s a massive recreation ground behind the stadium where you can chuck a ball around and sink a few ciders.

J

Cheers. Interesting feedback.

Like you I would always say 'Scottish' rather than 'British' if asked, but then as you point out with regard to your English friends, would anyone from Scotland, England or Wales actually say they were 'British' first and foremost? Not sure what folk from Northern Ireland would say (ie would they say I'm Irish, Northern Irish or British?).

Unlike you, though, I don't see being British as diluting. If anything, I think being able to talk up where you're from, no matter which part of the UK you're in, helps to underline the diversity each component nation brings to the table. London (admittedly more of a global melting pot), Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Cardiff are probably the cities I know best outwith Edinburgh (and maybe Glasgow) and I would say I feel as much affinity with friends and colleagues from those places as I do with those from Scotland.

Hope you get back to the Recreation Ground in the foreseeable future. It sounds like a cracking day out.

Oh, and talking of rugby and national anthems it was a sorry sight to see the Wales one played to an empty stadium today. Theirs is surely one of the greatest anthems, not just among the Six Nations teams but worldwide - especially when sung by a stadium full of Welsh fans. I'm no fan of God Save the Queen either, but I find Flower of Scotland almost as big a dirge.

[Moulin Yarns]

You know what I find funny?

The person who got all defensive about the union flag/butchers Apron hasn't been back to defend their opinion since it all kicked off yesterday.

It's almost like there was an agenda to deflect from the real debate.

[wookie70]

You’ll be waiting a while on that one. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In terms of natural resources Scotland is one of the richest nations on earth. Far richer than England per capita. The question for me is why a country with such resources is supposedly relying on handouts. In my view it would be atrocious management of those resources and the best, and only way to improve that is to completely change the management structure. I don't for a minute think Scotland would immediately flourish if we become Independent but as we are down the crapper after a Brexit vote that we didn't agree with we may as well make a start on our own recovery on our own terms. Independence for me is for a meaningful vote, a future where a fairer society is at least a possibility and and opportunity to let Scots decide what happens in Scotland rather than the rich sons of England.

I have never voted SNP up until now but they or the most prominent Independence Party will get my vote from now until we are independent. It is by far the most important political issue in my mind and everything else is of little interest until we are Independent. The English voters will continue to decide who governs the UK and how Scotland is financed within that until we are an independent nation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

only media outlets OUTSIDE of the GB point out that Scotland would be in the top ten of wealthiest countries in the world if independent, they pesky foreigners, i don't understand how they are all so wrong, i mean....the Tory-controlled papers/State TV tell us we're too poor, too small...instead they inform us that we really should thank westminster/england for keeping their boots on our necks for our own good, if only us damn "separatists" would accept we're too small/too poor. :agree:

[SHODAN]

only media outlets OUTSIDE of the GB point out that Scotland would be in the top ten of wealthiest countries in the world if independent, they pesky foreigners, i don't understand how they are all so wrong, i mean....the Tory-controlled papers/State TV tell us we're too poor, too small...instead they inform us that we really should thank westminster/england for keeping their boots on our necks for our own good, if only us damn "separatists" would accept we're too small/too poor. :agree:

What's your source for this?

[Berwickhibby]

You know what I find funny?

The person who got all defensive about the union flag/butchers Apron hasn't been back to defend their opinion since it all kicked off yesterday.

It's almost like there was an agenda to deflect from the real debate.

Still here ... but I stated I would not respond ..,my opinion has not changed

[wookie70]

What's your source for this? https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-one-worlds-wealthiest-countries-1542749

[cabbageandribs1875]

What's your source for this?


i'l try look them out, it won't be the next 10 mins, or even tonight,i'm in process of switching PC's the now and other things to do etc etc :greengrin if i come across them i'l refer back to this post, but i've read articles from German/Dutch/American publications, i watched a video of a French current affairs programme several months back explaining why Scotland would be a very financially secure country, some kind soul had translated to english(no NOT a jokey translation) i've watched an American "financial" TV talk show discuss the resources that Scotland has and just how rich an independent Scotland would be, the truth is out there, just not from the Scottish msm

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-one-worlds-wealthiest-countries-1542749

To be fair, that’s a Scottish unionist paper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

I know you didn't ask me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but I've honestly never felt 'British' either. It's there on my passport but that's about it.

I don't have a dislike for people just because they're from England, or wherever. I've always just felt that the UK is an artificial concept that is basically England plus 'the other bits'.

This is often reinforced by people from England... and elsewhere... that continually say 'England' and 'English' when they mean 'The UK' and 'British'.

Even as a small child (just to illustrate how early it started), I used to wonder when watching the titles of Dad's Army, with the Union Jack and the map of the UK, why the guy was singing 'if you think old England's done'.


In regards to The Media: We have national news and national sports programmes, discussing English events and English sports. Then we have 'regional' news and 'regional' sports programmes for any Scottish equivalents.

Waving English Flags at England football and rugby games is a relatively recent concept. When I was young, England was represented by the Union Jack and Scotland by the Saltire. We even had to watch England v Scotland games on the national TV channels with English commentators discussing the teams as 'we' (England) and 'they' (Scotland).

Thankfully that's now changed, but it all made an impression on a young mind.

On more serious matters of politics and values, things that really matter:

While we might have some shared values, I've always felt that Scotland and the Scots, in general, lean more toward a (small 's') socialist political view. IMO, we have more in common with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, etc, than with England. This difference is even more extreme now that England is now overwhelmingly represented by Tory MPs.

We've also gone through an even more divided situation where England voted to leave the EU, largely for patriotic reasons, while Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have to leave anyway, as our neighbour is much larger and outvoted us.

We are now constantly derided as the people that are being subsidised by our neighbour (spongers would be a good word for it), not good enough to go our own way and should be grateful for their largesse in keeping us afloat.



I think that about covers it.

:aok:

I remember finding that Dad's Army lyric jarring as well, although they did at least have a larger than life Scottish presence in the shape of the late, great John Laurie who played Private Frazer and regularly punctured the pompous Capt Manwairing's ego! Appropriately enough considering its title, my own dad used to love that programme.

I also remember the days of Union Jacks at Wembley, although as you say things have long since moved on - although it's hard to imagine a Scottish commentary team would have been any less partisan judging by some of the pundits who pass as 'experts' on Sportsound these days. Give me Englishman Ian Crocker's commentary on the 2016 Scottish Cup final over the BBC Scotland offering any day!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/vaccine-success-is-a-boost-for-boris-and-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true

The vaccine has saved the union. It’s amazing how many times this union has been saved.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/vaccine-success-is-a-boost-for-boris-and-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true

The vaccine has saved the union. It’s amazing how many times this union has been saved.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Twice a day at the moment. :agree:


There are signs that voters in Scotland are beginning to notice that progress there is slower than in the rest of the Union.

7 day rolling averages as of yesterday, doses per 100k population:

Wales - 853
Scotland - 721
England - 637
NI - 628

Damn, that Union's going to need saved again! :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Flags, flag abuse and flag love :rolleyes:.

All we're missing here is that 'What about William Wallace?' meme.

[JimBHibees]

In terms of natural resources Scotland is one of the richest nations on earth. Far richer than England per capita. The question for me is why a country with such resources is supposedly relying on handouts. In my view it would be atrocious management of those resources and the best, and only way to improve that is to completely change the management structure. I don't for a minute think Scotland would immediately flourish if we become Independent but as we are down the crapper after a Brexit vote that we didn't agree with we may as well make a start on our own recovery on our own terms. Independence for me is for a meaningful vote, a future where a fairer society is at least a possibility and and opportunity to let Scots decide what happens in Scotland rather than the rich sons of England.

I have never voted SNP up until now but they or the most prominent Independence Party will get my vote from now until we are independent. It is by far the most important political issue in my mind and everything else is of little interest until we are Independent. The English voters will continue to decide who governs the UK and how Scotland is financed within that until we are an independent nation.

Agree with all of that.

[JimBHibees]

i'l try look them out, it won't be the next 10 mins, or even tonight,i'm in process of switching PC's the now and other things to do etc etc :greengrin if i come across them i'l refer back to this post, but i've read articles from German/Dutch/American publications, i watched a video of a French current affairs programme several months back explaining why Scotland would be a very financially secure country, some kind soul had translated to english(no NOT a jokey translation) i've watched an American "financial" TV talk show discuss the resources that Scotland has and just how rich an independent Scotland would be, the truth is out there, just not from the Scottish msm

I think there was a civil service paper in the 70s which was repressed which indicated Scotland could be the third wealthiest country in the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

[DaveF]

Got the electoral register letter today which means that my youngest is now added to the voter roll.

Another vote towards Independence (and no, she isn't brainwashed. Quite the opposite as she is very aware and mostly unwilling to take her Dad's advice 😂)

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210210/27067e74062844e53e03254a81327a2d.jpg
21 in a row.


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[1875godsgift]

In terms of natural resources Scotland is one of the richest nations on earth. Far richer than England per capita. The question for me is why a country with such resources is supposedly relying on handouts. In my view it would be atrocious management of those resources and the best, and only way to improve that is to completely change the management structure. I don't for a minute think Scotland would immediately flourish if we become Independent but as we are down the crapper after a Brexit vote that we didn't agree with we may as well make a start on our own recovery on our own terms. Independence for me is for a meaningful vote, a future where a fairer society is at least a possibility and and opportunity to let Scots decide what happens in Scotland rather than the rich sons of England.

I have never voted SNP up until now but they or the most prominent Independence Party will get my vote from now until we are independent. It is by far the most important political issue in my mind and everything else is of little interest until we are Independent. The English voters will continue to decide who governs the UK and how Scotland is financed within that until we are an independent nation.

:top marks

[lapsedhibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210210/27067e74062844e53e03254a81327a2d.jpg
21 in a row.


That's a bit of a swing to No though. 'Scotland cannae do its own rollout without the English army'/'Scottish Nationalist Party Government tearing itself apart' BS having an effect? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

That's a bit of a swing to No though. 'Scotland cannae do its own rollout without the English army'/'Scottish Nationalist Party Government tearing itself apart' BS having an effect? :dunno:

Hard to say. The polls bounce about a bit with Yes between 51-58% over the last few months. Depends if it starts regularly getting the lower figures.
The poll for May’s Holyrood election is still very strong for the SNP.
Infighting within the SNP will not be helping though. I think that the short term hit to making a move on Cherry and sidelining her will be worth it though. She is already showing herself not to be leadership material and this takes away a figureheads for the more radical types to pin their hopes on.


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[Mr Grieves]

Hard to say. The polls bounce about a bit with Yes between 51-58% over the last few months. Depends if it starts regularly getting the lower figures.
The poll for May’s Holyrood election is still very strong for the SNP.
Infighting within the SNP will not be helping though. I think that the short term hit to making a move on Cherry and sidelining her will be worth it though. She is already showing herself not to be leadership material and this takes away a figureheads for the more radical types to pin their hopes on.


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https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-backed-majority-snp-support-over-joanna-cherry-sacking-says-poll-3130975

Hopefully a wake up call for some. Time to stop the bitching on twitter and unite behind Sturgeon.

[Ozyhibby]

I see that the new way to report these polls is to not exclude the don’t knows, so as to be able to say support for Indy is below 50%. [emoji849]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210211/a3313a1433be24934f5600a9df95d8d1.jpg


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[Bostonhibby]

I see that the new way to report these polls is to not exclude the don’t knows, so as to be able to say support for Indy is below 50%. [emoji849]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210211/a3313a1433be24934f5600a9df95d8d1.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMichael Gove and Matt Hancock will be along in a minute to explain how they've counted every single don't know and how they are actually not yes votes but are definitely no votes.

Gove is in charge of lots of words spoken very quickly and Hancock pulls numbered balls out of a bag and quotes them as percentages.

They start at 95% and end at 110% so independence is doomed, with the all seeing Scotsman newspaper falling into line behind they should just call this referendum and get the victory they are expecting[emoji23]

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[lapsedhibee]

Michael Gove and Matt Hancock will be along in a minute to explain how they've counted every single don't know and how they are actually not yes votes but are definitely no votes.

Gove is in charge of lots of words spoken very quickly and Hancock pulls numbered balls out of a bag and quotes them as percentages.

They start at 95% and end at 110% so independence is doomed, with the all seeing Scotsman newspaper falling into line behind they should just call this referendum and get the victory they are expecting[emoji23]


It looks like Johnson's visit to Scotland has saved The Union after all. We'll just have to go back to being not only content with, but grateful for, our never ending colonial subsidy-junkie role again. It was a nice dream while it lasted.

[Bostonhibby]

It looks like Johnson's visit to Scotland has saved The Union after all. We'll just have to go back to being not only content with, but grateful for, our never ending colonial subsidy-junkie role again. It was a nice dream while it lasted.You misinterpret what he said, amidst all that mumbling, ermmming and rabble rousing what he was actually on about was saving the Onion, the good old Lincolnshire onion which will soon be one of the very few food items readily available to a grateful nation.

Job done, next week it's the renaming of the sprout.There will be a referendum on that.

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[lapsedhibee]

the good old Lincolnshire onion which will soon be one of the very few food items readily available


Would that make it, um, precious?

[Bostonhibby]

Would that make it, um, precious?Local onions for local people. Harvested by "foreigners" though[emoji6]

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[StevieC]

Local onions for local people.

And they’ll be happier onions for it.

[Bostonhibby]

And they’ll be happier onions for it.Get onions done

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[Berwickhibby]

Are they oven ready onions ?

[Bostonhibby]

Are they oven ready onions ?Full on post Brexit Onion Jack brand. Enough to bring tears of pride to Matt Hancock's eye.

At least I think it was pride he was trying to do.....

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[ronaldo7]

Bravo George Monbiot.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1359867075641167880

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2021/02/kingdom-fragments


The Holyrood election in May is the most significant in the more than 20-year history of devolution and among the most freighted democratic events of the nearly 314-year-old Union between Scotland and England. Current polls suggest the SNP will secure a majority, with a mandate for a second independence referendum, putting Scotland on a path to exit from the UK and creating the conditions for years of rancour and dispute between Edinburgh and London. The end of Britain, if it comes, looks like it will be less a velvet divorce and more a season finale of Dallas – messy and hysterical, a vicious and bitter fight for the spoils.

Unionists across the political parties share a pessimistic view of the odds. As yet – so late in the day – there is no strategy or leadership, no grip or vision. “This is a message for Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Rishi Sunak,” says Adam Tomkins, a Conservative MSP and law professor. “If we carry on like this, the country will split up. And we’re running out of time.”

Whether overwhelmed by Covid, distracted by Brexit, or simply weary of the restless natives north of the border, Westminster could lose Scotland through inattention and ennui as much as through the drive of the SNP. As the former Tory chancellor George Osborne wrote recently in the Evening Standard, the UK is on course to “become another historically interesting case study in how successful nations can perform unexpected acts of national suicide”.

[See also: Joanna Cherry’s Diary: Why I was sacked, coming out as gay in the Aids pandemic, and turmoil in the SNP]

But while the clock is ticking, it has not yet run out. There is still another possible outcome: that the independence movement fails to win a majority in May, which would mean no second referendum, the likely fall of Nicola Sturgeon, and independence potentially losing its central totemic power in Scottish politics for at least a generation. That, despite the current momentum, is not unthinkable. But it requires unionists to get their act together, and fast.

***

If Scotland’s future comes down to a straight fight between the SNP and Johnson’s Conservatives it would not be unwise to place your money on Sturgeon. The First Minister’s handling of the Covid emergency has led her popularity levels to soar, as Johnson’s have headed in the other direction. With Sturgeon empowered to make life-and-death decisions, shut down large parts of the economy and confine Scots to their homes – not to mention her televised daily press conferences – the pandemic has given the country a taste of autonomy that many voters have found to their liking.

In Johnson, meanwhile, the UK has a Prime Minister who, from a northern viewpoint, is a louche, entitled Old Etonian, a Brexiteer chancer with a rackety private life. He is driven by personal ambition rather than moral purpose and greedily embraces English nationalism when it suits his populist instincts. He could be hand-knitted to repulse Scots. “If we have to fight an independence referendum he is the worst possible PM,” says Ian Murray, Labour’s shadow Scottish secretary. And while Scotland is ostensibly part of Johnson’s demesne, another consequence of Covid has been that his remit has regularly run out at Carlisle. In many of the policy areas that have mattered over the past tortured year, he has been acting as Prime Minister of England only. “Covid has demonstrated a Union that doesn’t seem to recognise itself in the mirror,” says a Tory strategist.

This is not the whole truth, of course (we’ll come to the issue of economics later), but like Brexit, the heightened influence of the Tory right, the kowtowing to Donald Trump, and Labour’s extremist experiment, the timing and the personnel involved have undoubtedly made Scotland feel less comfortable being part of the UK.

As George Osborne put it, with some pleasure, no doubt: “How can Boris Johnson avoid this disaster – and ignoble title of the worst prime minister ever?”

As always, it’s essential to understand the numbers. There has been a consistent run of polls showing independence is now the preference of Scots, with support ranging from 51 to 58 per cent. This shift has mainly come from those who voted No in 2014 and Remain in 2016, and for whom Brexit feels like a deal-breaker.

But dig a little deeper and doubts remain. The pollster Mark Diffley of the Diffley Partnership says the key demographic is the 20 per cent of Scots who have yet to fully make up their minds – the “indy-curious” – and that the pro-independence side can’t be overly confident. “The polling tends to be quite binary, asking people whether they are Yes or No,” says Diffley. “If you ask the question in a different way, that 20 per cent tend to be a bit more on the fence. Some of them have definitely jumped ship from No to Yes, but not all. Others are waiting to see what impact Brexit will have and in the end may not follow through on their curiosity. It’s not the slam dunk it sometimes seems to be.”

***

In 2014 the Better Together campaign focused on the economic risks of independence and was consequently dubbed “Project Fear”. Scots were simply better off in the Union, it was argued: the UK was a safe harbour; oil revenues were diminishing fast; inward investment would collapse; the newly independent state would start out with a deficit of billions and also have to absorb a chunky share of existing British debt; the currency options were horrendous.

Leaving the UK would also mean leaving the EU and having to apply for re-entry – something the Spanish, facing their own Catalonian unrest, might look to frustrate. This would also erect a disastrous trading border with the rest of the UK, by some margin Scotland’s largest export market. Politicians and business leaders from around the world lined up to warn of the economic chill that awaited. The Queen and the governor of the Bank of England each wrinkled an eyebrow to make their concerns known. Vladimir Putin thought independence was a good idea.

It was enough to do the job, even if the 55-45 per cent split was closer than anyone had expected at the campaign’s outset. But that was then. While some of those arguments will still have traction in a second referendum, others won’t.

The most obvious and the most damaging change is EU membership. Having accepted the warnings about an enforced departure from Europe in 2014, many No voters saw the Brexit decision that followed just two years later as a betrayal. Scotland voted 62-38 to stay in the EU but a relatively narrow English majority for Leave won the day. This was driven in part by an English nationalism and a resurgent Tory right that had little echo north of the border; almost every senior politician in Scotland, of every stripe, had been in favour of Remain. Many Scots felt – and still feel – disenfranchised and ignored; that the balancing mechanisms enabling our cumbrous, asymmetric Union to operate had effectively broken.

Brexit allowed Sturgeon to reopen the case for independence earlier than expected, citing a “material change in circumstances” since 2014. While voters initially blanched at the prospect of returning to the polling booth so quickly, the chaotic Westminster politics of the following years – the radicalisation of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn, the arrival of Johnson as PM and the bungled handling of Covid – started to change minds. The polls began to move in favour of Yes.

[See also: Is the SNP about to implode?]

It was ironic that many of the warnings issued by business and politicians in 2014 were repeated in relation to Brexit in 2016. This time they fell flat, particularly with English voters. Instead, the principle of sovereignty, of taking back control, mattered more than economic well-being. Some of this spirit, as well as a degree of embarrassment, has since found its way into Scots’ view of independence. “Economic factors will clearly be crucial again,” says Diffley, the pollster, “but people are much more open-minded than they were before. The argument of a UK safety net that No campaigners used before doesn’t exist to the same extent. If independence campaigners can get to the point where the economic debate is a stalemate they’ll view that as a victory.”

On the unionist side – or, more accurately, sides – there is an acceptance that this time they are starting from behind, and that there is no easy or obvious strategy to draw Scotland back from the edge. The Conservatives, says a party insider, are split between “the considered, thoughtful ones who accept the SNP sometimes has a point about the way the UK is working and who want to tackle it, and those who just say no to the whole problem, who think all this can be blamed on the advent of devolution in 1999, and that the return of sovereignty to Westminster from the EU heralds a brave new dawn for Britain. Sadly, the latter seem to have the upper hand at the moment.”

***


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[Ozyhibby]

There seems to be a growing view at Westminster that, regardless of how Scots vote in May, Johnson should refuse to allow a second independence referendum. Legal permission remains in the gift of the British government, in the form of a Section 30 order that enables Holyrood to pass laws normally reserved to Westminster. But this would risk public outrage in Scotland, perhaps even civil unrest. The prospect of such a block led the SNP on 23 January to set out a plan B for securing independence in which the Scottish parliament would pass referendum legislation and challenge the British government to take it to court. This raises the unhappy spectre of the SNP staging a Catalonia-style wildcat referendum, which Sturgeon has previously spoken against.

The more convincing – and certainly more democratically justifiable – case for a block from Westminster is that it would be a delaying tactic, allowing unionist forces to muster ahead of an eventual referendum and in the hope that, in the meantime, events knock some of the shine off the SNP and the case for separation. The UK government believes its substantial economic support for Scotland through the furlough scheme and other emergency spending during the Covid crisis has been under-appreciated in Scotland. This case was made forcefully by Johnson on a 28 January trip to Glasgow, on which he said the UK had “pulled together to defeat the virus, providing £8.6bn to the Scottish government to support public services whilst also protecting the jobs of more than 930,000 citizens in Scotland”.

The EU Structural and Investment Funds will be replaced with a UK Shared Prosperity Fund, bypassing Holyrood and allowing Westminster to spend in devolved areas such as education and infrastructure. “It’s not enough for Boris to just say ‘no’,” says Tomkins, the Conservative MSP. “He has to say ‘no because…’; that, ‘We are going to show you over a period of time that you don’t need independence to achieve what you want to achieve.’ Not that independence is bad, but that it’s unnecessary.”

Not everyone thinks this is a smart move. “This is just stumbling on as we usually do,” says another Conservative. “A few hundred million there, a Union Jack there, but it’s no quick fix. And it’s divisive rather than unifying, designed only for the 25 per cent who are core No voters.”

There are Tories at Westminster who want a more comprehensive rethink. It’s understood that some around the Prime Minister are pushing for a Royal Commission that would examine the constitution of the UK as a whole and recommend reforms. “We have to look at why people are feeling angry, frustrated, disrespected and ignored,” says a source. “Brexit is done and we’re coming out of Covid now – this is a massive opportunity to look at the questions and flaws exposed by both. Not just in Scotland, but in Wales and Northern Ireland and in the English regions. Let’s do it properly.”

***

In 2014 the Conservatives worked alongside Labour in the Better Together campaign. That won’t happen again. The alliance particularly damaged Labour in Scotland, to the extent that in the 2015 general election it went from 41 Scottish seats to one, while the SNP won 56.

Keir Starmer has asked Gordon Brown to develop plans to devolve more power across the UK and to rejuvenate the party in Scotland. The departure of the ineffective Richard Leonard as Scottish leader will help in the medium to long term, but his replacement – the contest is between MSPs Anas Sarwar and Monica Lennon – will have little time to make an impact before May.

Labour, once dominant in Scotland, has lost its way. Both the SNP and the Conservatives have a straightforward and easy-to- understand position on Scottish independence. Labour – whose membership in Scotland is estimated to be split around 60-40 in favour of support for the Union – has walked something of a tightrope, and frequently fallen off. It has lost all its Scottish MEPs and all but one of its MPs. It is in a sorry third place at Holyrood, behind the Conservatives. Once the undisputed master of Scottish politics and the nation’s pressure valve within the Union, the party risks being little more than a ghost at the nationalist coronation.

Both in London and Edinburgh, there is hope that a distinctive new offer, which strategists are calling “radical federalism” (its meaning is still relatively vague), can become Labour’s fixed position. “You can’t solve the Scottish question without solving the English question,” says Ian Murray. “Look at how well Andy Burnham and the other mayors have done bringing power closer to the people. What Labour adds is the principle of redistribution, of solidarity. We will have our own proposal, which we want to see in our manifesto. This should stop people asking if we support independence or the status quo – the answer is ‘neither’.”

Sarwar is favourite to win the Labour leadership, and intends to harry the SNP over the timing of a referendum. A liked and respected moderate, and son of the former Labour MP Mohammad Sarwar, he fell out of favour during Leonard’s reign. The next five years at Holyrood, he will argue, should be a “Covid recovery” parliament, focused on lost jobs, the economy, education and healthcare. “Nobody is saying ‘not ever’ to a second referendum,” insists Murray. “Even Alister Jack [the Scottish Secretary] says 40 years. Just definitely ‘not now’.”

There are still significant strengths to the unionist case. The economic challenges of Scottish independence have not gone away – not least a deficit estimated in the Scottish government’s figures to be £15bn, or 8.6 per cent of its GDP, for 2019-20. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned that Covid spending could drive that figure up to 26-28 per cent of GDP in the next few years, and that it will still be at elevated levels in 2024-25. Further, Brexit means that, in rejoining the EU, an independent Scotland would face a trade border with England and the rest of the UK. Currently, 60 per cent of Scotland’s exports go to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, with the EU accounting for 19 per cent and non-EU countries for 21 per cent. Would freedom of movement and a return to the European family be worth the potential economic hit?

Questions about currency, and how re-denomination might impact personal finances such as mortgages, pensions and savings, have yet to be convincingly answered by the SNP. When a referendum campaign arrives and the economic case is so starkly put, No may yet carry a winning weight.

[See also: Scottish independence poll tracker: will Scotland vote to leave the UK?]

The second advantage to unionists is that the wheels are coming off the SNP’s once formidable leadership. The closer the nationalists get to their goal, the more their inner tensions are exposed. There is now a substantial minority of the SNP that wants to see Sturgeon, arguably the UK’s most popular politician, deposed. This grouping is sympathetic to her predecessor Alex Salmond, and accuses the First Minister and her allies of conspiring to help bring Salmond to court on charges of sexual assault, of which he was cleared on 23 March last year.

The rebels have secured a number of places on the SNP’s National Executive Committee, and Joanna Cherry, the formidable MP and QC, is pushing for the party to adopt a more aggressive approach to securing independence. (Cherry was sacked from her post as home affairs spokesperson on 1 February.) There is also unhappiness at the way Sturgeon runs her government, through a clique that includes her husband, Peter Murrell, the SNP chief executive.

While this infighting seems not to have affected voting intentions so far, Salmond’s pursuit of the party leadership could yet have an impact. He accuses Sturgeon of misleading parliament about the accusations against him, which if proved could force her resignation for breaking the ministerial code. Even if she remains in post, the scandal could undermine public trust in her probity. The interim Scottish Labour leader, Jackie Baillie, has urged the Crown Office to examine whether Murrell committed perjury during his evidence session.

The people around the cabinet table in Downing Street have to better understand the Britain they are seeking to govern, as do their advisers and the civil service,” says Adam Tomkins. “The UK is now more about the four nations than it has been before. For Scots under 40, the British state seems practically irrelevant. They don’t know what the added value of the Union is.”

Whether it’s directly elected mayors in Manchester and Liverpool, growing self-confidence in the Welsh nationalist movement, or Northern Ireland flashing an ankle at the prospect of reunification with the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom has changed fundamentally. The Covid pandemic has accelerated the change. There is no going back to the centralised ways of old, and those at the centre who want to save the Union must start listening rather than lecturing. It may already be too late, of course, but if the UK is to be saved, it can only be done as a union of willing volunteers, not miserable conscripts.


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[lord bunberry]

Bravo George Monbiot.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1359867075641167880
Excellent stuff.

[Ozyhibby]

Excellent stuff.

In the last Indy ref there was near universal support for the union from England. I think next time there will be a significant amount of people in England saying we should go for it (former remainers etc) and another significant amount of English nationalists telling us to F off.


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[lord bunberry]

In the last Indy ref there was near universal support for the union from England. I think next time there will be a significant amount of people in England saying we should go for it (former remainers etc) and another significant amount of English nationalists telling us to F off.


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That’s already happening, I’ve seen loads of it in the last year.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1359931832574304259?s=21


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[Mr Grieves]

The Conservatives, says a party insider, are split between “the considered, thoughtful ones who accept the SNP sometimes has a point about the way the UK is working and who want to tackle it, and those who just say no to the whole problem, who think all this can be blamed on the advent of devolution in 1999, and that the return of sovereignty to Westminster from the EU heralds a brave new dawn for Britain. Sadly, the latter seem to have the upper hand at the moment.”

Interesting paragraph that...

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1359931832574304259?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe old 'family of nations' again [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

So he's saying even in a whitewash for the SNP, his party stand steadfast to deny the folk he's meant to serve the right to have a say about their future (in which is implicty front in centre policy for the party that just won the election)

Interesting concept.

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[ronaldo7]

Scotland...Look what you could have had. It's still there if you have the kahoonas to dump the Eton Elites and their acolytes.

https://twitter.com/IrlEmbParis/status/1359881207912296459

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland...Look what you could have had. It's still there if you have the kahoonas to dump the Eton Elites and their acolytes.

https://twitter.com/IrlEmbParis/status/1359881207912296459

I don’t think there is a single sailing between Scotland and Europe now.


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[Jack]

I suspect everyone else is getting "UK Government Scotland" ads on their Facebook pages.

I noticed it with a Covid-19 advert but their have been other subjects. Thing about the Covid-19 ones is the Scottish Government is responsible for the policy around this in Scotland. Are they taking out similar advertising in Wales and NI?

[Smartie]

I suspect everyone else is getting "UK Government Scotland" ads on their Facebook pages.

I noticed it with a Covid-19 advert but their have been other subjects. Thing about the Covid-19 ones is the Scottish Government is responsible for the policy around this in Scotland. Are they taking out similar advertising in Wales and NI?

The one that I've been getting loads and it's driving me up the wall is Nigel Farage on YouTube.

WTF have I been looking at to merit that?

It really annoys me.

[Hibrandenburg]

In the last Indy ref there was near universal support for the union from England. I think next time there will be a significant amount of people in England saying we should go for it (former remainers etc) and another significant amount of English nationalists telling us to F off.


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Good point. There's always been a certain amount of both but on the back of Brexit they will have increased in numbers.

[CropleyWasGod]

The one that I've been getting loads and it's driving me up the wall is Nigel Farage on YouTube.

WTF have I been looking at to merit that?

It really annoys me.

We both must have been ***** recently. I'm getting the same 😂

[CloudSquall]

Does everyone in the NE sound like Andrew Bowie and Douglas Ross or is that accent a requirement to be at the top of the Scottish Tories?


They are giving Michael Gove a run for his money in the "put on accent" championships.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i like listening to Gordon Ross on fb(Indie-car) and i'm glad he has resigned from the pop-up indy party ISP, that silly anti-snp pro-cherry 30-second video they put up last week has lost them quite a bit of support the last few days, even though they pulled it pretty quickly whoever thought it was a good idea to post it needs to take a break for now.

[Mr Grieves]

Does everyone in the NE sound like Andrew Bowie and Douglas Ross or is that accent a requirement to be at the top of the Scottish Tories?


They are giving Michael Gove a run for his money in the "put on accent" championships.

I have inlaws from Aberdeenshire and I can confirm they sound nothing like Bowie. TBH they sound like nothing else from this universe.

[allmodcons]

I have inlaws from Aberdeenshire and I can confirm they sound nothing like Bowie. TBH they sound like nothing else from this universe.

Fits yer problem loon?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

That’s already happening, I’ve seen loads of it in the last year.

English attitudes have definitely hardened on the right and in the working classes, this will be reflected on the Tory backbenches where there are already some murmurs of "go, just go".

The London centric luvvies who pleaded for us to stay with nauseating statements in 2014 will not do that again as being nearly all remainers, would see the hypocrisy were they to repeat it.

[degenerated]

English attitudes have definitely hardened on the right and in the working classes, this will be reflected on the Tory backbenches where there are already some murmurs of "go, just go".

The London centric luvvies who pleaded for us to stay with nauseating statements in 2014 will not do that again as being nearly all remainers, would see the hypocrisy were they to repeat it.I'm pretty sure that the London centric luvvies will do just the same thing again. Eddie Izzard is still voicing his opinion and Geldof won't be far behind.

Al Murray might even dust down his joke and do something too.

[Bostonhibby]

The one that I've been getting loads and it's driving me up the wall is Nigel Farage on YouTube.

WTF have I been looking at to merit that?

It really annoys me.I've seen that, have you tried threatening to punch him?

Doesn't make any difference but it's enormously gratifying.

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[ACLeith]

Does everyone in the NE sound like Andrew Bowie and Douglas Ross or is that accent a requirement to be at the top of the Scottish Tories?


They are giving Michael Gove a run for his money in the "put on accent" championships.
Bowie born in Arbroath but when he got elected he lived in Leith. No idea why as he doesn’t seem to have ever had a job in the area. I think he relocated to NE, hopefully has no current Leith ties to come back for after losing his seat. (I know Leith likes to think of itself as an open, welcoming community but there are limits!)

[degenerated]

Bowie born in Arbroath but when he got elected he lived in Leith. No idea why as he doesn’t seem to have ever had a job in the area. I think he relocated to NE, hopefully has no current Leith ties to come back for after losing his seat. (I know Leith likes to think of itself as an open, welcoming community but there are limits!)I'd be surprised if he managed to find his way back there. I'm pretty sure he was emptied by the Royal navy for failing his navigation exam.

[ACLeith]

I'd be surprised if he managed to find his way back there. I'm pretty sure he was emptied by the Royal navy for failing his navigation exam.

That sounds about right, he wouldn’t have Johnston back then telling him which way to face and U-turn

[One Day Soon]

Gets right on yer tits when London based luvvies tell Scotland what to do eh? I mean what has it got to do with them.

Good evening Mr Monbiot, drool, salivate, swoon...:faf:

[lord bunberry]

Gets right on yer tits when London based luvvies tell Scotland what to do eh? I mean what has it got to do with them.

Good evening Mr Monbiot, drool, salivate, swoon...:faf:
Has anyone said what the spectator has done is getting on their tits or is telling us what to do? I think most people would like to hear what Salmond has to say.

[Killiehibbie]

I'd be surprised if he managed to find his way back there. I'm pretty sure he was emptied by the Royal navy for failing his navigation exam.

Fail in the real job and jump on the gravy train. How many of these poor politicians does a country need

[Peevemor]

Gets right on yer tits when London based luvvies tell Scotland what to do eh? I mean what has it got to do with them.

Good evening Mr Monbiot, drool, salivate, swoon...:faf:

A bit like some who have started using Joanna Cherry as a reference all of a sudden.

[Ozyhibby]

Has anyone said what the spectator has done is getting on their tits or is telling us what to do? I think most people would like to hear what Salmond has to say.

Absolutely want to hear what Salmond has to say. I don’t think he has anything that can harm NS and if he can make it look like he’s been silenced that probably does more (still hardly any) damage. Let’s get it over with as we have important elections coming up.


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[Ozyhibby]

A bit like some who have started using Joanna Cherry as a reference all of a sudden.

Or Alex Salmond. Or Jim Sillars. Kenny McAskill. [emoji849]


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[lord bunberry]

Absolutely want to hear what Salmond has to say. I don’t think he has anything that can harm NS and if he can make it look like he’s been silenced that probably does more (still hardly any) damage. Let’s get it over with as we have important elections coming up.


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I agree. The fact that he’s been stalling so long is an indication that he’s got very little new information.

[One Day Soon]

Has anyone said what the spectator has done is getting on their tits or is telling us what to do? I think most people would like to hear what Salmond has to say.


Well there's this from lapsedhibee over on the actual Salmond thread which certainly implies that they're sticking their oar into the issue in an unwelcome way...

https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/xquote_icon.png.pagespeed.ic.zL2eHrxtTV.webp Originally Posted by G B Young https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/xviewpost-right.png.pagespeed.ic.pNbtOjy3kK.webp (https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=6463489#post6463489)
Why The Spectator went to court | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-the-spectator-went-to-court)



"We take no sides" :faf: Course not. Purely done in the interests of holding govt to account, just as The Spectator does so assiduously at Westminster.

[One Day Soon]

A bit like some who have started using Joanna Cherry as a reference all of a sudden.


Not quite sure the Cherry scenario is directly comparable with that of 'London baaaad, except when London agrees with us'. I can understand why nationalists would find having Cherry quoted at them very irritating though.

[Peevemor]

Not quite sure the Cherry scenario is directly comparable with that of 'London baaaad, except when London agrees with us'. I can understand why nationalists would find having Cherry quoted at them very irritating though.

Just pointing out that both sides are guilty of cherry picking (no pun intended) their sources if it makes for a good quote.

[One Day Soon]

Or Alex Salmond. Or Jim Sillars. Kenny McAskill. [emoji849]


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Are they undercover unionists? What would make these people - and Cherry and Angus MacNeil MP and Cllr Christopher McEleny and many others kick-off now? It's certainly not randomly spontaneous, so what is it?

[ronaldo7]

Gets right on yer tits when London based luvvies tell Scotland what to do eh? I mean what has it got to do with them.

Good evening Mr Monbiot, drool, salivate, swoon...:faf:

Aye, you would have hated that berating of the Tories eh. 😂😂

[lord bunberry]

Well there's this from lapsedhibee over on the actual Salmond thread which certainly implies that they're sticking their oar into the issue in an unwelcome way...

https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/xquote_icon.png.pagespeed.ic.zL2eHrxtTV.webp Originally Posted by G B Young https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/xviewpost-right.png.pagespeed.ic.pNbtOjy3kK.webp (https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=6463489#post6463489)
Why The Spectator went to court | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-the-spectator-went-to-court)



"We take no sides" :faf: Course not. Purely done in the interests of holding govt to account, just as The Spectator does so assiduously at Westminster.
I didn’t read it like that, I read it as a publication trying to come over as being impartial and moral. It is laughable, they’re doing what all publications do, playing to their readership to sell more copies.

[Ozyhibby]

Are they undercover unionists? What would make these people - and Cherry and Angus MacNeil MP and Cllr Christopher McEleny and many others kick-off now? It's certainly not randomly spontaneous, so what is it?

Apart from Salmond they are not exactly premier league political operators. All parties have an awkward squad.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1360211870456696837?s=21

Andrew Neil attack the SNP in this ‘interview’ harder than Ross. The level of inaccuracies is of the scale as well.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.economist.com/britain/2021/02/13/migration-between-england-scotland-and-northern-ireland-is-falling?__twitter_impression=true

Hopefully not behind the paywall.

In the early 1990s Tennent, a Scottish brewer, ran a television advert designed to play on the homesickness of migrant workers in London. A Scottish office drone, yearning for the pubs of his homeland, endures crowded Tube trains, argumentative Cockneys and foreigners as the song “Caledonia” plays in the background.

Listen to this story

Enjoy more audio and podcasts on iOS or Android.

Many young Scots at the time emigrated to the rest of the United Kingdom in search of work or excitement. “I was desperate to travel to London,” remembers Melanie Hill, who graduated from Strathclyde University in 1993 and now works for ScottishPower, an energy company. In 1987, the peak year of emigration, 65,000 people—one in every 78 Scots—left for England, Northern Ireland or Wales. But the flow has slowed, as have the other streams that carry people between the four nations.


Unlike America, Britain has not experienced an overall decline in internal migration. Before covid-19 struck, movement between most of the uk’s 12 regions (nine of which are English) was growing, as the economy and the housing market recovered from the financial crisis. Two exceptions stick out, however. Northern Ireland and Scotland, which anyway send the smallest proportions of their residents to other parts of Britain, are holding onto even more of them (see chart). In 2018-19 Scotland lost just one in 146 people.


Patterns of study have a lot to do with this. In the 1994-95 academic year 6.2% of Scots studying full-time for a first degree attended English universities, and 2.8% of English students were in Scotland. In 2019-20 the proportions had fallen to 4.4% and 1.6%. The proportion of Northern Irish students studying in Scotland has dropped even more sharply, from 14.5% to 8.1%.

Jim Shannon, a Democratic Unionist Party mp, suggests that some Northern Irish people might have been put off by Scotland’s burgeoning independence movement; nobody is hotter for the union than an Ulster Protestant. But the widening gap in tuition fees is probably more important. Northern Irish students pay £4,395 ($6,062) a year to study in their own country, while Scots generally pay nothing if they stay in Scotland. Both are liable for £9,250 a year if they study elsewhere. The demographic effect in Scotland was not an accident: the Scottish National Party cut tuition fees partly in order to discourage students from leaving.

After graduating, Scots have good reasons to hang around. Charlie Ball of Jisc, an education outfit, points out that the cull of civil servants after the financial crisis was milder in Scotland than in England or Wales, so there are more secure jobs. Glasgow, which used to send many people to England, has become a confident, successful city. Linda Murdoch, who runs the University of Glasgow careers service, says it is quite hard to persuade graduates even to go to Edinburgh.

If young Britons are less likely to cross the kingdom’s internal borders to study, they are also less likely to meet people from the other countries, fall in love with them, and have children with them. Since 1997 the proportion of Northern Irish babies born to a mother from England, Scotland or Wales has fallen from 7.3% to 4.8%. There has been a smaller decline in Scotland over the past decade.

Britons are also less likely to take trips to other bits of the kingdom. According to Visit Britain, which organises large surveys, English people accounted for 57% of all British tourist trips to Scotland in 2011, measured by number of nights. Since then Scots have toured their own country more and the English have made fewer trips there; in 2019 English people accounted for 50% of the total. Scotland is just as beautiful as it always was. But people often travel to see friends and attend weddings. If they know fewer people in another country from university or work, they have less reason to go.


If England, Northern Ireland and Scotland are all becoming more insular, Wales has the opposite problem—a brain drain. Dawn Bowden, who represents Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney in the Senedd, says that young people in her constituency who do well at school want to spread their wings. Welsh students pay roughly the same fees everywhere, and get a bigger maintenance grant if they study in London. Over the past few years the number of Welsh teenagers who apply to study in Wales has fallen.

Meanwhile, Ms Bowden says, South Wales has seen an influx of English workers who commute to jobs in Bristol—something that may have increased since 2018, when tolls to cross the Severn river were abolished. She is relaxed about this cross-border traffic. South Wales and the west of England have a long history of migration to and fro, she says. Besides, she also moved to Wales from Bristol.

In one way, the growing insularity of Northern Ireland and Scotland is a good sign. It reflects the success of their major cities, which ought to recover when Britain gets on top of covid-19. But it might hurt them in the end. Scotland in particular is about to experience a nasty demographic crunch: the country has 382,000 25- to 29-year-olds but only 282,000 15- to 19-year-olds. Westminster will not allow Edinburgh to run its own immigration policy. It might have cut itself off from the rest of the United Kingdom just as it would most benefit from a bit of ebb and flow.

The lack of mixing is also a bad omen for the United Kingdom. Many English are already ambivalent about the union—a recent poll for the Sunday Times found less than half would mind if Scotland left, and less than a third would be upset by Irish reunification. The more the nations grow apart, the less they are likely to care. ■




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[degenerated]

Boris's union unit to triple in size to combat the SNP and fight the will of the Scottish People.

Interesting quote from senior government adviser comparing the situation to that faced by the US in Vietnam [emoji1787]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2898007/uk-government-union/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[lapsedhibee]

Boris's union unit to triple in size to combat the SNP and fight the will of the Scottish People.

Interesting quote from senior government adviser comparing the situation to that faced by the US in Vietnam [emoji1787]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2898007/uk-government-union/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Tunnels under old Edinburgh going to prove handy, and the clockwork orange network could be requisitioned. Where can we buy napalm repellant though? :dunno:

UKGov gets more ridiculous by the week.

[degenerated]

Tunnels under old Edinburgh going to prove handy, and the clockwork orange network could be requisitioned. Where can we buy napalm repellant though? :dunno:

UKGov gets more ridiculous by the week.I'm going to start selling coolie hats with a built in ginger wig, this time next year I'll be a millionaire. Viet McCong

[Jack]

Boris's union unit to triple in size to combat the SNP and fight the will of the Scottish People.

Interesting quote from senior government adviser comparing the situation to that faced by the US in Vietnam [emoji1787]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/2898007/uk-government-union/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

I'm surprised setting up a unit like this legal, although I'm not sure the torys would give a toss. Can you imagine the furore if their was an Independence Unit in St Andrews House?

The UK government can use its unlimited funds to 'combat' in a campaign where the independence group are limited by their own finances and probably Electoral Commission rules.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”
(The United Nations)

I'd also suggest it explicitly contravenes the bit that states "all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference".

If only there was someone in the SNP who had a penchant for taking the UK government to court!

[degenerated]

I'm surprised setting up a unit like this legal, although I'm not sure the torys would give a toss. Can you imagine the furore if their was an Independence Unit in St Andrews House?

The UK government can use its unlimited funds to 'combat' in a campaign where the independence are limited by their own finances and probably Electoral Commission rules.

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”
(The United Nations)

I'd also suggest it explicitly contravenes the bit that states "all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference".

If only there was someone in the SNP who had a penchant for taking the UK government to court!I would have thought they should be focusing on dealing with the pandemic rather than continually focusing on the constitutional debate.

[Ozyhibby]

There is an awful lot of preparation going into fighting an independence referendum that is not going to happen?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Tunnels under old Edinburgh going to prove handy, and the clockwork orange network could be requisitioned. Where can we buy napalm repellant though? :dunno:

UKGov gets more ridiculous by the week.

Bit of a cockup by them when we have all the nukes

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210213/40b439df0661c839dcb9e6d9bf63f05b.jpg
Supplementary questions on trust released with the latest Scotsman poll. Constant unionist attacks in the media not cutting through with what people see in their every day lives.


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[Curried]

i like listening to Gordon Ross on fb(Indie-car) and i'm glad he has resigned from the pop-up indy party ISP, that silly anti-snp pro-cherry 30-second video they put up last week has lost them quite a bit of support the last few days, even though they pulled it pretty quickly whoever thought it was a good idea to post it needs to take a break for now.

Me too. I'm not on friendface so generally search for his latest posts on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl7VIuQTnRI

[Callum_62]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1396978/nicola-sturgeon-news-snp-scottish-independence-indyref2-george-galloway-jim-sillars

Oh well,. Games a bogey

Fully expect Douglas Ross to become FM in May

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[CloudSquall]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1396978/nicola-sturgeon-news-snp-scottish-independence-indyref2-george-galloway-jim-sillars

Oh well,. Games a bogey

Fully expect Douglas Ross to become FM in May

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"Nicola Sturgeon has been warned by arch-rival George Galloway"Arch-rival :faf: :faf: :faf:

[Jack]

"Nicola Sturgeon has been warned by arch-rival George Galloway"Arch-rival :faf: :faf: :faf:

Between him and Nigel Ferengi it looks like the unionistas are getting their ducks lined up early!

[DaveF]

"Nicola Sturgeon has been warned by arch-rival George Galloway"Arch-rival :faf: :faf: :faf:

Galloway has no rival when it comes to looking like a total arse in a hat.

[Skol]

I would have thought they should be focusing on dealing with the pandemic rather than continually focusing on the constitutional debate.

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day job

[CloudSquall]

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day job


And what if they believe the best way to carry out the day job is with independence?

[Moulin Yarns]

Galloway has no rival when it comes to looking like a total arse in a hat.

I always thought that he was the cat in the hat😉

[The Modfather]

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day job

How come we ploughed ahead over the cliff last year with Brexit in the middle of a pandemic but the SNP should “ get on with the day job”?

[Moulin Yarns]

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day job

That's just what the government has been doing, getting the infection rate down, unfortunately the UK government are less keen on stopping it from coming into the UK from abroad.

[Skol]

And what if they believe the best way to carry out the day job is with independence?

quite frankly that would be astonishing if they neglect what they have been elected to do in order to pursue independence....but actually we shouldnt really be astonished

[Skol]

How come we ploughed ahead over the cliff last year with Brexit in the middle of a pandemic but the SNP should “ get on with the day job”?

Two wrongs dont make it the right thing to do

[Skol]

That's just what the government has been doing, getting the infection rate down, unfortunately the UK government are less keen on stopping it from coming into the UK from abroad.

they found time for an 11 point plan for independence though.....

[cabbageandribs1875]

lol my goodness, how dare they :panic:

[StevieC]

they found time for an 11 point plan for independence though.....

I’d heard they did that in their spare time though, so it’s okay.

[lapsedhibee]

I wish they would get on with the day job

If you just repeat that every day for about six months in reply to whatever anyone says to you, you might end up Baroness Skol.

[Jack]

they found time for an 11 point plan for independence though.....

That was the SNP Party not the SNP Government.

[Stairway 2 7]

I always thought that he was the cat in the hat😉

Please don't it gives me the creeps, would you like me to be the cat

[Smartie]

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day job

What specifically do you think they neglected to do and could/ should have done better re the day job when they were making plans for independence?

Do you have any issues with the Tories diverting resource towards a “Union unit” in the current climate?

For the record, I have no issue with either doing either.

[Ozyhibby]

What specifically do you think they neglected to do and could/ should have done better re the day job when they were making plans for independence?

Do you have any issues with the Tories diverting resource towards a “Union unit” in the current climate?

For the record, I have no issue with either doing either.

Are the SG allowed to use tax payers money to set up an independence unit?


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[The Modfather]

What specifically do you think they neglected to do and could/ should have done better re the day job when they were making plans for independence?

Do you have any issues with the Tories diverting resource towards a “Union unit” in the current climate?

For the record, I have no issue with either doing either.

Skol may come back with the specifics he’s talking about in relation to the day job, but I suspect what he really means is he wishes independence would just go away.

[Prof. Shaggy]

That's just what the government has been doing, getting the infection rate down, unfortunately the UK government are less keen on stopping it from coming into the UK from abroad.

If the Scottish government are to be credited with getting the infection rate down, can we assume they're not to blame for it being so high in the first place?

[Ozyhibby]

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boris-burrow-tunnel-to-northern-ireland-expected-to-get-green-light-40088593.html

Wasn’t sure what thread to put this in but as it’s all about saving the union I put it here.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-scotland-ireland-bridge-tunnel-a9382971.html?__twitter_impression=true

More on our new tunnel.


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[degenerated]

Thats one of the things that annoy me about the SNP. I wish they would get on with the day jobThe SNP spend a fraction of the time that the unionist parties spend talking about the constitution.

[RyeSloan]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-scotland-ireland-bridge-tunnel-a9382971.html?__twitter_impression=true

More on our new tunnel.


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What a weird article.

I actually quite like the idea of a high speed rail tunnel....it could ultimately link Dublin to Belfast to Glasgow to Edinburgh to the HS2 and many of the major cities in England. All the way to London.

That would be pretty cool. Imagine being able to get on a high speed train in Edinburgh and travel to Dublin or Belfast or London.

Quite why a tunnel from London to Paris is seen as totally normal yet a tunnel connecting Scotland to Ireland gets the treatment you have linked to is slightly beyond me I must admit.

[lapsedhibee]

What a weird article.

I actually quite like the idea of a high speed rail tunnel....it could ultimately link Dublin to Belfast to Glasgow to Edinburgh to the HS2 and many of the major cities in England. All the way to London.

That would be pretty cool. Imagine being able to get on a high speed train in Edinburgh and travel to Dublin or Belfast or London.

Quite why a tunnel from London to Paris is seen as totally normal yet a tunnel connecting Scotland to Ireland gets the treatment you have linked to is slightly beyond me I must admit.

Thought the article was more about Johnson's lying than about tunnels.

[RyeSloan]

Thought the article was more about Johnson's lying than about tunnels.

Yeah I get that it was a meandering ridiculing of Boris as well but I’m curious as to why Scotland would not want a link with Ireland...while a bridge would clearly not work the concept of a link / tunnel seems something well worth exploring to me.

Yet there seems to be a almost fanatical dismissal of it by the SNP,
which again I find odd as the likes of Norway and Denmark (the usual bastions of comparisons for how our Indy path would look like) are really quite big on exactly this type of connectivity with their neighbours.

Anyway that’s my Sunday musings over...maybe I’m just drawn to large infrastructure projects like a big kid! [emoji23]

As well as admitting that these are one of the few things I think governments are actually required for.

Using this tunnel as a catalyst for linking Ireland, Scotland and England with a high speed rail network is something that I might actually even vote for!

[Just Alf]

What a weird article.

I actually quite like the idea of a high speed rail tunnel....it could ultimately link Dublin to Belfast to Glasgow to Edinburgh to the HS2 and many of the major cities in England. All the way to London.

That would be pretty cool. Imagine being able to get on a high speed train in Edinburgh and travel to Dublin or Belfast or London.

Quite why a tunnel from London to Paris is seen as totally normal yet a tunnel connecting Scotland to Ireland gets the treatment you have linked to is slightly beyond me I must admit.It's sort of how they 'sold' the channel tunnel.... all that money ploughed in would benefit the whole country, jump on a train in Edinburgh or Glasgow and get off in Paris, they even bought the land for the Scottish hub station... now euro central freight park.
Now we'll have Paris - London, London - the North (hs2) and Scotland - something, and none of it seemingly smoothly interlinked. :-(

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[Ozyhibby]

Yeah I get that it was a meandering ridiculing of Boris as well but I’m curious as to why Scotland would not want a link with Ireland...while a bridge would clearly not work the concept of a link / tunnel seems something well worth exploring to me.

Yet there seems to be a almost fanatical dismissal of it by the SNP,
which again I find odd as the likes of Norway and Denmark (the usual bastions of comparisons for how our Indy path would look like) are really quite big on exactly this type of connectivity with their neighbours.

Anyway that’s my Sunday musings over...maybe I’m just drawn to large infrastructure projects like a big kid! [emoji23]

As well as admitting that these are one of the few things I think governments are actually required for.

Using this tunnel as a catalyst for linking Ireland, Scotland and England with a high speed rail network is something that I might actually even vote for!

I would love a Bridge or tunnel to Ireland. Think it’s a great idea. Whether we have to technical ability to match the ambition is another thing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/d6580e6af24bcc34b744e0c5d9981ae5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/4b6ab8770a59c2f5288f5bcc71ce7018.jpg


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[Just Alf]

Yeah I get that it was a meandering ridiculing of Boris as well but I’m curious as to why Scotland would not want a link with Ireland...while a bridge would clearly not work the concept of a link / tunnel seems something well worth exploring to me.

Yet there seems to be a almost fanatical dismissal of it by the SNP,
which again I find odd as the likes of Norway and Denmark (the usual bastions of comparisons for how our Indy path would look like) are really quite big on exactly this type of connectivity with their neighbours.

Anyway that’s my Sunday musings over...maybe I’m just drawn to large infrastructure projects like a big kid! [emoji23]

As well as admitting that these are one of the few things I think governments are actually required for.

Using this tunnel as a catalyst for linking Ireland, Scotland and England with a high speed rail network is something that I might actually even vote for!Re the last few paragraphs, I agree... while expensive just now, ultimately trains will need to take over from planes as electric power becomes the main way to travel.

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[Stairway 2 7]

I would love a Bridge or tunnel to Ireland. Think it’s a great idea. Whether we have to technical ability to match the ambition is another thing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/d6580e6af24bcc34b744e0c5d9981ae5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/4b6ab8770a59c2f5288f5bcc71ce7018.jpg


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Wonder what depth where tunnel would go

[Just Alf]

Wonder what depth where tunnel would goI read there was talk of the tunnel 'floating' at the deepest sections.. would need to be strong to survive passing subs or the odd sinking ship!

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[lucky]

The SNP spend a fraction of the time that the unionist parties spend talking about the constitution.

That’s absolute rubbish. The whole point of the SNP existence is constitutional change and as such they clearly spend the most time talking about constitutional change. If they aren’t talking about change and their plans to deliver it what’s the point of them?

[Stairway 2 7]

I resd there was talk of the tunnel 'floating' at the deepest sections.. would need to be strong to survive passing subs or the odd sinking ship!

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Sure I read its fairly deep but suppose floating section would change that. You would assume its possible but bit of a shame that the only time its been given serious thought is because brexit disaster

[Ozyhibby]

I read there was talk of the tunnel 'floating' at the deepest sections.. would need to be strong to survive passing subs or the odd sinking ship!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I know they can have floating tunnels but can you have a mixture? Would think it would need to be one or the other?


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[Moulin Yarns]

What a weird article.

I actually quite like the idea of a high speed rail tunnel....it could ultimately link Dublin to Belfast to Glasgow to Edinburgh to the HS2 and many of the major cities in England. All the way to London.

That would be pretty cool. Imagine being able to get on a high speed train in Edinburgh and travel to Dublin or Belfast or London.

Quite why a tunnel from London to Paris is seen as totally normal yet a tunnel connecting Scotland to Ireland gets the treatment you have linked to is slightly beyond me I must admit.

You mean hs2 that stops at Leeds?!

[Keith_M]

I know they can have floating tunnels but can you have a mixture? Would think it would need to be one or the other?


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Quite obviously you can't.

They need to make up their minds if it's going to be a tunnel type device floating just below the surface, a bridge (with 400m+ towers) or a tunnel (by far the deepest in the world).... and tell us what the plans are for dealing with the munitions on the sea bed.

The whole point of the article is not really the practicality or the desirability of any of these, it's that the Government have no intention whatsoever of building it.

For the Scotland-NI Bridge/Tunnel, you can pretty much assign it the same level of credibility as the promise to look into the notion of a Federal UK, or Devo-Max (still waiting for that one, Mr Brown)

[Keith_M]

Here's the two routes originally considered for a bridge (I hasten to add, not by the government, but by other interested parties).

24350



The Northern Route is clearly the shortest distance (25km), but would require the creation of a fairly expensive road network to get people from Glasgow across the lakes and hills then down the whole length of the Mull of Kintyre.

I'm sure that would be welcomed by environmentalists.


As for the Southern Route, that would mean creating a bridge/tunnel 45km long.

The world's longest bridge is in China, is 55km long and the deepest point it crosses is 100m deep, whereas the proposed Southern Crossing is between 100-200m deep, and the tides and waves are much more treacherous.


There's also this...

"However, concerns have been raised that the southern route crosses Beaufort’s Dyke, a natural trench that is 200-300 metres deep, 35km long and 3.5km wide.

The trench has been used as a dump site for conventional and chemical munitions since the early 20th century. It is thought to have been used to dispose of more than a million tonnes of weapons, as well as several tonnes of nuclear waste."
The Conversation (https://theconversation.com/scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-how-to-make-it-a-reality-131577)

[Ozyhibby]

Here's the two routes originally considered for a bridge (I hasten to add, not by the government, but by other interested parties).

24350



The Northern Route is clearly the shortest distance (25km), but would require the creation of a fairly expensive road network to get people from Glasgow across the lakes and hills then down the whole length of the Mull of Kintyre.

I'm sure that would be welcomed by environmentalists.


As for the Southern Route, that would mean creating a bridge/tunnel 45km long.

The world's longest bridge is in China, is 55km long and the deepest point it crosses is 100m deep, whereas the proposed Southern Crossing is between 100-200m deep, and the tides and waves are much more treacherous.


There's also this...

"However, concerns have been raised that the southern route crosses Beaufort’s Dyke, a natural trench that is 200-300 metres deep, 35km long and 3.5km wide.

The trench has been used as a dump site for conventional and chemical munitions since the early 20th century. It is thought to have been used to dispose of more than a million tonnes of weapons, as well as several tonnes of nuclear waste."
The Conversation (https://theconversation.com/scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-how-to-make-it-a-reality-131577)

Could the northern route not be done in three crossings using Arran? It’s also only 12.5km, not 25km. And no munitions dykes in the way.


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[RyeSloan]

Here's the two routes originally considered for a bridge (I hasten to add, not by the government, but by other interested parties).

24350



The Northern Route is clearly the shortest distance (25km), but would require the creation of a fairly expensive road network to get people from Glasgow across the lakes and hills then down the whole length of the Mull of Kintyre.

I'm sure that would be welcomed by environmentalists.


As for the Southern Route, that would mean creating a bridge/tunnel 45km long.

The world's longest bridge is in China, is 55km long and the deepest point it crosses is 100m deep, whereas the proposed Southern Crossing is between 100-200m deep, and the tides and waves are much more treacherous.


There's also this...

"However, concerns have been raised that the southern route crosses Beaufort’s Dyke, a natural trench that is 200-300 metres deep, 35km long and 3.5km wide.

The trench has been used as a dump site for conventional and chemical munitions since the early 20th century. It is thought to have been used to dispose of more than a million tonnes of weapons, as well as several tonnes of nuclear waste."
The Conversation (https://theconversation.com/scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-how-to-make-it-a-reality-131577)

Norway has just opened a tunnel that’s 292m deep and 14.2km long.

It is currently constructing one that is 392m deep and 26.7km long!

So I think the technicalities of a connection could be solved of there was a desire to do so.

I suppose I was touch curious as to why there appears to be such ingrained opposition to the general concept in the corridors of power in Scotland.

Would this type of connection and modern infrastructure not be exactly what an Indy Scotland would want and need?

[StevieC]

That’s absolute rubbish. The whole point of the SNP existence is constitutional change and as such they clearly spend the most time talking about constitutional change. If they aren’t talking about change and their plans to deliver it what’s the point of them?

I would disagree. As you pointed out, Independence is what they primarily stand for so its not something they really need to clarify.
Anytime I've heard it discussed recently its usually been unionist parties, and their chat has always been around how can you do this, how can you do that, how can you have a referendum while Boris says no, how will you rejoin EU, how do you prevent a border here or there or under the Irish Sea .. The SNP have not said much more than they'll wait till after May elections and see what the Scottish people decide. They've sensibly held off getting dragged in to drawn out discussions on the project fear topics getting repeated ad nauseum.

[Glory Lurker]

Where is the point in the huge cost of building a connection to an island that is to varying degrees in a different trading arrangement from ourselves?

[StevieC]

Where is the point in the huge cost of building a connection to an island that is to varying degrees in a different trading arrangement from ourselves?

I’m assuming it’s because by the time building work starts .. we won’t be 😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/dd462e03c97b3418c1ac5400ba2171e4.jpg


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[CropleyWasGod]

I’m assuming it’s because by the time building work starts .. we won’t be 😉

So long, Boris, and thanks for the bridge?

[Keith_M]

Norway has just opened a tunnel that’s 292m deep and 14.2km long.

It is currently constructing one that is 392m deep and 26.7km long!

So I think the technicalities of a connection could be solved if there was a desire to do so.

I suppose I was touch curious as to why there appears to be such ingrained opposition to the general concept in the corridors of power in Scotland.

Would this type of connection and modern infrastructure not be exactly what an Indy Scotland would want and need?


The point I was making is not that's it's impossible, but that it would be a reasonably complicated and incredibly expensive project.... so the most important question is the part of your comment I highlighted.

It was Johnson that first mentioned this, though as usual giving no detail, so my response was basically to raise the likelihood of the Westminster Government actually going through with his half hearted promise.

If he failed to create a bridge over the river Thames in his time as Mayor, I don't really see him going through with this.


TBH, given the fact that it would probably cost tens of billions of pounds, I'd question the benefit-to-cost ratio of anybody building it.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Tell me this...

If a bridge is no use due to high winds closing it for up to 100 days per year, a tunnel no use due to the depth and munitions ect and the floating underwater tunnel being very expensive or technically challenging then why has nobody ever considered a tunnel bridge?
Maybe I'm missing something but could a bridge that supports a tube that blocks out all weather not be feasible?

[CropleyWasGod]

Tell me this...

If a bridge is no use due to high winds closing it for up to 100 days per year, a tunnel no use due to the depth and munitions ect and the floating underwater tunnel being very expensive or technically challenging then why has nobody ever considered a tunnel bridge?
Maybe I'm missing something but could a bridge that supports a tube that blocks out all weather not be feasible?

You might be on to something. Boris the tube?

[Keith_M]

Tell me this...

If a bridge is no use due to high winds closing it for up to 100 days per year, a tunnel no use due to the depth and munitions ect and the floating underwater tunnel being very expensive or technically challenging then why has nobody ever considered a tunnel bridge?
Maybe I'm missing something but could a bridge that supports a tube that blocks out all weather not be feasible?


Somebody from Edinburgh University proposed this already.

I can't imagine it'll be cheap...

[lapsedhibee]

Where is the point in the huge cost of building a connection to an island that is to varying degrees in a different trading arrangement from ourselves?

:agree: Think bigger. Tunnel straight to France.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree: Think bigger. Tunnel straight to France.

From Leith. And with an undersea roundabout like in the Faroes, so that traffic going to France or Kirkcaldy can use the same entrance.[emoji106]


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[Jack]

Boris was walking along an Ayrshire beach deep in thought about saving the union. He hadn't a clue and all of a sudden he cried out loud "Lord, grant me one wish."

The sunny Scottish sky clouded over above his head and in a booming voice the Lord said, "I will grant you one wish."

"Ah, hum, er, mumble mumble" Boris said "I, er, hum, eh, build a bridge to Ireland so we can drive over anytime we want and the union will be saved."

The Lord said, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the sea! The concrete and steel it would take to get over there! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of another wish, a wish you think would honour and glorify me."

Boris thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know how they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say "nothing!" and how I can make a woman truly happy."

The Lord replied, "Do you want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge?

[Curried]

Boris was walking along an Ayrshire beach deep in thought about saving the union. He hadn't a clue and all of a sudden he cried out loud "Lord, grant me one wish."

The sunny Scottish sky clouded over above his head and in a booming voice the Lord said, "I will grant you one wish."

"Ah, hum, er, mumble mumble" Boris said "I, er, hum, eh, build a bridge to Ireland so we can drive over anytime we want and the union will be saved."

The Lord said, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the sea! The concrete and steel it would take to get over there! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of another wish, a wish you think would honour and glorify me."

Boris thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know how they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say "nothing!" and how I can make a woman truly happy."

The Lord replied, "Do you want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge?

LOL :top marks

[Ozyhibby]

https://reformscotland.com/2021/02/still-better-together-how-unionists-can-beat-the-snp-again-in-indyref2-blair-mcdougall/

Fair bit of wishful thinking in here from McDougall although he recognises the problems of setting up BT2 with such a small talent pool.


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[Jack]

https://reformscotland.com/2021/02/still-better-together-how-unionists-can-beat-the-snp-again-in-indyref2-blair-mcdougall/

Fair bit of wishful thinking in here from McDougall although he recognises the problems of setting up BT2 with such a small talent pool.


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Another few column inches of that and he may have even convinced himself.

[Keith_M]

Are we there yet?

[JeMeSouviens]

https://reformscotland.com/2021/02/still-better-together-how-unionists-can-beat-the-snp-again-in-indyref2-blair-mcdougall/

Fair bit of wishful thinking in here from McDougall although he recognises the problems of setting up BT2 with such a small talent pool.


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Have you ever seen a more arrogant, smug, pompous oaf than this guy? Ok, Boris Johnson, but that's about it.

He's constantly trying to big himself up as the strategic saviour of the Union when in reality he took over Rangers with a 4-0 half time lead against Hibs and only won 4-3. :rolleyes:

[Keith_M]

Boris was walking along an Ayrshire beach deep in thought about saving the union. He hadn't a clue and all of a sudden he cried out loud "Lord, grant me one wish."

The sunny Scottish sky clouded over above his head and in a booming voice the Lord said, "I will grant you one wish."

"Ah, hum, er, mumble mumble" Boris said "I, er, hum, eh, build a bridge to Ireland so we can drive over anytime we want and the union will be saved."

The Lord said, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the sea! The concrete and steel it would take to get over there! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of another wish, a wish you think would honour and glorify me."

Boris thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know how they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say "nothing!" and how I can make a woman truly happy."

The Lord replied, "Do you want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge?


:faf:

[Ozyhibby]

Have you ever seen a more arrogant, smug, pompous oaf than this guy? Ok, Boris Johnson, but that's about it.

He's constantly trying to big himself up as the strategic saviour of the Union when in reality he took over Rangers with a 4-0 half time lead against Hibs and only won 4-3. :rolleyes:

All his solutions in the article point to reforming Better Together and running the exact same campaign. Almost impossible to do I would think.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not quite sure where to start with this one - so I'll leave it to the reader! This is the unfiltered "what Tories actually think", by Max Hastings, the former editor of the Telegraph:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-14/u-k-breakup-good-for-ireland-bad-for-england-scotland-wales

[CloudSquall]

Have you ever seen a more arrogant, smug, pompous oaf than this guy? Ok, Boris Johnson, but that's about it.

He's constantly trying to big himself up as the strategic saviour of the Union when in reality he took over Rangers with a 4-0 half time lead against Hibs and only won 4-3. :rolleyes:

Exactly my thoughts and what gets on my tits about him too.

He plays it up that the union was doomed without his involvement and he was an intellectual mastermind who was playing "4d chess" the entire time.

I hope he is brought back in just to see him pumped (not in the literal sense :greengrin)

[CloudSquall]

I'm not quite sure where to start with this one - so I'll leave it to the reader! This is the unfiltered "what Tories actually think", by Max Hastings, the former editor of the Telegraph:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-14/u-k-breakup-good-for-ireland-bad-for-england-scotland-wales

"Man can't accept his wife is thinking of leaving him so puts his rage to paper while tearing up to the sounds of Rule Britannia".

[lord bunberry]

I'm not quite sure where to start with this one - so I'll leave it to the reader! This is the unfiltered "what Tories actually think", by Max Hastings, the former editor of the Telegraph:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-14/u-k-breakup-good-for-ireland-bad-for-england-scotland-wales
Why is it that so many people like him think it all about England? My desire for Scottish independence has nothing to do with any anti English feeling. I believe Scotland should and could be successful forward looking country that would prosper with a government that looks to the future rather than the past. Just like the other small nations around us.

[Callum_62]

"Over the past 30 years, the Scottish Nationalist Party has soared in popularity"

Who are they?

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[Ozyhibby]

I'm not quite sure where to start with this one - so I'll leave it to the reader! This is the unfiltered "what Tories actually think", by Max Hastings, the former editor of the Telegraph:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-14/u-k-breakup-good-for-ireland-bad-for-england-scotland-wales

We are nothing but a possession for them. The whole article is about what we cost to own.


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[Ozyhibby]

http://ballotbox.scot/comres-february-2021


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[heretoday]

Can't we put the independence agenda on the shelf till we've got this virus under some sort of control?

Honestly, opportunism - thy name is Sturgeon.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210216/d832fc7a333d9a8ce38a66bd548565ea.jpg

Looking at this projection, if these polls stay the same and Indy is your main priority then using your 2nd vote for the greens is best option unless your in the Highlands.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-55931873?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fwo rld-europe-55931873&data=04%7C01%7CErik.Solheim%40plasticrevolution.ea rth%7Cbdc47fbd04be4083b62008d8cce91648%7C4532deeec 4ed44d788c679ffa513472c%7C0%7C0%7C6374846487614067 83%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1ygJyuPTZTXhHzmgqaB2VWPUzf04YwTb0tSNUoOrhX4% 3D&reserved=0&__twitter_impression=true

How do the Danes manage this without the broad shoulders of the UK?


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Looking at this projection, if these polls stay the same and Indy is your main priority then using your 2nd vote for the greens is best option unless your in the Highlands.


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i've went from anger at how so many indy votes are wasted allowing serial losers like murdo ******g fraser into parliament, it's sickening a throbber like him gets a salary, Bomber Blair and Dewar admitted the system was to stop the SNP having power, how ******* undemocratic is that eh, then i started leaning towards SNP 1& another of the pop-up parties but whoever uploaded that not-so-funny video last week for the ISP has ensured they certainly won't get my(and many others) 2nd vote now, problem is majority of the pop-up's can't even work together to co-ordinate exactly which regions would be best served for a 2nd vote, SNP MSP's/MP's are still insisting on SNP 1&2 and i'm leaning towards that again, if only their was a sure-fire ORGANISED way for the SNP to pick up more than a measly 4 list seats this time, but i'm wondering if a lot of voters give their 2nd vote to the greens will that be seen as a lack of support for the SNP..even though the greens are pro-indy, what's to stop them getting a whole load of list seats then saying afterwards they've changed their minds about independence and instead want to work with the Johnson and Starmer scottish branches :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

i've went from anger at how so many indy votes are wasted allowing serial losers like murdo ******g fraser into parliament, it's sickening a throbber like him gets a salary, Bomber Blair and Dewar admitted the system was to stop the SNP having power, how ******* undemocratic is that eh, then i started leaning towards SNP 1& another of the pop-up parties but whoever uploaded that not-so-funny video last week for the ISP has ensured they certainly won't get my(and many others) 2nd vote now, problem is majority of the pop-up's can't even work together to co-ordinate exactly which regions would be best served for a 2nd vote, SNP MSP's/MP's are still insisting on SNP 1&2 and i'm leaning towards that again, if only their was a sure-fire ORGANISED way for the SNP to pick up more than a measly 4 list seats this time, but i'm wondering if a lot of voters give their 2nd vote to the greens will that be seen as a lack of support for the SNP..even though the greens are pro-indy, what's to stop them getting a whole load of list seats then saying afterwards they've changed their minds about independence and instead want to work with the Johnson and Starmer scottish branches :greengrin

Their whole party is built on those list seats as the 2nd Indy party. Can’t see them giving that up.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

Can't we put the independence agenda on the shelf till we've got this virus under some sort of control?

Honestly, opportunism - thy name is Sturgeon.


Scottish voters will decide whether it's opportunistic at the ballot box in May.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://ballotbox.scot/comres-february-2021


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Brilliant illustrations for not giving second votes to the SNP. Second vote green if you want independence.

[lord bunberry]

Can't we put the independence agenda on the shelf till we've got this virus under some sort of control?

Honestly, opportunism - thy name is Sturgeon.
No.

[lord bunberry]

Brilliant illustrations for not giving second votes to the SNP. Second vote green if you want independence.
That’s what I’ll be doing.

[degenerated]

Brilliant illustrations for not giving second votes to the SNP. Second vote green if you want independence.Only if the greens actually put a manifesto commitment for having a referendum, last time round they had something about requiring a petition of a million signatures.

The other issue is that westminster will use the SNP vote as the barometer in any argument regardless of the number on green msp's in holyrood.

[Ozyhibby]

Only if the greens actually put a manifesto commitment for having a referendum, last time round they had something about requiring a petition of a million signatures.

The other issue is that westminster will use the SNP vote as the barometer in any argument regardless of the number on green msp's in holyrood.

The SNP first vote is over 50%. Can’t get much better than that. Giving second vote to the SNP can’t improve the situation as far as MSP numbers go.
The way I look at it, the SNP will get a majority on their own if polls stay the same. By voting Green with a 2nd vote I can help reduce the amount of unionist MSP’s, which makes their talent pool even shallower for the coming indyref.


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[The Modfather]

Can't we put the independence agenda on the shelf till we've got this virus under some sort of control?

Honestly, opportunism - thy name is Sturgeon.

Why is working towards independence during a pandemic any different to delivering Brexit during a pandemic? Why shelf one but not the other?

[SHODAN]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210216/d832fc7a333d9a8ce38a66bd548565ea.jpg

Looking at this projection, if these polls stay the same and Indy is your main priority then using your 2nd vote for the greens is best option unless your in the Highlands.


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Yup. Unless something changes SNP will sweep the constituency seats. My second vote will be Green.

[ronaldo7]

Can't we put the independence agenda on the shelf till we've got this virus under some sort of control?

Honestly, opportunism - thy name is Sturgeon.

No thanks. 😊

[Ozyhibby]

With a strong tactical vote for the Greens we can make them the official opposition at Holyrood. [emoji6][emoji23]


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[degenerated]

Why is working towards independence during a pandemic any different to delivering Brexit during a pandemic? Why shelf one but not the other?Or working to prevent independence, like the tories are doing. Their focus is on building the 50 strong anti snp department rather than the pandemic.

[Ozyhibby]

Or working to prevent independence, like the tories are doing. Their focus is on building the 50 strong anti snp department rather than the pandemic.

Not to mention planning a tunnel to Ireland in the middle of a pandemic.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210219/6aa982353fd80902071e14467164a7ae.jpg

Union proving trickier to save than originally thought?


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[lapsedhibee]

Union proving trickier to save than originally thought?


Either that or he was cheeky to Johnson's bidie-in.

[weecounty hibby]

It seems that the union unit is not very United. Imagine trying to pull together a team of 50 and within a couple of weeks the two people asked to lead it have both resigned.

[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210219/6aa982353fd80902071e14467164a7ae.jpg

Union proving trickier to save than originally thought?


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The boy's only been in the job for a couple of weeks. Must be some guy to work for that blonde bombshell.

Can any Unionist tell me if they have a Union unit office for Wales, and Northern Ireland. It must be hard on them when all the money is coming north to Edinburgh to save the Union. Jobs for the boys.

[Glory Lurker]

He couldn't work with others at number 10. This worries me a bit. Has he worked out who our infiltrators are?

[Jack]

It seems that the union unit is not very United. Imagine trying to pull together a team of 50 and within a couple of weeks the two people asked to lead it have both resigned.

I'll do it.

[Ozyhibby]

Either that or he was cheeky to Johnson's bidie-in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-56128879?__twitter_impression=true

Might be a hint of truth there.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210219/6aa982353fd80902071e14467164a7ae.jpg

Union proving trickier to save than originally thought?


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Alas poor Sonic, I knew him so well ...

[lord bunberry]

Alas poor Sonic, I knew him so well ...
It’s bad luck to speak of the union play.

[Colr]

Rather flimsy article in the FT this morning

https://amp.ft.com/content/91027115-3159-4132-9a0a-31bab473d6bb

Not sure what the authors claim of being half-Scots means but its clearly a status that bestows no insight whatsoever into the motivations for Scottish independence.

[Keith_M]

Rather flimsy article in the FT this morning

https://amp.ft.com/content/91027115-3159-4132-9a0a-31bab473d6bb

Not sure what the authors claim of being half-Scots means but its clearly a status that bestows no insight whatsoever into the motivations for Scottish independence.


Seems to be behind a pay-wall

[Colr]

Seems to be behind a pay-wall

Prime Minister Boris Johnson stated this week that Scottish devolution has “absolutely not overall” been a disaster. He was trying to distance himself from leaked remarks in November when he told English Tory MPs that devolution had been “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. But he was right at the time. Blair’s attempts to defuse nationalism simply inflamed it. Johnson’s contortions show how powerful the nationalists have become.

As a half-Scot, I have sympathy with the desire to assert distinct identities. Yet I have been dismayed to see how poorly the Union has functioned during the pandemic. What should have been a UK-wide effort to combat the virus fell into blaming and squabbling, with the Welsh and Scottish administrations insisting on tighter lockdown policies while relying on financial support from the central government in London.

The administration at Westminster has often felt more like a government of England alone. Devolution is lopsided, with Scottish and Welsh MPs voting on English matters, while English MPs cannot vote on matters reserved to Scotland and Wales.

With the Scottish Nationalist party pressing for a second referendum on independence if they win Scotland’s May elections, Johnson must decide whether he has the courage to rewrite the constitutional settlement. This cannot be fudged: the prospects for “global Britain” are unravelling, just when the UK is vulnerable in the world.

Unless Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s first minister, is derailed by an inquiry into her government’s handling of complaints about Alex Salmond, her predecessor, she will use a May victory to claim a mandate for a second referendum. Johnson plans to refuse this demand on the basis that the 2014 referendum verdict was meant to last for a generation. But the concern in Downing Street is that Sturgeon will run an advisory referendum anyway.

Some of those who want to preserve the Union are urging Westminster to placate the nationalists with something that looks more federal. This would make Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland self-governing countries in a more equal partnership, co-operating on shared matters. There is logic in the argument that a big offer is needed, since throwing small bones has not quelled the separatist fervour. As former prime minister Gordon Brown has pointed out, the principle of localism is sound: the over-centralisation of power in London hampers local authorities and elected mayors.

But it would be an unworkable federation in which England had roughly eight in 10 of the people and an even higher percentage of gross domestic product. This would necessitate England’s division into regions, something which voters rejected under Blair. It would be a recipe for more layers of government and bureaucracy and more hands held out for subsidies — with the added frustration that the model could make Scotland quasi-independent without having to muster its own military, create its own currency or pay its own way.

Clearly, Brexit has changed the equation by riding roughshod over Scottish desires to remain in the EU and boosting pro-independence sentiment. Johnson should call Sturgeon’s bluff over any advisory referendum, since her argument for breaking previous SNP commitments would have no more weight than that of separatists in Catalonia, whose unconstitutional 2017 referendum has left it in limbo. But something needs to be done.

One answer would be to introduce a new Act of Union: a much crisper settlement with clear accountabilities. This would define the UK as a unitary state with suitable powers devolved and with due respect for each nation’s identity.

But it would also reassert a British identity and keep ultimate sovereignty at Westminster. The leftwing think-tank Scottish Fabians have proposed such an act, which would also set a higher bar for referendums and have the merit of limiting Downing Street’s ability to make ad hoc changes to suit itself.

It would take time to settle the details of which matters would be devolved and which reserved. This could be worked out in something like the “forum of nations” proposed by Brown. Johnson should bite the bullet. As a former mayor of London whose party has pushed forward policies on elected mayors, he knows that the UK is over-centralised. “I think that devolution can work very well,” he said this week. “But it depends very much on what the devolved authorities do.”

Despite exposing the disjointed nature of the Union, the pandemic has also showed some of its benefits. Vaccines have been invented and procured at UK level, using the heft of the British state.

Johnson will never win over the nationalists. He has presented them with an ideal target to perpetuate the myth that England doesn’t care. But the SNP’s attacks show the emptiness of their case. Their contention that Scotland could thrive outside the Union is unconvincing. It might in fact pay a heavy economic price for secession, no matter how high the SNP’s hopes that Scotland would smoothly join the EU and flourish thereafter.

Westminster and the Conservative party have been looking away from the realities of devolution for too long, sleepwalking into disaster. The late Tam Dalyell, a Labour MP, once called devolution “a motorway without exit to a Scottish state”. As we near the final junction, Johnson should hold his nerve. It is time to think big about a new and fair constitutional settlement — but not to cave in to Sturgeon whose party, after all, may not be around forever.