Scottish Independence

[lucky]

We know you think that anything and everything these terrible cybernats do is scandalous.

You gave the game away a while back with your 'pathological hatred of Nationalists' quote.

This should be an individual decision for all of us. I say again, to see a business owner put this sort of pressure on his, presumably, hard working staff is nothing short of disgraceful.

To see a left leaning individual like you support it, is just laughable.

What would you be saying if this guy told his staff joining a Trade Union would be bad for their employment prospects?

You are comparing apples and organges. The right to join a trade union is covered by law just not strong laws. Many businesses shamefully don't recognise trade unions, do you in your business? On the referendum, we all have a say and it's only right for him to have his say and tell his employees how he sees it.

[marinello59]

Barrhead Travel trying to bully staff into voting no.



12309

How is that bullying? It's just him stating his views. I'm confident that the Barrhead travel staff are more than capable of thinking things through for themselves and (hopefully) voting Yes anyway. That memo might actually be counterproductive.

[RyeSloan]

Put it another way. Do you think it would be fair of me to outline all of the benefits I think we'd derive from Scottish Independence (i.e. - my politics) whilst telling my staff that a No vote would be bad news for the business and bad news for their job prospects?

Urmm yeah.

If you believed a yes vote would be good for your business and explained the logic behind that while stating a No vote would jeopardise those opportunities then I would have no problem with that.

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/davidjhgardiner/status/450595486311780352 evidence of real bullying.

For me Social Media and politics just don't mix. Twitter in particular seems to encourage the spiteful and the downright nasty.

[allmodcons]

Urmm yeah.

If you believed a yes vote would be good for your business and explained the logic behind that while stating a No vote would jeopardise those opportunities then I would have no problem with that.

You think the Barrhead Travel e-mail offers a logical argument?

Quote "the magnitude of the impending disaster should there be a yes vote becomes ever more apparent'.

This followed by a list of bland asserations with no counter argument.

If that isn't a case of a Business Owner trying to inject fear into his employees then I'm a Unionist!

[allmodcons]

Urmm yeah.

If you believed a yes vote would be good for your business and explained the logic behind that while stating a No vote would jeopardise those opportunities then I would have no problem with that.

D'you know what, I don't believe you!

If you worked for me :greengrin and I sent you an e-mail outlining the virtues of a Yes vote and painted a doomsday scenario of your employment prospects in the event of a No vote, I think you would be banging on my door asking questions?

[Beefster]

https://twitter.com/davidjhgardiner/status/450595486311780352 evidence of real bullying.

I can only imagine how bitter these ****wits are going to be on the morning after the referendum if it's a no.

"How dare you bully your staff. I hope they all lose their job now"

[allmodcons]

You are comparing apples and organges. The right to join a trade union is covered by law just not strong laws. Many businesses shamefully don't recognise trade unions, do you in your business? On the referendum, we all have a say and it's only right for him to have his say and tell his employees how he sees it.

The principle is the same and you know it.

This is a classic case of a Business Owner spreading fear. Read the text. There is no logic in his case. Just an e-mail full of negativity about the (completely unfounded) potential of job losses at Barrhead Travel in the event of a Yes vote.

You are only supporting these comments because they are anti a 'Yes' vote.

If a pro Independence supporter sent this sort of message to his staff I can guarantee you that I'd be just as shocked.

This is not about a Yes/No vote it's about an employer placing unacceptable pressure on his staff at a time when many are trying to come to terms with the consequences of severe austerity measures.

[allmodcons]

I can only imagine how bitter these ****wits are going to be on the morning after the referendum if it's a no.

"How dare you bully your staff. I hope they all lose their job now"

I expect no different to how the bitter ****wits in the No camp will be the day after a Yes vote.

Why can't you accept the fact that there are idiots on both sides of the debate?

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-zero-sum-game/

[Beefster]

I expect no different to how the bitter ****wits in the No camp will be the day after a Yes vote.

Why can't you accept the fact that there are idiots on both sides of the debate?

I do but, beyond Justin Bieber and One Direction fans, I've never seen anyone as venomous as some nationalists on Twitter.

[allmodcons]

I do but, beyond Justin Bieber and One Direction fans, I've never seen anyone as venomous as some nationalists on Twitter.

You do and then qualify it by saying your idiots are more venomous than our idiots?
I can easily post you a link to venomous Unionists. Why can't you just accept the sad reality without qualification?

[Beefster]

You do and then qualify it by saying your idiots are more venomous than our idiots?
I can easily post you a link to venomous Unionists. Why can't you just accept the sad reality without qualification?

It's an opinion.

[ronaldo7]

You are entitled to take the decision not share your views or concerns with your staff just like the owner of Barrhead travel is with his staff. The reaction on social media from cyberNats is scandalous. Some the comments of wanting the firm to go under, organising boycotts and threats to the owner and it's shops is not acceptable and is bullying at worst. I believe that the usual over the top reaction is co ordinated and encouraged by the Yes campaign to intimidate business leaders having their say

Any evidence of this or is it just your opinion?

[ronaldo7]

The leader of the NO camp will state again tonight that we can't use the pound. Their's maybe none left following his snout being in trough for so long.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5418768/MPs-expenses-How-Alistair-Darling-nominated-four-properties-as-second-home-in-four-years.html?fb

He's had as many homes as we've had managers in the same time span.

[Beefster]

The leader of the NO camp will state again tonight that we can't use the pound. Their's maybe none left following his snout being in trough for so long.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5418768/MPs-expenses-How-Alistair-Darling-nominated-four-properties-as-second-home-in-four-years.html?fb

He's had as many homes as we've had managers in the same time span.

What's the relevance to the independence debate?

Anyone could dredge up a ton of stories about Salmond and dodgy expenses from the last five years.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good blog by Ian Smart looking at the state of the campaigns with a football slant
http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/there-is-no-room-for-complacency.html?m=1

Here is the same guy, suggesting a Lab-Con coalition at Holyrood for 2016. Better Together right enough! :wink:

http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/cometh-hour-cometh-woman.html

[snooky]

This is getting really tedious. I run a small busines (10 employees) but never in a million years would I subject them to my own political views.

He's saying, "I think you should think twice about voting No because you might not have a job if you don't". Absolutely disgraceful way to treat staff.

Anyone who thinks this is acceptable from a business owner is just plain and simply wrong.

Exactly - he's perfectly entitled to his opinion however, there is an air of threat in his statement.
It's the wording, rather than the opinion, that is inappropriate IMO.

[ronaldo7]

What's the relevance to the independence debate?

Anyone could dredge up a ton of stories about Salmond and dodgy expenses from the last five years.

Last time I looked he was heading up the No campaign, and trying to keep things together. Don't do as I do, do as I say. Neither wonder he wants to keep the Union with the amount of cash he can keep piling up for himself.

Salmond is not the leader of the yes campaign.

[ronaldo7]

Good blog by Ian Smart looking at the state of the campaigns with a football slant
http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/there-is-no-room-for-complacency.html?m=1

He mentions in his blog... Indeed, to the best of my knowledge, no secondary school of any proper size in the whole of Scotland has yet to vote Yes in such an exercise.

Must have missed this one then. Or do you have to be a certain size now for your vote to count.

http://www.whfp.com/2014/03/28/plockton-high-says-yes-to-independence/

[ronaldo7]

Interesting piece on how Westminster works. Some time ago though.

The Chagos Islands...Stealing a Nation

http://johnpilger.com/videos/stealing-a-nation

[lucky]

Any evidence of this or is it just your opinion?

I said I believe, so I thought it was clear it was my opinion

[ronaldo7]

I said I believe, so I thought it was clear it was my opinion

So NO EVIDENCE THEN:aok:

[HarpyHibby]

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win". I think we might just do this, more and more people coming round to Yes, I just hope it will be enough.

[lucky]

So NO EVIDENCE THEN:aok:

Never said there was. It was MY opinion. Do you think the bullying and harassment is not co ordinated? Any business that comes out against independence gets attacked. I've not seen supporters of the No campaign react in this way

[ronaldo7]

Never said there was. It was MY opinion. Do you think the bullying and harassment is not co ordinated? Any business that comes out against independence gets attacked. I've not seen supporters of the No campaign react in this way


No.:aok:

I've seen no evidence to say otherwise so it's a no from me.

[Beefster]

Last time I looked he was heading up the No campaign, and trying to keep things together. Don't do as I do, do as I say. Neither wonder he wants to keep the Union with the amount of cash he can keep piling up for himself.

Salmond is not the leader of the yes campaign.

Your hypocrisy is breathtaking.

[lucky]

No.:aok:

I've seen no evidence to say otherwise so it's a no from me.

Well that's a shock. Without being insulting to you, you really need to take your head out the sand. The level of abuse directed at Barrhead travel yesterday was way over the top. But in your opinion none of it was co- ordinated. You surely aren't that blinkered

[lucky]

Brilliant April fools day story on twitter by the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-un-draws-up-peacekeeping-plans-in-event-of-scottish-yes-vote-9226892.html

[RyeSloan]

D'you know what, I don't believe you! If you worked for me :greengrin and I sent you an e-mail outlining the virtues of a Yes vote and painted a doomsday scenario of your employment prospects in the event of a No vote, I think you would be banging on my door asking questions?

Honestly I wouldn't.

As the head of the company with, hopefully, some insight as to what dangers will be presented to it by certain scenarios I would take your point seriously. That's not to say I wouldn't question it (my bosses love that part of me!) or maybe not even believe it but I'd have no problems with you saying it as you saw it.

[nonshinyfinish]

Brilliant April fools day story on twitter by the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-un-draws-up-peacekeeping-plans-in-event-of-scottish-yes-vote-9226892.html

One in the Graun too: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the peculiar dynamic of a referendum versus an ordinary election has an influence on how far the participants will bend and break the truth.

They are, of course, an inherently reckless bunch when it comes to the truth ("why is this lying ******* lying to me"?) but in a normal election situation anyone that thinks they might win has to have at least half an eye on being held to account and not offering hostages to fortune.

The referendum is different: the Yes side partly has the normal dynamic (at least if they intend to stand in future elections) but the No side doesn't. Yes hopes to win and will then be judged by how far the outcome falls short of their rhetoric. No expects to win and win comfortably, there will then be no change. None of the hypothetical situations being addressed will happen. They can therefore feel much freer than normal to just say absolutely anything without fear of consequence.

Hence closed borders, keeping Scotland out of the EU, flat out refusal of monetary union, etc.

[ronaldo7]

Well that's a shock. Without being insulting to you, you really need to take your head out the sand. The level of abuse directed at Barrhead travel yesterday was way over the top. But in your opinion none of it was co- ordinated. You surely aren't that blinkered

The game has changed Lucky. We no longer have to be spoon fed the MSM Unionist view of things. This interwebby thing is the new dynamic in this referendum and those pesky cybernats seem to have taken to it like ducks to water. Just look at the amount of sites that have sprung up and the crowd funding success of Wings

http://wingsoverscotland.com/this-is-not-an-april-fool/

The co-ordination you seem to seek is probably just one text/FB/twitter going viral, its not co-ordinated, it's just how it is today. I got the info from my FB page. I never needed to look for it, it just popped in their and I could make of it what I liked.

I do not condone any bullying or harassment of companies who come out with pro Unionist stances, that's up to the owner of Barrhead travel, however they really shouldn't be surprised if they get a barrage of responses after his letter to his employees yesterday containing the words "SNP Lies".

He had his Ratner moment yesterday and I'm afraid many many people will now vote with their feet, and not use his travel company for their own reasons.

More on Barrhead Travel. Its seems they may be Neutral

https://twitter.com/AndyCowe110969/status/450681646644465664

[Just Alf]

Brilliant April fools day story on twitter by the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-un-draws-up-peacekeeping-plans-in-event-of-scottish-yes-vote-9226892.html

from the replies below....

"It is incredibly difficult to distinguish between April Foolery and real No campaign propaganda."

:greengrin

[Thief]

One in the Graun too: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme

The early comments on the guardian are priceless. Some sucked right in :-)

[southfieldhibby]

https://twitter.com/davidjhgardiner/status/450595486311780352 evidence of real bullying.


I can only imagine how bitter these ****wits are going to be on the morning after the referendum if it's a no.

"How dare you bully your staff. I hope they all lose their job now"


I do but, beyond Justin Bieber and One Direction fans, I've never seen anyone as venomous as some nationalists on Twitter.

Take a wee look at the comments below the tweet from radicalised unionists...they're just as bad and remove the notion of high ground from either side.If folk can't see beyond the lunatic fringes of both sides and concentrate on the proper issue it's valuable time wasted.

[ronaldo7]

Your hypocrisy is breathtaking.

The hypocrisy is all his after bleating about the disparity of funds for each of the campaigns. He could syphon off some of his own cash to the NO CAMP

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8970-darling-pockets-p14-million-on-top-of-mps-salary

[Beefster]

The hypocrisy is all his after bleating about the disparity of funds for each of the campaigns. He could syphon off some of his own cash to the NO CAMP

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8970-darling-pockets-p14-million-on-top-of-mps-salary

Darling may well be a hypocrite but he's not the only one.

Darling's expenses are fair game because he's the head of the No campaign but Salmond's don't matter because he's only the First Minister taking us into the referendum in the first place.

Genius.

[OsloHibs]

It took me a while to read up on everything, but I have finally made my mind up. And voted on your poll!

[ronaldo7]

Darling may well be a hypocrite but he's not the only one.

Darling's expenses are fair game because he's the head of the No campaign but Salmond's don't matter because he's only the First Minister taking us into the referendum in the first place.

Genius.

Twas you that mentioned Salmond, not me. If you want to put up some links crack on. You keep telling people to stop playing the man but throw Salmond's name into the mix each chance you get.

Genius

[Beefster]

Twas you that mentioned Salmond, not me. If you want to put up some links crack on. You keep telling people to stop playing the man but throw Salmond's name into the mix each chance you get.

Genius

It seems you completely missed my point.

[Glory Lurker]

Sunday - freezing. Hibs get beat.
Monday - overcast and grim, rain later on.
Tuesday - chucking it down all day.

British Summertime. 100% awful.

Vote Yes!

[Sorry, just thought we could do with a bit of levity!]

[Future17]

Sunday - freezing. Hibs get beat.
Monday - overcast and grim, rain later on.
Tuesday - chucking it down all day.

British Summertime. 100% awful.

Vote Yes!

[Sorry, just thought we could do with a bit of levity!]

What does the White Paper say Scottish Summertime will be like? :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

What does the White Paper say Scottish Summertime will be like? :greengrin


We'll have a climate union with Italy. :greengrin

[allmodcons]

It took me a while to read up on everything, but I have finally made my mind up. And voted on your poll!

Come on then 'spill the beans'.

[green glory]

Ian (I'm an MP) Murray caught lying. Accused Yes supporters of vandalising his constituency office. As if he wasn't loathsome enough. http://wingsoverscotland.com 12337 The picture above is on Google Maps, and was taken months ago. I cycle past occasionally and can also confirm the vandalism has been there since at least last September.



Apologies wrong link. Try this.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-smear-wars/

[Hibrandenburg]

Anyone else see the tourist boards advert for the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup? Gotta be sponsored by the Yes Campaign! :greengrin

[lucky]

Anyone else see the tourist boards advert for the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup? Gotta be sponsored by the Yes Campaign! :greengrin

Your nearly right, the Scottish Govt. It's an abuse of taxpayers money but the SNP are getting away with it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Your nearly right, the Scottish Govt. It's an abuse of taxpayers money but the SNP are getting away with it.

So the Scottish government shouldn't be trying to sell Scotland in a positive light?

[ronaldo7]

Ian (I'm an MP) Murray caught lying. Accused Yes supporters of vandalising his constituency office. As if he wasn't loathsome enough. http://wingsoverscotland.com 12337 The picture above is on Google Maps, and was taken months ago. I cycle past occasionally and can also confirm the vandalism has been there since at least last September.



Apologies wrong link. Try this.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-smear-wars/

That's a surprise. I wonder how long it will take him to rectify and retract.

[SHODAN]

The increasing demonisation of the poor and immigrants down south as a means to deflect blame away from sheer single-mindedness and greed from those in charge of our banks and multi-national corporations is having a profound effect on me.

It is utterly terrifying that a thinly disguised group of xenophobes could end up being a kingmaker between two weak, spineless parties in 2015, and I do not want to be part of a country that even has a referendum on the EU let alone votes to leave it.

Beforehand I was a tentative "yes" but now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind what I will be voting for. I want out.

[allmodcons]

Ian (I'm an MP) Murray caught lying. Accused Yes supporters of vandalising his constituency office. As if he wasn't loathsome enough. http://wingsoverscotland.com 12337 The picture above is on Google Maps, and was taken months ago. I cycle past occasionally and can also confirm the vandalism has been there since at least last September.



Apologies wrong link. Try this.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-smear-wars/

The No campaign 'team' are losing the argument.
Day by day they get more and more desperate.
Their daily diet of smears, fear and lies is not resonating with the voting public.
Ian Murray's latest attempt to blame Yes supporters for graffiti outside his constituency office shows just how low these overpaid wasters will go to defend their status at Westminster. This, coupled with another attack today, by the unheathily angry Alistair Darling, on those pesky cyberNats tells you that they've not got anything positive to say.
Listen to any debate on the radio/watch any debate on TV and you'll see where all the anger is coming from. No are losing ground and they know it.






Your nearly right, the Scottish Govt. It's an abuse of taxpayers money but the SNP are getting away with it.

Marketing and running adverts in support of the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup is an abuse of taxpayers money?

Get real.

Can I presume, you think it was an abuse of taxpayers money for the UK Government to market the Olympic Games or is this only the case when it involves the SNP?

[ronaldo7]

Ian (I'm an MP) Murray caught lying. Accused Yes supporters of vandalising his constituency office. As if he wasn't loathsome enough. http://wingsoverscotland.com 12337 The picture above is on Google Maps, and was taken months ago. I cycle past occasionally and can also confirm the vandalism has been there since at least last September.



Apologies wrong link. Try this.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-smear-wars/

More here http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8979-photographs-cast-doubt-on-labour-mps-yes-vandals-claim

I wonder why Ian (I'm an Mp) Murray's twitter account has gone quiet

[JimBHibees]

More here http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8979-photographs-cast-doubt-on-labour-mps-yes-vandals-claim

I wonder why Ian (I'm an Mp) Murray's twitter account has gone quiet

Absolutely disgusting by Murray. If this was the other way round this would be all over the press IMO.

[Just Alf]

I know this is a (big) bit simplistic, but if towns and cities can do it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-26841238

[The Modfather]

I know this is a (big) bit simplistic, but if towns and cities can do it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-26841238

Border controls etc at Hull now ;-)

[ronaldo7]

The lighter side of "Stickergate".

http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/da-vinci-code-expert-called-to.html

[marinello59]

The No campaign 'team' are losing the argument.
Day by day they get more and more desperate.
Their daily diet of smears, fear and lies is not resonating with the voting public.
Ian Murray's latest attempt to blame Yes supporters for graffiti outside his constituency office shows just how low these overpaid wasters will go to defend their status at Westminster. This, coupled with another attack today, by the unheathily angry Alistair Darling, on those pesky cyberNats tells you that they've not got anything positive to say.
Listen to any debate on the radio/watch any debate on TV and you'll see where all the anger is coming from. No are losing ground and they know it.


I don't either side is winning the argument because anything resembling sensible debate is just not happening. Both sides are as bad as each other and things seem to be descending in to playground bickering. Calling them 'pesky cybernats' is underplaying the level of vitriol that SOME on the Yes side are indulging in. SOME on the No side as just as guilty. Trying to gain points over what the nutters are getting up to is going to win neither side any votes.

[allmodcons]

I expect no different to how the bitter ****wits in the No camp will be the day after a Yes vote.

Why can't you accept the fact that there are idiots on both sides of the debate?



I don't either side is winning the argument because anything resembling sensible debate is just not happening. Both sides are as bad as each other and things seem to be descending in to playground bickering. Calling them 'pesky cybernats' is underplaying the level of vitriol that SOME on the Yes side are indulging in. SOME on the No side as just as guilty. Trying to gain points over what the nutters are getting up to is going to win neither side any votes.

I completely disagree with this statement. There is a serious debate going on out there.

Read my earlier post. I know full well that there are idiots on both sides of the debate!

Furthermore, I think you'll find that it is the No campaign who continually moan about online abuse. This is because there is a bigger grass roots and social media movement behind the Yes campaign.

If you want some evidence in support of this, just take a look at those 'so called' left wing politicians (Margaret Curran & Jim Murphy) cosying up to the Daily Mail when they led with their 'nasty cybernats' story and, as if illustrate my point, have a look at Alistair Darling's comments in the Telegraph today, where he is basically calling for a curb on social media comment.

[marinello59]

I completely disagree with this statement. There is a serious debate going on out there.

Read my earlier post. I know full well that there are idiots on both sides of the debate!

Furthermore, I think you'll find that it is the No campaign who continually moan about online abuse. This is because there is a bigger grass roots and social media movement behind the Yes campaign.

If you want some evidence in support of this, just take a look at those 'so called' left wing politicians (Margaret Curran & Jim Murphy) cosying up to the Daily Mail when they led with their 'nasty cybernats' story and, as if illustrate my point, have a look at Alistair Darling's comments in the Telegraph today, where he is basically calling for a curb on social media comment.

Instead of arguing about the size of the problem on either side and who is complaining about it the most wouldn't it be simpler to just condemn the idiots on either side whenever they show face.. That seems beyond some.

[allmodcons]

Instead of arguing about the size of the problem on either side and who is complaining about it the most wouldn't it be simpler to just condemn the idiots on either side whenever they show face.. That seems beyond some.

Read my earlier exchange of posts with Beefster.
I got a response that said - I agree, but your idiots are worse than ours!!

[green glory]

Instead of arguing about the size of the problem on either side and who is complaining about it the most wouldn't it be simpler to just condemn the idiots on either side whenever they show face.. That seems beyond some.

Indeed. There are plenty twits on both sides.

I disagree with your assertion about sensible debate though, I just think you need to get past the politicians and the trolls.

There are events every day and night around Scotland you can go along to to hear reasoned and well informed debate. Might be worth checking them out. I think there's one in the Minto Hotel tonight.

[marinello59]

Indeed. There are plenty twits on both sides.

I disagree with your assertion about sensible debate though, I just think you need to get past the politicians and the trolls.

There are events every day and night around Scotland you can go along to to hear reasoned and well informed debate. Might be worth checking them out. I think there's one in the Minto Hotel tonight.

Fair comment. I was over stating things a bit to say that there was no sensible debate going on. I like the politicians and trolls line. :greengrin

[Beefster]

Read my earlier exchange of posts with Beefster.
I got a response that said - I agree, but your idiots are worse than ours!!

I don't have an "ours". I'm planning on voting no but I am not campaigning for it and I'm not a member of any groups related to the referendum.

My opinion of the tits on Twitter is nothing to do with their voting intentions and everything to do with the way they behave whenever anyone does or says anything they disagree with.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't have an "ours". I'm planning on voting no but I am not campaigning for it and I'm not a member of any groups related to the referendum.


You're campaigning for it here. Every little helps (or hinders). :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Thought I would balance out Stickergate and I'm an MP Murray. His Blog replied to the wings report after his original twitter and the shock of Vandalising of his office.

His Blog here http://ianmurraymp.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/lets-have-a-reasoned-debate-based-on-fact/

I just want to point out a wee extract of the blog though...

The vandalism was not on the front doors as stated by the blog post. The doors to my constituency office have been like that since approximately summer 2010, mainly because I purchased a special paint due to the colour matching, not realising that it was ineffective for the job and requires to be sanded down.

The reason there was no damage or otherwise visible when the bloggers photographer went around as my staff had taken the time to clear the windows and doors of the stickers.

The man just can't help himself imo.

[BarneyK]

Thought I would balance out Stickergate and I'm an MP Murray. His Blog replied to the wings report after his original twitter and the shock of Vandalising of his office.

His Blog here http://ianmurraymp.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/lets-have-a-reasoned-debate-based-on-fact/

I just want to point out a wee extract of the blog though...

The vandalism was not on the front doors as stated by the blog post. The doors to my constituency office have been like that since approximately summer 2010, mainly because I purchased a special paint due to the colour matching, not realising that it was ineffective for the job and requires to be sanded down.

The reason there was no damage or otherwise visible when the bloggers photographer went around as my staff had taken the time to clear the windows and doors of the stickers.

The man just can't help himself imo.

Stickers are vandalism?

[ronaldo7]

Stickers are vandalism?

He mentioned that his office was vandalised by the yes campaigners. It turned out to be stickers, although he's never produced the evidence.:rolleyes:

[BarneyK]

He mentioned that his office was vandalised by the yes campaigners. It turned out to be stickers, although he's never produced the evidence.:rolleyes:

And were such a trouble to remove that there are no remnants left to see. The man's a tool.

[green glory]

Naturally when Murray complained about the "vandalism", everyone focused on the damage to the office doors.

Murray's idea of vandalism clearly isn't the same as most other people's.

The whole thing has helped to divert attention from him voting for the benefits cap last week though.



12344

[allmodcons]

What a the contrast!

Ian Murray complaining that a Yes sticker is vandalism:boo hoo: but not so much as a cheep from Nicola Sturgeon when this happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7jwcmORDrk

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm more than happy to concede that there are idiots on both sides of the debate, but think it's fair to highlight the lies being put about by Ian Murray MP.

[Alex Trager]

What a the contrast!

Ian Murray complaining that a Yes sticker is vandalism:boo hoo: but not so much as a cheep from Nicola Sturgeon when this happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7jwcmORDrk

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm more than happy to concede that there are idiots on both sides of the debate, but think it's fair to highlight the lies being put about by Ian Murray MP.

Do these guys know they are not voting for ulster to not be British?

[allmodcons]

Do these guys know they are not voting for ulster to not be British?

I can't imagine these idiots know their left side from their right!

[Alex Trager]

I can't imagine these idiots know their left side from their right!

Yeah I get a similar impression. With their rangers scarfs on they really strike me as the type who have taken a step away from their football allegiances and allowed for a careful examination of the info available to them and thus allowed a decision on their countries - although that hangs in the balance as they think we are voting on Ulster - future

[allmodcons]

This is how a business should react to the question of Scottish Independence.

Stay neutral and let democracy take it's course. How refreshing!

Compare this with the veiled threats to employees from the Executive Director of Barrhead Travel.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26871555

[PeeJay]

This is how a business should react to the question of Scottish Independence.

Stay neutral and let democracy take it's course. How refreshing!

Compare this with the veiled threats to employees from the Executive Director of Barrhead Travel.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26871555

Not sure about this, after all this vote may affect companies and ultimately their operations: why shouldn't they voice an opinion one way or the other? Considering many companies lobby endlessly and surreptitiously within the democratic system to influence policy and the policymakers to suit their own business agendas, one has to wonder why you think they should (or would) remain neutral in this instance, particularly if they have a vested interest in a specific outcome ....

[allmodcons]

Not sure about this, after all this vote may affect companies and ultimately their operations: why shouldn't they voice an opinion one way or the other? Considering many companies lobby endlessly and surreptitiously within the democratic system to influence policy and the policymakers to suit their own business agendas, one has to wonder why you think they should (or would) remain neutral in this instance, particularly if they have a vested interest in a specific outcome ....

I don't mind them voicing an opinion when what they have to say is fair and balanced. The comments from the guy at Barrhead Travel really annoyed me. Here we had a blatant attempt by a businessman to place unnecessary worry/pressure on his hard working staff because Scottish Independence doesn't tie in with his own personal politics. Herein lies the problem with business interventions. Many (not all) are motivated by the personal opinion of the Owner or Chief Executive (i.e. - rather than take an open minded view on the debate around Scottish Independence what he get are the personal politics of the individuals at the head of these companies).

FWIW, this goes some way to explaining and supporting my own personal view on business interventions in the debate.

http://derekbateman.co.uk/

[marinello59]

This is how a business should react to the question of Scottish Independence.

Stay neutral and let democracy take it's course. How refreshing!

Compare this with the veiled threats to employees from the Executive Director of Barrhead Travel.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26871555

So the SNP's love in with Murdoch is still going then. :devil:

[allmodcons]

So the SNP's love in with Murdoch is still going then. :devil:

If neutrality is a 'love in' you must be right!

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't mind them voicing an opinion when what they have to say is fair and balanced. The comments from the guy at Barrhead Travel really annoyed me. Here we had a blatant attempt by a businessman to place unnecessary worry/pressure on his hard working staff because Scottish Independence doesn't tie in with his own personal politics. Herein lies the problem with business interventions. Many (not all) are motivated by the personal opinion of the Owner or Chief Executive (i.e. - rather than take an open minded view on the debate around Scottish Independence what he get are the personal politics of the individuals at the head of these companies).

FWIW, this goes some way to explaining and supporting my own personal view on business interventions in the debate.

http://derekbateman.co.uk/

I hope that an independent Scotland can address the issue of low pay, as this expression has almost become an acceptable way of excusing exploitation of workers.

As for Barrhead, a travel firm that can't cope with changing borders is hardly the sort of company that we need to hang onto.

[steakbake]

As for Barrhead, a travel firm that can't cope with changing borders is hardly the sort of company that we need to hang onto.

That's a great point. What is it about these very multinational companies that makes dealing with a border which can be traded across in about 220 other examples world wide, uniquely difficult in the Scottish example?

[marinello59]

If neutrality is a 'love in' you must be right!

It was meant as a light hearted remark. Surely this doesn't have to be a humour free zone.

[Beefster]

As for Barrhead, a travel firm that can't cope with changing borders is hardly the sort of company that we need to hang onto.

I think an independent Scotland will need to retain all the employers it can.

[steakbake]

I think an independent Scotland will need to retain all the employers it can.

Same in any other county or region.

We had companies imploding at the prospect of a Labour government in 97, of staying out or going into the euro, at devolution and now at independence. And guess what? They're still trading in the environment in which they find themselves.

[Beefster]

Same in any other county or region.

We had companies imploding at the prospect of a Labour government in 97, of staying out or going into the euro, at devolution and now at independence. And guess what? They're still trading in the environment in which they find themselves.

My argument was with the "hardly the sort of company we need to hang onto" comment. You're arguing against a position I didn't take.

[allmodcons]

It was meant as a light hearted remark. Surely this doesn't have to be a humour free zone.

I guessed that with the devil thing.
I know you have a good sense of humour M59, but I couldn't resist a wee reply.

[green glory]

Today's gathering of Yes campaigners at Wester Hailes. 212 in total. Immensely proud to be part of this .

12370

[lucky]

Today's gathering of Yes campaigners at Wester Hailes. 212 in total. Immensely proud to be part of this .

12370

Really good turn but not as many Better Together supporters that packed out the Festival Theatre last night for an Eddie Izzard gig.

[RIP]

That's me met 18 Labour supporters now that are voting Yes. So much for Project Fear trying to make us think it's all about the wee jambo.

[steakbake]

That's me met 18 Labour supporters now that are voting Yes. So much for Project Fear trying to make us think it's all about the wee jambo.

I have a few older relatives who are resolutely no voters, one or two people my own age as well but the majority of people I know are stick on Yes voters, quite a few of them a surprise as well.

A new poll for the Sunday Times puts things neck and neck.

Have to say that I'm feeling much more confident of a yes vote in September and this will come down to who has the momentum in the final stretch.

[Northernhibee]

That's me met 18 Labour supporters now that are voting Yes. So much for Project Fear trying to make us think it's all about the wee jambo.

Then again the yes campaign refer to Better Together as "Be-Tory Together" to try and associate David Cameron with the no campaign. Neither side is innocent.

[RIP]

Then again the yes campaign refer to Better Together as "Be-Tory Together" to try and associate David Cameron with the no campaign. Neither side is innocent.

Really. That's a new one!

BBC Radio Scotland this morning was saying there had been an increase in support for Alex Salmond. I think they meant independence.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think an independent Scotland will need to retain all the employers it can.

What even ones that are run by ****wits? A travel agent that can't deal with borders is a must, if that's the case.

I'm still undecided, but I just like to flag up bogus arguments from both sides. Stupidity isn't confined to the No side, but that is a fairly pitiful point they've tried to score. Travel agent threats to quit Scotland, doesn't scare me.

[Beefster]

What even ones that are run by ****wits?

Yes. I'm fairly sure the last thing an independent Scotland needs is 800 people losing their jobs.

[sauzee_4]

What even ones that are run by ****wits? A travel agent that can't deal with borders is a must, if that's the case.

I'm still undecided, but I just like to flag up bogus arguments from both sides. Stupidity isn't confined to the No side, but that is a fairly pitiful point they've tried to score. Travel agent threats to quit Scotland, doesn't scare me.

Hi Filled Rolls, why are you undecided? (Apologies if you've already explained it previously).

For myself, the opportunity to have self-governance (rather than a government none of us have voted for- 50% of our lives we have had this) trumps most other arguments, especially as all of the reading I've done on the topic points to us being perfectly financially viable. (Standard and Poor's report on an Independent Scotland is particularly interesting)

We've paid £64 billion more to the UK treasury over the last 30 years than we have had spent on us.

and in 2011/2012 We raised 9.9% of all UK taxes here but only 9.3% was spent on us, £4.4 billion is the difference between the two figures. Which, unless my maths is wrong is the equivalent of every worker in Scotland handing £1760 to the UK government and saying hey keep that don't bother spending it here.

The money that we would save on the almost constant wars we go into and upgrading trident would help too.

I also feel having a smaller population means all our votes carry more weight so we should end up with a Government which is far more accountable to the people, a better form of democracy :)

[Booker5time]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66ng2T5i3Y#t=44

Anyone Know anything about the Scottish defense league. This guy sounds like a pure cretin and going by his other videos he a hibs fan too:rolleyes:

[green glory]

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66ng2T5i3Y#t=44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66ng2T5i3Y) Anyone Know anything about the Scottish defense league. This guy sounds like a pure cretin and going by his other videos he a hibs fan too:rolleyes:

Yes. They're ****, albeit in smaller numbers than their verminous brethren in the EDL south of the border.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes. I'm fairly sure the last thing an independent Scotland needs is 800 people losing their jobs.

I'm not sure they would, but anyway Independence, or not, I'd like to see a bit more Kahoonas from the guys that run our businesses. Are they really that hopeless that they can't adapt to new situations.

Respect where it's due, derision when it's deserved. Has being part of the RoI hampered or benefitted Ryanair, and Primark. My guess is "neither" because they are run by guys that can size up a situation and plan around it.

i honestly can't see how Barrhead Travel, would be any different if they were run by somebody with guts, rather than a forelock tugging lackey. Sorry, but his defeatist attitude is not Scottish, either in, or out of the Union.

But, of course, were not genetically programmed to deal with change.

[Saorsa]

Yes. They're ****, albeit in smaller numbers than their verminous brethren in the EDL south of the border.Goes about accusing Scottish nationalists of being racist and anti English then starts banging on in one of his other videos about immigrants living in Scotland having a vote. I wonder who the racist is. Thick as **** in the neck of a bottle, glad him and his kind ain't on our side.

[Booker5time]

Goes about accusing Scottish nationalists of being racist and anti English then starts banging on in one of his other videos about immigrants living in Scotland having a vote. I wonder who the racist is. Thick as **** in the neck of a bottle, glad him and his kind ain't on our side.

He posted a video from the east stand at a hibs v Hearts game. Who ever sitting near him, I feel sorry for. :bitchy:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Hi Filled Rolls, why are you undecided? (Apologies if you've already explained it previously).

For myself, the opportunity to have self-governance (rather than a government none of us have voted for- 50% of our lives we have had this) trumps most other arguments, especially as all of the reading I've done on the topic points to us being perfectly financially viable. (Standard and Poor's report on an Independent Scotland is particularly interesting)

We've paid £64 billion more to the UK treasury over the last 30 years than we have had spent on us.

and in 2011/2012 We raised 9.9% of all UK taxes here but only 9.3% was spent on us, £4.4 billion is the difference between the two figures. Which, unless my maths is wrong is the equivalent of every worker in Scotland handing £1760 to the UK government and saying hey keep that don't bother spending it here.

The money that we would save on the almost constant wars we go into and upgrading trident would help too.

I also feel having a smaller population means all our votes carry more weight so we should end up with a Government which is far more accountable to the people, a better form of democracy :)

Put it this way, both sides are yet to convince me.

[allmodcons]

I hope that an independent Scotland can address the issue of low pay, as this expression has almost become an acceptable way of excusing exploitation of workers.

As for Barrhead, a travel firm that can't cope with changing borders is hardly the sort of company that we need to hang onto.

I hope so too. Half the battle with any business is gaining a mutual respect between owner and staff. Good pay and conditions are critical in obtaining mutual respect.

It wouldn't appear that Bill Munro at Barrhead Travel has much respect for his staff.




I'm not sure they would, but anyway Independence, or not, I'd like to see a bit more Kahoonas from the guys that run our businesses. Are they really that hopeless that they can't adapt to new situations.

Respect where it's due, derision when it's deserved. Has being part of the RoI hampered or benefitted Ryanair, and Primark. My guess is "neither" because they are run by guys that can size up a situation and plan around it.

i honestly can't see how Barrhead Travel, would be any different if they were run by somebody with guts, rather than a forelock tugging lackey. Sorry, but his defeatist attitude is not Scottish, either in, or out of the Union.

But, of course, were not genetically programmed to deal with change.

Any business that can't cope with change is in trouble. This, of course, is not what it's about for Bill Munro.

[marinello59]

I have a few older relatives who are resolutely no voters, one or two people my own age as well but the majority of people I know are stick on Yes voters, quite a few of them a surprise as well.

A new poll for the Sunday Times puts things neck and neck.

Have to say that I'm feeling much more confident of a yes vote in September and this will come down to who has the momentum in the final stretch.

I think the result will be much closer than the polls are predicting. And like you I am feeling much more confident of getting a Yes vote.

[steakbake]

I think the result will be much closer than the polls are predicting. And like you I am feeling much more confident of getting a Yes vote.

I'm overseas at the moment in the Netherlands. The people I've spoken to so far here are surprised that Yes isn't well in front. They cannot see why we wouldn't vote for independence. One guy said the UK would become the new Benelux - close cooperation and a bit of a political bloc internationally, lots of social and historical connections but three very separate and distinct countries... I liked that analogy.

[danhibees1875]

I'm in the yes camp.

However, I find myself in a massive minority with that stance. I'd say 80-90% of the people I speak to are no voters.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I hope so too. Half the battle with any business is gaining a mutual respect between owner and staff. Good pay and conditions are critical in obtaining mutual respect.

It wouldn't appear that Bill Munro at Barrhead Travel has much respect for his staff.





Any business that can't cope with change is in trouble. This, of course, is not what it's about for Bill Munro.

Whats troubling me about these arguments is that the "Business Community" has cried wolf before. The Scottish people have to be very wary of allowing the likes of these people influence the democratic process.

Cave in here, and they'll be talking about a maximum wage next.

[Beefster]

they'll be talking about a maximum wage next.

No 'they' won't.

[green glory]

I see Foulkes is being drafted in by Anas Sarwar to bolster the No campaign.

That'll work.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No 'they' won't.

It was a joke FFS. It's a hell of a job that people can't see the obvious humour in this debate. Two sides blowing raspberries at each other over the garden fence.

[allmodcons]

Whats troubling me about these arguments is that the "Business Community" has cried wolf before. The Scottish people have to be very wary of allowing the likes of these people influence the democratic process.

Cave in here, and they'll be talking about a maximum wage next.

You're spot on with this comment.

No doubt, those supporting No will say they are entitled to express their concerns, but what we have here is a small number of very wealthy individuals concerning themselves with their own personal wealth.

The argument is pretty much - why I would vote for change when I'm making a fortune out the present system.

It never ceases to amaze me how greed plays in the minds of those who already have more than they need.

Standard Life - fined £2.45 million by FSA (as it was then) for telling lies to it's own customers.
Weir Group - fined £3 million for breaching UN sanctions on trade with Iraq.
BP - fined $18 billion (yes billion) for telling outright lies about oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
RBS - Where do I begin?

Before anybody tries to tell me I'm 'playing the man', I think, in the circumstances, it's fair to point out that these companies are not exactly bastions of democracy, honesty and trust!

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're spot on with this comment.

No doubt, those supporting No will say they are entitled to express their concerns, but what we have here is a small number of very wealthy individuals concerning themselves with their own personal wealth.

The argument is pretty much - why I would vote for change when I'm making a fortune out the present system.

It never ceases to amaze me how greed plays in the minds of those who already have more than they need.

Standard Life - fined £2.45 million by FSA (as it was then) for telling lies to it's own customers.
Weir Group - fined £3 million for breaching UN sanctions on trade with Iraq.
BP - fined $18 billion (yes billion) for telling outright lies about oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
RBS - Where do I begin?

Before anybody tries to tell me I'm 'playing the man', I think, in the circumstances, it's fair to point out that these companies are not exactly bastions of democracy, honesty and trust!

Such people will stop at nothing to protect their wealth.

[allmodcons]

http://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Banks_(businessman)#Philanthropy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4139514.stm

Stop at nothing, these vultures.

PS My apologies if I've missed another joke.

I commend these individuals for putting something back, but there is no denying corporate greed exists and, in its ugliest form, doesn't care where (Weir in Iraq) or how (BP in Mexico) it operates in the pursuit of profit.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I commend these individuals for putting something back, but there is no denying corporate greed exists and, in its ugliest form, doesn't care where (Weir in Iraq) or how (BP in Mexico) it operates in the pursuit of profit.

Tom Hunter seems like a good guy, but for every Tom Hunter there's a James Goldsmith. It pays to be open minded about people's motivation.

[sauzee_4]

I really mean this with the greatest respect to anyone who may be voting no, but has anyone actually came up with a reason we should vote no which can't easily be countered?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I really mean this with the greatest respect to anyone who may be voting no, but has anyone actually came up with a reason we should vote no which can't easily be countered?

War with England?

[green glory]

War with England?

Dinnae be daft.

[lucky]

I really mean this with the greatest respect to anyone who may be voting no, but has anyone actually came up with a reason we should vote no which can't easily be countered?

Or vice versa

[GreenLake]

I would like to see Scotland follow the example of Iceland. Kick the f&kin bankers out. Tolerance and leniency to banker fraud is identical to tolerance and leniency to HMFC fraud. FACT.:greengrin

A slap on the wrist to a fraudulent banker is like a slap on the wrist to a Yam. No big banking executive has gone to prison since 2008. No Jambo executive has gone to prison since 2005.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Dinnae be daft.

Cant think of many other arguments that can't be countered.

[sauzee_4]

http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by sauzee_4 http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=3961043#post3961043)
I really mean this with the greatest respect to anyone who may be voting no, but has anyone actually came up with a reason we should vote no which can't easily be countered?



Or vice versa

Well I haven't heard a counter argument to this:

We have the choice between continuing to suffer a government we do not like (6 out of the last 11 elections won by the Tories) or electing a government of our own which is more accountable to the people of Scotland.

Scotland is a more left wing country than England, but we've suffered right wing governments 50% of our lives, surely we would be happier getting it our own way? Having governments which are sympathetic to our own views and beliefs?

The Scots have very little say in who gets elected to the UK government. so by saying No on September the 18th are we not passing up the opportunity to finally have control over who governs us? (i.e politicians who are accountable to us?)

The Tory's have no reason to give a sh** about Scotland as our votes don't matter, well after independence they will matter.

Willing to change my mind should somebody actually counter this point, and others :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Another Lord George (not Pishstains this time, but Robertson, the one who predicted nationalism would be "stone dead" by now):

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/08/scottish-independence-lord-robertson-uk-global-status

:crazy:

[Saorsa]

Another Lord George (not Pishstains this time, but Robertson, the one who predicted nationalism would be "stone dead" by now):

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/08/scottish-independence-lord-robertson-uk-global-status

:crazy:well he's persuaded me tae change my mind. :agree:
























tool



These people just make me laugh, :hilarious nothing good tae say, just scaremongering slavers. Passports, border patrols and barbed wire check points with guards and now the catalyst for world terrorism and disintegration. Talking as though the UK is still some great world power, the UK is nowt mair than a poodle for the US.

Scotland :- the only place in the world that cannae exist as a country without the whole world descending in tae chaos because the whole world trembles before the mighty UK. Dae me a favour. :hilarious

Keep it up though :thumbsup: I enjoy the laughs.





another one that's feart of getting his snout kicked out of the Lords trough mair like, just like the pishy breeks george.

[HarpyHibby]

Starting campaigning this weekend with Yes East Lothian, we will be down in East Linton with a stall and are planning to leaflet as many houses as possible. Looking forward to it, I decided to volunteer as i wouldn't be able to live with myself 20 years down the line after a No vote, knowing that I hadn't done anything to try and better the country for my future children and grandchildren!

Have a look through their facebook page, theres plenty going on including information evenings throughout the county.

[green glory]

Starting campaigning this weekend with Yes East Lothian, we will be down in East Linton with a stall and are planning to leaflet as many houses as possible. Looking forward to it, I decided to volunteer as i wouldn't be able to live with myself 20 years down the line after a No vote, knowing that I hadn't done anything to try and better the country for my future children and grandchildren! Have a look through their facebook page, theres plenty going on including information evenings throughout the county.

I do a lot of leafleting for Yes Edinburgh West. Had my first experience of canvassing on Saturday morning. Still a lot if undecideds, but for the most part happy to talk about it and look at info. Yes to No on my patch was approximately 4.5/1. Mind you there was one woman who shut the door in our face before we'd even opened our mouths.

One the guys was doing the flats in Wester Hailes and didn't get a single No voter.

[sauzee_4]

I do a lot of leafleting for Yes Edinburgh West. Had my first experience of canvassing on Saturday morning. Still a lot if undecideds, but for the most part happy to talk about it and look at info. Yes to No on my patch was approximately 4.5/1. Mind you there was one woman who shut the door in our face before we'd even opened our mouths.

One the guys was doing the flats in Wester Hailes and didn't get a single No voter.

Great news guys, need to find a way of hitting these "undecided's" though, there appear to be a few out there!

I'm working on a few in my family :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

I do a lot of leafleting for Yes Edinburgh West. Had my first experience of canvassing on Saturday morning. Still a lot if undecideds, but for the most part happy to talk about it and look at info. Yes to No on my patch was approximately 4.5/1. Mind you there was one woman who shut the door in our face before we'd even opened our mouths.

One the guys was doing the flats in Wester Hailes and didn't get a single No voter.

That suggests to me that Labour will rue the day they got involved in this.

[Hibrandenburg]

[/B]
That suggests to me that Labour will rue the day they got involved in this.

Good, then maybe they'll see sense and move back to where they should be in an independent Scotland. The only difference between them and the Tories is the colour of their ties.

[Alex Trager]

Currently arguing on blue moon quite somewhat. There is a lot of ignorance down south. I think I'm the only yes voter on it mind you the majority are English. Some help would be appreciated ;)

[lucky]

Another day another report warning of financial problems in the event of a yes vote. Also gives reasons why there will be no currency union

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/claim-scots-face-23bn-in-debt-repayments-after-independence.23916385

[ronaldo7]

Another day another report warning of financial problems in the event of a yes vote. Also gives reasons why there will be no currency union

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/claim-scots-face-23bn-in-debt-repayments-after-independence.23916385

Can you post up the whole article please so we have a chance to respond to the "Claim". I'm a yes voter and can't afford a pound:aok:

I wonder if the Herald know about this http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/13/uk-britain-scotland-debt-idUKBREA0B0N820140113

[ronaldo7]

Seems all the scare stories are working. The polls are tightening:greengrin

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/270686-yes-campaign-hails-poll-which-puts-support-for-independence-at-41/

[sauzee_4]

Another day another report warning of financial problems in the event of a yes vote. Also gives reasons why there will be no currency union

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/claim-scots-face-23bn-in-debt-repayments-after-independence.23916385

Hi lucky, you haven't replied to my post earlier, do you have a counter argument to the one I put forward?

On this, Standard and Poors have recently said Scotland could 'easily' float it's own currency 'without any major problems'. The Fiscal Commission has put forward the pound without a Currency Union as a perfectly feasible option too, so why are we to be scared of having no currency union?

It's a prefferred option not a necessity.

Again my previous point regarding no more Tories and a government we actually voted for was a far more fundamental point but you appear reluctant to counter it?

Apologies if you've just missed it

[Beefster]

On this, Standard and Poors have recently said Scotland could 'easily' float it's own currency 'without any major problems'. The Fiscal Commission has put forward the pound without a Currency Union as a perfectly feasible option too, so why are we to be scared of having no currency union?

AFAIK no-one has claimed we should be scared of our own currency. The issue is with the SNP saying that currency union will happen.

[sauzee_4]

AFAIK no-one has claimed we should be scared of our own currency. The issue is with the SNP saying that currency union will happen.

Is that a reason to vote No? The facts are before you, if we don't get a Currency Union we will be perfectly ok. And the SNP can get emptied after the vote😀

[Beefster]

Is that a reason to vote No? The facts are before you, if we don't get a Currency Union we will be perfectly ok. And the SNP can get emptied after the vote

You argued against a point that I don't think has been made on this thread. I was just letting you know.

[sauzee_4]

You argued against a point that I don't think has been made on this thread. I was just letting you know.


I asked a question, is the SNP's stance on currency a reason to vote no, when the evidence suggests a Scottish Currency or use of the pound outwith a union would be both be perfectly viable?

[stoneyburn hibs]

So far this week we have had Lord Robertson saying a yes vote would be cataclysmic for the western world. Followed by scaremongering that our energy bills will rise post yes vote(they would fall) in Scotland.

Another fine example of how we would be better split from London is highlighted again this week, Maria Miller and her expenses.

[lucky]

Hi lucky, you haven't replied to my post earlier, do you have a counter argument to the one I put forward?

On this, Standard and Poors have recently said Scotland could 'easily' float it's own currency 'without any major problems'. The Fiscal Commission has put forward the pound without a Currency Union as a perfectly feasible option too, so why are we to be scared of having no currency union?

It's a prefferred option not a necessity.

Again my previous point regarding no more Tories and a government we actually voted for was a far more fundamental point but you appear reluctant to counter it?

Apologies if you've just missed it

Must have missed it. Think others have now replied. In the event of independence I would want our own currency. It would be fool hardy to have economic control over to another state. Before anyone jumps in, at present The 4 nations of the UK are represented at westminister.

[marinello59]

So far this week we have had Lord Robertson saying a yes vote would be cataclysmic for the western world. Followed by scaremongering that our energy bills will rise post yes vote(they would fall) in Scotland.

Another fine example of how we would be better split from London is highlighted again this week, Maria Miller and her expenses.

That's just an example of politicians greed rather than a reason to vote Yes. We have several home grown offenders including Salmond himself.
Lord Robertson's stuff is bonkers though. It's too daft to be scaremongering.

[sauzee_4]

Must have missed it. Think others have now replied. In the event of independence I would want our own currency. It would be fool hardy to have economic control over to another state. Before anyone jumps in, at present The 4 nations of the UK are represented at westminister.

Thanks, I'm no expert on currency, can only really go on what the experts say and they seem to be saying a currency union should be 1st choice. I personally wouldn't be surprised to see us launch our own currency eventually.

I was really wanting an answer to the question though, why should we put up with the Tories any longer when we don't need to? Scotland is a left wing country with left wing views but nobody at Westminster represents these views. As someone said before Labour might aswell be called the Red Tories

[lucky]

Thanks, I'm no expert on currency, can only really go on what the experts say and they seem to be saying a currency union should be 1st choice. I personally wouldn't be surprised to see us launch our own currency eventually.

I was really wanting an answer to the question though, why should we put up with the Tories any longer when we don't need to? Scotland is a left wing country with left wing views but nobody at Westminster represents these views. As someone said before Labour might aswell be called the Red Tories

This is not a vote about the Tories. Not that long ago Scotland always voted Tory. In the event of a yes vote the political landscape will change and none of us know if it will be a left wing country or not. I would argue that the SNPs proposal to cut corporation tax is more right wing than the Tories

[sauzee_4]

This is not a vote about the Tories. Not that long ago Scotland always voted Tory. In the event of a yes vote the political landscape will change and none of us know if it will be a left wing country or not. I would argue that the SNPs proposal to cut corporation tax is more right wing than the Tories

But we as people are left-wing so you would expect our government to reflect that, or they wouldn't be elected.

And you are speaking about the SNP again who are irrelevant, I think I get the point you are making though but it is flawed as the SNP are clearly on the whole a left-leaning party

[allmodcons]

That's just an example of politicians greed rather than a reason to vote Yes. We have several home grown offenders including Salmond himself.
Lord Robertson's stuff is bonkers though. It's too daft to be scaremongering.

Can you provide some evidence in support of this statement please?

[allmodcons]

AFAIK no-one has claimed we should be scared of our own currency. The issue is with the SNP saying that currency union will happen.


I asked a question, is the SNP's stance on currency a reason to vote no, when the evidence suggests a Scottish Currency or use of the pound outwith a union would be both be perfectly viable?

I am certain (yes certain) in my mind that an iScotland will be using the pound either as 1) part of a formal currency arrangement with rUK or 2) pegged to sterling with no national debt. I don’t buy the line about us defaulting on debt and being treated by the International Money Markets as some kind of pariah state. How can an iScotland be accused of defaulting on debt where the UK has taken responsibility for the full debt obligation? IMO International Money Markets will operate wherever they can make a profit.

[sauzee_4]

I am certain (yes certain) in my mind that an iScotland will be using the pound either as 1) part of a formal currency arrangement with rUK or 2) pegged to sterling with no national debt. I don’t buy the line about us defaulting on debt and being treated by the International Money Markets as some kind of pariah state. How can an iScotland be accused of defaulting on debt where the UK has taken responsibility for the full debt obligation? IMO International Money Markets will operate wherever they can make a profit.

Agreed

[marinello59]

Can you provide some evidence in support of this statement please?

Of his greed? I am pretty sure the evidence is easily found with a quick Google if you care to see it.
I'll summarise though. During his time at Westminster MP's were entitled to claim up to £400 a month for food, no questions asked. Which Salmond duly did. Including a couple of months whilst the Parliament was in recess. Given that he was also a MSP at the time his attendance down there was minimal making his claims all the more remarkable. He didn't break the rules but any reasonable person would surely consider his actions on the greedy side. Don't you?
Or how about his Westminster 'redundancy ' package? Over 60k of taxpayers money claimed in order to ease himself back in to ordinary life after serving as an elected politician. Only he was continuing to serve as an elected politician at Holyrood. He didn't break any rules there either and claimed that it would be remarkable if anybody didn't accept that money. Well it would have been if they weren't going to carry on in another Parliament. I reckon that's greedy too. Salmond being the clever political animal that he is though sought to lessen any disapproval at accepting all that tax payers money by donating half of it to charity. Very commendable expect the charity was named after his late Mother and the money was all dispersed in his own North East power base. I would guess that every MSP would love to have over 20K of taxpayers money to do good works in their own constituency.
I don't care if it Labour/Tory/LibDem or SNP, every single one of them has members who have dipped their snouts in to the public trough.

[marinello59]

I am certain (yes certain) in my mind that an iScotland will be using the pound either as 1) part of a formal currency arrangement with rUK or 2) pegged to sterling with no national debt. I don’t buy the line about us defaulting on debt and being treated by the International Money Markets as some kind of pariah state. How can an iScotland be accused of defaulting on debt where the UK has taken responsibility for the full debt obligation? IMO International Money Markets will operate wherever they can make a profit.

You forgot option 3, using the Euro, agreed as part of the negotiations to minimise any disruption to our continued membership of the EU. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[Beefster]

I am certain (yes certain) in my mind that an iScotland...

My six-year-old son's certain that he's Tony Stark and that it's only a matter of time before he invents the Iron Man suit. It encourages him to see maths and science as important and aspire to be a scientist when he's older though so we just leave him to it.

P.S. I find it mildly amusing that you can drag up muck on politicians and business bosses at the drop of a hat but need someone else to find you evidence of Salmond's questionable expenses.

[allmodcons]

My six-year-old son's certain that he's Tony Stark and that it's only a matter of time before he invents the Iron Man suit. It encourages him to see maths and science as important and aspire to be a scientist when he's older though so we just leave him to it.

P.S. I find it mildly amusing that you can drag up muck on politicians and business bosses at the drop of a hat but need someone else to find you evidence of Salmond's questionable expenses.

Top response. You could take a lesson from your son, you're sounding about as infantile as a 3 year old.

I don't 'drag up muck', as you put it. If you're referring to the fines I listed in respect of Standard Life, Weir Group and BP you'll find they are all factual.

I know it's easy to drag up muck on politicians, so I rarely (if ever) do it. Show me a single post where I have 'dragged up muck' on a politician.

[sauzee_4]

My six-year-old son's certain that he's Tony Stark and that it's only a matter of time before he invents the Iron Man suit. It encourages him to see maths and science as important and aspire to be a scientist when he's older though so we just leave him to it.

P.S. I find it mildly amusing that you can drag up muck on politicians and business bosses at the drop of a hat but need someone else to find you evidence of Salmond's questionable expenses.

Hi Beefster,

http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by sauzee_4 http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=3965272#post3965272)
I asked a question, is the SNP's stance on currency a reason to vote no, when the evidence suggests a Scottish Currency or use of the pound outwith a union would be both be perfectly viable?

[allmodcons]

You forgot option 3, using the Euro, agreed as part of the negotiations to minimise any disruption to our continued membership of the EU. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

The Euro isn't as untouchable as some commentators are suggesting. At the risk of getting a ridiculous response again I am certain (yes certain) that the Euro will not be adpoted post a Yes vote.

Busy just now, but will get back to you on your Salmond rant :greengrin

[green glory]

@18SEPT2014: James Kelly Labour MSP expenses for 2012/13 = £21,827.28
@AlexSalmond First Minister of #Scotland expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68 #YES2014

@18SEPT2014: James Kelly Labour MSP expenses for 2012/13 = £21,827.28
@AlexSalmond First Minister of #Scotland expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68 #YES2014

[green glory]

@18SEPT2014: James Kelly Labour MSP expenses for 2012/13 = £21,827.28 @AlexSalmond First Minister of #Scotland expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68 #YES2014 @18SEPT2014: James Kelly Labour MSP expenses for 2012/13 = £21,827.28 @AlexSalmond First Minister of #Scotland expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68 #YES2014

Oops meant to post this too, phone playing up:

@18SEPT2014: FM Jack McConnell expenses for 2005/06 = £16,447.03
@AlexSalmond Current FM expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68
Go work that out! #YES2014

[Beefster]

Hi Beefster,

http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by sauzee_4 http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=3965272#post3965272)
I asked a question, is the SNP's stance on currency a reason to vote no, when the evidence suggests a Scottish Currency or use of the pound outwith a union would be both be perfectly viable?

Currency has very little to do with my voting intentions.

Everyone else is perfectly entitled to vote on whatever basis they want so yes, it may be a valid reason for someone else's vote.

[Beefster]

Top response. You could take a lesson from your son, you're sounding about as infantile as a 3 year old.

That's all very well but he's six.

If it takes an infantile response to get over the absurdity of using "I don't have any evidence, I'm just certain it will happen" as a debating point, so be it.

[marinello59]

The Euro isn't as untouchable as some commentators are suggesting. At the risk of getting a ridiculous response again I am certain (yes certain) that the Euro will not be adpoted post a Yes vote.

Busy just now, but will get back to you on your Salmond rant :greengrin

Rant? You asked for evidence of the mans greed that you could easily have found yourself. My point is that an Independent Scotland will not magically make greedy politicians disappear.

[sauzee_4]

That's all very well but he's six.

If it takes an infantile response to get over the absurdity of using "I don't have any evidence, I'm just certain it will happen" as a debating point, so be it.

Ach well, there will be no more Tory governments in an independent Scotland, unless we want one. There is some certainty for you

A government which takes from the working classes and gives to the rich is not welcome here

[PeeJay]

The Euro isn't as untouchable as some commentators are suggesting. At the risk of getting a ridiculous response again I am certain (yes certain) that the Euro will not be adpoted post a Yes vote.

Busy just now, but will get back to you on your Salmond rant :greengrin

May not be untouchable, but it is a long way down the road. Pretty sure that Scotland (an independent Scotland) cannot adopt the euro as its currency. It would have to be a member of the ERM and that would entail Scotland already having it's own currency ... (pound sterling is obviously not part of the ERM either) ...

[marinello59]

Oops meant to post this too, phone playing up:

@18SEPT2014: FM Jack McConnell expenses for 2005/06 = £16,447.03
@AlexSalmond Current FM expenses for 2012/13 = £11.636.68
Go work that out! #YES2014

Both First Ministers in our devolved Parliament at the time of their claims . I don't see the relvance. Or are you merely making the point that SNP = GOOD, everybody else = BAD. This isn't about the SNP is it?:confused:

[Beefster]

A government which takes from the working classes and gives to the rich is not welcome here

I'm no fan of the current UK government but stuff like this is just beyond parody.

[allmodcons]

That's all very well but he's six.

If it takes an infantile response to get over the absurdity of using "I don't have any evidence, I'm just certain it will happen" as a debating point, so be it.

Debate then!

What currency do you think an iScotland will adopt post a Yes vote if not the pound sterling in one of the two formats suggested in my earlier post?

[green glory]

I'm no fan of the current UK government but stuff like this is just beyond parody.

The Royal Mail was privatised and the biggest beneficiary was Gideon Osborne's best man.

The licenses for fracking across the UK are being issued. Gideon Osborne's father in law's business interests include fracking.

ATOS has given the Conservative Party £1.3m in donations, has received £3bn in contracts and are ruling people fit to work who are terminally ill.

Around £1.5bn in NHS contracts have been awarded to Conservative Party donors from Lansdowne Partners to Circle Health. The NHS is in the process of being dismembered and privatised south of the border, with Tory donors the main beneficiaries.

I think it's fair to stay they're stealing from the poor to give to the rich.

[Beefster]

The Royal Mail was privatised and the biggest beneficiary was Gideon Osborne's best man.

The licenses for fracking across the UK are being issued. Gideon Osborne's father in law's business interests include fracking.

ATOS has given the Conservative Party £1.3m in donations, has received £3bn in contracts and are ruling people fit to work who are terminally ill.

Around £1.5bn in NHS contracts have been awarded to Conservative Party donors from Lansdowne Partners to Circle Health. The NHS is in the process of being dismembered and privatised south of the border, with Tory donors the main beneficiaries.

I think it's fair to stay they're stealing from the poor to give to the rich.

There probably are valid complaints/concerns/questions in there. It's the likes of "stealing from the poor to give to the rich", "the biggest beneficiary..." etc rhetoric that I object to.

I could pick holes in all of your claims whether they are based on an element of truth but exaggerated, ignore subsequent events (e.g., Atos) or how you could likely find any government decision that will benefit someone associated with a politician.

Politicians are gits. That's not unique to Westminster, the Tories or a consequence of being in the UK. FFS, Salmond's been caught sucking up to Murdoch and Trump at times.

[Beefster]

Debate then!

What currency do you think an iScotland will adopt post a Yes vote if not the pound sterling in one of the two formats suggested in my earlier post?

I have no idea and don't really care. IMHO the currency is a side issue. The main thing (for me) is the SNP's response to the affair. Rather than say "Well, we think a currency union will happen because it's for the best. However, if it doesn't, here's what we propose", they've just stuck their fingers in their ears and refusing to explain the alternatives to the population. For me, it just raises questions about the other stuff being promised.

Folk won't believe this but I was open to being persuaded (and may still be). I don't really see that big an issue with the UK in its current state (or further devolution) so need to be convinced about why my family, community, society (in that order) will be better off. However, I won't vote for some abstract notion of what might happen. I'm a details man whether I'm planning something, voting for something or whatever.

With the greatest of respect to fellow posters, I'm not going to be convinced by anyone on here. It needs to be those probably going to be running an independent Scotland. As far as I'm concerned, they're fundamentally failing at that.

[sauzee_4]

I have no idea and don't really care. IMHO the currency is a side issue. The main thing (for me) is the SNP's response to the affair. Rather than say "Well, we think a currency union will happen because it's for the best. However, if it doesn't, here's what we propose", they've just stuck their fingers in their ears and refusing to explain the alternatives to the population. For me, it just raises questions about the other stuff being promised.

Folk won't believe this but I was open to being persuaded (and may still be). I don't really see that big an issue with the UK in its current state (or further devolution) so need to be convinced about why my family, community, society (in that order) will be better off. However, I won't vote for some abstract notion of what might happen. I'm a details man whether I'm planning something, voting for something or whatever.

With the greatest of respect to fellow posters, I'm not going to be convinced by anyone on here. It needs to be those probably going to be running an independent Scotland. As far as I'm concerned, they're fundamentally failing at that.

You have my respect for putting your opinion across, an honest debate is the only way we'll come to the right answers.

My comments about taking from the poor and giving to the rich you surely can't dispute that is historically what the Tories have done more so than any other party?

I realise every policy benefits someone and I don't mean they're "stealing", I mean they've consistently implemented policies which favour the rich over the working classes.

I know you've said we can't persuade you, fine, but I'm going to try anyway :greengrin

You've asked how will your family be better off, well.. for 30 years we have paid in more to the UK treasury than we've received back, £64 billion more (£12,075 for every man, woman and child) This video gives you some great financials based on GERS figures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8cKHcZn60

I would love to hear your opinion on it

[Just Alf]

The currency issue isn't a deal breaker for me. Ideally I'd prefer one of the SNP's options c or d, the 1st 2 of an agreed union or alternatively using sterling regardless I'm less happy about.

[Just Alf]

Just to be clear c, I think was a pegged currency and d was floating? ...... On phone so can't link back to the commission report where it's laid out.

[ronaldo7]

I have no idea and don't really care. IMHO the currency is a side issue. The main thing (for me) is the SNP's response to the affair. Rather than say "Well, we think a currency union will happen because it's for the best. However, if it doesn't, here's what we propose", they've just stuck their fingers in their ears and refusing to explain the alternatives to the population. For me, it just raises questions about the other stuff being promised.

Folk won't believe this but I was open to being persuaded (and may still be). I don't really see that big an issue with the UK in its current state (or further devolution) so need to be convinced about why my family, community, society (in that order) will be better off. However, I won't vote for some abstract notion of what might happen. I'm a details man whether I'm planning something, voting for something or whatever.

With the greatest of respect to fellow posters, I'm not going to be convinced by anyone on here. It needs to be those probably going to be running an independent Scotland. As far as I'm concerned, they're fundamentally failing at that.

This has been available for a year. Seems it's not the Scottish Government who have their fingers in their ears. They have continually set out their position. If the Uk Government don't want to pre negotiate then what are they supposed to do.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00420804.pdf

[Beefster]

If the Uk Government don't want to pre negotiate then what are they supposed to do.

Come up with a plan B.

[ronaldo7]

Come up with a plan B.

Have you read the document? Plan a b c and d.

As the Uk Government are sticking their fingers in their ears and don't want to Pre negotiate, we'll just have to wait for the result.

[ronaldo7]

Decent piece from the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/10/scotland-likely-choose-independence-foreign-diplomats?CMP=twt_gu

[allmodcons]

Of his greed? I am pretty sure the evidence is easily found with a quick Google if you care to see it.
I'll summarise though. During his time at Westminster MP's were entitled to claim up to £400 a month for food, no questions asked. Which Salmond duly did. Including a couple of months whilst the Parliament was in recess. Given that he was also a MSP at the time his attendance down there was minimal making his claims all the more remarkable. He didn't break the rules but any reasonable person would surely consider his actions on the greedy side. Don't you?
Or how about his Westminster 'redundancy ' package? Over 60k of taxpayers money claimed in order to ease himself back in to ordinary life after serving as an elected politician. Only he was continuing to serve as an elected politician at Holyrood. He didn't break any rules there either and claimed that it would be remarkable if anybody didn't accept that money. Well it would have been if they weren't going to carry on in another Parliament. I reckon that's greedy too. Salmond being the clever political animal that he is though sought to lessen any disapproval at accepting all that tax payers money by donating half of it to charity. Very commendable expect the charity was named after his late Mother and the money was all dispersed in his own North East power base. I would guess that every MSP would love to have over 20K of taxpayers money to do good works in their own constituency.
I don't care if it Labour/Tory/LibDem or SNP, every single one of them has members who have dipped their snouts in to the public trough.

I can use Google perfectly well thanks. A search shows that this is the only claim of substance against Salmond.
I have copied and pasted the claim against Salmond made by the Telegraph. Salmond himself said he did not come out of the expenses scandal 'whiter than whiter', but to link the claim against Salmond to the Maria Miller case?

Claim: Scotland's first minister voted on only six days in the Commons in the financial year 2007/8 yet claimed £1,751.50 for food - over a third of the maximum permitted annual amount, the Sunday Telegraph said.



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45761000/jpg/_45761375_alexsalmond_pa.jpg


Mr Salmond, who is MP for Banff and Buchan as well as MSP for Gordon, also claimed £800 for August and September 2005, when Parliament was in recess, the paper added. It said he claimed £3,200, the maximum food allowance, for eight months in 2005/6. In the same year he received £54.75 for towels, £540 for bed linen, £650.40 in curtains and £1,093 for a bed. Authorities also docked £9 from his claim for a stay at a hotel in London in July 2005 because he had included drinks from hotel room mini bar.


Response: Mr Salmond said his overall claims were £9,000 below the limit of the Additional Cost Allowance. He said he had furnished a rented flat in London in 2005 with a "job lot" of used furniture at a cost of just over £2,000, "which must be a record low figure for the House of Commons". The £9 drinks were deducted from his reimbursement because, even though they were non-alcoholic, they were not specified as such, Mr Salmond added. He said he had placed his expenses for the financial year 2007/8 on the Scottish National Party's website and would do so with the 2008/9 data as soon as it was available. Mr Salmond said that, during 2007/08, he was in London for around 30 days - and said the correct figure for the food allowance was £1,391.50, which equated to £40 per day. He added that he still had a rented flat in London for the first nine months of the year. In terms of 2005/06, Mr Salmond said MPs still went to London during recess, and pointed out that bills incurred during the parliamentary session, such as Commons dining facilities, often fell during that period.


Rant? You asked for evidence of the mans greed that you could easily have found yourself. My point is that an Independent Scotland will not magically make greedy politicians disappear.

IMO the second part of your post was a rant. A clear case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[marinello59]

I can use Google perfectly well thanks. A search shows that this is the only claim of substance against Salmond.
I have copied and pasted the claim against Salmond made by the Telegraph. Salmond himself said he did not come out of the expenses scandal 'whiter than whiter', but to link the claim against Salmond to the Maria Miller case?

Claim: Scotland's first minister voted on only six days in the Commons in the financial year 2007/8 yet claimed £1,751.50 for food - over a third of the maximum permitted annual amount, the Sunday Telegraph said.



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45761000/jpg/_45761375_alexsalmond_pa.jpg


Mr Salmond, who is MP for Banff and Buchan as well as MSP for Gordon, also claimed £800 for August and September 2005, when Parliament was in recess, the paper added. It said he claimed £3,200, the maximum food allowance, for eight months in 2005/6. In the same year he received £54.75 for towels, £540 for bed linen, £650.40 in curtains and £1,093 for a bed. Authorities also docked £9 from his claim for a stay at a hotel in London in July 2005 because he had included drinks from hotel room mini bar.


Response: Mr Salmond said his overall claims were £9,000 below the limit of the Additional Cost Allowance. He said he had furnished a rented flat in London in 2005 with a "job lot" of used furniture at a cost of just over £2,000, "which must be a record low figure for the House of Commons". The £9 drinks were deducted from his reimbursement because, even though they were non-alcoholic, they were not specified as such, Mr Salmond added. He said he had placed his expenses for the financial year 2007/8 on the Scottish National Party's website and would do so with the 2008/9 data as soon as it was available. Mr Salmond said that, during 2007/08, he was in London for around 30 days - and said the correct figure for the food allowance was £1,391.50, which equated to £40 per day. He added that he still had a rented flat in London for the first nine months of the year. In terms of 2005/06, Mr Salmond said MPs still went to London during recess, and pointed out that bills incurred during the parliamentary session, such as Commons dining facilities, often fell during that period.



IMO the second part of your post was a rant. A clear case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

A rant if said about your beloved leader perhaps. Fair comment if said about anybody else I suspect. That's a cop out really isn't it. How was he damned if he didn't take the money in the first place?

A nice wee spin on things there though. If he spent 30 days in total in London should we assume that 20 of those days were during the recess as he claimed he ate his way through £800 worth of food then? I know, you will spin it out further to defend him because you can't see beyond party lines.
I'm with Beefster, most of them are total gits. An Independent Scotland won't cure politicians of greed but at least we will have them on a tighter leash.

[Just Alf]

This has been available for a year. Seems it's not the Scottish Government who have their fingers in their ears. They have continually set out their position. If the Uk Government don't want to pre negotiate then what are they supposed to do.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00420804.pdf

Thanks R7, that's the one i was thinking of. :agree:

[PeeJay]

A rant if said about your beloved leader perhaps. Fair comment if said about anybody else I suspect. That's a cop out really isn't it. How was he damned if he didn't take the money in the first place?

A nice wee spin on things there though. If he spent 30 days in total in London should we assume that 20 of those days were during the recess as he claimed he ate his way through £800 worth of food then? I know, you will spin it out further to defend him because you can't see beyond party lines.
I'm with Beefster, most of them are total gits. An Independent Scotland won't cure politicians of greed but at least we will have them on a tighter leash.
You sure about this? It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but how tight will that leash really be (if at all) in a parliament with a single chamber? What checks and balances does that really offer, how easy will it be to circumvent any effective oversight, I wonder - particularly where an independent Scotland and its politicians have access to so much wealth? Who will have them "on the leash" exactly?

[sauzee_4]

You sure about this? It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but how tight will that leash really be (if at all) in a parliament with a single chamber? What checks and balances does that really offer, how easy will it be to circumvent any effective oversight, I wonder - particularly where an independent Scotland and its politicians have access to so much wealth? Who will have them "on the leash" exactly?

Don't really understand your point. If a politician upsets the Scottish electorate they are likely to be out.

Or far more likely to be out than a UK minister upsetting the Scottish electorate.

[PeeJay]

Don't really understand your point. If a politician upsets the Scottish electorate they are likely to be out.

Or far more likely to be out than a UK minister upsetting the Scottish electorate.

The Scottish electorate may be changing from a parliamentary system with a second chamber (partly elected) to one with a single chamber (less oversight?) - how is it on a tighter leash? Seems to me the promise of a nation with a great deal of wealth at its disposal is open to possible corruption by those in power, particularly if they are "left to themselves" - Other resource-rich nations have parliaments too with electorates, yet the corruption levels are extraordinarily high in some particularly topical examples, with little opportunity for the electorate to effectively alter things in its favour through the ballot box: why will it be different in Scotland? Is corruption not an issue - have I been away too long?

[Beefster]

Don't really understand your point. If a politician upsets the Scottish electorate they are likely to be out.

Or far more likely to be out than a UK minister upsetting the Scottish electorate.

Eh? How does that work? If a UK minister, let's say Nick Clegg, upsets the Scottish/UK electorate, everyone relies on his constituents doing the right thing at the next opportunity. It'll be exactly the same in an independent Scotland.

[marinello59]

You sure about this? It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but how tight will that leash really be (if at all) in a parliament with a single chamber? What checks and balances does that really offer, how easy will it be to circumvent any effective oversight, I wonder - particularly where an independent Scotland and its politicians have access to so much wealth? Who will have them "on the leash" exactly?

The electorate.

[PeeJay]

The electorate.
The same lot that voted them in, you mean? :greengrin OK, but is that on its own enough, I wonder? How much money can I (e.g. as a corrupt politician) embezzle before the "the electorate "twigs" what's actually going on? Who's going to inform the electorate anyway? A lot of "oil money" can flow far too quickly into the wrong hands before the electorate gets around to pulling on that leash, surely ...

[sauzee_4]

The Scottish electorate may be changing from a parliamentary system with a second chamber (partly elected) to one with a single chamber (less oversight?) - how is it on a tighter leash? Seems to me the promise of a nation with a great deal of wealth at its disposal is open to possible corruption by those in power, particularly if they are "left to themselves" - Other resource-rich nations have parliaments too with electorates, yet the corruption levels are extraordinarily high in some particularly topical examples, with little opportunity for the electorate to effectively alter things in its favour through the ballot box: why will it be different in Scotland? Is corruption not an issue - have I been away too long?

I'm sorry you lost me with the "second chamber" chat but I've done my reading and I assume you mean the house of Lords.

Are we not able to set up a system ourselves which does a similar job to the Lords? (Excuse my ignorance)


Eh? How does that work? If a UK minister, let's say Nick Clegg, upsets the Scottish/UK electorate, everyone relies on his constituents doing the right thing at the next opportunity. It'll be exactly the same in an independent Scotland.

Nick Clegg can upset the Scottish electorate all he wants and still be voted into power if the rest of the UK decide they like him.

Alex Salmond can upset the Scottish electorate after September the 18th and get emptied as a result.

[sauzee_4]

Eh? How does that work? If a UK minister, let's say Nick Clegg, upsets the Scottish/UK electorate, everyone relies on his constituents doing the right thing at the next opportunity. It'll be exactly the same in an independent Scotland.


Have you watched my video and decided that your family will be better off yet? :greengrin

[Beefster]

Nick Clegg can upset the Scottish electorate all he wants and still be voted into power if the rest of the UK decide they like him.

Alex Salmond can upset the Scottish electorate after September the 18th and get emptied as a result.

Any politician will only be voted out if they upset their constituents. Salmond might upset East Lothian and Shetland in an independent Scotland, neither of whom voted for him, and still remain an MSP.


Have you watched my video and decided that your family will be better off yet? :greengrin

No! As I said earlier, I'd need the case made by a meaningful subset of the Scottish population. I wouldn't make my decision based on Standard Life's or Barrhead Travel's statements so a business man from a lobbying group isn't going to make any difference.

[sauzee_4]

Any politician will only be voted out if they upset their constituents. Salmond might upset East Lothian and Shetland in an independent Scotland, neither of whom voted for him, and still remain an MSP.



No! As I said earlier, I'd need the case made by a meaningful subset of the Scottish population. I wouldn't make my decision based on Standard Life's or Barrhead Travel's statements so a business man from a lobbying group isn't going to make any difference.

All he does is run through the GERS figures which clearly show Scotland pays more into the UK than it gets out.

On your first point, it's better to have some people in Scotland unhappy with the government than all of us (current situation). In the situation you describe a majority of Scots would be a happy bunch as they'd just got the government they'd voted for, or they'd only have to wait a few years to get rid.

Obviously we'd never get a situation where everyone is happy (just like any democracy) but more Scots would be happy with a government which reflects our own ideals which are quite clearly different to those in the South East and Middle England.

The only other question is, are we capable? and I think the figures published by GERS prove beyond doubt we are.

[ronaldo7]

For the Grandchildren.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/90acb1a8-c04a-11e3-bfbc-00144feabdc0.html#slide0

[speedy_gonzales]

The only other question is, are we capable? and I think the figures published by GERS prove beyond doubt we are. I've never doubted the figures published in the GERS reports, and on the face of it Scotland puts in more than it takes out, but what it doesn't, and can't accurately portray, is any financial (direct or indirect) benefit Scotland gains from being part of the current union.
Anyone who thinks that Scotland will carry on with the same financial figures post independence is dreaming, they may well be better and they may well be worse but with our domestic financials changing to reflect our left of centre leanings, and our international appeal changing also I doubt very much that an independent Scotland accounts would reflect the current GERS reports.

[southfieldhibby]

I've never doubted the figures published in the GERS reports, and on the face of it Scotland puts in more than it takes out, but what it doesn't, and can't accurately portray, is any financial (direct or indirect) benefit Scotland gains from being part of the current union.
Anyone who thinks that Scotland will carry on with the same financial figures post independence is dreaming, they may well be better and they may well be worse but with our domestic financials changing to reflect our left of centre leanings, and our international appeal changing also I doubt very much that an independent Scotland accounts would reflect the current GERS reports.

In a + or - way?And how so?

[speedy_gonzales]

In a + or - way?And how so?

I honestly don't know but I'm fairly certain it won't be the same! It could be a lot better, we could stand out from the UK shadows,,, OR,,,we may not carry the same clout by not being part of a larger trading union.

[jonty]

Royal Society of Edinburgh and the British Academy for the Humanities and Social Sciences have issued this: Enlightening the Constitutional Debate
http://www.royalsoced.org.uk/cms/files/events/reports/2013-2014/The%20Book.pdf

[Beefster]

Royal Society of Edinburgh and the British Academy for the Humanities and Social Sciences have issued this: Enlightening the Constitutional Debate
http://www.royalsoced.org.uk/cms/files/events/reports/2013-2014/The%20Book.pdf

Thanks for the link, jonty. I suspect that it will be more revealing that the entire political debate to date.

[jonty]

Thanks for the link, jonty. I suspect that it will be more revealing that the entire political debate to date.

It's being touted as an educational resource, so I'm hoping there's some substance to it, rather than the scaremongering and political oneupmanship that's going on.

[marinello59]

It's being touted as an educational resource, so I'm hoping there's some substance to it, rather than the scaremongering and political oneupmanship that's going on.

Good find. That's my bed time reading sorted.

[#FromTheCapital]

Are they dead yet?

Whoops wrong thread ;-)

[The Harp Awakes]

Decent piece from the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/10/scotland-likely-choose-independence-foreign-diplomats?CMP=twt_gu

SCOTLAND LIKELY TO CHOOSE INDEPENDENCE FOREIGN DIPLOMATS BELIEVE

An interesting article and editorial particularly given it is the Guardian.

You really do wonder about the strategy of the 'No' campaign. It seems to entirely focus on issuing threats and negative press statements to the media. I think if they continue with the same strategy in the lead up to the referendum and fail to make a positive case for remaining in the Union, they will continue to lose ground.

If the respective campaigns were judged as a boxing match, the ref would be about to count 10 and announce 'down and out' for the 'No' campaign.

[Phil D. Rolls]

SCOTLAND LIKELY TO CHOOSE INDEPENDENCE FOREIGN DIPLOMATS BELIEVE

An interesting article and editorial particularly given it is the Guardian.

You really do wonder about the strategy of the 'No' campaign. It seems to entirely focus on issuing threats and negative press statements to the media. I think if they continue with the same strategy in the lead up to the referendum and fail to make a positive case for remaining in the Union, they will continue to lose ground.

If the respective campaigns were judged as a boxing match, the ref would be about to count 10 and announce 'down and out' for the 'No' campaign.

I think their negativity has an audience, and their position in the polls hasn't been effected by their declarations.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.


John Kenneth Galbraith



The Scots are finding it hard to take this decision without a big boy to take the blame. Hell mend anyone that ever complains about England again.

[lucky]

Alex Salmond was very poor today at the Stuc conference. Announced 3 year funding for union learning but it's frozen at the rate it was 4 years ago. Told a delegate during the Q&A that iScotland will build rUK warships and that there will be a currency union. He was accused of not answering the questions. I'm not a fan of his but he is generally a excellent public speaker but he did not seem interested. Johann Lamont's turn tomorrow. Hopefully she will deliver a positive case rather than Nat bashing

[marinello59]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/271749-gap-between-yes-and-no-continuing-to-narrow-finds-referendum-poll/

Another poll showing that the gap between Yes and No is closing. It also shows that those definitely intending to vote has risen from 65% to 74%. Despite my reservations about the quality of the debate it looks like people are engaqing with it. Encouraging stuff.

[Gus]

I have read most of the white paper (flicked) and it does all look very impressive and the advert on the TV is very good and will no doubt stir the emotions of the nationalists, there is no plan B for the outcome if Scotland goes independent and the things widely mentioned in the debate come into play. Salmond just beats his drum about the anti Westminster and the YES voters will be nursing a semi at some of the p1sh he comes out with imo.

I personally will be voting no but I would of voted yes if I thought it was the best for Scotland long term, but I don't.

[jakeshibs]

I have read most of the white paper (flicked) and it does all look very impressive and the advert on the TV is very good and will no doubt stir the emotions of the nationalists, there is no plan B for the outcome if Scotland goes independent and the things widely mentioned in the debate come into play. Salmond just beats his drum about the anti Westminster and the YES voters will be nursing a semi at some of the p1sh he comes out with imo.

I personally will be voting no but I would of voted yes if I thought it was the best for Scotland long term, but I don't.

I agree with most of the above and going the same way. There are far to many unknowns to risk for me and my families future.

[Mon Dieu4]

I have read most of the white paper (flicked) and it does all look very impressive and the advert on the TV is very good and will no doubt stir the emotions of the nationalists, there is no plan B for the outcome if Scotland goes independent and the things widely mentioned in the debate come into play. Salmond just beats his drum about the anti Westminster and the YES voters will be nursing a semi at some of the p1sh he comes out with imo.

I personally will be voting no but I would of voted yes if I thought it was the best for Scotland long term, but I don't.


Not everyone that will vote yes will pay attention to the white paper, Im voting yes and couldn't care less what is in it, if we become Independent then there will be an election to see who will run the country, the white paper is a wish list that will have you think the streets will be paved with gold on the flip side the better together lot would have you think we will become a third world country

i think the truth lies in between and that we will go along just fine as we are just now but making our own decisions with a government we actually vote for

[Phil D. Rolls]

I agree with most of the above and going the same way. There are far to many unknowns to risk for me and my families future.

As opposed to what is known about the Union? An arrangement that has hardly worked to our advantage in the last 40 years. Lets face it, if it was any good, we'd never have voted for Devolution.

[JimBHibees]

I have read most of the white paper (flicked) and it does all look very impressive and the advert on the TV is very good and will no doubt stir the emotions of the nationalists, there is no plan B for the outcome if Scotland goes independent and the things widely mentioned in the debate come into play. Salmond just beats his drum about the anti Westminster and the YES voters will be nursing a semi at some of the p1sh he comes out with imo.

I personally will be voting no but I would of voted yes if I thought it was the best for Scotland long term, but I don't.

The bottom line is that we will be self determined rather than get the scraps of what public schoolboys from Eton decide what pocket money we deserve despite providing massive input to the UK.

[JimBHibees]

As opposed to what is known about the Union? An arrangement that has hardly worked to our advantage in the last 40 years. Lets face it, if it was any good, we'd never have voted for Devolution.

Very good point and did Standard Life not also tell us they would leave Scotland if we voted for devolution yet surprisingly didn't. :confused:

[The Harp Awakes]

I agree with most of the above and going the same way. There are far to many unknowns to risk for me and my families future.

Every day of life we take risks which we don't have to take.

18 September is just another day but it will be momentus in deciding how Scotland is governed in the decades that follow. Is it worth taking the risk? I guess it depends on how good life is for the individual right now and how much it means to you for decisions that effect Scotland, to be taken in Scotland.

I can remember well both the failed campaign for Devolution in the 1970s and the successful campaign more recently. There were the same disaster scenarios played out by the Unionists in both campaigns but Scotland has prospered under Devolution and been a success IMO.

The referendum is certainly a leap of faith for many, but for others, a 1 in 25 year opportunity to make things better for the majority of people in our country is too good a chance to miss.

[WindyMiller]

Every day of life we take risks which we don't have to take.

18 September is just another day but it will be momentus in deciding how Scotland is governed in the decades that follow. Is it worth taking the risk? I guess it depends on how good life is for the individual right now and how much it means to you for decisions that effect Scotland, to be taken in Scotland.

I can remember well both the failed campaign for Devolution in the 1970s and the successful campaign more recently. There were the same disaster scenarios played out by the Unionists in both campaigns but Scotland has prospered under Devolution and been a success IMO.

The referendum is certainly a leap of faith for many, but for others, a 1 in 25 year opportunity to make things better for the majority of people in our country is too good a chance to miss.


Good post, echoes much of what I feel about it.

[Beefster]

I might vote for independence now if Salmond is going to step in and save every single Scottish company in trouble from going under. Does anyone think he'll get personally involved to help write my debt off if I decide not to pay my tax and credit card bill?

[marinello59]

I might vote for independence now if Salmond is going to step in and save every single Scottish company in trouble from going under. Does anyone think he'll get personally involved to help write my debt off if I decide not to pay my tax and credit card bill?

Beefster in call for state aid to prop up non-sustainable industries amid rumours of a Tory/Trot alliance. :greengrin

[The Modfather]

So to add to the "cataclysmic" downfall of the world in post Yes, the worlds poor would also suffer. I didn't realise just how important we are as a nation of 5m odd in keeping the equilibrium of the world. Just waiting to hear the climate change worries about the sky falling in post Yes to complete the set.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-would-harm-world-s-poorest-1-3375293?WT.mc_id=Outbrain_text&obref=obinsite

[green glory]

So to add to the "cataclysmic" downfall of the world in post Yes, the worlds poor would also suffer. I didn't realise just how important we are as a nation of 5m odd in keeping the equilibrium of the world. Just waiting to hear the climate change worries about the sky falling in post Yes to complete the set. http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-would-harm-world-s-poorest-1-3375293?WT.mc_id=Outbrain_text&obref=obinsite

Would there be a sky in an independent Scotland? Alex Salmond won't say!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Would there be a sky in an independent Scotland? Alex Salmond won't say!

Yes. He would tell us, then he would save it.

[ronaldo7]

The No campaign likened to the Jeremy Kyle show.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/will-black/scottish-independence_b_5155297.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

[Phil D. Rolls]

I might vote for independence now if Salmond is going to step in and save every single Scottish company in trouble from going under. Does anyone think he'll get personally involved to help write my debt off if I decide not to pay my tax and credit card bill?

Im banking on it! :greengrin

[HiBremian]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/chaos-tantrums-and-stooges-ex-chief-lambasts-yes-scotland.24006261?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/why-the-fight-for-independence-has-left-yes-scotland-behind.24005226

Interesting couple of articles in today's Herald about the Yes Campaign. The first is a meedja take on the second, and a neat reflection of their (the meedja, that is) obsession with leaders and personality clashes. For me, the interesting aspect is the strength of the grassroots campaign, and it seems, the way the public are responding to it. If this is a further reflection of the Scottish electorate's engagement in the political debate, despite considerable skepticism towards the political class and their spouting via the meedja, I can only applaud from afar. This comment under the second article really struck me:

"The grassroots YES campaign seems to be huge and very active. But from what I hear many use their own material, gathered at times from other pro-independence websites, even to the extent of using pre-prepared leaflets or making up their own.

And perhaps this should be the way; it's the People of Scotland who will make Independence happen, and will make it work, not a bunch of politicos or paid agents. Either the People of Scotland say "YES" or we say "NO"".

:not worth

[Moulin Yarns]

If you are undecided then this is worth reading

http://yesdivit.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/my-road-to-yes/

[Alex Trager]

What's the deal with Robert Gordon uni?

[stoneyburn hibs]

If you are undecided then this is worth reading

http://yesdivit.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/my-road-to-yes/

A good read.
I have been inspired and have decided to join the Yes campaign to help out with leaflet drops etc.

[Sylar]

12463

Let's play spot the difference...

[green glory]

<img src="http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12463"/> Let's play spot the difference...

Willing participants in state propaganda. Gordon Brown to lecture us on pensions shortly too. The man who ****ed up all our pensions.

[Beefster]

12463

Let's play spot the difference...

Superficially, it looks dodgy. Despite the mention of pensions, they are two different stories, I would imagine. One about pensioners not having the resources put away to have a decent retirement, the other about the resources an independent Scotland would need to put towards state pensions.

I'm not offering an opinion on either story incidentally. Just pointing out that they are not the same story.

[JeMeSouviens]

Gordon Brown in warning about pensions. :faf:

After the break ... A. Fox warns about the perilous state of chicken farming in an independent Scotland. :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

Gordon Brown in warning about pensions. :faf:

After the break ... A. Fox warns about the perilous state of chicken farming in an independent Scotland. :rolleyes:

I'd imagine his pension might suffer in an independent Scotland so maybe he's talking from the heart.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/23/tony-blair-battle-islamic-extremism-political-agenda

Eek!

I'm a small, developed, western democracy with no desire to meddle any further in the affairs of the middle east, get me the **** out of here!!!!

[lucky]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/23/tony-blair-battle-islamic-extremism-political-agenda

Eek!

I'm a small, developed, western democracy with no desire to meddle any further in the affairs of the middle east, get me the **** out of here!!!!

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

[PeeJay]

If you are undecided then this is worth reading

http://yesdivit.wordpress.com/2014/04/19/my-road-to-yes/

Couldn't quite see what is so good about this article that it could sway an undecided voter to vote "yes". Don't see it myself.

Agree wholeheartedly with his sentiment that individuals should find out as much as possible about what independence will mean for Scotland before casting their votes.

His BC take on politicians however is pathetic nonsense and his assertion that the Internet is a better place to find the "truth" is surely misguided ...

... maybe someone should tell Fraser that not only "Scots" are entitled to vote in the referendum .... (... "if every single Scot"...)

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/20/scottish-independence-campaign-gaining-ground-polls

Yay 39%
Nay 42%
Dinnae Ken 19%

Or excluding dinnae kens

Yay 48%
Nay 52%

Closer and closer...

[Glory Lurker]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place


All very noble, but I don't want my kids to forgo the benefits of independence just so that we can occasionally maybe stop Westminster doing something stupid.

[ronaldo7]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

When was this vote?

How many Scots Labour MP's voted?

It's just that the Scottish Labour Mp's told us they would vote against the Bedroom tax and several never even turned up.

http://ukgeneralelection2015.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/bedroom-tax-vote-where-were-all-labour.html

Then there was the vote on the Welfare cap where I thought they would support the poor. I know of 32 Labour MP's who voted with the Tories.

Seems to me it's a tactic of the No campaign to make bold statements and then run for the hills without being allowed to be challenged on them.

George Osborne and Gordon Brown spring to mind. When George made his sermon on the pound and Gordon on his pensions. Both opted out of speaking to the media therefor not allowing the claims to be challenged.

[The Harp Awakes]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/20/scottish-independence-campaign-gaining-ground-polls

Yay 39%
Nay 42%
Dinnae Ken 19%

Or excluding dinnae kens

Yay 48%
Nay 52%

Closer and closer...

No time for complacency but tonight is genuinely the first time I have believed that we're heading for a Yes' vote.

[Moulin Yarns]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

That is why being an independent Nation State within the European Union, United Nations and NATO will work. Each nation has the same voting rights. The number of Scottish MPs at Westminster will never have the same influence because they are so outnumbered by those we didn't vote for.

[JeMeSouviens]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

You are Lord George Robertson! Where do I claim my £5?

I think the best influence we could have on UK foreign policy is to further diminish the UK's imperial hangover pretence of being a "great power" by becoming independent. The UK's "defence" spending, at 2.5% of GDP, is wildly disproportionate compared to other European countries. Only France, the other ex-imperialist, comes close.

If you think Scots MPs at Westminster are going to stop that, you are utterly delusional. Jim Murphy, John Reid, Gordon Brown (even TB himself is really a Scot) ... all seduced by the chance to be "players" on the world stage. All cheerleaders for doomed military adventure. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Gordon Brown in warning about pensions. :faf:

After the break ... A. Fox warns about the perilous state of chicken farming in an independent Scotland. :rolleyes:

Good grief, the fox-chickens thing would actually be less ironic than this ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10783592/Vulnerable-people-could-lose-benefits-in-an-independent-Scotland-warns-minister.html

I'm starting to think there's a Tory conspiracy aiming for a Yes vote. :hmmm:

[Saorsa]

Good grief, the fox-chickens thing would actually be less ironic than this ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10783592/Vulnerable-people-could-lose-benefits-in-an-independent-Scotland-warns-minister.html

I'm starting to think there's a Tory conspiracy aiming for a Yes vote. :hmmm:Vulnerable people could lose their benefits - says tory :tee hee:



for your neck

http://www.design-technology.org/brasso.JPG

Highly recommended by Rod Petrie

[JimBHibees]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

So Iraq is just brushed under the carpet, good one. The most shameful decision a UK government has made in my lifetime and even more ironic that it was so well supported by the vast majority of Labour MP's now telling us how wonderful the UK and Westminster is for Scotland.

[EH54]

So if Scotland is independent will Blair and his like not intervene in the Middle East? Course not. It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria. Without the Scots the UK and USA would have bombed Syria. I'd rather stop it than say it happened but not in my name. It's crucial that we continue to influence UK and western foreign policy. But we can only do that by having Scots at Westminster. Before any starts about that idea failed on Iraq, I accept that, but let's ensure no further unnecessary wars take place

Nonsense we played our part i agree but had Liberals and the Conservatives not had MP's who rebelled against there leaders and backed no military strike it would have went ahead with or without Scottish MP Votes. This is why when the overwhelming majority off Scottish MP's oppose something its still enforced unless we get backing from Mp's south off the border whose interest in Scotland is minuscule.

[Beefster]

This thread has turned into a cycle of:

- Some lonely soul (generally, Lucky these days) makes a point that might be pro-No or may only be remotely questioning of independence.

- A variety of Yes-supporters trash said poster. A few trying to address the point, some posting links to pro-independence websites and the rest just mocking the poster/points.

- A succession of links, smilies and "good post" to reinforce the fact that the questioner was wrong.

You guys know what a 'circle jerk' is, right?

[Alex Trager]

This thread has turned into a cycle of:

- Some lonely soul (generally, Lucky these days) makes a point that might be pro-No or may only be remotely questioning of independence.

- A variety of Yes-supporters trash said poster. A few trying to address the point, some posting links to pro-independence websites and the rest just mocking the poster/points.

- A succession of links, smilies and "good post" to reinforce the fact that the questioner was wrong.

You guys know what a 'circle jerk' is, right?

What are people to do when very few people are bringing up points from the no camp? They can only answer these queries/ try and refute these claims whatever.
I'm sure these guys are actually enjoying the fact that the amount of no voters are demonising on this site.

Why don't you bring up a topic that is debate worthy?

[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland to be given equal status in the UK as .......















CORNWALL

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-27132035

You really couldn't make that up!!!!

[Just Alf]

RAF fighter jets scrambled to investigate Russian planes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27130125

apparently happened 8 times last year.... I wonder why it's only now that it's being shared?

[Future17]

RAF fighter jets scrambled to investigate Russian planes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27130125

apparently happened 8 times last year.... I wonder why it's only now that it's being shared?

These incidents are reported from time to time but, given there basically is no story, only really when it's a slow news day.

It's only made the news now because of the Russia/Ukraine situation.

[marinello59]

Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland to be given equal status in the UK as .....


CORNWALL

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-27132035

You really couldn't make that up!!!!

So it's Ok for Scots to take pride in their unique cultural identity but we should sneer at our fellow Celts in Cornwall for doing the same. The Cornish have long seen themselves as 'separate' from the rest of England.

[Just Alf]

These incidents are reported from time to time but, given there basically is no story, only really when it's a slow news day.

It's only made the news now because of the Russia/Ukraine situation.

I know where you're coming from ..... Can't help thinking its a wee bit fortuitous timing wise this time around. Mind you both sides will use whatever comes around to help push their argument.

[Moulin Yarns]

So it's Ok for Scots to take pride in their unique cultural identity but we should sneer at our fellow Celts in Cornwall for doing the same. The Cornish have long seen themselves as 'separate' from the rest of England.

I'm not sneering at the Cornish, I'm just astonished that Scotland will be permitted the same status as Cornwall (by the Westminster Government), in the same year that Scotland will vote whether to become an independent, seperate nation

[marinello59]

I'm not sneering at the Cornish, I'm just astonished that Scotland will be permitted the same status as Cornwall (by the Westminster Government), in the same year that Scotland will vote whether to become an independent, seperate nation

Eh? Have you actually read the story? The story isn't about the Scots, it's about the Cornish. They are being granted the same legal minority status as the Scots currently have. What is wrong with that? If you think that they are undeserving of that status and you aren't sneering at them, what is the problem?

[lucky]

This thread has turned into a cycle of:

- Some lonely soul (generally, Lucky these days) makes a point that might be pro-No or may only be remotely questioning of independence.

- A variety of Yes-supporters trash said poster. A few trying to address the point, some posting links to pro-independence websites and the rest just mocking the poster/points.

- A succession of links, smilies and "good post" to reinforce the fact that the questioner was wrong.

You guys know what a 'circle jerk' is, right?

Your spot on. I generally pop into this thread just to how it's going. Originally it was fairly balanced but now it's shout down the no supporters. But what does interest me is how the poll on here is so out of sync with all other polls on the independence. It would appear that Hibs support is more inclined to support separation based on this. Not sure what other fans websites are saying.

[marinello59]

Your spot on. I generally pop into this thread just to how it's going. Originally it was fairly balanced but now it's shout down the no supporters. But what does interest me is how the poll on here is so out of sync with all other polls on the independence. It would appear that Hibs support is more inclined to support separation based on this. Not sure what other fans websites are saying.

Or less likely to voice their support for a No Vote on here. I would guess that the Hibs support as a whole are like the Scottish electorate, split roughly 50 -50.

[EH54]

Your spot on. I generally pop into this thread just to how it's going. Originally it was fairly balanced but now it's shout down the no supporters. But what does interest me is how the poll on here is so out of sync with all other polls on the independence. It would appear that Hibs support is more inclined to support Independence based on this. Not sure what other fans websites are saying.

Someone i know is doing a poll on all other social media website and forums for individual football teams so when i get the results ill post them here. I love a good Poll and its good to see majority here have voted yes and on other polls i have seen but on the other hand Polls aren't always accurate which is why i don't tend to bother who has more votes until the results are declared

[green glory]

Your spot on. I generally pop into this thread just to how it's going. Originally it was fairly balanced but now it's shout down the no supporters. But what does interest me is how the poll on here is so out of sync with all other polls on the independence. It would appear that Hibs support is more inclined to support separation based on this. Not sure what other fans websites are saying.

Most other fans forums are on a par with here. With one obvious exception.

[Moulin Yarns]

Eh? Have you actually read the story? The story isn't about the Scots, it's about the Cornish. They are being granted the same legal minority status as the Scots currently have. What is wrong with that? If you think that they are undeserving of that status and you aren't sneering at them, what is the problem?

Sorry Marinello, Of course I read it, maybe I needed to splash a few smillies around when I turned the story on its head to suggest that Scotland would have parity with a county in the south west of England. Maybe, but I didn't. What the Cornish will still be denied by the UK Government is any devolved governance like that suggested by COSLA for Scotland, while other devolved nations within the UK are proposing a reduction in local governance, by reducing the number of Local Authorities.

I recommend reading Blossom, by Lesley Riddoch.

[ronaldo7]

This thread has turned into a cycle of:

- Some lonely soul (generally, Lucky these days) makes a point that might be pro-No or may only be remotely questioning of independence.

- A variety of Yes-supporters trash said poster. A few trying to address the point, some posting links to pro-independence websites and the rest just mocking the poster/points.

- A succession of links, smilies and "good post" to reinforce the fact that the questioner was wrong.

You guys know what a 'circle jerk' is, right?

Jeezo, people are surely allowed to question a poster who makes this claim" It was the Scottish MPs that stopped cameron bombing Syria".

I've asked two questions on the subject, maybe I should have asked one this week and one next week.

Seems people only want to make claims but are not prepared to back up the claim with evidence.

[marinello59]

Sorry Marinello, Of course I read it, maybe I needed to splash a few smillies around when I turned the story on its head to suggest that Scotland would have parity with a county in the south west of England. Maybe, but I didn't. What the Cornish will still be denied by the UK Government is any devolved governance like that suggested by COSLA for Scotland, while other devolved nations within the UK are proposing a reduction in local governance, by reducing the number of Local Authorities.

I recommend reading Blossom, by Lesley Riddoch.

I read it recently and it is an absolutely superb book. It did nothing but strengthen my belief that voting Yes will prove to be the starting point for a much better Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or less likely to voice their support for a No Vote on here. I would guess that the Hibs support as a whole are like the Scottish electorate, split roughly 50 -50.

Yes has stronger support among men than women (men Y +1, women N +7) and the strongest Yes age segment is 25-34 (Y +3), so I guess football forums ought to be fairly fertile Yes territory. (Figures from latest ICM poll for the Scotsman.)