Scottish Independence

[AugustaHibs]

That doesn’t seem a very logical basis for anything but crack on.

Nor does 99.9% of anything most governments do.

[ronaldo7]

This will surely help the economy though so that’s your question answered. Well done SG.


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Correct. Spent in our local shops and restaurants.

Ye can't beat it.

[Ozyhibby]

Puts a bit of pressure on Johnson and Sunak to not tax the thank you as well.


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[Mon Dieu4]

Good for you, but that doesn’t answer my question. And I don’t see the logic at work - electoral politics aside - of singling out one group that risked their lives or kept essential services going but not others. To be fair, it may apply more widely but I haven’t seen the detail.

Maybe they don't have the authority to do it for bin men etc as they are at a local level, up to the council's who are run by all different parties to decide if they are going to give their workers a bonus, the SNP pretty much have control over NHS payments and have rewarded them

[One Day Soon]

This will surely help the economy though so that’s your question answered. Well done SG.


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That depends what is it spent on. If I were a Scottish business struggling to stay afloat through all this I might want to be reassured that it hasn’t come from any of the Barnett consequential that was meant to help protect those businesses and jobs.

[weecounty hibby]

Which bit is Scot Govt bashing? Wanting to know the cost, the source or who is getting it and why?

It’s almost as though you’re so obsessed with being a fanboy for them that you treat any questions at all as being unacceptable.
Not at all, just can't believe that something like this can elicit an immediate negative response. Not a bit of this seems like good news on the surface but........Nope straight in with negativity.

[One Day Soon]

Maybe they don't have the authority to do it for bin men etc as they are at a local level, up to the council's who are run by all different parties to decide if they are going to give their workers a bonus, the SNP pretty much have control over NHS payments and have rewarded them

That’s possible I suppose. If so you’d expect to see Scot Govt make the offer to Councils to fund it if Councils want to do it.

[One Day Soon]

Not at all, just can't believe that something like this can elicit an immediate negative response. Not a bit of this seems like good news on the surface but........Nope straight in with negativity.

I ask again, which bit is negative? Asking the total, the source or the scope?

[danhibees1875]

Correct. Spent in our local shops and restaurants.

Ye can't beat it.

Or Amazon. :wink:

[weecounty hibby]

I ask again, which bit is negative? Asking the total, the source or the scope?

Anything positive to say about it?

[Kato]

Christ, I hope the ‘plans’ for our finance in an independent Scotland are a bit more thought through than that.Or we could just stay in the UK where the plans are just that.

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[One Day Soon]

Or Amazon. :wink:

Or saved up to spend abroad on holiday? Or paid into mortgage, credit card or personal loan debt?

[ronaldo7]

Or Amazon. :wink:

Feed the kids, pay the rent, or energy bills.

The choice is theirs.

[One Day Soon]

Anything positive to say about it?

You really have no way to justify what you’re saying do you? These are legitimate questions that you only regard as negative because they’re about an SNP Govt. If they were being asked of the Tories you wouldn’t bat an eyelid.

Positive? It looks like political posturing to me because it doesn’t appear to be inclusive, fair or sustainable. Potentially very clever politics however.

[danhibees1875]

Or saved up to spend abroad on holiday? Or paid into mortgage, credit card or personal loan debt?


Feed the kids, pay the rent, or energy bills.

The choice is theirs.

:agree: Anywhere.

Which is why I think the source of the money would be good to know - if it was from consequentials that otherwise should have been used to help struggling businesses back on their feet directly or not.

I'm not saying that would make it a bad thing to do in isolation obviously, a bonus to NHS staff would seldom tick that box.

[weecounty hibby]

You really have no way to justify what you’re saying do you? These are legitimate questions that you only regard as negative because they’re about an SNP Govt. If they were being asked of the Tories you wouldn’t bat and eyelid.

Positive? It looks like political posturing to me because it doesn’t appear to be inclusive, fair or sustainable. Potentially very clever politics however.

I ****ing hate the Tories, no ifs, no buts. But if they had done this I would have said well done. I may have then gone on to ask some questions but at least I would have recognised that it is a good thing to do. You on the other hand still can't bring yourself to say it is a good thing.

[Jack]

The British Government splash out over £12bn lining the pockets of their pals.

The Scottish Government spend a couple of million directly rewarding NHS workers.

And some folk, admittedly many fewer than it used to be, still want to be governed by the thieves.

[One Day Soon]

I ****ing hate the Tories, no ifs, no buts. But if they had done this I would have said well done. I may have then gone on to ask some questions but at least I would have recognised that it is a good thing to do. You on the other hand still can't bring yourself to say it is a good thing.

That’s because I’m not at all sure yet that it is. Conference pledges and budget statements are two things in politics that have a habit of frequently being too clever by half, not all they seem and not revealing the full story on announcement.

I gather however that a consultative ballot on industrial action over pay by the largest health and care union is due to start tomorrow which may explain a fair bit of this.

[ronaldo7]

:agree: Anywhere.

Which is why I think the source of the money would be good to know - if it was from consequentials that otherwise should have been used to help struggling businesses back on their feet directly or not.

I'm not saying that would make it a bad thing to do in isolation obviously, a bonus to NHS staff would seldom tick that box.

Im sure the bloodhounds in our wonderful MSM will be all over it, and we'll find out soon enough. It's a decision for the Scottish government to make where we spend our cash.

[One Day Soon]

The British Government splash out over £12bn lining the pockets of their pals.

The Scottish Government spend a couple of million directly rewarding NHS workers.

And some folk, admittedly many fewer than it used to be, still want to be governed by the thieves.

Pretty confident I’ve never wanted to be governed by Tories of either a UK or tartan variety.

[danhibees1875]

Im sure the bloodhounds in our wonderful MSM will be all over it, and we'll find out soon enough. It's a decision for the Scottish government to make where we spend our cash.

I didn't say it wasn't. :agree:

[Betty Boop]

Aye Sturgeon because it was only NHS staff that went the extra mile during the pandemic.

[The Modfather]

I ask again, which bit is negative? Asking the total, the source or the scope?

You never even said it was a good gesture in these times. You led with, yes but what about the others. You can praise the action while also wanting to see the financials behind it.

Anyway, that’s me done on the subject. A good gesture and more of the kind of thinking I’d like to see from all parties.

[One Day Soon]

Aye Sturgeon because it was only NHS staff that went the extra mile during the pandemic.

I’ve just seen a twitter post making the point that this is doctors, dentists and consultants receiving money from delivery drivers, labourers and checkout operators. A crude analogy given that nurses and others will also benefit but it does make the point that this is much more electoral politics than it is even handedness.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’ve just seen a twitter post making the point that this is doctors, dentists and consultants receiving money from delivery drivers, labourers and checkout operators. A crude analogy given that nurses and others will also benefit but it does make the point that this is much more electoral politics than it is even handedness.

That's a great gesture from delivery drivers, labourers and check out operators, where do you donate? 👍😁

[One Day Soon]

You never even said it was a good gesture in these times. You led with, yes but what about the others. You can praise the action while also wanting to see the financials behind it.

Anyway, that’s me done on the subject. A good gesture and more of the kind of thinking I’d like to see from all parties.

You can’t praise the action if you think it looks like a pretty poor action. I may be missing something here but it looks like naked politicking since it just ignores a whole bunch of other equally deserving people - perhaps more so financially - while also rewarding others already extremely well salaried.

[One Day Soon]

That's a great gesture from delivery drivers, labourers and check out operators, where do you donate? 👍😁

Through the tax you have no choice about paying from your much lower income which is then redistributed to the people benefitting from this announcement.

[greenlex]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

There’s cash stashed away mind.

[ronaldo7]

I didn't say it wasn't. :agree:

:aok: Happy St Andrews day from the SG :saltireflag:saltireflag:saltireflag

[danhibees1875]

I’ve just seen a twitter post making the point that this is doctors, dentists and consultants receiving money from delivery drivers, labourers and checkout operators. A crude analogy given that nurses and others will also benefit but it does make the point that this is much more electoral politics than it is even handedness.

I think that's where the source question might help to give a bit of perspective on the money and decision making.

There are non-front line NHS staff and there are non-nhs front line staff, if this is meant to be a coronavirus gratitude and from the consequentials of coronavirus related payments then I think there are legitimate questions over the Scottish governments decisions (and they are their decisions to make, but they are questionable) and whether they could have been more targeted in their approach here. Of course you can't please all of the people all of the time though.

If it's meant to go towards businesses rather than people then I think that's less of an issue and there are questions over the decision based on whether it's the most effective use of money to get to the right businesses that needed that support.

If it's just extra money and it's being used to bolster - the largely underpaid - NHS staff wages then I don't think they've too many questions to answer.

[One Day Soon]

There’s cash stashed away mind.

I know. What isn’t getting funded so that this is.

[Berwickhibby]

I know. What isn’t getting funded so that this is.

Yeah me, my business has not been able to operate since March, received nothing from either Government. I have burned through my savings to be pay bills and HRMC reminded me I need to pay my 2019 bill. But giving people who have continued earning throughout a bonus does nothing for my mood.

[ronaldo7]

The kindness, and compassion the FM spoke about today is fair shining through since her speech.

I've personally not received a penny from either government, during this pandemic, but take heart that those at the sharp end are getting some sort of reward for their efforts.

[Berwickhibby]

The kindness, and compassion the FM spoke about today is fair shining through since her speech.

I've personally not received a penny from either government, during this pandemic, but take heart that those at the sharp end are getting some sort of reward for their efforts.

The kindness and compassion that she spoke about does not pay the bills....her and Boris can GTF

[Hibrandenburg]

That doesn’t count Crops, I didn’t like the poll result so I’ll be wanting a re-take...

No problem, but as is normal your strategy of argumentation will only make the result more resounding. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Good for you, but that doesn’t answer my question. And I don’t see the logic at work - electoral politics aside - of singling out one group that risked their lives or kept essential services going but not others. To be fair, it may apply more widely but I haven’t seen the detail.

I think Boris will agree with your sentiment, surely clapping them is enough.

[Ozyhibby]

The tax from businesses goes to the UK treasury so any direct help to businesses should come from there.


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[One Day Soon]

I think Boris will agree with your sentiment, surely clapping them is enough.

Please don’t completely misrepresent my views.

[ronaldo7]

The kindness and compassion that she spoke about does not pay the bills....her and Boris can GTF

Are you not happy for the health and social care workers that will get this bonus?

[One Day Soon]

The tax from businesses goes to the UK treasury so any direct help to businesses should come from there.


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Why in that case has the Scottish Govt been giving business assistance through grants and loans? As you well know there are no separate business tax pots in the UK Exchequer, revenue is revenue. We have had Barnett consequentials as a result of UK support for business but It’s not clear that Scottish Govt has used all that money to support Scottish business.

[ronaldo7]

Why in that case has the Scottish Govt been giving business assistance through grants and loans? As you well know there are no separate business tax pots in the UK Exchequer, revenue is revenue. We have had Barnett consequentials as a result of UK support for business but It’s not clear that Scottish Govt has used all that money to support Scottish business.

They've already said that every penny from Barnett consequentials for business support will be passed on.

[marinello59]

Great news for all those getting these well deserved payments. Hopefully they follow this up with a significant pay rise as well.
So do all NHS workers and all those employed in the care sector get this bonus?

[Berwickhibby]

Are you not happy for the health and social care workers that will get this bonus?

Once everybody is helped then fine....but that is not a vote winner in a speech 😡

[ronaldo7]

Once everybody is helped then fine....but that is not a vote winner in a speech 😡

They can't help everyone, but better to at least start with those at the sharp end with what they can.

I'm surprised you aren't delighted with this.

[CropleyWasGod]

The tax from businesses goes to the UK treasury so any direct help to businesses should come from there.


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Those businesses who pay Income Tax will have their taxes sent to Holyrood.

[Berwickhibby]

They can't help everyone, but better to at least start with those at the sharp end with what they can.

I'm surprised you aren't delighted with this.

It’s pathetic... SNP buying public sector votes

[Hibrandenburg]

The British Government splash out over £12bn lining the pockets of their pals.

The Scottish Government spend a couple of million directly rewarding NHS workers.

And some folk, admittedly many fewer than it used to be, still want to be governed by the thieves.

Well said.

[ronaldo7]

It’s pathetic... SNP buying public sector votes

That would be illegal. I'm sure some of your comrades would be all over it if true.

[Berwickhibby]

That would be illegal. I'm sure some of your comrades would be all over it if true.

I doubt any of my DJs would get involved

[ronaldo7]

I doubt any of my DJs would get involved

And I would get 500 quid, has a bit of a ring to it. Maybe the procos could bring out a new single.

[Colr]

Happy St Andrew’s Day, Hibees!

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's a fantastic gesture and will help a lot of people, what's to be negative about?

[Berwickhibby]

It's a fantastic gesture and will help a lot of people, what's to be negative about?

Simply lots of people have had no help whatsoever and others a getting bonuses for going to work and still earning a full wage.

[The Modfather]

Simply lots of people have had no help whatsoever and others a getting bonuses for going to work and still earning a full wage.

I’m also one of those that have fallen through the cracks in terms of any kind of Covid support and my mid term prospects are precarious. However I still think that valid issue can be separated from this and give credit where it’s due, IMO.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Simply lots of people have had no help whatsoever and others a getting bonuses for going to work and still earning a full wage.

It's a fantastic gesture to those constantly living from hand to mouth, all the while putting there lives at risk for the last 8 months.

You and the other detractors can bash on though.

[cabbageandribs1875]

lovely gesture from a wonderfully caring scottish
government, thank goodness we have the right people running it :agree:

[greenlex]

I know. What isn’t getting funded so that this is.
Private individual pockets.

[Ozyhibby]

Private individual pockets.

True enough. This could just be Barnett consequential from all the cash the Tories pocketed in England for PPE and their failed test and trace system.[emoji23]


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[AgentDaleCooper]

I know. What isn’t getting funded so that this is.

that can literally be applied to any policy.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Yeah me, my business has not been able to operate since March, received nothing from either Government. I have burned through my savings to be pay bills and HRMC reminded me I need to pay my 2019 bill. But giving people who have continued earning throughout a bonus does nothing for my mood.

they're also the two sectors that suffered the most deaths due to catching covid in the workplace. out of curiosity, what did you make of the clapping? do you think that was sufficient? working in care services and the NHS are among the most emotionally and physically demanding work places on the go at the best of times, with most people being grossly underpaid for their work relative to their skill set, and sometimes dangerously over worked. my only worry is that this will amount to a pay off, when what nurses, midwives, care workers etc. really need is better pay and more staff. it's certainly better than nothing though, and thoroughly merited.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't get what's not to like about this gesture. Yes, there are other essential workers worthy of recognition, but none more so than the dedicated staff of the NHS who day in and day out put their lives on the line by caring for highly infectious people.

[Rumble de Thump]

People who have an unhealthy hatred of the SNP will hate anything the SNP says or does.

[Hibrandenburg]

People who have an unhealthy hatred of the SNP will hate anything the SNP says or does.

It's amazing how many people who were clapping the NHS a few weeks ago now seem to be outraged at this.

[Bristolhibby]

It’s pathetic... SNP buying public sector votes

Is that what it was? I thought it was giving a bonus to the NHS staff we clapped for once a week in April/May.

Hats off to them, they should be being paid this as a matter of course.

J

[Peevemor]

If any government wants to buy my vote by providing free, healthy meals for all primary school children, free female sanitary provision in public buildings, bonus payments for under strain healthcare workers and other such initiatives, then crack on - I'm all for it!

Are they buying votes or simply spending money on the right things?

[cabbageandribs1875]

People who have an unhealthy hatred of the SNP will hate anything the SNP says or does.



unhealthy and bitter :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

i see sunak has said the bonus will be taxed


the westminster treasury has to get its cut, which will probably end up going to tory party donors somewhere along the line.

[green&left]

If any government wants to buy my vote by providing free, healthy meals for all primary school children, free female sanitary provision in public buildings, bonus payments for under strain healthcare workers and other such initiatives, then crack on - I'm all for it!

Are they buying votes or simply spending money on the right things?

Course it's buying votes. Funny how the school dinners thing wasn't so much of a concern for the SNP this term or the one before that. But after a nationwide campaign with Rashford, Piers Morgan then the outrage of the Tories voting against it and the publicity it all received it's now top of the SNP's agenda.

The £500 thing is a disgrace aswell. Unemployment through the roof and foodbank use sky high. But let's give people in full-time employment £500 for free. Then to ask BJ for it to be tax-free to make out how good Scotland is and how ***** those English are.

[green&left]

I don't get what's not to like about this gesture. Yes, there are other essential workers worthy of recognition, but none more so than the dedicated staff of the NHS who day in and day out put their lives on the line by caring for highly infectious people.

Bit of a myth though isn't it. I personally know 5 NHS workers from doctors, nurses and porters and it's the quietest they've ever been.

[murray26]

Course it's buying votes. Funny how the school dinners thing wasn't so much of a concern for the SNP this term or the one before that. But after a nationwide campaign with Rashford, Piers Morgan then the outrage of the Tories voting against it and the publicity it all received it's now top of the SNP's agenda.

The £500 thing is a disgrace aswell. Unemployment through the roof and foodbank use sky high. But let's give people in full-time employment £500 for free. Then to ask BJ for it to be tax-free to make out how good Scotland is and how ***** those English are.

Isn’t it just doing the right thing to help people..? Sounds pretty sensible to me maybe the tories down south should try something similar..

[murray26]

Bit of a myth though isn't it. I personally know 5 NHS workers from doctors, nurses and porters and it's the quietest they've ever been.

Yes a myth.. I also know a young nurse who works in the COVID ward and is traumatised by some of the things she’s seen.. I certainly don’t grudge her a bonus.

[Hiber-nation]

Bit of a myth though isn't it. I personally know 5 NHS workers from doctors, nurses and porters and it's the quietest they've ever been.

NHS workers I've spoken to say the complete opposite.

[green&left]

Isn’t it just doing the right thing to help people..? Sounds pretty sensible to me maybe the tories down south should try something similar..

Perhaps. Although feeding hungry children at school wasn't really on the SNP's agenda much until a UK nationwide campaign endorsed by celebrities took over our papers and airwaves for a fortnight last month. You'd think there is an election coming up or something...

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps. Although feeding hungry children at school wasn't really on the SNP's agenda much until a UK nationwide campaign endorsed by celebrities took over our papers and airwaves for a fortnight last month. You'd think there is an election coming up or something...

This is a disgrace. Your accusing the Scottish Government of listening to what people want and then delivering it? Outrageous.


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[Jack]

Was the Scottish Government not already providing free school meals before all the Rushford stuff kicked off?

I seem to recall it had already been announced for the Easter break and then was extended to include the summer break around the time Rushford was giving the torys a reddir.

[CropleyWasGod]

i see sunak has said the bonus will be taxed


the westminster treasury has to get its cut, which will probably end up going to tory party donors somewhere along the line.

In a twist, the SG will get the tax. Westminster will get the NI.

[heretoday]

I don't get what's not to like about this gesture. Yes, there are other essential workers worthy of recognition, but none more so than the dedicated staff of the NHS who day in and day out put their lives on the line by caring for highly infectious people.

What about teachers?

Not front line enough for you?

[ronaldo7]

Course it's buying votes. Funny how the school dinners thing wasn't so much of a concern for the SNP this term or the one before that. But after a nationwide campaign with Rashford, Piers Morgan then the outrage of the Tories voting against it and the publicity it all received it's now top of the SNP's agenda.

The £500 thing is a disgrace aswell. Unemployment through the roof and foodbank use sky high. But let's give people in full-time employment £500 for free. Then to ask BJ for it to be tax-free to make out how good Scotland is and how ***** those English are.


Perhaps. Although feeding hungry children at school wasn't really on the SNP's agenda much until a UK nationwide campaign endorsed by celebrities took over our papers and airwaves for a fortnight last month. You'd think there is an election coming up or something...


Was the Scottish Government not already providing free school meals before all the Rushford stuff kicked off?
[/B]
I seem to recall it had already been announced for the Easter break and then was extended to include the summer break around the time Rushford was giving the torys a reddir.


We've been providing free school meals for children in P1-3 since 2015...5 LONG YEARS AGO.

It's about time some in our country understood what we're doing instead of saying we're following a policy of some celebrity some years later. Good on him by the way.

In the following years, the Policy has been modified to cover school holidays, and will now cover Breakfast and Lunch for ALL SCHOOL CHILDREN from august 2022

Try and keep up Scotty. :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

In a twist, the SG will get the tax. Westminster will get the NI.

Someone should point that out to Ian Blackford as he had been in Twitter spouting his usual grievance... I loved this response fro a HM Treasury Spokeperson "We have provided£8.2bn extra funding for the Scottish Government this year to support people, businesses and public services, The Income Tax on these payments is paid to Scotland not Westminster- and the Scottish Government has the powers and funding to gross up the payment if it wishes"

[ronaldo7]

Private individual pockets.

Ah, that'll be the SCOTTISH PIP system. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

This is a disgrace. Your accusing the Scottish Government of listening to what people want and then delivering it? Outrageous.


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They're doing it deliberately too. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

We're not waiting on this policy, we're just helping our people.

Let the Flailing continue.


Families with children in receipt of free school meals will receive a £100 direct payment before Christmas, as part of plans set to be announced by Nicola Sturgeon at SNP conference later today.

With the payments part of a new £100m winter fund, aimed at supporting low income households, the First Minister said the move would help those “struggling most with the impact of COVID over the winter months”.

Around a quarter of the £100m fund will be spent on winter grants to low income families under the plans, benefiting about 150,000 households.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,snp-conference-new-winter-payments-for-low-income-families

[ronaldo7]

For those out there who want to keep up with policy.

We will shortly become the only part of the UK to give low income families an extra £10 per week for every child - initially for children up to age 6 and then for every child up to age 16. This has been described as a game-changer in the fight to end child poverty.

The first payments will be made in February.

[Jones28]

For those out there who want to keep up with policy.

We will shortly become the only part of the UK to give low income families an extra £10 per week for every child - initially for children up to age 6 and then for every child up to age 16. This has been described as a game-changer in the fight to end child poverty.

The first payments will be made in February.

SHe’s jUst DOIng iT fOr thE VotEs

[Hibrandenburg]

What about teachers?

Not front line enough for you?

I said there are others deserving credit and I'd include teachers. But to compare teachers to a group of people who work directly with people who are confirmed Covid19 patients, washing them, cleaning their *****. disposing their waste and body fluids, moving them from place to place or just caring for them is just silly. I'm surprised you're not campaigning for Hibs to get "Well done teachers" emblazoned across the front of the strip, or does the envy only apply to monetary recognition?

[The Harp Awakes]

The reaction of a few, but vocal individuals on here to the SG's announcement of a £500 payment to the NHS and care workers and Winter hardship payment to struggling families, emphasises the need why Scotland must become independent at the earliest opportunity.

We need to have full control of our affairs to introduce the further progressive policies required to take children out of poverty and build a more caring and equal country.

The I'm alright jack and me, me, me attitude of the Westminster tories is sickening and the sooner we are rid of them the better.

[Moulin Yarns]

What about teachers?

Not front line enough for you?

Are teachers saving lives?

[heretoday]

Are teachers saving lives?

Behave!

[Keith_M]

I was going to say that I can't believe the reaction to this gesture from some posters but, sadly, it actually comes as no surprise.


TBH, my preference would have been to give them a pay rise but this is better than just doing nothing.

[Peevemor]

I was going to say that I can't believe the reaction to this gesture from some posters but, sadly, it actually comes as no surprise.


TBH, my preference would have been to give them a pay rise but this is better than just doing nothing.

And to think I was accused of being pathetic for making an "SNP baaaaad" observation a week or so ago. It's beyond belief.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-s-vainglorious-conference-speech/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Massie knows that yesterday was a good day for the SNP and NS but still has a good go at painting it negatively. Finished by conceding that they are losing big time.


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[Keith_M]

And to think I was accused of being pathetic for making an "SNP baaaaad" observation a week or so ago. It's beyond belief.


:agree:

[ronaldo7]

Isn’t it just doing the right thing to help people..? Sounds pretty sensible to me maybe the tories down south should try something similar..

The Tories offered a badge. Matt Hancock was very proud to be charging for it as well.

[Smartie]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-s-vainglorious-conference-speech/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Massie knows that yesterday was a good day for the SNP and NS but still has a good go at painting it negatively. Finished by conceding that they are losing big time.


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I like this Massie chap and seldom disagree with a word he has to say.

It's interesting that when it comes to the yes or no decision regarding independence that my opinion differs to his, but almost (!!) every step of the way up to there I am in agreement with him.

[danhibees1875]

I like this Massie chap and seldom disagree with a word he has to say.

It's interesting that when it comes to the yes or no decision regarding independence that my opinion differs to his, but almost (!!) every step of the way up to there I am in agreement with him.

I find that often with people. Most people want to get to a fairly similar destination, it just doesn't always look like it when no-ones got a sat nav.

[Ozyhibby]

I like this Massie chap and seldom disagree with a word he has to say.

It's interesting that when it comes to the yes or no decision regarding independence that my opinion differs to his, but almost (!!) every step of the way up to there I am in agreement with him.

He is very much a unionist to his core but admits that it’s no longer working for Scotland. Understands which way things are going. He is a good writer who has made a solid living over the last decade churning out almost daily article criticising the SNP and Scottish Govt although since brexit I think he has soften his stance on independence. Always worth reading though.


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[degenerated]

Someone should point that out to Ian Blackford as he had been in Twitter spouting his usual grievance... I loved this response fro a HM Treasury Spokeperson "We have provided£8.2bn extra funding for the Scottish Government this year to support people, businesses and public services, The Income Tax on these payments is paid to Scotland not Westminster- and the Scottish Government has the powers and funding to gross up the payment if it wishes"They then have to wait 2 years for that tax value to be reconciled bt hmrc.

[Ozyhibby]

They then have to wait 2 years for that tax value to be reconciled bt hmrc.

There are also implications for the individual taxpayer if the govt simply gross up the payment rather than exempt it. It could affect benefits or tax bands.


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[CropleyWasGod]

There are also implications for the individual taxpayer if the govt simply gross up the payment rather than exempt it. It could affect benefits or tax bands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree:

Not only that, Westminster gets increased NI.

[degenerated]

There are also implications for the individual taxpayer if the govt simply gross up the payment rather than exempt it. It could affect benefits or tax bands.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe establishment have got their big hitters like Andrew Neil defending the taxing of it on social media.

[ronaldo7]

There are also implications for the individual taxpayer if the govt simply gross up the payment rather than exempt it. It could affect benefits or tax bands.


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If only the most powerful devolved parliament in the world(Tory/Labour spin) had the simple power to exempt the tax involved.

[ronaldo7]

Someone should point that out to Ian Blackford as he had been in Twitter spouting his usual grievance... I loved this response fro a HM Treasury Spokeperson "We have provided£8.2bn extra funding for the Scottish Government this year to support people, businesses and public services, The Income Tax on these payments is paid to Scotland not Westminster- and the Scottish Government has the powers and funding to gross up the payment if it wishes"

So you're loving a statement from HM Treasury which will basically take more money out of Scottish people's pockets.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201201/80052139ec7c54208f0ceda10b08f4e1.jpg

Shameless.[emoji35]


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[Mon Dieu4]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201201/80052139ec7c54208f0ceda10b08f4e1.jpg

Shameless.[emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True story, I went on a couple of dates with a girl who used to be in charge of that twitter page, dunno if she still is or not, when I found out who she worked for there was no third date :greengrin

First time I've ever really looked at it, you would think it's satire or parody but nah it's just the Tories

[ronaldo7]

24121

[Berwickhibby]

So you're loving a statement from HM Treasury which will basically take more money out of Scottish people's pockets.

No loved the statement that showed the Blackford was spouting pish

[Berwickhibby]

24121

You do realise the tax goes back to to the Scottish Government.... and before you start I know that the NI goes to Westminster

[danhibees1875]

You do realise the tax goes back to to the Scottish Government.... and before you start I know that the NI goes to Westminster

:agree:

Which makes the decision not to let it be a tax free amount all the stranger really.

Sure, ScotGov could gross it up but then you'd have to consider the NI, and people's different tax bands, and any implications on benefits etc.

It would also mean ScotGov having to find more money to make the gesture now only to get the extra bit back 2 years later (not entirely sure how accurate that bit is, but in the future anyway) when using money to help people is more pivotal now (hopefully).

[marinello59]

:agree:

Which makes the decision not to let it be a tax free amount all the stranger really.

Sure, ScotGov could gross it up but then you'd have to consider the NI, and people's different tax bands, and any implications on benefits etc.

It would also mean ScotGov having to find more money to make the gesture now only to get the extra bit back 2 years later (not entirely sure how accurate that bit is, but in the future anyway) when using money to help people is more pivotal now (hopefully).

It's been a wonderful piece of politics from Sturgeon. She knew when she demanded that the UK make it tax exempt they were going to say No. She has totally out manoeuvred them. :greengrin

[heretoday]

It's been a wonderful piece of politics from Sturgeon. She knew when she demanded that the UK make it tax exempt they were going to say No. She has totally out manoeuvred them. :greengrin

A canny little minx - so she is!

[Jones28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201201/80052139ec7c54208f0ceda10b08f4e1.jpg

Shameless.[emoji35]


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Who looks at that and thinks “that’s a great play from the Torys”?

[greenlex]

Who looks at that and thinks “that’s a great play from the Torys”?
I look at it and think it’s surely satire. But no. :confused:

[18Craig75]

I must say I’m staggered at the amount of (unionists) people who can’t put their political beliefs aside and be happy for the NHS workers to have a boost in their wages. Sick of seeing “what about the bin men, what about me, why should a consultant get this...” - talk is cheap, clapping on doorsteps a photo opportunity. Hats of to the Scottish gov for giving these heroes something tangible as a thank you! I bet none of the moaners have had to wear full PPE for 12 hours straight. Probably the same people who moan about having to wear a mask in the shop.

[Killiehibbie]

I look at it and think it’s surely satire. But no. :confused:
You mean it really is their account?

[ronaldo7]

You do realise the tax goes back to to the Scottish Government.... and before you start I know that the NI goes to Westminster

I do know how the devolved income tax situation works thanks. It seems that Ian Murray didn't though. 😂

It's a pity we just can't exempt the tax ourselves, but that's what happens when you allow the Tories to run the show.

[degenerated]

Wee doogie having one here [emoji1787] He really is far from officer class.

https://twitter.com/RCunningham_MMM/status/1333823206881456130?s=19

[Jack]

I'm on the Have I Got News for You Facebook page.

They've mentioned the SG £500 and aligned it with something about 50p off car parking in England.

There's a lot of very bitter English people out there. Major and most consistent one is that we're (TSG/Scotland) paying for this with English taxpayers money lol

[Jones28]

Wee doogie having one here [emoji1787] He really is far from officer class.

https://twitter.com/RCunningham_MMM/status/1333823206881456130?s=19

What a prick 😂

Ramming independence- or “separation” as he called it - down the throat of the public when it should have been a discussion about the pandemic.

[Jones28]

I'm on the Have I Got News for You Facebook page.

They've mentioned the SG £500 and aligned it with something about 50p off car parking in England.

There's a lot of very bitter English people out there. Major and most consistent one is that we're (TSG/Scotland) paying for this with English taxpayers money lol

I had to come off a lot of national pages on Facebook as this was all that seemed to greet these kinds of announcements from huge amounts of people.

[DaveF]

Wee doogie having one here [emoji1787] He really is far from officer class.

https://twitter.com/RCunningham_MMM/status/1333823206881456130?s=19

That is embarrassing.

[degenerated]

That is embarrassing.The leaders debates will be a hoot with his petulant and belligerent nature.

[The Harp Awakes]

Wee doogie having one here [emoji1787] He really is far from officer class.

https://twitter.com/RCunningham_MMM/status/1333823206881456130?s=19

Looks like a guy way out of his depth there. Sounds like a spoilt bairn. Cringeworthy.

[degenerated]

I'm on the Have I Got News for You Facebook page.

They've mentioned the SG £500 and aligned it with something about 50p off car parking in England.

There's a lot of very bitter English people out there. Major and most consistent one is that we're (TSG/Scotland) paying for this with English taxpayers money lol

Of course English people are going to believe that as the main tactic the unionist parties have to keep Scotland in the union has been to propagate this myth, did they think it would go unheard in England or just not care that it causes resentment.

[Moulin Yarns]

I must say I’m staggered at the amount of (unionists) people who can’t put their political beliefs aside and be happy for the NHS workers to have a boost in their wages. Sick of seeing “what about the bin men, what about me, why should a consultant get this...” - talk is cheap, clapping on doorsteps a photo opportunity. Hats of to the Scottish gov for giving these heroes something tangible as a thank you! I bet none of the moaners have had to wear full PPE for 12 hours straight. Probably the same people who moan about having to wear a mask in the shop.

👍

[Ozyhibby]

I must say I’m staggered at the amount of (unionists) people who can’t put their political beliefs aside and be happy for the NHS workers to have a boost in their wages. Sick of seeing “what about the bin men, what about me, why should a consultant get this...” - talk is cheap, clapping on doorsteps a photo opportunity. Hats of to the Scottish gov for giving these heroes something tangible as a thank you! I bet none of the moaners have had to wear full PPE for 12 hours straight. Probably the same people who moan about having to wear a mask in the shop.

[emoji122]


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[allmodcons]

You couldn't make this up, the Scottish Conservatives complaining about the SNP Government's £500 bonus for NHS staff and just how terrible it all is before releasing a tweet saying it's us you should be thanking for the bonus!!!

As an aside, I've just been informed by STV that the Queen (aged 94) and Prince Philip (aged 99) are going to "lead by example" (just the sort of ****ing crap that makes my blood boil) and have a quiet Christmas at home (which one I wonder).

What the **** else do you do at Christmas aged 94 years and 99 years.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201201/da095b5205d3939f67dea861b36a1dab.jpg


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[1875godsgift]

You couldn't make this up, the Scottish Conservatives complaining about the SNP Government's £500 bonus for NHS staff and just how terrible it all is before releasing a tweet saying it's us you should be thanking for the bonus!!!

As an aside, I've just been informed by STV that the Queen (aged 94) and Prince Philip (aged 99) are going to "lead by example" (just the sort of ****ing crap that makes my blood boil) and have a quiet Christmas at home (which one I wonder).

What the **** else do you do at Christmas aged 94 years and 99 years.

I would be quite happy to have a quiet Christmas at home too if I had about 100 staff running about pandering to my every whim.

[lord bunberry]

Of course English people are going to believe that as the main tactic the unionist parties have to keep Scotland in the union has been to propagate this myth, did they think it would go unheard in England or just not care that it causes resentment.
The fact is on these pages you have Scottish people praising the union while the English people make it clear they’d rather Scotland left. It’s absolutely pitiful to read Scottish people sucking up to people who are basically telling them to **** off. The lack of self respect is embarrassing. I know it’s not necessarily a true reflection of everyone’s beliefs, but it always goes the same way.

[degenerated]

The fact is on these pages you have Scottish people praising the union while the English people make it clear they’d rather Scotland left. It’s absolutely pitiful to read Scottish people sucking up to people who are basically telling them to **** off. The lack of self respect is embarrassing. I know it’s not necessarily a true reflection of everyone’s beliefs, but it always goes the same way.I think social media just amplifies it as I'm sure that not all british unionists in Scotland are miserable self loathers, it just seems that way.

Twitter is even worse where streams of them, mostly huns, get positively tumescent at any misfortune that befalls Scotland. They seem to spend every waking minute trying to convince everyone, and themselves, that their homeland is an absolute sh*tehole that is incapable of mere survival without the benevolence of the English.

It must be a thoroughly miserable existence.

[Bristolhibby]

The fact is on these pages you have Scottish people praising the union while the English people make it clear they’d rather Scotland left. It’s absolutely pitiful to read Scottish people sucking up to people who are basically telling them to **** off. The lack of self respect is embarrassing. I know it’s not necessarily a true reflection of everyone’s beliefs, but it always goes the same way.

I replied to a post on the Bath rugby message board titled “Rob Roy off you go”.

This was the pick of the bunch.

“ I believe that the English should have a referendum as to whether we want to keep Scotland. We already subsidse them through the Barnett formula.
They only want independace from England and are happy to be dependant on the EU. I would let them go, make their own way with a new currency or the euro and customs checks at Greta Green. And if they think that Spain will allow them into full EU membership then Jimmy Crankie is even more deluded than I thought.”

I had pointed out if Scotland was such a drain on England, why do all the mainstream parties want to hold on to Scotland so badly?

J

[Berwickhibby]

It's the Sun, I know I Know, but if this is true, I cannot fathom what Salmond is trying to achieve https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/6350486/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-alex-salmond-pandemic/

[Ozyhibby]

It's the Sun, I know I Know, but if this is true, I cannot fathom what Salmond is trying to achieve https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/6350486/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-alex-salmond-pandemic/

He’s making a play to get back into the party and back into power. Not sure telling people what we should have done is the best way to do that. He’s finished as a potential leader but sure could cause a lot of trouble.
Without a credible opposition, Salmond has obviously decided to fill the gap.


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[Bostonhibby]

You couldn't make this up, the Scottish Conservatives complaining about the SNP Government's £500 bonus for NHS staff and just how terrible it all is before releasing a tweet saying it's us you should be thanking for the bonus!!!

As an aside, I've just been informed by STV that the Queen (aged 94) and Prince Philip (aged 99) are going to "lead by example" (just the sort of ****ing crap that makes my blood boil) and have a quiet Christmas at home (which one I wonder).

What the **** else do you do at Christmas aged 94 years and 99 years.

Now that Windsor is in tier 2 I heard that Phil the Greek will be popping down Wetherspoons for a couple of pints whilst Liz Boils the brussel sprouts before sitting down with a large Harvey's Bristol Cream and listening to herself on the telly.

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[One Day Soon]

It's the Sun, I know I Know, but if this is true, I cannot fathom what Salmond is trying to achieve https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/6350486/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-alex-salmond-pandemic/

I can. :wink:

[Keith_M]

It's the Sun, I know I Know, but if this is true, I cannot fathom what Salmond is trying to achieve https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/6350486/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-alex-salmond-pandemic/


Attention?


I'm with you, I don't see the point in that either.

[Lendo]

Wee doogie having one here [emoji1787] He really is far from officer class.

https://twitter.com/RCunningham_MMM/status/1333823206881456130?s=19

Holy ****, I just cringed myself inside out.

[Glory Lurker]

Yes 56 No 44, Ipsos Mori for STV (58-42 last time).

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/emily_ipsosmori/status/1334106516736106497?s=21


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[Moulin Yarns]

Yes 56 No 44, Ipsos Mori for STV (58-42 last time).

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-set-for-majority-at-2021-scottish-parliament-election

[One Day Soon]

Yes 56 No 44, Ipsos Mori for STV (58-42 last time).

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!


Isn't a sample size of 1000 a little small for these things or is that standard? Excludes undecides and don't knows I see, but that is pretty standard I think.

[JeMeSouviens]

Isn't a sample size of 1000 a little small for these things or is that standard? Excludes undecides and don't knows I see, but that is pretty standard I think.

1000-ish is the norm, so no straw to clutch there. :wink: Theoretically gives a 3% sampling error (or stated another way, 95% confidence that the result is to within +/- 3% accurate due to sampling error alone).

Including DKs it's 53-41, btw. 14th in a row to show Yes ahead on the standard question.

[One Day Soon]

1000-ish is the norm, so no straw to clutch there. :wink: Theoretically gives a 3% sampling error (or stated another way, 95% confidence that the result is to within +/- 3% accurate due to sampling error alone).

Including DKs it's 53-41, btw. 14th in a row to show Yes ahead on the standard question.


No straw clutching, I'm happy to see any poll showing travel back toward No - particularly in the middle of the Johnson 5hitfest and the daily Evita show.

I just thought they were usually at 1,500 or even 2,000.

[Moulin Yarns]

No straw clutching, I'm happy to see any poll showing travel back toward No - particularly in the middle of the Johnson 5hitfest and the daily Evita show.

I just thought they were usually at 1,500 or even 2,000.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0navfdj6TII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlEofxOm1j8

:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

No straw clutching, I'm happy to see any poll showing travel back toward No - particularly in the middle of the Johnson 5hitfest and the daily Evita show.

I just thought they were usually at 1,500 or even 2,000.

It might be travel toward the Johnson ****fest, it might just be a bit of sampling variation. I suspect the 58% Yes one was probably a wee bit of an outlier.

[One Day Soon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0navfdj6TII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlEofxOm1j8

:greengrin


That's the very one.

[One Day Soon]

It might be travel toward the Johnson ****fest, it might just be a bit of sampling variation. I suspect the 58% Yes one was probably a wee bit of an outlier.


My view is its broadly 50-50 with a soft centre of about 5% oscillating between yes and no depending on shorter term circumstances. Basically the same as it was in 2014.

Dismally, not decisive enough figures either way to put an end to all this time wasting pi5h any time soon.

[Ozyhibby]

My view is its broadly 50-50 with a soft centre of about 5% oscillating between yes and no depending on shorter term circumstances. Basically the same as it was in 2014.

Dismally, not decisive enough figures either way to put an end to all this time wasting pi5h any time soon.

That’s a very union positive way of looking at things.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

That's the very one.

At least no one is crying 😉

[Keith_M]

The Yes vote in the latest poll has gone down two percent since the last one, and there is an obvious variation between the numbers in each, but the fact is that Yes has now been ahead in every poll for months, which is surely significant.


I think having another referendum 'in our lifetime' is perfectly legitimate because of Brexit... which changed the whole landscape... but if the result is No, then that will most likely be and end to it.


We'll just have to wait and see what happens, I suppose.

[Ozyhibby]

If we can get Johnson to knock back a referendum and make Yes a vote for democracy then that would help a lot.


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[Mon Dieu4]

My view is its broadly 50-50 with a soft centre of about 5% oscillating between yes and no depending on shorter term circumstances. Basically the same as it was in 2014.

Dismally, not decisive enough figures either way to put an end to all this time wasting pi5h any time soon.

The last time the starting point was about 20/25% for yes was it not? Any lead is a fantastic position to be in for the yes campaign

[One Day Soon]

That’s a very union positive way of looking at things.[emoji23]


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Not really, that was pretty much how I felt about it after the actual referendum in 2014. 55% wasn't enough to settle it, it was always going to rumble on.

And there's nothing positive about it for either side. I've said before we need one side or the other to be at 60% plus - preferably closer to 70% even - so that if there were another vote it would either kill the notion or make it happen in a way that didn't leave a long bitter legacy.

[One Day Soon]

The Yes vote in the latest poll has gone down two percent since the last one, and there is an obvious variation between the numbers in each, but the fact is that Yes has now been ahead in every poll for months, which is surely significant.


I think having another referendum 'in our lifetime' is perfectly legitimate because of Brexit... which changed the whole landscape... but if the result is No, then that will most likely be and end to it.


We'll just have to wait and see what happens, I suppose.


This is exactly what No supporters thought after 2014. Look what eventually happened. Voters are fickle and we currently have an unhappily split nation.

[One Day Soon]

The last time the starting point was about 20/25% for yes was it not? Any lead is a fantastic position to be in for the yes campaign

Sure, a much better position for Yes at the minute. But the notion that because Yes started lower and got to 45% last time will somehow mean that if it starts at say 56% then it will automatically go up from there too is just nonsense. Like I said, we broadly have two halves of Scotland entrenched in opposition to one another and a very small number in the middle who are the swing voters. That isn't a good thing.

[JimBHibees]

I replied to a post on the Bath rugby message board titled “Rob Roy off you go”.

This was the pick of the bunch.

“ I believe that the English should have a referendum as to whether we want to keep Scotland. We already subsidse them through the Barnett formula.
They only want independace from England and are happy to be dependant on the EU. I would let them go, make their own way with a new currency or the euro and customs checks at Greta Green. And if they think that Spain will allow them into full EU membership then Jimmy Crankie is even more deluded than I thought.”

I had pointed out if Scotland was such a drain on England, why do all the mainstream parties want to hold on to Scotland so badly?

J

Nail on the head.

[CloudSquall]

Above 55% before a campaign, I can see Yes hitting well over 60% during a campaign.

The unionist side is being reduced to the ultra "No Surrender" Ibrox crew, oldies who get the flegs out for a Night at the Proms, and the Alistair Darling / Ruth Davidson "well...of course we could be independent... BUT...." cringe types.

[One Day Soon]

Above 55% before a campaign, I can see Yes hitting well over 60% during a campaign.

The unionist side is being reduced to the ultra "No Surrender" Ibrox crew, oldies who get the flegs out for a Night at the Proms, and the Alistair Darling / Ruth Davidson "well...of course we could be independent... BUT...." cringe types.


If you really think that 44% of the country (currently) is composed of only those three groups then I think you've lost the plot.

[Berwickhibby]

If you really think that 44% of the country (currently) is composed of only those three groups then I think you've lost the plot.

Spot on

[Callum_62]

How many polls in a row having yes ahead before we have an appetite for independance again?

That little nugget has seemed to disappear off the face of the earth

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[McD]

Above 55% before a campaign, I can see Yes hitting well over 60% during a campaign.

The unionist side is being reduced to the ultra "No Surrender" Ibrox crew, oldies who get the flegs out for a Night at the Proms, and the Alistair Darling / Ruth Davidson "well...of course we could be independent... BUT...." cringe types.


really dismissive and arrogant way to describe anyone who may disagree with you for a variety of reasons, all of which they’re entitled to.

how do you expect to win the hearts and minds of people who could be won over to the Yes side when you’re insulting them and clearly have made your mind up about them without listening to any of their thoughts and concerns?

[One Day Soon]

Spot on

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.

If Sturgeon was a smarter politician and less tribal she'd be genuinely wooing No voters. A kind of more in sorrow than in anger approach. Unfortunately for her she's angry, very, very angry. A much more patrician female or male leader might take the lead higher than it is. I think she will be gone during next year so we may get a chance to see, though I'm not sure who the figure would be who could fit that description. Angus Robertson would be quite funny.

[Berwickhibby]

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.

If Sturgeon was a smarter politician and less tribal she'd be genuinely wooing No voters. A kind of more in sorrow than in anger approach. Unfortunately for her she's angry, very, very angry. A much more patrician female or male leader might take the lead higher than it is. I think she will be gone during next year so we may get a chance to see, though I'm not sure who the figure would be who could fit that description. Angus Robertson would be quite funny.

That's will be the same Angus Robertson who complained on Twitter about Union Flags being on the Oxford vaccine vials ... what we need is a John Smith type leader in Scotland

[Kato]

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.





The unionist side is being reduced to the ultra "No Surrender" Ibrox crew, oldies who get the flegs out for a Night at the Proms, and the Alistair Darling / Ruth Davidson "well...of course we could be independent... BUT...." cringe types.


Stereotype much?

[Mon Dieu4]

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.

If Sturgeon was a smarter politician and less tribal she'd be genuinely wooing No voters. A kind of more in sorrow than in anger approach. Unfortunately for her she's angry, very, very angry. A much more patrician female or male leader might take the lead higher than it is. I think she will be gone during next year so we may get a chance to see, though I'm not sure who the figure would be who could fit that description. Angus Robertson would be quite funny.

Only a few hours ago you admitted its basically 50/50 with a small number of votes to play for as either side is "entrenched in opposition"

Now you think Sturgeon should somehow be wooing no voters, it's like you just keep saying stuff that contradicts what you've already said as somehow it can be used as a dig at other people

[allmodcons]

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.

If Sturgeon was a smarter politician and less tribal she'd be genuinely wooing No voters. A kind of more in sorrow than in anger approach. Unfortunately for her she's angry, very, very angry. A much more patrician female or male leader might take the lead higher than it is. I think she will be gone during next year so we may get a chance to see, though I'm not sure who the figure would be who could fit that description. Angus Robertson would be quite funny.

Dearie me ODS. You said recently you'd not been sleeping too well and not exercising enough.

It's clearly having an affect.


First you follow some nutjob Nationalists on Twitter and then you're back to the wishful thinking pish about Sturgeon. You might not like her but take a look at her satisfaction ratings and point me to another leader in a western democracy who can boast similar support amongst the voting public.

Not your finest moment.

[One Day Soon]

Only a few hours ago you admitted its basically 50/50 with a small number of votes to play for as either side is "entrenched in opposition"

Now you think Sturgeon should somehow be wooing no voters, it's like you just keep saying stuff that contradicts what you've already said as somehow it can be used as a dig at other people


Where's the contradiction? Your side need to win more than 50% if there's another referendum. I'm arguing that to give Scotland a chance of coming together in such a post-independence scenario then winning with over 60% would be ideal and to do this she needs to be wooing No voters too - the hardest to get votes in other words.

[One Day Soon]

Dearie me ODS. You said recently you'd not been sleeping too well and not exercising enough.

It's clearly having an affect.


First you follow some nutjob Nationalists on Twitter and then you're back to the wishful thinking pish about Sturgeon. You might not like her but take a look at her satisfaction ratings and point me to another leader in a western democracy who can boast similar support amongst the voting public.

Not your finest moment.


Trust me I don't follow nut-job nationalists on twitter but they do sometimes get retweeted into my timeline unfortunately.

You may think the Sturgeon stuff is wishful thinking - and if we were just talking normal politics as they are now (your poll ratings and all) then I'd agree with you - but I'm talking about what I think are the likely consequences of the current enquiry, Mr Salmond's as yet unfinished business and what may yet move into the public domain. I think there will be resignations plural before this is over. Accepted, if that doesn't get her then she'll likely remain in office.

[Mon Dieu4]

Where's the contradiction? Your side need to win more than 50% if there's another referendum. I'm arguing that to give Scotland a chance of coming together in such a post-independence scenario then winning with over 60% would be ideal and to do this she needs to be wooing No voters too - the hardest to get votes in other words.

Entrenched in opposition, your words not mine, says to me that those people are never changing their minds no matter what she or anyone else does, but she should still be trying to woo them, if Brexit, Tory austerity, the bedroom tax, rape clauses, free prescriptions, free further education and countless other things haven't changed their minds then what is she going to do, offer them some chips?

[One Day Soon]

Stereotype much?

View twitter much?

[One Day Soon]

Entrenched in opposition, your words not mine, says to me that those people are never changing their minds no matter what she or anyone else does, but she should still be trying to woo them, if Brexit, Tory austerity, the bedroom tax, rape clauses, free prescriptions, free further education and countless other things haven't changed their minds then what is she going to do, offer them some chips?

Even entrenched views can be changed eventually. Look at some of the seismic shifts that have taken place in both Scottish and British politics over the last decade.

The current 44% won't be shifted by the things you list, they're in the 44% because they think independence will be a bad thing. It's the consequences of independence she somehow needs to reassure or shift them on. I'm just not sure she can. It may need a kind of Andrew Wilson figure but without the smugness or glibness and probably not the association with Fred the Shred either.

[allmodcons]

That's will be the same Angus Robertson who complained on Twitter about Union Flags being on the Oxford vaccine vials ... what we need is a John Smith type leader in Scotland

John Smith never led anything except the Labour Party for a less than couple of years.

He never headed up any Government so without a track record of any description and given that he never had an opportunity to govern I really don't get why you can say we need a "John Smith type leader in Scotland".

[One Day Soon]

John Smith never led anything except the Labour Party for a less than couple of years.

He never headed up any Government so without a track record of any description and given that he never had an opportunity to govern I really don't get why you can say we need a "John Smith type leader in Scotland".

Why wouldn't we want a John Smith type leader in Scotland? Of any party.

[Kato]

View twitter much?

Yes, but I don't judge people by their posts on there, whatever "side" they are on.

I also find it hard to judge given the amount of fake accounts presenting extremes which rubes take seriously.

Ignore the extremes on twitter and you get an inkling as to what people are feeling and thinking, maybe but it's difficult so hardly worth the bother. I left twitter a year ago but still dip in every now and again. It hasn't improved much.

All in all it allowed a coarsening of political discussion where emotions are invoked way too much. From what I hear Facebook is worse. Never understood the attraction myself.

[One Day Soon]

Yes, but I don't judge people by their posts on there, whatever "side" they are on.

I also find it hard to judge given the amount of fake accounts presenting extremes which rubes take seriously.

Ignore the extremes on twitter and you get an inkling as to what people are feeling and thinking, maybe but it's difficult so hardly worth the bother. I left twitter a year ago but still dip in every now and again. It hasn't improved much.

All in all it allowed a coarsening of political discussion where emotions are invoked way too much. From what I hear Facebook is worse. Never understood the attraction myself.


Yeah, I'm a bit torn on that. On the one hand it definitely doesn't represent the wider country. On the other people say things on Twitter that they almost certainly wouldn't say in real life but which they also almost certainly really do think. I'm not on Facebook, I dipped in briefly and then retreated very fast.

Social media has a lot to answer for, answer for, answer for, answer for...

[allmodcons]

Trust me I don't follow nut-job nationalists on twitter but they do sometimes get retweeted into my timeline unfortunately.

You may think the Sturgeon stuff is wishful thinking - and if we were just talking normal politics as they are now (your poll ratings and all) then I'd agree with you - but I'm talking about what I think are the likely consequences of the current enquiry, Mr Salmond's as yet unfinished business and what may yet move into the public domain. I think there will be resignations plural before this is over. Accepted, if that doesn't get her then she'll likely remain in office.

It's unfortunate that you felt the need to "retweet" their sorry comments on here.

By the way, did you really mean to use the term "patrician" and by "male" do you mean any man?

[allmodcons]

Why wouldn't we want a John Smith type leader in Scotland? Of any party.

He was loved by the Labour Party and I get that but nobody has any idea how he would have coped as someone in Government let alone as a Prime Minister or First Minister.

There is no track record on which to judge him.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm a bit torn on that. On the one hand it definitely doesn't represent the wider country. On the other people say things on Twitter that they almost certainly wouldn't say in real life but which they also almost certainly really do think. I'm not on Facebook, I dipped in briefly and then retreated very fast.

Social media has a lot to answer for, answer for, answer for, answer for...


Yeah, I don't think it's doing you any favours with that post earlier with the angry "nut jobs" and the "tribal" and "very, very angry" Nicola Sturgeon. Your painting a picture from a twitter palette that doesn't seem very real to me.

Do you really see the FM as a tribal, very very angry person?

[One Day Soon]

It's unfortunate that you felt the need to "retweet" their sorry comments on here.

By the way, did you really mean to use the term "patrician" and by "male" do you mean any man?


You're being a bit sensitive there AMS. They exist and just like the nut jobs on the Unionist fringe they hold very unpleasant views - as some of your fellow Nationalist posters point out from time to time.

Yes I meant to use the term patrician - in style, not in aristocratic background. That's what I think might work with No voters. I said female or male, what am I missing on the meaning of 'male'?

[One Day Soon]

He was loved by the Labour Party and I get that but nobody has any idea how he would have coped as someone in Government let alone as a Prime Minister or First Minister.

There is no track record on which to judge him.


He was very intelligent, an outstanding speaker, a great human being, very, very funny and held in high regard across politics. I wish any and all of our current leaders in Scotland could fit that description.

[Berwickhibby]

He was very intelligent, an outstanding speaker, a great human being, very, very funny and held in high regard across politics. I wish any and all of our current leaders in Scotland could fit that description.

I admired and respected John Smith, he was articulate, honest and to be honest his manner convinced me to be a modern socialist.

[allmodcons]

You're being a bit sensitive there AMS. They exist and just like the nut jobs on the Unionist fringe they hold very unpleasant views - as some of your fellow Nationalist posters point out from time to time.

Yes I meant to use the term patrician - in style, not in aristocratic background. That's what I think might work with No voters. I said female or male, what am I missing on the meaning of 'male'?

I'm a sensitive individual.

Thanks for clearing up the second point. I was just about to call you out as a misogynist :wink:

I'm not surprised to see your views on Independence are as entrenched as ever but what do you make of Duncan MacLennan's conversion to cause?

[One Day Soon]

Yeah, I don't think it's doing you any favours with that post earlier with the angry "nut jobs" and the "tribal" and "very, very angry" Nicola Sturgeon. Your painting a picture from a twitter palette that doesn't seem very real to me.

Do you really see the FM as a tribal, very very angry person?


Firstly, yes I see her as both tribal and angry. An extremely well controlled and presented public image these days but not a lot more to her than that.

If you don't think those people exist then you weren't out much in the last referendum and you haven't seen what the nutters do from time to time at the border and in other circumstances. Do I think that those people represent mainstream nationalism? No. That wasn't the point of my earlier post though.

[bigwheel]

Firstly, yes I see her as both tribal and angry. An extremely well controlled and presented public image these days but not a lot more to her than that.

If you don't think those people exist then you weren't out much in the last referendum and you haven't seen what the nutters do from time to time at the border and in other circumstances. Do I think that those people represent mainstream nationalism? No. That wasn't the point of my earlier post though.

Honestly, if you don’t see political depth in NS (regardless of whether you share the same views or not ) then you are choosing to be blind to her....

She is as strong and competent a politician as any we have in the UK today....


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[allmodcons]

He was very intelligent, an outstanding speaker, a great human being, very, very funny and held in high regard across politics. I wish any and all of our current leaders in Scotland could fit that description.


I admired and respected John Smith, he was articulate, honest and to be honest his manner convinced me to be a modern socialist.

None of which I doubt, but it's easier to be held in regard across politics when you are not in Government taking hard decisions on a whole range of difficult issues.

As I said no track record on which to judge him.

[One Day Soon]

I'm a sensitive individual.

Thanks for clearing up the second point. I was just about to call you out as a misogynist :wink:

I'm not surprised to see your views on Independence are as entrenched as ever but what do you make of Duncan MacLennan's conversion to cause?


TBF to me it did say female in the original post. Never been called a misogynist before.

Duncan Maclennan works at Policy Scotland alongside well known nationalist Iain Docherty - when he's not living in Canada I believe. I find his conversion unsurprising for a number of reasons. Let's just say he's taken the Murray Foote route...:wink:

[Hiber-nation]

Yeah, I don't think it's doing you any favours with that post earlier with the angry "nut jobs" and the "tribal" and "very, very angry" Nicola Sturgeon. Your painting a picture from a twitter palette that doesn't seem very real to me.

Do you really see the FM as a tribal, very very angry person?

I'm still shaking my head at that. Maybe ODS just avoids her TV appearances and doesn't really know what she's like?

[allmodcons]

TBF to me it did say female in the original post. Never been called a misogynist before.

Duncan Maclennan works at Policy Scotland alongside well known nationalist Iain Docherty - when he's not living in Canada I believe. I find his conversion unsurprising for a number of reasons. Let's just say he's taken the Murray Foote route...:wink:

......and you still haven't been called a misogynist.

Duncan MacLennan is a well respected Economist and former Adviser to Donald Dewar. I suspect it's been a long journey for him.

Bit of mental question this one, but do you know David Begg?

[Moulin Yarns]

John Smith never led anything except the Labour Party for a less than couple of years.

He never headed up any Government so without a track record of any description and given that he never had an opportunity to govern I really don't get why you can say we need a "John Smith type leader in Scotland".

What he really means is he wants Sarah Smith to lead Labour 😉

[One Day Soon]

Honestly, if you don’t see political depth in NS (regardless of whether you share the same views or not ) then you are choosing to be blind to her....

She is as strong and competent a politician as any we have in the UK today....


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Well firstly that really isn't saying much with such a low bar.

I didn't say I didn't see any political depth in her. She's an excellent politician - articulate, carefully composed and presented, never misses a political opportunity, almost complete control of her party and ruthlessly on message. Unfortunately that just isn't the same thing as being a good national leader. I think she's weak on substance, both light and inconsistent on policy, prone to administration by news agenda and puts the independence project before all else every single time.

Then there's the real truth of the Salmond affair...

[One Day Soon]

I'm still shaking my head at that. Maybe ODS just avoids her TV appearances and doesn't really know what she's like?

Some of us knew her before she was FM or even an MSP.

[One Day Soon]

......and you still haven't been called a misogynist.

Duncan MacLennan is a well respected Economist and former Adviser to Donald Dewar. I suspect it's been a long journey for him.

Bit of mental question this one, but do you know David Begg?


Duncan is well respected, that is absolutely true. And a lovely guy to boot.

What's the David Begg connection?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah, I don't think it's doing you any favours with that post earlier with the angry "nut jobs" and the "tribal" and "very, very angry" Nicola Sturgeon. Your painting a picture from a twitter palette that doesn't seem very real to me.

Do you really see the FM as a tribal, very very angry person?

And he also called the daily briefings the Evita show 🙄

[One Day Soon]

And he also called the daily briefings the Evita show 🙄

Terrible eh? How dare I not fawn on the FM?

[Berwickhibby]

Some of us knew her before she was FM or even an MSP.

I know what you mean, I knew Pete Wishart pre his Runrig days... my opinion of him then was not very high...not changed my opinion on him

[Moulin Yarns]

I know what you mean, I knew Pete Wishart pre his Runrig days... my opinion of him then was not very high...not changed my opinion on him

He is my MP, and I share those views.

[The Modfather]

Looking at the real nut job pro-Indy types on twitter you are given the unmistakable impression that they'd like to throw the pro-Union traitors in prison or send them to live in England. But with Scotland split on these numbers it's not entirely clear who would be throwing who in prison.

If Sturgeon was a smarter politician and less tribal she'd be genuinely wooing No voters. A kind of more in sorrow than in anger approach. Unfortunately for her she's angry, very, very angry. A much more patrician female or male leader might take the lead higher than it is. I think she will be gone during next year so we may get a chance to see, though I'm not sure who the figure would be who could fit that description. Angus Robertson would be quite funny.

What is it unionists or Boris are doing to win round yes voters (like me)? Surely it’s as important, if not more so given the sustained lead Yes appears to have, to win round supporters of the other side?

For all the faults of The SNP or the yes side I’ve genuinely not seen much upselling of the union or a vision of what it will look like going forward as almost no one is happy with it in its current guise. Project Fear 2 is a losing strategy as how things looked in 2014 doesn’t exist anymore.

[Moulin Yarns]

Terrible eh? How dare I not fawn on the FM?

That's not what I meant and you know it. You are quick to attack people who do not agree with you. 👋

[One Day Soon]

He is my MP, and I share those views.

I'm trying to sympathise but you'll be aware of the state of some Labour elected representatives...

[Berwickhibby]

He is my MP, and I share those views.

Jings...I need to sit down ....we agree on something :greengrin

[allmodcons]

Well firstly that really isn't saying much with such a low bar.

I didn't say I didn't see any political depth in her. She's an excellent politician - articulate, carefully composed and presented, never misses a political opportunity, almost complete control of her party and ruthlessly on message. Unfortunately that just isn't the same thing as being a good national leader. I think she's weak on substance, both light and inconsistent on policy, prone to administration by news agenda and puts the independence project before all else every single time.

Then there's the real truth of the Salmond affair...

I don't agree with your critique of NS but the bit in bold made me laugh. According a fairly vocal minority in the Nationalist camp she doesn't support Independence at all!

Regarding AS he has nobody to blame for his troubles but himself. Cleared in court (I know) but nonetheless a 'womaniser' and unfaithful husband.

A man I have met and spoken with on a few occasions. One of my favourite politicians but I feel badly let down by him.

I could be wrong but think he wanted Sturgeon to turn a blind eye to a problem he created and she refused.

[One Day Soon]

What is it unionists or Boris are doing to win round yes voters (like me)? Surely it’s as important, if not more so given the sustained lead Yes appears to have, to win round supporters of the other side?

For all the faults of The SNP or the yes side I’ve genuinely not seen much upselling of the union or a vision of what it will look like going forward as almost no one is happy with it in its current guise. Project Fear 2 is a losing strategy as how things looked in 2014 doesn’t exist anymore.


A good and fair question. The answer seems to be throwing more petrol on the fire. I want them to be doing a lot better, even just stopping making things worse would be a good beginning. Anyway, I'm beginning to regret musing out loud on how the Yes side might raise its numbers.

[One Day Soon]

That's not what I meant and you know it. You are quick to attack people who do not agree with you. 👋


Honestly MY I didn't pick up what you meant. What did you mean?

[allmodcons]

Duncan is well respected, that is absolutely true. And a lovely guy to boot.

What's the David Begg connection?

He was a Lecturer of mine a long time ago :rolleyes:.

Good Hibee and a keen Labour supporter. Don't know just thought you might know him.

[One Day Soon]

I don't agree with your critique of NS but the bit bold made me laugh. According a fairly vocal minority in the Nationalist camp she doesn't support Independence at all!

Regarding AS he has nobody to blame for his troubles but himself. Cleared in court (I know) but nonetheless a 'womaniser' and unfaithful husband.

A man I have met and spoken with on a few occasions. One of my favourite politicians but I feel badly let down by him.

I could be wrong but think he wanted Sturgeon to turn a blind eye to a problem he created and she refused.


WTF? Nicola Sturgeon doesn't support independence at all? :paranoid:

I think you may need to review your membership rules!

[One Day Soon]

He was a Lecturer of mine a long time ago :rolleyes:.

Good Hibee and a keen Labour supporter. Don't know just thought you might know him.


Yes I know him - or at least of him. Mr Greenways. I imagine our taxi driving brothers and sisters on here will certainly remember him!

[allmodcons]

WTF? Nicola Sturgeon doesn't support independence at all? :paranoid:

I think you may need to review your membership rules!

Happy collecting her salary as FM and not really interested in going beyond the current devolution settlement apparently.

Granted it's a small minority but they are noisy barstewards.

[bigwheel]

Well firstly that really isn't saying much with such a low bar.

I didn't say I didn't see any political depth in her. She's an excellent politician - articulate, carefully composed and presented, never misses a political opportunity, almost complete control of her party and ruthlessly on message. Unfortunately that just isn't the same thing as being a good national leader. I think she's weak on substance, both light and inconsistent on policy, prone to administration by news agenda and puts the independence project before all else every single time.

Then there's the real truth of the Salmond affair...

You can’t see past her political opinion. You said there was nothing more to her than well controlled presentation....her public support has soared during a crisis. He consistency, clarity and integrity has outshine any other leader in the UK. She is a bright, strategic thinker, strong communicator and has a track record of delivering on a decent level of her commitments. I say that as someone who has major reservations around some of their key policies. to suggest she is a weak leader can only be coming from a non objective place. Most opposition analysts would recognise the quality politician that she is.


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[One Day Soon]

Happy collecting her salary as FM and not really interested in going beyond the current devolution settlement apparently.

Granted it's a small minority but they are noisy barstewards.


Keep them off Twitter :wink:

[Future17]

He was very intelligent, an outstanding speaker, a great human being, very, very funny and held in high regard across politics. I wish any and all of our current leaders in Scotland could fit that description.

All very well, but was he patrician enough for you?

[allmodcons]

All very well, but was he patrician enough for you?

Word of the night.

[One Day Soon]

You can’t see past her political opinion. You said there was nothing more to her than well controlled presentation....her public support has soared during a crisis. He consistency, clarity and integrity has outshine any other leader in the UK. She is a bright, strategic thinker, strong communicator and has a track record of delivering on a decent level of her commitments. I say that as someone who has major reservations around some of their key policies. to suggest she is a weak leader can only be coming from a non objective place. Most opposition analysts would recognise the quality politician that she is.


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Her polling strength is as much a product of the weakness - no, the complete lack - of her opposition as anything else. She has no effective opposition, has been buoyed up by the rise of identity politics in western democracies and now has the idiot Boris Johnson to be compared with while having her own personal press conference unchallenged by any opposition day after day after day.

Very good politician, no great leader.

[One Day Soon]

All very well, but was he patrician enough for you?

Why would he have needed to be?

[bigwheel]

Her polling strength is as much a product of the weakness - no, the complete lack - of her opposition as anything else. She has no effective opposition, has been buoyed up by the rise of identity politics in western democracies and now has the idiot Boris Johnson to be compared with while having her own personal press conference unchallenged by any opposition day after day after day.

Very good politician, no great leader.

Reads like a daily express article this.....


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[One Day Soon]

Reads like a daily express article this.....


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I wouldn't know. Do you have a subscription?

[bigwheel]

I wouldn't know. Do you have a subscription?

....not required, I can read your posts .


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[One Day Soon]

....not required, I can read your posts .


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Glad to help. It's important to hear a range of views, even in an echo chamber.

[Future17]

Why would he have needed to be?

To have led the people you feel Sturgeon can't?

[The Harp Awakes]

Her polling strength is as much a product of the weakness - no, the complete lack - of her opposition as anything else. She has no effective opposition, has been buoyed up by the rise of identity politics in western democracies and now has the idiot Boris Johnson to be compared with while having her own personal press conference unchallenged by any opposition day after day after day.

Very good politician, no great leader.

So NS is a very good politician, but her success is because she has no effective opposition/has been buoyed by the rise in identity politics, and is no great leader. Do you really believe that? :faf:

You are either deluding yourself or you are blinded by your own political beliefs. The Labour Party has suffered the same afflictions for the last 30 years and that is a big factor why their support in Scotland has been decimated over that time. They are still in denial and as long as they are, support for independence will increase.

NS like every other human being has strengths and weaknesses and to an extent you are correct that Boris being completely useless makes NS look better. However she has many leadership qualities; she's resilient, a good communicator, is eloquent, trustworthy and compassionate. I have first hand experience of her qualities in my day job, and I can assure you she ticks all of those boxes. She was voted this year as being in the top 5 most eloquent leaders in the world, so that suggests she is not just a big fish in a small pond. Quite an achievement for a Scottish leader.

You correctly recognise that Boris is doing no favours for those who want Scotland to remain in the UK. However, your dismissive views about NS' success and presumably the doubling in support for Scottish independence between 2013 and 2020, as being due to 'identity' politics, is quite a statement. It's akin to the complacent views of the Westminster tories.

There is a job up for grabs in the next Better Together campaign, and from a personal point of view I would robustly encourage you to apply for it :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

So NS is a very good politician, but her success is because she has no effective opposition/has been buoyed by the rise in identity politics, and is no great leader. Do you really believe that? :faf:




fantastic leader and many world leaders have said so as well :agree: does the country proud

[G B Young]

I don't agree with your critique of NS but the bit in bold made me laugh. According a fairly vocal minority in the Nationalist camp she doesn't support Independence at all!

Regarding AS he has nobody to blame for his troubles but himself. Cleared in court (I know) but nonetheless a 'womaniser' and unfaithful husband.

A man I have met and spoken with on a few occasions. One of my favourite politicians but I feel badly let down by him.

I could be wrong but think he wanted Sturgeon to turn a blind eye to a problem he created and she refused.

She has suggested as much herself:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54499068

[degenerated]

I know what you mean, I knew Pete Wishart pre his Runrig days... my opinion of him then was not very high...not changed my opinion on himI support independence and have never met him but your views on him are probably more favourable than mine :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Happy collecting her salary as FM and not really interested in going beyond the current devolution settlement apparently.

Granted it's a small minority but they are noisy barstewards.
They certainly are, some of them i considered to be quite sensible before they started with all this nonsense. I think most of them take their lead from the man in Bath.

[Ozyhibby]

This thread over the last wee while has shown that nobody is making the case for the union anymore. Lots saying NS is useless or the SG is hopeless but not a single poster saying anything positive about Westminster rule.


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[Ozyhibby]

They certainly are, some of them i considered to be quite sensible before they started with all this nonsense. I think most of them take their lead from the man in Bath.

It’s mental at a time when it’s clear that plan A is working so well and a refusal of a s30 order is something that Yes should seek to help build the case for democracy.


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[Jack]

This thread over the last wee while has shown that nobody is making the case for the union anymore. Lots saying NS is useless or the SG is hopeless but not a single poster saying anything positive about Westminster rule.


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Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.

It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.

They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting.

[One Day Soon]

Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.

It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.

They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting.


You mean the ever shrinking minority that just went back up in the poll you are referring to? So, not actually ever shrinking.

[Ozyhibby]

You mean the ever shrinking minority that just went back up in the poll you are referring to? So, not actually ever shrinking.

Yesterday’s poll was a huge success for unionists. [emoji23][emoji23]


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[The Modfather]

You mean the ever shrinking minority that just went back up in the poll you are referring to? So, not actually ever shrinking.

There is a negative case (as well as a positive one) for independence, as there is with any change. What I’m not sure of is if there still exists a positive case for the union as it is today. It’s certainly not being made, as you acknowledged, but can it be made?

My problem is that change is needed in the union (Westminster) whether we leave or not, but I can’t see any meaningful change ever happening regardless. It’s not just Scotland that is unhappy, what will change for the large the parts of the country outside the South East of England who are also unhappy?

[marinello59]

Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.

It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.

They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting.

Can we please not equate criticism of the SNP government with support for the Union. :greengrin

[DaveF]

Yesterday’s poll was a huge success for unionists. [emoji23][emoji23]


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I love how these polls are interpreted.

Yes at 58% - it's an outlier. An anomaly.
Yes drops 2% - Believe the numbers. The union is back.

[Jack]

You mean the ever shrinking minority that just went back up in the poll you are referring to? So, not actually ever shrinking.

Support for the union is and you know it. If a slight dip in a single poll is all you have as comfort so be it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I love how these polls are interpreted.

Yes at 58% - it's an outlier. An anomaly.
Yes drops 2% - Believe the numbers. The union is back.

It's all about the trends:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Scottish_independence_polling_with_local_regressio n_fit.png

[JeMeSouviens]

There is a negative case (as well as a positive one) for independence, as there is with any change. What I’m not sure of is if there still exists a positive case for the union as it is today. It’s certainly not being made, as you acknowledged, but can it be made?

My problem is that change is needed in the union (Westminster) whether we leave or not, but I can’t see any meaningful change ever happening regardless. It’s not just Scotland that is unhappy, what will change for the large the parts of the country outside the South East of England who are also unhappy?

The problem with "a positive case for the Union" is that it's very different to very different strands of Unionists:

For Tories it's "let's rule the waves, we had an empire, God Save the Queen!". For Labour it's "solidarity brothers and sisters, let's build the workers' nirvana together".

One is a turnoff for most Scots, certainly the ones already in the Yes camp, the other most of us have given up on because it's stark staringly obvious it's an enormous task with layers of insurmountability and totally against the direction of travel in rUK.

Their best bet is undoubtedly Project Fear 2 to the max, and I fully expect them to realise this and go absolutely hell for leather on it.

[One Day Soon]

So NS is a very good politician, but her success is because she has no effective opposition/has been buoyed by the rise in identity politics, and is no great leader. Do you really believe that? :faf:

You are either deluding yourself or you are blinded by your own political beliefs. The Labour Party has suffered the same afflictions for the last 30 years and that is a big factor why their support in Scotland has been decimated over that time. They are still in denial and as long as they are, support for independence will increase.

In the first para you claim it's not because she has no effective opposition and then in the second para you make a point of saying that Labour's afflictions are driving increased support for independence. :rolleyes:
NS like every other human being has strengths and weaknesses and to an extent you are correct that Boris being completely useless makes NS look better. However she has many leadership qualities; she's resilient, a good communicator, is eloquent, trustworthy and compassionate. I have first hand experience of her qualities in my day job, and I can assure you she ticks all of those boxes. She was voted this year as being in the top 5 most eloquent leaders in the world, so that suggests she is not just a big fish in a small pond. Quite an achievement for a Scottish leader.

She was voted one of the top five speakers by what appears to be literally two public speaking trainers operating out of an office in Guildford.

You correctly recognise that Boris is doing no favours for those who want Scotland to remain in the UK. However, your dismissive views about NS' success and presumably the doubling in support for Scottish independence between 2013 and 2020, as being due to 'identity' politics, is quite a statement. It's akin to the complacent views of the Westminster tories.

There is a job up for grabs in the next Better Together campaign, and from a personal point of view I would robustly encourage you to apply for it :greengrin

Identity politics: https://www.theweek.co.uk/104473/what-is-identity-politics

"Identity politics generally refers to a subset of politics in which groups of people with particular shared racial, religious, ethnic, social or cultural identity seek to promote their own specific interests or concerns.Rather than organising solely around belief systems, manifestos or party affiliation, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-politics/) says, identity politics “typically aim[s] to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalised within its larger context”."

[CloudSquall]

I imagine the line of attack from the No campaign will be the currency, "internal market", and deficit.

The Yes side will need to shore up the arguments on these subjects, and also prepare for Dougie Alexander's heartfelt plee to remember the opening ceremony to the 2012 Olympics.

[One Day Soon]

This thread over the last wee while has shown that nobody is making the case for the union anymore. Lots saying NS is useless or the SG is hopeless but not a single poster saying anything positive about Westminster rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Firstly that isn't true - you'd better inform Neil Oliver that he didn't write the piece he just wrote.

Secondly when the points are made on the case for the Union they are generally dismissed by people who have already made up their minds and don't want to engage on points of substance around the financial and economic benefits of the union, let alone how they would seek to replace those.

Thirdly you should not conflate the performance of Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government with the case for or against independence. I may think that her and Salmond coasted for 13 years deliberately doing as little as possible so as not to scare the horses in trying to creep up on independence, you may think she is the very bestest thing ever, ever - but those views are not the same as criticism of independence.

[One Day Soon]

Yesterday’s poll was a huge success for unionists. [emoji23][emoji23]


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Who is claiming that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Identity politics: https://www.theweek.co.uk/104473/what-is-identity-politics

"Identity politics generally refers to a subset of politics in which groups of people with particular shared racial, religious, ethnic, social or cultural identity seek to promote their own specific interests or concerns.Rather than organising solely around belief systems, manifestos or party affiliation, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-politics/) says, identity politics “typically aim[s] to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalised within its larger context”."

We can all quote articles.


If you accept the term, identity politics could be said to impact all aspects of society and has effectively dictated the course of politics for the last few years.
As a result The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/identity-politics-how-lgbt-race-religion-social-background-football-team-a8419036.html) says that describing movements as identity politics is effectively a “trap” as it is “easy to declare all politics identity politics, because everything relates to our identity”. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Firstly that isn't true - you'd better inform Neil Oliver that he didn't write the piece he just wrote.

Secondly when the points are made on the case for the Union they are generally dismissed by people who have already made up their minds and don't want to engage on points of substance around the financial and economic benefits of the union, let alone how they would seek to replace those.

Thirdly you should not conflate the performance of Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government with the case for or against independence. I may think that her and Salmond coasted for 13 years deliberately doing as little as possible so as not to scare the horses in trying to creep up on independence, you may think she is the very bestest thing ever, ever - but those views are not the same as criticism of independence.

Neil Oliver reads Hibs.net forums? Who knew?! :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

There is a negative case (as well as a positive one) for independence, as there is with any change. What I’m not sure of is if there still exists a positive case for the union as it is today. It’s certainly not being made, as you acknowledged, but can it be made?

My problem is that change is needed in the union (Westminster) whether we leave or not, but I can’t see any meaningful change ever happening regardless. It’s not just Scotland that is unhappy, what will change for the large the parts of the country outside the South East of England who are also unhappy?


Fair points. I think there is a case for the Union even as it stands now. I think there would be a much, much stronger case for the Union if it were remade to be fit for purpose in the context it now finds itself 300 years after it was set up.

[One Day Soon]

I love how these polls are interpreted.

Yes at 58% - it's an outlier. An anomaly.
Yes drops 2% - Believe the numbers. The union is back.

I'm not sure anyone on here is saying those things. It may have been JMS who pointed out that the 58% may be a small outlier by a couple of percent but that's about it.

[One Day Soon]

Support for the union is and you know it. If a slight dip in a single poll is all you have as comfort so be it.


You literally claimed that support for the Union is ever shrinking. It is not and the most recent poll shows that because instead of shrinking support for the Union ad a small uptick. I take issue with what you said because I think:

a) It's inaccurate

b) My view is that there are two large and broadly fixed camps with a smaller group in between that floats between the two poles (the recent poll actually bears this out quite clearly when you look at the analysis of those who are hard, medium and soft committed to either the Union or independence)

c) I think there is a sustained attempt under way from the nationalist wing of politics to attempt to narrate away support for the union as though it does not exist or is in terminal decline in order to try to create a sense of inevitability about independence. That may make me over sensitive about picking up on some details but if I can acknowledge and accept that support for independence has been well in the lead for some time now I don't see why others can't be accurate about where support for the Union sits.

[One Day Soon]

We can all quote articles.

:greengrin

I'm really not sure why you wouldn't recognise or even like the quotation I posted. Isn't the part that says: "to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalised within its larger context" exactly what you believe?

[One Day Soon]

Neil Oliver reads Hibs.net forums? Who knew?! :greengrin

I thought reference to the Neil Oliver piece had been made on here. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Could be confusing my twitter with my .Net.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's all about the trends:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Scottish_independence_polling_with_local_regressio n_fit.png



That graph is pretty.

Illustrative of a fairly sudden drop in the vote for the status quo. Down, down.

[JeMeSouviens]

Neil Oliver reads Hibs.net forums? Who knew?! :greengrin

If he does ... do something about that Barnet! and ffs, lose the cravat. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

That graph is pretty.

Illustrative of a fairly sudden drop in the vote for the status quo. Down, down.

My theory is that there were a fair chunk of No/Remainers that were reluctant to make the jump until they saw that Brexit was both irreversible and no-compromise-hard-as-stone. Both these things are now clear.

[One Day Soon]

That graph is pretty.

Illustrative of a fairly sudden drop in the vote for the status quo. Down, down.


It is a sudden drop, aligned almost perfectly with both Johnson post-election and Covid pandemic.

Puts Indy ahead for about the last 10 months or so out of the 72 months since the last referendum. I'd hurry up with that referendum if I were you...

[Jack]

You literally claimed that support for the Union is ever shrinking. It is not and the most recent poll shows that because instead of shrinking support for the Union ad a small uptick. I take issue with what you said because I think:

a) It's inaccurate

b) My view is that there are two large and broadly fixed camps with a smaller group in between that floats between the two poles (the recent poll actually bears this out quite clearly when you look at the analysis of those who are hard, medium and soft committed to either the Union or independence)

c) I think there is a sustained attempt under way from the nationalist wing of politics to attempt to narrate away support for the union as though it does not exist or is in terminal decline in order to try to create a sense of inevitability about independence. That may make me over sensitive about picking up on some details but if I can acknowledge and accept that support for independence has been well in the lead for some time now I don't see why others can't be accurate about where support for the Union sits.

The graph on the previous page shows support for the union is lower than ever been since the referendum, maybe even lower than its ever been in modern history and its a fairly steep slope down.

If roles were reversed you'd be cock-a-hoop.