Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

Some fair points in there, but do you see Gordon Brown convincing soft “yes” voters under the age of 35 to vote the other way?

Going forward, all I can see him being successful at is preaching to the converted - over 60, rock solid “no” voters.

Especially if he is still playing the old greatest hits of Devi Max and federal UK. It’s complete fantasy.
Why can’t he start standing up for the union as it is now? If it’s so good for Scotland then he should be able to defend it as is?


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[weecounty hibby]

Especially if he is still playing the old greatest hits of Devi Max and federal UK. It’s complete fantasy.
Why can’t he start standing up for the union as it is now? If it’s so good for Scotland then he should be able to defend it as is?

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Because then it is a straight shoot out between the failed status quo or independence. That is not what the unionists want, they want to muddy the waters again with Devi max, federalism etc. Why not have a question in there as well about returning back to full Westminster control. Get a fourth question into it? It's all about confusion now. They see pretty much any argument for the union being diminished all the time. They know the argument is being lost so again throw something into the mix they can't/wont deliver, hope it stays enough soft yessers and keep their fingers crossed

[Ozyhibby]

https://reaction.life/boris-johnson-not-devolution-has-been-a-disaster-for-britain-and-the-union/


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://reaction.life/boris-johnson-not-devolution-has-been-a-disaster-for-britain-and-the-union/


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🤣🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[Glory Lurker]

The independence debate will be decide by the soft No and Yes 20%. Those with strong views on either side have to be very careful how they sell the message to voters. The Vow v Once in a generation debate won’t count for much and will put people off. Positive messaging on our future will win the day.

Definitely.

[Radium]

I am not a unionist and certainly not a nationalist. But Gordon Brown is serious and intellectual and brings ‘far more to the table’ than his petty detractors on here.

Yeah, but, well mibbies it is less about tinterlect and more bout wot he says and wot doesn’t hapn

DevoMax and other forms of autonomy for Scotland have been supported by the majority for over a decade and was blocked by unionist parties leading to the current binary choice. Rolling back into that debate is understandable as Labour need to redress their losses and as many (including Boris) understand, Scotland is generally left of the rest of the UK(so should be ripe recruiting ground).

It was a political bus he needed to be on a decade ago as many in Scotland now realise Labour is not going to deliver at Westminster. They have simply allowed themselves to be unelectable in England.


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[Future17]

It’s a mistake to under estimate Gordon Brown, he’s no fool and will still carry some weight with voters. It’s a bigger mistake to try and demonise him. Independence will be decided on the issues not personalities. There won’t be a Better Together type organisation this time. Richard Leonard spoke out against in 2014, he saw how damaging it would be to the Labour Party. The independence debate will be decide by the soft No and Yes 20%. Those with strong views on either side have to be very careful how they sell the message to voters. The Vow v Once in a generation debate won’t count for much and will put people off. Positive messaging on our future will win the day.

Agree with most of that. There was mistakes on both sides last time and learning from those mistakes could be key next time...whenever that is.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s a mistake to under estimate Gordon Brown, he’s no fool and will still carry some weight with voters. It’s a bigger mistake to try and demonise him. Independence will be decided on the issues not personalities. There won’t be a Better Together type organisation this time. Richard Leonard spoke out against in 2014, he saw how damaging it would be to the Labour Party. The independence debate will be decide by the soft No and Yes 20%. Those with strong views on either side have to be very careful how they sell the message to voters. The Vow v Once in a generation debate won’t count for much and will put people off. Positive messaging on our future will win the day.

The only time Devo Max gets a mention is as an alternative to Independence, it's never discussed as an alternative to the union because it's the unionists last throw of the dice. If Brown starts preaching about the El Dorado of Devo Max, then it will be counter productive and have the Independence movement slapping their thighs.

[CloudSquall]

Anyone that thinks Gordon Brown will have any influence whatsoever on anyone under 60 are most definitely the types that think "tartan tories" and "the SNP delivered Thatcher " are still relevant digs.

[The Harp Awakes]

Anyone that thinks Gordon Brown will have any influence whatsoever on anyone under 60 are most definitely the types that think "tartan tories" and "the SNP delivered Thatcher " are still relevant digs.

I think Brown may have some influence but I agree it will mainly resonate with the elderly, who are most anti-independence anyway.

The demographic changes in Scotland since 2014 favour independence, as does current politics; an out of touch elitist Tory Westminster government, an unelectable Labour Party in Scotland and Brexit looming. The perfect storm really.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think Brown may have some influence but I agree it will mainly resonate with the elderly, who are most anti-independence anyway.

The demographic changes in Scotland since 2014 favour independence, as does current politics; an out of touch elitist Tory Westminster government, an unelectable Labour Party in Scotland and Brexit looming. The perfect storm really.

The dirt that is going to come out over the Corona crisis will also have an effect. Watching Sturgeon's body language each time she's asked about UK wide cooperation, I can't help but feel she's biting her tongue to avoid causing conflict at this time.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-ministers-must-honour-once-in-a-generation-promise?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true


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[DaveF]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-ministers-must-honour-once-in-a-generation-promise?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true


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Tories demanding people keep promises?

The comedy keeps coming.

[weecounty hibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-ministers-must-honour-once-in-a-generation-promise?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true


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I demand that Johnson honours his promise about the ditch! Desperate stuff again from the unionists, Johnson also talked about the last GE as a once in a generation election dies that mean no more GEs? No where was a generation written into any agreement. It was rhetoric pure and simple

[Kato]

Tories demanding people keep promises?

The comedy keeps coming.

So easily argued against but the brass neck of these toads get shinier by the day.

[Peevemor]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-ministers-must-honour-once-in-a-generation-promise?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCan Alister Jack or anybody else on the planet show us where this was promised?

[degenerated]

Can Alister Jack or anybody else on the planet show us where this was promised?It gets right on my thruppenys when the likes of Jack, mundel, Ross, davidson et al get a free reign on bbc to claim it was in the Edinburgh agreement without ever getting challenged on that lie.

[Skol]

Can Alister Jack or anybody else on the planet show us where this was promised?

I know you will say this wasnt a promise, but here you go

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/0/

[DaveF]

I know you will say this wasnt a promise....

Yep, because it isn't.

[Skol]

Yep, because it isn't.

So it was a lie then ?

[Ozyhibby]

So it was a lie then ?

It was an opinion.


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[CropleyWasGod]

It was an opinion.


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As it was when Salmond was interviewed by Andrew Marr. He used that word.:agree:

[Skol]

It was a tug at the heart to get people to vote

[The Modfather]

It was a tug at the heart to get people to vote

Whether it was a lie, a promise or a tug at the heart, what relevance is it to what the people of Scotland appear to want, and will democratically vote for it seems, in 2021?

[Ozyhibby]

It was a tug at the heart to get people to vote

It may well have been but it still amounts to no more than an opinion.


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[DaveF]

So it was a lie then ?

No, though you obviously think it is.

It wasn't a promise so Jack is clearly lying if he refers to it as one.

[Kato]

No, though you obviously think it is.

It wasn't a promise so Jack is clearly lying if he refers to it as one.

Who cares if it was a promise or not - when do they keep the word on anything?

[Moulin Yarns]

I know you will say this wasnt a promise, but here you go

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/0/

That's clear that it was a once in a generation 'opportunity' nowhere does it say referendum. 😁

[Future17]

Whether it was a lie, a promise or a tug at the heart, what relevance is it to what the people of Scotland appear to want, and will democratically vote for it seems, in 2021?

This sums it up for me. The idea that politicians (of any party) could bind the people to such an agreement just shows the contempt in which they hold us.

[Peevemor]

I know you will say this wasnt a promise, but here you go

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/0/That's not a promise, unlike "the vow".

And England deciding to leave the EU isn't a material change?

[Berwickhibby]

I know you will say this wasnt a promise, but here you go

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/0/

To be fair ...they forget to add that the generation they meant was the lifespan of a Dofo's hamster ��������

[Bristolhibby]

Whether it was a lie, a promise or a tug at the heart, what relevance is it to what the people of Scotland appear to want, and will democratically vote for it seems, in 2021?

I know, it’s like drinking Peroni in the pub then fancying a Guinness but the guy with the kitty won’t buy you a Guinness because you asked for Peroni on the first round. WTF?

J

[Bristolhibby]

That's not a promise, unlike "the vow".

And England deciding to leave the EU isn't a material change?

Correct, any time “once in a generation” is brought up. Lay the BREXIT material change card on top and just get on with gaining Independence.

[degenerated]

To be fair ...they forget to add that the generation they meant was the lifespan of a Dofo's hamster ��������We know what a political generation is in terms of the UK and constitutional referenda and we know that because there is precedent. The good Friday Agreement notes that as being 7 years.
Why, then, would it be different for other parts of this unitary state?

[Moulin Yarns]

We know what a political generation is in terms of the UK and constitutional referenda and we know that because there is precedent. The good Friday Agreement notes that as being 7 years.
Why, then, would it be different for other parts of this unitary state?

2014 + 7 = 2021 🤔

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/indyref-claim-prince-andrew-told-newspaper-editor-queen-would-intervene-vote-3043748


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[Since90+2]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/indyref-claim-prince-andrew-told-newspaper-editor-queen-would-intervene-vote-3043748


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I don't think that's a massive issue or even surprising. The Queen is the head of state for the UK and would naturally want to see Scotland remain part of that. I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed an opinion (no more than that though) like everyone else in the country.

It would make zero difference to my opinion on the subject and I suspect anyone who hinges their opinion on what the Queen says is strongly Unionist anyway.

[Jack]

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

(The United Nation General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV):* Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, 24 October 1970)

It could be argued that the Queens intervention went against the "without external interference" given she is the Head of State of the entity from which Scotland seeks independence. Indeed with all the UKs political parties being based in England, except the SNP obviously, maybe there's a case that they should be barred from campaigning in any independence vote never mind deigning to grant permission ;-)

[Since90+2]

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.”

(The United Nation General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV):* Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, 24 October 1970)

It could be argued that the Queens intervention went against the "without external interference" given she is the Head of State of the entity from which Scotland seeks independence. Indeed with all the UKs political parties being based in England, except the SNP obviously, maybe there's a case that they should be barred from campaigning in any independence vote never mind deigning to grant permission it ;-)

I understand the reasoning for it but it's just abit odd IMO. Although the Head of State the Queen has little to no political power in reality.

If the Prime Minister and First Minister, who have far more power to shape society as we are currently seeing, can be actively partisan I don't see why she can't be allowed to say her opinion on Scottish independence.

If the Queen wishes to state her preference for Scotland remaining part of the UK then I honestly don't think it's that big a deal.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think that's a massive issue or even surprising. The Queen is the head of state for the UK and would naturally want to see Scotland remain part of that. I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed an opinion (no more than that though) like everyone else in the country.

It would make zero difference to my opinion on the subject and I suspect anyone who hinges their opinion on what the Queen says is strongly Unionist anyway.

I'm not sure about your last point. Unionists would have already made up their mind.

There were many who struggled with making up their minds, and such a statement might have been enough to put doubt in their minds. Given the circumstances (there had just been an opinion poll suggesting Yes were in front), it's no wonder that the No campaign needed to do something. Sowing the seeds of doubt is a reasonable tactic, and they did that with the Queen and Gordon Brown.

To what extent it affected the final vote we can't know, but it won't have helped the Yes vote.

[The Modfather]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/indyref-claim-prince-andrew-told-newspaper-editor-queen-would-intervene-vote-3043748


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“The roguish Duke Of York”! I get writers have to remain diplomatic for their chances of future articles, but c’mon. Hope we don’t get lumbered with Price Andrew in any independence settlement.

[Glory Lurker]

I don't think that's a massive issue or even surprising. The Queen is the head of state for the UK and would naturally want to see Scotland remain part of that. I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed an opinion (no more than that though) like everyone else in the country.

It would make zero difference to my opinion on the subject and I suspect anyone who hinges their opinion on what the Queen says is strongly Unionist anyway.

She is of course entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to express it. If she wants to meddle in politics she should put herself up for election.

[Moulin Yarns]

She is of course entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to express it. If she wants to meddle in politics she should put herself up for election.

I can see that splitting the unionist vote. Yoons will be apoplectic 😉😂

[Since90+2]

She is of course entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to express it. If she wants to meddle in politics she should put herself up for election.

Is her saying she wants Scotland to remain part of the Union meddling in politics or is it just her expressing her opinion?

I think it's mountain out of molehill stuff. The next independence debate will be decided on things like what sort of economic model we want to have, our relationship with Europe and how we see our society for the following generations. Whether the Queen thinks it's a good idea or not is pretty unimportant all things considered.

[lord bunberry]

Is her saying she wants Scotland to remain part of the Union meddling in politics or is it just her expressing her opinion?

I think it's mountain out of molehill stuff. The next independence debate will be decided on things like what sort of economic model we want to have, our relationship with Europe and how we see our society for the following generations. Whether the Queen thinks it's a good idea or not is pretty unimportant all things considered.
If she had expressed an opinion in the brexit campaign it would’ve been big news. I tend to agree that her opinion wouldn’t have much of an effect in the way people vote in any independence referendum.

[Future17]

Non-story for me. I'd be surprised in anyone thinks she wasn't attempting to exert influence, but the truth is anyone who has ever met Prince Andrew could claim he said almost anything and not be pulled up on it. He's a joke figure.

[Glory Lurker]

Is her saying she wants Scotland to remain part of the Union meddling in politics or is it just her expressing her opinion?

I think it's mountain out of molehill stuff. The next independence debate will be decided on things like what sort of economic model we want to have, our relationship with Europe and how we see our society for the following generations. Whether the Queen thinks it's a good idea or not is pretty unimportant all things considered.

It offends me as a republican far more than it irks me as a yesser. Whatever the political issue, she has no role commenting on it. I wouldn’t want her publicly supporting something I agree with either.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/more-devolution-in-england-could-save-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Kato]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/more-devolution-in-england-could-save-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"His enemies seek to portray him as a blundering, aloof Old Etonian who embodies a dysfunctional UK government. He mustn’t give them the ammunition to do so.*"

Sort of impossible to avoid the truth on that one. He's not going to suddenly transform into a competent, engaged, inclusive everyman who embodies a well oiled UK Government machine.

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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/more-devolution-in-england-could-save-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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Ah yes, the old federal system. Funny that it has been rejected by all the regions of Englandshire.

[Ozyhibby]

Ah yes, the old federal system. Funny that it has been rejected by all the regions of Englandshire.

It’s weird how they keep suggesting it when they know it can never be delivered? Even if they wanted to do it in order to save the union, there are so many moving parts that there is no chance of it happening.


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[Moulin Yarns]

It’s weird how they keep suggesting it when they know it can never be delivered? Even if they wanted to do it in order to save the union, there are so many moving parts that there is no chance of it happening.


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If only they had offered it instead of EVEL then they may have had a chance 😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-the-future-of-the-union-the-uk-s-political-fabric-is-fraying-1.4416143?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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[JeMeSouviens]

It’s weird how they keep suggesting it when they know it can never be delivered? Even if they wanted to do it in order to save the union, there are so many moving parts that there is no chance of it happening.


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It’s just a desperate delay. How long does a “convention” take?

[Bristolhibby]

She is of course entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to express it. If she wants to meddle in politics she should put herself up for election.

Also she would still be Queen of Scotland come Independence.

Then we can have the Republican vote.

One battle at a time.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18889524.malcolm-rifkind-devolved-settlement-becoming-out-of-date-time-consider-federal-union/

Malcolm Rifkind the latest to jump on the federal bandwagon. This is starting to look like a proper campaign. Not to actually deliver federalism though, just to distract people with more false promises.


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[ACLeith]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18889524.malcolm-rifkind-devolved-settlement-becoming-out-of-date-time-consider-federal-union/

Malcolm Rifkind the latest to jump on the federal bandwagon. This is starting to look like a proper campaign. Not to actually deliver federalism though, just to distract people with more false promises.


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Details please Malcolm!

Is it a real federal system i.e. as planned by the OLD Liberal party (Jo Grimmond etc) when they were a party with principles or one in which Scotland is accorded equal status with each English region? Only the former could be a serious option but Westminster would never agree to, for example, the English federal reps not being able to outvote all the others or the English Parliament being physically separate from the UK Federal parliament - maybe even located in what they term "the North of England".

[JeMeSouviens]

Anyway, none of this federal schmederal pish addresses the Brexit-shaped elephant lurking in the corner. Who wants to sign up for 10+ years of going nowhere talking about wacky new constitutions when we can just join all the other normal European states pooling sovereignty where it makes sense in the EU?

[Kato]

where it makes sense

Interesting angle to introduce.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://petewishart.wordpress.com/2020/11/23/what-happens-if-boris-says-no/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Good blog from Pete Wishart on why Johnson will agree to a second referendum.


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[heretoday]

The Queen hoped Scots would think very carefully about the future.
Hardly a tub-thumping rant on behalf of the Union!

[Glory Lurker]

The Queen hoped Scots would think very carefully about the future.
Hardly a tub-thumping rant on behalf of the Union!

She's not supposed to stray in to politics at all, so it was no mitigation that it was not a tub-thumping rant. It was a breach of her position.

[Keith_M]

It's quite obvious the monarch would have an interest in Independence. It would be damn awkward for One to have to apply for a Visa to visit One's holiday home at Balmoral.


Then of course there's the whole Grouse Shooting dilemma

[ronaldo7]

It's quite obvious the monarch would have an interest in Independence. It would be damn awkward for One to have to apply for a Visa to visit One's holiday home at Balmoral.


Then of course there's the whole Grouse Shooting dilemma

It wouldn't be hers to visit. We'll be taking it back for the nation. 😃

Compulsory purchase.

[Moulin Yarns]

It wouldn't be hers to visit. We'll be taking it back for the nation. 😃

Compulsory purchase.

First minister's holiday home, like Checkers :wink:

[SHODAN]

If they want to convince people that they'll actually deliver federalism this time then they should put together a comprehensive document ala the White Paper, and a bill should be passed, by the UK Parliament, BEFORE the referendum, that enshrines in law everything within said document, to ensure that if we vote for it we'll actually get it.

Of course, they won't do that because this is another smokescreen that they will never ever deliver.

[Hibrandenburg]

If they want to convince people that they'll actually deliver federalism this time then they should put together a comprehensive document ala the White Paper, and a bill should be passed, by the UK Parliament, BEFORE the referendum, that enshrines in law everything within said document, to ensure that if we vote for it we'll actually get it.

Of course, they won't do that because this is another smokescreen that they will never ever deliver.

Yep, like I said earlier in the thread, Devo-Max is only ever talked about as an option to save the union and never gets a mention unless the union is under threat.

[GlesgaeHibby]

https://petewishart.wordpress.com/2020/11/23/what-happens-if-boris-says-no/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Good blog from Pete Wishart on why Johnson will agree to a second referendum.


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I wish I shared his optimism that the Tories will just say yes to a referendum if we keep asking them.

I think there's no chance they'll grant a referendum they're likely to lose. They won't care about the optics of it either given the way they've behaved this year in the face of scathing criticism - Cummings and breaking international law being two prime examples.

[Bristolhibby]

The Queen hoped Scots would think very carefully about the future.
Hardly a tub-thumping rant on behalf of the Union!

It’s not keeping quiet either.

People will have been swayed. Soft yes, switch to no, soft nos confirm their decision.

She should have kept her mouth shut. An outrage. The sooner this lot are gone the better.

You can also keep your , MBEs, Knights, Dukes, Earls, Order of the Thistle, Duke of Rothesay, absentee heridatary landlords, etc.

One battle at a time as I say.

J

[Bristolhibby]

It wouldn't be hers to visit. We'll be taking it back for the nation. 😃

Compulsory purchase.

Exactly, didn’t see India getting too precious removing the title of “Emperor of India” from the King on gaining independence.

Also while I’m on a rant. A totally independent judicary that is not connected to Monarchy.

Always hate that it’s the Crown vs someone or other in court.

Like in the States it should be “The People vs ......”

J

[Bristolhibby]

I wish I shared his optimism that the Tories will just say yes to a referendum if we keep asking them.

I think there's no chance they'll grant a referendum they're likely to lose. They won't care about the optics of it either given the way they've behaved this year in the face of scathing criticism - Cummings and breaking international law being two prime examples.

When does the citizenary of Scotland reach tipping point? 60-40? 70-30?

They can’t hold out forever.

J

[SHODAN]

I wish I shared his optimism that the Tories will just say yes to a referendum if we keep asking them.

I think there's no chance they'll grant a referendum they're likely to lose. They won't care about the optics of it either given the way they've behaved this year in the face of scathing criticism - Cummings and breaking international law being two prime examples.

:agree:

The Tories will grant another referendum when support for Yes is 20-30% - i.e. never.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree:

The Tories will grant another referendum when support for Yes is 20-30% - i.e. never.

Standing against the democratic will of the people will not hold for long. If there is a majority for independence in Scotland, and it now appears as if that is the case, then it will happen. Opposing democracy will only strengthen support for yes and the Tories are not that stupid, they know that is the case.


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[Bristolhibby]

Standing against the democratic will of the people will not hold for long. If there is a majority for independence in Scotland, and it now appears as if that is the case, then it will happen. Opposing democracy will only strengthen support for yes and the Tories are not that stupid, they know that is the case.


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I guess none of them want “the break up of the U.K.” on their resume.

J

[SHODAN]

Standing against the democratic will of the people will not hold for long. If there is a majority for independence in Scotland, and it now appears as if that is the case, then it will happen. Opposing democracy will only strengthen support for yes and the Tories are not that stupid, they know that is the case.


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If a referendum is never held then Yes will never win, irrespective of support.

What is going to happen if they keep saying no? The populace as a whole won't do anything. There's a core of ~40% who are quite happy with the way things are and will never change their mind.

[Ozyhibby]

If a referendum is never held then Yes will never win, irrespective of support.

What is going to happen if they keep saying no? The populace as a whole won't do anything. There's a core of ~40% who are quite happy with the way things are and will never change their mind.

The might be happy enough just now living in a democracy but if that changes then their views may change as well.


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[GlesgaeHibby]

If a referendum is never held then Yes will never win, irrespective of support.

What is going to happen if they keep saying no? The populace as a whole won't do anything. There's a core of ~40% who are quite happy with the way things are and will never change their mind.

Exactly. And the tories know full well they can keep saying no, because the SNP (for whatever reason) won't discuss or formulate a plan B. The leadership should be preparing for Boris rejecting any s30 request so that an alternative plan can be put in motion as soon as they say no.

At the minute they're very good at soundbites without delivering. How many times did Ian Blackford stand up in the commons to declare 'Scotland will not be dragged out the EU against our will' before exactly that happened.

[Ozyhibby]

Exactly. And the tories know full well they can keep saying no, because the SNP (for whatever reason) won't discuss or formulate a plan B. The leadership should be preparing for Boris rejecting any s30 request so that an alternative plan can be put in motion as soon as they say no.

At the minute they're very good at soundbites without delivering. How many times did Ian Blackford stand up in the commons to declare 'Scotland will not be dragged out the EU against our will' before exactly that happened.

Just because they are not planning on running an unsanctioned referendum or a universal Declaration of Independence which is what the plan b crowd want and which would kill support for yes, does not mean they do not have a plan for if Johnson says no.


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[SHODAN]

Just because they are not planning on running an unsanctioned referendum or a universal Declaration of Independence which is what the plan b crowd want and which would kill support for yes, does not mean they do not have a plan for if Johnson says no.


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If we hold an unsanctioned referendum then they'll send in law enforcement on polling day and arrest half the SNP. The international community were quite happy for Spain to do it so they shouldn't have any problems up here too.

[Ozyhibby]

If we hold an unsanctioned referendum then they'll send in law enforcement on polling day and arrest half the SNP. The international community were quite happy for Spain to do it so they shouldn't have any problems up here too.

Exactly. Plan A is working so well that I see no reason to change it. We can’t become independent unless we have the support of a majority of people who live here. Building up that support is going very well just now and unionists in London are doing their very best to help. Turning down a referendum would fit right into that pattern and will see support rise above 60%. The longer it is denied, the more hardened support for independence will become.


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[Mr Grieves]

Exactly. Plan A is working so well that I see no reason to change it. We can’t become independent unless we have the support of a majority of people who live here. Building up that support is going very well just now and unionists in London are doing their very best to help. Turning down a referendum would fit right into that pattern and will see support rise above 60%. The longer it is denied, the more hardened support for independence will become.


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Spot on

[CloudSquall]

While I can see the sense in continuing with a strategy that sees support for independence at an all time high the devil's advocate in me can't help but think that a number of SNP careerists (ie Alyn Smith) most likely love the idea of taking in 80k a year for repeating the "let's have that conversation....let's build that case..." klaxon.

Dare I say a few of them have gone a bit "native" at Westminster.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm sure that there is a plan b no matter how much some protest and say otherwise. I think that the Indy movement has it right at the moment. The SNP is obviously the political arm of the movement and are the most obvious and prominent face. But there are so many other sides to it at the moment from AUOB to some of the Indy focused on line channels. The rise in people who support independence is huge, and this is before campaigning has started. The amount of people I know who have moved no to yes is a very pleasant surprise, some of them very surprising. I am as desperate as anyone for independence to happen but I still believe that it will happen and pretty soon. England didn't want to lose any of the cash cows of the old empire but they did. They don't want to lose Scotland but they will.

[JeMeSouviens]

The important thing is international recognition. We won’t get that without either an agreed ref with rUK or having been seen to have done everything possible to get that agreement.

[Ozyhibby]

The important thing is international recognition. We won’t get that without either an agreed ref with rUK or having been seen to have done everything possible to get that agreement.

Yes, it is where Catalonia fell short. You need to build support internationally for the right to decide so that when you become independent there is support and assistance available for the process.


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[weecounty hibby]

Yes, it is where Catalonia fell short. You need to build support internationally for the right to decide so that when you become independent there is support and assistance available for the process.


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And again I think this is something that has been done very well over the last few years. Scotland is looked upon very favourably in Europe and further afield. Ground breaking social policies like the one passed yesterday on sanitary products don't go unnoticed.

[Ozyhibby]

And again I think this is something that has been done very well over the last few years. Scotland is looked upon very favourably in Europe and further afield. Ground breaking social policies like the one passed yesterday on sanitary products don't go unnoticed.

According the George Foulkes, they are doing it deliberately.


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[Bostonhibby]

According the George Foulkes, they are doing it deliberately.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI remember him deliberately telling Hearts fans what a decent chap that Romanov character was when he gave him a ringing endorsement to the 400,000 simple fans.



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[weecounty hibby]

According the George Foulkes, they are doing it deliberately.


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Indeed, and it wasn't an SNP led policy it was Labour. If only those in the Labour party realised what a great, inclusive, forward thinking, international country we could be and got on board with independence I think they could easily drive the left of centre country that they keep talking about, cos it ain't ever happening with us part of this unequal union

[StevieC]

Indeed, and it wasn't an SNP led policy it was Labour. If only those in the Labour party realised what a great, inclusive, forward thinking, international country we could be and got on board with independence I think they could easily drive the left of centre country that they keep talking about, cos it ain't ever happening with us part of this unequal union

I wonder how many voters Labour has lost to the SNP because of their Unionist stance?

There must be some Labour MSPs, and branch leaders, that are warming to the idea of Independence? I wonder if some are holding off for a campaign to start before coming out in support?

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder how many voters Labour has lost to the SNP because of their Unionist stance?

There must be some Labour MSPs, and branch leaders, that are warming to the idea of Independence? I wonder if some are holding off for a campaign to start before coming out in support?

Scottish Labour never really cared about its voters so long as they turned up. People like Foulkes and Martin were the only people in their constituencies who got any wealthier throughout their long terms in parliament. Lobby fodder for the U.K. party.


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[Antifa Hibs]

I wonder how many voters Labour has lost to the SNP because of their Unionist stance?

There must be some Labour MSPs, and branch leaders, that are warming to the idea of Independence? I wonder if some are holding off for a campaign to start before coming out in support?

I'd vote labour again in May if they:

1) Apologised for siding with Better Together (no problem with a Labour for UK campaign or whatever but siding with businesses, media and tories etc is not on).
2) Just come out and say they're open minded on Scotland's future. We want Scotland to be part of the UK but its your choice. Let's have the discussion about a referendum around 2040.

We sure as **** could do with an alternative to the SNP up here.

[weecounty hibby]

I'd vote labour again in May if they:

1) Apologised for siding with Better Together (no problem with a Labour for UK campaign or whatever but siding with businesses, media and tories etc is not on).
2) Just come out and say they're open minded on Scotland's future. We want Scotland to be part of the UK but its your choice. Let's have the discussion about a referendum around 2040.

We sure as **** could do with an alternative to the SNP up here.
There are loads of alternatives to the SNP up here. Labour, Conservative, Libdems, Green, etc. Take your pick and vote for whoever you think is better to govern than the SNP. To say there is no alternative is a ridiculous statement

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd vote labour again in May if they:

1) Apologised for siding with Better Together (no problem with a Labour for UK campaign or whatever but siding with businesses, media and tories etc is not on).
2) Just come out and say they're open minded on Scotland's future. We want Scotland to be part of the UK but its your choice. Let's have the discussion about a referendum around 2040.

We sure as **** could do with an alternative to the SNP up here.

On the second point, I would like the independence campaign free from politicking, but it aint going to happen.

I would like to see each politician, of whichever hue, to be allowd to express their own, rather than the party machine's, opinion, but it aint going to happen.

I would like to see a vision from both the Yes side and the No side which promotes the positivity of a Scotland both as an independent nation and as part of truly United Kindom, but it aint going to happen.

At the last referendum and at the AUOB marches and rallies there were visible signs of supporters of independence from all corners of society, including Labour for Indy and even a small number of Tories for Indy (you had to look hard to see them though :wink:) and there are even SNP supporters who do not want full independence, and it would be good if the parties allowed a free voice, but we all know it aint going to happen.

[Antifa Hibs]

There are loads of alternatives to the SNP up here. Labour, Conservative, Libdems, Green, etc. Take your pick and vote for whoever you think is better to govern than the SNP. To say there is no alternative is a ridiculous statement

*credible alternative


Tories - more chance of seeing me at Ibrox singing the Sash than voting for them
Lib Dems - if Hertz were a political party. Wannabe's (wannabe tories in the case of Alex Cole Hamilton), boring, dull, cardigan wearing types, all a bit pointless really. The *****bags choice.
Labour - was a member for years n years. Didn't like how they conducted themselves in the run-up to 2014. Too centrist for me although alot of good bodies in the parties but equally alot of wee Blairite ***** too. Loved wee Jez, not convinced at all with Starmer and don't know an awfylot about Leonard.
Greens - Good progressive policies and i'll give them a consideration

[Smartie]

On the second point, I would like the independence campaign free from politicking, but it aint going to happen.

I would like to see each politician, of whichever hue, to be allowd to express their own, rather than the party machine's, opinion, but it aint going to happen.

I would like to see a vision from both the Yes side and the No side which promotes the positivity of a Scotland both as an independent nation and as part of truly United Kindom, but it aint going to happen.

At the last referendum and at the AUOB marches and rallies there were visible signs of supporters of independence from all corners of society, including Labour for Indy and even a small number of Tories for Indy (you had to look hard to see them though :wink:) and there are even SNP supporters who do not want full independence, and it would be good if the parties allowed a free voice, but we all know it aint going to happen.

My favourite politicians have always been the renegade ones who don't always obey party orders.

Obviously there's a time to fall into line but there's also a time to stand up for what you believe in and I don't believe anybody's beliefs should come in a neatly packaged box that aligns perfectly with a party.

I would like for it to be considered a strength rather than a weakness and something deserving of praise rather than criticism when a politician openly and publicly questions what tf their own party is up to at times.

[SHODAN]

I wonder how many voters Labour has lost to the SNP because of their Unionist stance?

There must be some Labour MSPs, and branch leaders, that are warming to the idea of Independence? I wonder if some are holding off for a campaign to start before coming out in support?

I'm pretty sure Monica Lennon is one of them.

[One Day Soon]

Indeed, and it wasn't an SNP led policy it was Labour. If only those in the Labour party realised what a great, inclusive, forward thinking, international country we could be and got on board with independence I think they could easily drive the left of centre country that they keep talking about, cos it ain't ever happening with us part of this unequal union

'If only Labour members would change the political beliefs they have and adopt ours on independence everything would be great'.

[HibernianJK]

I'm pretty sure Monica Lennon is one of them.

Kezia Dugdale is also on that path

[One Day Soon]

There are loads of alternatives to the SNP up here. Labour, Conservative, Libdems, Green, etc. Take your pick and vote for whoever you think is better to govern than the SNP. To say there is no alternative is a ridiculous statement

There really aren't. All the opposition parties are weak in terms of leadership, politics, policies, strategy and purpose.

The SNP stands above the others politically because it is superb at message control. Pretty dismally unambitious at governing but in the context of such weak opposition that isn't really being exposed. Oh and building a massive client state isn't doing the Nats too much electoral harm either.

[Callum_62]

I'd vote labour again in May if they:


2) Just come out and say they're open minded on Scotland's future. We want Scotland to be part of the UK but its your choice. Let's have the discussion about a referendum around 2040.


Its your choice but let's wait another 20 years to have a chat about it?

[emoji848]



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[Moulin Yarns]

Its your choice but let's wait another 20 years to have a chat about it?

[emoji848]



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I think the 2040 referendum is maybe the let's join a United States of Britain one. Either that or the Independence for Unst campaign. :wink:

[weecounty hibby]

'If only Labour members would change the political beliefs they have and adopt ours on independence everything would be great'.

Yeah, once again your dislike of self determination for Scotland clouds your understanding. In the past you have called Labour a movement, not just a party. So why would the movement be happy to see a country like Scotland not be part of that movement. And that is what happens by being part of the union. We are tethered to a country that is slipping further and further to the right with no say on that. England always gets the government they vote for. Scotland always gets the government that England votes for.
I don't want Labour voters to change their political beliefs, I want them to embrace them and drive them as part of an independent Scotland. I have those same beliefs but want to be able to embed them in Scotland and that just won't happen as part of the UK. I gave an example of the free sanitary products driven by a Labour MSP as something that Scotland can do but we are hamstrung on so much more due to not having the full control of resources that we need to drive change

[JeMeSouviens]

'If only Labour members would change the political beliefs they have and adopt ours on independence everything would be great'.

A movement founded on a commitment to Home Rule for Scotland, when that meant something like the dominion status then enjoyed by Canada and Australia, ie. closer to today's indy than any federal scheme you could dream up.

I'm not saying Labour shouldn't be unionist if that's what its members want - but it shouldn't treat it as an article of faith, imo.

[StevieC]

Kezia Dugdale is also on that path

I’ve always felt that Kezia was for turning :wink:

[Keith_M]

*credible alternative


Tories - more chance of seeing me at Ibrox singing the Sash than voting for them
Lib Dems - if Hertz were a political party. Wannabe's (wannabe tories in the case of Alex Cole Hamilton), boring, dull, cardigan wearing types, all a bit pointless really. The *****bags choice.
Labour - was a member for years n years. Didn't like how they conducted themselves in the run-up to 2014. Too centrist for me although alot of good bodies in the parties but equally alot of wee Blairite ***** too. Loved wee Jez, not convinced at all with Starmer and don't know an awfylot about Leonard.
Greens - Good progressive policies and i'll give them a consideration



I would have imagined you voting for The Communist Party.

Do they still exist in Scotland?

[One Day Soon]

Yeah, once again your dislike of self determination for Scotland clouds your understanding. In the past you have called Labour a movement, not just a party. So why would the movement be happy to see a country like Scotland not be part of that movement. And that is what happens by being part of the union. We are tethered to a country that is slipping further and further to the right with no say on that. England always gets the government they vote for. Scotland always gets the government that England votes for.
I don't want Labour voters to change their political beliefs, I want them to embrace them and drive them as part of an independent Scotland. I have those same beliefs but want to be able to embed them in Scotland and that just won't happen as part of the UK. I gave an example of the free sanitary products driven by a Labour MSP as something that Scotland can do but we are hamstrung on so much more due to not having the full control of resources that we need to drive change


Yeah, once again your obsession with independence as the panacea for all ills regardless of the consequences leads you to dismiss and disregard the opinions and beliefs of others. The broader Labour movement is made up of all sorts of people with widely and wildly differing political perspectives. The Labour Party is not now and never has been in favour of independence. If people want independence there are two perfectly serviceable parties they can vote for, the SNP and their subsidiary the GreenSNP.

"So why would the movement be happy to see a country like Scotland not be part of that movement." - What does this claptrap even mean?

Its either incredibly patronising or incredibly insulting that you seem unable to understand that there are people who do not support independence because they a) believe there is power in a union b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend.

You can want Labour voters to change their political beliefs all you like, knock yourself out in fact. However pretending that the Labour Party should politically cross dress with the politics of flags in Scotland as part of a journey to some mythical egalitarian Scottish nirvana is just fundamentally dishonest.

[One Day Soon]

A movement founded on a commitment to Home Rule for Scotland, when that meant something like the dominion status then enjoyed by Canada and Australia, ie. closer to today's indy than any federal scheme you could dream up.

I'm not saying Labour shouldn't be unionist if that's what its members want - but it shouldn't treat it as an article of faith, imo.



With the greatest of respect JMS, you don't get a say on that. You do get a say on the articles of faith in your own party though.

Home rule is not the same as independence and never was. It is closer to devolution than it is to independence.

[Ozyhibby]

The Scottish Labour Party have become just a protest group. They say they want a progressive govt for Scotland but are against the only way to achieve it. They are happy living under Tory rule forever in order to preserve the union.


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[Moulin Yarns]

If people want independence there are two perfectly serviceable parties they can vote for, the SNP and their subsidiary the GreenSNP.


Its incredibly patronising or incredibly insulting

You only needed to post this bit so we know your views. Both patronising and incredibly insulting to all people who vote Scottish Green to even consider that they are in any way like the SNP.

Yes, both parties are in favour of an independent Scotland but you are ignoring the numerous concessions that the Scottish Green Party have got out of the SNP because the SNP need their support to get some things through parliament.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Scottish Labour Party have become just a protest group. They say they want a progressive govt for Scotland but are against the only way to achieve it. They are happy living under Tory rule forever in order to preserve the union.


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:agree:

I don't know about forever, but the long term stat is Tory govt 75% of the time and no sign of that changing.

[weecounty hibby]

Yeah, once again your obsession with independence as the panacea for all ills regardless of the consequences leads you to dismiss and disregard the opinions and beliefs of others. The broader Labour movement is made up of all sorts of people with widely and wildly differing political perspectives. The Labour Party is not now and never has been in favour of independence. If people want independence there are two perfectly serviceable parties they can vote for, the SNP and their subsidiary the GreenSNP.

"So why would the movement be happy to see a country like Scotland not be part of that movement." - What does this claptrap even mean?

Its either incredibly patronising or incredibly insulting that you seem unable to understand that there are people who do not support independence because they a) believe there is power in a union b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend.

You can want Labour voters to change their political beliefs all you like, knock yourself out in fact. However pretending that the Labour Party should politically cross dress with the politics of flags in Scotland as part of a journey to some mythical egalitarian Scottish nirvana is just fundamentally dishonest.

As mentioned in another couple of posts from others Labour is happy to see a Tory government as long as the union is intact. And to argue otherwise is to go against what has been said by leaders of your party on both sides of the border. Never work with the SNP against the Tories but happy to work with the Tories against the SNP. And as for the claptrap you know what it means. See above. Happy to see a broadly left of centre country swallowed up by a very right of centre country. Just to save the union.
And I do completely understand that people believe that the union is better for them, I just don't agree. But once again you state as fact "b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend." It's the pathetic too wee, too poor, too stupid argument dressed up in flowery language. And makes you sound like you think you know better than everyone else. And nowhere EVER have I said that Scotland independent will magically transform overnight into a Nirvana, but at least whatever it becomes it will be led by people with the best interests of the people living in Scotland. Neither Tories or Labour party in England can say that. They are only interested in getting the 50+ seats here and it's no surprise to see them go down to 1, count them 1! It's difficult for Labour folks to accept it but they are now irrelevant here. The Tories out Unionist you and everyone else pretty much does everything better than you. In some recent council wards you were 4th and beating 5th by by just a handful of votes. So it's not just national level that folk don't want to vote Labour. My council ward had an election last week and sadly see the Tories won with a fairly large majority and most of those votes seems to have come from Labour. Tories up 9.7%, Labour down 12.1%. Explain that away!
It also sticks in the throat to see the likes of Leonard claiming some sort of victory when the Glasgow council women eventually won their equal pay fight helped by the SNP council and the SNP government. It was a Labour council that was fighting them tooth and nail! Hypocrisy of the highest order. And is probably one of the reasons that Labour voters are, in their thousands, changing their political party but maybe not their beliefs

[One Day Soon]

You only needed to post this bit so we know your views. Both patronising and incredibly insulting to all people who vote Scottish Green to even consider that they are in any way like the SNP.

Yes, both parties are in favour of an independent Scotland but you are ignoring the numerous concessions that the Scottish Green Party have got out of the SNP because the SNP need their support to get some things through parliament.

I’ll decide what I need to post to convey my views thanks. It’s not a police state, yet.

The Scottish ‘Greens’ are a laughable excuse for a green party. When push comes to shove they will do almost literally anything to try to curry favour with SNP voters for second preference votes dos that they can remain MSPs. A party that claims to be green slavishly propping up the most pro-oil political party in Western Europe, who’d have though it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’ll decide what I need to post to convey my views thanks. It’s not a police state, yet.

The Scottish ‘Greens’ are a laughable excuse for a green party. When push comes to shove they will do almost literally anything to try to curry favour with SNP voters for second preference votes dos that they can remain MSPs. A party that claims to be green slavishly propping up the most pro-oil political party in Western Europe, who’d have though it.

See the post above from Wee County, Labour are far worse for doing whatever the Tories want.

As I said, the Greens have got a number of things they wanted in exchange for supporting the governing party. You just need to see on here how many SNP people think the only thing at the election is SNP votes first and second, a lot are not willing to give votes to the greens because they actually realise that the Greens are able to get things from the SNP.

Propping up, you mean like labour do for the tories in Aberdeen city?? :rolleyes:

You obviously see the greens as a threat :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

With the greatest of respect JMS, you don't get a say on that. You do get a say on the articles of faith in your own party though.

Home rule is not the same as independence and never was. It is closer to devolution than it is to independence.

Gladstone's home rule bill for Ireland (which was the basis of Keir Hardie's platform) would have seen all Irish MPs relocated to Dublin and only defence and foreign affairs reserved to westminster.

Devo-max-plus? It's obviously closer to indy than the current devo-min-they-can-get-away-with.

[One Day Soon]

Gladstone's home rule bill for Ireland (which was the basis of Keir Hardie's platform) would have seen all Irish MPs relocated to Dublin and only defence and foreign affairs reserved to westminster.

Devo-max-plus? It's obviously closer to indy than the current devo-min-they-can-get-away-with.

So we are agreed it is not independence or anything like it. Let's put that canard to one side when trying to make the farcical case as to 'but why can't this different political party called Labour just adopt the central policy of this other political party called the SNP'.

[One Day Soon]

As mentioned in another couple of posts from others Labour is happy to see a Tory government as long as the union is intact. And to argue otherwise is to go against what has been said by leaders of your party on both sides of the border. Never work with the SNP against the Tories but happy to work with the Tories against the SNP. And as for the claptrap you know what it means. See above. Happy to see a broadly left of centre country swallowed up by a very right of centre country. Just to save the union.
And I do completely understand that people believe that the union is better for them, I just don't agree. But once again you state as fact "b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend." It's the pathetic too wee, too poor, too stupid argument dressed up in flowery language. And makes you sound like you think you know better than everyone else. And nowhere EVER have I said that Scotland independent will magically transform overnight into a Nirvana, but at least whatever it becomes it will be led by people with the best interests of the people living in Scotland. Neither Tories or Labour party in England can say that. They are only interested in getting the 50+ seats here and it's no surprise to see them go down to 1, count them 1! It's difficult for Labour folks to accept it but they are now irrelevant here. The Tories out Unionist you and everyone else pretty much does everything better than you. In some recent council wards you were 4th and beating 5th by by just a handful of votes. So it's not just national level that folk don't want to vote Labour. My council ward had an election last week and sadly see the Tories won with a fairly large majority and most of those votes seems to have come from Labour. Tories up 9.7%, Labour down 12.1%. Explain that away!
It also sticks in the throat to see the likes of Leonard claiming some sort of victory when the Glasgow council women eventually won their equal pay fight helped by the SNP council and the SNP government. It was a Labour council that was fighting them tooth and nail! Hypocrisy of the highest order. And is probably one of the reasons that Labour voters are, in their thousands, changing their political party but maybe not their beliefs


I'm Labour and I'm not happy to see either a Tory government or independence, so your analysis doesn't stack up. Unless of course its seen through the lens of the myopic nationalist view of politics which is independence good, anything else baaaaad. And don't give me pish about working with Tories, your party invited Thatcher through the door in 1979 and conspired with the Tories to have them prop up Salmond's first minority government up here in 2007. And I'll see your 'Labour is happy to see a Tory government as long as the union is intact' and raise you the SNP literally do not give a **** what the consequences are so long as Scotland becomes independent.

And I do completely understand that people believe that the union is better for them, I just don't agree. But once again you state as fact "b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend." It's the pathetic too wee, too poor, too stupid argument dressed up in flowery language. And makes you sound like you think you know better than everyone else.
You'd better take your "too wee, too poor, too stupid" angst up with John Swinney because they are his description of Scotland not anyone else's. I don't think I know better than anyone else but I do think that people like the SNP's Andrew Wilson in his Growth Commission and Paul Johnson of the Institute of Fiscal Studies might.

And nowhere EVER have I said that Scotland independent will magically transform overnight into a Nirvana, but at least whatever it becomes it will be led by people with the best interests of the people living in Scotland. Neither Tories or Labour party in England can say that. They are only interested in getting the 50+ seats here and it's no surprise to see them go down to 1, count them 1! It's difficult for Labour folks to accept it but they are now irrelevant here. The Tories out Unionist you and everyone else pretty much does everything better than you. In some recent council wards you were 4th and beating 5th by by just a handful of votes. So it's not just national level that folk don't want to vote Labour. My council ward had an election last week and sadly see the Tories won with a fairly large majority and most of those votes seems to have come from Labour. Tories up 9.7%, Labour down 12.1%. Explain that away!
There's little explaining required. The Scottish leader is invisible, the UK leader was until recently improbable and our politics has at the moment be successfully transformed into saltires good, everything else bad.

It also sticks in the throat to see the likes of Leonard claiming some sort of victory when the Glasgow council women eventually won their equal pay fight helped by the SNP council and the SNP government. It was a Labour council that was fighting them tooth and nail! Hypocrisy of the highest order. And is probably one of the reasons that Labour voters are, in their thousands, changing their political party but maybe not their beliefs[/QUOTE]
It may not surprise you to hear that I literally could not give a **** what Leonard has to say about anything. He is simply a place card that will be removed from the table setting after May next year. But then after May next year, if not before, I expect we will see quite a large scale change in the leadership of political parties in Scotland.

[One Day Soon]

See the post above from Wee County, Labour are far worse for doing whatever the Tories want.

As I said, the Greens have got a number of things they wanted in exchange for supporting the governing party. You just need to see on here how many SNP people think the only thing at the election is SNP votes first and second, a lot are not willing to give votes to the greens because they actually realise that the Greens are able to get things from the SNP.

Propping up, you mean like labour do for the tories in Aberdeen city?? :rolleyes:

You obviously see the greens as a threat :greengrin


The only thing the greens care about is their parliamentary careers. Anywhere else in the world and they are allergic to oil or any other carbon fuel. In Scotland? Nah you're alright mate we'll just look the other way while you lust after oilfields. As for concessions, the Lib Dems got STV for local govt elections from Labour in 2003 (not that I think that was a positive development), what have the greens delivered? The SNP bosses must love them; housetrained, don't require much feeding, generally fold on any matter of importance and can be relied upon to support independence in all weathers. I mean its ALMOST like they're just a useful client party...

I don't see the greens as a threat, I see them as a political joke.

[Smartie]

The only thing the greens care about is their parliamentary careers. Anywhere else in the world and they are allergic to oil or any other carbon fuel. In Scotland? Nah you're alright mate we'll just look the other way while you lust after oilfields. As for concessions, the Lib Dems got STV for local govt elections from Labour in 2003 (not that I think that was a positive development), what have the greens delivered? The SNP bosses must love them; housetrained, don't require much feeding, generally fold on any matter of importance and can be relied upon to support independence in all weathers. I mean its ALMOST like they're just a useful client party...

I don't see the greens as a threat, I see them as a political joke.

Maybe the Greens are just endearingly and appropriately pragmatic? Accepting they have to yield on certain subjects in order to gain successions they see as more important?

Or is that unlikely to be considered admirable by someone who is a follower of a party that has the power to do so much good, yet renders itself repeatedly unelectable due to infighting, being unable to find middle ground or agree on which exact brand of socialism to carry forward?

[weecounty hibby]

I'm Labour and I'm not happy to see either a Tory government or independence, so your analysis doesn't stack up. Unless of course its seen through the lens of the myopic nationalist view of politics which is independence good, anything else baaaaad. And don't give me pish about working with Tories, your party invited Thatcher through the door in 1979 and conspired with the Tories to have them prop up Salmond's first minority government up here in 2007. And I'll see your 'Labour is happy to see a Tory government as long as the union is intact' and raise you the SNP literally do not give a **** what the consequences are so long as Scotland becomes independent.

And I do completely understand that people believe that the union is better for them, I just don't agree. But once again you state as fact "b) know exactly what the brutal immediate financial consequences of independence are for all of us but most particularly the weakest and most vulnerable in society and c) realise that separation in this context is the enemy of social justice not its friend." It's the pathetic too wee, too poor, too stupid argument dressed up in flowery language. And makes you sound like you think you know better than everyone else.
You'd better take your "too wee, too poor, too stupid" angst up with John Swinney because they are his description of Scotland not anyone else's. I don't think I know better than anyone else but I do think that people like the SNP's Andrew Wilson in his Growth Commission and Paul Johnson of the Institute of Fiscal Studies might.

And nowhere EVER have I said that Scotland independent will magically transform overnight into a Nirvana, but at least whatever it becomes it will be led by people with the best interests of the people living in Scotland. Neither Tories or Labour party in England can say that. They are only interested in getting the 50+ seats here and it's no surprise to see them go down to 1, count them 1! It's difficult for Labour folks to accept it but they are now irrelevant here. The Tories out Unionist you and everyone else pretty much does everything better than you. In some recent council wards you were 4th and beating 5th by by just a handful of votes. So it's not just national level that folk don't want to vote Labour. My council ward had an election last week and sadly see the Tories won with a fairly large majority and most of those votes seems to have come from Labour. Tories up 9.7%, Labour down 12.1%. Explain that away!
There's little explaining required. The Scottish leader is invisible, the UK leader was until recently improbable and our politics has at the moment be successfully transformed into saltires good, everything else bad.

It also sticks in the throat to see the likes of Leonard claiming some sort of victory when the Glasgow council women eventually won their equal pay fight helped by the SNP council and the SNP government. It was a Labour council that was fighting them tooth and nail! Hypocrisy of the highest order. And is probably one of the reasons that Labour voters are, in their thousands, changing their political party but maybe not their beliefs
It may not surprise you to hear that I literally could not give a **** what Leonard has to say about anything. He is simply a place card that will be removed from the table setting after May next year. But then after May next year, if not before, I expect we will see quite a large scale change in the leadership of political parties in Scotland.[/QUOTE]
Can't do the fancy quote thing in my phone but here goes anyway.
First point, it may not stack up with you but it sure does for a heap if your elected representatives and a fair amount of the dwindling rank and file.
Second. The SNP let the Tories in thing is a crutch for the labour party to deflect from just how awful they were governing the country. I've no doubt that they helped but I don't think Callaghan actually blamed them in his memoirs. Also why no crying about the Liberals part in it, remember the Liblab pact, didn't end well! The fact remains that Labour were unelectable for years when the most hated government I can remember we're in power. And that was with Scotland returning 50+ seats every time.
This next bit ties in the above with the Leonard but. A placeholder!? Yeah it'll be alright when we get rid of him. Just like it would be alright when you got rid of Foot, and would be alright when you got rid of Kinnock! It wasn't alright until you got Tony Blair and now you all argue about Blairites v Corbynites! Always seems to be just round the corner for Labour.
As for the SNP not caring about the country and only independence, why do they keep getting voted in then? People see the job they are doing and keep voting for them. The polls have them winning another majority next year. Something that our parliament is actually designed to avoid
The fact of the matter is that I honestly believe that our politics are probably not too far apart, except for one glaring difference!! I just don't see a positive future for Scotland in the union and you do. I believe an independent Scotland will prosper and you don't.
Maybe one day when Scotland is independent we may even be campaigning together some some kind of Scottish Labour party😃✌️

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/NeilDrysdale/status/1332087768558792712?s=19

[ronaldo7]

As the polls, and the country move slowly but surely towards independence, the flailing arms of the better together troops are striking out. The battle this time will be dirtier than the last. Maybe we should get that pack of cards that Scottish labour are dealing with which has so many top politicians to choose from. The latest place card will be removed shortly for a new place card that we're all supposed to be happy for. A better place awaits

[Ozyhibby]

As the polls, and the country move slowly but surely towards independence, the flailing arms of the better together troops are striking out. The battle this time will be dirtier than the last. Maybe we should get that pack of cards that Scottish labour are dealing with which has so many top politicians to choose from. The latest place card will be removed shortly for a new place card that we're all supposed to be happy for. A better place awaits

The last 5 years of SNP dominance at elections has totally wiped out the pool of talent when it comes to unionist mp’s and msp’s that will be needed for indyref 2. May will likely see a few more lose their jobs.
The next campaign will also see a failure to form another joint Better Together campaign. They will run three seperate campaigns although I suspect there will be a fair bit of secret co-ordination.
Due to lack of recognisable elected current politicians they will have to rely on the old guard like Darling, Brown, Davidson etc. I doubt Johnson will last long enough to be a factor.
The next referendum will be very different from the last one but that is no guarantee of success.


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[Hibrandenburg]

The last 5 years of SNP dominance at elections has totally wiped out the pool of talent when it comes to unionist mp’s and msp’s that will be needed for indyref 2. May will likely see a few more lose their jobs.
The next campaign will also see a failure to form another joint Better Together campaign. They will run three seperate campaigns although I suspect there will be a fair bit of secret co-ordination.
Due to lack of recognisable elected current politicians they will have to rely on the old guard like Darling, Brown, Davidson etc. I doubt Johnson will last long enough to be a factor.
The next referendum will be very different from the last one but that is no guarantee of success.


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I hope you're wrong about Johnson.

[Moulin Yarns]

The only thing the greens care about is their parliamentary careers. Anywhere else in the world and they are allergic to oil or any other carbon fuel. In Scotland? Nah you're alright mate we'll just look the other way while you lust after oilfields. As for concessions, the Lib Dems got STV for local govt elections from Labour in 2003 (not that I think that was a positive development), what have the greens delivered? The SNP bosses must love them; housetrained, don't require much feeding, generally fold on any matter of importance and can be relied upon to support independence in all weathers. I mean its ALMOST like they're just a useful client party...

I don't see the greens as a threat, I see them as a political joke.

There is a difference between what concession Labour gave to the LibDems and the Greens have won from the SNP

In 2003 Labour were outnumbered by 50 seats to 79 for all opposition parties, they needed to form a workable coalition for the term of the parliament and the Lib Dems were happy to get their flagship policy of PR in return to vote with Labour for the term of the parliament.

The current parliament is a minority SNP Government which requires support on every vote, and as such the Scottish Greens only support them when they agree and/or when they can get some concession, and have voted against the government on an number of occassions, that is how the budget has been approved each year since 2016.

I think that explains why the Scottish Greens have been working for the people and not (just) themselves.

And finally, sustainable transport

https://greens.scot/Dual-Highland-Line


(https://greens.scot/Dual-Highland-Line)

[Jones28]

The last 5 years of SNP dominance at elections has totally wiped out the pool of talent when it comes to unionist mp’s and msp’s that will be needed for indyref 2. May will likely see a few more lose their jobs.
The next campaign will also see a failure to form another joint Better Together campaign. They will run three seperate campaigns although I suspect there will be a fair bit of secret co-ordination.
Due to lack of recognisable elected current politicians they will have to rely on the old guard like Darling, Brown, Davidson etc. I doubt Johnson will last long enough to be a factor.
The next referendum will be very different from the last one but that is no guarantee of success.


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We're going to have the Yes campaign, the "please please please stay" campaign and the "come back to daddy" campaign.

[Future17]

With the greatest of respect JMS, you don't get a say on that. You do get a say on the articles of faith in your own party though.

Home rule is not the same as independence and never was. It is closer to devolution than it is to independence.


I’ll decide what I need to post to convey my views thanks. It’s not a police state, yet.

The Scottish ‘Greens’ are a laughable excuse for a green party. When push comes to shove they will do almost literally anything to try to curry favour with SNP voters for second preference votes dos that they can remain MSPs. A party that claims to be green slavishly propping up the most pro-oil political party in Western Europe, who’d have though it.

:hmmm:

[ronaldo7]

Perth city north by election result. SNP win with 61% of first preference votes, up 12.8%. Tories came second but down 2.5%. Labour plummet to only 9.5% down by 6.2%.

That deck of cards better come up trumps, and quickly.

More jokers to come.

[SHODAN]

Perth city north by election result. SNP win with 61% of first preference votes, up 12.8%. Tories came second but down 2.5%. Labour plummet to only 9.5% down by 6.2%.

That deck of cards better come up trumps, and quickly.

More jokers to come.

The Lib Dems somehow gained Perth South.

[ronaldo7]

The Lib Dems somehow gained Perth South.

Yup, just saw that one, three way marginal. Lib dems won it on the last count.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Lib Dems somehow gained Perth South.


Yup, just saw that one. Last count?

Perth City South has had tory, SNP and Lib Dem councillors for as long as I can remember, the new Lib dem councillor is the wife of another Councillor. I'm not sure what the by election was for, same with the North one.

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1332295965471019013?s=21

Not the most subtle comments


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1332295965471019013?s=21

Not the most subtle comments


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He's Machiavellian. It wouldn't surprise me if this is designed to alienate floating voters, and he's got his hedge funds etc betting on independence.

[Ozyhibby]

Either way, it’s now clear that the status quo is no longer an option.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Either way, it’s now clear that the status quo is no longer an option.


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One Day Soon, even one day soon will realise it 😉

[One Day Soon]

:hmmm:

Which bit don’t you understand? If you’re not a Labour Party member you don’t get to decide Labour policy. If you want to post on Hibs.net you can post what you like, admins permitting. Pretty simple really.

[One Day Soon]

One Day Soon, even one day soon will realise it 😉

The status quo hasn’t been an option since 1999. Devolution has always been a journey rather than a destination. I’ve posted my preferred conclusion to all this elsewhere - and it’s a good one IMHO.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The status quo hasn’t been an option since 1999. Devolution has always been a journey rather than a destination. I’ve posted my preferred conclusion to all this elsewhere - and it’s a good one IMHO.

The Labour Party are now irrelevant in Scotland, I don't see a way back, certainly not with the younger voters in Scotland.
That counts them out in our lifetime, foolish to think otherwise.
The only Labour voters left are the working class of the 70's and 80's, and that's only going one way.

A capable Scottish Labour leader may get you a few more votes.

[One Day Soon]

The Labour Party are now irrelevant in Scotland, I don't see a way back, certainly not with the younger voters in Scotland.
That counts them out in our lifetime, foolish to think otherwise.
The only Labour voters left are the working class of the 70's and 80's, and that's only going one way.

A capable Scottish Labour leader may get you a few more votes.

Ok

[stoneyburn hibs]

Ok

Ok ?
Ok, I'll give you Ian Murray, struggling to think of any others.

In fairness, my experience with anyone under30 in Scotland is either a yes or no,not tied to any party.

[One Day Soon]

Ok ?
Ok, I'll give you Ian Murray, struggling to think of any others.

In fairness, my experience with anyone under30 in Scotland is either a yes or no,not tied to any party.

Not sure what you are expecting me to address here tbh. In my view independence is a diversionary crock of **** leading nowhere. The current state of all the political parties up here is woeful and it’s not likely to improve any time soon.

[CloudSquall]

Absolutely buckling under the pressure of 56% polls for Yes, you love to see it :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Not sure what you are expecting me to address here tbh. In my view independence is a diversionary crock of **** leading nowhere. The current state of all the political parties up here is woeful and it’s not likely to improve any time soon.

And down there too, surely?

[One Day Soon]

And down there too, surely?

Goes without saying GL, I’ll make no bones whatsoever about that. We need a complete political reset, all of the West does.

[The Modfather]

Not sure what you are expecting me to address here tbh. In my view independence is a diversionary crock of **** leading nowhere. The current state of all the political parties up here is woeful and it’s not likely to improve any time soon.

Genuine question, a diversion from what?

On your second point what will change if we decide against independence? Surely it will simply be more of the same woeful-ness. Independence might or might not change that (a Scottish Labour and a Scottish Tories released from the Westminster shackles might give viable alternatives and focus on the issues relevant to Scotland). As you’ll see from my apathetic to politics thread I’m no fan of politics and political parties, so don’t see independence as some magic answer, however the status quo of it’s crap now but it is what it is, is not an option for me.

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1332295965471019013?s=21

Not the most subtle comments


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I wonder what has done the most damage to the UK, democratically voted for decentralisation of powers or his family's business venture of choice?

Why anyone wants to stay shackled to this lot is beyond me. They thrive on division and confrontation and now the wizard wheeze that was Brexit has been and gone the rhetoric turns to the natives. An absolute shower of see you next tuesdays.

[Kato]

We need a complete political reset, all of the West does.


Like what?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Not sure what you are expecting me to address here tbh. In my view independence is a diversionary crock of **** leading nowhere. The current state of all the political parties up here is woeful and it’s not likely to improve any time soon.

You could address or at least have some sort of reply other than ok.

Independence certainly isn't a diversionary, certainly not to the voters in Scotland for the past 13 years.
Have a rethink.

[Glory Lurker]

Goes without saying GL, I’ll make no bones whatsoever about that. We need a complete political reset, all of the West does.

I agree, but I suspect we'll not agree on what that should be (no way!). The left needs to be moving back to where it was 40 years ago. All it's done since then is pave the way for where we are now.

[HibernianJK]

I’ve said it a fair few times before along with many other, that a left leaning Labour Party would absolutely flourish in an independent Scotland. They are absolutely holding themselves back with their affection for the Union. I am an SNP member and do like a lot of things to do with the party but the main reason being they are obviously the only option in the drive for Indy. Myself and many of my friends would certainly vote for a socialist society in an Indy Scotland. If only ScotLab had the self awareness to recognise it.

[Moulin Yarns]

The status quo hasn’t been an option since 1999. Devolution has always been a journey rather than a destination. I’ve posted my preferred conclusion to all this elsewhere - and it’s a good one IMHO.

If devolution is a journey then presumably there is a final destination? 🤔😉🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[Moulin Yarns]

Goes without saying GL, I’ll make no bones whatsoever about that. We need a complete political reset, all of the West does.

When you say we need a complete political reset, for Scotland that would happen after independence.

Truly Scottish Labour and tory parties with less need to follow Westminster. That's the thing I don't understand about the people against the referendum, it's a chance to reset the country, just like you want.

It's almost like they are scared of something.

[Future17]

Which bit don’t you understand? If you’re not a Labour Party member you don’t get to decide Labour policy. If you want to post on Hibs.net you can post what you like, admins permitting. Pretty simple really.

Whilst I would never presume to speak for another poster, JMS had clearly stated his post was his opinion. You told him he didn't get a say but told another poster commenting on your opinion that it's not "a police state". It came across as hypocritical to me.

If none of us are allowed a say on things we can't/don't directly influence, we might as well pack up the forum. :greengrin

[The Modfather]

When you say we need a complete political reset, for Scotland that would happen after independence.

Truly Scottish Labour and tory parties with less need to follow Westminster. That's the thing I don't understand about the people against the referendum, it's a chance to reset the country, just like you want.

It's almost like they are scared of something.

I’m in favour of independence, but don’t think it’s much of a re-set or a radical reshaping of politics. One of my my main drivers for independence is to get rid of the poisonous Westminster shackle that only cares about the SE of England (rest of England welcome to join us). That in itself will improve Scottish politics IMO as will parties making decisions and visions more relevant to Scotland.

I like Sturgeon, and think the SNP are relatively competent, but when push comes to shove theirs little to distinguish each party apart from their colour. For the most part, and backed up by my recent experiences contacting MSP’s, politicians are generally self serving, much like politics is basically bluff and spin. My apathetic to politics thread called out my view of how to look to redesign politics, but while Holyrood is less poisonous than Westminster, by its very nature the bluff and bluster over substance and for the genuine greater good won’t be any different than it is now IMO.

[HibernianJK]

I’m in favour of independence, but don’t think it’s much of a re-set or a radical reshaping of politics. One of my my main drivers for independence is to get rid of the poisonous Westminster shackle that only cares about the SE of England (rest of England welcome to join us). That in itself will improve Scottish politics IMO as will parties making decisions and visions more relevant to Scotland.

I like Sturgeon, and think the SNP are relatively competent, but when push comes to shove theirs little to distinguish each party apart from their colour. For the most part, and backed up by my recent experiences contacting MSP’s, politicians are generally self serving, much like politics is basically bluff and spin. My apathetic to politics thread called out my view of how to look to redesign politics, but while Holyrood is less poisonous than Westminster, by its very nature the bluff and bluster over substance and for the genuine greater good won’t be any different than it is now IMO.

Maybe not a total reset, but after Indy I definitely think Scotland would gravitate towards being a left leaning/socialist country rather than the more centrist option the SNP currently offers. The SNP may float that way after Indy but long term I reckon a different/new political party would be the preferred option.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe not a total reset, but after Indy I definitely think Scotland would gravitate towards being a left leaning/socialist country rather than the more centrist option the SNP currently offers. The SNP may float that way after Indy but long term I reckon a different/new political party would be the preferred option.

In any democracy there is never much room to move too far from the centre because it’s where the majority of the people are. There is no chance for anything radical. Small incremental changes are the norm.
Scotland may tac slightly more left than the south of England but don’t be expecting socialism anytime soon. We all have mortgages, run businesses and pay taxes just like everywhere else and we are not going to vote to lose all that.
I expect that in an independent Scotland a centre left party might dominate the way the right does down south but there will be times when a centre right party will win elections.
It will be a subtle but important change from now. What will be important is that in a small country of only 5 million people, our politicians will be a lot more responsive to the people they serve. Accountability is a lot higher when you are closer to your electors.


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[lapsedhibee]

He's Machiavellian. It wouldn't surprise me if this is designed to alienate floating voters, and he's got his hedge funds etc betting on independence.

BA in on that act too?

https://twitter.com/British_Airways/status/1332550844756144130

[CropleyWasGod]

BA in on that act too?

https://twitter.com/British_Airways/status/1332550844756144130

They've deleted the Tweet.

No such thing as bad publicity 😆

[Jack]

BA in on that act too?

https://twitter.com/British_Airways/status/1332550844756144130

They're a Spanish company. It will take time for them to catch on.

[Del Boy]

Don’t think this will be any kind of accurate representation of the population as a whole but from a group of about 20 colleagues and friends of mine in their 30’s I would say last time it was about 50/50 voting yes and no, but if there was a referendum next week that group would now be about 90% yes

[Skol]

lol that the word diversionary was challenged but crock of **** was accepted :-)

I agree with the issues about the way the UK is governed and the impact on Scotland, but I just dont see that Independence is the answer to those problems unless we accept we will be significantly worse off than we are right now.

The record of the SNP so far is not exactly great with failings on Health, Education, Law and Order, Covid and if they were in sole charge I really dont see a good outcome. The Salmond case also doesnt show them in a great light and if that had been the a situation of the Tories, they would be right on making an issue of it. The opposition though cant barely muster a useful politician between them.

[Ozyhibby]

lol that the word diversionary was challenged but crock of **** was accepted :-)

I agree with the issues about the way the UK is governed and the impact on Scotland, but I just dont see that Independence is the answer to those problems unless we accept we will be significantly worse off than we are right now.

The record of the SNP so far is not exactly great with failings on Health, Education, Law and Order, Covid and if they were in sole charge I really dont see a good outcome. The Salmond case also doesnt show them in a great light and if that had been the a situation of the Tories, they would be right on making an issue of it. The opposition though cant barely muster a useful politician between them.

Why should we be worse off?


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[Skol]

Why should we be worse off?


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I have yet to see a plan that suggests we wouldnt be worse off. I think it woldl be great if the SNP could come out and share this with us and it would be a good way to persuade the doubters

[Ozyhibby]

I have yet to see a plan that suggests we wouldnt be worse off. I think it woldl be great if the SNP could come out and share this with us and it would be a good way to persuade the doubters

Ireland are better off than us. Denmark are better off than us. Sweden. Iceland. Norway. Why is it that you think Scotland should be worse off than these countries? What is it about Scotland that makes you feel we are not as capable as these countries?


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[The Modfather]

I have yet to see a plan that suggests we wouldnt be worse off. I think it woldl be great if the SNP could come out and share this with us and it would be a good way to persuade the doubters

Should you not wait for something like a white paper v2 and meaningful debate about what an independent vision of Scotland might look like before defaulting to automatically being worse off? What plans have you seen that suggest we would be worse off? No one knows yet as it’s far too early for any meaningful debate. Rhetoric saying we would be be worse of or better of at this point is just that, rhetoric, and not particularly conducive to a constructive debate IMO.

[Skol]

To my mind I want that evidence before the SNP go demanding another vote otherwise we risk a Brexit like outcome without knowing what we are voting for

[The Modfather]

To my mind I want that evidence before the SNP go demanding another vote otherwise we risk a Brexit like outcome without knowing what we are voting for

What’s the post Brexit plan for the here and now that will dissuade me from voting for another referendum?

[lapsedhibee]

lol that the word diversionary was challenged but crock of **** was accepted :-)

I agree with the issues about the way the UK is governed and the impact on Scotland, but I just dont see that Independence is the answer to those problems unless we accept we will be significantly worse off than we are right now.

The record of the SNP so far is not exactly great with failings on Health, Education, Law and Order, Covid and if they were in sole charge I really dont see a good outcome. The Salmond case also doesnt show them in a great light and if that had been the a situation of the Tories, they would be right on making an issue of it. The opposition though cant barely muster a useful politician between them.

The SNP should have been making an issue of Charlie Elphicke? :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

What’s the post Brexit plan for the here and now that will dissuade me from voting for another referendum?

Post Brexit plan, lol!

[Ozyhibby]

To my mind I want that evidence before the SNP go demanding another vote otherwise we risk a Brexit like outcome without knowing what we are voting for

Is there a plan for making Scotland not the poorest country in the region? Either you want to keep Scotland poor or you think there is a plan? Which is it?


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[Skol]

Is there a plan for making Scotland not the poorest country in the region? Either you want to keep Scotland poor or you think there is a plan? Which is it?


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Is Scotland poor currently?

Poorly governed I will give you from both Westminster and holyrood.

[Ozyhibby]

Is Scotland poor currently?

Poorly governed I will give you from both Westminster and holyrood.

It’s poor compared to our neighbours. Why are we the poorest country in this part of Northern Europe?


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[cabbageandribs1875]

It’s poor compared to our neighbours. Why are we the poorest country in this part of Northern Europe?


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because we don't spend our pocket money wisely :I'm waiti

[Ozyhibby]

because we don't spend our pocket money wisely :I'm waiti

Maybe we are just genetically inferior? Anyone asked Gordon Strachan?
It’s really strange to me that this is acceptable to unionists? I find it really hard to understand?


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[One Day Soon]

Maybe we are just genetically inferior? Anyone asked Gordon Strachan?
It’s really strange to me that this is acceptable to unionists? I find it really hard to understand?


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That what is acceptable to unionists?

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6367676]Maybe we are just genetically inferior? Anyone asked Gordon Strachan?
It’s really strange to me that this is acceptable to unionists? I find it really hard to understand?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOT

That what is acceptable to unionists?

That it’s ok to be poorer than all the other countries close to us.


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[danhibees1875]

It’s poor compared to our neighbours. Why are we the poorest country in this part of Northern Europe?


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On what basis are we poorer?

I've tried to look it up myself based on GDP per capita but it looks like we're better off than Wales and NI, and only worse than England because of a huge pull of wealth towards London - we're otherwise comparatively higher than a lot of English regions.

[Ozyhibby]

On what basis are we poorer?

I've tried to look it up myself based on GDP per capita but it looks like we're better off than Wales and NI, and only worse than England because of a huge pull of wealth towards London - we're otherwise comparatively higher than a lot of English regions.

Those places have less control of their affairs than we have. It’s almost like the more control a country has over its economy, the richer it is.[emoji23]


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[danhibees1875]

Those places have less control of their affairs than we have. It’s almost like the more control a country has over its economy, the richer it is.[emoji23]


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So we're not poorer than our neighbors?

[The Modfather]

What’s the post Brexit plan for the here and now that will dissuade me from voting for another referendum?

@Skol, did you see my reply?

[The Modfather]

Genuine question, a diversion from what?

On your second point what will change if we decide against independence? Surely it will simply be more of the same woeful-ness. Independence might or might not change that (a Scottish Labour and a Scottish Tories released from the Westminster shackles might give viable alternatives and focus on the issues relevant to Scotland). As you’ll see from my apathetic to politics thread I’m no fan of politics and political parties, so don’t see independence as some magic answer, however the status quo of it’s crap now but it is what it is, is not an option for me.

@ODS, did you see my reply?

[Ozyhibby]

So we're not poorer than our neighbors?

We are poorer than our independent neighbours.


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[Skol]

@Skol, did you see my reply?

There is no Brexit plan, we know that. Doesnt make Independence a good things though.

[The Modfather]

There is no Brexit plan, we know that. Doesnt make Independence a good things though.

That’s the point. Independence is as big a risk as it is staying shackled to the post Brexit status quo.

[danhibees1875]

We are poorer than our independent neighbours.


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Ah, okay - gotcha. :aok:

Some of them anyway. :agree:

[CloudSquall]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx



Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".

[Jones28]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx



Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".

That gave me the boak.

[Future17]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx



Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".

Another who either doesn't understand the "once in a generation" issue or is it happy to abuse it to support their preferences.

[One Day Soon]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx

Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".


It’s an excellent piece. And if Kane is slating it then it must be both hitting the spot and decent quality because PK couldn’t find, produce or evaluate quality writing with a tour guide and a Sherpa support group. A man who thinks a thesaurus and a random word generator is the same as coherence.

[Moulin Yarns]

When you say we need a complete political reset, for Scotland that would happen after independence.

Truly Scottish Labour and tory parties with less need to follow Westminster. That's the thing I don't understand about the people against the referendum, it's a chance to reset the country, just like you want.

It's almost like they are scared of something.

I wonder if ODS will respond 🤔😉

[lord bunberry]

It’s an excellent piece. And if Kane is slating it then it must be both hitting the spot and decent quality because PK couldn’t find, produce or evaluate quality writing with a tour guide and a Sherpa support group. A man who thinks a thesaurus and a random word generator is the same as coherence.
Given he’s written an opinion piece I’m not really sure how it could be hitting the spot. I can’t Stand Oliver and since he’s started giving his opinions about the union I like him even less, but what I will say is that it’s one of the few things I’ve read that tries to make a positive case for the union, it’s disappointing he trots out the tired old once in a generation line and even goes on to claim it was written into the Edinburgh agreement which he knows fine well it wasn’t.

[allmodcons]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx


Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".

A terrible piece from a teary eyed British Nationalist.

An archaeologist to trade with tired old views of the Union that are no longer shared by someone who knows better

http://www.csap.cam.ac.uk/network/duncan-maclennan/

It's clear where the movement is when a former Special Adviser to Donald Dewar says enough is enough.

[CloudSquall]

It’s an excellent piece. And if Kane is slating it then it must be both hitting the spot and decent quality because PK couldn’t find, produce or evaluate quality writing with a tour guide and a Sherpa support group. A man who thinks a thesaurus and a random word generator is the same as coherence.

Seeing you try to defend that piece along with getting you all worked up about Pat Kane is a perfect way to start my Buenos Aires Sunday afternoon :greengrin

Later chaps:greengrin

[The Modfather]

It’s an excellent piece. And if Kane is slating it then it must be both hitting the spot and decent quality because PK couldn’t find, produce or evaluate quality writing with a tour guide and a Sherpa support group. A man who thinks a thesaurus and a random word generator is the same as coherence.

Still curious what you think independence is a diversion from? However looks like you’ve decided to ignore that question so I’ll leave it there.

[Ozyhibby]

In defence of Oliver, he at least admits that his unionism comes from the fact that he feels British. I’ve always thought that to be the best reason for supporting the union. There is nothing wrong with saying that you feel British and want to stay part of Britain.
Given that it doesn’t work for us economically or politically then that’s really the only reason to stick with it.


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[One Day Soon]

Seeing you try to defend that piece along with getting you all worked up about Pat Kane is a perfect way to start my Buenos Aires Sunday afternoon :greengrin

Later chaps:greengrin

You're the one responding to me on Oliver, not the other way round. I think I can see from this thread who is riled with his piece. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Still curious what you think independence is a diversion from? However looks like you’ve decided to ignore that question so I’ll leave it there.


No, just pretty busy in the run up to Christmas with both work and, well, Christmas. Bit knackered too these days to be honest - not getting enough exercise, November never a great month for me and sleeping badly for a while now too. So I'm dipping in and out every so often and I'm not replying to everything that I'd like to.

I think independence is a diversion from:

* Getting on with what needs to be done in just about every policy area there is. In my opinion the present SNP government couldn't spell radical if you gave them all the vowels and consonants and a dictionary.

* Pursuing a social justice agenda instead of pouring all energy into the constitutional agenda.

* Recognising that the Union while imperfect is immensely better for our interests than separating with all its costs and consequences. We should be looking to to drastically improve it, not discard it.

* Holding all our politicians and political parties to account for being collectively and almost without exception low grade, dismally unambitious and shockingly self-serving.

* Addressing the strengths and weaknesses of our economy - in my view no Scottish Government since the advent of devolution in 1999 has actually had or pursued an economic policy.


If I wanted to 'fix' Scotland I wouldn't, as they say, start here. But then I also wouldn't have spent the last 13 years obsessively promoting independence regardless of the consequences and in all circumstances. It's obscured every other issue, meant less accountability on those issues (maybe that has been part of the point) and is an approach that means it would take us at least a decade just to get back to whatever point we were starting from. Anyone who thinks the answer to Brexit is to add even more economic uncertainty and incoherence on top - and in the midst of the wrecking economic consequences of Covid too - is either not paying attention to the evidence or just doesn't care that much about it because independence matters more than anything else.

[Kato]

Pack up boys it's time to go home, Neil Oliver has published his "Paean to Britain" :greengrin

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx



Pat Kane put it beautifully on Twitter, "stunningly, arse-clenchingly bad".No ones arguments on politics, self determination, finances, history or the future matter one bit, only his argument matters. His self deprecation never begins.

Ignores Brexit and the clear rise of xenophobia and racism, ignores the upside-down financial arrangements that makes everyone beholden to the City of London, and the inbuilt boom bust kleptocracy that goes with it, and insists because he feels British none of these arguments matter.

Some argument.

Selfish twat.

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[One Day Soon]

In defence of Oliver, he at least admits that his unionism comes from the fact that he feels British. I’ve always thought that to be the best reason for supporting the union. There is nothing wrong with saying that you feel British and want to stay part of Britain.
Given that it doesn’t work for us economically or politically then that’s really the only reason to stick with it.


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Apart you mean from being part of one of the world's strongest currencies, having low and stable interest rates, having an economy strong enough to be able to borrow what it needed to cope with Covid, having a powerful central bank and being a part of a Union which over the last 300 years has seen its constituent parts able to financially support and subsidise one another through good times and bad - including the present position where Scotland's current £15 billion annual (pre-covid) deficit is covered by the the rest of the Union.

[Ozyhibby]

Apart you mean from being part of one of the world's strongest currencies, having low and stable interest rates, having an economy strong enough to be able to borrow what it needed to cope with Covid, having a powerful central bank and being a part of a Union which over the last 300 years has seen its constituent parts able to financially support and subsidise one another through good times and bad - including the present position where Scotland's current £15 billion annual (pre-covid) deficit is covered by the the rest of the Union.

Which of those things do Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Ireland not have?


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[One Day Soon]

Which of those things do Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Ireland not have?


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We aren't Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Ireland. Good to see you acknowledge that we do have those things already though.

[Ozyhibby]

We aren't Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Ireland. Good to see you acknowledge that we do have those things already though.

Most countries have them, that’s why. [emoji23]


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[weecounty hibby]

Most countries have them, that’s why. [emoji23]


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We need to remember that there are folk within the Labour party who have said in the past that we Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions for ourselves. Clearly there are some who still believe that to be true.

[Jack]

Apart you mean from being part of one of the world's strongest currencies, having low and stable interest rates, having an economy strong enough to be able to borrow what it needed to cope with Covid, having a powerful central bank and being a part of a Union which over the last 300 years has seen its constituent parts able to financially support and subsidise one another through good times and bad - including the present position where Scotland's current £15 billion annual (pre-covid) deficit is covered by the the rest of the Union.

By what measures is the pound one of the world's strongest?

And perhaps we should have the same discussion in the not to distant future once Brexit kicks in?

[Callum_62]

I do laugh at the suggestion that Scotland is such an outlier in the world that we would somehow implode at being given total freedom to make our our choices

Imagine the trade deal we could make with our close friends and neighbors to our South with all the water and electcity they need from us

Its like the German automobile industry x 10

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[The Modfather]

No, just pretty busy in the run up to Christmas with both work and, well, Christmas. Bit knackered too these days to be honest - not getting enough exercise, November never a great month for me and sleeping badly for a while now too. So I'm dipping in and out every so often and I'm not replying to everything that I'd like to.

I think independence is a diversion from:

* Getting on with what needs to be done in just about every policy area there is. In my opinion the present SNP government couldn't spell radical if you gave them all the vowels and consonants and a dictionary.

* Pursuing a social justice agenda instead of pouring all energy into the constitutional agenda.

* Recognising that the Union while imperfect is immensely better for our interests than separating with all its costs and consequences. We should be looking to to drastically improve it, not discard it.

* Holding all our politicians and political parties to account for being collectively and almost without exception low grade, dismally unambitious and shockingly self-serving.

* Addressing the strengths and weaknesses of our economy - in my view no Scottish Government since the advent of devolution in 1999 has actually had or pursued an economic policy.


If I wanted to 'fix' Scotland I wouldn't, as they say, start here. But then I also wouldn't have spent the last 13 years obsessively promoting independence regardless of the consequences and in all circumstances. It's obscured every other issue, meant less accountability on those issues (maybe that has been part of the point) and is an approach that means it would take us at least a decade just to get back to whatever point we were starting from. Anyone who thinks the answer to Brexit is to add even more economic uncertainty and incoherence on top - and in the midst of the wrecking economic consequences of Covid too - is either not paying attention to the evidence or just doesn't care that much about it because independence matters more than anything else.

Thanks for the reply, I might not agree with much of it but always good to see proper debate (hope that doesn’t come across as condescending)

I think we’re probably more aligned than it looks at first glance. We’re both unhappy with the state of play, with politics in general and probably both waiting on the day the revolution begins, vive la revolution 😀

I think it’s important to separate independence from any one party. Much like it is separating unionism from the Tories. Independence is about so much more than the next 5 or 10 years, which if we’re being honest will be under the SNP. I see a much more positive case for an Independent Scotland choosing centre left parties (which will all be much of a muchness in reality, but we can but hope an independent Labour and Tories would re-energise and become viable alternatives) than a Westminster and England that is moving further right at an alarming rate. I think it’s undeniable that Scotland and England are ever more so moving in different directions exemplified by the Brexit vote. Which makes it harder to cater for all under one umbrella.

Independence is one alternative. I’ve yet to see anything to suggest staying in the union will be anything but more of the same. Without a vision or plan to fix the union it’s easy to see why independence appears to have consistently held up in the polls. Independence v more of the same is a fight the union can’t win IMO. Westminster doesn’t appear to understand anything outside there own south east bubble (including northern England etc). The only real way I can see to change the current landscape we’re all unhappy with is going it alone. That might jolt northern England and others into demanding more powers or they’ll follow our lead, and a fairer power distribution who knows further down the line a more equal (across all regions and countries) union might be an appealing landscape to revisit the union. I get that’s a very idealistic outlook and not very realistic, but first and foremost for me it’s about breaking free of Westminster. That’s the real lead weight of the union.

[Ozyhibby]

A terrible piece from a teary eyed British Nationalist.

An archaeologist to trade with tired old views of the Union that are no longer shared by someone who knows better

http://www.csap.cam.ac.uk/network/duncan-maclennan/

It's clear where the movement is when a former Special Adviser to Donald Dewar says enough is enough.

The article for anyone interested. More and more Labour figures now beginning to see the way forward. And this guy is a heavy weight in the movement.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201129/8a96a624df41661af70c8cb17d2d2174.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201129/a15104f3623c1befdb56bd315ffef9ee.jpg


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[Berwickhibby]

We need to remember that there are folk within the Labour party who have said in the past that we Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions for ourselves. Clearly there are some who still believe that to be true.

No not folk, one person Johann Lamont made that remark and she was castigated by many members within the Labour Party.

[Kato]

No not folk, one person Johann Lamont made that remark and she was castigated by many members within the Labour Party.Makes you wonder how someone with such wacko, loony tune ideas can make it as leader of Scottish Labour. Not only how but why.

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[Berwickhibby]

Makes you wonder how someone with such wacko, loony tune ideas can make it as leader of Scottish Labour. Not only how but why.

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Beats me...not my choice

[Kato]

Beats me...not my choiceThat's fair enough. You could hazard a guess though. Like maybe a whole load of Labour Party members share her whacko, loony tune ideas, not including those who spoke out against them obviously, otherwise how did she make it as leader?

I'd certainly be questioning any kind of support of a political party that has strange ideas about genetics, especially self-loathing ideas such as hers. Zero socialism there.

Really, what a thicko she must be to not only hold that opinion in this day and age but to verbalize it.

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[weecounty hibby]

That's fair enough. You could hazard a guess though. Like maybe a whole load of Labour Party members share her whacko, loony tune ideas, not including those who spoke out against them obviously, otherwise how did she make it as leader?

I'd certainly be questioning any kind of support of a political party that has strange ideas about genetics, especially self-loathing ideas such as hers. Zero socialism there.

Really, what a thicko she must be to not only hold that opinion in this day and age but to verbalize it.

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Never! She was just another place holder until someone better came along, you know someone like Jim Murphy or Kezia Dugdale or Richard Leonard. What a line up!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Right here is a question


If the choice is between independence or a dissolution of the Scottish Parliament what would you vote for?

[Kato]

Right here is a question


If the choice is between independence or a dissolution of the Scottish Parliament what would you vote for?Good question, as without the former the Tories will bring about the latter.

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[Berwickhibby]

Right here is a question


If the choice is between independence or a dissolution of the Scottish Parliament what would you vote for?

Is there the option to abstain.... I personally don't want Independence or the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament

[Kato]

Is there the option to abstain.... I personally don't want Independence or the dissolution of the Scottish ParliamentWhat did you think of Rees-Mogg's comments the other day? Sounds like he is all for dismantling the devolved powers. That along with The Muppet's comments at the start of last week signals an offensive against devolution or at least what devolution will look like in the future.

This is on the back of them dragging back some powers once the transition period of Brexit is done, given the act they are dragging ass-backwards through Westminster is a clear attack on devolution and an attempt to centralize powers to themselves

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[Ozyhibby]

Is there the option to abstain.... I personally don't want Independence or the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament

I really don’t think that is an option anymore.


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[Berwickhibby]

What did you think of Rees-Mogg's comments the other day? Sounds like he is all for dismantling the devolved powers. That along with The Muppet's comments at the start of last week signals an offensive against devolution or at least what devolution will look like in the future.

This is on the back of them dragging back some powers once the transition period of Brexit is done, given the act they are dragging ass-backwards through Westminster is a clear attack on devolution and an attempt to centralize powers to themselves

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Rees-Mogg is an absolute upper class ...... (pick your own profanity) just because I am a Unionist does not make me a Tory and the Scottish Parliament should have more powers not less.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is there the option to abstain.... I personally don't want Independence or the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament

Not a choice I'm afraid

[Moulin Yarns]

Rees-Mogg is an absolute upper class ...... (pick your own profanity) just because I am a Unionist does not make me a Tory and the Scottish Parliament should have more powers not less.

In that case, independence is the best way to make that happen.

[Kato]

Rees-Mogg is an absolute upper class ...... (pick your own profanity) just because I am a Unionist does not make me a Tory and the Scottish Parliament should have more powers not less.I never suggested you were a Tory, I know you are Labour supporter.

I was asking what you thought of his speech.

The Tories publicised a few months ago that they were discussing their strategy on "how to handle" devolved powers, the first salvo of that strategy was seen last week. Comments by the Primate and the Leader of The House attacking devolution. You bet your bottom dollar they will set about neutering Holyrood.

So put aside Tory v Labour v SNP for a second and look at things as though it's a choice between no devolved powers and independence, having a First Minister or a Secretary of State.

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[Berwickhibby]

I never suggested you were a Tory, I know you are Labour supporter.

I was asking what you thought of his speech.

The Tories publicised a few months ago that they were discussing their strategy on "how to handle" devolved powers, the salvo of that strategy was seen last week. Comments by the Primate and the Leader of The House attacking devolution. You bet your bottom dollar they will set about neutering Holyrood.

So put aside Tory v Labour v SNP for a second and look at things as though it's a choice between no devolved powers and independence, having a First Minister or a Secretary of State.

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I thought Rees-Moggs speech was insulting.. As much as I want to see Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom, should the Tories dissolve the Scottish Parliment or try and bring a vote in Westminster to disolve the Scottish Parliment I would support independence

[Ozyhibby]

I thought Rees-Moggs speech was insulting.. As much as I want to see Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom, should the Tories dissolve the Scottish Parliment or try and bring a vote in Westminster to disolve the Scottish Parliment I would support independence

But your ok with them taking powers from it in the mean time?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Given he’s written an opinion piece I’m not really sure how it could be hitting the spot. I can’t Stand Oliver and since he’s started giving his opinions about the union I like him even less, but what I will say is that it’s one of the few things I’ve read that tries to make a positive case for the union, it’s disappointing he trots out the tired old once in a generation line and even goes on to claim it was written into the Edinburgh agreement which he knows fine well it wasn’t.

The positive case appears to be, “I love Britain, fab island and we used to have an empire”.

I think better together 2 should get him on board as chief strategist! :wink:

[Kato]

I thought Rees-Moggs speech was insulting.. As much as I want to see Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom, should the Tories dissolve the Scottish Parliment or try and bring a vote in Westminster to disolve the Scottish Parliment I would support independenceCheers, a blunt honest answer. Like that.

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[Moulin Yarns]

I thought Rees-Moggs speech was insulting.. As much as I want to see Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom, should the Tories dissolve the Scottish Parliment or try and bring a vote in Westminster to disolve the Scottish Parliment I would support independence

👍🤗

[Berwickhibby]

But your ok with them taking powers from it in the mean time?


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Where did I say or suggest that....

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/opinion/when-does-sturgeon-decide-to-start-living-dangerously?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

Decent assessment.


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[SHODAN]

Is there the option to abstain.... I personally don't want Independence or the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament

So you'd be equally happy with either?

[lord bunberry]

The positive case appears to be, “I love Britain, fab island and we used to have an empire”.

I think better together 2 should get him on board as chief strategist! :wink:
I can see that happening.

[EI255]

Like her or not, that was a brilliant speech by Nicola Sturgeon on national TV just now. Tories will be running scared now. The Union, it appears, is coming to a conclusion.

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[ronaldo7]

Did she just say she's giving full time NHS staff in Scotland a £500 thank you payment?

[Bangkok Hibby]

Did she just say she's giving full time NHS staff in Scotland a £500 thank you payment?

She did. And part time staff a pro rata payment

[One Day Soon]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

[The Modfather]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

That’s quite the negative take on it. We’ll just use the money Boris told us about on the side of his bus 👍

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

We've had a quick poll on Hibs.net. Didn't you see it?

This one's on you. :greengrin

[Mon Dieu4]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

I was classed as an essential worker and I'm more than happy if it just goes to NHS workers

[One Day Soon]

That’s quite the negative take on it. We’ll just use the money Boris told us about on the side of his bus 👍

Christ, I hope the ‘plans’ for our finance in an independent Scotland are a bit more thought through than that.

[ronaldo7]

She did. And part time staff a pro rata payment

Magnificent. Let's hope Boris doesn't tax it. 😉

Let the flailing begin.

[One Day Soon]

We've had a quick poll on Hibs.net. Didn't you see it?

This one's on you. :greengrin

That doesn’t count Crops, I didn’t like the poll result so I’ll be wanting a re-take...

[Ozyhibby]

Wasn’t the complaint last week that the Scottish Government were sitting on a massive pile of cash?
Now we are worried that she is spending it? I can’t keep up.


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[danhibees1875]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

I think it's a nice and deserved thing to do but they're questions worth knowing the answer to IMO. :agree:

[One Day Soon]

I was classed as an essential worker and I'm more than happy if it just goes to NHS workers

Good for you, but that doesn’t answer my question. And I don’t see the logic at work - electoral politics aside - of singling out one group that risked their lives or kept essential services going but not others. To be fair, it may apply more widely but I haven’t seen the detail.

[AugustaHibs]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

Governments all across the world have wasted far more money on useless *****. Couldn’t give two ****s what it costs to be honest. Well done NS.

[weecounty hibby]

I wonder how much that will cost, where the money came from and whether other essential staff will be included: refuse collection, police, anyone who was an essential worker during Covid...

I was classed as an essential worker during the whole lockdown. To be honest I have no interest in getting any payment as I don't think I need/deserve it. NHS staff on the other hand do. Bin men, no disrespect, weren't saving lives and not sure if any of them have died due to being on the front line of Covid.

[weecounty hibby]

Good for you, but that doesn’t answer my question. And I don’t see the logic at work - electoral politics aside - of singling out one group that risked their lives or kept essential services going but not others. To be fair, it may apply more widely but I haven’t seen the detail.
Not seeing the detail hasn't stopped you with your usual Scots gov bashing though

[One Day Soon]

Wasn’t the complaint last week that the Scottish Government were sitting on a massive pile of cash?
Now we are worried that she is spending it? I can’t keep up.


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Then try harder. The complaint last week was that money which was meant to help the economy and business get through Covid was being stockpiled instead. One of the answers was a fairly glib ‘well, we’ll probably need it for Brexit consequences’. It’s not unreasonable to ask the cost and the source.

[One Day Soon]

Governments all across the world have wasted far more money on useless *****. Couldn’t give two ****s what it costs to be honest. Well done NS.

That doesn’t seem a very logical basis for anything but crack on.

[Ozyhibby]

Then try harder. The complaint last week was that money which was meant to help the economy and business get through Covid was being stockpiled instead. One of the answers was a fairly glib ‘well, we’ll probably need it for Brexit consequences’. It’s not unreasonable to ask the cost and the source.

This will surely help the economy though so that’s your question answered. Well done SG.


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[One Day Soon]

Not seeing the detail hasn't stopped you with your usual Scots gov bashing though

Which bit is Scot Govt bashing? Wanting to know the cost, the source or who is getting it and why?

It’s almost as though you’re so obsessed with being a fanboy for them that you treat any questions at all as being unacceptable.