Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

That only happens if we have a legally binding referendum though. As a supporter of Independence id love to be wrong but aslong as Boris is Prime Minister he ain't granting one

Independence will happen but I suspect it will be closer to 2030 than 2020 when it does.

He says he won’t but he also said he wouldn’t have a second lockdown. Or extend furlough. Etc etc.


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[Jack]

If a request to hold a referendum is refused I can see this going to the courts.

The more courts it has to go through the better it will be for the independence cause.

There will be a referendum.

[Since90+2]

He says he won’t but he also said he wouldn’t have a second lockdown. Or extend furlough. Etc etc.


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That's because of political pressure across the board and from within his own party which he wants to control.

The SNP asking for a referendum and pointing towards opinion polls (which don't hold as much weight as they once did) won't bother him at all. He has no reason to grant it or anything to gain.

[Since90+2]

If a request to hold a referendum is refused I can see this going to the courts.

The more courts it has to go through the better it will be for the independence cause.

There will be a referendum.

The authority to grant referendum rests with Westminster and was written into law at the time of devolution. I can't see that being a way to it.

[Moulin Yarns]

The authority to grant referendum rests with Westminster and was written into law at the time of devolution. I can't see that being a way to it.

Ahem. NI border?

[Since90+2]

Ahem. NI border?

Westminster/Boris broke international law there because it benefited them. If they are against a second referendum and holds the aces in that regard I'm not sure there is much the SNP can do.

People will just have to be patient, Scotland had the chance to vote independent in 2014 and never took it. It will come but it's going to be a while yet.

[Jack]

The authority to grant referendum rests with Westminster and was written into law at the time of devolution. I can't see that being a way to it.

And then there's International Law and Self-Determination. I'm not sure its by accident its the first thing mentioned in the UN Charter.

Accepting of course this current government have little regard for international law!

[Ozyhibby]

The optics of the Scottish govt having to go to court v the Uk govt would be terrible for the union.


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[The Modfather]

For any unionists (James, ODS etc), a genuine question. If the SNP are elected again next year, and the current polling trends remain the same. Putting aside that you would argue against voting for independence, would you agree or ague against another SNP government and consistently ahead in the polls being an undeniable mandate for another referendum?

[GlesgaeHibby]

If a request to hold a referendum is refused I can see this going to the courts.

The more courts it has to go through the better it will be for the independence cause.

There will be a referendum.

I think it's when rather than if a second referendum will be refused. Sturgeon asked May, she said now wasn't the time. She hasn't formally asked Boris, but he's said he'll say no.

I find it odd that the SNP aren't allowing a debate on alternative options to achieve independence at their upcoming conference. I get that Sturgeon wants a S30. But we know that Boris will say no, so why not debate and start work on a plan B?

[Jack]

I think it's when rather than if a second referendum will be refused. Sturgeon asked May, she said now wasn't the time. She hasn't formally asked Boris, but he's said he'll say no.

I find it odd that the SNP aren't allowing a debate on alternative options to achieve independence at their upcoming conference. I get that Sturgeon wants a S30. But we know that Boris will say no, so why not debate and start work on a plan B?

Why openly show your hand?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Why openly show your hand?

I wouldn't see it as that. I'd see it as getting ahead with an alternative, so that when the inevitable refusal of a s30 happens, plan B can be initiated so we can get out of Brexit Britain as quickly as possible.

[Moulin Yarns]

Westminster/Boris broke international law there because it benefited them. If they are against a second referendum and holds the aces in that regard I'm not sure there is much the SNP can do.

People will just have to be patient, Scotland had the chance to vote independent in 2014 and never took it. It will come but it's going to be a while yet.

You missed the point.

https://constitution--unit-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/constitution-unit.com/2019/03/06/holding-a-border-poll-in-northern-ireland-when-does-it-need-to-happen-and-what-questions-need-to-be-answered/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16045973698870&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fconstitution-unit.com%2F2019%2F03%2F06%2Fholding-a-border-poll-in-northern-ireland-when-does-it-need-to-happen-and-what-questions-need-to-be-answered%2F

When NI decides to hold a referendum on the Irish border, whether to reunify Ireland, they don't need to ask anyone. If Scotland had the same clause we would already be preparing for the referendum in September 2021.

[One Day Soon]

For any unionists (James, ODS etc), a genuine question. If the SNP are elected again next year, and the current polling trends remain the same. Putting aside that you would argue against voting for independence, would you agree or ague against another SNP government and consistently ahead in the polls being an undeniable mandate for another referendum?


Against, for a range of reasons.

The only grounds in the near term that might make me reconsider that would be opinion polling showing very high percentages in favour of independence consistently for a couple of years. And that would need to be post Covid polling.

[Glory Lurker]

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go.
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

[Glory Lurker]

Against, for a range of reasons.

The only grounds in the near term that might make me reconsider that would be opinion polling showing very high percentages in favour of independence consistently for a couple of years. And that would need to be post Covid polling.

What about the election of a majority of pro-independence parties next May?

[One Day Soon]

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go.
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!


Here we go, here we go.

Where we going?

[One Day Soon]

What about the election of a majority of pro-independence parties next May?


I assumed that was implicit in the original question GL. Like the Nevada spokesperson currently holding a press conference on their counting process, I won't be taking a lot of questions here...

[Glory Lurker]

Here we go, here we go.

Where we going?

You ken it, deep down :-)

[Glory Lurker]

I assumed that was implicit in the original question GL. Like the Nevada spokesperson currently holding a press conference on their counting process, I won't be taking a lot of questions here...

That's fine. I'm surprised you'd consider a democratic mandate insufficient though.

[One Day Soon]

You ken it, deep down :-)

Oh I see, that. Actually no, I think you have a lot of shark-infested water to cross.

[One Day Soon]

That's fine. I'm surprised you'd consider a democratic mandate insufficient though.

Happy to get into that some other time. I'm afraid I'm all loved up with the US Presidential election right now.

[Glory Lurker]

Happy to get into that some other time. I'm afraid I'm all loved up with the US Presidential election right now.

At the rate that's going we'll be independent before you're free to come back to the point :-).

I look forward to the joust!

[lord bunberry]

I think it’s certain that the tories will refuse a section 30 request and it will go to the courts. I also think the FM knows this and is preparing for it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it’s certain that the tories will refuse a section 30 request and it will go to the courts. I also think the FM knows this and is preparing for it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?

[lord bunberry]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?
Yes I just saw it on the news. I’ve no idea what role he plays now considering everything seems to go through Dross.

[weecounty hibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?
So their biggest defence is a piece of rhetoric used in the last referendum? Will they hold Johnson to his statement that the last election was a once in a generation election, a direct quote as well, and we won't have another for 25 or 40 years? Or even better are they holding him to dying in a ditch. They are ****ting themselves that it's happening and happening soon. Then Wales and then a united Ireland. Leaving England as a country on its own pining for empire and colonialism railing against Johnny Foreigner and blaming them for everything

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?

This is great news. They are turning the Indy movement into a democracy movement and who doesn’t want democracy?


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[Moulin Yarns]

This is great news. They are turning the Indy movement into a democracy movement and who doesn’t want democracy?


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Trump 😉

[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?"Lord Dunlop has called on Boris Johnson to demonstrate "strong leadership and statesmanship" and urgently come up with a "clear, coherent and consistent strategy for the Union."

Once that it is put into practice the tone deafness guarantees more percentage points for independence.

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[ronaldo7]

"Lord Dunlop has called on Boris Johnson to demonstrate "strong leadership and statesmanship" and urgently come up with a "clear, coherent and consistent strategy for the Union."

Once that it is put into practice the tone deafness guarantees more percentage points for independence.

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The lords and ladies from London must be heard.

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54827100

Have you seen that?

40 years sounds about right to me :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

40 years sounds about right to me :wink:

:faf:

[Colr]

Will Scotland be entitled to 10% of the contents of the British Museum?

What would you take? Bringing the Lewis chessmen back is a given.

Elgin Marbles for Elgin!!?

[Ozyhibby]

Will Scotland be entitled to 10% of the contents of the British Museum?

What would you take? Bringing the Lewis chessmen back is a given.

Elgin Marbles for Elgin!!?

A lot of that stuff we’ll likely trade away for less debt.


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[The Modfather]

Against, for a range of reasons.

The only grounds in the near term that might make me reconsider that would be opinion polling showing very high percentages in favour of independence consistently for a couple of years. And that would need to be post Covid polling.

I can understand those against independence, and while not agreeing with them, it’s a reasonable position. What I find harder to understand is how a second referendum can be denied should the SNP remain in power next year on the back of Indyref2.

The once in a generation line seems like the last desperate political spin the likes of Boris and Jack are left clinging to IMO. What people vote for is what people should get. No different to a party getting back in on a referendum to re-join the union ticket post independence. Why should people be denied a second referendum if that’s what they vote for in 2021 because of something one politician said in 2014?

[Keith_M]

Will Scotland be entitled to 10% of the contents of the British Museum?

What would you take? Bringing the Lewis chessmen back is a given.

Elgin Marbles for Elgin!!?


Apparently, we're also entitled to 10% of The Royal Family and 10% of Boris Johnson's illegitimate offspring.

[Ozyhibby]

I can understand those against independence, and while not agreeing with them, it’s a reasonable position. What I find harder to understand is how a second referendum can be denied should the SNP remain in power next year on the back of Indyref2.

The once in a generation line seems like the last desperate political spin the likes of Boris and Jack are left clinging to IMO. What people vote for is what people should get. No different to a party getting back in on a referendum to re-join the union ticket post independence. Why should people be denied a second referendum if that’s what they vote for in 2021 because of something one politician said in 2014?

There is no defence.
I really hope that the unionist stick with this strategy of suspending democracy in Scotland. Nothing will do more for the cause of independence. The next Yes campaign can be all about bringing democracy back to Scotland.


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[Glory Lurker]

Will Scotland be entitled to 10% of the contents of the British Museum?

What would you take? Bringing the Lewis chessmen back is a given.

Elgin Marbles for Elgin!!?

Whatever we got I'd want us to give it back to wherever it was plundered from in the first place.

[Kato]

Apparently, we're also entitled to 10% of The Royal Family and 10% of Boris Johnson's illegitimate offspring.Dozens of spongers AND the royal family. No thanks.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Whatever we got I'd want us to give it back to wherever it was plundered from in the first place.

Absolutely. What is Lewis doing while he doesn't have a full set of chess pieces?

[McD]

I can understand those against independence, and while not agreeing with them, it’s a reasonable position. What I find harder to understand is how a second referendum can be denied should the SNP remain in power next year on the back of Indyref2.

The once in a generation line seems like the last desperate political spin the likes of Boris and Jack are left clinging to IMO. What people vote for is what people should get. No different to a party getting back in on a referendum to re-join the union ticket post independence. Why should people be denied a second referendum if that’s what they vote for in 2021 because of something one politician said in 2014?



i would dearly love and would pay good money to watch someone ask bojo, next time he trots out his ‘once in a generation’ schtick, to reply stating they assume that the same level of weight and gravity should be applied to his idle in a ditch’ comment

[Future17]

Absolutely. What is Lewis doing while he doesn't have a full set of chess pieces?

He just replaces the missing pieces with winners medals.

[lapsedhibee]

He just replaces the missing pieces with winners medals.
:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54879209

John Major suggesting two referendums on independence.
One on the principle and one on the terms.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-54879213?__twitter_impression=true

Tories opposition to another referendum appears to be very soft.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-54879211?__twitter_impression=true

Lots of independence coverage on the BBC today?


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[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-54879211?__twitter_impression=true

Lots of independence coverage on the BBC today?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"pointing to the huge financial support the Treasury has provided during the Covid crisis and arguing that wouldn't be possible as an independent country"

Broad shoulders? It's already been revealed that the money they printed will have to be paid back to "balance the books."

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[Ozyhibby]

"pointing to the huge financial support the Treasury has provided during the Covid crisis and arguing that wouldn't be possible as an independent country"

Broad shoulders? It's already been revealed that the money they printed will have to be paid back to "balance the books."

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Not to mention the fact that Ireland, Norway, Denmark etc have managed just fine without these broad shoulders?


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[Jack]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54879209

John Major suggesting two referendums on independence.
One on the principle and one on the terms.


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I suggested that on here even before the SNP even came to power in Scotland and got shot down in flames! At the time I was against independence but thought it was fair. I'm for independence now, have been for a long time, and I still think its fairly reasonable.

If only the torys had been as reasonable with Brexit.

[Bostonhibby]

Apparently, we're also entitled to 10% of The Royal Family and 10% of Boris Johnson's illegitimate offspring.I'd be very wary of taking on all those Germans and a completely unlimited liability in the latter case.

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[Ozyhibby]

I suggested that on here even before the SNP even came to power in Scotland and got shot down in flames! At the time I was against independence but thought it was fair. I'm for independence now, have been for a long time, and I still think its fairly reasonable.

If only the torys had been as reasonable with Brexit.

The problem with that scenario is that it’s in one sided interest to negotiate in bad faith in order to encourage one result over the other in a 2nd referendum.


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[degenerated]

I suggested that on here even before the SNP even came to power in Scotland and got shot down in flames! At the time I was against independence but thought it was fair. I'm for independence now, have been for a long time, and I still think its fairly reasonable.

If only the torys had been as reasonable with Brexit.It wouldn't work, it would allow the UK be awkward, belligerent and to refuse anything but unfavourable terms knowing they would win any confirmatory vote based on that.

[JeMeSouviens]

It wouldn't work, it would allow the UK be awkward, belligerent and to refuse anything but unfavourable terms knowing they would win any confirmatory vote based on that.

I'm not really sure what they could do though?

- trade conditions will be determined by the EU/UK relationship, whatever that is
- splitting assets will be determined by international law*
- we are not aiui obligated to take on UK debt, well technically we can't take on UK debt, but we are not obligated to support UK debt
- we no longer want a formal currency union, or at least are not going into a ref with that as policy

We hold the trump card of saying - "pack up your Subs and have them out of here by Friday".

I suppose they could try and keep us out of the UK/Ireland/Channel Isles common travel area.



* yes, I know they're not the best at following that :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201112/efad84dfdd561b311f3dc788186057da.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201112/58e9f5b94efb007b881876b00e34c313.jpg


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[Glory Lurker]

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

[CloudSquall]

Tell all the yoons you knoooowww, that we've won 14 polls in a roooowww





:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Polls mean nowt.

[One Day Soon]

:hmmm:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201112/efad84dfdd561b311f3dc788186057da.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201112/58e9f5b94efb007b881876b00e34c313.jpg


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Please, will the 47% of people intending voting SNP in the regional list think for a minute. If your region has already got all first choice SNP MSPs you are unlikely to get another one from the list. If you want an independence supporting majority in the Scottish Parliament then your regional vote should be for the Greens.

[JeMeSouviens]

Please, will the 47% of people intending voting SNP in the regional list think for a minute. If your region has already got all first choice SNP MSPs you are unlikely to get another one from the list. If you want an independence supporting majority in the Scottish Parliament then your regional vote should be for the Greens.

Not necessarily. If the Green vote is too small to amount to a seat, then the attempted tactical vote may backfire by reducing the SNP vote which could end up losing a pro-indy seat.

Tactical voting works in fptp constituency votes, it is next to impossible to get it to work reliably in a system like the list vote.

People should just vote for their first choice party on the list.

[JeMeSouviens]

:hmmm:

It's one poll. Just as we shouldn't get too excited about the 58% MORI poll, we shouldn't get disheartened by this 51% one. Individual polls will produce outliers. The trend is what to look for.

Plus I hear Panelbase have one in the works with that will probably counterbalance this result. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Not necessarily. If the Green vote is too small to amount to a seat, then the attempted tactical vote may backfire by reducing the SNP vote which could end up losing a pro-indy seat.

Tactical voting works in fptp constituency votes, it is next to impossible to get it to work reliably in a system like the list vote.

People should just vote for their first choice party on the list.


I'm imagining a 47% green vote :greengrin

[Mon Dieu4]

May as well stop now, I've just had a pamphlet through the door from "Willie Rennie's Scottish Liberal Democrats" who say they will stop it if I vote for them

[Moulin Yarns]

May as well stop now, I've just had a pamphlet through the door from "Willie Rennie's Scottish Liberal Democrats" who say they will stop it if I vote for them

How to lose votes and influence people 😉

[Mr Grieves]

It's one poll. Just as we shouldn't get too excited about the 58% MORI poll, we shouldn't get disheartened by this 51% one. Individual polls will produce outliers. The trend is what to look for.

Plus I hear Panelbase have one in the works with that will probably counterbalance this result. :wink:

Here's the panelbase one

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/11/scot-goes-poppanelbase-poll-history.html?m=1

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes 56% (+1)
No 44% (-1)


Scottish voting intentions for Westminster:

SNP 50% (-3)
Conservatives 21% (n/c)
Labour 20% (+1)
Liberal Democrats 5% (-1)
Greens 2% (n/a)

Westminster seats projection (with changes from 2019): SNP 56 (+8), Conservatives 2 (-4), Labour 1 (n/c), Liberal Democrats 0 (-4)

Scottish Parliament constituency ballot:

SNP 53% (-2)
Conservatives 21% (+1)
Labour 18% (+3)
Liberal Democrats 5% (-1)
Greens 3% (n/c)

Scottish Parliament regional list ballot:

SNP 46% (-4)
Conservatives 20% (+2)
Labour 17% (+2)
Greens 8% (n/c)
Liberal Democrats 6% (n/c)

Scottish Parliament seats projection (with changes from 2016): SNP 71 (+8), Conservatives 25 (-6), Labour 19 (-5), Greens 9 (+3), Liberal Democrats 5 (n/c)

[SHODAN]

May as well stop now, I've just had a pamphlet through the door from "Willie Rennie's Scottish Liberal Democrats" who say they will stop it if I vote for them

Imagine thinking declaring you're led by Willie Rennie to be a vote winner.

[JeMeSouviens]

Here's the panelbase one

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/11/scot-goes-poppanelbase-poll-history.html?m=1

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes 56% (+1)
No 44% (-1)


Scottish voting intentions for Westminster:

SNP 50% (-3)
Conservatives 21% (n/c)
Labour 20% (+1)
Liberal Democrats 5% (-1)
Greens 2% (n/a)

Westminster seats projection (with changes from 2019): SNP 56 (+8), Conservatives 2 (-4), Labour 1 (n/c), Liberal Democrats 0 (-4)

Scottish Parliament constituency ballot:

SNP 53% (-2)
Conservatives 21% (+1)
Labour 18% (+3)
Liberal Democrats 5% (-1)
Greens 3% (n/c)

Scottish Parliament regional list ballot:

SNP 46% (-4)
Conservatives 20% (+2)
Labour 17% (+2)
Greens 8% (n/c)
Liberal Democrats 6% (n/c)

Scottish Parliament seats projection (with changes from 2016): SNP 71 (+8), Conservatives 25 (-6), Labour 19 (-5), Greens 9 (+3), Liberal Democrats 5 (n/c)


Thanks.

Weird how Yougov can find more SNP support in a sample that has less Indy support. :confused:

[Glory Lurker]

Plus I hear Panelbase have one in the works with that will probably counterbalance this result. :wink:

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

:-)

[CloudSquall]

While I understand the motives of people pushing for a tactical vote on the list to increase the overall number of pro indy seats it just screams another opportunity to do the extremely Scottish act of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by it all going completely Pete Tong.

[One Day Soon]

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

:-)


Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

:-)

[JeMeSouviens]

Imagine thinking declaring you're led by Willie Rennie to be a vote winner.

The irrelevant cherry on top of the cake of irrelevance. Why do they bother?

[One Day Soon]

The irrelevant cherry on top of the cake of irrelevance. Why do they bother?

Many people have thought that about the SNP at times, think it about Labour now and certainly thought it about the Tories too. Healthy for democracy, no?

[Glory Lurker]

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!
Here we go
Here we go
Here we go-o-o!

:-)

Flagrant breach of copyright! See you in court!

[JeMeSouviens]

Many people have thought that about the SNP at times, think it about Labour now and certainly thought it about the Tories too. Healthy for democracy, no?

I can’t remember the last time the Libs seemed distinctively liberal or in fact distinctively anything. Especially under Westminster fptp, they should throw in their lot with Labour and build one mildly left coalition to oppose the Tories.

[One Day Soon]

I can’t remember the last time the Libs seemed distinctively liberal or in fact distinctively anything. Especially under Westminster fptp, they should throw in their lot with Labour and build one mildly left coalition to oppose the Tories.

Decline. I think the Nats should take them...

[Mr Grieves]

Thanks.

Weird how Yougov can find more SNP support in a sample that has less Indy support. :confused:

It is a weird one. The yougov poll seems to have a higher percentage of don't knows/refused to answer

[Moulin Yarns]

After last night's result the next poll could be interesting 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Tell all the yoons you knoooowww, that we've won 14 polls in a roooowww





:greengrin

It has mentioned before that the term "Yoon" is offensive as is "Snazi"

[CapitalGreen]

It has mentioned before that the term "Yoon" is offensive as is "Snazi"

Didn’t have you down as the easily offended type Berwickhibby.

[Berwickhibby]

Didn’t have you down as the easily offended type Berwickhibby.

Not offended just hate double standards

[CapitalGreen]

Not offended just hate double standards

Why would someone be offended by the term Yoon, which is a shortening of the word Unionist spelt in a phonetical manner? In the same way that Nat is a shortening of the word Nationalist.

[Berwickhibby]

Why would someone be offended by the term Yoon, which is a shortening of the word Unionist spelt in a phonetical manner?

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist....both terms were agreed as derogatory in previous discussions on this site

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist

Yes, that's obviously all it is. :rolleyes:

btw, this is actually the first time I've seen "Snazi", so top marks for originality.

[Moulin Yarns]

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist

Is the proper term for a nationalist not a gnat? After all, Yoon can refer to unionists of all hues, whereas snati can only refer to supporters of a certain party.

[Berwickhibby]

Yes, that's obviously all it is. :rolleyes:

btw, this is actually the first time I've seen "Snazi", so top marks for originality.

There was a previous discussion...I cannot recall which thread but certain terms were not acceptable... Yoon...Nippy ...Snazi and a few others were considered derogatory

[CapitalGreen]

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist....both terms were agreed as derogatory in previous discussions on this site

I don’t find it offensive. You said you didn’t find it offensive either so presumably you don’t think it is offensive. You didn’t answer my previous question, why would someone find the term yoon offensive?

[lapsedhibee]

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist

Think your understanding of 'abbreviation' may be a tad eccentric.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.kabalarians.com/m/snazi.htm

Let's own it. 😂

[Berwickhibby]

I don’t find it offensive. You said you didn’t find it offensive either so presumably you don’t think it is offensive. You didn’t answer my previous question, why would someone find the term yoon offensive?

Have you heard a Unionist describe themselves as a "Yoon" no... it was brought in as an insult.... call me what you want, but if you want to describe Unionists with that term I will happily start using derogatory terms for Nationalists

[lapsedhibee]

Have you heard a Unionist describe themselves as a "Yoon" no... it was brought in as an insult.... call me what you want, but if you want to describe Unionists with that term I will happily start using derogatory terms for Nationalists
Deep doon, are you objecting to the word 'Yoon' because it sounds a bit like 'loon'?

[Berwickhibby]

Deep doon, are you objecting to the word 'Yoon' because it sounds a bit like 'loon'?

You may have a point why this was adopted as an insult by members of the Yes campaign in 2014.

[lapsedhibee]

You may have a point why this was adopted as an insult by members of the Yes campaign in 2014.

And would you say there's a genuine equivalence in using 'loon' as an insult and 'nazi' as an insult?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.definitions.net/definition/yoon

Doesn't appear that Yoon is a derogatory term.

In Korean it means awesome. 🤔

[marinello59]

Not offended just hate double standards

I just find it depressing that so many want to divide us in to Nationalist and Unionist no matter what topic is being discussed.

[CloudSquall]

I always had yoon down as an internet term on the same "banter" level as "duncans" in reference to Hearts but due to the constant pumping in the polls I´ll refrain from the use to protect the sensitive yoo....unionist souls :greengrin

[CapitalGreen]

Have you heard a Unionist describe themselves as a "Yoon" no... it was brought in as an insult.... call me what you want, but if you want to describe Unionists with that term I will happily start using derogatory terms for Nationalists

You’ve still not identified why someone may find it offensive as per my original question. You may not like having a label attributed to you but there is nothing inherently offensive in the term yoon. As you’ve pointed out earlier, you don’t find it offensive.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.definitions.net/definition/yoon

Doesn't appear that Yoon is a derogatory term.

In Korean it means awesome. 🤔

Nippy is not derogatory in the dictionary either 🤔

[CapitalGreen]

I just find it depressing that so many want to divide us in to Nationalist and Unionist no matter what topic is being discussed.

I have never called anyone a Nat or a Yoon but I take issue with someone conflating the labelling of someone a Yoon with calling someone a Nazi.

[Berwickhibby]

You’ve still not identified why someone may find it offensive as per my original question. You may not like having a label attributed to you but there is nothing inherently offensive in the term yoon. As you’ve pointed out earlier, you don’t find it offensive.

As I said carry on I suppose rather be "Yoon" than a "Snazi"

[CapitalGreen]

As I said carry on I suppose rather be "Yoon" than a "Snazi"

The Scottish Politics equivalent of Rangers fans calling Celtic fans Paedos in response to being called Huns.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nippy is not derogatory in the dictionary either 🤔

What about the term that you coined 'Snazi' which I saw for the first time today in your post?

[lapsedhibee]

I have never called anyone a Nat or a Yoon but I take issue with someone conflating the labelling of someone a Yoon with calling someone a Nazi.
:bitchy: You'll be saying next that calling someone a Jam Tart is somehow different from calling someone a dirty fenian *******.

[Berwickhibby]

What about the term that you coined 'Snazi' which I saw for the first time today in your post?

Really, that term, (which I think is awful) has been around for years, first seen it on a post about Arthur Thompson, point is double standards, using derogatory terms should not be acceptable on the forum, I wish I could find the original posts and if I remember correctly Pretty Boy covered the subject eloquently about acceptable terms.

[Future17]

Fair enough then Snazi is back in play which is abbreviation on Scottish Nationalist....both terms were agreed as derogatory in previous discussions on this site

I think most people would know that "Snazi" would be considered offensive by many due to the connotations of the "Nazi" part of with Nazi Germany. I'm not sure what the negative connotation of "Yoon" is.

That said, I'm fairly certain that "Yoon" is often used derogatorily, but to choose the term "Snazi" to compare it to in order to try and make a point is a bit embarrassing IMO.

[lapsedhibee]

Really, that term, (which I think is awful) has been around for years, first seen it on a post about Arthur Thompson, point is double standards, using derogatory terms should not be acceptable on the forum, I wish I could find the original posts and if I remember correctly Pretty Boy covered the subject eloquently about acceptable terms.

If you want to make a point about double standards you need roughly equivalent terms - perhaps Yoon and Nat, or ScotNat. Certainly not snazi, ScotNazi, or any other similar term which only you on this forum ever seem to have heard of.

[Berwickhibby]

If you want to make a point about double standards you need roughly equivalent terms - perhaps Yoon and Nat, or ScotNat. Certainly not snazi, ScotNazi, or any other similar term which only you on this forum ever seem to have heard of.

So the term "Yoon" is now acceptable on the Holy Ground?

[Moulin Yarns]

So the term "Yoon" is now acceptable on the Holy Ground?

Awesome 😉

[lapsedhibee]

So the term "Yoon" is now acceptable on the Holy Ground?

I'd be happy to see Unionist and Nationalist written out in full, and even happier to see it recognised that the whole of Scotland isn't split into one or other of those political groupings.

[The Modfather]

I see we’re now into the real meat and bones of the independence debate 😀

[Berwickhibby]

I see we’re now into the real meat and bones of the independence debate 😀

Lol....nothing to do with the independence debate, that's coming regardless what I would like, but i will stand my ground if I feel double standards are being applied

[Moulin Yarns]

I see we’re now into the real meat and bones of the independence debate 😀

It's what happens when trolling occurs. 🤔

[Future17]

I see we’re now into the real meat and bones of the independence debate 😀

As a vegetarian, I'd prefer you didn't use those terms on here.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's one poll. Just as we shouldn't get too excited about the 58% MORI poll, we shouldn't get disheartened by this 51% one. Individual polls will produce outliers. The trend is what to look for.

Plus I hear Panelbase have one in the works with that will probably counterbalance this result. :wink:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18868014.scottish-independence-another-record-broken-yes-vote-56-per-cent/

Panelbase 56% yes for the Snazi 😉

[weecounty hibby]

Have you heard a Unionist describe themselves as a "Yoon" no... it was brought in as an insult.... call me what you want, but if you want to describe Unionists with that term I will happily start using derogatory terms for Nationalists
When you say start to, do you really mean continue to. I believe you were at the very heart of the conversation you are referencing. If my recollection is wrong I apologise.
Anyway I don't believe I have ever used the term Yoon but to actually use it together with snazi as an example is beyond belief and one of the bigger straw clutching exercises I've ever seen.
It is also laughable when you look at the unionist group as a wider collective and you will see that there are far more that would be considered far right wing than there are in the nationalist side. Actual nazi salutes while "protecting" statues FFS!
I think that there is a need to understand everyone's pov when it comes to this and I have friends who will never ever be anything other than unionists. Do I fall out with them and call them names? No, of course not. When Scotland becomes independent, as it surely will, we all need to work together to make scotland the country that it can be.

[Moulin Yarns]

That was a crazy couple of hours over lunchtime. The Kelty Clippie certainly stirred it up a bit.


Come oan, git aff. 😁

[CropleyWasGod]

That was a crazy couple of hours over lunchtime. The Kelty Clippie certainly stirred it up a bit.

She'll nae tak nae advice.

[Berwickhibby]

She'll nae tak nae advice.

My point is still valid ... if derogatory terms are not to be used then it should be to everyone

[lapsedhibee]

My point is still valid ... if derogatory terms are not to be used then it should be to everyone

Yoon should at least be asterisked out. :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

My point is still valid ... if derogatory terms are not to be used then it should be to everyone

Whoosh 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Whoosh 😉

I got the Kelty Clippy jibe ....but chose to ignore it

[Moulin Yarns]

I got the Kelty Clippy jibe ....but chose to ignore it

If you got it (and how was it a jibe? You are from Kelty and you conduct a 1 man crusade to outlaw the legal word Yoon which means awesome), at least get it right, it's Kelty Clippie. Clippy was the Microsoft assistant (for those of a certain vintage :wink: )

[Moulin Yarns]

Whoosh 😉


:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

[CropleyWasGod]

I got the Kelty Clippy jibe ....but chose to ignore it

There was no jibe from me.:confused:

[Berwickhibby]

If you got it (and how was it a jibe? You are from Kelty and you conduct a 1 man crusade to outlaw the legal word Yoon which means awesome), at least get it right, it's Kelty Clippie. Clippy was the Microsoft assistant (for those of a certain vintage :wink: )

Yawn, once again you are wrong, nothing unusual there, I am not from Kelty, I am Edinburgh born and bred. Perhaps in your tiny mind I am having a 1 man crusade to outlaw the word "Yoon" . I apologise for my misspelling of Clippie and bow to your superior knowledge on Fife buses and their staff.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yawn, once again you are wrong, nothing unusual there, I am not from Kelty, I am Edinburgh born and bred. Perhaps in your tiny mind I am having a 1 man crusade to outlaw the word "Yoon" . I apologise for my misspelling of Clippie and bow to your superior knowledge on Fife buses and their staff.

Your location is Kelty despite the user name and being edinburgh born!! Correct?

Pity about the humour bypass. https://electricscotland.com/poetry/kelty_clippy.htm

If you want to stop the non offensive word Yoon, the worst move is to then call all the other side Snazis!!!

[Berwickhibby]

Your location is Kelty despite the user name and being edinburgh born!! Correct?

Pity about the humour bypass. https://electricscotland.com/poetry/kelty_clippy.htm

If you want to stop the non offensive word Yoon, the worst move is to then call all the other side Snazis!!!

I have not called anyone that .... I stated that it was discussed earlier this year and those sort of terms were considered offensive...show me a post where I have called anyone by the name...I have used the word as a counter to Yoon as offensive. But appears offence is only one way

[weecounty hibby]

I have not called anyone that .... I stated that it was discussed earlier this year and those sort of terms were considered offensive...show me a post where I have called anyone by the name...I have used the word as a counter to Yoon as offensive. But appears offence is only one way
It's a very very poor comparison though. I genuinely do not believe anyone has ever been offended by being called a Yoon, in fact as it's a shirt version of unionist I'm sure some will be delighted. However snazi is as you well know is a term derived from Nazi, not a derivative of a party or belief held by any nationalist I know or have met. On the other hand I could show you dozens, maybe even hundreds, possibly thousands of unionists who are very far right, think that throwing Nazi salutes about is acceptable and do firmly believe that they are a superior race

[Moulin Yarns]

I have not called anyone that .... I stated that it was discussed earlier this year and those sort of terms were considered offensive...show me a post where I have called anyone by the name...I have used the word as a counter to Yoon as offensive. But appears offence is only one way

You are very sensitive. You started the debate, which, as far as I can tell, has clearly stated that Yoon is not offensive. You think that using the term Snazi is an equivalent in terms of offensiveness, even though it has clear links to nazi Germany.

[Berwickhibby]

It's a very very poor comparison though. I genuinely do not believe anyone has ever been offended by being called a Yoon, in fact as it's a shirt version of unionist I'm sure some will be delighted. However snazi is as you well know is a term derived from Nazi, not a derivative of a party or belief held by any nationalist I know or have met. On the other hand I could show you dozens, maybe even hundreds, possibly thousands of unionists who are very far right, think that throwing Nazi salutes about is acceptable and do firmly believe that they are a superior race

And there are many thousands of Unionists like myself, who are socialist left wing Labour supporters who abhor the right wing and those sort of disgusting idiots. The term Nazi is taken from the German word for Nationalism and I first read that Snazi term in an article years ago about the SNP leader of that time when he was interned. That of course does not make it right, however and I stand by original point if derogatory terms are being used then it opens up a can of worms. Perhaps an admin may wish to make a ruling on the term.....happy to delete all my posts containing the term on whatever they decide

[Glory Lurker]

I pride myself in being well dressed. I'm a snazzy snazi.

[Berwickhibby]

I pride myself in being well dressed. I'm a snazzy snazi.

:greengrin:greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

And there are many thousands of Unionists like myself, who are socialist left wing Labour supporters who abhor the right wing and those sort of disgusting idiots. The term Nazi is taken from the German word for Nationalism and I first read that Snazi term in an article years ago about the SNP leader of that time when he was interned. That of course does not make it right, however and I stand by original point if derogatory terms are being used then it opens up a can of worms. Perhaps an admin may wish to make a ruling on the term.....happy to delete all my posts containing the term on whatever they decide
You should read up on the arrest, imprisonment and subsequent release without any charges being brought against Arthur Donaldson. He denied all accusations of ever colluding with or supporting Nazi Germany and no evidence was ever produced to support the accusations. Something that the English royal family if the time would struggle to do. Adamson was arrested in complete hearsay and was never charged. There are however pictures of her majesty Queen Elizabeth II throwing out Nazi salutes and her uncle was a passionate supporter of Hitler

[Future17]

I pride myself in being well dressed. I'm a snazzy snazi.

I've seen you in photos taken by the paparsnazi.

[Glory Lurker]

I've seen you in photos taken by the paparsnazi.

:-)

[Berwickhibby]

You should read up on the arrest, imprisonment and subsequent release without any charges being brought against Arthur Donaldson. He denied all accusations of ever colluding with or supporting Nazi Germany and no evidence was ever produced to support the accusations. Something that the English royal family if the time would struggle to do. Adamson was arrested in complete hearsay and was never charged. There are however pictures of her majesty Queen Elizabeth II throwing out Nazi salutes and her uncle was a passionate supporter of Hitler

I never said it was right...it's where I first read that term

[Moulin Yarns]

I've seen you in photos taken by the paparsnazi.

He also likes freeform music, he's a jazzysnazi.

[Moulin Yarns]

I never said it was right...it's where I first read that term

And you choose to perpetually use it 🙄

[Berwickhibby]

And you choose to perpetually use it ��

I will now if it annoys you :wink:....actually I won't as i posted earlier the term is abhorrent, I will just use Nippy when commenting about the FM as that also bugs you ��

[weecounty hibby]

I will now if it annoys you :wink:....actually I won't as i posted earlier the term is abhorrent, I will just use Nippy when commenting about the FM as that also bugs you ��

Excellent news that the unionist side have had to revert to name calling to annoy the nationalists as they have nothing left. Let's hope it never moves into Chinese burns and nipple twisters!!! ✌️😃

[Moulin Yarns]

You should read up on the arrest, imprisonment and subsequent release without any charges being brought against Arthur Donaldson. He denied all accusations of ever colluding with or supporting Nazi Germany and no evidence was ever produced to support the accusations. Something that the English royal family if the time would struggle to do. Adamson was arrested in complete hearsay and was never charged. There are however pictures of her majesty Queen Elizabeth II throwing out Nazi salutes and her uncle was a passionate supporter of Hitler

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Donaldson

Have to admit, never heard of him before. But thanks to Berwickhibby from kelty for the Wikipedia entry 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Excellent news that the unionist side have had to revert to name calling to annoy the nationalists as they have nothing left. Let's hope it never moves into Chinese burns and nipple twisters!!! ✌️😃

Funny it was Nationalist who reverted to name calling earlier this thread that started the latest string of posts.

[danhibees1875]

I don't think either are offensive but I do find the whole (G)Nat/Yoon thing a bit strange - its usually an indicator that the rest of the content isn't worth much time.

Snazi is a level above those (in a worse way) IMO.

[Moulin Yarns]

Funny it was Nationalist who reverted to name calling earlier this thread that started the latest string of posts.

Aye, you mean the Korean word for awesome? Until you have to lower the tone using nazi to describe scottish nationalists.

[Glory Lurker]

He also likes freeform music, he's a jazzysnazi.

Nice.

[lapsedhibee]

Nice.

:greengrin

[Future17]

Excellent news that the unionist side have had to revert to name calling to annoy the nationalists as they have nothing left. Let's hope it never moves into Chinese burns and nipple twisters!!! ✌️😃

Surely you can't call Chinese burns by that name in this day and age?!?

[StevieC]

He also likes freeform music, he's a jazzysnazi.

Would the correct term be jazzysnazzysnazi or snazzyjazzysnazi? Which adjective takes priority?

[Glory Lurker]

Would the correct term be jazzysnazzysnazi or snazzyjazzysnazi? Which adjective takes priority?

What a good question, although it's made me very unsure about who I actually am!!

[Hibrandenburg]

And there are many thousands of Unionists like myself, who are socialist left wing Labour supporters who abhor the right wing and those sort of disgusting idiots. The term Nazi is taken from the German word for Nationalism and I first read that Snazi term in an article years ago about the SNP leader of that time when he was interned. That of course does not make it right, however and I stand by original point if derogatory terms are being used then it opens up a can of worms. Perhaps an admin may wish to make a ruling on the term.....happy to delete all my posts containing the term on whatever they decide

Calling a Unionist a Yoon is no better or worse than calling A Scottish Nationalist a Nat. Both are mere abbreviations. Calling A Scottish Nationalist a Snazi is like calling a Unionist a Flute playing, Catholic hating bigot. But I'm sure you know that.

BTW, Nazi is the German abbreviation for National Socialist.

[CropleyWasGod]

What a good question, although it's made me very unsure about who I actually am!!

You're Carmine Lupertazzi

[One Day Soon]

Yoon is pejorative and clearly meant to be. Anyone using that term can usually be pretty accurately diagnosed as coming from within the ranks of the SNP or so close to that position as being indistinguishable. It's also a convenient shorthand for Unionist, but still pejorative all the same.

Snazi or whatever is much more than pejorative, it is actively offensive for the reasons I'll mention below relating to Gordon Brown. If you want to assert that Nationalists, or a subset, have fascist tendencies then the term 'fascist' is available which would no doubt provoke huge argument but is at least not quite as emotionally loaded as Snazi (is it Snazi or Snatzi?). Fascist in political outlook is very different from being sympathetic to the aims and actions of the Nazis. In any event I can honestly say I've never come across it before in almost 40 years of being very politically active, I don't like it and its also a bit crap. Just from a political discussion point of view, never mind the offensiveness of Snazi I'd put it and people who use it in the same box of w4nkers as those who use terms such as Liebour, Tony Bliar, etc. Just naff and doesn't really work as dog whistle messaging.

Nippy, Magic Grandad, Jimmy Krankie, Bottler Brown, Attila the Hen and whatever Keir Starmer is called etc I have less of a problem with. That's part and parcel of politics in taking something personal and magnifying it.

Quite some time ago now I took great exception to some posters on here describing Gordon Brown as a quisling for the perfectly sensible reason that Vidkun Quisling was a collaborator with and enabler of the Nazis whose actions helped to see Jews murdered in concentration camps. Describing Gordon in that way was as stupid and disgusting as it was historically incoherent and I would suggest that is true here in the SNP or Nationalist context too.

It's not like we're short of a range of other terms we can use: Brit, BritNat, Unionist, Nat, Nationalist, WeeGreenNat, Yesser, Noer...

[Keith_M]

Surely you can't call Chinese burns by that name in this day and age?!?


It's a term that came from some practitioners of martial arts.

When you throw somebody and hold their arm, they sometimes get a 'burn' mark on their skin. A number of martial arts are from China, ergo it's called a Chinese Burn.


Allegedly :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Flagrant breach of copyright! See you in court!

Do you prefer:

Here we go no
Here we go no
Here we go no!
Here we go no
Here we go no
Here we go no-o-o!

:na na:

[Glory Lurker]

You're Carmine Lupertazzi

Can I safely Google that? :-)

[Keith_M]

Can I safely Google that? :-)


Noooooo!!!!!!


:paranoid:

[Glory Lurker]

Do you prefer:

Here we go no
Here we go no
Here we go no!
Here we go no
Here we go no
Here we go no-o-o!

:na na:

Disgusting. Doesn't even remotely scan :-)

[Glory Lurker]

Noooooo!!!!!!


:paranoid:

Thanks!!!!

[Smartie]

Yoon is pejorative and clearly meant to be. Anyone using that term can usually be pretty accurately diagnosed as coming from within the ranks of the SNP or so close to that position as being indistinguishable. It's also a convenient shorthand for Unionist, but still pejorative all the same.

Snazi or whatever is much more than pejorative, it is actively offensive for the reasons I'll mention below relating to Gordon Brown. If you want to assert that Nationalists, or a subset, have fascist tendencies then the term 'fascist' is available which would no doubt provoke huge argument but is at least not quite as emotionally loaded as Snazi (is it Snazi or Snatzi?). Fascist in political outlook is very different from being sympathetic to the aims and actions of the Nazis. In any event I can honestly say I've never come across it before in almost 40 years of being very politically active, I don't like it and its also a bit crap. Just from a political discussion point of view, never mind the offensiveness of Snazi I'd put it and people who use it in the same box of w4nkers as those who use terms such as Liebour, Tony Bliar, etc. Just naff and doesn't really work as dog whistle messaging.

Nippy, Magic Grandad, Jimmy Krankie, Bottler Brown, Attila the Hen and whatever Keir Starmer is called etc I have less of a problem with. That's part and parcel of politics in taking something personal and magnifying it.

Quite some time ago now I took great exception to some posters on here describing Gordon Brown as a quisling for the perfectly sensible reason that Vidkun Quisling was a collaborator with and enabler of the Nazis whose actions helped to see Jews murdered in concentration camps. Describing Gordon in that way was as stupid and disgusting as it was historically incoherent and I would suggest that is true here in the SNP or Nationalist context too.

It's not like we're short of a range of other terms we can use: Brit, BritNat, Unionist, Nat, Nationalist, WeeGreenNat, Yesser, Noer...

I've used Quisling in the past without appreciating the gravity of what it's use suggests and totally accept that it was out of order to do so.

When you mention "collaborator and enabler" though - it would be nice of there were a milder, less offensive yet still offensive enough alternative. We can all probably think of examples where we've been disgusted by a perceived collaborator/ enabler. Sometimes I think Quisling is used like this, without full understanding of the strength of the insult, in the absence of a suitable alternative.

[One Day Soon]

Disgusting. Doesn't even remotely scan :-)

How about "We're not Yessing anymore, we're not Ye-e-e-ssing any-more..."

I mean, I'm trying to be helpful here.

[Glory Lurker]

How about "We're not Yessing anymore, we're not Ye-e-e-ssing any-more..."

I mean, I'm trying to be helpful here.

Cheerio
Cheerio
Cheerio!
Cheerio
Cheerio
Cheerio-o-o!

:-)

[One Day Soon]

I've used Quisling in the past without appreciating the gravity of what it's use suggests and totally accept that it was out of order to do so.

When you mention "collaborator and enabler" though - it would be nice of there were a milder, less offensive yet still offensive enough alternative. We can all probably think of examples where we've been disgusted by a perceived collaborator/ enabler. Sometimes I think Quisling is used like this, without full understanding of the strength of the insult, in the absence of a suitable alternative.

You're spot on, it absolutely is used without that intent or understanding as well as being used by some others with exactly that level of abuse in mind. There's always turncoat, traitor, sellout, etc. I'll try to think of worse you could use!

[CropleyWasGod]

Can I safely Google that? :-)

You know you want to.

[McD]

And there are many thousands of Unionists like myself, who are socialist left wing Labour supporters who abhor the right wing and those sort of disgusting idiots. The term Nazi is taken from the German word for Nationalism and I first read that Snazi term in an article years ago about the SNP leader of that time when he was interned. That of course does not make it right, however and I stand by original point if derogatory terms are being used then it opens up a can of worms. Perhaps an admin may wish to make a ruling on the term.....happy to delete all my posts containing the term on whatever they decide



i was taught at school the the word ‘nazi’ is an abbreviation of 2 words, national and socialist, a deliberate political ploy to appeal to many among the German public all along the political spectrum, as a way to seek and gain political power as the party rose up

[McD]

Calling a Unionist a Yoon is no better or worse than calling A Scottish Nationalist a Nat. Both are mere abbreviations. Calling A Scottish Nationalist a Snazi is like calling a Unionist a Flute playing, Catholic hating bigot. But I'm sure you know that.

BTW, Nazi is the German abbreviation for National Socialist.


beat me to it :greengrin

[Future17]

Yoon is pejorative and clearly meant to be. Anyone using that term can usually be pretty accurately diagnosed as coming from within the ranks of the SNP or so close to that position as being indistinguishable. It's also a convenient shorthand for Unionist, but still pejorative all the same.

Snazi or whatever is much more than pejorative, it is actively offensive for the reasons I'll mention below relating to Gordon Brown. If you want to assert that Nationalists, or a subset, have fascist tendencies then the term 'fascist' is available which would no doubt provoke huge argument but is at least not quite as emotionally loaded as Snazi (is it Snazi or Snatzi?). Fascist in political outlook is very different from being sympathetic to the aims and actions of the Nazis. In any event I can honestly say I've never come across it before in almost 40 years of being very politically active, I don't like it and its also a bit crap. Just from a political discussion point of view, never mind the offensiveness of Snazi I'd put it and people who use it in the same box of w4nkers as those who use terms such as Liebour, Tony Bliar, etc. Just naff and doesn't really work as dog whistle messaging.

Nippy, Magic Grandad, Jimmy Krankie, Bottler Brown, Attila the Hen and whatever Keir Starmer is called etc I have less of a problem with. That's part and parcel of politics in taking something personal and magnifying it.

Quite some time ago now I took great exception to some posters on here describing Gordon Brown as a quisling for the perfectly sensible reason that Vidkun Quisling was a collaborator with and enabler of the Nazis whose actions helped to see Jews murdered in concentration camps. Describing Gordon in that way was as stupid and disgusting as it was historically incoherent and I would suggest that is true here in the SNP or Nationalist context too.

It's not like we're short of a range of other terms we can use: Brit, BritNat, Unionist, Nat, Nationalist, WeeGreenNat, Yesser, Noer...

The "quisling" point is an interesting one as it's officially entered the lexicon as a term which isn't defined solely by its link to Quisling himself.

[Moulin Yarns]

Would the correct term be jazzysnazzysnazi or snazzyjazzysnazi? Which adjective takes priority?

Bizarrely, I have a CD by a band called the Jazzyfatnastees. Title of the CD is The Once and Future

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBCILRZPGfs

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201116/34edacfd78a033e6c0e2c2a6f3e3b943.jpg


Boris Johnson on a zoom call to Tory mp’s tonight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201116/34edacfd78a033e6c0e2c2a6f3e3b943.jpg


Boris Johnson on a zoom call to Tory mp’s tonight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few weeks ago it was reported they were looking for issues and subjects upon which to fight any independence debates.

Add "Blair's Biggest Mistake" into the mix when the subject is broached in the media.

Snazy catch-phrase - right in there with "Nice to see you to see you, NICE!" and "She knows y'know".

BTW Think about Blairs tenure and try to imagine something worse than devolving democratic powers to areas of the UK.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1328443601626542081?s=19

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[GlesgaeHibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201116/34edacfd78a033e6c0e2c2a6f3e3b943.jpg


Boris Johnson on a zoom call to Tory mp’s tonight.


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Not surprising. Most of the coverage on the Internal Market Bill centred on it breaking international law. Another major aspect though is that it will seriously undermine devolution through mutual recognition for goods and services. Ie if a lesser standard of regulation applies elsewhere in the UK, then the provider of the good or service can choose to follow those standards rather than those required by legislation passed by the Scottish Parliament. Their actions just now show they have utter contempt for devolution.

That's why I find it surprising that the SNP aren't debating alternative plans for independence at their conference. Winning the election in May, and asking Boris for a s30, but only to be told no leaves us exactly where we are just now. And the SNP know that's exactly what will happen.

[G B Young]

A few weeks ago it was reported they were looking for issues and subjects upon which to fight any independence debates.

Add "Blair's Biggest Mistake" into the mix when the subject is broached in the media.

Snazy catch-phrase - right in there with "Nice to see you to see you, NICE!" and "She knows y'know".

BTW Think about Blairs tenure and try to imagine something worse than devolving democratic powers to areas of the UK.

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

[DaveF]

..to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

You have just described the conservatives and Brexit. Or would you disagree?

[stoneyburn hibs]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.


Wow !

[Hibrandenburg]

Robert Jenrick moaning about the Rise of Nationalism in Scotland. Tories don't do irony do they?

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish Parliament has exposed how differently parts of the UK are treated by the UK govt.


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[Moulin Yarns]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

The mediocrity of the opposition parties is one of the reasons why the SNP has been in government for so long.

[Mon Dieu4]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

Or devolution has been such a success, free further education, free prescriptions, anti bedroom tax, anti trident and anti Brexit that half of Scotland see the possibilites if we go the whole hog

People vote for the SNP, the way folk go on you would think they wandered in and just seized power

[Ozyhibby]

The mediocrity of the opposition parties is one of the reasons why the SNP has been in government for so long.

That’s deliberate as well. The unionist parties don’t value the Scottish Parliament and so send their best talent to London.
How many of the talented Labour politicians at Westminster in 1999 returned to Holyrood? Not many. It’s why we ended up with the likes of Jack McConnel. The SNP on the other hand embraced the new parliament and put their best people there.
Even now, Ruth Davidson can’t wait to get herself down to London and enter the unelected Lords where she will close close to the TV studios to earn herself some nice appearance fees.


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[The Modfather]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

Sounds very much like Brexit and Westminster to be honest.

[Bostonhibby]

A few weeks ago it was reported they were looking for issues and subjects upon which to fight any independence debates.

Add "Blair's Biggest Mistake" into the mix when the subject is broached in the media.

Snazy catch-phrase - right in there with "Nice to see you to see you, NICE!" and "She knows y'know".

BTW Think about Blairs tenure and try to imagine something worse than devolving democratic powers to areas of the UK.Cummings spent his last couple of weeks with a big drawing pad and crayons writing Bozo a bible of 3 word catch phrases, this is one of them.

Watch this space in the coming months as the pressure builds to distract the electorate from issues like where's Boris? Public inquiry into Covid, Brexit delivery etc....

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[lapsedhibee]

Watch this space in the coming months as the pressure builds to distract the electorate from issues like where's Boris? Public inquiry into Covid, Brexit delivery etc....

... when "Stanley's Biggest Mistake" will be trending on Twatter.

[Keith_M]

'One Tory MP on the Zoom call, who said Johnson labelled MPs in the NRG his “praetorian guard”, told the Guardian: “[Johnson] was on fantastic form, he took the entire meeting standing up. He was very animated, bouncy." '


Four More Years!!

[Kato]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

A platform for the SNP which they took to democratically. The fact that it is unchallenged is down to the lack of talent and political acumen from Labour and the Tories, something mirrored in Westminster. Scotland and the rest of the UK is already divided by history. If that is broadening and the SNP are capitalising on it it can hardly be seen as them stoking division. For a lot of people who now want independence it's a reluctant and sad decision they are making.

The most divisive party is in power in the UK already and has been for over a decade. They have devided the nation in monetary and political terms with the ideology of austerity, in which the rich have got way, way richer, as well as the flag waving idiocy that is Brexit.

Their myopic projects and short term policy making with one eye on the next days optics have led to the SNP getting stronger, the SNP don't need to stoke anything when the fuel is coming from down south. The relentless division has come from the Little Englanders and their swallowing of an ancient view of themselves which just doesn't stack up in the modern world.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/akmaciver/status/1328618260972101632?s=21

This thread makes a good point but it doesnt matter because it will never happen.


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[Kato]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/09/campaigners-attack-boris-johnson-for-eu-nationals-remarks

Can you find any rhetoric from Nicola Sturgeon which resembles this?

A clear attack on on individuals who have decided to make the UK their home.

If you can, then we can maybe discuss "stoking division".

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[marinello59]

That’s deliberate as well. The unionist parties don’t value the Scottish Parliament and so send their best talent to London.
How many of the talented Labour politicians at Westminster in 1999 returned to Holyrood? Not many. It’s why we ended up with the likes of Jack McConnel. The SNP on the other hand embraced the new parliament and put their best people there.
Even now, Ruth Davidson can’t wait to get herself down to London and enter the unelected Lords where she will close close to the TV studios to earn herself some nice appearance fees.


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Given the paucity of talent on the SNP front bench at Holyrood I hope for their sake that's not true.:greengrin Surely Joanna Cherry would be more competent than the likes of Swinney and Freeman?

Boris is right, devolution has been a disaster but only for the Tories chances of holding the Union together. He's playing a blinder as far as I'm concerned, his remarks will have added a few more to the Yes side. :thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/akmaciver/status/1328618260972101632?s=21

This thread makes a good point but it doesnt matter because it will never happen.


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Even if there was anything like the political will in London necessary to implement a federal solution (and there definitely isn't), nobody has come up with anything approaching a workable plan to start from.

The time to think about this was 20 years ago, the ship has long sailed since.

[marinello59]

Even if there was anything like the political will in London necessary to implement a federal solution (and there definitely isn't), nobody has come up with anything approaching a workable plan to start from.

The time to think about this was 20 years ago, the ship has long sailed since.

Yeap.

[Ozyhibby]

Even if there was anything like the political will in London necessary to implement a federal solution (and there definitely isn't), nobody has come up with anything approaching a workable plan to start from.

The time to think about this was 20 years ago, the ship has long sailed since.

100% agree, I just posted because it shows why independence is the only way forward. They can never agree to any solution that has a chance of working.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Given the paucity of talent on the SNP front bench at Holyrood I hope for their sake that's not true.:greengrin Surely Joanna Cherry would be more competent than the likes of Swinney and Freeman?

Boris is right, devolution has been a disaster but only for the Tories chances of holding the Union together. He's playing a blinder as far as I'm concerned, his remarks will have added a few more to the Yes side. :thumbsup:

It's not true now, but it was up until 2015 and contrasted strongly with Labour where anyone with ambition was desperate to get out of Holyrood and off to the "real parliament" down the road.
In 2015, the SNP suddenly had an influx of talent attracted by the indyref and nowhere to put them so they were given westminster seats to fight. They really need to relocate the Cherrys, Whitfords, Thewlisses to Holyrood asap, where some fresh competence is very much needed.

[SHODAN]

All the cronies trying to defend Johnson this morning are somehow making it worse, it's amazing. Redwood just said our Brexit vote in 2016 was "irrelevant".

[Ozyhibby]

It's not true now, but it was up until 2015 and contrasted strongly with Labour where anyone with ambition was desperate to get out of Holyrood and off to the "real parliament" down the road.
In 2015, the SNP suddenly had an influx of talent attracted by the indyref and nowhere to put them so they were given westminster seats to fight. They really need to relocate the Cherrys, Whitfords, Thewlisses to Holyrood asap, where some fresh competence is very much needed.

They need to want to go as well though. Only one mp did so this time out.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/blundering-boris-will-regret-insulting-scotland/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Kato]

"If he was twice as capable, he’d still be only half as good as a Prime Minister should be."

Understatement.

In a couple of years, once Brexit has bitten a large chunk out the country and Covid bill has been handed onto those without the wherewithal to evade their taxes he'll be seen as an evil buffoon.

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[DaveF]

Has anyone seen GB Young 😲 (appreciate he may be working and never normally ducks these things 🙂)

[Smartie]

This must be a very strange time for the SNP.

Should they say something, should they say nothing?

The people they oppose, who should be making salient points and firm arguments in defence of the union are doing all of their work for them.

Tony Blair's biggest mistake - devolution or the Iraq war?

What are the Scottish people more likely to think?

More to the point, what are the people who still favour the union likely to think? What are those who remain on that side yet are most likely to swither think?

**** me, the man is absolutely hopeless. He can't obey his own rules on covid to the extent that he can't avoid ending up housebound during the next 2 - essential - weeks of Brexit negotiations (I go for the imbecile over machiavellian genius line here).

An interesting point might be made about the coronavirus crisis not being devolution's finest hour. It has exposed inconsistencies and difficulties in a situation where every option - full power at Westminster, devolution and full independence for Scotland have their imperfections.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201117/fcb28dd8e534c9da09afb0b2811314f8.jpg
Made me giggle.[emoji3]


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[JimBHibees]

As you say it was far from Blair's biggest mistake. Devolution was warmly embraced by a sizeable majority of Scots (myself included) but I imagine he envisaged it strengthening the Union by diluting the separatist agenda. The fact it's ended up providing a platform for the SNP to stoke a relentless agenda of division (while providing mediocre but largely unchallenged governance) is the true disaster.

Thought the comedy clubs were closed at the moment.

[G B Young]

Has anyone seen GB Young 😲 (appreciate he may be working and never normally ducks these things 🙂)

Got back from work a couple of hours ago but was more interested in the Coronavirus thread :wink:

I don't think I have much to 'duck' on this thread. I'm in the minority to put it mildly so hardly expected any ringing endorsements of my viewpoint!

[The Harp Awakes]

This must be a very strange time for the SNP.

Should they say something, should they say nothing?

The people they oppose, who should be making salient points and firm arguments in defence of the union are doing all of their work for them.

Tony Blair's biggest mistake - devolution or the Iraq war?

What are the Scottish people more likely to think?

More to the point, what are the people who still favour the union likely to think? What are those who remain on that side yet are most likely to swither think?

**** me, the man is absolutely hopeless. He can't obey his own rules on covid to the extent that he can't avoid ending up housebound during the next 2 - essential - weeks of Brexit negotiations (I go for the imbecile over machiavellian genius line here).

An interesting point might be made about the coronavirus crisis not being devolution's finest hour. It has exposed inconsistencies and difficulties in a situation where every option - full power at Westminster, devolution and full independence for Scotland have their imperfections.

The Scottish Government/SNP should continue to focus on the pandemic and leave Boris to fall into his self-imposed bear traps. When May is closer, and hopefully with the pandemic easing, the SNP should then come out double barrelled campaigning on a platform for another independence referendum, making it clear that if they win the Holyrood election comfortably, then the requirement to hold one will be undeniable.

[JeMeSouviens]

In case anyone was tempted to believe the pitiful spin that Johnson was complaining about the SNP specifically rather than devolution in general - here's what he wrote when Unionist Labour were in control.



Scots can build Jerusalem, but not with English money
By Boris Johnson
01 February 2001

OCH aye, it's the New Jerusalem! It's a land of milk and honey they're building up there in Scotland, laddie. They'll nae be doing with your horrid Anglo-Saxon devil-take-the-hindmost approach. No, they're just more socialist than us sour-mouthed Sassenachs.

They want to spend on the puir wee students, provided, of course, that they are poor wee Scottish students, not English ones. They want to shame the tightwads in the Treasury by spending on the puir wee Scottish teachers - in fact, they've given them a pay rise of 21.5 per cent over the next three years, far more than the English teachers are getting. And now, just to show how much generally nicer they are than the English, they have decided to spend, spend, spend on the puir wee old folks who need someone to help them open a can of beans.

In the teeth of opposition from the Treasury of what is still laughably called the United Kingdom, the Scots have decided to pay for free personal care for the elderly. Yes, that means all of us, folks. Even if we have assets of more than £16,000, we will be entitled not just to free nursing care - changing our dressings, putting our drips in - but to everything connoted by "personal care".

If we are so lucky as to live in Scotland, it won't matter that we could well afford to pay for someone to run our baths, or tie our shoes. There'll be none of that business about reaching for our own wallets. Not in Scotland, Jimmy.

Under proposals just adopted by the devolved Scottish executive, and actively promoted by Henry McLeish, Labour's new Top Jock, First Minister of Scotland and successor to Donald Dewar, the state will not only carry the can for the richest in society, but will also open it and heat up the contents while you relax in front of the television.

The better off 50 per cent of the Scottish population has hitherto been used to paying towards personal care. Not any more. It's going to be universally free. Isn't the Scottish social conscience just grandy and dandy, as Peter McKay would say? It is, in a way, and it's also insanely expensive.

If we tried it in England, the spending limits of both Labour and Tories would be blown to oblivion. The Labour peer Lord Lipsey has spent the past three weeks desperately trying to knock some sense into Scottish Labour.

Free personal care is expected to cost an extra £110 million in the first year but he prophesies that its very free-ness will lead to an explosion in demand. It won't be long, he says, before the bill could be 12 times that much, more than £1 billion. He went on the radio, and he tried to tell the Scottish Labour voters that the Dutch had tried such a scheme in 1968, and that it was so fantastically expensive that they had to scrap it in 1980. He tried to tell them that the solution being proposed by the Tories - to encourage private insurance schemes - was really rather sensible.

I think you will agree that it was brave of an English Labour peer, in Scotland, to commend a Tory free market policy.

And how do you think they responded to his advice? Do you think they liked it? Apparently not. They took umbrage at any suggestion that the English should have a view of the matter at all. On one radio phone-in, David Lipsey told me, a man shouted: "I'll nae take any lessons from Lipsey! He should go back south where he belongs."

Which on the face of it might be a fair enough response to English meddling, except for one trifling matter which we have not yet mentioned. In all the discussion about this nirvana, where Scottish students, and Scottish teachers, and Scottish old folks are surrounded from cradle to grave by red-rose-petal-stuffed cushions, we have not yet raised the issue of who is paying. If Scotland were wholly independent, it would simply be the poorer Scots who were paying, in their taxes, so that richer Scots could have free personal care. As it is, it is we, the English, who are paying yet again so that the Scots can have a benefit we are not able to afford for the United Kingdom as a whole. The decision by McLeish, which London cannot resist, is a scandal and a disgrace, which shows just how muddle-headed Blair was when he launched devolution.

Under the Scottish Block Grant for 2002, the six million Scots will receive £20 billion from the English. Work out for yourselves how much each English family is transferring to each Scottish family; and work out what those English will feel when they finally grasp that - under devolution - they are paying for the Scots to have perks the English cannot afford themselves. The Scots are grossly over-represented at Westminster in the sense that each Scottish MP has 54,000 electors, and each English MP has 69,000. All 75 Scottish MPs voted, as one, to ban foxhunting in England and Wales, and yet they snarl at us not to take an interest in their luxurious provision for the elderly.

The Cabinet is rigid with Scots, and Mandy's departure has made way for another, John Reid; and yet Scottish universities now blatantly discriminate against English students. How can it help the Union, if, as the figures show, there has been a catastrophic decline in Scottish students applying to study in England, and English students applying to study in Scotland?

Devolution is causing all the strains that its opponents predicted, and in allowing the Scots to make their own laws, while free-riding on English taxpayers, it is simply unjust. The time will come when the Scots will discover that their personal care for the elderly is too expensive, and they will come, cap in hand to Uncle Sugar in London. And when they do, I propose that we tell them to hop it.

[lapsedhibee]

In case anyone was tempted to believe the pitiful spin that Johnson was complaining about the SNP specifically rather than devolution in general - here's what he wrote when Unionist Labour were in control.

Was he still at primary school in 2001, or is there another explanation for that article?

[Moulin Yarns]

In case anyone was tempted to believe the pitiful spin that Johnson was complaining about the SNP specifically rather than devolution in general - here's what he wrote when Unionist Labour were in control.

Well spotted.

[allmodcons]

In case anyone was tempted to believe the pitiful spin that Johnson was complaining about the SNP specifically rather than devolution in general - here's what he wrote when Unionist Labour were in control.

He really is just a horrible Tory ****. How anyone in Scotland can vote for a party with a leader as anti Scottish as him just beggars belief.

If we are ever 'permitted' to hold another Independence referendum whilst he is PM this piece should be plastered all over social media.

A horrible excuse for a human being.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/11/how-save-united-kingdom

Gordon Brown with a plan for saving the union that is even less likely to be delivered than independence. He knows it’s dysfunctional but he still supports it no matter what.


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[Jack]

He really is just a horrible Tory ****. How anyone in Scotland can vote for a party with a leader as anti Scottish as him just beggars belief.

If we are ever 'permitted' to hold another Independence referendum whilst he is PM this piece should be plastered all over social media.

A horrible excuse for a human being.

There's many more like him, not just in the tory party, with a similar view of Scotland. There's a Westminster bubble that view the Jocks with utter contempt.

[Kato]

He really is just a horrible Tory ****. How anyone in Scotland can vote for a party with a leader as anti Scottish as him just beggars belief.

If we are ever 'permitted' to hold another Independence referendum whilst he is PM this piece should be plastered all over social media.

A horrible excuse for a human being.

The childish stereotyping is beyond just mere poor behaviour.

Imagine the outrage if it was Corbyn writing about jewish people, [well Tories aren't actually outraged at anti-semitism within Labour, they just use it as a tool to get at them.]

[Hibbyradge]

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1328742327163228163?s=09

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scotland-cant-afford-to-remain-part-of-the-union/amp?__twitter_impression=true

This must surely be a first? A pro Indy piece in the Spectator?


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[G B Young]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/11/how-save-united-kingdom

Gordon Brown with a plan for saving the union that is even less likely to be delivered than independence. He knows it’s dysfunctional but he still supports it no matter what.


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I've always had a lot of time for Gordon Brown and thought he got a raw deal when he finally got the No 10 gig just as the Blair premiership was starting to fall apart. He certainly played a key role in helping to preserve the Union in 2014 with a passionate speech that was widely credited with making up the minds of waverers to vote no.

He was on Sky this morning and spoke very well, along similar lines to what he outlines in that New Statesman piece (much of which I agree with). What struck me was what a fair-minded, likeable and intelligent bloke he is for a politician.

[Berwickhibby]

:rules:
I've always had a lot of time for Gordon Brown and thought he got a raw deal when he finally got the No 10 gig just as the Blair premiership was starting to fall apart. He certainly played a key role in helping to preserve the Union in 2014 with a passionate speech that was widely credited with making up the minds of waverers to vote no.

He was on Sky this morning and spoke very well, along similar lines to what he outlines in that New Statesman piece (much of which I agree with). What struck me was what a fair-minded, likeable and intelligent bloke he is for a politician.

:rules:: now now Mr Young...you cannot be calling a Former Labour Prime Minister fair minded and intelligent :greengrin:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I've always had a lot of time for Gordon Brown and thought he got a raw deal when he finally got the No 10 gig just as the Blair premiership was starting to fall apart. He certainly played a key role in helping to preserve the Union in 2014 with a passionate speech that was widely credited with making up the minds of waverers to vote no.

He was on Sky this morning and spoke very well, along similar lines to what he outlines in that New Statesman piece (much of which I agree with). What struck me was what a fair-minded, likeable and intelligent bloke he is for a politician.

along with the 'Lie' on the front page of the Daily Record?

Gordon Brown, like Nigel Farage, is on TV and radio much more than his status warrants.

[weecounty hibby]

Brown was a liar back in 2014 when he was standing alongside the Tories promising something that was out with his powers to give. Through the passage of time he has less influence now than he had then. He has nothing to offer and nothing new to bring to the table.

[Moulin Yarns]

Brown was a liar back in 2014 when he was standing alongside the Tories promising something that was out with his powers to give. Through the passage of time he has less influence now than he had then. He has nothing to offer and nothing new to bring to the table.

Funny that? No response from the Yoonionists :wink: on here since it was raised.

[Berwickhibby]

Funny that? No response from the Yoonionists :wink: on here since it was raised.

To busy reading Nippy's latest on travel :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Funny that? No response from the Yoonionists :wink: on here since it was raised.

I am not a unionist and certainly not a nationalist. But Gordon Brown is serious and intellectual and brings ‘far more to the table’ than his petty detractors on here.

[Peevemor]

I am not a unionist and certainly not a nationalist. But Gordon Brown is serious and intellectual and brings ‘far more to the table’ than his petty detractors on here.

Gordon Brown is irrelevant and the "vow", which wasn't his to give, was a lie.

[Mibbes Aye]

Gordon Brown is irrelevant and the "vow", which wasn't his to give, was a lie.

That doesn’t really respond to my post in any fashion. But I remember how bitter you were after 2014’s result so I will cut you some slack :greengrin

[Peevemor]

That doesn’t really respond to my post in any fashion. But I remember how bitter you were after 2014’s result so I will cut you some slack :greengrin

Just my observation that whatever he chooses to "bring to the table" these days counts for the square root of bog all.

[weecounty hibby]

I am not a unionist and certainly not a nationalist. But Gordon Brown is serious and intellectual and brings ‘far more to the table’ than his petty detractors on here.
You're right but then I'm an anonymous voice in a sub section of a football forum. He on the other hand is one of the biggest liars ever and continues to be so while the unionist media allows him to. He has nothing to bring to the table, nothing! He has nothing new, he regurgitates the same old BS that sadly some believed in 2014, BS that has been completely trashed by the PMs comments of this week. Aye but he's a unionist and came fae Kirkcaldy and he's awfy clever so we need to listen to him.🙄 Let's not forget that he was the chancellor who allowed the banks to self regulate and then when they took the piss he was the man who bailed them out to the tune of billions

[Mibbes Aye]

Just my observation that whatever he chooses to "bring to the table" these days counts for the square root of bog all.

Which in some weird mathematical way counts for far more than some random petty detractors on here.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not a unionist and certainly not a nationalist. But Gordon Brown is serious and intellectual and brings ‘far more to the table’ than his petty detractors on here.

That has fair cheered me up. :faf:

So much to say about the first sentence :wink:

If GB is serious and intellectual then so is Nigel.

GB is a failed Chancellor, failed Prime Minister and should not be taken seriously anywhere. I do not know why he is given so much media time, unless he has a book to sell?

[Peevemor]

Which in some weird mathematical way counts for far more than some random petty detractors on here.

I'm not sure about that, as we know that his word is less than worthless.

[weecounty hibby]

Which in some weird mathematical way counts for far more than some random petty detractors on here.
What precisely is he bringing to the table at the moment. He is an ex MP and ex PM who is proposing the same thing he promised in 2014. That wasn't delivered as the vow was a lie. Also as I said the PMs comments this week show exactly where Westminster thinks Scotland should be and that is not with extended powers thus showing Brown up to be promising/proposing once again something he cannot ever deliver and never could. He was a Tory patsy in 2014 and once again looks like that again

[Hibrandenburg]

:rules:

:rules:: now now Mr Young...you cannot be calling a Former Labour Prime Minister fair minded and intelligent :greengrin:greengrin

At least we now know what the GB stands for :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

What Brown proposes is fantasy stuff. He talks of a union that does not exist and that nobody in power is offering, including himself when he was in power. It’s completely nonsensical. He is best ignored these days if he is just going to talk of worlds that don’t exist.


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[Smartie]

Gordon Brown isn't someone who should be dismissed easily, but I do feel that from being very relevant in 2014 he has drifted into being something of yesterday's man.

His time was a long time pre Brexit, pre coronavirus, pre Trump, pre all the problems the world faces today.

I do feel that the case for the union should be better put forward by someone who would continue to have to experience the consequences of either independence of the continued union. I'd much rather hear debate from people who actually have a degree of accountability in the delivery of a successful post-Brexit UK than someone who is probably only going to chunter away in the background, giving the odd talk or maybe writing the odd book.

[Ozyhibby]

I've always had a lot of time for Gordon Brown and thought he got a raw deal when he finally got the No 10 gig just as the Blair premiership was starting to fall apart. He certainly played a key role in helping to preserve the Union in 2014 with a passionate speech that was widely credited with making up the minds of waverers to vote no.

He was on Sky this morning and spoke very well, along similar lines to what he outlines in that New Statesman piece (much of which I agree with). What struck me was what a fair-minded, likeable and intelligent bloke he is for a politician.

What he promised in 2014 never happened which is why he is mocked now.
And he was more than a little responsible for the Blair premiership falling apart so I have no sympathy there.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Gordon Brown isn't someone who should be dismissed easily, but I do feel that from being very relevant in 2014 he has drifted into being something of yesterday's man.

His time was a long time pre Brexit, pre coronavirus, pre Trump, pre all the problems the world faces today.

I do feel that the case for the union should be better put forward by someone who would continue to have to experience the consequences of either independence of the continued union. I'd much rather hear debate from people who actually have a degree of accountability in the delivery of a successful post-Brexit UK than someone who is probably only going to chunter away in the background, giving the odd talk or maybe writing the odd book.

After 2014 the unionists would be wise to keep him locked away in a closet somewhere. He lost all credibility after his "vow". Getting him to argue the case for the union would be like getting Anne Widdecombe advertising for Anne Summers.

[weecounty hibby]

After 2014 the unionists would be wise to keep him locked away in a closet somewhere. He lost all credibility after his "vow". Getting him to argue the case for the union would be like getting Anne Widdecombe advertising for Anne Summers.

Too far, too far!! 🤮🤮🤮

[JeMeSouviens]

Gordon Brown isn't someone who should be dismissed easily, but I do feel that from being very relevant in 2014 he has drifted into being something of yesterday's man.

His time was a long time pre Brexit, pre coronavirus, pre Trump, pre all the problems the world faces today.

I do feel that the case for the union should be better put forward by someone who would continue to have to experience the consequences of either independence of the continued union. I'd much rather hear debate from people who actually have a degree of accountability in the delivery of a successful post-Brexit UK than someone who is probably only going to chunter away in the background, giving the odd talk or maybe writing the odd book.

Agree with this.

He's a complex character but I think you need to view his contribution to the Scottish constitutional debate through the prism of his motivations. He spent decades making Labour electable in the UK so that New Labour could transform Britain. Their record might be patchy but is not without significant achievement and it is (I think) unarguable that Britain was in a much better place in 2007 than it was in 97. He has of course, subsequently seen this completely trashed by a succession of Etonian clowns. "Losing" Scotland from the UK would mean saying goodbye forever to those 50 odd Labour seats where he still clings on to the hope they might get back. To restore what he sees as his legacy, he must first stop Scotland departing and hence ever more desperate federal fantasies.

[Moulin Yarns]

Agree with this.

He's a complex character but I think you need to view his contribution to the Scottish constitutional debate through the prism of his motivations. He spent decades making Labour electable in the UK so that New Labour could transform Britain. Their record might be patchy but is not without significant achievement and it is (I think) unarguable that Britain was in a much better place in 2007 than it was in 97. He has of course, subsequently seen this completely trashed by a succession of Etonian clowns. "Losing" Scotland from the UK would mean saying goodbye forever to those 50 odd Labour seats where he still clings on to the hope they might get back. To restore what he sees as his legacy, he must first stop Scotland departing and hence ever more desperate federal fantasies.

You were doing so well up to the point of the 50 odd labour seats. 😁They are lost forever. 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm wondering what happened to the endorsement of Gordon brown?

Is he still front runner to lead the 'hoping we are still better together if you do what you are told' campaign?

[ronaldo7]

I'm wondering what happened to the endorsement of Gordon brown?

Is he still front runner to lead the 'hoping we are still better together if you do what you are told' campaign?

Colour me purple.

Old dinosaur thinks old dinosaur is relevant in Scotland today.

[SHODAN]

Gordon Brown also advocated that the UK adopt draconian measures for migrants to win back Brexit voters following the referendum.

I don't think he in any way speaks for Scotland. He certainly doesn't for me.

[allmodcons]

After 2014 the unionists would be wise to keep him locked away in a closet somewhere. He lost all credibility after his "vow". Getting him to argue the case for the union would be like getting Anne Widdecombe advertising for Anne Summers.

:hilarious:hilarious

[JeMeSouviens]

You were doing so well up to the point of the 50 odd labour seats. ��They are lost forever. ��

I was channeling my inner Broon. :wink:

Seriously though, all UK labour types (including our own ODS) still think they're just about to overcome the nat blip. :greengrin

eg, Keir Starmer just a couple of months ago:


"I'll be perfectly open about this. There's no route back for Labour that doesn't run through Scotland. We have to start winning in Scotland."

I don't think they mostly oppose Indy because they think it would be bad for Scotland (except ODS on this point) but because their sole focus is on what it means for Labour.

[G B Young]

At least we now know what the GB stands for :wink:

:greengrin

[G B Young]

Gordon Brown isn't someone who should be dismissed easily, but I do feel that from being very relevant in 2014 he has drifted into being something of yesterday's man.

His time was a long time pre Brexit, pre coronavirus, pre Trump, pre all the problems the world faces today.

I do feel that the case for the union should be better put forward by someone who would continue to have to experience the consequences of either independence of the continued union. I'd much rather hear debate from people who actually have a degree of accountability in the delivery of a successful post-Brexit UK than someone who is probably only going to chunter away in the background, giving the odd talk or maybe writing the odd book.

Agree with most of that and the reply JMS has made to your post. I seem to recall that the remain side brought him on board in 2016 to try and repeat his anti-independence speech and even though it was just a couple of years later it all felt a bit tired.

However, while I don't think he'd be the right guy to put the case for the union this these days I think the vitriol directed at him by some on here is way off the mark. As JMS has said he's a complex character but one whose intellect is one of the most formidable around and he's a politician whose heart I've always felt was in the right place. Not something you could say with certainty about many.

[marinello59]

Gordon Brown also advocated that the UK adopt draconian measures for migrants to win back Brexit voters following the referendum.

I don't think he in any way speaks for Scotland. He certainly doesn't for me.

He may not speak for you and he certainly isn't speaking to you. He is addressing the approximately 45% of Scots who still strongly oppose Independence and the unknown %age of soft Yes voters. We can pretend otherwise but to a large number of those people his words still matter given his stature as an ex Prime Minister.
I genuinely think that the only thing standing between us and Independence is our own arrogance and complacency. Dismissing Brown and his words as those of a dinosaur would be an act of supreme folly. It's a well structured piece giving another way forward and can't be dismissed as scaremongering etc. Brown knows he will not be converting hundreds of thousands to his way of thinking, it's not what he is trying to do. The aim here here is to get a third question on to the ballot paper and if that happens then we will have a problem.

[Glory Lurker]

He may not speak for you and he certainly isn't speaking to you. He is addressing the approximately 45% of Scots who still strongly oppose Independence and the unknown %age of soft Yes voters. We can pretend otherwise but to a large number of those people his words still matter given his stature as an ex Prime Minister.
I genuinely think that the only thing standing between us and Independence is our own arrogance and complacency. Dismissing Brown and his words as those of a dinosaur would be an act of supreme folly. It's a well structured piece giving another way forward and can't be dismissed as scaremongering etc. Brown knows he will not be converting hundreds of thousands to his way of thinking, it's not what he is trying to do. The aim here here is to get a third question on to the ballot paper and if that happens then we will have a problem.

Only way a third question would be credible would be if the legislation providing for that settlement had already been passed by Westminster and it was somehow made irrevocable so it could not be overturned pre-commencement. The first hurdle is massive, the second one against the UK constitution. All in all, not a chance a credible third option can be offered in a referendum. The danger in GB is not that he'll get a third option on the paper but that, like 2014, his witterings will make the soft on both sides believe No means something else.

[ronaldo7]

He may not speak for you and he certainly isn't speaking to you. He is addressing the approximately 45% of Scots who still strongly oppose Independence and the unknown %age of soft Yes voters. We can pretend otherwise but to a large number of those people his words still matter given his stature as an ex Prime Minister.
I genuinely think that the only thing standing between us and Independence is our own arrogance and complacency. Dismissing Brown and his words as those of a dinosaur would be an act of supreme folly. It's a well structured piece giving another way forward and can't be dismissed as scaremongering etc. Brown knows he will not be converting hundreds of thousands to his way of thinking, it's not what he is trying to do. The aim here here is to get a third question on to the ballot paper and if that happens then we will have a problem.

The third option was on the ballot paper last time...George Galloway told me so. Super duper devo max.

Big Gordo told me that we'd have near to federalism, and home rule as you can get.

Were they both lying?

[weecounty hibby]

The third question for me is madness. How do you say who wins? So the vote goes A. 33.4% B. 33.3% C. 33.3%. A wins but 66.6% of the electorate don't agree with the decision? To be honest I think that is probably what the unionists who advocate this seem to want, confusion, questionable outcomes etc. They don't really want Devo max just to show some doubts and confusion into the mix

[JeMeSouviens]

He may not speak for you and he certainly isn't speaking to you. He is addressing the approximately 45% of Scots who still strongly oppose Independence and the unknown %age of soft Yes voters. We can pretend otherwise but to a large number of those people his words still matter given his stature as an ex Prime Minister.
I genuinely think that the only thing standing between us and Independence is our own arrogance and complacency. Dismissing Brown and his words as those of a dinosaur would be an act of supreme folly. It's a well structured piece giving another way forward and can't be dismissed as scaremongering etc. Brown knows he will not be converting hundreds of thousands to his way of thinking, it's not what he is trying to do. The aim here here is to get a third question on to the ballot paper and if that happens then we will have a problem.

I doubt very much a 3rd option concrete offer will materialise. Vague waffly stuff about senates isn’t going to cut much ice. Where federal solutions work, all the federal states operate on a common basis. There is no chance of a common basis materialising for federal states in the UK. A hotch potch of nations, regions, cities all structured a bit differently is doomed. It’s the asymmetric nature of the current arrangement that makes it so unstable.

Plus the unaddressed elephant is Brexit. Why sign up to a new wacko UK scheme when we could join the fully functional EU?

I do agree about the complacency and dismissiveness though. Vague waffly stuff might not work in practice but Brexit shows it can win referendums!

[Jack]

It was suggested during the last independence referendum the UK government used underhand cyber tactics to thwart the Yes campaign.

Today Boris announced much increased spending on defence, including a beefed up National Cyber Force.

Will this be used as part of the torys plans to fight the eventual independence referendum?

[lapsedhibee]

Johnson's taken a bit of stick for saying devolution's been a disaster, but you'd have to say the Scottish Parliament and its procedures have been pale imitations of the real thing at Westminster. How many speeches like this (https://twitter.com/i/status/1328780277309730818) have we seen at Holyrood?

[Moulin Yarns]

Need to delete this shortly to avoid a copyright claim 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👋🇬🇧😂 https://t.co/ZMZZd9TzMi


😂😂🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[lucky]

It’s a mistake to under estimate Gordon Brown, he’s no fool and will still carry some weight with voters. It’s a bigger mistake to try and demonise him. Independence will be decided on the issues not personalities. There won’t be a Better Together type organisation this time. Richard Leonard spoke out against in 2014, he saw how damaging it would be to the Labour Party. The independence debate will be decide by the soft No and Yes 20%. Those with strong views on either side have to be very careful how they sell the message to voters. The Vow v Once in a generation debate won’t count for much and will put people off. Positive messaging on our future will win the day.

[Smartie]

It’s a mistake to under estimate Gordon Brown, he’s no fool and will still carry some weight with voters. It’s a bigger mistake to try and demonise him. Independence will be decided on the issues not personalities. There won’t be a Better Together type organisation this time. Richard Leonard spoke out against in 2014, he saw how damaging it would be to the Labour Party. The independence debate will be decide by the soft No and Yes 20%. Those with strong views on either side have to be very careful how they sell the message to voters. The Vow v Once in a generation debate won’t count for much and will put people off. Positive messaging on our future will win the day.

Some fair points in there, but do you see Gordon Brown convincing soft “yes” voters under the age of 35 to vote the other way?

Going forward, all I can see him being successful at is preaching to the converted - over 60, rock solid “no” voters.