Scottish Independence

[Jack]

How the **** does a poll like that get 95%? 😆

You'd be better asking Dominic Cummings.

[Kato]

Not sure what Gove, Neil and Galloway are up to here? The obvious answer is they’ve done some focus grouping or private polling and found a majority for the union among rUK based Scots.

However, given the unsavoury sleekitness of all 3 it may be that it’s an attempt to inject some ugly ethnic nationalism into the debate hoping it’s picked up on both sides. The aim may be to “poison the well” to the extent that the subject of indy becomes a turn off for many?

Given the personnel if they truly wanted to get a No vote they'd get together and announce they won't be having anything to do with the campaigning.

[G B Young]

Given the personnel if they truly wanted to get a No vote they'd get together and announce they won't be having anything to do with the campaigning.

I'm not sure he'd carry the same clout these days but Galloway was a standout performer for the No campaign back in 2014. I caught one of his Just Say Naw tour events and he was genuinely compelling. A great orator on his day no matter what you think of his politics. He also stole the show at the BBC 'big debate' for first time voters where he left Sturgeon looking like an also ran.

[Kato]

I'm not sure he'd carry the same clout these days but Galloway was a standout performer for the No campaign back in 2014. I caught one of his Just Say Naw tour events and he was genuinely compelling. A great orator on his day no matter what you think of his politics. He also stole the show at the BBC 'big debate' for first time voters where he left Sturgeon looking like an also ran.He is a great orator, a bit marmite though. Not sure he sway any converts these days, which according to the polls is what is required.

A curious and strange cat all round.

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[Saturday Boy]

I'm not sure he'd carry the same clout these days but Galloway was a standout performer for the No campaign back in 2014. I caught one of his Just Say Naw tour events and he was genuinely compelling. A great orator on his day no matter what you think of his politics. He also stole the show at the BBC 'big debate' for first time voters where he left Sturgeon looking like an also ran.

Was he dressed as a cat?

[Smartie]

He is a great orator, a bit marmite though. Not sure he sway any converts these days, which according to the polls is what is required.

A curious and strange cat all round.

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I quite like radge George and it disappoints me to be on the opposite side to him on this subject.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-unionists-are-flirting-ethnic-nationalism-long-abandoned-supporters-scottish-independence-joyce-mcmillan-2948632


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-unionists-are-flirting-ethnic-nationalism-long-abandoned-supporters-scottish-independence-joyce-mcmillan-2948632


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A link to the Scotsman? forget it.

[Bristolhibby]

Westminster pulled that ethnic nationalism **** with the EU Referendum - and indeed, every general election - and they will not have their way here.

If you live in Scotland, regardless of where you're from, you have equal enfranchisement to everyone else. We're proud of it. They can **** off.

Indeed. Me and my family Living down here in England absolutely get the point that we don’t get the vote. Why should we? We don’t live in Scotland.

Will still benefit from a Scottish EU passport when it comes.

J

[Peevemor]

Speaking as an expat of 16 years, I feel quite strongly that I shouldn't have a vote. I don't like the idea of voting on something where I no longer live nor pay taxes. It's something for those that live in the country to decide and IMO the criteria were spot on the last time around.

I feel equally strongly that I should have full voting rights here in France, which I currently don't.

[Smartie]

A link to the Scotsman? forget it.

It's a decent read, wherever it came from.

[SHODAN]

I'm not sure he'd carry the same clout these days but Galloway was a standout performer for the No campaign back in 2014. I caught one of his Just Say Naw tour events and he was genuinely compelling. A great orator on his day no matter what you think of his politics. He also stole the show at the BBC 'big debate' for first time voters where he left Sturgeon looking like an also ran.

Galloway is trying his hardest to make me change my mind and believe in horseshoe theory given his recent flirting with the far-right.

[SHODAN]

Indeed. Me and my family Living down here in England absolutely get the point that we don’t get the vote. Why should we? We don’t live in Scotland.

Will still benefit from a Scottish EU passport when it comes.

J

I should clarify that giving Scottish-born or naturalised people outside the country the vote is something I'm neither for nor against, as I can see the arguments for it either way (and probably leaning towards for) - it's specifically the deliberate disenfranchisement of people who live in the country purely by their country of origin.

[Bristolhibby]

I should clarify that giving Scottish-born or naturalised people outside the country the vote is something I'm neither for nor against, as I can see the arguments for it either way (and probably leaning towards for) - it's specifically the deliberate disenfranchisement of people who live in the country purely by their country of origin.

I think we agree, if you live in Scotland and you are over 16, you get a vote.

I don’t agree that ex-pats (including those living out with Scotland) should get to vote.

What that means post independence, is up for debate. For example, me as a Scottish Citizen living in England (or a dual national) should I have some vote in Scotland’s elections?

American citizens who live abroad vote in Presidential elections.

However that is all up for debate in the future.

Eyes on the prize, I feel the legitimacy of a second referendum is beginning to sink in. Need to deliver a Pro-Independence result in the Scottish Parmimentary elections next year.

J

[Skol]

The polling they did was ask Mr Galloway, Mr Neil and Mr Gove, all scots living in the rUK. And got a return of 95% in favour.

That not actually possible. 33, 67 or 100% !!!

[Ozyhibby]

I think we agree, if you live in Scotland and you are over 16, you get a vote.

I don’t agree that ex-pats (including those living out with Scotland) should get to vote.

What that means post independence, is up for debate. For example, me as a Scottish Citizen living in England (or a dual national) should I have some vote in Scotland’s elections?

American citizens who live abroad vote in Presidential elections.

However that is all up for debate in the future.

Eyes on the prize, I feel the legitimacy of a second referendum is beginning to sink in. Need to deliver a Pro-Independence result in the Scottish Parmimentary elections next year.

J

Imagine the No won a second Indy ref but only got over the line on the basis of votes of people who did not live here? That is a recipe for disaster.


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[CloudSquall]

A good way to get an instant ban from Gorgeous George on Twitter is to ask him why he supports independence for every country on the planet apart from Scotland, extra rage points are rewarded for asking him why he wraps himself up in the red white and blue apron :greengrin .

I'm looking forward to Gove putting on a Scottish accent again though, it's always a laugh.

[JeMeSouviens]

I have to say that my Irish brother in law telling my England resident sister that it was nothing to do with her was a personal highlight of indyref1 :greengrin

[Kato]

That not actually possible. 33, 67 or 100% !!!5% was docked in case Gove was telling porkies.

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[Moulin Yarns]

That not actually possible. 33, 67 or 100% !!!

It was a joke, not a good one, obviously.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-unionists-are-flirting-ethnic-nationalism-long-abandoned-supporters-scottish-independence-joyce-mcmillan-2948632


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Decent article, and gets the changes in Scotland since the 80,s regarding "nationalism" and the shape of the independence movement since then. It probably explains some of the reasons of why so many ex labour folk have moved their position.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/new-polling-half-of-brits-think-scotland-will-break-away/amp?__twitter_impression=true

At least the UK public seem ready for us leaving.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

disappointed roseanna cunningham standing down for the next election

i wish her all the best

[StevieC]

disappointed roseanna cunningham standing down for the next election

i wish her all the best

I wish her all the best, but not too disappointed at her standing down.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I wish her all the best, but not too disappointed at her standing down.


only a 1400+ majority over the tory in 2016, SNP need a big name there imo, joanna cherry should try for that
constituency instead of edinburgh :)

[cabbageandribs1875]

another three retiring

Alex neil -69, airdrie and shotts
Michael russell -67, argyle and bute
Stewart stevenson -74, banffshire and buchan coast.

sad to lose them all, good men

[Ozyhibby]

another three retiring

Alex neil -69, airdrie and shotts
Michael russell -67, argyle and bute
Stewart stevenson -74, banffshire and buchan coast.

sad to lose them all, good men

Will be good to get some fresh blood in as well though.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Will be good to get some fresh blood in as well though.


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all three won with a 6k+ majority in 2016 with alex neil easily defeating richard leonard, i just hope the voters keep faith with the unexperienced newbies.

[degenerated]

Will be good to get some fresh blood in as well though.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDepends on who that fresh blood is though???

I would much prefer Mike Russell in parliament than Rhiannon Spear or another one of the woke stasi.

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[Peevemor]

I wish her all the best, but not too disappointed at her standing down.Same for me.

I once spent a week abroad in Rosie-Anna's company. She was weird to say the least.

[Moulin Yarns]

Same for me.

I once spent a week abroad in Rosie-Anna's company. She was weird to say the least.

Strathearn Rose is definitely a marmite politician. For someone who was environment minister she had very limited knowledge of protected species. See the number of protected species being shot by farmers in Tayside.

[marinello59]

As interesting as it is do the internal affairs of the SNP have anything to do with the thread topic? Just asking. :greengrin

[Just_Jimmy]

Andrew Neil and George Galloway have already formed a tag team on Twitter demanding that the eligibility to vote be changed to include Scottish expats, presumably hoping desperately that Scottish people in England would vote no.I fit that category. I'd vote yes and I wouldn't move home yet. I've made my life in England but I wouldn't rule out further chances in Scotland for my kids should I have them.

That said I'm not fussed if I get a vote or not. If it's rubbish I'm already happy here. If it's the utopia that's promised I can move back. I do think we'll get independence this time round.

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[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1297463722613657607

A Twitter thread from Richard Murphy on an independent Scottish currency.

Was interesting to read former SNP MP George Kerevan's comments regarding Scotland going down the "sterlingisation" route, he's quite critical of those pushing this route.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeKerevan/status/1297505267538694144

Anyone with time to read might be interested in the below papers by the Common Weal on how Scotland could set up an independent currency very early on,

https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-launch-a-scottish-currency/index.html

https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-make-a-currency-a-practical-guide/index.html

[JeMeSouviens]

If anyone needs a wee laugh on their way to impending Monday ...

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1297514964400386048?s=21

[Keith_M]

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1297463722613657607

A Twitter thread from Richard Murphy on an independent Scottish currency.

Was interesting to read former SNP MP George Kerevan's comments regarding Scotland going down the "sterlingisation" route, he's quite critical of those pushing this route.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeKerevan/status/1297505267538694144

Anyone with time to read might be interested in the below papers by the Common Weal on how Scotland could set up an independent currency very early on,

https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-launch-a-scottish-currency/index.html

https://commonweal.scot/library/how-to-make-a-currency-a-practical-guide/index.html



In the unlikely event we ever gained independence, I'd be in favour of adopting the Euro.

People have criticized that approach before, with predictions of the collapse of the Euro being one of the many alleged downsides, but none of those impending doom type scenarios ever came to anything.

Although it has dropped a lot against the dollar since the post-crash highs of 2008-11, the Euro currently has a rate of $1.18, very similar to the rate when it was initially introduced and much higher than it's first few years of currency trading.

[Ozyhibby]

In the unlikely event we ever gained independence, I'd be in favour of adopting the Euro.

People have criticized that approach before, with predictions of the collapse of the Euro being one of the many alleged downsides, but none of those impending doom type scenarios ever came to anything.

Although it has dropped a lot against the dollar since the post-crash highs of 2008-11, the Euro currently has a rate of $1.18, very similar to the rate when it was initially introduced and much higher than it's first few years of currency trading.

And it’s a lot stronger than the pound.


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[marinello59]

And it’s a lot stronger than the pound.


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Wouldn’t we have to be in the EU first?

[CropleyWasGod]

Wouldn’t we have to be in the EU first?

Not sure we would. The Euro, like the $ and the £, is an international tradeable currency that anyone can use.

the Principality of Monaco, the Republic of San Marino, the Vatican City State the Principality of Andorra have concluded monetary agreements with the EU, granting them the rights to produce limited quantities of euro coins with their own design on the national side, but not to issue euro banknotes.

certain French overseas territories, which are not part of the European Union have also signed agreements with the EU.
the Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon islands close to the eastern coast of Canada,
the Island of Saint-Barthélemy

Kosovo and Montenegro, in the Balkans, use the euro as a de facto domestic currency, as they have no agreements with the EU. This is keeping with an older practice of using the German mark, which was previously the de facto currency in these areas.

Also:-several countries manage their currencies by linking them to the euro, which acts as an anchor or reference currency.

[marinello59]

Not sure we would. The Euro, like the $ and the £, is an international tradeable currency that anyone can use.

the Principality of Monaco, the Republic of San Marino, the Vatican City State the Principality of Andorra have concluded monetary agreements with the EU, granting them the rights to produce limited quantities of euro coins with their own design on the national side, but not to issue euro banknotes.

certain French overseas territories, which are not part of the European Union have also signed agreements with the EU.
the Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon islands close to the eastern coast of Canada,
the Island of Saint-Barthélemy

Kosovo and Montenegro, in the Balkans, use the euro as a de facto domestic currency, as they have no agreements with the EU. This is keeping with an older practice of using the German mark, which was previously the de facto currency in these areas.

Also:-several countries manage their currencies by linking them to the euro, which acts as an anchor or reference currency.

I can see why we would use the Euro if we were in the EU but surely to do so without being a member means we would have given up some of our Independence before we even got started?

[CropleyWasGod]

I can see why we would use the Euro if we were in the EU but surely to do so without being a member means we would have given up some of our Independence before we even got started?

In terms of having a link to a stable currency, it may not be a bad idea, especially if the end-game (by consent) was joining the EU. That, after all, was the thinking behind having a currency union with rUK.

It worked for Ireland for 70 years.

[marinello59]

In terms of having a link to a stable currency, it may not be a bad idea, especially if the end-game (by consent) was joining the EU. That, after all, was the thinking behind having a currency union with rUK.

It worked for Ireland for 70 years.

So is there any advantage to be gained that sticking with sterling wouldn't give us? It could be several years before we get full EU membership.

[Steven79]

Wouldn’t we have to be in the EU first?We can use any currency that we want.

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[Steven79]

I can see why we would use the Euro if we were in the EU but surely to do so without being a member means we would have given up some of our Independence before we even got started?Ask someone from Germany or France if they don't see themselves as Independent countries...

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[marinello59]

Ask someone from Germany or France if they don't see themselves as Independent countries...

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Why would I ? They are. And they are in the EU so have a say in economic policy.

[CropleyWasGod]

So is there any advantage to be gained that sticking with sterling wouldn't give us? It could be several years before we get full EU membership.

Not sure about the monetary advantages, but for me it's about breaking the emotional link with the rUK. Having a link (even just a pegged currency) with the Euro is forward-thinking, and allows people to get used to the idea of full integration.

[marinello59]

We can use any currency that we want.

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Of course we could. Would be best we used the right one for us though surely?

[marinello59]

Not sure about the monetary advantages, but for me it's about breaking the emotional link with the rUK. Having a link (even just a pegged currency) with the Euro is forward-thinking, and allows people to get used to the idea of full integration.

Good point, I hadn't considered that.

[Steven79]

Not sure about the monetary advantages, but for me it's about breaking the emotional link with the rUK. Having a link (even just a pegged currency) with the Euro is forward-thinking, and allows people to get used to the idea of full integration.I'm now in favour of a EFTA arrangement rather than full EU membership.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

I'm now in favour of a EFTA arrangement rather than full EU membership.

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i caught a wee glimpse of a video the other day re the EFTA route, it would certainly appease those that want 'true independence' i'l need to do a tad more searching for the pros and cons.

[Ozyhibby]

i caught a wee glimpse of a video the other day re the EFTA route, it would certainly appease those that want 'true independence' i'l need to do a tad more searching for the pros and cons.

There will need to be a transition period where we take stock and decide the way we want to go.


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[CloudSquall]

I would presume EFTA would win back over a number of "Yes to No" voters who were turned off by the SNP balls to the walls EU position but that's more of a feeling rather than being based on data. It's my preference at least.

I'm more open personally to Euro membership than I was before but I still prefer a separate currency, I think monetary control would be a crucial tool for an independent Scotland and would give us the ability to ride out future economic storms better than countries within the Euro with limited monetary power.

I do see often on Twitter things posted like "currency is a unionist scare tactic" or "the currency can be decided on after" which isn't going to cut it, as a Yes voter it's definitely an area that the SNP needs to beefen up as sterlingisation currently has more holes than a defence made up of Colin Murdock and Ryan McGivern.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t think the Euro would be any worse than using sterling but I’d much prefer our own currency. The experience of Greece and Ireland post-2008 shows the value of it in an emergency.

[JeMeSouviens]

Would also much rather be in the EU and I think it’s essential to clearly be aiming for full membership during indyref2. The most significant movement has come from No/Remain moving to Yes.

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t think the Euro would be any worse than using sterling but I’d much prefer our own currency. The experience of Greece and Ireland post-2008 shows the value of it in an emergency.

To be fair, Ireland recovered quicker from 2008 than we did. The Euro is not a lot more stable now that the markets know that the EU will defend it as vigorously as they did.
Greece has or had a lot of structural problems before it entered the Euro and they failed to adapt to the new reality of being a member of a currency union. That does not need to apply to us.


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[JeMeSouviens]

To be fair, Ireland recovered quicker from 2008 than we did. The Euro is not a lot more stable now that the markets know that the EU will defend it as vigorously as they did.
Greece has or had a lot of structural problems before it entered the Euro and they failed to adapt to the new reality of being a member of a currency union. That does not need to apply to us.


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Yes it’s definitely true that the best way out of a crisis is not to get into it in the first place. But if you do get into that crisis then having all the tools, including slashing interest rates and printing money, at your disposal could be handy.

[Beefster]

Would also much rather be in the EU and I think it’s essential to clearly be aiming for full membership during indyref2. The most significant movement has come from No/Remain moving to Yes.

Yup. I’ll vote yes if it comes with a strong commitment to seek full EU membership or, as a minimum, a swift referendum on seeking EU membership. Ideally, accompanied with positive noises from the EU. Vague statements about sorting it out later won’t do for me.

[Ozyhibby]

Yup. I’ll vote yes if it comes with a strong commitment to seek full EU membership or, as a minimum, a swift referendum on seeking EU membership. Ideally, accompanied with positive noises from the EU. Vague statements about sorting it out later won’t do for me.

I have no doubt at all that we will be seeking to rejoin the EU. There will also be no shortage of EU officials sending positive messages on membership throughout the campaign. This campaign will be very different from 2014.


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[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1298225507499114497

Well if this performance from Nigel isn't enough for your yes vote.. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1298225507499114497

Well if this performance from Nigel isn't enough for your yes vote.. :greengrin


Gooner Dan
@1GoonerDan
Replying to
@Nigel_Farage
If Britannia rules the waves why do you have a panic attack every time you see a dinghy?

[Bristolhibby]

Gooner Dan
@1GoonerDan
Replying to
@Nigel_Farage
If Britannia rules the waves why do you have a panic attack every time you see a dinghy?

Quality

[cabbageandribs1875]

Gooner Dan
@1GoonerDan
Replying to
@Nigel_Farage
If Britannia rules the waves why do you have a panic attack every time you see a dinghy?


cracker :faf:

[cabbageandribs1875]

There will need to be a transition period where we take stock and decide the way we want to go.


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and what exciting times making our choice shall be, it will be a pleasure doing business with westminster ,on OUR terms

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646?mode=amp

Ireland showing Scotland what it could be.


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[Bristolhibby]

This has always stuck with me because of the pettiness of it back in 2014.

Who remembers when the Red Arrrows refusing to fly over Glasgow at the start of the 2014 Commonwealth Games with blue and white smoke (the colour of the saltire) because they only ever use red, white and blue smoke?

Just so happened it was a few months before the referendum.

So this happened today in Finland.

https://twitter.com/rafred1/status/1299447480506028032?s=21

Found the BBC article at the time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28480660

J

[danhibees1875]

This has always stuck with me because of the pettiness of it back in 2014.

Who remembers when the Red Arrrows refusing to fly over Glasgow at the start of the 2014 Commonwealth Games with blue and white smoke (the colour of the saltire) because they only ever use red, white and blue smoke?

Just so happened it was a few months before the referendum.

So this happened today in Finland.

https://twitter.com/rafred1/status/1299447480506028032?s=21

Found the BBC article at the time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28480660

J

I didn't remember that happening but the link you've provided says no-one asked them to not do the normal colours. :confused:

On a related note, the video of them flying over Edinburgh on Monday is stunning. :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

I didn't remember that happening but the link you've provided says no-one asked them to not do the normal colours. :confused:

On a related note, the video of them flying over Edinburgh on Monday is stunning. :aok:

The link says the organisers had discussions but there was no “formal request”. Which seems pretty clear that they were asked but said no. File under wgaf?

[Mibbes Aye]

This has always stuck with me because of the pettiness of it back in 2014.

Who remembers when the Red Arrrows refusing to fly over Glasgow at the start of the 2014 Commonwealth Games with blue and white smoke (the colour of the saltire) because they only ever use red, white and blue smoke?

Just so happened it was a few months before the referendum.

So this happened today in Finland.

https://twitter.com/rafred1/status/1299447480506028032?s=21

Found the BBC article at the time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28480660

J


Did the Red Arrows refuse an official request?

If so, from whom?

Is there an FOI that provides evidence for your post?

Or are you making things up?

Nat-pathetic IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

I expect we’ll see a bit more of the red arrows in future as the UK govt try and sell the union to us without actually doing anything to improve our economic position. If we are destined to always be the poor relations to England then what is the point of the union?


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[Bristolhibby]

Did the Red Arrows refuse an official request?

If so, from whom?

Is there an FOI that provides evidence for your post?

Or are you making things up?

Nat-pathetic IMO.

Have a read of the article no official request but was discussed. Not really sure what an “official request” actually entails mind.

It was more Fallons response to the thought of blue and white smoke.

Listen, it was just something that bugged me at the time, I saw the smoke and it immediately reminded me of the conversation in 2014.

I’d have thought two links was enough for the discussion.

An FOI? Evidence? Behave. This is a Hibs message board.

But just to add to the topic, here’s a Daily Mail article from the time.

Looks like guides issued to the press talk about blue and white smoke. And the Mail quotes a Senior Whitehall Source (I know, not FOI) who says that Fallon jumped in last minute.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704121/Who-tried-red-Red-Arrows-Commonwealth-Games-guide-said-jets-trail-blue-white-smoke-recreate-Scottish-flag.html

Bit tw@ish IMHO. I thought the Pavlovian response from the Defence Secretary to anything looking Scottish was tw@ttish, and his explanation of the red arrows always using RW&B smoke also Tw@ttish.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Have a read of the article no official request but was discussed. Not really sure what an “official request” actually entails mind.

It was more Fallons response to the thought of blue and white smoke.

Listen, it was just something that bugged me at the time, I saw the smoke and it immediately reminded me of the conversation in 2014.

I’d have thought two links was enough for the discussion.

An FOI? Evidence? Behave. This is a Hibs message board.

But just to add to the topic, here’s a Daily Mail article from the time.

Looks like guides issued to the press talk about blue and white smoke. And the Mail quotes a Senior Whitehall Source (I know, not FOI) who says that Fallon jumped in last minute.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704121/Who-tried-red-Red-Arrows-Commonwealth-Games-guide-said-jets-trail-blue-white-smoke-recreate-Scottish-flag.html

Bit tw@ish IMHO. I thought the Pavlovian response from the Defence Secretary to anything looking Scottish was tw@ttish, and his explanation of the red arrows always using RW&B smoke also Tw@ttish.

J

The unionists are trying to win this debate based on symbols and everyone else is looking at the GERS figures and wondering why Scotland is doing so badly within the union and thinking there has to be a better way.


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[JeMeSouviens]

The unionists are trying to win this debate based on symbols and everyone else is looking at the GERS figures and wondering why Scotland is doing so badly within the union and thinking there has to be a better way.


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If they go for a positive case they’re doomed. It would be so obviously thrown together in 5 minutes and would be full of the sort of UJ waving imperial nostalgia that Tories love but turns everyone else off.

Doubling down on financial uncertainty is there only hope and the smart ones know it.

[Ozyhibby]

If they go for a positive case they’re doomed. It would be so obviously thrown together in 5 minutes and would be full of the sort of UJ waving imperial nostalgia that Tories love but turns everyone else off.

Doubling down on financial uncertainty is there only hope and the smart ones know it.

The only thing about that is all the union is guaranteed poor financial performance with the country constantly structured around what’s good for the south east of England. Scotland constantly told we are subsidy junkies living of English tax payers. I can’t tell my kids that. I have too much self respect.


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[JeMeSouviens]

The only thing about that is all the union is guaranteed poor financial performance with the country constantly structured around what’s good for the south east of England. Scotland constantly told we are subsidy junkies living of English tax payers. I can’t tell my kids that. I have too much self respect.


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Scotland must surely be unique in having a right wing whose message is “forget self-reliance, enjoy the subsidies!”

[Bristolhibby]

Scotland must surely be unique in having a right wing whose message is “forget self-reliance, enjoy the subsidies!”

And Unionists have to see Scotland do badly in order to justify Unionism.

“Just think how much worse it would be without the safety net of Westminster”.

Perverse.

J

[Ozyhibby]

And Unionists have to see Scotland do badly in order to justify Unionism.

“Just think how much worse it would be without the safety net of Westminster”.

Perverse.

J

I can see why unionists south of the border would be happy enough with that plan but I really can’t understand why unionists in Scotland want Scotland to carry on with this knowing that the plan is to keep the country locked into permanent subsidy?


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[Moulin Yarns]

I can see why unionists south of the border would be happy enough with that plan but I really can’t understand why unionists in Scotland want Scotland to carry on with this knowing that the plan is to keep the country locked into permanent subsidy?


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Because their bosses at Westminster tell them that.

[lapsedhibee]

I can see why unionists south of the border would be happy enough with that plan but I really can’t understand why unionists in Scotland want Scotland to carry on with this knowing that the plan is to keep the country locked into permanent subsidy?


There's no difference between the two groups mentioned because, as you'd know if you'd been keeping up, there is no border between England and Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Because their bosses at Westminster tell them that.

Even those who are not in politics though. Why would the ordinary unionist in the street want that for their country? Permanent poor relations living on handouts? It seems a very strange aspiration.


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[marinello59]

Even those who are not in politics though. Why would the ordinary unionist in the street want that for their country? Permanent poor relations living on handouts? It seems a very strange aspiration.


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I'm sure if we keep pointing out to No voters how pathetic we think they are we will win them over to our way of thinking.

[stokesmessiah]

If/when the next referendum goes ahead it will be interesting to hear what the businesses do. Potential access to the EU via Scotland might make them a bit more supportive, especially finance?

[Moulin Yarns]

Even those who are not in politics though. Why would the ordinary unionist in the street want that for their country? Permanent poor relations living on handouts? It seems a very strange aspiration.


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Feart of change, happy with their lot.

[Ozyhibby]

If/when the next referendum goes ahead it will be interesting to hear what the businesses do. Potential access to the EU via Scotland might make them a bit more supportive, especially finance?

Yip, also there will be more support from academics, EU officials and politicians, remain commentators down south and remainers up here will all be much more sympathetic.


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[Ozyhibby]

I'm sure if we keep pointing out to No voters how pathetic we think they are we will win them over to our way of thinking.

I didn’t call them pathetic, just think it’s a strange thing to want for Scotland.


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[weecounty hibby]

If/when the next referendum goes ahead it will be interesting to hear what the businesses do. Potential access to the EU via Scotland might make them a bit more supportive, especially finance?

The company I work for, (billions of pounds worth of exports from Scotland every year) made no statements about an independent Scotland and all they said publicly when asked was that they would work with whatever government was in charge after the referendum. They publicly came out in support of staying in the EU tho.

[Mon Dieu4]

If/when the next referendum goes ahead it will be interesting to hear what the businesses do. Potential access to the EU via Scotland might make them a bit more supportive, especially finance?

Will be interesting indeed, in the last referendum my work was "neutral" it was for the people of Scotland to decide according to them, so neutral in fact that a couple of days before the vote they let David Cameron come into the office and tell a selected few how important staying in the Union was, have never forgiven them for their two faced approach to it all

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm sure if we keep pointing out to No voters how pathetic we think they are we will win them over to our way of thinking.

It’s not the voters. I don’t blame anyone for putting what they perceive as the financial well being of themselves and their families first. I think they’re wrong but, yes, it’s up to Yes people to persuade them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200830/3767c952c6ede9466801f89e6905488b.jpg
Scotland is the worst run economy in the world so stick with the union. [emoji849]


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Can-Scotland-afford-independence


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[StevieC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200830/3767c952c6ede9466801f89e6905488b.jpg
Scotland is the worst run economy in the world so stuck with the union. [emoji849]


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Can-Scotland-afford-independence



Wait a minute .. the article is aimed at showing Scotland is "too poor" for Independence .. yet shows a graph (Revenues in 2018, as shares of GDP) that suggests revenues in Scotland would be higher than in England??

[Skol]

I didn’t call them pathetic, just think it’s a strange thing to want for Scotland.


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For all its faults, I believe that Scotland will be better off within the union

I think Independence is a strange thing to wish for when we know we will require some fundamental and as yet unknown policies to avoid big tax rises and austerity in a way even the tories didnt impose on us.

I would much prefer an honest debate on the impact of independence ad properly costed rationale to back it up.

[Jack]

For all its faults, I believe that Scotland will be better off within the union

I think Independence is a strange thing to wish for when we know we will require some fundamental and as yet unknown policies to avoid big tax rises and austerity in a way even the tories didnt impose on us.

I would much prefer an honest debate on the impact of independence ad properly costed rationale to back it up.
Can you list how Scotland is better off within the Union? And perhaps how that will pan out in a post Brexit UK?

[The Modfather]

For all its faults, I believe that Scotland will be better off within the union

I think Independence is a strange thing to wish for when we know we will require some fundamental and as yet unknown policies to avoid big tax rises and austerity in a way even the tories didnt impose on us.

I would much prefer an honest debate on the impact of independence ad properly costed rationale to back it up.

What are the fundamentals and as yet unknown policies post Brexit transition? How will they avoid big tax rises and (further) austerity?

What you say is true, a grown up debate with some quantifiables (from both sides) is what is needed as the independence debate ramps up. However those same questions are as valid as to how the union will look post Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

For all its faults, I believe that Scotland will be better off within the union

I think Independence is a strange thing to wish for when we know we will require some fundamental and as yet unknown policies to avoid big tax rises and austerity in a way even the tories didnt impose on us.

I would much prefer an honest debate on the impact of independence ad properly costed rationale to back it up.

There is no such thing as a properly costed view of the future.
All that we know about unionism is that we will remain the constant poor relations of England. Subsidy junkies. Beggars really. If that suits you then fair enough, each to their own.


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[Mibbes Aye]

There is no such thing as a properly costed view of the future.
All that we know about unionism is that we will remain the constant poor relations of England. Subsidy junkies. Beggars really. If that suits you then fair enough, each to their own.


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Who uses language like ‘subsidy junkies’ and ‘beggars’?

Hold on, I only ever hear that from Nats.

I wonder why......

[Mibbes Aye]

There is no such thing as a properly costed view of the future.
All that we know about unionism is that we will remain the constant poor relations of England. Subsidy junkies. Beggars really. If that suits you then fair enough, each to their own.


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So, no properly costed view of the future. And describing Scotland as beggars. Each to their own, like you say :greengrin

[Smartie]

Who uses language like ‘subsidy junkies’ and ‘beggars’?

Hold on, I only ever hear that from Nats.

I wonder why......

It comes up pretty much every time I speak to someone from England, and at their instigation, not mine.

England is disappearing down a rabbit hole of festering resentment and this is just one, small symptom.

It’s not all twirly flags and money sums not adding up. Some of us see us tethered to a nation going in the wrong direction and would rather we disentangled ourselves from that and leave them to it rather than be dragged along.

[Ozyhibby]

So, no properly costed view of the future. And describing Scotland as beggars. Each to their own, like you say :greengrin

What would you call someone constantly standing in line waiting for handouts? That’s Scotland’s future in the union. Beggars might seem harsh but that’s what it is.


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[Jack]

It comes up pretty much every time I speak to someone from England, and at their instigation, not mine.

England is disappearing down a rabbit hole of festering resentment and this is just one, small symptom.

It’s not all twirly flags and money sums not adding up. Some of us see us tethered to a nation going in the wrong direction and would rather we disentangled ourselves from that and leave them to it rather than be dragged along.

The English editions of the likes of the Mail and Express are full of resentment towards the Jocks and their readers, unsurprisingly, take it in hook, line and sinker.

[danhibees1875]

Who uses language like ‘subsidy junkies’ and ‘beggars’?

Hold on, I only ever hear that from Nats.

I wonder why......

I'd agree with you - I don't really understand the need for such language or the picture it creates.

I don't feel like a subsidy junkie as a result of Scotland's deficit, I'd be more inclined to start seeing the benefits of being part of something larger tbh. Imperfect as I think it is.

[Kato]

I'd agree with you - I don't really understand the need for such language or the picture it creates.

I don't feel like a subsidy junkie as a result of Scotland's deficit, I'd be more inclined to start seeing the benefits of being part of something larger tbh. Imperfect as I think it is.Is the UK out with the EU "something larger"? What will the benefits of that be exactly?

Surely we are now entering an era where we are "something smaller".

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[Kato]

The English editions of the likes of the Mail and Express are full of resentment towards the Jocks and their readers, unsurprisingly, take it in hook, line and sinker.Exactly, that's the language used towards Scotland and Ozyhibby is using it in context.

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[danhibees1875]

Is the UK out with the EU "something larger"? What will the benefits of that be exactly?

Surely we are now entering an era where we are "something smaller".

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We don't have the same economic/spending ties with the EU as we do with the UK which is why I didn't think it was relevant at this point.

However, what the EU gave us was worth a hell of a lot and leaving it is certainly not a good thing and yes something which goes towards making us smaller and not something I can really take a guess as to the benefits.

[JeMeSouviens]

Who uses language like ‘subsidy junkies’ and ‘beggars’?

Hold on, I only ever hear that from Nats.

I wonder why......

You obviously don't spend any time on twitter or btl on the Telegraph, Times, Mail, Express ,etc.

Which come to think of it, is a very wise policy.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd agree with you - I don't really understand the need for such language or the picture it creates.

I don't feel like a subsidy junkie as a result of Scotland's deficit, I'd be more inclined to start seeing the benefits of being part of something larger tbh. Imperfect as I think it is.

Aiui, the gist of the "something larger" argument goes something like: all the regions within the large entity pool together and share together, so when parts are doing well, they pool more but there'll be times when they share more.

This sounds good but doesn't hold much water if you actually look at UK revenue/spending.

London (and to an extent the South-East of England) always earn much more.

Scotland, NI and London always have a disproportionately high spend (first 2 because of the accident of Barnett, the latter because the UK is over-centralised on London).

There are no regional ups and downs, taking turns to support each other, all in it together etc. It's actually a dysfunctional picture of one super region with a (humungously!) vast hinterland of permanently semi-depressed regions and a couple of lucky beneficiaries of a statistical anomaly (us).

There *are* things where scale helps. Trade is an obvious one, defence* arguably another. I don't think there's any particular evidence that economic or fiscal policy benefit from that scale. The most successful European countries are all small. Where scale helps, the best route to achieve it, imo, would be via supranational orgs like the EU, NATO, etc.



* although UK defence policy is (imo) barking and will be unless/until the UK elite get over their imperial past. Actually realising it's in the past would be a start. :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

The failure of the unionists to see their own extremists is laughable. It's all over the place, from the misogyny in the times newspaper, to the twittersphere, where they're openly trolling top women MP,s and MSP.s.

We'll only really get the grown up conversations when they see through their red white and blue shades.

For balance the independence movement has its own bams, but when they come out to play, somehow they represent all of the movement.

[marinello59]

The failure of the unionists to see their own extremists is laughable. It's all over the place, from the misogyny in the times newspaper, to the twittersphere, where they're openly trolling top women MP,s and MSP.s.

We'll only really get the grown up conversations when they see through their red white and blue shades.

For balance the independence movement has its own bams, but when they come out to play, somehow they represent all of the movement.

Swap unionists with Indy supporters and vice verse and you are saying word for word what people on the other side say. Both sides like to pretend that the problem is smaller than the other sides.

[JeMeSouviens]

Swap unionists with Indy supporters and vice verse and you are saying word for word what people on the other side say. Both sides like to pretend that the problem is smaller than the other sides.

That's true, but the Indy side doesn't have a state broadcaster and an array of media outlets putting out stories about "nasty cyberyoons".

[makaveli1875]

That's true, but the Indy side doesn't have a state broadcaster and an array of media outlets putting out stories about "nasty cyberyoons".

The holy ground has been grim recently but this made me laugh . The word of the day is definitly cyberyoon :not worth

[JeMeSouviens]

The holy ground has been grim recently but this made me laugh . The word of the day is definitly cyberyoon :not worth


Thanks. :wink:

We really need a better pejorative than "Yoon" though. It's not nearly as good as "nat" which goes so well with "nasty" and has the added advantage of almost subliminal Nazi reference.

"Nasty nats, nazi nats, nasty, nazi nats". Fair trips off the tongue.

[danhibees1875]

Aiui, the gist of the "something larger" argument goes something like: all the regions within the large entity pool together and share together, so when parts are doing well, they pool more but there'll be times when they share more.

This sounds good but doesn't hold much water if you actually look at UK revenue/spending.

London (and to an extent the South-East of England) always earn much more.

Scotland, NI and London always have a disproportionately high spend (first 2 because of the accident of Barnett, the latter because the UK is over-centralised on London).

There are no regional ups and downs, taking turns to support each other, all in it together etc. It's actually a dysfunctional picture of one super region with a (humungously!) vast hinterland of permanently semi-depressed regions and a couple of lucky beneficiaries of a statistical anomaly (us).

There *are* things where scale helps. Trade is an obvious one, defence* arguably another. I don't think there's any particular evidence that economic or fiscal policy benefit from that scale. The most successful European countries are all small. Where scale helps, the best route to achieve it, imo, would be via supranational orgs like the EU, NATO, etc.



* although UK defence policy is (imo) barking and will be unless/until the UK elite get over their imperial past. Actually realising it's in the past would be a start. :rolleyes:

I think that's certainly one way to cut the "Something larger" angle. Another, which works better here is the concept that clusters (noteably London, but also others would appear if you cut the data up small enough) draw in business, people, and money from elsewhere. Business clusters together and the economic pull is greater and these areas bring in more money accordingly.

So it's less sharing by ups and downs (although presumably Scotland done its share of sharing when the oil was good, and hopefully would be in a similar situation once our renewable potential was realised) as it is sharing by acknowledging that the economic pull of certain areas is stronger than others and that the pull is aided by business and people clustering in those hot spots. Arguably as much another problem in itself.


It's for those reasons, and they may be flawed, that I don't get on board with the idea of being part of the subsidy society.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think that's certainly one way to cut the "Something larger" angle. Another, which works better here is the concept that clusters (noteably London, but also others would appear if you cut the data up small enough) draw in business, people, and money from elsewhere. Business clusters together and the economic pull is greater and these areas bring in more money accordingly.

So it's less sharing by ups and downs (although presumably Scotland done its share of sharing when the oil was good, and hopefully would be in a similar situation once our renewable potential was realised) as it is sharing by acknowledging that the economic pull of certain areas is stronger than others and that the pull is aided by business and people clustering in those hot spots. Arguably as much another problem in itself.


It's for those reasons, and they may be flawed, that I don't get on board with the idea of being part of the subsidy society.

Got you. Yes, we're kind of saying the same thing in different ways I think. Anyway, most regions of the UK are "subsidy societies" looked at like that:

https://mk0fraserofalladdy84.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/GERS-Table-2-1.png.webp

[danhibees1875]

Got you. Yes, we're kind of saying the same thing in different ways I think. Anyway, most regions of the UK are "subsidy societies" looked at like that:

https://mk0fraserofalladdy84.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/GERS-Table-2-1.png.webp

Except my argument would be not calling any of them subsidy societies. They're areas of one singular economic society that contributes towards the pull of economic growth in certain areas and so share in the economic prosperity by way of spending a notional deficit.

Out of curiosity, have you ever seen something similar for areas of Scotland? I don't recall ever coming across anything similar when looking at these things.

[Ozyhibby]

Except my argument would be not calling any of them subsidy societies. They're areas of one singular economic society that contributes towards the pull of economic growth in certain areas and so share in the economic prosperity by way of spending a notional deficit.

Out of curiosity, have you ever seen something similar for areas of Scotland? I don't recall ever coming across anything similar when looking at these things.

Edinburgh shares its business rates with other local authorities.


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[ronaldo7]

Swap unionists with Indy supporters and vice verse and you are saying word for word what people on the other side say. Both sides like to pretend that the problem is smaller than the other sides.

I've still to see an Indy supporter giving a Nazi salute. It only took a couple of hours after the 2014 referendum for the dross to appear, but were supposed to believe it doesn't happen. If only those supporting the union would accept they have a problem they might be able to tackle it.

Meantime they'll continue to call us subsidy junkies.

[Mibbes Aye]

You obviously don't spend any time on twitter or btl on the Telegraph, Times, Mail, Express ,etc.

Which come to think of it, is a very wise policy.

:greengrin

I don't do Twitter. I have an account but I don’t tweet, it is merely to get tweets from organisations and agencies that relate to my work. It is usually the fastest way to pick up news releases.

I never go btl either, life is too short! The Guardian do a live feed for cricket where they quote people atl which is the best option. Been quoted a couple of times myself (he said in a humblebrag way).

I dread to think what I would encounter if I went btl on a right-wing paper. Saying that, I subscribe to the Telegraph as I think it is worth it to read viewpoints that challenge my thinking. Going by the bammerness of some of their opinion writers, I dread to think what lurks or festers btl!

[JimBHibees]

:greengrin

I don't do Twitter. I have an account but I don’t tweet, it is merely to get tweets from organisations and agencies that relate to my work. It is usually the fastest way to pick up news releases.

I never go btl either, life is too short! The Guardian do a live feed for cricket where they quote people atl which is the best option. Been quoted a couple of times myself (he said in a humblebrag way).

I dread to think what I would encounter if I went btl on a right-wing paper. Saying that, I subscribe to the Telegraph as I think it is worth it to read viewpoints that challenge my thinking. Going by the bammerness of some of their opinion writers, I dread to think what lurks or festers btl!

For us auldies. What does btl mean? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

For us auldies. What does btl mean? :greengrin

"below the line" - ie. the comments section underneath an article.

[JimBHibees]

"below the line" - ie. the comments section underneath an article.

Thanks. From experience they are in the main beyond depressing.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am hearing that a big proposal for the Scottish Parliament in the first minister's speech will be a National Care Service. Joined up thinking, it will never catch on.

[ronaldo7]

I am hearing that a big proposal for the Scottish Parliament in the first minister's speech will be a National Care Service. Joined up thinking, it will never catch on.

Let's hope so. Woe betide anyone who stands against it.

Step forward Dross. 😉

[marinello59]

I am hearing that a big proposal for the Scottish Parliament in the first minister's speech will be a National Care Service. Joined up thinking, it will never catch on.

Something Labour are pushing hard for. At least some good is going to come out of this Pandemic for the elderly.

[Moulin Yarns]

A draft independence Bill before end of the Parliament setting out terms and timing for indyref2

[marinello59]

A draft independence Bill before end of the Parliament setting out terms and timing for indyref2

Delighted with that. I think she said it will include the question to be asked.

[Ozyhibby]

Delighted with that. I think she said it will include the question to be asked.

Hopefully the same as last time.[emoji106]


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[HappyAsHellas]

Got you. Yes, we're kind of saying the same thing in different ways I think. Anyway, most regions of the UK are "subsidy societies" looked at like that:

https://mk0fraserofalladdy84.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/GERS-Table-2-1.png.webp
Have you got a link for this graphic?

[xyz23jc]

Hopefully the same as last time.[emoji106]


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Wi a different result o course! :greengrin:thumbsup::agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

Have you got a link for this graphic?

It's in the Fraser of Allander guide to GERS.

https://fraserofallander.org/gers-guide/

[Mibbes Aye]

I am hearing that a big proposal for the Scottish Parliament in the first minister's speech will be a National Care Service. Joined up thinking, it will never catch on.

I am wary of silver bullets, such as a National Care Service.

The last time it was seriously mooted was in 2007 when the demographic pressures of an ageing population were becoming apparent. Both Labour and the SNP indicated support for a NCS directly tied into the NHS.

ADSW, which was essentially the trade union for the thirty-two Directors of Social Work in each local authority at the time, weren’t happy. Understandable, because social care (along with education) are the biggest chunk of council resources, which they would lose.

Less cynically, the NHS, whilst incredibly popular can be an incredibly inefficient bureaucratic behemoth. A NCS would likely just replicate that.

Anyway, ADSW commissioned a quick piece of research by Professor Alison Petch, a highly-respected academic. Her findings were that invariably politicians and policy makers focused on systems and processes, and paid less attention to what makes an actual difference, which is culture, mindset and practice at the frontline.

It should also be acknowledges that the direction of travel, endorsed by all parties (or at least paid lip service) is towards localism, in health and social care - hence the report by the Christie Commission, the ‘Changing Lives’ review and the integration legislation enacted in 2016.

Unfortunately, creating a ‘National Care Service’ sounds like something powerful and great. I do not believe the reality would match the rhetoric and I think the research evidence is ambivalent at best. I also would consider the impact of centralising police and fire and rescue. Whilst anecdotal and subjective, it has been hard for me to discern the benefits. If anything, it seems to have created cost pressures through regional services having to align IT systems and confusion for staff through being told to adopt one approach (Strathclyde) that didn’t necessarily suit other parts of the country. For example, L&B worked very well with partner agencies in promoting wellbeing for sex workers but after centralisation it was treated as criminal activity, rather than a public health issue.

A National Care Service could work. It would cost more than the current set-up, which means increased charging or increased taxes. It would ensure that there was a provider of last resort but it would also create another huge bureaucratic extension to the NHS. It would Male the work done on health and social care integration over the last number of years redundant and it flies in the face of a localism agenda.

We should be careful what we wish for.

[Ozyhibby]

I am wary of silver bullets, such as a National Care Service.

The last time it was seriously mooted was in 2007 when the demographic pressures of an ageing population were becoming apparent. Both Labour and the SNP indicated support for a NCS directly tied into the NHS.

ADSW, which was essentially the trade union for the thirty-two Directors of Social Work in each local authority at the time, weren’t happy. Understandable, because social care (along with education) are the biggest chunk of council resources, which they would lose.

Less cynically, the NHS, whilst incredibly popular can be an incredibly inefficient bureaucratic behemoth. A NCS would likely just replicate that.

Anyway, ADSW commissioned a quick piece of research by Professor Alison Petch, a highly-respected academic. Her findings were that invariably politicians and policy makers focused on systems and processes, and paid less attention to what makes an actual difference, which is culture, mindset and practice at the frontline.

It should also be acknowledges that the direction of travel, endorsed by all parties (or at least paid lip service) is towards localism, in health and social care - hence the report by the Christie Commission, the ‘Changing Lives’ review and the integration legislation enacted in 2016.

Unfortunately, creating a ‘National Care Service’ sounds like something powerful and great. I do not believe the reality would match the rhetoric and I think the research evidence is ambivalent at best. I also would consider the impact of centralising police and fire and rescue. Whilst anecdotal and subjective, it has been hard for me to discern the benefits. If anything, it seems to have created cost pressures through regional services having to align IT systems and confusion for staff through being told to adopt one approach (Strathclyde) that didn’t necessarily suit other parts of the country. For example, L&B worked very well with partner agencies in promoting wellbeing for sex workers but after centralisation it was treated as criminal activity, rather than a public health issue.

A National Care Service could work. It would cost more than the current set-up, which means increased charging or increased taxes. It would ensure that there was a provider of last resort but it would also create another huge bureaucratic extension to the NHS. It would Male the work done on health and social care integration over the last number of years redundant and it flies in the face of a localism agenda.

We should be careful what we wish for.

I agree with all this. I’m away for a lie down.[emoji23]


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[greenlex]

Let's hope so. Woe betide anyone who stands against it.

Step forward Dross. 😉
He won’t stand against it. He just won’t be for it or something.

[GlesgaeHibby]

A draft independence Bill before end of the Parliament setting out terms and timing for indyref2

https://wingsoverscotland.com/blah-blah-blah/

I don't particularly like Stu Campbell but he's spot on here.

[marinello59]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/blah-blah-blah/

I don't particularly like Stu Campbell but he's spot on here.

If his point is that she is good at announcing wish lists but less good at delivering I’d agree. This sounded like a firm commitment today though.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/blah-blah-blah/

I don't particularly like Stu Campbell but he's spot on here.

He was a bit strange to begin with but he's gone full on crazy over the trans stuff. Now absolutely loathes the SNP as far as I can see. There were some positive and negative aspects to wings in 2014 but it/he's a total liability now.

[marinello59]

He was a bit strange to begin with but he's gone full on crazy over the trans stuff. Now absolutely loathes the SNP as far as I can see. There were some positive and negative aspects to wings in 2014 but it/he's a total liability now.

He is and always was an egoistical blaw. A blogger with a lot of views but a serious journalist? Some hung on his every word, quoting him every chance they could, despite the fact he was putting a brake on the case for independence rather than enhancing it. The SNP leadership must be well chuffed he has been found out now.

[grunt]

Anyway, ADSW commissioned a quick piece of research by Professor Alison Petch, a highly-respected academic. Her findings were that invariably politicians and policy makers focused on systems and processes, and paid less attention to what makes an actual difference, which is culture, mindset and practice at the frontline.Deary me. I sincerely hope this time round that important decisions on policy aren't made on management consultant BS such as this. Work out the systems and processes, make the processes follow the needs of the people within the system, and as long as you don't cock it up, the culture and mindset will follow. Surely we can agree that most people are in the caring services because they agree on the needs of those they are there to help? Out of all the professions, surely the mindset is there already in the care services?

[Mibbes Aye]

Deary me. I sincerely hope this time round that important decisions on policy aren't made on management consultant BS such as this. Work out the systems and processes, make the processes follow the needs of the people within the system, and as long as you don't cock it up, the culture and mindset will follow. Surely we can agree that most people are in the caring services because they agree on the needs of those they are there to help? Out of all the professions, surely the mindset is there already in the care services?

I think there is a complexity..In theory, health and social work have principles and values that underpin, and would be described as patient-centred or person-centred. The reality of how assessment is carried out and how resources are managed and allocated is bureaucratised. Essentially many people are fitted into a system rather than fitting a system around people.
I don’t believe there is a uniformity of mindset and culture within health and social care, far from it.

Depending on your ideological viewpoint you could explain why this happens in a number of different ways.

I am not sure if I am interpreting you right but I would argue that you need to understand what outcomes you are trying to achieve at a personal and a population level. You then instil and promote that vision and with people on board you work out what systems and processes you need.

[grunt]

I think there is a complexity..In theory, health and social work have principles and values that underpin, and would be described as patient-centred or person-centred. The reality of how assessment is carried out and how resources are managed and allocated is bureaucratised. Essentially many people are fitted into a system rather than fitting a system around people.
I don’t believe there is a uniformity of mindset and culture within health and social care, far from it.
Are you saying that it's too difficult and that therefore we shouldn't try? We've seen the problems during Covid of people within the health care system effectively throwing their problems "over the fence" to the care network for them to deal with. Scotland has already made great strides towards enabling care and health systems to work together - I see this as the next logical step of what the SNP has already been attempting. If we don't try, we certainly won't succeed, and I think we have a political leadership with the will to pull it off.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you saying that it's too difficult and that therefore we shouldn't try? We've seen the problems during Covid of people within the health care system effectively throwing their problems "over the fence" to the care network for them to deal with. Scotland has already made great strides towards enabling care and health systems to work together - I see this as the next logical step of what the SNP has already been attempting. If we don't try, we certainly won't succeed, and I think we have a political leadership with the will to pull it off.

It is funny but every time you reply to any of my posts it is to disagree, usually because you have misinterpreted my point.

I have made what I consider was a reasonable and balanced case about why. a National Care Service isn’t necessarily some panacea for the challenges faced by the health and care system.

Perhaps you wish to make a reasonable and balanced case as to why, with supporting evidence. That would be interesting, genuinely. Throwing phrases like ‘management BS’ about doesn’t really qualify as insightful or informed debate though.

[grunt]

I have made what I consider was a reasonable and balanced case about why. a National Care Service isn’t necessarily some panacea for the challenges faced by the health and care system.I don't think you made a reasonable and balanced case. You jumped in from the start assuming that any NCS would be a behemoth, and therefore wouldn't work. But you later describe the changes already made in Scotland as being potentially made redundant, implying that the progress made to date has been positive. So I don't see why any further steps toward a National system would not be built on what has already been achieved, which you seem to agree has been positive.


Less cynically, the NHS, whilst incredibly popular can be an incredibly inefficient bureaucratic behemoth. A NCS would likely just replicate that.But then you say it could work?


A National Care Service could work. It would cost more than the current set-up, which means increased charging or increased taxes.


Perhaps you wish to make a reasonable and balanced case as to why, with supporting evidence. That would be interesting, genuinely. Throwing phrases like ‘management BS’ about doesn’t really qualify as insightful or informed debate though.In order for me to comment I have to point out when I think that something is management consultant BS, don't I? And anyway, where am I supposed to get supporting evidence? Firstly I'm neither a care professional nor a politician. I'm posting on here because I support a certain football club and at the same time I have an interest in the future of my country. Secondly, what evidence do you think exists to demonstrate that this policy might be achieved?

And if we're talking about evidence, where's yours? Don't answer that, as I really don't want you wasting your time obtaining facts and figures. I'm not looking for evidence; I just came in here for a discussion about an exciting policy suggestion. Sorry but I don't have evidence to support my views.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't think you made a reasonable and balanced case. You jumped in from the start assuming that any NCS would be a behemoth, and therefore wouldn't work. But you later describe the changes already made in Scotland as being potentially made redundant, implying that the progress made to date has been positive. So I don't see why any further steps toward a National system would not be built on what has already been achieved, which you seem to agree has been positive.

But then you say it could work?



In order for me to comment I have to point out when I think that something is management consultant BS, don't I? And anyway, where am I supposed to get supporting evidence? Firstly I'm neither a care professional nor a politician. I'm posting on here because I support a certain football club and at the same time I have an interest in the future of my country. Secondly, what evidence do you think exists to demonstrate that this policy might be achieved?

And if we're talking about evidence, where's yours? Don't answer that, as I really don't want you wasting your time obtaining facts and figures. I'm not looking for evidence; I just came in here for a discussion about an exciting policy suggestion. Sorry but I don't have evidence to support my views.

Just to highlight one aspect of you misreading me (and in fairness maybe I wasn’t clear enough), I wasn’t implying that there had necessarily been positive progress.

Since 2016, actually a year before to an extent, local authorities and health boards restructured to integrate adult social care with primary health care in their local authority area.

Some areas included other services too. The evidence in the public domain suggests there has been mixed progress across the country and the reasons for the differences are complex.

The point I am making is that structural reform on the scale of a NCS is massive and when we are still only just developing initial understanding and findings from integration in 2016.

The overall point of my post was complex but clear I think. The case for further structural reform isn’t necessarily supported by evidence and needs to be strong. There also needs to be due consideration of what the model looks like and what consequences there would be.

It is far more complicated than a feel-good slogan about a National Care Service.

[marinello59]

Just to highlight one aspect of you misreading me (and in fairness maybe I wasn’t clear enough), I wasn’t implying that there had necessarily been positive progress.

Since 2016, actually a year before to an extent, local authorities and health boards restructured to intwgrqte adult social care with primary health care in their local authority area.

Some areas included other services too. The evidence in the public domain suggests there has been mixed progress across the country and the reasons for the differences are complex.

The point I am making is that structural reform on the scale of a NCS is massive and when we are still only just developing initial understanding and findings from integration in 2016.

The overall point of my post was complex but clear I think. The case for further structural reform isn’t necessarily supported by evidence and needs to be strong. There also needs to be due consideration of what the model looks like and what consequences there would be.

It is far more complicated than a feel-good slogan about a National Care Service.

Could this be distilled down to funding?

[grunt]

I also would consider the impact of centralising police and fire and rescue. Whilst anecdotal and subjective, it has been hard for me to discern the benefits. If anything, it seems to have created cost pressures through regional services having to align IT systems and confusion for staff through being told to adopt one approach (Strathclyde) that didn’t necessarily suit other parts of the country. For example, L&B worked very well with partner agencies in promoting wellbeing for sex workers but after centralisation it was treated as criminal activity, rather than a public health issue.

Ok apologies but I missed this about policing. And that was silly of me, because it supports my argument. In the last passing out parade before the change, the police cadets at Tulliallan had 9 different uniforms on. That's 9 procurement functions, 9 contracts, and a complete lack of consistency. So there's a benefit straightaway.

In order for police forces to work together you need their IT systems to be aligned. And other systems too. I seem to recall that we couldn't obtain sensible crime statistics because different forces recorded crimes in different ways. So there's two benefits straight off the bat.

Your other anecdotal examples don't demonstrate that police force reorganisation should not have been done; they demonstrate that it should have been done better. As time goes on, I'd hope those inconsistencies will be addressed.

So it is with the reform of care provision. We won't get it completely right first time, but we'll be going in the right direction.

[Mibbes Aye]

Could this be distilled down to funding?

It is my personal view, though informed from experience, that there a whole bunch of different dynamics that affect performance and progress across the country.

It is hard to get away from funding and the complexity it brings though. When integration came about, 31’integration authorities’ were set up. These were the partnerships between local authority adult social care and primary health care, though some chose to add in other things like children’s social work. There are 31necause Stirling and Clacks combined.

Integration authorities are legally bound to balance their books on an annual basis. This can lead to a bit of a fight between local authorities and health boards to ensure the funding is in place because there are various ‘things’ that statutory agencies have to do because of being statutory. Running out of money isn’t an excuse.

Local authorities have been hit hard, and there are consequentials in that education and social care are statutory for them, so they have had to axe lots of other things, sell off estate and tap into reserves The perversity is that a lot of those things that were axed actively prevented people from needing social care, or needing it to a greater degree. Also worth noting that because of the way UK funding works, English local authorities are maybe two years ahead on the pain trajectory, so you can almost preview what is coming.

Health boards need to balance budgets but have historically been able to essentially be bailed out financially by SG, through different mechanisms.

This often means that the integration authorities depend on the Health boards fronting up the shortfall in money. It gets more complicated as a consequence. Fife or Dumfries and Galloway have co-terminous councils and health boards (though that in itself doesn’t make things more likely to succeed). NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde covers several local authorities - Glasgow obviously, but also a bunch of small ones some of which are very deprived, at least one of which is generally affluent. NHS Tayside covers Dundee which is urban and has had lots of issues around substance misuse deaths, but it also covers Angus, which is semi-rural to rural, with lots of dispersed towns and villages.

So you have all these different factors that make it very hard to ensure funding that is both equitable and targeted. I have always thought it is a bit like football referees - you can have a referee who is consistent or one who exercises common sense. Really hard to do both!

I think the other factor in all this is how the health system consumes money. There are a myriad of performance targets in health but an issue that if they were all being met, which they are not, the political response (probably from any party) would be to put additional funding in, to bring eighteen weeks down to sixteen weeks, three days down to two, four hours down to one and a half. It is a bottomless pit.

And that’s before I get started on the shiny machines consultants like and the massive spend on prescription drugs :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok apologies but I missed this about policing. And that was silly of me, because it supports my argument. In the last passing out parade before the change, the police cadets at Tulliallan had 9 different uniforms on. That's 9 procurement functions, 9 contracts, and a complete lack of consistency. So there's a benefit straightaway.

In order for police forces to work together you need their IT systems to be aligned. And other systems too. I seem to recall that we couldn't obtain sensible crime statistics because different forces recorded crimes in different ways. So there's two benefits straight off the bat.

Your other anecdotal examples don't demonstrate that police force reorganisation should not have been done; they demonstrate that it should have been done better. As time goes on, I'd hope those inconsistencies will be addressed.

So it is with the reform of care provision. We won't get it completely right first time, but we'll be going in the right direction.

Crimes still get recorded in different ways. And a very successful,approach to safeguarding sex workers in Edinburgh essentially got shelved with the move to Police Scotland. And police concern forms for Adult Protection went through the roof because national policy became to report everything, even when it wasn’t necessary, tieing up social workers and police who worked in public protection units.

It bemuses me how one can defend centralisation when for years the policy direction was localism, community empowerment and disaggregation of public services. And before it had any chance to settle in it got abandoned.

[grunt]

It bemuses me how one can defend centralisation when for years the policy direction was localism, community empowerment and disaggregation of public services. And before it had any chance to settle in it got abandoned.

I guess for such a policy to be successful you need strong central processes and systems which obtain economies of scale and which at the same time allow and take account of culture mindset and practice at the frontline.

Hopefully we can agree to leave it there.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok apologies but I missed this about policing. And that was silly of me, because it supports my argument. In the last passing out parade before the change, the police cadets at Tulliallan had 9 different uniforms on. That's 9 procurement functions, 9 contracts, and a complete lack of consistency. So there's a benefit straightaway.

In order for police forces to work together you need their IT systems to be aligned. And other systems too. I seem to recall that we couldn't obtain sensible crime statistics because different forces recorded crimes in different ways. So there's two benefits straight off the bat.

Your other anecdotal examples don't demonstrate that police force reorganisation should not have been done; they demonstrate that it should have been done better. As time goes on, I'd hope those inconsistencies will be addressed.

So it is with the reform of care provision. We won't get it completely right first time, but we'll be going in the right direction.

Just in regard to your last two sentences -what makes it right? More importantly, how do you make it work?

There are 32 local authorities, using maybe six or seven different IT systems in total. NHS has a number of IT systems. NHS and local authority IT systems don’t speak to each other generally.

The vast majority of care home provision and home care provision is provided by the independent sector i.e companies intended to make profit for their owners or shareholders. I am not passing comment on that but how does a NCS work? Are all the workers TUPEd over into public sector posts? Given public sector pensions are far more generous, leave entitlement is far more generous, occupational support is far more generous, staffing ratios are far more generous, wages are far more generous, where does the money come from? The difference in unit cost between deploying an independent sector home care worker and a statutory sector home care worker is absolutely massive, even with attempts over the last few years to level out things with the Living Wage etc.

Perhaps more fundamentally, even the statutory sector struggles to recruit and retain staff despite better conditions. While the hit in other parts of the labour force might draw people to care, there is also going to be a fear factor for people about working in a care home or carrying out intimate personal care in someone else’s home.

This is essentially my point. A NCS could work but there are many, many things that need to be thought through and accounted for. Adult social care deserves better than to be a handy slogan to capitalise on people’s fears from the pandemic.

[Mibbes Aye]

I guess for such a policy to be successful you need strong central processes and systems which obtain economies of scale and which at the same time allow and take account of culture mindset and practice at the frontline.

Hopefully we can agree to leave it there.

I was in the midst of my last post when you posted, so didn’t see this until just now.

I don’t think there are absolutes in this sort of area, so yes, I am happy to leave it there :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Listening to FMQ’s it sounds like the NCS will be state run rather than private.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Listening to FMQ’s it sounds like the NCS will be state run rather than private.


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Given the sustainability issues in independent sector provision it would bearly impossible for it not to be. The sheer scale of work involved would require it to be public sector, whether as part of the NHS or an executive agency in its own right or what ever.

[Keith_M]

Something Labour are pushing hard for. At least some good is going to come out of this Pandemic for the elderly.


But Labour in Scotland's default position is to oppose anything proposed by the SNP.

Do you really think they'll put the good of the population before party politics?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1301128802085543936?s=21

Campaign to rig the next vote getting well under way.


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[weecounty hibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1301128802085543936?s=21

Campaign to rig the next vote getting well under way.


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They are ****ting themselves and that is why they want to change the rules. The problem they have with that is that it shows exactly why Scotland needs to be independent and that decisions made in Scotland for the people who live in Scotland is the way forward

[Glory Lurker]

Cannae beat an unelected Lord trying to thwart democracy.

[Kato]

Cannae beat an unelected Lord trying to thwart democracy.

C'mon man. The House of Lords is a "rich and colourful" tradition which enhances "our precious Union". Although some would say even the name conjures up an anachronistic, feudal sham.

All those Labour and Tory peers snoozing their way through the day is bloomin' hard work.

Where would Scotland be without it?

[Glory Lurker]

All those Labour and Tory peers snoozing their way through the day is bloomin' hard work.



Hoi! The snoozing Lib Dem peers contribute too!

[Kato]

Hoi! The snoozing Lib Dem peers contribute too!

My bad, how could anyone forget the Lib Dem peers? Unforgivable.

[Glory Lurker]

My bad, how could anyone forget the Lib Dem peers? Unforgivable.

:-)

[CloudSquall]

They are all over the shop trying to change the rules of a referendum they tell us we are never getting, how majestic :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Awe naw! Hadrian's wall will have to be rebuilt.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scotland-need-something-like-berlin-18863855

[Jack]

Awe naw! Hadrian's wall will have to be rebuilt.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scotland-need-something-like-berlin-18863855
I agree we'd (Scotland) need to build a wall. It would be needed to keep all the English refugees out who are looking for a better life! lol











lol added to denote this is NOT a serious suggestion.

[Ozyhibby]

Awe naw! Hadrian's wall will have to be rebuilt.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scotland-need-something-like-berlin-18863855

They appear to have started campaigning already for a referendum they say they will never grant?
A wall is an impressive escalation though.[emoji3]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Awe naw! Hadrian's wall will have to be rebuilt.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scotland-need-something-like-berlin-18863855

Who will pay for this wall? I can see a Mexican standoff.

[Future17]

Who will pay for this wall? I can see a Mexican standoff.

If we're rebuilding Hadrian's Wall (albeit in a different location), I'd expect funding to be made available by UNESCO or the like.

[danhibees1875]

If we're rebuilding Hadrian's Wall (albeit in a different location), I'd expect funding to be made available by UNESCO or the like.

We'd be as well making use of the remaining wall. We could take a reasonable amount of nice countryside and coastline to add to our collection.

Plus the drive from Scotland to Newcastle would be a lot shorter.

[Moulin Yarns]

We'd be as well making use of the remaining wall. We could take a reasonable amount of nice countryside and coastline to add to our collection.

Plus the drive from Scotland to Newcastle would be a lot shorter.

Why should we put up with even more sectarianism?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/29/hadrians-wall-dig-reveals-oldest-christian-graffiti-on-chalice

[StevieC]

We'd be as well making use of the remaining wall. We could take a reasonable amount of nice countryside and coastline to add to our collection.

Plus the drive from Scotland to Newcastle would be a lot shorter.

Newcastle would actually be in Scotland. The wall ran to the river Tyne and finished at Wallsend on the Tyne.

I’ve got family members in Newcastle that have expressed a willingness to merge with Scotland should we gain Independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

Newcastle would actually be in Scotland. The wall ran to the river Tyne and finished at Wallsend on the Tyne.

I’ve got family members in Newcastle that have expressed a willingness to merge with Scotland should we gain Independence.

We'd have to kick their brains back in.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/06/if-the-union-is-to-survive-the-left-needs-to-shape-its-own-bold-and-hopeful-patriotism?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

It’s as if Will Hutton has never been to Scotland.


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[makaveli1875]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1301128802085543936?s=21

Campaign to rig the next vote getting well under way.


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Your starting to sound like Donald Trump

[Moulin Yarns]

Your starting to sound like Donald Trump

Fortunately the Lord Finklestein and his ilk will not be able to interfere as he is not an MSP.

[Curried]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/06/if-the-union-is-to-survive-the-left-needs-to-shape-its-own-bold-and-hopeful-patriotism?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

It’s as if Will Hutton has never been to Scotland.


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I've seen some deluded opinion pieces on independence over the last few months, but this paragraph from your link OH is outstanding:

"One of Scotland’s most emblematic, loved and stirring events is the annual Edinburgh military tattoo. Pipes, kilts and battle honours testify to the crucial part Scotland has always played in the British armed services and how tight are the ties that bind. Scottish Labour needs to own events like these, alongside the Scottish BBC, the British Open at St Andrews and whatever symbol of union comes to hand, even Balmoral. Simultaneously, it has to offer a federal constitutional settlement offering Scotland entrenched autonomy. And it must repudiate Brexit: the SNP cannot be gifted the pro-EU position. Britain’s national project is as a federal country within an EU that strengthens Britain’s hard and soft power and of which Scotland is an essential part. The union jack and the European flag go hand in hand."

[CloudSquall]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/06/if-the-union-is-to-survive-the-left-needs-to-shape-its-own-bold-and-hopeful-patriotism?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

It’s as if Will Hutton has never been to Scotland.


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Richard, Iain, and co belting oot Rule Britannia on live TV at every sporting event, what could possibly go wrong :greengrin

[Kato]

I've seen some deluded opinion pieces on independence over the last few months, but this paragraph from your link OH is outstanding:

"One of Scotland’s most emblematic, loved and stirring events is the annual Edinburgh military tattoo. Pipes, kilts and battle honours testify to the crucial part Scotland has always played in the British armed services and how tight are the ties that bind. Scottish Labour needs to own events like these, alongside the Scottish BBC, the British Open at St Andrews and whatever symbol of union comes to hand, even Balmoral. Simultaneously, it has to offer a federal constitutional settlement offering Scotland entrenched autonomy. And it must repudiate Brexit: the SNP cannot be gifted the pro-EU position. Britain’s national project is as a federal country within an EU that strengthens Britain’s hard and soft power and of which Scotland is an essential part. The union jack and the European flag go hand in hand."


1: Doesn't seem to get that we are now out of the EU.
2: Doesn't seem to get that the tattoo is strictly for tourists and most people in Scotland couldn't give a hoot about it these days.
3: Seems to think that, as in England, enough people in Scotland will fall for flag-waving con-tricks to win an election.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/06/if-the-union-is-to-survive-the-left-needs-to-shape-its-own-bold-and-hopeful-patriotism?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

It’s as if Will Hutton has never been to Scotland.


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He just has a different perspective from you.

I think he makes a fair point about what can unite us rather than what can divide us, and let’s face it, the people he referenced - John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robin Cook - are giants compared to Sturgeon and Swinney, let alone the shamblefest that makes up most of the opposition at Holyrood.

I suspected he touched a raw nerve when he talked about ‘regressive poisonous nationalism” though :greengrin

Hutton has been quiet of late but he is a thoughtful man and I like that he chimes with my view of a broad federalist settlement, anchored within the EU.

Still, those who treat The National as gospel rather than the Guardian as thought-provoking will always resort to ad hominem, grievance and resentment.

From the comments I have read following on from your post there is a real touchiness when anyone sways away from drinking the SNP Kool-Aid :greengrin

[Future17]

John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robin Cook - are giants compared to Sturgeon and Swinney

In what way?

[Mibbes Aye]

In what way?

Intellect, ideals and ideas. I would classify them as leaders, rather than managers. Sturgeon is a manager (maybe not so much in the Salmond debacle). Swinney is abject, let’s face it. Both he and Gavin Williamson should have gone over the exams fiasco.

[Ozyhibby]

He just has a different perspective from you.

I think he makes a fair point about what can unite us rather than what can divide us, and let’s face it, the people he referenced - John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robin Cook - are giants compared to Sturgeon and Swinney, let alone the shamblefest that makes up most of the opposition at Holyrood.

I suspected he touched a raw nerve when he talked about ‘regressive poisonous nationalism” though :greengrin

Hutton has been quiet of late but he is a thoughtful man and I like that he chimes with my view of a broad federalist settlement, anchored within the EU.

Still, those who treat The National as gospel rather than the Guardian as thought-provoking will always resort to ad hominem, grievance and resentment.

From the comments I have read following on from your post there is a real touchiness when anyone sways away from drinking the SNP Kool-Aid :greengrin

He talks of ‘regressive nationalism’ at the same time as advocating waving union jacks everywhere? He is really just advocating his nationalism.
And if he and others think that the solution for sustaining the union is to start waving the union flag everywhere then I’m totally cool with that.


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[Mibbes Aye]

He talks of ‘regressive nationalism’ at the same time as advocating waving union jacks everywhere? He is really just advocating his nationalism.
And if he and others think that the solution for sustaining the union is to start waving the union flag everywhere then I’m totally cool with that.


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You always used to read The Guardian and Observer as I recall. You would know him from his editorship. Rejecting the poison of division doesn’t mean wearing a Union Jack bowler hat. Methinks you are reading too much into the piece. I didn’t come away from it feeling he was a die-hard unionist, quite the opposite, and anyone who has read any of his books would agree, I’m sure.

He’s very pro-European, suspicious of linking too closely to the USA and generally about lesser borders, not more.

[Ozyhibby]

You always used to read The Guardian and Observer as I recall. You would know him from his editorship. Rejecting the poison of division doesn’t mean wearing a Union Jack bowler hat. Methinks you are reading too much into the piece. I didn’t come away from it feeling he was a die-hard unionist, quite the opposite, and anyone who has read any of his books would agree, I’m sure.

He’s very pro-European, suspicious of linking too closely to the USA and generally about lesser borders, not more.

I think he wrote a book called ‘the State we’re in’ or something like that that I read in the 90’s at the start of the new labour project. I don’t disagree with his overall politics but he needs to come up with better than that article to convince me he knows anything about Scotland. He could start by asking himself why we are poorer than other small nations close by. Solve that within the union and that is how they save it. Not by waiving flags. If they don’t, then eventually Yes will win.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I think he wrote a book called ‘the State we’re in’ or something like that that I read in the 90’s at the start of the new labour project. I don’t disagree with his overall politics but he needs to come up with better than that article to convince me he knows anything about Scotland. He could start by asking himself why we are poorer than other small nations close by. Solve that within the union and that is how they save it. Not by waiving flags. If they don’t, then eventually Yes will win.


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Bigger picture for me. Westminster and Holyrood don’t best serve the needs of their populace. Regional governments within an overall EU structure. A bit like Germany in the nineteenth century before unification. Regions would be free to collaborate if there was a need for ‘critical mass’. It obviously raises all sorts of questions for current institutions like the NHS but the health system in Europe tends to function in a different way anyway - we shouldn’t steer away from ‘sacred cows’.

Time for brave thinking that steps outside flags and lines on a map that are arbritary and were settled a few hundred years ago. Where I live, depending on the point in time, I could have switched from being ‘Scottish’ to ‘English’ and back, a dozen times. It is nonsensical.

The critical thing is what actually works. I don’t think either London or Edinburgh do the best for the people they serve. From all my experience, there is something that would work better in most cases, which is very locality-based decision-making, within regions. As soon as you do that you negate the need for Holyrood, and if we are part of the EU we arguably negate the need for Westminster. Of course this would involve European partners being in agreement. I think in principle the will is there but in practice there would be incredible amounts of horse-trading.

[Ozyhibby]

Bigger picture for me. Westminster and Holyrood don’t best serve the needs of their populace. Regional governments within an overall EU structure. A bit like Germany in the nineteenth century before unification. Regions would be free to collaborate if there was a need for ‘critical mass’. It obviously raises all sorts of questions for current institutions like the NHS but the health system in Europe tends to function in a different way anyway - we shouldn’t steer away from ‘sacred cows’.

Time for brave thinking that steps outside flags and lines on a map that are arbritary and were settled a few hundred years ago. Where I live, depending on the point in time, I could have switched from being ‘Scottish’ to ‘English’ and back, a dozen times. It is nonsensical.

The critical thing is what actually works. I don’t think either London or Edinburgh do the best for the people they serve. From all my experience, there is something that would work better in most cases, which is very locality-based decision-making, within regions. As soon as you do that you negate the need for Holyrood, and if we are part of the EU we arguably negate the need for Westminster. Of course this would involve European partners being in agreement. I think in principle the will is there but in practice there would be incredible amounts of horse-trading.

Guess it just depends which of the options on offer just now gets you closer to those goals. From what I can see, I doubt that’s Westminster.


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[makaveli1875]

I think he wrote a book called ‘the State we’re in’ or something like that that I read in the 90’s at the start of the new labour project. I don’t disagree with his overall politics but he needs to come up with better than that article to convince me he knows anything about Scotland. He could start by asking himself why we are poorer than other small nations close by. Solve that within the union and that is how they save it. Not by waiving flags. If they don’t, then eventually Yes will win.


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Have you ever thougt of going to live in Ireland since you get a massive hard on about it on a daily basis. Why live in this small impoverished **** hole when the promised land is just over the Irish Sea

[speedy_gonzales]

1: Doesn't seem to get that we are now out of the EU.
2: Doesn't seem to get that the tattoo is strictly for tourists and most people in Scotland couldn't give a hoot about it these days.
3: Seems to think that, as in England, enough people in Scotland will fall for flag-waving con-tricks to win an election.

Is that your opinion or FACT? I've been to the Tattoo a few times over the last 20 years and met a fair few folk from all over Scotland.
It's a great spectacle, and maybe I've been naive, but I've never correlated the "tight ties" that bind Scotland to the Union when sitting watching those great performers from all over the world, not just the "Commonwealth".

[Callum_62]

Have you ever thougt of going to live in Ireland since you get a massive hard on about it on a daily basis. Why live in this small impoverished **** hole when the promised land is just over the Irish SeaSpeaking of touching a raw nerve....

[emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

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[grunt]

Intellect, ideals and ideas. I would classify them as leaders, rather than managers. Sturgeon is a manager ...
Yet another unsubstantiated assertion conveyed as fact. Is it because she's a woman?

[Kato]

Is that your opinion or FACT? I've been to the Tattoo a few times over the last 20 years and met a fair few folk from all over Scotland.
It's a great spectacle,

I did say "most people", meaning the general population of Scotland. If you looked around the last time you were there I think you'd find that most attendees were non-Scottish tourists.


and maybe I've been naive, but I've never correlated the "tight ties" that bind Scotland to the Union when sitting watching those great performers from all over the world, not just the "Commonwealth".


The idea that Edinburgh Military Tattoo could be used as a vehicle to persuade the general population of Scotland to vote Labour is just weird, mainly because no one gives a hoot about the Tattoo, but you should take that up with the author of the article as it's not my idea.

[Kato]

Bigger picture for me. Westminster and Holyrood don’t best serve the needs of their populace. Regional governments within an overall EU structure. A bit like Germany in the nineteenth century before unification. Regions would be free to collaborate if there was a need for ‘critical mass’. It obviously raises all sorts of questions for current institutions like the NHS but the health system in Europe tends to function in a different way anyway - we shouldn’t steer away from ‘sacred cows’.

Time for brave thinking that steps outside flags and lines on a map that are arbritary and were settled a few hundred years ago. Where I live, depending on the point in time, I could have switched from being ‘Scottish’ to ‘English’ and back, a dozen times. It is nonsensical.

The critical thing is what actually works. I don’t think either London or Edinburgh do the best for the people they serve. From all my experience, there is something that would work better in most cases, which is very locality-based decision-making, within regions. As soon as you do that you negate the need for Holyrood, and if we are part of the EU we arguably negate the need for Westminster. Of course this would involve European partners being in agreement. I think in principle the will is there but in practice there would be incredible amounts of horse-trading.


Horse trading? To arrive at the goals you listed, which are perfectly sensible to me and I don't have any argument with, it would have to be unicorn trading. We are living in a country in which the Govt have just spent a week and half hooting on about singing the words of Rule Britannia (with gusto) at a classical concert. The idea that any of the ideas/ideals you list would happen is fanciful.

[marinello59]

Yet another unsubstantiated assertion conveyed as fact. Is it because she's a woman?

Seriously? That’s as poor a post as I’ve seen on here and grossly unfair to the poster you have quoted.

[grunt]

Seriously? That’s as poor a post as I’ve seen on here and grossly unfair to the poster you have quoted.Thanks for your support, Admin.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yet another unsubstantiated assertion conveyed as fact. Is it because she's a woman?

Behave youself. Why pick the Sturgeon comment, which was more generous than the Swinney one?

I obviously pissed you off at some point but you embarass yourself with constantly trying to have a go at me in a hapless, ill-informed manner.

Play the ball, not the man, otherwise what's the point?

[Mibbes Aye]

Horse trading? To arrive at the goals you listed, which are perfectly sensible to me and I don't have any argument with, it would have to be unicorn trading. We are living in a country in which the Govt have just spent a week and half hooting on about singing the words of Rule Britannia (with gusto) at a classical concert. The idea that any of the ideas/ideals you list would happen is fanciful.

Women's suffrage was fanciful at one point. A structure that saw a framework of human rights legislation across several countries, covering hundreds of millions of people was fanciful at one stage.

If we don't aim high, we will never even reach mediocre.

[marinello59]

Thanks for your support, Admin.

When we post here we have exactly the same status as everyone else. If you think I’ve stepped out of line report my post.

[Kato]

Women's suffrage was fanciful at one point. A structure that saw a framework of human rights legislation across several countries, covering hundreds of millions of people was fanciful at one stage.

If we don't aim high, we will never even reach mediocre.

Good luck aiming high with that but it's not really comparable with allowing women to vote. The vested interests and nationalistic instincts won't allow it, certainly in our lifetimes. We'll be lucky to be back in the EU within the next 30 years.

[Ozyhibby]

Have you ever thougt of going to live in Ireland since you get a massive hard on about it on a daily basis. Why live in this small impoverished **** hole when the promised land is just over the Irish Sea

I love a well thought out ‘if you don’t like it F off’ argument.[emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

Women's suffrage was fanciful at one point. A structure that saw a framework of human rights legislation across several countries, covering hundreds of millions of people was fanciful at one stage.

If we don't aim high, we will never even reach mediocre.

Fair enough. But a structure of max subsidiarity in the EU does rather depend on being in the EU. With rUK gone, I suspect there will be more chance of further and deeper cooperation for what’s left. We (!) have some opportunity to be part of that. I see no route to that via the UK until long after I’m dead. Even the Libs are pro-Brexit now.

[Mibbes Aye]

Fair enough. But a structure of max subsidiarity in the EU does rather depend on being in the EU. With rUK gone, I suspect there will be more chance of further and deeper cooperation for what’s left. We (!) have some opportunity to be part of that. I see no route to that via the UK until long after I’m dead. Even the Libs are pro-Brexit now.

Starmer will sort it. He has a fine legal mind, you know! :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Have you ever thougt of going to live in Ireland since you get a massive hard on about it on a daily basis. Why live in this small impoverished **** hole when the promised land is just over the Irish Sea

**** me, that escalated quickly, it's moved from foreigners out to fellow Scots I disagree with oot in one post.

[JeMeSouviens]

Starmer will sort it. He has a fine legal mind, you know! :greengrin

He’s an impressive guy but he’ll need to be a cross between Perry Mason and Obi Wan Kenobi to pull this one round. :greengrin

[Kato]

He’s an impressive guy but he’ll need to be a cross between Perry Mason and Obi Wan Kenobi to pull this one round. :greengrinOn Marr this morning it was claimed that Boris Johnson has a team working on dredging sleaze/smears up from Starmer's past, anything and everything will be tried and whatever sticks will be hammered. After the attempted "IRA lover" smear failed last week Boris is seemingly raging and is determined to set about finding something to get on him.

The above has nothing to do with politics or running a country but that is where we are.

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[Hibrandenburg]

On Marr this morning it was claimed that Boris Johnson has a team working on dredging sleaze/smears up from Starmer's past, anything and everything will be tried and whatever sticks will be hammered. After the attempted "IRA lover" smear failed last week Boris is seemingly raging and is determined to set about finding something to get on him.

The above has nothing to do with politics or running a country but that is where we are.

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It worked a treat on Corbyn and is straight out of the fascists playbook. "Label your enemies as unpatriotic".

[CloudSquall]

Anyone that believes that the EU can be molded into something similar to Germany's federal system is on ****ing smack.

[Kato]

It worked a treat on Corbyn and is straight out of the fascists playbook. "Label your enemies as unpatriotic".There was a poll somewhere last year and whenever someone claimed to "hate Corbyn" they were then asked, "Why"? Most people couldn't give a reason.


I give Starmer 18 months to two years and his name'll be mud. Fascists need conservatives to allow them into power and even the softest conservative seems inured to these tactics.

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[Kato]

Anyone that believes that the EU can be molded into something similar to Germany's federal system is on ****ing smack.It's not a bad idea given the state of this country. Got lots of people through the 80's.

"Aim high" or "aim whilst high". Same thing at the moment.

[Mibbes Aye]

On Marr this morning it was claimed that Boris Johnson has a team working on dredging sleaze/smears up from Starmer's past, anything and everything will be tried and whatever sticks will be hammered. After the attempted "IRA lover" smear failed last week Boris is seemingly raging and is determined to set about finding something to get on him.

The above has nothing to do with politics or running a country but that is where we are.

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Read a similar story in the Guardian. I suspect Starmer sees himself above going negative but will have a staff team who can rebut and throw their own mud if necessary, and will be a bit more competent than the Tories.

In truth, I don’t think he needs to. I think one of the Guardian columnists commented that when Starmer was prosecuting terrorists, Johnson was being sacked for lying. Labour don’t need to push that, the likes of the Guardian will, and increasingly so are the Twlegraph and ConservativeHome.

[makaveli1875]

I love a well thought out ‘if you don’t like it F off’ argument.[emoji23]


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Its not an argument , you never shut up about how rich and wonderful ireland is and how much better it is than Scotland . Shan wee flacid Scotland can never match up to your stonking irish boner

[lapsedhibee]

you never shut up about how rich and wonderful ireland is and how much better it is than Scotland . Shan wee flacid Scotland can never match up to your stonking irish boner
Very unpatriotic of him. Also has username referencing a country which is not Scotland. Disgrace!

[Ozyhibby]

Its not an argument , you never shut up about how rich and wonderful ireland is and how much better it is than Scotland . Shan wee flacid Scotland can never match up to your stonking irish boner

I could pick Norway, Denmark or Iceland if you like? All richer than Scotland because they have the power to focus their economies for their own benefit. It’s because I believe Scotland can be every bit as good as those countries that I constantly point out there is a better option available to us.
What I don’t do nor ever would is tell those who believe in the union that they should F off and live in London.
We have a perfect example of what independence would look like right on our door step. It’s not a leap into the unknown it is portrayed as.


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[Callum_62]

I could pick Norway, Denmark or Iceland if you like? All richer than Scotland because they have the power to focus their economies for their own benefit. It’s because I believe Scotland can be every bit as good as those countries that I constantly point out there is a better option available to us.
What I don’t do nor ever would is tell those who believe in the union that they should F off and live in London.
We have a perfect example of what independence would look like right on our door step. It’s not a leap into the unknown it is portrayed as.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLook, if you don't like it, go hom....err, away

Its a shame Brexit has now ruined you buggering off to Ireland

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[makaveli1875]

I could pick Norway, Denmark or Iceland if you like? All richer than Scotland because they have the power to focus their economies for their own benefit. It’s because I believe Scotland can be every bit as good as those countries that I constantly point out there is a better option available to us.
What I don’t do nor ever would is tell those who believe in the union that they should F off and live in London.
We have a perfect example of what independence would look like right on our door step. It’s not a leap into the unknown it is portrayed as.


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i asked you a question i never told you to go anywhere and i never told you to F off . If i did then you can surely quote me

[JeMeSouviens]

Look, if you don't like it, go hom....err, away

Its a shame Brexit has now ruined you buggering off to Ireland

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I think under the pre-existing Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland, it's the one place it's still easy to bugger off to.

Lucky for Ozy. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

I think under the pre-existing Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland, it's the one place it's still easy to bugger off to.

Lucky for Ozy. :wink:

And I have an Irish passport.[emoji6]


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[makaveli1875]

And I have an Irish passport.[emoji6]


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ok so after all that , have you lived there since you have the passport ?

thats a question incase your in any doubt or think im telling you what do do

[Ozyhibby]

ok so after all that , have you lived there since you have the passport ?

thats a question incase your in any doubt or think im telling you what do do

No, I have never lived there but visit regularly.


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[Callum_62]

No, I have never lived there but visit regularly.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd here comes the you have no right to live somewhere then moan about it line

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[Future17]

I think he makes a fair point about what can unite us rather than what can divide us, and let’s face it, the people he referenced - John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robin Cook - are giants compared to Sturgeon and Swinney, let alone the shamblefest that makes up most of the opposition at Holyrood.


Intellect, ideals and ideas. I would classify them as leaders, rather than managers. Sturgeon is a manager (maybe not so much in the Salmond debacle). Swinney is abject, let’s face it. Both he and Gavin Williamson should have gone over the exams fiasco.

Can you be a "giant" in terms of ideals? Surely that's subjective beyond even simply being a matter of opinion - two equally intelligent and otherwise comparable people might share ideals, but they also might differ dramatically. I don't think that can make one a giant over the other.

What is a good idea and what is not is of course a matter of opinion. Even when an idea is followed up and acted upon, people will still usually disagree about the results.

I'm not sure how you're measuring intellect but, if you were to use the traditional means (which I'm not a fan of btw), I don't think you can justifiably rank Sturgeon below Smith, Dewar and Cook to the point of them being "giants" and her not being.

I'm not sure I understand your leader versus manager contrast, but if you were to ask me to pick one "leader" from those four names, I would pick Sturgeon.

Opinions eh?

[JeMeSouviens]

Based on "Drugs" & "Tories" threads, my suggestion for Indyref2 campaign song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVpihgwE18

[JeMeSouviens]

Can you be a "giant" in terms of ideals? Surely that's subjective beyond even simply being a matter of opinion - two equally intelligent and otherwise comparable people might share ideals, but they also might differ dramatically. I don't think that can make one a giant over the other.

What is a good idea and what is not is of course a matter of opinion. Even when an idea is followed up and acted upon, people will still usually disagree about the results.

I'm not sure how you're measuring intellect but, if you were to use the traditional means (which I'm not a fan of btw), I don't think you can justifiably rank Sturgeon below Smith, Dewar and Cook to the point of them being "giants" and her not being.

I'm not sure I understand your leader versus manager contrast, but if you were to ask me to pick one "leader" from those four names, I would pick Sturgeon.

Opinions eh?

Smith did well in opposition and tragically we'll never know how he'd have done as PM.

Agree about the other 2. Cook was obviously clever and good in parliament but not so sure about a leader. Dewar was 2nd division compared to Cook/Smith. Labour pols don't end up at Holyrood if considered up to much.

[makaveli1875]

And here comes the you have no right to live somewhere then moan about it line

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Your just making **** up now. At no point did I tell him to **** off or tell him where he has a right to live or moan about . If you can read which I assume you can i asked him if he loves Ireland so much and its so much richer and better than here why not live there, since then he's revealed he has an Irish passport so obviously crossed his mind.
Is that OK with you?

[Ozyhibby]

Your just making **** up now. At no point did I tell him to **** off or tell him where he has a right to live or moan about . If you can read which I assume you can i asked him if he loves Ireland so much and its so much richer and better than here why not live there, since then he's revealed he has an Irish passport so obviously crossed his mind.
Is that OK with you?

It has never crossed my mind.[emoji23]


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[lapsedhibee]

Pretty sure Sturgeon just announced that we're copying Ireland's tracing app. I've e-mailed her asking whether she's thought about going to live there, since she thinks their software's so good.

[makaveli1875]

Pretty sure Sturgeon just announced that we're copying Ireland's tracing app. I've e-mailed her asking whether she's thought about going to live there, since she thinks their software's so good.

Did she reply asking if you considered a career in comedy since your so unbelievably funny.

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty sure Sturgeon just announced that we're copying Ireland's tracing app. I've e-mailed her asking whether she's thought about going to live there, since she thinks their software's so good.

[emoji23]


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[lapsedhibee]

Did she reply asking if you considered a career in comedy since your so unbelievably funny.

Not so far, but I'll share if she does. :wink:

[Hiber-nation]

Did she reply asking if you considered a career in comedy since your so unbelievably funny.

I actually think that lapsedhibee is really funny :thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

Pretty sure Sturgeon just announced that we're copying Ireland's tracing app. I've e-mailed her asking whether she's thought about going to live there, since she thinks their software's so good.

Better than our flaccid rubbish I can tell you. :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Anyone that believes that the EU can be molded into something similar to Germany's federal system is on ****ing smack.

I suppose if you believe that the person who sold the gold at a low ebb, and the guy who aided and abetted Tony Blair whilst they removed 6000 square miles of Scottish waters for the benefit of their friends in the south, anything goes.

On the shoulders of giants. 😂

[JimBHibees]

I suppose if you believe that the person who sold the gold at a low ebb, and the guy who aided and abetted Tony Blair whilst they removed 6000 square miles of Scottish waters for the benefit of their friends in the south, anything goes.

On the shoulders of giants. 😂

Is that actually true about the Scottish waters? Haven't seen that before.

[degenerated]

Is that actually true about the Scottish waters? Haven't seen that before.The previous boundary was a straight line east from Berwick, Labour changed that to a diagonal line as per the the border. Bit cheeky, but I remember reading they would have to hand it back on our independence.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/scotland-accuses-london-of-piracy-1.189683%3fmode=amp

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200907/b1b3e4a4febf76e4851e33e883c37623.jpg


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[ronaldo7]

Is that actually true about the Scottish waters? Haven't seen that before.

It is, yes.

They'll probably put up a fight when we demand it back after our independence.

Strong independent thinkers those ex labour guys.

[Jack]

It is, yes.

They'll probably put up a fight when we demand it back after our independence.

Strong independent thinkers those ex labour guys.

I'm sure I read years ago that if there is any fight for these waters post independence the international convention for drawing lines on maps will mean they will revert to Scotland. In the meantime any benefits from these waters won't count for Scotland's benefit in GERS.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm sure I read years ago that if there is any fight for these waters post independence the international convention for drawing lines on maps will mean they will revert to Scotland. In the meantime any benefits from these waters won't count for Scotland's benefit in GERS.

The oil fields in the redrawn bit are old and not producing much any more so it doesn't make much odds.

I don't think oil was actually a factor in this anyway, the idea was to try and draw something like a proper international boundary to properly establish where the Holyrood control of fisheries begins/ends.

As you say, the actual boundary established will be done in the post-ref negotiations.

[degenerated]

It is, yes.

They'll probably put up a fight when we demand it back after our independence.

Strong independent thinkers those ex labour guys.The Scottish one is busy telling Londoners to ask us for their money back. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200907/f6aa7bc1429fb90d0db20a569bf00637.jpg

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[Ozyhibby]

The Scottish one is busy telling Londoners to ask us for their money back. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200907/f6aa7bc1429fb90d0db20a569bf00637.jpg

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Begging for a move to the House of Lords. Easy to see why the Labour Party is dead in Scotland.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Pretty sure Sturgeon just announced that we're copying Ireland's tracing app. I've e-mailed her asking whether she's thought about going to live there, since she thinks their software's so good.

:tee hee:

[Callum_62]

Your just making **** up now. At no point did I tell him to **** off or tell him where he has a right to live or moan about . If you can read which I assume you can i asked him if he loves Ireland so much and its so much richer and better than here why not live there, since then he's revealed he has an Irish passport so obviously crossed his mind.
Is that OK with you?

Your also making **** up

At no point did I say you told him to **** off

His points are all valid too, we do have a very similar nearby nation that is independent of the UK who is currently richer than us

Why is that?

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[Beefster]

Your also making **** up

At no point did I say you told him to **** off

His points are all valid too, we do have a very similar nearby nation that is independent of the UK who is currently richer than us

Why is that?

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What is the answer in your opinion?

Having only a tenuous grip of even rudimentary economics, I’m going to guess that the real answer is nowhere near as simplistic as ‘because we don’t have all the levers to improve things’.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the answer in your opinion?

Having only a tenuous grip of even rudimentary economics, I’m going to guess that the real answer is nowhere near as simplistic as ‘because we don’t have all the levers to improve things’.

There are lots of reasons. And it’s not just a case of having all the economic levers although that is a big part of it.
One thing that an independent country will have is that most of the spending of the state will be at home. Is that true of Scotland? I’m not so sure. I’m sure on a head count basis that there are plenty civil service staff in Scotland but I’m also pretty sure that the highest earning positions will mostly be in London. This will be the same for many organisations within the state.
And also in the private sector, companies usually prefer to have their head quarters close to political power, and in the UK that means London. It’s perfectly natural.
In independent countries like Ireland and Denmark, those higher paying jobs are in Dublin and Copenhagen.
The focus of the UK is London. If the London property market heats up, you start to hear talk of interest rate rises even if the rest of the UK is stagnant and interest rate rises are the last thing that’s needed. If we stay part of the UK we are choosing to always be the poorer provincial part in the far north.


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[JeMeSouviens]

What is the answer in your opinion?

Having only a tenuous grip of even rudimentary economics, I’m going to guess that the real answer is nowhere near as simplistic as ‘because we don’t have all the levers to improve things’.

Ireland does a stellar job on attracting inward investment. Low corporation tax is a big part of that but not the only thing. Being the English speaking bridge to the European market is a big plus for them too and one an iScotland could get in on the act with.

[Beefster]

There are lots of reasons. And it’s not just a case of having all the economic levers although that is a big part of it.
One thing that an independent country will have is that most of the spending of the state will be at home. Is that true of Scotland? I’m not so sure. I’m sure on a head count basis that there are plenty civil service staff in Scotland but I’m also pretty sure that the highest earning positions will mostly be in London. This will be the same for many organisations within the state.
And also in the private sector, companies usually prefer to have their head quarters close to political power, and in the UK that means London. It’s perfectly natural.
In independent countries like Ireland and Denmark, those higher paying jobs are in Dublin and Copenhagen.
The focus of the UK is London. If the London property market heats up, you start to hear talk of interest rate rises even if the rest of the UK is stagnant and interest rate rises are the last thing that’s needed. If we stay part of the UK we are choosing to always be the poorer provincial part in the far north.


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No offence but I’m not sure chunks of that are feasible.

We’ll spend more on civil servants whilst losing the surplus of public spending we currently benefit from. I’m not sure that’s going to be a net benefit.

It’s not realistic to expect loads of companies to move from London to Edinburgh in the event of independence. IMHO, it’s more likely to be the reverse.

Fair point about interest rates but is there any recent concrete examples of when we suffered from high interest rates just to cater for London?

Even if we do get masses of civil service jobs and companies relocating to Edinburgh, what’s in it for the rest of Scotland outside the central belt? Sounds like they’ll be in the boat that you’re complaining about.


Ireland does a stellar job on attracting inward investment. Low corporation tax is a big part of that but not the only thing. Being the English speaking bridge to the European market is a big plus for them too and one an iScotland could get in on the act with.

Yep, that’s the biggie. We’re not going to be the only show in town in the same way that Ireland has had it to itself though - we’ll be in direct competition with them.

If I vote for independence, it’ll be directly because it’s the only feasible route back into the EU. If we need to leave the bigger UK to be a part of the mahoosive EU, so be it. I still feel like the economic arguments are weak AF though and effectively a ‘trust us, it might be okay’. It’s not me that’ll suffer if it isn’t okay though - it’ll be folk who really can’t afford it to not be okay and all our kids and their kids. I suppose we’ll always have the EU to help out, if it comes to it!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/7782177961f2785904c9ed6b16bea26f.jpg
How does little independent Ireland do it without the broad shoulders of the UK treasury?


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/7782177961f2785904c9ed6b16bea26f.jpg
How does little independent Ireland do it without the broad shoulders of the UK treasury?


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:agree: Luckily I feel safe to comment without worrying about being told to go and ****ing live there if I like it that much.

[Ozyhibby]

Looks like we are in a battle just to protect devolution, never mind gain independence. If this bill gets through the Scottish Parliament is finished.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/f846f2cb8cf850d6de3735433c2c4cb1.plist
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/c3bf3fd2ba4aef264da8229968fc5ca2.jpg


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[Hibrandenburg]

Looks like we are in a battle just to protect devolution, never mind gain independence. If this bill gets through the Scottish Parliament is finished.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/f846f2cb8cf850d6de3735433c2c4cb1.plist
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/c3bf3fd2ba4aef264da8229968fc5ca2.jpg


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Need to retake control over those wee pretendy parliaments.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looks like we are in a battle just to protect devolution, never mind gain independence. If this bill gets through the Scottish Parliament is finished.

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Thread on the implications here:

https://twitter.com/McEwen_Nicola/status/1303721735657840640?s=20

Not pretty.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tory Welsh shadow minister resigns:

https://twitter.com/DavidMeldingMS/status/1303695663172136961?s=20

So that's Welsh labour and Welsh Tories up in arms.

Predictably Scot Tories think it's great, not heard from Scot Lab yet. The "party of devolution" is the claim, is it not? :hmmm:

[JeMeSouviens]

Mark Lazarowicz (ex-Lab MP) -

"the powers to be reserved to UK gov/Plt go well beyond what is necessary to deal with return of powers from EU. These proposals should be opposed by any MP/MSP, from any party in Scotland (and elsewhere) who genuinely supports devolution."

"I am very much aware that some will be tempted to see this is as *yet another* dividing line where people's views on this will depend on whether they are pro- or anti-independence. That would be a big error - particularly, I suggest, for those who want to maintain UK in some form"

[Mr Grieves]

Mark Lazarowicz (ex-Lab MP) -

"the powers to be reserved to UK gov/Plt go well beyond what is necessary to deal with return of powers from EU. These proposals should be opposed by any MP/MSP, from any party in Scotland (and elsewhere) who genuinely supports devolution."

"I am very much aware that some will be tempted to see this is as *yet another* dividing line where people's views on this will depend on whether they are pro- or anti-independence. That would be a big error - particularly, I suggest, for those who want to maintain UK in some form"

Ex lab msp/mp Malcolm Chisolm describing it as a UK government attack on the devolution settlement. This ain't just a SNP grievance, there's widespread concern that devolution is under threat.

[Callum_62]

Let's be blunt the Scottish Conservative party are full of absolute ****ers

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[Kato]

Let's be blunt the Scottish Conservative party are full of absolute ****ers

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Carpetbaggers has more letters than you've put stars.