Scottish Independence

[Cataplana]

All those words have been used to describe women. :confused:

Bawbag? I need to get out more.

[jonty]

Knew I'd seen it too....not making any comment, just for info.



Nearly 90% of Facebook ads paid for by the Conservative Party in the first few days of December contained misleading claims, an investigation has found.First Draft – a non-profit organisation which works on debunking fake news – analysed every ad promoted by the UK’s three main political parties on the social media giant in the first four days of December.It found 88% of the Conservative’s Facebook campaigning pushed figures challenged by Full Fact, the UK’s leading fact-checking organisation.By comparison, First Draft said that it could not find any misleading claims in ads run by Labour on Facebook over the same period.Full Fact plays an independent role in Facebook’s Third Party Fact Checking programme, but this doesn’t currently cover ads or content from political figures or parties.
Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/?ito=cbshare Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

BBC had an article too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50726500

It looked just at every paid-for Facebook ad from the three main UK-wide parties run over the first four days of December:

for the Conservatives, it said that 88% (5,952) of the party's most widely promoted ads either featured claims which had been flagged by independent fact-checking organisations (including BBC Reality Check) as not correct or not entirely correct. The figure includes instances of the same claims being made across multiple posts. One example was that Labour would spend £1.2 trillion at a cost of £2,400 to every household, which was contained within 4,028 ads. Those sums are significantly higher than others' analysis of Labour's plans
for the Lib Dems, it said hundreds of potentially misleading ads had featured identical unlabelled graphs, with no indication of the source data, to claim it was the only party that could beat either Labour, the Conservatives or the SNP "in seats like yours"
for Labour, it said that it could not find any misleading claims in ads run over the period

[greenlex]

Seriously, if you're annoyed at having to vote in another independence referendum because someone once said it was an opportunity of a generation, simply boycott it and don't vote.

Win win. :thumbsup:
100% this. I don’t get the fear of another Independence referendum. Just vote like you did the last time if you are a died in the wool unionist or indeed a silent one. Don’t try and subdue self determination. Smacks of fascism.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think that there needs to be a few moments set aside for people to take a deep breath and take stock of where we are today. I'm seeing a lot of, perhaps understandable, triumphalism on social media and some of it is bordering on being a bit personal or nasty. A bad winner is almost as bad as a bad loser.

The Yes movement is suddenly in a very strong position. When you consider the starting point for the 2014 referendum had support for yes at around 25% then to have a core yes vote of 45% as a starting point is phenomenal. However we need more people on board. Whether people like it or not every single one of us is now an ambassador for a yes vote and with that comes a responsibility. There's a threatened status quo ready to use a threatened press to push their propaganda and every ill thought out social media post and every negative online interaction is a few clicks away from being painted as the offensive ramblings of a 'cybernat'. We have control over that if we do things properly. I hope the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and everyone else under the yes umbrella is reminding their staff, their members and their supporters of that responsibility now.

There are going to be a lot of bewildered centre left Labour supporters looking for a new home today, a lot of Lib Dems and perhaps even a few centrist Tories who see independence as less of a threat than Johnson's Brexit. They aren't going to be brought on board by being mocked, taunted or laughed at. They need it to be made clear to them that they are welcome and they have made the right choice.

Amen to that. Exactly the path the independence movement needs to take ... there are a lot of Labour voters out there who could be persuaded that independence isn't such a bad thing, especially watching some of the absolutely die hard Labour seats in England and Wales which went Tory on Thursday ... those Scottish Labour voters who have doggedly stuck with the party must despair at what they could reasonably see as a betrayal by folk they thought were kindred spirits.

I've said it before: IMO a not bad strategy for the SNP would be to resolve that within a period of say two years of independence being declared the party would be dissolved having done its job, leaving its members and voters to gravitate to whatever political party best represents their views.

[Ozyhibby]

Amen to that. Exactly the path the independence movement needs to take ... there are a lot of Labour voters out there who could be persuaded that independence isn't such a bad thing, especially watching some of the absolutely die hard Labour seats in England and Wales which went Tory on Thursday ... those Scottish Labour voters who have doggedly stuck with the party must despair at what they could reasonably see as a betrayal by folk they thought were kindred spirits.

I've said it before: IMO a not bad strategy for the SNP would be to resolve that within a period of say two years of independence being declared the party would be dissolved having done its job, leaving its members and voters to gravitate to whatever political party best represents their views.

That would be portrayed by their opponents as them not sticking around to suffer the supposed consequences of independence.


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[lapsedhibee]

I've said it before: IMO a not bad strategy for the SNP would be to resolve that within a period of say two years of independence being declared the party would be dissolved having done its job, leaving its members and voters to gravitate to whatever political party best represents their views.
What if the SNP were the political party that best represented their views? :dunno:

[Cataplana]

Amen to that. Exactly the path the independence movement needs to take ... there are a lot of Labour voters out there who could be persuaded that independence isn't such a bad thing, especially watching some of the absolutely die hard Labour seats in England and Wales which went Tory on Thursday ... those Scottish Labour voters who have doggedly stuck with the party must despair at what they could reasonably see as a betrayal by folk they thought were kindred spirits.

I've said it before: IMO a not bad strategy for the SNP would be to resolve that within a period of say two years of independence being declared the party would be dissolved having done its job, leaving its members and voters to gravitate to whatever political party best represents their views.

It would be totally expected if different wings of the party broke off to form new parties.

[1875godsgift]

I’m not sure what the validity of a second referendum has to do with anything unless she actually said those words, as opposed to the words you quoted from the memoirs.

If she did say the words in the meme, then I will accept I am wrong. As I say, it doesn’t match up with anything I can ever recall reading or hearing her say, it simply doesn’t sound like her for a start.

I think the onus is on the person who posted it to back it up with some proper sourcing, otherwise it runs the risk of looking like a cheap Nat meme, designed to troll or misinform the poor Scottish voting public.

Like this?

https://www.google.com/search?q=brexit+bus+slogan&rlz=1C1JZAP_enGB755GB755&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=VHLWa6BulS62WM%253A%252C0ZK6SdMHBSa8-M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTxm_-xjq0mwNYwxHSpgzmqFRd31Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvk4-Nw7bmAhURTcAKHadfAaUQ9QEwAnoECAoQIA#imgrc=VHLWa6Bu lS62WM:

[NAE NOOKIE]

That would be portrayed by their opponents as them not sticking around to suffer the supposed consequences of independence.

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Or by others who are undecided about voting for independence because they don't like the SNP that voting for them is purely a pathway to independence rather than putting into power for all time a party they don't like .... There is at least anecdotal evidence that a fair number of folk still voting Labour are not against the idea of independence.


What if the SNP were the political party that best represented their views? :dunno:

Well, I suppose the SNP could re brand itself as something else and re enter the fray after a month or something :greengrin


It would be totally expected if different wings of the party broke off to form new parties.

That's the way I see it too. Many folk are in or vote for the SNP purely because its the only party apart from a few fringe ones that advocates independence and has a serious chance of achieving it. It's for that very reason that I believe more folk would vote for the SNP if it was unambiguously promoted as a vehicle for independence which will see its purpose as having been achieved once that goal is reached, with its constituent parts going their separate ways post indy.

[Cataplana]

Or by others who are undecided about voting for independence because they don't like the SNP that voting for them is purely a pathway to independence rather than putting into power for all time a party they don't like .... There is at least anecdotal evidence that a fair number of folk still voting Labour are not against the idea of independence.



Well, I suppose the SNP could re brand itself as something else and re enter the fray after a month or something :greengrin



That's the way I see it too. Many folk are in or vote for the SNP purely because its the only party apart from a few fringe ones that advocates independence and has a serious chance of achieving it. It's for that very reason that I believe more folk would vote for the SNP if it was unambiguously promoted as a vehicle for independence which will see its purpose as having been achieved once that goal is reached, with its constituent parts going their separate ways post indy.

The Shetland National Party would be opportune, and would save money on rebranding a lot of the stationery.

Not so sure they'd have much joy with self determination for Scrabster, or as the Stoneybridge National Party. However Shetland does have its own unique history, etc.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191215/487c7509a9c5d380a7963856dbdb2d46.png
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191215/335956c72cd6855a86e01b013dd300ae.jpg


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[CloudSquall]

Quite a few prominent Scottish Labour figures on Twitter are now saying that an indyref2 shouldn't be blocked, even if they are still against or undecided on the question of independence itself.

Maybe it's just noise but then again maybe that tipping point has finally been reached for many in the Scottish Labour party.

[Ozyhibby]

Quite a few prominent Scottish Labour figures on Twitter are now saying that an indyref2 shouldn't be blocked, even if they are still against or undecided on the question of independence itself.

Maybe it's just noise but then again maybe that tipping point has finally been reached for many in the Scottish Labour party.

It’s the only place the Scottish Labour Party can go. It’s where their base already is.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/16/snp-turns-focus-back-to-independence-after-election-boost?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
Good article on where we are at.


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[heretoday]

Quite a few prominent Scottish Labour figures on Twitter are now saying that an indyref2 shouldn't be blocked, even if they are still against or undecided on the question of independence itself.

Maybe it's just noise but then again maybe that tipping point has finally been reached for many in the Scottish Labour party.

It was Labour governments that proposed both devolution referenda back in the day.

Labour has nothing to reproach itself for when it comes to promoting Scottish self-government.

[weecounty hibby]

It was Labour governments that proposed both devolution referenda back in the day.

Labour has nothing to reproach itself for when it comes to promoting Scottish self-government.
The vow?! Standing shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in 2014. Leading the better together campaign with Darling. But yeah beyond reproach. I think people are now starting to see that the only way Scotland will see a Labour style government is in an independent country. I don't necessarily blame folk for voting Labour in the past but in the UK they won't see power for another 10 years.

[pollution]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.

[CloudSquall]

It was Labour governments that proposed both devolution referenda back in the day.

Labour has nothing to reproach itself for when it comes to promoting Scottish self-government.


In more recent times however they went full blown unionist which has helped see them collapse from 41 MPs to 1 MP who won on the back of a personal vote.

They got caught between the SNP and Tories and offered nothing apart from trying to out union Ruth Davidson and they got suckered for it.

[CloudSquall]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EL6q31qWwAAL5kP?format=jpg&name=small

[weecounty hibby]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.
Why does everyone discount the Green vote when counting these things? Maybe wouldn't have moved it too much but it is there. They are pro Indy as well. People forget that the independence movement is not the SNP. I have also seen loads of people saying they were definitely no in the past but have moved firmly to yes. Also when did we start to count non voters as a vote against something? They could just as easily have been pro Indy voters that didn't bother to vote.

[Cataplana]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.

By this logic, it should be a bigger concern that the Tories got an even lower share in England.

Are you saying that they don't actually have a mandate to get Brexit done.

[pollution]

By this logic, it should be a bigger concern that the Tories got an even lower share in England.

Are you saying that they don't actually have a mandate to get Brexit done.

Good point!


I am saying that there is no mandate for a second referendum in Scotland by these simple figures on this particular issue.

Not all Tory voters voted for Brexit, ditto SNP voters for independence.

[Cataplana]

Good point!


I am saying that there is no mandate for a second referendum in Scotland by these simple figures on this particular issue.

Not all Tory voters voted for Brexit, ditto SNP voters for independence.

So, are you also saying that Boris has no mandate to carry through his manifesto?

[Ozyhibby]

Good point!


I am saying that there is no mandate for a second referendum in Scotland by these simple figures on this particular issue.

Not all Tory voters voted for Brexit, ditto SNP voters for independence.

They have a mandate because the Scottish Parliament passed a bill requesting one.


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[CraigyHibee07]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.

Scotlands triple mandate against Brexit:

EU Ref 16
1,661,191 (62% Remain)
1,018,322 (38% Leave)

EU Election 19
1,119,149 (71.6% Remain Parties)
443,900 (28.4% Leave Parties)

UK Gen Election 19
2,045,757 (74.25% Remain Parties)
709,485 (25.75% Leave Parties)

Support for brexit in Scotland has gone from 38% in 2016 to 28.4% then to 25.75% in 2019.

Compared to the 2,001,926 people in Scotland that voted against independence in 2014, only 692,939 voted for the "no to indyref2" party in Scotland in this general election. (and that was of course before the UK tory brexit majority).

It'll be interesting to see what the next set of independence polls suggest.

[Peevemor]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.The hard facts are that you're comparing a yes/no referendum with a multiple choice general election and 2 different electorates.

But carry on if it comforts you.

[degenerated]

The hard facts is that you're comparing a yes/no referendum with a multiple choice general election and 2 different electorates.

But carry on if it comforts you.Using that logic then surely the case for the union could only be made by the three main unionist parties getting >75% of the vote share.

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[Peevemor]

Using that logic then surely the case for the union could only be made by the three main unionist parties getting >75% of the vote share.

Sent from my SM-G950F using TapatalkYeah, 10-15% more than the turnout. That'll be the postal vote effect.

[HibernianJK]

The 16/17 year old/EU national vote also not included in the GE. Was this not the highest Yes voting demographic?

[SHODAN]

The 16/17 year old/EU national vote also not included in the GE. Was this not the highest Yes voting demographic?

If I remember correctly, 16-24 was actually less Yes than 25-34.

[SHODAN]

If the next opinion poll doesn't show strong material change from No to Yes (ie outwith the margin of error) then it's going to be very difficult to force a referendum. If it's still No, the game is up.

[danhibees1875]

If the next opinion poll doesn't show strong material change from No to Yes (ie outwith the margin of error) then it's going to be very difficult to force a referendum. If it's still No, the game is up.

The game wouldn't be up, but I think the arguement to hold one so soon would be weakened.

Not that a one off poll (they sample about 1000 people right?) should be used to such a great extent either way regardless.

[ronaldo7]

It was Labour governments that proposed both devolution referenda back in the day.

Labour has nothing to reproach itself for when it comes to promoting Scottish self-government.

Apart from the Cunningham amendment in 79, when the 40% rule was introduced, and even in the last few weeks where, James Kelly was trying to introduce a 50% minimum vote amendment in the next indyref.

Nothing to reproach themselves about.

[Sylar]

If the next opinion poll doesn't show strong material change from No to Yes (ie outwith the margin of error) then it's going to be very difficult to force a referendum. If it's still No, the game is up.

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

[CloudSquall]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

I must have missed that Yes or No option on my ballot paper.

Plus I know of many Labour voters who would vote yes in a referendum but voted Labour due to their backing of Corbyn's ideas, it's not possible to say everyone who didn't vote SNP is a stick on No voter.

[Ozyhibby]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

How much longer will we be counting Labour as pro union? They seem a little less sure of themselves these days.


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[marinello59]

Yeah, 10-15% more than the turnout. That'll be the postal vote effect.


How much longer will we be counting Labour as pro union? They seem a little less sure of themselves these days.


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They don’t have to become Yes, they just have to back a referendum.

[SHODAN]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

I think the prospect of an unassailable Johnson majority for at least five years (probably ten) may have swung the vote further in the last few days.

Also, I imagine a significant proportion of pro-independence voters (particularly ones further left) will have voted Labour or Green.

[ronaldo7]

They don’t have to become Yes, they just have to back a referendum.

And there are lots of labour voters ready to put a cross in the yes box this time.

[JeMeSouviens]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

The GE results bear out recent 50/50 polling. The "normal" numbers for Yes vote by party are roughly 90% SNP, 30% Lab, 20% Lib, a handful of Cons. If you do the math I think that comes out about 50/50.

The interesting thing will be if the reality of Brexit happening causes a further shift. It may or may not have relevance but the big shift in 2014 from Lab to SNP only happened after the No vote in the indyref. It may be that some Remain/Nos have been holding onto hope that Brexit would be dashed (I'm Remain/Yes but didn't give up completely on Brexit cancellation until Thursday's exit poll). Some of those may be stronger Remain than they are No. Probably not many but a few % would put Yes in a clear lead.

[Hibbyradge]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

45% SNP plus 1% Green.

It's not too much too much of a stretch to think that the necessary 4.5% or so might come from people who voted Labour or Lib Dem.

After all, that only requires 2.25% of them to vote Yes.

Some pro-indy people will have voted tactically too.

[CloudSquall]

Also EU citizens couldn't vote in the GE and I imagine their collective vote on independence has swung from being strong No to strong Yes.

[JeMeSouviens]

45% SNP plus 1% Green.

It's not too much too much of a stretch to think that the necessary 4.5% or so might come from people who voted Labour or Lib Dem.

After all, that only requires 2.25% of them to vote Yes.

Some pro-indy people will have voted tactically too.

You can knock about 5% off the SNP figure but add 6% from Lab and 2% from the Libs.

[JeMeSouviens]

Also EU citizens couldn't vote in the GE and I imagine their collective vote on independence has swung from being strong No to strong Yes.

And 16-17 year olds will add 1 or 2% to the Yes figure.

[Smartie]

My mum is the most anti-independence person I know and she voted SNP at the election. She moaned and moaned about how awful the various choices were but in the end she was in a marginal constituency that had a Tory MP - but not any more. She voted tactically to get the Tory out and got her way.

I simply cannot see the day that she would ever vote in favour of independence, but if she is able to see the sense in voting SNP to keep out a Tory MP, surely it isn't too much of a stretch to get to voting "Yes" to prevent the possibility that the rest of her life is spent under a Tory government? I honestly never thought I'd see the day that I'd see a chink of light, however...

It is madness to read too much into the General Election result, for all of the reasons mentioned.

Equally though, anecdotal evidence and hunch just makes me feel that the momentum is going one way at the moment.

Why would anyone be changing their mind against independence right now? Scottish arch-brexiteers who believe in the tyranny of the EU, those who are stronger Brexiteers than they are "Yes" voters? Can't be many of them.

Compare that to the many people who have a pretty compelling reason to change from "No" to "Yes", and there has already been a bit of a thaw in the outlook of a number of fairly senior Scottish Labour figures.

[Ozyhibby]

My mum is the most anti-independence person I know and she voted SNP at the election. She moaned and moaned about how awful the various choices were but in the end she was in a marginal constituency that had a Tory MP - but not any more. She voted tactically to get the Tory out and got her way.

I simply cannot see the day that she would ever vote in favour of independence, but if she is able to see the sense in voting SNP to keep out a Tory MP, surely it isn't too much of a stretch to get to voting "Yes" to prevent the possibility that the rest of her life is spent under a Tory government? I honestly never thought I'd see the day that I'd see a chink of light, however...

It is madness to read too much into the General Election result, for all of the reasons mentioned.

Equally though, anecdotal evidence and hunch just makes me feel that the momentum is going one way at the moment.

Why would anyone be changing their mind against independence right now? Scottish arch-brexiteers who believe in the tyranny of the EU, those who are stronger Brexiteers than they are "Yes" voters? Can't be many of them.

Compare that to the many people who have a pretty compelling reason to change from "No" to "Yes", and there has already been a bit of a thaw in the outlook of a number of fairly senior Scottish Labour figures.

Possible hard border may be a problem but the Ireland situation helps. Whatever minimal checks Johnson says there is in the Irish Sea would just transfer to Carlisle.


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[Hibrandenburg]

If the next opinion poll doesn't show strong material change from No to Yes (ie outwith the margin of error) then it's going to be very difficult to force a referendum. If it's still No, the game is up.

To hold an opinion poll in higher esteem than 2 general elections, a Scottish Parliament election and a Brexit referendum when deciding if a mandate is there for another Indy Ref is just ****ing stupid.

[Bristolhibby]

Possible hard border may be a problem but the Ireland situation helps. Whatever minimal checks Johnson says there is in the Irish Sea would just transfer to Carlisle.


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Or we have a United Ireland before an Independent Scotland.

But yes, what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50822431?__twitter_impression=true

BBC getting ready for the next better together campaign.[emoji3]


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[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50822431?__twitter_impression=true

BBC getting ready for the next better together campaign.[emoji3]


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I don’t see much wrong with that to be honest.

[grunt]

I don’t see much wrong with that to be honest.


After Brexit, the UK could become better or worse off, depending on policy decisions and business activity.

Well, this, for a start.

[pollution]

The hard facts are that you're comparing a yes/no referendum with a multiple choice general election and 2 different electorates.

But carry on if it comforts you.




A bit cheeky that. I don't need lip: I knew this would happen.

[Peevemor]

A bit cheeky that. I don't need lip: I knew this would happen.What? That someone would question your "hard facts"?

What's cheeky is you trying to take people in with your ridiculous claims.

[marinello59]

Well, this, for a start.

Not so sure what’s wrong with that other than it being a bit bland. In the short term I believe we will be worse off. In the long term nobody really knows. You could replace Brexit with Independence in that sentence. There will be a short term cost to pay, the long term benefits will depend on decisions we make moving forward.

[pollution]

What? That someone would question your "hard facts"?

What's cheeky is you trying to take people in with your ridiculous claims.


My figures are correct I believe. Everyone can interpret them as they wish.

Your last sentence was a bit cheeky and condescending is my point.

[heretoday]

Apart from the Cunningham amendment in 79, when the 40% rule was introduced, and even in the last few weeks where, James Kelly was trying to introduce a 50% minimum vote amendment in the next indyref.

Nothing to reproach themselves about.

Seems fair. You're not seriously proposing to haul Scotland out of the UK on say a 51/49% split?

[grunt]

Not so sure what’s wrong with that other than it being a bit bland. In the short term I believe we will be worse off. In the long term nobody really knows. You could replace Brexit with Independence in that sentence. There will be a short term cost to pay, the long term benefits will depend on decisions we make moving forward.

No. EVERY economic forecaster with half a brain says that Brexit will be significantly negative in the short and medium terms. And I mean SIGNIFICANTLY, much worse than the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash. Even slime ball Rees Mogg said it would be 50 years before we see any benefits from brexit.

They are LYING to us.

And whatever happens with Independence, it will be up to us to deal with it, not some bunch in Westminster that we never voted for.

[marinello59]

No. EVERY economic forecaster with half a brain says that Brexit will be significantly negative in the short and medium terms. And I mean SIGNIFICANTLY, much worse than the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash. Even slime ball Rees Mogg said it would be 50 years before we see any benefits from brexit.

They are LYING to us.

And whatever happens with Independence, it will be up to us to deal with it, not some bunch in Westminster that we never voted for.

I forgot we had to play project fear with Brexit and believe every worst case analysis and condemn project fear with Independence as all will be milk and honey. :greengrin

[grunt]

Looking at the hard stats the SNP won 45% of the votes on Thursday last week, on a turn out of 68%.

That means 30% of the electorate voted for the SNP.

That is worse than the independence referendum itself.

Don't shout at me or curse me: these are hard facts. Correct me if I have miscounted here.

Jeepers. Just seen this.

"Here's some apples. Here's some oranges. This proves that apples are better than oranges."

[grunt]

I forgot we had to play project fear with Brexit and believe every worst case analysis and condemn project fear with Independence as all will be milk and honey. :greengrin

Swear word. Even the Government's OWN analysis shows that we will be worse off.

If someone goes to hospital and is told by the doctor they have cancer, should the patient respond with "project fear"?

Ffs.

[Ozyhibby]

Seems fair. You're not seriously proposing to haul Scotland out of the UK on say a 51/49% split?

Shouldn’t even need that. 50% +1 extra vote is enough. And no turnout stipulations.


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[grunt]

I forgot we had to play project fear with Brexit and believe every worst case analysis and condemn project fear with Independence as all will be milk and honey. :greengrin

Sorry I missed the second part of your reply.

And yes it's a good point. But for me the issue of independence has gone beyond the economic argument. I simply want nothing more to do with the racist xenophobia in the UK government.

[Peevemor]

Jeepers. Just seen this.

"Here's some apples. Here's some oranges. This proves that apples are better than oranges."Cheeky...

[marinello59]

Sorry I missed the second part of your reply.

And yes it's a good point. But for me the issue of independence has gone beyond the economic argument. I simply want nothing more to do with the racist xenophobia in the UK government.

That's where I am. We agree. :greengrin

[pollution]

Cheeky...






Good son.

[heretoday]

Shouldn’t even need that. 50% +1 extra vote is enough. And no turnout stipulations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good luck.

[CraigyHibee07]

The results from the recent General Election all but confirm there hasn't been enough of a swing from No to Yes.

The SNP were absolutely the winners in Scotland, but cumulatively, more people voted for pro-Union parties than did the SNP, and I would imagine a reasonable number of people who DID vote for the SNP in this recent election would still not vote for Independence (as Sturgeon herself accepted last week).

Cumulatively, 74% of people in Scotland voted for pro-remain parties than they did for the Tory brexit agenda. Cumulatively, 57% of the UK as a whole voted against the tory brexit agenda.

But hey, we're still getting Brexit anyway with a whopping tory majority at Westminster.

If the % representation of votes aren't taken into account at Westminster, then it shouldn't suddenly matter in Scotland either. If 43% is good enough to drag the whole of the UK out of the EU, then 45% is good enough for Scotland to have another independence referendum.

[CraigyHibee07]

And 16-17 year olds will add 1 or 2% to the Yes figure.

and EU migrants. There's another 2-3% right there.

[CraigyHibee07]

Margaret Thatcher 1979 = 44% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Margaret Thatcher 1983 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Margaret Thatcher 1987 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
John Major 1992 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 1997 = 43% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 2001 = 41% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 2005 = 35% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
David Cameron 2010 = 36% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
David Cameron 2015 = 37% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Theresa May 2017 = 42.4% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Boris Johnson 2019 = 43.6% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wants)


Nicola Sturgeon 2019 = 45% of Scottish vote (There is no mandate)

[ronaldo7]

Seems fair. You're not seriously proposing to haul Scotland out of the UK on say a 51/49% split?

What seems fair?

Labour introduced the 40% threshold of all voters entitled to vote, where those not bothering to vote would be deemed a no vote.

This time, Kelly wanted it at 50% of those entitled to vote.

Gerrymandering springs to mind.

On your question, just +1 will do.

[lucky]

It should be the Scottish Parliament that decides if we have referendums. I support the right of the Scottish people to decide but I’m still not convinced on the merits of independence

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191217/d03bf1c57f4b4bd81d332dd2f91cfc24.jpg

Looking at those figures, it looks like being in the union is very expensive for us.


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[Hibbyradge]

Well, this, for a start.

That's true, isn't it?

[JeMeSouviens]

That's true, isn't it?

I agree with grunt, a "Brexit boost" to the economy is Bertrand Russell's teapot for our times. :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

I agree with grunt, a "Brexit boost" to the economy is Bertrand Russell's teapot for our times. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure that we'll be able to disprove the concept of a Brexit boost soon enough. Unfortunately.

[One Day Soon]

Seems fair. You're not seriously proposing to haul Scotland out of the UK on say a 51/49% split?


Hardcore Nationalists - which is pretty much all members - would take Scotland out of the UK on 50% plus 1. Many would like to do it without the tiresome need for a referendum - just look at social media for that.

An independent Scotland would face another 10 years of austerity just to get back to where it started the day before independence. That's fine if it's what people want - nuts, but fine. To think it would be a good idea to strike out on that path with the country divided internally on essentially a 50/50 vote is bonkers.

[One Day Soon]

I agree with grunt, a "Brexit boost" to the economy is Bertrand Russell's teapot for our times. :rolleyes:


Brexit boost is pretty wild as contentions go. However the impact of reverse also seems pretty dubious as a political factor in the short term. I very much doubt there will be overnight carnage with Brexit, more like a slower burn economic degradation in terms of not making the gains we would otherwise have made as EU members.

[Smartie]

Hardcore Nationalists - which is pretty much all members - would take Scotland out of the UK on 50% plus 1. Many would like to do it without the tiresome need for a referendum - just look at social media for that.

An independent Scotland would face another 10 years of austerity just to get back to where it started the day before independence. That's fine if it's what people want - nuts, but fine. To think it would be a good idea to strike out on that path with the country divided internally on essentially a 50/50 vote is bonkers.

Can you think of any set of circumstances where that difficult 10 years might be worth it in the long run?

Do you have total faith in our relationship with the rest of the UK and in the decisions that the UK makes as a whole that we can only ever be better remaining part of the UK?

As presumably a Labour man, how much Tory government in Scotland can you tolerate before breaking, and how right wing British nationalist does that government need to be before you contemplate a bit of austerity to get to potentially a better place?

[Ozyhibby]

Hardcore Nationalists - which is pretty much all members - would take Scotland out of the UK on 50% plus 1. Many would like to do it without the tiresome need for a referendum - just look at social media for that.

An independent Scotland would face another 10 years of austerity just to get back to where it started the day before independence. That's fine if it's what people want - nuts, but fine. To think it would be a good idea to strike out on that path with the country divided internally on essentially a 50/50 vote is bonkers.

As a unionist can you tell me why Scotland has a much smaller economy than Denmark, Norway or Ireland? Three countries with similar populations? It seems strange that we should be so far behind if we have the union dividend over the last 300 years?
That question never seems to get answered by unionists?


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[Moulin Yarns]

My wife has just had an hour long chat with a friend. They have not discussed politics for the last 5 years as they have different opinions on independence. The friend's family are all season ticket holders at Ibrox, and today the friend said they will be yes if another referendum is held.

[Moulin Yarns]

Overhead on a Lothian bus.



“We subsidise YOU LOT to the tune of £1000 each per year!” A rankled senior man on Lothian Bus today on realising he couldn’t use his English bus pass. I’ve empathy for that, yes. But the retort to the driver (who took a *deep* breath) revealed something else. We?! You?!

Jings.

[The Modfather]

Hardcore Nationalists - which is pretty much all members - would take Scotland out of the UK on 50% plus 1. Many would like to do it without the tiresome need for a referendum - just look at social media for that.

An independent Scotland would face another 10 years of austerity just to get back to where it started the day before independence. That's fine if it's what people want - nuts, but fine. To think it would be a good idea to strike out on that path with the country divided internally on essentially a 50/50 vote is bonkers.

What is a “hardcore nationalist” and all members of what? The SNP? I think your tone is poor, independence means many different things to different people and has supporters across all political parties. The vast majority of the current debate is around whether there is a mandate for a second referendum. 50% +1 should be enough to win the vote regardless of whether it was a yes or a no outcome. If a yes vote was to win, and in subsequent elections a party campaigning on a new referendum to re-join the union was to win a majority then that’s what should happen as what the country has voted for.

You talk about Scotland facing an initial 10 years of austerity post independence, maybe so. However is that opposed to the current austerity? Or opposed to the probable post Brexit austerity?

[Moulin Yarns]

Margaret Thatcher 1979 = 44% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Margaret Thatcher 1983 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Margaret Thatcher 1987 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
John Major 1992 = 42% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 1997 = 43% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 2001 = 41% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Tony Blair 2005 = 35% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
David Cameron 2010 = 36% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
David Cameron 2015 = 37% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wanted)
Theresa May 2017 = 42.4% of UK vote (mandate to do what she wanted)
Boris Johnson 2019 = 43.6% of UK vote (mandate to do what he wants)


Nicola Sturgeon 2019 = 45% of Scottish vote (There is no mandate)




But murdo fraser says otherwise.

Welcome to Scotland.
The only country* in the world where 45% = a majority.
(*except North Korea)

[One Day Soon]

Can you think of any set of circumstances where that difficult 10 years might be worth it in the long run? Not immediately, but let's see what happens in the next few years of this government. Responding to the ten years of austerity we've just experienced with an answer that proposes another ten years of exactly the same doesn't seem attractive. If, however, Scottish Government of whatever complexion were able to develop higher growth in the Scottish economy and reduce the very large gap between spending and revenues then a break would become much less of an unpredictable risk than it would be currently.

Do you have total faith in our relationship with the rest of the UK and in the decisions that the UK makes as a whole that we can only ever be better remaining part of the UK?

On balance yes. There are negatives and positives.

As presumably a Labour man, how much Tory government in Scotland can you tolerate before breaking, and how right wing British nationalist does that government need to be before you contemplate a bit of austerity to get to potentially a better place?

I am a politically homeless, card-carrying Labour Party member. We don't have Tory government in Scotland, we have SNP government. We have a Tory UK government - and I can see the difference and the joins between the two. I, like you presumably, take a long term view of politics when framed in a constitutional context so I can see a UK political value that goes beyond the current Tory government. I'm also not rose tinted enough to think that an independent Scotland couldn't have Tory governments - in fact independence makes that more likely, not less.


None of the above however addresses the point I was making. Striking out on independence with a split country would be a very, very bad idea. I suspect that, to their credit, Sturgeon and a number others in the SNP leadership realise this, which is why they are playing the longer game in spite of what the hairier parts of the membership want.

[Moulin Yarns]

Enjoy


#GiftAGamer #ThisistheRealSpain #Tsunamidemocratic It’s time to move forward in the path of freedom!

https://t.co/hIpeTCIbiS

Performance in San Sebastian (Basque Country) for Scotland and Catalonia
@NicolaSturgeon

[One Day Soon]

Overhead on a Lothian bus.



“We subsidise YOU LOT to the tune of £1000 each per year!” A rankled senior man on Lothian Bus today on realising he couldn’t use his English bus pass. I’ve empathy for that, yes. But the retort to the driver (who took a *deep* breath) revealed something else. We?! You?!

Jings.

I agree. Unfortunately it's a tone that is mirrored on the other side toward the rUK/England very often too. Fortunately it's a minority sport generally on both sides and the dickheads who manifest it tend to represent themselves only.

[One Day Soon]

As a unionist can you tell me why Scotland has a much smaller economy than Denmark, Norway or Ireland? Three countries with similar populations? It seems strange that we should be so far behind if we have the union dividend over the last 300 years?
That question never seems to get answered by unionists?


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Probably because it depends on a whole heap of counterfactuals. Is there any economic analysis out there that addresses your question?

[One Day Soon]

What is a “hardcore nationalist” and all members of what? The SNP? I think your tone is poor, independence means many different things to different people and has supporters across all political parties. The vast majority of the current debate is around whether there is a mandate for a second referendum. 50% +1 should be enough to win the vote regardless of whether it was a yes or a no outcome. If a yes vote was to win, and in subsequent elections a party campaigning on a new referendum to re-join the union was to win a majority then that’s what should happen as what the country has voted for.

You talk about Scotland facing an initial 10 years of austerity post independence, maybe so. However is that opposed to the current austerity? Or opposed to the probable post Brexit austerity?


By hardcore nationalists I mean people who don't just vote SNP but who have also joined the party. I don't think that's an unreasonable description and it's certainly not pejorative.

I don't think my tone is poor but I do think - especially in the current social media climate - adherents of various political projects become very sensitive about any opposition and extremely defensive of any criticism of 'their' side.

I'm aware of the current debate and we'll all have time enough to choke on that endless standoff. My point is that 50% + 1 in a referendum would be a phyrric victory, for either side in fact. The recent hell of the post Brexit result has demonstrated that. Politics isn't just about winning or losing the war of votes, it's also about winning or losing the peace of what comes next.

[Ozyhibby]

Probably because it depends on a whole heap of counterfactuals. Is there any economic analysis out there that addresses your question?

So no answer then?


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[One Day Soon]

So no answer then?


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Are you too lazy to go and look?

Here's a starter on the theme, I'm sure there will be much more out there: https://www.insider.co.uk/news/scotland-economy-gdp-reform-scotland-12658252

I doubt very much that the answer to your question lies in one area - independence. That may be part of it but there will be a range of other economic and social factors at work. If you are hoping to find an economist or economic historian on .net capable of giving an authoritative specialist answer on Scottish economic growth vis-a-vis Denmark, Ireland and Norway in the last 100 years I think you may be disappointed.

If there is empirical analysis I'd like to see it, I'm no bigger a fan of 'because baaaaaaad Britain' than I am of 'baaaaad independence'.

[Ozyhibby]

Are you too lazy to go and look?

The answer is that all the investment in the UK gets directed to the south of England by the UK government.
I was hoping unionists would be able to tell me different and that they have a plan to change this?


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[One Day Soon]

The answer is that all the investment in the UK gets directed to the south of England by the UK government.
I was hoping unionists would be able to tell me different and that they have a plan to change this?


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I don't have an answer to what is a transparently false and trite straw man.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't have an answer to what is a transparently false and trite straw man.

I know you have no answer. Guess we just need to accept our place as the poor relations of these other small Northern European nations.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I know you have no answer. Guess we just need to accept our place as the poor relations of these other small Northern European nations.


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No we don't need to accept this at all.

[JeMeSouviens]

The answer is that all the investment in the UK gets directed to the south of England by the UK government.
I was hoping unionists would be able to tell me different and that they have a plan to change this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scottish Unionists (largely) don't want to change this. As long as the UK earns enough money then it doesn't matter where it gets earned. If Scotland is heavily reliant on rUK funding, so much the better. Where would they be without a multi-£Bn fiscal gap?

[One Day Soon]

I know you have no answer. Guess we just need to accept our place as the poor relations of these other small Northern European nations.


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You seem to lack an answer yourself - other than the power of assertion.

But we could - right now - do some or all of what is suggested in the referenced article I posted and/or in the Andrew Wilson Growth Commission paper to foster growth. It doesn't take independence to get to work on that.

Your own contention doesn't even make sense. Government - whether UK or Scottish - doesn't 'direct' private sector investment. In terms of what the public sector can do to attract inward investment we make our own decisions on what we do with Barnett consequential funding and increasingly now the revenues at our disposal will relate to whether and how we drive growth.

[Callum_62]

Why are folk scared of independance?

I really don't get it, particularly given the state of the UK the last few years

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[Moulin Yarns]

You seem to lack an answer yourself - other than the power of assertion.

But we could - right now - do some or all of what is suggested in the referenced article I posted and/or in the Andrew Wilson Growth Commission paper to foster growth. It doesn't take independence to get to work on that.

Your own contention doesn't even make sense. Government - whether UK or Scottish - doesn't 'direct' private sector investment. In terms of what the public sector can do to attract inward investment we make our own decisions on what we do with Barnett consequential funding and increasingly now the revenues at our disposal will relate to whether and how we drive growth.

I think that given the choice it would be better to work for ourselves and keep everything that Scotland earned rather than to work for others and have to pay a dividend for the privilege.

[Ozyhibby]

You seem to lack an answer yourself - other than the power of assertion.

But we could - right now - do some or all of what is suggested in the referenced article I posted and/or in the Andrew Wilson Growth Commission paper to foster growth. It doesn't take independence to get to work on that.

Your own contention doesn't even make sense. Government - whether UK or Scottish - doesn't 'direct' private sector investment. In terms of what the public sector can do to attract inward investment we make our own decisions on what we do with Barnett consequential funding and increasingly now the revenues at our disposal will relate to whether and how we drive growth.

Doesn’t the growth commission recommend a more open migration policy? How can we do that?


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[One Day Soon]

Scottish Unionists (largely) don't want to change this. As long as the UK earns enough money then it doesn't matter where it gets earned. If Scotland is heavily reliant on rUK funding, so much the better. Where would they be without a multi-£Bn fiscal gap?

On the contrary, Scottish Unionists are just as capable as Nationalists of having their cake and eating it on this one.

Scotland does well in the Union: Unionists - it's because of the strength of the Union, don't throw it away. Nationalists - it's because of the strength of Scottish Government, think how much more we could do with independence.

Scotland does badly in the Union: Unionists - the Scottish Government is failing, we'd be much worse off apart. Nationalists - we'd be much worse off if it wasn't for the Scottish Government, we'd do so much better if we were separate.

You would think it would be in the interests of the SNP and fellow travellers to go all out for growth. There must be statistics or respectable academic analysis on how we have performed on growth since the advent of devolution?

Without the multi-billion fiscal gap, the flip-flopping lack of a workable answer on currency and the uncertainty over EU membership and terms, where they (unionists like me) would be is a lot closer to a pro-indy position. If the numbers don't stack up nothing else does.

[One Day Soon]

Why are folk scared of independance?

I really don't get it, particularly given the state of the UK the last few years

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I don't think its fear, I think its cold hard logic.

[One Day Soon]

I think that given the choice it would be better to work for ourselves and keep everything that Scotland earned rather than to work for others and have to pay a dividend for the privilege.

Not sure I understand who you think we are working for and what dividend we are paying?

[Ozyhibby]

On the contrary, Scottish Unionists are just as capable as Nationalists of having their cake and eating it on this one.

Scotland does well in the Union: Unionists - it's because of the strength of the Union, don't throw it away. Nationalists - it's because of the strength of Scottish Government, think how much more we could do with independence.

Scotland does badly in the Union: Unionists - the Scottish Government is failing, we'd be much worse off apart. Nationalists - we'd be much worse off if it wasn't for the Scottish Government, we'd do so much better if we were separate.

You would think it would be in the interests of the SNP and fellow travellers to go all out for growth. There must be statistics or respectable academic analysis on how we have performed on growth since the advent of devolution?

Without the multi-billion fiscal gap, the flip-flopping lack of a workable answer on currency and the uncertainty over EU membership and terms, where they (unionists like me) would be is a lot closer to a pro-indy position. If the numbers don't stack up nothing else does.

How could the SNP go all out for growth? Cut corporation tax?


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[Ozyhibby]

I don't think its fear, I think its cold hard logic.

I think it’s a bit illogical to just accept that we should be poorer than all the countries around us.


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[One Day Soon]

Doesn’t the growth commission recommend a more open migration policy? How can we do that?


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I think that may be one of it's conclusions. It's a while since I've read it or the commentaries upon it. In any event Brexit doesn't prevent us from encouraging inward migration - the other nations of the UK offer us a 60 million person target group for that.

In the meantime we should press on with getting the profile of our spending and taxation decisions right to encourage growth and that inward private investment you want.

Unfortunately current Scottish taxation policy is slightly at odds with what is likely to assist with that. Comparator small countries have been reducing their top rate of personal tax. We have put ours up in Scotland, higher than the rest of the UK. Good for virtue signalling and perhaps public expenditure depending upon how much it raises but not so good for growth promotion. An interesting decision anyway, I would have thought that cutting the top rate would have brought in a tidy amount of additional income as UK high earners relocated their tax addresses to Scotland to benefit from a lower rate...

[One Day Soon]

How could the SNP go all out for growth? Cut corporation tax?


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You might want to address that question to them or one of their adherents on here as they certainly seem to believe they can do it.

[One Day Soon]

I think it’s a bit illogical to just accept that we should be poorer than all the countries around us.


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Why is it always the Nationalists who come out with this 'too wee, to poor' line? Our baseline should be split between how are we doing compared to other small countries and how are we doing compared to our own previous performance. Scottish Government believes much better performance on growth is possible under the status quo according to its own policy statements on its own website.

It is illogical to ignore the facts on Scotland's deficit, the currency question and EU membership and those are the key challenges for the leaders of pro-independence positions to address.

[lapsedhibee]

I think that may be one of it's conclusions. It's a while since I've read it or the commentaries upon it. In any event Brexit doesn't prevent us from encouraging inward migration - the other nations of the UK offer us a 60 million person target group for that.

Come on.

[Ozyhibby]

Why is it always the Nationalists who come out with this 'too wee, to poor' line? Our baseline should be split between how are we doing compared to other small countries and how are we doing compared to our own previous performance. Scottish Government believes much better performance on growth is possible under the status quo according to its own policy statements on its own website.

It is illogical to ignore the facts on Scotland's deficit, the currency question and EU membership and those are the key challenges for the leaders of pro-independence positions to address.

I’m most certainly not saying ‘too wee, too poor’, in fact the exact opposite. I’m saying that given the correct powers and direct focus on Scotland we can grow our economy to be as big as Ireland’s, Denmark’s or Norway’s. It’s never going to happen though if we are waiting on Westminster doing it for us.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The answer is that all the investment in the UK gets directed to the south of England by the UK government.
I was hoping unionists would be able to tell me different and that they have a plan to change this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can you back that up with facts and not soundbites?

I don't want to hear Crossrail blah blah blah :greengrin

[J-C]

Not sure I understand who you think we are working for and what dividend we are paying?

Maybe due to the fact we only recieve 43% of all monies raised in taxation, imagine what we could do if we kept the full 100%. I think GDP for the UK last year was around £620 billion, with Scotland at £180 billion, not too shabby for a country that is around 1/10th of the UK population.

[Ozyhibby]

Can you back that up with facts and not soundbites?

I don't want to hear Crossrail blah blah blah :greengrin

I should have worded that better. Investment goes to where power is. If a foreign company wants to supply Scotland’s 5m consumers they will base themselves near London because that is where decisions get made and regulators are based. There are very few foreign companies who set up head offices outside of London.
London is an amazing success story for the UK but it is also so big that it’s gravitational pull on investment hurts the rest of the UK in a way that doesn’t happen with Paris, Berlin etc.
More powers based at Holyrood would soon attract its own eco system that would attract investment the way Dublin now does.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-majority-of-scots-believe-there-should-be-an-indyref2-1-5064385/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Poll shows majority now in favour of Indyref 2.[emoji106]


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-majority-of-scots-believe-there-should-be-an-indyref2-1-5064385/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Poll shows majority now in favour of Indyref 2.[emoji106]


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Do we take it as read that the majority of people back Indyref 2, so that there is another opportunity to vote for independence or are there any people who want a second vote to reaffirm a no vote for the second and perhaps final time.

[Callum_62]

Do we take it as read that the majority of people back Indyref 2, so that there is another opportunity to vote for independence or are there any people who want a second vote to reaffirm a no vote for the second and perhaps final time.I'd back independance but more so the chance for people to have a say, one way or the other

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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79229764_3199181093432356_90656455992016896_n.jpg? _nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQkWnN3T8rIgA1VBr88zRDCFchRcMkUKRLgg7MR***Y YxIMPT1oDlUxS79JDF4BFI-o&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=4c21ae23c7e6567ef542fda765dd0bd3&oe=5E7DE693


go blow goats murray you little pluke

[Moulin Yarns]

In any event Brexit doesn't prevent us from encouraging inward migration - the other nations of the UK offer us a 60 million person target group for that.

...


Or we could encourage inward migration from people who might actually want to come to an open and inclusive Scotland because there is an employment market of 7.8 billion people in the rest of the world, why limit the possibilities for Scotland to just the people in the rest of the UK.

Such a shame to exclude people with skills who we need.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-majority-of-scots-believe-there-should-be-an-indyref2-1-5064385/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Poll shows majority now in favour of Indyref 2.[emoji106]


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I don't think that was a proper poll. It was one of YouGov's "daily questions" which I think is just a self selecting web poll, so probably not a properly weighted sample.

[CraigyHibee07]

In any event Brexit doesn't prevent us from encouraging inward migration - the other nations of the UK offer us a 60 million person target group for that.

It's the skill gap we need to fill. English born residents simply don't fill enough of those gaps. They are no better placed to fill these gaps than people born here in Scotland. We need migration from further a field from people in European countries that actually invest in their youth.

[marinello59]

It's the skill gap we need to fill. English born residents simply don't fill enough of those gaps. They are no better placed to fill these gaps than people born here in Scotland. We need migration from further a field from people in European countries that actually invest in their youth.

So the Scottish Government has caused a skills gap by failing to invest in our youth? Which industries do you think we have significant skills gaps in and how do you think we could improve things?

[CraigyHibee07]

So the Scottish Government has caused a skills gap by failing to invest in our youth? Which industries do you think we have significant skills gaps in and how do you think we could improve things?

No. The UK Government has failed to invest in youth in England and Wales. Had they bothered to do so, Scotland would have recieved a greater share of it's own tax revenue back through barnett consequentials which would have given the Scottish Government more money to invest in a youth skill development fund.

We certainly appear to have a serious skills gap in the NHS. The brexit vote alone has led to a fall in skilled staffing availability which has led to public money going to private contractors instead to try and fill the void. We're seeing this in NHS services right across the UK.

[SHODAN]

Help to buy scheme introduced, up to 25k equity share for all first time buyers.

[ronaldo7]

Carers received their second extra £226 payment this week from the Scottish government.

Every little helps. 👍

[marinello59]

No. The UK Government has failed to invest in youth in England and Wales. Had they bothered to do so, Scotland would have recieved a greater share of it's own tax revenue back through barnett consequentials which would have given the Scottish Government more money to invest in a youth skill development fund.

We certainly appear to have a serious skills gap in the NHS. The brexit vote alone has led to a fall in skilled staffing availability which has led to public money going to private contractors instead to try and fill the void. We're seeing this in NHS services right across the UK.

I was going to say in my original reply to you please try and respond without mentioning the NHS. :greengrin
Yes, the NHS faces problems all over the UK and Brexit is not helping. There's been a failure to recruit and train enough new entrants for decades. Thankfully the Scottish Government retained student nurse bursaries and with free University education the situation is better up here than in England and Wales. More does need to be done to retain the staff we have though.

[marinello59]

Help to buy scheme introduced, up to 25k equity share for all first time buyers.


Carers received their second extra £226 payment this week from the Scottish government.

Every little helps. 👍

Two welcome initiatives that you could argue do more to demonstrate the benefits of devolution than push the case for Independence. :greengrin

[Cataplana]

I was going to say in my original reply to you please try and respond without mentioning the NHS. :greengrin
Yes, the NHS faces problems all over the UK and Brexit is not helping. There's been a failure to recruit and train enough new entrants for decades. Thankfully the Scottish Government retained student nurse bursaries and with free University education the situation is better up here than in England and Wales. More does need to be done to retain the staff we have though.

It's the failure to retain people once they are employed, as you say. Salaries have been static for 10 years.

[SHODAN]

Two welcome initiatives that you could argue do more to demonstrate the benefits of devolution than push the case for Independence. :greengrin

Shush! :greengrin

I'm treating this more as a generic "Scotland politics" thread now and the scheme I cited is one that benefits me directly and that I'll almost certainly be using (if I don't leave the country).

[ronaldo7]

Two welcome initiatives that you could argue do more to demonstrate the benefits of devolution than push the case for Independence. :greengrin

I can't remember getting these benefits from 1999-2007 under the labour/lib dems Alliance.

Just as well we have an SNP government pushing for more powers, so we can benefit those who live in Scotland.

Surely, labour/conservatives did this in the UK, when they were in power.

Maybe they just don't want to use the powers they have. 😆

[ronaldo7]

I was going to say in my original reply to you please try and respond without mentioning the NHS. :greengrin
Yes, the NHS faces problems all over the UK and Brexit is not helping. There's been a failure to recruit and train enough new entrants for decades. Thankfully the Scottish Government retained student nurse bursaries and with free University education the situation is better up here than in England and Wales. More does need to be done to retain the staff we have though.

How about immigration policy being devolved, so we can look after our own numbers.

[marinello59]

Help to buy scheme introduced, up to 25k equity share for all first time buyers.


How about immigration policy being devolved, so we can look after our own numbers.

It should be. It won’t be.

[grunt]

So the Scottish Government has caused a skills gap by failing to invest in our youth? Which industries do you think we have significant skills gaps in and how do you think we could improve things?It's not just about skills, it's more to do with the demographic deficit. Scotland has an ageing population, and we're not producing enough new Scots to fill the gap. So we need to turn to immigration, at a time when the English Government wants to stop all those foreigners coming in. Without immigration, Scotland's productivity will continue to decline, causing problems across the board (taxes, health, carers, education, social and public services etc).

[grunt]

It should be. It won’t be.i refer you to the subject of the thread.

[ronaldo7]

It should be. It won’t be.

If only another way was possible. 😳

It's like someone's holding us back.

[marinello59]

I can't remember getting these benefits from 1999-2007 under the labour/lib dems Alliance.

Just as well we have an SNP government pushing for more powers, so we can benefit those who live in Scotland.

Surely, labour/conservatives did this in the UK, when they were in power.

Maybe they just don't want to use the powers they have. 😆

So you aren’t arguing for Independence. You just want to tell us how utterly wonderful you think the SNP are. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

So you aren’t arguing for Independence. You just want to tell us how utterly wonderful you think the SNP are. :greengrin

I can do both. 👍

It's time you got onboard. 😆

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50856660

This should be fun! 😉 (In a bit of festive season devilment type of a way).

[marinello59]

If only another way was possible. 😳

It's like someone's holding us back.

Well we both agree that having control over our Immigration policy is one of the benefits of Independence.
In the meantime we are going to have to deal with the reality of a post Brexit UK wide policy. Westminster has announced a fast track scheme for qualified doctors and nurses which i suppose is good news but lets see how it goes first. Hopefully our Westminster reps will be pushing for some concessions for Scotland if we go down the points based route in recognition of our particular needs.

[marinello59]

I can do both. 👍

It's time you got onboard. 😆

Im happily onboard with Independence , have been for decades now. The SNP? No thanks.

[Peevemor]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50856660

This should be fun! 😉 (In a bit of festive season devilment type of a way).

Crikey! Something very dodgy somewhere.

[ronaldo7]

Im happily onboard with Independence , have been for decades now. The SNP? No thanks.

Thought you might have joined recently. Big surge in applications. 👍😲

[marinello59]

Thought you might have joined recently. Big surge in applications. 👍😲

I'll happily watch the flock from afar. :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

Crikey! Something very dodgy somewhere.

Quashed as a miscarriage of justice doesn't mean innocent! Although she is politically on the same side of the fence as me I cannot abide stealing. Especially stealing from your own or the most needy!!

[marinello59]

Quashed as a miscarriage of justice doesn't mean innocent! Although she is politically on the same side of the fence as me I cannot abide stealing. Especially stealing from your own or the most needy!!

She is facing a retrial so innocent until proven guilty.

[weecounty hibby]

She is facing a retrial so innocent until proven guilty.
I predict that it will go the same way as the first trial. As I say can't stand stealing, but you're correct. Innocent until proven guilty, twice!

[heretoday]

Nicola should wait a couple of years before going for the referendum. By then, the old farts like me who voted No will have died off and she'll be quids in. Her haste to strike while the iron is hot might be a mistake.

[Callum_62]

My dad's convinced he heard on hardtalk this morning that Scotland now has the legal power to hold indyref - he's convinced a tory party mp said as much on the show

I told him he's mastaken but he's adamant that's the case

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Nicola should wait a couple of years before going for the referendum. By then, the old farts like me who voted No will have died off and she'll be quids in. Her haste to strike while the iron is hot might be a mistake.

There is no way she wants the referendum next year, the figures aren’t safe yet. It is highly unlikely to happen until after the next Holyrood election. We are just watching the initial moves just now.

[Hibrandenburg]

My dad's convinced he heard on hardtalk this morning that Scotland now has the legal power to hold indyref - he's convinced a tory party mp said as much on the show

I told him he's mastaken but he's adamant that's the case

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

There was an evening sitting in parliament a good while back where mostly the SNP were in attendance. The meeting was about the Claim of Right for Scotland as agreed in Westminster in 1989 and in Holyrood 2012. The SNP might have used it to sneakily push something through parliament that went completely under the radar. I think we might be hearing more about this soon.

[Pretty Boy]

What's the Twitter spat ongoing between a couple of fairly prominent Yes supporters all about? Marky Booth, who may or may not exist, and Cameron Archibald?

You can almost guarantee when a few people involved in grassroots politics get a sniff of both power and getting what they want that they will find a way to self destruct.

[Callum_62]

Once in a generation

https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1073359279883735040?s=09

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[marinello59]

What's the Twitter spat ongoing between a couple of fairly prominent Yes supporters all about? Marky Booth, who may or may not exist, and Cameron Archibald?

You can almost guarantee when a few people involved in grassroots politics get a sniff of both power and getting what they want that they will find a way to self destruct.

That’s an interesting read from Archibald. It gives Wag Wars a run for its money. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

What's the Twitter spat ongoing between a couple of fairly prominent Yes supporters all about? Marky Booth, who may or may not exist, and Cameron Archibald?

You can almost guarantee when a few people involved in grassroots politics get a sniff of both power and getting what they want that they will find a way to self destruct.

Just seen this on twitter


Sorry to ruin the fun folks, but the user @MarkyBooth97 is actually a scammer called Michael Wright who has lied to you all.

Indy supporters who have donated to him have done so under false pretences. Time to call him out.

https://t.co/aDwehxCbN8

[bawheid]

Just seen this on twitter


Sorry to ruin the fun folks, but the user @MarkyBooth97 is actually a scammer called Michael Wright who has lied to you all.

Indy supporters who have donated to him have done so under false pretences. Time to call him out.

https://t.co/aDwehxCbN8

Look like the Indy movement has their very own Irvine Jambo.

[CloudSquall]

Just seen this on twitter


Sorry to ruin the fun folks, but the user @MarkyBooth97 is actually a scammer called Michael Wright who has lied to you all.

Indy supporters who have donated to him have done so under false pretences. Time to call him out.

https://t.co/aDwehxCbN8


Imagine being the poor guy in the US who has no idea his photos are being used for an account like that which is currently top news in the Scottish Indy Twitter world:greengrin

[Peevemor]

Look like the Indy movement has their very own Irvine Jambo.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turned out to be the same person. The similarities are uncanny.

[SHODAN]

Alister Jack on Radio Scotland pretty much saying absolutely nothing (majority of seats in UK or Scottish Parliament, or consistent support of 60%+ in opinion polls) is a mandate for a referendum, ever.

[Ozyhibby]

Alister Jack on Radio Scotland pretty much saying absolutely nothing (majority of seats in UK or Scottish Parliament, or consistent support of 60%+ in opinion polls) is a mandate for a referendum, ever.

BBC started talking about a 60% figure yesterday morning and I wondered where they got that from? Now I’m wondering if it’s co-ordinated.


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[marinello59]

BBC started talking about a 60% figure yesterday morning and I wondered where they got that from? Now I’m wondering if it’s co-ordinated.


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Wasn’t 60% supposedly the figure Sturgeon wanted to see the polls at before having another referendum? She certainly doesn’t want it right now based on the current figures, there is still a risk of losing.

[danhibees1875]

BBC started talking about a 60% figure yesterday morning and I wondered where they got that from? Now I’m wondering if it’s co-ordinated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I posted last week that gathering momentum and taking 60%+ at the polls eventually would be a better way of achieving independence. Presumably the Tories and BBC have just stolen it from me. :agree:

[USAHibby]

Alister Jack on Radio Scotland pretty much saying absolutely nothing (majority of seats in UK or Scottish Parliament, or consistent support of 60%+ in opinion polls) is a mandate for a referendum, ever. Perhaps somebody should inform Alister Jack that there is already a pro-independence majority at Holyrood and has been since 2016. They voted through a mandate in 2017 and have just voted through the legislative process for handing referenda powers over to the Scottish Parliament yesterday. It amazes me how stupid they think people are.

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps somebody should inform Alister Jack that there is already a pro-independence majority at Holyrood and has been since 2016. They voted through a mandate in 2017 and have just voted through the legislative process for handing referenda powers over to the Scottish Parliament yesterday. It amazes me how stupid they think people are.
Lying works. He's just following a highly successful party policy.

[SHODAN]

Lying works. He's just following a highly successful party policy.

Johnson is clearly trying to see how long this stonewalling thing will take him. Going to be a long hard battle to get this through; the courts will get involved.

[Cataplana]

Johnson is clearly trying to see how long this stonewalling thing will take him. Going to be a long hard battle to get this through; the courts will get involved.

The longer he stonewalls, the more he proves Sturgeon's point that they treat us with disdain. She's in no hurry, his best bet would be to get it over quickly.

Now would be a good time when it seems most people have had enough of politics.

[marinello59]

Johnson is clearly trying to see how long this stonewalling thing will take him. Going to be a long hard battle to get this through; the courts will get involved.

On what basis will the courts get involved? All Sturgeon can do is apply slow steady political pressure. It will pay off eventually but it is going to take time, there will be no magic bullet.
Johnson on the other will be hoping that the Brexit bounce for independence doesn’t really kick in and will be cynically wishing for the Salmond trial to do major damage. This has a couple of years at least to run.

[marinello59]

Perhaps somebody should inform Alister Jack that there is already a pro-independence majority at Holyrood and has been since 2016. They voted through a mandate in 2017 and have just voted through the legislative process for handing referenda powers over to the Scottish Parliament yesterday. It amazes me how stupid they think people are.

Sturgeon cleverly isn’t claiming there is a majority for Independence. She is claiming there is a majority for a second referendum. We shouldn’t let Westminster try and shift the emphasis from that.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the plan is to get Johnson to set the terms by which another referendum is granted. So far it’s just now is not the time. That can’t last because it’s not democratic. There has to be a road map and they have put it on him to set that. He could set an impossible target but that carries political risk. Will be interesting to hear the uk govt reply.


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[lapsedhibee]

On what basis will the courts get involved?
Might try to push for something based on the 1989 Claim of Right.

[marinello59]

Might try to push for something based on the 1989 Claim of Right.

I don’t think it carries any legal recognition.

[grunt]

Might try to push for something based on the 1989 Claim of Right.


I don’t think it carries any legal recognition.Oh well that's that argument destroyed then!! :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

I don’t think it carries any legal recognition.

Nonetheless, a court in Scotland may be sympathetic to what Sturgeon is trying to argue.

[marinello59]

Oh well that's that argument destroyed then!! :greengrin

:greengrin
Hardly, the Scottish Government might find something worth following there. I ain’t pinning my hopes on a magic fix though.

[Peevemor]

As I've posted before, I'm fairly certain that the SNP know exactly how to take this through the courts. It could well involve texts that are 100s of years old but that makes no difference if they haven't been superseded.

[Cataplana]

Does anybody really think using arcane tactics to achieve an objective will play well with the electorate?

As we saw in England, it just looks like people being smart arsed to get things in through the back door.

[Peevemor]

Does anybody really think using arcane tactics to achieve an objective will play well with the electorate?

As we saw in England, it just looks like people being smart arsed to get things in through the back door.

Is the union itself not founded on the arcane?

Do people know why we're governed from London?

[marinello59]

As I've posted before, I'm fairly certain that the SNP know exactly how to take this through the courts. It could well involve texts that are 100s of years old but that makes no difference if they haven't been superseded.

Baldrick and his cunning plan springs to mind. :greengrin
I hope you are right though I am far from convinced there is anything to be gained from going down that route. The key to this may turn out to be the next Holyrood elections.

[Moulin Yarns]

Might try to push for something based on the 1989 Claim of Right.

The 1689 claim of right became an act of the Scottish Parliament in 1703 and was retained in the 1707 act of union.

It has reference to parliamentary superiority over the crown. (as well as lots of anti Catholic rhetoric) whether it gives Scottish people a right to self determination is not very clear, but as it has been useful to stop the prorogation of Parliament then the government lawyers can probably argue the point.

[Cataplana]

Is the union itself not founded on the arcane?

Do people know why we're governed from London?

Depends on what "that bloke on the telly" says.

[Mibbes Aye]

As I've posted before, I'm fairly certain that the SNP know exactly how to take this through the courts. It could well involve texts that are 100s of years old but that makes no difference if they haven't been superseded.

Well that is just nonsense. Mobile phones were only developed in the last few decades. Unless you are one of those tin foil hat-types and you are suggesting our reptilian overlords have had the technology since the 17th century but only just shared it with us.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well that is just nonsense. Mobile phones were only developed in the last few decades. Unless you are one of those tin foil hat-types and you are suggesting our reptilian overlords have had the technology since the 17th century but only just shared it with us.

😂

[JeMeSouviens]

Well that is just nonsense. Mobile phones were only developed in the last few decades. Unless you are one of those tin foil hat-types and you are suggesting our reptilian overlords have had the technology since the 17th century but only just shared it with us.

Reptilian overlords are all on whatsapp. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Many a truth spoken in jest :paranoid:

https://i.postimg.cc/bJSzQp0d/obey-and-bow-down-to-your-alien-reptilian-overlords-bizarre-3778.png

[Ozyhibby]

Does anybody really think using arcane tactics to achieve an objective will play well with the electorate?

As we saw in England, it just looks like people being smart arsed to get things in through the back door.

100% agree. Let’s let Boris Johnson be the one working against the people.


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[CloudSquall]

As I've posted before, I'm fairly certain that the SNP know exactly how to take this through the courts. It could well involve texts that are 100s of years old but that makes no difference if they haven't been superseded.

I think Joanna Cherry will be leading that, I think they even quoted from the declaration of Arbroath in the prorogation case that won.

[cabbageandribs1875]

johnson has given the position of defence minister to James Heappey....

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/18113564.swearing-schoolgirl-rewarded/?fbclid=IwAR2UoXKzwObu9bi24vGIVu9zH6H6t8msw-p9hW2XCTtvGFXxxC5y-Ez4gTs

I SEE that Johnson has appointed James Heappey to the post of Defence Minister in his London-based Government (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Government&topic_id=9004). He had already shown preference to this individual by having him as His Parliamentary Private Secretary.
James Heappey was the MP who, during the 2017 election campaign, visited a class of sixth-form pupils in his constituency. When one Scottish girl told him she would vote for Scottish independence (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-independence/) in a second referendum, he told her to “F*** off.”
He subsequently told another newspaper that “it was intended as a joke” and he “was deeply sorry for any offence caused.” Some joke – an adult using offensive language when a school pupil expresses an opinion with which he disagrees!


READ MORE: Calls for suspension of Tory candidate who told indy-backing Scottish teenager to "F*** off" (https://www.thenational.scot/news/15287380.calls-for-suspension-of-tory-candidate-who-told-indy-backing-scottish-teenager-to-f-off/)
The girl told her father, who complained to the school, and it was the school who wrote a letter of apology. Heappey’s apologies followed the publicity his odious behaviour attracted.

:rolleyes:

[MartinfaePorty]

If tonight doesn't make you vote for independence, nothing will

Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

So @BorisJohnson take a look at this. It seems this petition was rejected and advised that it is up to the people of #Scotland & not the UK Government or Parliament. We will have another #ScottishReferendum for #ScottishIndependence @theSNP #indyref2020 #Indyref2 @NicolaSturgeon https://t.co/OBpChDp8Hh

🤔😁🙏❤️

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191221/702bad1b85e3ed5391ecc0185bb520a3.jpg

Pre the snp coming to power at Holyrood, Scotland would have been well represented with yellow dots.


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[Cataplana]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191221/702bad1b85e3ed5391ecc0185bb520a3.jpg

Pre the snp coming to power at Holyrood, Scotland would have been well represented with yellow dots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There must be some way to prove that.

[Moulin Yarns]

Remember the number of times we are told that it will be difficult to become a member of the EU.

We'll, evidence that some members of the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms.


Two years ago, we (50 politicians from across the EU and political spectrum) wrote a letter to the Scottish Parliament.

Maybe now is the moment to remind everyone in Scotland of our commitment:

Your future is for you to decide, but we will leave our door open. https://t.co/RrvU8HjCcM

[Just_Jimmy]

Hardcore Nationalists - which is pretty much all members - would take Scotland out of the UK on 50% plus 1. Many would like to do it without the tiresome need for a referendum - just look at social media for that.

An independent Scotland would face another 10 years of austerity just to get back to where it started the day before independence. That's fine if it's what people want - nuts, but fine. To think it would be a good idea to strike out on that path with the country divided internally on essentially a 50/50 vote is bonkers.This for me is key. It's ridiculous that such a massive change can be implemented by one more person voting yes than voting no.

The reason Brexit has been such a mess is because it scraped through. The country is basically 50-50 on the issue still.

These massive constitutional issues should have a minimum 60-65% positive before they change anything. Otherwise they are just destructive.

That's not pro or anti indy or brexit. It's pro not using referendums to cause social division and causing wounds that take decades to heal.

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[ronaldo7]

This for me is key. It's ridiculous that such a massive change can be implemented by one more person voting yes than voting no.

The reason Brexit has been such a mess is because it scraped through. The country is basically 50-50 on the issue still.

These massive constitutional issues should have a minimum 60-65% positive before they change anything. Otherwise they are just destructive.

That's not pro or anti indy or brexit. It's pro not using referendums to cause social division and causing wounds that take decades to heal.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

How about 80% of MPs at a recent election, who stood for independence. 👍

[Ozyhibby]

This for me is key. It's ridiculous that such a massive change can be implemented by one more person voting yes than voting no.

The reason Brexit has been such a mess is because it scraped through. The country is basically 50-50 on the issue still.

These massive constitutional issues should have a minimum 60-65% positive before they change anything. Otherwise they are just destructive.

That's not pro or anti indy or brexit. It's pro not using referendums to cause social division and causing wounds that take decades to heal.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Slowly but surely goalposts are being moved.


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[Bangkok Hibby]

Slowly but surely goalposts are being moved.


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Yes more people talking about this, the media get on board and all of a sudden it's written into law. FFS Scotland get out now before it's too late.

[Just_Jimmy]

How about 80% of MPs at a recent election, who stood for independence. [emoji106]Oh they've got a mandate to ask the question. There's no doubt about that.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the concept that such material change should be made with a 51% winning number. I believe that a substantial percentage of the voting public should be required to impact such change.

I think that was a big issue with brexit and I personally feel like Scotland would be best served if the vote for independence was an over whelming landslide. That doesn't mean it won't be - but it should be because it automatically kills any argument about second votes etc.

Again - I'm not anti Indy. I'm simply sick fed up of infighting across the UK on all levels. Referendums must be decisive.

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[Just_Jimmy]

Slowly but surely goalposts are being moved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes more people talking about this, the media get on board and all of a sudden it's written into law. FFS Scotland get out now before it's too late.See my previous reply to Ronaldo.

I'm not anti indy at all. I personally believe it's silly to make such monumental constitutional change on the back of a 51-49/52-48% vote.

It's the same for brexit. It should never have been progressed because as a "advisory referendum" it only told us that the country was really 50-50. Even after all the campaigning.

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[Ozyhibby]

See my previous replay to Ronaldo.

I'm not anti indy at all. I personally believe it's silly to make such monumental constitutional change on the back of a 51-49/52-48% vote.

It's the same for brexit. It should never have been progressed because as a "advisory referendum" it only told us that the country was really 50-50. Even after all the campaigning.

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I disagree. Brexit was voted for by the majority and it deserves to go through or at the least be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
You can’t ignore a majority. That’s why the Lib Dem’s policy of just revoking article 50 failed.
50%+1 is all that should be needed in any binary poll.



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[Bangkok Hibby]

I disagree. Brexit was voted for by the majority and it deserves to go through or at the least be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
You can’t ignore a majority. That’s why the Lib Dem’s policy of just revoking article 50 failed.
50%+1 is all that should be needed in any binary poll.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely, otherwise the minority will usually win.

[Just_Jimmy]

I disagree. Brexit was voted for by the majority and it deserves to go through or at the least be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
You can’t ignore a majority. That’s why the Lib Dem’s policy of just revoking article 50 failed.
50%+1 is all that should be needed in any binary poll.



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's fine in sentiment. However as we all know, it'll mean the argument and division drags on for another 10 years.

If Scotland votes 51-49 to stay in the union will that end talk of independence? We both know it won't.

If it votes 51-49 to leave then it'll be dragged out for years and then we'll be made to vote again.

Ideal situation would be 65% either way which would end the debate and allow progression.

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[Ozyhibby]

That's fine in sentiment. However as we all know, it'll mean the argument and division drags on for another 10 years.

If Scotland votes 51-49 to stay in the union will that end talk of independence? We both know it won't.

If it votes 51-49 to leave then it'll be dragged out for years and then we'll be made to vote again.

Ideal situation would be 65% either way which would end the debate and allow progression.

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The debate never ends. It’s what living in a democracy is all about. Have you ever known a time when there wasn’t debate about where the country is going? Have you ever known a time when the opposition never claimed the government weren’t absolutely destroying the country? And yet here we are, all still here and with constantly rising living standards.


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[Callum_62]

Brexit should have had to confirmed by the 4 nations voting on it

I'm think Sturgeon wanted this but was ignored by Cameron

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[Hibrandenburg]

Anyone else on social media noticing a change in the direction of the sometimes obscene abuse of politicians? Up until 2 weeks ago it was full of derogatory memes and propaganda aimed at Corbyn, Abbott and Swinson, now the abuse has been turned on the Scottish Independence movement and Nicola Sturgeon in particular. The British right wing are now concentrating their efforts on demonising Sturgeon and it's relentless.

[Ozyhibby]

Brexit should have had to confirmed by the 4 nations voting on it

I'm think Sturgeon wanted this but was ignored by Cameron

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Yip. The UK Union is poorly constructed with all 4 nations having different rights. It’s why we are better off as part of the EU rather than the UK. The EU gives more power to small nations.


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[Ozyhibby]

Anyone else on social media noticing a change in the direction of the sometimes obscene abuse of politicians? Up until 2 weeks ago it was full of derogatory memes and propaganda aimed at Corbyn, Abbott and Swinson, now the abuse has been turned on the Scottish Independence movement and Nicola Sturgeon in particular. The British right wing are now concentrating their efforts on demonising Sturgeon and it's relentless.

The SNP won’t mind them whipping up British nationalism.


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[Just_Jimmy]

The debate never ends. It’s what living in a democracy is all about. Have you ever known a time when there wasn’t debate about where the country is going? Have you ever known a time when the opposition never claimed the government weren’t absolutely destroying the country? And yet here we are, all still here and with constantly rising living standards.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOf course not. Which is fine when the level of debate is higher than;

Brexit is great.
Naw it's no. It's pish.

Or indy is great.
Naw it's not. It's pish.

I guess that's a different argument however.

Standards of living have never been higher for some. For others it's abject poverty, disenfranchisement and little hope.

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[grunt]

The reason Brexit has been such a mess is because it scraped through. The country is basically 50-50 on the issue still. I understand that you were making the point about simple majorities and the closeness of the result. But that isn't why Brexit is such a mess - it's a mess because it's a hugely damaging and retrograde step for the country, and the majority of those charged with implementing it know this. So they're trying to put the UK's hand into the fire at the same time as trying to mitigate the pain. They can't, and now we're flying headlong towards no deal we'll soon enough discover how painful it's going to be.

For this reason, Scotland really needs to get its act together and join the EU. If we get a majority of 50% +1, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

[The Modfather]

The reason Brexit has been such a mess is because it scraped through. The country is basically 50-50 on the issue still.

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Not sure I fully agree. I think Brexit is such a mess and divisive because even now we don’t know what Brexit actually means. We should have had the referendum, then a vote on the different versions of Brexit. A separate debate could be had about whether none of the above and revoke Brexit was an option or not. Although I’m not sure it would be particularly fair as the remainders would all vote one way and the leavers dilute their vote on the various visions of Brexit.

I think Indyref 2 should be the same. A black and white question, and then a vote on what version on independence we want.

[grunt]

I think Indyref 2 should be the same. A black and white question, and then a vote on what version on independence we want.
I'm not being funny here, but what different versions of independence do you have in mind?

[The Modfather]

I'm not being funny here, but what different versions of independence do you have in mind?

I’ve thought about it in any great detail tbh, but the main issues I can think of are;

• EU membership
• Trident
• Renewable energy appetite
• Tax appetite
• Monarchy (we can but hope anyway)

Etc etc

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve thought about it in any great detail tbh, but the main issues I can think of are;

• EU membership
• Trident
• Renewable energy appetite
• Tax appetite
• Monarchy (we can but hope anyway)

Etc etc

Just the sort of things an independent country would debate anyway.


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[Skol]

How about 80% of MPs at a recent election, who stood for independence. 👍

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

[Moulin Yarns]

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

And the 13 Scottish (sic) Tories stood on an anti Indyref2 ticket and I wonder how that worked out for them?

[Ozyhibby]

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Unionists - All you talk about is independence.
Also unionists - You got elected based on other stuff.



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[cabbageandribs1875]

nice wee clip of catalans showing support for Scotland :thumbsup:





https://www.facebook.com/ken.jackson.127/videos/3138593159488484/

[ronaldo7]

Oh they've got a mandate to ask the question. There's no doubt about that.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the concept that such material change should be made with a 51% winning number. I believe that a substantial percentage of the voting public should be required to impact such change.

I think that was a big issue with brexit and I personally feel like Scotland would be best served if the vote for independence was an over whelming landslide. That doesn't mean it won't be - but it should be because it automatically kills any argument about second votes etc.

Again - I'm not anti Indy. I'm simply sick fed up of infighting across the UK on all levels. Referendums must be decisive.

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Totally respect your position. It's not one I endorse however.

Super majorities are used when one argument is losing. We've seen it used by the Labour party (Cunningham), at Westminster, and now Kelly at Holyrood. We've had to respect the result of the 2014 indyref, and we're still part of the Union. Democracy doesn't stand still however, and things change, as we've seen since then.

I'm all for people having the right to choose, and if we win the next one, I'm all for the position, that if the Unionists, on a manifesto, promise that they'll go back into the Union, win in the Scottish Parliament, they'll have the right to go back, unless we change the voting franchise.:wink:

I get where you're coming from, but no super majority for me.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Happy to help you understand exactly what they stood for.:aok: The manifesto ran to 52 pages. Here's 12 key issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561073

[Hibrandenburg]

The SNP won’t mind them whipping up British nationalism.


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Then they're naive, the kind of stuff I'm talking about is similar to the old 1930s propaganda posters seen in Germany. The aim is to demonize the victims to such a level that political discourse is meaningless because the victim has been turned into a monster already in the eyes of the hard of thinking who get their own prejudices confirmed.

[Just_Jimmy]

Totally respect your position. It's not one I endorse however.

Super majorities are used when one argument is losing. We've seen it used by the Labour party (Cunningham), at Westminster, and now Kelly at Holyrood. We've had to respect the result of the 2014 indyref, and we're still part of the Union. Democracy doesn't stand still however, and things change, as we've seen since then.

I'm all for people having the right to choose, and if we win the next one, I'm all for the position, that if the Unionists, on a manifesto, promise that they'll go back into the Union, win in the Scottish Parliament, they'll have the right to go back, unless we change the voting franchise.:wink:

I get where you're coming from, but no super majority for me.:aok:That's a fair stance. We've discussed the topic like adults and we've been civil to each other. I'm sure both sides of the argument could learn from that.

To others who replied on Brexit, all fair inputs however a lot of the complications could have been avoided if we'd made the percentage decisive.

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[Skol]

Happy to help you understand exactly what they stood for.:aok: The manifesto ran to 52 pages. Here's 12 key issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561073

So you started reading at no 2 ?

[ronaldo7]

So you started reading at no 2 ?

They stood on all 12, not 1 of 12. I read them all. 👍

I didn't stop reading after 1. 👍

[grunt]

The aim is to demonize the victims to such a level that political discourse is meaningless because the victim has been turned into a monster already in the eyes of the hard of thinking who get their own prejudices confirmed.

This seems to be exactly what the Tories are doing with their orchestrated walkout from the HoC every time Blackford gets up to speak. And judging by the comments on Twitter, it's working.

[lapsedhibee]

This seems to be exactly what the Tories are doing with their orchestrated walkout from the HoC every time Blackford gets up to speak. And judging by the comments on Twitter, it's working.

Presumably the twitter response is also orchestrated, though, independently, rather than the HoC shenanigans causing it. Cummings's Ministry of Public Enlightenment behind all that, and much, much more to come. Starting with Kuenssberg getting special access during the Salmond trial.

[allmodcons]

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Are you seriously suggesting that people don't know by now that the SNP's raison d'etre is Scottish Independence?

They were anti Brexit, pro Independence with the central plank of the campaign being all about Scotland having a say on it's own path.

[G B Young]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-referendum-sturgeon-speaks-for-snp-not-scotland-brian-wilson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-nicola-sturgeon-divides-and-rules-with-myth-of-the-mandate-1-5065710

[Smartie]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-referendum-sturgeon-speaks-for-snp-not-scotland-brian-wilson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-nicola-sturgeon-divides-and-rules-with-myth-of-the-mandate-1-5065710

I couldn't read the Brian Wilson article due to the usual problems with the Scotsman website, but presumably as a devout unionist he's welcoming in the new Boris Johnson government, proclaiming the strength of the British people in having those in Sedgefield, Blythe Valley and Leigh stand shoulder to shoulder with those in Springburn and Niddrie, and looking forward to what this new Conservative administration will do for the people who live in those areas?

[Mon Dieu4]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-referendum-sturgeon-speaks-for-snp-not-scotland-brian-wilson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-nicola-sturgeon-divides-and-rules-with-myth-of-the-mandate-1-5065710

That just says to me the Scotsman doesn't want independence to be honest

The country I would say at this stage is 50/50 on independence and considering that before the last referendum they thought pro independence was about 28% it's a great starting point

They are getting in early with project fear 2.0

While she is first minister and the SNP are the biggest party in Holyrood and Westminster then Surgeon does speak for Scotland, doesn't matter if you or they like it or not

5 elections on the spin that they have gained about 45% of the vote

I totally get that not everyone wants independence but I'm of the firm belief if the biggest party in Scotland chooses to have a referendum then they could do if every week if they want as long as it was in their manifesto and everyone knew about it

Once again it's people talking us down instead of up

[grunt]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-referendum-sturgeon-speaks-for-snp-not-scotland-brian-wilson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-nicola-sturgeon-divides-and-rules-with-myth-of-the-mandate-1-5065710
1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

[Ozyhibby]

1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

I’ll be surprised if the Scotsman survives until the next indyref.


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[Ozyhibby]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-referendum-sturgeon-speaks-for-snp-not-scotland-brian-wilson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-nicola-sturgeon-divides-and-rules-with-myth-of-the-mandate-1-5065710

Funny how unionists are are complaining about the first past the post system these days.
Fact is the SNP are winning elections in Scotland and the prize for that is they represent Scotland. When Sturgeon speaks, she speaks for Scotland whether you like it or not.


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[Smartie]

Funny how unionists are are complaining about the first past the post system these days.
Fact is the SNP are winning elections in Scotland and the prize for that is they represent Scotland. When Sturgeon speaks, she speaks for Scotland whether you like it or not.


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:agree:

Many of us have issues with the Tories, but there is no disputing the result of the election. They got an overwhelming majority and the mandates that go with that.

The same goes for the SNP in Scotland.

[Cataplana]

1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

If you want to stop Independence then vote for the Conservative and Unionist Party. Less than 25% of those polled voted for them.

[Skol]

They stood on all 12, not 1 of 12. I read them all. 👍

I didn't stop reading after 1. 👍

Neither did I. And I noted 4 of the 12 were for more devolved powers.

[Skol]

Are you seriously suggesting that people don't know by now that the SNP's raison d'etre is Scottish Independence?

They were anti Brexit, pro Independence with the central plank of the campaign being all about Scotland having a say on it's own path.

Of course I am not. However the primary message from the SNP was Anti Brexit / Stop the Tories and they sought vote from people who would vote no in order to get the scottish voice heard at Westminster.

If the SNP want to build a case for Independence, they should get their heads down and make a success of running the country with what they have.

[Callum_62]

Of course I am not. However the primary message from the SNP was Anti Brexit / Stop the Tories and they sought vote from people who would vote no in order to get the scottish voice heard at Westminster.

If the SNP want to build a case for Independence, they should get their heads down and make a success of running the country with what they have.

Why should we be content with what we have, or what we are given?

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[CloudSquall]

Brian Wilson and Euan McColm displaying weapon's grade seethe that I thought was only possible to find on Kickback.

[Moulin Yarns]

A bit on where people are with independence issues.


https://www.progressscotland.org/research/here-are-10-key-things-we-have-learnt-in-2019?fbclid=IwAR0ko890_HC9feP-HgO5A-Rm9gCqWF5fb8PoHdncjx1h14djOz8TUN2ymFY

[Skol]

Why should we be content with what we have, or what we are given?

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For me the SNP have to demonstrate that we can have the vision they talk of. There is no point getting more when you dont make the best of what you have.

They need to bring the country together and not divide it.

[Moulin Yarns]

nice wee clip of catalans showing support for Scotland :thumbsup:





https://www.facebook.com/ken.jackson.127/videos/3138593159488484/

I posted this a few days ago. It's people of the Basque Country showing solidarity with Catalonia and Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

For me the SNP have to demonstrate that we can have the vision they talk of. There is no point getting more when you dont make the best of what you have.

They need to bring the country together and not divide it.

Can you name a UK govt that has made the best of what we have?
The SNP govt have been a very competent, it’s why they keep winning.


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[G B Young]

I couldn't read the Brian Wilson article due to the usual problems with the Scotsman website, but presumably as a devout unionist he's welcoming in the new Boris Johnson government, proclaiming the strength of the British people in having those in Sedgefield, Blythe Valley and Leigh stand shoulder to shoulder with those in Springburn and Niddrie, and looking forward to what this new Conservative administration will do for the people who live in those areas?

Agree about the utter crapness of the Scotsman website but Wilson doesn't say any of the things you mention. He just sums up the case for the majority of the 'people of Scotland' (to borrow from the SNP mantra) who find the incessant barrage about independence utterly wearisome and have no issue with being Scottish and British.

[Just Alf]

Agree about the utter crapness of the Scotsman website but Wilson doesn't say any of the things you mention. He just sums up the case for the majority of the 'people of Scotland' (to borrow from the SNP mantra) who find the incessant barrage about independence utterly wearisome and have no issue with being Scottish and British.It's a fair point, these people will then surely vote for a party that doesn't want to put the electorate through another referendum, that will put it to bed until a vote at some point in the future where the party wanting a referendum gets a majority again.

Basically for those not wanting a referendum all they need to do is vote that way and win at the next Holyrood elections and the idea's stone dead for a while.

Until then though.......


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[allmodcons]

Agree about the utter crapness of the Scotsman website but Wilson doesn't say any of the things you mention. He just sums up the case for the majority of the 'people of Scotland' (to borrow from the SNP mantra) who find the incessant barrage about independence utterly wearisome and have no issue with being Scottish and British.

Since when did Brian Wilson speak for the majority and what is the point of pasting and copying a link from an individual who doesn't just disagree with the SNP but hates them with a vengeance (i.e. - where is the balance).

What he is saying is that BritNats like him find talk about Independence wearisome, he has absolutely zero evidence to support the argument that the majority find the topic wearisome.

I haven't read the article and don't intend to but can guarantee it will not be remotely close to balanced. This a guy who is happy to support Irish Nationalism but can't bring himself to say anything positive about Scottish Nationalism or the SNP.

He, like you, is happy with another 5 years of Tory Governance with a leader in situ who is nothing more than a self serving, cock.

[allmodcons]

Of course I am not. However the primary message from the SNP was Anti Brexit / Stop the Tories and they sought vote from people who would vote no in order to get the scottish voice heard at Westminster.

If the SNP want to build a case for Independence, they should get their heads down and make a success of running the country with what they have.

I like many others happen to think that the SNP are doing a good job in very difficult circumstances. That, presumably, is why the keep being re-elected.

The best analogy I've heard is that the Scottish Government is like a golfer being asked to play a round of golf (and score) with one club.

[ronaldo7]

Neither did I. And I noted 4 of the 12 were for more devolved powers.

Brilliant. It looks like they covered all bases.

Brexit, independence, and devolved issues.

What a team. 🏆

[degenerated]

But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.You might want to tell them then, as it seems to have taken precedence over Brexit in their manifesto, being the key point on the first page and their very first key pledge. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191222/26dd4872e5b66ef6db3282a0273d0678.jpg

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[degenerated]

So you started reading at no 2 ?That's the BBC spin on it, if you read the actual manifesto then you would have to start at no. 2 for your point to be accurate.

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[Moulin Yarns]

For me the SNP have to demonstrate that we can have the vision they talk of. There is no point getting more when you dont make the best of what you have.

They need to bring the country together and not divide it.

Reading today that the UK government may not present a budget until March, this impacts the Scottish government setting its budget because they need to know what the annual settlement will be.

Treasury just told them to make it up based on the last settlement.

The office for budget responsibilities says that the delay in the UK budget will have many years of negative impact.

Maybe you could explain what the Scottish government can do to mitigate against this latest clusterburarch by Westminster?

[G B Young]

Funny how unionists are are complaining about the first past the post system these days.
Fact is the SNP are winning elections in Scotland and the prize for that is they represent Scotland. When Sturgeon speaks, she speaks for Scotland whether you like it or not.


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By that token when Johnson speaks he speaks for the UK, which Scotland is a part of no matter how much some may wish it wasn't.

[G B Young]

Since when did Brian Wilson speak for the majority and what is the point of pasting and copying a link from an individual who doesn't just disagree with the SNP but hates them with a vengeance (i.e. - where is the balance).

What he is saying is that BritNats like him find talk about Independence wearisome, he has absolutely zero evidence to support the argument that the majority find the topic wearisome.

I haven't read the article and don't intend to but can guarantee it will not be remotely close to balanced. This a guy who is happy to support Irish Nationalism but can't bring himself to say anything positive about Scottish Nationalism or the SNP.

He, like you, is happy with another 5 years of Tory Governance with a leader in situ who is nothing more than a self serving, cock.

A balanced response to an article you haven't read :wink:

[G B Young]

It's a fair point, these people will then surely vote for a party that doesn't want to put the electorate through another referendum, that will put it to bed until a vote at some point in the future where the party wanting a referendum gets a majority again.

Basically for those not wanting a referendum all they need to do is vote that way and win at the next Holyrood elections and the idea's stone dead for a while.

Until then though.......


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The usual problem there is that while the SNP are a minority government at Holyrood, unless those who vote for opposition parties can be persuaded to vote for only one party at a Holyrood election the SNP will continue to divide and rule ie what you suggest is simply not going to happen.

[Callum_62]

By that token when Johnson speaks he speaks for the UK, which Scotland is a part of no matter how much some may wish it wasn't.

Which what, over rules the devolved administrations?

Whatever happened to equals?

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