Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

I think some people may take offence [emoji848][emoji6]


Barnett Formula explanation for unionists, and their sycophants in Scotland.

I have £10

My next door neighbour takes it.

He gives me back £4 for myself.

He tells me I owe him a further £20 for a new lawn mower he bought for both of us.

I don’t have a garden!

I see crossrail is now above £18bn. What a boost for Scotland when it eventually opens though.[emoji849]


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[degenerated]

:agree:

All that matters is what was written into the Edinburgh Agreement (which shouldn't even stand imo) and there is absolutely no mention of "once in a generation" in there.

If there had of been anything of the sort written into the agreement, it would have been an absolute figure like 20 or 30 years. Not "generation" which of course is always open to interpretation over how long that would actually be.I'm sure the northern ireland act, which was voted on and agreed in house of commons, defines a political generation as being 7 years.

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[Bristolhibby]

I see crossrail is now above £18bn. What a boost for Scotland when it eventually opens though.[emoji849]


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Wonder what the whole life cost of the Dreadnought Class of Submarines and the Trident replacement will cost?

J

[Moulin Yarns]

From the BBC




No Scottish referendum in first term, says CorbynOne of the charges against Jeremy Corbyn from former Labour minister Tom Harris earlier today was that he would help break up the UK by offering a new referendum on Scottish independence.
Now Mr Corbyn has addressed that head on, telling reporters he would not agree to an independence referendum in the first term of a Labour government - meaning not for five years.
But BBC political correspondent Nick Eardley says that Labour aides have briefed that the position could change if the SNP wins a majority in the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/YesGlenrothes18/status/1194701252829028354?s=09

[JimBHibees]

Her reaction shows how gutted she was at not getting the answer she'd hoped for.

Absolutely spot on. She was devastated. Says it all for our impartial national broadcaster.

[cabbageandribs1875]

we're moving to scotland, catch wee ditty :)


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=557104308421125

[Hibrandenburg]

we're moving to scotland, catch wee ditty :)


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=557104308421125

:greengrin

[southsider]

One for Jack Ross

[Slavers]

"A few years ago, a member of the family decided to leave and it's a lot of trouble for them to leave the house. And we sometimes have trouble renovating the house, to repair the lights, the electricity. And by the way, a lot of members, when you ask them, 'Are you ready to invest to repair the lights, to redo the door?' they say, 'No, I'm not ready to invest in this house. Not more than 1 percent.' But the same people sometimes say, 'Even though we don't know how people can leave, or how to renovate, we want to invite in new friends.'" - Macron

Some people are saying Scotland will be allowed into the EU within months, as you can see from the recent quote from Macron, he will veto any more nations being allowed into the EU without the EU going through major reforms - this is going to be a lengthy process of reform which i suspect will take years to complete, likely to include EU army that he is desperate to bring forward.

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.

[Peevemor]

"A few years ago, a member of the family decided to leave and it's a lot of trouble for them to leave the house. And we sometimes have trouble renovating the house, to repair the lights, the electricity. And by the way, a lot of members, when you ask them, 'Are you ready to invest to repair the lights, to redo the door?' they say, 'No, I'm not ready to invest in this house. Not more than 1 percent.' But the same people sometimes say, 'Even though we don't know how people can leave, or how to renovate, we want to invite in new friends.'" - Macron

Some people are saying Scotland will be allowed into the EU within months, as you can see from the recent quote from Macron, he will veto any more nations being allowed into the EU without the EU going to major reforms - this is going to be a lengthy process of reform which i suspect will take years to complete, likely to include EU army that he is desperate to bring forward.

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.



There are new members and there are new members. Macron would never block an iScotland's entry to the EU. Apart from anything else it'd be a good slap in the chops for England.

Macron has to make the right noises about Europe and borders as, as is happening elsewhere, a growing number of the electorate are getting humpty about immigrants - especially Muslims and job stealing Eastern Europeans.

I have experience of this. I have spoken to different French people who are anti EU & anti immigration, but their gripes don't apply to me, even though I'm an EU immigrant like any other (or am I?).

[Mantis Toboggan]

"A few years ago, a member of the family decided to leave and it's a lot of trouble for them to leave the house. And we sometimes have trouble renovating the house, to repair the lights, the electricity. And by the way, a lot of members, when you ask them, 'Are you ready to invest to repair the lights, to redo the door?' they say, 'No, I'm not ready to invest in this house. Not more than 1 percent.' But the same people sometimes say, 'Even though we don't know how people can leave, or how to renovate, we want to invite in new friends.'" - Macron

Some people are saying Scotland will be allowed into the EU within months, as you can see from the recent quote from Macron, he will veto any more nations being allowed into the EU without the EU going through major reforms - this is going to be a lengthy process of reform which i suspect will take years to complete, likely to include EU army that he is desperate to bring forward.

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.



Thats quite the inference from the quoted words.

Bit in bold is a bit rich given your posting history.

[DaveF]

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.


Bus. 350million. Die in a ditch. And so on.

You really are a total slaver.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.


You've just described what politicians do and Macron is no exception. Your tory party are particularly renowned for saying whatever suits them at the given time and hoping people forget all about those promises later.

[lapsedhibee]

"A few years ago, a member of the family decided to leave and it's a lot of trouble for them to leave the house. And we sometimes have trouble renovating the house, to repair the lights, the electricity. And by the way, a lot of members, when you ask them, 'Are you ready to invest to repair the lights, to redo the door?' they say, 'No, I'm not ready to invest in this house. Not more than 1 percent.' But the same people sometimes say, 'Even though we don't know how people can leave, or how to renovate, we want to invite in new friends.'" - Macron

Some people are saying Scotland will be allowed into the EU within months, as you can see from the recent quote from Macron, he will veto any more nations being allowed into the EU without the EU going through major reforms - this is going to be a lengthy process of reform which i suspect will take years to complete, likely to include EU army that he is desperate to bring forward.

That's the one thing i really do not like about some nationalists, they will simply say what they want to be true and pass it off as fact and then hope everyone swallows it.

The current leader of the UK government :clown: :fibber: tells lie after lie after lie and you single out nationalists for 'passing things off as fact'? :faint:

[Fife-Hibee]

The current leader of the UK government :clown: :fibber: tells lie after lie after lie and you single out nationalists for 'passing things off as fact'? :faint:

In their defence. Boris Johnson does come across as very convincing. :cb

[cabbageandribs1875]

three by-elections won by the SNP last week, unfortunately the BBC didn't see fit to let the public know in their 'scottish' news section (haw haw)

227052270622707




very low turnouts in all three, the good guys won though and that's the most important statistic :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191119/ffe3c8f486607743fcd02e479303a805.jpg

Boris Johnson already treating Scotland like another country as he stokes up English nationalism. This kind of talk very helpful for Yes2.


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[Fife-Hibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191119/ffe3c8f486607743fcd02e479303a805.jpg

Boris Johnson already treating Scotland like another country as he stokes up English nationalism. This kind of talk very helpful for Yes2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If we had any sense as a nation it would be very helpful. Sadly we have no fricking sense. It'll be getting lapped up as a Boris Johnson victory by NO supporters all over Scotland. :grr:

[Fife-Hibee]

I see Mr Brown vow is back to blaming Scotland for divisions across the UK again.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18044660.gordon-brown-says-uk-divisions-take-a-generation-end/

I don't think i've ever once heard him blame the tories. (He mustn't get paid as much for doing that)

[Future17]

I see Mr Brown vow is back to blaming Scotland for divisions across the UK again.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18044660.gordon-brown-says-uk-divisions-take-a-generation-end/

I don't think i've ever once heard him blame the tories. (He mustn't get paid as much for doing that)

I didn't see any comments blaming Scotland and I think he probably has a point somewhere in all that verbal diarrhoea, but I'm not sure what he means by ""With the SNP now threatening the hardest of 'hard' separations".

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not sure what he means by ""With the SNP now threatening the hardest of 'hard' separations".
Is he not just trying to damn ScotNats by associating them in people's minds with ERG/Spartan/Nutter*******Brexiters?

[Future17]

Is he not just trying to damn ScotNats by associating them in people's minds with ERG/Spartan/Nutter*******Brexiters?

Possibly, but it's strangely specific language to use when that could probably be accomplished by a more general example of similarities.

If he were genuinely concerned about the negative side of the divisions he's spoken of, he probably shouldn't equate that to the party with the most elected representatives for Scotland in both Westminster and Holyrood.

As Fife has alluded to, it smacks of someone who has other interests in mind, which may or may not be financial.

[Ozyhibby]

Possibly, but it's strangely specific language to use when that could probably be accomplished by a more general example of similarities.

If he were genuinely concerned about the negative side of the divisions he's spoken of, he probably shouldn't equate that to the party with the most elected representatives for Scotland in both Westminster and Holyrood.

As Fife has alluded to, it smacks of someone who has other interests in mind, which may or may not be financial.

He certainly knows how to look after his personal financial situation having switch his main residence on paper two days befor he was named PM so that he could claim the far more expensive London mortgage on expenses. Very much a snout in the trough politician.


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[Sylar]

Possibly, but it's strangely specific language to use when that could probably be accomplished by a more general example of similarities.

If he were genuinely concerned about the negative side of the divisions he's spoken of, he probably shouldn't equate that to the party with the most elected representatives for Scotland in both Westminster and Holyrood.

As Fife has alluded to, it smacks of someone who has other interests in mind, which may or may not be financial.

Speaking of, what was the straw to break the camel's back to see our dear friend emptied?

[cabbageandribs1875]

what a brilliant Speech by nicola sturgeon in dundee, sky news


22713


fine we know it piers, fine we know it

[Future17]

Speaking of, what was the straw to break the camel's back to see our dear friend emptied?

He suggested Tories steal the votes of older people in care homes who lack capacity.

[HNA12]

He suggested Tories steal the votes of older people in care homes who lack capacity.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?342902-General-election-2019&p=5994660&viewfull=1#post5994660

[Sylar]

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?342902-General-election-2019&p=5994660&viewfull=1#post5994660

Thanks HNA12 - I fully appreciate you don't discuss individual posters, but as someone who's had numerous run-ins with FH over the years, I was curious (as I haven't been paying attention lately).

Appreciate the link :agree:

[The Harp Awakes]

what a brilliant Speech by nicola sturgeon in dundee, sky news


22713


fine we know it piers, fine we know it

:agree:

All the more impressive when you consider Nic is leading Government and a movement for radical change (independence) at the same time. A remarkable, strong leader which 50% of the Scottish electorate will never acknowledge due to political bias.

[JeMeSouviens]

This is quite interesting, on the rabid Tory Brexit foaming site unherd.com.

https://election.unherd.com/

Respondents were asked to state agree/disagree to "I am a strong supporter of the continued reign of the Royal Family".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ20YYxX0AAbuFo?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ2yZZUWwAArYWg?format=jpg&name=900x900


It is remarkable how well support for the Royals correlates to support for Brexit which I think shows the extent to which British/English nationalist sentiment drove Brexit.

Oh, and Vive la Republique! :saltireflag :wink:

[southsider]

What does the pink & purple areas mean ? Once the queen dies it’s all over. Your freeloading days are history. Yip Up the Republic.

[SHODAN]

This is quite interesting, on the rabid Tory Brexit foaming site unherd.com.

https://election.unherd.com/

Respondents were asked to state agree/disagree to "I am a strong supporter of the continued reign of the Royal Family".

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ20YYxX0AAbuFo?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ2yZZUWwAArYWg?format=jpg&name=900x900


It is remarkable how well support for the Royals correlates to support for Brexit which I think shows the extent to which British/English nationalist sentiment drove Brexit.

Oh, and Vive la Republique! :saltireflag :wink:

That map is extremely misleading (and I'm a republican). Almost every constituency supports the royals but on first impressions it looks as though the "pink" constituencies are majority "disagree" - they aren't, they're just the "least" pro royal. The most republican part of Scotland is only 38-36 "disagree".

[JeMeSouviens]

That map is extremely misleading (and I'm a republican). Almost every constituency supports the royals but on first impressions it looks as though the "pink" constituencies are majority "disagree" - they aren't, they're just the "least" pro royal. The most republican part of Scotland is only 38-36 "disagree".

Only if you didn't read the question. :greengrin I was crediting the average HG .netter to be a bit more discerning. :wink:

yes, it's a map of "strong support" for the royals rather than off with their heads but it shows that support is relatively weak across areas like Scotland that voted heavily for Remain.

Edit - actually it was me that didn't read it right, or at any rate drill down to the constituencies to find the misleading bit! Sorry Diclonius.

Anyway, I am still mildly heartened to live in the 617th out of 632 most royalist constituencies.

[JeMeSouviens]

What does the pink & purple areas mean ? Once the queen dies it’s all over. Your freeloading days are history. Yip Up the Republic.

Pink - mildly disagreed to being "strong supporter of the royals"
Purple - strongly disagreed to being "strong supporter of the royals"


Unfortunately Scotland is still pro-monarchy even if we're not "strong supporters". Numbers for "support", "neither", "do not support" the monarchy are:

Scotland - 44/28/27
England - 55/26/19
Wales - 50/28/23

GB totals - 54/26/20

[Bristolhibby]

Just don’t understand the cap doffing servitude of Monarchy supporters.

And the fact that there is one person in the U.K. who is above the law is ridiculous. The Queen cannot ever prosecute The Queen.

J

[CloudSquall]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria

I've always liked the idea to reinstate the House of Stuart for maximum Hun seethe :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria

I've always liked the idea to reinstate the House of Stuart for maximum Hun seethe :greengrin

Morganatic marriage :faf:

What a farce Royal Families are. They're no better than the rest of us, except that they have blue blood.

[cabbageandribs1875]

22714

i've disliked Slab for 40 years, and always will :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Oil and Gas has been under taxed for years now compared to what the Norwegians are bringing in. A cynic might think it helps Scotland look poverty stricken every year when the gers figures come out.


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[Smartie]

Oil and Gas has been under taxed for years now compared to what the Norwegians are bringing in. A cynic might think it helps Scotland look poverty stricken every year when the gers figures come out.


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I thought the oil and gas were very heavily taxed?

I seem to remember someone telling me about petrol being taxed in about 7 different ways before it ended up in your car.

[JeMeSouviens]

I thought the oil and gas were very heavily taxed?

I seem to remember someone telling me about petrol being taxed in about 7 different ways before it ended up in your car.

We pay a ton of duty and vat to fill our cars but that’s not the same as the tax the oil companies pay to extract it in the first place.

I’m not sure Norway is an easy comparison because I think Statoil does most (all?) of the drilling in the Norwegian sector and it’s state owned.

[RyeSloan]

Oil and Gas has been under taxed for years now compared to what the Norwegians are bringing in. A cynic might think it helps Scotland look poverty stricken every year when the gers figures come out.


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What makes you say it has been under taxed?

My understanding is that the marginal tax rate on oil and gas profits in the UK is 40%.

Previously there was also an additional tax on some of the mega fields found in the 70 / 80’s but as most of them are now gone or are not providing outsized profits that tax is effectively defunct.

[cabbageandribs1875]

congrats to Nicola Sturgeon in winning the Herald scottish politician of the year award....for a record 5th time :not worth

[Hibrandenburg]

Farage outlining his plan to decimate Labour by taking voters off them who would never vote Tory but are willing to vote for him. If it comes off then it will only confirm what I've been saying for years, many of the so called Socialists are in fact National Socialists.

[cabbageandribs1875]

another by-election success yesterday, SNP hold

The SNP have swept to victory in an Aberdeen by-election.
The party’s candidate Audrey Nicoll received the most votes with 1,618 and has been elected as the new councillor for Torry/Ferryhill.
The Scottish Conservatives’ Neil Murray came in second with 972 votes, while Labour’s Willie Young trailed in third place with 395 votes.
Voters in Torry/Ferryhill went to the polls yesterday to elect a new councillor following the resignation of SNP member Catriona Mackenzie.

elsewhere, the only brexit party candidate in scotland quit the other day

[One Day Soon]

Farage outlining his plan to decimate Labour by taking voters off them who would never vote Tory but are willing to vote for him. If it comes off then it will only confirm what I've been saying for years, many of the so called Socialists are in fact National Socialists.

Some people feel the same way about, err, Nationalists who claim to be Socialists...

[NAE NOOKIE]

What does the pink & purple areas mean ? Once the queen dies it’s all over. Your freeloading days are history. Yip Up the Republic.

Very much on the cards. The queen's current personal popularity is to quite a large degree holding back the tide, even fervent royalists cant stand Charles, never mind the public at large, and given the longevity their privileged lifestyle affords them he is likely to be king for a good 20 to 30 years before their idol William gets his shot .. by that time the damage will have been done :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Some people feel the same way about, err, Nationalists who claim to be Socialists...

Fair comment but the proof of the pudding is in the policies. You'll be hard pushed to find a nationalist, racist or exclusionional policy in the SNP manifesto, other than the desire for self determination. Just listening to Farage presenting his policies and it's strewn with xenophobia.

[Pretty Boy]

Very much on the cards. The queen's current personal popularity is to quite a large degree holding back the tide, even fervent royalists cant stand Charles, never mind the public at large, and given the longevity their privileged lifestyle affords them he is likely to be king for a good 20 to 30 years before their idol William gets his shot .. by that time the damage will have been done :greengrin

It's worth bearing in mind that a journalist might be brave enough to report on Williams infidelities in a mainstream news outlet in the intervening period.

Another royal who (allegedly) can't keep it in his trousers.

[Future17]

It's worth bearing in mind that a journalist might be brave enough to report on Williams infidelities in a mainstream news outlet in the intervening period.

Another royal who (allegedly) can't keep it in his trousers.

Not that I'm an avid Royal-watcher, but I've genuinely never heard that. Are you able to elaborate without being sued or taken out by MFI? :greengrin

[The Modfather]

It's worth bearing in mind that a journalist might be brave enough to report on Williams infidelities in a mainstream news outlet in the intervening period.

Another royal who (allegedly) can't keep it in his trousers.

A quick google search and I’m doubtful. You wouldn’t, allegedly, cheat on Kate, not for the woman in the rumour anyway. Thus, my scientific analysis has debunked that one 😀

[Hibrandenburg]

A quick google search and I’m doubtful. You wouldn’t, allegedly, cheat on Kate, not for the woman in the rumour anyway. Thus, my scientific analysis has debunked that one 😀

They said the same about his dad, Diana and Camilla.

[JeMeSouviens]

A quick google search and I’m doubtful. You wouldn’t, allegedly, cheat on Kate, not for the woman in the rumour anyway. Thus, my scientific analysis has debunked that one 😀

Camilla V Diana? He might not have kept in his jeans but maybe kept it in his genes (boom, boom). :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

they said the same about his dad, diana and camilla.

snap!

[Hibrandenburg]

snap!

:greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

We pay a ton of duty and vat to fill our cars but that’s not the same as the tax the oil companies pay to extract it in the first place.

I’m not sure Norway is an easy comparison because I think Statoil does most (all?) of the drilling in the Norwegian sector and it’s state owned.

Statoil. “Here’s what you could have won”.

Sigh.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Support for Scottish independence is at its highest level since the aftermath of the EU referendum. Our poll tracker now suggests 49% of Scots would vote Yes.

See more:
https://t.co/5EYTdKcoFS https://t.co/r7gaeoMSfb

[Hibrandenburg]

Any interview with Nicola Sturgeon:

Q. Can you confirm that the SNP will push for another referendum in 2020?

A. Yes. I think I've made that clear.

Q. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn/Boris Johnson will grant Scotland another independence referendum?

A. Jeremy Corbyn/Boris Johnson should respect the democratic will of the Scottish electorate.

Q. Will you be looking for a mandate on the 12th of December to hold another referendum?

A. We already have a mandate from the last Scottish Parliament elections.

News Headlines:

STURGEON CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT INDEPENDENCE

[Callum_62]

Farage outlining his plan to decimate Labour by taking voters off them who would never vote Tory but are willing to vote for him. If it comes off then it will only confirm what I've been saying for years, many of the so called Socialists are in fact National Socialists.He better get a move on then because they are basically disappearing into oblivion after he shat the bed

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[Cataplana]

Did anyone catch the Tory ministers snide allusion to Labour relieing on a "Celtic Alliance" to gain power, on QT last night.

What a sinister glimpse into the future of the Union that is. Once they stop blaming the EU, we'll be next.

[SHODAN]

Support for Scottish independence is at its highest level since the aftermath of the EU referendum. Our poll tracker now suggests 49% of Scots would vote Yes.

See more:
https://t.co/5EYTdKcoFS https://t.co/r7gaeoMSfb

And the only thing we have to do in a referendum campaign is repeat the line "Boris Johnson leads a majority Conservative government" over and over. That's why they won't give permission.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/79033556_10157730427819297_4069098552201052160_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=5CGeQPElbVoAQm-dFaD28kxm4Di1jHrhlxPRkba4MsGcrYpKMoe1jIwIA&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=388790bea3aab2324970dc61ebce2479&oe=5E40961C

[lord bunberry]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/79033556_10157730427819297_4069098552201052160_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=5CGeQPElbVoAQm-dFaD28kxm4Di1jHrhlxPRkba4MsGcrYpKMoe1jIwIA&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=388790bea3aab2324970dc61ebce2479&oe=5E40961C
An excellent point my friend a good woman and a good politician was hounded out for nothing. She did nothing wrong, she spent some of her budget but not all of it on shoes. If she’d spent it on shirts and ties there wouldn’t have been a story. Some of the people on here who have condemned her should be utterly ashamed of themselves. You know who you are.

[RyeSloan]

An excellent point my friend a good woman and a good politician was hounded out for nothing. She did nothing wrong, she spent some of her budget but not all of it on shoes. If she’d spent it on shirts and ties there wouldn’t have been a story. Some of the people on here who have condemned her should be utterly ashamed of themselves. You know who you are.

Is it an excellent point?

Do you have the any idea as to what his expenses relate to and how they can be compared?

[Future17]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/79033556_10157730427819297_4069098552201052160_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=5CGeQPElbVoAQm-dFaD28kxm4Di1jHrhlxPRkba4MsGcrYpKMoe1jIwIA&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=388790bea3aab2324970dc61ebce2479&oe=5E40961C

What is the original source for this?

[marinello59]

Is it an excellent point?

Do you have the any idea as to what his expenses relate to and how they can be compared?

It’s comparing apples with pears. The figure for Bolander is her clothing allowance, not her expenses. Her expenses came to around £6000 for 20018/19.
Crocket’s figure, (who like all Labour members of Aberdeen Council is currently suspended from the party) appears to include all the foreign travel he made as a member of various International bodies. Or it may refer to the raiding of the common good fund for hospitality purposes, both of which received adverse publicity at the
time rather than being hushed up. I don’t think there is a more shameful group of chancers in Scotland than the ‘Labour’ group in Aberdeen.
That meme is not really truthful though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it an excellent point?

Do you have the any idea as to what his expenses relate to and how they can be compared?

2018/19 over £13.5k on travel to MEXICO, COLUMBIA* among others.

Over £11k on subsistence*

Why would an Aberdeen provost be going to Mexico and Columbia

As an ex council employee I can remember having subsistence claims refused because "I should have taken a packed lunch out to site visits" One rule for the workers and a different one for the rulers!

*Source, the P&J


2017/18 Travel almost £11k

over £5k subsistence

[RyeSloan]

over £13.5k on travel to MEXICO, COLUMBIA* among others.

Over £11k on subsistence*

Why would an Aberdeen provost be going to Mexico and Columbia

As an ex council employee I can remember having subsistence claims refused because "I should have taken a packed lunch out to site visits" One rule for the workers and a different one for the rulers!

*Source, the P&J

So not on shirts and ties then? Nor any grooming claims against the common good fund?

I’m not defending Aberdeen council (who would!) but none the less the figures are not comparable nor is there a unionist plot not to highlight his spending.

It’s also interesting that Eve Bollander has now agreed to repay almost £2,000 of the expenses claimed. For someone who did no wrong she has resigned due to the claims, apologised unreservedly and now is returning a quarter of the cash....

[RyeSloan]

No mention here yet on the latest PISA results.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855

Considering the propensity of some to compare Scotland’s NHS performance to England I’m curious if those same people are prepared to do the same on Education?

The results continue to show that Scotland’s decline in performance in two of the key areas has now become entrenched with reading attainment effectively just back to levels seen over a decade ago.

Still at least the Education Secretary considers them a ‘good result’ which is a relief as there was me thinking the marked decline in Maths and Science might have been cause for concern...

[marinello59]

No mention here yet on the latest PISA results.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855

Considering the propensity of some to compare Scotland’s NHS performance to England I’m curious if those same people are prepared to do the same on Education?

The results continue to show that Scotland’s decline in performance in two of the key areas has now become entrenched with reading attainment effectively just back to levels seen over a decade ago.

Still at least the Education Secretary considers them a ‘good result’ which is a relief as there was me thinking the marked decline in Maths and Science might have been cause for concern...

This has got everything to to do with the failings of the SNP but really has nothing to do with the case for Independence. Swinney’s attempts to spin this as anything other than failure though was insulting.

[Ozyhibby]

No mention here yet on the latest PISA results.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855

Considering the propensity of some to compare Scotland’s NHS performance to England I’m curious if those same people are prepared to do the same on Education?

The results continue to show that Scotland’s decline in performance in two of the key areas has now become entrenched with reading attainment effectively just back to levels seen over a decade ago.

Still at least the Education Secretary considers them a ‘good result’ which is a relief as there was me thinking the marked decline in Maths and Science might have been cause for concern...

I’ll mention it. It’s nowhere near good enough and the SNP need a long hard look at themselves. Fact is that the reforms introduced in England by Michael Gove are working and producing results but there is ideological resistance to those reforms here. It will need political bravery to push them through, ironically that was in short supply in England and they moved Gove on but the reforms mostly remain in place.
Luckily for the SNP nobody else in Scottish politics are suggesting any solutions so they will be allowed to drift on.



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[JeMeSouviens]

No mention here yet on the latest PISA results.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855

Considering the propensity of some to compare Scotland’s NHS performance to England I’m curious if those same people are prepared to do the same on Education?

The results continue to show that Scotland’s decline in performance in two of the key areas has now become entrenched with reading attainment effectively just back to levels seen over a decade ago.

Still at least the Education Secretary considers them a ‘good result’ which is a relief as there was me thinking the marked decline in Maths and Science might have been cause for concern...

I'm not sure PISA scores are a sensible measure of education performance:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/06/oecd-pisa-tests-damaging-education-academics

In particular, it seems to run contrary to the ethos of the curriculum for elephants. So aiui (as usual, very superficially) we have:

PISA - teaching measurable things kids know by memory

vs

CfE - teaching strategies to find things out

When interviewing for technical roles (I'm in software) I much prefer a candidate who can demonstrate they can think their way through something they don't know over someone who either "just knows" or "just doesn't".

This is not to say I think Scotgov is doing a stellar job in education. I think the CfE is broadly a good thing but I have no idea how well it's being implemented and the outcomes would take years to measure (if that's even possible).

As usual in Scottish politics, PISA has been co-opted into the Yes-No struggle because obviously you'd want to stick with the Union if you value your kids learning their times tables as well as kids in Singapore. Even though we're in the Union and they're currently not. At this point, I'm lost :confused:

[RyeSloan]

I'm not sure PISA scores are a sensible measure of education performance:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/06/oecd-pisa-tests-damaging-education-academics

In particular, it seems to run contrary to the ethos of the curriculum for elephants. So aiui (as usual, very superficially) we have:

PISA - teaching measurable things kids know by memory

vs

CfE - teaching strategies to find things out

When interviewing for technical roles (I'm in software) I much prefer a candidate who can demonstrate they can think their way through something they don't know over someone who either "just knows" or "just doesn't".

This is not to say I think Scotgov is doing a stellar job in education. I think the CfE is broadly a good thing but I have no idea how well it's being implemented and the outcomes would take years to measure (if that's even possible).

As usual in Scottish politics, PISA has been co-opted into the Yes-No struggle because obviously you'd want to stick with the Union if you value your kids learning their times tables as well as kids in Singapore. Even though we're in the Union and they're currently not. At this point, I'm lost :confused:

It’s a fair point that a measurement is only as good as the measurement [emoji57]

It is though probably the only method of international comparison currently and while it may have flaws (what measurement doesn’t) it still holds weight.

I’m also not sure about it being a Yes / No thing. To me it’s actually something that Scotland does have effective full control over and therefore is, to some degree at least, a measure of how successful that approach is.

[JeMeSouviens]

It’s a fair point that a measurement is only as good as the measurement [emoji57]

It is though probably the only method of international comparison currently and while it may have flaws (what measurement doesn’t) it still holds weight.

I’m also not sure about it being a Yes / No thing. To me it’s actually something that Scotland does have effective full control over and therefore is, to some degree at least, a measure of how successful that approach is.

It's not just about the measurement, it's about what they're measuring and the fact that PISA becoming the be all and end all of education is driving the curriculum to be based on the measurement rather than the other way round.

It's worth reading the link I gave above.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191205/b8d8ca50f6350f1cd0f8d712be413449.jpg

Appears it’s not all bad in Scottish Education. Still think more can be done.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Scottish Fisherman's Federation now supporting the SNP....took them long enough, just need them all signing up to a brighter future in an independent Scotland


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78678871_156052602317817_6938412631808016384_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFpLWLVFbNI9nzTWOIa56NOpCmhXkwG2MynnHdx2 OPMUMk7mrua7kQATm7G_02kDBK2lr5LBGYcmMJ2tS8vMYZD8TQ sKLV0qJ1iPYIca2ihaA&_nc_ohc=ZnHpBRhn8o0AQmL2KF_XweCTFMawsUzvCUTcL44vCJ AgV0fprE4fZ22BQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=995c6f1f466191156d477603f777360f&oe=5E8650F5

we need them being a lot more vocal in the Scottish msm though.....good luck with that one

just need the Farmers to wakey wakey next :agree:

[One Day Soon]

Scottish Fisherman's Federation now supporting the SNP....took them long enough, just need them all signing up to a brighter future in an independent Scotland


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78678871_156052602317817_6938412631808016384_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFpLWLVFbNI9nzTWOIa56NOpCmhXkwG2MynnHdx2 OPMUMk7mrua7kQATm7G_02kDBK2lr5LBGYcmMJ2tS8vMYZD8TQ sKLV0qJ1iPYIca2ihaA&_nc_ohc=ZnHpBRhn8o0AQmL2KF_XweCTFMawsUzvCUTcL44vCJ AgV0fprE4fZ22BQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=995c6f1f466191156d477603f777360f&oe=5E8650F5

we need them being a lot more vocal in the Scottish msm though.....good luck with that one

just need the Farmers to wakey wakey next :agree:


Except that this isn't the Scottish Fishermen's Federation backing the SNP...

[Mibbes Aye]

Scottish Fisherman's Federation now supporting the SNP....took them long enough, just need them all signing up to a brighter future in an independent Scotland


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78678871_156052602317817_6938412631808016384_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFpLWLVFbNI9nzTWOIa56NOpCmhXkwG2MynnHdx2 OPMUMk7mrua7kQATm7G_02kDBK2lr5LBGYcmMJ2tS8vMYZD8TQ sKLV0qJ1iPYIca2ihaA&_nc_ohc=ZnHpBRhn8o0AQmL2KF_XweCTFMawsUzvCUTcL44vCJ AgV0fprE4fZ22BQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=995c6f1f466191156d477603f777360f&oe=5E8650F5

we need them being a lot more vocal in the Scottish msm though.....good luck with that one

just need the Farmers to wakey wakey next :agree:

Where do you get the ‘Scottish Fisherman’s Federation’ from? Is that just made up?

Also, should it not be ‘Fishermens’s’

[allmodcons]

Scottish Fisherman's Federation now supporting the SNP....took them long enough, just need them all signing up to a brighter future in an independent Scotland


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78678871_156052602317817_6938412631808016384_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFpLWLVFbNI9nzTWOIa56NOpCmhXkwG2MynnHdx2 OPMUMk7mrua7kQATm7G_02kDBK2lr5LBGYcmMJ2tS8vMYZD8TQ sKLV0qJ1iPYIca2ihaA&_nc_ohc=ZnHpBRhn8o0AQmL2KF_XweCTFMawsUzvCUTcL44vCJ AgV0fprE4fZ22BQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=995c6f1f466191156d477603f777360f&oe=5E8650F5

we need them being a lot more vocal in the Scottish msm though.....good luck with that one

just need the Farmers to wakey wakey next :agree:


Except that this isn't the Scottish Fishermen's Federation backing the SNP...


Where do you get the ‘Scottish Fisherman’s Federation’ from? Is that just made up?

Also, should it not be ‘Fishermens’s’

I think his company, the Klondyke Fishing Company, is the largest fish selling company in the UK. I could be wrong but they are most definitely one of the largest.

His intervention is seen as a major boost to the SNP candidate in Banff & Buchan and could tip the scales in favour of their effort to take back the seat.

For what it's worth, the SFF have not endorsed any candidate or party and whilst it would be fair to say that a majority of fisherman want Brexit to happen there is a large minority who would want to stay in the EU subject to the CFP being tweaked.

The SNP policy of zonal allocation is widely supported throughout the industry but IMO would be very difficult to implement.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think his company, the Klondyke Fishing Company, is the largest fish selling company in the UK. I could be wrong but they are most definitely one of the largest.

His intervention is seen as a major boost to the SNP candidate in Banff & Buchan and could tip the scales in favour of their effort to take back the seat.

For what it's worth, the SFF have not endorsed any candidate or party and whilst it would be fair to say that a majority of fisherman want Brexit to happen there is a large minority who would want to stay in the EU subject to the CFP being tweaked.

The SNP policy of zonal allocation is widely supported throughout the industry but IMO would be very difficult to implement.

Yeah, when I read the first five words saying “..It is my personal view”, then it wasn’t much of a leap to assume he wasn’t speaking for the SFF and didn’t have any right to do so.

[One Day Soon]

I think his company, the Klondyke Fishing Company, is the largest fish selling company in the UK. I could be wrong but they are most definitely one of the largest.

His intervention is seen as a major boost to the SNP candidate in Banff & Buchan and could tip the scales in favour of their effort to take back the seat.

For what it's worth, the SFF have not endorsed any candidate or party and whilst it would be fair to say that a majority of fisherman want Brexit to happen there is a large minority who would want to stay in the EU subject to the CFP being tweaked.

The SNP policy of zonal allocation is widely supported throughout the industry but IMO would be very difficult to implement.


He's emphatically not the Scottish Fishermen's Federation. Neither is his declaration of support for the local SNP candidates much of an earth shattering surprise:

"A wealthy fisheries businessman provided a last-minute £100,000 boost to the coffers of the pro-independence campaign.
William Tait Snr, 72, holds five directorships, including at a company that attracted controversy when four other members of his family admitted illegally landing herring and mackerel.

The men from Klondyke Fishing Company Ltd, which is based in Aberdeenshire, pleaded guilty in 2012 to falsely declaring the amount of fish landed to evade the annual quota allowed for their boats.
Mr Tait, a supporter of Business for Scotland, made his donation in the two weeks to 5 September." The Independent, 15th September 2014

[allmodcons]

He's emphatically not the Scottish Fishermen's Federation. Neither is his declaration of support for the local SNP candidates much of an earth shattering surprise:

"A wealthy fisheries businessman provided a last-minute £100,000 boost to the coffers of the pro-independence campaign.
William Tait Snr, 72, holds five directorships, including at a company that attracted controversy when four other members of his family admitted illegally landing herring and mackerel.

The men from Klondyke Fishing Company Ltd, which is based in Aberdeenshire, pleaded guilty in 2012 to falsely declaring the amount of fish landed to evade the annual quota allowed for their boats.
Mr Tait, a supporter of Business for Scotland, made his donation in the two weeks to 5 September." The Independent, 15th September 2014

It may not be a "surprise" but, believe me, is a major intervention in Banff & Buchan.

Everybody in the constituency knows he's an Nationalist but in the past has been critical of the SNP's approach to Fishing.

He is the first major player in the industry to release a statement that is at odds with Tory Policy and is correct in saying that all they have is soundbites (i.e. - "Independent Coastal State" and "out of the CPF"). Nothing but nothing has been agreed with the EU in the 'deal' that has been obtained by our buffoon of a PM.

IMO his intervention will swing this marginal constituency back in to the hands of the SNP.

[lapsedhibee]

Where do you get the ‘Scottish Fisherman’s Federation’ from?

Also, should it not be ‘Fishermens’s’

No.

[marinello59]

It may not be a "surprise" but, believe me, is a major intervention in Banff & Buchan.

Everybody in the constituency knows he's an Nationalist but in the past has been critical of the SNP's approach to Fishing.

He is the first major player in the industry to release a statement that is at odds with Tory Policy and is correct in saying that all they have is soundbites (i.e. - "Independent Coastal State" and "out of the CPF"). Nothing but nothing has been agreed with the EU in the 'deal' that has been obtained by our buffoon of a PM.

IMO his intervention will swing this marginal constituency back in to the hands of the SNP.

I doubt he will change many minds. The Tait’s aren’t that widely respected. Rightly or wrongly they are viewed as being a bit dodgy.

[allmodcons]

I doubt he will change many minds. The Tait’s aren’t that widely respected. Rightly or wrongly they are viewed as being a bit dodgy.

I don't agree, I'm hearing it has already had an impact and if you want confirmation of this you might want have a look at the response from the incumbent MP, David Duguid, who is panicked and, frankly, clueless on Fisheries.

As an aside it's Taits not Tait's :greengrin.

[marinello59]

I don't agree, I'm hearing it has already had an impact and if you want confirmation of this you might want have a look at the response from the incumbent MP, David Duguid, who is panicked and, frankly, clueless on Fisheries.

As an aside it's Taits not Tait's :greengrin.

I think the SNP will regain the seat but I won’t be giving Tait any credit for that.

[Glory Lurker]

Today's opinion poll is annoying. Hopefully an outlier, but could there be something in it?

[Ozyhibby]

Today's opinion poll is annoying. Hopefully an outlier, but could there be something in it?

It’s def against trend so more likely than not. A poll on Friday morning when we are looking at a hard Brexit and 5 more years of Boris Johnson might be interesting.


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[G B Young]

Today's opinion poll is annoying. Hopefully an outlier, but could there be something in it?


Might point to a similar situation to 2015 ie the majority of the Scottish electorate voting SNP when it comes to a general election, but a significant chunk of them not in favour of independence:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18086551.support-scottish-independence-fallen-according-new-poll/

[speedy_gonzales]

<snip>

In particular, it seems to run contrary to the ethos of the curriculum for elephants. So aiui (as usual, very superficially) we have:

<snip>



That's just nuts!

[Glory Lurker]

Might point to a similar situation to 2015 ie the majority of the Scottish electorate voting SNP when it comes to a general election, but a significant chunk of them not in favour of independence:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18086551.support-scottish-independence-fallen-according-new-poll/

You’re a surprising source of reassurance, GBY, but it’s all the more gratefully received for that! Thank you!:greengrin

[The Harp Awakes]

Today's opinion poll is annoying. Hopefully an outlier, but could there be something in it?

I wouldn't be too worried about the opinion poll if you are a supporter of independence. 6 months before the 2014 referendum Yes was averaging 28% in the opinion polls and steadily increased support to 45% on the day.

A similar positive campaign for change in indyref2 would see increasing support for Yes again from a 44-51% starting point depending on which opinion poll you go with.

The main obstacle to independence is actually securing a 2nd referendum.

[Smartie]

I wouldn't be too worried about the opinion poll if you are a supporter of independence. 6 months before the 2014 referendum Yes was averaging 28% in the opinion polls and steadily increased support to 45% on the day.

A similar positive campaign for change in indyref2 would see increasing support for Yes again from a 44-51% starting point depending on which opinion poll you go with.

The main obstacle to independence is actually securing a 2nd referendum.

The way I see it now is that if we get a hung parliament and a Labour/ SNP government of some sort then we have a decent chance of staying in the EU, a decent chance of an independence referendum and a decent chance of "Yes" losing the referendum.

If we get any sort of Tory government then it'll be a hard Brexit, no independence referendum but independence guaranteed during the next term after the Tories have had 5 years to inflict their special kind of misery on not just Scotland but the whole of the UK.

[Hibbyradge]

No.

Fishermans' surely?

[lapsedhibee]

Fishermans' surely?

No.

[heretoday]

The way I see it now is that if we get a hung parliament and a Labour/ SNP government of some sort then we have a decent chance of staying in the EU, a decent chance of an independence referendum and a decent chance of "Yes" losing the referendum.

If we get any sort of Tory government then it'll be a hard Brexit, no independence referendum but independence guaranteed during the next term after the Tories have had 5 years to inflict their special kind of misery on not just Scotland but the whole of the UK.

The thing is Brexit might, just might, be a success. It's a remote possibilty but it would pose a bit of a dilemma for the nats.

[Smartie]

The thing is Brexit might, just might, be a success. It's a remote possibilty but it would pose a bit of a dilemma for the nats.

It depends on how you define success.

A lot of people will consider it to be a success if they have to share their space with a few less foreign people, far less how it might impact on public services, the economy etc.

I can genuinely see absolutely no possible benefits from Brexit for Scotland other than for those who buy into red, white and blue twirly flag English / British nationalism whose sense of identity it appeals to.

Oh - look! Rangers are on tv.

[Mibbes Aye]

No.

Fishermen’s

My OP was just a typo.

[xyz23jc]

The thing is Brexit might, just might, be a success. It's a remote possibilty but it would pose a bit of a dilemma for the nats.

MBGA...Boak! :sick::greengrin

[CloudSquall]

The thing is Brexit might, just might, be a success. It's a remote possibilty but it would pose a bit of a dilemma for the nats.

I think at that point it would be best to go with a strategy of joining EFTA on independence (a position I support), they could then argue that it's the "best of both worlds".

[degenerated]

I wouldn't be too worried about the opinion poll if you are a supporter of independence. 6 months before the 2014 referendum Yes was averaging 28% in the opinion polls and steadily increased support to 45% on the day.

A similar positive campaign for change in indyref2 would see increasing support for Yes again from a 44-51% starting point depending on which opinion poll you go with.

The main obstacle to independence is actually securing a 2nd referendum.The poll was only a sub sample, 138 people were asked. Probably all from the same lodge too [emoji16]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191210/7600c7cfafcc358dd8e3371b78e6fea4.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646?mode=amp

It’s almost as if being a small independent European country is a good thing? Ireland showing us what we could be once again.


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[The Harp Awakes]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646?mode=amp

It’s almost as if being a small independent European country is a good thing? Ireland showing us what we could be once again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See how the World celebrates Paddys day and you realise how well the Irish sell themselves as a small, independent nation.

Compare that with the celebrations for St Andrew's day. Blink and you'll miss them. Scotland is stifled by the Union. Independence would open up so many opportunities for Scotland.

[danhibees1875]

See how the World celebrates Paddys day and you realise how well the Irish sell themselves as a small, independent nation.

Compare that with the celebrations for St Andrew's day. Blink and you'll miss them. Scotland is stifled by the Union. Independence would open up so many opportunities for Scotland.

So the union is to blame/thank for St Andrew's day being relatively low key in comparison to St Paddy's Day? I don't think I've ever heard that arguement made before - but it's an interesting one. Any idea as to what you think the union does that stifles us that we'd do better post-indy?

I think Scotland does quite well at promoting itself, a job that I think is "devolved" and is the FM's responsibility as it is anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

So the union is to blame/thank for St Andrew's day being relatively low key in comparison to St Paddy's Day? I don't think I've ever heard that arguement made before - but it's an interesting one. Any idea as to what you think the union does that stifles us that we'd do better post-indy?

I think Scotland does quite well at promoting itself, a job that I think is "devolved" and is the FM's responsibility as it is anyway.

I think the union stifles our GDP given that ours is lower than most other small nations in Europe. It’s almost half of Ireland’s. And they have not a bit of oil.
http://www.progressivepulse.org/brexit/scotland-and-ireland-the-road-to-independence-part-iii

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191211/7161a1d71cdcae8f566500a0b6dc9580.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

See how the World celebrates Paddys day and you realise how well the Irish sell themselves as a small, independent nation.

Compare that with the celebrations for St Andrew's day. Blink and you'll miss them. Scotland is stifled by the Union. Independence would open up so many opportunities for Scotland.

As I thnk PrettyBoy pointed out on another thread last week, that's more to do with dour Calvinist Presbyterianism vs opulent Catholic feasting.

[Peevemor]

As I thnk PrettyBoy pointed out on another thread last week, that's more to do with dour Calvinist Presbyterianism vs opulent Catholic feasting.

...and Guinness marketing.

[JeMeSouviens]

...and Guinness marketing.

Good point, that too.

[One Day Soon]

I think the union stifles our GDP given that ours is lower than most other small nations in Europe. It’s almost half of Ireland’s. And they have not a bit of oil.
http://www.progressivepulse.org/brexit/scotland-and-ireland-the-road-to-independence-part-iii

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191211/7161a1d71cdcae8f566500a0b6dc9580.jpg



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The Scottish figures in that graph don't include oil. Any idea why it starts in 2000 as opposed to any other date?

[Ozyhibby]

The Scottish figures in that graph don't include oil. Any idea why it starts in 2000 as opposed to any other date?

It’s the start of this century? Previous to that would be less important to our lives today?
Adding oil doesn’t close that figure very much at all.
Independent Ireland is a lot richer than dependent Scotland. Nobody has ever explained to me why we have to just accept that? Why should two very similar countries right next to each other have such different economies? Why should they be more wealthy than us?


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[One Day Soon]

It’s the start of this century? Previous to that would be less important to our lives today?
Adding oil doesn’t close that figure very much at all.
Independent Ireland is a lot richer than dependent Scotland. Nobody has ever explained to me why we have to just accept that? Why should two very similar countries right next to each other have such different economies? Why should they be more wealthy than us?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's an arbitrary point to start at and a longer historical picture would probably be more instructive. Oil may or may not close the gap much but unless it is included it isn't like for like.

In what way is independent Ireland 'a lot richer' than Scotland? It appears to have higher GDP but that isn't really a measure of wealth. How are they 'more wealthy' than us?

[Ozyhibby]

It's an arbitrary point to start at and a longer historical picture would probably be more instructive. Oil may or may not close the gap much but unless it is included it isn't like for like.

In what way is independent Ireland 'a lot richer' than Scotland? It appears to have higher GDP but that isn't really a measure of wealth. How are they 'more wealthy' than us?

It has a far larger economy than ours with a smaller population? How would you like to measure wealth? Just admit it, they are beating us hands down because they have the ability to attract investment that we never could because the big decisions don’t get made here, they are made in London. Investment goes to places where power is.


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

So the union is to blame/thank for St Andrew's day being relatively low key in comparison to St Paddy's Day? I don't think I've ever heard that arguement made before - but it's an interesting one. Any idea as to what you think the union does that stifles us that we'd do better post-indy?

I think Scotland does quite well at promoting itself, a job that I think is "devolved" and is the FM's responsibility as it is anyway.

Time to get Brewdog on the case!

[CloudSquall]

Can someone inform Bougainville that it is too small before it's too late?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/bougainville-referendum-region-votes-overwhelmingly-for-independence-from-papua-new-guinea

[Green Man]

Can someone inform Bougainville that it is too small before it's too late?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/bougainville-referendum-region-votes-overwhelmingly-for-independence-from-papua-new-guinea

I wasn’t expecting to see Bertie Ahern’s name in that story!

[One Day Soon]

Can someone inform Bougainville that it is too small before it's too late?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/bougainville-referendum-region-votes-overwhelmingly-for-independence-from-papua-new-guinea


You'll need John Swinney for that. He was the one who invented the phrase I believe.

[The Harp Awakes]

So the union is to blame/thank for St Andrew's day being relatively low key in comparison to St Paddy's Day? I don't think I've ever heard that arguement made before - but it's an interesting one. Any idea as to what you think the union does that stifles us that we'd do better post-indy?

I think Scotland does quite well at promoting itself, a job that I think is "devolved" and is the FM's responsibility as it is anyway.

We are in an unequal union of nations which is unsustainable. The reason it's unsustainable is that it is massively dominated in population terms by one country, England, which culturally and politically is very different from Scotland. The union is beginning to fall apart. It may take 2, 5, 10 or 20 years but it will happen.

Being part of this union, Scotland will never be as successful in selling itself as it would be if it was independent. It's not the only reason St Andrew's day is nothing compared to Paddys day, but it is certainly a factor and there is no doubt our standing in the world is eclipsed by the union. Scotland has 10 times more to offer the world than Ireland. We are not exploiting our potential and our nationality is stifled.

Ask yourself why people from many parts of the world refer to the UK as England.

[RyeSloan]

We are in an unequal union of nations which is unsustainable. The reason it's unsustainable is that it is massively dominated in population terms by one country, England, which culturally and politically is very different from Scotland. The union is beginning to fall apart. It may take 2, 5, 10 or 20 years but it will happen.

Being part of this union, Scotland will never be as successful in selling itself as it would be if it was independent. It's not the only reason St Andrew's day is nothing compared to Paddys day, but it is certainly a factor and there is no doubt our standing in the world is eclipsed by the union. Scotland has 10 times more to offer the world than Ireland. We are not exploiting our potential and our nationality is stifled.

Ask yourself why people from many parts of the world refer to the UK as England.

10 tones more than Ireland? Care to qualify that?

And let’s be honest Ireland’s GDP figure is a product more of low corporation tax levels than anything else.

As for Ireland being oh so richer than Scotland this article shows why you can’t just take gdp figures as a guide on such things.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-64-of-workers-in-ireland-earn-less-than-the-average-salary-4562071-Apr2019/%3famp=1

But if you do want to take GDP figures as the be all and end all I must admit to considering the anti Boris ‘ he wants to turn us into a tax haven’ jibes I see on here frequently enough as somewhat ironic.

[Slavers]

10 tones more than Ireland? Care to qualify that?

And let’s be honest Ireland’s GDP figure is a product more of low corporation tax levels than anything else.

As for Ireland being oh so richer than Scotland this article shows why you can’t just take gdp figures as a guide on such things.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-64-of-workers-in-ireland-earn-less-than-the-average-salary-4562071-Apr2019/%3famp=1

But if you do want to take GDP figures as the be all and end all I must admit to considering the anti Boris ‘ he wants to turn us into a tax haven’ jibes I see on here frequently enough as somewhat ironic.

Simply;

Irish Tax Haven = amazing and an example to all small countries.

Proposed UK Tax Haven = disgraceful and must be stopped!

[Future17]

10 tones more than Ireland? Care to qualify that?

I can only think of Ireland having The Wolfe Tones. :greengrin

[danhibees1875]

We are in an unequal union of nations which is unsustainable. The reason it's unsustainable is that it is massively dominated in population terms by one country, England, which culturally and politically is very different from Scotland. The union is beginning to fall apart. It may take 2, 5, 10 or 20 years but it will happen.

Being part of this union, Scotland will never be as successful in selling itself as it would be if it was independent. It's not the only reason St Andrew's day is nothing compared to Paddys day, but it is certainly a factor and there is no doubt our standing in the world is eclipsed by the union. Scotland has 10 times more to offer the world than Ireland. We are not exploiting our potential and our nationality is stifled.

Ask yourself why people from many parts of the world refer to the UK as England.

From a culture and tourism perspective I disagree with you. I think Scotland does very well at promoting itself, a job it does independently anyway through the Scottish government. If anything there's an arguement that being part of the union helps to a degree.

Scotland has much more of a brand than any other part of the UK does in my opinion. Things in England are much more likely to just be considered "British" as far as I can see. It's not an issue for them presumably because they have a much larger and more generally accepted affiliation with the term than we have up here.

To your last point, either because they sometimes just genuinely mean England even if UK could have been applicable, or due to geographical ignorance. But I don't think it's all that problematic - although I have corrected people in the past for it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Last night's Survation Scotland poll asked the Indy question and got Y49 N51. Significant in that that's now 4 separate pollsters* (all 4 that have published polls in the last few months) have all picked up a mini-surge to Yes.

Presumably, since it was also a GE poll and the number of respondents seems to be the same for all questions, this excludes 16/17 year olds and EU citizens. So Yes actually probably a couple of points in the lead on these numbers.


* 5 if you include Lord Ashcroft who's not a BPC member.

[RyeSloan]

I can only think of Ireland having The Wolfe Tones. :greengrin

[emoji106][emoji23]

[The Harp Awakes]

10 tones more than Ireland? Care to qualify that?

And let’s be honest Ireland’s GDP figure is a product more of low corporation tax levels than anything else.

As for Ireland being oh so richer than Scotland this article shows why you can’t just take gdp figures as a guide on such things.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-64-of-workers-in-ireland-earn-less-than-the-average-salary-4562071-Apr2019/%3famp=1ll I must admit to considering the anti Boris ‘ he wants to turn us into a tax haven’ jibes I see on here frequently enough as somewhat ironic.

I was generalising and not drawing conclusions from financial data. The point I'm making is that Ireland sells itself as a country very well but I believe if Scotland were to become independent it could be an even bigger success.

Don't get me wrong, I have more Irish blood in me than Scots, have traveled in Ireland extensively and love the Irish people. I just think Scotland has far more to offer in terms of natural and human resources. The advantage Ireland has is being independent.

[The Harp Awakes]

From a culture and tourism perspective I disagree with you. I think Scotland does very well at promoting itself, a job it does independently anyway through the Scottish government. If anything there's an arguement that being part of the union helps to a degree.

Scotland has much more of a brand than any other part of the UK does in my opinion. Things in England are much more likely to just be considered "British" as far as I can see. It's not an issue for them presumably because they have a much larger and more generally accepted affiliation with the term than we have up here.

To your last point, either because they sometimes just genuinely mean England even if UK could have been applicable, or due to geographical ignorance. But I don't think it's all that problematic - although I have corrected people in the past for it.

Fair do's. We can agree to disagree:aok:

[IWasThere2016]

I recall the SNP saying Scots would be +£1,400 better off per head, and the No Campaign saying -£1,400 worse off.

My logic tells me the truth is likely to be somewhere in between - and thus a small price to pay for a democratic process where Scots may get what they vote for

As a traditional (marginally) right of centre voter, I have no affinity with the Tories or Lib Dems any longer.

I think living in England has seen to that.

I am registered to vote in England - but that will change that for any Indy Ref. I will vote Yes. I no longer see a case for No.

[stuart-farquhar]

...and Guinness marketing.

Despite as a serious beer aficionado disliking Guinness, the ubiquitous advertising and gimmicky nonsense afforded to the brand is admirable to say the least. Recently a Guinness tap was in almost all pubs
It's presence is decreasing somewhat in newer bars that focus on "craft" styles and appropriate pricing of course.

Diageo are of course the owners so they massively push it along with the lager version Hop house 13. Another brand appearing on shelves and in bars despite its average mass produced quality. Whisky drinkers will no doubt be well aware of the Jonnie Walker campaigns.

[The Tubs]

Simply;

Irish Tax Haven = amazing and an example to all small countries.

Proposed UK Tax Haven = disgraceful and must be stopped!


The City of London is already the centre of tax havens worldwide. The consequential erosion of the tax base globally has probably been the UK's most significant contribution to the world since WWII.

[Callum_62]

Be interesting to see how this transpires if the results go along with exit poll predictions

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Dalianwanda]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646?mode=amp

It’s almost as if being a small independent European country is a good thing? Ireland showing us what we could be once again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldnt use Ireland as an example of a country thats got it right....Neoliberal government that prioritieses business over its people, politicians nearly all corrupt & blatant with it, homelessness going through the roof, voluture funds holding onto thousands of empty buildings,health service in crisis, government projects wildly over budget, creatives being forced out of the country with that the life being sucked out of the cities, rural areas being ignored...its not all rosey here & things need to change

[Callum_62]

I wouldnt use Ireland as an example of a country thats got it right....Neoliberal government that prioritieses business over its people, politicians nearly all corrupt & blatant with it, homelessness going through the roof, voluture funds holding onto thousands of empty buildings,health service in crisis, government projects wildly over budget, creatives being forced out of the country with that the life being sucked out of the cities, rural areas being ignored...its not all rosey here & things need to changeAtleast the Irish people can chose to change there Govt if that's the case

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Dalianwanda]

Atleast the Irish people can chose to change there Govt if that's the case

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

Yes we have that...Pity its for two parties that are virtually identical...Still, hopefully there will be big change soon enough, something has to happen as we can go on as we are..

[Cataplana]

I wouldnt use Ireland as an example of a country thats got it right....Neoliberal government that prioritieses business over its people, politicians nearly all corrupt & blatant with it, homelessness going through the roof, voluture funds holding onto thousands of empty buildings,health service in crisis, government projects wildly over budget, creatives being forced out of the country with that the life being sucked out of the cities, rural areas being ignored...its not all rosey here & things need to change

Careful Now, you're destroying some people's dewy eyed vision of the Owld Country.

[Dalianwanda]

Careful Now, you're destroying some people's dewy eyed vision of the Owld Country.

:greengrin Dont get me wrong, I love it here.........Just that things are pretty ****ed up..

[Cataplana]

:greengrin Dont get me wrong, I love it here.........Just that things are pretty ****ed up..

I Mrs Brown Da Movie was a good way of showing what is going on in Dublin. Certainly resonates with the situation in Edinburgh.

[Pretty Boy]

Just posted on the GE thread that Malcolm Chisholm has come out in support of Indyref2 on Twitter:

'Hope many of those against or undecided(me included)about independence will get behind incontrovertible democratic demand for indyref2.Hardest of hard Brexits and intolerable Johnson not what many No Voters had in mind in 2014 and SNP has 2016 changed circumstances mandate+GE2019'

Another few well kent faces in the Scottish Labour Party doing likewise in the coming days would be very interesting.

[Peevemor]

Just posted on the GE thread that Malcolm Chisholm has come out in support of Indyref2 on Twitter:

'Hope many of those against or undecided(me included)about independence will get behind incontrovertible democratic demand for indyref2.Hardest of hard Brexits and intolerable Johnson not what many No Voters had in mind in 2014 and SNP has 2016 changed circumstances mandate+GE2019'

Another few well kent faces in the Scottish Labour Party doing likewise in the coming days would be very interesting.

Good stuff!

I've always had a lot of respect for Malcolm Chisholm. He's my idea of what an MP should be, regardless of party politics.

[Pretty Boy]

Willie Rennie now describing the 'Union of countries' as a 'difficult argument'.

Are a few people starting to have a road to Damascus moment?

[Smartie]

Willie Rennie now describing the 'Union of countries' as a 'difficult argument'.

Are a few people starting to have a road to Damascus moment?

There are a lot of "decent Scottish unionists" that I know who I have to say I feel sorry for today.

I"ve been an SNP supporter throughout my adult life and it built on a fair amount of cynicism I'm not overly proud of.

There are so many people who voted differently to me during the last referendum who, whilst I don't agree with their opinion at least I could/ can totally understand their position (something I've never been able to do with the braindead idiocy of Brexit).

These folk might include proper working class Labour people who might want to stand shoulder to shoulder with like-minded folk South of the border, outward looking and pro-European LibDems, genuine "One Nation" Tories who accept a whole load of stuff like the importance of the NHS, the fact that certain things are far better run in public ownership but understand the important of business and the pragmatic truth of the situation being that the bills need to be paid by someone.

I have, in the past, bickered with these folk quite passionately. Since the Brexit referendum though, some of them - whilst not exactly crossing to going the other side yet - have expressed a softening of their views on independence, stating that in future they might just change their minds depending on circumstance.

We are now at the mercy of the Tories. It will be interesting to see what they do to placate the folk I describe, or if they manage to drive them hook, line and sinker towards backing independence in a future referendum, whenever that might be.

[Hibrandenburg]

Purely on a party level we need to convince the Lib Dems and Labour that the only way forward for a progressive social democratic society is to go it alone. We'll never get the Tories on board because they've now been delivered exactly what they want. Hopefully yesterday's election will help break down the sectarian stubbornness that we see at the polling booths and put the emphasis back on politics in Scotland rather than tribalism.

[lapsedhibee]

Thing I will miss most in Trump Britain is the quality of public service broadcasting. Foresee the hitherto largely excellent current affairs output of the BBC and Channel 4 splitting into US type partisan broadcasting, with Ch 4 going down the CNNish Johnson Bad Always line and BBC the Foxish Boris Good Always line. Painful to watch CNN and Fox political coverage, and I think it's in danger of becoming like that here. Prediction: Kuenssberg to stay at the BBC.

[ACLeith]

Good stuff!

I've always had a lot of respect for Malcolm Chisholm. He's my idea of what an MP should be, regardless of party politics.

Totally agree. His personal vote evaporated due to the candidate Labour put up to replace him. Their candidate this time was a good local guy who I hAve a lot of time for but stood no chance of stemming the tide.

[Smartie]

Purely on a party level we need to convince the Lib Dems and Labour that the only way forward for a progressive social democratic society is to go it alone. We'll never get the Tories on board because they've now been delivered exactly what they want. Hopefully yesterday's election will help break down the sectarian stubbornness that we see at the polling booths and put the emphasis back on politics in Scotland rather than tribalism.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Tories are a funny bunch and a more mixed bag than many would think. The current Tory party isn't so much a Tory party as a far right English nationalism party and that is not a popular thing amongst moderate centrists.

There will be pro-business small c Scottish Conservatives who will be gutted at the thought of Brexit, I know a few. They have a huge hurdle for them to overcome to be in favour of Scottish independence, but the thought of a centre-right party in a Scotland within the EU might not be as big a departure for them as Brexit Britain under Boris is.

I strongly suspect there will be some reflection going on his morning and over the coming months across the board in Scotland.

As an aside, when it comes to campaigning, I wonder if some people who vote for Scottish Unionist parties might be starting to get fed up with the whole message being constantly about stopping independence or stopping indyref2?

[ronaldo7]

Section 30 will be requested next week.

Game on.

[marinello59]

Section 30 will be requested next week.

Game on.

It is indeed game on. There will be a lot of No voters questioning their position today. There is a real chance to reach out to them over the next few weeks and make this a fully inclusive campaign rather than a divisive one. Let’s make sure that we take it.

[Glory Lurker]

It is indeed game on. There will be a lot of No voters questioning their position today. There is a real chance to reach out to them over the next few weeks and make this a fully inclusive campaign rather than a divisive one. Let’s make sure that we take it.

Well said. All welcome.

[One Day Soon]

With the SNP vote at 45% again I'm inclined to say bring it on. Let's get down to the bare knuckles and settle this finally - for keeps.

Unfortunately we'll have to wait until after the next SP election, which is a pity.

[puff the dragon]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

[The Modfather]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

Oh well, that’s that then. Puff The Dragon from the internet has spoken. Time to just move on I suppose...

[Cataplana]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

How tall are you?

[lapsedhibee]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

That's wrong. If there's anything to be learned from people like Redwood, Lilley and Francois it's that if you bang on and on and on and on and on and on about something for long enough, eventually someone does something to shut you up - like offer a referendum.

[CloudSquall]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

Username checks out.

[DaveF]

Section 30 will be requested next week.

Game on.

And when it's refused what next?

[lapsedhibee]

And when it's refused what next?

Placards....
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…

…. Molotov cocktails

[DaveF]

Placards....
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…

…. Molotov cocktails

Sound. Count me in.

[Ozyhibby]

Placards....
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…

…. Molotov cocktails

That’s the problem. If the Tories say there is no democratic oath to independence then that’s when the crazies come out and that’s the last thing we need.
BTW I know you weren’t being serious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

That’s the problem. If the Tories say there is no democratic oath to independence then that’s when the crazies come out and that’s the last thing we need.
BTW I know you weren’t being serious.


Nationalists have a majority of seats in Norniron for the first time. Things are changing. If Johnson or his successor were to treat people outside the borders of England in a disrespectful way over an extended period of time, I could see more than just crazies get a bit agitated about it.

[CallumLaidlaw]

It is indeed game on. There will be a lot of No voters questioning their position today. There is a real chance to reach out to them over the next few weeks and make this a fully inclusive campaign rather than a divisive one. Let’s make sure that we take it.

2 staunch SNP haters in my work today said through gritted teeth that they have no other option but to vote for Scottish independence now as the alternative given to us by the English is too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Nationalists have a majority of seats in Norniron for the first time. Things are changing. If Johnson or his successor were to treat people outside the borders of England in a disrespectful way over an extended period of time, I could see more than just crazies get a bit agitated about it.

Loyalists have been making threatening noises about blockading ports if Johnson’s Irish sea border goes ahead. That could turn v nasty. N Ireland needs a lot of care and attention in the coming months.

[JeMeSouviens]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

Probably not even a silent plurality now!

[Green Man]

Watching Nicola Sturgeon’s speech today, stirred something in me that I haven’t felt since the independence campaign in 2014. I’ve never stopped believing in independence, but know there’s a lot of work to be done to achieve it. This feels like we’re beginning the next phase of that work. The SNP can do the governmental part of it. The grassroots people have to do the real legwork. It’s not coming tomorrow, but I can see it on the horizon.

[davhibby]

The people behind Boris aren’t stupid, they’ll certainly not give us a referendum right away but they’ll know there’s a balance from their point of view where just denying one repeatedly will only result in the support for indy growing stronger. They’ll want to try and avoid that

[Green Man]

Yep. Next week’s request will be rejected immediately, but there’s no chance of the SNP saying “ok then” and going quiet. I think the initial rejection will be good as support for independence will rise. I don’t know how it will all play out, but something has to happen.

[Pretty Boy]

I think that there needs to be a few moments set aside for people to take a deep breath and take stock of where we are today. I'm seeing a lot of, perhaps understandable, triumphalism on social media and some of it is bordering on being a bit personal or nasty. A bad winner is almost as bad as a bad loser.

The Yes movement is suddenly in a very strong position. When you consider the starting point for the 2014 referendum had support for yes at around 25% then to have a core yes vote of 45% as a starting point is phenomenal. However we need more people on board. Whether people like it or not every single one of us is now an ambassador for a yes vote and with that comes a responsibility. There's a threatened status quo ready to use a threatened press to push their propaganda and every ill thought out social media post and every negative online interaction is a few clicks away from being painted as the offensive ramblings of a 'cybernat'. We have control over that if we do things properly. I hope the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and everyone else under the yes umbrella is reminding their staff, their members and their supporters of that responsibility now.

There are going to be a lot of bewildered centre left Labour supporters looking for a new home today, a lot of Lib Dems and perhaps even a few centrist Tories who see independence as less of a threat than Johnson's Brexit. They aren't going to be brought on board by being mocked, taunted or laughed at. They need it to be made clear to them that they are welcome and they have made the right choice.

[Northernhibee]

I think that there needs to be a few moments set aside for people to take a deep breath and take stock of where we are today. I'm seeing a lot of, perhaps understandable, triumphalism on social media and some of it is bordering on being a bit personal or nasty. A bad winner is almost as bad as a bad loser.

The Yes movement is suddenly in a very strong position. When you consider the starting point for the 2014 referendum had support for yes at around 25% then to have a core yes vote of 45% as a starting point is phenomenal. However we need more people on board. Whether people like it or not every single one of us is now an ambassador for a yes vote and with that comes a responsibility. There's a threatened status quo ready to use a threatened press to push their propaganda and every ill thought out social media post and every negative online interaction is a few clicks away from being painted as the offensive ramblings of a 'cybernat'. We have control over that if we do things properly. I hope the SNP, the Greens, the SSP and everyone else under the yes umbrella is reminding their staff, their members and their supporters of that responsibility now.

There are going to be a lot of bewildered centre left Labour supporters looking for a new home today, a lot of Lib Dems and perhaps even a few centrist Tories who see independence as less of a threat than Johnson's Brexit. They aren't going to be brought on board by being mocked, taunted or laughed at. They need it to be made clear to them that they are welcome and they have made the right choice.


I've said before on here, I've changed my mind on independence. Back in 2013/14 (I forget which year) I was able to ask Alex Salmond about a concern I had in regards to independence and maybe I caught him at the wrong time he was just downright dismissive.

If he came back to me the following week to say that what's unfolded in these last few weeks was going to happen I'd have thought "Aye, right ye fanny" and not believed him.

Holding out a hand of friendship and understanding and being patient will win another referendum.

[danhibees1875]

I think the answer will be no for now and we'll have to wait for the Scottish elections before there's another push for one on the back of another vote being a theoretical mandate for a referendum.

Personally, despite thinking there are a lot of good arguements for why Scotland should be independent and making our own decisions I don't think it's the time for yet another devisive vote. The result would be tight, and either a slender no or yes doesn't sound like an attractive outcome. The fallout from 52/48 leave shows this over the last couple of years. It's not been a pleasant place politically.
I think we should take Brexit and Boris (2 things I'm ardently against) and see how things progress with both, use the devolution we do currently have/any more we get to be as progressive as possible, show to a much wider base of people that we can do so much better when given the means to do so, and then win with a decisive yes vote of 60%+ in a decade, or 2, or whatever it takes to get a sizeable majority willing to move forward. I think that would set us off on a much stronger footing than taking a slender majority and breaking away from a mid-brexit UK.

I think it's going to be even more devisive than previously as people are generally only more engrained in their viewpoint now. The Yes vote strengthened with Brexit, and the process around Brexit that shows something dismissed so heavily in Scotland can still be forced upon us (generally, I know there's an argument that not everyone here voted remain and there were plenty remain voters in England). The No vote strengthened by the increased friction between Scotland and what would be a non-EU England. The scale of that problem will be seen once the Irish problem is resolved, but having a anything like a hard border with our only geographical land neighbors and largest trading partners is going to be a hard sell. The softer yes and no votes could be swayed to the other sides due to those arguements, but the harder ones will just go harder away from any middle ground I reckon.

It just seems like a good time to take a breath, analyse the situation, and work on the day to day issues - and larger environmental crisis - before prioritising constitutional issues.
To my knowledge there's no need to rush through with another referendum. Unless the EU come out and say that any individual country within the UK can remain in the EU as the others leave but would find it very hard to later re-enter - that would give Scotland, NI, and maybe Wales (I think they voted leave, but seem to return remain supporting MPs) something to decide more imminently.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yep. Next week’s request will be rejected immediately, but there’s no chance of the SNP saying “ok then” and going quiet. I think the initial rejection will be good as support for independence will rise. I don’t know how it will all play out, but something has to happen.

Boris gets 56% of the seats in Westminster and it's a clear mandate for Brexit.

SNP take 81% of the seats in Holyrood and it's not a mandate for indyref2.

Northern Ireland has now more Republican MP's than unionist for the first time ever.

That's dangerous anti democratic rhetoric and the kind of
talk that has sparked armed conflict elsewhere. Boris is playing with fire.

[Moulin Yarns]

Independence booted into the long grass for 5 years as Boris says no.

Labour return with David miliband in 5 years and sweep the board in the U.K. turning Scotland unionist red again.

The fallout from the Salmond trial to be determined once the verdict is delivered in Spring. If he's guilty then the SNP could be torn apart from the inside.

Not going to get a vote in your lifetime chaps, no matter how much noise you make about it.

The silent majority can rest at ease for the considerable future.

The only thing missing from this is



Mon Scottish Labour 😉🤔

[Ozyhibby]

I think the answer will be no for now and we'll have to wait for the Scottish elections before there's another push for one on the back of another vote being a theoretical mandate for a referendum.

Personally, despite thinking there are a lot of good arguements for why Scotland should be independent and making our own decisions I don't think it's the time for yet another devisive vote. The result would be tight, and either a slender no or yes doesn't sound like an attractive outcome. The fallout from 52/48 leave shows this over the last couple of years. It's not been a pleasant place politically.
I think we should take Brexit and Boris (2 things I'm ardently against) and see how things progress with both, use the devolution we do currently have/any more we get to be as progressive as possible, show to a much wider base of people that we can do so much better when given the means to do so, and then win with a decisive yes vote of 60%+ in a decade, or 2, or whatever it takes to get a sizeable majority willing to move forward. I think that would set us off on a much stronger footing than taking a slender majority and breaking away from a mid-brexit UK.

I think it's going to be even more devisive than previously as people are generally only more engrained in their viewpoint now. The Yes vote strengthened with Brexit, and the process around Brexit that shows something dismissed so heavily in Scotland can still be forced upon us (generally, I know there's an argument that not everyone here voted remain and there were plenty remain voters in England). The No vote strengthened by the increased friction between Scotland and what would be a non-EU England. The scale of that problem will be seen once the Irish problem is resolved, but having a anything like a hard border with our only geographical land neighbors and largest trading partners is going to be a hard sell. The softer yes and no votes could be swayed to the other sides due to those arguements, but the harder ones will just go harder away from any middle ground I reckon.

It just seems like a good time to take a breath, analyse the situation, and work on the day to day issues - and larger environmental crisis - before prioritising constitutional issues.
To my knowledge there's no need to rush through with another referendum. Unless the EU come out and say that any individual country within the UK can remain in the EU as the others leave but would find it very hard to later re-enter - that would give Scotland, NI, and maybe Wales (I think they voted leave, but seem to return remain supporting MPs) something to decide more imminently.

The situation we are in requires a bit of haste. We won’t totally leave the EU for another 18 months and that gives us a bit of time to decide if we want independence and to stay in the EU. Was we are fully withdrawn, getting back in would be more difficult as we diverge from the EU.
If part of the UK was to say we wish to remain part of the EU once independent, we would be welcomed with open arms. We bring a lot to the table. The EU would love Scotland to be part of its single market and customs union.


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[ronaldo7]

And when it's refused what next?

She's not told me yet, however she has said that it'll be fully laid out next week.

I can wait a few days. 👍

[CloudSquall]

When the request for Section 30 gets rejected the SNP will need to take it to the courts.


I am absolutely loving the open goal unionists are offering up with the "they got less than 50% of the vote so don't have a mandate" line given it means Boris has no mandate for Brexit, Ponsonby absolutely skewering a Tory last night on this :greengrin

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1205476505465307136

[makaveli1875]

When the request for Section 30 gets rejected the SNP will need to take it to the courts.


I am absolutely loving the open goal unionists are offering up with the "they got less than 50% of the vote so don't have a mandate" line given it means Boris has no mandate for Brexit, Ponsonby absolutely skewering a Tory last night on this :greengrin

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1205476505465307136

Not so sure Boris will flat out reject it , unless he's as stupid as he looks .

[heretoday]

Boris will say ask me again in a couple of years.
Frankly, after Brexit, have we not had enough disruption for a while?

[Peevemor]

Not so sure Boris will flat out reject it , unless he's as stupid as he looks .I'm fairly certain that the SNP have some sort of legal manoeuvre ready to ensure that indyref 2 goes ahead legitimately. In addition, Bojo now knows that the courts will overrule the government when legally justified.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm fairly certain that the SNP have some sort of legal manoeuvre ready to ensure that indyref 2 goes ahead legitimately. In addition, Bojo now knows that the courts will overrule the government when legally justified.
See p48 of the Tory manifesto.

[Ozyhibby]

Staying in the EU is now the most important selling point for the Yes movement. They are going to have to work hard now on getting senior EU politicians to send out the right signals.
The SNP/Yes base is in the bag at a pretty solid 45%. What wins the referendum is getting the middle class remainers on board.


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[Cataplana]

Staying in the EU is now the most important selling point for the Yes movement. They are going to have to work hard now on getting senior EU politicians to send out the right signals.
The SNP/Yes base is in the bag at a pretty solid 45%. What wins the referendum is getting the middle class remainers on board.


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The pensioners are key. They need to be reassured that there will be no interruption to their payments during transition.

[Ozyhibby]

The pensioners are key. They need to be reassured that there will be no interruption to their payments during transition.

I would go further and offer them a rise in line with the EU average and no change in retirement age.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I would go further and offer them a rise in line with the EU average and no change in retirement age.


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Not sure they deserve it :faf:

[danhibees1875]

The situation we are in requires a bit of haste. We won’t totally leave the EU for another 18 months and that gives us a bit of time to decide if we want independence and to stay in the EU. Was we are fully withdrawn, getting back in would be more difficult as we diverge from the EU.
If part of the UK was to say we wish to remain part of the EU once independent, we would be welcomed with open arms. We bring a lot to the table. The EU would love Scotland to be part of its single market and customs union.


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I get the theory behind that but I'm not sure if it's actually true in practice. How far would we actually diverge as a country that could impact how we join the EU?

[marinello59]

She's not told me yet, however she has said that it'll be fully laid out next week.

I can wait a few days. 👍

AUOB planning a march in Glasgow for January. Might see you there R7. I may even bring a saltire. :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

AUOB planning a march in Glasgow for January. Might see you there R7. I may even bring a saltire. :greengrin

I've never really been one for these marches before but if this goes ahead as planned then I'll be there.

[Hibrandenburg]

AUOB planning a march in Glasgow for January. Might see you there R7. I may even bring a saltire. :greengrin

What dates are we talking about? I might fly over, seeing you waving a saltire would be worth the airfare on it's own. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

AUOB planning a march in Glasgow for January. Might see you there R7. I may even bring a saltire. :greengrin

Forget the saltire, bring yer Granny instead. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

Forget the saltire, bring yer Granny instead. [emoji23]

And an EU flag.[emoji1099][emoji2528]


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[Moulin Yarns]

What dates are we talking about? I might fly over, seeing you waving a saltire would be worth the airfare on it's own. :greengrin

The 11th.

[Hibrandenburg]

The 11th.

Thanks, I'm in Palma for 4 days. Will watch with interest.

[RyeSloan]

I would go further and offer them a rise in line with the EU average and no change in retirement age.


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Is this your favourite policy Oz? [emoji6]

Has the Labour flop of promising billions to people without the first clue on how to actually deliver just passed you by? [emoji2957]

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79109792_2940447459319826_6235066476722651136_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQl3wDFh9mc8mjYG8h0dD0oLmBBnSm11gviglmWhx07 QyFG7-ouL6fXjBygwJiHDezw&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=8d46d062b112a88243e03b36b3baa79e&oe=5E6D7A43




22798

[stoneyburn hibs]

Boris will say ask me again in a couple of years.
Frankly, after Brexit, have we not had enough disruption for a while?

Tea and scones it is then.

[Ozyhibby]

Is this your favourite policy Oz? [emoji6]

Has the Labour flop of promising billions to people without the first clue on how to actually deliver just passed you by? [emoji2957]

None of that is unaffordable. It’s just matching what other European countries are doing.
Labours manifesto promises were massively unaffordable and in some cases for no obvious benefit. Nationalising trains? What percentage of the population uses trains daily? Especially outside the south east? And there is no guarantee that nationalising them works, given how bad things were with the old British Rail. A very expensive policy with minimal appeal.
Everyone does hope to get old though and would welcome a pension waiting on them. And it is affordable so long as you don’t go mental promising all sorts of other stuff as well.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79109792_2940447459319826_6235066476722651136_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQl3wDFh9mc8mjYG8h0dD0oLmBBnSm11gviglmWhx07 QyFG7-ouL6fXjBygwJiHDezw&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=8d46d062b112a88243e03b36b3baa79e&oe=5E6D7A43




22798

I have seen this image before, a few times in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to match up with anything Thatcher ever actually said. It sounds like a Nat-edited version of something she said in her memoirs, which was in fairness, a relatively benign comment.

Is this what we are reduced to? Fake images, memes, whatever?

Surely we can do better than that.

I assume you either posted it, believing it to be true, in which case you seem a bit susceptible to being told stuff if it presses your buttons.

Or you posted it knowing it wasn’t true, which is trolling, isn’t it?

[DaveF]

I have seen this image before, a few times in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to match up with anything Thatcher ever actually said. It sounds like a Nat-edited version of something she said in her memoirs, which was in fairness, a relatively benign comment.

Is this what we are reduced to? Fake images, memes, whatever?

Surely we can do better than that.

I assume you either posted it, believing it to be true, in which case you seem a bit susceptible to being told stuff if it presses your buttons.

Or you posted it knowing it wasn’t true, which is trolling, isn’t it?

Where have you seen it before? Throw me a link please so I can dismiss it as ***** as you say it is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Where have you seen it before? Throw me a link please so I can dismiss it as ***** as you say it is.

I have seen it on Twitter and Facebook but I am not your researcher so maybe you can go and have a look yourself, you seem to know how to work the Internet.

You could also Google the quoted phrase and see if it finds any matches.

You could also Google Thatcher’s quotes on Scottish independence and see what they conjure up.

I grew up in her time in charge and had no time for her but still read the memoirs because you learn from the way that those you disagree with think.

If you do all that, then maybe you can come back and tell me you are dismissing it as *****, as you put it.

[bigwheel]

I have seen this image before, a few times in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to match up with anything Thatcher ever actually said. It sounds like a Nat-edited version of something she said in her memoirs, which was in fairness, a relatively benign comment.

Is this what we are reduced to? Fake images, memes, whatever?

Surely we can do better than that.

I assume you either posted it, believing it to be true, in which case you seem a bit susceptible to being told stuff if it presses your buttons.

Or you posted it knowing it wasn’t true, which is trolling, isn’t it?

She certainly said this....


If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population. The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure. What the Scots (not indeed the English) cannot do, however, is to insist upon their own terms for remaining in the Union, regardless of the views of the others.

[Mibbes Aye]

She certainly said this....


If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population. The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure. What the Scots (not indeed the English) cannot do, however, is to insist upon their own terms for remaining in the Union, regardless of the views of the others.

Exactly, which is nothing like the fake meme and is actually quite benign. I would be astonished if any self-respecting Nat disagreed with what she says there in fact.

And she was right, thus far, the Scots have exercised their right. As recently as 2014 I believe :greengrin

[bigwheel]

Exactly, which is nothing like the fake meme and is actually quite benign. I would be astonished if any self-respecting Nat disagreed with what she says there in fact.

And she was right, thus far, the Scots have exercised their right. As recently as 2014 I believe :greengrin

I don’t think the quote is fake tbh....and surely any democrat would realise (pro or against) the material changes that creates the conditions for a valid second referendum....


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[Mibbes Aye]

I don’t think the quote is fake tbh....and surely any democrat would realise (pro or against) the material changes that creates the conditions for a valid second referendum....


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I’m not sure what the validity of a second referendum has to do with anything unless she actually said those words, as opposed to the words you quoted from the memoirs.

If she did say the words in the meme, then I will accept I am wrong. As I say, it doesn’t match up with anything I can ever recall reading or hearing her say, it simply doesn’t sound like her for a start.

I think the onus is on the person who posted it to back it up with some proper sourcing, otherwise it runs the risk of looking like a cheap Nat meme, designed to troll or misinform the poor Scottish voting public.

[bigwheel]

I’m not sure what the validity of a second referendum has to do with anything unless she actually said those words, as opposed to the words you quoted from the memoirs.

If she did say the words in the meme, then I will accept I am wrong. As I say, it doesn’t match up with anything I can ever recall reading or hearing her say, it simply doesn’t sound like her for a start.

I think the onus is on the person who posted it to back it up with some proper sourcing, otherwise it runs the risk of looking like a cheap Nat meme, designed to troll or misinform the poor Scottish voting public.

I saw it first from james Melville on Twitter..perhaps he didn’t feel the need to quote the source as he was confident in its authenticity?

[allmodcons]

She certainly said this....


If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population. The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure. What the Scots (not indeed the English) cannot do, however, is to insist upon their own terms for remaining in the Union, regardless of the views of the others.


Exactly, which is nothing like the fake meme and is actually quite benign. I would be astonished if any self-respecting Nat disagreed with what she says there in fact.

And she was right, thus far, the Scots have exercised their right. As recently as 2014 I believe :greengrin

I think I could take issue with the final sentence of her quote in that it contradicts her opening statement.

It is because of weight of numbers that the English (her term not mine) can and do insist on their terms for remaining in the Union being foisted upon the other partners. Brexit is a case in point where it is clear that the Union is not, as was promised post 2014, a "partnership of equals".

The case for another Independence referendum has been supported by the Scottish Electorate on 4 separate occasions since 2014. Just how many elections do the SNP have to win before the Scottish people are permitted by the Senior Partner in this Union of Equals to have the right to determine their own future.

We have come along way since 2014 and I would be astonished that any self respecting Unionist can't accept that Brexit is a material change.

You may not support the concept of Scottish Independence and, indeed, may be accepting of the situation we find ourselves in with BJ heading up the UK but what have you got to fear from the voting public having their say in determining their own future?

I'm told it's divisive but politics in general (i.e. - not just constitutional politics) is and always has been divisive. I can't remember a more divisive time than the early years of the Thatcher Government which had nothing to do with the constitution and everything to do with political ideology. I fear that is where headed again with this BJ's "one nation conservatism".

[Pretty Boy]

Is it really relevant what Thatcher did or didn't say sometime in the 80s? She's not exactly in a position of power now and her words were hardly quoting a legal position.

This seems a bit like our 'once in a generation' moment. Taking a quote/non quote with no context several years after it was/wasn't said and attempting to use it as a vindication of our views.

[RyeSloan]

Is it really relevant what Thatcher did or didn't say sometime in the 80s? She's not exactly in a position of power now and her words were hardly quoting a legal position.

This seems a bit like our 'once in a generation' moment. Taking a quote/non quote with no context several years after it was/wasn't said and attempting to use it as a vindication of our views.

PB you have inadvertently shown just why these things should be validated.

You last para is a perfect example as it’s not what you say as it was right there at the heart of the white paper:

“If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost”

It could not be clearer yet still time and time again the concept that this vote was presented as a one off for 20 - 30 years is brushed aside as fake news and deleted down to just Salmond mumbling something once in an interview.

[J-C]

Uk government cannot stop an independent referendum but it can try and stop section 30, this is where it might get tricky.

[Ozyhibby]

Is it really relevant what Thatcher did or didn't say sometime in the 80s? She's not exactly in a position of power now and her words were hardly quoting a legal position.

This seems a bit like our 'once in a generation' moment. Taking a quote/non quote with no context several years after it was/wasn't said and attempting to use it as a vindication of our views.

Correct.[emoji106]
So far our democratic will has been expressed exactly the way we want it. We can leave the union anytime we want to, we just have to vote for it.
There was a time when it was accepted that returning a majority of SNP mp’s would lead to independence (no idea whether the Thatcher quote is true) but it was the SNP who changed this when they introduced the idea of a referendum in order to make themselves more electable. It is now the establish path that a referendum is now the route. Wishing it were not is not really productive.



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[Ozyhibby]

PB you have inadvertently shown just why these things should be validated.

You last para is a perfect example as it’s not what you say as it was right there at the heart of the white paper:

“If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost”

It could not be clearer yet still time and time again the concept that this vote was presented as a one off for 20 - 30 years is brushed aside as fake news and deleted down to just Salmond mumbling something once in an interview.

The once in a generation thing is nonsense as well. How many times was that phrase used in the election just gone by? It’s used in just about every vote there has ever been to try to increase the stakes. Fact is, Thursdays vote wasn’t once in a generation at all. There will be another one in 5 years.
Salmond used the phrase the same way both side used it during this campaign. To try and motivate his potential supporters. Whining about it is as bad as independence voters talking about ‘Freedom’ when we are clearly free to do as we wish.


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[Mon Dieu4]

PB you have inadvertently shown just why these things should be validated.

You last para is a perfect example as it’s not what you say as it was right there at the heart of the white paper:

“If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost”

It could not be clearer yet still time and time again the concept that this vote was presented as a one off for 20 - 30 years is brushed aside as fake news and deleted down to just Salmond mumbling something once in an interview.

Even if Salmond did say that it was once in a generation and it was somehow SNP policy, the fact that 4 times in a row the SNP have overwhelmingly won the Scottish vote with it in their manifesto says it all

It's not like the people who have voted for them are now somehow surprised by the fact they might ask for it

I'm not sure why people are so worried, as far as I'm concerned if you win the vote then you can have a referendum every year if you want as long as you are upfront and honest about it

[marinello59]

PB you have inadvertently shown just why these things should be validated.

You last para is a perfect example as it’s not what you say as it was right there at the heart of the white paper:

“If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost”

It could not be clearer yet still time and time again the concept that this vote was presented as a one off for 20 - 30 years is brushed aside as fake news and deleted down to just Salmond mumbling something once in an interview.

Could you point me towards the heart of the white paper where it says that? Thanks.

Salmond does say this in his preface.

''Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.''

That's a world away from saying it was a once in a generation thing though.

[Hibbyradge]

Salmond used the phrase the same way both side used it during this campaign.




Wasn't it in the manifesto? :dunno:

[RyeSloan]

Could you point me towards the heart of the white paper where it says that? Thanks.

Salmond does say this in his preface.

''Our generation has the opportunity to stop imagining and wondering and start building the better Scotland we all know is possible.''

That's a world away from saying it was a once in a generation thing though.

Para 4 page 3.

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

[SHODAN]

Wonder if Johnson/Cummings might decide that Scotland's too much hassle than it's worth and give us the power for indyref while making no effort to placate us or keep us during the campaign, thereby washing their hands of us and make it not a resigning issue if it's a yes vote.

[marinello59]

Para 4 page 3.

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

Hands up, I missed that when I skimmed through my copy this morning. :greengrin
It still isn't a promise of any kind though is it? It says the opportunity as things stood then would be lost. There is no ruling out of another referendum there at all. And it certainly isn't at the heart of the document.

[weecounty hibby]

I have seen this image before, a few times in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to match up with anything Thatcher ever actually said. It sounds like a Nat-edited version of something she said in her memoirs, which was in fairness, a relatively benign comment.

Is this what we are reduced to? Fake images, memes, whatever?

Surely we can do better than that.

I assume you either posted it, believing it to be true, in which case you seem a bit susceptible to being told stuff if it presses your buttons.

Or you posted it knowing it wasn’t true, which is trolling, isn’t it?
So a throw away line(maybe) in her book should be ignored. But a comment made be Salmond in an interview about a once in a generation chance is being thrown about willy Billy as if it were written into law? Ok then I see how it is going to work between now and indyref2. And not just by the Elindon centric press

[weecounty hibby]

PB you have inadvertently shown just why these things should be validated.

You last para is a perfect example as it’s not what you say as it was right there at the heart of the white paper:

“If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost”

It could not be clearer yet still time and time again the concept that this vote was presented as a one off for 20 - 30 years is brushed aside as fake news and deleted down to just Salmond mumbling something once in an interview.
You can read that however you want to. It was correct at the time as the last time we had a referendum on Independence was a generation before. Nowhere did it say we won't have another one for another generation

[Ozyhibby]

Wonder if Johnson/Cummings might decide that Scotland's too much hassle than it's worth and give us the power for indyref while making no effort to placate us or keep us during the campaign, thereby washing their hands of us and make it not a resigning issue if it's a yes vote.

No chance. It would diminish the UK. For a kick off they would lose 10% of their tax receipts. Although we spend as much as other parts of the uk there are lots of things that are jointly purchased that they would no longer be able to do easily. The military would need to be cut by 10% for example or the money found from another budget. We also make up 1/3 of the land mass. This isn’t a ‘they need us argument’, just that they would not want to be smaller than they already are. Both economies could flourish.


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[CloudSquall]

The once in a generation quote is voided in any cause given the SNP have been given a mandate to run another one.

Unionists might want to start collecting together their arguments against indy because "Fat Eck and Jimmy Krankie said once in a generation" isn't going to cut it.

[Mibbes Aye]

So a throw away line(maybe) in her book should be ignored. But a comment made be Salmond in an interview about a once in a generation chance is being thrown about willy Billy as if it were written into law? Ok then I see how it is going to work between now and indyref2. And not just by the Elindon centric press

Don’t put words in my mouth. I was merely challenging the authenticity of what I considered a fake Nat meme. And so far I don’t think anyone is denying it is a fake Nat meme.

I appreciate all sides put out fake stuff. I didn’t post it in the first place, I merely despair that this is what discourse is reduced to.

[Ozyhibby]

The once in a generation quote is voided in any cause given the SznP have been given a mandate to run another one.

Unionists might want to start collecting together their arguments against indy because "Fat Eck and Jimmy Krankie said once in a generation" isn't going to cut it.

Yip. The once in a generation thing is like a child stamping their feet in a temper tantrum. So long as people keep returning an SNP government which has another referendum in its manifesto then they have a mandate for another vote.
If the Scottish public don’t want another referendum then they will need to start voting for someone else. Until then people need to accept that this is the direction the country is heading.


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[Ozyhibby]

Don’t put words in my mouth. I was merely challenging the authenticity of what I considered a fake Nat meme. And so far I don’t think anyone is denying it is a fake Nat meme.

I appreciate all sides put out fake stuff. I didn’t post it in the first place, I merely despair that this is what discourse is reduced to.

I have no clue whether she said it or not but it is a perfectly acceptable position for her to have had at the time. It would not be an acceptable position now though. A referendum is now the accepted way forward and it was the SNP who first proposed this in order to make themselves more electable. It worked.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I saw it first from james Melville on Twitter..perhaps he didn’t feel the need to quote the source as he was confident in its authenticity?

I don’t know who he is but I do know that a world where people create fake messages like that then go about posting them is a poor, poor place.

FFS, Thatcher provided more than enough ammunition as it was :greengrin

Simply posting made-up images in a spurious attempt to back up an argument is as shallow as it gets. And that would be true of any side.

[weecounty hibby]

I don’t know who he is but I do know that a world where people create fake messages like that then go about posting them is a poor, poor place.

FFS, Thatcher provided more than enough ammunition as it was :greengrin

Simply posting made-up images in a spurious attempt to back up an argument is as shallow as it gets. And that would be true of any side.

How do you feel about the fact that it was shown that 88% of the online releases from the Tories was proven to be at best misleading and at some points down right lies? I would probably include the once in a generation chat. It managed to get the Tories elected and sadly is now seen as accepted election practice.

[degenerated]

I saw it first from james Melville on Twitter..perhaps he didn’t feel the need to quote the source as he was confident in its authenticity?It was supposed to have been in one of her autobiographies. Not sure which one though.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

Rod Stewart facing a bit of a backlash on twitter etc after his congratulations to boris johnson, including his fellow sellick fans :greengrin


https://celtsarehere.com/well-done-boris-sir-rod-comes-under-fire-from-these-celtic-fans/

[marinello59]

Rod Stewart facing a bit of a backlash on twitter etc after his congratulations to boris johnson, including his fellow sellick fans :greengrin


https://celtsarehere.com/well-done-boris-sir-rod-comes-under-fire-from-these-celtic-fans/


I avoid twitter as much as I can. The total intolerance and vitriol shown to anybody with an opposing view on there is more than depressing.

[Mibbes Aye]

It was supposed to have been in one of her autobiographies. Not sure which one though.

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I don’t think it was. But, you know, enough posts like yours and it well become .net FACT and I guess that is true of social media more widely.

When did the world become so lazy as not to take things as right, just because of a few keystrokes by someone with an agenda? Again, this is true of all sides I guess.

[CloudSquall]

I don’t think it was. But, you know, enough posts like yours and it well become .net FACT and I guess that is true of social media more widely.

When did the world become so lazy as not to take things as right, just because of a few keystrokes by someone with an agenda? Again, this is true of all sides I guess.

Taking the Jo Swinson defeat well we see :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

How do you feel about the fact that it was shown that 88% of the online releases from the Tories was proven to be at best misleading and at some points down right lies? I would probably include the once in a generation chat. It managed to get the Tories elected and sadly is now seen as accepted election practice.

I have not seen the 88% figure and therefore don’t know the source. It actually seems too specific a figure and too general a statement and far too subjective. But the fact check people at the Guardian or Channel 4 tend to be robust and show their workings, so I would have more confidence if it came from them. If it was claiming 88% of their stuff on public finances was misleading I can see how that would be possibly capable of being substantiated. If it was general stuff then my instincts would be that it would be difficult to back that up. Doesn’t mean it is untrue, just feels like a figure plucked from the air.

As I said, I don’t think any side is immune from criticism.

[Hibbyradge]

Seriously, if you're annoyed at having to vote in another independence referendum because someone once said it was an opportunity of a generation, simply boycott it and don't vote.

Win win. :thumbsup:

[Mibbes Aye]

Taking the Jo Swinson defeat well we see :greengrin

Well, as a member of another party, not too fussed actually.

I really disliked the borderline and sometimes full-frontal misogyny she faced and that would have been true whether she was SNP, Tory, Plaid Cymru or Brexit.

But from your post it seems you are relatively new to the forum.

If you want to see taking defeat well, I refer you to the post-Indy ref threads in 2014. My word, you will find the epitome of being magnanimous in defeat :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191214/c41c915143de03b71ae4b832713e1bd5.jpg
COSLA president and Labour councillor.


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[Cataplana]

Well, as a member of another party, not too fussed actually.

I really disliked the borderline and sometimes full-frontal misogyny she faced and that would have been true whether she was SNP, Tory, Plaid Cymru or Brexit.

But from your post it seems you are relatively new to the forum.

If you want to see taking defeat well, I refer you to the post-Indy ref threads in 2014. My word, you will find the epitome of being magnanimous in defeat :wink:

It's a shame but once your veneer of competence is exposed as a sham people tend to feel nothing is out of bounds.

For me, she asked for some of it with her #girlyswot nonsense. I think she was starting to believe her own hype and bum herself up as a bit glamourous.

Some people could not resist the "Kick Me" sign on her backside.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a shame but once your veneer of competence is exposed as a sham people tend to feel nothing is out of bounds.

For me, she asked for some of it with her #girlyswot nonsense. I think she was starting to believe her own hype and bum herself up as a bit glamourous.

Some people could not resist the "Kick Me" sign on her backside.

I think the fact that I can’t think of a male equivalence to #girlyswot says it all.

That’s not directed at you, just a comment on the state of things.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a shame but once your veneer of competence is exposed as a sham people tend to feel nothing is out of bounds.



Johnson was exposed as incompetent to such a degree that he wasn't allowed to do interviews. He didn't get that sort of treatment.

Corbyn is a buffoon, but we're supposed to regard him as done sort of principled guru, ffs.





For me, she asked for some of it with her #girlyswot nonsense. I think she was starting to believe her own hype and bum herself up as a bit glamourous.



She asked for it. :hmmm:

Isn't that just victim blaming?

Regarding the rest of your comments, what would be the equivalent criticism for a man?

[Cataplana]

I think the fact that I can’t think of a male equivalence to #girlyswot says it all.

That’s not directed at you, just a comment on the state of things.

Was it not her that used the term to describe herself? I don't know what it means for certain, but it suggests someone who is both studious and feminine.

Perhaps their is no make equivalent because men do not see their appearance as contributing anything to their value.

If she did think her femininity was going to win her votes, she opened herself up to having it pointed out that it wasn't her best strategy.

[marinello59]

Was it not her that used the term to describe herself? I don't know what it means for certain, but it suggests someone who is both studious and feminine.

Perhaps their is no make equivalent because men do not see their appearance as contributing anything to their value.

If she did think her femininity was going to win her votes, she opened herself up to having it pointed out that it wasn't her best strategy.

Boris Johnson used the term first.

[Cataplana]

Johnson was exposed as incompetent to such a degree that he wasn't allowed to do interviews. He didn't get that sort of treatment.

Corbyn is a buffoon, but we're supposed to regard him as done sort of principled guru, ffs.




She asked for it. :hmmm:

Isn't that just victim blaming?

Regarding the rest of your comments, what would be the equivalent criticism for a man?

When you are a victim of your own hubris and vanity, is it not a bit much to blame others for pointing it out?

See my other reply, if a man came out and called himself, say, Gorgeous George, he'd be mocked for it for years.

She's about as sexy as Sexy *******, yet had the nerve to present herself as one of the cool girls.

(If I tell you I identify as female between 14:00 and 15:00 on Saturdays, would my comments be less offensive?)

[Cataplana]

Boris Johnson used the term first.

Then my arguments are just sh*t for brains. I'll get my coat.

[Smartie]

I think the fact that I can’t think of a male equivalence to #girlyswot says it all.

That’s not directed at you, just a comment on the state of things.

Was it not a fairly good-natured, self-deprecating phrase of her own creation?

[Mibbes Aye]

Then my arguments are just sh*t for brains. I'll get my coat.

:agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Boris Johnson used the term first.

Talking about David Cameron I think?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Was it not a fairly good-natured, self-deprecating phrase of her own creation?

It wasn’t her creation.

And the question remains, why is there no obvious male equivalence?

Clue - that could be said about much of our language and vernacular.

[Smartie]

It wasn’t her creation.

And the question remains, why is there no obvious male equivalence?

Clue - that could be said about much of our language and vernacular.

It’s not a phrase I’ve been overly familiar with since about primary 3, and I’m not sure how much thought is given to balancing things out at that age.

[marinello59]

Then my arguments are just sh*t for brains. I'll get my coat.

:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s not a phrase I’ve been overly familiar with since about primary 3, and I’m not sure how much thought is given to balancing things out at that age.

It wasn’t primary 3s who were using it though, was it?

I have only ever heard it used by adults. It isn’t the worst crime in the world, but it is reflective of attitude and the way language is used.

[lapsedhibee]

Talking about David Cameron I think?

Exactly. It was used about a man. That was the point of it. To demean the man it was used about. Possibly in a jolly all-Etonians-together-here sort of a way, possibly not.

[Cataplana]

It wasn’t primary 3s who were using it though, was it?

I have only ever heard it used by adults. It isn’t the worst crime in the world, but it is reflective of attitude and the way language is used.

I have never heard of a female nerd, rspiece, Bawbag, or dickhead.

Although I have been called them many times.

[Hibbyradge]

Exactly. It was used about a man. That was the point of it. To demean the man it was used about. Possibly in a jolly all-Etonians-together-here sort of a way, possibly not.

Yes. There's nothing worse than being a girl.

[Hibbyradge]

I have never heard of a female nerd, rspiece, Bawbag, or dickhead.

Although I have been called them many times.

All those words have been used to describe women. :confused:

[Bangkok Hibby]

I have not seen the 88% figure and therefore don’t know the source. It actually seems too specific a figure and too general a statement and far too subjective. But the fact check people at the Guardian or Channel 4 tend to be robust and show their workings, so I would have more confidence if it came from them. If it was claiming 88% of their stuff on public finances was misleading I can see how that would be possibly capable of being substantiated. If it was general stuff then my instincts would be that it would be difficult to back that up. Doesn’t mean it is untrue, just feels like a figure plucked from the air.

As I said, I don’t think any side is immune from criticism.


Knew I'd seen it too....not making any comment, just for info.



Nearly 90% of Facebook ads paid for by the Conservative Party in the first few days of December contained misleading claims, an investigation has found.First Draft – a non-profit organisation which works on debunking fake news – analysed every ad promoted by the UK’s three main political parties on the social media giant in the first four days of December.It found 88% of the Conservative’s Facebook campaigning pushed figures challenged by Full Fact, the UK’s leading fact-checking organisation.By comparison, First Draft said that it could not find any misleading claims in ads run by Labour on Facebook over the same period.Full Fact plays an independent role in Facebook’s Third Party Fact Checking programme, but this doesn’t currently cover ads or content from political figures or parties.
Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/?ito=cbshare Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[weecounty hibby]

Knew I'd seen it too....not making any comment, just for info.



Nearly 90% of Facebook ads paid for by the Conservative Party in the first few days of December contained misleading claims, an investigation has found.First Draft – a non-profit organisation which works on debunking fake news – analysed every ad promoted by the UK’s three main political parties on the social media giant in the first four days of December.It found 88% of the Conservative’s Facebook campaigning pushed figures challenged by Full Fact, the UK’s leading fact-checking organisation.By comparison, First Draft said that it could not find any misleading claims in ads run by Labour on Facebook over the same period.Full Fact plays an independent role in Facebook’s Third Party Fact Checking programme, but this doesn’t currently cover ads or content from political figures or parties.
Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/?ito=cbshare Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/
Thanks