Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, yeah whatever you think. As a matter of fact I'm finishing work early and heading for a night out with an ex work colleague who is the biggest no voting unionist you could meet. We will discuss politics amongst other things. One thing he won't do us try to talk down to me or be patronising. And I won't to him either. That's why we have remained friends throughout all of this.

I’m in the same boat. Tonight I’m meeting up with my mate who I went to school with who works in Westminster for one of lead brexiteers and cabinet ministers. We disagree totally on independence and I would say he’s agnostic on brexit. We often discuss politics but both of us know when to back down or at least are comfortable when told to stfu. We’ve been best mates for 36 years now and can’t see that changing. Unless the prick annoys me tonight.


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[Moulin Yarns]

While I probably agree with a lot of your post, I think it is a stretch to describe them as succeeding.

The two biggest indicators for most people would be health and education and there has been a lack of progress, indeed failure, in both of these areas.

I didn't say they were succeeding, I said they were more than capable of running the country. A clear difference.

[Sylar]

I really worry for people who use ignore functions online. It makes me wonder how they deal with real life dilemmas where ignore buttons aren't an option. It's arguably one of the greatest contributing factors of the modern age where people simply refuse to tolerate views that challenge their own, or create the potential for compromise. No wonder politics is in such a mess.

For the record, I don't think anybody is a "tosser" on here, even those who are completely opposed to my own views in every conceivable category. There's no point sticking them on ignore, when there's every chance that i'm going to need to face people just like them out there in the real world.

It's rare I agree with you, but I agree with you 100% here.

You tosser :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I didn't say they were succeeding, I said they were more than capable of running the country. A clear difference.

If they are failing on health and education, two basic and fundamental things, then it is hard to argue they are capable of running the country.

[Moulin Yarns]

If they are failing on health and education, two basic and fundamental things, then it is hard to argue they are capable of running the country.

Is their failure any worse than that in the rest of the UK?

Is their failure any worse than the previous governments?

All I am saying is, in reply to Puff, that after independence it is not impossible to believe that an SNP led government would not be capable of doing the day job and running the country.

[Ozyhibby]

If they are failing on health and education, two basic and fundamental things, then it is hard to argue they are capable of running the country.

Maybe just guilty of setting unrealistic targets?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Is their failure any worse than that in the rest of the UK?

Is their failure any worse than the previous governments?

All I am saying is, in reply to Puff, that after independence it is not impossible to believe that an SNP led government would not be capable of doing the day job and running the country.

I am really disappointed by your first sentence. It is like saying Colin Calderwood was better then Terry Butcher.

By any measure, but critically by the measures they set themselves, the SNP are failing on health and education, two of the biggest, most important things for any government, both devolved and both in their remit and power.

That’s not running a country. That is failing a country.

[Mibbes Aye]

Maybe just guilty of setting unrealistic targets?


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If it is targets they set themselves and wrote into law then it suggests they are incompetent, no?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38853700
A quick look at this article from a couple of years back suggests we are doing quite well?
I think we are doing well in both education and health.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38853700
A quick look at this article from a couple of years back suggests we are doing quite well?
I think we are doing well in both education and health.


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Did you read the second sentence of the article you linked to?

This is a government that has seen the law it set, by itself, broken more than 150,000 times.

’Doing well’ :faf:

[Cataplana]

I am really disappointed by your first sentence. It is like saying Colin Calderwood was better then Terry Butcher.

By any measure, but critically by the measures they set themselves, the SNP are failing on health and education, two of the biggest, most important things for any government, both devolved and both in their remit and power.

That’s not running a country. That is failing a country.

Are they failing on every target for health, or just some?

I've been scratching around and trying to find out, but can't find a definitive report.

[Ozyhibby]

Did you read the second sentence of the article you linked to?

This is a government that has seen the law it set, by itself, broken more than 150,000 times.

’Doing well’ :faf:

Doing better than the three other comparable health services then.
Not sure how we are doing compared to Ireland but they are a lot richer than us.


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[Cataplana]

Doing better than the three other comparable health services then.
Not sure how we are doing compared to Ireland but they are a lot richer than us.


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If we aren't doing better than Ireland, these comparisons aren't worth a penny.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are they failing on every target for health, or just some?

I've been scratching around and trying to find out, but can't find a definitive report.

I’m surprised you struggle because it is all in the public domain and the ISD website goes into great detail.

[Cataplana]

I’m surprised you struggle because it is all in the public domain and the ISD website goes into great detail.

Thanks, I'll get reading.

Edit: jeez that's some information there - and I'm not much use at interpreting them.

Answer a simple question, are they failing on all indicators or just some?

[Mibbes Aye]

Doing better than the three other comparable health services then.
Not sure how we are doing compared to Ireland but they are a lot richer than us.


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Putting aside your obsession with Ireland comparisons, saying we are doing better than England is exactly the Calderwood-Butcher comparison I made earlier.

And I will repeat the point I made some time ago, England is two years ahead in terms of cuts to local authority services which exacerbates pressure on hospital services, either in avoiding admission or facilitating discharge.

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks, I'll get reading.

My reply may have come across as snippy. If so, apologies. But yes, the key targets are on the SG website and consistently missed. The more detailed indicators and sub-targets should be on ISD and in fact broken down by health board area and there is considerable variation but nevertheless not pretty reading

[Cataplana]

My reply may have come across as snippy. If so, apologies. But yes, the key targets are on the SG website and consistently missed. The more detailed indicators and sub-targets should be on ISD and in fact broken down by health board area and there is considerable variation but nevertheless not pretty reading

No problem at all. ISD is definitely the place to look, it's just that this narrative of a failing NHS doesn't tally with what I see on an almost daily basis. An overwhelmed NHS maybe, or an NHS that is expected to deliver too much, but one that is pretty much getting the job done all the same.

[Ozyhibby]

Putting aside your obsession with Ireland comparisons, saying we are doing better than England is exactly the Calderwood-Butcher comparison I made earlier.

And I will repeat the point I made some time ago, England is two years ahead in terms of cuts to local authority services which exacerbates pressure on hospital services, either in avoiding admission or facilitating discharge.

If Ireland wasn’t doing so much better than us then I would never mention it. They have the advantage of being independent though.

So in the UK, the Scottish govt is running the best NHS? Is that right?



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[cabbageandribs1875]

Ruth Davidson and Tony Blair met privately to discuss the prospect of Brexit sparking another Scottish independence referendum.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader and the former UK Prime Minister took place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8 October.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader andthe former UK Prime Ministertook place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8October. Picture: PA

Mr Blair's 45-minute conversation with Ms Davidson was dominated by the topic of Scotland's constitutional future, it has emerged.

The ex-Labor leader did not meet the Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard during the trip.

Since quitting as party leader, Ms Davidson has said she is prepared to fight once again for the Union if another independence vote is announced.

Speaking at the Wigtown Book Festival a few days before meeting Mr Blair, she said on the prospect of a second separation poll: "Look, I hope there won’t be a next time.

“I will do what I can to stop that happening, but if it is happening there is absolutely no way that I am going to sit it out.

“This is my country, it’s what I’ve fought for, it’s what I believe in.

“And whether anyone wants me to hold a position or whether they want me to go round, knock doors and hand out leaflets, I’m happy doing both.”

Ms Davidson went on to tell journalist Sarah Smith, who was chairing the event, that she left her leadership job because she was “hopelessly conflicted by Brexit” and also wanted to spend more time being a mother.

A spokesman for Ms Davidson told The Times, "As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, Ruth meets with people from the private, public and charitable sector who have an interest in Scotland's constitutional future."

A spokeswoman for Mr Blair declined to comment.

ta muchly :aok:

and back to Brexit, tomorrows westminster vote to be delayed...https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-saturday-boris-johnson-commons-no-deal-amendment-letwin-a9162106.html?fbclid=IwAR0ub7c1PJ-fKdX8OcOkZ1rtjFSoqH6jd9u8nIfdJhq5tXr1fZtRZOhaKKc

Saturday’s vote to decide Brexit (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brexit) is set to be delayed, after an extraordinary procedural move by MPs who fear the UK could still crash out of the EU without a deal.
An amendment to Boris Johnson (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/BorisJohnson)’s motion – intended to be the ‘meaningful vote’ he craves – would withhold approval until the full legislation to implements the deal is put into law.


But the practical impact of the amendment passing would be to render the vote essentially meaningless, making it likely it would be pulled together.

back in the box goes the bunting

[Mibbes Aye]

No problem at all. ISD is definitely the place to look, it's just that this narrative of a failing NHS doesn't tally with what I see on an almost daily basis. An overwhelmed NHS maybe, or an NHS that is expected to deliver too much, but one that is pretty much getting the job done all the same.

From all the posts I’ve read from you I get the impression you either work in health or alongside health services staff, possibly primary care rather than acute?

For the avoidance of doubt, I know many people working in the NHS and almost without exception, they are hard-working, committed to an ethos of public service and believe in the founding principles of the NHS. It is funny when I read free-market Tories who want to rip it all down. They describe it as a Maoist-like cult and while I vehemently disagree with their views on healthcare I can understand why they see it that way :greengrin. There is a general culture within the NHS of absolute belief in what they do and that they are doing the right thing. That commitment is manifest, especially at frontline level with nurses etc and goes a long way to explaining why we As a public hold the service in such high regard.

The key targets on A&E, treatment times and cancer are routinely missed and by a long chalk. The sub indicators like delayed discharge, unscheduled admissions etc etc also perform poorly but as I said earlier, there is significant variation both between health boards and even within health board areas.

We have a number of health boards who cannot balance their books and therefore are breaking the law. As a consequence the government has to pump in hundreds of millions of additional pounds every year in bail-outs. It is called ‘brokerage’ but that is just a euphemism for mum and dad paying off your credit card bill.

We have widespread allegations of mismanagement, bulling and managerial incompetence. NHS Lothian, Tayside and Highland have never been out the press over the last few years on these counts. We have systemic failures in procurement so that two of the newest and most flagship hospitals in the country are not fit for purpose.

I think the staff are stoic and I agree they are overwhelmed but the management of it all is shambolic and that sits with Scottish Government and the actual boards themselves.

The real elephant in the room is social care. Any solution to pressures on the NHS depends upon community-based services, not just social care itself, but preventative and early intervention services. These have been decimated, in a large part due to austerity, but also due to misguided policies like the council tax freeze, which meant councils had to remove non-essential services. The problem was that those services benefitted the most vulnerable, and as a consequence they are more likely to end up in the health system when it was potentially avoidable.

[Jack]

If they are failing on health and education, two basic and fundamental things, then it is hard to argue they are capable of running the country.

I'm surprised you can bare to live here.

In many studies the NHS in the UK fairs very favourably with healthcare systems around the world. The Scottish NHS is and has been for some time the best performing NHS system in the UK.

"The NHS vs overseas alternative

In 2014, the Commonwealth Fund declared that in comparison with the healthcare systems of 10 other countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the US) the NHS was the most impressive overall. The NHS was rated as the best system in terms of efficiency, effective care, safe care, co-ordinated care, patient-centred care and cost-related problems. It was also ranked second for equity.

We take a closer look at other countries and their health service."

If you want to read more https://hclworkforce.com/blog/how-does-the-nhs-compare-to-the-other-countries-health-systems/

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm surprised you can bare to live here.

In many studies the NHS in the UK fairs very favourably with healthcare systems around the world. The Scottish NHS is and has been for some time the best performing NHS system in the UK.

"The NHS vs overseas alternative

In 2014, the Commonwealth Fund declared that in comparison with the healthcare systems of 10 other countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the US) the NHS was the most impressive overall. The NHS was rated as the best system in terms of efficiency, effective care, safe care, co-ordinated care, patient-centred care and cost-related problems. It was also ranked second for equity.

We take a closer look at other countries and their health service."

If you want to read more https://hclworkforce.com/blog/how-does-the-nhs-compare-to-the-other-countries-health-systems/

Your opening sentence is a bit cheap. I think you posted this before my last post, which makes clear my views on the NHS.

I am also familiar with other health systems. When we need the NHS it is generally fantastic but by the same token we learn a lot from elsewhere.

As somebody who worked in the NHS you will be familiar with how something trendy abroad becomes the ‘new best thing’. In the last couple of years it has been the Buurtzorg model in the Netherlands that everyone is talking up as the panacea for all our ills.

And again, saying Scotland is the best in the U.K. is like saying Colin Calderwood is better than Terry Butcher and Bertie Auld. It misses the point completely.

[Mr Grieves]

I am really disappointed by your first sentence. It is like saying Colin Calderwood was better then Terry Butcher.

By any measure, but critically by the measures they set themselves, the SNP are failing on health and education, two of the biggest, most important things for any government, both devolved and both in their remit and power.

That’s not running a country. That is failing a country.

So which party would you prefer to run the NHS in Scotland then? The alternatives are the one making a bigger **** of the NHS in England or the one making a total **** of the NHS in Wales.

[Hibbyradge]

And again, saying Scotland is the best in the U.K. is like saying Colin Calderwood is better than Terry Butcher and Bertie Auld. It misses the point completely.

Does it miss the point?

I thought the discussion was whether or not the SNP are making a decent fist of managing the NHS and whether that was an indication of their ability to manage an independent Scotland.

If they're making a better job of it than any of the other governments, in similar circumstances, then clearly they are competent to continue doing so.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am really disappointed by your first sentence. It is like saying Colin Calderwood was better then Terry Butcher.

By any measure, but critically by the measures they set themselves, the SNP are failing on health and education, two of the biggest, most important things for any government, both devolved and both in their remit and power.

That’s not running a country. That is failing a country.

And what about the rest of the post you are replying to?

[Moulin Yarns]

No problem at all. ISD is definitely the place to look, it's just that this narrative of a failing NHS doesn't tally with what I see on an almost daily basis. An overwhelmed NHS maybe, or an NHS that is expected to deliver too much, but one that is pretty much getting the job done all the same.

I'm sure we all have personal experience of the NHS where we live.

Me, I'm in tayside, consistently regarded as one of the worst performing in Scotland. I had a strange feeling and got a GP appointment next day, referred for a scan, scan was 5 days later. Not A&E but speedy response.

My niece is in West Yorkshire, felt unwell, was taken to A&E waited on a trolley in a side room for 4 patients for 6 hours before being assessed, with viral meningitis!!

I think that's a good illustration of the NHS performance in Scotland and England.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I am really disappointed by your first sentence. It is like saying Colin Calderwood was better then Terry Butcher.

By any measure, but critically by the measures they set themselves, the SNP are failing on health and education, two of the biggest, most important things for any government, both devolved and both in their remit and power.

That’s not running a country. That is failing a country.

To suggest that the scottish government are failing the country is laughable. Now you're going to point me towards Education and the NHS. Could your party do any better? Yep you keep claiming to not being a Unionist, so I'll guess labour. If the government were that bad then they'd have been voted out It's been 12 years, must be doing something right.

[marinello59]

To suggest that the scottish government are failing the country is laughable. Now you're going to point me towards Education and the NHS. Could your party do any better? Yep you keep claiming to not being a Unionist, so I'll guess labour. If the government were that bad then they'd have been voted out It's been 12 years, must be doing something right.

They support Independence. That means they are totally immune from criticism in some people’s eyes. The rather cringeworthy ‘getting on with the day job’ response to them actually doing the job they were elected to do sums it up. Of course they are getting on with the day job, it’s the very least they should be doing. Nobody else can do it until they get in to power. They do get a lot right but they get a lot wrong as well. I’d mark their report card could do better.

[Ozyhibby]

They support Independence. That means they are totally immune from criticism in some people’s eyes. The rather cringeworthy ‘getting on with the day job’ response to them actually doing the job they were elected to do sums it up. Of course they are getting on with the day job, it’s the very least they should be doing. Nobody else can do it until they get in to power. They do get a lot right but they get a lot wrong as well. I’d mark their report card could do better.

Richard Leonard doesn’t strike me as a guy who would do the job any better and the evidence from Wales suggests the Labour Party haven’t got what it takes.


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[DaveF]

They support Independence. That means they are totally immune from criticism in some people’s eyes. The rather cringeworthy ‘getting on with the day job’ response to them actually doing the job they were elected to do sums it up. Of course they are getting on with the day job, it’s the very least they should be doing. Nobody else can do it until they get in to power. They do get a lot right but they get a lot wrong as well. I’d mark their report card could do better.

Has any government in living memory had a report card which is better than that?

Genuine question btw.

[RyeSloan]

I'm surprised you can bare to live here.

In many studies the NHS in the UK fairs very favourably with healthcare systems around the world. The Scottish NHS is and has been for some time the best performing NHS system in the UK.

"The NHS vs overseas alternative

In 2014, the Commonwealth Fund declared that in comparison with the healthcare systems of 10 other countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the US) the NHS was the most impressive overall. The NHS was rated as the best system in terms of efficiency, effective care, safe care, co-ordinated care, patient-centred care and cost-related problems. It was also ranked second for equity.

We take a closer look at other countries and their health service."

If you want to read more https://hclworkforce.com/blog/how-does-the-nhs-compare-to-the-other-countries-health-systems/

That’s the survey that ranks the NHS (as a whole I assume not England / Scotland) as ranked overall first 1 out of the 11 it compares against.

EXCEPT when it comes to healthcare outcomes where it is 10/11.

So basically it’s good or the best at most elements apart from the key one, keeping people well and alive!

[stoneyburn hibs]

They support Independence. That means they are totally immune from criticism in some people’s eyes. The rather cringeworthy ‘getting on with the day job’ response to them actually doing the job they were elected to do sums it up. Of course they are getting on with the day job, it’s the very least they should be doing. Nobody else can do it until they get in to power. They do get a lot right but they get a lot wrong as well. I’d mark their report card could do better.

Doesn't being immune from criticism count for any party and it's supporters? Surely the fact that no other party can get into power in Scotland tells it's own story?
Any government in the world could be marked down as could do better.

[marinello59]

Has any government in living memory had a report card which is better than that?

Genuine question btw.

I would say that every single Scottish Government whether it was Lab/Lib Dem, SNP/Tory or SNP so far has done better than Sturgeon’s. In saying that I love the tone Sturgeon sets and at the moment that is probably as important as anything else.

[Ozyhibby]

I would say that every single Scottish Government whether it was Lab/Lib Dem, SNP/Tory or SNP so far has done better than Sturgeon’s. In saying that I love the tone Sturgeon sets and at the moment that is probably as important as anything else.

Having government closer to people definitely helps. Scottish Parliament as been a massive success.


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[Hibbyradge]

I would say that every single Scottish Government whether it was Lab/Lib Dem, SNP/Tory or SNP so far has done better than Sturgeon’s. In saying that I love the tone Sturgeon sets and at the moment that is probably as important as anything else.

That's an interesting insight.

I've been away for 4 years come December and although I follow Scottish politics as much as I can, I had no idea that the current government's performance was anything other than well thought of.

I'll pay more attention in future.

[marinello59]

Having government closer to people definitely helps. Scottish Parliament as been a massive success.


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I don’t disagree with that.

[marinello59]

That's an interesting insight.

I've been away for 4 years come December and although I follow Scottish politics as much as I can, I had no idea that the current government's performance was anything other than well thought of.

I'll pay more attention in future.

:rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

:rolleyes:

What's that supposed to mean? :hilarious

Obviously I've seen folk criticising the SNP government but I just assumed that it was just people politicking as usual.

There's politics down here too, you know!

[Mibbes Aye]

So which party would you prefer to run the NHS in Scotland then? The alternatives are the one making a bigger **** of the NHS in England or the one making a total **** of the NHS in Wales.

I have posted a few times before on here about the NHS. It is stupid to make comparisons to England and Wales because it is just acknowledging things are desperate, but slightly less desperate than down there. And again, as I have pointed out, cuts to local authorities are two years ahead down there, which piles the pressure on the NHS to a degree which was already unsustainable before the cuts.

This isn’t party political, this is bordering on existential. I have said before that I think it needs depoliticised and handed over to a Royal Commission or the like.

[Mibbes Aye]

Does it miss the point?

I thought the discussion was whether or not the SNP are making a decent fist of managing the NHS and whether that was an indication of their ability to manage an independent Scotland.

If they're making a better job of it than any of the other governments, in similar circumstances, then clearly they are competent to continue doing so.

Clearly not!

If Colin Calderwood has a better record than Terry Butcher then he is competent?

The SNP are doing a less worse job at the moment than England or Wales by most accepted metrics, but as I have explained ad infinitum they are failing.

Failing to meet their key targets. Failing to meet legally-binding targets. Failing to achieve the standards they set for themselves.

That is a long way from making a decent fist of managing the NHS.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Clearly not!

If Colin Calderwood has a better record than Terry Butcher then he is competent?

The SNP are doing a less worse job at the moment than England or Wales by most accepted metrics, but as I have explained ad infinitum they are failing.

Failing to meet their key targets. Failing to meet legally-binding targets. Failing to achieve the standards they set for themselves.

That is a long way from making a decent fist of managing the NHS.

But I'm not a Unionist.

[Mibbes Aye]

And what about the rest of the post you are replying to?

I am surprised you ask. All the metrics say that despite a good run with their hands on the levers of power, the basics like health and education are not being improved upon. Unless you ant Tom demonstrate otherwise.

And out of curiosity, you claim to be a Green member. Were you happy with their independence manifesto that promised riches galore based on oil wealth?

[Mibbes Aye]

To suggest that the scottish government are failing the country is laughable. Now you're going to point me towards Education and the NHS. Could your party do any better? Yep you keep claiming to not being a Unionist, so I'll guess labour. If the government were that bad then they'd have been voted out It's been 12 years, must be doing something right.

To be honest, the fallout from 2008 meant that anybody was going to struggle. Gordon Brown did the right thing, ensured the ATMs kept paying out and direct debits didn’t bounce and life went on but the cost of that will be borne for years yet.

Nevertheless, I think whoever is in government has to take responsibility for what happens under their watch. And health is failing. Education is failing. The SNP has initiated a number of policies, particularly in relation to the NHS and it has been a bit of an omnishambles.

[weecounty hibby]

I would say that every single Scottish Government whether it was Lab/Lib Dem, SNP/Tory or SNP so far has done better than Sturgeon’s. In saying that I love the tone Sturgeon sets and at the moment that is probably as important as anything else.

Sorry just to be clear on this. You think that every Scottish government has been better than the one we have now?

[Mibbes Aye]

Has any government in living memory had a report card which is better than that?

Genuine question btw.

I would say that the first Holyrood administration and maybe the Blair second adminsistration definitely did (the second Blair administration would have to be domestic only though, because we had Iraq and I think not every one on here liked that).

I would also argue the case for Wilson in the 1960s and indeed his shortened spell in the 1970s.

Case to be made for Clement Attlee too.

And the Campbell-Bannerman/Asquith Liberal government in the first decade of the twentieth century and the run up to WW1.

That probably stretches living memory to the limit but that is only in the U.K. and I have probably missed something.

[weecounty hibby]

I am surprised you ask. All the metrics say that despite a good run with their hands on the levers of power, the basics like health and education are not being improved upon. Unless you ant Tom demonstrate otherwise.

And out qof curiosity, you claim to be a Green member. Were you happy with their independence manifesto that promised riches galore based on oil wealth?
They have their hands on some of the levers for some of the powers. Government departments are interlinked and it is not easy to manage some departments while having your hands tied behind your back on others

[Mibbes Aye]

What's that supposed to mean? :hilarious

Obviously I've seen folk criticising the SNP government but I just assumed that it was just people politicking as usual.

There's politics down here too, you know!

I am political D but I rarely, if ever, instigate discussions on threads like these. I usually just respond when I know something is inaccurate or misleading.

I would be happy to never have to criticise the SNP government at Holyrood but if folk post stuff that is wrong then it’s hard not to challenge it. If that is politicking then mea culpa.

[stoneyburn hibs]

If GB is your man then fair do's. Our Scottish government may not have reached the targets. It's tough with one hand tied.

[Mibbes Aye]

They have their hands on some of the levers for some of the powers. Government departments are interlinked and it is not easy to manage some departments while having your hands tied behind your back on others

Out of interest, how do you think their hands are tied in relation to health and education policy?

[The Modfather]

To be honest, the fallout from 2008 meant that anybody was going to struggle. Gordon Brown did the right thing, ensured the ATMs kept paying out and direct debits didn’t bounce and life went on but the cost of that will be borne for years yet.

Nevertheless, I think whoever is in government has to take responsibility for what happens under their watch. And health is failing. Education is failing. The SNP has initiated a number of policies, particularly in relation to the NHS and it has been a bit of an omnishambles.

The SNP might be failing, rightly or wrongly they can at least point to one hand being tied behind their back not having full autonomy from Westminster. Whether that justifies the job they have done, who knows. What is the answer from Westminster about their failings and what will be done differently going forward?

The SNP should be challenged, as should independence. However those same questions and challenges should also be aimed at Westminster. What is Westminster doing about the failings in the here and now? What will they do differently going forward to address the failings that is a better bet than an independent Scotland addressing the same failings?

[Mibbes Aye]

The SNP might be failing, rightly or wrongly they can at least point to one hand being tied behind their back not having full autonomy from Westminster. Whether that justifies the job they have done, who knows. What is the answer from Westminster about their failings and what will be done differently going forward?

The SNP should be challenged, as should independence. However those same questions and challenges should also be aimed at Westminster. What is Westminster doing about the failings in the here and now? What will they do differently going forward to address the failings that is a better bet than an independent Scotland addressing the same failings?

This Westminster/Scotland thing is a false narrative isn’t it?

Back at the end of the nineties, no one seemed too perturbed about setting up a Scottish Parliament, bringing in child and pension tax credits, a minimum wage, SureStart centres around the U.K. and equalities legislation.

Westminster has dozens of SNP MPs there. They used to make themselves prominent through stunts for the TV cameras. Not sure quite what they have been doing since. But the expenses will be good, I’m sure.

[weecounty hibby]

Out of interest, how do you think their hands are tied in relation to health and education policy?
I totally accept that we should be doing better on both, no arguments unless folk want to get really pedantic. But Scotland can only really get to a place where we control all aspects of government when we are not tied to waiting on whatever Westminster decides we have to spend. Also having to divert funds into things like aiding those who have been disadvantaged because of the bedroom tax doesn't help

[weecounty hibby]

This Westminster/Scotland thing is a false narrative isn’t it?

Back at the end of the nineties, no one seemed too perturbed about setting up a Scottish Parliament, bringing in child and pension tax credits, a minimum wage, SureStart centres around the U.K. and equalities legislation.

Westminster has dozens of SNP MPs there. They used to make themselves prominent through stunts for the TV cameras. Not sure quite what they have been doing since. But the expenses will be good, I’m sure.

I am totally lost as to your point here. SNP are only at Westminster for the expenses?

[Mibbes Aye]

I totally accept that we should be doing better on both, no arguments unless folk want to get really pedantic. But Scotland can only really get to a place where we control all aspects of government when we are not tied to waiting on whatever Westminster decides we have to spend. Also having to divert funds into things like aiding those who have been disadvantaged because of the bedroom tax doesn't help

Thats a fair response.

I would throw in that forcing councils to impose a council tax freeze that was essentially a middle-class bribe and affected the poor and marginalised disproportionately didn’t help much either.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I totally accept that we should be doing better on both, no arguments unless folk want to get really pedantic. But Scotland can only really get to a place where we control all aspects of government when we are not tied to waiting on whatever Westminster decides we have to spend. Also having to divert funds into things like aiding those who have been disadvantaged because of the bedroom tax doesn't help

He knew you would have said that, we all know the symptom and the cause.
Sorry for hijacking mate.

[The Modfather]

This Westminster/Scotland thing is a false narrative isn’t it?

Back at the end of the nineties, no one seemed too perturbed about setting up a Scottish Parliament, bringing in child and pension tax credits, a minimum wage, SureStart centres around the U.K. and equalities legislation.

Westminster has dozens of SNP MPs there. They used to make themselves prominent through stunts for the TV cameras. Not sure quite what they have been doing since. But the expenses will be good, I’m sure.

Your reply doesn’t address any of my questions. Instead something about expenses and tv stunts!

[Moulin Yarns]

I am surprised you ask. All the metrics say that despite a good run with their hands on the levers of power, the basics like health and education are not being improved upon. Unless you ant Tom demonstrate otherwise.

And out of curiosity, you claim to be a Green member. Were you happy with their independence manifesto that promised riches galore based on oil wealth?

No

[Mibbes Aye]

I am totally lost as to your point here. SNP are only at Westminster for the expenses?

No. The point is that Nat-leaning posters talk up Westminster vs Scotland, while not acknowledging there are a ton of SNP MPs at Westminster, and in a parliament as hung as this, they have the power to shape decisions.

But that doesn’t suit the narrative of “big, bad Westminster, doing the Scots down”.

[Mibbes Aye]

No

So if they stick by that, can you really stick by them?

A different flag for the sake of future generations and the future of our planet?

[weecounty hibby]

No. The point is that Nat-leaning posters talk up Westminster vs Scotland, while not acknowledging there are a ton of SNP MPs at Westminster, and in a parliament as hung as this, they have the power to shape decisions.

But that doesn’t suit the narrative of “big, bad Westminster, doing the Scots down”.

They have less power than the 11 DUP MPs and that is solely down to the fact that there was s no other party willing to work with them. Both Labour and the Tories won't touch them as that would be seen to help support independence. The SNP has continually offered to help defeat the Tories but Labour ain't interested

[Mibbes Aye]

Your reply doesn’t address any of my questions. Instead something about expenses and tv stunts!

It sort of did. You talk about Westminster. My point was there isn’t such a thing. There are very few people on here who would disagree with the socially redistributatve policies of the late nineties, early noughties. And very few who would agree with the economic policiies of the early 1980s or 2010 onwards.

All ‘Westminster’, all very different.

[Mibbes Aye]

They have less power than the 11 DUP MPs and that is solely down to the fact that there was s no other party willing to work with them. Both Labour and the Tories won't touch them as that would be seen to help support independence. The SNP has continually offered to help defeat the Tories but Labour ain't interested

I seem to recall that Yvette Cooper and Ken Clarke had a bill that would enforce a vote on any Brexit deal. It failed because the SNP whipped the entire crew to abstain.

[weecounty hibby]

Thats a fair response.

I would throw in that forcing councils to impose a council tax freeze that was essentially a middle-class bribe and affected the poor and marginalised disproportionately didn’t help much either.
The council tax is a tough one. It benefited all but probably did benefit the better off more. To be honest it's not a big deal for me and can see both arguments, but to suggest that the less well off didn't benefit is just wrong. What about free travel, prescriptions, tuition fees etc. Surely a good thing and just think what else we could do if we had full fiscal control through independence. C'mon, you know you want to!! By the way I'm on a train home from Edinburgh to Allow and am very pissed! Tried my best to convert my no voting mate again tonight without success so come on help me out here and join the cause!!😁

[Mibbes Aye]

The council tax is a tough one. It benefited all but probably did benefit the better off more. To be honest it's not a big deal for me and can see both arguments, but to suggest that the less well off didn't benefit is just wrong. What about free travel, prescriptions, tuition fees etc. Surely a good thing and just think what else we could do if we had full fiscal control through independence. C'mon, you know you want to!! By the way I'm on a train home from Edinburgh to Allow and am very pissed! Tried my best to convert my no voting mate again tonight without success so come on help me out here and join the cause!!😁
:greengrin

Dont give up! Safe journey.

[Moulin Yarns]

So if they stick by that, can you really stick by them?

A different flag for the sake of future generations and the future of our planet?

Eh? I have stated elsewhere that I have difficulty with some policies and agree with others. The Scottish Green Party has forced the snp to introduce some good environmental policies in return for support. Do you think that the snp would have stopped unconventional gas extraction without the Greens?

I have just replied to an ex snp Councillor who is now a green candidate about her promotion of an advert for a new volvo ev cost over £50k as if it is the first vehicle to promise a range of close to 300 miles when there are at least 2 other that do the same for less than £35k.

Once snp, always snp, and they need criticised when warranted, but also praised when things go well.

[The Modfather]

It sort of did. You talk about Westminster. My point was there isn’t such a thing. There are very few people on here who would disagree with the socially redistributatve policies of the late nineties, early noughties. And very few who would agree with the economic policiies of the early 1980s or 2010 onwards.

All ‘Westminster’, all very different.

So to take it back a step. What is your point about the Scottish Governments failure on things like education and the NHS in the context of independence? Given the hands all home nations are currently being dealt, we’re all failing in these areas. If we keep the status quo (remaining part of the union) what is going to be done differently by each home nation to improve these areas? Independence or not, plodding along as we are isn’t a palatable outcome.

[Moulin Yarns]

I seem to recall that Yvette Cooper and Ken Clarke had a bill that would enforce a vote on any Brexit deal. It failed because the SNP whipped the entire crew to abstain.

Funny, I don't remember any left leaning politicians supporting the snp motion. It works both ways.

[Mibbes Aye]

Funny, I don't remember any left leaning politicians supporting the snp motion. It works both ways.

I don’t think they were whipped against it, were they?

[Hibrandenburg]

To be honest, the fallout from 2008 meant that anybody was going to struggle. Gordon Brown did the right thing, ensured the ATMs kept paying out and direct debits didn’t bounce and life went on but the cost of that will be borne for years yet.

Nevertheless, I think whoever is in government has to take responsibility for what happens under their watch. And health is failing. Education is failing. The SNP has initiated a number of policies, particularly in relation to the NHS and it has been a bit of an omnishambles.

You can only pish with the cock you have. The SNP can only work with the budget they are given. The whole Scottish budget is fully dependent on how the UK is performing as a whole, in other words were dependent. As long as we're dependent there's only so much a Scottish government can achieve.

[Mibbes Aye]

So to take it back a step. What is your point about the Scottish Governments failure on things like education and the NHS in the context of independence? Given the hands all home nations are currently being dealt, we’re all failing in these areas. If we keep the status quo (remaining part of the union) what is going to be done differently by each home nation to improve these areas? Independence or not, plodding along as we are isn’t a palatable outcome.

That surely suggests that independence is just a roll of the dice. Why would it generate better outcomes? Health and education are very distinctly devolved, were different before devolution in fact. What benefit would independence bring to these two crucial areas?

[The Modfather]

That surely suggests that independence is just a roll of the dice. Why would it generate better outcomes? Health and education are very distinctly devolved, were different before devolution in fact. What benefit would independence bring to these two crucial areas?

Independence is a roll of the dice, but no more so than the roll of the dice of remaining in a post Brexit union.

[Mibbes Aye]

You can only pish with the cock you have. The SNP can only work with the budget they are given. The whole Scottish budget is fully dependent on how the UK is performing as a whole, in other words were dependent. As long as we're dependent there's only so much a Scottish government can achieve.

I see. Or rather, I think that is making excuses on a grand scale. And again, with the use of words like ‘dependent’, trying to set the narrative of grievance and resentment. Do you really think people can’t see that for what it is?

Are there hundreds of millions of pounds more, being promised post-independence?

On top of all the set-up costs of infrastructure for a new nation state?

I must have missed that announcement.

Or maybe it is going to be okay because of the oil money -oh, hold on, the price of a barrel went through the floor didn’t it?

But maybe if Saudi Arabia and Iran go to war then the price will rise. Millions dead but hey, Scotland is better off.

Oh, hold on, the UN said if we didn’t stop using fossil fuels in the next couple of decades then the planet is totally ****ed.

It’s a dilemma isn’t it?

But hey-ho, a twirly flag of a different colour is a fair price to pay.

[Mibbes Aye]

Independence is a roll of the dice, but no more so than the roll of the dice of remaining in a post Brexit union.

I think on that we may agree.

Someone, maybe ryesloan, made an interesting post on this thread or another recently about the impact of Brexit and there have been a couple of non-partisan articles in certain elements of the press.

I am staunch Remain and I know and want us to keep all the benefits of being part of the EU. I would have to go back to the post or the articles but intriguingly there were a couple of potential benefits from leaving. They didn’t outweigh the positives of staying IMO but they shedded a little more light on the argument for Leave, rather than the simple reductionism that it is merely Little Englanders with a xenophobic and racist mindset.

[CloudSquall]

Has anyone supporting independence here actually made any reference to a flag?

It's getting ****ing tiresome reading unionists go on about people supporting Independence solely for "twirly flags" when the only people actually referencing flags are unionists themselves.

[StevieC]

I have just replied to an ex snp Councillor who is now a green candidate.

EM?
Shouldn’t be anywhere near a council post IMO .. although the same could be said of half the current Tory councillors!
The dynamics have changed substantially though, and I doubt it will be a Tory led council for much longer..

[Mibbes Aye]

Has anyone supporting independence here actually made any reference to a flag?

It's getting ****ing tiresome reading unionists go on about people supporting Independence solely for "twirly flags" when the only people actually referencing flags are unionists themselves.

Yeah, just to get your facts right - I think I am the only one who mentions twirly flags, in fact I would put money on me being the only one. And as I have stated in a number of posts, I am not a unionist and definitely not a nationalist.

i don’t think Holyrood, an independent Holyrood, or Westminster offer the best system of government for me, my children or my community and I have put out at length what I think is a better alternative.

But you know, like you say, if it is “****ing tiresome”, you could always just read the posts properly, instead of making lazy assumptions. Or make passive aggressive posts, instead of actually quoting my post directly.......

[Hibbyradge]

Yeah, just to get your facts right - I think I am the only one who mentions twirly flags, in fact I would put money on me being the only one. And as I have stated in a number of posts, I am not a unionist and definitely not a nationalist.

i don’t think Holyrood, an independent Holyrood, or Westminster offer the best system of government for me, my children or my community and I have put out at length what I think is a better alternative.

But you know, like you say, if it is “****ing tiresome”, you could always just read the posts properly, instead of making lazy assumptions. Or make passive aggressive posts, instead of actually quoting my post directly.......

Why are you referring to twirly flags on here at all ?

[Mibbes Aye]

Why are you referring to twirly flags on here at all ?

Not sure what your point is?

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure what your point is?

It's a question, not a point.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a question, not a point.

Every question should have a point, surely but ok, my bad.

I have used the phrase a few times on this thread and maybe others.

It is a metaphor for nationalism or nationalistic beliefs.

It doesn’t matter what is pragmatic, practical or in the best interests of one’s communities - rather it is a zealous belief that by having some sense of legitimate nationhood according to ones dogma, then Scotland is free from ills and woes that are visited upon it by the perfidious Albion and the evil Westminster.

Symbolically, that can be represented by changing the flags. And flags twirl in the wind.

I appreciate that ‘twirly flags’ might sound a bit patronising to some. I would also say that there are far bigger things in the world than whether Scotland is part of the U.K. or not, and failing to acknowledge that is quite patronising for me. Brexit is more important. Climate change is more important still. It’s funny how few posts there are on here about people taking responsibility for their carbon footprint or whatever, but no shortage slagging off Jo Swinson for her accent :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Every question should have a point, surely but ok, my bad.

I have used the phrase a few times on this thread and maybe others.

It is a metaphor for nationalism or nationalistic beliefs.

It doesn’t matter what is pragmatic, practical or in the best interests of one’s communities - rather it is a zealous belief that by having some sense of legitimate nationhood according to ones dogma, then Scotland is free from ills and woes that are visited upon it by the perfidious Albion and the evil Westminster.

Symbolically, that can be represented by changing the flags. And flags twirl in the wind.

I appreciate that ‘twirly flags’ might sound a bit patronising to some. I would also say that there are far bigger things in the world than whether Scotland is part of the U.K. or not, and failing to acknowledge that is quite patronising for me. Brexit is more important. Climate change is more important still. It’s funny how few posts there are on here about people taking responsibility for their carbon footprint or whatever, but no shortage slagging off Jo Swinson for her accent :greengrin

That's a long answer to a very short question.

"All questions should have a point". The point of a question is to glean information.

What are the names of the pandas in Edinburgh zoo?

[Mibbes Aye]

That's a long answer to a very short question.

"All questions should have a point". The point of a question is to glean information.

What are the names of the pandas in Edinburgh zoo?

You've lost me. You asked about ‘twirly flags’. I think I made a decent stab at explaining why I used the term.

You haven’t said whether you like or dislike it, or even why you asked?

[Hibbyradge]

You've lost me. You asked about ‘twirly flags’. I think I made a decent stab at explaining why I used the term.

You haven’t said whether you like or dislike it, or even why you asked?

Relax. I'm still taking issue with your daft assertion that every question should have a point.

Twirly flags is a cheap put down as you probably know. You're much better than that.

Bedtime. Chat tomorrow.

[Mibbes Aye]

Relax. I'm still taking issue with your daft assertion that every question should have a point.

Twirly flags is a cheap put down as you probably know. You're much better than that.

Bedtime. Chat tomorrow.

No worries :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

This Westminster/Scotland thing is a false narrative isn’t it?

Back at the end of the nineties, no one seemed too perturbed about setting up a Scottish Parliament, bringing in child and pension tax credits, a minimum wage, SureStart centres around the U.K. and equalities legislation.

Westminster has dozens of SNP MPs there. They used to make themselves prominent through stunts for the TV cameras. Not sure quite what they have been doing since. But the expenses will be good, I’m sure.

That’s twice this week you have accused the SNP members of enjoying the expense system. Is there any evidence of this? You say you only want to point out when you see something wrong? If SNP mp’s are abusing the expenses system the should be thrown out the party quick sharp. Be good to know who is at it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Sorry just to be clear on this. You think that every Scottish government has been better than the one we have now?

Yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

EM?
Shouldn’t be anywhere near a council post IMO .. although the same could be said of half the current Tory councillors!
The dynamics have changed substantially though, and I doubt it will be a Tory led council for much longer..

The very person. I don't know them but they are quite nasty towards the snp, I think it is personal.

[ronaldo7]

The last few pages have been a hoot.

Anyone looking into Westminster at the moment and thinking we can't do better than this, is not for shifting.

Twirly flags, and dirty nats with their expenses though.

Imagine that we didn't have to mitigate the policies of Westminster with £100 million a year.

Imagine that another parliament couldn't just come along and step into our own areas of devolved government, and make changes to the powers we are supposed to have.

We either grow up and take responsibility for, "ALL" policy areas, or we continue to have some in our country who are happy to take the hand outs and stay dependent.

Cap in hand

[Fife-Hibee]

Yes.

Considering UK wide circumstances and the determination of Westminster to drag Scotland down to it's level. What would you say the current Government in Scotland could do differently?

[Hibrandenburg]

I see. Or rather, I think that is making excuses on a grand scale. And again, with the use of words like ‘dependent’, trying to set the narrative of grievance and resentment. Do you really think people can’t see that for what it is?

Are there hundreds of millions of pounds more, being promised post-independence?

On top of all the set-up costs of infrastructure for a new nation state?

I must have missed that announcement.

Or maybe it is going to be okay because of the oil money -oh, hold on, the price of a barrel went through the floor didn’t it?

But maybe if Saudi Arabia and Iran go to war then the price will rise. Millions dead but hey, Scotland is better off.

Oh, hold on, the UN said if we didn’t stop using fossil fuels in the next couple of decades then the planet is totally ****ed.

It’s a dilemma isn’t it?

But hey-ho, a twirly flag of a different colour is a fair price to pay.

You're losing it MA. No grievance in my post just fact. The Scottish government are dependent on the budget they get from Westminster, you can use the word reliant if it makes you feel better but it changes nothing.

No twirly flags in my posts.

[Hibrandenburg]

Has anyone supporting independence here actually made any reference to a flag?

It's getting ****ing tiresome reading unionists go on about people supporting Independence solely for "twirly flags" when the only people actually referencing flags are unionists themselves.

Yep, it's a lot like the Tories demanding the SNP get on with the day job but they themselves are the ones constantly talking about Brexit.

[marinello59]

Considering UK wide circumstances and the determination of Westminster to drag Scotland down to it's level. What would you say the current Government in Scotland could do differently?

The same as every other Scottish Government has had to do regardless of which party was in control, manage the resources we do have as efficiently as possible. I think devolution has in the main been a resounding success, every Government has done a decent job of managing with the powers they have at their disposal. Decisions made by Sturgeon's Government have, in my opinion, lead to us performing less well than we should have done in several areas with the highlighted examples of health and education being prime examples. Recent personal experience has reinforced my view that the NHS in Scotland is being run more efficiently than it is in England but that's not really the point, we could be doing even better.
It is possible to support Independence and not be blindly loyal to the SNP. When the Westminster election comes round they will be getting my vote as it will clearly be a vote for a second referendum and Independence. They'll have to try a lot harder to get my Holyrood vote again though. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

The same as every other Scottish Government has had to do regardless of which party was in control, manage the resources we do have as efficiently as possible. I think devolution has in the main been a resounding success, every Government has done a decent job of managing with the powers they have at their disposal. Decisions made by Sturgeon's Government have, in my opinion, lead to us performing less well than we should have done in several areas with the highlighted examples of health and education being prime examples. Recent personal experience has reinforced my view that the NHS in Scotland is being run more efficiently than it is in England but that's not really the point, we could be doing even better.
It is possible to support Independence and not be blindly loyal to the SNP. When the Westminster election comes round they will be getting my vote as it will clearly be a vote for a second referendum and Independence. They'll have to try a lot harder to get my Holyrood vote again though. :greengrin

Can you give an example of a decision that has had a detrimental impact on services in Scotland and how it could have been done differently?

[ronaldo7]

The same as every other Scottish Government has had to do regardless of which party was in control, manage the resources we do have as efficiently as possible. I think devolution has in the main been a resounding success, every Government has done a decent job of managing with the powers they have at their disposal. Decisions made by Sturgeon's Government have, in my opinion, lead to us performing less well than we should have done in several areas with the highlighted examples of health and education being prime examples. Recent personal experience has reinforced my view that the NHS in Scotland is being run more efficiently than it is in England but that's not really the point, we could be doing even better.
It is possible to support Independence and not be blindly loyal to the SNP. When the Westminster election comes round they will be getting my vote as it will clearly be a vote for a second referendum and Independence. They'll have to try a lot harder to get my Holyrood vote again though. :greengrin

If only we didn't have to mitigate bad policy making from Westminster to the tune of millions.

[Fife-Hibee]

If only we didn't have to mitigate bad policy making from Westminster to the tune of millions.

Millions? More like billions. The millions are for policies that the general public are privy to.

[marinello59]

Can you give an example of a decision that has had a detrimental impact on services in Scotland and how it could have been done differently?

I was making a general point about how I perceive the performance of Sturgeon's Government. Feel free to use your own time to go back and read their various policy announcements then match them up to how things worked out. Id wager that most SNP party members could point to a couple of things that could have been done better.
We may differ in how we rate their overall performance but surely we can agree they aren't perfect?

[marinello59]

If only we didn't have to mitigate bad policy making from Westminster to the tune of millions.

That's a valid point and I agree it hasn't helped* but it doesn't mean they couldn't have done better.

* Perhaps a slight understatement there. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

I was making a general point about how I perceive the performance of Sturgeon's Government. Feel free to use your own time to go back and read their various policy announcements then match them up to how things worked out. Id wager that most SNP party members could point to a couple of things that could have been done better.
We may differ in how we rate their overall performance but surely we can agree they aren't perfect?

I was only asking for an example. If you don't wish to provide any, that's fine.

[marinello59]

I was only asking for an example. If you don't wish to provide any, that's fine.

We can't even agree that they ain't perfect? I'm disappointed. :greengrin

[The Modfather]

Every question should have a point, surely but ok, my bad.

I have used the phrase a few times on this thread and maybe others.

It is a metaphor for nationalism or nationalistic beliefs.

It doesn’t matter what is pragmatic, practical or in the best interests of one’s communities - rather it is a zealous belief that by having some sense of legitimate nationhood according to ones dogma, then Scotland is free from ills and woes that are visited upon it by the perfidious Albion and the evil Westminster.

Symbolically, that can be represented by changing the flags. And flags twirl in the wind.

I appreciate that ‘twirly flags’ might sound a bit patronising to some. I would also say that there are far bigger things in the world than whether Scotland is part of the U.K. or not, and failing to acknowledge that is quite patronising for me. Brexit is more important. Climate change is more important still. It’s funny how few posts there are on here about people taking responsibility for their carbon footprint or whatever, but no shortage slagging off Jo Swinson for her accent :greengrin

You make lots of good points and do a good job challenging a lot of things. However your aggressive anti independence tone, IMO, doesn’t help the debate at times, again IMO. By all means question the notion of nationalism, but don’t relate everything back to “twirly flag waiving”. I think your hostility to independence, while at the same time appearing to never hold the union, the performance of Westminster etc to the same hostility is where some folk think you are a unionist.

In a discussion about the failings of the NHS, education etc in Scotland. I asked about what Westminster was going to do to sort the failings in England & Wales. If I understood you correctly, you never answered the question, nor criticised or held Westminster/Wales/England to account for their performance as you had done with the SNP. You simply made a point about Westminster not actually being it’s own entity and essentially relating it back to “twirly flag waiving”.

There is an independence movement, some of those within that will be the blindly loyal nationalists that want independence for “twirly flag” reasons, others will want it for economic and or/political reasons. Some, like myself, want to break free from Westminster (the rest of England are welcome, leave Westminster and the SE to it) in a forlorn desire to shake up the political system (see my apathetic to politics thread from a while ago) as in essence the majority of politicians are self serving and unrelatable IMO.To simply equate independence to “twirly flag waiving” is a very narrow view IMO.

[J-C]

Re twirly flags, most major international sporting events the fans will wave their nations flags, any march or gathering you will see the flags of each nation. The last time I looked Scotland and England were 2 individual countries where the parliaments were joined together in a union in 1707, at no time did the 2 separate countries ever merge into one. We shared the same Monarch for 100 odd years and due to the rich wealthy land owning money men losing all their money, they went cap in hand to the English.

We have been treated like an extra suburb of England for too long and the people are starting to awake.

[ronaldo7]

That's a valid point and I agree it hasn't helped* but it doesn't mean they couldn't have done better.

* Perhaps a slight understatement there. :greengrin

I think everyone agrees, that more can be done, even me 😂.

I just think we could do it faster than we currently are if we were independent. Enjoying that AWPR are you? 😉

[Fife-Hibee]

We can't even agree that they ain't perfect? I'm disappointed. :greengrin

Point out what the imperfections are and how they can be resolved as part of the UK, otherwise i'll just go on my merry way, continuing to believe that the SNP are unequivocally perfect in every conceivable way. :wink:

[marinello59]

I think everyone agrees, that more can be done, even me 😂.

I just think we could do it faster than we currently are if we were independent. Enjoying that AWPR are you? 😉

I couldn't agree more.
Aye, the AWPR has made a big difference. It was a real pity to see the main section sitting complete and unused for a couple of months while the Government sorted out the mess they made of the contract. It's all good now though. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

You make lots of good points and do a good job challenging a lot of things. However your aggressive anti independence tone, IMO, doesn’t help the debate at times, again IMO. By all means question the notion of nationalism, but don’t relate everything back to “twirly flag waiving”. I think your hostility to independence, while at the same time appearing to never hold the union, the performance of Westminster etc to the same hostility is where some folk think you are a unionist.

In a discussion about the failings of the NHS, education etc in Scotland. I asked about what Westminster was going to do to sort the failings in England & Wales. If I understood you correctly, you never answered the question, nor criticised or held Westminster/Wales/England to account for their performance as you had done with the SNP. You simply made a point about Westminster not actually being it’s own entity and essentially relating it back to “twirly flag waiving”.

There is an independence movement, some of those within that will be the blindly loyal nationalists that want independence for “twirly flag” reasons, others will want it for economic and or/political reasons. Some, like myself, want to break free from Westminster (the rest of England are welcome, leave Westminster and the SE to it) in a forlorn desire to shake up the political system (see my apathetic to politics thread from a while ago) as in essence the majority of politicians are self serving and unrelatable IMO.To simply equate independence to “twirly flag waiving” is a very narrow view IMO.

Top post. *10/10*

[ronaldo7]

I couldn't agree more.
Aye, the AWPR has made a big difference. It was a real pity to see the main section sitting complete and unused for a couple of months while the Government sorted out the mess they made of the contract. It's all good now though. :greengrin

So a 2 month wait, after about 30 long years of unionist inaction. 😆

[Cataplana]

You make lots of good points and do a good job challenging a lot of things. However your aggressive anti independence tone, IMO, doesn’t help the debate at times, again IMO. By all means question the notion of nationalism, but don’t relate everything back to “twirly flag waiving”. I think your hostility to independence, while at the same time appearing to never hold the union, the performance of Westminster etc to the same hostility is where some folk think you are a unionist.

In a discussion about the failings of the NHS, education etc in Scotland. I asked about what Westminster was going to do to sort the failings in England & Wales. If I understood you correctly, you never answered the question, nor criticised or held Westminster/Wales/England to account for their performance as you had done with the SNP. You simply made a point about Westminster not actually being it’s own entity and essentially relating it back to “twirly flag waiving”.

There is an independence movement, some of those within that will be the blindly loyal nationalists that want independence for “twirly flag” reasons, others will want it for economic and or/political reasons. Some, like myself, want to break free from Westminster (the rest of England are welcome, leave Westminster and the SE to it) in a forlorn desire to shake up the political system (see my apathetic to politics thread from a while ago) as in essence the majority of politicians are self serving and unrelatable IMO.To simply equate independence to “twirly flag waiving” is a very narrow view IMO.

Can I just say, over use of flag waving makes me uncomfortable. That opening of the Queensferry Crossing reminded me of Nuremberg.

I broadly support independence, but I can see how it looks to those looking for an excuse not to.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're losing it MA. No grievance in my post just fact. The Scottish government are dependent on the budget they get from Westminster, you can use the word reliant if it makes you feel better but it changes nothing.

No twirly flags in my posts.

Aah, I thought they had additional tax raising powers and had done for years. Still, that would mean you couldn’t use words like ‘dependent’ though wouldn’t it?

[marinello59]

So a 2 month wait, after about 30 long years of unionist inaction. 😆

I agree with you that previous Governments either failed to act then themselves caught up in constant legal challenges to the project.
However once the project started it went well beyond its completion date and was well over budget in addition to the legal wrangling at the end that saw the main section sitting unused. So a much longer delay than a couple of months.

[Mibbes Aye]

That’s twice this week you have accused the SNP members of enjoying the expense system. Is there any evidence of this? You say you only want to point out when you see something wrong? If SNP mp’s are abusing the expenses system the should be thrown out the party quick sharp. Be good to know who is at it?


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Don’t put words in my mouth, I’ve not accused anybody of abusing anything. I’ve merely pointed out that after the initial mucking about in the HoC the SNP contingent appear to have become house-trained.

[Fife-Hibee]

Don’t put words in my mouth, I’ve not accused anybody of abusing anything. I’ve merely pointed out that after the initial mucking about in the HoC the SNP contingent appear to have become house-trained.

Are you still prepared to be swayed by those "flag twirling" Scottish Nationalists? Or has the great Bojo got you firmly onside now?

[Cataplana]

Are you still prepared to be swayed by those "flag twirling" Scottish Nationalists? Or has the great Bojo got you firmly onside now?

Now that's what I call, missing the point spectacularly. You really did play the man instead of the ball there.

:tsk tsk:

[Fife-Hibee]

Now that's what I call, missing the point spectacularly. You really did play the man instead of the ball there.

:tsk tsk:

I must have missed the point. What was the point? :dunno:

[Mibbes Aye]

You make lots of good points and do a good job challenging a lot of things. However your aggressive anti independence tone, IMO, doesn’t help the debate at times, again IMO. By all means question the notion of nationalism, but don’t relate everything back to “twirly flag waiving”. I think your hostility to independence, while at the same time appearing to never hold the union, the performance of Westminster etc to the same hostility is where some folk think you are a unionist.

In a discussion about the failings of the NHS, education etc in Scotland. I asked about what Westminster was going to do to sort the failings in England & Wales. If I understood you correctly, you never answered the question, nor criticised or held Westminster/Wales/England to account for their performance as you had done with the SNP. You simply made a point about Westminster not actually being it’s own entity and essentially relating it back to “twirly flag waiving”.

There is an independence movement, some of those within that will be the blindly loyal nationalists that want independence for “twirly flag” reasons, others will want it for economic and or/political reasons. Some, like myself, want to break free from Westminster (the rest of England are welcome, leave Westminster and the SE to it) in a forlorn desire to shake up the political system (see my apathetic to politics thread from a while ago) as in essence the majority of politicians are self serving and unrelatable IMO.To simply equate independence to “twirly flag waiving” is a very narrow view IMO.

Thanks for your post. I recognise a couple of things now. Talking about twirly flags is quite patronising but it also gets right under the skin of people with a certain belief system :greengrin. I will genuinely try and avoid using the term again, and I don’t wish to offend. At the same time, perhaps it calls into
question why it gets under some people’s skin so much, perhaps I was hitting a raw nerve?

I am not anti-independence as such, I just don’t like nationalism and nationalist rhetoric. I have said many times that I don’t think Holyrood, Indy Holyrood or Westminster are what I think is the best option. My favoured option is unlikely as things stand though.

I am sorry I missed your question about domestic policy in England. In fairness, I can talk to it but I have a lot more understanding about social policy in Scotland and I guess that is what threads like this are focused on. To be honest, I think we would both be bored silly if I was to try and give an in-depth analysis of how England deals with health and education. I’m not sure I could talk to it without lots of reading, so you are probably as well equipped as me to give it a shot! It might actually make for a good read, and debate as it wouldn’t have the heat of being linked to the independence debate.

I enjoyed your apathy thread post, can’t remember if I responded to it but got your sentiment. I love politics, even (or especially) when it is messy. I don’t usually instigate debates on here though, I tend to get drawn into responding when I don’t agree with something posted. And that is usually if it is inaccurate or intemperate. I know there is a strong nationalist majority amongst the folk who post on these kinds of threads. I have no desire to become the new whipping boy now that james310 has disappeared. I really find it hard not to react when I read cheap and lazy vitriol (not you) or straw man arguments (again, not you) or folk using grievance and resentment (again, not you) to try and make a case for something that isn’t really rational. If there is a pragmatic case then fair enough, but I’m never going to buy into the pish about ‘our destiny’ and ‘unshackling ourselves from English masters’, because it is just nonsense.

[Cataplana]

I must have missed the point. What was the point? :dunno:

You did, I'm afraid. The point was that SNP parliamentarians have adapted to life in Westminster, after an initial learning curve.

Your response was to accuse the guy of being partisan, or something. Regardless, it wasn't a response to the point, but more a personal attack which might have been a disguised attempt to discredit it by questioning the credibility of the person making it.

I might have it wrong, your points are very generalistic and open to interpretation on the whole. If I have, what was it you actually meant?

[Fife-Hibee]

You did, I'm afraid. The point was that SNP parliamentarians have adapted to life in Westminster, after an initial learning curve.

Your response was to accuse the guy of being partisan, or something. Regardless, it wasn't a response to the point, but more a personal attack which might have been a disguised attempt to discredit it by questioning the credibility of the person making it.

I might have it wrong, your points are very generalistic and open to interpretation on the whole. If I have, what was it you actually meant?

I simply point out contradictions I see. It's interesting to see somebody make an argument and defend that argument to the hilt. Only to do a complete 180 when that same argument could be applied to a different set of circumstances. It's something I witness a lot in politics.

I wouldn't descibe it as "playing the man", it's simply highlighting these observations.

[Ozyhibby]

You did, I'm afraid. The point was that SNP parliamentarians have adapted to life in Westminster, after an initial learning curve.

Your response was to accuse the guy of being partisan, or something. Regardless, it wasn't a response to the point, but more a personal attack which might have been a disguised attempt to discredit it by questioning the credibility of the person making it.

I might have it wrong, your points are very generalistic and open to interpretation on the whole. If I have, what was it you actually meant?

Actually it was presented as they had adapted to life at Westminster as they had been bought off by the generous expense system.


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[Cataplana]

Actually it was presented as they had adapted to life at Westminster as they had been bought off by the generous expense system.


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I thought that, but tried to be more euphemistic.

Doesn't change the fact that the response was about the person it was addressed to, as opposed to addressing the point.

[Cataplana]

I simply point out contradictions I see. It's interesting to see somebody make an argument and defend that argument to the hilt. Only to do a complete 180 when that same argument could be applied to a different set of circumstances. It's something I witness a lot in politics.

I wouldn't descibe it as "playing the man", it's simply highlighting these observations.

I would, because the points should stand on their own merits rather than on the merits of the person who made them.

[Smartie]

Thanks for your post. I recognise a couple of things now. Talking about twirly flags is quite patronising but it also gets right under the skin of people with a certain belief system :greengrin. I will genuinely try and avoid using the term again, and I don’t wish to offend. At the same time, perhaps it calls into
question why it gets under some people’s skin so much, perhaps I was hitting a raw nerve?

I am not anti-independence as such, I just don’t like nationalism and nationalist rhetoric. I have said many times that I don’t think Holyrood, Indy Holyrood or Westminster are what I think is the best option. My favoured option is unlikely as things stand though.

I am sorry I missed your question about domestic policy in England. In fairness, I can talk to it but I have a lot more understanding about social policy in Scotland and I guess that is what threads like this are focused on. To be honest, I think we would both be bored silly if I was to try and give an in-depth analysis of how England deals with health and education. I’m not sure I could talk to it without lots of reading, so you are probably as well equipped as me to give it a shot! It might actually make for a good read, and debate as it wouldn’t have the heat of being linked to the independence debate.

I enjoyed your apathy thread post, can’t remember if I responded to it but got your sentiment. I love politics, even (or especially) when it is messy. I don’t usually instigate debates on here though, I tend to get drawn into responding when I don’t agree with something posted. And that is usually if it is inaccurate or intemperate. I know there is a strong nationalist majority amongst the folk who post on these kinds of threads. I have no desire to become the new whipping boy now that james310 has disappeared. I really find it hard not to react when I read cheap and lazy vitriol (not you) or straw man arguments (again, not you) or folk using grievance and resentment (again, not you) to try and make a case for something that isn’t really rational. If there is a pragmatic case then fair enough, but I’m never going to buy into the pish about ‘our destiny’ and ‘unshackling ourselves from English masters’, because it is just nonsense.

It certainly strikes a raw nerve, mainly because I think it is so often so inaccurate.

Do palpably non-racist English Brexiteers who happen to have their own valid reasons for believing in what they believe in get annoyed at being lazily labelled racist? You bet.

A strong argument can be made for Scottish independence, remaining within the EU and protecting freedom of movement as being a rejection of the "red, white and blue Brexit" that is steeped in dangerous twirly flag nationalism.

[Ozyhibby]

It certainly strikes a raw nerve, mainly because I think it is so often so inaccurate.

Do palpably non-racist English Brexiteers who happen to have their own valid reasons for believing in what they believe in get annoyed at being lazily labelled racist? You bet.

A strong argument can be made for Scottish independence, remaining within the EU and protecting freedom of movement as being a rejection of the "red, white and blue Brexit" that is steeped in dangerous twirly flag nationalism.

It’s an attempt to characterise the SNP and the Yes movement in a way that reminds of more unsavoury versions of nationalism. The problem is that it bears no relation to reality. The Yes movement is inclusive of all who live in Scotland. It’s is not anti English or anti anyone else. And it does not make claims of Scottish superiority either, only that it is best that we take the decisions that most effect us, good or bad.
There is flag waiving on both sides of the debate but it’s not really important and it adds nothing to the debate on here to constantly reference it.


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[Jack]

It certainly strikes a raw nerve, mainly because I think it is so often so inaccurate.

Do palpably non-racist English Brexiteers who happen to have their own valid reasons for believing in what they believe in get annoyed at being lazily labelled racist? You bet.

A strong argument can be made for Scottish independence, remaining within the EU and protecting freedom of movement as being a rejection of the "red, white and blue Brexit" that is steeped in dangerous twirly flag nationalism.

There's very little, if any, blue in the "red, white and blue Brexit" ;-)

[ronaldo7]

For this thread, could we at least countenance the word, Brexiteers, as being, separatists.

It would leave us on level playing field, in some minds. 😉

[McD]

I really worry for people who use ignore functions online. It makes me wonder how they deal with real life dilemmas where ignore buttons aren't an option. It's arguably one of the greatest contributing factors of the modern age where people simply refuse to tolerate views that challenge their own, or create the potential for compromise. No wonder politics is in such a mess.

For the record, I don't think anybody is a "tosser" on here, even those who are completely opposed to my own views in every conceivable category. There's no point sticking them on ignore, when there's every chance that i'm going to need to face people just like them out there in the real world.


this is an excellent post :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Don’t put words in my mouth, I’ve not accused anybody of abusing anything. I’ve merely pointed out that after the initial mucking about in the HoC the SNP contingent appear to have become house-trained.

I see that the clapping has improved since they introduced it. You'll be gutted that standards have dropped. 😆

As well as that, sitting in someone's seat who's been there for a while, but not reserved to them, seems to be the norm now. Maybe the changes are bringing your beloved Westminster into the 21st century. 😂

[ronaldo7]

I agree with you that previous Governments either failed to act then themselves caught up in constant legal challenges to the project.
However once the project started it went well beyond its completion date and was well over budget in addition to the legal wrangling at the end that saw the main section sitting unused. So a much longer delay than a couple of months.

I'm getting some work done on my old aunties house just now, and it's a bit of a bain when the building company goes bust, but you're right, when you say you've got to get the contract tied down.

Glad you're enjoying your newfound access. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

I see that the clapping has improved since they introduced it. You'll be gutted that standards have dropped. 😆

As well as that, sitting in someone's seat who's been there for a while, but not reserved to them, seems to be the norm now. Maybe the changes are bringing your beloved Westminster into the 21st century. 😂

‘My beloved Westminster’, really? I’ve made it clear what I think of Westminster and it not being fit for purpose.

Don’t misrepresent me to make a cheap and tawdry point. But then again, that seems to be what you are about.

[DaveF]

to make a cheap and tawdry point.

Like twirly flags 😁

[ronaldo7]

‘My beloved Westminster’, really? I’ve made it clear what I think of Westminster and it not being fit for purpose.

Don’t misrepresent me to make a cheap and tawdry point. But then again, that seems to be what you are about.

Touched a wee nerve have, "we". 😉

[Fife-Hibee]

‘My beloved Westminster’, really? I’ve made it clear what I think of Westminster and it not being fit for purpose.

Don’t misrepresent me to make a cheap and tawdry point. But then again, that seems to be what you are about.

Yet, you think that parliament that isn't fit for purpose should decide if or when Scotland can make decisions regarding it's own sovereignty.

[ronaldo7]

Yet, you think that parliament that isn't fit for purpose should decide if or when Scotland can make decisions regarding it's own sovereignty.

He's twirling himself in knots, never mind flags. 😆.

[marinello59]

I'm getting some work done on my old aunties house just now, and it's a bit of a bain when the building company goes bust, but you're right, when you say you've got to get the contract tied down.

Glad you're enjoying your newfound access. 😉

You were happy to praise the Government over the success of the Queensferry crossing coming in under budget and on time . As was I . And they were happy to trumpet it as their triumph. So they have to take ownership when things go wrong as well don’t they?

[ronaldo7]

You were happy to praise the Government over the success of the Queensferry crossing coming in under budget and on time . As was I . And they were happy to trumpet it as their triumph. So they have to take ownership when things go wrong as well don’t they?

Yes, although not when private companies go paps up.

Happy to take the rough with the smooth, but it seems that even when you're top of the pops, you get told you're mince by some unionist apologist. No flags needed, just bowler hats. 😉

[marinello59]

Yes, although not when private companies go paps up.

Happy to take the rough with the smooth, but it seems that even when you're top of the pops, you get told you're mince by some unionist apologist. No flags needed, just bowler hats. ��

The problems were not caused by a private company going bust, things had gone wrong long before that.
I have no idea why you have mentioned unionist apologists in your reply to me. Or flags. Or bowler hats. Care to explain? I’m totally lost.

[ronaldo7]

The problems were not caused by a private company going bust, things had gone wrong long before that.
I have no idea why you have mentioned unionist apologists in your reply to me. Or flags. Or bowler hats. Care to explain? I’m totally lost.

Things go awry in all projects, it's what you do to get them back on track that matters. Glad you're enjoying the Awpr.

I thought you could introduce flags, bowlers or any other thing on this thread, sorry about that. Happy to "separate" it from the other posts. 😉

[Pretty Boy]

The coordinated walk out of Tory MPs when Joanna Cherry rose to speak in the Commons today speaks volumes about what that party think of Scotland, as if we didn't already know.

Led by a Scottish Tory MP with a majority of 154 no less. Some have more to fear from a general election than others....

[Mibbes Aye]

Like twirly flags 😁

Do you have a problem with ‘twirly flags’? If so, what is it?

[Mibbes Aye]

Touched a wee nerve have, "we". 😉

Perhaps you can explain ‘my beloved Westminster’?

[McD]

The coordinated walk out of Tory MPs when Joanna Cherry rose to speak in the Commons today speaks volumes about what that party think of Scotland, as if we didn't already know.

Led by a Scottish Tory MP with a majority of 154 no less. Some have more to fear from a general election than others....


followed a short while later by Rees-Mogg walking out after another SNP MP began to speak directly to his own point of order.

Bercow was clearly embarrassed and annoyed about the whole carry on

[marinello59]

Things go awry in all projects, it's what you do to get them back on track that matters. Glad you're enjoying the Awpr.

I thought you could introduce flags, bowlers or any other thing on this thread, sorry about that. Happy to "separate" it from the other posts. 😉
Why mention it in reply to me? It’s simply bizarre. The AWPR was a management issue, not a constitutional issue. Unless you were calling me a Unionist apologist for criticising the SNP of course. I’m sure your weren’t though.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yet, you think that parliament that isn't fit for purpose should decide if or when Scotland can make decisions regarding it's own sovereignty.

Neither Westminster or Holyrood is fit for purpose in delivering services that meet the needs of me, my children and my community, in my opinion. They aren’t awful, we could just do better.

Sovereignty is neither here or there, you are missing the point completely.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Do you have a problem with ‘twirly flags’? If so, what is it?

You really need that answered?

[Mibbes Aye]

You really need that answered?

On you go.

[DaveF]

Do you have a problem with ‘twirly flags’? If so, what is it?

Lighten up eh, it was a light hearted jibe at your previous comments. You take yourself way too seriously.

Don't bother replying. I don't need a lecture at this time of night.

[stoneyburn hibs]

On you go.

Well it's kind of a western side of Edinburgh thing, I'd put a meme up but I know it upsets you.

[Hibrandenburg]

The coordinated walk out of Tory MPs when Joanna Cherry rose to speak in the Commons today speaks volumes about what that party think of Scotland, as if we didn't already know.

Led by a Scottish Tory MP with a majority of 154 no less. Some have more to fear from a general election than others....

Stop your grievance politics, that's a nasty nationalist trait.

[1875godsgift]

On you go.

:flag::flag::flag::sauzee::sauzee::sauzee::saltire flag:saltireflag:saltireflag

[Fife-Hibee]

Neither Westminster or Holyrood is fit for purpose in delivering services that meet the needs of me, my children and my community, in my opinion. They aren’t awful, we could just do better.

I agree. So the question is, how do we make Holyrood fit for purpose?


Sovereignty is neither here or there, you are missing the point completely.

Read the above again and ask yourself if this is really true.

[ronaldo7]

:flag::flag::flag::sauzee::sauzee::sauzee::saltire flag:saltireflag:saltireflag

Reported on behalf of MA. Unsigned though. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Reported on behalf of MA. Unsigned though. 😉

But did you send other reports saying that you/he didn't mean it 😉

[Cataplana]

Neither Westminster or Holyrood is fit for purpose in delivering services that meet the needs of me, my children and my community, in my opinion. They aren’t awful, we could just do better.

Sovereignty is neither here or there, you are missing the point completely.

Speaking as an Edinburgh resident, the services we receive relative to the council tax we pay, are apalling.

Whether that is Westminster or Holyrood's fault, I don't know, but someone should be able to hold the council to account. It can find money to invest on infrastructure such as trams, but cannot maintain a social services budget.

I'm sure there are similar abuses of power elsewhere.

[Moulin Yarns]

Speaking as an Edinburgh resident, the services we receive relative to the council tax we pay, are apalling.

Whether that is Westminster or Holyrood's fault, I don't know, but someone should be able to hold the council to account. It can find money to invest on infrastructure such as trams, but cannot maintain a social services budget.

I'm sure there are similar abuses of power elsewhere.

Of course someone can hold the council to account. Every time there is an election to the council you can vote for who you believe will do a better job.

[Ozyhibby]

Speaking as an Edinburgh resident, the services we receive relative to the council tax we pay, are apalling.

Whether that is Westminster or Holyrood's fault, I don't know, but someone should be able to hold the council to account. It can find money to invest on infrastructure such as trams, but cannot maintain a social services budget.

I'm sure there are similar abuses of power elsewhere.

And in Edinburgh’s defence it doesn’t get to keep all the business rates it collect but has to share it with other councils. Maybe if it did then it could do better.
I’m always impressed with the job Fife council does. The place always looks immaculate when you drive through it.


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[Moulin Yarns]

And in Edinburgh’s defence it doesn’t get to keep all the business rates it collect but has to share it with other councils. Maybe if it did then it could do better.
I’m always impressed with the job Fife council does. The place always looks immaculate when you drive through it.


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Have you tried stopping in Cardenden or Cowdenbeath? 😉

[Fife-Hibee]

Of course someone can hold the council to account. Every time there is an election to the council you can vote for who you believe will do a better job.

Problem is, regardless of who is voted into council, they generally do things the same way regardless. Whenever you hear a party complain about decisions made by other parties in charge of that council, it's a big load of nonsense. They would almost certainly have made the same decision themselves had they been running the council instead.

[Cataplana]

And in Edinburgh’s defence it doesn’t get to keep all the business rates it collect but has to share it with other councils. Maybe if it did then it could do better.
I’m always impressed with the job Fife council does. The place always looks immaculate when you drive through it.


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It could help itself by easing the pressure on services by cutting back on the number of students and tourists who don't pay a penny for the city's upkeep.

However the money is available to fund a tramline that will be of benefit to a small number of citizens, yet of great benefit to those with undeveloped land along the route.

We must be unique in that we end up worse off as a result of the successes our clowncil crow about.

[Ozyhibby]

It could help itself by easing the pressure on services by cutting back on the number of students and tourists who don't pay a penny for the city's upkeep.

However the money is available to fund a tramline that will be of benefit to a small number of citizens, yet of great benefit to those with undeveloped land along the route.

We must be unique in that we end up worse off as a result of the successes our clowncil crow about.

Students and tourists bring in a lot of money to Edinburgh. They more than pay for themselves.


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[Cataplana]

Students and tourists bring in a lot of money to Edinburgh. They more than pay for themselves.


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I would like to see this quantified in a reliable manner, because it seems that all we have is the word of the likes of the Chamber of Commerce, Festival Promoters, Hoteliers, and business development groups.

The question that I keep coming back to is, if tourism and student accommodation is such a money spinner, how come the city is skint? (I think it might have something to do with multinationals, and absentee landlords cleaning up whilst the citizens pay for the infrastructure to maintain their businesses.

[Ozyhibby]

I would like to see this quantified in a reliable manner, because it seems that all we have is the word of the likes of the Chamber of Commerce, Festival Promoters, Hoteliers, and business development groups.

The question that I keep coming back to is, if tourism and student accommodation is such a money spinner, how come the city is skint? (I think it might have something to do with multinationals, and absentee landlords cleaning up whilst the citizens pay for the infrastructure to maintain their businesses.

Local govt funding is a shambles and has been for years. It’s also very difficult to reform because there will be winners and losers and the losers will kick and scream and the winners will stay silent.



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[Cataplana]

Local govt funding is a shambles and has been for years. It’s also very difficult to reform because there will be winners and losers and the losers will kick and scream and the winners will stay silent.



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I suppose, but there must be quantifiable figure to support the premise that tourism and students are good for the local economy. After all, it appears that most of the profits leave the city and they don't pay anything towards its upkeep.

In addition, it becomes harder to attract well paid jobs in sectors such as finance and IT, as the pressure put on house prices by the likes of Air B n B, makes Edinburgh a much less attractive place to settle down.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose, but there must be quantifiable figure to support the premise that tourism and students are good for the local economy. After all, it appears that most of the profits leave the city and they don't pay anything towards its upkeep.

In addition, it becomes harder to attract well paid jobs in sectors such as finance and IT, as the pressure put on house prices by the likes of Air B n B, makes Edinburgh a much less attractive place to settle down.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15820123.international-students-worth-2bn-to-scottish-economy/

That’s just the international students. Having a well educated population is great for Edinburgh. If it was me I would be encouraging the Universities to expand. The student population in Edinburgh support a massive amount of jobs in the city and it also encourages big companies to locate here because of the supply of well educated labour.
And tourists spend a lot of money in the city. Most cities in the UK would love to attract the tourists we do. They support a massive amount of jobs, a lot done by the students.


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[Cataplana]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15820123.international-students-worth-2bn-to-scottish-economy/

That’s just the international students. Having a well educated population is great for Edinburgh. If it was me I would be encouraging the Universities to expand. The student population in Edinburgh support a massive amount of jobs in the city and it also encourages big companies to locate here because of the supply of well educated labour.
And tourists spend a lot of money in the city. Most cities in the UK would love to attract the tourists we do. They support a massive amount of jobs, a lot done by the students.


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Could you be more specific? Says who, and how do we measure those things?

Or, to get back on track, if you are right, is it Holyrood, or Westminster's fault that, despite this payola you report, services are getting cut, the roads are a disgrace. and Edinburgh residents feel like strangers in their own city?

[Ozyhibby]

Could you be more specific? Says who, and how do we measure those things?

Or, to get back on track, if you are right, is it Holyrood, or Westminster's fault that, despite this payola you report, services are getting cut, the roads are a disgrace. and Edinburgh residents feel like strangers in their own city?

I would say the standard of living in Edinburgh is higher than similar size cities in the UK who have smaller student populations or less tourists.
I have never heard of any city trying to discourage tourism.


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[Cataplana]

I would say the standard of living in Edinburgh is higher than similar size cities in the UK who have smaller student populations or less tourists.
I have never heard of any city trying to discourage tourism.


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No offence, but you are just throwing more unsubstantiated claims into the mix. Apart from anything else, I doubt the standard of living in Muirhouse is higher than it is in Jesmond, Kelvinside, or Headingley.

Amsterdam, Venice, Florence, Palma Majorca and several other cities are actively discouraging tourism due to the damage it has done to the fabric of their cities, as well as the effect it has had on attracting real, well paid jobs.

As the thread is about Scottish Independence, and we are straying far from that topic now, can I suggest we just stop?

ps
A report by London Economics, on behalf of the Higher Education Policy Institute, found overseas students at Scottish universities generated £1.94 billion.

Seriously?

[Ozyhibby]

Fair enough. We should probably just close the universities and hotels. I’m sure it will be fine.


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[ronaldo7]

Why mention it in reply to me? It’s simply bizarre. The AWPR was a management issue, not a constitutional issue. Unless you were calling me a Unionist apologist for criticising the SNP of course. I’m sure your weren’t though.

Of course not. You know what's best for Scotland. 💙

[Smartie]

Most folk, one way or another, end up spending everything they earn, and one way or another most of that money ends up with the government.

We get hugely hung up on income tax and income tax rates. Students will generate a significant amount of VAT on almost everything they spend. Tourists, from the moment they land at the airport, are generating significant sums of tax for the government.

The biggest way tax income is lost is when it is accumulated by the super rich, cleverly guided around tax by expensive accountants and then left lying dormant in accounts.

Everyone living a normal life, day to day, is generating tax.

We should be grateful to have a city that is so appealing to students and tourists and without them we would be far worse off.

That's not to say we shouldn't be looking at the impact these new student flats springing up everywhere are having on communities.

To make it relevant to the thread title - take tourists and students away and the economic case for Scotland as an independent nation (as anything, really) becomes much weaker.

[CloudSquall]

With our population growth (or lack of it) I think we should be doing all we can to encourage international students to come to Scotland and make it their home.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't know which thread to put this on but Dr Phillipa Whitford has come over very well on Question Time tonight, first real time I've seen her get real TV time, the SNP should use her more on these kind of shows, she seems less abrasive than the likes of Blackford or Cherry

Just watched this after getting back from holiday, yes she did make a good impression. What stood out more though was Martin Daubny from the Brexit Party, is it just me or do all these Brexit Party politicians not come across as a little bit screwy? They all seem to have personality flaws that makes them look and sound like they're off their meds.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just watched this after getting back from holiday, yes she did make a good impression. What stood out more though was Martin Daubny from the Brexit Party, is it just me or do all these Brexit Party politicians not come across as a little bit screwy? They all seem to have personality flaws that makes them look and sound like they're off their meds.

My impression of him was that he still thought he was editor of loaded magazine and needs to be a twat

[cabbageandribs1875]

My impression of him was that he still thought he was editor of loaded magazine and needs to be a twat


is this near your neck of the woods MY ....opened in perth yesterday




https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72527140_2530213160348096_1228383912493842432_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQm1odtb0TNI1VL6fKTKkT9OgIGaKBk6VwjvvSUEKLj 4jDSRbhbM4HuL3tTTulWBAPc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=ef0cf847a1ee1a831f7a6a4a8368ba4c&oe=5E205FE2

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73160287_2530213280348084_5956170580628602880_o.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlZB8lAuW5ufWgtO_sLTF0vJGi50esCKhCA_ZYnXVV GmQGXn8vEvoCu_iop30v3pAk&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=9b3ae8359f3c942467c3cb613d3fb3e3&oe=5E2AEFB0

[Moulin Yarns]

is this near your neck of the woods MY ....opened in perth yesterday




https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72527140_2530213160348096_1228383912493842432_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQm1odtb0TNI1VL6fKTKkT9OgIGaKBk6VwjvvSUEKLj 4jDSRbhbM4HuL3tTTulWBAPc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=ef0cf847a1ee1a831f7a6a4a8368ba4c&oe=5E205FE2

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73160287_2530213280348084_5956170580628602880_o.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlZB8lAuW5ufWgtO_sLTF0vJGi50esCKhCA_ZYnXVV GmQGXn8vEvoCu_iop30v3pAk&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=9b3ae8359f3c942467c3cb613d3fb3e3&oe=5E2AEFB0

Yes. I was away in Inverness but knew that it was opening.

Looking at the photos I see someone I recognise.

[Jack]

I agree with what everyone is saying about how tourism and students add the the diversity of Edinburgh but in my opinion the leaning towards tourism has gone too far and has done over the last couple of decades.

Residents of Edinburgh only have to think back to this years festival when at times it was all but impossible to get around the city and look forward to the Christmas mayhem while in between normally busy thoroughfares are closed for Netflix!

In the meantime (and only as an example) bins in the suburbs overflow because all the resources are used up trying to maintain the Disney like qualities of the city centre.

BTW those wishing to park on match days will soon not be able to as residents parking is introduced over Leith. The residents being bled dry again and there's no appreciable benefit to anyone other than the council.

[Ozyhibby]

When demand outstrips supply like it does in August, it’s time to put up the price. The tourist tax when it comes in should take care of that.


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[StevieC]

is this near your neck of the woods MY ....opened in perth yesterday




https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72527140_2530213160348096_1228383912493842432_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQm1odtb0TNI1VL6fKTKkT9OgIGaKBk6VwjvvSUEKLj 4jDSRbhbM4HuL3tTTulWBAPc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=ef0cf847a1ee1a831f7a6a4a8368ba4c&oe=5E205FE2

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73160287_2530213280348084_5956170580628602880_o.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlZB8lAuW5ufWgtO_sLTF0vJGi50esCKhCA_ZYnXVV GmQGXn8vEvoCu_iop30v3pAk&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=9b3ae8359f3c942467c3cb613d3fb3e3&oe=5E2AEFB0

“YES Perth City” were the driving force behind this. They’ve been working on the project for a while, whilst trying to secure the funding needed to open it.

I’ve not managed to get in and visit it yet, but will hopefully get a chance to check it out next weekend.

[Mibbes Aye]

“YES Perth City” were the driving force behind this. They’ve been working on the project for a while, whilst trying to secure the funding needed to open it.

I’ve not managed to get in and visit it yet, but will hopefully get a chance to check it out next weekend.

Is it on the High Street? No judgement, but a lot of my extended family are in Perth, Scone and the surrounding area. Just interested.

[McD]

When demand outstrips supply like it does in August, it’s time to put up the price. The tourist tax when it comes in should take care of that.


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as well as the tax on businesses having car parks (which in many cases could well be passed onto the employees)

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it on the High Street? No judgement, but a lot of my extended family are in Perth, Scone and the surrounding area. Just interested.

I think it's in old high street. Opposite end to the river.

[Ozyhibby]

as well as the tax on businesses having car parks (which in many cases could well be passed onto the employees)

As far as I know, no council has implemented that one yet.


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[Moulin Yarns]

As far as I know, no council has implemented that one yet.


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None in Scotland, but it has been in place for the past 7 years in Nottingham, and I have it on good authority that it wasn't introduced by the SNP. 😉

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/better-transport/winning-policy-nottinghams-workplace-parking-levy

[McD]

As far as I know, no council has implemented that one yet.


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None in Scotland, but it has been in place for the past 7 years in Nottingham, and I have it on good authority that it wasn't introduced by the SNP. 😉

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/better-transport/winning-policy-nottinghams-workplace-parking-levy


I may be completely wrong, I thought I heard recently that the legislation was passed in Scottish Parliament, with both Edinburgh and Glasgow councils indicating they would be implementing.


totally agree that Nottingham workers can’t blame the SNP though :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

totally agree that Nottingham workers can’t blame the SNP though :greengrin

Oh they can try.

Something like "It's the SNPs fault that Westminster borrows 25billion a year and claims to spend half of it on Scotland directly."

[SHODAN]

The deal's going through. Only way to avoid the future United Tax Haven is through independence.

[Slavers]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-scottish-independence-voters-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614?fbclid=IwAR1pFDLIlxZHYIzK-zRRAE_x6iXeU5vVG6dBClFMdDp22BvR5gOV6BBVe3E

New poll shows that voters are turning their back on Scottish Independence and now want to remain UK.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-scottish-independence-voters-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614?fbclid=IwAR1pFDLIlxZHYIzK-zRRAE_x6iXeU5vVG6dBClFMdDp22BvR5gOV6BBVe3E

New poll shows that voters are turning their back on Scottish Independence and now want to remain UK.

Still shows 51% in favour of remaining part of the UK. Down from the 55.3% of 2014. So not sure who is "turning their back on Scottish Independence" here.

[Slavers]

Still shows 51% in favour of remaining part of the UK. Down from the 55.3% of 2014. So not sure who is "turning their back on Scottish Independence" here.

"It also found 16% of voters who backed independence in the 2014 referendum now ‘completely" support Scotland staying part of the UK - compared to just 4% of 2014 ‘No’ voters who 'completely" support independence."

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-scottish-independence-voters-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614?fbclid=IwAR1pFDLIlxZHYIzK-zRRAE_x6iXeU5vVG6dBClFMdDp22BvR5gOV6BBVe3E

New poll shows that voters are turning their back on Scottish Independence and now want to remain UK.

Might not be all it seems ...

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/10/on-scale-of-confusion-from-0-to-10.html


"Just had a really interesting - if embarrassing - experience taking a Survation poll. It started out about me - where I lived (which region in Scotland - clearly Scotland only), age, children, income - then on to how I voted in 2017, 2016 and 2014. Then - this is the interesting and embarrassing bit - it asked a question about independence on a scale of 0 or 1 to 10. I went straight to 10 ("Totally in favour of") and clicked next and only then realised that 10 was "Totally in favour of staying within the UK" (or similar) while 0 or 1 was "Totally in favour of independence". I tried to go back but couldn't so stopped the poll, in the hope my vote won't be counted. A real life example of how the wording of the question in a different way (and one that confusingly harked back to the 1 to 10 questions Yes canvassers asked in 2014 where the 10 was dead in favour of independence) can skew the result. I'm wondering if it was deliberate."

Last 4 polls on the standard question - "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

Y50 N50 - Panelbase 9-11 Oct
Y49 N51 - Yougov 30 Aug - 3 Sep
Y52 N48 - Ashcroft 30 Jul - 2 Aug
Y49 N51 - Panelbase 18-20 Jun

Conclusion - virtual dead heat.

[CloudSquall]

Did it ask the same Yes or No question in regards to independence that the more regular polls are asking?

Typically you find the polls with straight yes or no questions are showing similar numbers (both yes and no between 48 and 52%) while any other questioning usually produces outliers.

Edit: JeMeSouviens post covers the above :greengrin.

[Fife-Hibee]

"It also found 16% of voters who backed independence in the 2014 referendum now ‘completely" support Scotland staying part of the UK - compared to just 4% of 2014 ‘No’ voters who 'completely" support independence."

Which is an ultimately meaningless statistic. All that matters is how certain people are of how they're going to vote on the actual day.

[Peevemor]

Which is an ultimately meaningless statistic. All that matters is how certain people are of how they're going to vote on the actual day.

And given that we still don't know what's happening with Brexit, any poll result is currently pretty meaningless.

[Fife-Hibee]

And given that we still don't know what's happening with Brexit, any poll result is currently pretty meaningless.

Indeed. It's not surprising that some Leave voters that voted YES in 2014 have completely deserted the idea of Scottish Independence. Remain voters who voted NO in 2014 are still holding out for some miraculous U-Turn. When it dawns on them that there isn't going to be one, they'll go from "maybe independence" to "give us independence now".

[DaveF]

I live my life by believing the exact opposite of whatever that slavers dude posts.

Going along quite nicely.

[The Harp Awakes]

"It also found 16% of voters who backed independence in the 2014 referendum now ‘completely" support Scotland staying part of the UK - compared to just 4% of 2014 ‘No’ voters who 'completely" support independence."

I think if you look hard enough at the numbers in any one off opinion poll, you can always find figures that support what you want to see. They give a snapshot of opinion on a tiny portion of the electorate at one moment in time so should always be treated with caution.

Opinion polls can be useful IMO only over a period to spot trends. Therefore, the only thing you can say about the opinion polls on Scottish Independence over the last few months is that it looks like opinion is pretty much split down the middle 50/50.

If that is a realistic estimate/trend, I take great heart from this as a nationalist. 6 months before the 2014 referendum, on average, opinion polls had been polling Yes at ~28%. On the day of the referendum in 2014 Yes actually polled 45%. I would expect a similar change in attitude towards 'Yes' among the electorate in the campaign leading to indyref2, particularly because of the Brexit disaster and an increasingly unpopular (in Scotland) right wing Tory party led by Boris, which is likely to form the next Government in Westminster after a GE.

If I was a Unionist in Scotland right now, I think I would be concerned. Your biggest chance of avoiding Scottish independence may be to hope that Boris doesn't grant indyref2. However that doesn't seem a sustainable position, particularly if there is a renewed SNP surge at the coming GE. Also Boris is so unpredictable, he may well soon be in the 'so what if the Scots go' camp; he threw the NI Unionists/DUP under the bus in the blink of an eye last week.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think if you look hard enough at the numbers in any one off opinion poll, you can always find figures that support what you want to see. They give a snapshot of opinion on a tiny portion of the electorate at one moment in time so should always be treated with caution.

Opinion polls can be useful IMO only over a period to spot trends. Therefore, the only thing you can say about the opinion polls on Scottish Independence over the last few months is that it looks like opinion is pretty much split down the middle 50/50.

If that is a realistic estimate/trend, I take great heart from this as a nationalist. 6 months before the 2014 referendum, on average, opinion polls had been polling Yes at ~28%. On the day of the referendum in 2014 Yes actually polled 45%. I would expect a similar change in attitude towards 'Yes' among the electorate in the campaign leading to indyref2, particularly because of the Brexit disaster and an increasingly unpopular (in Scotland) right wing Tory party led by Boris, which is likely to form the next Government in Westminster after a GE.

If I was a Unionist in Scotland right now, I think I would be concerned. Your biggest chance of avoiding Scottish independence may be to hope that Boris doesn't grant indyref2. However that doesn't seem a sustainable position, particularly if there is a renewed SNP surge at the coming GE. Also Boris is so unpredictable, he may well soon be in the 'so what if the Scots go' camp; he threw the NI Unionists/DUP under the bus in the blink of an eye last week.

Difference is, the UK Government can afford to throw Northern Ireland under the bus. Not so much so with Scotland. I personally hope he does keep denying us the right to have another vote, then we can just skip the vote altogether.

[Moulin Yarns]

Difference is, the UK Government can afford to throw Northern Ireland under the bus. Not so much so with Scotland. I personally hope he does keep denying us the right to have another vote, then we can just skip the vote altogether.

NOOOO! There needs to be a legal referendum or we will end up with a similar situation to Brexit.

[Fife-Hibee]

NOOOO! There needs to be a legal referendum or we will end up with a similar situation to Brexit.

Westminster has never let anybody leave their "union" legally. Scotland will be no exception. Dictatorships don't give you a vote when they think it will actually make a difference.

[Ozyhibby]

Westminster has never let anybody leave their "union" legally. Scotland will be no exception. Dictatorships don't give you a vote when they think it will actually make a difference.

We don’t live in a dictatorship and we will get another vote.


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[Ozyhibby]

There are few changes in the circumstances of the next indyref compared with 2014.

Advantages

1. Lack of talent to man BT2 and what they do have are Tories.
2. Attitude of England this time will have changed from ‘please stay’ to ‘just **** off’. Can only help.
3. Starting position. Polls at 50/50 is better than than last time where Indy was polling at 28/29%.
4. Brexit will sort out all trading relationship issues one way or another. Public more knowledgable about that.
5. Bigger pool of SNP talent now.
6. Time helps, older voters pass on, younger generation far more pro Indy.
7. EU immigrants hopefully more pro Indy than last time as we hope to stay in EU.
8. Boris Johnson and far right Tories in general and better opponents than David Cameron.
9. Remian voters will be a lot more sympathetic.


Disadvantages

1. If Johnson deal passed then there will be a hard border.
2. People afraid of the amount of change after brexit fiasco.
3. Currency issue needs more clarity. Needs simplified. Put on a Bus.



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[Fife-Hibee]

We don’t live in a dictatorship and we will get another vote.


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We do and we won't.

The only reason we got one in the first place is because Westminster never thought there was a glimmer of a chance that we'd ever actually vote for it. The momentum that was built up by the YES campaign leading up to that vote was a little too uncomfortable for their liking.

If we weren't in a dictatorship, then permission wouldn't be necessary after already providing a mandate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Westminster has never let anybody leave their "union" legally. Scotland will be no exception. Dictatorships don't give you a vote when they think it will actually make a difference.

If you mean the Commonwealth, then you need to do some homework.

[Fife-Hibee]

On yesterdays poll and why it isn't good news for the "union".

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17986287.scots-support-remaining-uk-wane/

[The Harp Awakes]

On yesterdays poll and why it isn't good news for the "union".

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17986287.scots-support-remaining-uk-wane/

Good to see one of the broadsheets picking up on this. The trend over the last year or so continues to signal an increase in support for independence. The specific numbers within each poll are best ignored, it's the trend and momentum that matters and it's clearly with the Yes side.

[Cataplana]

Having seen Johnson's bumbling response to Blackford last night, I don't think the Tories will do well at the election.

Muttering about giving up control of our fisheries to Europe, as opposed to having him and his cronies controlling them in London.

I can't see anyone thinking a Johnson government is what Scotland needs.

[Ozyhibby]

Having seen Johnson's bumbling response to Blackford last night, I don't think the Tories will do well at the election.

Muttering about giving up control of our fisheries to Europe, as opposed to having him and his cronies controlling them in London.

I can't see anyone thinking a Johnson government is what Scotland needs.

The fishing thing amazes me. How many people in Scotland actually work in the fishing industry? It must be a tiny fraction of the workforce.


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[marinello59]

The fishing thing amazes me. How many people in Scotland actually work in the fishing industry? It must be a tiny fraction of the workforce.


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There was enough of them to make a difference to the number of seats held by the SNP in the North East at the last election by switching their vote directly from SNP to Tory.

[WeeRussell]

I'm far from an expert but anyone else think Independence is a cert now?

I think if Brexit goes ahead, Independence does too.

Kind of gives me slightly mixed feelings on the whole thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm far from an expert but anyone else think Independence is a cert now?

I think if Brexit goes ahead, Independence does too.

Kind of gives me slightly mixed feelings on the whole thing.

I was talking to someone I know, a senior citizen, who travelled down to London to take part in the anti Brexit march, the first time he had felt strongly enough to protest. We chatted about it and I said I had been on marches in Dundee and Edinburgh but didn't say what they were. He asked and I explained they were for Scottish Independence. He told me he had actively campaigned against Independence but with the mess of Brexit he is now fully on the side of independence.

One more person to make the journey to Yes.

[Slavers]

I'm far from an expert but anyone else think Independence is a cert now?

I think if Brexit goes ahead, Independence does too.

Kind of gives me slightly mixed feelings on the whole thing.

No once it becomes clear what Independence means Scottish people will vote remain UK.

Voters will be faced with a choice of remaining part of the UK that has deal with the EU or voting for an Independent Scotland that is neither in the UK or the EU then the choice will be fairly simple - remain with the UK.

[Peevemor]

No once it becomes clear what Independence means Scottish people will vote remain UK.

Voters will be faced with a choice of remaining part of the UK that has deal with the EU or voting for an Independent Scotland that is neither in the UK or the EU then the choice will be fairly simple - remain with the UK.

:doh: Nice try.

[WeeRussell]

No once it becomes clear what Independence means Scottish people will vote remain UK.

Voters will be faced with a choice of remaining part of the UK that has deal with the EU or voting for an Independent Scotland that is neither in the UK or the EU then the choice will be fairly simple - remain with the UK.

Thanks for clearing that up.

But given what the most recent deal means (or doesn't mean) for Scotland, you're kidding right?

[Peevemor]

Thanks for clearing that up.

But given what the most recent deal means (or doesn't mean) for Scotland, you're kidding right?

I think it's from the Bojo school of reasoning.

[WeeRussell]

I was talking to someone I know, a senior citizen, who travelled down to London to take part in the anti Brexit march, the first time he had felt strongly enough to protest. We chatted about it and I said I had been on marches in Dundee and Edinburgh but didn't say what they were. He asked and I explained they were for Scottish Independence. He told me he had actively campaigned against Independence but with the mess of Brexit he is now fully on the side of independence.

One more person to make the journey to Yes.

:aok:

Albeit all anecdotal, I hear more and more of these stories. I don't think I've heard a single one of someone going the other way.

Maybe one of our resident posters on the other side of the debate will be along to change that, which is fair enough. Maybe Slavers used to be a YES man :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

I think it's from the Bojo school of reasoning.

He does reasoning?

[Fife-Hibee]

once it becomes clear what independence means scottish people will see the error of their ways and apologize profusely to those who got it right the first time.

Voters will be faced with a choice of english nationalism under many years of majority tory governments while the nhs is sold away piece by piece to us firms or voting for an independent scotland who would be welcomed back into the eu with open arms and maintain open borders with countries that it aligns much closer to politically and economically.

ftfy

[Moulin Yarns]

No once it becomes clear what Independence means Scottish people will vote remain UK.

Voters will be faced with a choice of remaining part of the UK that has deal with the EU or voting for an Independent Scotland that is neither in the UK or the EU then the choice will be fairly simple - remain with the UK.

Where is your evidence for anything like that?

Let's ask the question and see what the answer will be.

61% Independence is more likely (English views)

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-brexit-makes-scottish-independence-more-or-less-likely-english-vie

Do you think Scotland should remain part of the UK, should no longer be part of the UK, or do you not have a view and think it's for the people of Scotland to decide? (English views)

only 42% think so

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-scotland-should-remain-part-of-the-uk-should-no-longer-be-part-of

And that is the English view, people who have no say in the matter, yet 61% think Scotland will be independent.

[J-C]

No once it becomes clear what Independence means Scottish people will vote remain UK.

Voters will be faced with a choice of remaining part of the UK that has deal with the EU or voting for an Independent Scotland that is neither in the UK or the EU then the choice will be fairly simple - remain with the UK.

An Independent Scotland will gain immediate entry to the EU, we've been working away hard in the background making sure a simple process.

[Slavers]

An Independent Scotland will gain immediate entry to the EU, we've been working away hard in the background making sure a simple process.

I don't believe that to be true!

Can you post any evidence to back your claim?

[Peevemor]

I don't believe that to be true!

Can you post any evidence to back your claim?

Not evidence but ...


A senior member of the European Parliament has given a boost to independence supporters by claiming that Scotland’s entry into the EU if it voted to leave the UK would be ‘easy’.


Elmar Brok, a member of Angela Merkel’s CDU party, has been an MEP since 1980 and is seen as one of the foremost authorities on the constitution of the EU.


The former Chair of the parliament’s committe on foreign affairs has claimed that the looming prospect of Brexit could lead many Scots to think again about independence.


Brok told Alex Salmond on Russia Today: “This is one of the nations closest to my heart - this country is so wonderful (and) pro-European and I wish Scotland all the luck for the future and I know that the membership in the European Union is of the utmost importance for the future economic and social development of Scotland.


On an independent Scotland joining the EU, which was a point of contention during the 2014 referendum, Brok told the former First Minister: “If you decide so then it would be then easy to have membership negotiations because Scotland fulfils all the needs for membership, because all the standards are already there, and therefore I am not pushing for dividing the United Kingdom, hopefully the United Kingdom could together be a member together of the European Union but if the United Kingdom goes out of the European Union I can imagine that the Scottish people will think a second time.”


The long-serving politician and former journalist also called Brexit ‘lose-lose’ and said that he believed the chances of a no-deal departure from the EU was becoming more likel

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/senior-mep-says-independent-scotland-could-easily-enter-the-eu-1-4880933

[Cataplana]

An Independent Scotland will gain immediate entry to the EU, we've been working away hard in the background making sure a simple process.

I think we've seen this film before. I fear that nothing short of a written guarantee of entry will be enough to convince the more cautious members of the electorate.

[CloudSquall]

I imagine we could negotiate membership of EFTA during any transition period fairly rapidly as an alternative to EU membership if for whatever reason there were issues surrounding that.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think we've seen this film before. I fear that nothing short of a written guarantee of entry will be enough to convince the more cautious members of the electorate.

Problem is, the EU can't send a written guarantee to the Scottish Parliament directly as it's a devolved administration. They can only send it to Westminster. Which they did when the UK Government pressed them for an answer in 2014, only for the response to be given the McCrone treatment.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't believe that to be true!

Can you post any evidence to back your claim?




Where is your evidence for anything like that?

Let's ask the question and see what the answer will be.

61% Independence is more likely (English views)

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-brexit-makes-scottish-independence-more-or-less-likely-english-vie

Do you think Scotland should remain part of the UK, should no longer be part of the UK, or do you not have a view and think it's for the people of Scotland to decide? (English views)

only 42% think so

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-scotland-should-remain-part-of-the-uk-should-no-longer-be-part-of

And that is the English view, people who have no say in the matter, yet 61% think Scotland will be independent.

I'll show you mine when you show me yours :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

:aok:

Albeit all anecdotal, I hear more and more of these stories. I don't think I've heard a single one of someone going the other way.

Maybe one of our resident posters on the other side of the debate will be along to change that, which is fair enough. Maybe Slavers used to be a YES man :greengrin

According to the latest Panelbase poll that put Indy at 50-50, this is what has happened to 2014 Indyref voters:

Yes voters:

Y->Y - 86%
Y->N - 9%
Y->DK - 5%

No voters:

N->N - 80%
N->Y - 12%
N->DK - 8%

When you factor in that there were 55:45 N:Y, there are roughly 1.5x as many N->Y switchers as Y->N switchers.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm far from an expert but anyone else think Independence is a cert now?

I think if Brexit goes ahead, Independence does too.

Kind of gives me slightly mixed feelings on the whole thing.

No.

I think if we get an agreed ref and Brexit has happened then it's more likely than not, but far from a cert.

[Moulin Yarns]

:aok:

Albeit all anecdotal, I hear more and more of these stories. I don't think I've heard a single one of someone going the other way.

Maybe one of our resident posters on the other side of the debate will be along to change that, which is fair enough. Maybe Slavers used to be a YES man :greengrin

The thing is, the person I was talking to was originally from Buckinghamshire and if I had to bet would have had him as a Conservative voter and he is anti-brexit and turned from No to Yes in the Independence debate. which is a fair leap. :thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

The thing is, the person I was talking to was originally from Buckinghamshire and if I had to bet would have had him as a Conservative voter and he is anti-brexit and turned from No to Yes in the Independence debate. which is a fair leap. :thumbsup:

I think (possibly wishfully) that we will get a few more when Brexit actually happens. Where there's delay there's hope (albeit getting smaller by the day) for Remain. When that hope is finally extinguised some No/Remain people might turn to indy.

[Peevemor]

I think (possibly wishfully) that we will get a few more when Brexit actually happens. Where there's delay there's hope (albeit getting smaller by the day) for Remain. When that hope is finally extinguised some No/Remain people might turn to indy.

It'll be interesting to see if Bojo gets his Queen's Speech through tonight. If he doesn't then a General Election must be a certainty.

[Smartie]

I think (possibly wishfully) that we will get a few more when Brexit actually happens. Where there's delay there's hope (albeit getting smaller by the day) for Remain. When that hope is finally extinguised some No/Remain people might turn to indy.

I think there are a few LibDems there for the taking.

One I know is fervently European and is livid about Brexit. He has always been a devout unionist as well but will be seriously torn when Brexit actually happens. A positive message offering these folk a way back into the EU (whilst glossing over the "tearing apart the UK" message the tabloids will inevitably go for) might be a message that hits home.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think we've seen this film before. I fear that nothing short of a written guarantee of entry will be enough to convince the more cautious members of the electorate.

This time will be different. Last time the EU was reluctant to get involved in the internal affairs of a member state. Next time the UK won't be a member.

[stokesmessiah]

This time will be different. Last time the EU was reluctant to get involved in the internal affairs of a member state. Next time the UK won't be a member.

I think this is an excellent point and one that’s not talked about enough. The EU didn’t want to really get involved in 2014, because they would be seen to be messing in domestic politics. With the U.K. out of EU I think they will be really keen to get Scotland back in.

[Hibbyradge]

I think this is an excellent point and one that’s not talked about enough. The EU didn’t want to really get involved in 2014, because they would be seen to be messing in domestic politics. With the U.K. out of EU I think they will be really keen to get Scotland back in.

The EU still won't want to "get involved", but if they're open to fast tracking Scotland's membership, I think they'll be happy to make that clear once a Yes vote is delivered.

They might give strong hints during or before the campaign, but I doubt they'd openly try to help the UK split up.

[McD]

ftfy



why would or should anyone apologise profusely for voting what they felt was right for them at the time?

[Mibbes Aye]

Not evidence but ...


A senior member of the European Parliament has given a boost to independence supporters by claiming that Scotland’s entry into the EU if it voted to leave the UK would be ‘easy’.


Elmar Brok, a member of Angela Merkel’s CDU party, has been an MEP since 1980 and is seen as one of the foremost authorities on the constitution of the EU.


The former Chair of the parliament’s committe on foreign affairs has claimed that the looming prospect of Brexit could lead many Scots to think again about independence.


Brok told Alex Salmond on Russia Today: “This is one of the nations closest to my heart - this country is so wonderful (and) pro-European and I wish Scotland all the luck for the future and I know that the membership in the European Union is of the utmost importance for the future economic and social development of Scotland.


On an independent Scotland joining the EU, which was a point of contention during the 2014 referendum, Brok told the former First Minister: “If you decide so then it would be then easy to have membership negotiations because Scotland fulfils all the needs for membership, because all the standards are already there, and therefore I am not pushing for dividing the United Kingdom, hopefully the United Kingdom could together be a member together of the European Union but if the United Kingdom goes out of the European Union I can imagine that the Scottish people will think a second time.”


The long-serving politician and former journalist also called Brexit ‘lose-lose’ and said that he believed the chances of a no-deal departure from the EU was becoming more likel

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/senior-mep-says-independent-scotland-could-easily-enter-the-eu-1-4880933

If the U.K. was to leave the EU and if Scotland was to leave the U.K. then I would desperately hope Scotland joined the EU. But come on Peevemor, she didn’t say entry to the EU would be easy, the quote you posted was she said engaging in negotiations would be easy, which is what anyone would expect.

I think if the U.K. does crash out of the EU then it really is incumbent on the nationalist side to be crystal clear about what the process of joining the EU would look like and what it would mean for fiscal and economic policy, as well as business, trade etc etc.

That would go a long way to persuading a tranche of soft ‘No’ voters.

I’m also not sure quoting from an interview with Alex Salmond on Russia Today helps matters at this point in time :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

If the U.K. was to leave the EU and if Scotland was to leave the U.K. then I would desperately hope Scotland joined the EU. But come on Peevemor, she didn’t say entry to the EU would be easy, the quote you posted was she said engaging in negotiations would be easy, which is what anyone would expect.

I think if the U.K. does crash out of the EU then it really is incumbent on the nationalist side to be crystal clear about what the process of joining the EU would look like and what it would mean for fiscal and economic policy, as well as business, trade etc etc.

That would go a long way to persuading a tranche of soft ‘No’ voters.

I’m also not sure quoting from an interview with Alex Salmond on Russia Today helps matters at this point in time :greengrin

Elmar Brok is a bloke :-)

[JeMeSouviens]

Here he is saying there wouldn’t be much to negotiate:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQzm0FXXerM

[Mibbes Aye]

Elmar Brok is a bloke :-)

My bad. Like Jo Swinson, I just assume everyone important isn’t necessarily a white man :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Here he is saying there wouldn’t be much to negotiate:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQzm0FXXerM

Cheers.

Have to say, he does look like Rod Petrie after the Christmas night out, where he was part of the handful that decided to kick the arse out of it and stay out until the 5am pubs opened :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Cheers.

Have to say, he does look like Rod Petrie after the Christmas night out, where he was part of the handful that decided to kick the arse out of it and stay out until the 5am pubs opened :greengrin

Lolz. What’s German for exuberance?

[Hibrandenburg]

Here he is saying there wouldn’t be much to negotiate:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQzm0FXXerM

Her reaction shows how gutted she was at not getting the answer she'd hoped for.

[Cataplana]

Her reaction shows how gutted she was at not getting the answer she'd hoped for.

Swift change of tack. She wasn't giving him the chance to say it twice.

[The Harp Awakes]

Her reaction shows how gutted she was at not getting the answer she'd hoped for.

Very noticeable how gutted she was by the answer. Easy passage to the EU post independence is clearly not what she wanted to hear.

We better get used to it though. It will be rerun and more of 2014 in terms of media bias.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIYlT6LXYAEZX1F?format=jpg&name=small

[stoneyburn hibs]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIYlT6LXYAEZX1F?format=jpg&name=small

Ha ! Brilliant.

[CloudSquall]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIYlT6LXYAEZX1F?format=jpg&name=small


But...but....but....WE SAID NOOOOOOOO :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

But...but....but....WE SAID NOOOOOOOO :greengrin

But....but, once in a generation.

I’m also waiting to find Johnson dead in his ditch.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

But....but, once in a generation.

I’m also waiting to find Johnson dead in his ditch.

J

It was taken completely out of context though.....

https://i.ibb.co/9qNywL6/idratherbedeadinaditch.gif

[marinello59]

It was taken completely out of context though.....

https://i.ibb.co/9qNywL6/idratherbedeadinaditch.gif

The once in a generation line was said by Salmond expressing his own personal opinion and was never said by any member of the Scottish Government in an official capacity. To suggest that the Scottish people were told that the referundum was a once in a generation thing before voting is a lie.

[Fife-Hibee]

The once in a generation line was said by Salmond expressing his own personal opinion and was never said by any member of the Scottish Government in an official capacity. To suggest that the Scottish people were told that the referundum was a once in a generation thing before voting is a lie.

:agree:

All that matters is what was written into the Edinburgh Agreement (which shouldn't even stand imo) and there is absolutely no mention of "once in a generation" in there.

If there had of been anything of the sort written into the agreement, it would have been an absolute figure like 20 or 30 years. Not "generation" which of course is always open to interpretation over how long that would actually be.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think some people may take offence 🤔😉


Barnett Formula explanation for unionists, and their sycophants in Scotland.

I have £10

My next door neighbour takes it.

He gives me back £4 for myself.

He tells me I owe him a further £20 for a new lawn mower he bought for both of us.

I don’t have a garden!