Scottish Independence

[Fife-Hibee]

What is it specifically you’re looking for? Genuine question. A few pages back I made a stab at the kind of things I’d look for in each parties manifestos. It would be just as easy to find articles that support the economic case for independence as there are finding articles that challenge the economic case.

I’m no economist, and there are lots of posters more knowledgeable of economics and politics than me. Much like Brexit, with so many unknown variables and things that have still to be negotiated, I don’t see how anyone from either side can talk in economic absolutes and thus conclusively probe the argument either way just now.

That's correct. There are no economic absolutes. The Scottish Government can't say how the economic outlook will be for an independent Scotland 5 years down the line anymore than the UK Government can say what their economic outlook for the UK economy will look like 5 years down the line.

Unionists know this. They know they're demanding very specific answers to questions where there can't possibly be any specific answers. All they've got left is the hope that they can generate enough uncertainty over the economic outlook of an independent Scotland to put people off. Despite the economic outlook of the UK being equally as uncertain.

[RyeSloan]

That's correct. There are no economic absolutes. The Scottish Government can't say how the economic outlook will be for an independent Scotland 5 years down the line anymore than the UK Government can say what their economic outlook for the UK economy will look like 5 years down the line.

Unionists know this. They know they're demanding very specific answers to questions where there can't possibly be any specific answers. All they've got left is the hope that they can generate enough uncertainty over the economic outlook of an independent Scotland to put people off. Despite the economic outlook of the UK being equally as uncertain.

Yet come to Brexit and it’s the complete opposite....almost universal certainty on here at the economic impact and used repeatedly to further Indy.

And also with Brexit there has been widespread support on here for a second ref or even calling it off ‘now that we know more about it’....I would wager there will be rather less Indy supporters that would be so keen to bake such a vote into any Indy vote / process up here.

There is a certain duplicity in some people’s positions regarding such things and it could very much be argued that, if the Brexit debacle has shown us anything, then it’s a much firmer and clearer path of ‘what does it actually mean’ is required up front for people to make an informed decision when being asked to vote Yes / No or Leave / Remain.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yet come to Brexit and it’s the complete opposite....almost universal certainty on here at the economic impact and used repeatedly to further Indy.

And also with Brexit there has been widespread support on here for a second ref or even calling it off ‘now that we know more about it’....I would wager there will be rather less Indy supporters that would be so keen to bake such a vote into any Indy vote / process up here.

There is a certain duplicity in some people’s positions regarding such things and it could very much be argued that, if the Brexit debacle has shown us anything, then it’s a much firmer and clearer path of ‘what does it actually mean’ is required up front for people to make an informed decision when being asked to vote Yes / No or Leave / Remain.

Then by all means, ask sensible questions that can realistically be answered at this time. Demanding answers to questions that can't possibly be answered pre-negotiations with rUK is a poor tactic. People will ultimately see straight through it.

[ronaldo7]

Has he answered yet?

My guess is that he covered something about finance and missed the rest.

[James310]

Yet come to Brexit and it’s the complete opposite....almost universal certainty on here at the economic impact and used repeatedly to further Indy.

And also with Brexit there has been widespread support on here for a second ref or even calling it off ‘now that we know more about it’....I would wager there will be rather less Indy supporters that would be so keen to bake such a vote into any Indy vote / process up here.

There is a certain duplicity in some people’s positions regarding such things and it could very much be argued that, if the Brexit debacle has shown us anything, then it’s a much firmer and clearer path of ‘what does it actually mean’ is required up front for people to make an informed decision when being asked to vote Yes / No or Leave / Remain.

I wonder if the SNP would consider a second confirmatory vote for Independence if the first vote was Yes. So a vote for Yes would mean a 2 year negotiating period and at the end of the 2 years we have another Yes or No vote based on what is on offer.

They support another referendum on Brexit so it would be hypocritical to say no. I am sure if they took this position the first vote would swing to Yes as people would want to see what is on offer and what's the deal.

Would drive out that detail people want.

[The Modfather]

I wonder if the SNP would consider a second confirmatory vote for Independence if the first vote was Yes. So a vote for Yes would mean a 2 year negotiating period and at the end of the 2 years we have another Yes or No vote based on what is on offer.

They support another referendum on Brexit so it would be hypocritical to say no. I am sure if they took this position the first vote would swing to Yes as people would want to see what is on offer and what's the deal.

I think it’s fair to look at Brexit and ask should we learn the lesson and have a further vote on the deal. The difficulty with that is that it can’t be denied it would then be in the UK’s best interest to make the negotiations as difficult as possible and effectively aim for a no deal type scenario to take to a second vote. Without a second vote it’s surely in everyone’s best interests for as amicable a split as possible given we will still have close ties and will still want to trade with each other.

[James310]

So "I won't be replying" is now deemed and adequate response as far as you're concerned while at the same time you hound others for a response to the questions you ask?

It's the sort of crap we got from Boris during the non-debates for the Tory leadership!

Answer the question.

The poster stated we could be richer than Ireland in 5 years and I asked how, a perfectly reasonable request? I was then presented with some facts and figures, that's all they are facts and figures, no actual plan on how to go from A to B to make us 'richer' than Ireland in a 5 year timescale.

The poster in question has suggested we copy Ireands low tax and low regulation model, which ironically is being challenged in courts by the EU and is therefore not sustainable and likely to be declared illegal, so that's not going to happen. It has also been suggested that reliance on such a low number of multi national companies for tax revenues is a dangerous game to play, any sniff of lower tax elsewhere and they walk leaving a massive hole in the public finances. We have also established that it is very difficult to compare Scotland and Ireland economically as the countries are very different due to tax regimes, so lots of claims about how we can be Ireland but very little to back it up.

Could we be richer than Ireland? Possibly, maybe, maybe not.

Point of original query was me questioning how that would happen in a 5 year timescale and I've yet to see anything of substance other than a massive list of facts and figures (of which financial services was one which is one industry that is very likely to immediately decline upon Independence for reasons given on another post)

Question answered.

We also seem to be moving towards measuring our well being as a way to measure how 'rich' we are, so GDP comparisons may become a thing of the past.

[Smartie]

I’m not sure what I was looking for though I think I am looking for something now, if that makes sense.

I’m not a nationalist, nor a unionist and explained what I feel would be best a few times but acknowledge that it is a difficult goal to achieve.

What struck me tonight is that there are many independence supporters on here or nationalists or separatists, whatever you want to call them or yourselves.

The conversations tend to be very much an onslaught against the one or two obvious unionists and I understand it is a very emotional thing for a lot of people.

But as a relatively dispassionate observer it struck me that there is no real sense of what Scotland looks like, should leaving the union happen. I’ve read countless posts saying that will be a matter for future elections and the SNP won’t need to exist and so on, but I don’t find that good enough.

I would like to see some proper debate about economic and fiscal policy in a post-Union Scotland and I would probably contribute myself. It would affect me and my children after all!

At the moment it seems to be ‘independence at any or all costs’ for many but this thread shows there are Indies who want much lower regulation and taxation and some who see the potential for a higher taxing state that spends more on social welfare.

I think an honest conversation about those differences is critical. It might even help swing some of that soft No vote, as I strongly suspect this was one of the major issues for many of them.


I would like to see that.

The difficulty we have is that some of the people who stand to potentially contribute the most - Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish Liberal Democrats - are all against independence and like James310 are hesitant to provide a detailed and coherent vision for something they don't believe in (a position that isn't unreasonable) and would prefer to argue against.

That leaves the SNP and the greens providing the sole vision for the future instead of having a few to imagine. I think the SNP made a pig's ear of the proposal in the last referendum and it hasn't aged well. The reliance on volatile oil etc, being given the runaround on currency and the EU membership situation undermined their proposal in a big way.

So whilst I would like to see what you would like to see, it isn't really possible. You almost need to take the leap of faith - look at the list of natural resources mentioned a few posts up and decide whether you fancy Boris, his very right-wing government, and Brexit to give Scotland the best possible future using those resources, or whether you think there might be another way. It is unavoidable that we'd have to start with an SNP led government, a largely left of centre one, but after that it would be anyone's guess. I'd like to think (and see) that the current main parties would evolve into the various options. I'd like to see Ruth Davidson lead a centre right party and put her case over. I'd like some loonies on the fringes that we might listen to but opt against actually voting in (the types of loonies who are in charge of the main parties at Westminster right now). There should probably be a unionist angle, arguing for reuniting us with our chums down South. The public can then decide who we want to govern us, and I think the SNP would quite quickly disappear. In all likelihood Scotland would drift towards an evolution of the Scottish Labour Party, a centre left party that appeals to the Scottish electorate but that still needs to be business savvy enough to pay the bills - a party that the vast majority of Scots would ideologically be quite happy with and are unlikely to get at Westminster any time soon.

Surely it is reasonable for people within the "independence movement" to have different visions of what independence might bring, same as "unionists" are unlikely to all be united behind Boris?

[Ozyhibby]

I think it’s fair to look at Brexit and ask should we learn the lesson and have a further vote on the deal. The difficulty with that is that it can’t be denied it would then be in the UK’s best interest to make the negotiations as difficult as possible and effectively aim for a no deal type scenario to take to a second vote. Without a second vote it’s surely in everyone’s best interests for as amicable a split as possible given we will still have close ties and will still want to trade with each other.

There will be no trading relationship issues after an indyref because we will be joining the EU. Those negotiations will be done already between UK and EU.


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[Ozyhibby]

The poster stated we could be richer than Ireland in 5 years and I asked how, a perfectly reasonable request? I was then presented with some facts and figures, that's all they are facts and figures, no actual plan on how to go from A to B to make us 'richer' than Ireland in a 5 year timescale.

The poster in question has suggested we copy Ireands low tax and low regulation model, which ironically is being challenged in courts by the EU and is therefore not sustainable and likely to be declared illegal, so that's not going to happen. It has also been suggested that reliance on such a low number of multi national companies for tax revenues is a dangerous game to play, any sniff of lower tax elsewhere and they walk leaving a massive hole in the public finances. We have also established that it is very difficult to compare Scotland and Ireland economically as the countries are very different due to tax regimes, so lots of claims about how we can be Ireland but very little to back it up.

Could we be richer than Ireland? Possibly, maybe, maybe not.

Point of original query was me questioning how that would happen in a 5 year timescale and I've yet to see anything of substance other than a massive list of facts and figures (of which financial services was one which is one industry that is very likely to immediately decline upon Independence for reasons given on another post)

Question answered.

We also seem to be moving towards measuring our well being as a way to measure how 'rich' we are, so GDP comparisons may become a thing of the past.

My point in mentioning Ireland is that it is always, and I mean always, stated by unionists that an independent Scotland will be poorer. And here is Ireland right next door, similar size, similar population and it is already richer than Scotland. So why is Scotland different from Ireland that we can’t be independent and prosperous? What make us different from Ireland?


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[JeMeSouviens]

My point in mentioning Ireland is that it is always, and I mean always, stated by unionists that an independent Scotland will be poorer. And here is Ireland right next door, similar size, similar population and it is already richer than Scotland. So why is Scotland different from Ireland that we can’t be independent and prosperous? What make us different from Ireland?


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or Denmark or Finland or Norway or Switzerland or New Zealand or ...

[makaveli1875]

My point in mentioning Ireland is that it is always, and I mean always, stated by unionists that an independent Scotland will be poorer. And here is Ireland right next door, similar size, similar population and it is already richer than Scotland. So why is Scotland different from Ireland that we can’t be independent and prosperous? What make us different from Ireland?


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Id love to see some data about Irelands riches over Scotland , since you mention it every post . Exactly how rich is Ireland ?

[southsider]

Financial Services is actually a sector I could see growing if we were to become independent and within the EU, Edinburgh with it's reputation as a financial hub could attract further investment as a base for companies especially from the English speaking world looking to enter or expand in the EU market.

Ireland of course has benefited tremendously from this type of foreign investment but it has had very low tax rates which I don't think the majority in Scotland want to follow.
Perhaps we should. A 7bill FS industry pays over 1.3bill to the treasury. An independent Scotland could slash Corporation tax to 10 percent and the additional investment would make up for the shortfall and more. This extra cash could be spent on Health Benefits. Everyone wins.

[Andy Bee]

Scotland would tend to be in chronic surplus to a
quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in
Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner. Just as deposed
monarchs and African leaders have in the past used the Swiss franc as a
haven of security, so now would the Scottish pound be seen as a good hedge
against inflation and devaluation and the Scottish banks could expect to find
themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds.

[Ozyhibby]

Id love to see some data about Irelands riches over Scotland , since you mention it every post . Exactly how rich is Ireland ?

Who knows how accurate these figures are?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/24e51ad2f8f74afbd06098203820283b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/93dbb77af7791f2aa5a01aa6e8c7afc8.jpg


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[makaveli1875]

Who knows how accurate these figures are?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/24e51ad2f8f74afbd06098203820283b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190731/93dbb77af7791f2aa5a01aa6e8c7afc8.jpg


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Interesting , The GDP per capita has Ireland above America , China , Japan and Germany and Saudi Arabia though so guess it cant tell the whole story

[allmodcons]

I appreciate that there's more to a country's perceived wealth than GDP per capita but it's amazing how well smaller countries perform.

http://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php (http://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php)

Scotland's GDP per capita is impossible to calculate but, as part of the great Union, we are well behind a number of small countries including Ireland which, incidentally, has a lot less natural resources than Scotland.

[Glory Lurker]

If financial services offices in Scotland are able to continue providing services to customers in rUK, why would they move?

[Fife-Hibee]

Nicola Sturgeon and why GDP isn't everything. - https://www.ted.com/talks/nicola_sturgeon_why_governments_should_prioritize_ well_being/discussion?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare&fbclid=IwAR1ZapJz1YG_ZO8KiMeF7SDnBWf3qSBQT85x7RvB8 ICO1_LgCMP8wZvLTgo

[marinello59]

Nicola Sturgeon and why GDP isn't everything. - https://www.ted.com/talks/nicola_sturgeon_why_governments_should_prioritize_ well_being/discussion?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare&fbclid=IwAR1ZapJz1YG_ZO8KiMeF7SDnBWf3qSBQT85x7RvB8 ICO1_LgCMP8wZvLTgo

It’s an excellent speech. She will probably be accused by some of pointing out the bleeding obvious but she really isn’t, far too often politicians lose sight of what the real measure of their success should be, a contented population.
Sturgeon is very good at setting the tone of what our country should be, the importance of that should never be underestimated.

[James310]

Nicola Sturgeon and why GDP isn't everything. - https://www.ted.com/talks/nicola_sturgeon_why_governments_should_prioritize_ well_being/discussion?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare&fbclid=IwAR1ZapJz1YG_ZO8KiMeF7SDnBWf3qSBQT85x7RvB8 ICO1_LgCMP8wZvLTgo

Suggested by David Cameron back in 2010.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/14/david-cameron-wellbeing-inquiry

[marinello59]

Suggested by David Cameron back in 2010.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/14/david-cameron-wellbeing-inquiry

And he went on to become the man who brought us to where we are today. His actions didn’t back up his words did they?
When a Tory speaks about well-being they mean their party, not the country. That proved to be Cameron’s main concern.

[Fife-Hibee]

And he went on to become the man who brought us to where we are today. His actions didn’t back up his words did they?
When a Tory speaks about well-being they mean their party, not the country. That proved to be Cameron’s main concern.

Yep and here's why... (From Boris Johnson's own senior political advisor) - https://twitter.com/i/status/1156439355952701441

[Hibrandenburg]

That sounds entirely reasonable :greengrin

My mate lied and my head is mush, even my worst ever round of golf couldn't clear it. :greengrin

I think a few posters have already answered your question in the meantime, I'd just add that I think Scotland would take a lurch to the left immediately after independence. Our voting history would suggest that the electorate would demand a social democratic approach to taxation and market regulation. Our infrastructure (especially transport) needs a complete overhaul, compared to similar sized small northern democracies we are way behind. This has been the case for decades but it has slightly improved since devolution. Regarding FS policy, the white paper from 2014 is not far off the mark, with a few tweaks and updates it would be a decent basis to work from. Ultimately your question will only be fully answered when the people of Scotland get to decide for themselves how we move forward.

[Ozyhibby]

My mate lied and my head is mush, even my worst ever round of golf couldn't clear it. :greengrin

I think a few posters have already answered your question in the meantime, I'd just add that I think Scotland would take a lurch to the left immediately after independence. Our voting history would suggest that the electorate would demand a social democratic approach to taxation and market regulation. Our infrastructure (especially transport) needs a complete overhaul, compared to similar sized small northern democracies we are way behind. This has been the case for decades but it has slightly improved since devolution. Regarding FS policy, the white paper from 2014 is not far off the mark, with a few tweaks and updates it would be a decent basis to work from. Ultimately your question will only be fully answered when the people of Scotland get to decide for themselves how we move forward.

Infrastructure will always lack behind in Scotland and the north of England because the way the treasury allocated money for infrastructure projects is based on the return on investment which is always higher down south.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Infrastructure will always lack behind in Scotland and the north of England because the way the treasury allocated money for infrastructure projects is based on the return on investment which is always higher down south.


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:agree:

[southsider]

:agree:
Did anyone watch the show on Channei 4 at 9pm on Social Housing ? The Thatcher right to buy has been a disaster. Edinburg needs to build 10.000 Council homes a year. What about the amazing social homes in Vienna ? Amazing ! We could do a similar project here . If people had homes like that maybe we could turn around the drugs epidemic.

[marinello59]

Did anyone watch the show on Channei 4 at 9pm on Social Housing ? The Thatcher right to buy has been a disaster. Edinburg needs to build 10.000 Council homes a year. What about the amazing social homes in Vienna ? Amazing ! We could do a similar project here . If people had homes like that maybe we could turn around the drugs epidemic.

Right to buy was a disastrous policy but hugely popular. Many people who claim to hate the Tories in Scotland took full advantage.

[Hibrandenburg]

Right to buy was a disastrous policy but hugely popular. Many people who claim to hate the Tories in Scotland took full advantage.

I hate Hitler but still enjoy driving on the Autobahn. :greengrin

[marinello59]

I hate Hitler but still enjoy driving on the Autobahn. :greengrin

I have no comeback to that. Damn. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I have no comeback to that. Damn. :greengrin

Acceptance of defeat is a very admirable but rare quality on here. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Allowing ordinary people the chance to own property is a great thing. The problem with right to buy was not allowing councils to build more. The councils were usually pretty poor landlords as well.


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[lord bunberry]

Right to buy was a disastrous policy but hugely popular. Many people who claim to hate the Tories in Scotland took full advantage.
That’s true, but it wasn’t the right to buy policy that was a disaster, it was the fact that the proceeds didn’t go to building more social housing. A good idea that could’ve really benefited the less well off was completely wasted.

[Fife-Hibee]

Scotland now odds on at 8/11 to vote YES to independence in a referendum according to the bookies.
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/next-independence-referendum-result

Shame there's no demand. :wink:

[Smartie]

Scotland now odds on at 8/11 to vote YES to independence in a referendum according to the bookies.
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/next-independence-referendum-result

Shame there's no demand. :wink:

Whilst I'm on the same side as you when it comes to independence, one of the four bookies on the link are odds on to say YES to independence. The other 3 offering a market are still against, one of them at 6/4.

Quite incredible differences, and possibly some cash to be made.......

[southsider]

That’s true, but it wasn’t the right to buy policy that was a disaster, it was the fact that the proceeds didn’t go to building more social housing. A good idea that could’ve really benefited the less well off was completely wasted.
They were not Thatchers to sell. These houses were paid for by the taxpayers (including an American loan) and were public property. All the good stock was solid off leaving the damp, the hard to heat and the problem area's. Last night's TV programme on Social Housing in Vienna was a real eye opener. Social Housing there is bteathtaking and the Council owned homes for rent we by far better than privately owned.

[lord bunberry]

They were not Thatchers to sell. These houses were paid for by the taxpayers (including an American loan) and were public property. All the good stock was solid off leaving the damp, the hard to heat and the problem area's. Last night's TV programme on Social Housing in Vienna was a real eye opener. Social Housing there is bteathtaking and the Council owned homes for rent we by far better than privately owned.
If the money had been spent on new houses the damp and hard to heat houses could’ve been replaced with the sort of housing you talk about in Vienna. Instead it was squandered and were left with a shortage and a stigma attached to social housing because they’re mostly in areas that people don’t want to live.

[marinello59]

That’s true, but it wasn’t the right to buy policy that was a disaster, it was the fact that the proceeds didn’t go to building more social housing. A good idea that could’ve really benefited the less well off was completely wasted.

The policy was designed to reduce the amount of state housing. The councils only received half of the proceeds and they were only allowed to spend any of it on new housing if they had cleared their debts, effectively stopping them from doing so. That was the idea.

[lord bunberry]

The policy was designed to reduce the amount of state housing. The councils only received half of the proceeds and they were only allowed to spend any of it on new housing if they had cleared their debts, effectively stopping them from doing so. That was the idea.
A chance wasted then. What could’ve improved the lives of many has made their lives worse.

[southsider]

The policy was designed to reduce the amount of state housing. The councils only received half of the proceeds and they were only allowed to spend any of it on new housing if they had cleared their debts, effectively stopping them from doing so. That was the idea.
The point, imho, was to reduce the Labour voting schemes. The current PM certainly has the same attitude. He was known as Alexander at Etoni and reinvented himself as bumbling Boris. He is now PM and Trump in the White House. God help us.

[Just Alf]

My mate lied and my head is mush, even my worst ever round of golf couldn't clear it. :greengrin

I think a few posters have already answered your question in the meantime, I'd just add that I think Scotland would take a lurch to the left immediately after independence. Our voting history would suggest that the electorate would demand a social democratic approach to taxation and market regulation. Our infrastructure (especially transport) needs a complete overhaul, compared to similar sized small northern democracies we are way behind. This has been the case for decades but it has slightly improved since devolution. Regarding FS policy, the white paper from 2014 is not far off the mark, with a few tweaks and updates it would be a decent basis to work from. Ultimately your question will only be fully answered when the people of Scotland get to decide for themselves how we move forward.
Infrastructure will always lack behind in Scotland and the north of England because the way the treasury allocated money for infrastructure projects is based on the return on investment which is always higher down south.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIn a way, this is the argument for independence in two posts.

From a UK perspective the ROI is better the closer to London you go.

Devolution has moved it a bit towards Edinburgh/Glasgow from a Scottish perspective, independence would move it wholesale.

And in a nod to MA, I also think if the English NE, Yorkshire etc were to get some form of devolution then they would hopefully improve similarly also.



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[WeeRussell]

My mate lied and my head is mush, even my worst ever round of golf couldn't clear it. :greengrin

I think a few posters have already answered your question in the meantime, I'd just add that I think Scotland would take a lurch to the left immediately after independence. Our voting history would suggest that the electorate would demand a social democratic approach to taxation and market regulation. Our infrastructure (especially transport) needs a complete overhaul, compared to similar sized small northern democracies we are way behind. This has been the case for decades but it has slightly improved since devolution. Regarding FS policy, the white paper from 2014 is not far off the mark, with a few tweaks and updates it would be a decent basis to work from. Ultimately your question will only be fully answered when the people of Scotland get to decide for themselves how we move forward.

(One step at a time but) here's hoping :agree:

[CloudSquall]

https://www.ft.com/content/04579306-b510-11e9-8cb2-799a3a8cf37b

The strength of the British Pound Stering in action :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

The libs in Scotland outing themselves as hard brexiteers.

https://i.ibb.co/0D66jNc/trtr.png

[Hibrandenburg]

The libs in Scotland outing themselves as hard brexiteers.

https://i.ibb.co/0D66jNc/trtr.png

If anything, it only proves they're hard unionists.

[Fife-Hibee]

If anything, it only proves they're hard unionists.

I wonder where "liberal" and "democrat" fit into their stance.

[CloudSquall]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/04/tory-candidate-says-english-taxpayers-fleeced-by-scotland


Every day it is becoming more and more cringeworthy seeing the desperation of unionists trying to defend the union when this is the typical view south of the border.

[lapsedhibee]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/04/tory-candidate-says-english-taxpayers-fleeced-by-scotland


Every day it is becoming more and more cringeworthy seeing the desperation of unionists trying to defend the union when this is the typical view south of the border.

"Henson said the article had been intended as satire."

The standard Tory response now to being called out for spouting lies and other forms of pish.

[NAE NOOKIE]

"Henson said the article had been intended as satire."

The standard Tory response now to being called out for spouting lies and other forms of pish.

There seems to be quite a lot of Tories around at the moment who have had past lives as satirists.

[Fife-Hibee]

Funny how they accused Scotland of "fleecing them" in past times but are now doing the biggest u-turns as it dawns on them that Scotland will more than likely be leaving sometime soon.

It's almost as if they knew they were lying the whole time.

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html

Interesting!

[Mon Dieu4]

The fact that Boris and Co are putting £1b into the English NHS while Scotland, Wales and NI are sharing £300m between them says it all, they only care about people that will potentially vote for them, time to get out

[Callum_62]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html

Interesting!Coming from the source it does - very interesting

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html

Interesting!

People are being persuaded now by their own economic self interest. Once you win that argument it becomes a lot easier. Emotionally the vast majority of people feel more Scottish than British but in 2014 worried about things they may lose. Now there is no status quo option they are slowly moving towards the Yes camp. If the Tories can keep denying a vote, that will help build support as well.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html

Interesting!

52-48, isn't that decisive! :wink:

The shifts since 2014 are interesting. 11% of Y->N but 18% of N->Y.

He doesn't seem to have included 16/17 year olds, who usually add 1-2% for Yes to the total.

The EU ref polling is 67 R 33 L, suggesting Scotland is even more Remainy since 2016.


Oldies are still the biggest problem for Yes: 67% of over 65s would vote No.

[JeMeSouviens]

The fact that Boris and Co are putting £1b into the English NHS while Scotland, Wales and NI are sharing £300m between them says it all, they only care about people that will potentially vote for them, time to get out

He doesn't actually get to choose how much non-England gets. It's an automatic process of the Barnett Formula. If he spends £10 in England, Scotland gets £1.03 and Wales gets 59p.

I actually don't even think Tories generally care about most of their own voters in the sense that they want to make their lives better. It's all about protecting the most powerful and privileged.

[heretoday]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.
Things may turn out OK.
I realise that doesn't suit the rabid nationalist lobby.

[Ozyhibby]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.
Things may turn out OK.
I realise that doesn't suit the rabid nationalist lobby.

If we leave with no deal then the easiest way back in for Scotland is independence.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.
Things may turn out OK.
I realise that doesn't suit the rabid nationalist lobby.

I agree with your point about any single politician, no matter how much of an areshole. But the Tory party is well and truly in the grip of the right wing now and the signs are they will become the new Brexit party. If they can squeeze out Farage and consolidate a Brexity 40% of the vote then that's all they need under FPTP to govern for a long time.

[Onceinawhile]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.
Things may turn out OK.
I realise that doesn't suit the rabid nationalist lobby.

It isn't just Boris though, it was May before him and Cameron before her. As a general rule, very Conservative MPs are elected in Scotland (the most recent election of course being an exception, though still not anywhere near a large amount). When you get 10-12 years of a party in power for whom you don't vote, it can make you question whether the union is a sensible thing and if your part of it is aligned with the rest of it.

I think the EU ref put this fact even more front and centre.

[CloudSquall]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html

Interesting!

What is also interesting is it seems a large number of No voters have already accepted that they won't be on the winning side next time around.

I haven't seen that level of "broken" since we broke Rangers in 2016 :greengrin

[makaveli1875]

What is also interesting is it seems a large number of No voters have already accepted that they won't be on the winning side next time around.

I haven't seen that level of "broken" since we broke Rangers in 2016 :greengrin

No will win every time. Don't build the hopes up too much, I'd hate to see the blue facepaint ruined by all the tears again like 2014 :greengrin

[SHODAN]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.

That's true, won't be long until he's followed by Farage or Rees-Mogg.

[lapsedhibee]

That's true, won't be long until he's followed by Farage or Rees-Mogg.
:tsk tsk: Rees-Mogg Esq.

[CloudSquall]

Looking at the Tartan Army messageboard and read the below from the poll,

"
58% of 18-49 year olds would vote Yes, 29% would vote No, 13% are DK/WNV
36% of over 50s would vote Yes, 54% would vote No, 10% are DK/WNV - 50-65 is much closer, it is the over 65s that is where the real opposition lies.
"



29% from 18-49 age group voting no, it's only a matter of time...

[Hibbyradge]

Looking at the Tartan Army messageboard and read the below from the poll,

"
58% of 18-49 year olds would vote Yes, 29% would vote No, 13% are DK/WNV
36% of over 50s would vote Yes, 54% would vote No, 10% are DK/WNV - 50-65 is much closer, it is the over 65s that is where the real opposition lies.
"



29% from 18-49 age group voting no, it's only a matter of time...


Presumably there would be an even bigger % of 16+17 year olds voting yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

:tsk tsk: Rees-Mogg Esq.

:cb The Right Honourable Jacob William Rees-Mogg MP Esq.

[Fife-Hibee]

It seems a little flaky to cut and run just because of Boris.
He won't be around for long.
Things may turn out OK.
I realise that doesn't suit the rabid nationalist lobby.

You think this is all about one person?

OK isn't good enough, but we can't even hope for that anymore.

[JeMeSouviens]

Been looking into Ashcroft polls a wee bit. He does seem to do things reasonably by the book and in fact uses the regular pollsters, Yougov, Survation etc to do his fieldwork.

But a wee note of caution - I can't find a prior poll by his Lordship on indy so it is possible he just has a Yes friendly methodology. And of course the Yes lead shown is within the sampling margin of error for a roughly 1000 respondents poll.

Still, it's a hopeful sign.

[Fife-Hibee]

Been looking into Ashcroft polls a wee bit. He does seem to do things reasonably by the book and in fact uses the regular pollsters, Yougov, Survation etc to do his fieldwork.

But a wee note of caution - I can't find a prior poll by his Lordship on indy so it is possible he just has a Yes friendly methodology. And of course the Yes lead shown is within the sampling margin of error for a roughly 1000 respondents poll.

Still, it's a hopeful sign.

Keep in mind that the poll doesn't include 16-17 year olds or EU nationals. That's another few percentage points at least. Increasing the margin of error in favour of NO.

[Callum_62]

This reported on BBC yet? [emoji848]

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[Fife-Hibee]

This reported on BBC yet? [emoji848]

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They haven't got the memo yet it seems. They are rambling on about how a no-deal brexit can't actually be stopped though.

[CloudSquall]

This reported on BBC yet? [emoji848]

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It's taking longer than usual to come up with the "Blow to Sturgeon" angle on this one.


Regarding the poll I saw an interesting pick up from the poll that the support for independence is quite evenily spread across all social classes, if I remember correctly in the run up to the referendum it was more concentrated in the working class / lower middle class, possible Brexit has made it more favourable to the richer classes.

[Smartie]

It's taking longer than usual to come up with the "Blow to Sturgeon" angle on this one.


Regarding the poll I saw an interesting pick up from the poll that the support for independence is quite evenily spread across all social classes, if I remember correctly in the run up to the referendum it was more concentrated in the working class / lower middle class, possible Brexit has made it more favourable to the richer classes.

As Brexit has started to take its toll I have had people who are devout unionists say to me that depending on how much of a disaster Brexit is, they'd be prepared to consider independence again.

The last people in the world I'd expect to be saying that, but it's amazing what the threat of being a bit poorer will do to people.

[CloudSquall]

As Brexit has started to take its toll I have had people who are devout unionists say to me that depending on how much of a disaster is, they'd be prepared to consider independence again.

The last people in the world I'd expect to be saying that, but it's amazing what the threat of being a bit poorer will do to people.


The "I'm alright jacks" are suddenly not very "alright" :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

People need persuaded for many reasons, no point in mocking them.
Biggest group that need persuaded is the over 65’s. They need convinced that their pensions and houses will be safe.


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[Hibbyradge]

People need persuaded for many reasons, no point in mocking them.
Biggest group that need persuaded is the over 65’s. They need convinced that their pensions and houses will be safe.


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Indeed. It's an understandable concern and most certainly not one to be dismissed it, worse still, mocked.

I don't know how a no deal Brexit will affect pensions, but there may be an opportunity to argue that pensions will improve in an Indy/ EU Scotland.

House prices are most likely going to drop after Brexit so that may be another lever to use.

[The Modfather]

I think the no side have a job on their hands to win a second referendum. Project fear alone won’t be enough given there’s no status quo anymore and it’s independence v post Brexit.

We’ve seen it on here already with posters refusing to put a positive case forward for the union as they aren’t proposing change. I think Brexit will be the game changer as the debate will ask as many questions of the remain side and their uncertainties as will be asked about independence

[Smartie]

Do you become more likely to vote "no" as you get older, or would our over 65s just have been more likely to vote "no" throughout their entire lifetime?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Keep in mind that the poll doesn't include 16-17 year olds or EU nationals. That's another few percentage points at least. Increasing the margin of error in favour of NO.

Project fear had a real affect on EU nationals last time, but agent Cameron removed that unionist weapon at a stroke. If and when there's a next time its not hard to predict a total change of voting intentions from EU nationals living and working in Scotland.

[CloudSquall]

Do you become more likely to vote "no" as you get older, or would our over 65s just have been more likely to vote "no" throughout their entire lifetime?

People do tend to become more conservative / risk adverse as they age but I think the over 65's in Scotland have to a certain extent the "Rule Britannia" / "We'll fight them on the beaches" mentality when it comes to Britain.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you become more likely to vote "no" as you get older, or would our over 65s just have been more likely to vote "no" throughout their entire lifetime?

This is from a John Curtice report (wee bit out of date, 2012, but I think it holds true).


So what about those demographic differences?
Armed with this knowledge, can we now gain some further insight into why older people
and those in more middle class occupations are less likely to back independence?
The age gap seems to be primarily a question of identity. Older people are much more likely
to have a strong sense of British identity; over half of those aged over 65 give themselves a
score of six or seven on our Britishness scale, compared with just 14% of those aged 18-
24. They do indeed seem to be still to be carrying the outlook and sympathies of a more
unionist age. True, they are in also a little more pessimistic about the economic
consequences of independence, but in this case the difference is nothing like so stark.

[Hibbyradge]

People do tend to become more conservative / risk adverse as they age but I think the over 65's in Scotland have to a certain extent the "Rule Britannia" / "We'll fight them on the beaches" mentality when it comes to Britain.

I don't think that's the case, certainly not now, and I think the % of older yes voters will increase next time, even if only slightly.

People do become more risk averse as they age. Income is generally stable and opportunities to increase wealth for most are nonexistent.

Getting old isn't a pleasant experience, although the alternative is clearly worse, and things that younger people take in their stride can seem daunting.

The prospect of becoming poorer at that time of life, or maybe of risking your family's inheritance, can't be attractive for many.

I'm sure that folk who lack empathy or understanding will be along shortly to berate those comments, but just shouting at folk in that position and telling them that they're wrong, merely makes them even more determined.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think that's the case, certainly not now, and I think the % of older yes voters will increase next time, even if only slightly.

People do become more risk averse as they age. Income is generally stable and opportunities to increase wealth for most are nonexistent.

Getting old isn't a pleasant experience, although the alternative is clearly worse, and things that younger people take in their stride can seem daunting.

The prospect of becoming poorer at that time of life, or maybe of risking your family's inheritance, can't be attractive for many.

I'm sure that folk who lack empathy or understanding will be along shortly to berate those comments, but just shouting at folk in that position and telling them that they're wrong, merely makes them even more determined.

I think the "risk averse with age" thing happens much earlier than 65, when people take on kids, mortgages, etc.

Over 65s were much more likely to vote Leave in 2016, which you wouldn't expect if risk aversion was the key driver.

The common link between 2014 No and 2016 Leave is strong British identity.

[CloudSquall]

I don't think that's the case, certainly not now, and I think the % of older yes voters will increase next time, even if only slightly.

People do become more risk averse as they age. Income is generally stable and opportunities to increase wealth for most are nonexistent.

Getting old isn't a pleasant experience, although the alternative is clearly worse, and things that younger people take in their stride can seem daunting.

The prospect of becoming poorer at that time of life, or maybe of risking your family's inheritance, can't be attractive for many.

I'm sure that folk who lack empathy or understanding will be along shortly to berate those comments, but just shouting at folk in that position and telling them that they're wrong, merely makes them even more determined.

It's why the currency issue has to be nailed down, valid concerns over mortgage and pensions need to be answered.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the "risk averse with age" thing happens much earlier than 65, when people take on kids, mortgages, etc.

Over 65s were much more likely to vote Leave in 2016, which you wouldn't expect if risk aversion was the key driver.

The common link between 2014 No and 2016 Leave is strong British identity.

Long term that is good for independence as British identity is declining even in England.


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[James310]

It's why the currency issue has to be nailed down, valid concerns over mortgage and pensions need to be answered.

It's all done behind the scenes so nothing to worry about, just ask a few on here who are expert's.

[southsider]

Where do the SNP stand on ‘Death ‘Duty’ ?

[Hibbyradge]

I think the "risk averse with age" thing happens much earlier than 65, when people take on kids, mortgages, etc.

Over 65s were much more likely to vote Leave in 2016, which you wouldn't expect if risk aversion was the key driver.

The common link between 2014 No and 2016 Leave is strong British identity.

Yes, that's a good argument.

I wonder if that identity is still as strong in the current demographic.

[Moulin Yarns]

Where do the SNP stand on ‘Death ‘Duty’ ?

Everyone has a duty to die.

[Just Alf]

It's all done behind the scenes so nothing to worry about, just ask a few on here who are expert's.You're taking all that out of context.

When you were saying it would be a disaster, others said that other countries have managed fine so it could work here too, they've also said that, like elsewhere, some will be more successful than others and currently it's difficult to say where on that scale we'd be.

You keep saying, for an iScotland we'd be on the 'disaster' end of the scale.

What makes you think that?


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[James310]

You're taking all that out of context.

When you were saying it would be a disaster, others said that other countries have managed fine so it could work here too, they've also said that, like elsewhere, some will be more successful than others and currently it's difficult to say where on that scale we'd be.

You keep saying, for an iScotland we'd be on the 'disaster' end of the scale.

What makes you think that?


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Not at all, the point was quite a specific one a while back around exchange rates.

I am pleased to see that some on the Yes side understands it remains an issue, but some not all on here seem to believe there is no issue at all.

[Jack]

Indeed. It's an understandable concern and most certainly not one to be dismissed it, worse still, mocked.

I don't know how a no deal Brexit will affect pensions, but there may be an opportunity to argue that pensions will improve in an Indy/ EU Scotland.

House prices are most likely going to drop after Brexit so that may be another lever to use.

House prices in London have already cooled considerably as a result of the uncertainty around Brexit, falling by an average of £71 a day according to an 'expert' on the wireless this morning.

[James310]

I don't know how a no deal Brexit will affect pensions, but there may be an opportunity to argue that pensions will improve in an Indy/ EU Scotland.


Can you define by what you mean when you say pensions may 'improve' in an independent Scotland?

Not a trick question, just what does an improved pension look like? Do you mean the Scottish Government will increase the state pension payments?

[Ozyhibby]

Can you define by what you mean when you say pensions may 'improve' in an independent Scotland?

Not a trick question, just what does an improved pension look like? Do you mean the Scottish Government will increase the state pension payments?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/1961780f53076dd6b2d5233b986b0c44.jpg
Nobody can say if they def improve or get worse in an independent Scotland but there is certainly room for a bit of improvement.



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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/1961780f53076dd6b2d5233b986b0c44.jpg
Nobody can say if they def improve or get worse in an independent Scotland but there is certainly room for a bit of improvement.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am sure everyone would welcome an improvement in their pension! It's a very expensive thing for a government to do though, especially with an ageing population like we have.

[Hibbyradge]

Can you define by what you mean when you say pensions may 'improve' in an independent Scotland?

Not a trick question, just what does an improved pension look like? Do you mean the Scottish Government will increase the state pension payments?

I don't know exactly, hence the use of the words "may be", but my thinking is that if the rUK's economy tanks as expected, an independent Scotland in the EU might find its financial health comparing rather well.

Whether it pans out like that or not, it's an argument that could be made.

I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems you don't need one to make economic arguments anyway.

Let's give £350m a week to the NHS and don't listen to the so-called experts. :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Can you define by what you mean when you say pensions may 'improve' in an independent Scotland?

Not a trick question, just what does an improved pension look like? Do you mean the Scottish Government will increase the state pension payments?

Maybe if they were paid in an independent Scotland.

Asking for a waspi woman.

[ronaldo7]

I am sure everyone would welcome an improvement in their pension! It's a very expensive thing for a government to do though, especially with an ageing population like we have.

You're not allowed to use the word ,"we", yer pal said so.

[CloudSquall]

I am sure everyone would welcome an improvement in their pension! It's a very expensive thing for a government to do though, especially with an ageing population like we have.

For me the ageing population is an argument for independence, Scotland needs to attract more immigration and needs it's own immigration policies.

[James310]

For me the ageing population is an argument for independence, Scotland needs to attract more immigration and needs it's own immigration policies.

I would agree with that and have said in the past it should be devolved post Brexit.

[Fife-Hibee]

I am sure everyone would welcome an improvement in their pension! It's a very expensive thing for a government to do though, especially with an ageing population like we have.

If we have full control over our economy and the tax generated within the economy, then perhaps we can make Scotland more appealing for young people to live and work here. Thus making up for the age imbalance and ultimately generating enough taxation to properly fund a healthy state pension.

[CloudSquall]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

John McDonnell open to a a 2nd indy referendum.

[lord bunberry]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

John McDonnell open to a a 2nd indy referendum.
Given that there was such a large minority of Labour voters backing independence in the poll it’s not surprising to see Labour not wanting to slam the door shut on a second referendum. I’m sure it was around 40% of Labour voters back independence. Kind of makes Dickie boys rantings seem a little out of touch.

[Ozyhibby]

I would agree with that and have said in the past it should be devolved post Brexit.

There is no chance it will be devolved though. Zero.
Independence is the only chance Scotland has of being able to encourage immigration.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

John McDonnell open to a a 2nd indy referendum.

Seems Ian Murray is not best pleased with him.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/5a387f5fd8e82586e9b20560e61b96ce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/b6de778631624300010662df2026682c.jpg


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[James310]

There is no chance it will be devolved though. Zero.
Independence is the only chance Scotland has of being able to encourage immigration.


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Plenty of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-my-advice-to-people-in-england-come-to-scotland-1-4977450

[Moulin Yarns]

Plenty of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-my-advice-to-people-in-england-come-to-scotland-1-4977450

You mean after Brexit and Scotland is independent everyone will want to move here.

We knew that you would see sense in the end. 😁

[Callum_62]

Plenty of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-my-advice-to-people-in-england-come-to-scotland-1-4977450Which isn't nearly the same as having devolved immigration powers

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[ronaldo7]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/06/john-mcdonnell-open-to-second-scottish-independence-vote

John McDonnell open to a a 2nd indy referendum.

What say the corbynistas on here. Surely they follow John boy.

[Colr]

You mean after Brexit and Scotland is independent everyone will want to move here.

We knew that you would see sense in the end. 😁

Build a wall!!

[James310]

Which isn't nearly the same as having devolved immigration powers

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No, but there are 60 million people on our doorstep that don't need visas and have free movement now and after October. No language barriers as well. Just a suggestion.

[The Modfather]

Build a wall!!

And make the tories pay for it!

[G B Young]

Seems Ian Murray is not best pleased with him.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/5a387f5fd8e82586e9b20560e61b96ce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/b6de778631624300010662df2026682c.jpg


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Not to often I agree with Ian Murray but he's right here. McDonnell's a bitter old slaver who will say anything to come across as Mr Reasonable.

[CloudSquall]

The issue I have with the likes of Ian Murray is that they hate nationalism if it stops at Gretna but love it if it stops at Dover.

[Ozyhibby]

The issue I have with the likes of Ian Murray is that they hate nationalism if it stops at Gretna but love it if it stops at Dover.

Nah, you must be mistaken. [emoji6]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190806/aa475744c691f8322da64569d92d69d7.jpg


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[GORDONSMITH7]

Not to often I agree with Ian Murray but he's right here. McDonnell's a bitter old slaver who will say anything to come across as Mr Reasonable.

You seem to have a penchant for quoting right wing Blairites, Margeret Curran the other day now this wee Jambo s***. Your concern for the Labour Party, GBYoungconservative is touching but utterly disingenuous and unconvincing to most on here. Get it ?

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

The issue I have with the likes of Ian Murray is that they hate nationalism if it stops at Gretna but love it if it stops at Dover.

Correct. Just another politician in Scotland who pretends to oppose nationalism, but behind closed doors is full of glee at the prospect of empire 2.0.

[Hibbyradge]

You seem to have a penchant for quoting right wing Blairites, Margeret Curran the other day now this wee Jambo s***. Your concern for the Labour Party, GBYoungconservative is touching but utterly disingenuous and unconvincing to most on here. Get it ?

BIG G

When I was active in the TU movement, I joined my union's Broad Left which was, by and large, controlled by Millitant.

Their most effective control mechanism was to label anyone with a differing opinion, a "right winger" or a Tory. No-one wanted to be saddled with one of those names, so most people stayed shtum.

Fortunately, stronger characters realised that being called a "right winger" by Militant or by the likes of the SWP, was utterly meaningless as they were more concerned about out-lefting each other than the actual union membership.

Blairites, Red Tories, Right Wingers. All words we still hear and read about today. Why change a tried and tested tactic?

It's like bairns pointing at someone and shouting "he's got the scabby touch".

Bullying, in other words. If you allow yourself to be bullied, that is.

[Ozyhibby]

When I was active in the TU movement, I joined my union's Broad Left which was, by and large, controlled by Millitant.

Their most effective control mechanism was to label anyone with a differing opinion, a "right winger" or a Tory. No-one wanted to be saddled with one of those names, so most people stayed shtum.

Fortunately, stronger characters realised that being called a "right winger" by Militant or by the likes of the SWP, was utterly meaningless as they were more concerned about out-lefting each other than the actual union membership.

Blairites, Red Tories, Right Wingers. All words we still hear and read about today. Why change a tried and tested tactic?

It's like bairns pointing at someone and shouting "he's got the scabby touch".

Bullying, in other words. If you allow yourself to be bullied, that is.

Funny thing is, there is no one more effective at delivering Tory governments than the left wing of the Labour Party.


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[Hibbyradge]

Funny thing is, there is no one more effective at delivering Tory governments than the left wing of the Labour Party.


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You have a point.

Purity before power, comrade.

[Mr Grieves]

Not to often I agree with Ian Murray but he's right here. McDonnell's a bitter old slaver who will say anything to come across as Mr Reasonable.

And what exactly is wrong with what Mcdonnell said yesterday and repeated today?

https://twitter.com/MalcolmChishol1/status/1158971261801979904?s=19

Malcolm Chisholm gets it

[GORDONSMITH7]

When I was active in the TU movement, I joined my union's Broad Left which was, by and large, controlled by Millitant.

Their most effective control mechanism was to label anyone with a differing opinion, a "right winger" or a Tory. No-one wanted to be saddled with one of those names, so most people stayed shtum.

Fortunately, stronger characters realised that being called a "right winger" by Militant or by the likes of the SWP, was utterly meaningless as they were more concerned about out-lefting each other than the actual union membership.

Blairites, Red Tories, Right Wingers. All words we still hear and read about today. Why change a tried and tested tactic?

It's like bairns pointing at someone and shouting "he's got the scabby touch".

Bullying, in other words. If you allow yourself to be bullied, that is.

In the past week or so articles attacking Corbyn in the Tory supporting billionaire press have been gleefully reproduced, by Peter Mandelson, Baron Mandelson...Blairite or am I being a bully, Alistair Campbell...Blairite or am I being a bully, Alan Johnson...Blairite or am I being a bully, Tony Blair... erm Blairite or am I being a bully and of course in the past 24 hour McDonnell for his Independence Referendum comments by smug wee Blairites...Ian Murray MP and Douglas Alexander or am I being a bully.

BIG G

[Fife-Hibee]

Project fear back in full swing again with a recycled story about "RBS moving to England" (but really only their head office). There must have been a poll or something.

[Hibbyradge]

In the past week or so articles attacking Corbyn in the Tory supporting billionaire press have been gleefully reproduced, by Peter Mandelson, Baron Mandelson...Blairite or am I being a bully, Alistair Campbell...Blairite or am I being a bully, Alan Johnson...Blairite or am I being a bully, Tony Blair... erm Blairite or am I being a bully and of course in the past 24 hour McDonnell for his Independence Referendum comments by smug wee Blairites...Ian Murray MP and Douglas Alexander or am I being a bully.

BIG G

I think you know the answer to all those questions.

What else is putting people in your own party down by calling them names if it's not part and parcel of bullying.

It's a standard and cowardly tactic used by the left to side step issues and keep people in line.

Ignore everything XY or Z says because they're a right winger or a Blairite.

I'd rather someone more palatable to the electorate was leading the Labour Party but if Corbyn pulls off a miracle, I'll be delighted to see the back of the Tories.

I suspect you'd rather the Tories won than someone from the centre or right of the party.

Purity over Power. Madness.

[heretoday]

Mcdonnell's a sleekit wee nyaff.

[CloudSquall]

I'll never understand why Scottish Labour doesn't position itself as the party of home rule, pushing for further devolution and federalism.

It would win (or "would've won" given the horse may have already bolted) them support from soft no and yes voters, but instead they are trying to out union the Conservatives.

Given they will never succeed in that vs staunch loyal Ruth they are only ever going to lose, and combined with the fact that around 40% of their voters now support full independence they may as well buy themselves their own gravestone.

They are screaming out for someone like Malcolm Chisholm but instead they have a complete and utter noddy like Murray and a complete nobody in Leonard.

[Fife-Hibee]

Mcdonnell's a sleekit wee nyaff.

Why?

Is it really such a terrible thing to suggest that if a majority of Scots want another independence referendum that the UK Government shouldn't use undemocratic means to stand in its way?

Surely it would be "sleekit" to suggest that there is no demand in Scotland for another referendum despite the obvious shift in polling to the contrary?

[CloudSquall]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/rbs-will-move-to-england-if-scotland-becomes-independent-1-4978241

"Christ.... Nigel there's a poll putting Yes in the lead"

Riffles through filing cabinet...

"What about this one? No.101, RBS moving south if the jocks vote for independence?"

"Classic, get it printed"

[cabbageandribs1875]

Project fear back in full swing again with a recycled story about "RBS moving to England" (but really only their head office). There must have been a poll or something.




they won't be the only leavers :boo hoo:



22401

[James310]

I see the Citizens Assemblies are kicking off and racked up costs of quarter of million pounds already. I am sure they are bound to be completely impartial like Nicola Sturgeon promised when Joanna Cherry says things like:

"And if a citizens assembly can bring people together over an issue as frought as the abortion issue was in Ireland, then it can do so in Scotland as we prepare our vision of what an independent Scotland should look like"

So for something that is supposed to be impartial and hear the views of everyone in Scotland it seems odd that a Senior member of the SNP has said it's about shaping the vision of what an independent Scotland would look like! So why would someone who is opposed to Independence attend if the aims have already been decided and those aims are to advance Independence?

And guess who has been employed to select the potential attendees that will represent a cross section of Scotland? A close friend and colleague of ex SNP MP Angus Robertson, he helped him set up Progress Scotland a pro Independence research company and now has the contract to select the attendees, no doubt being paid handsomely by the taxpayers to do so. How very Tory of them.

I guess it's just me though and it's another anti SNP rant. Nothing to see.

[The Modfather]

I see the Citizens Assemblies are kicking off and racked up costs of quarter of million pounds already. I am sure they are bound to be completely impartial like Nicola Sturgeon promised when Joanna Cherry says things like:

"And if a citizens assembly can bring people together over an issue as frought as the abortion issue was in Ireland, then it can do so in Scotland as we prepare our vision of what an independent Scotland should look like"

So for something that is supposed to be impartial and hear the views of everyone in Scotland it seems odd that a Senior member of the SNP has said it's about shaping the vision of what an independent Scotland would look like! So why would someone who is opposed to Independence attend if the aims have already been decided and those aims are to advance Independence?

And guess who has been employed to select the potential attendees that will represent a cross section of Scotland? A close friend and colleague of ex SNP MP Angus Robertson, he helped him set up Progress Scotland a pro Independence research company and now has the contract to select the attendees, no doubt being paid handsomely by the taxpayers to do so. How very Tory of them.

I guess it's just me though and it's another anti SNP rant. Nothing to see.

I’d never heard of a citizens assembly before so don’t know anything about the mechanisms of how they come to pass. However, is there anything stopping another citizens assembly being set up to discuss the way forward for Scotland in the union post Brexit?

[James310]

I’d never heard of a citizens assembly before so don’t know anything about the mechanisms of how they come to pass. However, is there anything stopping another citizens assembly being set up to discuss the way forward for Scotland in the union post Brexit?

In principle they sound like good ideas, but it's not helpful when a senior member of the SNP says they are to advance the Independence cause.

I don't see why a post Brexit one could not be set up, if done properly this time.

Some more info.

https://www.gov.scot/news/citizens-assembly-of-scotland/

What Cherry said is at odds with what Mike Russel says. Although Russel called No voters traitors so not sure he was the best choice to lead this.

"It is a bold idea and one I hope everyone, whatever their political view, can embrace. I believe we all want the best for Scotland and if we have learnt anything from Brexit it is the need to make space for people to engage with information and to exchange different views.”

[The Modfather]

In principle they sound like good ideas, but it's not helpful when a senior member of the SNP says they are to advance the Independence cause.

I don't see why a post Brexit one could not be set up, if done properly this time.

Some more info.

https://www.gov.scot/news/citizens-assembly-of-scotland/

The way I look at it is that any form of cross party talks is a good thing. So while I’m not on the side of wanting Scotland to remain in the union post Brexit I still think a citizens assembly to talk about Scotland post Brexit in the union would also be a positive thing.

[James310]

The way I look at it is that any form of cross party talks is a good thing. So while I’m not on the side of wanting Scotland to remain in the union post Brexit I still think a citizens assembly to talk about Scotland post Brexit in the union would also be a positive thing.

It's not political parties, it's punters off the street, like me and you and everyone else on here. That would be interesting....

[The Modfather]

It's not political parties, it's punters off the street, like me and you and everyone else on here. That would be interesting....

Ah right, my misunderstanding. Although my general point still stands.

[Fife-Hibee]

I certainly hope the Citizens Assembly are pro-SNP and pro-independence to counteract the UK Scottish Offices tasked with snatching powers away from Holyrood.

[Jack]

I see the Citizens Assemblies are kicking off and racked up costs of quarter of million pounds already. I am sure they are bound to be completely impartial like Nicola Sturgeon promised when Joanna Cherry says things like:

"And if a citizens assembly can bring people together over an issue as frought as the abortion issue was in Ireland, then it can do so in Scotland as we prepare our vision of what an independent Scotland should look like"

So for something that is supposed to be impartial and hear the views of everyone in Scotland it seems odd that a Senior member of the SNP has said it's about shaping the vision of what an independent Scotland would look like! So why would someone who is opposed to Independence attend if the aims have already been decided and those aims are to advance Independence?

And guess who has been employed to select the potential attendees that will represent a cross section of Scotland? A close friend and colleague of ex SNP MP Angus Robertson, he helped him set up Progress Scotland a pro Independence research company and now has the contract to select the attendees, no doubt being paid handsomely by the taxpayers to do so. How very Tory of them.

I guess it's just me though and it's another anti SNP rant. Nothing to see.

It’s probably better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in the wind.

It's going to happen. Be part of Scotland's enlightened future.

[ronaldo7]

The way I look at it is that any form of cross party talks is a good thing. So while I’m not on the side of wanting Scotland to remain in the union post Brexit I still think a citizens assembly to talk about Scotland post Brexit in the union would also be a positive thing.


Two Independent conveners have been appointed to lead Scotland's citizens assembly.

Former Labour MEP David Martin and third sector leader Kate Wimpress. They will work independent from government.

You can see more here

https://www.citizensassembly.scot/

This bit is of interest.

Elected or appointed representatives (including MSPs, MPs, MEPs, councillors and Members of the House of Lords), the staff of political parties, public appointees and senior public and civil servants and the representatives or officials of relevant advocacy groups will all be ineligible to be Assembly members.

I'll also let you make your own mind up about the person linked by James on this thread. He's also worked with the Tories, Labour, and the Lib dems.

http://www.markdiffley.co.uk/testimonials/

Some more Q&A's here.

https://www.citizensassembly.scot/faqs


Happy to provide the facts. :aok:

[James310]

The original aims are sound enough, it's a shame Joanna Cherry has tainted them by admitting that ultimately they are there to forward Indy only, they could have really worked if they were impartial like what was promised.

Nice to see that they look after their own when the government contracts are being handed out. As I say how very Tory of them.

[ronaldo7]

The original aims are sound enough, it's a shame Joanna Cherry has tainted them by admitting that ultimately they are there to forward Indy only, they could have really worked if they were impartial like what was promised.

Nice to see that they look after their own when the government contracts are being handed out. As I say how very Tory of them.

I suppose you'll be happy that Joanna is not allowed to be involved then. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

The original aims are sound enough, it's a shame Joanna Cherry has tainted them by admitting that ultimately they are there to forward Indy only, they could have really worked if they were impartial like what was promised.

Nice to see that they look after their own when the government contracts are being handed out. As I say how very Tory of them.

Your negativity about anything that tries to improve Scotland knows no bounds.

One of the advisors to the citizens assembly said this.


“So earlier this week when comments were made by a very prominent member of the SNP, it was perhaps the most unhelpful contribution that has been made so far to this process. I understand why this happens – it happens because they’re talking to their own supporters, they frame it in a way that is appealing to them. But it completely goes against the ethos.
“The person who made these comments has actually nothing to do with the Citizens’ Assembly. She’s not involved in organising it, she’s not involved in any of the advisory boards. She’s just someone who has advocated for Citizens’ Assemblies because she’s been inspired by the Irish example.”



As it is not a political assembly and will appoint 120 people from across different social groups. It is also strange that opposition parties want nothing to do with it when it has nothing to do with political parties :wink:


The proposed 120-strong body will comprise randomly selected members of the public, but has faced early problems after the Tories and Liberal Democrats announced they would not be taking part, claiming it is a nationalist ploy to further the cause of independence.



https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/support-grows-for-new-way-of-doing-democracy-as-hundreds-discuss-scottish-citizens-assembly-plans/

[ronaldo7]

Your negativity about anything that tries to improve Scotland knows no bounds.

One of the advisors to the citizens assembly said this.



As it is not a political assembly and will appoint 20 people from across different social groups. It is also strange that opposition parties want nothing to do with it when it has nothing to do with political parties :wink:





https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/support-grows-for-new-way-of-doing-democracy-as-hundreds-discuss-scottish-citizens-assembly-plans/


I'm wondering why it's on the independence thread at all. Maybe it should get moved to the main forum.:wink:

[lord bunberry]

The original aims are sound enough, it's a shame Joanna Cherry has tainted them by admitting that ultimately they are there to forward Indy only, they could have really worked if they were impartial like what was promised.

Nice to see that they look after their own when the government contracts are being handed out. As I say how very Tory of them.
You are unbelievable at times. You find a policy then no matter how good it might be, you will focus entirely on the one negative that you can find. I don’t recall you having much enthusiasm for the citizens assemblies before Joanna made those comments.

[Fife-Hibee]

The original aims are sound enough, it's a shame Joanna Cherry has tainted them by admitting that ultimately they are there to forward Indy only, they could have really worked if they were impartial like what was promised.

Nice to see that they look after their own when the government contracts are being handed out. As I say how very Tory of them.

What's your view on the new UK Office in Scotland designed to pinch powers away from the Scottish Parliament?

Wonderful aye?

[Moulin Yarns]

You are unbelievable at times. You find a policy then no matter how good it might be, you will focus entirely on the one negative that you can find. I don’t recall you having much enthusiasm for the citizens assemblies before Joanna made those comments.

Hold the bus!!!!

Today is a momentous occasion, our favourite poster has found a new interest

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?341067-Efe-Ambrose&p=5877016&viewfull=1#post5877016

[James310]

There would be no need for comment if the original aims had been adhered to, even the advisor to the citizens assembly has criticised her unhelpful comments, so why is it an issue when I highlight it on here?

The double standards on this place amuse me no end.

Your so negative and critical....right I am off to the Brexit and Boris threads to read all the positive and uplifting comments.

[James310]

What's your view on the new UK Office in Scotland designed to pinch powers away from the Scottish Parliament?

Wonderful aye?

Don't know anything about that, where did you see that?

[Fife-Hibee]

Don't know anything about that, where did you see that?

Oh you don't? That's convenient.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/progress-on-flagship-edinburgh-uk-government-hub

[JeMeSouviens]

Mark Diffley, whose consultancy company has been tasked with selecting Citizens' Assembly participants, used to run Ipsos MORI's polling in Scotland. Among his better known clients was the Better Together campaign. So right enough, he's probably a screaming Nat. :rolleyes:

He's also English - not that it matters, just makes the screaming Nat conspiracy even more ridiculous.

[Moulin Yarns]

You are unbelievable at times. You find a policy then no matter how good it might be, you will focus entirely on the one negative that you can find. I don’t recall you having much enthusiasm for the citizens assemblies before Joanna made those comments.


Mark Diffley, whose consultancy company has been tasked with selecting Citizens' Assembly participants, used to run Ipsos MORI's polling in Scotland. Among his better known clients was the Better Together campaign. So right enough, he's probably a screaming Nat. :rolleyes:

I bet he is struggling to get enough undercover BT types seeing as 2 parties say they won't cooperate. Maybe he will get some audience members from Newsnight to take part :wink:

[James310]

I bet he is struggling to get enough undercover BT types seeing as 2 parties say they won't cooperate. Maybe he will get some audience members from Newsnight to take part :wink:

A clear conflict of interest when he set up a pro Indy research group with the ex SNP deputy leader. I mean they could have appointed lots of people who were capable but the contract goes to Angus Robertsons friend and colleague.

I don't expect any pro Indy supporters to see that as a problem though, so glad you never disappointed.

[ronaldo7]

Mark Diffley, whose consultancy company has been tasked with selecting Citizens' Assembly participants, used to run Ipsos MORI's polling in Scotland. Among his better known clients was the Better Together campaign. So right enough, he's probably a screaming Nat. :rolleyes:

He's also English - not that it matters, just makes the screaming Nat conspiracy even more ridiculous.

Don't worry, the Sneer with the Smear will be along to apologise.

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't worry, the Sneer with the Smear will be along to apologise.

I think you mean Colin Robinson. :wink:

[marinello59]

Mark Diffley, whose consultancy company has been tasked with selecting Citizens' Assembly participants, used to run Ipsos MORI's polling in Scotland. Among his better known clients was the Better Together campaign. So right enough, he's probably a screaming Nat. :rolleyes:

He's also English - not that it matters, just makes the screaming Nat conspiracy even more ridiculous.

His company is expert in this field, it should always be in the running for a contract like this. James is looking for something that isn’t there. I do wonder if this will be nothing more than an extended opinion poll though. I’d rather have seen something along the lines of the Scottish Constitutional Convention emerge in recent years.
However if May had anounced something similar to discuss the future of the UK followed by Boris saying it was designed to debate the future of a post-Brexit Britain would everybody here just have accepted it?:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Hold the bus!!!!

Today is a momentous occasion, our favourite poster has found a new interest

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?341067-Efe-Ambrose&p=5877016&viewfull=1#post5877016
:faf::faf:

[Green Man]

Mark Diffley, whose consultancy company has been tasked with selecting Citizens' Assembly participants, used to run Ipsos MORI's polling in Scotland. Among his better known clients was the Better Together campaign. So right enough, he's probably a screaming Nat. :rolleyes:

He's also English - not that it matters, just makes the screaming Nat conspiracy even more ridiculous.

He’s also a Celtic fan though, so he’ll have a clear Irish agenda...

[Just Alf]

As I understand it, when the Citizen Assemblies were 1st Announced they were intended to be a sounding board of the general population to help drive government policy.

Aim was to focus on the big question of the day (as decided by the government of the day of course). At the moment the big question in Scotland I guess is independence.

Brexit is out of scope as that's UK wide but I wonder what the feed back would be if they were in place UK wide.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

I should add, from an SNP perspective they'll be hoping to tease out what would move soft no's to a yes so they can address that in any future campaign.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

What's your view on the new UK Office in Scotland designed to pinch powers away from the Scottish Parliament?

Wonderful aye?

You don't normally find these things on SNP Twitter feeds. He'd be lost.

[JeMeSouviens]

Somewhere in London, a penny drops:


Scotland has the same population as Denmark, with much the same resources, infrastructure and talent. Once it was richer by far. Today its GDP per person is $33,000 against Denmark’s $63,000. I am sure the slide lies in Scotland’s long economic dependency on the UK.

Denmark would no more think of re-entering its former union with Norway than of leaving the EU. It enjoys small-state autonomy, and clearly prospers from it. It is a rich, happy country.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon

[The Modfather]

Somewhere in London, a penny drops:



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon

Will be interesting to hear how Denmark isn’t a valid comparison and that Scotland is unique in history from separating from a larger union. The difficulties in doing so beyond comprehension, so no point in trying.

[Future17]

Hold the bus!!!!

Today is a momentous occasion, our favourite poster has found a new interest

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?341067-Efe-Ambrose&p=5877016&viewfull=1#post5877016

Unemployed African migrants could be considered a "political" issue to be fair.

[Future17]

Somewhere in London, a penny drops:



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon

Interesting perspective. The last paragraph is a bit wide of the mark though!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Somewhere in London, a penny drops:



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon

Read that this morning, good piece.

[CloudSquall]

I've always wondered what the unionist view point is on the development of the Nordic countries in comparison to Scotland, how is it that they were so successful in creating high standards of living, develop robust economies, and in the case of Norway a trillion dollar oil fund, while Scotland was left behind in our "glorious" union?

[James310]

Oh you don't? That's convenient.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/progress-on-flagship-edinburgh-uk-government-hub

Sounds awful.

"the Hub will improve the work of the UK Government in Scotland, helping them deliver better services for Scottish people. It will enable closer collaboration between departments, smarter working, and use of the latest technology"

I mean imagine suggesting something positive like helping deliver better services for Scottish people, what on earth are they thinking!

And I am negative and find fault in everything? Sure, it's just me. Again got to love the double standards.

[Fife-Hibee]

Sounds awful.

"the Hub will improve the work of the UK Government in Scotland, helping them deliver better services for Scottish people. It will enable closer collaboration between departments, smarter working, and use of the latest technology"

I mean imagine suggesting something positive like helping deliver better services for Scottish people, what on earth are they thinking!

And I am negative and find fault in everything? Sure, it's just me. Again got to love the double standards.

It's interesting how you can twist quotes when it suits you, but are equally as willing to take quotes at face value when it suits you as well.

Interesting that this take over of control over Scotlands public services is happening at a time when we're exiting the European Union.

[Just Alf]

Sounds awful.

"the Hub will improve the work of the UK Government in Scotland, helping them deliver better services for Scottish people. It will enable closer collaboration between departments, smarter working, and use of the latest technology"

I mean imagine suggesting something positive like helping deliver better services for Scottish people, what on earth are they thinking!

And I am negative and find fault in everything? Sure, it's just me. Again got to love the double standards.If the hub was using Westminster spending then its an admirable idea and I think we'd all agree.

The issue though, is that they're retaining 'devolved' funds from future projects that would have been decided locally as being a priority.
Sometimes they'd be the same thing, not always though.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[James310]

It's interesting how you can twist quotes when it suits you, but are equally as willing to take quotes at face value when it suits you as well.

Interesting that this take over of control over Scotlands public services is happening at a time when we're exiting the European Union.

I read the link you sent me to a government website, funnily enough there were no quotes or information about how it was being set up to remove power from the Scottish Parliament. I quoted what I felt was the most relevant part.

It might be your opinion it has been set up as that, but that's all it is, an opinion.

[Fife-Hibee]

I read the link you sent me to a government website, funnily enough there were no quotes or information about how it was being set up to remove power from the Scottish Parliament. I quoted what I felt was the most relevant part.

It might be your opinion it has been set up as that, but that's all it is, an opinion.

Just as it's "your opinion" that the Scottish Assembly is being set up to push an independence agenda despite the number of die hard unionists involved in the project.

I wonder how many independence supporting politicians will be involved at the new UK Office.

[James310]

If the hub was using Westminster spending then its an admirable idea and I think we'd all agree.

The issue though, is that they're retaining 'devolved' funds from future projects that would have been decided locally as being a priority.
Sometimes they'd be the same thing, not always though.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Not read that anywhere, I see the likes of HMRC are moving in, that's a UK wide service I believe.

What examples are there for this claim?

[James310]

Just as it's "your opinion" that the Scottish Assembly is being set up to push an independence agenda despite the number of die hard unionists involved in the project.

I wonder how many independence supporting politicians will be involved at the new UK Office.

Well my claim or opinion was backed up with a quote from a senior SNP MP who said that's exactly what they were for. Further backed up by one of the conveners saying it was a very unhelpful comment.

Reading what you sent me suggests the new UK government office is just that, a government office, last time I looked no Independence supporting politicians were part of the UK government. As I say I don't know why you are so negative and finding fault at something that will deliver better services for Scotland, such a shame all this negativity.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see Colin Robinson is back.

[James310]

I see Colin Robinson is back.

I see you are acting like a child again, I tolerated you because you amused me with you 'it all happens behind the scenes' theories, they still amuse me now to be honest. Would rather not put you on ignore like the others in your gang.

Please explain to us all what that comment means? I am sure it's on topic and relevant to the discussion? Is it about me or something or someone else?

[Just Alf]

Not read that anywhere, I see the likes of HMRC are moving in, that's a UK wide service I believe.

What examples are there for this claim?Apologies, looks like I'm thinking about something else.

Doing the bit of investigating to find that out I also found that the Hub (and the one in Glasgow when it comes) is actually about staff reductions, Looking back I picked up the negative view from reporting at the time, in essence they're consolidating Livingston, Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen offices to Edinburgh Hub.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

I see you are acting like a child again, I tolerated you because you amused me with you 'it all happens behind the scenes' theories, they still amuse me now to be honest. Would rather not put you on ignore like the others in your gang.

Please explain to us all what that comment means? I am sure it's on topic and relevant to the discussion? Is it about me or something or someone else?

Out of interest, and if you don't mind me asking, who is in MY's "gang"?!

[Moulin Yarns]

I see you are acting like a child again, I tolerated you because you amused me with you 'it all happens behind the scenes' theories, they still amuse me now to be honest. Would rather not put you on ignore like the others in your gang.

Please explain to us all what that comment means? I am sure it's on topic and relevant to the discussion? Is it about me or something or someone else?

Yes.

Just for you...

Here's to you Colin Robinson,
Jesus loves you more than you will know,
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Moulin Yarns]

Out of interest, and if you don't mind me asking, who is in MY's "gang"?!

Nobody. But do you want to be in his gang, his gang, his gang, want to be in his gang, his gang!

[James310]

Yes.

Just for you...

Here's to you Colin Robinson.

Well go on then explain it, I am sure it's hilarious and we can all have a laugh?

[Moulin Yarns]

Well go on then explain it, I am sure it's hilarious and we can all have a laugh?

Edit.

[James310]

Edit.

?

Still waiting for an explanation? I am sure it's relevant and on topic? It's obviously funny so share the joke?

I get abuse for not answering questions so I am sure you will answer it fully.

[Moulin Yarns]

?

Still waiting for an explanation? I am sure it's relevant and on topic? It's obviously funny so share the joke?

I get abuse for not answering questions so I am sure you will answer it fully.

No need, you nearly got me there 😁

[James310]

No need, you nearly got me there 😁

If you have the 'guts' to make a joke have the guts to explain it? Or keep making what I assume are personal jokes aimed at me, but if you explain it we will all know if they are jokes or not? Come on, have the guts to explain it.

[Moulin Yarns]

If you have the 'guts' to make a joke have the guts to explain it? Or keep making what I assume are personal jokes aimed at me, but if you explain it we will all know? Come on, have the guts to explain it.

It isn't a joke if it needs explanation. Just live in blissful ignorance. 😉

[James310]

It isn't a joke if it needs explanation. Just live in blissful ignorance. 😉

I would rather not, come on, share it? Or you embarrassed? If not embarrassed what's the problem? Come on, answer the question? Everyone can't stand the posters that refuse to the answer the questions on here, don't we?

This is like the 4th attempt to get you to explain it, what's the problem?

[Moulin Yarns]

I would rather not, come on, share it? Or you embarrassed? If not embarrassed what's the problem? Come on, answer the question? Everyone can't stand the posters that refuse to the answer the questions on here, don't we?

This is like the 4th attempt to get you to explain it, what's the problem?

Good. Now you realise how others feel when you refuse to back up your posts.

[James310]

Good. Now you realise how others feel when you refuse to back up your posts.

Look, if you don't have the guts to explain it and refuse to do so just say so? We will leave it there.

It's getting embarrassing for you now. Poor show from you.

[Moulin Yarns]

Look, if you don't have the guts to explain it and refuse to do so just say so? We will leave it there.

It's getting embarrassing for you now. Poor show from you.

https://images.app.goo.gl/4UCXLnuS54Rb1ihf7

[Ozyhibby]

I've always wondered what the unionist view point is on the development of the Nordic countries in comparison to Scotland, how is it that they were so successful in creating high standards of living, develop robust economies, and in the case of Norway a trillion dollar oil fund, while Scotland was left behind in our "glorious" union?

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon?__twitter_impression=true

Article in today’s guardian mentions the massive change in our fortunes compared to independent Denmark.



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[James310]

https://images.app.goo.gl/4UCXLnuS54Rb1ihf7

Still no further forward.

I take it despite asking you about 6 or 7 times you don't have the guts to explain it. We will leave it at that then as you are clearly not wanting to, if it was so funny you should have shared.

An embarrassing episode for you though. If you are man enough to make little snidey jokes at least be man enough to explain them. I am sure if it was the other way around I would not be let off so lightly.

[Mibbes Aye]

The hubs are simply consolidation for the sake of efficiency and financial savings, not some Machiavellian plot to ‘steal power’, that’s ludicrous.

For the last ten years various executive agencies and civil service teams that answer to Whitehall or to St Andrews House have moved into shared offices or hubs, sometimes alongside local authority staff as well. And often, spare capacity in these hubs is shared with voluntary sector organisations.

Still, it probably would have helped perceptions if they hadn’t built it inside a volcano under a retractable fake lake

[marinello59]

The hubs are simply consolidation for the sake of efficiency and financial savings, not some Machiavellian plot to ‘steal power’, that’s ludicrous.

For the last ten years various executive agencies and civil service teams that answer to Whitehall or to St Andrews House have moved into shared offices or hubs, sometimes alongside local authority staff as well. And often, spare capacity in these hubs is shared with voluntary sector organisations.

Still, it probably would have helped perceptions if they hadn’t built it inside a volcano under a retractable fake lake

:hilarious

[Fife-Hibee]

The hubs are simply consolidation for the sake of efficiency and financial savings, not some Machiavellian plot to ‘steal power’, that’s ludicrous.

Of course it's ludicrous.

If you ignore the fact that the hubs are over seen by the secretary of state which is now Alister Jack who is already on record suggesting that the UK Government should "have more control" over devolved spending in Scotland.

He wants to see Union Jacks stuck on to future structural projects in Scotland. Apparently to remind us all how lucky we are to still be in the UK. :rolleyes: - https://stv.tv/news/politics/1439735-jack-uk-minister-want-more-control-over-scottish-spending/

[Jack]

?

Still waiting for an explanation? I am sure it's relevant and on topic? It's obviously funny so share the joke?

I get abuse for not answering questions so I am sure you will answer it fully.
You might do but you still don't answer!

[Hibrandenburg]

Still no further forward.

I take it despite asking you about 6 or 7 times you don't have the guts to explain it. We will leave it at that then as you are clearly not wanting to, if it was so funny you should have shared.

An embarrassing episode for you though. If you are man enough to make little snidey jokes at least be man enough to explain them. I am sure if it was the other way around I would not be let off so lightly.

Says the man who actually said he'd refuse to comment on a post after having his question answered. Kettle, teapot and black.

[James310]

You might do but you still don't answer!

What did I not answer? If it was the post about Ireland you can go back and see I did answer, I think I ended my post with "question answered" you must have missed it.

I wonder if he will have the balls to do the same?

Why don't you harrass him to answer like you harrassed me? Bet you don't.

[James310]

Says the man who actually said he'd refuse to comment on a post after having his question answered. Kettle, teapot and black.

Because it was back and forth about Ireland that I had answered about 3 times already, it was not me making a snidey joke that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread and then not having the balls to explain it. I did actually go back with a further answer in the end if you want to check. Wonder if he will, does not have the guts to explain himself I reckon.

As I said I am happy to forget about it and leave it at that, I think he has been shown up for refusing to explain himself, it was not even a point about politics but some joke at my expense which is kind of pathetic (or maybe it wasn't, but as he refuses to explain it we will never know) but if you want to defend it and keep the discussion going be my guest.

Maybe if you ask him nicely he might just explain it and we can all have a laugh with him. But if you want to leave it at that then I am ok with that as well.

[Mibbes Aye]

:hilarious

My favourite Bond film, I hoped somebody would get the reference :greengrin

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49304055

Well, we know he will get at least one vote from a poster on here. :tee hee::tee hee:

Would anyone else consider voting for his party?

[Hiber-nation]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49304055

Well, we know he will get at least one vote from a poster on here. :tee hee::tee hee:

Would anyone else consider voting for his party?

For once I agree with you. It's self-parody now with this erse.

[Future17]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49304055

Well, we know he will get at least one vote from a poster on here. :tee hee::tee hee:

Would anyone else consider voting for his party?

I'm struggling to follow his thinking...not for the first time.

[weecounty hibby]

He is someone who believes he is more important than the actual end goal. He won't get many SNP supporters to move. Some of the more, how will I put this, lunatic fringe may go to him. He is like some of the posters on here in that he does have good points at times but goes completely off the deep end way too often.

[Future17]

He is someone who believes he is more important than the actual end goal. He won't get many SNP supporters to move. Some of the more, how will I put this, lunatic fringe may go to him. He is like some of the posters on here in that he does have good points at times but goes completely off the deep end way too often.

I don't disagree, but what does this mean?

"It's conceivable that a Wings party might be able to pick up list seats that the pro-indy side otherwise might not."

[James310]

For once I agree with you. It's self-parody now with this erse.

Can you imagine what the candidates would be like? I don't think anyone takes him seriously anymore and I am sure it will fizzle out to nothing.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't disagree, but what does this mean?

"It's conceivable that a Wings party might be able to pick up list seats that the pro-indy side otherwise might not."
He believes that he can get people to switch from, Labour, Tory and Libdem. As I say he is a delusional Erse who thinks he is the most important thing in the whole indy debate. If they won't move to the SNP they sure as hell won't move to him
Edit, as their second votes

[Future17]

He believes that he can get people to switch from, Labour, Tory and Libdem. As I say he is a delusional Erse who thinks he is the most important thing in the whole indy debate. If they won't move to the SNP they sure as hell won't move to him
Edit, as their second votes

That is delusional.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ronaldo7, you have linked him more times than I have had hot breakfasts.

Are you backing the separatist from the separatists?

Or was he just talking **** and you disown him now?

[heretoday]

Gordon Brown is five minutes behind everyone else.

[Fife-Hibee]

He believes that he can get people to switch from, Labour, Tory and Libdem. As I say he is a delusional Erse who thinks he is the most important thing in the whole indy debate. If they won't move to the SNP they sure as hell won't move to him
Edit, as their second votes

It's not about getting people to switch from lablibtory to him. It's about taking up seats in the list system. There are 31 tory MSPs at the moment, but 24 of them were rejected at the ballot box and got elected through on the list system instead.

I don't like him, but I don't like the tories even more. I'm sure most SNP voters feel that way.

[James310]

Wrong thread I know, but the new leader of UKIP is called Dick Braine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49307101

[weecounty hibby]

It's not about getting people to switch from lablibtory to him. It's about taking up seats in the list system. There are 31 tory MSPs at the moment, but 24 of them were rejected at the ballot box and got elected through on the list system instead.

I don't like him, but I don't like the tories even more. I'm sure most SNP voters feel that way.

Not sure you get the list system. They are elected due to percentage of votes cast for their parties. They don't just get on a list and get in. So yes he will need to get lablibcons to change votes

[CloudSquall]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/running-the-numbers/#more-111480

I'm torn on the guy, he has done some incredible work through the Wings site for the independence cause but he is a total knob.

The idea is quite a sound one on the basis that if the SNP pretty much cleans house on the constituency vote, votes for them on the list can be "wasted" in terms of how many list seats they can actually pick up, but I'm really not sure how many people would vote for a new party involving Wings, a lot would depend on the candidates they could field.

I quite like actually the idea of a new "Scottish Independence Party" on the list, but the sceptic in me says it would likely be the typical movement that seems huge within the Twitter bubble but picks up SSP levels of support on the day of a vote.

[Hibbyradge]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/running-the-numbers/#more-111480

I'm torn on the guy, he has done some incredible work through the Wings site for the independence cause but he is a total knob.

The idea is quite a sound one on the basis that if the SNP pretty much cleans house on the constituency vote, votes for them on the list can be "wasted" in terms of how many list seats they can actually pick up, but I'm really not sure how many people would vote for a new party involving Wings, a lot would depend on the candidates they could field.

I quite like actually the idea of a new "Scottish Independence Party" on the list, but the sceptic in me says it would likely be the typical movement that seems huge within the Twitter bubble but picks up SSP levels of support on the day of a vote.

I don't think he's done anything for the independence cause.

He speaks to, if not for, the extreme wing of the movement and his aggression merely manages to antagonise people who may not be as committed as he is.

If I had a vote, it wouldn't be going to him unless something major changed in his approach to people with contrary views.

Having said that, I have studiously avoided any of his writings for several years now, so his style and attitudes may already have changed.

[James310]

Ronaldo7, you have linked him more times than I have had hot breakfasts.

Are you backing the separatist from the separatists?

Or was he just talking **** and you disown him now?

Has he answered yet?

My guess is that he posted some emojis and missed the rest...

[Just Alf]

Wings has been a decent (at times) source of data and independence minded articles... That he's (Stuart Campbell) linked his site too, so not on the wings site itself, I hasten to add!

Other than that the boy's an 'erse



Edit, for an indy minded 2nd option my tick would go in the greens box, a wings backed candidate wouldnt even be considered, I would sort of see them as a bit like a Scottish indy version of a 'loony UKIP'


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[CloudSquall]

I don't think he's done anything for the independence cause.

He speaks to, if not for, the extreme wing of the movement and his aggression merely manages to antagonise people who may not be as committed as he is.

If I had a vote, it wouldn't be going to him unless something major changed in his approach to people with contrary views.

Having said that, I have studiously avoided any of his writings for several years now, so his style and attitudes may already have changed.

Have to disagree, the website has published a lot of good data and material over the years, doing a lot of work that the "mainstream" media should have been doing.

[Fife-Hibee]

Have to disagree, the website has published a lot of good data and material over the years, doing a lot of work that the "mainstream" media should have been doing.

:agree:

He's an arse, but one of the few real journalists doing the rounds. Because he's a real journalist you'll never see him anywhere near the BBC.

[Ozyhibby]

Might give my list vote to the greens next time round. Still sound on independence but the way the system works more chance of getting a green msp voted in. Plus I very much think we need to massively ramp up the work we are doing on climate change and the environment in general.


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[lord bunberry]

Have to disagree, the website has published a lot of good data and material over the years, doing a lot of work that the "mainstream" media should have been doing.
I agree with that, his problem is that now he is starting disappear up his own arse. The court case was the beginning and now this. He was good at exposing the lies in the mainstream media and presenting the evidence that backed up what he was saying, he needs to just stick to that.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/running-the-numbers/#more-111480

I'm torn on the guy, he has done some incredible work through the Wings site for the independence cause but he is a total knob.

The idea is quite a sound one on the basis that if the SNP pretty much cleans house on the constituency vote, votes for them on the list can be "wasted" in terms of how many list seats they can actually pick up, but I'm really not sure how many people would vote for a new party involving Wings, a lot would depend on the candidates they could field.

I quite like actually the idea of a new "Scottish Independence Party" on the list, but the sceptic in me says it would likely be the typical movement that seems huge within the Twitter bubble but picks up SSP levels of support on the day of a vote.

Don't really know much about the guy except for a couple of links I've clicked on here. I think he might just be highlighting the point that if you're after independence then ticking the box of a pro independence party with your 2nd vote is the thing to do. I'd imagine there's a lot of ex Tory and Labour voters who vote SNP because they want independence but then give their 2nd vote to their old party.

[Glory Lurker]

The SNP should just put their Colts side up for the list.

[ronaldo7]

Ronaldo7, you have linked him more times than I have had hot breakfasts.

Are you backing the separatist from the separatists?

Or was he just talking **** and you disown him now?

:faf::faf::faf:

Kenny Farq, a senior writer for the Times and Scotsman goes to Bath to interview the Rev Stu, and buy him a pint of milk the outcome is that somehow, he's taking on the SNP. :rolleyes:

You, and some others have swallowed the line peddled by dear old Ken. As the story regarding the interview has already been debunked, I'll let you froth along with yer pal. :greengrin

This is old news, I'm surprised that you wouldn't be up to speed, but maybe not.:wink: The purpose of setting something up to hoover up the list votes has been out there for years. We discussed it on here regarding the Greens taking some seats on the list.

The website that is linked on here by me and others has done a fantastic job of debunking the lies and stories emanating from the MSM. Go and get one of the links, on independence, and tell me what's in it, and it's not factual.

I can spot the difference from his twitter spats, and the website which he and his team produce. It's a pity others on here can't, but maybe they are too busy following people like, Historywoman, Brian Spanner, and Scotland in Union to see the difference.


Has he answered yet?

My guess is that he posted some emojis and missed the rest...

Really? I thought you'd put me on ignore, just like the rest of the "gang".

For someone who's asking others to "have the guts", and "be man enough" it's rather ironic that you're using other posters to have a peek from behind your living room curtains.

[James310]

:faf::faf::faf:

Kenny Farq, a senior writer for the Times and Scotsman goes to Bath to interview the Rev Stu, and buy him a pint of milk the outcome is that somehow, he's taking on the SNP. :rolleyes:

You, and some others have swallowed the line peddled by dear old Ken. As the story regarding the interview has already been debunked, I'll let you froth along with yer pal. :greengrin

This is old news, I'm surprised that you wouldn't be up to speed, but maybe not.:wink: The purpose of setting something up to hoover up the list votes has been out there for years. We discussed it on here regarding the Greens taking some seats on the list.

The website that is linked on here by me and others has done a fantastic job of debunking the lies and stories emanating from the MSM. Go and get one of the links, on independence, and tell me what's in it, and it's not factual.

I can spot the difference from his twitter spats, and the website which he and his team produce. It's a pity others on here can't, but maybe they are too busy following people like, Historywoman, Brian Spanner, and Scotland in Union to see the difference.



Really? I thought you'd put me on ignore, just like the rest of the "gang".

For someone who's asking others to "have the guts", and "be man enough" it's rather ironic that you're using other posters to have a peek from behind your living room curtains.

I took you off ignore specially for this. My post seem familiar? Shoe on the other foot now. Bye again.

I see you never answered the question though 😂😂, just like your other friend, turning into a habit. You'll be getting a reputation.

[ronaldo7]

I took you off ignore specially for this. My post seem familiar? Shoe on the other foot now. Bye again.

I see you never answered the question though 😂😂, just like your other friend, turning into a habit. You'll be getting a reputation.

That's gutsy of you, Manly even. I feel special that you'd deem my information on this subject, so good, that you'd take me off your list.

Enjoy the History woman.:wink:

[James310]

As for Rev Stu and his facts, many of them were proved not to be facts at all. Review at your leisure.

Courtesy of the dog food salesman. Or small business owner and employer of local people if you want to be precise.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2015/10/wings-and-his-wee-blue-book-of-errors.html?m=1

If you disagree with him he is more than happy to correct anything, unlike Rev Stu who tends to ignore criticism and then abuse the person who dared tell him he was wrong. He seems like such a nice guy.

[ronaldo7]

As for Rev Stu and his facts, many of them were proved not to be facts at all. Review at your leisure.

Courtesy of the dog food salesman. Or small business owner and employer of local people if you want to be precise.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2015/10/wings-and-his-wee-blue-book-of-errors.html?m=1

If you disagree with him he is more than happy to correct anything, unlike Rev Stu who tends to ignore criticism and then abuse the person who dared tell him he was wrong. He seems like such a nice guy.

Gers eh.

That'll be that then. Who knew you'd post about them after yesterday.

[Hibrandenburg]

As for Rev Stu and his facts, many of them were proved not to be facts at all. Review at your leisure.

Courtesy of the dog food salesman. Or small business owner and employer of local people if you want to be precise.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2015/10/wings-and-his-wee-blue-book-of-errors.html?m=1

If you disagree with him he is more than happy to correct anything, unlike Rev Stu who tends to ignore criticism and then abuse the person who dared tell him he was wrong. He seems like such a nice guy.

Is this not the guy who has appeared on the BBC claiming to be a finance expert when in reality at best he can be described as an amateur analyst? If so it seems he also has a history of spreading fake news on Twitter where he was forced to apologise. Might just be me getting my wires crossed though.

[James310]

Is this not the guy who has appeared on the BBC claiming to be a finance expert when in reality at best he can be described as an amateur analyst? If so it seems he also has a history of spreading fake news on Twitter where he was forced to apologise. Might just be me getting my wires crossed though.

I am not aware of that, I just read the article and it seems to expose a number of errors in the Revs analysis.

As with most of these things involving statistics, you can dress them up in many ways. Although if you believe them to be fake you can always review and let us know what is fake.

[Hibrandenburg]

I am not aware of that, I just read the article and it seems to expose a number of errors in the Revs analysis.

As with most of these things involving statistics, you can dress them up in many ways. Although if you believe them to be fake you can always review and let us know what is fake.

You've piqued my interest so I've just had a wee look at Google. Seems this guy is a rabid unionist shyster whose claims about GERS have pretty much been debunked by real experts, non less than professor Richard Murphy (Professor of Practice in International Political Economy at City,*University*of London). Would appear he also turned down the opportunity to debate the claims in his blogg on T.V..

[James310]

You've piqued my interest so I've just had a wee look at Google. Seems this guy is a rabid unionist shyster whose claims about GERS have pretty much been debunked by real experts, non less than professor Richard Murphy (Professor of Practice in International Political Economy at City,*University*of London). Would appear he also turned down the opportunity to debate the claims in his blogg on T.V..

Probably as qualified as Rev Stu then? A rabid separatist who's claims have been proven not to be true.

Andrew Wilson has repeatedly refused to debate the Growth Commission report with him, despite Kevin Hauges analysis being peer reviewed by leading economic expert's.

As I say with most topics like this it can be dressed up and cut many ways.

[The Modfather]

Is this where we are now, debating independence by proxy? Post a link to a pro independence/pro unionist blogger and then try to discredit whatever blogger you fundamentally disagree with. The joys 😒

[James310]

Is this where we are now, debating independence by proxy? Post a link to a pro independence/pro unionist blogger and then try to discredit whatever blogger you fundamentally disagree with. The joys 😒

Your right, but if someone claims everything Rev Stu says is fact then it needs challenged.

But unless anyone here is an expert themselves it gets tedious to say he is this and he is that.

Happy to move on.

[degenerated]

Is this not the guy who has appeared on the BBC claiming to be a finance expert when in reality at best he can be described as an amateur analyst? If so it seems he also has a history of spreading fake news on Twitter where he was forced to apologise. Might just be me getting my wires crossed though.

Kevin Hague, the failing pet online pet shop tycoon with the brittle ego. Absolutely no pedigree as an economist and certainly doesn't winalot of friends with his condascending attitude to anyone who points out the flaws in the dogs dinner of an analysis he puts in his blog for his unionist chums to read.

[James310]

Kevin Hague, the failing pet online pet shop tycoon with the brittle ego. Absolutely no pedigree as an economist and certainly doesn't winalot of friends with his condascending attitude to anyone who points out the flaws in the dogs dinner of an analysis he puts in his blog for his unionist chums to read.

And Rev Stu is a world renowned economic specialist in his field? Works both ways.

[Just Alf]

And Rev Stu is a world renowned economic specialist in his field? Works both ways.Just to be clear, when I'm talking about the 'wings facts' I'm meaning to original data that wings links too, to many people scoff when wings are mentioned (and possibly the guy you've linked too above as well) without looking at the actual source data being ultimately linked to.

(so many to/too's!!!)





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[JeMeSouviens]

Haha - economic debate "Rev" Stu vs Dog-food Hague. Talk about 2 baldies and a comb! :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

And Rev Stu is a world renowned economic specialist in his field? Works both ways.

He doesn't need to be. If he can bring together the raw data, then he doesn't need "leading economic experts" to back up his articles.

Stuart's biggest critics are those who have never even read a single Wings article. People who read papers like the Daily Mail and Express and haven't a clue what real investigative journalism is.

[Hibbyradge]

And Rev Stu is a world renowned economic specialist in his field? Works both ways.

Whoosh :hilarious

[CloudSquall]

Haha - economic debate "Rev" Stu vs Dog-food Hague. Talk about 2 baldies and a comb! :greengrin

Two titans up there with Keynes Vs Friedman :greengrin

[James310]

Whoosh :hilarious

No,just never found the dog references that funny, that's all.

[Hibbyradge]

No,just never found the dog references that funny, that's all.

Of course.

[ronaldo7]

He doesn't need to be. If he can bring together the raw data, then he doesn't need "leading economic experts" to back up his articles.

Stuart's biggest critics are those who have never even read a single Wings article. People who read papers like the Daily Mail and Express and haven't a clue what real investigative journalism is.

Stu's not claimed to be. Kevin Hague on the other hand. 😆 he's the full pedigree chum with bowler hats thrown in.

[Moulin Yarns]

I have not read all of this, I have no idea who set it up, I have no idea what side of the fence that it's on. But here it is.


http://www.indyrefanswers.com/

[Mibbes Aye]

I have not read all of this, I have no idea who set it up, I have no idea what side of the fence that it's on. But here it is.


http://www.indyrefanswers.com/

“I have no idea what side of the fence that it’s on...” :rotflmao:

The very first drop down is the same old same old about how fantastic it would be if Scotland was an independent nation. I think we know where the rest is going.

It doesn’t actually seem to say anything that is going to convince soft No’s, it’s the same vague and woolly appeal to heart over head that didn’t convince 55% last time.

You and it need to try harder :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49316478?__twitter_impression=true

This is a dumb idea. I get why they are doing it politically but this will cost hundreds of millions pounds to save just 300 jobs. And it will only save them temporarily. Eventually they will be lost no matter what, just like eventually Prestwick airport will be closed. And all that public money will be gone.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49316478?__twitter_impression=true

This is a dumb idea. I get why they are doing it politically but this will cost hundreds of millions pounds to save just 300 jobs. And it will only save them temporarily. Eventually they will be lost no matter what, just like eventually Prestwick airport will be closed. And all that public money will be gone.


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I think if we have one eye on independence then we also need to keep an eye on industries and services that would be necessary for an independent Scotland within the EU. It would be a dereliction of duty for the Scottish government not to do so.

[Future17]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49316478?__twitter_impression=true

This is a dumb idea. I get why they are doing it politically but this will cost hundreds of millions pounds to save just 300 jobs. And it will only save them temporarily. Eventually they will be lost no matter what, just like eventually Prestwick airport will be closed. And all that public money will be gone.


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It's not just the jobs; it's also the ferry services and the taxpayers' money which has already been spent.

[Ozyhibby]

I think if we have one eye on independence then we also need to keep an eye on industries and services that would be necessary for an independent Scotland within the EU. It would be a dereliction of duty for the Scottish government not to do so.

I don’t think either case will be crucial for an independent Scotland. Since it went into public ownership Prestwick has went from 1.1m passengers a year to less than 700k and falling. It’s costing vast sums of public money each year to support for no real benefit. We have other profitable airports in Scotland. There is no real prospect of selling it now and no way of closing it either without political damage.
It will be the exact same with this shipyard which can’t make boats competitively. Our ship building industry is gone now and I doubt it’s coming back. There is too much competition globally. It would take massive investment to rebuild the industry to a scale capable of competing and that is beyond what the govt is proposing or capable of delivering. We are spending £200m here to save 300 jobs. And that’s just the start. This business has now went bust twice in 5 years and people think its likely to be turned round by civil servants? It’s going to happen no matter what but it’s a terrible mistake and it’s going to suck money out of all our pockets for years to come, just like Prestwick.


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[Ozyhibby]

It's not just the jobs; it's also the ferry services and the taxpayers' money which has already been spent.

Throwing good money after bad.


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