Scottish Independence

[Leith Green]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4167566]It's not a rat. It just emphasises the shortcomings of the small sample sizes.

You could take 2 samples at ER today. Each 1000 people. Ask them yes or no. One sample could be 60:40 one way. The other 60:40 the other way.

What conclusion could you draw from that?[/QUOTE


Neck and neck, point taken...

[adhibs]

Got a link? My boy has just asked for the "methodology"... smartass.... so i need to appear to be intelligent. :)

not got a link but faisal islam has tweeted the age breakdown as

16:34 57% Y: 43% N, 35-54 55% Y: 45% N, 55+ 38%Y: 62%N ...over 55s just save Union

[adhibs]

Its actually addictive, not even had a bet on the football since i got in from Hibs game...

the whole referendum has completly distracted me from how ***** hibs are. I got a big reminder from being at easter road today though.

[adhibs]

heres a more indepth analysis of the panelbase result http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/panelbase-yes-edge-just-little/

[Peevemor]

I'd rather the polls indicate it being neck and neck. I don't want any potential yes voters becoming complacent.

If things really are that even, I think Yes will win the day because their voters want it more.

[OsloHibs]

I find the NO campaign truly shocking :embarrass I would want to know every extra power they would give to Scotland as they have said they would- and yet, I can't find anything online.

[Betty Boop]

The Scottish Sun coming out in favour of the Yes campaign ? Murdoch's revenge ?

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'd rather the polls indicate it being neck and neck. I don't want any potential yes voters becoming complacent.

If things really are that even, I think Yes will win the day because their voters want it more.

Massive salt with regard to any poll, I may have a dream but I really do think most undecided will flip to yes on the day.

[The Harp Awakes]

Heard today that yes campaign internal stats for my area shows undecided voters going to yes in a ratio of 7:1.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Scottish Sun coming out in favour of the Yes campaign ? Murdoch's revenge ?

Of course it is.... he's loving this :)

Ahem.... have you, eh, had any more....um.... thoughts? :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

Look mate ....... I had a ( possibly wine fuelled :greengrin ) emotional diatribe on here a few pages back some of which I regret, some of which I don't.

But all I can say after reading that load of old bollocks is that an independent Scotland would be starting off at an advantage from the word go without folk like you in it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Last night of the Proms on the BBC has certainly convinced me

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4167566]It's not a rat. It just emphasises the shortcomings of the small sample sizes.

You could take 2 samples at ER today. Each 1000 people. Ask them yes or no. One sample could be 60:40 one way. The other 60:40 the other way.

What conclusion could you draw from that?[/QUOTE


Neck and neck, point taken...

Don't think you could even say that, TBH.

You would have to know that the 2,000 were representative of all Hibbies. Age, gender, social background etc.

[Leith Green]

[QUOTE=Leith Green;4167571]

Don't think you could even say that, TBH.

You would have to know that the 2,000 were representative of all Hibbies. Age, gender, social background etc.

The one fact I take from these polls is that Support for Yes has risen over the past 4-6 weeks, and looks to have held its gains, even after the crazy past week with No throwing everything and anything at Yes

[Mon Dieu4]

BBC news at it again, today in edinburgh a better together March got thousands of people, eh nah doll it was a ****ing orange march, sleekit *******s

[Colonel_HFC]

Too stupid to run our own country? It's not been a winning formula up till now, maybe we'll get the message on time - who knows. I'll sell my vote for a tea cake and a balloon on a stick if anyone's offering.

Why has it not been a winning formula? Is your life not exactly how you want it to be? Must be the bloody English...

[OsloHibs]

BBC news at it again, today in edinburgh a better together March got thousands of people, eh nah doll it was a ****ing orange march, sleekit *******s


Was announced on TV here that it was a march against Independence. :furious:

[The Harp Awakes]

BBC news at it again, today in edinburgh a better together March got thousands of people, eh nah doll it was a ****ing orange march, sleekit *******s

Aye, heard that as well.

TBH the BBC bias used to have me raging but I just laugh at it now. They are finished in Scotland after this referendum regardless of which way it goes.

I won't believe anything they say again.

[Colonel_HFC]

Look mate ....... I had a ( possibly wine fuelled :greengrin ) emotional diatribe on here a few pages back some of which I regret, some of which I don't.

But all I can say after reading that load of old bollocks is that an independent Scotland would be starting off at an advantage from the word go without folk like you in it.

I won't be in it either way. It's just a point of view. I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree. I'm just venting / expressing / speaking (choose the verb). However, with folk like you in it, most would be better out of it... in my most humble of opinions...

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why has it not been a winning formula? Is your life not exactly how you want it to be? Must be the bloody English...

One of the biggest benefits of independence is that if it goes tits up we wont be able to blame the English, or anybody else for that matter ... you know .... like the other proper grown up countries.

[JimBHibees]

Last night of the Proms on the BBC has certainly convinced me

:faf::faf:

[NAE NOOKIE]

I won't be in it either way. It's just a point of view. I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree. I'm just venting / expressing / speaking (choose the verb). However, with folk like you in it, most would be better out of it... I'm my most humble of opinions...

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/boo%20hoo.gif

[Mibbes Aye]

One of the biggest benefits of independence is that if it goes tits up we wont be able to blame the English, or anybody else for that matter ... you know .... like the other proper grown up countries.

We're a country that, unlike the English, has managed to obsess about a stupid sectarian divide for the better part of the last one hundred and fifty years or so.

I'm not taking anything for granted in terms of how grown-up Scotland can be, independent or otherwise.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We're a country that, unlike the English, has managed to obsess about a stupid sectarian divide for the better part of the last one hundred and fifty years or so.

I'm not taking anything for granted in terms of how grown-up Scotland can be, independent or otherwise.

Every country has its crosses to bare mate ...... The sectarian divide IMO does not have the same social impact it once had, though it would be foolish to pretend it has gone away. Yes you still have the stupid marches and the crap at football, but I highly doubt what school you went to has as big an affect on job prospects as it once had, even in the west.

Don't get me wrong we have to keep working on it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Every country has its crosses to bare mate ...... The sectarian divide IMO does not have the same social impact it once had, though it would be foolish to pretend it has gone away. Yes you still have the stupid marches and the crap at football, but I highly doubt what school you went to has as big an affect on job prospects as it once had, even in the west.

Don't get me wrong we have to keep working on it.

:agree:

[Leith Green]

Jesus, that nick robinson is getting pelters on his twitter.. Thoroughly deserved in my opinion, the guy has been shown up for exactly what he is..

[CropleyWasGod]

Jesus, that nick robinson is getting pelters on his twitter.. Thoroughly deserved in my opinion, the guy has been shown up for exactly what he is..

You seen the front page of tomorrow's Herald?

[Leith Green]

You seen the front page of tomorrow's Herald?

Brilliant!

[CropleyWasGod]

Brilliant!

Sorry, think I posted the wrong pic.

This is the one I meant to post:-

https://twitter.com/newsundayherald/status/510901020252438528/photo/1

[SteveHFC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

[degenerated]

Why has it not been a winning formula? Is your life not exactly how you want it to be? Must be the bloody English...
We live in a country where we've seen exponential growth in food banks, children living in poverty, indiscriminate attacks on the disabled, the bedroom tax, billions set to be frittered away on weapons of mass destruction, mps troughing expenses at record levels, the gap between the rich and poor widening at an alarming rate.
Aye, it's exactly how I wanted it.

You clearly can't see that for most of us voting yes it's less about "me" and more about "us"

[MyJo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

That is outrageous. I'm getting properly disgusted by some of the headlines and coverage from the pro-union media and better together campaign.

My only hope is that the scaremongering and media bias is so obvious and downright desperate that the undecideds can see it fir what it really is and turn towards a yes vote and let us have nothing more to do with these contemptible people.

[jodjam]

The telegraph headline is disgusting. These are educated people making decisions to run these stories. Truly awful

[Leith Green]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

Just totally wrong on so many levels. Throw into that the amount of serviceman who were sent out to their deaths fighting wars in Iraq and afghanistan that were never about preserving the Union..

This paper should be ashamed of itself , especially on the day a Scotsman was discovered to have been beheaded.

[JimBHibees]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

Quite simply sc@m. No depths these t@ssers won't plummet. Ironic as I seen yesterday a bit about the thousands of Sikhs who had died in the wars.

[Leith Green]

What they fail to grasp is that this referendum is about the future, not the past. This is going to prove their undoing, as thats the way people are looking at this. If that is their argument then hell mend them.

Future over past, hope above fear, confidence over insecurity, a voice louder than a whisper, the poor as much as the wealthy...

[BroxburnHibee]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

Prepare yourself for their desperation to get even worse over the next 5 days. That is absolutely shocking!!!!!!!

[Leith Green]

Prepare yourself for their desperation to get even worse over the next 5 days. That is absolutely shocking!!!!!!!

Do you know what, both campaigns and the media should agree to a day off of the referendum tomorrow as a mark of respect to this Scotsmans family and friends

[Colonel_HFC]

One of the biggest benefits of independence is that if it goes tits up we wont be able to blame the English, or anybody else for that matter ... you know .... like the other proper grown up countries.

If only that were true... I have a feeling that if independence was a disaster Salmond and all the other Yes voters would be pointing south and whining about it not being their own fault.

[Colonel_HFC]

We live in a country where we've seen exponential growth in food banks, children living in poverty, indiscriminate attacks on the disabled, the bedroom tax, billions set to be frittered away on weapons of mass destruction, mps troughing expenses at record levels, the gap between the rich and poor widening at an alarming rate.
Aye, it's exactly how I wanted it.

You clearly can't see that for most of us voting yes it's less about "me" and more about "us"

And it's all someone else's fault. I am looking forward to see who gets the blame if independence happens. It could be quite amusing I suppose.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

Oh dear. Gutter journalism.

[Betty Boop]

Of course it is.... he's loving this :)

Ahem.... have you, eh, had any more....um.... thoughts? :greengrin


Yea a definite NO for me.

[Colonel_HFC]

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/boo%20hoo.gif

Don't cry. Or do. Doesn't change much.

[degenerated]

And it's all someone else's fault. I am looking forward to see who gets the blame if independence happens. It could be quite amusing I suppose.
Thankfully, as you keep reminding us, you'll not be here.

[Colonel_HFC]

Thankfully, as you keep reminding us, you'll not be here.

But a lot of people will. And, assuming the vote is Yes, it is likely to be a small margin of victory. That means that nearly half the people there will not want these changes.

So yes I am extremely thankful that I will not be there should too many people make a dumb decision. I am glad that I am not there anyway. And I am also glad that I don't need a particular nationality to define myself. It's actually pretty sad that so many people feel the need to have that.

[Moulin Yarns]

You seen the front page of tomorrow's Herald?


I am on the front page of the Sunday Herald :thumbsup:

[NAE NOOKIE]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxcSJf2IUAAVoiG.jpg

Disgusting

You would have to dig up the gutter and look underneath to find where that came from.

Perhaps the Gurkhas who have died in their thousands fighting in our wars for over a century would be entitled to ask where the UKs regard and gratitude for its soldiers was when they had to rely on a TV personality ( the magnificent Joanna Lumley ) and the European court before the UK would listen to their pleas for justice on pensions.

[southsider]

Supprised not one paper had a pic of the banner at the O/O march. About them and KKK. Sick. Made me now a YES man and most likely a few thousand others.

[NAE NOOKIE]

But a lot of people will. And, assuming the vote is Yes, it is likely to be a small margin of victory. That means that nearly half the people there will not want these changes.

So yes I am extremely thankful that I will not be there should too many people make a dumb decision. I am glad that I am not there anyway. And I am also glad that I don't need a particular nationality to define myself. It's actually pretty sad that so many people feel the need to have that.

Well on your first point that's the bloomin' trouble with democracy mate ..... perhaps we should do away with it. I haven't got the government I have voted for even once since my first vote in 1979.

For most folk nationality matters ...... it does not define you as a person, your individual character does that .. I have English, Welsh and Canadian friends .... we are all proud of our nationality, but that is of utterly no consequence as to why we became. or remain, friends.

You have been pretty coy about which countries hospitality you currently enjoy .... what are their views on nationality and would they correspond with yours I wonder?

A young girl in need of a lung transplant climbed the castle rock a day ago to pin up a Yes sign with her oxygen tubes sticking up her nose from the bottle she had to carry .... her anger at baseless scare stories from BT about cross border transplant services stopping prompted her action .......... perhaps you would like to tell her about her "dumb decision".

[#FromTheCapital]

But a lot of people will. And, assuming the vote is Yes, it is likely to be a small margin of victory. That means that nearly half the people there will not want these changes.

So yes I am extremely thankful that I will not be there should too many people make a dumb decision. I am glad that I am not there anyway. And I am also glad that I don't need a particular nationality to define myself. It's actually pretty sad that so many people feel the need to have that.

Which is why I think for a referendum, with consequences and change of this magnitude, should require a clear majority victory for it to go through. Instead of the highly possible 51 - 49 split. Imagine trying to set up a newly established country with slightly under half of the population against it. Not the best way to start really. A lot of people will actually want independent Scotland to fail, just so they can say 'told you so'. And yes I know this is democracy before anyone points it out.

[Leith Green]

Which is why I think for a referendum, with consequences and change of this magnitude, should require a clear majority victory for it to go through. Instead of the highly possible 51 - 49 split. Imagine trying to set up a newly established country with slightly under half of the population against it. Not the best way to start really. A lot of people will actually want independent Scotland to fail, just so they can say 'told you so'. And yes I know this is democracy before anyone points it out.

Thats ludicrous, and utter pish.. In your book the minority would win. You do realise how stupid that is eh?

[#FromTheCapital]

Thats ludicrous, and utter pish.. In your book the minority would win. You do realise how stupid that is eh?

Calm down dear. A clear majority to win, with perhaps a stipulation that if they got over 50% then another vote would be held within so many years, along with more powers or devo max in the interim. Didn't expect that to be a popular post btw :greengrin
The main point is that it simply can't be a good thing forming a new country with marginally under half of the population against the change. We'd be starting off as a fractured nation.

[CropleyWasGod]

Calm down dear. A clear majority to win, with perhaps a stipulation that if they got over 50% then another vote would be held within so many years, along with more powers or devo max in the interim. Didn't expect that to be a popular post btw :greengrin
The main point is that it simply can't be a good thing forming a new country with marginally under half of the population against the change. We'd be starting off as a fractured nation.
George Robertson and the Scots UKIP guy are saying today that a narrow win for Yes would not be a mandate for independence.
Sorry, but them's the rules. Can't change them just because one doesn't like the outcome.

As a side issue, is it just me that us shocked by how much of a slaver Robertson has become?

[southsider]

George Robertson and the Scots UKIP guy are saying today that a narrow win for Yes would not be a mandate for independence.
Sorry, but them's the rules. Can't change them just because one doesn't like the outcome.

As a side issue, is it just me that us shocked by how much of a slaver Robertson has become?
Was in today's Herald. Saying YES require 60% for a mandate. Shows how desperate NO are becoming. Great piece by Ian Bell, who is a big Hibs fan, in that paper. Proper journalist.

[Beefster]

Perhaps the Gurkhas who have died in their thousands fighting in our wars for over a century would be entitled to ask where the UKs regard and gratitude for its soldiers was when they had to rely on a TV personality ( the magnificent Joanna Lumley ) and the European court before the UK would listen to their pleas for justice on pensions.

Pretty low chat and really isn't any better than what the Telegraph did today IMHO. Many folk, including myself, supported the fight to get justice for the Ghurkas for a long time before it became fashionable.

You might find this hard to take but, and it'll even be the case in an independent Scotland, governments don't always do the right thing or listen to their citizens. Aside from that, the UK government isn't the UK any more than Salmond is Scotland.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Calm down dear. A clear majority to win, with perhaps a stipulation that if they got over 50% then another vote would be held within so many years, along with more powers or devo max in the interim. Didn't expect that to be a popular post btw :greengrin
The main point is that it simply can't be a good thing forming a new country with marginally under half of the population against the change. We'd be starting off as a fractured nation.

For decades the UK has been run by political parties who polled less than 50% of the popular vote and have used that mandate to impose unfair policies and take us into illegal wars. Ask them about PR for example and wait to get spat on.

I have faith that if it is Yes people will come together for the good of Scotland .... I hope the same if its No.

Its one thing worrying about blood on the streets ........... its quite another wishing it so like our friend the Colonel. .... Not accusing you of that by the way FTC.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Pretty low chat and really isn't any better than what the Telegraph did today IMHO. Many folk, including myself, supported the fight to get justice for the Ghurkas for a long time before it became fashionable.

You might find this hard to take but, and it'll even be the case in an independent Scotland, governments don't always do the right thing or listen to their citizens. Aside from that, the UK government isn't the UK any more than Salmond is Scotland.

That's the thing about stuff like that though Beefster ...... It goads people to respond in kind. In this case an attempt at moral blackmail using the armed forces ...... in the context it was used I don't think my point was unreasonable as it happens.

[#FromTheCapital]

For decades the UK has been run by political parties who polled less than 50% of the popular vote and have used that mandate to impose unfair policies and take us into illegal wars. Ask them about PR for example and wait to get spat on.

I have faith that if it is Yes people will come together for the good of Scotland .... I hope the same if its No.

Its one thing worrying about blood on the streets ........... its quite another wishing it so like our friend the Colonel. .... Not accusing you of that by the way FTC.

Is it not the case the the SNP polled less than 50% and used that mandate to bring this referendum about? Not quite the same as what you're saying but you get the jist.

I hope you're right and people do unite once we are clear how things will pan out. If not then problems lie ahead.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Is it not the case the the SNP polled less than 50% and used that mandate to bring this referendum about? Not quite the same as what you're saying but you get the jist.

I hope you're right and people do unite once we are clear how things will pan out. If not then problems lie ahead.

Yes ...... Things don't always work out badly :greengrin

I suppose the one thing about this is that there isn't more than one option to split the vote ..... Yes / No ..... Mind you I bet there are a few BT folk who wish they hadn't bumped the Devo Max option now.

[#FromTheCapital]

Yes ...... Things don't always work out badly :greengrin

:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Which is why I think for a referendum, with consequences and change of this magnitude, should require a clear majority victory for it to go through. Instead of the highly possible 51 - 49 split. Imagine trying to set up a newly established country with slightly under half of the population against it. Not the best way to start really. A lot of people will actually want independent Scotland to fail, just so they can say 'told you so'. And yes I know this is democracy before anyone points it out.

So your unhappy that a large minority might have to lump it whilst the small majority get to do things their way. A bit hypocritical considering that's what's been happening in Scotland for the last 300 years, only the boot's been on the other foot.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes ...... Things don't always work out badly :greengrin

I suppose the one thing about this is that there isn't more than one option to split the vote ..... Yes / No ..... Mind you I bet there are a few BT folk who wish they hadn't bumped the Devo Max option now.

I'm some people's heads Devo Max is still on the table if you vote No. The riders of the apocalypse have achieved that if nothing else. Fear works.

[#FromTheCapital]

So your unhappy that a large minority might have to lump it whilst the small majority get to do things their way. A bit hypocritical considering that's what's been happening in Scotland for the last 300 years, only the boot's been on the other foot.

I'm uncomfortable with the vote appearing to be so close, yes. That's your view. Back in reality, every scot alive today was born as a uk citizen and as such have set their lives and business' up on the rules and regulations set by the uk government. It's not perfect (what country/government is?) but the level of disruption which is likely to be caused by a split of the union is against a lot of peoples wishes, especially with no guarantees or clarity on how things are going to be post split.

[Just Alf]

I'm some people's heads Devo Max is still on the table if you vote No. The riders of the apocalypse have achieved that if nothing else. Fear works.

The last reiteration of "more powers" was the Calman Commission, the changes which it recommended (some of them anyway) will be delivered in 2015, 8 years after it commenced.

Is that how long we'll be waiting after a "No" ? :cb

Edit: the clock started ticking after the parties agreed it should happen etc (apart from the SNP) .... As so aptly put by William Hague there's not even a cross party agreement as yet, far less a governmental agreement to begin the process... So at the moment the clock's not even wound up to begin it's ticking!

[Phil D. Rolls]

But a lot of people will. And, assuming the vote is Yes, it is likely to be a small margin of victory. That means that nearly half the people there will not want these changes.

So yes I am extremely thankful that I will not be there should too many people make a dumb decision. I am glad that I am not there anyway. And I am also glad that I don't need a particular nationality to define myself. It's actually pretty sad that so many people feel the need to have that.

Tell me, how do you define yourself? I've got a few ideas, but I doubt you would agree.

ps have you ever lived in Hong Kong?

[Colonel_HFC]

Well on your first point that's the bloomin' trouble with democracy mate ..... perhaps we should do away with it. I haven't got the government I have voted for even once since my first vote in 1979.

For most folk nationality matters ...... it does not define you as a person, your individual character does that .. I have English, Welsh and Canadian friends .... we are all proud of our nationality, but that is of utterly no consequence as to why we became. or remain, friends.

You have been pretty coy about which countries hospitality you currently enjoy .... what are their views on nationality and would they correspond with yours I wonder?

A young girl in need of a lung transplant climbed the castle rock a day ago to pin up a Yes sign with her oxygen tubes sticking up her nose from the bottle she had to carry .... her anger at baseless scare stories from BT about cross border transplant services stopping prompted her action .......... perhaps you would like to tell her about her "dumb decision".

Just because someone feels strongly about something does not make them right about it. And, yes, I think it is a dumb decision - being sick does not change that.

Just because lots of folk think something is important does not mean that it is.

Being proud of one's nationality is actually a slightly strange thing. What's to be proud of? Being born somewhere... Everyone is born somewhere and it's not an achievement - so why be proud of it? It's no more of an achievement than say having a nose. Although I am glad that I have a nose - it's hardly something I'm "proud" of.

Nationalism is also dumb in my opinion, regardless of where it is. Where I live now is irrelevant - it's not part of the UK anyway.

I also don't care what the people from the country where I live think about nationality. Why would I? That said, if it started becoming extreme and small minded to the extent where they were going to vote for something that would impact many people's lives there (for the worse a I saw it) then I would leave here. Fortunately I don't see anything so significant happening anytime in the near future.

[Colonel_HFC]

Tell me, how do you define yourself? I've got a few ideas, but I doubt you would agree.

ps have you ever lived in Hong Kong?

I define myself by how I act and what I do/achieve in my life - not where I happened to be born (that was random and is absolutely not an achievement).

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm some people's heads Devo Max is still on the table if you vote No. The riders of the apocalypse have achieved that if nothing else. Fear works.

They promised us the earth, but all I want is our land

[#FromTheCapital]

Just because someone feels strongly about something does not make them right about it. And, yes, I think it is a dumb decision - being sick does not change that.

Just because lots of folk think something is important does not mean that it is.

Being proud of one's nationality is actually a slightly strange thing. What's to be proud of? Being born somewhere... Everyone is born somewhere and it's not an achievement - so why be proud of it? It's no more of an achievement than say having a nose. Although I am glad that I have a nose - it's hardly something I'm "proud" of.

Nationalism is also dumb in my opinion, regardless of where it is. Where I live now is irrelevant - it's not part of the UK anyway.

I also don't care what the people from the country where I live think about nationality. Why would I? That said, if it started becoming extreme and small minded to the extent where they were going to vote for something that would impact many people's lives there (for the worse a I saw it) then I would leave here. Fortunately I don't see anything so significant happening anytime in the near future.

Agree completely.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm uncomfortable with the vote appearing to be so close, yes. That's your view. Back in reality, every scot alive today was born as a uk citizen and as such have set their lives and business' up on the rules and regulations set by the uk government. It's not perfect (what country/government is?) but the level of disruption which is likely to be caused by a split of the union is against a lot of peoples wishes, especially with no guarantees or clarity on how things are going to be post split.
This thing about disruption.

For most of us, our daily lives would be virtually unchanged. Any changes that there are would be gradual and almost imperceptible.

[Colonel_HFC]

This thing about disruption.

For most of us, our daily lives would be virtually unchanged. Any changes that there are would be gradual and almost imperceptible.

Things gradually going to s**t isn't much better than it happening suddenly...

[CropleyWasGod]

Things gradually going to s**t isn't much better than it happening suddenly...

Is that what will happen?

[Moulin Yarns]

Things gradually going to s**t isn't much better than it happening suddenly...

Can't argue with that. The last 40 years or more of Westminster governments proved that.

The slow downward spiral.

[Colonel_HFC]

Is that what will happen?

In my and many other people's opinion, yes.

[Moulin Yarns]

In my and many other people's opinion, yes.

Then we, the people of Scotland, given the opportunity can change things for the better, or continue to accept what is served up and moan about it.

[Colonel_HFC]

Then we, the people of Scotland, given the opportunity can change things for the better, or continue to accept what is served up and moan about it.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people in Scotland will continue to moan and blame others regardless of what happens. If independence happens then they will moan about and blame whatever government is left in Scotland. Or they will find a way to blame outside influences. Cry baby adults are a little too old to grow out of it - changing government or anything else is not the answer. To stop being a whining b***h the change has to come from within.

[Colonel_HFC]

Can't argue with that. The last 40 years or more of Westminster governments proved that.

The slow downward spiral.

Don't see it myself. No worse than many other places. Just whining people looking to blame others for not being happy with their lives.

[Leith Green]

Don't see it myself. No worse than many other places. Just whining people looking to blame others for not being happy with their lives.


And people who are trying to set about making the changes required to make things better.

[#FromTheCapital]

This thing about disruption.

For most of us, our daily lives would be virtually unchanged. Any changes that there are would be gradual and almost imperceptible.

So a change of currency, or increased prices/tax would be imperceptible?

[CropleyWasGod]

So a change of currency, or increased prices/tax would be imperceptible?

What change of currency?

What increased prices?

As for tax, the only change mooted is a reduction in CT.

[#FromTheCapital]

What change of currency?

What increased prices?

As for tax, the only change mooted is a reduction in CT.

Not saying it's a definite, but it can't be ruled out either can it?

[CropleyWasGod]

Not saying it's a definite, but it can't be ruled out either can it?

And neither can price reductions.

There's certainly no sign of any change to the currency.

[Colonel_HFC]

And people who are trying to set about making the changes required to make things better.

It won't make a difference. Just other people to blame.

[#FromTheCapital]

And neither can price reductions.

There's certainly no sign of any change to the currency.

Point taken.

This is all opinion (well researched or otherwise) at the end of the day. And opinion isn't enough for me and many others to gamble on.

[Leith Green]

It won't make a difference. Just other people to blame.



Says who? You? The difference is that if we are not being governed properly then at least we can vote to do something about it, and it'll actually count

An example would be when we have an election in an independent Scotland, you can guarantee that the turnout will be far higher than the recent general elections we have seen.

[Leith Green]

Just saw thousands protest at BBC Glasgow HQ over their biased reporting of the referendum.

[DaveF]

Just saw thousands protest at BBC Glasgow HQ over their biased reporting of the referendum.

And the BBC have reported on it :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29196912

[Leith Green]

And the BBC have reported on it :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29196912

Aye, tucked away in the scotland west section. They also said up to a 1000 protestors, but it was several thousand according to STV news

[Peevemor]

Aye, tucked away in the scotland west section. They also said up to a 1000 protestors, but it was several thousand according to STV news

They don't like it up 'em!

[Sergey]

And the BBC have reported on it :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29196912


Aye, tucked away in the scotland west section. They also said up to a 1000 protestors, but it was several thousand according to STV news


They don't like it up 'em!

The BBC updated their website. The image below is what originally accompanied the story.

13450

[Colonel_HFC]

Says who? You? The difference is that if we are not being governed properly then at least we can vote to do something about it, and it'll actually count

An example would be when we have an election in an independent Scotland, you can guarantee that the turnout will be far higher than the recent general elections we have seen.

Yes, I say. That's the point of a forum - people saying things.

Obviously you don't agree, and that's another thing that happens on discussion forums.

I just think people often spend their whole lives trying to find people or things to blame for their own problems. And I don't think Scotland being independent will change that. It will just give a lot of people some extra annoying s**t to deal with.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes, I say. That's the point of a forum - people saying things.

Obviously you don't agree, and that's another thing that happens on discussion forums.

I just think people often spend their whole lives trying to find people or things to blame for their own problems. And I don't think Scotland being independent will change that. It will just give a lot of people some extra annoying s**t to deal with.

It will actually give all of us less annoying sh*t to deal with. One of the reasons I'm voting Yes is that, for a nation of 5m people, we have too many levels of Government. We can get rid of the cowboys in Westminster, and have more time to deal with the cowboys at Holyrood.

[Bristolhibby]

I'm uncomfortable with the vote appearing to be so close, yes. That's your view. Back in reality, every scot alive today was born as a uk citizen and as such have set their lives and business' up on the rules and regulations set by the uk government. It's not perfect (what country/government is?) but the level of disruption which is likely to be caused by a split of the union is against a lot of peoples wishes, especially with no guarantees or clarity on how things are going to be post split.

Seriously? For disruption, read opportunity.

J

[DaveF]

The BBC updated their website. The image below is what originally accompanied the story.

13450

In the interests of clarity (because I'm not in any way biased) that set of photo's alludes to a demo yesterday (13th) in Glasgow.

The link I posted was about today's march to Pacific Quay.

[DaveF]

Yes, I say. That's the point of a forum - people saying things.

Obviously you don't agree, and that's another thing that happens on discussion forums.

I just think people often spend their whole lives trying to find people or things to blame for their own problems. And I don't think Scotland being independent will change that. It will just give a lot of people some extra annoying s**t to deal with.

Spot on mate. You've done just that for the last couple of pages :agree:

[#FromTheCapital]

Seriously? For disruption, read opportunity.

J

Yes seriously. Disruption is very likely, particularly for Scottish businesses. After that there MAY be opportunity, or it MAY go tits up. Nobody knows.

[Colonel_HFC]

Spot on mate. You've done just that for the last couple of pages :agree:

That's pretty stupid. I'm not blaming anyone for anything. Where did I once say anything like that? I'm just observing the situation and expressing what I think about it.

I'm not complaining about Westminster, government, the BBC etc. I just don't think voting Yes is a very good idea. And I don't think it will solve anyone in Scotland's problems. I think it will add problems (at least practical problems) to many people's lives.

That is not blaming. It's just expressing a point of view. And I really don't blame anyone else for problems in my life.

[DaveF]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people in Scotland will continue to moan and blame others regardless of what happens. If independence happens then they will moan about and blame whatever government is left in Scotland. Or they will find a way to blame outside influences. Cry baby adults are a little too old to grow out of it - changing government or anything else is not the answer. To stop being a whining b***h the change has to come from within.


Don't see it myself. No worse than many other places. Just whining people looking to blame others for not being happy with their lives.


It won't make a difference. Just other people to blame.


Yes, I say. That's the point of a forum - people saying things.

Obviously you don't agree, and that's another thing that happens on discussion forums.

I just think people often spend their whole lives trying to find people or things to blame for their own problems. And I don't think Scotland being independent will change that. It will just give a lot of people some extra annoying s**t to deal with.


That's pretty stupid. I'm not blaming anyone for anything. Where did I once say anything like that? I'm just observing the situation and expressing what I think about

I'm not complaining about Westminster, government, the BBC etc. I just don't think voting Yes is a very good idea. And I don't think it will solve anyone in Scotland's problems. I think it will add problems (at least practical problems) to many people's lives.

That is not blaming. It's just expressing a point of view. And I really don't blame anyone else for problems in my life.

I've no idea :rolleyes:

[Colonel_HFC]

I've no idea :rolleyes:

Even stupider. That's not ME blaming anyone. That is just me using the word "blame" to describe how I think other people act.

Try and understand: I am not blaming anyone. I think that a lot of people do. And I don't think a Yes vote will change that at all.

Comprender?

[Moulin Yarns]

Even stupider. That's not ME blaming anyone. That is just me using the word "blame" to describe how I think other people act.

Try and understand: I am not blaming anyone. I think that a lot of people do. And I don't think l


Po po opportunity Yes vote will change that at all.

Comprender?

After Independence I think a lot of people will accept that the buck stops at Holyrood. Face it, the smaller number of MSPs will be more accountable than all the Westminster MPs

[Stranraer]

I've campaigned in the 2010 GE, 2011 SP election, AV referendum and council elections, but never worked so hard on a campaign as I am just now.

Absolutely shattered. I was in town all day yesterday knocking doors, out since 9 this morning (hungover) leafleting and apart from being spat at (not on) by a Rangers fans the response has been very positive.

I'm really enjoying the campaign, it's so lively.

[CropleyWasGod]

After Independence I think a lot of people will accept that the buck stops at Holyrood. Face it, the smaller number of MSPs will be more accountable than all the Westminster MPs

They will also NOT be held accountable for what happens at Westminster. Too often in the past, people have voted in Holyrood based on what happens down South. That's unfair IMO.

[southsider]

After Independence I think a lot of people will accept that the buck stops at Holyrood. Face it, the smaller number of MSPs will be more accountable than all the Westminster MPs
The Scottish westminster mp's all loose their jobs right ? (but with a pension for life). No wonder New Labour are wetting themselves.

[Leith Green]

I've campaigned in the 2010 GE, 2011 SP election, AV referendum and council elections, but never worked so hard on a campaign as I am just now.

Absolutely shattered. I was in town all day yesterday knocking doors, out since 9 this morning (hungover) leafleting and apart from being spat at (not on) by a Rangers fans the response has been very positive.

I'm really enjoying the campaign, it's so lively.

Not sure if you will know this but i ll ask you anyway, how does the Yes campaigns internal polling/canvassing work? I have read various snippets about them, and it seems they are showing positive results

[CropleyWasGod]

The Scottish westminster mp's all loose their jobs right ? (but with a pension for life). No wonder New Labour are wetting themselves.

This is another side-effect.

The Unionist parties tend to have their "best" people at Westminster. All of them would be looking for a job. If they were parachuted into Holyrood, in theory that raises the standard of politician and debate.

[johnbc70]

I have tried to stay out of the debate for a few days but cannot help myself. As a No supporter then I think the BT campaign over the last few days has been truly awful. I believe it will have the opposite effect to what they want and will turn No into Yes and many undecided into Yes.

If it's Yes and I think that's more likely as the days tick down then they only have themselves to blame.

If it is Yes then I will get behind it 100% and work with everyone to make Scotland a better place as that is what we ALL want and share a common goal on (and hating the Jambos)

[CropleyWasGod]

I have tried to stay out of the debate for a few days but cannot help myself. As a No supporter then I think the BT campaign over the last few days has been truly awful. I believe it will have the opposite effect to what they want and will turn No into Yes and many undecided into Yes.

If it's Yes and I think that's more likely as the days tick down then they only have themselves to blame.

If it is Yes then I will get behind it 100% and work with everyone to make Scotland a better place as that is what we ALL want and share a common goal on (and hating the Jambos)

What in particular over the last few days?

I'm a Yes, but I'm intrigued as to why you say "only" then. To me, there have been major problems with it for months.

[#FromTheCapital]

Seen this survey on twitter and find it quite interesting....

@ScotlandNow: Take part in our Twitter vote on #indyref. RT for #Yes or FAV for #No
http://t.co/DM6rfGujG0 http://t.co/IZ1343TNLZ


Currently there are 12.4k favourites (no votes) and just shy of 7k retweets (yes votes). What I find interesting is that I have personally found yes voters to be far more vocal on social media. This suggests to me that there are many silent no voters, trying to stay out of the debates. It would be interesting to see the same survey in reverse though. Ie. retweet for no and favourite for yes.

[Leith Green]

I have tried to stay out of the debate for a few days but cannot help myself. As a No supporter then I think the BT campaign over the last few days has been truly awful. I believe it will have the opposite effect to what they want and will turn No into Yes and many undecided into Yes.

If it's Yes and I think that's more likely as the days tick down then they only have themselves to blame.

If it is Yes then I will get behind it 100% and work with everyone to make Scotland a better place as that is what we ALL want and share a common goal on (and hating the Jambos)

The one thing I have noticed over the past 6 weeks is the amount of people who when asked before didnt have a clue, are pretty much all going with Yes. Most of the Nos have been just that from the off, this is what gives me the belief that Yes could win this. The ratio of people who are voting Yes compared to 2 months ago is massive in my opinion

[johnbc70]

What in particular over the last few days?

I'm a Yes, but I'm intrigued as to why you say "only" then. To me, there have been major problems with it for months.

I think the reference to the soldiers who died in the wars, the Michael Groves reference to Dunblane etc. I just don't see what that has to do with the future of Scotland. I don't think there have been problems for months otherwise they would not have had such a big lead up until what seems like only a few weeks ago, but the last week since the poll that came out with Yes in the lead it has been pretty poor.

[Leith Green]

Seen this survey on twitter and find it quite interesting....

@ScotlandNow: Take part in our Twitter vote on #indyref. RT for #Yes or FAV for #No
http://t.co/DM6rfGujG0 http://t.co/IZ1343TNLZ

Dont quite get it mate?
Currently there are 12.4k favourites (no votes) and just shy of 7k retweets (yes votes). What I find interesting is that I have personally found yes voters to be far more vocal on social media. This suggests to me that there are many silent no voters, trying to stay out of the debates. It would be interesting to see the same survey in reverse though. Ie. retweet for no and favourite for yes.

Suppose it depends on when the tweeting was done??

[Beefster]

Aye, tucked away in the scotland west section. They also said up to a 1000 protestors, but it was several thousand according to STV news

The story is on the front page of the BBC site, if you have your location updated (and it's Scottish). It's not 'tucked away', they categorise their news. Unless you think some folk moaning about the BBC is up there with terrorists beheading a hostage or what the leaders of the referendum sides are saying, it's in the right place.

[steakbake]

I was canvassing today for GreenYes. I was in leith, restalrig, lochend and ultimately, the new town. The reception in anywhere other than the new town was overwhelmingly positive for yes. New Town was more mixed but still plenty of Yes voters.

I have a feeling on the day, that yes is going to carry it. Just - but by enough.

Inshallah I'm right.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think the reference to the soldiers who died in the wars, the Michael Groves reference to Dunblane etc. I just don't see what that has to do with the future of Scotland. I don't think there have been problems for months otherwise they would not have had such a big lead up until what seems like only a few weeks ago, but the last week since the poll that came out with Yes in the lead it has been pretty poor.

Yeah, those things don't help.

However, I think the problems go back much further. I understand that it's very difficult to promote a "negative" message, but I can't help thinking that the big lead must have bred complacency. The reaction of Westminster last weekend (which looked like panic to me) bears that out.

[CropleyWasGod]

I was canvassing today for GreenYes. I was in leith, restalrig, lochend and ultimately, the new town. The reception in anywhere other than the new town was overwhelmingly positive for yes. New Town was more mixed.

I have a feeling on the day, that yes is going to carry it. Just - but by enough.

Inshallah I'm right.

Inshallah.

[steakbake]

Suppose it depends on when the tweeting was done??

and where the original request was from... I'd be happy if BT feel they have a commanding lead. Any complacency on their side is welcome. TBH, they look rattled.

[Leith Green]

The story is on the front page of the BBC site, if you have your location updated (and it's Scottish). It's not 'tucked away', they categorise their news. Unless you think some folk moaning about the BBC is up there with terrorists beheading a hostage or what the leaders of the referendum sides are saying, it's in the right place.

The point is they seem to categorise anything negative towards Yes as their main headlines, anything other than that does not get the same coverage.. I don't know how you can disagree with that. Also please don't try and make out I'm in anyway downing what happened to the poor guy in Syria.

[CapitalGreen]

Seen this survey on twitter and find it quite interesting....

@ScotlandNow: Take part in our Twitter vote on #indyref. RT for #Yes or FAV for #No
http://t.co/DM6rfGujG0 http://t.co/IZ1343TNLZ



Currently there are 12.4k favourites (no votes) and just shy of 7k retweets (yes votes). What I find interesting is that I have personally found yes voters to be far more vocal on social media. This suggests to me that there are many silent no voters, trying to stay out of the debates. It would be interesting to see the same survey in reverse though. Ie. retweet for no and favourite for yes.

...and you dismissed my poll that was carried out by a professional polling company. LOL.

Are only eligible voters allowed to take part in this poll?

[steakbake]

The point is they seem to categorise anything negative towards Yes as their main headlines, anything other than that does not get the same coverage.. I don't know how you can disagree with that. Also please don't try and make out I'm in anyway downing what happened to the poor guy in Syria.

Has anyone read the theory (non conspiracy) that these executions have taken place at the same time? The next guy from the British isles will be paraded online sadly, after he's already dead.

Maybe take this to another thread... but was interested in people's take.

[Leith Green]

[QUOTE=steakbake;4168938]I was canvassing today for GreenYes. I was in leith, restalrig, lochend and ultimately, the new town. The reception in anywhere other than the new town was overwhelmingly positive for yes. New Town was more mixed but still plenty of Yes voters.

I have a feeling on the day, that yes is going to carry it. Just - but by enough.

The first 3 areas you mention are my local areas, the ratio of Yes to know is massive. Obviously this will work in reverse in other areas. past few weeks its become massive about here

[GlesgaeHibby]

Was out in the meadows today, tremendous atmosphere. Hundreds of yes supporters out, Brian Cox out supporting too. Better together stand had about 4 people manning it, and nobody interested in it!!!

[steakbake]

Was out in the meadows today, tremendous atmosphere. Hundreds of yes supporters out, Brian Cox out supporting too. Better together stand had about 4 people manning it, and nobody interested in it!!!

They were down at inverleith. A strange gathering.

What bothers me about this whole debate and the reason it's so divisive is because if you're sold on either yes or no, you simply can't understand why the other side think they do.

With party politics, I generally get why people feel the way they do - even the occasional Tory. But with this, I just don't understand why anyone would be for BT. I'm sure there are others on BT who might feel the same way.

That said, just because it's divisive doesn't mean that the question shouldn't be asked.

[#FromTheCapital]

...and you dismissed my poll that was carried out by a professional polling company. LOL.

Are only eligible voters allowed to take part in this poll?

This is more just a survey rather than an official poll. And don't talk pish please. The survey you posted was invalid because it was based on three options; yes, no and devo max. Of course we all know that devo max is not an option on the ballot paper.

Again it's just a random survey on social media there's no rules about eligible voters or anything. I only posted it because I found it interesting that a social media survey showed a fairly convincing lead for no, when it seems apparent to me that the yes campaign is far more vocal on social media. Fwiw I tend to believe the majority of polls that suggest things are neck and neck.

[The Harp Awakes]

I have tried to stay out of the debate for a few days but cannot help myself. As a No supporter then I think the BT campaign over the last few days has been truly awful. I believe it will have the opposite effect to what they want and will turn No into Yes and many undecided into Yes.

If it's Yes and I think that's more likely as the days tick down then they only have themselves to blame.

If it is Yes then I will get behind it 100% and work with everyone to make Scotland a better place as that is what we ALL want and share a common goal on (and hating the Jambos)

A pretty fair and honest assessment.

I think the remaining undecided voters will mostly go to yes but I'm not confident enough to predict a winner either way. Out and about in East Lothian/East Edinburgh today and everywhere you go you see yes cards in folks windows. I agree with another poster though about the amount of silent no voters. Not an easy one to call.

[CapitalGreen]

A pretty fair and honest assessment.

I think the remaining undecided voters will mostly go to yes but I'm not confident enough to predict a winner either way. Out and about in East Lothian/East Edinburgh today and everywhere you go you see yes cards in folks windows. I agree with another poster though about the amount of silent no voters. Not an easy one to call.

I'd agree with the last part, none of the few No voters I know would have window signs. But I'd also add that the majority of Yes voters I know wouldn't either.

[WestEndHibee]

I've campaigned in the 2010 GE, 2011 SP election, AV referendum and council elections, but never worked so hard on a campaign as I am just now.

Absolutely shattered. I was in town all day yesterday knocking doors, out since 9 this morning (hungover) leafleting and apart from being spat at (not on) by a Rangers fans the response has been very positive.

I'm really enjoying the campaign, it's so lively.


You guys are incredible in the effort you put in. It was the efforts of the regular Yes campaigners that made me sit up and listen. Seeing so many real people campaign so vehemently showed me that this wasn't just an election for the suits, far from it! I want to thank you for putting in so much time and wakening the country up (on both sides of the argument). Scotland is such an exciting place right now.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Scottish westminster mp's all loose their jobs right ? (but with a pension for life). No wonder New Labour are wetting themselves.

£4 millions saved a year.

[DaveF]

Even stupider. That's not ME blaming anyone. That is just me using the word "blame" to describe how I think other people act.

Try and understand: I am not blaming anyone. I think that a lot of people do. And I don't think a Yes vote will change that at all.

Comprender?

Nah, I'm far too stupider to get any of that.

[Stranraer]

I have tried to stay out of the debate for a few days but cannot help myself. As a No supporter then I think the BT campaign over the last few days has been truly awful. I believe it will have the opposite effect to what they want and will turn No into Yes and many undecided into Yes.

If it's Yes and I think that's more likely as the days tick down then they only have themselves to blame.

If it is Yes then I will get behind it 100% and work with everyone to make Scotland a better place as that is what we ALL want and share a common goal on (and hating the Jambos)

:top marksreally good post mate, we certainly agree on the Yams!

[Moulin Yarns]

Www.kiltr.com

[Stranraer]

You guys are incredible in the effort you put in. It was the efforts of the regular Yes campaigners that made me sit up and listen. Seeing so many real people campaign so vehemently showed me that this wasn't just an election for the suits, far from it! I want to thank you for putting in so much time and wakening the country up (on both sides of the argument). Scotland is such an exciting place right now.

Thank you very much.

[Colonel_HFC]

Nah, I'm far too stupider to get any of that.

I think you're right.

[SteveHFC]

Usher hall tonight

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxhThHdCUAA-rhy.jpg

[DaveF]

I think you're right.

You have a PM :agree:

[Onceinawhile]

I'm now supremely confident of a yes win. A number of no voters have said it's to risky to vote yes, but I can't see them actually voting. I mean what if they cross the road to the polling station and get hit by a bus? Or an eagle flies off with them?

Best to stay inside really.

[The Harp Awakes]

Usher hall tonight

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxhThHdCUAA-rhy.jpg

Wow, that looks incredible. Would have loved to have been there.

[Stranraer]

I'm now supremely confident of a yes win. A number of no voters have said it's to risky to vote yes, but I can't see them actually voting. I mean what if they cross the road to the polling station and get hit by a bus? Or an eagle flies off with them?

Best to stay inside really.

I hope Irvine Welsh is right by saying that when potential no voters go to the ballot station they think "f it" and vote Yes.

I'm a nervous wreck!

[#FromTheCapital]

I'm now supremely confident of a yes win. A number of no voters have said it's to risky to vote yes, but I can't see them actually voting. I mean what if they cross the road to the polling station and get hit by a bus? Or an eagle flies off with them?

Best to stay inside really.

Conversely, yes voters may jump in front of a bus on their way to the polling station :greengrin

[jonty]

I wouldn't say I was confident, or really a definite 'yes'. I do want to see Scottish people have a Scottish government rather than a Westminster one. I've seen zero credible evidence from the no campaign. Yes campaign has largely been aspirational and then spent the rest of the time debunking the no campaigns doom, gloom and porky pies.

Saying that it's the most interest I've shown in politics. Ever.

[OsloHibs]

[QUOTE=SteveHFC;4169059]Usher hall tonight

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxhThHdCUAA-rhy.jpg

:not worth

[7 Hills]

Tweeted by Jim Sillars earlier. Full page advert to appear in Monday's Daily Record. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/14/2c1f700fa86913959f80e200446b974c.jpg

[Flynn]

Here is a wee video I made about the referendum. You'll probably only like this if you are a Yesser or undecided. Warning - It's not mobile friendly, PC/Tablet only and has "Thick Of It" levels of swearing.

Hitler finds out that the Scottish people are beginning to see through all the scaremongering. And he's not best pleased (I know these have been done to death but I've been told by many people that it's quite good).

Hope you enjoy. If you do please share far and wide on your social media (only 4 more days). The website I made this on doesn't allow me to upload to Youtube so social media is the only way I can get this out there. I don't care about being credited and if this gives an undecided voter food for thought while making them laugh, then it's been worth the effort. It's also really easy to edit my video to tone it down for a kid/granny-friendly version and re-post.

http://meemsy.com/v/21392

YES! Peace, comrades.

[Flynn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqDdHYy78M&feature=youtu.be

Mobile-friendly version...:cb

[Colonel_HFC]

You have a PM :agree:

To answer your PM, it's called a VPN. I also used to live in the states and I used a UK VPN there so that I could watch BBC iplayer etc.

[degenerated]

To answer your PM, it's called a VPN. I also used to live in the states and I used a UK VPN there so that I could watch BBC iplayer etc.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/15/03bad4b100e6a1c2230c35fa53e993d3.jpg

[Colonel_HFC]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/15/03bad4b100e6a1c2230c35fa53e993d3.jpg

Actually just my views. I guess that's pretty expected - anyone that you don't agree with should be discredited...

[snooky]

Might be a good idea to start a new poll. Many netters voted ages ago.
It may give some indication of any swing to yeas or naes.

[degenerated]

Actually just my views. I guess that's pretty expected - anyone that you don't agree with should be discredited...
There's plenty on here who have differing views such as beefster, simar, maybes aye to name a few who's views I respect and always read what they post. They put forward reasoned well thought out arguments to back up their views.
You, on the other hand have just popped up on here prior to a referendum and by your own admission are hiding behind a vpn. Can you see why I might think you're at it?

[Colonel_HFC]

There's plenty on here who have differing views such as beefster, simar, maybes aye to name a few that i respect and always read what they post. They put forward reasoned well thought out arguments to back up their views.
You, on the other hand have just popped up on here prior to a referendum and by your own admission are hiding behind a vpn. Can you see why I might think you're at it?

It's not hiding. At home there is a VPN. Anywhere else there is not. I'm just expressing my views. To describe a lot of the arguments on here as "reasoned and well thought" out is a stretch to say the least.

What I have written on this subject are my views. And even some people on this forum agree or at least share similar views. And this forum is hardly a good representation of society as a whole, even if you just consider Scotland. So, if even one or two people from this somewhat biased forum agree, then I'd say that a lot more in the general population probably would too.

[Phil D. Rolls]

We are now starting to see the petulant outbursts from a group of people who assumed that their power was absolute and forever. They are like the playground bully who cannot understand why people don't do his bidding anymore.

Rather than reflect on how they got to this position, they wallow in self pity, and blame the victims for the wrongs they were responsible for themselves. Short of calling us traitors, I don't see how much lower they can go.

[Colonel_HFC]

It's not hiding. At home there is a VPN. Anywhere else there is not. I'm just expressing my views. To describe a lot of the arguments on here as "reasoned and well thought" out is a stretch to say the least.

What I have written on this subject are my views. And even some people on this forum agree or at least share similar views. And this forum is hardly a good representation of society as a whole, even if you just consider Scotland. So, if even one or two people from this somewhat biased forum agree, then I'd say that a lot more in the general population probably would too.

And even if nobody does, it's still what I think. And no amount or put downs from anyone else are going to change that. I have heard what I consider to be stupid arguments from both sides. Personally I think the No side only had to make a few quiet points here or there to win easily. But they didn't so maybe it will be costly.

But my views are mine and they have not changed much, if at all, after hearing / reading many of the various arguments made. I think nationalism is stupid and, in this particular case, I think it could be very costly. If you don't agree then you don't agree. I don't agree with a lot of what I read on here but I don't try and discredit anyone's status because they said it.

[Colonel_HFC]

We are now starting to see the petulant outbursts from a group of people who assumed that their power was absolute and forever. They are like the playground bully who cannot understand why people don't do his bidding anymore.

Rather than reflect on how they got to this position, they wallow in self pity, and blame the victims for the wrongs they were responsible for themselves. Short of calling us traitors, I don't see how much lower they can go.

I've been called a traitor many times for not supporting the Yes vote. It's ridiculous for anyone to go throwing that argument around.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've been called a traitor many times for not supporting the Yes vote. It's ridiculous for anyone to go throwing that argument around.

I take it you are in favour of what the Telegraph printed then?

[CropleyWasGod]

I've been called a traitor many times for not supporting the Yes vote. It's ridiculous for anyone to go throwing that argument around.

On here, or elsewhere?

[Colonel_HFC]

I take it you are in favour of what the Telegraph printed then?

No, I'm not, despite what you take / assume.

[Colonel_HFC]

On here, or elsewhere?

Elsewhere. I think it's a stupid thing to say from either side actually.

[snooky]

"I've said before this is going to go down to the wire but I think we will win because I don't think Scotland is going to get bullied into accepting something that it doesn't want." - Alistair Darling

I'll sit on the fence with this one and let you take out of it whatever you want. :coffee:

[ACLeith]

I've been called a traitor many times for not supporting the Yes vote. It's ridiculous for anyone to go throwing that argument around.
Regardless of the outcome on Friday, it is guaranteed that the electorate in the country is deeply divided. We then are faced with a further two choices -

Those on the winning side can either show respect for the losers or can gloat.

Conversely, the losers have the choice of graciously accepting the result or moaning about all the perceived slights during the campaign.

One thing we can all be united on and that is that Scotland will never be the same again, the status quo is no longer a realistic option.

I have some close friends who are in the opposite camp to me; they will be my close friends on Wednesday and NOTHING will change that come Friday.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No, I'm not, despite what you take / assume.

So, do you agree it was a despicable thing to print?

[snooky]

Regardless of the outcome on Friday, it is guaranteed that the electorate in the country is deeply divided. We then are faced with a further two choices -

Those on the winning side can either show respect for the losers or can gloat.

Conversely, the losers have the choice of graciously accepting the result or moaning about all the perceived slights during the campaign.

One thing we can all be united on and that is that Scotland will never be the same again, the status quo is no longer a realistic option.

I have some close friends who are in the opposite camp to me; they will be my close friends on Wednesday and NOTHING will change that come Friday.

Great post, ACL :top marks
The aftermath is a big worry.
Celebrate (either way) - fair enough but gloating should be a no no.
It will be a time for healing not making more wounds.
This applies to both the peoples and governments of the UK.

[Colonel_HFC]

So, do you agree it was a despicable thing to print?

I think it was pretty petty and ultimately counterproductive - it may even get a few "don't know" voters to vote Yes. However, given that the Telegraph is generally a paper that supports the Conservatives, maybe that's what they were going for. Getting rid of the Scottish electorate, which rarely returns any Tory seats, will help them considerably in the next few general elections at least.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it was pretty petty and ultimately counterproductive - it may even get a few "don't know" voters to vote Yes. However, given that the Telegraph is generally a paper that supports the Conservatives, maybe that's what they were going for. Getting rid of the Scottish electorate, which rarely returns any Tory seats, will help them considerably in the next few general elections at least.

Conversely, I think Labour has been desperate to hold onto Scottish seats. The way they have treated the Scottish electorate, though, will backfire on them spectacularly. Maybe if the Torygraph understood the contempt that has grown for Labour here, they might have held fire on this disgusting story - Better Together are doing their work for them.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think it was pretty petty and ultimately counterproductive - it may even get a few "don't know" voters to vote Yes. However, given that the Telegraph is generally a paper that supports the Conservatives, maybe that's what they were going for. Getting rid of the Scottish electorate, which rarely returns any Tory seats, will help them considerably in the next few general elections at least.

This goes back to the conspiracy theory that was doing the rounds a few months back. With the interventions of Osbourne, Cameron and Johnson at that time, it seemed to some that the Tories were indeed trying to encourage a Yes vote.

Don't know if I believe that, but I can understand the thought process.

You're sounding as if you might agree with it, though?

[Just Alf]

Re the "nationalist" bit

I'm now a confirmed YES'er but don't think I'm nationalist. I'm YES because I want the government that makes the big decisions to be as close to me as possible, the Englishman at my work who's out campaigning of an evening for YES has similar thoughts.

I'll also add, I've family in Newcastle, Durham and Liverpool and when we have discussed the referendum they are (mostly, not all!) wanting a yes as they really hope this will trigger major change in rUK politics with their own form of regional devolution.

[Colonel_HFC]

This goes back to the conspiracy theory that was doing the rounds a few months back. With the interventions of Osbourne, Cameron and Johnson at that time, it seemed to some that the Tories were indeed trying to encourage a Yes vote.

Don't know if I believe that, but I can understand the thought process.

You're sounding as if you might agree with it, though?

Agree with it? Agree with what? I want a No vote. I don't agree with them trying to get a Yes vote by upsetting potential swing voters. And, if they actually do want a No vote, I don't agree with their headline anyway - hence the words "petty" and "counterproductive". So, either way, I don't like the way they went about things.

[WeeRussell]

Re the "nationalist" bit

I'm now a confirmed YES'er but don't think I'm nationalist. I'm YES because I want the government that makes the big decisions to be as close to me as possible, the Englishman at my work who's out campaigning of an evening for YES has similar thoughts.

I'll also add, I've family in Newcastle, Durham and Liverpool and when we have discussed the referendum they are (mostly, not all!) wanting a yes as they really hope this will trigger major change in rUK politics with their own form of regional devolution.

Tommy Sheridan made a very similar point on Saturday morning, on the (cough) BBC.. Andrew Neil scoffed and asked him if he seriously believed that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Agree with it? Agree with what? I want a No vote. I don't agree with them trying to get a Yes vote by upsetting potential swing voters. And, if they actually do want a No vote, I don't agree with their headline anyway - hence the words "petty" and "counterproductive". So, either way, I don't like the way they went about things.

Sorry, I meant , do you agree that they (ie the Tories, or those papers who support them) "may" actually be wishing for a Yes vote?

[Colonel_HFC]

Re the "nationalist" bit

I'm now a confirmed YES'er but don't think I'm nationalist. I'm YES because I want the government that makes the big decisions to be as close to me as possible, the Englishman at my work who's out campaigning of an evening for YES has similar thoughts.

I'll also add, I've family in Newcastle, Durham and Liverpool and when we have discussed the referendum they are (mostly, not all!) wanting a yes as they really hope this will trigger major change in rUK politics with their own form of regional devolution.

Interesting. I've spoken to a few people from the north of England that want a No vote because of the reasons mentioned above - they are worried that it will guarantee a Conservative government for the next few general elections at least. I don't know if that's true - when Blair was first elected I think Labour would have got in anyway, even without Scottish seats. But before that it was a long run for the Conservatives. And a lot of people that support Labour seem worried that the lack of Labour (or non-Conservative) seats without Scotland could lead to something even worse.

[Hibrandenburg]

Interesting. I've spoken to a few people from the north of England that want a No vote because of the reasons mentioned above - they are worried that it will guarantee a Conservative government for the next few general elections at least. I don't know if that's true - when Blair was first elected I think Labour would have got in anyway, even without Scottish seats. But before that it was a long run for the Conservatives. And a lot of people that support Labour seem worried that the lack of Labour (or non-Conservative) seats without Scotland could lead to something even worse.

All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination.

[Bristolhibby]

Re the "nationalist" bit

I'm now a confirmed YES'er but don't think I'm nationalist. I'm YES because I want the government that makes the big decisions to be as close to me as possible, the Englishman at my work who's out campaigning of an evening for YES has similar thoughts.

I'll also add, I've family in Newcastle, Durham and Liverpool and when we have discussed the referendum they are (mostly, not all!) wanting a yes as they really hope this will trigger major change in rUK politics with their own form of regional devolution.

You have hot the nail on the head for me (English based Scot).

I believe in democracy, something I believe Scotland isn't getting at the moment. The people of Scotland should decide Scotland's future, in all aspects of life.

I also relish the shake up to politics and the establishment as a whole across the British Islands. North and South of the boarder.

Politics had become stale, and the continued self serving nature of the elite few has got to be challenged. Scotland gaining her Independence is the first step to challenging this status quo.

Do the right thing guys and girls. Vote Yes.

J

[EH54]

All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination.

Correct

http://i62.tinypic.com/2j2choi.png

[Bristolhibby]

Interesting. I've spoken to a few people from the north of England that want a No vote because of the reasons mentioned above - they are worried that it will guarantee a Conservative government for the next few general elections at least. I don't know if that's true - when Blair was first elected I think Labour would have got in anyway, even without Scottish seats. But before that it was a long run for the Conservatives. And a lot of people that support Labour seem worried that the lack of Labour (or non-Conservative) seats without Scotland could lead to something even worse.

TBH mate, Labour and the Tories are the same now. They sold their principles getting elected in 1997. They needed to move into the middle ground to pick up Middle England votes.

They are both different sides to the same coin. They are like each half of the Old Firm.

We need a schism, and Scotland choosing to control her own destiny will be that schism IMHO.

J

[Colonel_HFC]

All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination.

You could use the same argument for separating Greater Manchester from the UK, or any other area that only represents 8% of the total population.

Even in the states there are people in Texas with separatist views. They never want a democratic government and indeed, if only the votes from Texans were considered, the government would always be republican and never democrat.

But that is not a good enough reason to separate from the rest of the USA. And I don't think it is here either. If you only considered the votes of Scotland then the government would never be Tory. If you only considered Greater Manchester it would always be Labour. If you only considered various Home County areas it would always be Tory.

But the answer should not be to separate because your area isn't always getting what it votes for. That's how I see it anyway.

[JeMeSouviens]

You could use the same argument for separating Greater Manchester from the UK, or any other area that only represents 8% of the total population.

Even in the states there are people in Texas with separatist views. They never want a democratic government and indeed, if only the votes from Texans were considered, the government would always be republican and never democrat.

But that is not a good enough reason to separate from the rest of the USA. And I don't think it is here either. If you only considered the votes of Scotland then the government would never be Tory. If you only considered Greater Manchester it would always be Labour. If you only considered various Home County areas it would always be Tory.

But the answer should not be to separate because your area isn't always getting what it votes for. That's how I see it anyway.

If Scotland is a country, you're wrong. If Scotland is a region of a country you're right. We decide on Thursday.

[Beefster]

If Scotland is a country, you're wrong. If Scotland is a region of a country you're right. We decide on Thursday.

Scotland is a country that has a political treaty with three other countries. There's no debating that Scotland is a country so I'm not sure where you're getting that Thursday is a question of whether Scotland is a country or not.

[snooky]

This goes back to the conspiracy theory that was doing the rounds a few months back. With the interventions of Osbourne, Cameron and Johnson at that time, it seemed to some that the Tories were indeed trying to encourage a Yes vote.

Don't know if I believe that, but I can understand the thought process.

You're sounding as if you might agree with it, though?


Maybe the NO campaign should have adopted a campaign of "Whatever you do, please vote Yes".
As Scotland's residents are genetically lacking in political thinking, many would vote No methinks - just to be awkward.

I recall this story as a child ...
"Brer Rabbit's eyes got very large. "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

[Colonel_HFC]

If Scotland is a country, you're wrong. If Scotland is a region of a country you're right. We decide on Thursday.

My passport doesn't say that Scotland is a country. In the same way that Americans don't have Texas, New York, California passports etc.

So it seems that this vote is to decide if a part of the country (the UK) can break away and form a separate country. What next? The Shetland population doesn't like that their votes don't seem to influence much in Edinburgh... So they have a vote in Shetland to form their own country? I don't see the difference.

[Beefster]

My passport doesn't say that Scotland is a country. In the same way that Americans don't have Texas, New York, California passports etc.

You're not really helping...

[Colonel_HFC]

You're not really helping...

I'm not trying to help. I'm just making comments based on how I see things. If you don't find it helpful then I'm sorry. If it's any consolation, I don't feel very helped by your comments either.

[Moulin Yarns]

I have just had a No Thinker try to tell someone to be positive on Thursday and vote No. :confused:

Positive and No are not things that go together.

I was in Perth High street today and a No Thinker asked if I wanted a sticker, so I asked what they said on them. The No Thinker said they had No Thanks on them, I said that was my reply and continued on my merry way to engage in conversation with the Yess people.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scotland is a country that has a political treaty with three other countries. There's no debating that Scotland is a country so I'm not sure where you're getting that Thursday is a question of whether Scotland is a country or not.

It gets referred to as a country and most of us probably think of it as a country. My point above is that the democratic deficit of UK general elections, whereby it's an issue that Scotland doesn't get governed by the party that wins the election in Scotland but it's not a similar issue for Greater Manchester, is only a real problem if Scotland is a country. There is plenty of opinion (more especially outside Scotland) that it's not:

From the OED:

country
noun (plural countries)
1 A nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory


Our government is the executive arm of a devolved legislature. Devolved means it isn't ours, it's a part of the UK government. btw, Scotland negotiated a treaty with one other country that led to an incorporating political union. Article 1 of the treaty says:

"That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN."

The form of words most favoured by the UK establishment is that the UK is one country consisting of a "family of nations".

Edit: I see the Colonel has just illustrated my point for me. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

My passport doesn't say that Scotland is a country. In the same way that Americans don't have Texas, New York, California passports etc.

So it seems that this vote is to decide if a part of the country (the UK) can break away and form a separate country. What next? The Shetland population doesn't like that their votes don't seem to influence much in Edinburgh... So they have a vote in Shetland to form their own country? I don't see the difference.

tbh, if a democratic movement arises that favours independence for Shetland and they win enough majority support in Shetland to hold a referendum then that's fine by me. Until then (and there's not even remotely anything like that on the horizon) maybe you could stop throwing your red herring at the muddy waters? :rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

tbh, if a democratic movement arises that favours independence for the Shetlands and they win enough majority support in the Shetlands to hold a referendum then that's fine by me. Until then (and there's not even remotely anything like that on the horizon) maybe you could stop throwing your red herring at the muddy waters? :rolleyes:

It's "Shetland" saying "the Shetlands" is like saying "the Scotlands". It's the sort of thing that makes people up there feel like we don't know enough about them.

[Beefster]

It's "Shetland" saying "the Shetlands" is like saying "the Scotlands". It's the sort of thing that makes people up there feel like we don't know enough about them.

Do they still all wear those horned hats up there?

[Colonel_HFC]

tbh, if a democratic movement arises that favours independence for the Shetlands and they win enough majority support in the Shetlands to hold a referendum then that's fine by me. Until then (and there's not even remotely anything like that on the horizon) maybe you could stop throwing your red herring at the muddy waters? :rolleyes:

It's maybe not on the cards, but it is a fair comparison I think.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Do they still all wear those horned hats up there?

Only when there's a drive off at petrol stations.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's "Shetland" saying "the Shetlands" is like saying "the Scotlands". It's the sort of thing that makes people up there feel like we don't know enough about them.

Point taken and apologies to any offended Hibbies from Shetland. :embarrass

[CropleyWasGod]

John Oliver finally comes out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRKND8QbbbE

[degenerated]

You're not really helping...
That would depend on your aspirations, I think he's doing a grand job :greengrin

[Colonel_HFC]

It's "Shetland" saying "the Shetlands" is like saying "the Scotlands". It's the sort of thing that makes people up there feel like we don't know enough about them.

But it is also the Shetland Isles (plural) since it is not just one single island. So I can see how Shetlands would come to mind.

[speedy_gonzales]

All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination.


Correct

http://i62.tinypic.com/2j2choi.png
But it's not correct is it,,,or am I being completely thick, from that graphic I can clearly see three separate instances where a different government would have occurred without the Scottish vote.

[Colonel_HFC]

That would depend on your aspirations, I think he's doing a grand job :greengrin

Indecipherable...

[Colonel_HFC]

But it's not correct is it,,,or am I being completely thick, from that graphic I can clearly see three separate instances where a different government would have occurred without the Scottish vote.

Also, if there were no Scottish seats in the last general election is it not the case that the Conservatives wouldn't have needed to form a coalition with the Lib Dems? I have not checked but maybe that would be the case.

[NAE NOOKIE]

John Oliver finally comes out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRKND8QbbbE

That was very funny :faf:

[NAE NOOKIE]

My passport doesn't say that Scotland is a country. In the same way that Americans don't have Texas, New York, California passports etc.

So it seems that this vote is to decide if a part of the country (the UK) can break away and form a separate country. What next? The Shetland population doesn't like that their votes don't seem to influence much in Edinburgh... So they have a vote in Shetland to form their own country? I don't see the difference.

That's for sure.

[JeMeSouviens]

But it's not correct is it,,,or am I being completely thick, from that graphic I can clearly see three separate instances where a different government would have occurred without the Scottish vote.

Yes, you're correct. The 64-66 and Feb 74 to Oct 74 Labour governments needed Scottish seats for their majorities. The current coalition would be a Tory majority as well (hence the small amount of yellow on the top bar from 2010 on).

[speedy_gonzales]

Also, if there were no Scottish seats in the last general election is it not the case that the Conservatives wouldn't have needed to form a coalition with the Lib Dems? I have not checked but maybe that would be the case.
That was one of the governments I noticed would have been different, '64, '74 & 2010.
Perhaps I'm bordering on being pedantic,,,,,,but apparently we have made a difference with post war governments.

[Colonel_HFC]

That's for sure.

Or maybe it's just a fact that your fundamental views are different from mine. Other than scale it is not different.

Maybe you see something that isn't there.

[CropleyWasGod]

That was very funny :faf:

I love JO. Cracks me up, but always has an edge to him.

I did wonder whether he would do something on the iRef, and how. He didn't disappoint.

[Colonel_HFC]

Yes, you're correct. The 64-66 and Feb 74 to Oct 74 Labour governments needed Scottish seats for their majorities. The current coalition would be a Tory majority as well (hence the small amount of yellow on the top bar from 2010 on).

So what's this all about then?

"Originally Posted by Hiberlin:
All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination."

[degenerated]

This was tweeted by Reuters chief markets correspondent.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/15/2da61d14aef19f9621559bd1c90cbe47.jpg

UK current account deficit "grotesque" now, "catastrophic" without Scotland's oil -SocGen's Albert Edwards #indyref http://t.co/Za3i5cuvhx

Also noticed this article on another site.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-15/why-scotland-has-all-leverage-one-chart

[speedy_gonzales]

So what's this all about then?

"Originally Posted by Hiberlin:
All UK governments since the end of WW2 would have got in with or without Scottish seats. You've just highlighted the single most important reason why Scotland needs self determination."
Without asking what Hiberlin meant or where the 'FACTS' came from, I'd suggest there's been a misunderstanding with the graphic. It doesn't say ALL UK governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote, it says Conservative governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote. Perhaps this is what they meant to write?
FaceBook has been full of this kind of misrepresentation in the run up to the referendum. Quite frustrating when someone posts a 'FACT' and the supporting evidence they provide does anything but prove their 'FACT',,,,,,:rolleyes:

[Colonel_HFC]

Without asking what Hiberlin meant or where the 'FACTS' came from, I'd suggest there's been a misunderstanding with the graphic. It doesn't say ALL UK governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote, it says Conservative governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote. Perhaps this is what they meant to write?
FaceBook has been full of this kind of misrepresentation in the run up to the referendum. Quite frustrating when someone posts a 'FACT' and the supporting evidence they provide does anything but prove their 'FACT',,,,,,:rolleyes:

But if the Scottish vote was able to get Labour elected on multiple occasions where without it the Conservatives would have won, surely that means that it is not insignificant. And I don't see how it's any more or less significant than any other area that contains roughly 8% of the population anyway.

[speedy_gonzales]

But if the Scottish vote was able to get Labour elected on multiple occasions where without it the Conservatives would have won, surely that means that it is not insignificant. And I don't see how it's any more or less significant than any other area that contains roughly 8% of the population anyway.Bingo :aok:
Nobody is claiming Scotland decides who governs these isles every 4 years, but to claim we haven't or can't make a difference is just plain wrong and incorrect!

[JeMeSouviens]

Scotland is a country that has a political treaty with three other countries. There's no debating that Scotland is a country so I'm not sure where you're getting that Thursday is a question of whether Scotland is a country or not.

Right on cue from the bold CallMeDave ...


"The future of our country is at stake. This is a decision that could break up our family of nations."

[JeMeSouviens]

Bingo :aok:
Nobody is claiming Scotland decides who governs these isles every 4 years, but to claim we haven't or can't make a difference is just plain wrong and incorrect!

Clearly anybody claiming 100% no difference is wrong. However, since the war Scotland has been governed by the party that won the general election in Scotland for just 44% of the time.

England has been governed by the party that won the election in England 96% of the time.

[Hibrandenburg]

Without asking what Hiberlin meant or where the 'FACTS' came from, I'd suggest there's been a misunderstanding with the graphic. It doesn't say ALL UK governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote, it says Conservative governments were elected regardless of the Scottish vote. Perhaps this is what they meant to write?
FaceBook has been full of this kind of misrepresentation in the run up to the referendum. Quite frustrating when someone posts a 'FACT' and the supporting evidence they provide does anything but prove their 'FACT',,,,,,:rolleyes:

I didn't post the graph instead I was speaking from memory. Seems I wasn't 100% correct but not far off. :wink:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

[JeMeSouviens]

The BTNT campaign has been full of ideas borrowed from Quebec, which very narrowly voted Non in 1995. Just before that vote, a hundred thousand odd non-Quebecois Canadians descended on Montréal for a unity rally which was at least partly credited with the No side winning.

So, today the right wing BritNat Spectator launches the Unity Rally 2014!!!

In Edinburgh? No. Glasgow? No ... it's in London, way to not be arsed, Unionists. :rolleyes:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/fraser-nelson/2014/09/its-on-come-for-tea-at-the-spectator-tomorrow-before-the-6pm-unity2014-rally-in-trafalgar-square/

[Colonel_HFC]

Clearly anybody claiming 100% no difference is wrong. However, since the war Scotland has been governed by the party that won the general election in Scotland for just 44% of the time.

England has been governed by the party that won the election in England 96% of the time.

8% of the population getting their choice 44% of the time is pretty good I'd say.

I think that if you were to split the UK up into segments (each with around 5 million people) then it's likely that each section would get their choice (i.e. what the majority in that particular segment voted for) somewhere between 40% and 60% of the time.

[Hibbyradge]

John Oliver finally comes out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRKND8QbbbE

It's been pulled.

[JeMeSouviens]

8% of the population getting their choice 44% of the time is pretty good I'd say.

I think that if you were to split the UK up into segments (each with around 5 million people) then it's likely that each section would get their choice (i.e. what the majority in that particular segment voted for) somewhere between 40% and 60% of the time.

I already said multiple times, if you're happy with Scotland as a region, yes, that's all fine.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Or maybe it's just a fact that your fundamental views are different from mine. Other than scale it is not different.

Maybe you see something that isn't there.

No don't think that's it. But you are bang on about our views being different.

[JeMeSouviens]

So another CallMeDave campaign rally, in private, invited audience, no unscripted questions (actually this time just no questions at all I think).

Does anybody really think it's sustainable for Scotland to be part of a country whose leader doesn't think he can appear here in public?

[Colonel_HFC]

I already said multiple times, if you're happy with Scotland as a region, yes, that's all fine.

I am happy with that. And I really don't think it will be any different. Maybe after independence there will be specific areas of Scotland (say 8% of the population in size) that will get frustrated because the rest I the country doesn't appear to vote the same way as they do on a regular basis (note the word "appear"). Then they might want to form their own country too. So where does it end? Ok it's only theoretical but I think most of the arguments for independence are based on the same theory. And in practice I think it's far more trouble than it's worth and will only generate a number of, at best, practical and logistical problems.

A lot of others (so I've heard) will be upset about having the nationality they were born with (i.e. British) potentially taken away from them without ever having rescinded their nationality voluntarily.

And for what? A smaller version of the same system.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I am happy with that. And I really don't think it will be any different. Maybe after independence there will be specific areas of Scotland (say 8% of the population in size) that will get frustrated because the rest I the country doesn't appear to vote the same way as they do on a regular basis (note the word "appear"). Then they might want to form their own country too. So where does it end? Ok it's only theoretical but I think most of the arguments for independence are based on the same theory. And in practice I think it's far more trouble than it's worth and will only generate a number of, at best, practical and logistical problems.

A lot of others (so I've heard) will be upset about having the nationality they were born with (i.e. British) potentially taken away from them without ever having rescinded their nationality voluntarily.

And for what? A smaller version of the same system.

Will it not be possible to claim dual nationality, giving the best of both worlds.

[Mon Dieu4]

I am happy with that. And I really don't think it will be any different. Maybe after independence there will be specific areas of Scotland (say 8% of the population in size) that will get frustrated because the rest I the country doesn't appear to vote the same way as they do on a regular basis (note the word "appear"). Then they might want to form their own country too. So where does it end? Ok it's only theoretical but I think most of the arguments for independence are based on the same theory. And in practice I think it's far more trouble than it's worth and will only generate a number of, at best, practical and logistical problems.

A lot of others (so I've heard) will be upset about having the nationality they were born with (i.e. British) potentially taken away from them without ever having rescinded their nationality voluntarily.

And for what? A smaller version of the same system.

Next up for me will be Leith gaining independence from Edinburgh

[Leith Green]

Just saw on the STV news, apparently if Scotland were to vote No then we would be entitled to another referendum for independence in the event of U.K voting to leave Europe in their proposed referendum in 2017.

[The Harp Awakes]

So another CallMeDave campaign rally, in private, invited audience, no unscripted questions (actually this time just no questions at all I think).

Does anybody really think it's sustainable for Scotland to be part of a country whose leader doesn't think he can appear here in public?

Cameron is the epitome of why Scotland needs to be independent. His politics and the politics of his Government are so out of tune with those of the vast majority of Scottish people.

And if you think the current Westminster Government is out of tune with Scotland, just wait for the joys of a Tory/UKIP coalition after the next general election, if we vote No on Thursday. We'd be out of the EU within a few years and the Tories/UKIP would treat Scotland with contempt because we had been so insolent to attempt to become independent.

[The Harp Awakes]

Just saw on the STV news, apparently if Scotland were to vote No then we would be entitled to another referendum for independence in the event of U.K voting to leave Europe in their proposed referendum in 2017.

Sounds like 50 more pieces of silver being offered up to try and stop us voting Yes on Thursday.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Next up for me will be Leith gaining independence from Edinburgh

I'm a no. Though I don't live in Leith any more I have done .... In my opinion Leith could never survive outside of Edinburgh. The people of Leith just couldn't make a go of it. I know the Royal Yacht pulls in a lot of money, but that wont last .... even the experts who support an independent Leith say it will rust and sink eventually. What then?

I also know that if Leith goes it alone big firms like the 4 in Hand and the Royal Nip will pull out.

[CapitalGreen]

I'm a no. Though I don't live in Leith any more I have done .... In my opinion Leith could never survive outside of Edinburgh. The people of Leith just couldn't make a go of it. I know the Royal Yacht pulls in a lot of money, but that wont last .... even the experts who support an independent Leith say it will rust and sink eventually. What then?

I also know that if Leith goes it alone big firms like the 4 in Hand and the Royal Nip will pull out.

Hibs will move to Straiton if Leith becomes independent. Think of all the hibs employees like Liam Craig and Rod Petrie who may lose their jobs. Vote No!

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm a no. Though I don't live in Leith any more I have done .... In my opinion Leith could never survive outside of Edinburgh. The people of Leith just couldn't make a go of it. I know the Royal Yacht pulls in a lot of money, but that wont last .... even the experts who support an independent Leith say it will rust and sink eventually. What then?

I also know that if Leith goes it alone big firms like the 4 in Hand and the Royal Nip will pull out.

:not worth my favourite post on this whole thread

[NAE NOOKIE]

Hibs will move to Straiton if Leith becomes independent. Think of all the hibs employees like Liam Craig and Rod Petrie who may lose their jobs. Vote No!

Look ... I am a No, but that's just scaremongering ........ Leith will keep these fantastic assets.

[CropleyWasGod]

Look ... I am a No, but that's just scaremongering ........ Leith will keep these fantastic assets.
Wtf are you going to use as currency? Used needles and ginger bottles?

FYI, Hubs belong to Lochend, no Leith.

[Leith Green]

Was just reading Baroness Boothroyd in the Independent.. She was calling for the polls to be scrapped in the later stages of a referendum, she fears they could influence the actual result.. One of the head honchos from one such pollster (icm) has basically agreed, and said that the outcome of these particular poll could be as bad as in 1992s general election, he reckons that such a small pot of scots being polled could lead to inaccuracies..

Interestingly this was the guy whos poll had yes 8 points ahead at the weekend, make of that what you will??

See below


Baroness Boothroyd, the former Commons Speaker, has called for a ban on the publication of opinion polls in the run-up to elections and referendums following the conflicting surveys before Scotland votes on Thursday.
Lady Boothroyd told The Independent: “The polls on the referendum are very confusing and contradictory. I am worried that they potentially could influence the outcome of the vote. I think the time has really come to do as the French do. We should ban them up to a week before polling day. Then people can make up their minds without all these confusing polls.”
The referendum campaign was transformed by a YouGov poll nine days ago showing the Yes camp ahead for the first time. The race is now too close to call, with the latest “poll of polls” by What Scotland Thinks putting No on 51 per cent and Yes on 49 per cent.
The referendum is the first major UK political event when most polls have been conducted on the internet rather than face-to-face or by telephone.
Pollsters admit they are nervous about the result. Martin Boon, director of ICM, acknowledged “a long-held concern” that the panels of voters used in online polls could be infiltrated by supporters of a political party or one side in a referendum. On BBC Radio 4’s More or Less programme, he disclosed that he told Yes and No campaign leaders last month that “if they weren’t trying to infiltrate online panels, then what on earth are they doing?” But he said there had not been more people joining ICM’s online panel in Scotland than in England.
Mr Boon was concerned that pollsters are dependent on a “relatively small pot of Scots” being interviewed by all the polling companies. “In that lies a real danger about the accuracy of the polls,” he said. “This referendum has the potential to be a polling Waterloo, the biggest since [the] 1992 [election] when the polls got it wrong.
"I can’t say I would be surprised. I think the best we can hope for as an industry is that we dodge a bullet. But it’s entirely possible that the bullets do start spraying our way.”




Thoughts??

[NAE NOOKIE]

Wtf are you going to use as currency? Used needles and ginger bottles?

FYI, Hubs belong to Lochend, no Leith.

Ahm no huvvin that! .... I'm thinking of going yes now.

Leith will have its own currency ..... The Raj

Also ..... In international law a club belongs where its owner comes from .... that's Leith. I have heard that respected international experts like Romanov and Charles Greene acknowledge this.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Was just reading Baroness Boothroyd in the Independent.. She was calling for the polls to be scrapped in the later stages of a referendum, she fears they could influence the actual result.. One of the head honchos from one such pollster (icm) has basically agreed, and said that the outcome of these particular poll could be as bad as in 1992s general election, he reckons that such a small pot of scots being polled could lead to inaccuracies..

Interestingly this was the guy whos poll had yes 8 points ahead at the weekend, make of that what you will??

See below


Baroness Boothroyd, the former Commons Speaker, has called for a ban on the publication of opinion polls in the run-up to elections and referendums following the conflicting surveys before Scotland votes on Thursday.
Lady Boothroyd told The Independent: “The polls on the referendum are very confusing and contradictory. I am worried that they potentially could influence the outcome of the vote. I think the time has really come to do as the French do. We should ban them up to a week before polling day. Then people can make up their minds without all these confusing polls.”
The referendum campaign was transformed by a YouGov poll nine days ago showing the Yes camp ahead for the first time. The race is now too close to call, with the latest “poll of polls” by What Scotland Thinks putting No on 51 per cent and Yes on 49 per cent.
The referendum is the first major UK political event when most polls have been conducted on the internet rather than face-to-face or by telephone.
Pollsters admit they are nervous about the result. Martin Boon, director of ICM, acknowledged “a long-held concern” that the panels of voters used in online polls could be infiltrated by supporters of a political party or one side in a referendum. On BBC Radio 4’s More or Less programme, he disclosed that he told Yes and No campaign leaders last month that “if they weren’t trying to infiltrate online panels, then what on earth are they doing?” But he said there had not been more people joining ICM’s online panel in Scotland than in England.
Mr Boon was concerned that pollsters are dependent on a “relatively small pot of Scots” being interviewed by all the polling companies. “In that lies a real danger about the accuracy of the polls,” he said. “This referendum has the potential to be a polling Waterloo, the biggest since [the] 1992 [election] when the polls got it wrong.
"I can’t say I would be surprised. I think the best we can hope for as an industry is that we dodge a bullet. But it’s entirely possible that the bullets do start spraying our way.”




Thoughts??

Could have a point ..... It wouldn't be outwith the bounds that a poll could influence the vote. Everybody has taken part in a show of hands vote where you can see folk looking round the room before putting their hand up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ahm no huvvin that! .... I'm thinking of going yes now.

Leith will have its own currency ..... The Raj

Also ..... In international law a club belongs where its owner comes from .... that's Leith. I have heard that respected international experts like Romanov and Charles Greene acknowledge this.
So you're saying STF is staying as head of state?

Quisling

[hibsbollah]

So you're saying STF is staying as head of state?

Quisling

Naw. Calderwood is Vidkun Quisling.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm a no. Though I don't live in Leith any more I have done .... In my opinion Leith could never survive outside of Edinburgh. The people of Leith just couldn't make a go of it. I know the Royal Yacht pulls in a lot of money, but that wont last .... even the experts who support an independent Leith say it will rust and sink eventually. What then?

I also know that if Leith goes it alone big firms like the 4 in Hand and the Royal Nip will pull out.

Are either of those establishments in Leith?

[Leith Green]

Could have a point ..... It wouldn't be outwith the bounds that a poll could influence the vote. Everybody has taken part in a show of hands vote where you can see folk looking round the room before putting their hand up.

Makes me wonder wether he knows/thinks that recent polls may not be correct. If so, it makes you wonder how and why??

[JeMeSouviens]

Another brilliant strategy from Labour. "If you don't know, vote no."

Don't bother with all that tricky finding out things, just act like brain dead voting fodder. Pretty much sums up the Labour attitude to the Scottish electorate.

[JimBHibees]

Another brilliant strategy from Labour. "If you don't know, vote no."

Don't bother with all that tricky finding out things, just act like brain dead voting fodder. Pretty much sums up the Labour attitude to the Scottish electorate.

As you say sums up their attitude perfectly. Reminds me of the old saying you could put a red rosette on a monkey and it would still get voted in.

[The Harp Awakes]

An interesting take on the North Sea oil debate from former Westminster Chancellor Denis Healy:

http://m.stv.tv/news/politics/225958-denis-healey-westminster-worried-stiff-about-losing-north-sea-oil/

Originally written last year but re-published by STV today.

[Colonel_HFC]

Will it not be possible to claim dual nationality, giving the best of both worlds.

I don't know. Many people don't seem to know what would happen there. But I've heard a lot of people say that they would be upset if they had to give up their British nationality without surrendering it voluntarily.

But I have no idea really. And I don't know how it would affect me since I live overseas. I actually can qualify for residency in another EU country anyway so I always have that option if I'm not happy with the UK / Scottish options available.

[JeMeSouviens]

Everybody who was a UK citizen at the time of Ireland's independence retained the right to a UK passport. Can't see why they'd do it differently?

[Colonel_HFC]

Everybody who was a UK citizen at the time of Ireland's independence retained the right to a UK passport. Can't see why they'd do it differently?

Could be the same. Might not be. It's up to the UK government I guess. Or maybe EU law will have something that covers such situations.

[Canongatehibs]

Vote YES.

[Stranraer]

Another brilliant strategy from Labour. "If you don't know, vote no."

Don't bother with all that tricky finding out things, just act like brain dead voting fodder. Pretty much sums up the Labour attitude to the Scottish electorate.

It sums up Labour in general really. A despicable party in all forms.

[Stranraer]

Alex Salmond in Perth on Wednesday Night

I know it's a long shot but is anyone going to Salmond's final speech on Wednesday night in Perth who may have a spare seat?

[snooky]

The BTNT campaign has been full of ideas borrowed from Quebec, which very narrowly voted Non in 1995. Just before that vote, a hundred thousand odd non-Quebecois Canadians descended on Montréal for a unity rally which was at least partly credited with the No side winning.

So, today the right wing BritNat Spectator launches the Unity Rally 2014!!!

In Edinburgh? No. Glasgow? No ... it's in London, way to not be arsed, Unionists. :rolleyes:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/fraser-nelson/2014/09/its-on-come-for-tea-at-the-spectator-tomorrow-before-the-6pm-unity2014-rally-in-trafalgar-square/

There were also concerts in all the major cities, from Halifax to Vancouver, with a "Please Stay" theme and national TV coverage on CBC.
I believe the vote hinged on the Quebecers who cross the provincial border daily to work in Ottawa.
Rural Quebec voted for independence.
For the record, the result was 51/49

[Hibrandenburg]

Wtf are you going to use as currency? Used needles and ginger bottles?

FYI, Hubs belong to Lochend, no Leith.

Pegs, we'll peg it to the pound doubling our money.

[Moulin Yarns]

Alex Salmond in Perth on Wednesday Night

I know it's a long shot but is anyone going to Salmond's final speech on Wednesday night in Perth who may have a spare seat?

Do you know the venue? or who is hosting? I'll see what I can do.

[spike220]

Aye

[JeMeSouviens]

Parallels with Ireland from Robert Fisk:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-ireland-since-1919-is-a-lesson-for-scotland-in-what-a-yes-vote-means-9727596.html

[JeMeSouviens]

The Daily Record has yet another rehash of more powers, this time with a signed pledge (still not actually pledging anything remotely concrete as far as I can see) from Cameron, Milliband and Clegg!

A signed pledge from Clegg? Seriously?

[Beefster]

Leaked Scottish Government papers suggest a £400m NHS funding gap and some cost-cutting post-independence. If this is genuine, it's just another thing that we're not being told (and I'm talking about the entire debate) and makes a bit of a mockery of the "Vote Yes to protect the NHS" argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

[JeMeSouviens]

Billy Bragg gets it:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

[Peevemor]

Leaked Scottish Government papers suggest a £400m NHS funding gap and some cost-cutting post-independence. If this is genuine, it's just another thing that we're not being told (and I'm talking about the entire debate) and makes a bit of a mockery of the "Vote Yes to protect the NHS" argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416



The documents state: "The status quo and preservation of existing models of care are no longer an option given the pressing challenges we face."

Is this not another reason to vote Yes?

The Scottish Government as it stands have to juggle budgets handed out by Westminster - what we currently have is Scotland Regional Council.

[JeMeSouviens]

Leaked Scottish Government papers suggest a £400m NHS funding gap and some cost-cutting post-independence. If this is genuine, it's just another thing that we're not being told (and I'm talking about the entire debate) and makes a bit of a mockery of the "Vote Yes to protect the NHS" argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

It would really help if you read it first:


The papers outline a funding gap of £400-£450m in the next financial year, 2015/16, which is described as "a level significantly in excess of that previously required"

2015/16 is not post-independence. If true, this is a funding gap under the present devolved arrangement.