Scottish Independence

[PeeJay]

Aren't you both talking about different things?

You seem to be talking about the Euro issues, whilst he's talking about the 2008 crash.

No I don't think so - the banking and financial institution "crash" is what impacted ultimately on the Eurozone causing a "euro crisis", it's not the other way round and they are obviously related. Quantitative easing in the UK is the UK's way of dealing with its own "euro" crisis, the US also pumped in a few dollars to save its system - it's not down to the euro, it's not the common factor: it all stems from the financial crisis ...

[CropleyWasGod]

No I don't think so - the banking and financial institution "crash" is what impacted ultimately on the Eurozone causing a "euro crisis", it's not the other way round and they are obviously related. Quantitative easing in the UK is the UK's way of dealing with its own "euro" crisis, the US also pumped in a few dollars to save its system - it's not down to the euro, it's not the common factor: it all stems from the financial crisis ...



No worries. I was just trying to do my Kissinger bit. :greengrin

[Leith Green]

Check out the mail, telegraph, and Belfast chronicle (lol) articles declaring North Korea coming out in support of Scottish Independence..

Then read the article properly and see who makes the quotes, a journalist from north Korea who lives in Japan

This is quite obviously trying to compare north Korea to an independent Scotland, and put the idea into peoples minds
This kind of reporting is getting so biased, its tedious, and sneaky.. And surprise surprise it makes more headlines than Salmond quite rightly attacking the BBC earlier.

This has got to be the most biased media reporting of anything i have ever seen before...

[DaveF]

Salmond vs Robinson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHmLb-RIbrM&sns=tw

I see Nick took that really well in his main BBC report tonight at 6pm.

Started off with a clip showing Robinson asking the tail end of his question and then voiced in right away with 'He didn't answer'.

Well, he did Nick, but since it wasn't to your liking you just forgot about it. And no footage of your heckling either :greengrin

To be honest, the reporting today has been nothing short of bonkers against a YES vote, and it will only continue. If the YES campaign somehow win this, it'll be the biggest political miracle ever considering what they are up against, media wise.

[snooky]

I see Nick took that really well in his main BBC report tonight at 6pm.

Started off with a clip showing Robinson asking the tail end of his question and then voiced in right away with 'He didn't answer'.

Well, he did Nick, but since it wasn't to your liking you just forgot about it. And no footage of your heckling either :greengrin

To be honest, the reporting today has been nothing short of bonkers against a YES vote, and it will only continue. If the YES campaign somehow win this, it'll be the biggest ...... miracle ever considering what they are up against, ....


Almost like playing a cup final against Rangers :wink:

[Peevemor]

No I don't think so - the banking and financial institution "crash" is what impacted ultimately on the Eurozone causing a "euro crisis", it's not the other way round and they are obviously related. Quantitative easing in the UK is the UK's way of dealing with its own "euro" crisis, the US also pumped in a few dollars to save its system - it's not down to the euro, it's not the common factor: it all stems from the financial crisis ...



I was speaking about the 2008 crash. France suffered along with everyone else but not as much as the UK. Their banking system remained solid.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I see Nick took that really well in his main BBC report tonight at 6pm.

Started off with a clip showing Robinson asking the tail end of his question and then voiced in right away with 'He didn't answer'.

Well, he did Nick, but since it wasn't to your liking you just forgot about it. And no footage of your heckling either :greengrin

To be honest, the reporting today has been nothing short of bonkers against a YES vote, and it will only continue. If the YES campaign somehow win this, it'll be the biggest political miracle ever considering what they are up against, media wise.

Appalling from Nick Robinson. Used to respect the guy, but lying on the national news because the answer wasn't to his liking is disgusting.

[Hibrandenburg]

Would all you yes voters care to tell me where Scotland ( Salmond) will get the money to provide for all the free child care. ( promised) the reduced retrial age and increased pensions .. You are all in la la land if you believe we as an independent country can afford Salmonds dreams, plus the increased Immigration ( we have more than enough on our streets already ) he has promised and membership of the EU ( I want out of that gravy train )

Welcome to Scotland Mr Farage.

[One Day Soon]

Appalling from Nick Robinson. Used to respect the guy, but lying on the national news because the answer wasn't to his liking is disgusting.

Astonishing to see a press conference fitted out with cheerleaders for Salmond. Like he needed protection from any difficult questions. I don't think I have ever seen something like that before. Between that and the attempt to force the BBC to keep Galloway off the debate tonight it all smells pretty authoritarian.

He's toast on the economic stuff by the way, the volume of businesses together with the stock market and pound drops write the story in giant letters. Unless you think every report, announcement and stock movement is all part of one big conspiracy.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Check out the mail, telegraph, and Belfast chronicle (lol) articles declaring North Korea coming out in support of Scottish Independence..

Then read the article properly and see who makes the quotes, a journalist from north Korea who lives in Japan

This is quite obviously trying to compare north Korea to an independent Scotland, and put the idea into peoples minds
This kind of reporting is getting so biased, its tedious, and sneaky.. And surprise surprise it makes more headlines than Salmond quite rightly attacking the BBC earlier.

This has got to be the most biased media reporting of anything i have ever seen before...

Walked round my local ASDA a couple of hours ago and stopped by the newspaper stand. Apart from the Daily Star having a front page story about Spiders, every paper but one ( cant remember which ) had headlines like "black day for Salmond" etc.

I am biased ... but watching the BBC of late it does look increasingly like 'get the Yes stuff out the way quick' and lets get to the Better together stuff. I can honestly say that a few weeks ago I would not have had that opinion. I have always thought that the BBC and especially their news reporting was beyond reproach ... I am struggling with that opinion now.

One thing I am positive about ................. Outside of countries with state controlled newspapers and television, has there ever been a democratic process where the press coverage was so heavily weighted on one side. I fail to see how that can be good for democracy In any country.

It seems to me that its just as bad to have a press overwhelmingly owned by right wingers with ties to big business and the old boy network, than it is to have press controlled by the state.

Given that its a miracle that the Yes campaign has managed the progress it has ...... I take my hat off to all the folk actually putting the work in http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/not%20worthy.gif

[DaveF]

Astonishing to see a press conference fitted out with cheerleaders for Salmond. Like he needed protection from any difficult questions. I don't think I have ever seen something like that before. Between that and the attempt to force the BBC to keep Galloway off the debate tonight it all smells pretty authoritarian.

He's toast on the economic stuff by the way, the volume of businesses together with the stock market and pound drops write the story in giant letters. Unless you think every report, announcement and stock movement is all part of one big conspiracy.

I didn't see the whole press conference, so can't comment but is it any different from the stage managed street speeches given by every Tom, Dick or Harry surrounded by their hand picked supporters?

As for the the stock market - Does it only go up the way except when you talk about Scotland? Conspiracy, perhaps not but it's very convenient for the No camp that all this comes out a week before the vote.

[xyz23jc]

Astonishing to see a press conference fitted out with cheerleaders for Salmond. Like he needed protection from any difficult questions. I don't think I have ever seen something like that before. Between that and the attempt to force the BBC to keep Galloway off the debate tonight it all smells pretty authoritarian.

He's toast on the economic stuff by the way, the volume of businesses together with the stock market and pound drops write the story in giant letters. Unless you think every report, announcement and stock movement is all part of one big conspiracy.

You obviously never saw Miliband in Glasgow then! Absolutely feckless and pathetic! Even the English can see Labour will never win an election under his piss poor leadership! Total embarrassment!

[Hibrandenburg]

Top post Mr Farage.

Beat me to it :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Astonishing to see a press conference fitted out with cheerleaders for Salmond. Like he needed protection from any difficult questions. I don't think I have ever seen something like that before. Between that and the attempt to force the BBC to keep Galloway off the debate tonight it all smells pretty authoritarian.

He's toast on the economic stuff by the way, the volume of businesses together with the stock market and pound drops write the story in giant letters. Unless you think every report, announcement and stock movement is all part of one big conspiracy.

David Cameron dragging the bosses of a load of big supermarkets into Downing Street to kick them into shape just to make sure they remember which side their bread is buttered on ..... I wonder how many knighthoods and peerages were promised?

Lets face it ...... that's a tried and tested method of getting folk on side used by both the Tories and Labour in the past.

If it is a no vote lets hope someone sets up Peerage watch!

It will be interesting to see how many of the no big hitters from the press and business go from Mr to Sir and Sir to Lord ..... wont it!

[sauzee_4]

I see Nick took that really well in his main BBC report tonight at 6pm.

Started off with a clip showing Robinson asking the tail end of his question and then voiced in right away with 'He didn't answer'.

Well, he did Nick, but since it wasn't to your liking you just forgot about it. And no footage of your heckling either :greengrin

To be honest, the reporting today has been nothing short of bonkers against a YES vote, and it will only continue. If the YES campaign somehow win this, it'll be the biggest political miracle ever considering what they are up against, media wise.

Just watched this exchange and I've been chewing it over all day (the banks moving their brass plaques- possibly).

Salmond's answer has eased my concerns, as has RBS's statement that no jobs would be moving. I would assume most of the banks mentioned would follow the same approach.

My question is, are there NO revenues that we would lose from this Brass Plaque exercise should it happen? VAT for instance? He did mention Corporation Tax was based on economic activity.

[DaveF]

Astonishing to see a press conference fitted out with cheerleaders for Salmond. Like he needed protection from any difficult questions. I don't think I have ever seen something like that before. Between that and the attempt to force the BBC to keep Galloway off the debate tonight it all smells pretty authoritarian.

He's toast on the economic stuff by the way, the volume of businesses together with the stock market and pound drops write the story in giant letters. Unless you think every report, announcement and stock movement is all part of one big conspiracy.

Can you point me to the evidence of that please? I can see articles with claims from Galloway but nothing (so far) to back up your point that Salmond or YES forced him off.

Ta.

[johnbc70]

Can you point me to the evidence of that please? I can see articles with claims from Galloway but nothing (so far) to back up your point that Salmond or YES forced him off.

Ta.
So is Galloway on or off the debate tonight?

[CropleyWasGod]

Just watched this exchange and I've been chewing it over all day (the banks moving their brass plaques- possibly).

Salmond's answer has eased my concerns, as has RBS's statement that no jobs would be moving. I would assume most of the banks mentioned would follow the same approach.

My question is, are there NO revenues that we would lose from this Brass Plaque exercise should it happen? VAT for instance? He did mention Corporation Tax was based on economic activity.
Very little, if anything.

A holding company, which is what would be moved, wouldn't DO anything. ...Other than be the focus of the regulators.

The actual trading would continue to be done by the subsidiaries.

[southsider]

Voting yes, I really dont see any reason not to.
So here we are with freedom, within our sweety, greedy grasp. But remember this, boys and girls, when this freedom comes along don't p*sh in the water supply.

[DaveF]

So is Galloway on or off the debate tonight?

Off, according to the articles I read.

Tune in at 9pm to find out :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Off, according to the articles I read.

Tune in at 9pm to find out :greengrin

On according to the avert for it on telly about half an hour ago.

Not frightened of Galloway ... I share quite a few of his left wing views. but if you push the right buttons even the stuff he says that makes sense starts to sound like pish.

[GlesgaeHibby]

So is Galloway on or off the debate tonight?

On and scored a massive own goal for the no campaign, brought up similarities between nationalists/yes campaign and hitler.

Resounding victory for yes according to twitter.

[SkintHibby]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

[DaveF]

On and scored a massive own goal for the no campaign, brought up similarities between nationalists/yes campaign and hitler.

Resounding victory for yes according to twitter.

Oh right. I'll need to learn to read properly :agree:

[Beefster]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

You're going to take defeat, if it happens, well, huh?

PS. Most of your hysterical rant is nonsense.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

Chill mate ........... it aint over till its over :aok:

[johnbc70]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

We all have our own reasons, some quite personal, for voting Yes or No. To say shame on each and every one who votes No is I feel taking this too far. We live in a democracy and you should respect what people choose.

Anyway if there is a No vote you will have no problem getting a job as psychic as you seem to be able to predict the future.

[#FromTheCapital]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

Pathetic.

[Stranraer]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

I think that's a bit much mate. While I agree the welfare state is being decimated, there is no guarantee Britain will leave the EU and although I'm nervous about the coalition's plans for the NHS I wouldn't say for sure it will mean a definite end to free health care.

Seriously I hope we vote Yes, I think we can do better outside the union but we need to be careful not to overreact. A few more polls are due out and you never know - I think the momentum is with the Yes campaign.

It's not relevant at all to the overall picture but I'm pleased with the response I've had on the doorstep recently, the Yes shop in town was very busy today and full of a lot of undecided voters.

[Stranraer]

The fact that Galloway is sharing a platform with Davidson bemuses me. I know he likes to refer to Scottish indy as "partition" but seriously, comparing the YES camp to Hitler?

[One Day Soon]

Off, according to the articles I read.

Tune in at 9pm to find out :greengrin

He was invited on to the debate by the BBC - in writing - following various discussions between BBC and Better Together. Parallel talks on format and speakers were taking place between BBC and Yes Scotland.

Hours later he was 'disinvited', which of course had nothing to do with the SNP twisting the arms of BBC Scotland to try and make sure that an effective performer was nobbled. Basically as soon as they heard that BT wanted to field Galloway rather than Murphy they panicked.

He and Better Together then made clear that they would be turning up with him the next day anyway as one of their speakers so the BBC could like it or lump it. All this erupted on to the news and social media last night when Galloway went public with what the BBC had done. This morning the BBC had a lot of complaints over them trying to dictate who Better Together could choose as their speakers. When the volume of complaints got to a certain point they caved and accepted Galloway.

When Yes heard this they responded by saying that Sturgeon now wouldn't do it - whether that was because she was crapping it over Galloway or for some other reason isn't clear. Some time later it was announced that Sturgeon would do it after all.

This morning's extraordinary 'press conference' with the cheerleaders where Salmond was in pretty tetchy defensive mode was probably mainly as a result of the Galloway/Sturgeon manouevers which he knew they couldn't win on and a consequence of yesterday's news across a range of economic fronts. He basically was taken to the cleaners on a mix of still not having answers on outstanding questions like £/currency union and on being unable to explain away negative market reaction to the prospect of a Yes vote or to counter the stuff on companies moving and/or prices rising etc.

I think he's been able to surf on top of not having answers on the economic stuff for as long as Yes wasn't looking like a serious threat in the polls. As soon as the Sunday YouGov poll came out showing Yes ahead he was never going to get away with bluffing it because at that point press and public were for the first time staring at the serious prospect of possible independence so they were demanding answers. That's also why you have started to see worried business voices going public.

Not sure where it goes from here. Earlier today Swinney was conceding that in order to get currency union with the pound an indie Scotland would be willing to cede or share some fiscal powers - ie our tax and our spending levels. Now that means you are no longer talking about full independence. I think if he was conceding even a little of that this morning on radio (I think it was radio 4) you can basically read it as "we are in desperate trouble, pound and currency union credibility is critical to swing voters - and more importantly to business interests who are freaking out about indie without the pound - so we need to give something to get closer to it." It looks like a slide in polls to me but let's see.

The other interesting thing is those YouGov polls, the second of which put Yes at 51% and No at 49%. There is something wrong with those. They are out of kilter with most of the others and there's even a statistical anomaly between the last two You Gov polls themselves. Now you can say that a No supporter would say that given that the last one put Yes ahead. On the other hand it would probably have been a lot better for Yes not to have been ahead last weekend but to get to that position or even just this coming weekend instead with little time left for No to do anything about it. I'm not implying a conspiracy here - Rupert Murdoch bought and paid for the poll and he's clearly supporting Salmond so has no agenda to damage yes. I just think I suppose that You Gov polls are a bit suspect at the moment.

[PeeJay]

Looks more likely by the day we are going to be stuck in this lop sided union.

Thank you everyone who is going to vote NO for.......

Many more years of tory rule.
Many more years of young Scottish lads dying in illegal wars.
Many more years of jobs with zero hour contracts.
The end of free health care.
The end of the welfare state.
The end of our membership of the EU.
The end of the Barnett formula.

The first country to turn down the chance of independence.

Shame on each and every one of you.

The first country apart from Quebec I suppose who turned it down twice ... your post is shockingly ill-advised and will not sit well with the separatists wanting independence for a more caring and fairer society - (in your case obviously only for this who are not Tories and not No voters ... or those who agree with you) ...

[DaveF]

He was invited on to the debate by the BBC - in writing - following various discussions between BBC and Better Together. Parallel talks on format and speakers were taking place between BBC and Yes Scotland.

Hours later he was 'disinvited', which of course had nothing to do with the SNP twisting the arms of BBC Scotland to try and make sure that an effective performer was nobbled. Basically as soon as they heard that BT wanted to field Galloway rather than Murphy they panicked.

He and Better Together then made clear that they would be turning up with him the next day anyway as one of their speakers so the BBC could like it or lump it. All this erupted on to the news and social media last night when Galloway went public with what the BBC had done. This morning the BBC had a lot of complaints over them trying to dictate who Better Together could choose as their speakers. When the volume of complaints got to a certain point they caved and accepted Galloway.

When Yes heard this they responded by saying that Sturgeon now wouldn't do it - whether that was because she was crapping it over Galloway or for some other reason isn't clear. Some time later it was announced that Sturgeon would do it after all.

This morning's extraordinary 'press conference' with the cheerleaders where Salmond was in pretty tetchy defensive mode was probably mainly as a result of the Galloway/Sturgeon manouevers which he knew they couldn't win on and a consequence of yesterday's news across a range of economic fronts. He basically was taken to the cleaners on a mix of still not having answers on outstanding questions like £/currency union and on being unable to explain away negative market reaction to the prospect of a Yes vote or to counter the stuff on companies moving and/or prices rising etc.

I think he's been able to surf on top of not having answers on the economic stuff for as long as Yes wasn't looking like a serious threat in the polls. As soon as the Sunday YouGov poll came out showing Yes ahead he was never going to get away with bluffing it because at that point press and public were for the first time staring at the serious prospect of possible independence so they were demanding answers. That's also why you have started to see worried business voices going public.

Not sure where it goes from here. Earlier today Swinney was conceding that in order to get currency union with the pound an indie Scotland would be willing to cede or share some fiscal powers - ie our tax and our spending levels. Now that means you are no longer talking about full independence. I think if he was conceding even a little of that this morning on radio (I think it was radio 4) you can basically read it as "we are in desperate trouble, pound and currency union credibility is critical to swing voters - and more importantly to business interests who are freaking out about indie without the pound - so we need to give something to get closer to it." It looks like a slide in polls to me but let's see.

The other interesting thing is those YouGov polls, the second of which put Yes at 51% and No at 49%. There is something wrong with those. They are out of kilter with most of the others and there's even a statistical anomaly between the last two You Gov polls themselves. Now you can say that a No supporter would say that given that the last one put Yes ahead. On the other hand it would probably have been a lot better for Yes not to have been ahead last weekend but to get to that position or even just this coming weekend instead with little time left for No to do anything about it. I'm not implying a conspiracy here - Rupert Murdoch bought and paid for the poll and he's clearly supporting Salmond so has no agenda to damage yes. I just think I suppose that You Gov polls are a bit suspect at the moment.

All very good but as I asked earlier can you post me a link to where this is all laid out. If there isn't one then I'm assuming you'll be naming your source for such concrete evidence?

I've seen the articles but nothing about arm twisting by the SNP.

Ta.

[bawheid]

You can't help but feel that Better Together know they're losing the poll and have thrown Galloway in as a measure of last resort. He's a maverick, he would either go down a storm with the kids or completely bomb.

Putting him on the podium seems a bit desperate IMO.

[Swedish hibee]

The scare tactics being used by the No campaign is truly staggering and shocking

[One Day Soon]

All very good but as I asked earlier can you post me a link to where this is all laid out. If there isn't one then I'm assuming you'll be naming your source for such concrete evidence?

I've seen the articles but nothing about arm twisting by the SNP.

Ta.


Tell you what, I've done my best to give some insider insight as to what went on. If you don't like it or accept it then fine. If for some bizarre reason you imagine I am making it up that's fine too.

I don't have an agenda on this - if I wanted to be using it win over votes for No I wouldn't be wasting my time posting to ten men and a ferret on a reasonably obscure thread on a Hibs forum, I'd be doing it somewhere with a much, much bigger reach. If you imagine that I have evidence in the form of tape recordings, emails or whatever then you must imagine that politicians of all parties are a lot thicker than they actually are.

Look at it another way. Why would McQuarrie, the head guy at BBC Scotland, write to Galloway to invite him on and then contact him hours later to 'disinvite' him? What else do you imagine happened in the intervening period to cause that turn around?

[Bristolhibby]

The first country apart from Quebec I suppose who turned it down twice ... your post is shockingly ill-advised and will not sit well with the separatists wanting independence for a more caring and fairer society - (in your case obviously only for this who are not Tories and not No voters ... or those who agree with you) ...

Is Quebec a country or a region of Canada? Has Quebec ever been an independent country?

J

[southsider]

The fact that Galloway is sharing a platform with Davidson bemuses me. I know he likes to refer to Scottish indy as "partition" but seriously, comparing the YES camp to Hitler?
The more that the NO camp brings these clowns up from London the better YES like it. We even had Prescott up yesterday calling for a UK football team. Labour know that without the Scots votes in the westminster elections they will NEVER see power again. They are so scared for their own jobs.

[Future17]

He was invited on to the debate by the BBC - in writing - following various discussions between BBC and Better Together. Parallel talks on format and speakers were taking place between BBC and Yes Scotland.

Hours later he was 'disinvited', which of course had nothing to do with the SNP twisting the arms of BBC Scotland to try and make sure that an effective performer was nobbled. Basically as soon as they heard that BT wanted to field Galloway rather than Murphy they panicked.

He and Better Together then made clear that they would be turning up with him the next day anyway as one of their speakers so the BBC could like it or lump it. All this erupted on to the news and social media last night when Galloway went public with what the BBC had done. This morning the BBC had a lot of complaints over them trying to dictate who Better Together could choose as their speakers. When the volume of complaints got to a certain point they caved and accepted Galloway.

When Yes heard this they responded by saying that Sturgeon now wouldn't do it - whether that was because she was crapping it over Galloway or for some other reason isn't clear. Some time later it was announced that Sturgeon would do it after all.

The story I heard was that "No" had changed their minds about having Galloway after "questions" were raised about his current ability.

Those fears seem to be being realised...

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's doing the rounds that some yes kids tonight were asked to sit amongst don't knows and no's for the debate,to make up the numbers.

[MyJo]

The story I heard was that "No" had changed their minds about having Galloway after "questions" were raised about his current ability.

Those fears seem to be being realised...

I dont get why BBC Scotland would have thier arm twisted by the SNP either, the BBC are hardly giving favourable coverage to the Yes campaign?

[johnbc70]

The more that the NO camp brings these clowns up from London the better YES like it. We even had Prescott up yesterday calling for a UK football team. Labour know that without the Scots votes in the westminster elections they will NEVER see power again. They are so scared for their own jobs.

Did I not read Labour would have won the 97, 01 and 05 elections without the Scottish votes?

[DaveF]

Tell you what, I've done my best to give some insider insight as to what went on. If you don't like it or accept it then fine. If for some bizarre reason you imagine I am making it up that's fine too.

I don't have an agenda on this - if I wanted to be using it win over votes for No I wouldn't be wasting my time posting to ten men and a ferret on a reasonably obscure thread on a Hibs forum, I'd be doing it somewhere with a much, much bigger reach. If you imagine that I have evidence in the form of tape recordings, emails or whatever then you must imagine that politicians of all parties are a lot thicker than they actually are.

Look at it another way. Why would McQuarrie, the head guy at BBC Scotland, write to Galloway to invite him on and then contact him hours later to 'disinvite' him? What else do you imagine happened in the intervening period to cause that turn around?

Christ, I only asked you for a link :greengrin

It's fine, you've answered my question in a roundabout way and this 1 of 10 doesn't believe you.

[MyJo]

Did I not read Labour would have won the 97, 01 and 05 elections without the Scottish votes?

And 10 years ago the prospect of a party like UKIP being taken seriously would have been inconceivable, now they are being talked about as potential coalition parters with the Tories after the next general election.

Times Change,

[Leith Green]

Have to say, anyone who wasn't sure before watching that will surely be voting yes.. The Yes were head and shoulders above No. One group want the best for the scottish people, the other keep banging on and twisting what banks and shops are saying

[johnbc70]

And 10 years ago the prospect of a party like UKIP being taken seriously would have been inconceivable, now they are being talked about as potential coalition parters with the Tories after the next general election.

Times Change,

Don't let the fact that every opinion poll shows Labour will win the next general election get in the way. Out of the last 100 polls Labour are ahead of the Tories.

[One Day Soon]

The story I heard was that "No" had changed their minds about having Galloway after "questions" were raised about his current ability.

Those fears seem to be being realised...

Nope, not at all. Have a look on twitter some time. Galloway - for reasons I don't fully get - is like a silver bullet with a lot of Don't Knows and with the top 15% or so of both Yes and No voters. They love him, God knows why, but they do.

[RyeSloan]

Wow....the world has gone slightly mad.

Arguments on both sides becoming ever more furious and ever more polarised.

It's all been a bit of a slow moving car crash with claims and counter claims slowly building up into a maddening crescendo.

I find the lack of actual detail and firm proposals absolutely disgusting...it's like one huge political charade but on it hangs one of the biggest decisions of many generations.

[One Day Soon]

It's doing the rounds that some yes kids tonight were asked to sit amongst don't knows and no's for the debate,to make up the numbers.

They were and both sides are entitled to be angry about it in a way. It means that the audience was incorrectly sampled with an imbalance of more than Yes than No to start with and it also means that Yes people were expected to 'play' at being No.

The wost of it is that kids at 16 and 17 really should not be experiencing that kind of manipulation at their first introduction to democratic participation.

[One Day Soon]

Christ, I only asked you for a link :greengrin

It's fine, you've answered my question in a roundabout way and this 1 of 10 doesn't believe you.


You should, because its the absolute truth. What does he ferret think?

[Leith Green]

Another BBC news at ten, another complete brainwashing attempt, just getting so ridiculous.. How are the high percentage of scots voting Yes ever meant to trust the Government, the media, or the license fee supported BBC if it is a no vote

Im not embarrassed of any of my fellow countrymen voting No, that is their democratic right, i am embarrassed however by this campaign of sheer bias in a so called democracy..

So one sided and you have to wonder what state they would be in without it.

[bawheid]

You should, because its the absolute truth. What does he ferret think?

Every post on this thread is the absolute truth.

[DaveF]

You should, because its the absolute truth. What does he ferret think?

If it's the absolute truth then you'll give me a link where i can read it for myself or you'll name a source to give it some substance.

Otherwise, it's just a No supporters point of view.

The ferret doesn't give a flying one. He's not voting.

[One Day Soon]

Have to say, anyone who wasn't sure before watching that will surely be voting yes.. The Yes were head and shoulders above No. One group want the best for the scottish people, the other keep banging on and twisting what banks and shops are saying

You're entitled to your opinion. Tonight's poll suggest otherwise though.

YouGov have been very good for Yes in their last three polls with three big lurches from No to Yes culminating in a Yes lead of two points at the last one. Tonight they put No in front by four points and the polling didn't include the last two days of car crash coverage for Yes. That's quite a swing. It looks a lot like voters have been to the very edge, looked down and 5hat it.

Unless something dramatic happens before or at the weekend I'd say Yes are in pretty serious bother.

[One Day Soon]

Every post on this thread is the absolute truth.

Um, I've read a lot of them and they're not. Especially the ones involving numbers.

[Stranraer]

Galloway's closing speech was below par, I like him and ordered his new book but seriously, referring to WW2 in a 2014 Scottish independence referendum?

[JimBHibees]

I dont get why BBC Scotland would have thier arm twisted by the SNP either, the BBC are hardly giving favourable coverage to the Yes campaign?

Yep file that under made up nonsense.

Galloway an absolute joke.

Why no Labour rep? Too busy having liquid dinners with their BBC mates?

[The Harp Awakes]

Have to say, anyone who wasn't sure before watching that will surely be voting yes.. The Yes were head and shoulders above No. One group want the best for the scottish people, the other keep banging on and twisting what banks and shops are saying

My daughter attended the event today. The overall impression of the kids that she spoke to after the event was that Nicola Sturgeon was the most impressive by far.

Having watched it myself, Sturgeon was clearly the star of the show.

[bawheid]

Um, I've read a lot of them and they're not.

Exactly.

[One Day Soon]

If it's the absolute truth then you'll give me a link where i can read it for myself or you'll name a source to give it some substance.

Otherwise, it's just a No supporters point of view.

The ferret doesn't give a flying one. He's not voting.


I know from previous exchanges that you're not as naive as you are pretending to be. If I give you a source it fries either someone at the BBC or someone in the SNP and that's not gonna happen.

Just take it as a No supporters point of view if you are happier with that. I can't really see what on earth I or anyone else would have to gain from making it up. Just about everyone here ( I say everyone, we could pretty much meet in a taxi) has already made their minds up so all I'm doing is sharing what I know.

It is remiss of you not to have registered the ferret. It will come back to bite you.

[DaveF]

You're entitled to your opinion. Tonight's poll suggest otherwise though.

YouGov have been very good for Yes in their last three polls with three big lurches from No to Yes culminating in a Yes lead of two points at the last one. Tonight they put No in front by four points and the polling didn't include the last two days of car crash coverage for Yes. That's quite a swing. It looks a lot like voters have been to the very edge, looked down and 5hat it.

Unless something dramatic happens before or at the weekend I'd say Yes are in pretty serious bother.

Given YES were -20 (going back 4 polls) to take a small lead then sit at -4 leaves things more or less in the melting pot I'd say.

The bit in bold?

Taken from the Yougov site "YouGov questioned 1,268 electors online between Tuesday September 9 and Thursday September 11"

[johnbc70]

Another BBC news at ten, another complete brainwashing attempt, just getting so ridiculous.. How are the high percentage of scots voting Yes ever meant to trust the Government, the media, or the license fee supported BBC if it is a no vote

Im not embarrassed of any of my fellow countrymen voting No, that is their democratic right, i am embarrassed however by this campaign of sheer bias in a so called democracy..

So one sided and you have to wonder what state they would be in without it.

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

[Leith Green]

I think that once the No run out of their current negative downing of all thing Scottish, we will see another surge towards Yes, the No campaign has centred on negativity from the start, ran out of ideas, and are now regurgitating the same spiel again, this has recently been proved to sway voters to Yes and another week of the same will do more damage come next week, it had an immediate minor effect on polls this week, but where do they go next week?

[DaveF]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

Did you see the video clip posted further up this thread (I think) which is 7 mins long showing Nick Robinson's question and Salmond's answer?

If you didn't, give it a watch and then compare it to Robinson's BBC report. (If the one at 10 is the same as the one shown at 6pm) and then, honestly give your opinion on it.

We all know you're voting intentions so no arm twisting going on - just looking for your thoughts on it.

edit - here's the link to it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHmLb-RIbrM&feature=youtu.be

Compare Robinson's twitter with that of Robert Peston (https://twitter.com/Peston) - I've not seen it reported anywhere that Call me Dave had the shop bosses in for tea.

[Leith Green]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

Are you honestly trying to tell me their reporting of events has been impartial?

[Pretty Boy]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

It's funny how the head of Aberdeen Asset Management, Scotlands largest fund manager, saying an iScotland could be a success is tacked on at the end of scare stories if mentioned at all yet RBS moving a brass plaque and changing the address on headed paper and John Lewis adding a few quid onto an already overpriced kettle is being reported as the end of the world as we know it.

The news is reporting what is being said and talked about but it's reporting in a very deliberate way. I said to a friend of mine today that, given the media bias that's been endured, if Yes come within 5% of No come next Thursday it will be nothing short of a miracle and a real victory for the power of grassroots campaigning.

[JimBHibees]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

Robinson has edited selectively massively his encounter with Salmond of which Goebbels would be proud. Completely shameless and hugely biased.

[One Day Soon]

Given YES were -20 (going back 4 polls) to take a small lead then sit at -4 leaves things more or less in the melting pot I'd say.

The bit in bold?

Taken from the Yougov site "YouGov questioned 1,268 electors online between Tuesday September 9 and Thursday September 11"


I think you're being optimistic on the first point but lets see what happens with the (2 I think) polls at the weekend.

I stand corrected on the second point on dates. However the fact that they were polling through today and had the results for this evening unerlines a point I was making. There is something ropey about those YouGov polls and the speed of turnaround isn't reassuring about their quality of weighting etc. With a three point margin of error in all polls we really want them done as watertight as possible. That lead could be as small as 1 point or as big as seven.

[DaveF]

Robinson has edited selectively massively his encounter with Salmond of which Goebbels would be proud. Completely shameless and hugely biased.

Well, I wouldn't expect him to air the footage of himself heckling the first minister of Scotland but his report was, as you say, shameless.

[johnbc70]

Did you see the video clip posted further up this thread (I think) which is 7 mins long showing Nick Robinson's question and Salmond's answer?

If you didn't, give it a watch and then compare it to Robinson's BBC report. (If the one at 10 is the same as the one shown at 6pm) and then, honestly give your opinion on it.

We all know you're voting intentions so no arm twisting going on - just looking for your thoughts on it.

edit - here's the link to it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHmLb-RIbrM&feature=youtu.be

Compare Robinson's twitter with that of Robert Peston (https://twitter.com/Peston) - I've not seen it reported anywhere that Call me Dave had the shop bosses in for tea.

Seemed like a fair representation to me.............ha ha. No, I do admit what happened earlier in the day on that clip in no way reflected what was on the news. The guy was made a fool of so he is not going to highlight it on the national 10 O'clock news though is he. I still have no evidence to suggest the BBC is brainwashing me or anyone else.

[One Day Soon]

It's funny how the head of Aberdeen Asset Management, Scotlands largest fund manager, saying an iScotland could be a success is tacked on at the end of scare stories if mentioned at all yet RBS moving a brass plaque and changing the address on headed paper and John Lewis adding a few quid onto an already overpriced kettle is being reported as the end of the world as we know it.

The news is reporting what is being said and talked about but it's reporting in a very deliberate way. I said to a friend of mine today that, given the media bias that's been endured, if Yes come within 5% of No come next Thursday it will be nothing short of a miracle and a real victory for the power of grassroots campaigning.


Standard Life are already losing business to elsewhere in the UK. There have been commentaries from Krugman and Soros explaining the consequences, foreign investment companies have produced reports from Switzerland, Denmark and Japan on the damage that would be done, Carney has spelled out why currency union won't happen with independence (it can happen without out it, but that's more like Devo Max+ if there's such a thing) and why sterlingisation would cost so much in creating a reserve as to be unsustainable, there's John Lewis' concerns and they are a co-operative and so it goes on. These things cannot be wished away. The biggest weakness of Yes in this is that they haven't produced credible answers on core economic questions. If they had business would be a lot calmer.

I'm not saying the above to argue that coverage is or isn't biased. I'm saying that these are not things that Salmond can bluff his way past once people start paying close attention. And they have been doing that since the poll that put Yes ahead because that made the prospect of having to deal with these things in a new state a serious prospect. You won't like it but he's getting a spanking now because he hasn't done the homework he needed to have credible answers in place for just this possibility.

[DaveF]

Seemed like a fair representation to me.............ha ha. No, I do admit what happened earlier in the day on that clip in no way reflected what was on the news. The guy was made a fool of so he is not going to highlight it on the national 10 O'clock news though is he. I still have no evidence to suggest the BBC is brainwashing me or anyone else.

Umm....

[CropleyWasGod]

Standard Life are already losing business to elsewhere in the UK. There have been commentaries from Krugman and Soros explaining the consequences, foreign investment companies have produced reports from Switzerland, Denmark and Japan on the damage that would be done, Carney has spelled out why currency union won't happen with independence (it can happen without out it, but that's more like Devo Max+ if there's such a thing) and why sterlingisation would cost so much in creating a reserve as to be unsustainable, there's John Lewis' concerns and they are a co-operative and so it goes on. These things cannot be wished away. The biggest weakness of Yes in this is that they haven't produced credible answers on core economic questions. If they had business would be a lot calmer.

I'm not saying the above to argue that coverage is or isn't biased. I'm saying that these are not things that Salmond can bluff his way past once people start paying close attention. And they have been doing that since the poll that put Yes ahead because that made the prospect of having to deal with these things in a new state a serious prospect. You won't like it but he's getting a spanking now because he hasn't done the homework he needed to have credible answers in place for just this possibility.

Not according to Peston:-

I am told this is a precautionary statement by Standard Life, and that it has not seen a surge in withdrawals of funds or inquiries since opinion polls showed a growing prospect of Scots' voting for separation from the rest of the UK.

[johnbc70]

Umm....

Brainwashing though? Seriously?

[The Harp Awakes]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

The 'NEWS' which you refer to is only news because the BBC deems it to be news. Every business has contingency plans for a whole series of possible events. The BBC's headline coverage is sensationalism which when you delve underneath it, means the square root of bugger all. It is a non-story. No job losses or movement of operations. On top of that, those contingency plans will be entirely redundant in the event of a currency union, post-independence.

Therefore these items are only worthy of being 'NEWS' if you believe the Unionist position on a currency union, i.e., it won't happen. So the only conclusion you can make from the BBC running these 'headlines' is that the BBC supports the Unionist cause and therefore it's coverage IS unashamedly biased.

[Roxyhibee]

Seven days to go and a definite no from me - and most people I personally know, work and live beside. Thank goodness.

Always been a strong socialist and can't abide nationalism in any form. I've no problem being part of a currency union with neighbouring countries even if I go through periods of my politics not being elected. That's democracy. But in this current world, the harsh truth is that finance has to be strong first, before anything else - to serve peoples' needs and deliver any form of social justice.

And if you have some misty eyed view that an independent Scotland will always be Labour, then you must be pretty deluded and don't know your Scottish political history. A small country with a weakening economy looking for someone else to blame 10 years down the line could vote for literally any party. Don't fool yourself into thinking our values are unique and any morally higher from the other billions of people on the planet if the chips are really down.

The 'better together' campaign has been an amateur horror show though. Brown, Darling and Lamont have been lazy and about as charismatic as Billy Brown on Prozac on a slow motion replay. Shame on them for not bringing the real points forward sooner. They have bored me literally rigid. No wonder the majority of young people have rejected those bloodless husks.! Jeez..

Yes campaign has been bright, fun and well thought out. But close scrutiny shows it absolutely creaking with weakness, lies and what ifs in a still uncertain world. Very poor responses from Salmond recently on detail. A petulant, snorting, smug individual with no real answers when pressed by decent questions. He thinks he's quite a comical character - but this is 5 million peoples future his little student ego is playing with.

Whatever we choose though (please make it a union currency..!) everyone needs to buckle up and get going again. If its yes, I'll respect that and be the same proud Scot feeling privileged to be born here.

[One Day Soon]

Not according to Peston:-

I am told this is a precautionary statement by Standard Life, and that it has not seen a surge in withdrawals of funds or inquiries since opinion polls showed a growing prospect of Scots' voting for separation from the rest of the UK.

Think about it, if you were in that position would you broadcast it and risk a run? No, you wouldn't.

[johnbc70]

The 'NEWS' which you refer to is only news because the BBC deems it to be news. Every business has contingency plans for a whole series of possible events. The BBC's headline coverage is sensationalism which when you delve underneath it, means the square root of bugger all. It is a non-story. No job losses or movement of operations. On top of that, those contingency plans will be entirely redundant in the event of a currency union, post-independence.

Therefore these items are only worthy of being 'NEWS' if you believe the Unionist position on a currency union. So the only conclusion you can make from that, is that the BBC News supports The Unionist cause and therefore it's coverage IS unashamedly biased.

Out of interest what stories would you lead on if you were in charge of the BBC news tonight?

[DaveF]

Brainwashing though? Seriously?

Yep.

His report (where he outright lied) was up there with Comical Ali's 'No Tanks in Baghdad' in terms of presenting a story.

If it's not brainwashing, then what would you call it? Misleading, Lying, Deception......

[CropleyWasGod]

Out of interest what stories would you lead on if you were in charge of the BBC news tonight?

How about the FM reacting to the stories about "companies leaving" with some facts about tax and company law? ie some balance.

[johnbc70]

Yep.

His report (where he outright lied) was up there with Comical Ali's 'No Tanks in Baghdad' in terms of presenting a story.

If it's not brainwashing, then what would you call it? Misleading, Lying, Deception......

brainwashing

1.
a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
2.
any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion:
brainwashing by TV commercials.
3.
an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques:
efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

I guess you think its number 2?

[DaveF]

brainwashing

1.
a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
2.
any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion:
brainwashing by TV commercials.
3.
an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques:
efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.

I guess you think its number 2?

Dictionary corner - great! Gonna get us the other definitions too as you seem to have forgotten to pick a word?

Whatever it is, he lied, contorted a story and didn't give balance. For a supposedly impartial organisation it wasn't very......impartial IMO.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It is the BBC News, it reports on the NEWS of the day. What has been in the news today? Banks and Supermarkets coming out with the contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote and what the implications of that are. As far as I can see its reporting on the things that people are talking about or want to know about to help them make their decision. In what way would you say it was 'brainwashing'?

Brainwashing, for example even Reporting Scotland led with the banks are leaving blah blah blah....but they say no jobs will be lost. Why not lead with, No jobs threatened as banks register in England.

Bbc impartiality, my arse.

[The Harp Awakes]

I'll be voting no - in fact I don't personally know anyone (out of the few people I've discussed it with) who intends to vote yes. These things tend to work like that, you tend to hang around with people with similar opinions to yourself which can lead to a bit of an echo chamber forming.

Its a purely heart over head thing for me. I'm British and Scottish and I can't imagine being anything else. I'm proud to be British and Scottish. I was born that way and I'll die that way, a referendum can't change it.

Having said that my head says stay with the Union too. I think we'll be better off economically, be more stable and have more influence as part of the UK.

I would like change though. My own preferred solution would be to move to a federal model with separate Scottish, Welsh, N Irish, English (probably more than one English, maybe North, Mid, South and London) parliaments handling all local issues and a British parliament to deal with foreign policy, defence and serious crime.

I tend to agree with you about hanging about with folk with similar views and it's interesting to hear you say that you don't know anyone voting yes.

Out of 25 of my family and friends who have expressed an intention to vote one way, 24 have said they will/have vote/d yes. I play 5s three times a week alongside 3 different groups of guys and the vast majority are saying they will vote yes. When you have that experience, it does make you question what the opinion polls are saying about a no lead. I guess it could also be a location thing as well?

[johnbc70]

Dictionary corner - great! Gonna get us the other definitions too as you seem to have forgotten to pick a word?

Whatever it is, he lied, contorted a story and didn't give balance. For a supposedly impartial organisation it wasn't very......impartial IMO.

I agree it was not balanced and yes quite impartial (was that not enough for you!), but for someone to tell me I am being 'brainwashed' then they really need to produce more evidence than a BBC news report that lasted a few minutes. If you meant it in the loose sense of the word then fair enough, but I did challenge you and say 'seriously?' and you said yes.

[Pretty Boy]

https://m.facebook.com/amanda.ives.904/posts/10154685151395122?fref=nf

This doing the rounds on Twitter and Facebook at the moment.

Any truth in it?

[SRHibs]

https://m.facebook.com/amanda.ives.904/posts/10154685151395122?fref=nf

This doing the rounds on Twitter and Facebook at the moment.

Any truth in it?

What is it?

[johnbc70]

https://m.facebook.com/amanda.ives.904/posts/10154685151395122?fref=nf

This doing the rounds on Twitter and Facebook at the moment.

Any truth in it?

Is it saying there were asking them to sit somewhere different or to actually pretend they were a No when they were a Yes or a Dont Know. If the latter then that is totally wrong.

[The Harp Awakes]

Out of interest what stories would you lead on if you were in charge of the BBC news tonight?

The lead story tonight should have been the First Minister's response to the 3 amigos speeches the previous day which dominated the BBC news bulletins that day. Instead, the lead story from Edinburgh was the announcement by the Banks. Not very subtle by the BBC and a display of clear bias. Incidentally this same bias was displayed on the Reporting Scotland bulletin at 10:30 pm which ran the Banks story first.

Another headline tonight should have been coverage of today's debate at the Hydro attended by 8000 16/17 year olds; the biggest ever televised debate in Scotland. Instead the Hydro event was referred to at the end of the network news bulletin.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://m.facebook.com/amanda.ives.904/posts/10154685151395122?fref=nf

This doing the rounds on Twitter and Facebook at the moment.

Any truth in it?

Yes, my daughter attended the event and has verified this.

I think there is a petition doing the rounds tonight about the blatant BBC bias. Maybe someone can post the link?

Edit: here is the link:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1410431050

[Mibbes Aye]

This is completely anecdotal but it felt striking.

I was speaking to a colleague at work. Her daughter is in P6 and her school had being doing a lot of stuff around the referendum with them.

My son is in P6 and his school has done likewise.

They go to school in two different local authority areas, and one school is in a village, one in a town.

I know from talking to heads and the like, that they feel a lot of pressure to make sure the classroom discussions are as objective as possible - understandable given that potentially half the parents would be in uproar otherwise.

Anyway, the subject of the referendum has never come up yet domestically with my son - while I don't avoid talking politics to him I'm happier for it to be instigated by him.

As it transpires, both he and my colleague's daughter this week decided to raise it with us. Both were very clear that practically everyone in their class, bar one or two, were in the 'No' camp.

Anecdotal, yes. Many explanations, I'm sure.

But we come back to this question. We know women have been saying no in greater numbers than the average polling. Relatively mature children, being given a very objective picture of the two arguments, albeit on a small sample, seem to be overwhelmingly saying no.

Why is that?

[johnbc70]

Yes, my daughter attended the event and has verified this.

I think there is a petition doing the rounds tonight about the blatant BBC bias. Maybe someone can post the link?

Maybe DaveF is right after all!

[Mibbes Aye]

My daughter attended the event today. The overall impression of the kids that she spoke to after the event was that Nicola Sturgeon was the most impressive by far.

Having watched it myself, Sturgeon was clearly the star of the show.

I watched it.

Ruth Davidson roasted Nicola Sturgeon. Her invitation to Google what Nicola had said about the banks was a killer.

I was very disappointed in Patrick Harvie, he's been bigged up on here but he failed miserably on the big question for him - if you are a Green why would you sign up to a petro-economy. His response to that question was craven. He's surely better than that?

Galloway was Galloway. He can be an excellent orator but he can talk himself into an awful corner. Nevertheless, both sides need people to ask awkward questions of each other, that's how it works.

[CapitalGreen]

This is completely anecdotal but it felt striking.

I was speaking to a colleague at work. Her daughter is in P6 and her school had being doing a lot of stuff around the referendum with them.

My son is in P6 and his school has done likewise.

They go to school in two different local authority areas, and one school is in a village, one in a town.

I know from talking to heads and the like, that they feel a lot of pressure to make sure the classroom discussions are as objective as possible - understandable given that potentially half the parents would be in uproar otherwise.

Anyway, the subject of the referendum has never come up yet domestically with my son - while I don't avoid talking politics to him I'm happier for it to be instigated by him.

As it transpires, both he and my colleague's daughter this week decided to raise it with us. Both were very clear that practically everyone in their class, bar one or two, were in the 'No' camp.

Anecdotal, yes. Many explanations, I'm sure.

But we come back to this question. We know women have been saying no in greater numbers than the average polling. Relatively mature children, being given a very objective picture of the two arguments, albeit on a small sample, seem to be overwhelmingly saying no.

Why is that?

Children are more likely to motivated by system justification and status-quo bias. I'll find the papers I read at uni around this area and post them up as they are really quite interesting.

[snooky]

I tend to agree with you about hanging about with folk with similar views and it's interesting to hear you say that you don't know anyone voting yes.

Out of 25 of my family and friends who have expressed an intention to vote one way, 24 have said they will/have vote/d yes. I play 5s three times a week alongside 3 different groups of guys and the vast majority are saying they will vote yes. When you have that experience, it does make you question what the opinion polls are saying about a no lead. I guess it could also be a location thing as well?

In my varied circle of friends, one (who is a definite NO voter) said that I was the only YES voter he knew personally.
I responded by saying (truthfully) that he was only one of two people I knew who were voting NO. He looked quite shocked.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Right ..... lets forget all this head stuff and lets have a wee stab at the heart. You will all know this one:

"For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself"


That statement was made under very different circumstances from today .... there is no giant army massed on the border waiting to burn towns and slaughter populations. But in every sense of the word since that statement was made this country has been swallowed up by England every bit as much as if we had been invaded ....... instead we can call it assimilation.

Every financial institution of any note in the end looks first to England, every financial subsidy on which Scots rely is financed by the greater UK ... by definition of size that means England.

We will be denied use of the pound because it belongs to England.

Every UK embassy or consulate in the world will be denied to Scotland post independence ... they belong to England then. Even our sports stars will scramble for good facilities because they are in England .... seen some athletes say that will influence their vote.

Better together have made much of these points in their campaign and use them to persuade people to vote no. The say the UK but c'mon, lets be realistic here, in this context that's England in all but name. That is no intended insult to Wales or N Ireland .. their tiny populations sideline them in this.

The point I am making is that in a process of creeping death England's economic hold over us is so complete that we can now never break free ... even if the ties with England are beneficial the effect is the same, we are assimilated in all but the legal sense. That as far as I can see is the crux of the better together argument.

But is there nobody out there whose heart outweighs the contents of their purse .... is that all that folks pride in their nation amounts to now? ...... fear of mortgage or bank interest rates ... fear of change, fear of the responsibility of running their own country.

Stupid ...... maybe
Romantic pish ..... possibly
Unrealisic ...... I dare say

But that's how I feel.

[Mibbes Aye]

Children are more likely to motivated by system justification and status-quo bias. I'll find the papers I read at uni around this area and post them up as they are really quite interesting.

Really?

(I don't doubt the papers are interesting, I'm more concerned with why the children are thinking the way they do)

If roughly half the electorate are definitively yes, then how does that theory work?

If, as described on here, streets and communities are yes, then how does that theory work?

It doesn't.

At the very least, you do come across as a bit patronising about the abilities of ten year-olds to interpret an argument and make a value judgement.

Is that what you think about women?

[Mibbes Aye]

Right ..... lets forget all this head stuff and lets have a wee stab at the heart. You will all know this one:

"For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself"


That statement was made under very different circumstances from today .... there is no giant army massed on the border waiting to burn towns and slaughter populations. But in every sense of the word since that statement was made this country has been swallowed up by England every bit as much as if we had been invaded ....... instead we can call it assimilation.

Every financial institution of any note in the end looks first to England, every financial subsidy on which Scots rely is financed by the greater UK ... by definition of size that means England.

We will be denied use of the pound because it belongs to England.

Every UK embassy or consulate in the world will be denied to Scotland post independence ... they belong to England then. Even our sports stars will scramble for good facilities because they are in England .... seen some athletes say that will influence their vote.

Better together have made much of these points in their campaign and use them to persuade people to vote no. The say the UK but c'mon, lets be realistic here, in this context that's England in all but name. That is no intended insult to Wales or N Ireland .. their tiny populations sideline them in this.

The point I am making is that in a process of creeping death England's economic hold over us is so complete that we can now never break free ... even if the ties with England are beneficial the effect is the same, we are assimilated in all but the legal sense. That as far as I can see is the crux of the better together argument.

But is there nobody out there whose heart outweighs the contents of their purse .... is that all that folks pride in their nation amounts to now? ...... fear of mortgage or bank interest rates ... fear of change, fear of the responsibility of running their own country.

Stupid ...... maybe
Romantic pish ..... possibly
Unrealisic ...... I dare say

But that's how I feel.

I'm Scottish I guess :greengrin. As it goes, my children can call themselves Scottish, English, British or Irish (and play sports for those nations).

They will probably have children. Those children will be Scottish, English, British and potentially any of two hundred-odd nationalities.

I'm sure i'm like many people in Scotland.

Why do you have to have a bogeyman? Why an English bogeyman?

What are you scared of?

[snooky]

Right ..... lets forget all this head stuff and lets have a wee stab at the heart. You will all know this one:

"For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself"


That statement was made under very different circumstances from today .... there is no giant army massed on the border waiting to burn towns and slaughter populations. But in every sense of the word since that statement was made this country has been swallowed up by England every bit as much as if we had been invaded ....... instead we can call it assimilation.

Every financial institution of any note in the end looks first to England, every financial subsidy on which Scots rely is financed by the greater UK ... by definition of size that means England.

We will be denied use of the pound because it belongs to England.

Every UK embassy or consulate in the world will be denied to Scotland post independence ... they belong to England then. Even our sports stars will scramble for good facilities because they are in England .... seen some athletes say that will influence their vote.

Better together have made much of these points in their campaign and use them to persuade people to vote no. The say the UK but c'mon, lets be realistic here, in this context that's England in all but name. That is no intended insult to Wales or N Ireland .. their tiny populations sideline them in this.

The point I am making is that in a process of creeping death England's economic hold over us is so complete that we can now never break free ... even if the ties with England are beneficial the effect is the same, we are assimilated in all but the legal sense. That as far as I can see is the crux of the better together argument.

But is there nobody out there whose heart outweighs the contents of their purse .... is that all that folks pride in their nation amounts to now? ...... fear of mortgage or bank interest rates ... fear of change, fear of the responsibility of running their own country.

Stupid ...... maybe
Romantic pish ..... possibly
Unrealisic ...... I dare say

But that's how I feel.

What is the price of Freedom?
Can someone tell me?
...£1500 a year? - Let's shake on it. Deal!
...£15% dearer groceries - I'll take it, cheap at the price.
...We won't get BBC anymore - nowadays I'd say that's a bonus, TBH

Well? What is the market price of freedom?
Should I check ebay?

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm Scottish I guess :greengrin. As it goes, my children can call themselves Scottish, English, British or Irish (and play sports for those nations).

They will probably have children. Those children will be Scottish, English, British and potentially any of two hundred-odd nationalities.

I'm sure i'm like many people in Scotland.

Why do you have to have a bogeyman? Why an English bogeyman?

What are you scared of?

FYI .... I can play for Scotland, England and Northern Ireland ... If any of my ancestors were at Bannockburn ... they lost : - )

The big bit to the south is called England is it not. I didn't even say our position was England's fault .... it is in every way our fault. It could be France the USA whatever.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What is the price of Freedom?
Can someone tell me?
...£1500 a year? - Let's shake on it. Deal!
...£15% dearer groceries - I'll take it, cheap at the price.
...We won't get BBC anymore - nowadays I'd say that's a bonus, TBH

Well? What is the market price of freedom?
Should I check ebay?

Depends on who you listen to :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

FYI .... I can play for Scotland, England and Northern Ireland ... If any of my ancestors were at Bannockburn ... they lost : - )

The big bit to the south is called England is it not. I didn't even say our position was England's fault .... it is in every way our fault. It could be France the USA whatever.

You just made up stuff and blamed it on the English - to be helpful to you, that's counter-productive given there's a helluva lot of English people in Scotland who have a vote :wink:

[JimBHibees]

I watched it.

Ruth Davidson roasted Nicola Sturgeon. Her invitation to Google what Nicola had said about the banks was a killer.

I was very disappointed in Patrick Harvie, he's been bigged up on here but he failed miserably on the big question for him - if you are a Green why would you sign up to a petro-economy. His response to that question was craven. He's surely better than that?

Galloway was Galloway. He can be an excellent orator but he can talk himself into an awful corner. Nevertheless, both sides need people to ask awkward questions of each other, that's how it works.

Wow we're you watching with the mute button on. Incredible assessment, Galloway was an embarrassment and Sturgeon was by miles the best.

[Hibs7]

Is that you, Nigel? :)

We (Scotland that is, whoever we elect) would get the money from the same place we've had it for the last 15 years ie the Scottish tax payer. The difference is....we'd get all of it, and not have anything hacked off it for wars and Trident.
There is not enough people working in Scotland to pay for all the services required .. Police , NHS etc this is where Salmonds figures all collapse in a heap go try and find anything that adds up . Because you can't !! Lies, lies and more lies from the Yes campaign!!

[Hibs7]

If free child care gets more parents working then they'll pay more tax and it pays for itself. That's why there's no point doing it in a devolved setup as we pay the costs of provision but don't get the benefit of increased tax revenue. Of course, if it doesn't increase working numbers it won't work and will be scrapped.

There is no plan to lower retiral age, just a promise to review whether we still need to raise it post-independence. My expectation (fwiw) is that we will still need to raise it.

Increased immigration increases the working age population, and increases the total tax take. The myth of "immigrant scroungers" is Daily Mail/UKIP pish. Scotland needs population growth, so we need to attract migrants or get making babies!

The pat answer ... But WHERE are the jobs and not all mothers will go back to work, some will do part time so again your figures don' t add up !!

[Beefster]

I think the longer some Yes campaigners whine on about the English, conspiracies, leaks, the BBC, the right-wing press (although that one has surprisingly died down a bit since the rumours of Rupert Murdoch and the Sun supporting Yes began), how the No voters are a disgrace to their nation etc etc etc, the happier the No campaign will be.

We've gone from gloating and metaphorical jigs at the weekend to as hysterical as it's ever been in the space of 4-5 days.

[Leith Green]

Wow we're you watching with the mute button on. Incredible assessment, Galloway was an embarrassment and Sturgeon was by miles the best.

The funniest point was Galloway and Davidson talking about oil running out, this was countered by Sturgeon, Davidson then repeated what Kemp had allegedly said, the presenter then actually read the part of Kemps statement which was relevant to what was being discussed, surprise surprise it was not what was in line with what No were saying...

This whole campaign by No has been a negative twisting of anything to do with Scottish affairs, they have kept up with this scaremongering , banks, shop prices, then coupled with the media putting us beside North Korea and one sidedly reporting events, it leaves a sour taste in the mouth..

There is going to be some fall out in the event of a No vote, you are going to have half(ish) of the Scottish electorate unable to trust their so called government, their publicly funded TV station, the banks, certain retailers, and the British media, all for the benefit of around ten per cent of voters who are undecided..

On a personal note, i spend £100 a week in asda, pay my TV licence, and occasionally shop in john Lewis, I will not give any of them another penny, Cameron has leaned on them and they have become involved in something where they should be neutral.. I will shop in Tesco from now on, at least they had the balls to not become a puppet to the sinister NO campaigns scaremongering

As for the banks, they have not even said jobs etc will be moved, but the scaremongering NO are trying to lead people down that path

[DaveF]

I think the longer the Yes campaigners whine on about the English, conspiracies, leaks, the BBC, the right-wing press (although that one has surprisingly died down a bit since the rumours of Rupert Murdoch and the Sun supporting Yes began), how the No voters are a disgrace to their nation etc etc etc, the happier the No campaign will be.

We've gone from gloating and metaphorically jigs at the weekend to as hysterical as it's ever been in the space of 4-5 days.

That's a pretty naff post from someone who normally puts a good case across.

Gloating and jigs? Sweeping generalisations of Yes supporters branding others as traitors, whining about the English?

You've been very quick to criticise name calling and hysteria yet embark on it yourself.

I think you need next Friday to arrive sooner rather than later.

[The Harp Awakes]

I watched it.

Ruth Davidson roasted Nicola Sturgeon. Her invitation to Google what Nicola had said about the banks was a killer.

I was very disappointed in Patrick Harvie, he's been bigged up on here but he failed miserably on the big question for him - if you are a Green why would you sign up to a petro-economy. His response to that question was craven. He's surely better than that?

Galloway was Galloway. He can be an excellent orator but he can talk himself into an awful corner. Nevertheless, both sides need people to ask awkward questions of each other, that's how it works.

Your posts have been pretty reasoned on this thread to date but I'm sorry, that is a completely ridiculous assessment. Whilst there will always be an element of 'yes' and 'no' tinted specs at play in assessing performances in a debate such as yesterday's at the Hydro, Sturgeon clearly connected with the audience to a much greater degree than the other 3 debaters. That was obvious in the audience's reaction to the various contributions.

Davidson talked a lot and constantly had to be checked for interrupting but had little impact with the audience based on their reaction.

Of the other 2, I agree with your assessment. Galloway was Galloway; entertaining but with little credibility. Harvie was poor compared to his previous performances in debates.

[Beefster]

That's a pretty naff post from someone who normally puts a good case across.

Gloating and jigs? Sweeping generalisations of Yes supporters branding others as traitors, whining about the English?

You've been very quick to criticise name calling and hysteria yet embark on it yourself.

I think you need next Friday to arrive sooner rather than later.

You're right. I should have made it clear I was referring to 'some' Yes campaigners.

The overall tone has undoubtedly changed since the weekend though.

I can't wait for it to be over but I'm entirely relaxed about it and don't actually think there's anything remotely hysterical about my post.

Edit: I've edited my original post to make it clear that I wasn't tarring everyone with the same brush (and correct a typo).

[CropleyWasGod]

There is not enough people working in Scotland to pay for all the services required .. Police , NHS etc this is where Salmonds figures all collapse in a heap go try and find anything that adds up . Because you can't !! Lies, lies and more lies from the Yes campaign!!
The Treasury has the figures, and has had for the past 35 years. You're welcome to look them up :)

[CapitalGreen]

Really?

(I don't doubt the papers are interesting, I'm more concerned with why the children are thinking the way they do)

If roughly half the electorate are definitively yes, then how does that theory work?

If, as described on here, streets and communities are yes, then how does that theory work?

It doesn't.

At the very least, you do come across as a bit patronising about the abilities of ten year-olds to interpret an argument and make a value judgement.

Is that what you think about women?

Sorry mate, I think you are confusing me with the authors of the papers. I was merely offering one possible explanation for your observed phenomenon. Seems strange behaviour to ask for expalanations only to then get annoyed when someone gives you one you don't like.

[DaveF]

You're right. I should have made it clear I was referring to 'some' Yes campaigners.

The overall tone has undoubtedly changed since the weekend though.

I can't wait for it to be over but I'm entirely relaxed about it and don't actually think there's anything remotely hysterical about my post.

Edit: I've edited my original post to make it clear that I wasn't tarring everyone with the same brush (and correct a typo).

Yes, I would agree with that and its down to (IMO) the massive PR campaign which has kicked in in favour of No. I feel the media has been less than fair in it's reporting (no doubt you won't) but that's the way it is.

Plenty media coverage of the shop bosses hinting at price rises - No mention of the tea and biccies meetings that Dave had with each one, urging them to get the statements out. Fair?

[johnbc70]

I will shop in Tesco from now on, at least they had the balls to not become a puppet to the sinister NO campaigns scaremongering

Your going to have to find another place to shop. http://www.cityam.com/1410443319/scottish-independence-now-tesco-bank-says-it-will-move-england

Tesco Bank and Tesco Supermarkets all part of Tesco Plc.

[DaveF]

Your going to have to find another place to shop. http://www.cityam.com/1410443319/scottish-independence-now-tesco-bank-says-it-will-move-england

Tesco Bank and Tesco Supermarkets all part of Tesco Plc.

I assume you just looked at the headline and never read the content.

[Leith Green]

Your going to have to find another place to shop. http://www.cityam.com/1410443319/scottish-independence-now-tesco-bank-says-it-will-move-england

Tesco Bank and Tesco Supermarkets all part of Tesco Plc.


Read your own link properly, it clearly states regardless of the outcome of the referendum, it goes onto further state that it is just the registered office of the company, would not affect operations.. Same as all the other banks, how come so many people are trying to twist these statements into saying something they dont? Do you folk actually read past a headline? These bank and shop statements have all been timed conveniently to provide headlines that are designed to shock people away from a Yes vote, and they are being turned into saying something they dont

[johnbc70]

Read your own link properly, it clearly states regardless of the outcome of the referendum, it goes onto further state that it is just the registered office of the company, would not affect operations.. Same as all the other banks, how come so many people are trying to twist these statements into saying something they dont? Do you folk actually read past a headline? These bank and shop statements have all been timed conveniently to provide headlines that are designed to shock people away from a Yes vote, and they are being turned into saying something they dont

So are Banks scaremongering or not, you say there is a going to be a large amount of Scottish people who will not bank with them and cannot trust them. Then you say its nothing to worry about as its just moving the registered office?

[CropleyWasGod]

So are Banks scaremongering or not, you say there is a going to be a large amount of Scottish people who will not bank with them and cannot trust them. Then you say its nothing to worry about as its just moving the registered office?

There will be those who read the headlines only, and act accordingly.

There will be the rest of us who read the substance, and act accordingly.

[CFC1892]

i've hesitated to post on this board - my connection to Scotland being my dad and his family - Hi to all the Edinburgh Fyffes out there.

In the early nineties Australia was heading for a republic - all the polls showed that we wanted to ditch the monarchy in favour of a republic.

these were happy days for the Republicans. Then we had a change of government led by a devout monarchist - John Howard

He set the referendum question not "do you want Australia to become a republic?" but which form of republicanism do you prefer against the monarchy.

In this instance he was able to split the vote between the direct electionists and the Queen staying head of state and the Governor General being HOS.

By splitting the opposition Howard was able to claim that the remainder - less than 50% -were the largest cohort - and the republican movement died its death

If you ever want Scotland to be it's own country - now is the best chance because the choice is so clear

If you wait for "next time" there is no way the powers that be will accept a choice as clear as you have now.

They'll muddy it with crap about what form of government etc..They'll provide different options that split the seperatist vote.

If you're happy with the way things are done in your country then for heaven's sake vote no - you have much more right than me on the other side of the world to decide how you live.

If however you're thinking that you may vote yes "next time once things are in order" i'd advise you to vote yes now because there is no way you will be given such a clear cut choice again

Cheers
From Melbourne
Robert Edward Gilchrist Fyffe

[JoeT]

Read your own link properly, it clearly states regardless of the outcome of the referendum, it goes onto further state that it is just the registered office of the company, would not affect operations.. Same as all the other banks, how come so many people are trying to twist these statements into saying something they dont? Do you folk actually read past a headline? These bank and shop statements have all been timed conveniently to provide headlines that are designed to shock people away from a Yes vote, and they are being turned into saying something they dont


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/11/rbs-lloyds-leaving-scotland-would-be-good-news-for-scottish-independence/

[Beefster]

There will be those who read the headlines only, and act accordingly.

There will be the rest of us who read the substance, and act accordingly.

That applies to both viewpoints.

"Oh, we'll be ending poverty and getting rid of the nukes.. "

[Peevemor]

i've hesitated to post on this board - my connection to Scotland being my dad and his family - Hi to all the Edinburgh Fyffes out there.

In the early nineties Australia was heading for a republic - all the polls showed that we wanted to ditch the monarchy in favour of a republic.

these were happy days for the Republicans. Then we had a change of government led by a devout monarchist - John Howard

He set the referendum question not "do you want Australia to become a republic?" but which form of republicanism do you prefer against the monarchy.

In this instance he was able to split the vote between the direct electionists and the Queen staying head of state and the Governor General being HOS.

By splitting the opposition Howard was able to claim that the remainder - less than 50% -were the largest cohort - and the republican movement died its death

If you ever want Scotland to be it's own country - now is the best chance because the choice is so clear

If you wait for "next time" there is no way the powers that be will accept a choice as clear as you have now.

They'll muddy it with crap about what form of government etc..They'll provide different options that split the seperatist vote.

If you're happy with the way things are done in your country then for heaven's sake vote no - you have much more right than me on the other side of the world to decide how you live.

If however you're thinking that you may vote yes "next time once things are in order" i'd advise you to vote yes now because there is no way you will be given such a clear cut choice again

Cheers
From Melbourne
Robert Edward Gilchrist Fyffe

:top marks

[SlickShoes]

This is completely anecdotal but it felt striking.

I was speaking to a colleague at work. Her daughter is in P6 and her school had being doing a lot of stuff around the referendum with them.

My son is in P6 and his school has done likewise.

They go to school in two different local authority areas, and one school is in a village, one in a town.

I know from talking to heads and the like, that they feel a lot of pressure to make sure the classroom discussions are as objective as possible - understandable given that potentially half the parents would be in uproar otherwise.

Anyway, the subject of the referendum has never come up yet domestically with my son - while I don't avoid talking politics to him I'm happier for it to be instigated by him.

As it transpires, both he and my colleague's daughter this week decided to raise it with us. Both were very clear that practically everyone in their class, bar one or two, were in the 'No' camp.

Anecdotal, yes. Many explanations, I'm sure.

But we come back to this question. We know women have been saying no in greater numbers than the average polling. Relatively mature children, being given a very objective picture of the two arguments, albeit on a small sample, seem to be overwhelmingly saying no.

Why is that?

I have a friend that is a teacher in a deprived area of Glasgow and 29 out of her 30 pupils at P7 level said they would vote yes if they had a vote.

I think it's going to depend massively on the school and the area, I am sure kids in the arse end of Glasgow don't feel like there is a government that actually cares about them at all.

[CropleyWasGod]

That applies to both viewpoints.

"Oh, we'll be ending poverty and getting rid of the nukes.. "

I was specifically referring to the banking/supermarket stories, but of course you're right.

[YehButNoBut]

Alex Salmonds letter to David Cameron about project FEAR


https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10014630_718658104837480_2749267355926543765_n.jpg ?oh=5f3c732a379340e601776600b6de9cc5&oe=548FA851&__gda__=1419731928_25b9a8b8ebdd89784c2d0e10dd48249 d

[RyeSloan]

Alex Salmonds letter to David Cameron about project FEAR

Jeez if that's the level we are now at I despair...the second last paragraph is so childish it's laughable.

If you have a serious point put it seriously Alex.

Or am I missing the fact this is some sort of hoax/joke letter?

[JimBHibees]

I think the longer some Yes campaigners whine on about the English, conspiracies, leaks, the BBC, the right-wing press (although that one has surprisingly died down a bit since the rumours of Rupert Murdoch and the Sun supporting Yes began), how the No voters are a disgrace to their nation etc etc etc, the happier the No campaign will be.

We've gone from gloating and metaphorical jigs at the weekend to as hysterical as it's ever been in the space of 4-5 days.

Total nonsense, all that anyone is looking for is a bit of impartiality in reporting. BBC as proven by Nick Robinson's input to the National news was a disgrace. The incessant reporting of the banks announcements again were misrepresented. The press are 36 out of 37 for No. Cameron meeting supermarket owners and suddenly some are indicating costs may rise, it does stink but maybe you are happy with that kind of electioneering in what is for many in this country the most important decision they will ever make.

[One Day Soon]

i've hesitated to post on this board - my connection to Scotland being my dad and his family - Hi to all the Edinburgh Fyffes out there.

In the early nineties Australia was heading for a republic - all the polls showed that we wanted to ditch the monarchy in favour of a republic.

these were happy days for the Republicans. Then we had a change of government led by a devout monarchist - John Howard

He set the referendum question not "do you want Australia to become a republic?" but which form of republicanism do you prefer against the monarchy.

In this instance he was able to split the vote between the direct electionists and the Queen staying head of state and the Governor General being HOS.

By splitting the opposition Howard was able to claim that the remainder - less than 50% -were the largest cohort - and the republican movement died its death

If you ever want Scotland to be it's own country - now is the best chance because the choice is so clear

If you wait for "next time" there is no way the powers that be will accept a choice as clear as you have now.

They'll muddy it with crap about what form of government etc..They'll provide different options that split the seperatist vote.

If you're happy with the way things are done in your country then for heaven's sake vote no - you have much more right than me on the other side of the world to decide how you live.

If however you're thinking that you may vote yes "next time once things are in order" i'd advise you to vote yes now because there is no way you will be given such a clear cut choice again

Cheers
From Melbourne
Robert Edward Gilchrist Fyffe


1. Only a Nat government is ever going to pursue a Referendum and they - moderated by the electoral commission - would set the question. So your point on how it is asked is wrong.

2. It takes a pretty spectacular crystal ball to know whether, when or how often we will do this again. Quebec have had two - one in 1980 and one in 1995. So again, your guess on the future is not supported by history.

[JimBHibees]

Jeez if that's the level we are now at I despair...the second last paragraph is so childish it's laughable.

If you have a serious point put it seriously Alex.

Or am I missing the fact this is some sort of hoax/joke letter?

Dont know what is particularly wrong with the letter if he is proven to be right about the antics of Cameron and Treasury.

[Beefster]

Total nonsense, all that anyone is looking for is a bit of impartiality in reporting. BBC as proven by Nick Robinson's input to the National news was a disgrace. The incessant reporting of the banks announcements again were misrepresented. The press are 36 out of 37 for No. Cameron meeting supermarket owners and suddenly some are indicating costs may rise, it does stink but maybe you are happy with that kind of electioneering in what is for many in this country the most important decision they will ever make.

I haven't been happy with the electioneering from either side for a long time now. I'm not going to piss my pants because both sides are getting a bit meaner with a week to go.

[One Day Soon]

Jeez if that's the level we are now at I despair...the second last paragraph is so childish it's laughable.

If you have a serious point put it seriously Alex.

Or am I missing the fact this is some sort of hoax/joke letter?


It is classic SNP news management. The news is bad for us so don't talk about the news, talk about process related to the news. RBS possible relocation (of whatever sort - major or minor)? Talk about how the news came out, don't talk about the news. Anyway the Cabinet Secretary has dismissed it.

Now, I wonder if Salmond will be demanding an inquiry from his own Cabinet Secretary into the industrial scale arm twisting his team have been doing to discourage business people from speaking publicly about their concerns? Let's start with the Edinburgh regeneration and infrastructure project sector....

It is so childish.

[JimBHibees]

I haven't been happy with the electioneering from either side for a long time now. I'm not going to piss my pants because both sides are getting a bit meaner with a week to go.

I dont know it sounds like you had the incontinence knickers on with your previous post. :greengrin

The main elements that most are concerned about isnt the electioneering as such but organisations such as BBC misrepresenting positions and as the West of Scotland research indicated being one sided.

[RyeSloan]

Dont know what is particularly wrong with the letter if he is proven to be right about the antics of Cameron and Treasury.

Seriously you think that the tone and language is fitting of the first minister of Scotland when communicating to the prime minister of the UK?

'When you were in Scotland telling the people you love them'...playground stuff.

This is a rather serious decision we are being asked to make yet that's the level the main player in the Yes movement is communicating at.

I would hope for better to be honest but sadly this is quickly descending into a spiteful bun fight that is doing the people of Scotland no service whatsoever.

[One Day Soon]

Seriously you think that the tone and language is fitting of the first minister of Scotland when communicating to the prime minister of the UK?

'When you were in Scotland telling the people you love them'...playground stuff.

This is a rather serious decision we are being asked to make yet that's the level the main player in the Yes movement is communicating at.

I would hope for better to be honest but sadly this is quickly descending into a spiteful bun fight that is doing the people of Scotland no service whatsoever.


The division it is causing and the consequences of that are in my view unforgiveable. I acknowledge the irony within that sentence.

[johnbc70]

The letter is a hoax surely?

Did we ever find out the truth about the big debate last night on the BBC and did the BBC force all the yes voters to say there were voting no, or whatever it was. What is the actual truth?

[snooky]

You just made up stuff and blamed it on the English - to be helpful to you, that's counter-productive given there's a helluva lot of English people in Scotland who have a vote :wink:

Agreed, and the ones that I know are voting Yes.
Go figure.

[marinello59]

Total nonsense, all that anyone is looking for is a bit of impartiality in reporting. BBC as proven by Nick Robinson's input to the National news was a disgrace. The incessant reporting of the banks announcements again were misrepresented. The press are 36 out of 37 for No. Cameron meeting supermarket owners and suddenly some are indicating costs may rise, it does stink but maybe you are happy with that kind of electioneering in what is for many in this country the most important decision they will ever make.

I've disagreed enough with you about the perceived bias and influence of the press over the past few months. I still do. :greengrin
But the conduct of the BBC over the past few days is questionable to say the least. It stinks.

[Pretty Boy]

Agreed, and the ones that I know are voting Yes.
Go figure.

My other half is English and has recently switched from NO to Yes.

Not aimed at anyone in particular but attempts to turn this debate, by people on both sides, into a Scotland v England contest have got right up my nose. I genuinely really, really like England, love visiting and have many good friends there.

It doesn't change my view that Scotland being governed from Edinburgh is preferable to the status quo though.

[southsider]

If Salmond cuts coporation tax by 3% will the banks and supermarkets still leave ? Not in the best interest of their shareholders i would suspect.

[marinello59]

]Seriously you think that the tone and language is fitting of the first minister of Scotland when communicating to the prime minister of the UK?
[/B]
'When you were in Scotland telling the people you love them'...playground stuff.

This is a rather serious decision we are being asked to make yet that's the level the main player in the Yes movement is communicating at.

I would hope for better to be honest but sadly this is quickly descending into a spiteful bun fight that is doing the people of Scotland no service whatsoever.

Howe about Cameron communicating to the people of Scotland?
''It's not about giving the effing Tories a kicking.'' Obviously he thinks the level most of us are at.

[johnbc70]

If Salmond cuts coporation tax by 3% will the banks and supermarkets still leave ? Not in the best interest of their shareholders i would suspect.

What if the rest of the UK cut it by 4% to remain competitive, will Salmond cut it by 5%? Where does it stop?

[CropleyWasGod]

What if the rest of the UK cut it by 4% to remain competitive, will Salmond cut it by 5%? Where does it stop?

It will be the Parliament that sets the rate, not necessarily the SNP, so one would hope that sense would prevail.

[johnbc70]

It will be the Parliament that sets the rate, not necessarily the SNP, so one would hope that sense would prevail.

Well the OP used Salmond in the post so was responding to that - but yes it would be the Parliament but still the point stands where does it stop. Salmond has said they will look to cut the tax by 3%, what if immediately as that is passed the rUK cut it by 4% etc

[CropleyWasGod]

Well the OP used Salmond in the post so was responding to that - but yes it would be the Parliament but still the point stands where does it stop. Salmond has said they will look to cut the tax by 3%, what if immediately as that is passed the rUK cut it by 4% etc

I don't favour an immediate 3p cut (which would actually be 15%), for a number of reasons. I think those reservations would surface in the debate post-independence, and might curtail it.

I also don't think that rUK could afford a 4p cut, and would therefore doubt that they would do it.

[Hibs7]

The Treasury has the figures, and has had for the past 35 years. You're welcome to look them up :)

Scotland gets more per head of population than it contributes . Look it up the yes figures do NOT add up !

[Hibs7]

It will be the Parliament that sets the rate, not necessarily the SNP, so one would hope that sense would prevail.

This is a point a lot of people make but .. Independence means the SNP and Alex Salmond. . Not any other party

[snooky]

Jeez if that's the level we are now at I despair...the second last paragraph is so childish it's laughable.

If you have a serious point put it seriously Alex.

Or am I missing the fact this is some sort of hoax/joke letter?

I'm on the other side of the wall from you SM however, I think the paragraph you mention was a distraction from the main point he was making.
IMO, the letter would have been better without it - IF that is the real letter, of course.

[MyJo]

Scotland gets more per head of population than it contributes . Look it up the yes figures do NOT add up !

If that was true why are they so desperate to continue subsidising us?

If we are taking out more than we put in surely letting us go independent would be better for rUK? No

[CropleyWasGod]

Scotland gets more per head of population than it contributes . Look it up the yes figures do NOT add up !

Tell me where to look them up.


This is a point a lot of people make but .. Independence means the SNP and Alex Salmond. . Not any other party


Really? Do you know how Scotland will vote in May 2016?

Do you also not accept what many on here have been saying... that the SNP will likely splinter in an iS.

[MyJo]

This is a point a lot of people make but .. Independence means the SNP and Alex Salmond. . Not any other party

Absolute nonsense, independence means Scotland can vote for whoever they want and have a controlling government that the majority of Scottish people have voted for

[snooky]

Howe about Cameron communicating to the people of Scotland?
''It's not about giving the effing Tories a kicking.'' Obviously he thinks the level most of us are at.

The video of Cameron sneering and laughing derisively with his half of the House a couple of weeks ago still sticks in my gullet.
That was his response to an MP who asked a legitimate question as a representative of his constituents.
You can keep your crocodile tears, Dave.


A reminder ....

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/3175-fury-as-laughing-cameron-brands-scots-stupid

[Leith Green]

www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

Have a wee read of this, see how much of this we hear on the BBC, this is exactly current affairs, not what may or may happen..

This is our chance to stand up and address these issues

[johnbc70]

If that was true why are they so desperate to continue subsidising us?

If we are taking out more than we put in surely letting us go independent would be better for rUK? No

Is it all just about money and subsidies? Maybe the rest of the UK actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK.

[JimBHibees]

My other half is English and has recently switched from NO to Yes.

Not aimed at anyone in particular but attempts to turn this debate, by people on both sides, into a Scotland v England contest have got right up my nose. I genuinely really, really like England, love visiting and have many good friends there.

It doesn't change my view that Scotland being governed from Edinburgh is preferable to the status quo though.

Agree totally have loads of English friends and relatives and spent the summer in England and had a great time in both Cornwall and London. I actually think that independence for Scotland could improve the level of government in England where different areas are treated better they they are now.

[Leith Green]

Is it all just about money and subsidies? Maybe the rest of the UK actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK.

Look above your post, you'll see why.. Its neither wonder they wont let us go

[johnbc70]

www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

Have a wee read of this, see how much of this we hear on the BBC, this is exactly current affairs, not what may or may happen..

This is our chance to stand up and address these issues

There was something on the radio this morning about something on this site being completey made up and has proven to be a lie. Wish I could remember but can't, don't know if anyone heard it as well?

[MyJo]

Is it all just about money and subsidies? Maybe the rest of the UK actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK.

The often quoted figure is that we are subsidised to about £1000 per head is Scotland. If independence was going to save UK taxpayers £5bn a year then they would be falling over themselves trying to get us to vote yes.

If they actually liked us maybe they would stop treating us with borderline contempt for a change.

[Leith Green]

There was something on the radio this morning about something on this site being completey made up and has proven to be a lie. Wish I could remember but can't, don't know if anyone heard it as well?

Haha, quality reply... Taken from the governments national statistics.. So you want to believe what the banks my or may not do, over hard facts from governments own statistics?

This is pretty much in line with what No are all about, so I suppose u would. Complete imbalance in this so called country and sod all being done by then Westminster fat cats to address it, wonder why??

Oh but ur shopping might get dearer at Asda, laughable!

[snooky]

Shockeroony! - The Civil Service deny any wrong doing re. the Treasury 'leak'.
I just can't believe this.
I fully expected a "Hands up. Guilty as charged, Guv".

[JimBHibees]

Is it all just about money and subsidies? Maybe the rest of the UK actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK.

It is about money and power always has been hence the reason we are constantly told the oil is running out as far back as the 70s and marking the McCrone report secret for 30 years. The more things change the more they remain the same.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

[snooky]

Haha, quality reply... Taken from the governments national statistics.. So you want to believe what the banks my or may not do, over hard facts from governments own statistics?

This is pretty much in line with what No are all about, so I suppose u would. Complete imbalance in this so called country and sod all being done by then Westminster fat cats to address it, wonder why??

Oh but ur shopping might get dearer at Asda, laughable!

If a bottle of malt goes up more than ..... eh...... 10p in Asda , I'm voting NO!
Frig freedom.
:rolleyes:

[MyJo]

Quite liked this I found on Facebook:


Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%

But we DO have...

32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production.
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production 60% of the fish landings 30% of the beef herd 20% of the sheep herd 9% of the dairy herd 10% of the pig herd 15% of the cereal holdings 20% of the potato holdings ...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whiskey industry.

We have a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
A 9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion pound whiskey exports industry
3.1 billion pound life sciences industry Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

We have 25% of Europes wave and wind energy potential.

And finally we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population... Whaow Scotland should be rich!

[johnbc70]

Haha, quality reply... Taken from the governments national statistics.. So you want to believe what the banks my or may not do, over hard facts from governments own statistics?

This is pretty much in line with what No are all about, so I suppose u would. Complete imbalance in this so called country and sod all being done by then Westminster fat cats to address it, wonder why??

Oh but ur shopping might get dearer at Asda, laughable!
Actually it was about a claim that Scottish firms pay more than English firms for promoting goods overseas, a claim I believe made on that site. Proven to be incorrect.

[The Harp Awakes]

Seriously you think that the tone and language is fitting of the first minister of Scotland when communicating to the prime minister of the UK?

'When you were in Scotland telling the people you love them'...playground stuff.

This is a rather serious decision we are being asked to make yet that's the level the main player in the Yes movement is communicating at.

I would hope for better to be honest but sadly this is quickly descending into a spiteful bun fight that is doing the people of Scotland no service whatsoever.

Whether you believe the substance of the comments which have been emanating from Westminster Unionist politicians this week, is a matter of conjecture. However, what is clear is that since the YouGuv poll which put yes ahead, there HAS been an orchestrated campaign by the Unionists to present as many negative reasons they can to encourage (I would say scare and intimidate) Scottish people not to vote for independence.

No problem in that you might say, but to accuse Alex Salmond of not acting appropriately when he is drawing attention to the hysterical antics of Westminster politicians and the Treasury this week, which at best are sneaky, and at worst are unlawful is quite simply laughable.

[johnbc70]

It is about money and power always has been hence the reason we are constantly told the oil is running out as far back as the 70s and marking the McCrone report secret for 30 years. The more things change the more they remain the same.

So all these English, Welsh and NI people who I speak to and some of my family who say they want Scotland to stay in the UK because they value us and what we add to the UK are only thinking about the economic elements and nothing else?

[Moulin Yarns]

Asda Price.

Asda promises that you will pay more in Asda, so you may as well do your shopping in Tesco, Lidl, Aldi, Morrison.

The best marketing strategy from an American owned supermarket you will ever see.

[johnbc70]

I am standing in Princes Street and Pishy Breeks Foulkes is 10ft away from me with a big No sign. I have changed my mind! Ha ha.

[Leith Green]

Actually it was about a claim that Scottish firms pay more than English firms for promoting goods overseas, a claim I believe made on that site. Proven to be incorrect.


Yeah, so absolutly nothing to do with the article i pasted.

Anybody on facebook and twitter should post the article on their pages, it is exactly the kind of hard facts people should know when deciding on our countrys future. The article shows graphs backed up by stats from the goverents own national statistics

www.businessforscotland.co.uk...nds-wealth-go/

[snooky]

Is it all just about money and subsidies? Maybe the rest of the UK actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK.

Personally, I don't think the majority of people living in England/Wales/NI really care one way or the other. We're not going anywhere. There'll be no 'borders' (unless you believe Mr Ed, the talking horse). Their everyday life will be more or less unaffected.

One thing that has intrigued me is the lack of noise from the ordinary folk south of the border.

The people who are banging the drums and conducting the onslaughts/love-ins/threatening behaviour/etc. are the politicians, financiers and major business groups.

Och, it's probably because they "actually like us and want us to remain part of the UK"

[johnbc70]

Yeah, so absolutly nothing to do with the article i pasted.

Anybody on facebook and twitter should post the article on their pages, it is exactly the kind of hard facts people should know when deciding on our countrys future. The article shows graphs backed up by stats from the goverents own national statistics

www.businessforscotland.co.uk...nds-wealth-go/

Maybe but you would think they would check there facts before publishing it yea?

[snooky]

I am standing in Princes Street and Pishy Breeks Foulkes is 10ft away from me with a big No sign. I have changed my mind! Ha ha.

:faf:

[WeeRussell]

So all these English, Welsh and NI people who I speak to and some of my family who say they want Scotland to stay in the UK because they value us and what we add to the UK are only thinking about the economic elements and nothing else?

Nah they're probably talking about genuinely liking us as people. It's hardly a reason to stay part of a union though is it?

[Gus]

It is classic SNP news management. The news is bad for us so don't talk about the news, talk about process related to the news. RBS possible relocation (of whatever sort - major or minor)? Talk about how the news came out, don't talk about the news. Anyway the Cabinet Secretary has dismissed it.

Now, I wonder if Salmond will be demanding an inquiry from his own Cabinet Secretary into the industrial scale arm twisting his team have been doing to discourage business people from speaking publicly about their concerns? Let's start with the Edinburgh regeneration and infrastructure project sector....

It is so childish.

:top marks

[Leith Green]

Maybe but you would think they would check there facts before publishing it yea?

The facts are there to be seen plain and simple

[WeeRussell]

:top marks

Both of you just watch the BBC's (Nick Robinson reporting on Nick Robinson) report of Salmond 'not answering' the news then?

Sound.

[snooky]

Just like to say well done to all the Hibsnet posters on the referendum threads.
We seem to be having a fair debate with honest comments from both sides.
I've been on some other sites where it's just a mudslinging contest.

Vive la Difference! :aok:

Please continue ......

[Mr Grieves]

ICM/guardian poll

51% NO - 49% YES (not including don't knows)

Tight

[Hibrandenburg]

Your going to have to find another place to shop. http://www.cityam.com/1410443319/scottish-independence-now-tesco-bank-says-it-will-move-england

Tesco Bank and Tesco Supermarkets all part of Tesco Plc.

:faf: This sums up NO quite nicely, all hype without actually looking at the details.

[Just Alf]

The letter is a hoax surely?

Did we ever find out the truth about the big debate last night on the BBC and did the BBC force all the yes voters to say there were voting no, or whatever it was. What is the actual truth?

:agree: .... I think it has to be, it seems to be made up of sound bites in that youtube clip! feels poorly written and it isn't signed........


Re you're second point, it's really poor but I've seen from a number of separate sources it is indeed the case.... not good.

[DaveF]

There was something on the radio this morning about something on this site being completey made up and has proven to be a lie. Wish I could remember but can't, don't know if anyone heard it as well?

Was it every one of your posts? :greengrin

[snooky]

Was it every one of your posts? :greengrin

Mock The Week comes to Hibsnet :greengrin

[Leith Green]

ICM/guardian poll

51% NO - 49% YES (not including don't knows)

Tight

**** me this is tight, wonder wether the newly registered voters could sway this to Yes..

[stoneyburn hibs]

The oil is going to dry up eventually, making it harder to service the massive debt.

That's one of the reasons I'm voting Yes.

[JoeT]

Paraphrased from a contributor on the Forbes site
One of the problems that a newly independent Scotland would face is that it would be a grossly financialised society. The news that both RBS and Lloyds would move their headquarters out of Scotland and into England in the event of a vote for independence is thus good news for the independence movement, not bad as it is generally being portrayed.
The moves would entirely solve the basic problem that an independent Scotland couldn’t handle on its own.
The basic problem is that a bank needs to have a central bank behind it. Well, one that indulges in fractional reserve banking (as all of them do) does need a central bank. The basic structure of banking is that the bank doesn’t have the depositors’ money in the basement. It’s all out in loans (with a small reserve) to people in their mortgages and so on.
But a newly independent Scotland wouldn’t have a central bank. It also wouldn’t have its own currency: they’re expecting to continue to use the pound sterling which is run by the Bank of England. This means that if there was a run on a Scottish bank the Scottish government potentially wouldn’t have the ability to bail them out. Because it wouldn’t control the printing presses to be able to create the necessary money.
And this is a serious problem: when we add up the liabilities of those Scotland based banks we quite rapidly get to 1,200 % of Scottish GDP. That’s just not a debt that Scotland could support. Even though the possibility of it being required is small that impossibility means that no one would quite trust a bank under such a monetary regime. And thus RBS and Lloyds have announced that if it should come to independence then they’ll move before the markets force them to.
This is generally being taken as being bad news for the independence movement. But it’s not, not really. While the head office might move, that is pretty much all that will move: with one rather large exception. There will still be the same number of people working in the banks in Scotland, more or and so the effect in that sense on the Scottish economy will be minimal. What does move to London along with the board and the CEO is that potential liability of 1,200 % of GDP. And that of course is a good thing for the independence argument.
For before this announcement it was possible to say that Scotland couldn’t be independent because it just couldn’t afford to backstop its banks, not if it retained the pound. Now that problem is solved, the potential liability will be upon London not Edinburgh and the Scots are off and (ahem) scot free. These announcements solve one of the major economic problems with Scots independence: they’re thus good news for the independence argument, not bad.

[ekhibee]

Apologies for anybody who has seen this already.

http://youtu.be/5EMLOTsimSs

[Leith Green]

Sorry, can i just correct myself... This poll looks like it has taken new electorate into account..

17per cent undecided.... Really?

[#FromTheCapital]

Sorry, can i just correct myself... This poll looks like it has taken new electorate into account..

17per cent undecided.... Really?

Find that hard to believe at this stage.

[RyeSloan]

Sorry, can i just correct myself... This poll looks like it has taken new electorate into account.. 17per cent undecided.... Really?

Which is why these polls probably mean less and less now...17pc undecided would seem improbable.

[The_Exile]

The BBC are showing their true colours without any ****s being given, they are truly desperate and are using any scare story they can dream up, it's actually uncomfortable to watch such obvious bias. Some of the kids at the big debate last night were asked if they could say that they were no or undecided as there were too many yes voters and they wanted to balance it out. That's disgusting behaviour from our "impartial" media.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Which is why these polls probably mean less and less now...17pc undecided would seem improbable.

It depends on the method of polling.Some polls pre select on line participants hence they have low don't knows because the people taking part are engaged completely on the process.

This ICM poll was a phone poll rather than on-line hence people don't have the same time to make a decision on the range of questions they are being asked as it is far more detailed than Yes or No.

ICM are regarded as highly accurate in the polling world and given the gravity of the decision as to whether to form a proper Independent country or just stick then 17% don't knows is quite heartening.

[johnbc70]

The BBC are showing their true colours without any ****s being given, they are truly desperate and are using any scare story they can dream up, it's actually uncomfortable to watch such obvious bias. Some of the kids at the big debate last night were asked if they could say that they were no or undecided as there were too many yes voters and they wanted to balance it out. That's disgusting behaviour from our "impartial" media.

If true then I agree that is awful, but can you refer me to where that is the case? I genuinely want to know but cannot find anything to back it up.

[Leith Green]

Which is why these polls probably mean less and less now...17pc undecided would seem improbable.



Yip, my take is that it gives the pollsters room for manoeuvre when the real results are in..

[The Baldmans Comb]

If true then I agree that is awful, but can you refer me to where that is the case? I genuinely want to know but cannot find anything to back it up.

It was all over Twitter last night from some parents complaining.

Nick Robinson the BBC political guy deliberately caught lying on u tube is far far worse though.

[steakbake]

**** me this is tight, wonder wether the newly registered voters could sway this to Yes..

If YES can get those voters out on Thursday, they'll take it over the line.

[Leith Green]

If YES can get those voters out on Thursday, they'll take it over the line.

Wonder what sort of percentage the newly registered voters works for Yes and No ... Any idea?

[bawheid]

If YES can get those voters out on Thursday, they'll take it over the line.

I happen to think Yes are well in the lead and that's why we're seeing the panic from the establishment going into overdrive. The polls are being manipulated to keep it looking close because 'No' need every undecided vote they can get.

Remember Peevemor posted about the last poll before devolution showing a roughly 65:35 yes:no split. Ended up 75% yes.

A lot can happen in the next 6 days but I'm confident.

[allmodcons]

He was invited on to the debate by the BBC - in writing - following various discussions between BBC and Better Together. Parallel talks on format and speakers were taking place between BBC and Yes Scotland.

Hours later he was 'disinvited', which of course had nothing to do with the SNP twisting the arms of BBC Scotland to try and make sure that an effective performer was nobbled. Basically as soon as they heard that BT wanted to field Galloway rather than Murphy they panicked.

He and Better Together then made clear that they would be turning up with him the next day anyway as one of their speakers so the BBC could like it or lump it. All this erupted on to the news and social media last night when Galloway went public with what the BBC had done. This morning the BBC had a lot of complaints over them trying to dictate who Better Together could choose as their speakers. When the volume of complaints got to a certain point they caved and accepted Galloway.

When Yes heard this they responded by saying that Sturgeon now wouldn't do it - whether that was because she was crapping it over Galloway or for some other reason isn't clear. Some time later it was announced that Sturgeon would do it after all.

Not your finest moment on the board ODS. The suggestion that Nicola Sturgeon was "crapping it" over facing Galloway is in itself laughable but, having witnessed his performance, I think it more likely she was pissing herself laughing.

[JimBHibees]

Whether you believe the substance of the comments which have been emanating from Westminster Unionist politicians this week, is a matter of conjecture. However, what is clear is that since the YouGuv poll which put yes ahead, there HAS been an orchestrated campaign by the Unionists to present as many negative reasons they can to encourage (I would say scare and intimidate) Scottish people not to vote for independence.

No problem in that you might say, but to accuse Alex Salmond of not acting appropriately when he is drawing attention to the hysterical antics of Westminster politicians and the Treasury this week, which at best are sneaky, and at worst are unlawful is quite simply laughable.

Completely agree the scaremongering now that Westminster is involved is absolutely shocking. The establishment closing ranks and showing its teeth.

[snooky]

Completely agree the scaremongering now that Westminster is involved is absolutely shocking. The establishment closing ranks and showing its teeth.

It bothers me that if it is close and NO wins we there will be a major backlash due to the imbalance reporting and scaremongering.
Right now it wouldn't surprise me to see Jeb Bush as the Returning Officer, y'awl.

[CropleyWasGod]

It bothers me that if it is close and NO wins we there will be a major backlash due to the imbalance reporting and scaremongering.
Right now it wouldn't surprise me to see Jeb Bush as the Returning Officer, y'awl.

:greengrin

Pinched and shared. May yer chads hang low.....

[SteveHFC]

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2014/post-35247-14105300276821.jpg

[Leith Green]

I think Yes have saw out what has been a long and draining week pretty well, the establishment have lined up banks, shops, westminster MPS, all orchestrated imo.. Looks as if the gains made have held, hopefully the masses of working class voters and new electorate give Yes victory. Iam quite confident now..

[Bristolhibby]

Wonder what sort of percentage the newly registered voters works for Yes and No ... Any idea?

2:1 Yes, I heard.

However my theory is if you have never been arsed to vote, are you going to register to vote to preserve a system you do not bother taking part in?

IMHO new voters (excluding 16-18) will be a higher yes to no percentage.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I think Yes have saw out what has been a long and draining week pretty well, the establishment have lined up banks, shops, westminster MPS, all orchestrated imo.. Looks as if the gains made have held, hopefully the masses of working class voters and new electorate give Yes victory. Iam quite confident now..

This, if there were a slump, then I would be disheartened, but to pretty much hold neck and neck after that vile onslaught from career politicians big business and the media establishment.

"BRING IT!" I say.

J

[Leith Green]

2:1 Yes, I heard.

However my theory is if you have never been arsed to vote, are you going to register to vote to preserve a system you do not bother taking part in?

IMHO new voters (excluding 16-18) will be a higher yes to no percentage.

J


If that is indeed the case, then i really really think Yes are looking strong..

[Leith Green]

If that is indeed the case, then i really really think Yes are looking strong..

I also think next week is going to be more about passion, rather than folk being lined up to scaremonger, That suits Yes more as that where all the passion and positivity comes from

[Hibs7]

The true colours of the Yes fanatics comes out ... Jim Sillars says after a yes victory the banks and BP will find out what power is .. He wants to nationalise BP .. This is what you are letting run your country idiots beyond belief .. And as for who will govern an independent. Scotland .. Who won the last election for the Scottish parliament ... SNP by a large margin and I expect they will win again .. Turkey's voting Yes for Christmas !!

[Hibs7]

The oil is going to dry up eventually, making it harder to service the massive debt.

That's one of the reasons I'm voting Yes.

That does not make sense. !

[CropleyWasGod]

The true colours of the Yes fanatics comes out ... Jim Sillars says after a yes victory the banks and BP will find out what power is .. He wants to nationalise BP .. This is what you are letting run your country idiots beyond belief .. And as for who will govern an independent. Scotland .. Who won the last election for the Scottish parliament ... SNP by a large margin and I expect they will win again .. Turkey's voting Yes for Christmas !!

Everyone knows that that result was, in part, due to protest votes against the Labour and Tory Westminster parties. It's very unlikely to be repeated.

As for Jim Sillars. Tell me... where in Government does he work?

[Hibs7]

Shockeroony! - The Civil Service deny any wrong doing re. the Treasury 'leak'.
I just can't believe this.
I fully expected a "Hands up. Guilty as charged, Guv".

Typical yes supporter don't believe anything that shows the yes mob as being wrong, but believe every thing the liar Salmond says ... Gullible to the extreme !!

[Hibs7]

Everyone knows that that result was, in part, due to protest votes against the Labour and Tory Westminster parties. It's very unlikely to be repeated.

As for Jim Sillars. Tell me... where in Government does he work?

Your opinion which you are entitled to, but I reckon the SNP will
Get in again if they get independence, I have seen 4 years of failure from them already . As for Sillars he is jowly Ecks buddy typical of who are pushing independence .. Not one of their statements for an independent Scotland stand up to scrutiny but they won't answer any direct questions on finance, pensions etc .. Surely that should ring alarm bells !!

[green&left]

The BBC are showing their true colours without any ****s being given, they are truly desperate and are using any scare story they can dream up, it's actually uncomfortable to watch such obvious bias. Some of the kids at the big debate last night were asked if they could say that they were no or undecided as there were too many yes voters and they wanted to balance it out. That's disgusting behaviour from our "impartial" media.

Be sure to get this signed and passed round. 30,000 signatures since Nick Robinson's unbiased and fairly piece this morning...

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

[CropleyWasGod]

Your opinion which you are entitled to, but I reckon the SNP will
Get in again if they get independence, I have seen 4 years of failure from them already . As for Sillars he is jowly Ecks buddy typical of who are pushing independence .. Not one of their statements for an independent Scotland stand up to scrutiny but they won't answer any direct questions on finance, pensions etc .. Surely that should ring alarm bells !!

The same Jim Sillars who described the SNP currency plans as “stupidity on stilts”. :greengrin

[Leith Green]

Typical yes supporter don't believe anything that shows the yes mob as being wrong, but believe every thing the liar Salmond says ... Gullible to the extreme !!

Explain what Salmond is lying about?

[Just Alf]

That does not make sense. !

<response deleted> :wink:

[Mikey09]

Your opinion which you are entitled to, but I reckon the SNP will
Get in again if they get independence, I have seen 4 years of failure from them already . As for Sillars he is jowly Ecks buddy typical of who are pushing independence .. Not one of their statements for an independent Scotland stand up to scrutiny but they won't answer any direct questions on finance, pensions etc .. Surely that should ring alarm bells !!


4 years of failure!!! Aye that's a good one!! After the devestation the Tories have caused in my country?? It's time to rid ourselves not from our English friends but from governments the majority of scots don't and never want.... Optimists v pessimists... Hope v fear.... Course there will be hard and testing times, but hard and testing times WE can do something about with absolute power and control with a government WE voted for. :thumbsup:

[snooky]

Typical yes supporter don't believe anything that shows the yes mob as being wrong, but believe every thing the liar Salmond says ... Gullible to the extreme !!

Eh, just for the record...
I was suggesting (tongue-in-cheek) that their response was utterly predictable whether the accusation was true or false. :cb

[Hibs7]

Eh, just for the record...
I was suggesting (tongue-in-cheek) that their response was utterly predictable whether the accusation was true or false. :cb

Fair enough ;/)

[CropleyWasGod]

Today's scare story, from Andy Nicol....

Nicol also suggested a Yes vote could mean a change to the British and Irish Lions as he claimed the future of the test side was one of the “many unknowns” of the SNP’s plans for independence.

Geography not his strong point, obviously.

:rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

It was all over Twitter last night from some parents complaining..

Because some parents of Yes voters posted it on Facebook or Twitter is not really the evidence I was looking for. Anything a bit more concrete? Or will we just let this one be conveniently forgotton about.

[snooky]

Today's scare story, from Andy Nicol....

Nicol also suggested a Yes vote could mean a change to the British and Irish Lions as he claimed the future of the test side was one of the “many unknowns” of the SNP’s plans for independence.

Geography not his strong point, obviously.

:rolleyes:

OMG! Where's my rubber? :panic:

[Hibs7]

4 years of failure!!! Aye that's a good one!! After the devestation the Tories have caused in my country?? It's time to rid ourselves not from our English friends but from governments the majority of scots don't and never want.... Optimists v pessimists... Hope v fear.... Course there will be hard and testing times, but hard and testing times WE can do something about with absolute power and control with a government WE voted for. :thumbsup:

And you trust Salmond !!! Deary me .. One perfect example of their mismanagement .. New forth bridge tolls were built at a cost of £10m
Then when the SNP won they were destroyed at a cost of £3m ... Lost revenue by removing tolls in excess of £100m .. And before you rant about the tolls being unfair we are now all paying for the tolls whether we use it or not !
What could we have done with in excess of £120m
Upgrade the A9, finance the NHS for more nurses or equipment, removing the tolls has also encouraged people to use the car rather than the park and ride . . Yeah great move from Salmond and his SNP cronies. .

[johnbc70]

So does the Yes camp welcome the comments from Sillar's? A man who shared a platform with Salmond only a few days ago and an ex SNP deputy leader. Do you agree with him?

[CropleyWasGod]

So does the Yes camp welcome the comments from Sillar's? A man who shared a platform with Salmond only a few days ago and an ex SNP deputy leader. Do you agree with him?

I don't. I would rather we stuck with the advice that has been given.

Sillars is entitled to his view, of course he is. But not everyone has to agree on every detail. He has been outvoted on this one.

[CropleyWasGod]

And you trust Salmond !!! Deary me .. One perfect example of their mismanagement .. New forth bridge tolls were built at a cost of £10m
Then when the SNP won they were destroyed at a cost of £3m ... Lost revenue by removing tolls in excess of £100m .. And before you rant about the tolls being unfair we are now all paying for the tolls whether we use it or not !
What could we have done with in excess of £120m
Upgrade the A9, finance the NHS for more nurses or equipment, removing the tolls has also encouraged people to use the car rather than the park and ride . . Yeah great move from Salmond and his SNP cronies. .

What would the cost of that revenue be?

[Hibs7]

What would the cost of that revenue be?

The cost of the forth bridge crossing before the SNP scrapped it £1 per car for both ways

[Mikey09]

And you trust Salmond !!! Deary me .. One perfect example of their mismanagement .. New forth bridge tolls were built at a cost of £10m
Then when the SNP won they were destroyed at a cost of £3m ... Lost revenue by removing tolls in excess of £100m .. And before you rant about the tolls being unfair we are now all paying for the tolls whether we use it or not !
What could we have done with in excess of £120m
Upgrade the A9, finance the NHS for more nurses or equipment, removing the tolls has also encouraged people to use the car rather than the park and ride . . Yeah great move from Salmond and his SNP cronies. .


Yep.... Far more than those fannies from Westminster!! :na na:

[Hibs7]

Am I correct in thinking you are not a Fife resident, H7? :greengrin

Doesn't make any difference.. People live in Fife because the houses, council tax, etc are cheaper than Edinburgh, so they should pay for their commute. There is always the train or the park and rides, for your info I used to live in Kinross and my family were on the Edinburgh side of the bridge!!

[CropleyWasGod]

The cost of the forth bridge crossing before the SNP scrapped it £1 per car for both ways

You misunderstand me. What would it cost (staff costs, overheads etc) to generate that revenue of £100m, and how many years is that spread over?

[Hibs7]

Yep.... Far more than those fannies from Westminster!! :na na:

Yeah another great debate from a yes supporter . You are all showing your colours now ..

[Hibs7]

You misunderstand me. What would it cost (staff costs, overheads etc) to generate that revenue of £100m, and how many years is that spread over?

Sorry. No more staff than now because it was automatic tolls , so no real overheads above what it is for free crossing, those figures are for the last 4 years and they don't include the additional cost for trucks etc.

[ekhibee]

If true then I agree that is awful, but can you refer me to where that is the case? I genuinely want to know but cannot find anything to back it up.
I posted this earlier, hopefully it should answer your question regarding evidence.

http://youtu.be/5EMLOTsimSs

[Hibrandenburg]

Typical yes supporter don't believe anything that shows the yes mob as being wrong, but believe every thing the liar Salmond says ... Gullible to the extreme !!

Ok, I'll ask. What exactly has Salmond lied about?

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry. No more staff than now because it was automatic tolls , so no real overheads above what it is for free crossing, those figures are for the last 4 years and they don't include the additional cost for trucks etc.

No more staff?

So no-one to collect the cash? Or to count it? Or to bank it? Or to account for it?

From the SG's consultation document in 2006:-

The recurring revenue expenditurefor 2006/07 for the Forth Bridge stands at £5.4m and the projected income from tolls at £13.4m.

Whatever one thinks about the rights and wrongs of tolls, your £100m over 4 years seems way off.

[Hibs7]

Ok, I'll ask. What exactly has Salmond lied about?

The financial viability of an independent Scotland .. It is all ifs and buts with no solid foundation.. La, la, land

[Hibs7]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4165219]No more staff?

So no-one to collect the cash? Or to count it? Or to bank it? Or to account for it?

From the SG's consultation document in 2006:-

The recurring revenue expenditurefor 2006/07 for the Forth Bridge stands at £5.4m and the projected income from tolls at £13.4m.

Whatever one thinks about the rights and wrongs of tolls, your £100m over 4 years seems way off.[/QUOTE

The staff who are there now could and would do those jobs, but if additional staff were required they would be minimal. Recent figures state 20m plus vehicles a month cross the bridge and have done over the last 4 years. Your figures are way out of date !!

[Hibrandenburg]

The financial viability of an independent Scotland .. It is all ifs and buts with no solid foundation.. La, la, land

It's his opinion and many others including financial experts agree with him. Bit different to being a liar.

[CropleyWasGod]

The financial viability of an independent Scotland .. It is all ifs and buts with no solid foundation.. La, la, land

There is plenty foundation, if you actually go and look for it.

Try looking at the Treasury records going back to 1979, which is when I started getting interested in the implications. That's not spin, that's not politicians making spurious claims to back up their agenda, that's actual solid national records.

That's what people do, or should do. They ignore the bluster, the grandstanding, and look for the evidence.

It's not possible to obtain all the evidence, of course, but with a bit of grey-matter one can make an informed judgement on what is actually out there.

The question then becomes "Can Scotland be a financially viable independent country?" Once it has been established that it "can" ( and there are those on the No side who have acknowledged that it can), the question becomes "should".

That, of course, is a different question, which is what you seem to be answering. You have your own views on that, to which you are entitled, but do not confuse that with the "can?" question.

[Hibs7]

It's his opinion and many others including financial experts agree with him. Bit different to being a liar.

And just as many disagree and provide figures to confirm
It .. Salmond goes for all the figures that fit his agenda without any facts to justify them . I would rather believe the boss of BP than AS on oil reserves. !!

[Just Alf]

There is plenty foundation, if you actually go and look for it.

Try looking at the Treasury records going back to 1979, which is when I started getting interested in the implications. That's not spin, that's not politicians making spurious claims to back up their agenda, that's actual solid national records.

That's what people do, or should do. They ignore the bluster, the grandstanding, and look for the evidence.

It's not possible to obtain all the evidence, of course, but with a bit of grey-matter one can make an informed judgement on what is actually out there.

The question then becomes "Can Scotland be a financially viable independent country?" Once it has been established that it "can" ( and there are those on the No side who have acknowledged that it can), the question becomes "should".

That, of course, is a different question, which is what you seem to be answering. You have your own views on that, to which you are entitled, but do not confuse that with the "can?" question.

bit in bold

agreed, even David Cameron has stated that "of course Scotland could be successful as an independent country"...... he just thinks a Scotland within the UK would be.... er..... successfuller.....

[Hibs7]

There is plenty foundation, if you actually go and look for it.

Try looking at the Treasury records going back to 1979, which is when I started getting interested in the implications. That's not spin, that's not politicians making spurious claims to back up their agenda, that's actual solid national records.

That's what people do, or should do. They ignore the bluster, the grandstanding, and look for the evidence.

It's not possible to obtain all the evidence, of course, but with a bit of grey-matter one can make an informed judgement on what is actually out there.

The question then becomes "Can Scotland be a financially viable independent country?" Once it has been established that it "can" ( and there are those on the No side who have acknowledged that it can), the question becomes "should".

That, of course, is a different question, which is what you seem to be answering. You have your own views on that, to which you are entitled, but do not confuse that with the "can?" question.


Fair enough bit what do the figures look like now, Scotland now has a higher percentage of Pensioners and a smaller manufacturing industry the balance of what we make and what we pay out has changed . . Not to our benefit !

[Stranraer]

And just as many disagree and provide figures to confirm
It .. Salmond goes for all the figures that fit his agenda without any facts to justify them . I would rather believe the boss of BP than AS on oil reserves. !!

You choose to believe what you want to - that's fine, but regarding your xenophobic post on a previous thread regarding "foreign beggars" it's YOU who have shown your true colours.

[Hibs7]

You choose to believe what you want to - that's fine, but regarding your xenophobic post on a previous thread regarding "foreign beggars" it's YOU who have shown your true colours.

Try walking along Princes st mate . Then deny it !

[Hibrandenburg]

And just as many disagree and provide figures to confirm
It .. Salmond goes for all the figures that fit his agenda without any facts to justify them . I would rather believe the boss of BP than AS on oil reserves. !!

Still doesn't make him a liar.

[Hibs7]

Still doesn't make him a liar.

If you believe that then there is no hope ! Using data you cannot confirm to gain or influence decisions is in my book a lie.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you believe that then there is no hope !


Convince me! Point out his lies.

[Pretty Boy]

The true colours of the Yes fanatics comes out ... Jim Sillars says after a yes victory the banks and BP will find out what power is .. He wants to nationalise BP .. This is what you are letting run your country idiots beyond belief .. And as for who will govern an independent. Scotland .. Who won the last election for the Scottish parliament ... SNP by a large margin and I expect they will win again .. Turkey's voting Yes for Christmas !!

I've never voted SNP in my life, I don't even consider myself a nationalist but I'm voting yes. I don't see that changing in an iScotland.

The SNP aren't my party but they are at this time a means to an end.

[johnbc70]

I posted this earlier, hopefully it should answer your question regarding evidence.

http://youtu.be/5EMLOTsimSs

Just had a quick look but I was referring to the claim the BBC had asked Yes voters to be No voters at last night debate. Unless I watch the whole video and it makes reference to it?

[Hibs7]

I've never voted SNP in my life, I don't even consider myself a nationalist but I'm voting yes. I don't see that changing in an iScotland.

The SNP aren't my party but they are at this time a means to an end.

Oh it will be an end ... To life as you know it .. But not for the better !!

[Hibrandenburg]

If you believe that then there is no hope ! Using data you cannot confirm to gain or influence decisions is in my book a lie.

Then your book is wrong, forming an opinion based on the information at hand (see CWG's earlier post) is not lying.