Scottish Independence

[Andy Bee]

For anyone interested.... Award winning documentary "Finding the Money" with Prof Stephanie Kelton a prominent US economist, supporter of MMT and probably the leading expert on it. Also the author of "The Deficit Myth" a USA best seller.

https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money

Scotonomics will be doing a twitter feed at 8pm with some economics experts along with the film showing answering questions etc at #FindingTheMoneyUK.

So basically rent the film for £2.99, start the film at 8pm and join #FindingTheMoneyUK on Twitter by 8pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JpZZcD8C4M

[Stairway 2 7]

Alex Salmond has died whatever your views he was determined on Scottish independence

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/462157020_8567159153340840_8520830264842407438_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=bd9a62&_nc_ohc=PMl_YmDkMUEQ7kNvgEErhHr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&_nc_gid=AZYMWDug67GJwGOO2Q3N8uU&oh=00_AYCjHKswvrigMj-aR5_cELXNEqCYBPNJ2mWyNH1rO4qOJg&oe=671069F8


jeezo :( 69

[Bristolhibby]

Wow! 69 is no age.

What ever your views he was a Colossus in Politics.

RIP

J

[Billy Whizz]

Alex Salmond has died whatever your views he was determined on Scottish independence

That’s so sad to hear

[Ozyhibby]

Alex Salmond has died whatever your views he was determined on Scottish independence

RIP. Massive figure in Scottish Politics.


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[grunt]

Shocked. Sorry to hear this.

[Scottie]

Alex Salmond has died whatever your views he was determined on Scottish independence
So so sad to hear no matter what your political persuasion is. RIP Mr Salmond you dared to dream.

[overdrive]

Sad to hear this. By no means a supporter of his politics or independence but he was one of the best politicians of his generation IMO.

[Moulin Yarns]

No words. He might have been a divisive figure lately but nobody can deny the influence he had on Scottish politics.

[Pretty Boy]

I wish Salmond had stayed on after the referendum, he had the mandate to do so imo.

For all it was a broad church he was the driver of the campaign, a campaign that came close to doubling support from start to end. Divisive certainly but concise and clear on what he stood for. What has followed has been a stagnation and I don't think that would have been the case with him.

He wasn't without his personal failings, many he admitted to, but as a politician he was formidable.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Devastated to hear this. Another giant of the independence movement that hasn't lived to see Scotland become an independent nation. Remarkable achievements as a politician taking SNP into power for first time, winning a historic majority, securing the referendum and taking us so close to winning. Rip

[J-C]

Wasn't everyone's cup of tea but was such a force in Scotland at the time, just a pity things turned out they way they did for him, politics wise. Sad to here of his loss and was one of the main reasons I voted SNP back in the day, thoughts are with his family.

[Stairway 2 7]

He'll not get his vindication against Liz Lloyd or Sturgeon, will any court case against them/scot gov collapse without him, I assume so?

[JimBHibees]

I wish Salmond had stayed on after the referendum, he had the mandate to do so imo.

For all it was a broad church he was the driver of the campaign, a campaign that came close to doubling support from start to end. Divisive certainly but concise and clear on what he stood for. What has followed has been a stagnation and I don't think that would have been the case with him.

He wasn't without his personal failings, many he admitted to, but as a politician he was formidable.

Agree

[Pretty Boy]

I think Salmond's most significant decision was backing devolution in 1997. That would have been unthinkable a generation before with a mantra of 'independence or nothing' and a lifetime on the fringes preferable to any compromise.

He saw the sense in using Holyrood to prove Scotland could be governed competently from within and for many years he succeeded in doing that. He threw the weight of the SNP behind devolution and in turn that got believers in independence onside even if the end result (at the time) was short of what they really wanted. It's the kind of bold political move that seems so lacking now; everyone seems to want to prescribe to a consensus. Had he urged a boycott of that referendum then there is every chance devolution would have been dead for another quarter of a century.

I never particularly liked the man but I voted for him a fair few times. He wasn't someone constantly 'clarifying' or backtracking. He said what he thought and if people didn't like it then tough. It's all too rare in front bench politicians nowadays and it was something I respected even if I didn't always agree.

[Andy Bee]

I think Salmond's most significant decision was backing devolution in 1997. That would have been unthinkable a generation before with a mantra of 'independence or nothing' and a lifetime on the fringes preferable to any compromise.

He saw the sense in using Holyrood to prove Scotland could be governed competently from within and for many years he succeeded in doing that. He threw the weight of the SNP behind devolution and in turn that got believers in independence onside even if the end result (at the time) was short of what they really wanted. It's the kind of bold political move that seems so lacking now; everyone seems to want to prescribe to a consensus. Had he urged a boycott of that referendum then there is every chance devolution would have been dead for another quarter of a century.

I never particularly liked the man but I voted for him a fair few times. He wasn't someone constantly 'clarifying' or backtracking. He said what he thought and if people didn't like it then tough. It's all too rare in front bench politicians nowadays and it was something I respected even if I didn't always agree.


Salmond at his most formidable in the Great Debate between Devolution or Independence with George Robertson in 1995. It's uncanny in the sense of how many questions are still pertinent today, I had to chuckle when one member of the audience asks Robertson, who's supporting Devo, "aren't you taking on the responsibility and also taking on the blame, in the sense that you'll get the blame with everything that goes wrong without having any real power from that Parliament because at the moment that comes from Westminster and you wont get a say in how much money you get to spend?". There's very few politicians now sadly if any that have the political skills Salmond had. It's a sad day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-2A47U5PQ&t=2s

[grunt]

SNP not given seat on Westminster's Scottish Affairs Committee

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24684795.snp-not-given-seat-westminsters-scottish-affairs-committee/

[Hibs4185]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=_adtJmihbYAfsHIh&v=3_X2H_IjnzY&feature=youtu.be

Found this very good.

It’s a new Scotland channel on YouTube.

I’m not a history buff so can’t comment on it but I found it interesting

[Andy Bee]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=_adtJmihbYAfsHIh&v=3_X2H_IjnzY&feature=youtu.be

Found this very good.

It’s a new Scotland channel on YouTube.

I’m not a history buff so can’t comment on it but I found it interesting

There's a number of good youtube channels out there now and they're growing.

Freedom for Scotland, various info films and a weekly show created by Indy car Gordon Ross https://www.youtube.com/@indy-biker-stevie

Freedom for Scotland......When oil came to town, a really interesting documentary by BBC Alba on Aberdeen when oil was discovered up to the current day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0slIlkw-E

Independence Live...A group of channels including Scotonomics where William Thomson and Kieran Vandervene interview guests on economic policies and basically finances from a Scottish perspective usually through an MMT lense every Monday. The TNT Show where John Drummond of ex BBC fame interviews guests in their chosen fields, guests have included people like Stephen Flynn and Joanna Cherry https://www.youtube.com/@IndependenceLive

The two Davies, A daily show where Davy McGuiness gives his opinion on the days headlines and sometimes does an afternoon show with his mate on Scottish current affairs, sometimes not factually correct but you can't dismiss the guys passion. I find his rants hilarious. https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDavies

Through a Scottish Prism, Roddy hosts a usual panel of Eva Comrie, Phil Bosswell ex SNP, local Hibby and ex SNP Lloyd Quinan every Sunday. I'm not so sure of their views on Ukraine but its informative and there's also some quality rants. https://www.youtube.com/@ThroughAScottishPrism

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP not given seat on Westminster's Scottish Affairs Committee

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24684795.snp-not-given-seat-westminsters-scottish-affairs-committee/

Do you think that the Northern Ireland committee reflects the political make up of it's constituents?

No, because the committee is reflective of Westminster, the same is true for Scotland. Win more seats is the solution.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think that the Northern Ireland committee reflects the political make up of it's constituents?

No, because the committee is reflective of Westminster, the same is true for Scotland. Win more seats is the solution.

Did the SNP get 0%?[emoji2369]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Did the SNP get 0%?[emoji2369]


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No, 1.38% which isn't going to guarantee any seats on committees. Did you know who chaired the committee in the last Parliament?

I get the Sunday National but it's lost one of the best young investigative journalists in Adam Robertson.

[Ozyhibby]

No, 1.38% which isn't going to guarantee any seats on committees. Did you know who chaired the committee in the last Parliament?

I get the Sunday National but it's lost one of the best young investigative journalists in Adam Robertson.

1.38% of Scottish MP’s?


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[Moulin Yarns]

1.38% of Scottish MP’s?


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We are talking about Westminster, go figure.

I'm for independence as much as you, but the structure of Westminster committees is clearly based on MP numbers.

SNP get 14% of one seat at the committee

[Andy Bee]

We are talking about Westminster, go figure.

I'm for independence as much as you, but the structure of Westminster committees is clearly based on MP numbers.

SNP get 14% of one seat at the committee

Labour only had one seat last term with LD two and SNP three with Pete Wishart chairing so it can't simply be down to elected numbers?

I see Stephen Flynn has accepted a chair.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour only had one seat last term with LD two and SNP three with Pete Wishart chairing so it can't simply be down to elected numbers?

I see Stephen Flynn has accepted a chair.

Labour had 202 seats at Westminster in 2019. What don't you understand about Westminster committees? It's totally about elected members. With 1.38% of seats the SNP are not entitled to a seat at the table.

Edit: front bench members are excluded from committee, and all 9 SNP mps are on the front bench.

[Andy Bee]

Labour had 202 seats at Westminster in 2019. What don't you understand about Westminster committees? It's totally about elected members. With 1.38% of seats the SNP are not entitled to a seat at the table.

A wee bit condescending there naw? If you're going down that route you'd better be really sure of the facts my old ma used to say. Labour had 202 seats as you stated yet only had one seat on the committee, LDs had two and SNP had three including the chair so it's "totally" not about elected numbers.

[grunt]

With 1.38% of seats the SNP are not entitled to a seat at the table.
The committee is the Scottish Affairs Committee. Defend it all you like, refer to the rules of Parliament if you must, but it's plainly wrong that the party of the elected Government of Scotland does not have a single seat on this Westminster committee.

[Stairway 2 7]

The committee is the Scottish Affairs Committee. Defend it all you like, refer to the rules of Parliament if you must, but it's plainly wrong that the party of the elected Government of Scotland does not have a single seat on this Westminster committee.

Seems that they have changed the rules to allow the SNP 1 seat even though all their MPs are front bench. All quite grown up for Westminster.

[Andy Bee]

I don't know why there's all this whoo haaa anyway, big Jack Rankin, Tory MP for Windsor will surely battle for the Scottish peoples rights on this committee?

[Andy Bee]

Apparently it's all a big mix up and Labour left a vacant position after seeing SNP had no seats which correlates with the vacant position left on the UK Gov website listings. This would suggest Hoyle left the SNP out which is weird considering Plaid have two seats on the Welsh committee. Stephen Flynn is taking the seat.

[Hibs4185]

There's a number of good youtube channels out there now and they're growing.

Freedom for Scotland, various info films and a weekly show created by Indy car Gordon Ross https://www.youtube.com/@indy-biker-stevie

Freedom for Scotland......When oil came to town, a really interesting documentary by BBC Alba on Aberdeen when oil was discovered up to the current day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0slIlkw-E

Independence Live...A group of channels including Scotonomics where William Thomson and Kieran Vandervene interview guests on economic policies and basically finances from a Scottish perspective usually through an MMT lense every Monday. The TNT Show where John Drummond of ex BBC fame interviews guests in their chosen fields, guests have included people like Stephen Flynn and Joanna Cherry https://www.youtube.com/@IndependenceLive

The two Davies, A daily show where Davy McGuiness gives his opinion on the days headlines and sometimes does an afternoon show with his mate on Scottish current affairs, sometimes not factually correct but you can't dismiss the guys passion. I find his rants hilarious. https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDavies

Through a Scottish Prism, Roddy hosts a usual panel of Eva Comrie, Phil Bosswell ex SNP, local Hibby and ex SNP Lloyd Quinan every Sunday. I'm not so sure of their views on Ukraine but its informative and there's also some quality rants. https://www.youtube.com/@ThroughAScottishPrism

Thanks for the recommendations. Watched a couple this afternoon.

I was an already passionate independence supporter but I’m getting even more so the older I get

[grunt]

We've been talking (I've been talking) about newspapers (The Times) making up poll results for a headline

This is today's Herald, another once-respected newspaper now reduced to an anti-Scottish mouthpiece for its overseas owners.

The report shows a 37% figure for the poll question about trust in the Scottish Government. This gets rounded up to 40% (two-fifths) for the body of the article, and then magically becomes two-thirds (67%) for the headline. I'm sure when eventually called out on it they'll claim it was a typo. By then of course, the headline will have been read by loads of people who will believe it to be true.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbnJSG7XYAAJ5y0?format=jpg&name=medium

[lapsedhibee]

We've been talking (I've been talking) about newspapers (The Times) making up poll results for a headline

This is today's Herald, another once-respected newspaper now reduced to an anti-Scottish mouthpiece for its overseas owners.

The report shows a 37% figure for the poll question about trust in the Scottish Government. This gets rounded up to 40% (two-fifths) for the body of the article, and then magically becomes two-thirds (67%) for the headline. I'm sure when eventually called out on it they'll claim it was a typo. By then of course, the headline will have been read by loads of people who will believe it to be true.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbnJSG7XYAAJ5y0?format=jpg&name=medium

Haven't read the article so don't know whether that's a typo or something else, but the headline also appears to have truncated the picture's caption to distort its meaning.
"I don't trust the Scottish Government to be able to deliver sunlit uplands outside the EU" would be a very different thing to "I don't trust the Scottish Government".

[Moulin Yarns]

We've been talking (I've been talking) about newspapers (The Times) making up poll results for a headline

This is today's Herald, another once-respected newspaper now reduced to an anti-Scottish mouthpiece for its overseas owners.

The report shows a 37% figure for the poll question about trust in the Scottish Government. This gets rounded up to 40% (two-fifths) for the body of the article, and then magically becomes two-thirds (67%) for the headline. I'm sure when eventually called out on it they'll claim it was a typo. By then of course, the headline will have been read by loads of people who will believe it to be true.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbnJSG7XYAAJ5y0?format=jpg&name=medium

Headline change



More than one in three Scots no longer trust Scottish Government



AND THE SURVEY IS DATED MAY 2024!!!!



On the political front, this year’s polling found widespread distrust in the UK’s political systems and institutions. *

The survey work – conducted in May 2024, at the point that John Swinney was appointed First Minister - found that almost three quarters (77%) of people in Scotland feel that they cannot influence decisions that affect the UK, while about three fifths (63%) disagree that they can influence decisions affecting Scotland.**
*
Three fifths (60%) of the Scottish public in 2024 have low levels of trust in the UK Government, according to the research, while two fifths (37%) have low levels of trust in the Scottish Government and about a third (31%) have low levels of trust in local authorities.*

Professor John Curtice,*Professor of Practice*Politics*at the University of Strathclyde, said: “Across the UK levels of trust and confidence in how we are governed are as low as they have ever been.* *

“And although those at Holyrood come out better than those at Westminster, there are still questions to be asked about how successful the devolution project has been in helping to improve people’s sense of involvement in their political process. *

“Our politicians not only have to address the many policy challenges that face the country, but also persuade voters that they have its best interests at heart.”*

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done all (3) BMA Scotland on X: "�� CONSULTANTS IN SCOTLAND have voted overwhelmingly in favour of the pay offer achieved in negotiations with the Scot Gov. 95.8% voted to accept, with a turnout of 70.9%. Read all the details of the offer and next steps from @alanjrobertson. ������ https://t.co/cV7gOQD7eq" / X (https://x.com/BMAScotland/status/1853768456698568820)


somewhere sarwar and baillie will be gutted

[jacomo]

Haven't read the article so don't know whether that's a typo or something else, but the headline also appears to have truncated the picture's caption to distort its meaning.
"I don't trust the Scottish Government to be able to deliver sunlit uplands outside the EU" would be a very different thing to "I don't trust the Scottish Government".


Very fair point.

[Andy Bee]

Really interesting discussion on Revive, the upcoming conference (Sunday 10th) on land reform in Scotland with Robin McAlpine, Lesley Riddoch and hosted by John Drummond. Also talks on the Trump election and SNPs lack of awareness when it comes to UK Government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXoER_TZBzM

[Hibs90]

I’ve noticed when watching YouTube and stuff on Instagram I keep getting a ton of ads for Scottish Labour, well I say ads - propaganda with misinformation disguised as ads.

This is a trick those for independence are missing. They should be all over this, firstly calling out these bull****, misleading advertisements and secondly, they should be all over the social media platforms promoting facts on independence.

Perhaps it’s a budget thing, but it’s absolutely missing and will have an impact on the next generations views.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’ve noticed when watching YouTube and stuff on Instagram I keep getting a ton of ads for Scottish Labour, well I say ads - propaganda with misinformation disguised as ads.

This is a trick those for independence are missing. They should be all over this, firstly calling out these bull****, misleading advertisements and secondly, they should be all over the social media platforms promoting facts on independence.

Perhaps it’s a budget thing, but it’s absolutely missing and will have an impact on the next generations views.

It's a 100% a budget thing, Internet ads are just the new TV adds and leaflets through the letterbox, it all costs money. SNP membership numbers plummeted off a cliff two years ago they also lost alot of money from going down to 9 MPs and donations have dried up, they will be outgunned going into 2026.

I'd like to know the dodgy channels reform are getting money as their online presence is huge for a small party

[jamie_1875]

I’ve noticed when watching YouTube and stuff on Instagram I keep getting a ton of ads for Scottish Labour, well I say ads - propaganda with misinformation disguised as ads.

This is a trick those for independence are missing. They should be all over this, firstly calling out these bull****, misleading advertisements and secondly, they should be all over the social media platforms promoting facts on independence.

Perhaps it’s a budget thing, but it’s absolutely missing and will have an impact on the next generations views.

Didn't the SNP set up a "rebuttal" unit a few times? I remember it was announced with a bit of fanfare not that long ago? Has it rebutted anything?

What kind of misinformation is Labour spreading, any examples?

[Ozyhibby]

It's a 100% a budget thing, Internet ads are just the new TV adds and leaflets through the letterbox, it all costs money. SNP membership numbers plummeted off a cliff two years ago they also lost alot of money from going down to 9 MPs and donations have dried up, they will be outgunned going into 2026.

I'd like to know the dodgy channels reform are getting money as their online presence is huge for a small party

They also don’t have big corporate donors like Labour do.


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[Hibs90]

It's a 100% a budget thing, Internet ads are just the new TV adds and leaflets through the letterbox, it all costs money. SNP membership numbers plummeted off a cliff two years ago they also lost alot of money from going down to 9 MPs and donations have dried up, they will be outgunned going into 2026.

I'd like to know the dodgy channels reform are getting money as their online presence is huge for a small party

There's a few degrees of separation thing with Reform and let's just say, other countries but I'm sure you know who I mean. Bots, troll farms, influencers, straight up grifters etc make up a huge number of the online presence - a tactic that Trump has used successfully over the years and now he has Musk on side..

[Hibs90]

Didn't the SNP set up a "rebuttal" unit a few times? I remember it was announced with a bit of fanfare not that long ago? Has it rebutted anything?

What kind of misinformation is Labour spreading, any examples?

I meant disinformation apologies - which of course is a different thing. It was too early this morning :greengrin

In terms of specific examples, not something that I've taken notes on but I'll be sure next time one of their ads is forced upon me that I'll take notes.

I'm not talking about the SNP specifically here so I'm not sure why you have raised that point.

[DaveF]

I'm not talking about the SNP specifically here so I'm not sure why you have raised that point.

It's a default mode. Anyone critical of his beloved Labour and he kicks into 'aye but what about the SNP' 😃

[jamie_1875]

I meant disinformation apologies - which of course is a different thing. It was too early this morning :greengrin

In terms of specific examples, not something that I've taken notes on but I'll be sure next time one of their ads is forced upon me that I'll take notes.

I'm not talking about the SNP specifically here so I'm not sure why you have raised that point.

I just thought a so called rebuttal unit was exactly the type of thing you were wanting? Fighting disinformation and getting facts out.

[jamie_1875]

It's a default mode. Anyone critical of his beloved Labour and he kicks into 'aye but what about the SNP' 😃

Not sure there was a need for that dig, but isn't this a positive thing the SNP have done if you support Independence?

[Stairway 2 7]

There's a few degrees of separation thing with Reform and let's just say, other countries but I'm sure you know who I mean. Bots, troll farms, influencers, straight up grifters etc make up a huge number of the online presence - a tactic that Trump has used successfully over the years and now he has Musk on side..

I've not actually directly thought about that but your spot on. Thousands of bots online supporting reform wing go into any declared budget but it must be worth millions in real terms.

[Hibs4185]

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Musk, Putin and Farage etc are all supportive of one another and their propoganda reaches far more people than it represents.

Unfortunately social media is an echo chamber and particularly x is a breeding ground for these types of views.

I can’t believe Farage’s partner in crime is talking about being the kingmaker at the next scottish election.

Reform must be stealing conservative votes. It’ll be a sad day when a number of reform politicians take their seats in Holyrood.

I only hope it make all independence supporters wake up, put their differences aside and vote in the best interests of independence

[Andy Bee]

I'm not so sure Reform are only taking votes from the torys but it will be the main party they hurt the most. Pretty interesting discussion on Holyrood Sources channel with Scottish Reform Campaign Director Martin Green. He comes across pretty normal but certainly doesn't have anything I'm interested in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg-NATIBFok

[Hibs4185]

I'm not so sure Reform are only taking votes from the torys but it will be the main party they hurt the most. Pretty interesting discussion on Holyrood Sources channel with Scottish Reform Campaign Director Martin Green. He comes across pretty normal but certainly doesn't have anything I'm interested in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg-NATIBFok

UKIP, BNP, whatever the far right have supported, have never really had a foothold in Scotland.

Immigration isn’t as big a topic up here as down south so it really surprises me that Reform are gaining traction. Suppose that the downside of a PR system in Holyrood

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

could be our only way of avoiding being swallowed up by English fascism.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

With a massively aging population how do we go about almost doubling the pension. The IFS says even if the pension stays as is we will need to find an extra £45 billion per year to fund it, just due to aging population. We need hundreds of billions per year to achieve this.

The comparison against other countries doesn't work either. Germany France ect you get money taken each month from your wages depending on how much you earn. Maybe we should do similar and have less reliance on private pensions. I pay into a private pension as I doubt there will be a state pension when I retire

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

.... so that they could make more promises that they don't intend to keep? :cb

[Ozyhibby]

With a massively aging population how do we go about almost doubling the pension. The IFS says even if the pension stays as is we will need to find an extra £45 billion per year to fund it, just due to aging population. We need hundreds of billions per year to achieve this.

The comparison against other countries doesn't work either. Germany France ect you get money taken each month from your wages depending on how much you earn. Maybe we should do similar and have less reliance on private pensions. I pay into a private pension as I doubt there will be a state pension when I retire

The way politics is going it doesn’t matter about delivery. Just need to say it like Farage, Johnson and Starmer. Once the vote is won it doesn’t matter what happens.


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[jamie_1875]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

Why not say the pension will be £500 a week and get it higher than 66%?

It's a great poll for headlines but ultimately it's meaningles without some details on how it would be achieved etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

could be our only way of avoiding being swallowed up by English fascism.

Said that back in 2014, the writing was on the wall. It's too late now, the rest UK couldn't survive without Scotland and they would do ALL in their power to stop independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

With a massively aging population how do we go about almost doubling the pension. The IFS says even if the pension stays as is we will need to find an extra £45 billion per year to fund it, just due to aging population. We need hundreds of billions per year to achieve this.

The comparison against other countries doesn't work either. Germany France ect you get money taken each month from your wages depending on how much you earn. Maybe we should do similar and have less reliance on private pensions. I pay into a private pension as I doubt there will be a state pension when I retire

Never going to happen, in Germany employers mirror the tax payments of their employees, can you imagine that in the UK, a country where companies are scared of adding cost from introducing recycling schemes? Greed rules.

[Ozyhibby]

Why not say the pension will be £500 a week and get it higher than 66%?

It's a great poll for headlines but ultimately it's meaningles without some details on how it would be achieved etc.

It’s time for some economic populism.[emoji106]


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[jamie_1875]

It’s time for some economic populism.[emoji106]


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Doesn't that just demote us to the level of Farage and the Brexiteers? Not for me, I think the people of Scotland are too clever for that and would see through it.

[RyeSloan]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/wellbeing_economy_points_to_66_supermajority_for_s cottish_independence


Now,if only the politicians were to pay attention.

I’m pretty sure a ‘wellbeing economy’ was an SNP thing under Sturgeon years ago, she even gave a TED talk on the subject before it slowly slipped off the agenda.

It’s a grand idea until you realise that all things need money and the best way to have the money for it is a successful and growing economy!

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't that just demote us to the level of Farage and the Brexiteers? Not for me, I think the people of Scotland are too clever for that and would see through it.

We didn’t see through Starmer. Swallowed that hook line and sinker.


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[jamie_1875]

We didn’t see through Starmer. Swallowed that hook line and sinker.


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I think the vote in Scotland was largely down to wanting the Tories out and some dissatisfaction with the SNP, not the people of Scotland saying how wonderful they thought Starmer is. So I don't think the people of Scotland are feeling "duped" as much as many may wish to suggest.

The many by elections since July in Scotland would also suggest this.

[Andy Bee]

I’m pretty sure a ‘wellbeing economy’ was an SNP thing under Sturgeon years ago, she even gave a TED talk on the subject before it slowly slipped off the agenda.

It’s a grand idea until you realise that all things need money and the best way to have the money for it is a successful and growing economy!

I agree and that's just not happening when in a union with the rest of the UK. Probably better to try and replicate our Nordic neighbours as their demographics are far more similar to us.

[Hibrandenburg]

Doesn't that just demote us to the level of Farage and the Brexiteers? Not for me, I think the people of Scotland are too clever for that and would see through it.

Doesn't matter if the people of Scotland see through anything, if the rest UK don't then we get lumbered with it anyway.

[jamie_1875]

Doesn't matter if the people of Scotland see through anything, if the rest UK don't then we get lumbered with it anyway.

In the context of an Independence referendum that won't come into it, nobody outside Scotland would be voting in it.

[Andy Bee]

I think the vote in Scotland was largely down to wanting the Tories out and some dissatisfaction with the SNP, not the people of Scotland saying how wonderful they thought Starmer is. So I don't think the people of Scotland are feeling "duped" as much as many may wish to suggest.

The many by elections since July in Scotland would also suggest this.

The vote in Scotland was down to nearly a million voters, many SNP or Indy supporters not coming out to vote. That's happening in local Government elections also, 12% turnout in one of the latest.

[Andy Bee]

A pretty relaxed interview by the Holyrood Sources team with John Swinney and Kate Forbes, some very interesting points on energy and Independence. A bit of a watch at around 1hr20min in length but a nice change from the utter bollox going on in Westminster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfoPx6sCDoI

[JimBHibees]

I think the vote in Scotland was largely down to wanting the Tories out and some dissatisfaction with the SNP, not the people of Scotland saying how wonderful they thought Starmer is. So I don't think the people of Scotland are feeling "duped" as much as many may wish to suggest.

The many by elections since July in Scotland would also suggest this.

I wouldn’t rule out the influence of the media in terms of voting intentions particularly traditional news outlets and the national broadcaster

[Andy Bee]

Another podcast by Holyrood sources discussing the very latest polling with Prof John Curtice. If the election was tomorrow then this is absolutely mind boggling. Reform could take as much as 15 seats with the SNP up at 53, Labour back down to their 2021 election results with little change to Greens and LDs. Basically the only realistic way for SNP to form a Government would be in a partnership with the LDs. This highlights the need for more Scottish only parties with Westminster parties failing in Scotland because of the link to the Westminster head office.

Personally I think the SNP really need to push and start getting a wee bit more radical, wake the non voting Indy supporters up again, another unionist party into the mix divides the unionist vote share further and opens up the opportunity of another Independence party to take advantage of the regional vote if the SNP can get onboard. SNP 1 and 2 will see Reform hoovering up list seats. If done correctly, the SNP is polling well and a coordinated plan is in place for which party to vote for in the list then there's an opportunity to have an Independence supporting Government and opposition but more importantly both parties with interests in Scotland only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89emEYD7lak

[Hibs4185]

Another podcast by Holyrood sources discussing the very latest polling with Prof John Curtice. If the election was tomorrow then this is absolutely mind boggling. Reform could take as much as 15 seats with the SNP up at 53, Labour back down to their 2021 election results with little change to Greens and LDs. Basically the only realistic way for SNP to form a Government would be in a partnership with the LDs. This highlights the need for more Scottish only parties with Westminster parties failing in Scotland because of the link to the Westminster head office.

Personally I think the SNP really need to push and start getting a wee bit more radical, wake the non voting Indy supporters up again, another unionist party into the mix divides the unionist vote share further and opens up the opportunity of another Independence party to take advantage of the regional vote if the SNP can get onboard. SNP 1 and 2 will see Reform hoovering up list seats. If done correctly, the SNP is polling well and a coordinated plan is in place for which party to vote for in the list then there's an opportunity to have an Independence supporting Government and opposition but more importantly both parties with interests in Scotland only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89emEYD7lak

Here here

[wookie70]

Another podcast by Holyrood sources discussing the very latest polling with Prof John Curtice. If the election was tomorrow then this is absolutely mind boggling. Reform could take as much as 15 seats with the SNP up at 53, Labour back down to their 2021 election results with little change to Greens and LDs. Basically the only realistic way for SNP to form a Government would be in a partnership with the LDs. This highlights the need for more Scottish only parties with Westminster parties failing in Scotland because of the link to the Westminster head office.

Personally I think the SNP really need to push and start getting a wee bit more radical, wake the non voting Indy supporters up again, another unionist party into the mix divides the unionist vote share further and opens up the opportunity of another Independence party to take advantage of the regional vote if the SNP can get onboard. SNP 1 and 2 will see Reform hoovering up list seats. If done correctly, the SNP is polling well and a coordinated plan is in place for which party to vote for in the list then there's an opportunity to have an Independence supporting Government and opposition but more importantly both parties with interests in Scotland only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89emEYD7lak

I'd rather have a second Independence Party that could collect second votes and end up with and Indi government. That second party would need a clean slate and someone known and without any negative baggage as leader and most importantly have Independence as their number one priority, not being in power. The SNP would then have a choice of a minority government or asking voters to go with 2nd Indi Party to get an Indi Government or pal up with a Unionist Party.

Basically a party like the SNP used to be would do absolutely fine. I voted SNP last time through gritted teeth and given the alternative will do so again. They will never get a second vote though while they are likely to get a large number of seats. The best chance of Indi to me is having a majority Government in favour of Indi and with one Party making sure that is at the forefront of everything that is done by said government. I wouldn't even mind if there was a right leaning Indi Party, some might argue they are in Government to add more dimension and choice for potential Indi voters. At some point there has to be another stand on Indi and that will only happen with a strong Iny majority in Holyrood. That won't be just the SNP imo

[Andy Bee]

I'd rather have a second Independence Party that could collect second votes and end up with and Indi government. That second party would need a clean slate and someone known and without any negative baggage as leader and most importantly have Independence as their number one priority, not being in power. The SNP would then have a choice of a minority government or asking voters to go with 2nd Indi Party to get an Indi Government or pal up with a Unionist Party.

Basically a party like the SNP used to be would do absolutely fine. I voted SNP last time through gritted teeth and given the alternative will do so again. They will never get a second vote though while they are likely to get a large number of seats. The best chance of Indi to me is having a majority Government in favour of Indi and with one Party making sure that is at the forefront of everything that is done by said government. I wouldn't even mind if there was a right leaning Indi Party, some might argue they are in Government to add more dimension and choice for potential Indi voters. At some point there has to be another stand on Indi and that will only happen with a strong Iny majority in Holyrood. That won't be just the SNP imo

Yup, pretty much what I've written above. The latest Survation poll from 7/1/25 - 13/1/25 has SNP with 57 seats with only 1 seat won on the list vote. If that was accurate and the election was tomorrow then if every single SNP voter voted for Indy Party 2 then they could take 30+ seats if coordinated correctly and only 1 Indy Party 2 agreed to stand in each area.

https://ballotbox.scot/survation-january-2025/

[wookie70]

Yup, pretty much what I've written above. The latest Survation poll from 7/1/25 - 13/1/25 has SNP with 57 seats with only 1 seat won on the list vote. If that was accurate and the election was tomorrow then if every single SNP voter voted for Indy Party 2 then they could take 30+ seats if coordinated correctly and only 1 Indy Party 2 agreed to stand in each area.

https://ballotbox.scot/survation-january-2025/

The SNP chose power over Indi the last time and ended up having to share it anyways. That was a massive mistake and a completely selfish act against Indi. It may well have cost us a chance of a second referendum at a time the country was descending into chaos, albeit Covid would have maybe been a big impediment.

I would want something completely separate from the SNP as a second party but that may well be what you were saying with SNP 1 and 2

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP chose power over Indi the last time and ended up having to share it anyways. That was a massive mistake and a completely selfish act against Indi. It may well have cost us a chance of a second referendum at a time the country was descending into chaos, albeit Covid would have maybe been a big impediment.

I would want something completely separate from the SNP as a second party but that may well be what you were saying with SNP 1 and 2

How did they choose power over Indy?


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[Stairway 2 7]

There definitely has to be a second independence party for second votes. I saw a poll that said around 50% of green voters want independence. It's understandable its a huge issue and that should be there focus. We need a fully focused independence party pushing for independence with every breath, SNP obviously can't do that as they have been the party in power for over a decade so need to talk on all things

I'd want the party to be pretty centre ground and not have anyone leading it who was divisive, Salmond was an insane choice to lead Alba at the time. I also wouldn't want them to go in on any culture wars pish. Focusing on culture wars lost 5 years of independence push imo.

I'd also like a Labour for independence party. I know a number of people that simply would never not vote for a red rosette, even though some would like independence. It would hopefully split even a section of the Labour vote.

People say anyone is free to start a party but it's more than an uphill battle to start a party. I'd want lots of support from the SNP, sharing stages and compliments at rallies etc.

Independence needs a restart

[Ozyhibby]

There definitely has to be a second independence party for second votes. I saw a poll that said around 50% of green voters want independence. It's understandable its a huge issue and that should be there focus. We need a fully focused independence party pushing for independence with every breath, SNP obviously can't do that as they have been the party in power for over a decade so need to talk on all things

I'd want the party to be pretty centre ground and not have anyone leading it who was divisive, Salmond was an insane choice to lead Alba at the time. I also wouldn't want them to go in on any culture wars pish. Focusing on culture wars lost 5 years of independence push imo.

I'd also like a Labour for independence party. I know a number of people that simply would never not vote for a red rosette, even though some would like independence. It would hopefully split even a section of the Labour vote.

People say anyone is free to start a party but it's more than an uphill battle to start a party. I'd want lots of support from the SNP, sharing stages and compliments at rallies etc.

Independence needs a restart

We have a form of PR in the Scottish Parliament that broadly works. Another party just so we can game the system just doesn’t sit right with me. We need to build support for independence, not game the system so we can gain power in Holyrood.
The unionists have lots of parties and all it does is split their vote. If anything, only having the SNP has been a strength.
If another party grows organically then fair enough but creating another the same is pointless.


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[Hibs4185]

There definitely has to be a second independence party for second votes. I saw a poll that said around 50% of green voters want independence. It's understandable its a huge issue and that should be there focus. We need a fully focused independence party pushing for independence with every breath, SNP obviously can't do that as they have been the party in power for over a decade so need to talk on all things

I'd want the party to be pretty centre ground and not have anyone leading it who was divisive, Salmond was an insane choice to lead Alba at the time. I also wouldn't want them to go in on any culture wars pish. Focusing on culture wars lost 5 years of independence push imo.

I'd also like a Labour for independence party. I know a number of people that simply would never not vote for a red rosette, even though some would like independence. It would hopefully split even a section of the Labour vote.

People say anyone is free to start a party but it's more than an uphill battle to start a party. I'd want lots of support from the SNP, sharing stages and compliments at rallies etc.

Independence needs a restart

I think the greens have only done so well recently because if their support of independence.

I commented on a post on twitter from an ex SNP MSP basically saying the independence movement needs to come together and leave enquiries etc until after the 2026 election. I said that having enquiries into Salmond etc now was counter productive and played into unionist hands.

The vitriol is received suggesting I was an undercover unionist was unbelievable for that reason I don’t think it can be Alba who are the second party because staunch SNP supporters won’t vote Alba and vice versa.

They’re shooting them selves and independence in the foot with their own personal grievances.

I suppose in the end that’s what’s always held Scotland back since Robert the Bruce etc. No one can unite everyone together and seize the opportunity, too much infighting.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the greens have only done so well recently because if their support of independence.

I commented on a post on twitter from an ex SNP MSP basically saying the independence movement needs to come together and leave enquiries etc until after the 2026 election. I said that having enquiries into Salmond etc now was counter productive and played into unionist hands.

The vitriol is received suggesting I was an undercover unionist was unbelievable for that reason I don’t think it can be Alba who are the second party because staunch SNP supporters won’t vote Alba and vice versa.

They’re shooting them selves and independence in the foot with their own personal grievances.

I suppose in the end that’s what’s always held Scotland back since Robert the Bruce etc. No one can unite everyone together and seize the opportunity, too much infighting.

There is unity in the independence camp. The SNP dominate. The greens have come round to support Indy and that’s fine. Outside of that there is very little. Alba are tiny and only going to get smaller without Salmond.
The Indy movement is unified behind the SNP.
We only get Indy when we persuade the majority of Scots we need it. We are close but we are not there yet.


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[Andy Bee]

We have a form of PR in the Scottish Parliament that broadly works. Another party just so we can game the system just doesn’t sit right with me. We need to build support for independence, not game the system so we can gain power in Holyrood.
The unionists have lots of parties and all it does is split their vote. If anything, only having the SNP has been a strength.
If another party grows organically then fair enough but creating another the same is pointless.


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The system has been gamed since its inception, Tory voting Labour and vice versa so why not use it to our advantage? The poll above shows SNP with 31% in the list and gaining 1 seat out of it, that's crazy wasting all those votes. I think a Labour voter voting Tory is more gaming the system than an Indy supporter voting for 2 Indy parties ever is. As it stands we have no second Indy supporting party that can stand only on the list country wide. A coalition with The Greens has failed and would bring back the men can grow a cervix type arguments, Alba are basically toxic to many SNP voters but may be able to win in some areas. ISP I think are abstentionists although I'm not sure if that's the case in Scottish elections, Indy for Indy have some really good candidates in Sally Hughes and Eva Comrie but they're small at the moment and I'm not sure how the Socialist parties are doing. I'm not sure how it could be achieved but all these parties need to get round the table and coordinate a plan on where they're going to put up candidates. This election could see us with a party controlled by Keir Starmer another controlled by Kemi Badenoch and the icing on the cake, double digit seats controlled by Nigel Farage, that's the reality here.

[Ozyhibby]

The system has been gamed since its inception, Tory voting Labour and vice versa so why not use it to our advantage? The poll above shows SNP with 31% in the list and gaining 1 seat out of it, that's crazy wasting all those votes. I think a Labour voter voting Tory is more gaming the system than an Indy supporter voting for 2 Indy parties ever is. As it stands we have no second Indy supporting party that can stand only on the list country wide. A coalition with The Greens has failed and would bring back the men can grow a cervix type arguments, Alba are basically toxic to many SNP voters but may be able to win in some areas. ISP I think are abstentionists although I'm not sure if that's the case in Scottish elections, Indy for Indy have some really good candidates in Sally Hughes and Eva Comrie but they're small at the moment and I'm not sure how the Socialist parties are doing. I'm not sure how it could be achieved but all these parties need to get round the table and coordinate a plan on where they're going to put up candidates. This election could see us with a party controlled by Keir Starmer another controlled by Kemi Badenoch and the icing on the cake, double digit seats controlled by Nigel Farage, that's the reality here.

I haven’t seen any evidence Alba can win anywhere?


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[Andy Bee]

I haven’t seen any evidence Alba can win anywhere?


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Nor can I but I thought I'd be all inclusive, you've got to remember that a lot of SNP voters vote but hold their nose because of the bigger stakes of Independence the same could happen with Alba if the electorate was on board.

[Ozyhibby]

Nor can I but I thought I'd be all inclusive, you've got to remember that a lot of SNP voters vote but hold their nose because of the bigger stakes of Independence the same could happen with Alba if the electorate was on board.

Alba might have had half a chance if they weren’t primarily an anti SNP party. The spent way move time criticising the SNP than the ever did the union or unionist parties. I can’t remember them ever not going after the SNP.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Alba might have had half a chance if they weren’t primarily an anti SNP party. The spent way move time criticising the SNP than the ever did the union or unionist parties. I can’t remember them ever not going after the SNP.


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I think the far left are similar with labour they generally attack labour much more than the tories or Reform. Then again it's the Trots and Communists pagering each other again.

[Stairway 2 7]

The system has been gamed since its inception, Tory voting Labour and vice versa so why not use it to our advantage? The poll above shows SNP with 31% in the list and gaining 1 seat out of it, that's crazy wasting all those votes. I think a Labour voter voting Tory is more gaming the system than an Indy supporter voting for 2 Indy parties ever is. As it stands we have no second Indy supporting party that can stand only on the list country wide. A coalition with The Greens has failed and would bring back the men can grow a cervix type arguments, Alba are basically toxic to many SNP voters but may be able to win in some areas. ISP I think are abstentionists although I'm not sure if that's the case in Scottish elections, Indy for Indy have some really good candidates in Sally Hughes and Eva Comrie but they're small at the moment and I'm not sure how the Socialist parties are doing. I'm not sure how it could be achieved but all these parties need to get round the table and coordinate a plan on where they're going to put up candidates. This election could see us with a party controlled by Keir Starmer another controlled by Kemi Badenoch and the icing on the cake, double digit seats controlled by Nigel Farage, that's the reality here.

I agree I don't think it's dirty but just sensible. I'm not cheating anybody by voting SNP 1 and an independence party 2

[Ozyhibby]

I agree I don't think it's dirty but just sensible. I'm not cheating anybody by voting SNP 1 and an independence party 2

Which is fine but it’s not really for the SNP to create another party. That really would be gaming the system.
A 2nd Indy party would dilute the Indy vote at constituency level.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Which is fine but it’s not really for the SNP to create another party. That really would be gaming the system.
A 2nd Indy party would dilute the Indy vote at constituency level.


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I don't think anyone mentioned SNP creating a party as that would clearly be wrong but you can easily help things along. There's loads of SNP staffers that have podcasts articles in papers or X accounts like MSM monitor, they could give time to a party that clearly said we won't your second vote but we want independence so we believe SNP is the best first vote

[Andy Bee]

Which is fine but it’s not really for the SNP to create another party. That really would be gaming the system.
A 2nd Indy party would dilute the Indy vote at constituency level.


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Coordinated correctly it could also benefit the SNP. 54% support Independence but 35% are voting SNP. Every Indy supporter could vote SNP in the constituency and Indy Party 2 in the list. Only 1 Indy 2 party stands in each area with Independence Only on the ballot. If stuck to how many seats does that get you, 90?

[Hibs4185]

Sort a lot of points to respond too.

As above, there needs to be someone who can pull all the supporters together and establish a strategy as above. SNP vote 1 and A N Other vote 2.

As I said above, I don’t think Alba can be the second party. There is too much animosity between the two. I wish there wasn’t but judging by the strong sentiment I’ve seen online, I don’t think there could be an electoral pact between the two.

I also don’t think everyone is united behind the SNP. They dropped a lot of support with the transgender thing. I personally will always vote SNP although I don’t agree with all their policies.

A lot of poeole think that if they vote for independence they’ll be stuck with the SNP forever. Part of the SNP’s messaging needs to be that they are only a vessel in which to gain independence. After independence you can vote for any party which aligns with your values, whether that be a new Scottish Labour, Tories etc.

I’d go as far to say that in an independent Scotland, the SNP should be disbanded as they’ve achieved their mission statement and a new party formed.

I actually wondered whether Moira Salmomd
Might be the best person to knock a few heads together and unite all independence supporters around one strategy. I thought Alex Salmond might do that but it looks like it’s hardened some peoples views instead.

[Smartie]

Mhairi Black made some interesting points on the interview she did with Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell on The Rest is Politics.

I've voted SNP every time I have voted but there is something about "nationalism" that makes me uncomfortable. I don't view myself an anything bordering on being a nationalist. I'd just like there to be a tweaking of where political decisions are made in relation to my life between Edinburgh, London and Europe. Nationalism is ghastly and part of my favouring of independence is an outright rejection of British nationalism and all that goes with it.

For a while I've thought the SNP need to rebrand because the whole concept of "Scottish Nationalism" is toxic to the people they are looking to win over in order to deliver Scottish independence.

But maybe what is actually needed is another pro independence party, one that doesn't immediately come with the reputation as being a home for the headbangers who don't fit within the SNP ie Alba?

It'll remove stuff like the potential clout that the SNP can have at Westminster but surely wanting that is the opposite to what independence parties should be wanting anyway?

[GlesgaeHibby]

There is unity in the independence camp. The SNP dominate. The greens have come round to support Indy and that’s fine. Outside of that there is very little. Alba are tiny and only going to get smaller without Salmond.
The Indy movement is unified behind the SNP.
We only get Indy when we persuade the majority of Scots we need it. We are close but we are not there yet.


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That just isn't true. Support for SNP is hovering around 30-35% mark just now, and support for independence is hovering around the 50% mark. There a plenty within the independence movement absolutely scunnered with the SNP, myself included. They need to get a move on and seize the initiative here, using the very real threat of Prime Minister Farage in 2029 to drive support.

[Andy Bee]

That just isn't true. Support for SNP is hovering around 30-35% mark just now, and support for independence is hovering around the 50% mark. There a plenty within the independence movement absolutely scunnered with the SNP, myself included. They need to get a move on and seize the initiative here, using the very real threat of Prime Minister Farage in 2029 to drive support.

I'm not so sure they need to do anything really apart from Govern the country responsibly, they'll come out and advocate SNP1 and SNP2 which thinking about it is all they can really do. I'm not even sure if it would be legal for them to advocate for another party on the list. It's up to the other parties and individuals to coordinate a plan for who is standing where in the list and then getting the message out. If Reform stand in the constituency vote country wide then there's a huge possibility SNP could nearly or even gain a majority from the constituency vote alone. Those 1m - 1.5m SNP voters voting for Indy candidate 2 on the list will see Reform wiped out in Scotland.

[Hibs4185]

I think salvo have a party?

[Jack]

We have a form of PR in the Scottish Parliament that broadly works. Another party just so we can game the system just doesn’t sit right with me. We need to build support for independence, not game the system so we can gain power in Holyrood.
The unionists have lots of parties and all it does is split their vote. If anything, only having the SNP has been a strength.
If another party grows organically then fair enough but creating another the same is pointless.


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It's not just the voting that's affected by there being only one independence party.

When the TV media are presenting on independence the odds are heavily stacked in the unionists favour 1 for, 3 against. It happens on the news, it happens for every channel, it happens on panel type political shows and Question Time, obviously!

SNP vote for independence it's fabby.

Labour - don't vote independence it's crap.

Tory - don't vote independence it's crap.

Libdems - don't vote independence it's crap.

Even an uninterested viewer couldn't help but think the unionists win every debate.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not just the voting that's affected by there being only one independence party.

When the TV media are presenting on independence the odds are heavily stacked in the unionists favour 1 for, 3 against. It happens on the news, it happens for every channel, it happens on panel type political shows and Question Time, obviously!

SNP vote for independence it's fabby.

Labour - don't vote independence it's crap.

Tory - don't vote independence it's crap.

Libdems - don't vote independence it's crap.

Even an uninterested viewer couldn't help but think the unionists win every debate.

I don’t disagree on that point and reform will join the debate soon as well. Problem is, there is no other viable independence party out there apart from the greens?
Alba can’t get past 1.5% of the vote with Salmond, who know how bad it will be now. They won’t improve until they stop attacking the SNP.


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[Jack]

I don’t disagree on that point and reform will join the debate soon as well. Problem is, there is no other viable independence party out there apart from the greens?
Alba can’t get past 1.5% of the vote with Salmond, who know how bad it will be now. They won’t improve until they stop attacking the SNP.


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I have a feeling the greens are going to all but disappear after their shenanigans while tasting power.

I have no doubt their independence stance was wholly to attract that second vote on the back of the SNP and I doubt they'll get that again.

Any thoughts they might get back into power on the back of a unionist vote and they'd be all over it.

[Andy Bee]

Another Holyrood sources podcast with non other than Anthony Scaramucci, certainly worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga9Nw95QC9Q

[grunt]

Alba showing their true colours ...?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qj3gzxzp2o

[Hibs4185]

Got an email from Salvo last night saying they’ve started the ball rolling with challenging Scotland’s status as a colony. I tried to doit and paste it but it turned into a right mess!

They’ve got some NGO from Switzerland on board and seem to have a good argument.

Not sure it will go anywhere as they need some counties to agree to it being presented at the UN but interesting none the less

[Hibs4185]

https://x.com/TheScotCongress/status/1892227732504777059

[Andy Bee]

The UKG looking to circumvent the Geographical Indication legislation used to protect the name Single Malt which determines in Scotland that a whisky has been produced in one geographical area, using that areas resources and distillery. They're basically trying to change the rules so as to be able to call English whisky which has been produced with ingredients sourced from throughout the UK, using different distilleries and then giving it Single Malt status. You've got to wonder where they get the water from?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/english-geographical-bid-for-single-malt-whisky-status-and-why-it-could-undermine-scotch-5000691

[Hibs4185]

https://x.com/SSalyers2/status/1900120322499543281

All independence supporters please sign up to this.

It may bear no fruit but the arguments are strong and a NGO in Switzerland has strongly backed it.

I also believe the evidence supports it.

[Andy Bee]

https://x.com/SSalyers2/status/1900120322499543281

All independence supporters please sign up to this.

It may bear no fruit but the arguments are strong and a NGO in Switzerland has strongly backed it.

I also believe the evidence supports it.

A video out today explaining some of the process and plans in place. Panel is Sara Salyers of Salvo, Prof Alf Baird of Salvo and John Brown of the Independent Forum Scotland all representing Liberation.scot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dv__OlB6Do

[Hibs4185]

A video out today explaining some of the process and plans in place. Panel is Sara Salyers of Salvo, Prof Alf Baird of Salvo and John Brown of the Independent Forum Scotland all representing Liberation.scot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dv__OlB6Do

Watched about half of it. Alf Baird is pretty impressive.

I agree with everything they are doing and how they are doing it. The arguements look robust and certainly supported by the NGO.

Can’t help but feel something is going to scupper it. Hopefully not

[jamie_1875]

YouGov Polling

Scots say health and economy should be the top priorities for the Scottish government

Health: 55% say should be a top priority
Economy: 54%
Education: 31%
Housing: 25%
Social care: 20%
Crime: 17%
Environment: 15%
Welfare: 14%
Independence: 14%

While the 'No' side still leads when it comes to Scottish independence, support for 'Yes' has reached its highest level since the general election last year

No: 54% (-2 from 6-11 March)
Yes: 46% (+2)

[Moulin Yarns]

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51898-scotland-march-2025-snapshot

Detailed analysis of James's headline figures.

[JimBHibees]

YouGov Polling

Scots say health and economy should be the top priorities for the Scottish government

Health: 55% say should be a top priority
Economy: 54%
Education: 31%
Housing: 25%
Social care: 20%
Crime: 17%
Environment: 15%
Welfare: 14%
Independence: 14%

While the 'No' side still leads when it comes to Scottish independence, support for 'Yes' has reached its highest level since the general election last year

No: 54% (-2 from 6-11 March)
Yes: 46% (+2)

Incredible how manipulated such a vast number of people can be

[Hibs4185]

Incredible how manipulated such a vast number of people can be

I have to concur. I see a few independence supporters online that get huge abuse from unionists and you have to wonder why they live in Scotland given their rhetoric. Scotland’s a **** hole, Westminster funds us blah blah blah.

Unbelievably brain washed.

An English person piped up the other day saying they were sick of funding Scotland, someone rightfully replied saying have an English independence vote and **** off

[JimBHibees]

I have to concur. I see a few independence supporters online that get huge abuse from unionists and you have to wonder why they live in Scotland given their rhetoric. Scotland’s a **** hole, Westminster funds us blah blah blah.

Unbelievably brain washed.

An English person piped up the other day saying they were sick of funding Scotland, someone rightfully replied saying have an English independence vote and **** off

Classic divide and conquer Scotland has been a pretty fertile ground for this over the years

[Jack]

The Scottish Government has plans to annex the Polish shipyard where the new ferries are to be built so they can claim they are being built in Scotland.

Apparently there are also tax advantages.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Scottish Government has plans to annex the Polish shipyard where the new ferries are to be built so they can claim they are being built in Scotland.

Apparently there are also tax advantages.

Gdansk for that.

[Moulin Yarns]

Big majority of yes msps projected for Holyrood next year in latest poll.

[Hibs4185]

Big majority of yes msps projected for Holyrood next year in latest poll.

I’m normally an optimist but I’m nervous whether it can be maintained. Fingers crossed though

[StevieC]

Big majority of yes msps projected for Holyrood next year in latest poll.

Will that not depend on how they tactically utilise the list vote?

[Hibs4185]

Will that not depend on how they tactically utilise the list vote?

I’d imagine so and it’s a crying shame regarding the amount of vitriol online between Alba and SNP voters.

How the people in charge can’t come together and sort out a tactical vote is infuriating.

[Bristolhibby]

YouGov Polling

Scots say health and economy should be the top priorities for the Scottish government

Health: 55% say should be a top priority
Economy: 54%
Education: 31%
Housing: 25%
Social care: 20%
Crime: 17%
Environment: 15%
Welfare: 14%
Independence: 14%

While the 'No' side still leads when it comes to Scottish independence, support for 'Yes' has reached its highest level since the general election last year

No: 54% (-2 from 6-11 March)
Yes: 46% (+2)

I’m always curious about the flip floppers.

For me once you go yes, there’s no turning back.

What makes you think independence is good one year but not the next.

I guess it’s people who are on the fence.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I’d imagine so and it’s a crying shame regarding the amount of vitriol online between Alba and SNP voters.

How the people in charge can’t come together and sort out a tactical vote is infuriating.

Just thinking here. Could a new party called SNP List vote 2 not set itself up.

Totally independent from the SNP. Own governance, own membership and run?

J

[Stairway 2 7]

With it not going to be a landslide I think it might look like SNP 1 2 will be the best policy

[Andy Bee]

With it not going to be a landslide I think it might look like SNP 1 2 will be the best policy

With Labour plummeting and Reform coming in that's far from the best policy unless you want Reform to gain list seats. Maybe the borders and NE but 2nd vote SNP anywhere else gets you a Westminster party as polling stands at the moment.

[Ozyhibby]

Just thinking here. Could a new party called SNP List vote 2 not set itself up.

Totally independent from the SNP. Own governance, own membership and run?

J

I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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[Andy Bee]

I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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I've been thinking about this and initially I admit I thought it was gaming the system but our system gives us two votes, what's the point of that if you're thought of as gaming the system if you vote for a different party with your second vote. The system is there to be used by any means you see fit as long as it's legal naw?

[Moulin Yarns]

With it not going to be a landslide I think it might look like SNP 1 2 will be the best policy

Not for me! The SNP are more centrist now, not wanting to rock the boat. For independence it's got to be SNP 1 and the best placed independence supporting party 2. For most that's likely to be the Scottish Green Party. I've got Mark Ruskell as a list msp and reckon he does a good job.

[Andy Bee]

Not for me! The SNP are more centrist now, not wanting to rock the boat. For independence it's got to be SNP 1 and the best placed independence supporting party 2. For most that's likely to be the Scottish Green Party. I've got Mark Ruskell as a list msp and reckon he does a good job.

You've also got Sally Hughes I think Indy 4 Indy under the Liberate Scotland umbrella, she seems a decent sort.

[Jack]

I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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Unionists have been gaming the system since at least the birth of devolution. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament being a prime example of how a single party could 'never' take control! The fact they did was a nationalist party was an earthquake moment!

Much as I thought I'd be SNP 1 and 2 I'm half considering Alba 2.

I know Alba are bampots but maybe the SNP need a rocket up their bahookie and in a position of responsibility maybe Alba would, with the thought of independence that much closer, would act like grown ups!

We'll see.

[Andy Bee]

Unionists have been gaming the system since at least the birth of devolution. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament being a prime example of how a nationalist party could 'never' take control! The fact they did was an earthquake moment!

Much as I thought I'd be SNP 1 and 2 I'm half considering Alba 2.

I know Alba are bampots but maybe the SNP need a rocket up their bahookie and in a position of responsibility maybe Alba would, with the thought of independence that much closer, would act like grown ups!

We'll see.

I'm in the exact same boat, if the SNP don't get their arse in gear then maybe an opposition who believe in the same thing could make them. Here's a novel idea, the SNP stand down in the list seats they know they can't win and then maybe the latest 56% for Indy vote for them in the constituency giving them a majority. I know, pigs may fly.

[jamie_1875]

We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?

[Kato]

We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?Maybe they'll want a change that brings a bigger push toward independence?

It does begger the question what Labour Party voters want when the vote for a party with no traditional labour policies and that bows to neoliberalism at every turn.

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[jamie_1875]

Maybe they'll want a change that brings a bigger push toward independence?

It does begger the question what Labour Party voters want when the vote for a party with no traditional labour policies and that bows to neoliberalism at every turn.

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A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

[Andy Bee]

A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

Introducing another Indy party via the list vote will force the issue, it'll register a pro indy majority to the UN, it'll raise the pressure on the UKG and most of all it will have a devolved SG with only Scotland controlled parties in charge. What's the problem with that?

[jamie_1875]

Introducing another Indy party via the list vote will force the issue, it'll register a pro indy majority to the UN, it'll raise the pressure on the UKG and most of all it will have a devolved SG with only Scotland controlled parties in charge. What's the problem with that?

Force what issue? There has been a pro Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament for 15 years now! The SNP have been in power and have elected the FM since 2011. So the things you describe above already exist today. No party other than the SNP and Greens have been in government in Scotland since 2011.

You seriously believe the UN are going to intervene and destabilise the UK in the current world climate, the UN don't care. I mean when have the UN ever uttered a word about Scotland? Thinking the UN are going to do something and break up the UK is for the birds I am afraid. As for raising the pressure on the UK Government that's been said for year's now and it makes no difference.

It's not a problem and I get why if you support Indy you have to pursue this and people will vote for what they believe in but I just don't see any difference another pro Indy majority will make to Independence.

[Kato]

A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

Support for Independence has grown a lot in 15 years. Another 5 years and it will grow some more.

I couldn't give a monkeys about the SNP and thought their stunts and legal battles after 2014 have been pointless and a bit silly, none of it has been counterproductive though as support for independence keeps growing.

Around 10% of Tory voters are pro-indepedence. 25-30% of Labour voters are pro-independence. Demographics say its only a matter of time whether I want independence or not.

The only real block on it would be an actual Labour Party but there hasn't been one of them in power since Punk Rock.



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[Andy Bee]

Force what issue? There has been a pro Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament for 15 years now! The SNP have been in power and have elected the FM since 2011. So the things you describe above already exist today. No party other than the SNP and Greens have been in government in Scotland since 2011.

You seriously believe the UN are going to intervene and destabilise the UK in the current world climate, the UN don't care. I mean when have the UN ever uttered a word about Scotland? Thinking the UN are going to do something and break up the UK is for the birds I am afraid. As for raising the pressure on the UK Government that's been said for year's now and it makes no difference.

It's not a problem and I get why if you support Indy you have to pursue this and people will vote for what they believe in but I just don't see any difference another pro Indy majority will make to Independence.

I'm not saying the UN will intervene, I'm saying the UN will have to recognise a democratic vote has returned around 100 Indy seats out of 129. It's at that point Indy will be Internationally accepted as legally binding.

[Jack]

We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?

Even if the independence voters put independence to one side it could quite easy be argued that the SNP has been a better ruling party in Scotland than the torys or Labour have been in England and without doubt better than Labour in Wales.

Why do unionists keep on voting for unionist parties when they're obviously not so good at running things as the SNP are?

[jamie_1875]

I'm not saying the UN will intervene, I'm saying the UN will have to recognise a democratic vote has returned around 100 Indy seats out of 129. It's at that point Indy will be Internationally accepted as legally binding.

You say the UN "will have to recognise" but the UN don't have to do anything, who will make them? Also you said it will be Legally binding but in what way? What law and under what legal jurisdiction?

I am guessing this is a new strategy and I am interested to see where it goes but I suspect the UN aren't going to help facilitate the break up of the UK as easy as it seems to be suggested.

[Moulin Yarns]

How have other countries become independent and become members of the UN?

Well here's one example

June 1991*: Croatia and Slovenia declare their independence from Yugoslavia, and are fully recognized by the international community.September 8 1991*: Macedonia held a national referendum for independence, with 95% of the population voting for a independent state of Macedonia.October 1991*: Macedonia proclaims its independence from Yugoslavia and becomes the Republic of Macedonia. However, it is recognized as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM).1993*: Accession to the United Nations.*

[jamie_1875]

How have other countries become independent and become members of the UN?

Well here's one example

June 1991*: Croatia and Slovenia declare their independence from Yugoslavia, and are fully recognized by the international community.September 8 1991*: Macedonia held a national referendum for independence, with 95% of the population voting for a independent state of Macedonia.October 1991*: Macedonia proclaims its independence from Yugoslavia and becomes the Republic of Macedonia. However, it is recognized as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM).1993*: Accession to the United Nations.*

If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

[Moulin Yarns]

If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

As I understand it, every modern independent country declared independence with referendum and petition the international court of justice at the UN

[jamie_1875]

As I understand it, every modern independent country declared independence with referendum and petition the international court of justice at the UN

Its a confusing picture as that is not what seems to be suggested, there seems to be a suggestion that having 100 Indy MSPs will somehow trigger some UN involvement, not sure what though.

If the route is the UN looks at referendums then surely they look at 2014.

I am just not following what this new strategy is and what the expected UN involvement is going to be. As far as I can see it has zero support amongst the Indy mainstream parties.

[Moulin Yarns]

Its a confusing picture as that is not what seems to be suggested, there seems to be a suggestion that having 100 Indy MSPs will somehow trigger some UN involvement, not sure what though.

If the route is the UN looks at referendums then surely they look at 2014.

I am just not following what this new strategy is and what the expected UN involvement is going to be. As far as I can see it has zero support amongst the Indy mainstream parties.

I didn't say that they look at referendums!

[jamie_1875]

I didn't say that they look at referendums!

In the example quoted it was Macedonia. I just don't see how the UN get involved after the Holyrood elections and it having any significance. If that's what people believe will happen then that's fair enough.

[Andy Bee]

If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

There's a process in place started by an organisation called Sottish Liberation Movement whereby they've employed the services of a Swiss (IIRC) NGO to bring forward the case that Scotland should be recognised as a colony and included on the UN list of colonised countries. A democratic event is needed i.e. an election or referendum to show that the Scottish people want Independence and the UN can step in and facilitate a referendum using their franchise. A return of around 100 Indy supporting MSPs would go a long way in showing that Indy is indeed wanted by a large amount of the people. Not saying it'll be easy but it's another process which can be investigated other than waiting for Westminsters approval.

[Hibs4185]

I can’t see 100 Independece supporting MSP’s ever being achieved but as long as there is a simple majority then that should suffice.

[Stairway 2 7]

The UN nonsense is a fringe idea that obviously isn't going anywhere and isn't known by about 99.9% of the population. Independence should and will only come from a national referendum. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's putting to bed the culture wars and will hopefully push for one in the next 5 to 10 years. I'm confident demographics will get Independence in the next referendum

[Andy Bee]

The UN nonsense is a fringe idea that obviously isn't going anywhere and isn't known by about 99.9% of the population. Independence should and will only come from a national referendum. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's putting to bed the culture wars and will hopefully push for one in the next 5 to 10 years. I'm confident demographics will get Independence in the next referendum

I agree it's a fringe idea but both you and me or anyone else for that matter can't label it "nonsense" and "isn't going anywhere", we simply don't know enough about it. Sara Salyers who has devoted a huge amount of her life looking into Scottish historical constitutional matters and Prof Alf Baird who's an expert in maritime law and colonisation matters with two books under his belt on the subject think this process may work so they're trying, credit to them for that. They don't deserve the insinuation of being some kind of mentalists that's for sure.

[jamie_1875]

There's a process in place started by an organisation called Sottish Liberation Movement whereby they've employed the services of a Swiss (IIRC) NGO to bring forward the case that Scotland should be recognised as a colony and included on the UN list of colonised countries. A democratic event is needed i.e. an election or referendum to show that the Scottish people want Independence and the UN can step in and facilitate a referendum using their franchise. A return of around 100 Indy supporting MSPs would go a long way in showing that Indy is indeed wanted by a large amount of the people. Not saying it'll be easy but it's another process which can be investigated other than waiting for Westminsters approval.

A democratic event like the 2024 General Election? What would the UN make of that when Indy parties got less than 40% of the vote I believe.

When even a mentalist like Pete Wishart thinks it's mental and unhinged then you do have to consider if it is.

"I just don't get this 'Scotland is a colony stuff'. There are few Scots who actually feel colonised and most think this is bonkers"

"Most voters think it's nuts and not remotely in tune with their experience of living here. We've got to be really careful we don't turn people away at this crucial stage."

I just don't see anything coming from it, imagine having that conversation on the doorsteps. Let's not talk about the NHS or Education let's talk about how you feel about your colonialist status?

I also don't understand why some Swiss body is involved, why Swiss and not Scottish? Very little adds up.

Doesn't a colony have no political representation? We have a parliament that can make it's own laws and we democratically elect MPs to the UK Parliament to represent us as well. It fails at the first hurdle.

[Andy Bee]

A democratic event like the 2024 General Election? What would the UN make of that when Indy parties got less than 40% of the vote I believe.

When even a mentalist like Pete Wishart thinks it's mental and unhinged then you do have to consider if it is.

"I just don't get this 'Scotland is a colony stuff'. There are few Scots who actually feel colonised and most think this is bonkers"

"Most voters think it's nuts and not remotely in tune with their experience of living here. We've got to be really careful we don't turn people away at this crucial stage."

I just don't see anything coming from it, imagine having that conversation on the doorsteps. Let's not talk about the NHS or Education let's talk about how you feel about your colonialist status?

I also don't understand why some Swiss body is involved, why Swiss and not Scottish? Very little adds up.

Doesn't a colony have no political representation? We have a parliament that can make it's own laws and we democratically elect MPs to the UK Parliament to represent us as well. It fails at the first hurdle.



Pete Wishart would think that because the UN approach doesn't include any political interference at all. He'd effectively be out his cushy little number at Westminster.

Scotland is not a member of the UN obviously so it can't represent itself.

I mentioned Prof Alf Bairds books, read "Doun-Hauden" and then come back to me when you've got some kind of understanding of what colonisation actually is, my point is nobody feels colonised, that's how it works.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doun-Hauden-Socio-Political-Determinants-Scottish-Independence/dp/B086Y6MMH2

[Stairway 2 7]

Pete Wishart would think that because the UN approach doesn't include any political interference at all. He'd effectively be out his cushy little number at Westminster.

Scotland is not a member of the UN obviously so it can't represent itself.

I mentioned Prof Alf Bairds books, read "Doun-Hauden" and then come back to me when you've got some kind of understanding of what colonisation actually is, my point is nobody feels colonised, that's how it works.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doun-Hauden-Socio-Political-Determinants-Scottish-Independence/dp/B086Y6MMH2

Colony is insulting to people who were colonised. Unlike somewhere like India we have a proportional amount of MPs in the UK parliament, our block grant is greater than our population share, every adult in the nation got a vote a decade ago whether to stay in a union or have independence, the Scottish people chose a union. We'll see where it goes but I think there is as much chance of hearts beating us in the top 6 this season as us getting independence through this

[Andy Bee]

Colony is insulting to people who were colonised. Unlike somewhere like India we have a proportional amount of MPs in the UK parliament, our block grant is greater than our population share, every adult in the nation got a vote a decade ago whether to stay in a union or have independence, the Scottish people chose a union. We'll see where it goes but I think there is as much chance of hearts beating us in the top 6 this season as us getting independence through this

I'm pretty sure there's not a whole load of Indians cursing us Scottish for the mere fact of thinking we're in a colony.

"Google, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony, according to the UN, is a territory under the political control of a foreign power, often one that is distant, with a subordinate colonial government. It's essentially a piece of land controlled by another country. The term "colony" is now frequently replaced with "dependent territory".

"Wikipedia, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony is a territory subject to a form of foreign rule, [1] which rules the territory and its indigenous peoples separated from the foreign rulers.

What is a colony Cambridge Dictionary?

colony [noun] (a group of people who form) a settlement in one country etc which is under the rule of another country. colony [noun] a group of people having the same interests, living close together. colony [noun] a collection of animals, birds etc, of one type, living together. settlement [noun] a small community.

What is the UN definition of colonization?
It designates processes through which a State acquires or maintains full or partial political control over another sovereign nation, or subjugation of groups or entities over others, including terms such as economic, cultural, or ideological colonialism.

I'll rely on all the above quotes from, I think you'll agree, reputable sources. I'll refrain from arguing about it because I don't know enough but the fact is neither do you. Simply to say you don't feel colonised doesn't mean you're not.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm pretty sure there's not a whole load of Indians cursing us Scottish for the mere fact of thinking we're in a colony.

"Google, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony, according to the UN, is a territory under the political control of a foreign power, often one that is distant, with a subordinate colonial government. It's essentially a piece of land controlled by another country. The term "colony" is now frequently replaced with "dependent territory".

"Wikipedia, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony is a territory subject to a form of foreign rule, [1] which rules the territory and its indigenous peoples separated from the foreign rulers.

What is a colony Cambridge Dictionary?

colony [noun] (a group of people who form) a settlement in one country etc which is under the rule of another country. colony [noun] a group of people having the same interests, living close together. colony [noun] a collection of animals, birds etc, of one type, living together. settlement [noun] a small community.

What is the UN definition of colonization?
It designates processes through which a State acquires or maintains full or partial political control over another sovereign nation, or subjugation of groups or entities over others, including terms such as economic, cultural, or ideological colonialism.

I'll rely on all the above quotes from, I think you'll agree, reputable sources. I'll refrain from arguing about it because I don't know enough but the fact is neither do you. Simply to say you don't feel colonised doesn't mean you're not.

None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

[Ozyhibby]

None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

Fully agree with that, we are not a colony. There is a problem with the withdrawal of self determination that we had in 2014. There is no longer a democratic route to independence. That is a problem going forward.


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[Andy Bee]

For anyone interested in the views of Prof Alf Baird here's a Youtube vid of him on the TNT Show a couple of weeks ago with John Drummond. Starts around 11 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoX3jbDb710

[Hibs4185]

100% we are a colony by definition, whether you agree with it or not is a different matter.

The fact that Starmer won’t grant another referendum no matter the result of the 2026 election further enhances the arguemeny we are a colony.

Part of being colonised is making people believe they aren’t colonised

[jamie_1875]

For anyone interested in the views of Prof Alf Baird here's a Youtube vid of him on the TNT Show a couple of weeks ago with John Drummond. Starts around 11 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoX3jbDb710

I googled Alf Baird having never heard of him.

"Alf Baird was formerly Professor of Maritime Business and Director of the Maritime Transport Research Group at Edinburgh Napier University. He also has a PhD in Strategic Management in Global Shipping. His earlier career included working in the shipping industry running international liner shipping services from Scotland"

I mean he sounds like a clever guy but an expert on UN policy and colonies....

This is all related to the Salvo movement and the Claim of Right I believe. The Claim of Right is a hundreds years old document full of sectarian slurs, I am struggling to see how it has any relevance to a modern and progressive Scotland.

I mean let's see where it goes but I am 99.99% sure it goes absolutely nowhere.

[Andy Bee]

None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

Representation?

I'll remind you of the quote by Daniel Defoe.

“The Scots will be allowed to send to Westminster, a handful of men who will make no weight whatever.

They will be allowed to sit there for form’s sake to be laughed at.”

That representation? :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Representation?

I'll remind you of the quote by Daniel Defoe.

“The Scots will be allowed to send to Westminster, a handful of men who will make no weight whatever.

They will be allowed to sit there for form’s sake to be laughed at.”

That representation? :greengrin

Defoe was deed when Blair and Brown led Britain and when Scotland voted no to independence in a fair free election

[Andy Bee]

I googled Alf Baird having never heard of him.

"Alf Baird was formerly Professor of Maritime Business and Director of the Maritime Transport Research Group at Edinburgh Napier University. He also has a PhD in Strategic Management in Global Shipping. His earlier career included working in the shipping industry running international liner shipping services from Scotland"

I mean he sounds like a clever guy but an expert on UN policy and colonies....

This is all related to the Salvo movement and the Claim of Right I believe. The Claim of Right is a hundreds years old document full of sectarian slurs, I am struggling to see how it has any relevance to a modern and progressive Scotland.

I mean let's see where it goes but I am 99.99% sure it goes absolutely nowhere.

He's also been called in by various countries to solve maritime border disputes after decolonisation. Watch the vid or better still read the book I recommended then if you still think Scotland is not a colony then fair play, you've educated yourself and formed your own opinion based on those findings.

I'm not sure what your point is regards the Claim of Rights being hundreds of years old unless you're trying to belittle it to suit your own argument, you wouldn't be doing that would you?. Most laws today are hundreds of years old and still adhered to in a modern society. Thou shall not murder is fairly old innit?

The sole purpose of Liberation Scotland is to take their case via the Swiss NGO to C-24 i.e. Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN and attempt to have Scotland listed as an NSGT (Non Self Governing Territory) if succesful it'll go on a list of countries which are deemed as a country which hasn't exercised it's right to self determination yet. At that point we can ask the UN to administer a referendum using their franchise i'e no outside influence from political or media sources and the voters have to be a citizen of that country only amongst other things I can't remember.

[Andy Bee]

Defoe was deed when Blair and Brown led Britain and when Scotland voted no to independence in a fair free election

Ahhh that was before the six mandates democratically voted for another Independence referendum in six "fair free elections" and voting to stay in Europe only to be dragged out. I remember now.

TBF The Defoe quote still rings true today, I laugh at Wishart all the time.:greengrin

[jamie_1875]

He's also been called in by various countries to solve maritime border disputes after decolonisation. Watch the vid or better still read the book I recommended then if you still think Scotland is not a colony then fair play, you've educated yourself and formed your own opinion based on those findings.

I'm not sure what your point is regards the Claim of Rights being hundreds of years old unless you're trying to belittle it to suit your own argument, you wouldn't be doing that would you?. Most laws today are hundreds of years old and still adhered to in a modern society. Thou shall not murder is fairly old innit?

The sole purpose of Liberation Scotland is to take their case via the Swiss NGO to C-24 i.e. Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN and attempt to have Scotland listed as an NSGT (Non Self Governing Territory) if succesful it'll go on a list of countries which are deemed as a country which hasn't exercised it's right to self determination yet. At that point we can ask the UN to administer a referendum using their franchise i'e no outside influence from political or media sources and the voters have to be a citizen of that country only amongst other things I can't remember.

Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

[Hibs4185]

Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

I’ve got my hopes up and I’m a well educated individual that has done his ‘research’.

Any action whether realistic or unrealistic which builds the case for independence is fine by me

[Hibrandenburg]

Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

Great news, I take it the Act of Union 1707 is also a relic of a bygone age.

[Stairway 2 7]

Great news, I take it the Act of Union 1707 is also a relic of a bygone age.

Yes it is, we would never use it. It has been updated constantly by Parliament as parliamentary sovereignty takes precedence in the UK. Every time modern trade employment and economic laws change including Ireland joining the union in 1800 or brexit the law has to change.

It's like headcases during covid citing magna carta thinking modern UK parliamentary law doesn't take precedence

[Hibs4185]

Yes it is, we would never use it. It has been updated constantly by Parliament as parliamentary sovereignty takes precedence in the UK. Every time modern trade employment and economic laws change including Ireland joining the union in 1800 or brexit the law has to change.

It's like headcases during covid citing magna carta thinking modern UK parliamentary law doesn't take precedence


So if this is the case why does scotland have its own Scot’s law and not UK law and why is the scottish crown laying idle?

The claim by Salvo and liberation scotland is that the two countries constitution are incompatible with each other and the laws to reconcile both counties as per the act of union was never enacted, England merely took over, if the UK parliament is sovereign and new laws have taken precedent over act of union etc then why don’t we have one legal system for the whole UK?

Northern Ireland, Wales and England all use the same system?

All these claims whether you support it or not will ultimately be decided by the UN which is the point I suppose.

If you study the Salvo case and the definition of a colony, it’s very hard to come to any other conclusion that Scotland is a colony.

A further point, the NGO whose help was needed to approach the UN, they are wholly independent and they also fully support the claims. These are not some mad nut cases that support anything.

[Ozyhibby]

So if this is the case why does scotland have its own Scot’s law and not UK law and why is the scottish crown laying idle?

The claim by Salvo and liberation scotland is that the two countries constitution are incompatible with each other and the laws to reconcile both counties as per the act of union was never enacted, England merely took over, if the UK parliament is sovereign and new laws have taken precedent over act of union etc then why don’t we have one legal system for the whole UK?

Northern Ireland, Wales and England all use the same system?

All these claims whether you support it or not will ultimately be decided by the UN which is the point I suppose.

If you study the Salvo case and the definition of a colony, it’s very hard to come to any other conclusion that Scotland is a colony.

A further point, the NGO whose help was needed to approach the UN, they are wholly independent and they also fully support the claims. These are not some mad nut cases that support anything.

It will ultimately be decided by the people of Scotland, not the UN. There are no shortcuts here. First we need to make sure a majority want independence. The ‘how’ Will fall into place afterwards.


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[Andy Bee]

It will ultimately be decided by the people of Scotland, not the UN. There are no shortcuts here. First we need to make sure a majority want independence. The ‘how’ Will fall into place afterwards.


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I don't think anyone is suggesting the UN will decide anything without the will of the majority of people. The case is to try and get Scotland recognised as an NSGT and if successful they can help facilitate "The How" if needed. It's just another avenue which is being explored, I don't see a problem with that, if you support Indy then why not support this until either it's successful or it's shot down?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250424/331e734c3c0349e682c8fe8bf2d09b49.png

Two countries moving in a different directions.


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[Andy Bee]

For anyone interested the SSRG Conference is taking place this weekend starting today. Live Youtube tickets can be purchased for the event at £5. Speakers like Jim Sillars, Tim Rideout, Sara Salyers, Tommy Sheridan and Richard Murphy are just some of the lineup.

https://www.ssrg-conference.com/agenda

[Hibs4185]

For anyone interested the SSRG Conference is taking place this weekend starting today. Live Youtube tickets can be purchased for the event at £5. Speakers like Jim Sillars, Tim Rideout, Sara Salyers, Tommy Sheridan and Richard Murphy are just some of the lineup.

https://www.ssrg-conference.com/agenda

Id love to watch some of it but the rangers game and a few beers wil get in the way!

[jamie_1875]

Is Tommy Sheridan really people on the Independence side someone they want to be associated with? A quote from him below. I mean from the list above just add Craig Murray and you have a full set.

“Russia is not my enemy and their military action against Ukraine was provoked by the aggressive actions of NATO. Russia is justified in defending itself from NATO aggression. The US and NATO are the root cause of world instability not Russia or China.”

[Ozyhibby]

Is Tommy Sheridan really people on the Independence side someone they want to be associated with? A quote from him below. I mean from the list above just add Craig Murray and you have a full set.

“Russia is not my enemy and their military action against Ukraine was provoked by the aggressive actions of NATO. Russia is justified in defending itself from NATO aggression. The US and NATO are the root cause of world instability not Russia or China.”

Which is why the SNP have nothing to do with this.


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[jamie_1875]

Which is why the SNP have nothing to do with this.


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Entirely sensible move based on that line up.

[Hibs4185]

I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

[Andy Bee]

I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

Alba, ISP and others take that stance, not so much the SNP. It gets my goat when they come out with things like the Independence papers for post independence, it's nothing to do with them what happens post Independence that's down to a Constitutional Convention, perish the thought if Indy is gained that we revert to a mini Westminster type system, direct democracy all the way for me.

[jamie_1875]

I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

Why does Scotland need to be Independent to vote for the parties or beliefs you list above? Republican, anti war, pro palestine, pro Russian etc. If there is demand for those parties today wouldn't they exist?

[Hibs4185]

Why does Scotland need to be Independent to vote for the parties or beliefs you list above? Republican, anti war, pro palestine, pro Russian etc. If there is demand for those parties today wouldn't they exist?


Doesn’t have to be at all, I’m just pointing out that independence voters have all manner of different political beliefs

[Ozyhibby]

I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

The SNP would probably survive as the only centre left party in Scotland.


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[Hibs4185]

The SNP would probably survive as the only centre left party in Scotland.


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Yeah but I think a new party should be formed. It can be the new SNP but a lot of floating voters don’t vote yes because they don’t like the SNP.

The SNP should be for getting independence. Once it’s achieved it should be disbanded and a new party with the same policies should be formed.

It’s like there is some independence supporters support Brexit. Once we are independent they can vote for an anti-EU party. But at this moment time the SNP are pro-EU so the potential yes voter won’t vote for the SNP.

I know the SNP would never agree to it but I genuinely feel it’s a key aspect in gaining independence

Just another point, the SNP should be a melting pot of all political views all coming together to gain independence. You should be able to be conservative financially and support independence or liberal and support all the transgender stuff that’s been going on all
Under the SNP roof.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah but I think a new party should be formed. It can be the new SNP but a lot of floating voters don’t vote yes because they don’t like the SNP.

The SNP should be for getting independence. Once it’s achieved it should be disbanded and a new party with the same policies should be formed.

It’s like there is some independence supporters support Brexit. Once we are independent they can vote for an anti-EU party. But at this moment time the SNP are pro-EU so the potential yes voter won’t vote for the SNP.

I know the SNP would never agree to it but I genuinely feel it’s a key aspect in gaining independence

Just another point, the SNP should be a melting pot of all political views all coming together to gain independence. You should be able to be conservative financially and support independence or liberal and support all the transgender stuff that’s been going on all
Under the SNP roof.

I neither agree or disagree. I really don’t care what they do after Indy. I’m a mostly centrist voter so there will be someone who caters for my needs.


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[Hibs4185]

I neither agree or disagree. I really don’t care what they do after Indy. I’m a mostly centrist voter so there will be someone who caters for my needs.


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That’s what I mean, the SNP or new SNP can rebrand or re-align with whatever they feel is the most important issues for them.

If it’s centrist, centre left or whatever, but for the time being they have to be open to every political view in order to achieve their main priority.

Except for racists etc of course , but jets face it they’d never join or vote SNP anyway

[jamie_1875]

Back to the carrot and stick approach, but will it work this time?

https://x.com/ScotNational/status/1934726216327585959?t=bK4vJq7FrFbwOMNgGDfqqA&s=19

'Independence within reach,' Swinney to tell conference.

This was 2019 when the then SNP leader said Independence was within touching distance. It's the same old tactics isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/02/independent-scotland-within-touching-distance-claims-nicola-sturgeon

"An independent Scotland is “within touching distance”, Nicola Sturgeon will tell a pro-independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday afternoon"

[Mon Dieu4]

Back to the carrot and stick approach, but will it work this time?

https://x.com/ScotNational/status/1934726216327585959?t=bK4vJq7FrFbwOMNgGDfqqA&s=19

'Independence within reach,' Swinney to tell conference.

This was 2019 when the then SNP leader said Independence was within touching distance. It's the same old tactics isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/02/independent-scotland-within-touching-distance-claims-nicola-sturgeon

"An independent Scotland is “within touching distance”, Nicola Sturgeon will tell a pro-independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday afternoon"

What do you want them to say? Independence is at about 50/50 and has been for about a decade, it's pretty much stalemate, of course the leader of the SNP is going to talk it up

[grunt]

What do you want them to say? Independence is at about 50/50 and has been for about a decade, it's pretty much stalemate, of course the leader of the SNP is going to talk it up
He wants them to be quiet and go away?

[jamie_1875]

He wants them to be quiet and go away?

To be fair they have for a few years now. Remember the days when there was debate about was there 100,000 on that Indy march or was it really only 50,000. You would be lucky to get 500 now.

My original point being the carrot and stick approach seems to be the SNP plan for 2026, but I think this time people aren't falling for it, hence why support for the SNP is declining but support for Indy remains about the same.

[He's here!]

Back to the carrot and stick approach, but will it work this time?

https://x.com/ScotNational/status/1934726216327585959?t=bK4vJq7FrFbwOMNgGDfqqA&s=19

'Independence within reach,' Swinney to tell conference.

This was 2019 when the then SNP leader said Independence was within touching distance. It's the same old tactics isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/02/independent-scotland-within-touching-distance-claims-nicola-sturgeon

"An independent Scotland is “within touching distance”, Nicola Sturgeon will tell a pro-independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday afternoon"

It's been within touching distance since 2015 if you believe the National, which runs a 'Get ready for indy!' type front page headline with monotonous regularity.

[jamie_1875]

It's been within touching distance since 2015 if you believe the National, which runs a 'Get ready for indy!' type front page headline with monotonous regularity.

I want to know where we are on Mike Russels 11 point plan? Remember him and his horsebox?

[Hibspur]

I want to know where we are on Mike Russels 11 point plan? Remember him and his horsebox?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63730653

Another plan which came together well.