Scottish Independence

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Do you really want an echo chamber?

Do you really want to make me cry? 😉

[Skol]

noooooooo the EU wouldn't want us, we're just too wee :(

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347393866_597197049184190_6753340568142759429_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=HN3qL_cHpFQAX8e4Dp9&_nc_oc=AQnCWQ8dDpaWmTIUM0nGsP-NvessfviaJY_gZogCZI2r9IUf_qFgP6Lg1wrOsP6NzIs&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAkjwYP1W6V-VF7R-ekBusjrmUZHS2e07xLRsJygCcxBw&oe=64976F76

We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

[Jack]

We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

How would it be handing it to the EU? (Other than the stats.)

[CropleyWasGod]

We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

Currently, Corporation Tax (and most energy-related taxes) are reserved, so the UK Treasury takes the tax revenue. In an IS, the Scottish Treasury would have it.

[grunt]

Measuring state pension as a percentage of average earnings is not helpful, apparently.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzH1I25WAAEO2SR?format=jpg&name=medium

[archie]

Measuring state pension as a percentage of average earnings is not helpful, apparently.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzH1I25WAAEO2SR?format=jpg&name=medium

If you looked at the OECD link I posted you'll see that it's a lot more complex than that. Mix of workplace schemes which are less common elsewhere, higher pension contributions abroad and range of benefits in UK, plus NHS. I'm not saying that the UK pension arrangements are good, but the stuff you are posting doesn't represent the full story.

[grunt]

If you looked at the OECD link I posted you'll see that it's a lot more complex than that. Mix of workplace schemes which are less common elsewhere, higher pension contributions abroad and range of benefits in UK, plus NHS. I'm not saying that the UK pension arrangements are good, but the stuff you are posting doesn't represent the full story.
I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.

[degenerated]

I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.You're making the mistake of comparing us against countries which are better at something. That's not how it works :greengrin

[Keith_M]

If somebody made another poll on independence but instead had two questions:

1) Would you vote in favour of independence,
AND
2) Do you think it will ever happen

...,my answers would have to be YES and NO, in that order.


As others have said, the 'Yes' figure usually fluctuates somewhere around the 50% mark (currently a bit lower), but there's no trend now to suggest this is increasing, or that it will change anytime soon.

Combine that with the UK establishment's apparent determination to block a referendum, I think it's unlikely we'll see another one in my lifetime.

[weecounty hibby]

Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

[Ozyhibby]

Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

I’m yes and yes as well. There is nobody making the positive case for the union anymore. There is the occasional attempt but it always seems almost apologetic.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

I agree. I feel that the only thing holding it together is a fear of leaving. Yet, if we were never part of the UK in the first place, then we'd be looking at it right now with a fear of joining. Sometimes it's difficult to see what something is turning into, when you're part of that something. I believe that's where Scotland is right now.

[Keith_M]

Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq


I’m yes and yes as well. There is nobody making the positive case for the union anymore. There is the occasional attempt but it always seems almost apologetic.


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I'm maybe just more negative than you guys, but I'm not really seeing a surge in enthusiasm in general for independence, hence my current feeling about it.


This is obviously just one guy's opinion... and I am a miserable old git :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I'm maybe just more negative than you guys, but I'm not really seeing a surge in enthusiasm in general for independence, hence my current feeling about it.


This is obviously just one guy's opinion... and I am a miserable old git :greengrin

I don’t think there is a surge either way. It’s pretty steady and doesn’t move much. 51-49 is progress from 2014 but that’s about it. Is that people changing their mind or just demographic gradually moving in Yes’s favour? No idea personally.


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[Jack]

I don’t think there is a surge either way. It’s pretty steady and doesn’t move much. 51-49 is progress from 2014 but that’s about it. Is that people changing their mind or just demographic gradually moving in Yes’s favour? No idea personally.


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But we all know what happened the last time. A 20ish% surge in the independence vote is why we'll not get permission in the way it was granted last time round.

[Ozyhibby]

But we all know what happened the last time. A 20ish% surge in the independence vote is why we'll not get permission in the way it was granted last time round.

I can see why they fear it but I don’t see what their long term plan is? There isn’t really any attempt to make things better or give more autonomy to Scotland? Gordon Browns plan was so watered down it was really just about the House of Lords by the time it got released and it looks like that has been shelved now as well.
I think the plan has been to go after Sturgeon and hope support crumbles thereafter. Indy support hasn’t moved an inch and they have put everything into discrediting her.
Maybe they are playing 3D chess and I just can’t see it.[emoji2369]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230621/79e6db3fc946bca830b5b9f43c8a0d67.jpg


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[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230621/79e6db3fc946bca830b5b9f43c8a0d67.jpg


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These tricky statisticians putting 3 individual single stats up together because 3 tweets with an individual stat each would be meaningless 😆

[cabbageandribs1875]

but but we're just too wee :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355431207_3266639206959431_6024863715264510554_n.p ng?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=v8H4Ex0n70wAX-__EZQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAn-jrb4o5x9a2VKsMNdS7wQHvyMqbmr2JT-7KjRmfCeA&oe=6497AEE1

[archie]

I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.

But that measure is widely misconstrued, including on here. It the equivalent of posting a list of the minimum wage by country and the saying that represents average earnings.

[Ozyhibby]

But that measure is widely misconstrued, including on here. It the equivalent of posting a list of the minimum wage by country and the saying that represents average earnings.

Are you saying our average earnings compare favourably with our neighbours?


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[Mibbes Aye]

but but we're just too wee :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355431207_3266639206959431_6024863715264510554_n.p ng?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=v8H4Ex0n70wAX-__EZQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAn-jrb4o5x9a2VKsMNdS7wQHvyMqbmr2JT-7KjRmfCeA&oe=6497AEE1

That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

Certainly nice for a sensible and realistic transition from fossil fuels to renewable's as opposed to Labours 'jam tomorrow' approach.

[archie]

Are you saying our average earnings compare favourably with our neighbours?


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I'm saying that the state pension stat is seriously misleading in terms of what pensioners actually receive.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

Lorna Slater mislead parliament by saying Scotland had 25% of Europe's potential capacity. The stat wasn't sourced but still used

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23132550.greens-lorna-slater-misled-parliament-energy-figure/

[Skol]

How would it be handing it to the EU? (Other than the stats.)

Which was my point. It’s really a meaningless article.

[Jack]

I'm saying that the state pension stat is seriously misleading in terms of what pensioners actually receive.

That pensions stat has been announced on a regular basis for as long as I can remember suggesting it's not tied to any particular party bashing. A good 20/30 years anyway.

You would have thought your excuse for it being so low would have been officially challenged in that time with actual figures to show these hidden, uncosted benefits you speak of. Figures that could be fact checked. You'd also think that now and again at least the multiple agencies producing these figures would also include a UK government disclaimer/footnote detailing them too. I can't say I've ever seen any.

[Stairway 2 7]

A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

[CropleyWasGod]

A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

... partly offset by the tax revenue on pension income.

[Curried]

A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

I'm not clear on how they have come up with this number, but the article is clearly bollocks, as the Australian State Pension for the poorest in society is currently $523/week. That's about 285 quid a week or 100 quid (>50%) a week more than the UK State pension listed in the table!!!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That’s a sensational headline.

And also, how the **** can it be true?

According to the London School of Economics, Scotland has more installed tidal capacity than the rest of the world combined.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not clear on how they have come up with this number, but the article is clearly bollocks, as the Australian State Pension for the poorest in society is currently $523/week. That's about 285 quid a week or 100 quid (>50%) a week more than the UK State pension listed in the table!!!
It's not the article that is making the numbers, it's the OECD that people are also using above my post to quote uk figures.

Here's the OECD data, they QUOTE high cost of living in Australia
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oecd.org/australia/PAG2019-AUS.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidg7D6w9b_AhXb1TgGHa9fCisQFnoECAUQBg&usg=AOvVaw3sBdaOdgtl39JE9hrL8rOy

[Jones28]

According to the London School of Economics, Scotland has more installed tidal capacity than the rest of the world combined.

Read it on phone, thanks for explaining!

[Curried]

It's not the article that is making the numbers, it's the OECD that people are also using above my post to quote uk figures.

Here's the OECD data, they QUOTE high cost of living in Australia
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oecd.org/australia/PAG2019-AUS.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidg7D6w9b_AhXb1TgGHa9fCisQFnoECAUQBg&usg=AOvVaw3sBdaOdgtl39JE9hrL8rOy

Cheers for the link.
I'm still not clear on how they calculate "Old-Age Poverty", but it appears from one of the graphs given that this metric is almost twice as high in Korea as it is in Australia or the US!

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/winnie-ewing-former-snp-president-and-independence-stalwart-dies?utm_source=app

A sad loss.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

:boo hoo::boo hoo: RIP Winnie


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347378984_798666484971200_4277043891555479970_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=VC2iA9ag3BEAX9pHauo&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDsFCAz2Zpvz1-kMCS8tVWdebwp4e8YrwUPvPHuDGoXXg&oe=6499F90C

[archie]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/winnie-ewing-former-snp-president-and-independence-stalwart-dies?utm_source=app

A sad loss.


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Certainly the poitician of her generation. What a life lived.

[marinello59]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/winnie-ewing-former-snp-president-and-independence-stalwart-dies?utm_source=app

A sad loss.


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That’s sad news. A thoroughly decent politician respected by people no matter where their own political allegiance lay.
RIP

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65995657?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=2470E158-11A8-11EE-9BE5-D0AEFF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

Another decision made in London opposed by almost all in Scotland? I can’t think of any group who would be in favour of this?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65995657?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=2470E158-11A8-11EE-9BE5-D0AEFF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

Another decision made in London opposed by almost all in Scotland? I can’t think of any group who would be in favour of this?


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"We were not consulted on this" basically sums up how Westminster treats Holyrood in general. They demand that Holyrood consult Westminster over devolved matters, so they can then decide whether it's acceptable or not. But when it comes to reserved matters, they plow straight ahead with no word of warning, regardless of the economic, social or ethical impacts on Scotland.

[Jones28]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65995657?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=2470E158-11A8-11EE-9BE5-D0AEFF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

Another decision made in London opposed by almost all in Scotland? I can’t think of any group who would be in favour of this?


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We need to do something. If we can make a better fist of housing refugees than they are in England (food, mingin hotels etc) then I think this could be a start.

The lack of consultation is poor.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65995657?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=2470E158-11A8-11EE-9BE5-D0AEFF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

Another decision made in London opposed by almost all in Scotland? I can’t think of any group who would be in favour of this?


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Am I the only one seeing an opportunity for Hibs here?

Do something in support of asylum seekers, which fits well with our founding ethos.

Highlighting it in a way that shows the Tories up would be even better.

[Ozyhibby]

Am I the only one seeing an opportunity for Hibs here?

Do something in support of asylum seekers, which fits well with our founding ethos.

Highlighting it in a way that shows the Tories up would be even better.

What’s needed is a couple of thousand empty houses. Mind you, the way interest rates are going, we might soon have that.[emoji51]


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[Mibbes Aye]

What’s needed is a couple of thousand empty houses. Mind you, the way interest rates are going, we might soon have that.[emoji51]


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Ooft. The Daily Mail and the Daily Express would have to switch to A2 front pages, to fit their headline in.

Mortgages, illegal asylum seekers swamping our villages, property prices.....all they would need is a way of including Harry and Meghan.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/celebs4indy/status/1672301031315652631?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

New Yes favourable poll.


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[Skol]

Yousaf heckled by someone during his speech in Dundee. Looked like he did his best to handle it going to speak to the lady, but she seemed in a bit of a state.

[Ozyhibby]

Yousaf heckled by someone during his speech in Dundee. Looked like he did his best to handle it going to speak to the lady, but she seemed in a bit of a state.

Thought he handled it really well. Think she was protesting the recent medical scandal.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/pjwoodside/status/1084741154669821952?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Skol]

https://twitter.com/pjwoodside/status/1084741154669821952?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Telegraph is behind a paywall is it not so unless you subscribe or but the paper you won’t see the story anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

Telegraph is behind a paywall is it not so unless you subscribe or but the paper you won’t see the story anyway.

You won’t see it if you buy the paper in Scotland I think is the point being made?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

You won’t see it if you buy the paper in Scotland I think is the point being made?


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:agree:

The Telegraph, just like the Mail and Express are notorious for printing conflicting headlines depending on what side of the border they are presenting their paper to. It's almost like a running joke to them, that many don't seem to notice.

[Skol]

You won’t see it if you buy the paper in Scotland I think is the point being made?


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Which is the same thing. And I suspect not many are bought in Scotland anyway.

[Skol]

:agree:

The Telegraph, just like the Mail and Express are notorious for printing conflicting headlines depending on what side of the border they are presenting their paper to. It's almost like a running joke to them, that many don't seem to notice.

I have never bought any of the three, so wouldn’t notice.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I have never bought any of the three, so wouldn’t notice.

Neither have I. But it's easy enough to find examples of this online with a search. Here's an example:

April 22, 2014
https://149739034.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/express.png

[Skol]

Neither have I. But it's easy enough to find examples of this online with a search. Here's an example:

April 22, 2014
https://149739034.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/express.png

I doubt I have even googled them either.

[Just Alf]

I doubt I have even googled them either.Point still stands though surely?

[archie]

:agree:

The Telegraph, just like the Mail and Express are notorious for printing conflicting headlines depending on what side of the border they are presenting their paper to. It's almost like a running joke to them, that many don't seem to notice.

The Sun does it too. For example in 2015 supporting the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/30/scottish-suns-backing-for-snp-while-uk-edition-supports-tories-slammed

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The Sun does it too. For example in 2015 supporting the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/30/scottish-suns-backing-for-snp-while-uk-edition-supports-tories-slammed

The SNP don't stand in England though. So it wouldn't make sense for them to support the SNP in England as well. The Daily Express supports a 'UK economic doomsday' narrative in England and a 'prosperous union' narrative in Scotland. Despite being the same union.

[archie]

The SNP don't stand in England though. So it wouldn't make sense for them to support the SNP in England as well. The Daily Express supports a 'UK economic doomsday' narrative in England and a 'prosperous union' narrative in Scotland. Despite being the same union.

'Doesn't 'make sense how? They could support the Tories in Scotland. I suspect one reason will be to maximise the anti Labour vote across the UK.

[Skol]

Point still stands though surely?

Not really as it’s not the big deal you would like it to be. Only likely to be seen by people who hold those views anyway. Or those looking for a grievance

[TrumpIsAPeado]

'Doesn't 'make sense how? They could support the Tories in Scotland. I suspect one reason will be to maximise the anti Labour vote across the UK.

That was certainly the case pre-Keir, although they seem to have softened their stance somewhat against the UK's replacement neo-liberal.

[Just Alf]

Not really as it’s not the big deal you would like it to be. Only likely to be seen by people who hold those views anyway. Or those looking for a grievanceI still think if the owner (or editor) of a newspaper can put out two diametrically opposing headlines about the same story it tells you all you need to know about the paper in question , they're clearly putting their own spin rather than reporting facts.

Mind you, unlike the BBC.... , like The National, we're not expecting them to be "impartial" so fair do's I guess.

Ps I do realise I'm now arguing with myself! :rofl:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Sir Starmer will be ragin

Labour peer backs Humza Yousaf's plan for a written constitution | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23608578.labour-peer-backs-humza-yousafs-plan-written-constitution/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR3YjtVYIrkZ5tUrbn-KmaNqDazMFIq8wwTP-B2z8QJ2FjILW0UHp1VNtrE)

A SENIOR Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) politician has backed the First Minister’s plan for the creation of a written constitution for Scotland in anticipation for independence (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-independence/).
The Labour peer and human rights lawyer Baroness Helena Kennedy said “people should be going to work on creating a written constitution for an independent Scotland, definitely.

“I would do it now if I were in that camp”.

It comes after Humza Yousaf unveiled official plans for an independent Scotland to have a “permanent” constitution based on the values of the people.
He said that the constitution “would set out how democracy, rights and equality would be at the heart of everything we do as an independent nation”.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sir Starmer will be ragin

Labour peer backs Humza Yousaf's plan for a written constitution | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23608578.labour-peer-backs-humza-yousafs-plan-written-constitution/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR3YjtVYIrkZ5tUrbn-KmaNqDazMFIq8wwTP-B2z8QJ2FjILW0UHp1VNtrE)

A SENIOR Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) politician has backed the First Minister’s plan for the creation of a written constitution for Scotland in anticipation for independence (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-independence/).
The Labour peer and human rights lawyer Baroness Helena Kennedy said “people should be going to work on creating a written constitution for an independent Scotland, definitely.

“I would do it now if I were in that camp”.

It comes after Humza Yousaf unveiled official plans for an independent Scotland to have a “permanent” constitution based on the values of the people.
He said that the constitution “would set out how democracy, rights and equality would be at the heart of everything we do as an independent nation”.



I don't think he will be that bothered. If Scotland were to be an independent nation most people would agree it would need a written constitution and these things take an inordinate amount of time. There was a decent start to a discussion earlier today about it on the Labour thread.

What's not being said here is that Humza's plan isn't a plan yet, it is just an idea. It would be difficult to formulate a constitution without knowing what any process was for leaving the union.

What's also not being said but is hilarious is that this tentative idea, insofar as there's much detail to comment on, is pretty much a direct but weaker lift of Gordon Brown's proposal for the UK from last year :faf:

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery eh? In fact if Scotland is to be independent, would we not be better tucking Humza safely back into his play pen and giving the job to a grown-up? El Presidente Gordon Brown sounds good to me. And let's face it, he's got a greater intellect than the current Scottish Cabinet combined :greengrin

[Just Alf]

I don't think he will be that bothered. If Scotland were to be an independent nation most people would gree it would need a written constitution and these things take an inordinate amount of time. There was a decent start to a discussion earlier today about it on the Labour thread.

What's not being said here is that Humza's plan isn't a plan yet, it is just an idea. It would be difficult to formulate a constitution without knowing what any process was for leaving the union.

What's also not being said but is hilarious is that this tentative idea, insofar as there's much detail to comment on, is pretty much a direct but weaker lift of Gordon Brown's proposal for the UK from last year :faf:

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery eh? In fact if Scotland is to be independent, would we not be better tucking Humza safely back into his play pen and giving the job to a grown-up? El Presidente Gordon Brown sounds good to me. And let's face it, he's got a greater intellect than the current Scottish Cabinet combined :greengrinThere's many that think if independence was to be realised There's a very good chance Labour would be in government at some point, much sooner rather than later, so if GB is still around, and given the leadership by the party, its not inconceivable he'd b up for the top gig

[Mibbes Aye]

There's many that think if independence was to be realised There's a very good chance Labour would be in government at some point, much sooner rather than later, so if GB is still around, and given the leadership by the party, its not inconceivable he'd b up for the top gig

Vote Yes, Get Gordon?


https://media.tenor.com/vBfa7OZ1tVEAAAAC/the-social-network-i-didnt-know-that.gif


:greengrin
<iframe src="https://gifer.com/embed/Hpot" width=480 height=195.840 frameBorder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://gifer.com">via GIFER</a></p>
<iframe src="https://gifer.com/embed/Hpot" width=480 height=195.840 frameBorder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://gifer.com">via GIFER</a></p>

[TrumpIsAPeado]

There's many that think if independence was to be realised There's a very good chance Labour would be in government at some point, much sooner rather than later, so if GB is still around, and given the leadership by the party, its not inconceivable he'd b up for the top gig

He won't though. Because it's far easier to go around making speeches and promising things on behalf of the UK Government (which never need to be held up), while being paid the big poonds. He never needs to worry about being responsible for anything again, while maintaining his generally lucrative life style.

[Glory Lurker]

Scotland will be so diddy on independence that our army will just be Gordon Brown with a bucket of staplers.

[archie]

He won't though. Because it's far easier to go around making speeches and promising things on behalf of the UK Government (which never need to be held up), while being paid the big poonds. He never needs to worry about being responsible for anything again, while maintaining his generally lucrative life style.

He's such a bad un... https://gordonandsarahbrown.com/office-of-gordon-sarah-brown/

[Mibbes Aye]

Scotland will be so diddy on independence that our army will just be Gordon Brown with a bucket of staplers.


https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270067978742/Labour-strategists-campai-001.jpg?width=465&quality=85&dpr=1&s=none

[Glory Lurker]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270067978742/Labour-strategists-campai-001.jpg?width=465&quality=85&dpr=1&s=none

Aye, that's me :faf:

What? You got one of those big staplers? Bring it!

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, that's me :faf:

What? You got one of those big staplers? Bring it!

Say hello to my leetul stapler.......

https://dangerousminds.net/content/uploads/images/made/content/uploads/images/AAscarfpac11_465_314_int.jpghttps://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270070571566/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-008.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270070571566/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-008.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/1/1270078411788/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-009.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/1/1270078411788/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-009.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

[Glory Lurker]

Say hello to my leetul stapler.......

https://dangerousminds.net/content/uploads/images/made/content/uploads/images/AAscarfpac11_465_314_int.jpghttps://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270070571566/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-008.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270070571566/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-008.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/1/1270078411788/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-009.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/1/1270078411788/Gordon-Brown-campaign-pos-009.jpg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

Ha! And I thought hiding a Nokia in my pocket was poor form. Never trust Labour ;-)

[JimBHibees]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/31/1270067978742/Labour-strategists-campai-001.jpg?width=465&quality=85&dpr=1&s=none

Wonder how his vow is getting on. Still trying to diddle us out of oil revenue by redrawing boundaries. Absolute sell out

[marinello59]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.

[grunt]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story.
Interested* to hear what story you think it tells. For me, there's no longer any point in posting positive SNP stories any more because of all the usual suspects who jump on the thread and like nothing better than to piss on our chips with their dull "Scotland-is-crap-we'll-never-be-able-to cope-on-our-own-and-SNP-are-all-crooks" mantra. So I'll just eat my nice Indy chips quietly on my own and let all the boring negative unionists blow each other off.

It's like trying to have a discussion praising Hibs on Kickback - not worth the effort.

*Actually, not interested at all.

[Callum_62]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.I don't even know why it's an argument or a debate about how having the majority of mps being a mandate

Is only became a debate as the unionist parties wanted to muddy the waters

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Interested* to hear what story you think it tells. For me, there's no longer any point in posting positive SNP stories any more because of all the usual suspects who jump on the thread and like nothing better than to piss on our chips with their dull "Scotland-is-crap-we'll-never-be-able-to cope-on-our-own-and-SNP-are-all-crooks" mantra. So I'll just eat my nice Indy chips quietly on my own and let all the boring negative unionists blow each other off.

It's like trying to have a discussion praising Hibs on Kickback - not worth the effort.

*Actually, not interested at all.

There were over five hundred empty seats at the Caird Hall yesterday. Given the amount of members the SNP have and the lack of comment from the faithful here it looks like yesterdays workshop has been met with a collective “meh”

I shouldn’t have to add this but I’ve supported Independence my whole adult life and I’m one of the older posters. criticising the SNP is not the same as talking Scotland down.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.

Well who else are they going to lend their vote to? One of the oppressors?

[lapsedhibee]

Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.

[Skol]

Well who else are they going to lend their vote to? One of the oppressors?

That’s the problem for the independence movement. sNP are the only show in town. Now that some of their shortcomings are being more widely accepted from within their own support, they have a problem

Yesterdays announcement for me is an attempt to stem the flow of votes away from the snp. Whether that’s to stop people turning elsewhere or just from not voting at all. Yousaf needs that 47% Indy support to vote snp. Hence why he is dangling the carrot in much the same way sturgeon used to

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That’s the problem for the independence movement. sNP are the only show in town. Now that some of their shortcomings are being more widely accepted from within their own support, they have a problem

Yesterdays announcement for me is an attempt to stem the flow of votes away from the snp. Whether that’s to stop people turning elsewhere or just from not voting at all. Yousaf needs that 47% Indy support to vote snp. Hence why he is dangling the carrot in much the same way sturgeon used to

Every political party has their shortcomings. I agree that there is a risk of a lower turn out, but I certainly don't see SNP voters switching over to another party that is responsible for effectively making a future referendum impossible. What I think will happen is that Labour will gain seats from the SNP in Scotland, not from SNP voters, but from Conservative voters that they've been dangling the carrot in front of for the last 3 years. They'll then try and claim that support for independence in Scotland is dropping due to the drop in SNP seats, even if the SNP vote share hasn't gone down at all. They think we're idiots up here.

[Stairway 2 7]

Every political party has their shortcomings. I agree that there is a risk of a lower turn out, but I certainly don't see SNP voters switching over to another party that is responsible for effectively making a future referendum impossible. What I think will happen is that Labour will gain seats from the SNP in Scotland, not from SNP voters, but from Conservative voters that they've been dangling the carrot in front of for the last 3 years. They'll then try and claim that support for independence in Scotland is dropping due to the drop in SNP seats, even if the SNP vote share hasn't gone down at all. They think we're idiots up here.

It's idiotic to think there's isnt a huge probability some snp voters will go to Labour, especially as it seems it will help bring Labour to power.

[Skol]

It's idiotic to think there's isnt a huge probability some snp voters will go to Labour, especially as it seems it will help bring Labour to power.

I agree that it’s. Pre likely that independence voters will just not vote. Some though will return to vote labour as it’s a realistic route to getting rid of the tories.

[archie]

Every political party has their shortcomings. I agree that there is a risk of a lower turn out, but I certainly don't see SNP voters switching over to another party that is responsible for effectively making a future referendum impossible. What I think will happen is that Labour will gain seats from the SNP in Scotland, not from SNP voters, but from Conservative voters that they've been dangling the carrot in front of for the last 3 years. They'll then try and claim that support for independence in Scotland is dropping due to the drop in SNP seats, even if the SNP vote share hasn't gone down at all. They think we're idiots up here.

The entitlement here is staggering. Labour got a sore face in Scotland because they acted in an entitled way. Do people never learn?

[Ozyhibby]

It's idiotic to think there's isnt a huge probability some snp voters will go to Labour, especially as it seems it will help bring Labour to power.

I’m not so sure it will be in the numbers getting predicted now. We still have to go through a campaign where Labour will tell the 50% of Scottish voters they can never have the independence that they want under Labour. Also Sarwar will have to campaign. Just now he is protected in that he rarely gives interviews, when he does he gets soft ball questions and he never shows up in the parliament except for FMQ’s when he has to. He’s not a great performer. Debates might be difficult for him.
If you support Indy and you have Labour spending 6 weeks telling you no chance then it might be difficult to then go vote for them.
Biggest problem for the SNP will be if their voters stay at home. That is the biggest threat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

The entitlement here is staggering. Labour got a sore face in Scotland because they acted in an entitled way. Do people never learn?

I don’t see any entitlement in that post?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I agree that it’s. Pre likely that independence voters will just not vote. Some though will return to vote labour as it’s a realistic route to getting rid of the tories.

Yet, it's not a realistic route for getting rid of the tories whatsoever. Which is one of the major reasons people support independence in the first place. Nobody that seriously wants independence in Scotland is going to vote for Keir Starmer's gang.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I don’t see any entitlement in that post?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There wasn't. I was simply declaring what I believe will happen.

[archie]

There wasn't. I was simply declaring what I believe will happen.

The assumption that no one who voted SNP will vote Labour is, at best complacent and very entitled. That attitude did for Labour in Scotland.

[marinello59]

I agree that it’s. Pre likely that independence voters will just not vote. Some though will return to vote labour as it’s a realistic route to getting rid of the tories.

Of course some SNP supporters will vote for Labour just to get the Tories out. Those Labour voters who have lent their vote to the SNP in order to get Indy, and there are plenty, will be much more likely to just vote Labour this time around. When the reward is getting rid of the Tories now rather than the promise of Indy some time in the future then it’s an easier one to make. I expect to see the SNP put much more in to their attacks on Labour than attacking the Tories as they seem them as a bigger threat to them achieving their ultimate aim. The problem with that is that very few outside of already committed SNP supporters are going to buy any claims that Labour are almost identical to the Tories. It’s going to be interesting though. :greengrin

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The assumption that no one who voted SNP will vote Labour is, at best complacent and very entitled. That attitude did for Labour in Scotland.

Ok then. Some people who voted Labour last time will vote for the SNP. So I guess it will balance itself out then.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Of course some SNP supporters will vote for Labour just to get the Tories out. Those Labour voters who have lent their vote to the SNP in order to get Indy, and there are plenty, will be much more likely to just vote Labour this time around. When the reward is getting rid of the Tories now rather than the promise of Indy some time in the future then it’s an easier one to make. I expect to see the SNP put much more in to their attacks on Labour than attacking the Tories as they seem them as a bigger threat to them achieving their ultimate aim. The problem with that is that very few outside of already committed SNP supporters are going to buy any claims that Labour are almost identical to the Tories. It’s going to be interesting though. :greengrin

Why? People are perfectly capable of doing their own research and arriving to their own well informed conclusions. So it will be obvious to many that Labour are almost identical to the tories.

[archie]

Why? People are perfectly capable of doing their own research and arriving to their own well informed conclusions. So it will be obvious to many that Labour are almost identical to the tories.

On reflection, you have convinced me. Just keep on what you are doing. It will all be fine.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

On reflection, you have convinced me. Just keep on what you are doing. It will all be fine.

Keir Starmer could be caught photocopying the Conservative Manifesto and sticking the world "Labour" on the title of the document and you'd still be on here pretending that they're offering something different. Who do you think you're fooling?

[Smartie]

Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.

I was quite impressed by the way he handled it too.

Does anyone know what it was she was shouting?

[archie]

Keir Starmer could be caught photocopying the Conservative Manifesto and sticking the world "Labour" on the title of the document and you'd still be on here pretending that they're offering something different. Who do you think you're fooling?

What do you base this on?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I was quite impressed by the way he handled it too.

Does anyone know what it was she was shouting?

Apparently she was one of the patients of the NHS Tayside scandal involving Sam Eljamel.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What do you base this on?

Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps it has something to do with Keir Starmer's pro-brexit stance? Or maybe it's his stance against trade unions? Or maybe it's the purging of successfully elected left leaning MPs and Counciliors in the Labour Party? Or perhaps it's his commitment to keeping the tory's anti-protest legislation in place? Or maybe it's his interests and shares in private healthcare? Or his desire to maintain tuition fees in England? Or perhaps it's his backtracking on taxing the wealthiest more? Or his silence over the blocking of devolved matters in Scotland by Westminster? Or allowing people with links to the Orange Order to stand as Councillors in his party? Or turning a blind eye to racism in his party, as long as they lean right enough? Or failing to criticise the tories over their illegal policies over immigration and proposing very similar policies?

Yep. He's a real vote winner in Scotland. Independence supporters are just itching to vote for the newly formed 'Keir Starmer Party'. :rolleyes:

[archie]

Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps it has something to do with Keir Starmer's pro-brexit stance? Or maybe it's his stance against trade unions? Or maybe it's the purging of successfully elected left leaning MPs and Counciliors in the Labour Party? Or perhaps it's his commitment to keeping the tory's anti-protest legislation in place? Or maybe it's his interests and shares in private healthcare? Or his desire to maintain tuition fees in England? Or perhaps it's his backtracking on taxing the wealthiest more? Or his silence over the blocking of devolved matters in Scotland by Westminster? Or allowing people with links to the Orange Order to stand as Councillors in his party? Or turning a blind eye to racism in his party, as long as they lean right enough? Or failing to criticise the tories over their illegal policies over immigration and proposing very similar policies?

Yep. He's a real vote winner in Scotland. Independence supporters are just itching to vote for the newly formed 'Keir Starmer Party'. :rolleyes:

I think you're on to something here. If you look at Keir Starmer's register of interests there are no shareholdings at all https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/230612/starmer_keir.htm

So either a) you have discovered secret shareholdings and you are in a position to blow this wide open or b) you're making things up. If it's b) then it invalidates everything you have said in your post.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think you're on to something here. If you look at Keir Starmer's register of interests there are no shareholdings at all https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/230612/starmer_keir.htm

So either a) you have discovered secret shareholdings and you are in a position to blow this wide open or b) you're making things up. If it's b) then it invalidates everything you have said in your post.

Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

[archie]

Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

Wow - that's the story now - he's taking cash bribes. Blow that story open.

Here's a pro tip. No matter how strong your arguments are, they will be tainted if you just make things up.

Imagine you were going for the job as a chief finance officer of a big company. No matter how strong your CV was, the fraud conviction would invalidate everything else.

Or alternatively, just keep on doing what you are doing.

[Mibbes Aye]

Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.

I thought it was good of him to go over as well. Genuinely. He sort of undermined it a bit by being so handsy with her though, he was like a flailing octopus 😀

[Mibbes Aye]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.

Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the Britnats wouldn't be happy with this fact, you know, the ones who think Britain is somehow a country

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347416692_818471086518426_3954568442551814056_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_u9H1f-XVFMAX-j1DHr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBiErGWlrelrnFhbwvqlPq8SCMIYsL6imNLBwWVVNbv ig&oe=649E0DDD

[marinello59]

Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

I’m not actually a 100% sure what he meant. Hopefully he knows himself. :greengrin

[archie]

the Britnats wouldn't be happy with this fact, you know, the ones who think Britain is somehow a country

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347416692_818471086518426_3954568442551814056_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_u9H1f-XVFMAX-j1DHr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBiErGWlrelrnFhbwvqlPq8SCMIYsL6imNLBwWVVNbv ig&oe=649E0DDD

OMG - you better let the UN, G7 IMF etc know.

[Andy Bee]

Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

That's a wee bit hypocritical considering both Labour and Tories are denying a Sec 30. Personally I think it's a good idea, the outcome will probably be the same in that the UKG will probably deny any credence to it if the SNP win but at least it's another avenue to explore. The manifesto will be interesting if it's based on what an Independent Scotland could be like i.e. pensions etc.

If they can get the point across that a majority for SNP will start a process rather than what the MSM are trying to peddle about same old same old ask for Sec 30, referendum blah then Labour are in trouble in Scotland.

*Edit* My take is that it's the majority of seats.

[Ozyhibby]

Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

Isn’t that how we run the UK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Isn’t that how we run the UK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. A system that even Labour have no interest in changing. A system that will benefit Keir Starmer in Scotland in the next election when they sweep up the tory vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's a wee bit hypocritical considering both Labour and Tories are denying a Sec 30. Personally I think it's a good idea, the outcome will probably be the same in that the UKG will probably deny any credence to it if the SNP win but at least it's another avenue to explore. The manifesto will be interesting if it's based on what an Independent Scotland could be like i.e. pensions etc.

If they can get the point across that a majority for SNP will start a process rather than what the MSM are trying to peddle about same old same old ask for Sec 30, referendum blah then Labour are in trouble in Scotland.

*Edit* My take is that it's the majority of seats.

A majority is certainly better than a plurality but you are right, it won’t be seen as legitimate.

I suspect they have to do something about what an independent Scotland might look like, the challenge is that the biggest part, as in 2014, is surely making an economic case that at the very least says things won’t be worse than they are now. And that is a very low bar! But to do that they have to describe how the sums add up and that was a big problem last time.

Regardless of that, they have to put a manifesto forward for what they would do in government, here and now. If they can’t articulate a position on health, education, housing, justice, business, local government etc etc they would rightly be toast. I think they can articulate a position - it is one that I have had cause for disagreement with but I have given them credit in the past for good policy ideas. Then it is over to the public.

They are running against political gravity though. It caught up with the Tories in 64 and 97, caught up with Labour in 2010 and obviously in Scotland. It is inescapable and will catch them before long.

I’m not in favour of separation/independence/leaving the union whatever you want to call it. But if I had any involvement in strategising for it I would have decoupled it from a political party a long time back. Devolution arose from cross-party and no-party support. If independence is to succeed then so must it, I suspect.

[Jack]

Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

[archie]

The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

[archie]

If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

[Mibbes Aye]

Isn’t that how we run the UK?


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It’s not how we left the EU

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

It's already been established that Starmer has raked in more than £157,000 from private healthcare links - https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/23568478.much-labour-tory-mps-get-private-health-firms/

If your argument is that these aren't bribes, then what do you think they are?

[Mibbes Aye]

If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

Which private healthcare firms?

[archie]

It's already been established that Starmer has raked in more than £157,000 from private healthcare links - https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/23568478.much-labour-tory-mps-get-private-health-firms/

If your argument is that these aren't bribes, then what do you think they are?

The article is very vague. It doesn't allege bribes. It's extremely fuzzy about the Starmer numbers.Do you know where they come from and what they were for?

[Mibbes Aye]

The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

Meet the EveryDoctor team

https://www.everydoctor.org.uk/team

The person who founded and runs it doesn’t even have a licence to practice.

[archie]

Meet the EveryDoctor team

https://www.everydoctor.org.uk/team

The person who founded and runs it doesn’t even have a licence to practice.

I'm very reluctant to diss anyone working to defend the NHS, but this whole story is very odd.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm very reluctant to diss anyone working to defend the NHS, but this whole story is very odd.

Very odd. Some of the language in that link is very odd too.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not how we left the EU

But it was how we got a referendum.


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[He's here!]

The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic sums up his carefully vague speech. Meet the new plan, same as the old plan - and destined to be even more ineffectual.

[cabbageandribs1875]

well said this SNHS worker, wasnonowYES on Twitter: "Aye @jackiebmsp think on before slagging Scottish workers, shame on you ��" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/proscot4indy/status/1672737558848053249) it's absolutely draining the constant running down of our health service, or ANYTHING else the SG do for that matter, you can see the usual very small group/trio on this part of the forum do the exact same, over every thread to do with THIS country, constantly running down absolutely anything/everything to do with the SG/SNP/independence it's so freakin draining they just simply do not have one decent thing to say about Scotland, not once will we see them talk up Scotland, NEVER

Morag Mcdonald on Twitter: "@ScottishLabour I work in the NHS and I am so ****ing sick of you telling me my work and my service is in chaos. The effect on my mental health of your constant denigration of the SNHS cannot be understated." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Mo_ChridheBeag/status/1672532802200391681)


maybe one of them should start a thread on just exactly why we are better in an unequal union with England rather than an equal union with Europe, go on tell us the positives but no one will because they can't, they're asked often enough but nope they can't/won't answer and besides they'd far rather run down everything Scottish and everything to do with Scotland on threads like this one, over and over again.

[147lothian]

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic sums up his carefully vague speech. Meet the new plan, same as the old plan - and destined to be even more ineffectual.

The reason I find Humza Yousaf an ineffectual and insincere person to campaign for another referendum is because he is the continuity First Minister while his predecessors who he doesn't distance himself from Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell are still under investigation for the missing £600,000 of indyfer2 funds.

[Mibbes Aye]

But it was how we got a referendum.


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Then the answer is clear. You want a party who can win at U.K. level, with a track record of delivering further autonomy and a plan to extend devolution even further.

Vote Labour. Simples.

[Ozyhibby]

Then the answer is clear. You want a party who can win at U.K. level, with a track record of delivering further autonomy and a plan to extend devolution even further.

Vote Labour. Simples.

Yip, all we need is for a majority of English mp’s to vote for Scotland to have a referendum.[emoji106]


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[Mibbes Aye]

well said this SNHS worker, wasnonowYES on Twitter: "Aye @jackiebmsp think on before slagging Scottish workers, shame on you ��" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/proscot4indy/status/1672737558848053249) it's absolutely draining the constant running down of our health service, or ANYTHING else the SG do for that matter, you can see the usual very small group/trio on this part of the forum do the exact same, over every thread to do with THIS country, constantly running down absolutely anything/everything to do with the SG/SNP/independence it's so freakin draining they just simply do not have one decent thing to say about Scotland, not once will we see them talk up Scotland, NEVER

Morag Mcdonald on Twitter: "@ScottishLabour I work in the NHS and I am so ****ing sick of you telling me my work and my service is in chaos. The effect on my mental health of your constant denigration of the SNHS cannot be understated." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Mo_ChridheBeag/status/1672532802200391681)


maybe one of them should start a thread on just exactly why we are better in an unequal union with England rather than an equal union with Europe, go on tell us the positives but no one will because they can't, they're asked often enough but nope they can't/won't answer and besides they'd far rather run down everything Scottish and everything to do with Scotland on threads like this one, over and over again.

And breathe. I’m not going to try and answer every point you made in one post. Some I don’t recognise for a fact. But to pick out one - “an equal Union with Europe”. The EU isn’t that equal. France and Germany pretty much hold sway, with Italy, Poland and Spain next. An independent Scotland, especially trying to take up the Euro and given the fiscal situation we would be in, would be basically subservient to what the European Central Bank told us to do. IMO.

The position we held in the EU was because of the strength of the U.K. economy and because we were a relatively large player in global geopolitics - permanent seat on the Security Council, G7 etc etc. We wouldn’t have that post-independence.

That’s cold facts. It’s not running Scotland down.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yip, all we need is for a majority of English mp’s to vote for Scotland to have a referendum.[emoji106]


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They are U.K. MPs. Some Scottish MPs would probably vote against a referendum.

Continually making our it is the perfidious English at play is just the sort of division-stoking grievance-laden rancour that puts people off and denies you your 50+1 let alone your sustained 60. Trust me.

[archie]

well said this SNHS worker, wasnonowYES on Twitter: "Aye @jackiebmsp think on before slagging Scottish workers, shame on you ��" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/proscot4indy/status/1672737558848053249) it's absolutely draining the constant running down of our health service, or ANYTHING else the SG do for that matter, you can see the usual very small group/trio on this part of the forum do the exact same, over every thread to do with THIS country, constantly running down absolutely anything/everything to do with the SG/SNP/independence it's so freakin draining they just simply do not have one decent thing to say about Scotland, not once will we see them talk up Scotland, NEVER

Morag Mcdonald on Twitter: "@ScottishLabour I work in the NHS and I am so ****ing sick of you telling me my work and my service is in chaos. The effect on my mental health of your constant denigration of the SNHS cannot be understated." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Mo_ChridheBeag/status/1672532802200391681)


maybe one of them should start a thread on just exactly why we are better in an unequal union with England rather than an equal union with Europe, go on tell us the positives but no one will because they can't, they're asked often enough but nope they can't/won't answer and besides they'd far rather run down everything Scottish and everything to do with Scotland on threads like this one, over and over again.

So when people are being failed we should just shut up? Nobody's criticising the NHS or the workers. But are you saying that the government can't be criticised because it's talking Scotland down? Really? Get off your knees man!

[Callum_62]

They are U.K. MPs. Some Scottish MPs would probably vote against a referendum.

Continually making our it is the perfidious English at play is just the sort of division-stoking grievance-laden rancour that puts people off and denies you your 50+1 let alone your sustained 60. Trust me.Some might but you can't deny that all MPs bar the English could vote 100 percent yes to allow a vote but we would still be reliant on the English MPs votes to allow it to happen

It's what I see as a farcical situation of the union we are in

Scotland, Wales and NI combined have 117 MPs in Westminster

England have 543

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[Mibbes Aye]

Some might but you can't deny that all MPs bar the English could vote 100 percent yes to allow a vote but we would still be reliant on the English MPs votes to allow it to happen

It's what I see as a farcical situation of the union we are in

Scotland, Wales and NI combined have 117 MPs in Westminster

England have 543

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Why does it have to be decided on national lines? That’s ludicrous. Some Scottish MPs would vote against a referendum, some non-Scots MPs would vote for a referendum. Otherwise how did the devolution legislation get to the referendum stage in 1979 and 2014?

And if democracy is about power to the people, why is it that there are more Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs as a % of population than English ones? But that’s another story.

[Hibrandenburg]

And breathe. I’m not going to try and answer every point you made in one post. Some I don’t recognise for a fact. But to pick out one - “an equal Union with Europe”. The EU isn’t that equal. France and Germany pretty much hold sway, with Italy, Poland and Spain next. An independent Scotland, especially trying to take up the Euro and given the fiscal situation we would be in, would be basically subservient to what the European Central Bank told us to do. IMO.

The position we held in the EU was because of the strength of the U.K. economy and because we were a relatively large player in global geopolitics - permanent seat on the Security Council, G7 etc etc. We wouldn’t have that post-independence.

That’s cold facts. It’s not running Scotland down.

If an independent Scotland wanted a vote to leave the EU, would it have to ask Brussels for permission?

[lapsedhibee]

constantly running down absolutely anything/everything to do with the SG/SNP/independence it's so freakin draining they just simply do not have one decent thing to say about Scotland, not once will we see them talk up Scotland, NEVER

Morag Mcdonald on Twitter: "@ScottishLabour I work in the NHS and I am so ****ing sick of you telling me my work and my service is in chaos. The effect on my mental health of your constant denigration of the SNHS cannot be understated." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Mo_ChridheBeag/status/1672532802200391681)

A pedant writes

Morag Mcdonald is quite wrong. The effect on her mental health can easily be understated. What she meant was that it cannot be overstated. Can only assume that she passed through the Scottish Education system during that awful, awful period when Sturgeon was SNP Shadow Education Minister. :agree:

[Callum_62]

Why does it have to be decided on national lines? That’s ludicrous. Some Scottish MPs would vote against a referendum, some non-Scots MPs would vote for a referendum. Otherwise how did the devolution legislation get to the referendum stage in 1979 and 2014?

And if democracy is about power to the people, why is it that there are more Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs as a % of population than English ones? But that’s another story.

It could be argued that independence for 1 country in the union (yes we are still 4 countries) is detrimental to the others

In which case talking about it along national lines is perfectly legitimate

The fact is, for Scotland to be allowed to have a say in its future regarding independence it requires a huge amount of English MPs to allow it - regardless how anyone else votes

I don't know why you are diverting with the percentage of MPs etc - the above is a straight, unarguable fact

2014 started at a place so low in terms of a yes vote its quite an easy argument to make that the folk approving it seen that side as having very little chance to win it

Crazy when you say 2014 though, thats nearly a decade ago (likely be more than a decade by the time the vote happened even if it was approved this week) - still surprises me that folk talk about it like it was last year in terms of being allowed another say


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[Ozyhibby]

I see Prince William has taken up politics. All perfectly normal in a democracy.[emoji849]


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

So when people are being failed we should just shut up? Nobody's criticising the NHS or the workers. But are you saying that the government can't be criticised because it's talking Scotland down? Really? Get off your knees man!

The UK is failing almost everyone. But it's easy to turn a blind eye to the rest of the UK and simply blame the devolved parliament, when you're all for maintaining the UK at all costs. And it really is at all costs.

[danhibees1875]

I see Prince William has taken up politics. All perfectly normal in a democracy.[emoji849]


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Has he? :confused:

[archie]

The UK is failing almost everyone. But it's easy to turn a blind eye to the rest of the UK and simply blame the devolved parliament, when you're all for maintaining the UK at all costs. And it really is at all costs.

Except I don't turn a blind eye to Westminster. It is possible to be critical of both parliaments you know.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Except I don't turn a blind eye to Westminster. It is possible to be critical of both parliaments you know.

It's also possible to recognize that there are far reaching consequences for Scotland as part of the UK, through no fault of it's own and it's not always as simple as something being devolved.

[archie]

It's also possible to recognize that there are far reaching consequences for Scotland as part of the UK, through no fault of it's own and it's not always as simple as something being devolved.

Agreed. But it is possible to be critical of both governments. Would you agree?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Agreed. But it is possible to be critical of both governments. Would you agree?

Being critical of government is necessary and nothing new. But I won't criticise one government for problems created by another.

[Berwickhibby]

Has he? :confused:

He is using his position to try and eradicate homelessness starting with 6 areas in the country….what a b@s tard :wink:

[archie]

Being critical of government is necessary and nothing new. But I won't criticise one government for problems created by another.

So are all problems with the Scottish Government created by Westminster?

[Since90+2]

If an independent Scotland wanted a vote to leave the EU, would it have to ask Brussels for permission?

Very well said.

[archie]

If an independent Scotland wanted a vote to leave the EU, would it have to ask Brussels for permission?

The EU isn't a unitary state. The UK is.

[Just Alf]

Agreed. But it is possible to be critical of both governments. Would you agree?Yup agreed, issue is that some seem incapable of doing it, .... they're only critical on either the SNP/indy thread or the Tories one but not on both.

[Ozyhibby]

He is using his position to try and eradicate homelessness starting with 6 areas in the country….what a b@s tard :wink:

Unless he’s using his own money (fat chance ) to do it then he should keep out of politics no matter the goal.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Yup agreed, issue is that some seem incapable of doing it, .... they're only critical on either the SNP/indy thread or the Tories one but not on both.

Criticizing both Government's is all well and good. But sometimes people create false equivalences to give the impression of balance, when balance doesn't apply to a particular situation.

[Berwickhibby]

Unless he’s using his own money (fat chance ) to do it then he should keep out of politics no matter the goal.


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He has put £3m of his own money in so far …. And imho he and his charity are trying to combat a social issue, he is not on a soap box spouting politics.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

He has put £3m of his own money in so far …. And imho he and his charity are trying to combat a social issue, he is not on a soap box spouting politics.

Well we don't all have £3m. A soap box is all some of us mere peasants have.

[Rumble de Thump]

Except I don't turn a blind eye to Westminster. It is possible to be critical of both parliaments you know.

Your performance on various threads tells a very different story.

[DaveF]

He has put £3m of his own money in so far …. And imho he and his charity are trying to combat a social issue, he is not on a soap box spouting politics.

£3m of his money. Which is really our money, gifted to prop up his family, but hey he's trying to help the peasants....

[archie]

Your performance on various threads tells a very different story.

You are entitled to your view, of course. I would add that there aren't really fanatical Tories on the Holy Ground, so you don't really get people defending the UK Government. Whereas that's not the same for the Scottish Government, so that's where the disagreement tends to be.

[Berwickhibby]

[QUOTE=DaveF;7380532]£3m of his money. Which is really our money, gifted to prop up his family, but hey he's trying to help the peasants....[/

In terms of what they bring to the economy, valuation consultancy group, Brand Finance, estimated that the monarchy's helped boost the economy with a gross uplift of £1.76billion in the year 2021/22.8 May 2023

Royal purse £86m

[cabbageandribs1875]

Typica State TV tactics, actually no, they don't normally apologise after they've planted the seed





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzjP0W9WAAAKSxA?format=jpg&name=large

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Typica State TV tactics, actually no, they don't normally apologise after they've planted the seed





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzjP0W9WAAAKSxA?format=jpg&name=large

They tell a lie when they know millions of people are watching. Then they tuck their "apology" away on their website that less than a thousand will see.

[Hibrandenburg]

The EU isn't a unitary state. The UK is.

That's clear enough. So Scotland is not an equal partner in the United Kingdom?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That's clear enough. So Scotland is not an equal partner in the United Kingdom?

They'll say that our vote is equal to the vote of somebody south of the border.


But only when we're allowed to have that vote and as long as what we're voting for passes the Westminster acceptance check.

[cabbageandribs1875]

They tell a lie when they know millions of people are watching. Then they tuck their "apology" away on their website that less than a thousand will see.



the british press in Scotland has done that for many years, plant the seed with big bold headlines then two/three days later issue an apology at the bottom of page 30+ in one of the smallest print sizes

job done

[SickBoy32]

That's clear enough. So Scotland is not an equal partner in the United Kingdom?

Quite frankly, anyone still arguing that we're an equal partner in the UK needs to give their heid a wobble

[archie]

That's clear enough. So Scotland is not an equal partner in the United Kingdom?

It's a unitary state, not a confederation of partners.

[Since90+2]

Quite frankly, anyone still arguing that we're an equal partner in the UK needs to give their heid a wobble

As you can see on this thread, unionists are now basically saying Scotland effectively doesn't exist. That tells you all you need to know about the sort of people you are debating with.

[WeeRussell]

You are entitled to your view, of course. I would add that there aren't really fanatical Tories on the Holy Ground, so you don't really get people defending the UK Government.

Admittedly I (deliberately) spend a lot less time reading threads on the HG these days so maybe things have changed.

Otherwise, are you sure about that?

[cabbageandribs1875]

i'm very surprised the Daily Record would run this

Record Politics on Twitter: "Brexit has had a disastrous impact on Scotland. The country is still dealing with the result of the 2016 referendum. The Record has this week examined the impact in our Broken Brexit series. Thread 🧵" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Record_Politics/status/1672180505578463232?t=3uazcowx1t3nizeeii3uiA&s=19&fbclid=IwAR02nkPqLpD3H73-z5GK1Vs9wZMIF-ZURIJ86lvuq8gnSpAcI5xbvERdZFc)

[archie]

As you can see on this thread, unionists are now basically saying Scotland effectively doesn't exist. That tells you all you need to know about the sort of people you are debating with.

That's a startling interpretation. Who has said that? And what do you think it says about the 'sort of people you are debating with'.?

[archie]

That's clear enough. So Scotland is not an equal partner in the United Kingdom?

It's part of the UK. Is Brandenburg an equal partner in Germany?

[Since90+2]

That's a startling interpretation. Who has said that? And what do you think it says about the 'sort of people you are debating with'.?

Do you believe that as a nation, Scotland should be able to choose how and when it decides if it becomes independent?

A simple yes or no is what I'm looking for.

[archie]

Admittedly I (deliberately) spend a lot less time reading threads on the HG these days so maybe things have changed.

Otherwise, are you sure about that?

Obviously I don't know the political make up of posters on the Holy Ground. But I don't see many people coming on here to proactively defend the Tories (or even reactively). The Tory threads tend to be of the 'is that no terrible' style. And often it is. But I personally don't contribute where I would simply be adding to an echo chamber.

I suppose the other side of that is how much people see things through the constitutional prism. But if you can look beyond that I think there is a fair spread of left and right views. I often engage with independence supporters here who I would charactarise to the right of me and some to the left of me, simply based on their postings.

[archie]

Do you believe that as a nation, Scotland should be able to choose how and when it decides if it becomes independent?

A simple yes or no is what I'm looking for.

If you want a yes or no answer then you'll need to clarify some things about your framing.

Firstly, what do you mean by nation?

Secondly, do you believe the UK is a unitary state

[Since90+2]

If you want a yes or no answer then you'll need to clarify some things about your framing.

Firstly, what do you mean by nation?

Secondly, do you believe the UK is a unitary state

I'll take that as a no then. Ask most people if they think Scotland is nation/country they'd be able to answer.

The fact that you can't, or probably more likely won't, says quite a lot frankly.

[archie]

I'll take that as a no then. Ask most people if they think Scotland is nation/country they'd be able to answer.

The fact that you can't, or probably more likely won't, says quite a lot frankly.

Wait a minute. You ask me a question which is worded in a way which is open to interpretation. I ask you to clarify what you mean and add a question of my own, which would also clarify your question. You don't respond to the request for clarification or my question and then take a gratuitous swipe. What do you hope to achieve with this approach?

[WeeRussell]

Do you believe that as a nation, Scotland should be able to choose how and when it decides if it becomes independent?

A simple yes or no is what I'm looking for.

Just in case it helps as an example, at all, my response would be a very straightforward and emphatic ‘yes’.

When you put it like that it’s really quite amazing the position we’re in and baffling that anyone, Scottish or otherwise, could do anything but give a simple yes to that particular question.

[archie]

Just in case it helps as an example, at all, my response would be a very straightforward and emphatic ‘yes’.

When you put it like that it’s really quite amazing the position we’re in and baffling that anyone, Scottish or otherwise, could do anything but give a simple yes to that particular question.

Ok - can you define what you mean by 'nation'?

[Since90+2]

Ok - can you define what you mean by 'nation'?

Ok, if it helps you out here, change it to country.

Whenever you are abroad and someone says to you "what country are you from?" Do you answer or do you go into a spiel about asking them to define what is a country.

My hunch is you would just answer. The fact it doesn't help your debate here means you come up with a meaningless response.

It's a fairly straightforward question that 99% of people would freely answer. Is Scotland a country or not?

[archie]

Ok, if it helps you out here, change it to country.

Whenever you are abroad and someone says to you "what country are you from?" Do you answer or do you go into a spiel about asking them to define what is a country.

My hunch is you would just answer. The fact it doesn't help your debate here means you come up with a meaningless response.

It's a fairly straightforward question that 99% of people would freely answer. Is Scotland a country or not?

That does help actually. Scotland is part of a unitary state. If you go to the UN, G7, WHO etc. You won't see Scotland because it's not a country. Because these terms have precise definitions, it's important that they are used properly.

When I'm abroad I say I'm from Scotland. But when people ask me that they aren't deliberately using sloppy language to try and make a political point. Which, I suspect, is why you evaded my points of clarification.

[Since90+2]

When I'm abroad I say I'm from Scotland.

Got there eventually didn't we, Archie?

[archie]

Got there eventually didn't we, Archie?

Not really as that wasn't your question.

[Mibbes Aye]

If an independent Scotland wanted a vote to leave the EU, would it have to ask Brussels for permission?

Assuming an independent Scotland got into the EU?

Probably not, unless something was written into its conditions of entry or it had signed up to something while a member.

Is this the point where you overreach by trying to make a comparison to Scotland and the UK?

[Hibrandenburg]

It's part of the UK. Is Brandenburg an equal partner in Germany?

In the German Federation there are 16 states who have between 3 and 6 votes in the Bundesrat, no single state commands enough power to overrule the rest. So yes, it is an equal partner to an extent and can influence decision making in a similar way to all other states. The EU is not that different. In the UK England gets what England wants, even if all the other so called partners disagree.

[lapsedhibee]

That does help actually. Scotland is part of a unitary state. If you go to the UN, G7, WHO etc. You won't see Scotland because it's not a country. Because these terms have precise definitions, it's important that they are used properly.

When I'm abroad I say I'm from Scotland. But when people ask me that they aren't deliberately using sloppy language to try and make a political point. Which, I suspect, is why you evaded my points of clarification.

If every time a forrin asks you what country you're from you say Scotland, don't you feel bad about persistently misleading forrins into thinking that Scotland is a country? :dunno:

[archie]

In the German Federation there are 16 states who have between 3 and 6 votes in the Bundesrat, no single state commands enough power to overrule the rest. So yes, it is an equal partner to an extent and can influence decision making in a similar way to all other states. The EU is not that different. In the UK England gets what England wants, even if all the other so called partners disagree.

But the states don't have a right to seceed.

On a more positive note, is there something in that model that could be applied in some way to a replacement for the House of Lords?

[archie]

If every time a forrin asks you what country you're from you say Scotland, don't you feel bad about persistently misleading forrins into thinking that Scotland is a country? :dunno:

I don't think people abroad are as locked into the constitutional debate as you are. I do get questions about independence, but I also get questions about Nessie.

I got a lot of questions about Brexit.

I don't think it's misleading because 'country' is used in a very loose way. What would you define 'country' as?

[Hibrandenburg]

But the states don't have a right to seceed.

On a more positive note, is there something in that model that could be applied in some way to a replacement for the House of Lords?

I've always said a Federal system would dilute the hunger for autonomy. If the UK decentralised power away from Westminster to the regions, this thread would likely have run out of fuel. That will never be on the table though.

[archie]

I've always said a Federal system would dilute the hunger for autonomy. If the UK decentralised power away from Westminster to the regions, this thread would likely have run out of fuel. That will never be on the table though.

I think there is an opportunity here, but I don't think the window will be open that long. I think a number of things have happened over the last couple of years that have paved the way for reform of the HoL. I think the Johnson resignation honours disgusted people. I think Labour need to do something on this issue and have the motivation. I also think, in a funny way, the mood of the country changed with the death of the Queen. Whatever you think of King Charles, I don't think even the most ardent royalist views him in the same way as they did the queen. So changing the old system might get less pushback than at one time.

I know people here are cynical about Labour (or politically motivated to diss them). But I do think there is an opportunity here. Interestingly, when I posted some thoughts on replacing the HoL it got very little discussion. I took that to be that many here don't care as they want independence. Also some don't want to engage because they just want a stick to beat Labour. But maybe it's just because it's hard. We need to say more than just 'an elected second chamber'. There's much more to it than that. To go back to my original question, I do wonder how (and if) the devolved administrations could be part of a new second chamber. But it's not easy.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think people abroad are as locked into the constitutional debate as you are. I do get questions about independence, but I also get questions about Nessie.

I got a lot of questions about Brexit.

I don't think it's misleading because 'country' is used in a very loose way. What would you define 'country' as?

I'm with Ludwig on this one.

‘In most cases, the meaning of a word is its use’, Wittgenstein claimed, in perhaps the most famous passage in the Investigations. It ain’t what you say, it’s the way that you say it, and the context in which you say it. Words are how you use them.

[archie]

I'm with Ludwig on this one.

‘In most cases, the meaning of a word is its use’, Wittgenstein claimed, in perhaps the most famous passage in the Investigations. It ain’t what you say, it’s the way that you say it, and the context in which you say it. Words are how you use them.

Interesting that you go for a contested philosophical definition! Didn't see that coming. Where that falls down is that if 'the game' has to have a commonly understood meaning, then what if people don't share that? That can be a cultural thing, but it is often abused by politicians.

I doubt that you will find a politician in the world who doen't support fairness. But until you unpack what it means and drill into the detail it's meaningless. 'Let's have fairer taxes'. But what is that? More taxes, more tax for higher earners, less taxes, flat rate taxes? Was the poll tax fairer than the council tax. Discuss!

I absolutely get the point about context. I happen to think the context here is to create a political framing about the word 'country' about developing a political narrative. But while country or nation might have a loose contextual use, they also have a precise meaning. And I do think that's important, no matter how unpopular that makes me here!

[danhibees1875]

He has put £3m of his own money in so far …. And imho he and his charity are trying to combat a social issue, he is not on a soap box spouting politics.

It sounds like its not his own money, it's from the PoW charity foundation.

I'm still not sure how it's him getting into politics though, or indeed how it relates to Scottish independence, or even how it's a negative thing for someone to help end homelessness... :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Interesting that you go for a contested philosophical definition! Didn't see that coming. Where that falls down is that if 'the game' has to have a commonly understood meaning, then what if people don't share that? That can be a cultural thing, but it is often abused by politicians.

I doubt that you will find a politician in the world who doen't support fairness. But until you unpack what it means and drill into the detail it's meaningless. 'Let's have fairer taxes'. But what is that? More taxes, more tax for higher earners, less taxes, flat rate taxes? Was the poll tax fairer than the council tax. Discuss!

I absolutely get the point about context. I happen to think the context here is to create a political framing about the word 'country' about developing a political narrative. But while country or nation might have a loose contextual use, they also have a precise meaning. And I do think that's important, no matter how unpopular that makes me here!

Be consistent. When someone asks you what country you're from, say "I'm from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, northern branch."

Every time you answer "Scotland" in your belief that the questioner isn't obsessed with constitutional issues, you're playing your small part in defining Scotland as a country.

[Berwickhibby]

It sounds like its not his own money, it's from the PoW charity foundation.

I'm still not sure how it's him getting into politics though, or indeed how it relates to Scottish independence, or even how it's a negative thing for someone to help end homelessness... :greengrin

Me neither that’s why I responded to the original post.

[archie]

Be consistent. When someone asks you what country you're from, say "I'm from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, northern branch."

Every time you answer "Scotland" in your belief that the questioner isn't obsessed with constitutional issues, you're playing your small part in defining Scotland as a country.

Yo ho ho! People don't tend to ask what country are you from. So it's not framing it as you suggest. It's either 'where are you from' or, oddly, 'are you from Ireland'?

I also think people are less likely these days to ask what country someone is from, given the potential to offend.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think there is an opportunity here, but I don't think the window will be open that long. I think a number of things have happened over the last couple of years that have paved the way for reform of the HoL. I think the Johnson resignation honours disgusted people. I think Labour need to do something on this issue and have the motivation. I also think, in a funny way, the mood of the country changed with the death of the Queen. Whatever you think of King Charles, I don't think even the most ardent royalist views him in the same way as they did the queen. So changing the old system might get less pushback than at one time.

I know people here are cynical about Labour (or politically motivated to diss them). But I do think there is an opportunity here. Interestingly, when I posted some thoughts on replacing the HoL it got very little discussion. I took that to be that many here don't care as they want independence. Also some don't want to engage because they just want a stick to beat Labour. But maybe it's just because it's hard. We need to say more than just 'an elected second chamber'. There's much more to it than that. To go back to my original question, I do wonder how (and if) the devolved administrations could be part of a new second chamber. But it's not easy.

Why would Labour want to demolish something they use to bribe people to do their bidding.

[marinello59]

It sounds like its not his own money, it's from the PoW charity foundation.

I'm still not sure how it's him getting into politics though, or indeed how it relates to Scottish independence, or even how it's a negative thing for someone to help end homelessness... :greengrin

:agree:

[He's here!]

It sounds like its not his own money, it's from the PoW charity foundation.

I'm still not sure how it's him getting into politics though, or indeed how it relates to Scottish independence, or even how it's a negative thing for someone to help end homelessness... :greengrin

If anything he'll have more cut-through than politicians. He's popular with the public for one thing and has a long-standing connection to this issue via his mother's work. Watching his launch event in Bournemouth yesterday you could see he has an easy and engaging manner that people were responding to.

[JohnM1875]

Yo ho ho! People don't tend to ask what country are you from. So it's not framing it as you suggest. It's either 'where are you from' or, oddly, 'are you from Ireland'?

I also think people are less likely these days to ask what country someone is from, given the potential to offend.

I might have completely misunderstood your point, so sorry in advance if I have. But what do you think people are meaning when they say 'where are you from?'

I used to work in a clothes shop on the Royal Mile when I was younger. So I asked customers that dozens of times a day. Each time I absolutely meant what country are you from.

[archie]

Why would Labour want to demolish something they use to bribe people to do their bidding.

Because it needs to change.

[archie]

I might have completely misunderstood your point, so sorry in advance if I have. But what do you think people are meaning when they say 'where are you from?'

I used to work in a clothes shop on the Royal Mile when I was younger. So I asked customers that dozens of times a day. Each time I absolutely meant what country are you from.

This was the tail end of a discussion about what country or nation meant.

[JohnM1875]

This was the tail end of a discussion about what country or nation meant.

Still don't get it, sorry. Surely you've been abroad, got chatting to the locals and they've asked where you're from before? If so, how do you answer? Or equally if you've asked a tourist where there from what do you mean when asking them?

[lapsedhibee]

Still don't get it, sorry. Surely you've been abroad, got chatting to the locals and they've asked where you're from before? If so, how do you answer? Or equally if you've asked a tourist where there from what do you mean when asking them?

You'll get it easily enough, as soon as you accept that Scotland isn't a country.

[marinello59]

Be consistent. When someone asks you what country you're from, say "I'm from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, northern branch."

Every time you answer "Scotland" in your belief that the questioner isn't obsessed with constitutional issues, you're playing your small part in defining Scotland as a country.

I’m actually scratching my head here and wondering why it matters at all how any of us choose to answer that question.

[Jack]

When asked which country do people answer Scotland to distance themselves from the stupid English people who voted for Brexit*, or the union Jack shorts wearing little Englanders that rampage through European resorts in the summer? Or both?

* I very much get the impression European people think voting for Brexit was an incredibly stupid thing to do.

[JohnM1875]

You'll get it easily enough, as soon as you accept that Scotland isn't a country.

Fair enough. So what would you answer if someone did ask what country are you from? Genuinely interested.

[Hibrandenburg]

Because it needs to change.

You're damn right it does, but Labour are an establishment party, occasionally they get their shot at ruling the roost, why would they want to change that?

I'm yearning to vote for a progressive left leaning party, but 🇬🇧 Labour aren't that. Scottish Labour could distance themselves from Party HQ in Westminster but they won’t or can't.

[lapsedhibee]

I’m actually scratching my head here and wondering why it matters at all how any of us choose to answer that question.
If you believe that the country you live in is UK, answer UK.
If you believe that the country you live in is Scotland, answer Scotland.
The head scratching bit is answering Scotland and simultaneously arguing on a messageboard that Scotland isn't a country because the UK is a unitary state.

[lapsedhibee]

Fair enough. So what would you answer if someone did ask what country are you from? Genuinely interested.

Me, Scotland. I think it's a country. I've never met anyone in real life who doesn't.

[Stairway 2 7]

Groundhog day the same argument with the same words from the same posters as last year and the year before. My fear is its be the same argument here in 10 years. The tactic isn't working the dial moves up and down a couple of percent every few months but something has to change.

I don't thinking verbally smashing each other is going to win over voters. The simple fact is 50% don't want independence just now. Saying they are idiots, tories, brexit lovers, unscottish or subservient might make you feel good but I'm sure it harms independence chances. 90% of snp voters and msps efforts should be on winning the undecided and getting independence

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Groundhog day the same argument with the same words from the same posters as last year and the year before. My fear is its be the same argument here in 10 years. The tactic isn't working the dial moves up and down a couple of percent every few months but something has to change.

I don't thinking verbally smashing each other is going to win over voters. The simple fact is 50% don't want independence just now. Saying they are idiots, tories, brexit lovers, unscottish or subservient might make you feel good but I'm sure it harms independence chances. 90% of snp voters and msps efforts should be on winning the undecided and getting independence

It may move up and down a few percentage points here and there. But overall over time, it has been heading in one direction. Perhaps it's time that unionists realized that they're very much on the defensive now and they should start coming up with ways to argue why Scotland should remain part of an institution that is clearly one of the most undemocratic in the developed world. They won't of course, because they can't. That's why they've spent the last decade demanding that the other side make all of the arguments.

[Stairway 2 7]

It may move up and down a few percentage points here and there. But overall over time, it has been heading in one direction. Perhaps it's time that unionists realized that they're very much on the defensive now and they should start coming up with ways to argue why Scotland should remain part of an institution that is clearly one of the most undemocratic in the developed world. They won't of course, because they can't. That's why they've spent the last decade demanding that the other side make all of the arguments.

Yes your right, it's undeniably went towards a no majority in the last 12 months. Some polls differ, but something like 13 out of 15 have had a no lead. When humza came to power he said its obvious we need a clear and sustained lead in the polls before we go for Indy ref 2.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Yes your right, it's undeniably went towards a no majority in the last 12 months. Some polls differ, but something like 13 out of 15 have had a no lead. When humza came to power he said its obvious we need a clear and sustained lead in the polls before we go for Indy ref 2.

It hasn't "undeniably went towards a no majority in the last 12 months" as you claim. In fact, almost none of the polls have shown a clear majority for either, with support for both sides commonly falling below 50%. This is in stark contrast to polls just several years prior where NO would consistently be above 50% excluding the "don't knows".

[Stairway 2 7]

It hasn't "undeniably went towards a no majority in the last 12 months" as you claim. In fact, almost none of the polls have shown a clear majority for either, with support for both sides commonly falling below 50%. This is in stark contrast to polls just several years prior where NO would consistently be above 50% excluding the "don't knows".

I said went towards no, meaning they have done literally the opposite of what you were saying, going towards yes.

It's not much but it's a clear about 5% shift towards no. It looks to have steadied though

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I said went towards no, meaning they have done literally the opposite of what you were saying, going towards yes.

It's not much but it's a clear about 5% shift towards no. It looks to have steadied though

I think you may have misunderstood the point I was making? Just a few years ago, NO was consistently getting above 50%, now they're barely able to get close to 50%. Which means support for NO has gone down and "don't know" has gone up. More people are starting to question the integrity of the UK and Scotland's place within it, even if they aren't jumping directly to YES.

[archie]

You're damn right it does, but Labour are an establishment party, occasionally they get their shot at ruling the roost, why would they want to change that?

I'm yearning to vote for a progressive left leaning party, but 🇬🇧 Labour aren't that. Scottish Labour could distance themselves from Party HQ in Westminster but they won’t or can't.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Steven79]

Do you believe that as a nation, Scotland should be able to choose how and when it decides if it becomes independent?

A simple yes or no is what I'm looking for.I can't believe that anyone would think otherwise but just goes to show you how well people have been brainwashed in this county.

Imagine the outcry if England had been ts they couldn't leave the EU or even have a vote on it by Brussels?

What's the difference...

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[Stairway 2 7]

I think you may have misunderstood the point I was making? Just a few years ago, NO was consistently getting above 50%, now they're barely able to get close to 50%. Which means support for NO has gone down and "don't know" has gone up. More people are starting to question the integrity of the UK and Scotland's place within it, even if they aren't jumping directly to YES.

Politics doesn't work on what happened years ago. It was neck and neck most of 2022 with yes leading for a while, this year no is pretty much ahead constantly. The first minister said there needs to be a consistent and clear lead for yes in the polls before they can realistically go for indyref2.

To paint things as not travelling towards no is half daft it simply has the last year. That needs to change and the only way is going for the undecided voters. 45% each way seem certain

[archie]

I can't believe that anyone would think otherwise but just goes to show you how well people have been brainwashed in this county.

Imagine the outcry if England had been ts they couldn't leave the EU or even have a vote on it by Brussels?

What's the difference...

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Brainwashed? Why would the EU say a member state couldn't have a vote? How is the EU comparable with a nation state? BTW England wasn't a member of the EU.

[He's here!]

When asked which country do people answer Scotland to distance themselves from the stupid English people who voted for Brexit*, or the union Jack shorts wearing little Englanders that rampage through European resorts in the summer? Or both?

* I very much get the impression European people think voting for Brexit was an incredibly stupid thing to do.

No stereotyping of English people there at all.

[Hibrandenburg]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Show me where Labour are offering this?

[Jack]

No stereotyping of English people there at all.

Not stereotyping of English people there at all. Just describing what some Europeans think of those that voted for Brexit and the scourge of the Costas.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not stereotyping of English people there at all. Just describing what some Europeans think of those that voted for Brexit and the scourge of the Costas.

The worst I see in the costas are rangers and celtic fan's. Families that go out for every dinner with either the hoops or blue strips, fight and argue about football on their holidays.

I wouldn't want to be grouped with them

[Jack]

The worst I see in the costas are rangers and celtic fan's. Families that go out for every dinner with either the hoops or blue strips, fight and argue about football on their holidays.

I wouldn't want to be grouped with them

A fair point although I'd suggest they don't have the numbers otherwise they're as bad as each other. I suppose it depends where you go.

[Steven79]

Brainwashed? Why would the EU say a member state couldn't have a vote? How is the EU comparable with a nation state? BTW England wasn't a member of the EU.Why does the English Parliament think it's okay to tell Scotland we can't leave a "voluntary union"

Where else would this be tolerated?

What was polling for brexit before the vote?

Was it the settled will of the people on these islands before the vote?

Nah one rule for Tory gangsters and another for Scotland and we just meekly accept it.

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[Pretty Boy]

When is the modern day, online Jeremy Beadle going to pop up and confirm this thread really is just one giant piss take that has finally gone too far? Beadles About for the online community. It's like a comedy show that has stuck around a series or 2 too many.

The last 3 or 4 pages in particular are painful reading :faf:

[Stairway 2 7]

A fair point although I'd suggest they don't have the numbers otherwise they're as bad as each other. I suppose it depends where you go.

You rarely go a holiday on any continent without seeing some mhank dressed with the hoops, thinking he's classy but looking an idiot. I ripped off a celtic sticker from a poll in Malaysia last week, my Mrs said I'm immature for some reason

I'd go for independence for leith if possible.

[archie]

Why does the English Parliament think it's okay to tell Scotland we can't leave a "voluntary union"

Where else would this be tolerated?

What was polling for brexit before the vote?

Was it the settled will of the people on these islands before the vote?

Nah one rule for Tory gangsters and another for Scotland and we just meekly accept it.

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This is just noise. You don't address any of the points I raise and just come out with more stuff. There isn't an English Parliament and the UK is a unitary state, not a 'voluntary union' like you claim.

[Steven79]

This is just noise. You don't address any of the points I raise and just come out with more stuff. There isn't an English Parliament and the UK is a unitary state, not a 'voluntary union' like you claim.It's an English Parliament in all but name.

And the "Unionists" keep claiming It's a "Union"

Why else would they call themselves "Unionists" ?

[emoji102]

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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

When is the modern day, online Jeremy Beadle going to pop up and confirm this thread really is just one giant piss take that has finally gone too far? Beadles About for the online community. It's like a comedy show that has stuck around a series or 2 too many.

The last 3 or 4 pages in particular are painful reading :faf:

I've got to agree with this, I'm not particularly into my politics but, I always found this thread an interesting read. Seems to be deteriorating at a rate of knots.

[J-C]

I've got to agree with this, I'm not particularly into my politics but, I always found this thread an interesting read. Seems to be deteriorating at a rate of knots.

The admin made it PM members only the last time due to the same posters bickering and threads going round in circles.

[Smartie]

The admin made it PM members only the last time due to the same posters bickering and threads going round in circles.

I quite enjoyed my little break from it when we were ousted and I thoroughly enjoyed reading the decent posts that I'd missed when we were not here.

Sadly it's degenerated again and whilst I'm still magnetically drawn back to read it (and occasionally post) it's hard to enjoy.

[archie]

I've got to agree with this, I'm not particularly into my politics but, I always found this thread an interesting read. Seems to be deteriorating at a rate of knots.

I know some will blame me for it, but I've come to the conclusion that there is a lack of seriousness in the posting. It's just talking points or attemts at gotchas. There's little willingness to engage with the issues and complexities. And it has got pretty Trumpish in some cases: Keir Starmer taking cash bribes from private healthcare companies - really?

[Just Alf]

I quite enjoyed my little break from it when we were ousted and I thoroughly enjoyed reading the decent posts that I'd missed when we were not here.

Sadly it's degenerated again and whilst I'm still magnetically drawn back to read it (and occasionally post) it's hard to enjoy.Pretty much sums up my feelings too.... lost my enjoyment of it, ironically it was the Holy Ground that prompted me to put my hands in my pocket so I could do my little bit to support the site as a private member.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I've tried to give the place one last go, but it's like arguing with flat earthers at times and if calling them out on their nonsense is considered dragging the place down, then they can have it to themselves. I'm out.

[archie]

I've tried to give the place one last go, but it's like arguing with flat earthers at times and if calling them out on their nonsense is considered dragging the place down, then they can have it to themselves. I'm out.

Before you go, have you got that evidence for Starmer taking cash bribes?

[Ozyhibby]

Back to PM’s only please. [emoji1696]


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[WeeRussell]

I know some will blame me for it, but I've come to the conclusion that there is a lack of seriousness in the posting. It's just talking points or attemts at gotchas. There's little willingness to engage with the issues and complexities. And it has got pretty Trumpish in some cases: Keir Starmer taking cash bribes from private healthcare companies - really?

I don’t blame you - I wish I could spend more time reading about the issues and complexities over being asked where you’re from when on holiday.

[archie]

I don’t blame you - I wish I could spend more time reading about the issues and complexities over being asked where you’re from when on holiday.

Well if you were serious would would engage with the complexities of what makes a country, but pop away!

[lapsedhibee]

This is just noise. You don't address any of the points I raise and just come out with more stuff. There isn't an English Parliament and the UK is a unitary state, not a 'voluntary union' like you claim.

Speaking on BBC’s Good Morning Scotland, he was asked, if the Union was voluntary, then how does Scotland go about leaving.

Ross said: “Well of course it’s voluntary and I’ve given you the clearest example that we live in a voluntary Union because just eight years ago we were given the opportunity to have our say on this issue.

[archie]

Speaking on BBC’s Good Morning Scotland, he was asked, if the Union was voluntary, then how does Scotland go about leaving.

Ross said: “Well of course it’s voluntary and I’ve given you the clearest example that we live in a voluntary Union because just eight years ago we were given the opportunity to have our say on this issue.

OK - what point do you think he was making and what do you think a voluntary union means?

It's really not the gotcha you think it is.

[lapsedhibee]

OK - what point do you think he was making and what do you think a voluntary union means?

It's really not the gotcha you think it is.

No idea what was in his head. The leader of a unionist party in Scotland described Scotland as being in a voluntary union. So it wasn't something Steven79 just dreamed up, as you insinuated.

If you think that every time someone points out an inconsistency in what you say you can just accuse them of attempting 'gotchas', you crack on.

[Curried]

I spent a few dull moments plugging yes :-)

[archie]

No idea what was in his head. The leader of a unionist party in Scotland described Scotland as being in a voluntary union. So it wasn't something Steven79 just dreamed up, as you insinuated.

If you think that every time someone points out an inconsistency in what you say you can just accuse them of attempting 'gotchas', you crack on.

So Douglas Ross is treated as gospel now? But in a spirit of serious enquiry, please point me to anywhere that sets out the 'voluntary union' of the UK and how it operates.

[Ozyhibby]

It isn’t a voluntary union. It used to be but it is not now. The previous mechanism for leaving has been withdrawn. It’s not difficult to understand. Scotland can’t leave this union legally.


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[lapsedhibee]

So Douglas Ross is treated as gospel now? But in a spirit of serious enquiry, please point me to anywhere that sets out the 'voluntary union' of the UK and how it operates.
Clearly not a voluntary union, that's just unionist lies. Could be wrong but I doubt if you'd be able to point out exactly where the UK is described as a 'unitary state'. In some respects UK acts as a single entity, in others it doesn't. Some people understand UK as one country, others consider it four. Ross is a fool.

[archie]

Clearly not a voluntary union, that's just unionist lies. Could be wrong but I doubt if you'd be able to point out exactly where the UK is described as a 'unitary state'. In some respects UK acts as a single entity, in others it doesn't. Some people understand UK as one country, others consider it four. Ross is a fool.

The Treaty of Union states this:

I

That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint and the Crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit and used in all Flags Banners Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/contents

[archie]

It isn’t a voluntary union. It used to be but it is not now. The previous mechanism for leaving has been withdrawn. It’s not difficult to understand. Scotland can’t leave this union legally.


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When was the previous mechanism removed?

[Ozyhibby]

When was the previous mechanism removed?

The minute that the UK refused a referendum asked for and voted for by the Scottish Parliament.


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[lapsedhibee]

The Treaty of Union states this:

I

That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint and the Crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit and used in all Flags Banners Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/contents

Crosses of St Andrew and St George have not been conjoined and used in all flags etc though. You don't have to look too carefully to still see them used completely separately. That document's well out of date and long overdue for an overhaul.

[archie]

The minute that the UK refused a referendum asked for and voted for by the Scottish Parliament.


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So nothing changed as such. It is, as it has always been, a political resolution. There isn't a constitutional power for the Scottish Parliament to unitaterally call a referendum.

Before people give me a hard time on this, it is simply a statement of fact. If Scottish independnence is achieved it will be through a political solution.

[Ozyhibby]

So nothing changed as such. It is, as it has always been, a political resolution. There isn't a constitutional power for the Scottish Parliament to unitaterally call a referendum.

Before people give me a hard time on this, it is simply a statement of fact. If Scottish independnence is achieved it will be through a political solution.

So it’s no longer voluntary. It has to be gifted by the rUK. At least we agree on that.


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[archie]

So it’s no longer voluntary. It has to be gifted by the rUK. At least we agree on that.


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Can you point me to when it was voluntary?