Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1646942056336457737?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1646942056336457737?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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And the gap will only widen.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ftv8r3_XoAIylD3?format=jpg&name=small

[Hibrandenburg]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ftv8r3_XoAIylD3?format=jpg&name=small

Not new.

[Ozyhibby]

The difference in the level of Irish diplomacy this week compared to what Scotland is allowed to do. Easy to see why they are so much richer than us.


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[grunt]

Not new.
This bit is new ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtqD95RXwAIfoZX?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtqD95VXoAQPMI1?format=jpg&name=medium

[Mibbes Aye]

The difference in the level of Irish diplomacy this week compared to what Scotland is allowed to do. Easy to see why they are so much richer than us.


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Funnily enough, if you use the Twitter link you posted and scroll down just a little bit you find this article

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247

Comparing Ireland to the UK using GDP is not a robust way to evaluate impact on individuals. It's not even that robust in evaluating 'performance' of the two economies.

It's not comparing apples with apples, it's comparing apples and strawberries. And not by sight, smell, touch or taste but hy sound :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Funnily enough, if you use the Twitter link you posted and scroll down just a little bit you find this article

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247

Comparing Ireland to the UK using GDP is not a robust way to evaluate impact on individuals. It's not even that robust in evaluating 'performance' of the two economies.

It's not comparing apples with apples, it's comparing apples and strawberries. And not by sight, smell, touch or taste but hy sound :greengrin

That’s very true. Is there any other method of comparison between Scotland and Ireland where Scotland comes out on top?


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[Mibbes Aye]

That’s very true. Is there any other method of comparison between Scotland and Ireland where Scotland comes out on top?


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I don't know, I've never looked!

I instinctively have issues with a lot of the comparison stuff, not just because it's rarely apples and apples but because quantitative stats can be used to say just about anything, when not contextualised, then there's the whole point about whether the thing being measured is actually the right thing.

There is a place for quantitative stats but it must be as one strand of evidence to describe a bigger picture. Likewise, A doing 'better' than B on a measure is only half the picture. IF you had four hairs on your head and I had six, then I would have a 50% fuller head of hair than you. We would both still be baldy ****s though :greengrin (I picked that as a safe analogy, given we both have flowing locks that belie the maturity of our years)

[Kato]

I don't know, I've never looked!

I instinctively have issues with a lot of the comparison stuff, not just because it's rarely apples and apples but because quantitative stats can be used to say just about anything, when not contextualised, then there's the whole point about whether the thing being measured is actually the right thing.

There is a place for quantitative stats but it must be as one strand of evidence to describe a bigger picture. Likewise, A doing 'better' than B on a measure is only half the picture. IF you had four hairs on your head and I had six, then I would have a 50% fuller head of hair than you. We would both still be baldy ****s though :greengrin (I picked that as a safe analogy, given we both have flowing locks that belie the maturity of our years)So we should be happy with 4 hairs and not look at other people's heads?

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[Ozyhibby]

I don't know, I've never looked!

I instinctively have issues with a lot of the comparison stuff, not just because it's rarely apples and apples but because quantitative stats can be used to say just about anything, when not contextualised, then there's the whole point about whether the thing being measured is actually the right thing.

There is a place for quantitative stats but it must be as one strand of evidence to describe a bigger picture. Likewise, A doing 'better' than B on a measure is only half the picture. IF you had four hairs on your head and I had six, then I would have a 50% fuller head of hair than you. We would both still be baldy ****s though :greengrin (I picked that as a safe analogy, given we both have flowing locks that belie the maturity of our years)

We need a catch up soon, I’m heading into the baldy zone these days. [emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

So we should be happy with 4 hairs and not look at other people's heads?

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I'm illustrating that highlighting a single stat for comparative purposes can misrepresent the real picture.

What point are you making?

[Stairway 2 7]

Irelands gdp is obviously all over the place due to their conglomerates. But it's also clearly fairing better.

It's probably best to discount them in comparison and use the rest of the g7 and there you can see we are clearly going the wrong way. Brexit bonus is a destroyed economy. You need to have a literal war like Russia to do more self inflicted pain than we've done. To be fair there old passports were a horrible colour

[Kato]

Irelands gdp is obviously all over the place due to their conglomerates. But it's also clearly fairing better.

It's probably best to discount them in comparison and use the rest of the g7 and there you can see we are clearly going the wrong way. Brexit bonus is a destroyed economy. You need to have a literal war like Russia to do more self inflicted pain than we've done. To be fair there old passports were a horrible colourDo the g7 have more hair than the UK?

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[Kato]

I'm illustrating that highlighting a single stat for comparative purposes can misrepresent the real picture.

What point are you making?Your instinctive issues shouldn't get in the way of comparisons.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Your instinctive issues shouldn't get in the way of comparisons.

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Instead of cryptically playing the man, play the ball.

The Irish Times article offers a good argument as to why a simple comparison of GDPs is misleading. I posted why I thought a simple comparison of GDPs was misleading.

Why don’t you offer an argument as to why comparing the GFPs of two nations with very different economies and very different arrangements for monetary and fiscal policy shouldn’t be considered risky?

[Ozyhibby]

It’s generally accepted that the quality of life in Ireland is higher than the UK and has been for a decade now. I haven’t seen any stats that would change my mind on that because there are none.


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[marinello59]

It’s generally accepted that the quality of life in Ireland is higher than the UK and has been for a decade now. I haven’t seen any stats that would change my mind on that because there are none.


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Genuine question, how is this quality of life measured ?

[Ozyhibby]

Genuine question, how is this quality of life measured ?

No idea how they measure it. Guess it will be things like education, life expectancy, opportunity etc.

https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in/


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[Kato]

Instead of cryptically playing the man, play the ball.

The Irish Times article offers a good argument as to why a simple comparison of GDPs is misleading. I posted why I thought a simple comparison of GDPs was misleading.

Why don’t you offer an argument as to why comparing the GFPs of two nations with very different economies and very different arrangements for monetary and fiscal policy shouldn’t be considered risky?Or i could just stick to the idea that you find making comparisons between nations generally a bad idea.
Seems strange.

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[marinello59]

No idea how they measure it. Guess it will be things like education, life expectancy, opportunity etc.

https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in/


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Cheers.
I’m not so sure you can quantify it but that does look like a decent attempt.

[Mibbes Aye]

Or i could just stick to the idea that you find making comparisons between nations generally a bad idea.
Seems strange.

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Making comparisons between nations using misleading data is strange. Are you suggesting otherwise?

[Kato]

Making comparisons between nations using misleading data is strange. Are you suggesting otherwise?Probably quite common. In fact so common that it'll happen every day, and through all the misleading data, updated, vague measuring points and lived experience a reliable picture will probably emerge. Common, not strange. Strange is trying to avoid comparisons altogether and just be happy with four hairs.

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[Mibbes Aye]

No idea how they measure it. Guess it will be things like education, life expectancy, opportunity etc.

https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in/


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If I was being argumentative I could say that the approach shows Ireland as 1.6% 'better' but will be overtaken shortly if the improvement they describe in both states is maintained :greengrin

Anyway, I think we have been here before - things like life expectancy are very crude and unhelpful measures. There is a clear quality of life differential between lbeing alive in your 80s with relatively good health and being alive in your 80s in ill-health, with a raft of long-term conditions and numerous health and social care interventions on a daily basis. Also, with education, you have different systems in England and Scotland, which are aggregated for these results I assume, but that doesnt reflect the reality - relatively few people (but there are some) move between the two schools systems.

For what it's worth, I feel the best way of measuring 'quality of life' would be extensive qualitative research - basically just ask people. And ask robust but open questions and then analyse the results in an almost academic way. Because the best measure of how good someones life is is usually that persons feelings about it. I have no idea what that would produce in terms of results but it would be genuinely about people's experiences, rather than using crude proxies.

[Mibbes Aye]

Probably quite common. In fact so common that it'll happen every day, and through all the misleading data, updated, vague measuring points and lived experience a reliable picture will probably emerge. Common, not strange. Strange is trying to avoid comparisons altogether and just be happy with four hairs.

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You really have a thing about me and Ozy's hair don't you? :greengrin

Anyway, you seem to have got it the wrong way round. In my analogy it was the person with six hairs on his head who would be foolish to think all was awesome because he had 50% more hair (than the man with four hairs)

[Kato]

You relly have a thing about me and Ozy's hair don't you? :greengrin

Anyway, you seem to have got it the wrong way round. In my analogy it was the person with six hairs on his head who would be foolish to think all was awesome because he had 50% more hair (than the man with four hairs)I heard you had more hair, on the whole.

FWIW I like your reply just previous and agree.

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[Mibbes Aye]

I heard you had more hair, on the whole.

FWIW I like your reply just previous and agree.

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Yeah, I saw you had made a similar point but I only saw it after I had finished posting mine.

[Mibbes Aye]

I heard you had more hair, on the whole.

FWIW I like your reply just previous and agree.

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At least 50% more but he is better-looking, it's all contextual :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

This bit is new ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtqD95RXwAIfoZX?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtqD95VXoAQPMI1?format=jpg&name=medium

The memo might be new but the policy isn't.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230417/e198cbe7cefb779859e5c21042786759.jpg


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[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230417/e198cbe7cefb779859e5c21042786759.jpg


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With all the information out there. Does any political party or movement have to make a case for independence, or are those individuals not for turning just not listening?

I've seen this mentioned a few times that somehow a case needs to be made, when in reality you only need to read a bit. 😏

[archie]

With all the information out there. Does any political party or movement have to make a case for independence, or are those individuals not for turning just not listening?

I've seen this mentioned a few times that somehow a case needs to be made, when in reality you only need to read a bit. 😏

Because the bare numbers don't a) tell the whole story of what an economy is like for ordinary people and b) don't narrate how Scotland would get there. In the case of Ireland you just have to read a bit for a deeper understanding of how the economy is functioning. Ozyhibby wants the low business tax approach to bring in foreign companies. That doesn't sit well with the 'progressive ' mantra.

[grunt]

Because the bare numbers don't a) tell the whole story of what an economy is like for ordinary people and b) don't narrate how Scotland would get there. In the case of Ireland you just have to read a bit for a deeper understanding of how the economy is functioning. Ozyhibby wants the low business tax approach to bring in foreign companies. That doesn't sit well with the 'progressive ' mantra.You've been paying too much attention to MA's "GDP means nothing" mantra. It may not be the perfect measure but it's still an indication of the financial health of a country, and having prolonged periods of negative or zero growth will already be felt by your ordinary people. I feel it, and I'm as ordinary as you can get. As for how to get there, well for one thing opening our borders to the enormously successful* market in Europe will do wonders for our economy.

*Depending on how you measure it.

The UK is an economic ****hole, and the sooner we get out of it the better for Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Because the bare numbers don't a) tell the whole story of what an economy is like for ordinary people and b) don't narrate how Scotland would get there. In the case of Ireland you just have to read a bit for a deeper understanding of how the economy is functioning. Ozyhibby wants the low business tax approach to bring in foreign companies. That doesn't sit well with the 'progressive ' mantra.

Is Ireland not progressive?


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[ronaldo7]

Because the bare numbers don't a) tell the whole story of what an economy is like for ordinary people and b) don't narrate how Scotland would get there. In the case of Ireland you just have to read a bit for a deeper understanding of how the economy is functioning. Ozyhibby wants the low business tax approach to bring in foreign companies. That doesn't sit well with the 'progressive ' mantra.

I know what the economy is like for "ordinary" people in Ireland, and I also know what the economy is in a dependent Scotland, and I also know which one I like the most. It's not only about Ireland though, it's about where we are now and where we're going.

Brexit Britain v Independent Scotland in the EU.

I know which team Im on.

[archie]

I know what the economy is like for "ordinary" people in Ireland, and I also know what the economy is in a dependent Scotland, and I also know which one I like the most. It's not only about Ireland though, it's about where we are now and where we're going.

Brexit Britain v Independent Scotland in the EU.

I know which team Im on.

Typing this in Ireland right now. No doubt bits of the economy are buzzing. But there's a reason Sinn Fein are doing well. It's because of widespread unhappiness at how the economy is performing for ordinary people.

[Ozyhibby]

Typing this in Ireland right now. No doubt bits of the economy are buzzing. But there's a reason Sinn Fein are doing well. It's because of widespread unhappiness at how the economy is performing for ordinary people.

Primarily housing. In that respect, Ireland is doing no better than us. The have a cut and paste of our planning laws and can’t build quick enough.


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[archie]

Is Ireland not progressive?


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Define your terms. Some parts of social policy have moved on enormously in the last decades, but for ordinary people life here can be pretty tough. I know that's the case in the UK too, but you aren't holding that up as a beacon.

[archie]

Primarily housing. In that respect, Ireland is doing no better than us. The have a cut and paste of our planning laws and can’t build quick enough.


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So it's the UK's fault. I knew it!

[Ozyhibby]

Define your terms. Some parts of social policy have moved on enormously in the last decades, but for ordinary people life here can be pretty tough. I know that's the case in the UK too, but you aren't holding that up as a beacon.

https://www.oecd.org/gov/gov-at-a-glance-2021-ireland.pdf

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230417/a94cae2ccb975f6a32ea46f2303b247c.jpg
It’s just that the OECD seem to think it very progressive? Is it perfect? No chance. Still very high inequality.
The charge that it’s not progressive can’t really be made from the UK though. Maybe if we lived in Norway or somewhere like that.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Typing this in Ireland right now. No doubt bits of the economy are buzzing. But there's a reason Sinn Fein are doing well. It's because of widespread unhappiness at how the economy is performing for ordinary people.

Wasn't the key driver their housing problems? Not necessarily an indicator of a poorly performing economy, in fact partly the opposite. More a lack of strategic thinking/planning (that also blights Scotland and rUK).

[archie]

https://www.oecd.org/gov/gov-at-a-glance-2021-ireland.pdf

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230417/a94cae2ccb975f6a32ea46f2303b247c.jpg
It’s just that the OECD seem to think it very progressive? Is it perfect? No chance. Still very high inequality.
The charge that it’s not progressive can’t really be made from the UK though. Maybe if we lived in Norway or somewhere like that.


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Why? Healthcare in the UK is free at the point of use. Not here.

[archie]

Wasn't the key driver their housing problems? Not necessarily an indicator of a poorly performing economy, in fact partly the opposite. More a lack of strategic thinking/planning (that also blights Scotland and rUK).

Or an indication of a grossly distorted economy.

[Ozyhibby]

Why? Healthcare in the UK is free at the point of use. Not here.

They have better health outcomes though.


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[Ozyhibby]

Or an indication of a grossly distorted economy.

Lucky Scotland doesn’t have that.[emoji23]


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[ronaldo7]

Typing this in Ireland right now. No doubt bits of the economy are buzzing. But there's a reason Sinn Fein are doing well. It's because of widespread unhappiness at how the economy is performing for ordinary people.

Enjoy your holiday.

[Smartie]

Define your terms. Some parts of social policy have moved on enormously in the last decades, but for ordinary people life here can be pretty tough. I know that's the case in the UK too, but you aren't holding that up as a beacon.

You do make a fair point here and if we're to compare the 2 countries with anything resembling objectivity we need to be careful about what we're comparing.

Both countries have a quite shameful gap between the haves and the have nots. Some parts of Edinburgh in particular regularly come close to the top of lists when it comes to "standard of living". It would be fair to say that we wouldn't have to try to hard on here to come up with parts of Edinburgh that don't really figure highly on that list.

Purely subjectively I'd be much happier about the direction of travel if I was Irish rather than Scottish right now. That's not to say it's a bed of roses over there or that they don't have their problems.

It's often interesting to ask the question "what do you think Scotland should do and if you could, would you rejoin the UK"? I was a regular visitor to the Republic of Ireland during my formative years and I think I was quite heavily influenced by what the general consensus on that question was.

[Kato]

Lucky Scotland doesn’t have that.[emoji23]

Yeah, we have the UKs "broad shoulders", they slope a bit to allow the sh*t to hit those at the feet but the shoulders? Broad, man. Broad.

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[Jack]

Because the bare numbers don't a) tell the whole story of what an economy is like for ordinary people and b) don't narrate how Scotland would get there. In the case of Ireland you just have to read a bit for a deeper understanding of how the economy is functioning. Ozyhibby wants the low business tax approach to bring in foreign companies. That doesn't sit well with the 'progressive ' mantra.

Where you you rather be on the graph? Rock bottom, worse off a country at war (source elsewhere) with harsh economic sanctions in place apparently or a wee bit further up?

[Ozyhibby]

Where you you rather be on the graph? Rock bottom, worse off a country at war (source elsewhere) with harsh economic sanctions in place apparently or a wee bit further up?

We are not worse off than Russia. The only reason they show as above us is that the Kremlin is doctoring their figures.
It’s rubbish here but not that rubbish.


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[archie]

Enjoy your holiday.

Family stuff actually. No need for sarcasm.

[ronaldo7]

Family stuff actually. No need for sarcasm.

Oh dear. I was actually hoping you were having a nice holiday. It is the season after all.

[Jack]

We are not worse off than Russia. The only reason they show as above us is that the Kremlin is doctoring their figures.
It’s rubbish here but not that rubbish.


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Fair enough. Question is still a good one though. Where on the graph is it better to be?

Unless it's stuff like child deprivation I'd rather be in the top half.

[archie]

They have better health outcomes though.


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Paying for healthcare at pint of use may be your 'progressive' vision. It isn't mine

[Curried]

We are not worse off than Russia. The only reason they show as above us is that the Kremlin is doctoring their figures.
It’s rubbish here but not that rubbish.


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Have you ever been to Russia?

[Ozyhibby]

Paying for healthcare at pint of use may be your 'progressive' vision. It isn't mine

Ours is free but your dead.[emoji106]


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[Smartie]

Have you ever been to Russia?

I have, when I was at school, strangely.

Fascinating place.

As critical as I can be of Scotland I wouldn't be in a hurry to swap places with anyone there, if only because I value highly the freedom to talk critical nonsense about our political leaders on a football forum and elsewhere.

It was 1993 when I visited, Russia had many paths open to it at the time and none of us had heard of Vladimir Putin. It's desperately sad that we've ended up where we have with them.

Although it's also sad that we've gone from a position where a young lad at a state school could go on a school trip to Russia to where we are now.

[Mibbes Aye]

You've been paying too much attention to MA's "GDP means nothing" mantra.

I said no such thing. Why would you make things up?

[grunt]

I said no such thing. Why would you make things up?It's called paraphrasing. Why so touchy?

Ok, you said:


Comparing Ireland to the UK using GDP is not a robust way to evaluate impact on individuals. It's not even that robust in evaluating 'performance' of the two economies. It's not comparing apples with apples, it's comparing apples and strawberries. And not by sight, smell, touch or taste but hy sound :greengrin

I think my shorter version of what you said wasn't very far out.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's called paraphrasing. Why so touchy?

Ok, you said:



I think my shorter version of what you said wasn't very far out.

Using GDP (or practically any other single measure) as the sole method of comparing two economies is flawed. That's what I said.

If you think that is the same as saying "GDP means nothing" then there's no helping you.

[grunt]

Using GDP (or practically any other single measure) as the sole method of comparing two economies is flawed. That's what I said.

If you think that is the same as saying "GDP means nothing" then there's no helping you.Righto.

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually just saw this thread and it shows just how much more disposable income Irish have than us across different percentiles, its bad for the UK

https://mobile.twitter.com/DevanSinha/status/1648020329510367232

[Mibbes Aye]

Righto.

I sure am :wink: :greengrin

[degenerated]

Actually just saw this thread and it shows just how much more disposable income Irish have than us across different percentiles, its bad for the UK

https://mobile.twitter.com/DevanSinha/status/1648020329510367232Do they have blue passports though.

[Stairway 2 7]

Do they have blue passports though.

Nah but they can afford to use their passports, unlike us ha

[Jack]

Using GDP (or practically any other single measure) as the sole method of comparing two economies is flawed. That's what I said.

If you think that is the same as saying "GDP means nothing" then there's no helping you.

Is GDP a single measure?

I thought it was the result of a number of economic factors crunched by governments around the world to a international standard.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is GDP a single measure?

I thought it was the result of a number of economic factors crunched by governments around the world to a international standard.

Yes but it's sometimes inflated like Ireland. Also lots of variation per company analysing. Imf saying uk gbp will contract but most other places now saying it will grow this year but by a small amount, I'm sure imf will eventually revise to this too.

Ireland and Russia are obviously not good examples for different reasons but the fact is we will clearly have poorer growth than every other g7 nation

On Ireland you can see from the graph how much ab outlier Ireland is, due to corporation tax being half the rest
https://mobile.twitter.com/julianHjessop/status/1647956194466713601


Julian Jessop
@julianHjessop
If anyone else tweets that "Ireland's per capita GDP is now twice that of the UK" please point out that...

1. on this basis, it is also now at least twice that of Germany, France, Italy... 👇

2. this is clearly a nonsense statistic

3. they should google 'Leprechaun economics

[Mibbes Aye]

Is GDP a single measure?

I thought it was the result of a number of economic factors crunched by governments around the world to a international standard.

In layman’s terms it is the product of a sum, used as a measure for comparative purposes. Basically a combination of consumption, investment and the balance of import/export.

So in a sense both your paragraphs are right but the huge caveat with the second one is about the word ‘standard’. The formula can and does mask huge distortions based on political choices, amongst a range of other things, hence why it can so often be not comparing apples with apples.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes but it's sometimes inflated like Ireland. Also lots of variation per company analysing. Imf saying uk gbp will contract but most other places now saying it will grow this year but by a small amount, I'm sure imf will eventually revise to this too.

Ireland and Russia are obviously not good examples for different reasons but the fact is we will clearly have poorer growth than every other g7 nation

On Ireland you can see from the graph how much ab outlier Ireland is, due to corporation tax being half the rest
https://mobile.twitter.com/julianHjessop/status/1647956194466713601


Julian Jessop
@julianHjessop
If anyone else tweets that "Ireland's per capita GDP is now twice that of the UK" please point out that...

1. on this basis, it is also now at least twice that of Germany, France, Italy... [emoji116]

2. this is clearly a nonsense statistic

3. they should google 'Leprechaun economics

GDP is only one measure and doesn’t tell the whole story. I think we all agree on that but it’s not nothing either. Ireland’s corporation tax receipts dwarf Scotland’s. They are taking more tax from business than we are. And it is bringing jobs into Ireland. Good high skilled jobs at that. The growth of the pharma industry on the west coast from zero 20 years ago to what it is now is pretty damn amazing. I wish we had been able to do it.
It’s popular to knock Ireland when it’s pointed out how well they are doing. It’s only because of this, it’s only because of that. It’s about time we started looking at ourselves and decided exactly what it is that we want to do instead of complaining about advantages Ireland gives itself.


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[Stairway 2 7]

GDP is only one measure and doesn’t tell the whole story. I think we all agree on that but it’s not nothing either. Ireland’s corporation tax receipts dwarf Scotland’s. They are taking more tax from business than we are. And it is bringing jobs into Ireland. Good high skilled jobs at that. The growth of the pharma industry on the west coast from zero 20 years ago to what it is now is pretty damn amazing. I wish we had been able to do it.
It’s popular to knock Ireland when it’s pointed out how well they are doing. It’s only because of this, it’s only because of that. It’s about time we started looking at ourselves and decided exactly what it is that we want to do instead of complaining about advantages Ireland gives itself.


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I put up a post yesterday about disposable income in Ireland being much higher, that is a better indicator

[Ozyhibby]

I put up a post yesterday about disposable income in Ireland being much higher, that is a better indicator

Agreed. It won’t be long until you start to hear about Scots moving to Ireland because of the better job opportunities there.


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[archie]

GDP is only one measure and doesn’t tell the whole story. I think we all agree on that but it’s not nothing either. Ireland’s corporation tax receipts dwarf Scotland’s. They are taking more tax from business than we are. And it is bringing jobs into Ireland. Good high skilled jobs at that. The growth of the pharma industry on the west coast from zero 20 years ago to what it is now is pretty damn amazing. I wish we had been able to do it.
It’s popular to knock Ireland when it’s pointed out how well they are doing. It’s only because of this, it’s only because of that. It’s about time we started looking at ourselves and decided exactly what it is that we want to do instead of complaining about advantages Ireland gives itself.


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I think Ireland is buzzing just now. And it makes sense to look at what they are doing well. They have benefitted massively from being in the EU. But equally it is legitimate to question whether their approach is right for us. I hate the race to the bottom approach they have to corporation tax. I also think the boom and bust cycles that they go through are really destructive for individuals.

[Smartie]

I think Ireland is buzzing just now. And it makes sense to look at what they are doing well. They have benefitted massively from being in the EU. But equally it is legitimate to question whether their approach is right for us. I hate the race to the bottom approach they have to corporation tax. I also think the boom and bust cycles that they go through are really destructive for individuals.

Good job Gordon Brown abolished boom and bust here then, although imo we could do with another boom at some point.

[archie]

Good job Gordon Brown abolished boom and bust here then, although imo we could do with another boom at some point.

If you think boom and bust is good for the economy we'll have to disagree. The impact of negative equity from 2008 has still not been fully worked through. That really hurts people.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Ireland is buzzing just now. And it makes sense to look at what they are doing well. They have benefitted massively from being in the EU. But equally it is legitimate to question whether their approach is right for us. I hate the race to the bottom approach they have to corporation tax. I also think the boom and bust cycles that they go through are really destructive for individuals.

Their last bust was 2008? Same as us? We just skipped the boom part.


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[Ozyhibby]

If you think boom and bust is good for the economy we'll have to disagree. The impact of negative equity from 2008 has still not been fully worked through. That really hurts people.

Do you mean house prices? They came back years ago. Even here?


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[Jack]

If you think boom and bust is good for the economy we'll have to disagree. The impact of negative equity from 2008 has still not been fully worked through. That really hurts people.

Much better to have boom, bust, bust, bust as we do in the UK.

[Smartie]

If you think boom and bust is good for the economy we'll have to disagree. The impact of negative equity from 2008 has still not been fully worked through. That really hurts people.

I don't think it's great, but I agree with the point made elsewhere that it's probably better to have boom and bust than a flatlining economy that enjoys plenty of bust and little boom.

I was also poking fun at the bold claims made by Brown prior to the banking crash of 2008 that he had eradicated boom and bust when he clearly hadn't / couldn't.

[archie]

I don't think it's great, but I agree with the point made elsewhere that it's probably better to have boom and bust than a flatlining economy that enjoys plenty of bust and little boom.

I was also poking fun at the bold claims made by Brown prior to the banking crash of 2008 that he had eradicated boom and bust when he clearly hadn't / couldn't.

It's really not better to have boom and bust. And while you are poking fun at Gordon Brown, it was a perfectly laudable aim, given the pain that Tory boom and bust had caused individuals.

[Smartie]

It's really not better to have boom and bust. And while you are poking fun at Gordon Brown, it was a perfectly laudable aim, given the pain that Tory boom and bust had caused individuals.

I mean, we probably need to set out the exact terms but are you seriously arguing that bust and bust is better than boom and bust? Is this in that whole "happy peasants and miserable millionaires" sense?

Is boom and bust a particularly Tory phenomenon?

I agree that mitigation, if possible, is desirable. I'm not sure how easy that is ever going to be, when an economy will always be vulnerable to so many external factors and anyone who boldly claims that they've managed to eradicate it is going to look as foolish as Brown did when that inevitably ends up proving not to be the case.

[Mibbes Aye]

GDP is only one measure and doesn’t tell the whole story. I think we all agree on that but it’s not nothing either. Ireland’s corporation tax receipts dwarf Scotland’s. They are taking more tax from business than we are. And it is bringing jobs into Ireland. Good high skilled jobs at that. The growth of the pharma industry on the west coast from zero 20 years ago to what it is now is pretty damn amazing. I wish we had been able to do it.
It’s popular to knock Ireland when it’s pointed out how well they are doing. It’s only because of this, it’s only because of that. It’s about time we started looking at ourselves and decided exactly what it is that we want to do instead of complaining about advantages Ireland gives itself.


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I think we do agree, now, that GDP by itself is not robust. Hopefully if people use it in future it is with that caveat, for their own credibility. For me it’s a bit like Top Trumps. I got handed down an old pack when I was young, by my older cousin. Gordon McQueen was really tall, Mick Mills had the most league appearances, Bob Latchford had the most league goals. All true but not really the full picture.

As for corporation tax, receipts are higher in Ireland. But it’s not knocking Ireland to point out that this is because they have such tiny levels of corporation tax. And the problem with that is they are then dependent on keeping that business, because economically it is a house of cards. All it takes is a wind change, a slightly more favourable tax regime in a small, malleable economy elsewhere and it all falls down. The Irish Minister of Finance describes the situation as ‘artificially positive’, which is at least honest.

You also have to bear in mind that Irish corporation tax receipts are doubled by a temporary windfall measure. Without it they would be running a deficit. But if they make it permanent they risk losing all that foreign capital. You said we should be looking at ourselves and what we want to do. I don’t want us going down that road.

[Ozyhibby]

I think we do agree, now, that GDP by itself is not robust. Hopefully if people use it in future it is with that caveat, for their own credibility. For me it’s a bit like Top Trumps. I got handed down an old pack when I was young, by my older cousin. Gordon McQueen was really tall, Mick Mills had the most league appearances, Bob Latchford had the most league goals. All true but not really the full picture.

As for corporation tax, receipts are higher in Ireland. But it’s not knocking Ireland to point out that this is because they have such tiny levels of corporation tax. And the problem with that is they are then dependent on keeping that business, because economically it is a house of cards. All it takes is a wind change, a slightly more favourable tax regime in a small, malleable economy elsewhere and it all falls down. The Irish Minister of Finance describes the situation as ‘artificially positive’, which is at least honest.

You also have to bear in mind that Irish corporation tax receipts are doubled by a temporary windfall measure. Without it they would be running a deficit. But if they make it permanent they risk losing all that foreign capital. You said we should be looking at ourselves and what we want to do. I don’t want us going down that road.

Which is fine, I’m not sure it’s the right road for us either. Whichever road we take has to be a road that the majority of people can get behind. Maybe the Danish or Norwegian model is more suited to where Scottish people are politically?
What I do believe is that we need to choose a road. Right now it feels like we are sitting in a ditch at the side of the road not moving and picking faults with all the roads available to us.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230419/9122fa008728e05d26e1b3e093bcc0b0.jpg

UK winning again.


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[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230419/9122fa008728e05d26e1b3e093bcc0b0.jpg

UK winning again.


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A single measure doesn't mean anything ... particularly if it shows the UK in a bad light.

I assume when all these type of charts are published showing the UK at the wrong end of everything they'll still all be single measures, next up ... Eurovison 😆

[ronaldo7]

Remember when Johann, standing outside Asda told us we'd get cheaper food prices if we voted No.

Latest ONS figures show food prices up 19.1% in the last year alone.

[Ozyhibby]

A single measure doesn't mean anything ... particularly if it shows the UK in a bad light.

I assume when all these type of charts are published showing the UK at the wrong end of everything they'll still all be single measures, next up ... Eurovison [emoji38]

Is the only way to fix this a return to the EU?


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[Ozyhibby]

Food price inflation didn’t even get a mention at PMQ’s today. [emoji35]
Not by Starmer anyway, maybe Flynn did, I didn’t hear him.

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[Jack]

Is the only way to fix this a return to the EU?


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It might be part of the solution but even if moves to get back into the EU started now I suspect there has been so much damage done it would be a hard road ahead.

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done keep up the good work :agree: and don't let Starmers Branch party anywhere near it



Three hospitals in Scotland ranked top in the UK in World's Best table | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/west-central/three-hospitals-in-scotland-ranked-top-in-the-uk-in-worlds-best-table)

[marinello59]

well done keep up the good work :agree: and don't let Starmers Branch party anywhere near it



Three hospitals in Scotland ranked top in the UK in World's Best table | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/west-central/three-hospitals-in-scotland-ranked-top-in-the-uk-in-worlds-best-table)

So the top hospital in Scotland was ranked 26th in the UK?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/davidghfrost/status/1648795240147320837?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Tories want to roll back devolution.


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[Stairway 2 7]

well done keep up the good work :agree: and don't let Starmers Branch party anywhere near it



Three hospitals in Scotland ranked top in the UK in World's Best table | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/west-central/three-hospitals-in-scotland-ranked-top-in-the-uk-in-worlds-best-table)

Pretty poor for Scotland no?

[J-C]

So the top hospital in Scotland was ranked 26th in the UK?

I think this is a world list not a UK one.

been recognised as part of Newsweek’s annual World’s Best Hospitals league table.

[Ozyhibby]

I think this is a world list not a UK one.

been recognised as part of Newsweek’s annual World’s Best Hospitals league table.

As far as I can see though it’s UK. It’s not bad but not amazing. The UK top ones are dominated by London because that’s where all the research funding goes. It’s not really a measure of patient care.


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[Stairway 2 7]

These are challenging times for hospitals. COVID-19 put unprecedented stress on health systems, as have inflation and global financial uncertainty. In the U.S. and around the world, leading hospitals are dealing with rising costs, aging populations and a medical workforce exhausted from battling a global pandemic.

Among the hallmarks of great hospitals, however, are not just first-class care, first-class research and first-class innovation. The very best institutions also share another quality: consistency. The world's best hospitals consistently attract the best people and provide the best outcomes for patients as well as the most important new therapies and research. Of all the hospitals in the world, relatively few can do all those things year in and year out. The best belong to a very exclusive club.

To recognize them, Newsweek and global data firm Statista are proud to introduce our fifth annual listing of the World's Best Hospitals 2023. This year, we have ranked over 2,300 hospitals in 28 countries, including one that is new to our list, Taiwan. For the first time, we ranked all top 250 global hospitals. We have also listed the best hospitals by country; each country list also includes a listing of top specialty hospitals.

We have also made other changes. This year we have added an important new pillar to our scoring model: for the first time, hospitals were surveyed regarding their PROMs implementation status. PROMs are defined as standardized, validated questionnaires completed by patients to measure their perception of their functional well-being and quality of life. The World's Best Hospitals 2023 also includes new hospital quality metrics, most notably data from the Israeli National Program for Quality Indicators (INPQ) for Israel and the Danish Clinical Quality Program for Denmark. And we have added new accreditations for Thailand and Taiwan to the scoring model (For more details on the ranking criteria, see Methodology.)

The goal of this study is to provide a data-based comparison of hospital reputation and performance across countries. We hope this will be useful to patients and families seeking the best care for themselves and loved ones, as well as to hospitals as they benchmark themselves against their peers.



1 St Thomas' Hospital 89.40% London
2 University College Hospital 87.66% London
3 Addenbrooke's 83.19% Cambridge
4 Guy's Hospital 82.89% London
5 John Radcliffe Hospital 81.62% Oxford
6 St. Bartholomew's Hospital 81.02% London
7 Freeman Hospital 80.83% Newcastle upon Tyne
8 The Royal Victoria Infirmary 80.74% Newcastle upon Tyne
9 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital 80.71% London
10 Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham 80.62% Birmingham
11 King's College Hospital 77.19% London
12 St Richard's Hospital 76.55% Chichester
13 London Bridge Hospital 76.46% London
14 The Royal London Hospital 76.44% London
15 Salford Royal 76.42% Salford
16 Leeds General Infirmary 76.33% Leeds
17 East Surrey Hospital 75.76% Redhill
18 Wythenshawe Hospital 75.58% Manchester
19 Worthing Hospital 75.43% Worthing
20 Bristol Royal Infirmary 74.84% Bristol
21 Hexham General Hospital 74.72% Hexham
22 St Mary's Hospital 74.68% London
23 Frimley Park Hospital 73.81% Camberley
24 Manchester Royal Infirmary 73.43% Manchester
25 Royal Free Hospital 73.33% London
26 Glasgow Royal Infirmary 73.17% Glasgow
27 The London Independent Hospital 73.14% London
28 Royal Berkshire Hospital 73.13% Reading
29 Southampton General Hospital 72.85% Southampton
30 Northern General Hospital 72.33% Sheffield
31 St Helens Hospital 72.28% St. Helens
32 Royal Derby Hospital 72.27% Derby
33 Homerton University Hospital 72.09% London
34 Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh at Little France 71.75% Edinburgh

[Ozyhibby]

Has there been any response from Sarwar on Tory suggestions of rolling back devolution or has he gone all shy again?


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[marinello59]

I think this is a world list not a UK one.

been recognised as part of Newsweek’s annual World’s Best Hospitals league table.

I got that. :greengrin
The link the poster put up that I was responding to seemed to be claiming that Scotland had the top three in the UK.

[Santa Cruz]

Has there been any response from Sarwar on Tory suggestions of rolling back devolution or has he gone all shy again?


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No idea. There's a video on youtube with him being interviewed by the DR Editor, certainly mentions more devolved powers he would see as a benefit. Got a thanks from the STUC Gen Sec at the latest conference for joining workers on the picket line.

[Santa Cruz]

I got that. :greengrin
The link the poster put up that I was responding to seemed to be claiming that Scotland had the top three in the UK.

I thought it was UK wide only too. I never read it properly.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1648989149356015616?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Alistair Darling worried the UK can’t afford our pensions. [emoji102]
Shameless.


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[marinello59]

Has there been any response from Sarwar on Tory suggestions of rolling back devolution or has he gone all shy again?


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Maybe he is giving a newspaper opinion piece from a crackpot Tory all the attention it deserves. :greengrin
I see Joanna Cherry has praised the Scottish Tories for calling Frost out. I’m not so sure anybody will see his ramblings as anything other than attention seeking garbage. It doesn’t really need to be said.

[Ozyhibby]

The way I read it was the 3 Scottish hospitals are ahead of ant other UK hospitals and in the top 40 of the 2300 marked worldwide. Prett impressive for a small country

I can see why you might think that because the quality of the STV article is so poor. I looked up the source though and that’s not the case. The Scottish hospitals do ok in a UK sense but not much better.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I can see why you might think that because the quality of the STV article is so poor. I looked up the source though and that’s not the case. The Scottish hospitals do ok in a UK sense but not much better.


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Aye the article is awful ha. Table probably not much better. Edinburgh is a great hospital although the staff are underpaid and undervalued

[Skol]

Has there been any response from Sarwar on Tory suggestions of rolling back devolution or has he gone all shy again?


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I didn’t think frost held a role in the Tory government anymore?

[marinello59]

I didn’t think frost held a role in the Tory government anymore?

He doesn’t

[Skol]

So it’s a bit like saying kate Forbes is setting snp policy :-)

[Mibbes Aye]

So it’s a bit like saying kate Forbes is setting snp policy :-)

Eh? It's the Greens who tell the SNP what they can and cannot do :greengrin

[Skol]

Eh? It's the Greens who tell the SNP what they can and cannot do :greengrin

They have more influence than frost. Probably with fewer votes although I haven’t checked that fact.

[ronaldo7]

I didn’t think frost held a role in the Tory government anymore?

Malcolm Offord on the other hand seems to be telling Scotland what to think though. Remember him? He lost an election in Scotland only to be put into the house of lords and is now making policy for us...all unelected.

Happy with that, or are the party you support still going to abolish the house of lords?

[Kato]

He doesn’tHe doesn't but they made him a Lord. Which means he can say what he wants and he's supposed to be taken seriously even though he is an abject moron.

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[ronaldo7]

He doesn’t

How do these guys get their stories in the papers?

Shocking to think we have to see it in every day parlance.

It's like they have control/pals in the media.

[Jack]

Eh? It's the Greens who tell the SNP what they can and cannot do :greengrin

Mibbes Aye and Mibbes naw!

[ronaldo7]

Mibbes Aye and Mibbes naw!

Definitely a Mibbes Naw. Wheesht for the union.

[Ozyhibby]

He doesn't but they made him a Lord. Which means he can say what he wants and he's supposed to be taken seriously even though he is an abject moron.

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People dismissing and under estimating him is how he managed to get us such a hard Brexit.


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[Kato]

People dismissing and under estimating him is how he managed to get us such a hard Brexit.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI reckon he just bumbled, mumbled and instinctively doubled down in those negotiations.

There's not much there other than sound bites and reactionary stances.

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[Skol]

Malcolm Offord on the other hand seems to be telling Scotland what to think though. Remember him? He lost an election in Scotland only to be put into the house of lords and is now making policy for us...all unelected.

Happy with that, or are the party you support still going to abolish the house of lords?

The party I support. Yep nice one

[ronaldo7]

The party I support. Yep nice one

Sorry, I thought you were a Labour supporter. Apologies if this isn't correct.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230421/5c36344ee9c65cc9a1eee42d9ddaf636.jpg

Daily Mail is a hoot. UK is ungovernable but Scots should stay in it.[emoji23]


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[Skol]

The party I support. Yep nice one

Apologies, half asleep when I typed that and clearly didn’t read the whole post properly.

[Glory Lurker]

Apologies, half asleep when I typed that and clearly didn’t read the whole post properly.

No, that's you you're replying to. I'm sure it's all good! Get back to bed, chief! :-)

[Skol]

No, that's you you're replying to. I'm sure it's all good! Get back to bed, chief! :-)

Lol. I’ve made an arse of that twice.

I blame Westminster :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/jenoconnell/status/1650082872831758340?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Ireland awash with money.


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[archie]

https://twitter.com/jenoconnell/status/1650082872831758340?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Ireland awash with money.


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Did you read the article?

[Ozyhibby]

https://bylines.scot/democracy/the-challenge-for-labour-in-scotland/

Best article I’ve read on the subject for a long time. Wasn’t sure which thread to put it in. Labour one might have been more appropriate.


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[Skol]

I see Yousafs new strategy for independence is the very one that I and other independence sceptics suggested as the only sensible approach. In fact Forbes outlined that as her approach.

Will it be shot down or welcomed?

[marinello59]

I see Yousafs new strategy for independence is the very one that I and other independence sceptics suggested as the only sensible approach. In fact Forbes outlined that as her approach.

Will it be shot down or welcomed?

We’ve come a long way from planned special conferences and de-facto referendums in a very short time. A pragmatic move from Yousaf maybe, Indy suddenly seems much further away than it has been for a long time.

[JimBHibees]

We’ve come a long way from planned special conferences and de-facto referendums in a very short time. A pragmatic move from Yousaf maybe, Indy suddenly seems much further away than it has been for a long time.

Depressingly so given the most extreme uk government in history.

[Skol]

Depressingly so given the most extreme uk government in history.

Ironically if sturgeon had a proper strategy, things could have been different.

[Ozyhibby]

You can’t have a strategy for breaking the law


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[Skol]

You can’t have a strategy for breaking the law


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That is a bit of a bizarre post. I assume you are saying this as you feel there is no legal avenue to independence. Conveniently ignoring that there is a legal route. However to open that up you need to demonstrate there is widespread support. That was never achieved.

[Jack]

That is a bit of a bizarre post. I assume you are saying this as you feel there is no legal avenue to independence. Conveniently ignoring that there is a legal route. However to open that up you need to demonstrate there is widespread support. That was never achieved.

It wasn't demonstrated the last time.

[Skol]

It wasn't demonstrated the last time.

Indeed. The aim for the SNP should be to get sustained support comfortably in excess of 50%. If that was achieved independence will happen, and possibly without a referendum if the support is clearly in the majority. Hovering either side of 50%, mostly just under, doesn’t show that’s what scotland wants.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That is a bit of a bizarre post. I assume you are saying this as you feel there is no legal avenue to independence. Conveniently ignoring that there is a legal route. However to open that up you need to demonstrate there is widespread support. That was never achieved.

There was no demonstration of wide spread support for Brexit pre-referendum. But the UK still voted in favour of it (allegedly).

[archie]

There was no demonstration of wide spread support for Brexit pre-referendum. But the UK still voted in favour of it (allegedly).

Are you saying the vote was fixed?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Are you saying the vote was fixed?

I'm saying we allegedly voted in favour of it, despite there being no wide spread support for it before the referendum took place. If brexit didn't require wide spread support pre-referendum, then why would a vote on Scottish Independence?

[Ozyhibby]

That is a bit of a bizarre post. I assume you are saying this as you feel there is no legal avenue to independence. Conveniently ignoring that there is a legal route. However to open that up you need to demonstrate there is widespread support. That was never achieved.

Explain the legal route to a referendum?


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[Skol]

Explain the legal route to a referendum?


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Was 2014 illegal?

[McD]

I'm saying we allegedly voted in favour of it, despite there being no wide spread support for it before the referendum took place. If brexit didn't require wide spread support pre-referendum, then why would a vote on Scottish Independence?


there’s no ‘allegedly’ about it. We did vote for brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

Was 2014 illegal?

So all we need to do is have a vote in the Scottish Parliament and if we win, request a s30 order and it will be granted?


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[Skol]

Maybe demonstrate that a majority of Scots are in favour and it will be undeniable.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe demonstrate that a majority of Scots are in favour and it will be undeniable.

We have. We returned a parliament in favour of a referendum.
Show me the legal route?


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[Just Alf]

So all we need to do is have a vote in the Scottish Parliament and if we win, request a s30 order and it will be granted?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat was the legal route right enough.


Funny how when folks say there's a legal route then get asked what it is they go all quiet as that one isn't in place.

At the moment it seems like the UK Gov has "switched off" previous legal route?

Unless someone can show me proof otherwise?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

there’s no ‘allegedly’ about it. We did vote for brexit.

But there was no real demand for Brexit before parliament approved the referendum. So why does a referendum on Scottish Independence require there to be?

Could it be that when a referendum is approved, it stirs up support for the underdog? So by effectively making it illegal to have a referendum until there's enough support, they prevent any further momentum from building?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/johnwdwhite/status/1652010150021017603?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good launch for the new Union Together campaign.[emoji106]


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://twitter.com/johnwdwhite/status/1652010150021017603?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good launch for the new Union Together campaign.[emoji106]


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They certainly know their audience.

[cabbageandribs1875]

(3) Angus B MacNeil MP🇺🇦 on Twitter: "The defacto answer here is, the the UK PM would accept the result of a defacto independence referendum!! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 The reality is for international purposes, he has to!! 🇺🇳 Now for all the SNP to grasp this pretty simple reality!! 👍" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1651901769398509568?t=0uJfjJwKQr9410SO6UFV-w&s=19&fbclid=IwAR2G-Y6se7j9impSD5-7mA2c8hSAG6FmpmfGcGsNnqaWRXx06zOFYjfFr2E)

just answer the damn Q wee man

[Skol]

We have. We returned a parliament in favour of a referendum.
Show me the legal route?


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Return a majority of snp MPs or show sustained polling in favour. Ideally 55%+, but could be less as long as it had been above 50% for a long time.

[Ozyhibby]

Return a majority of snp MPs or show sustained polling in favour. Ideally 55%+, but could be less as long as it had been above 50% for a long time.

That’s just you making that up. I don’t want to play down your importance but you really need to show a more authorities source?


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[Skol]

That’s just you making that up. I don’t want to play down your importance but you really need to show a more authorities source?


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Ah but you know there isn’t one. So why don’t you just disband the snp and give up. Waste of time, never happening.

What I am saying is that if you really want independence, build a case. Demonstrate it’s the better way. Build support. If you do that it will happen whether I or Rishi sunak or whoever the PM is like it.

Alternatively carry on as you are and nothing will change. It needs a complete change of thinking and approach. All I hear though are moans about no legal route. There will be if you build support. That’s not for me to do.

[degenerated]

Return a majority of snp MPs or show sustained polling in favour. Ideally 55%+, but could be less as long as it had been above 50% for a long time.There is a majority of SNP MPs and has been since 2015.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What I am saying is that if you really want independence, build a case. Demonstrate it’s the better way. Build support. If you do that it will happen whether I or Rishi sunak or whoever the PM is like it.

No, they'll shift the goal posts again. It's what they do.

[Skol]

There is a majority of SNP MPs and has been since 2015.

No there isn’t.

[Ozyhibby]

No there isn’t.

Why does it have to be SNP MSP’s?


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[Ozyhibby]

No there isn’t.

There is in Scotland.


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[Skol]

Crossed purposes. I was meaning msps at Holyrood.

No snp mp majority though but I will concede they have the majority of Scottish mps. But that’s not relevant.

2014 happened because snp had a Holyrood majority. Deliver that again and whoever is on cannot say no.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Crossed purposes. I was meaning msps at Holyrood.

No snp mp majority though but I will concede they have the majority of Scottish mps. But that’s not relevant.

2014 happened because snp had a Holyrood majority. Deliver that again and whoever is on cannot say no.

What different does that make? They were in a majority coalition with another party that backs Scottish Independence. Or do coalitions not apply to Holyrood when it comes to getting political mandates through?

[Ozyhibby]

Crossed purposes. I was meaning msps at Holyrood.

No snp mp majority though but I will concede they have the majority of Scottish mps. But that’s not relevant.

2014 happened because snp had a Holyrood majority. Deliver that again and whoever is on cannot say no.

Who says that?


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[degenerated]

No there isn’t.In Scotland there most definitely a majority of SNP MPs

[degenerated]

Crossed purposes. I was meaning msps at Holyrood.

No snp mp majority though but I will concede they have the majority of Scottish mps. But that’s not relevant.

2014 happened because snp had a Holyrood majority. Deliver that again and whoever is on cannot say no.On that basis Scotland should become independent because there isn't a majority of Tory MSPs

[Skol]

What different does that make? They were in a majority coalition with another party that backs Scottish Independence. Or do coalitions not apply to Holyrood when it comes to getting political mandates through?

The 2014 precedent was a majority snp at Holyrood. I know you can argue an Indy majority now but that isn’t the same as 2014.

I have said before I would like Westminster to be clear on what the circumstances should be.

The fact remains it’s on the snp to prove the case. Not having a majority in support is a reason that means Westminster can say no. You can try and change that or you can continue as you are. Current policy though hasn’t worked.

[degenerated]

The 2014 precedent was a majority snp at Holyrood. I know you can argue an Indy majority now but that isn’t the same as 2014.

I have said before I would like Westminster to be clear on what the circumstances should be.

The fact remains it’s on the snp to prove the case. Not having a majority in support is a reason that means Westminster can say no. You can try and change that or you can continue as you are. Current policy though hasn’t worked.So the new unionist position is that were only allowed one political party to represent our views?

[Ozyhibby]

So the new unionist position is that were only allowed one political party to represent our views?

For now. They’ll let us know if there are future hurdles to be put in place.
Fact is, there is no democratic route to Indy.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

The 2014 precedent was a majority snp at Holyrood.

Where is this precedent written into law? The SNP achieved a majority in 2011 in a parliament that was set up in such a way as to make majorities as close to impossible as possible. The list system weighs heavily against the party with the highest vote share. If Holyrood was set up to function like Westminster, the SNP would have a sizeable majority in Holyrood right now, which is exactly why it isn't.

[degenerated]

For now. They’ll let us know if there are future hurdles to be put in place.
Fact is, there is no democratic route to Indy.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNext it will be that SNP voter numbers or seat numbers have to be divided by three because there are three unionist parties.

[ronaldo7]

So the new unionist position is that were only allowed one political party to represent our views?

That big bag of alternative facts must be getting low. :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

That is a bit of a bizarre post. I assume you are saying this as you feel there is no legal avenue to independence. Conveniently ignoring that there is a legal route. However to open that up you need to demonstrate there is widespread support. That was never achieved.

I am just catching up and have only read this far, but this reads like you are saying there is a constitutional route that is linked to opinion polls. Of course there isn't.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe demonstrate that a majority of Scots are in favour and it will be undeniable.

As you have repeated the same thing James used to post, I'll reply the same way.


To demonstrate that the majority are in favour the best way would be to hold a referendum.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

To demonstrate that the majority are in favour the best way would be to hold a referendum.

Exactly this. But they won't. Because doing so would trigger a new wave of momentum from a fresh campaign. Except this time it would be from around 45% support rather than the 25% of the previous one.

The whole purpose of making it so that support has to be 50%+ before there can even be a campaign is to prevent the campaign momentum required to build support over the 50%+ mark.

[Skol]

As you have repeated the same thing James used to post, I'll reply the same way.


To demonstrate that the majority are in favour the best way would be to hold a referendum.

I agree with that and go back to what I have said before. I want Westminster to outline what the criteria is for a referendum.

I still think though that the snp are not helping themselves right now and in fact haven’t for many years. The current strategy works for those already converted.

[Skol]

I am just catching up and have only read this far, but this reads like you are saying there is a constitutional route that is linked to opinion polls. Of course there isn't.

What I am saying is opinion polls consistently in favour and a reasonable margin above 50% could not be ignored

[Stairway 2 7]

What I am saying is opinion polls consistently in favour and a reasonable margin above 50% could not be ignored

That's what that's what the SNP first minister says he now wants before going for independence "sustained and clear leads in the polling". He was ripping Ash Regan for wanting to tell Westminster that we are demanding a referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree with that and go back to what I have said before. I want Westminster to outline what the criteria is for a referendum.

I still think though that the snp are not helping themselves right now and in fact haven’t for many years. The current strategy works for those already converted.

Why should Westminster decide on the criteria?

The Scottish Government has asked on numerous occasions and has never been given an answer, why do you think that is going to change?

[The Modfather]

What I am saying is opinion polls consistently in favour and a reasonable margin above 50% could not be ignored

How do you choose what opinion polls to use? We’ve seen on here only too well how easy it is for both sides to selectively point to opinion polls. We often get one side putting up a current poll only for the other side to put another current poll that shows the exact opposite.

[McD]

But there was no real demand for Brexit before parliament approved the referendum. So why does a referendum on Scottish Independence require there to be?

Could it be that when a referendum is approved, it stirs up support for the underdog? So by effectively making it illegal to have a referendum until there's enough support, they prevent any further momentum from building?


all of that is unrelated to what you said. There is no ‘allegedly’ about the brexit vote. We did vote to leave the EU, there’s nothing alleged about that.

I voted to remain btw, so I’m not saying this from some smug winning position.

[danhibees1875]

How do you choose what opinion polls to use? We’ve seen on here only too well how easy it is for both sides to selectively point to opinion polls. We often get one side putting up a current poll only for the other side to put another current poll that shows the exact opposite.

I think this includes them all...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

[Glory Lurker]

Party says "vote for us if you want this policy". Party wins, by the rules of the game.

Adding an opinion poll second stage is effectively saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for.

Too stupid, if you will.

[archie]

I'm saying we allegedly voted in favour of it, despite there being no wide spread support for it before the referendum took place. If brexit didn't require wide spread support pre-referendum, then why would a vote on Scottish Independence?

Allegedly suggests you think the vote was rigged. Do you think that?

[archie]

Why should Westminster decide on the criteria?

The Scottish Government has asked on numerous occasions and has never been given an answer, why do you think that is going to change?

Because it's a reserved matter.

[Hibrandenburg]

Party says "vote for us if you want this policy". Party wins, by the rules of the game.

Adding an opinion poll second stage is effectively saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for.

Too stupid, if you will.

I'd put it slightly different. Party/parties stands on a mandate to hold a referendum and the electorate choose that party in a free and legal election. Party/parties cannot deliver that mandate because another government refuses to allow them to carryout the wishes of that electorate meaning that electorate are disenfranchised from democracy. It really is that simple.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

all of that is unrelated to what you said. There is no ‘allegedly’ about the brexit vote. We did vote to leave the EU, there’s nothing alleged about that.

I voted to remain btw, so I’m not saying this from some smug winning position.

How can you be so certain?


Allegedly suggests you think the vote was rigged. Do you think that?

No, otherwise I would have just said rigged. I say 'allegedly' because there's no definitive proof of legitimate referendum outcomes, leaving it open to uncertainty.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Because it's a reserved matter.

Good to know that Scottish Democracy is reserved to another country in 2023.

[archie]

Good to know that Scottish Democracy is reserved to another country in 2023.

It's not though.

[archie]

How can you be so certain?



No, otherwise I would have just said rigged. I say 'allegedly' because there's no definitive proof of legitimate referendum outcomes, leaving it open to uncertainty.

That's the same with any binary referendum unless you have a confirmatory vote. Are you suggesting that a Scottish independence referendum would have a further vote on the deal?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It's not though.

It evidently is. Unless you buy into the whole "the UK is one big country" mantra. I'm sure the soviets said the same kind of thing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because it's a reserved matter.

Thanks for the insight. A referendum will never be held because it's a reserved matter.


So how do the people of Scotland decide whether they wish to live in an independent country?

[Stairway 2 7]

Party says "vote for us if you want this policy". Party wins, by the rules of the game.

Adding an opinion poll second stage is effectively saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for.

Too stupid, if you will.

The only caveat would be is that it's the leader of the independence party that's saying we should wait until a clear lead in the polls. He might be too stupid but I think Forbes said similar and only Regan wanted more immediate action

[archie]

Thanks for the insight. A referendum will never be held because it's a reserved matter.


So how do the people of Scotland decide whether they wish to live in an independent country?

You can't say it will never be held because one was.

[Stairway 2 7]

It evidently is. Unless you buy into the whole "the UK is one big country" mantra. I'm sure the soviets said the same kind of thing.

Difference is unfortunately Scots literally voted to stay a part of the union. Polls are Polls but there is so many showing a lead for no that it's pretty clear that they obviously slightly lead. Inconvenient truth is were pretty clearly split down the middle. Think the obvious choice would be more powers a devolved max would definitely win I reckon, but both sides not interested

[archie]

It evidently is. Unless you buy into the whole "the UK is one big country" mantra. I'm sure the soviets said the same kind of thing.

I don't understand why you relating it to the Soviet Union? The UK is a unitary state.

[archie]

I'd put it slightly different. Party/parties stands on a mandate to hold a referendum and the electorate choose that party in a free and legal election. Party/parties cannot deliver that mandate because another government refuses to allow them to carryout the wishes of that electorate meaning that electorate are disenfranchised from democracy. It really is that simple.
It not unusual for countries to limit the scope of devolved administration's. It's not, in itself, undemocratic. If a Bavarian party stood on a mandate of declaring war on France, the German government wouldn't allow it. Would you see that as undemocratic?

[Kato]

I don't understand why you relating it to the Soviet Union? The UK is a unitary state.Explain how the UK is uniform across its political entities. There are loads of diversities and differences.

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[Skol]

Party says "vote for us if you want this policy". Party wins, by the rules of the game.

Adding an opinion poll second stage is effectively saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for.

Too stupid, if you will.

Technically if the public thought they were voting for a referendum then they didn’t know what they were voting for. Hence why it needs to be clear what the criteria are.

[Skol]

Good to know that Scottish Democracy is reserved to another country in 2023.

Of course if it had been devolved, we would now be independent despite there not being a majority in favour. That wouldn’t be exactly democratic.

The point still remains, build support consistently and sufficiently in excess of 50% and independence will happen. Continue to carry out these divisive arguments and you are doing nothing to advance the cause.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Difference is unfortunately Scots literally voted to stay a part of the union. Polls are Polls but there is so many showing a lead for no that it's pretty clear that they obviously slightly lead. Inconvenient truth is were pretty clearly split down the middle. Think the obvious choice would be more powers a devolved max would definitely win I reckon, but both sides not interested

The Scots actually voted in favour of Scottish Independence, it was votes from other residents living in Scotland that swung it the other way. Just as EU residents living in the UK would have swung the Brexit vote the other way, had that referendum been ran on the same rules as the Scottish Independence referendum.

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?

[Kato]

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?

True. There was a vote though. A minority of members of the then independent Scottish Parliament voted for it and won due to abstentions/absence.

Cleaned up on the cash front too given the bribes and honours being showered around.

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[marinello59]

The Scots actually voted in favour of Scottish Independence, it was votes from other residents living in Scotland that swung it the other way. Just as EU residents living in the UK would have swung the Brexit vote the other way, had that referendum been ran on the same rules as the Scottish Independence referendum.

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?


Nicola Sturgeon defined the Scots as the people who live here which is a beautifully inclusive definition.

What’s your definition?

[Stairway 2 7]

The Scots actually voted in favour of Scottish Independence, it was votes from other residents living in Scotland that swung it the other way. Just as EU residents living in the UK would have swung the Brexit vote the other way, had that referendum been ran on the same rules as the Scottish Independence referendum.

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?
I'm not a bigot so by Scots I mean people who live here. Brexit vote should have been open to all as well, it effected everyone as we're finding out.

[Glory Lurker]

The only caveat would be is that it's the leader of the independence party that's saying we should wait until a clear lead in the polls. He might be too stupid but I think Forbes said similar and only Regan wanted more immediate action

Well, they are stupid.

[Glory Lurker]

Technically if the public thought they were voting for a referendum then they didn’t know what they were voting for. Hence why it needs to be clear what the criteria are.

I don't follow?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Nicola Sturgeon defined the Scots as the people who live here which is a beautifully inclusive definition.

What’s your definition?

I've nothing against inclusivity, I do however have a problem with selective inclusivity, something that Westminster is particularly good at.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm not a bigot so by Scots I mean people who live here. Brexit vote should have been open to all as well, it effected everyone as we're finding out.

But the Brexit vote wasn't open to all. So by your own definition of bigot, you'll agree that Westminster is a bigoted institution?

[marinello59]

I've nothing against inclusivity, I do however have a problem with selective inclusivity, something that Westminster is particularly good at.

You haven’t answered the question.

What is your definition of Scots?

Edit..I’m just trying to make sense of your previous answer, I may be missing something.

[Stairway 2 7]

But the Brexit vote wasn't open to all. So by your own definition of bigot, you'll agree that Westminster is a bigoted institution?

Obviously

[archie]

Explain how the UK is uniform across its political entities. There are loads of diversities and differences.

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What do you mean! There is the Westminster parliament. There are then levels of devolution that vary in terms of scope, responsibilities and intensity. There is then further devolution to local authorities and other planning authorities. These differences are for a number of historical reasons. While there is variation (a good thing surely) that doesn't affect the overall constitutional arrangements.

[archie]

But the Brexit vote wasn't open to all. So by your own definition of bigot, you'll agree that Westminster is a bigoted institution?

What on earth does this even mean?

[archie]

The Scots actually voted in favour of Scottish Independence, it was votes from other residents living in Scotland that swung it the other way. Just as EU residents living in the UK would have swung the Brexit vote the other way, had that referendum been ran on the same rules as the Scottish Independence referendum.

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?

The Scottish Government chose the franchise for the 2014 referendum. What criteria do you think they should have chosen?

[McD]

How can you be so certain?



No, otherwise I would have just said rigged. I say 'allegedly' because there's no definitive proof of legitimate referendum outcomes, leaving it open to uncertainty.


I'm as certain as I am for any referendum or election - what proof do you have that there wasn’t a majority voted for brexit? If you have none, then saying allegedly just makes you look like a conspiracy crank.

what definitive proof do you want? And is it fair to assume you’d want it for every election and referendum?

[McD]

The Scots actually voted in favour of Scottish Independence, it was votes from other residents living in Scotland that swung it the other way. Just as EU residents living in the UK would have swung the Brexit vote the other way, had that referendum been ran on the same rules as the Scottish Independence referendum.

You realize we never voted to be part of the "union" in the first place right?


genuine question, is there published stats that prove this point?

[Kato]

What do you mean! There is the Westminster parliament. There are then levels of devolution that vary in terms of scope, responsibilities and intensity. There is then further devolution to local authorities and other planning authorities. These differences are for a number of historical reasons. While there is variation (a good thing surely) that doesn't affect the overall constitutional arrangements.

Differences, variations, devolution, regional governments, a different set of trade rules in Northern Ireland, different tax laws for Scotland, different tax laws for the City of London.

None of this suggests a uniform state where all the parts are the same.

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[archie]

Differences, variations, devolution, regional governments, a different set of trade rules in Northern Ireland, different tax laws for Scotland, different tax laws for the City of London.

None of this suggests a uniform state where all the parts are the same.

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I didn’t say it was a uniform state. I said it was a unitary state. None of what you have set out changes that.

[Kato]

I didn’t say it was a uniform state. I said it was a unitary state. None of what you have set out changes that.I only want to point out that there are large differences and benefits given to some parts of the UK which are disallowed to others.

You can pick the seeds out the semantics if you like.

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[archie]

I only want to point out that there are large differences and benefits given to some parts of the UK which are disallowed to others.

You can pick the seeds out the semantics if you like.

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I thought you were contesting that the UK was a unitary state. Disallowed is an odd way to frame it. Wales and Scotland, for example voted for different levels of devolution.

[Jack]

I thought you were contesting that the UK was a unitary state. Disallowed is an odd way to frame it. Wales and Scotland, for example voted for different levels of devolution.

Scotland and Wales were offered a vote on different levels of devolution decided by Westminster.

[JeMeSouviens]

genuine question, is there published stats that prove this point?

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

It’s a post ref survey. Actual voting stats would obvs be impossible in a secret ballot.*





* apart from Ruth knowing the postal returns:wink:

[degenerated]

Scotland and Wales were offered a vote on different levels of devolution decided by Westminster.The least amount of power transfer they thought would put us back in our box.

[Kato]

I thought you were contesting that the UK was a unitary state. Disallowed is an odd way to frame it. Wales and Scotland, for example voted for different levels of devolution.I never mentioned disallowed anything.

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[Skol]

Wings have an interesting thought of a missed opportunity by Yousaf to get an S30 in return for allowing Charles to be crowned on the Stone of Destiny.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wings have an interesting thought of a missed opportunity by Yousaf to get an S30 in return for allowing Charles to be crowned on the Stone of Destiny.

“allowing” ? He runs the parish council, not the castle.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

It’s a post ref survey. Actual voting stats would obvs be impossible in a secret ballot.*





* apart from Ruth knowing the postal returns:wink:

A poll by yougov? Not that it matters as everyone who believes they are Scottish, are Scottish imo

[archie]

I never mentioned disallowed anything.

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????

[archie]

Scotland and Wales were offered a vote on different levels of devolution decided by Westminster.

Yes, that's right. There was less enthusiasm in Wales as reflected in the majority in the referendum in Wales.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, that's right. There was less enthusiasm in Wales as reflected in the majority in the referendum in Wales.

There is lots of enthusiasm in Scotland for being in the SM and CU like Northern Ireland.


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[archie]

There is lots of enthusiasm in Scotland for being in the SM and CU like Northern Ireland.


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If only our MPs had voted for it...

[Kato]

If only our MPs had voted for it...When was that available archie?

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[archie]

When was that available archie?

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Discussed here. Ken Clarke amendment.

[Kato]

????Yes, apologies. I thought you were answering in terms of specific laws, re seperate discussion above.

It's the framework that exists though. Northern Ireland is allowed to trade with the EU. By the very use of the word "allow" it implies areas outwith NI that are disallowed. The City of London is allowed to trade on terms disallowed the rest of the UK.

It's more an aggregate nation than a unitary one. Bits and bobs of land some legal divergences inherited through history, as you say, and others designed purely for convenience or profit.

The "state" is the UK Govt, the splinters and shrapnel diverge because they either have never been in line or because of some need.

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[Kato]

Discussed here. Ken Clarke amendment.Never viable that we would have went down that route. The temperature of the cabal who love brexit the most was roasty, and the roasters would have accepted nothing other than as clean a break as possible. The more of a shambles the better.

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[archie]

Never viable that we would have went down that route. The temperature of the cabal who love brexit the most was roasty, and the roasters would have accepted nothing other than as clean a break as possible. The more of a shambles the better.

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We'll never know.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes, apologies. I thought you were answering in terms of specific laws, re seperate discussion above.

It's the framework that exists though. Northern Ireland is allowed to trade with the EU. By the very use of the word "allow" it implies areas outwith NI that are disallowed. The City of London is allowed to trade on terms disallowed the rest of the UK.

It's more an aggregate nation than a unitary one. Bits and bobs of land some legal divergences inherited through history, as you say, and others designed purely for convenience or profit.

The "state" is the UK Govt, the splinters and shrapnel diverge because they either have never been in line or because of some need.

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There's a few interesting points in there. Regarding the discussion about who or what is a 'state' I would throw something into the mix, despite not really being bothered, it's just a point of interest.

The police must surely be seen by many as agents of the 'state' and I mean that in a very neutral sense, not negatively. They are accountable to Scottish ministers. But also, in Scotland you also have a whole raft of non-departmental public bodies or executive agencies, with their own board and chief executive but accountable to ministers, with their fundng and direction informed and set by SG. Many of those agencies have statutory powers, albeit situational, that exceed those of the police - it's hard to argue they aren't an arm of the state, especially when they are ensuring compliance with various pieces of Scottish legislation.

Even at local authority level, you have departments and professionals who have statutory powers to act and enforce legislation, often with more freedom than the police. One good example is the powers held to enter premises - again situational and with its own constraints - where the relevant council officer can direct the police to force entry fpr them, without a warrant, to a home or business if deemed necessary.

So, for me the 'state' isn't the UK or Scotland, it's not Westminster or Holyrood, it's not Whitehall or St Andrew's House, it's elements of those and many other things as well. And despite the best efforts of the Tories, even things like the ECHR and the UNHCR still exert something on the continuum between influence and direction on our lives.

[McD]

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

It’s a post ref survey. Actual voting stats would obvs be impossible in a secret ballot.*





* apart from Ruth knowing the postal returns:wink:


thank you :aok:

some interesting info in there, never seen it before

[Ozyhibby]

thank you :aok:

some interesting info in there, never seen it before

It’s interesting but only marginally. I would never want to go down the route of saying some people are more Scottish than others. You live here, your eligible to vote, then your Scottish. That’s good enough for me.


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[archie]

Yes, apologies. I thought you were answering in terms of specific laws, re seperate discussion above.

It's the framework that exists though. Northern Ireland is allowed to trade with the EU. By the very use of the word "allow" it implies areas outwith NI that are disallowed. The City of London is allowed to trade on terms disallowed the rest of the UK.

It's more an aggregate nation than a unitary one. Bits and bobs of land some legal divergences inherited through history, as you say, and others designed purely for convenience or profit.

The "state" is the UK Govt, the splinters and shrapnel diverge because they either have never been in line or because of some need.

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I think that definition of UKG being the state is too narrow. Let me give an example. If the UKG decided to make judicial reforms such as ending some jury trials, that would, by your definition, be changes made by the state. But if the Scottish Government was doing it, by your definition, it wouldn't be changes made the state. Clearly that can't be right.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that definition of UKG being the state is too narrow. Let me give an example. If the UKG decided to make judicial reforms such as ending some jury trials, that would, by your definition, be changes made by the state. But if the Scottish Government was doing it, by your definition, it wouldn't be changes made the state. Clearly that can't be right.

Only one of those bodies would actually be able to do that without the permission of the other.


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[McD]

It’s interesting but only marginally. I would never want to go down the route of saying some people are more Scottish than others. You live here, your eligible to vote, then your Scottish. That’s good enough for me.


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totally agree

[Kato]

I think that definition of UKG being the state is too narrow. Let me give an example. If the UKG decided to make judicial reforms such as ending some jury trials, that would, by your definition, be changes made by the state. But if the Scottish Government was doing it, by your definition, it wouldn't be changes made the state. Clearly that can't be right.Wouldn't that go to the UK supreme Court before a Scottish govt could make such a change.

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[Kato]

We'll never know.You can make a decent stab at a very good guess.

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[Kato]

There's a few interesting points in there. Regarding the discussion about who or what is a 'state' I would throw something into the mix, despite not really being bothered, it's just a point of interest.

The police must surely be seen by many as agents of the 'state' and I mean that in a very neutral sense, not negatively. They are accountable to Scottish ministers. But also, in Scotland you also have a whole raft of non-departmental public bodies or executive agencies, with their own board and chief executive but accountable to ministers, with their fundng and direction informed and set by SG. Many of those agencies have statutory powers, albeit situational, that exceed those of the police - it's hard to argue they aren't an arm of the state, especially when they are ensuring compliance with various pieces of Scottish legislation.

Even at local authority level, you have departments and professionals who have statutory powers to act and enforce legislation, often with more freedom than the police. One good example is the powers held to enter premises - again situational and with its own constraints - where the relevant council officer can direct the police to force entry fpr them, without a warrant, to a home or business if deemed necessary.

So, for me the 'state' isn't the UK or Scotland, it's not Westminster or Holyrood, it's not Whitehall or St Andrew's House, it's elements of those and many other things as well. And despite the best efforts of the Tories, even things like the ECHR and the UNHCR still exert something on the continuum between influence and direction on our lives.I agree that yours is a more nuanced version of my broadbrush. You describe state tools and institutions. Something as banal as the Scottish Portrait Gallery is a a state institution. They all report back to what is generally regarded as "the state", that being parliament and its depts.

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[archie]

Wouldn't that go to the UK supreme Court before a Scottish govt could make such a change.

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It's not a requirement that the Supreme Court clear Scottish legislation.

[Kato]

It's not a requirement that the Supreme Court clear Scottish legislation.Yet it could hauled up if they wished.

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[archie]

Yet it could hauled up if they wished.

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The Supreme Court can't decide to do this on a whim.

[Kato]

The Supreme Court can't decide to do this on a whim.Yet a mechanism exists for it to happen as it is a higher level of govt.

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[TrumpIsAPeado]

The Supreme Court can't decide to do this on a whim.

It can and worse yet, even if it was about to clear it, the UK Government could step in and overrule the court ruling, effectively blocking the legislation.

[Mibbes Aye]

I agree that yours is a more nuanced version of my broadbrush. You describe state tools and institutions. Something as banal as the Scottish Portrait Gallery is a a state institution. They all report back to what is generally regarded as "the state", that being parliament and its depts.

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I suppose that's what makes the intra-state 'conflicts' so interesting whilst so murky. Ministers and their civil servants particularly, not better described IMO than in Richard Crossman's diaries.

[Mibbes Aye]

It can and worse yet, even if it was about to clear it, the UK Government could step in and overrule the court ruling, effectively blocking the legislation.

And yet a fundamental principle of liberal democracy is the separation of powers between the executive, the legislature and the judiciary, with the legislature ultimately having primacy.

The UK and Scotland for that matter stand out because they don't have clear blue water between the executive and the legislature.

[archie]

Yet a mechanism exists for it to happen as it is a higher level of govt.

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It's a function of the Scotland Act if legislation for Scotland impacts on the rest of the UK. Also, the Scottish Government chose to go to the Supreme Court to clarify the referendum legislation. Surely that's a good thing. If we didn't have that mechanism Gina Miller wouldn't have been able to challenge UKG on Brexit issues.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a function of the Scotland Act if legislation for Scotland impacts on the rest of the UK. Also, the Scottish Government chose to go to the Supreme Court to clarify the referendum legislation. Surely that's a good thing. If we didn't have that mechanism Gina Miller wouldn't have been able to challenge UKG on Brexit issues.

Lot of good it did her.


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[Hibrandenburg]

It's a function of the Scotland Act if legislation for Scotland impacts on the rest of the UK. Also, the Scottish Government chose to go to the Supreme Court to clarify the referendum legislation. Surely that's a good thing. If we didn't have that mechanism Gina Miller wouldn't have been able to challenge UKG on Brexit issues.

What happens if legislation in the rest UK impacts Scotland, how do we go about putting a stop to that?

[Jack]

The UK government could dissolve the Scottish Parliament on a whim. I'm not even sure it would need a vote at Westminster.

[archie]

What happens if legislation in the rest UK impacts Scotland, how do we go about putting a stop to that?

Depends if it is reserved or not. If it is a matter that the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for then I don't see how Westminster could legislate.

[Ozyhibby]

Depends if it is reserved or not. If it is a matter that the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for then I don't see how Westminster could legislate.

That is not the case.


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