Ukraine

[Glory Lurker]

I know there is a global conflicts thread but I think this one now needs a thread of its own.

The talks have got nowhere. Russia is making demands the west can't agree to, or at least if they did it would be as bad a '30s appeasement. 2014 showed that Russia won't shy away from aggression. We might be just weeks away from the most significant military action in Europe since 1945. And Putin obviously dreams of reuniting the old Russian empire and attaining the sphere of influence in eastern Europe that the USSR had, so this might just be the start.

Can an invasion of Ukraine possibly be avoided?

[StevieC]

I know there is a global conflicts thread but I think this one now needs a thread of its own.

The talks have got nowhere. Russia is making demands the west can't agree to, or at least if they did it would be as bad a '30s appeasement. 2014 showed that Russia won't shy away from aggression. We might be just weeks away from the most significant military action in Europe since 1945. And Putin obviously dreams of reuniting the old Russian empire and attaining the sphere of influence in eastern Europe that the USSR had, so this might just be the start.

Can an invasion of Ukraine possibly be avoided?

Don't want to seem pedantic, but you mean "futher advances" as Ukraine has already been invaded.

I'll be reading this thread with interest, I saw a lot of misinformation getting spread during the invasion after the 2014 revolution (most gathered from propoganda channels like RT).

[Glory Lurker]

Don't want to seem pedantic, but you mean "futher advances" as Ukraine has already been invaded.

I'll be reading this thread with interest, I saw a lot of misinformation getting spread during the invasion after the 2014 revolution (most gathered from propoganda channels like RT).

You are quite correct. Hopefully me mentioning 2014 earlier in my post shows that's effectively what I mean.

[hibsbollah]

Don't want to seem pedantic, but you mean "futher advances" as Ukraine has already been invaded.

I'll be reading this thread with interest, I saw a lot of misinformation getting spread during the invasion after the 2014 revolution (most gathered from propoganda channels like RT).

There’s a lot of misinformation and absence of context from both sides.

Just for balance, The current Ukrainian govt took power in 2014 after overthrowing the democratically elected pro-Moscow Govt which won a free and fair election in 2010. I think we call this coup ‘the revolution of dignity’ or something very flowery like that. Certainly that’s what it’s called on wiki. I doubt the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine see it that way.

There is a Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine who don’t like their Ukrainian leadership and WANT closer ties with Russia, just as the west of Ukraine feel the opposite way.

We have thousands of NATO troops massing in Ukraine ‘on maneouvers’ just as Russia has thousands of theirs massing on the other side. We tend not to hear about that as much on the BBC.

It’s definitely a mess and hopefully someone steps back from the brink.

[StevieC]

There’s a lot of misinformation and absence of context from both sides.

Just for balance, The current Ukrainian govt took power in 2014 after overthrowing the democratically elected pro-Moscow Govt which won a free and fair election in 2010. I think we call this coup ‘the revolution of dignity’ or something very flowery like that. Certainly that’s what it’s called on wiki. I doubt the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine see it that way.

There is a Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine who don’t like their Ukrainian leadership and WANT closer ties with Russia, just as the west of Ukraine feel the opposite way.

We have thousands of NATO troops massing in Ukraine ‘on maneouvers’ just as Russia has thousands of theirs massing on the other side. We tend not to hear about that as much on the BBC.

It’s definitely a mess and hopefully someone steps back from the brink.

This is the sort of misinformation I am talking about.

Yanukovitch was not elected on a pro-Russian stance, and after his election Ukraine was working towards entry to the European Union. Half way through his (corrupt) tenure he ran out of money and took a huge bung from Russia on the understanding that he put a halt on the European Union aspirations. This was one of the big factors in the unrest and eventual revolution of the people.

A big myth is that Russian speaking Ukrainians are pro-Russian. The majority of my friends in Ukraine are Russian speaking, and I would struggle to find one that has a pro-Russian stance.

I’ve also been to Donbas and Crimea prior to annexation.

[hibsbollah]

This is the sort of misinformation I am talking about.

Yanukovitch was not elected on a pro-Russian stance, and after his election Ukraine was working towards entry to the European Union. Half way through his (corrupt) tenure he ran out of money and took a huge bung from Russia on the understanding that he put a halt on the European Union aspirations. This was one of the big factors in the unrest and eventual revolution of the people.

A big myth is that Russian speaking Ukrainians are pro-Russian. The majority of my friends in Ukraine are Russian speaking, and I would struggle to find one that has a pro-Russian stance.

I’ve also been to Donbas and Crimea prior to annexation.

How is it misinformation? Its historical fact about the coup and the election, which was declared free and fair by international observers. 'Corruption' was the reason given for the coup but theres corruption all over the world, always that doesnt lead to coups of elected regimes.

Opinion polling and actual election results show the Russian speaking majority in the East of the country feel that way. Feel free to post contrary stats or evidence if you've got some.

[Rumble de Thump]

There’s a lot of misinformation and absence of context from both sides.

Just for balance, The current Ukrainian govt took power in 2014 after overthrowing the democratically elected pro-Moscow Govt which won a free and fair election in 2010. I think we call this coup ‘the revolution of dignity’ or something very flowery like that. Certainly that’s what it’s called on wiki. I doubt the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine see it that way.

There is a Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine who don’t like their Ukrainian leadership and WANT closer ties with Russia, just as the west of Ukraine feel the opposite way.

We have thousands of NATO troops massing in Ukraine ‘on maneouvers’ just as Russia has thousands of theirs massing on the other side. We tend not to hear about that as much on the BBC.

It’s definitely a mess and hopefully someone steps back from the brink.

Ukrainians elected a pro-EU Government, which later began working for the Russians against their wishes and best interests.

Something that annoys me about the way the situation is reported in UK media, particularly the BBC, is that they always talk about the Russian military supporting Ukrainian pro-Russian separists in the east of the country. The reality is that Russia had been sending members of its military into eastern Ukraine for years who were pretending to be civilians. Once Russia had mobilised enough of them they began their pro-Russian demonstrations. When Ukrainians counter protested they were unaware at the time they were actually clashing with Russian soldiers.

It's also worth noting that NATO troops have no intention of invading Russia.

[hibsbollah]

Ukrainians elected a pro-EU Government, which later began working for the Russians against their wishes and best interests.

Something that annoys me about the way the situation is reported in UK media, particularly the BBC, is that they always talk about the Russian military supporting Ukrainian pro-Russian separists in the east of the country. The reality is that Russia had been sending members of its military into eastern Ukraine for years who were pretending to be civilians. Once Russia had mobilised enough of them they began their pro-Russian demonstrations. When Ukrainians counter protested they were unaware at the time they were actually clashing with Russian soldiers.

It's also worth noting that NATO troops have no intention of invading Russia.

Im not going to get into finger pointing about who is using misinformation and who isnt, but all of that could just as easily be dismissed as partial and biased commentary by the other side. That Yanukovych was pro-EU and then suddenly started 'working for the Russians...' what does that actually mean? Was he an actual Russian spy? Are the current Ukrainian mob 'working for the EU?' then? Everybody agrees the coup happened just after he wouldnt sign a free trade with the EU. That isnt in itself 'working for the Russians'. Its no different to Boris Johnson going back on his word on the Ulster agreement post Brexit, it happens in politics.

Your second paragraph; i dont really understand, are you suggesting the Russians are sending Russian military people into Eastern Ukraine to skew the demographics and thats why Yanukovych was so popular there? Look at the voting for the 2010 election with a map of who voted who where. Theres no subtlety to the (infant) democracy here, almost everybody in the east and south voted one way and almost everybody in the west voted the other way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#/media/File:%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D 1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1 %83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png

Its much more likely its just a very divided country like many countries are when they are carved up to suit imperial ambitions, it happens all over the world.

For the avoidance of any doubt, im firmly not a fan of Putin. Extremely dangerous and probably psychopathic.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ukrainians elected a pro-EU Government, which later began working for the Russians against their wishes and best interests.

Something that annoys me about the way the situation is reported in UK media, particularly the BBC, is that they always talk about the Russian military supporting Ukrainian pro-Russian separists in the east of the country. The reality is that Russia had been sending members of its military into eastern Ukraine for years who were pretending to be civilians. Once Russia had mobilised enough of them they began their pro-Russian demonstrations. When Ukrainians counter protested they were unaware at the time they were actually clashing with Russian soldiers.

It's also worth noting that NATO troops have no intention of invading Russia.

I think (hope) that's right, but Russians have folk memory of multiple invasions from "the West", Hitler and Napoleon being 2 of the most prominent. They are paranoid about it and not without reason.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/russia-geography-ukraine-syria/413248/

[Rumble de Thump]

Im not going to get into finger pointing about who is using misinformation and who isnt, but all of that could just as easily be dismissed as partial and biased commentary by the other side. That Yanukovych was pro-EU and then suddenly started 'working for the Russians...' what does that actually mean? Was he an actual Russian spy? Are the current Ukrainian mob 'working for the EU?' then? Everybody agrees the coup happened just after he wouldnt sign a free trade with the EU. That isnt in itself 'working for the Russians'. Its no different to Boris Johnson going back on his word on the Ulster agreement post Brexit, it happens in politics.

Your second paragraph; i dont really understand, are you suggesting the Russians are sending Russian military people into Eastern Ukraine to skew the demographics and thats why Yanukovych was so popular there? Look at the voting for the 2010 election with a map of who voted who where. Theres no subtlety to the (infant) democracy here, almost everybody in the east and south voted one way and almost everybody in the west voted the other way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#/media/File:%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D 1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1 %83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png

Its much more likely its just a very divided country like many countries are when they are carved up to suit imperial ambitions, it happens all over the world.

For the avoidance of any doubt, im firmly not a fan of Putin. Extremely dangerous and probably psychopathic.

Sorry. I don't really know what you're talking about. I thought you said Ukrainians elected a pro-Moscow government, then asked how it was misinformation. I was just trying to help you out.

[hibsbollah]

I think (hope) that's right, but Russians have folk memory of multiple invasions from "the West", Hitler and Napoleon being 2 of the most prominent. They are paranoid about it and not without reason.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/russia-geography-ukraine-syria/413248/

Good article. As well as the strategic importance for supply lines etc, I remember doing WW2 at school and Ukraine was described as 'Russia's breadbasket' because of all the rich farmland, Russia couldnt feed its people without it and Hitler wanted it for his Liebensraum project.

[StevieC]

How is it misinformation? Its historical fact about the coup and the election, which was declared free and fair by international observers. 'Corruption' was the reason given for the coup but theres corruption all over the world, always that doesnt lead to coups of elected regimes.

Opinion polling and actual election results show the Russian speaking majority in the East of the country feel that way. Feel free to post contrary stats or evidence if you've got some.

It’s misinformation because you claimed that a pro-Moscow government was elected.. it wasn’t, it was pro-EU. It’s also misinformation to claim the majority of Russian speakers in the East want to be connected to Russia.

As has been pointed out, Russia carried out covert infiltration operations and once they had a foothold then put their (excellent) propaganda into full swing. If you’d followed the events as they happened you would know this. Anything that comes out of Russia controlled Donbas now, in relation to your Russian speaking claims, cannot be taken seriously. If you want a true idea then look at the views of Russian speakers in the Eastern cities that are not under Russian control (Dnipro, Kharkiv, Zaporozhia, etc.).

You have your opinions on this, which I respect, but they are just not a true reflection of what happened or the views of actual Ukrainians at the moment.

Before you start throwing figures about regarding the views of ordinary people (in a Russian run area) remember that a lot of Russian speaking Ukrainians had to leave the Donbas because of the invasion, due to the propaganda and Russian style retributions if you didn’t tow the line. Dnipro is full of refugees from Donetsk/Luhansk areas.

[StevieC]

Good article. As well as the strategic importance for supply lines etc, I remember doing WW2 at school and Ukraine was described as 'Russia's breadbasket' because of all the rich farmland, Russia couldnt feed its people without it and Hitler wanted it for his Liebensraum project.

You do know about Holodomor don’t you?
It actually happened, rather than it being a Hitler plan.

[hibsbollah]

You do know about Holodomor don’t you?
It actually happened, rather than it being a Hitler plan.

Come on now, i think we all know Hitler invaded Russia in WW2 as part of his plan for a greater home for Germanic people. I know you think im full of misinformation but give me some credit:greengrin

[StevieC]

That Yanukovych was pro-EU and then suddenly started 'working for the Russians...' what does that actually mean?

Your second paragraph; i dont really understand, are you suggesting the Russians are sending Russian military people into Eastern Ukraine to skew the demographics and thats why Yanukovych was so popular there?

Its much more likely its just a very divided country like many countries are when they are carved up to suit imperial ambitions, it happens all over the world.

It actually means pretty much what it says .. Yanukovitch was pro-EU, then took a multi million dollar bung from Putin and had to start doing what Putin told him to do.

The military went in covertly when the pro-EU demonstrations started, although Putin couldn’t actually start anything politically as the Sochi olympics were ongoing and it would have been political suicide to start anything while it was ongoing. As soon as Sochi was out the way the Russian military mobilised in Kyiv, Donetsk, Odessa, Crimea .. even Dnipro. In Kyiv the Russian special service had snipers planted, that started taking out the protesters (the heavenly hundred). Yanukovitch headed to his “Palace of Corruption” (which I’ve personally visited) and started to grab as many valuables as he could before Russian military airlifted him out of Ukraine.

And in relation to the 2010 elections, Yanukovitch was a Russian speaking pro-EU politician, if he was so popular in Eastern Ukraine that seems to contradict your idea that the majority of Eastern Ukraine was pro-Russia.

If there is one thing that the Russian invasion has done it’s to remove any East/West divide and unite the country.

[StevieC]

Come on now, i think we all know Hitler invaded Russia in WW2 as part of his plan for a greater home for Germanic people. I know you think im full of misinformation but give me some credit:greengrin

So I’m assuming you don’t know about Holodomor and have completely missed the point I was making (which had nothing to do with WW2 and Hitler)?

[hibsbollah]

It actually means pretty much what it says .. Yanukovitch was pro-EU, then took a multi million dollar bung from Putin and had to start doing what Putin told him to do.

The military went in covertly when the pro-EU demonstrations started, although Putin couldn’t actually start anything politically as the Sochi olympics were ongoing and it would have been political suicide to start anything while it was ongoing. As soon as Sochi was out the way the Russian military mobilised in Kyiv, Donetsk, Odessa, Crimea .. even Dnipro. In Kyiv the Russian special service had snipers planted, that started taking out the protesters (the heavenly hundred). Yanukovitch headed to his “Palace of Corruption” (which I’ve personally visited) and started to grab as many valuables as he could before Russian military airlifted him out of Ukraine.

And in relation to the 2010 elections, Yanukovitch was a Russian speaking pro-EU politician, if he was so popular in Eastern Ukraine that seems to contradict your idea that the majority of Eastern Ukraine was pro-Russia.

If there is one thing that the Russian invasion has done it’s to remove any East/West divide and unite the country.

That certainly seems very black and white. Good guys and bad guys very clearly demarcated. Perhaps you're right.

[hibsbollah]

So I’m assuming you don’t know about Holodomor and have completely missed the point I was making (which had nothing to do with WW2 and Hitler)?

Im not familar with that word, no, but since you quoted my post about Hitler and liebensraum, and then pulled me up on whether it was real or just a plan, i assumed that was what you were talking about. Sometimes things are just a simple misunderstanding.

[Hibrandenburg]

Im not familar with that word, no, but since you quoted my post about Hitler and liebensraum, and then pulled me up on whether it was real or just a plan, i assumed that was what you were talking about. Sometimes things are just a simple misunderstanding.

I'm enjoying the discussion but can I just point out that Liebensraum isn't a German word but if it was it would translate as "Love room". I hate being pedantic and I do know you mean "Lebensraum". :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

I'm enjoying the discussion but can I just point out that Liebensraum isn't a German word but if it was it would translate as "Love room". I hate being pedantic and I do know you mean "Lebensraum". :greengrin

Haha, love room.

J

[hibsbollah]

I'm enjoying the discussion but can I just point out that Liebensraum isn't a German word but if it was it would translate as "Love room". I hate being pedantic and I do know you mean "Lebensraum". :greengrin


:greengrin Well im sure the nazis wanted some loving with their living.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm enjoying the discussion but can I just point out that Liebensraum isn't a German word but if it was it would translate as "Love room". I hate being pedantic and I do know you mean "Lebensraum". :greengrin

While we're on the subject, do Germans call their living room the "Lebensraum"? :confused:

[StevieC]

Im not familar with that word, no, but since you quoted my post about Hitler and liebensraum, and then pulled me up on whether it was real or just a plan, i assumed that was what you were talking about. Sometimes things are just a simple misunderstanding.

Look it up, I think it's the sort of thing you'd find interesting.
Unfortunately it was covered up and removed from the history books by the Soviet regime (as many things were).

Holodomor was a Stalin/Soviet genocide in Ukraine (1930-33) that resulted in an estimated 7 million deaths (more than the Jewish genocide of WW2) .. and yet very few people know about it.

My point being that this was from the East, that resulted in more misery and death than any invasion from the West .. and that it actually happened as opposed to Hitlers "plans" for Ukraine/Russia.
(although there is documentation that states that Germany actually removed train loads of fertile soil from Ukraine for redistribution in Germany).

[Hibrandenburg]

While we're on the subject, do Germans call their living room the "Lebensraum"? :confused:

Wohnzimmer

[LunasBoots]

Neither side wants a war, Russia isn't stupid and knows there will be retaliation which neither side wants, if they where going to take down Ukraine they would have already.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wohnzimmer

Phew.

[lord bunberry]

If Russia invade the Ukraine again you have to wonder where it will end, I’m not sure about how much misinformation there is out there, but I do know this, Putin has already invaded Ukraine and he can’t be allowed to do so again. Talk of Russian speaking citizens in Ukraine is all getting a bit WW2 and shouldn’t be used to legitimise an invasion. Russian troops are also in Kazakhstan at the moment at the request of the president, but what will happen when he asks them to leave.

[hibsbollah]

Neither side wants a war, Russia isn't stupid and knows there will be retaliation which neither side wants, if they where going to take down Ukraine they would have already.

I tend towards this as a prediction. And in the absence of anybody doing anything about reducing dependence on fossil fuels, our ongoing demand for Russia's gas reserves will be the elephant in the room.

[Ozyhibby]

Since the invasion of Crimea in 2014, Ukraine has been busily arming itself to the teeth and has a large well trained military now. The govt is also more popular now and recent reforms are cutting down corruption.
If Putin does invade it won’t be the same as Crimea. There will be a brutal fight this time. The hit to Russia’s economy from sanctions will also be huge.
He’s still mad enough to do it though.


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[Glory Lurker]

Moving its way up the BBC coverage

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59998988

Chimes with the de Bild article, particularly the Moldovan angle.

I genuinely find all this terrifying.

[StevieC]

Chimes with the de Bild article, particularly the Moldovan angle.
I genuinely find all this terrifying.

There is no doubt in my mind that Russia’s intention, during the invasion of 2014, was to creat a southern corridor across Ukraine that would have given them a land link to Crimea and Moldova.

Russian military infiltrated and instigated uprisings in Odessa, Kherson, Mariupol and other southern cities. All of them strategic cities across southern Ukraine. Thankfully they failed.

The Odessa uprising was the most prominent as it ended with 42 pro-Russian activists (many of them Russian “tourists”) dying in a shoot out and fire at the Trade Union building.
Pro-Russian activists had managed to arm themselves and had fired into a crowd of football supporters staging a pro-Ukrainian march through Odessa. After getting overwhelmed by the football supporters they retreated to the Trade Union building. Further shots were fired, and petrol bombs launched, by pro-Russians on the rooftop of the building, and 42 activists died in a subsequent fire caused by one of the petrol bombs.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Stevie, you're the Dnipro kids guy after we played them ?
Great work mate.
Obviously you have an insight and knowledge as to how they are feeling/think right now.
Be interesting to hear given Dnipro is relatively close to the Russian border.

[James310]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/statement-by-the-defence-secretary-in-the-house-of-commons-17-january-2022

This sounds like it is getting serious.

"Thank you Mr Speaker, with your permission I wanted to update the House on the situation in Ukraine. As of today, tens of thousands of Russian troops are positioned close to the Ukrainian border.

Their deployment is not routine, and they are equipped with tanks, armoured fighting vehicles, rocket artillery, and short-range ballistic missiles.

We, and our Allies, have legitimate and real cause for concern that the configuration and scale of the force being assembled, supported by Russian air and maritime long-range strike capabilities stationed in the region, could be used for the purpose of conducting a multi-axis invasion of Ukraine."

The speech is longer but the above is the opening paragraphs.

[LunasBoots]

UK and US evacuating embassy staff.

[StevieC]

UK and US evacuating embassy staff.

That seems a bit premature. Even if there was an invasion tomorrow, Kyiv is over 200 miles away from the Russian border. By all means have an escape plan, but by the best will in the world the Russians are not going to be able to surround a city of 3 million and shut down all means of exit within 24 hours. Seems to me that it’s still a bit of a political chess game, at least I hope that’s the case.

[Lendo]

That seems a bit premature. Even if there was an invasion tomorrow, Kyiv is over 200 miles away from the Russian border. By all means have an escape plan, but by the best will in the world the Russians are not going to be able to surround a city of 3 million and shut down all means of exit within 24 hours. Seems to me that it’s still a bit of a political chess game, at least I hope that’s the case.

Probably a clear indication as to how well the US/Russia talks went in Geneva sadly.

[PeeJay]

UK and US evacuating embassy staff.

Think the embassy staff are staying put - it's their families/dependents that are being evacuated ...

[Ozyhibby]

That seems a bit premature. Even if there was an invasion tomorrow, Kyiv is over 200 miles away from the Russian border. By all means have an escape plan, but by the best will in the world the Russians are not going to be able to surround a city of 3 million and shut down all means of exit within 24 hours. Seems to me that it’s still a bit of a political chess game, at least I hope that’s the case.

Wouldn’t take a fighter plane long to get there though and when the fighting starts there are likely to be a lot of people trying to leave at once.


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[LunasBoots]

That seems a bit premature. Even if there was an invasion tomorrow, Kyiv is over 200 miles away from the Russian border. By all means have an escape plan, but by the best will in the world the Russians are not going to be able to surround a city of 3 million and shut down all means of exit within 24 hours. Seems to me that it’s still a bit of a political chess game, at least I hope that’s the case.

The West's response is pretty much 'sanctions' that's it, how reassuring for the poor Ukrainians who could lose many lives. Have we not learnt from the past with Russia, sanctions are useless.

[Ozyhibby]

The West's response is pretty much 'sanctions' that's it, how reassuring for the poor Ukrainians who could lose many lives. Have we not learnt from the past with Russia, sanctions are useless.

I think the current sanctions are quite limited but proper sanctions could actually have a big impact on Russia’s economy. If the US starts freezing Russian assets abroad and withdraw access to the bank payment systems then that would be significant. It would be very difficult for Russia to trade at all and they rely on income from gas to support their economy.
To do that, we need to make sure Europe can get enough gas supplies from elsewhere. Luckily we are coming out of winter now.


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[Kato]

If the US starts freezing Russian assets abroad

Has this got something to do with Boris inside a fridge?

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[Jamesie]

That seems a bit premature. Even if there was an invasion tomorrow, Kyiv is over 200 miles away from the Russian border. By all means have an escape plan, but by the best will in the world the Russians are not going to be able to surround a city of 3 million and shut down all means of exit within 24 hours. Seems to me that it’s still a bit of a political chess game, at least I hope that’s the case.

Agree with that, but equally can’t really see how Putin steps back from this buildup without losing face at home, absent there being some form of massive concession from the West.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1485566793892704261?s=21


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[Ozyhibby]

Agree with that, but equally can’t really see how Putin steps back from this buildup without losing face at home, absent there being some form of massive concession from the West.

Is invading Ukraine going to be popular with ordinary Russians?


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[StevieC]

Is invading Ukraine going to be popular with ordinary Russians?

It won’t be portrayed that way on Russian propaganda TV. Like the first invasion, it will be reported as a necessary act to protect Russian and Ukrainian citizens from a fascist government infiltrated by Western influences.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is invading Ukraine going to be popular with ordinary Russians?


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Depends how he's selling it. He's a populist and if history has told us one thing it's that populists have to keep upping the stakes.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Is invading Ukraine going to be popular with ordinary Russians?


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Russian TV is mental. There are numerous news channels and debate shows pumping out constant hard line and frankly bulls**t baloney 24/7. Honestly it would make Hannity and Co at Fox News blush.

Your average Russian doesn't bother too much, many have Ukrainian ancestry and the whole thing is sold as both protecting and uniting ethnic Russians and Russian speakers.
Your average Russian also doesn't want NATO and US hardware on its borders. On the face of it that's a hard one to argue against.

Young Russians, the YouTube generation, know its a load of nonsense but there is a feeling that Putin will do what he likes and that being worried about politics or even an invasion of Ukraine is really not worth bothering about.

An average Russian in Ufa, Krasnoyarsk or Khabarovsk won't bother too much either way but should body bags start returning then the general antipathy and nonplussed mood will change dramatically.

[The dalmeny]

Can they get a move on and do it before the play off game?

[One Day Soon]

https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1485566793892704261?s=21


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This could be interesting. Putin obviously has a far wider range of military options available to him but if he is seriously planning to put T-72s into the front line he'd better be prepared for Russian body bags, lots of them.

The Ukrainians are more than prepared to offer resistance to anything west of Donbas for as long as they have the capability. The anti-tank weaponry the UK sent to the Ukraine last week would, in the right hands, turn those T-72s into teabags very, very quickly and they aren't the only hardware that has been going in there in recent years.

The lessons are painfully obvious here: don't be dependent on Russian gas for EU energy, don't have a divided EU, don't have leaders of little stature in the West, don't embolden Putin by allowing him to make foreign territory gains without real pain, don't have a US and UK that are deeply divided internally and don't elect Russian assets into the highest office in leading Western nations.

[stokesmessiah]

Can they get a move on and do it before the play off game?

Pretty poor taste when there is a very real risk of substantial loss of life.

[majorhibs]

This could be interesting. Putin obviously has a far wider range of military options available to him but if he is seriously planning to put T-72s into the front line he'd better be prepared for Russian body bags, lots of them.

The Ukrainians are more than prepared to offer resistance to anything west of Donbas for as long as they have the capability. The anti-tank weaponry the UK sent to the Ukraine last week would, in the right hands, turn those T-72s into teabags very, very quickly and they aren't the only hardware that has been going in there in recent years.

The lessons are painfully obvious here: don't be dependent on Russian gas for EU energy, don't have a divided EU, don't have leaders of little stature in the West, don't embolden Putin by allowing him to make foreign territory gains without real pain, don't have a US and UK that are deeply divided internally and don't elect Russian assets into the highest office in leading Western nations.

Last paragraph pretty much on it, unfortunately most of that’s already taken place.

[Colr]

Russia holds the wests gas supplies by the short and curlies but they launder a lot of money through London.

Scotland is pretty near self sufficient in renewable energy but its not clear at all how close to self sufficiency in the gas we produce and use. The UK imports about half of its has but much of that must be for england and gas power stations.

[Ozyhibby]

Russia holds the wests gas supplies by the short and curlies but they launder a lot of money through London.

Scotland is pretty near self sufficient in renewable energy but its not clear at all how close to self sufficiency in the gas we produce and use. The UK imports about half of its has but much of that must be for england and gas power stations.

About 9% of our gas comes from Russia. We seriously need to start cutting our gas usage anyway.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fbba2f6-7d33-11ec-89e2-46a7a39080ac?shareToken=8b038f2fa78e08f385cefe58cb fb4e0f


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[JimBHibees]

Can they get a move on and do it before the play off game?

Bit crass

[Just Alf]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fbba2f6-7d33-11ec-89e2-46a7a39080ac?shareToken=8b038f2fa78e08f385cefe58cb fb4e0f


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A good read that and chimes almost exactly how I think the situation with Russia and the West is playing out at the moment (he did miss off the fact that the UK is mostly off balance as well though!)

[One Day Soon]

Russia holds the wests gas supplies by the short and curlies but they launder a lot of money through London.

Scotland is pretty near self sufficient in renewable energy but its not clear at all how close to self sufficiency in the gas we produce and use. The UK imports about half of its has but much of that must be for england and gas power stations.


Scotland produces lots of renewable energy but the problem is we also rely on other forms for baseload consumption when renewables isn't doing it - eg when the wind doesn't blow - which is quite often. So we need a reliable steady supply mix from gas, nuclear and electric. And much of that gas is used to generate electricity. We're prissy about nuclear which is narrowing our options...

It is a pretty devastating indictment of a whole succession of EU and individual national leaders in Western Europe that gas dependency upon Russia in particular has been allowed to remain and even intensify. In terms of long term strategic thinking it is a complete fail. Germany's unwillingness to stare reality in the face over nuclear plays a large part in that.

Gas often comes from unstable places. If you multiply that risk by embedding your dependency for supply on a kleptocratic gangster state with territorial ambitions then you are quite literally asking for it. Russia wants NATO and the EU weakened and split. There's a reason it is working so closely with China to push back the US generally and the dollar in particular. Those two nations are still playing the Great Game and doing so quite adeptly. Meanwhile the West is disappearing up its own cossetted ar5e in culture wars, advanced consumerism, the loss of meaningful uniting internal narratives and the corrosion of liberal democracy by populist nationalism.

Quite a good time for unaccountable dictators in charge of very large and very wealthy countries hell-bent on military strength, land grabbing and suppressing internal dissent.

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland produces lots of renewable energy but the problem is we also rely on other forms for baseload consumption when renewables isn't doing it - eg when the wind doesn't blow - which is quite often. So we need a reliable steady supply mix from gas, nuclear and electric. And much of that gas is used to generate electricity. We're prissy about nuclear which is narrowing our options...

It is a pretty devastating indictment of a whole succession of EU and individual national leaders in Western Europe that gas dependency upon Russia in particular has been allowed to remain and even intensify. In terms of long term strategic thinking it is a complete fail. Germany's unwillingness to stare reality in the face over nuclear plays a large part in that.

Gas often comes from unstable places. If you multiply that risk by embedding your dependency for supply on a kleptocratic gangster state with territorial ambitions then you are quite literally asking for it. Russia wants NATO and the EU weakened and split. There's a reason it is working so closely with China to push back the US generally and the dollar in particular. Those two nations are still playing the Great Game and doing so quite adeptly. Meanwhile the West is disappearing up its own cossetted ar5e in culture wars, advanced consumerism, the loss of meaningful uniting internal narratives and the corrosion of liberal democracy by populist nationalism.

Quite a good time for unaccountable dictators in charge of very large and very wealthy countries hell-bent on military strength, land grabbing and suppressing internal dissent.

Fair assessment.


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[Torto7]

Scotland produces lots of renewable energy but the problem is we also rely on other forms for baseload consumption when renewables isn't doing it - eg when the wind doesn't blow - which is quite often. So we need a reliable steady supply mix from gas, nuclear and electric. And much of that gas is used to generate electricity. We're prissy about nuclear which is narrowing our options...

It is a pretty devastating indictment of a whole succession of EU and individual national leaders in Western Europe that gas dependency upon Russia in particular has been allowed to remain and even intensify. In terms of long term strategic thinking it is a complete fail. Germany's unwillingness to stare reality in the face over nuclear plays a large part in that.

Gas often comes from unstable places. If you multiply that risk by embedding your dependency for supply on a kleptocratic gangster state with territorial ambitions then you are quite literally asking for it. Russia wants NATO and the EU weakened and split. There's a reason it is working so closely with China to push back the US generally and the dollar in particular. Those two nations are still playing the Great Game and doing so quite adeptly. Meanwhile the West is disappearing up its own cossetted ar5e in culture wars, advanced consumerism, the loss of meaningful uniting internal narratives and the corrosion of liberal democracy by populist nationalism.

Quite a good time for unaccountable dictators in charge of very large and very wealthy countries hell-bent on military strength, land grabbing and suppressing internal dissent.


Russia isnt very wealthy. Its economy is the size of the Italian one. This like you said is the Chinese egging him on.

[bigwheel]

Russia isnt very wealthy. Its economy is the size of the Italian one. This like you said is the Chinese egging him on.

It’s huge in relative terms though . 11th biggest in the world . Italy 9th. UK 6th…about a third bigger

[Smartie]

Russia isnt very wealthy. Its economy is the size of the Italian one. This like you said is the Chinese egging him on.

I'm quite surprised to hear this. (I mean, I knew Russia wasn't exactly historically wealthy but I thought the oil might have had some sort of positive effect in recent decades, propelling them up that particular league table.)

A few weeks ago I looked up that nuclear weapon they've got that someone mentioned on here. It wasn't very pleasant reading.

I take it it's a matter of priorities? They may not have a huge economy and a lot of money, but they prioritise military might over "other stuff", allowing them to punch above their weight if need be?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm quite surprised to hear this. (I mean, I knew Russia wasn't exactly historically wealthy but I thought the oil might have had some sort of positive effect in recent decades, propelling them up that particular league table.)

A few weeks ago I looked up that nuclear weapon they've got that someone mentioned on here. It wasn't very pleasant reading.

I take it it's a matter of priorities? They may not have a huge economy and a lot of money, but they prioritise military might over "other stuff", allowing them to punch above their weight if need be?

That’s pretty much it. And all the oil and Gas wealth is concentrated in very few hands and usually stashed away abroad. When Russians eventually work it out, they are going to be pretty pee’d off.
Properly applied sanctions would cripple Russia.


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[hibsbollah]

That’s pretty much it. And all the oil and Gas wealth is concentrated in very few hands and usually stashed away abroad. When Russians eventually work it out, they are going to be pretty pee’d off.
Properly applied sanctions would cripple Russia.


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:agree: Russia’s wealth has been stolen, by a very few oligarchs who bought up state assets in the years following Perestroika at ludicrously low prices, and invested their wealth in Monaco, the Greek islands, and most spectacularly West London. But Russians know this very well I think, it’s already been ‘worked out’. Which is why Stalin and Brezhnev are far more popular figures than Gorbachev.

[hibsbollah]

More funny ‘he said, they said’ headlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/07/macron-warns-dont-expect-miracles-in-talks-with-putin-over-ukraine

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/02/08/crise-ukrainienne-a-moscou-emmanuel-macron-a-la-recherche-d-une-position-d-equilibre_6112730_3210.html

Guardian- Talks between Macron and Putin fail to produce breakthrough.
Le Monde- Macron finds a compromise-gets Putin to promise ‘to be ready to make some concessions’

[Bostonhibby]

Truss reminding them we're in charge here

https://twitter.com/i_nautilus/status/1491815902458884109?t=tGpXRru5Ii2aF1KDTshJ-A&s=08

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[Col2]

Truss has had some day. Insulting the Russians and then admitting afterwards she got it wrong, underprepared and her counterpart just ripped her up in front of the watching media.

Meanwhile Johnson is bouncing around with soldiers and tanks and giving a detailed list of all the military support UK has given down to the nearest rifle.

Sensitive diplomatic negotiation needed? Not if your Global Britain. Compete and utter pricks. Useless dangerous halfwits.

[Andy Bee]

Truss has had some day. Insulting the Russians and then admitting afterwards she got it wrong, underprepared and her counterpart just ripped her up in front of the watching media.

Meanwhile Johnson is bouncing around with soldiers and tanks and giving a detailed list of all the military support UK has given down to the nearest rifle.

Sensitive diplomatic negotiation needed? Not if your Global Britain. Compete and utter pricks. Useless dangerous halfwits.


I'm actually geniunely worried what these f*****ts are up to. They seem just to be using the Ukraine crisis as a marketing excersize for there own political gains and have no thought or sense of the problems they could cause. I wish they'd just jump in that pathetic Union Jack plane back to Downing St and just start partying and getting bladdered again, at least they can't do serious damage there.

[Bostonhibby]

Truss has had some day. Insulting the Russians and then admitting afterwards she got it wrong, underprepared and her counterpart just ripped her up in front of the watching media.

Meanwhile Johnson is bouncing around with soldiers and tanks and giving a detailed list of all the military support UK has given down to the nearest rifle.

Sensitive diplomatic negotiation needed? Not if your Global Britain. Compete and utter pricks. Useless dangerous halfwits.Bozo and Truss probably believe that whatever it is they think we have to threaten Russia, or anyone else with amounts to a hill of beans.

Bozo needs something he can appear to lead, fire a few salvos, hoist the union jack and claim a victory for a rejoicing nation and Ukraine isn't it. Leave it to those who can.

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[Col2]

Bozo and Truss probably believe that whatever it is they think we have to threaten Russia, or anyone else with amounts to a hill of beans.

Bozo needs something he can appear to lead, fire a few salvos, hoist the union jack and claim a victory for a rejoicing nation and Ukraine isn't it. Leave it to those who can.

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Yup. It will be the new Brexit done or Covid done. I reckon NATO or Germany/France will soon tell the clowns Johnson and Truss to back the **** of and let the real leaders get on with it.

I also heard Johnson go on about making sure we could provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine if they needed it. Different when it’s Afghanistan and letting people die back in August while PM and Raab on holiday and now letting the people freeze and starve.

A government with Truss, Dorries and Patel in Secretary of State positions, could anyone imagine that playing out a couple of years ago. “Led” by chief prick.

[hibsbollah]

Yup. It will be the new Brexit done or Covid done. I reckon NATO or Germany/France will soon tell the clowns Johnson and Truss to back the **** of and let the real leaders get on with it.

I also heard Johnson go on about making sure we could provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine if they needed it. Different when it’s Afghanistan and letting people die back in August while PM and Raab on holiday and now letting the people freeze and starve.

A government with Truss, Dorries and Patel in Secretary of State positions, could anyone imagine that playing out a couple of years ago. “Led” by chief prick.

They’re good at starting food banks, they could help post war Ukraine with that :aok:

[Callum_62]

British nationals in Ukraine told to evacuate

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1492203844155150339?s=21

War getting very close now. Not sure what Putin thinks he’ll gain from it but then again, I’m not sure what the West’s response will be.


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[Ozyhibby]

Watching the White House press briefing and it’s nice to see how normal it is and how professional the bloke giving it is compared to the clowns Trump used to put up.


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[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1492203844155150339?s=21
.


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Heartbreaking if it happens.

[WhileTheChief..]

Putin is terrified of the Russian people seeing Ukrainian’s live a life they can only dream of.

The wealthier Ukraine gets, by adopting Western style democracy, the worse it looks for Russians at home. Remember, there’s something like 30m people of Ukrainian decent living in Russian. An invasion isn’t going to be wholly popular when you’ve got families on both sides.

If they invade, they will be tied up in a war of resistance for 10 years plus or until they leave.

[LunasBoots]

Seems somethings changed within the last 24 hours.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Putin is terrified of the Russian people seeing Ukrainian’s live a life they can only dream of.

The wealthier Ukraine gets, by adopting Western style democracy, the worse it looks for Russians at home. Remember, there’s something like 30m people of Ukrainian decent living in Russian. An invasion isn’t going to be wholly popular when you’ve got families on both sides.

If they invade, they will be tied up in a war of resistance for 10 years plus or until they leave.

Russians are envious of how people in Moscow or St.Pete live never mind in rapidly developing former Soviet states.
Wages and living standards can vary wildly across the federation. Its a topsy-turvy situation that hasn't dented Putin nationally.

[JoeT]

I'm pretty fed up with how Russia and China are controlling a huge part of the world's population. They are causing more global warming harm than the rest of the world and once they start this potential conflict we end up like teachers separating kids in a playground. But once sorted their uncle burns the school down

[JoeT]

Add in lab leaks....

[StevieC]

https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1492203844155150339?s=21

War getting very close now. Not sure what Putin thinks he’ll gain from it but then again, I’m not sure what the West’s response will be.

I’m still of the mind that it is political posturing .. I’m not entirely sure whether that is more in hope though.

Evacuating staff and telling British/American citizens to leave could just be a chess-like move in this big game of bluff to see who blinks first. By telling citizens to leave it may be that they want Putin to expect quick military retaliation if there is an invasion?

[StevieC]

Putin is terrified of the Russian people seeing Ukrainian’s live a life they can only dream of.

The wealthier Ukraine gets, by adopting Western style democracy, the worse it looks for Russians at home. Remember, there’s something like 30m people of Ukrainian decent living in Russian. An invasion isn’t going to be wholly popular when you’ve got families on both sides.

If they invade, they will be tied up in a war of resistance for 10 years plus or until they leave.

The full on de-Sovietisation of Ukraine over the last few years must rankle a bit with the Russians. No more Lenin Squares, Karl Marx streets renamed, anything ending in “ovsk” renamed, Ukrainian language now the primary language in the schools (even in the eastern Russian speaking cities). They certainly won’t get away with the “undercover” invasion of 2014, it’ll need to be a full on Russian invasion .. and as has been mentioned, that’s not going to sit well with a lot of Ukrainians in Russia .. although Putins propaganda TV will paint a completely different picture of saving their Ukrainian brothers from a fascist puppet government controlled by America 🙄

[SkintHibby]

I'd advise all interested in the events of the ongoing Ukraine (NOT 'The Ukraine' btw) crisis to listen to this guys talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

In my opinion, Ukraine MUST become a neutral state because any alternative will result in a major European (or world) war.

[Scorrie]

If there is a war then would this affect our World Cup play off?

[easty]

I'd advise all interested in the events of the ongoing Ukraine (NOT 'The Ukraine' btw) crisis to listen to this guys talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

In my opinion, Ukraine MUST become a neutral state because any alternative will result in a major European (or world) war.

I’m interested, but not 2 hour YouTube video interested.

Give me the gist.

[Hibrandenburg]

The full on de-Sovietisation of Ukraine over the last few years must rankle a bit with the Russians. No more Lenin Squares, Karl Marx streets renamed, anything ending in “ovsk” renamed, Ukrainian language now the primary language in the schools (even in the eastern Russian speaking cities). They certainly won’t get away with the “undercover” invasion of 2014, it’ll need to be a full on Russian invasion .. and as has been mentioned, that’s not going to sit well with a lot of Ukrainians in Russia .. although Putins propaganda TV will paint a completely different picture of saving their Ukrainian brothers from a fascist puppet government controlled by America 🙄

It's all got a pre WW2 feeling about it with the west now basically offering up Ukraine by basically saying you can take it but we'll consider you to be a very naughty boy afterwards.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m interested, but not 2 hour YouTube video interested.

Give me the gist.

It’s the USAs fault :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

It’s the USAs fault :rolleyes:

Something tells me you did not watch that 2 hour lecture before forming that opinion on its contents.

[Bostonhibby]

It’s the USAs fault :rolleyes:Truss blaming those lefty amerikaninios for the impending invasion of the peace loving tropical island of Ukeraniland?

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[WhileTheChief..]

Something tells me you did not watch that 2 hour lecture before forming that opinion on its contents.

:greengrin 100% accurate.

I’ve not formed any opinion, just a little throwaway line with a smiley when I saw Yale University.

Give us a summary when you’re done watching?

[hibsbollah]

:greengrin 100% accurate.

I’ve not formed any opinion, just a little throwaway line with a smiley when I saw Yale University.

Give us a summary when you’re done watching?

Pozner is a brilliant journalist, as big a critic of and danger to Putin than he is of NATO. The title is actually misleading, Watch it yourself, even just the 6 minutes from 6:00 in to just 12 minutes in. Just the analysis of the lack of fear of nuclear war in our world is worth watching. Also interesting to note that this lecture was from 3 years ago, pre-COVID, and he’s describing 2019 as the most dangerous time in US Russian relations EVER, including the 1962(?) missile crisis.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2022/2/9/no-russia-will-not-invade-ukraine

https://www.economist.com/interactive/2022/02/11/russias-military-build-up-enters-a-more-dangerous-phase/

Couple of interesting articles.


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[StevieC]

In my opinion, Ukraine MUST become a neutral state because any alternative will result in a major European (or world) war.

IMO that would leave them wide open for invasion by stealth from the Russian Federation. Russia wants land link to Crimea and Transnistria

[Sir David Gray]

If there is a war then would this affect our World Cup play off?

You have to think it might.

[Hibrandenburg]

You have to think it might.

Yes, Ukraine would have a much larger pool of players to draw from.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

IMO that would leave them wide open for invasion by stealth from the Russian Federation. Russia wants land link to Crimea and Transnistria

Putin has already built a massive bridge, both road and rail, over to Crimea.
It was built in only 3 or 4 years and is 20 miles or km (canny mind) long. Anyway it's by far and away the longest bridge in Europe and really puts the UK or even the US to shame in how the project was delivered.
This is just one example of massive infrastructure projects that has been the hallmark of the last 20 years of Putins (leadership) Thousands of km of new motorways, bridges and tunnels ect new rail lines and connecting up remote and inhospitable parts of the country. Lots of new hub airports as well.
He built a 1,300 mile federal highway through permafrost and gigantic bogs and marshes to connect siberia to the far east of the country. This was done in 5 years, how long is the A9 upgrade to Inverness taking again?
Yes he's an authoritarian ****bag, but still many Russians are greatfull for his strong and decisive leadership.

[HibsGW]

I'd advise all interested in the events of the ongoing Ukraine (NOT 'The Ukraine' btw) crisis to listen to this guys talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

In my opinion, Ukraine MUST become a neutral state because any alternative will result in a major European (or world) war.

Actually curious about this, why do people say the Ukraine? Same thing with lots of African countries when people say the Gambia etc. I’ve never understood it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Putin has already built a massive bridge, both Road and rail, over to Crimea.
It was built in only 3 or 4 years and is 20 miles or km (canny mind) long. Anyway it's by far and away the longest bridge in Europe and really puts the UK or even the US to shame in how the project was delivered.
This is just one example if a massive infrastructure project that has been the hallmark of the last 20 years of Putins (leadership) Thousands of km of new motorways, bridges and tunnels ect new rail lines and connecting up remote and inhospitable parts if the country. Lots of new hub airports as well.
He built a 1,300 mile federal highway through permafrost and gigantic bogs and marshes to connect siberia to the far east of the country. This was done in 5 years, how long is the A9 upgrade to Inverness taking again?
Yes he's an authoritarian ****bag, but still many Russians are greatfull for his strong and decisive leadership.

Again, this sounds familiar. Hitler did similar pre 1939.

[WhileTheChief..]

Pozner is a brilliant journalist, as big a critic of and danger to Putin than he is of NATO. The title is actually misleading, Watch it yourself, even just the 6 minutes from 6:00 in to just 12 minutes in. Just the analysis of the lack of fear of nuclear war in our world is worth watching. Also interesting to note that this lecture was from 3 years ago, pre-COVID, and he’s describing 2019 as the most dangerous time in US Russian relations EVER, including the 1962(?) missile crisis.

Working my way through it, decent so far, freely admit I was reacting to the title!

[StevieC]

Putin has already built a massive bridge, both Road and rail, over to Crimea.

The Kerch crossing was an absolute requirement after the 2014 invasion, but there are still issues around it. It blocks in ports around Mariupol and there has also been incidents with Ukrainian naval ships that should be allowed access to Ukrainian ports. It was a fix for a major problem, but Russia are still wanting a permanent land link.

Should there be conflict, I’m pretty sure the Kerch bridges would be a military target.

[SkintHibby]

It’s the USAs fault :rolleyes:

No actually, its quite a balanced speech. Basically, everyone is to blame for letting it descend to this level.

[SkintHibby]

Again, this sounds familiar. Hitler did similar pre 1939.

Absolute rubbish. Putin is nothing like Hitler.

Hitler had world domination on his mind. Russia does not want NATO missiles based in Ukraine with a 5 minute flight time to Moscow.

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolute rubbish. Putin is nothing like Hitler.

Hitler had world domination on his mind. Russia does not want NATO missiles based in Ukraine with a 5 minute flight time to Moscow.

:rolleyes: I didn't compare Putin to Hitler, more the situation in general.

Powerful military nation supporting its ethnic nationals in neighbouring countries ✅

Massive build up of troops on border claiming to be exercising. ✅

Plans to make it look like the target country is the aggressor and claim retaliation. ✅

Authoritarian dictatorship ✅

Western nations unwilling to get involved militarily. ✅

Powerful military nation in recession after investing in military and infrastructure. ✅

Internal right wing media whipping up resentment against foreigners. ✅

Flirting with another totalitarian military superpower who has its own bone to pick with democracy. ✅

There are many parallels between now and the late 30's. I'm surprised they need to be pointed out.

[Killiehibbie]

Putin has already built a massive bridge, both road and rail, over to Crimea.
It was built in only 3 or 4 years and is 20 miles or km (canny mind) long. Anyway it's by far and away the longest bridge in Europe and really puts the UK or even the US to shame in how the project was delivered.
This is just one example of massive infrastructure projects that has been the hallmark of the last 20 years of Putins (leadership) Thousands of km of new motorways, bridges and tunnels ect new rail lines and connecting up remote and inhospitable parts of the country. Lots of new hub airports as well.
He built a 1,300 mile federal highway through permafrost and gigantic bogs and marshes to connect siberia to the far east of the country. This was done in 5 years, how long is the A9 upgrade to Inverness taking again?
Yes he's an authoritarian ****bag, but still many Russians are greatfull for his strong and decisive leadership.
About 50 years for the A9

[danhibees1875]

I've kept myself largely at a distance from the Ukraine news so far, but I watched "Edge of War" on Netflix last night - it felt like it could quite easily have many parallels with current events.

[hibsbollah]

I'd advise all interested in the events of the ongoing Ukraine (NOT 'The Ukraine' btw) crisis to listen to this guys talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

In my opinion, Ukraine MUST become a neutral state because any alternative will result in a major European (or world) war.

Also very good on this crazy argument that ‘getting involved in dialogue with Putin bolsters his standing domestically so we shouldn’t do it’ about 50 minutes in. It makes no sense, psychologically Russians already think of themselves as a big major power so ego or standing really doesn’t come into it.

Also, acknowledging that NATO has been advancing right up to Russia’s borders in the last 20 years is NOT the same as being an apologist for Putin’s behaviour. (Cue a big Diane Abbott pile on, what she said only sounds so weird because it’s never discussed by anyone, ever). Acknowledging NATOs mistakes gives context as to why the Russian people now fear foreign military invasion, which historically they have a good reason to.

[Ozyhibby]

Also very good on this crazy argument that ‘getting involved in dialogue with Putin bolsters his standing domestically so we shouldn’t do it’ about 50 minutes in. It makes no sense, psychologically Russians already think of themselves as a big major power so ego or standing really doesn’t come into it.

Also, acknowledging that NATO has been advancing right up to Russia’s borders in the last 20 years is NOT the same as being an apologist for Putin’s behaviour. (Cue a big Diane Abbott pile on, what she said only sounds so weird because it’s never discussed by anyone, ever). Acknowledging NATOs mistakes gives context as to why the Russian people now fear foreign military invasion, which historically they have a good reason to.

Those are some good points but the answer to those points by Russia should not be to invade another country.
I agree that our military adventures over the last 30 years would give most countries reason to be nervous.


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[hibsbollah]

… but the answer should not be to invade another country.
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Yes of course, that goes without saying.

[ronaldo7]

Also very good on this crazy argument that ‘getting involved in dialogue with Putin bolsters his standing domestically so we shouldn’t do it’ about 50 minutes in. It makes no sense, psychologically Russians already think of themselves as a big major power so ego or standing really doesn’t come into it.

Also, acknowledging that NATO has been advancing right up to Russia’s borders in the last 20 years is NOT the same as being an apologist for Putin’s behaviour. (Cue a big Diane Abbott pile on, what she said only sounds so weird because it’s never discussed by anyone, ever). Acknowledging NATOs mistakes gives context as to why the Russian people now fear foreign military invasion, which historically they have a good reason to.

The advancement of NATO to the east has been slow and deliberate. Russia were always going to bite back, and unfortunately it's Ukraine who're feeling the brunt of it.

[Glory Lurker]

Russia is not afraid of nato. They just resent former republics joining it as it effectively prevents them from taking them back over. It's entirely understandable that some republics want to join, to prevent Russia doing just that . Nato are not the bad guys.

[Colr]

The West needs to very publicly start work to eliminate its dependence on Russian gas and oil. Cancelling the second pipeline as a starter.

Choke of the kleptocrats money supply.

[SkintHibby]

https://fb.watch/b8RUjzwgNc/

Tulsi speaks the truth. A breath of fresh air in US politics!

[SkintHibby]

The West needs to very publicly start work to eliminate its dependence on Russian gas and oil. Cancelling the second pipeline as a starter.

Choke of the kleptocrats money supply.

You are another falling for American propaganda.

You show your ignorance right away by mentioning a second pipeline. There are more than two linking Russia to Europe already!

The US will stop at nothing to keep Russia and China becoming economic powerhouses.
They want Europe to buy their expensive liquified gas instead of cheap dependable gas from Russia and people like yourself are falling for it hook line and sinker.

If Europe stops importing Russian gas then just watch gas prices sky rocket.

In Europe we are all being played by the USA and Ukraine is their bait and they are hoping Russia bites. The USA could not care less if Ukraine burns - just so long as they can achieve their own geopolitical goals.

[The Pointer]

Putin has already built a massive bridge, both road and rail, over to Crimea.
It was built in only 3 or 4 years and is 20 miles or km (canny mind) long. Anyway it's by far and away the longest bridge in Europe and really puts the UK or even the US to shame in how the project was delivered.
This is just one example of massive infrastructure projects that has been the hallmark of the last 20 years of Putins (leadership) Thousands of km of new motorways, bridges and tunnels ect new rail lines and connecting up remote and inhospitable parts of the country. Lots of new hub airports as well.
He built a 1,300 mile federal highway through permafrost and gigantic bogs and marshes to connect siberia to the far east of the country. This was done in 5 years, how long is the A9 upgrade to Inverness taking again?
Yes he's an authoritarian ****bag, but still many Russians are greatfull for his strong and decisive leadership.


He had to build that bridge because his invasion didn't go according to plan and he didn't seize enough territory to give him land access to Crimea. Apart from being a vile, murdering kleptocrat, he's likely the richest man in the world, but many ordinary Russians won't realise that.

The Ukrainians cut off the water supply to Crimea which is another reason he wants another chunk of the country.

[The Pointer]

Absolute rubbish. Putin is nothing like Hitler.

Hitler had world domination on his mind. Russia does not want NATO missiles based in Ukraine with a 5 minute flight time to Moscow.


Ukraine is not a member of NATO so their missiles are not/will not be based there. Putin wants buffer states between Russia and the west hence the reason he invaded Ukraine and has more or less subsumed Belarus where they are starting 'exercises' tomorrow (Monday).

[lord bunberry]

https://fb.watch/b8RUjzwgNc/

Tulsi speaks the truth. A breath of fresh air in US politics!
To be honest your posts all come across as anti American so it’s hard to take anything you say or post seriously. There is zero excuse for Russia to invade Ukraine, the argument around missiles in Ukraine is ridiculous, missiles could be placed in a number of countries that would be close to Moscow. This has everything to do with Putin trying to annexe Ukraine and it should be stopped because he won’t stop there.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.justsecurity.org/80198/in-11th-hour-diplomacy-us-and-europe-try-to-stop-putin-from-escalating-war-on-ukraine/

I thought this a good read.


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[StevieC]

https://fb.watch/b8RUjzwgNc/

Tulsi speaks the truth. A breath of fresh air in US politics!

Watched it .. filed it under “no relevance to Ukrainian situation”.

Thanks for posting though.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/tomtugendhat/status/1492830556358328321?s=21

Good thread.


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[SideBurns]

Stephen Nolan on BBC 5 live has reported the Ukraine Ambassador saying they're willing to agree they won't join NATO if it avoids conflict.

[StevieC]

Stephen Nolan on BBC 5 live has reported the Ukraine Ambassador saying they're willing to agree they won't join NATO if it avoids conflict.

They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Putin wants to expand the Russian Federation, and that includes annexation of a substantial part of Ukraine. Ukraine needs Western assistance to prevent that happening. Western assistance has Putin amassing troops on the border and threatening invasion.

The map below shows (IMO) the area of Ukraine that Russia wants the most. They tried to get it in 2014 but were met with too much resistance during their “covert” invasion.
1. It provides a land link to Crimea. 2. It captures Mariupol and the Ukrainian land around Azov Sea (preventing any naval vessels access to the area of the Kerch bridges. 3. It provides a starting point for a push to Moldova/Transnistria at a future point.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://i.ibb.co/0rfQpk4/Ukraine.jpg (https://ibb.co/ZxhNR34)

mon the West, poor Ukraine with Dictators to the North and East

[SkintHibby]

Stephen Nolan on BBC 5 live has reported the Ukraine Ambassador saying they're willing to agree they won't join NATO if it avoids conflict.

At last someone from Ukraine with brains!

They have ancient ties to Russia and the only country advocating NATO membership is the troublemaking Americans!

[SkintHibby]

IMO that would leave them wide open for invasion by stealth from the Russian Federation. Russia wants land link to Crimea and Transnistria

If Russia has to capitulate and have NATO on all its borders and face the total collapse of its economy what do you think will happen then?

Unlike what America did to strangle Japan in the early 20th century this time they are facing a country that is brimming with nuclear weapons.

America has went too far this time and they could drag us all into nuclear war.

[StevieC]

If Russia has to capitulate and have NATO on all its borders and face the total collapse of its economy what do you think will happen then?

Unlike what America did to strangle Japan in the early 20th century this time they are facing a country that is brimming with nuclear weapons.

America has went too far this time and they could drag us all into nuclear war.

Whose fault was it in 2014 when Russia had snipers shooting civilians in Kyiv and just before they sent tanks, mobile grad rocket launchers and anti-aircraft missiles into the Donbas?
Have you forgotten MH17?

There was no threat of Ukraine joining NATO at that point .. but hardly surprising they started looking towards NATO for assistance afterwards.

[Paul1642]

If Russia has to capitulate and have NATO on all its borders and face the total collapse of its economy what do you think will happen then?

Unlike what America did to strangle Japan in the early 20th century this time they are facing a country that is brimming with nuclear weapons.

America has went too far this time and they could drag us all into nuclear war.

You are a lunatic. How anyone can even try make Russia (and 20th century japan for that matter) out to be the victim is beyond me.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2022-02/peter-pomerantsev-german-russian-relations-ukraine-conflict


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.zeit.de/kultur/2022-02/peter-pomerantsev-german-russian-relations-ukraine-conflict


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I don't think the author understands the German psychy as well as he thinks he does. The idea of the German military being involved in any conflict outside its own borders is absolutely repugnant to your average German and on the few occasions where that actually happened there has been huge political backlash. Pacifism is the name of the game here and any saber rattling by a German government would be its downfall. We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism and the high price Russia paid in WW2, despite the resulting division of their country afterwards and the following cold war.

Then there's gas, Germany is much more dependent on Russian gas than any other European nation. Naively Germany probably thought that more economic ties to Russia would strengthen relationships between East an West. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder is on the Board of several Russian gas companies making these ties not only economical but also political making it extremely difficult for Germany to take sides or at least to be seen to do so. Maybe this all makes the Germans the best country to mediate between both sides of the current conflict. Germany has also been against the integration of Ukraine in NATO and spoke out against this a few years back because they were concerned that doing so would lead to the exact same situation we now find ourselves in.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think the author understands the German psychy as well as he thinks he does. The idea of the German military being involved in any conflict outside its own borders is absolutely repugnant to your average German and on the few occasions where that actually happened there has been huge political backlash. Pacifism is the name of the game here and any saber rattling by a German government would be its downfall. We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism and the high price Russia paid in WW2, despite the resulting division of their country afterwards and the following cold war.

Then there's gas, Germany is much more dependent on Russian gas than any other European nation. Naively Germany probably thought that more economic ties to Russia would strengthen relationships between East an West. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder is on the Board of several Russian gas companies making these ties not only economical but also political making it extremely difficult for Germany to take sides or at least to be seen to do so. Maybe this all makes the Germans the best country to mediate between both sides of the current conflict. Germany has also been against the integration of Ukraine in NATO and spoke out against this a few years back because they were concerned that doing so would lead to the exact same situation we now find ourselves in.

And I think any criticism of German use of Russian gas from the UK is some cheek given we launder all the money the oligarchs make from it. And a good deal more.


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[Scorrie]

Anyway shouldn’t we be sending a task force to the Chagos Islands to liberate it from the Mauritius who invaded last night...

[StevieC]

Today parents in Dnipro received a letter from the schools telling them to ensure that each child had a card in their school bag that gave the full name, address and phone numbers of their parents and also their closest relatives.

This has caused a bit of a panic amongst parents, wondering whether the state knows something they don’t or are just being extra cautious.

[Glory Lurker]

Today parents in Dnipro received a letter from the schools telling them to ensure that each child had a card in their school bag that gave the full name, address and phone numbers of their parents and also their closest relatives.

This has caused a bit of a panic amongst parents, wondering whether the state knows something they don’t or are just being extra cautious.

Just imagine dealing with that, as a kid or as a parent. Horrible.

[SkintHibby]

You are a lunatic. How anyone can even try make Russia (and 20th century japan for that matter) out to be the victim is beyond me.

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.

[Keith_M]

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.


I can only presume you've paid no attention whatsoever to what Putin, and Russia, have been doing the last twenty years.

The fact that the US is run by ar5eholes, political and economic, doesn't excuse the way Russia's behaving.

[Scorrie]

I’m still not convinced that Putin will invade. There’s a lot of willy waving going on but it’s a huge risk . Wouldn’t be surprised to see a negotiated settlement

[Ozyhibby]

I’m still not convinced that Putin will invade. There’s a lot of willy waving going on but it’s a huge risk . Wouldn’t be surprised to see a negotiated settlement

I still think that it would be madness for him to invade. I can’t see how it benefits Russia? However, it’s possible that he has been in power so long that he is losing his touch for rational behaviour.


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[Crunchie]

I don't think the author understands the German psychy as well as he thinks he does. The idea of the German military being involved in any conflict outside its own borders is absolutely repugnant to your average German and on the few occasions where that actually happened there has been huge political backlash. Pacifism is the name of the game here and any saber rattling by a German government would be its downfall. We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism and the high price Russia paid in WW2, despite the resulting division of their country afterwards and the following cold war.

Then there's gas, Germany is much more dependent on Russian gas than any other European nation. Naively Germany probably thought that more economic ties to Russia would strengthen relationships between East an West. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder is on the Board of several Russian gas companies making these ties not only economical but also political making it extremely difficult for Germany to take sides or at least to be seen to do so. Maybe this all makes the Germans the best country to mediate between both sides of the current conflict. Germany has also been against the integration of Ukraine in NATO and spoke out against this a few years back because they were concerned that doing so would lead to the exact same situation we now find ourselves in.
I very much doubt there were many Germans wanting the Russians to come and liberate them, not sure where you get that tripe from. I've seen quite a lot of rewriting on history on here but that's up there with the worst.

[Lendo]

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.

That the same US that helped Japan become a manufacturing powerhouse in the post-war years leading it to become the world’s third largest economy?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.

When do you start at RT? You've passed the audition with flying colours

[The Harp Awakes]

I’m still not convinced that Putin will invade. There’s a lot of willy waving going on but it’s a huge risk . Wouldn’t be surprised to see a negotiated settlement

Agreed. The reteric from the US/UK is unhelpful and is destabilising the situation. Boris doing it to to divert attention from his moral failure, but very disappointed in Biden. Expected more of him.

[Ozyhibby]

Agreed. The reteric from the US/UK is unhelpful and is destabilising the situation. Boris doing it to to divert attention from his moral failure, but very disappointed in Biden. Expected more of him.

Not one to defend Johnson but to be honest, when a dictator amasses an army of 120k troops on someone’s border, I’m not sure that anything other than strong words are in order?


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[hibsbollah]

Not one to defend Johnson but to be honest, when a dictator amasses an army of 120k troops on someone’s border, I’m not sure that anything other than strong words are in order?


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It’s quite quaint really. Proper big superpowers don’t risk their actual ground troops in eyeball to eyeball combat anymore, far better to annihilate Afghan goatherders at wedding parties with drones. Way cheaper and less unpleasant headlines about body bags etc.

[lord bunberry]

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.
I often wonder what it must be like to see the world from such a distorted view. You no doubt consider yourself to have a view off the world that means you view the majority as sheep and that you are amongst the more enlightened people. There were people like you who campaigned against action against hitler, they were wrong and so are you.

[Glory Lurker]

It’s quite quaint really. Proper big superpowers don’t risk their actual ground troops in eyeball to eyeball combat anymore, far better to annihilate Afghan goatherders at wedding parties with drones. Way cheaper and less unpleasant headlines about body bags etc.

Not how it went in Eastern Ukraine in 2014.

[Hibbyradge]

I often wonder what it must be like to see the world from such a distorted view. You no doubt consider yourself to have a view off the world that means you view the majority as sheep and that you are amongst the more enlightened people. There were people like you who campaigned against action against hitler, they were wrong and so are you.

We've all got distorted views of the world.

Just saying.

You probably should have resisted Godwin's law though. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

I very much doubt there were many Germans wanting the Russians to come and liberate them, not sure where you get that tripe from. I've seen quite a lot of rewriting on history on here but that's up there with the worst.

You might have had a chance at being correct if I'd actually said what you claim I did. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/gmb/status/1493481198718492672?s=21


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[Stairway 2 7]

You might have had a chance at being correct if I'd actually said what you claim I did. :rolleyes:

The possible estimated 2,000,000 raped German women by the soviet soldiers, wouldn't have been greatful

[Crunchie]

The possible estimated 2,000,000 raped German women by the soviet soldiers, wouldn't have been greatful
He thinks many Germans feel a sense of gratitude towards the Russians, the mind boggles as to where he gets that from.

The Germans, with good reason were ****ting themselves at the thought of the red army descending on them :agree:

[Since90+2]

He thinks many Germans feel a sense of gratitude towards the Russians, the mind boggles as to where he gets that from.

The Germans, with good reason were ****ting themselves at the thought of the red army descending on them :agree:

To be fair, the poster you are quoting I believe lives in Germany, he's likely to have a better understanding of the German thoughts on it than probably anyone else on here.

Have you spent much time in Germany recently?

[LunasBoots]

Just looks like a lot of political throwing Russia aren't going to invade, all a big game of look your intelligence is ****

[Paul1642]

Just looks like a lot of political throwing Russia aren't going to invade, all a big game of look your intelligence is ****

If it really has been that then it could backfire massively. I suspect Ukraine is considerably more desperate to join NATO than previously.

[Crunchie]

To be fair, the poster you are quoting I believe lives in Germany, he's likely to have a better understanding of the German thoughts on it than probably anyone else on here.

Have you spent much time in Germany recently?
How many Germans out of the 80 odd million population do you think he knows? Away and look up what the Russians did when they 'liberated' Germany in WW2.

[Since90+2]

How many Germans out of the 80 odd million population do you think he knows? Away and look up what the Russians did when they 'liberated' Germany in WW2.

I'm guessing the answer to my question was not a lot.

Out of 6 million people in Scotland I know a tiny number, but I'd be pretty confident I could accurately comment on the feelings within the country over someone who lives thousands of miles away and has never lived here.

[Paul1642]

I'm guessing the answer to my question was not a lot.

Out of 6 million people in Scotland I know a tiny number, but I'd be pretty confident I could accurately comment on the feelings within the country over someone who lives thousands of miles away and has never lived here.

I don’t think that changes the fact the the average German is not likely to have a favourable view on the Russian “liberation”.

How many Scottish or British journalist often write articles which absolutely do not reflect the majority’s views.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interview with the German president last year:


At one point, the conflict you describe is particularly clear. What do you think about the completion of Nord Stream 2? Are German interests more in energy security or loyalty to the USA?


If only it were that simple. But first of all: The dialogue with the new American government on this issue has not yet begun. Incidentally, you must bear in mind that after the sustainable deterioration of relations in recent years, energy relations are almost the last bridge between Russia and Europe. Both sides must think about breaking off this bridge completely and without replacement. I think breaking bridges is not a sign of strength. How can we still influence a state that we find unacceptable when we cut off last connections? For us Germans, there is a completely different dimension: We look back on a very eventful history with Russia. There were phases of fruitful partnership, but even more times of terrible bloodshed. On the 22nd June marks the 80th anniversary. Times the beginning of the German invasion of the Soviet Union. More than 20 million people of the then Soviet Union fell victim to the war. This does not justify misconduct in Russian politics today, but we must not lose sight of the larger picture. Yes, we live in the present of a difficult relationship, but there is a past before and a future after.

Seems that the German state still feels a sense of moral debt to the Russians whatever revenge atrocities the Red Army got up to in 1945. The Germans had, of course, inflicted their own atrocities going the other way from 1941.

[Ozyhibby]

Just looks like a lot of political throwing Russia aren't going to invade, all a big game of look your intelligence is ****

I think if Putin backs down with NATO and the west in general offering nothing in return then it’s a massive win. It’s has united the West against him, he has more NATO troops on his border than before and the Ukrainians will be feeling a lot more confident.


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[WhileTheChief..]

I'm no lunatic.

Whenever a country threatens the USAs economic power they embargo and sanction them to death. Japan last century, now Russia and China.

You are the loony for believing the west's propaganda against these proud nations.

Not a lunatic, just totally uneducated.

Russia and China proud nations? The people are certainly proud. Their leaders are gangsters and thugs. Nothing more.

Read any book, or even a few paragraphs, and you might learn something. Until then, you deserve all the scorn that comes your way.

[WhileTheChief..]

To be fair, the poster you are quoting I believe lives in Germany, he's likely to have a better understanding of the German thoughts on it than probably anyone else on here.

Have you spent much time in Germany recently?

Germans wanting the Russians to liberate them at the end of WW2?? Is that seriously what some folk are saying or have I misread things?

That's simply wrong. Whether you live in Germany now or have never set foot in the country, it's still wrong.

It's so wrong I can't believe anyone can actually thinks it.

[Since90+2]

Germans wanting the Russians to liberate them at the end of WW2?? Is that seriously what some folk are saying or have I misread things?

That's simply wrong. Whether you live in Germany now or have never set foot in the country, it's still wrong.

It's so wrong I can't believe anyone can actually thinks it.

I don't believe the poster said the Germans wanted the Russians to liberate them. Or have I missed that?

[Since90+2]

Not a lunatic, just totally uneducated.

Russia and China proud nations? The people are certainly proud. Their leaders are gangsters and thugs. Nothing more.

Read any book, or even a few paragraphs, and you might learn something. Until then, you deserve all the scorn that comes your way.

The US has killed more innocent people than Russia and China combined in the last two decades.

[hibsbollah]

How many Germans out of the 80 odd million population do you think he knows? Away and look up what the Russians did when they 'liberated' Germany in WW2.


I was also surprised by what Hibsbrandenburg said about that, from what ive read about the Red Army's brutal entry into Germany, but i'm willing to defer to him because he obviously knows the political and social culture more than I do. Sometimes you have to accept that theres room for learning new things? :dunno:

[Stairway 2 7]

The US has killed more innocent people than Russia and China combined in the last two decades.

Hardly a good trio to be in human rights wise, asking for an Uyghurs

[Paul1642]

The US has killed more innocent people than Russia and China combined in the last two decades.

I would massively disagree with that. How many of their own citizens have Americans killed?. If I were a Chinese or Russian national who had disagreed with the government I would be watching my back.

[WhileTheChief..]

The US has killed more innocent people than Russia and China combined in the last two decades.

Nope.

I know folk like to say this sort of thing or that America is the biggest terrorist organisation out there, but it's total BS.

There's just no comparison.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are seriously trying to compare the USA and Russia, I'll just leave you to it.

[Smartie]

I would massively disagree with that. How many of their own citizens have Americans killed?. If I were a Chinese or Russian national who had disagreed with the government I would be watching my back.

There have been enough murky and questionable acts carried out by the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese over the past few years that I don't think any of them can exactly claim a moral high ground over the others.

I'd also add that I reckon geopolitics is a dodgy business, and that each of the three might consider themselves to have had justification for carrying out those murky acts.

None of this is goodies vs baddies, and I probably have a bit more respect for some of the dissenting voices on this thread than some appear to.

[WhileTheChief..]

I was also surprised by what Hibsbrandenburg said about that, from what ive read about the Red Army's brutal entry into Germany, but i'm willing to defer to him because he obviously knows the political and social culture more than I do. Sometimes you have to accept that theres room for learning new things? :dunno:

Why and how?

You've just said you've read about the Red Army's brutal entry into Germany and now you're ready to dismiss it?

Maybe he's wrong? :dunno:

[WhileTheChief..]

There have been enough murky and questionable acts carried out by the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese over the past few years that I don't think any of them can exactly claim a moral high ground over the others.

I'd also add that I reckon geopolitics is a dodgy business, and that each of the three might consider themselves to have had justification for carrying out those murky acts.

None of this is goodies vs baddies, and I probably have a bit more respect for some of the dissenting voices on this thread than some appear to.

The Russians and Chinese are absolutely the baddies.

The hatred and loathing towards the USA, UK and the West in general on this forum is sickening at times.

[Since90+2]

Nope.

I know folk like to say this sort of thing or that America is the biggest terrorist organisation out there, but it's total BS.

There's just no comparison.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are seriously trying to compare the USA and Russia, I'll just leave you to it.

Really? How many innocent civilians died as a result of the US invasion of Iraq? I think the best estimate is 200,000. Is that not the actions of gangsters and thugs?

How many countries have been invaded, and wars have the US been involved in? Who is the only nation to ever drop nuclear bombs? How many civilians continue to be killed by drone strikes?

I'm afraid you're very naive if you believe the US are the good guys.

[Stairway 2 7]

Really? How many innocent civilians died as a result of the US invasion of Iraq? I think the best estimate is 200,000. Is that not the actions of gangsters and thugs?

China put around 1.3 million of their population (mostly Muslim) each year into internment camps each year. As I said coming out in front in that group of 3 is as unimpressive as saying, she's one of the best looking birds in the wheatfield stand


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

[Since90+2]

China put around 1.3 million of their population (mostly Muslim) each year into internment camps each year. As I said coming out in front in that group of 3 is as unimpressive as saying, she's one of the best looking birds in the wheatfield stand


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

China are definitely not the good guys. Miles from it.

To think the US are though is bonkers.

[hibsbollah]

Why and how?

You've just said you've read about the Red Army's brutal entry into Germany and now you're ready to dismiss it?

Maybe he's wrong? :dunno:

You have a habit of missing subtlety and nuance.
I didn't say I was dismissing it. Why would I raise the fact it happened otherwise :dunno:
'Hatred and loathing of the USA and the West'? Could you point me to where anyone has shown evidence of that?
All nations have strategic interests and will use brutal force to defend those interests. 'Goodie and baddie' talk is for the playground.

[Smartie]

The Russians and Chinese are absolutely the baddies.

The hatred and loathing towards the USA, UK and the West in general on this forum is sickening at times.

I'm not excusing any of the objectionable acts carried out by the Russians or the Chinese... but they are coming from a particular starting position relative to the USA.

The USA and the UK are coming from a position of strength and maturity and should have their actions considered relative to that.

Do you think their arms dealing with the Saudis are insignificant? How does the "war on terror" and it's consequences sit with you? How squeaky clean do you really feel the UK is, as a money laundering capital for corrupt Russian cash? Were you impressed by Trump's departure as president and the attempted coup? How confident are you that America will be a "liberal" democracy in 20 years and not captured and turned into an authoritarian state by Trump, his family and his followers? Do you not think that Putin has any reason whatsoever to be concerned about the advance of Nato East and the broken promises made to Russia over the past few decades?

Not for one second justifying China's appalling human rights record or advances in the South China Sea, or Putin's past acts of wanton aggression and authoritative approach to his own citizens, especially dissidents.

[Ozyhibby]

At least in the West we can have this debate. [emoji6][emoji106]


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[Smartie]

At least in the West we can have this debate. [emoji6][emoji106]


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A good point, well made.

[Paul1642]

Can we keep this thread on Ukraine and let the West haters start there own thread please.

[WhileTheChief..]

You have a habit of missing subtlety and nuance.
I didn't say I was dismissing it. Why would I raise the fact it happened otherwise :dunno:
'Hatred and loathing of the USA and the West'? Could you point me to where anyone has shown evidence of that?
All nations have strategic interests and will use brutal force to defend those interests. 'Goodie and baddie' talk is for the playground.

It's a forum, during working hours, I'm not about to write a thesis!

You said you would defer to the other poster, I don't understand why. You've read about the atrocities the Russians committed, why would you now question it?

The general tone on this forum, no matter what the subject is, is to blame the USA and favour the East. You must have seen it without needing me to point it out?

Look back at the thousands of posts condemning Trump for example. I'm not about to stick up for anything but the criticism he took compared to Putin is mind-blowing.

I don't just mean on here, I mean on the news and media in general.

Putin can order the murder of people in the UK and get less abuse than Trump got for sending a Tweet ffs!!

Goodies and baddies might simplify things, but in this context, it's 100% accurate.

[Paul1642]

It's a forum, during working hours, I'm not about to write a thesis!

You said you would defer to the other poster, I don't understand why. You've read about the atrocities the Russians committed, why would you now question it?

The general tone on this forum, no matter what the subject is, is to blame the USA and favour the East. You must have seen it without needing me to point it out?

Look back at the thousands of posts condemning Trump for example. I'm not about to stick up for anything but the criticism he took compared to Putin is mind-blowing.

I don't just mean on here, I mean on the news and media in general.

Putin can order the murder of people in the UK and get less abuse than Trump got for sending a Tweet ffs!!

Goodies and baddies might simplify things, but in this context, it's 100% accurate.

Couldn’t agree more. Western leaders righty get criticised, even forced to resign for scandals that wouldn’t even be worth mentioning in the east. When Biden puts over 1 million of his own citizens in concentration camps and Boris slips some plutonium in a rivals tea, then we will talk.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a forum, during working hours, I'm not about to write a thesis!

You said you would defer to the other poster, I don't understand why. You've read about the atrocities the Russians committed, why would you now question it?

The general tone on this forum, no matter what the subject is, is to blame the USA and favour the East. You must have seen it without needing me to point it out?

Look back at the thousands of posts condemning Trump for example. I'm not about to stick up for anything but the criticism he took compared to Putin is mind-blowing.

I don't just mean on here, I mean on the news and media in general.

Putin can order the murder of people in the UK and get less abuse than Trump got for sending a Tweet ffs!!

Goodies and baddies might simplify things, but in this context, it's 100% accurate.

We should hold the leaders of democratic countries to a higher standard though, no?


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[hibsbollah]

Can we keep this thread on Ukraine and let the West haters start there own thread please.

In a parallel universe you might moderate a forum. You dont on this one, FYI. :aok:

[Paul1642]

We should hold the leaders of democratic countries to a higher standard though, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We do, every 4 years or so at the polls. Wonder how long Putin and Xi will cling on.

[WhileTheChief..]

Go watch some of Alexei Navalny’s stuff on YouTube.

He brilliantly illustrates everything that is wrong with Putin and the Russian system, you don’t need to listen to me!

[JeMeSouviens]

It's a forum, during working hours, I'm not about to write a thesis!

You said you would defer to the other poster, I don't understand why. You've read about the atrocities the Russians committed, why would you now question it?

The general tone on this forum, no matter what the subject is, is to blame the USA and favour the East. You must have seen it without needing me to point it out?

Look back at the thousands of posts condemning Trump for example. I'm not about to stick up for anything but the criticism he took compared to Putin is mind-blowing.

I don't just mean on here, I mean on the news and media in general.

Putin can order the murder of people in the UK and get less abuse than Trump got for sending a Tweet ffs!!

Goodies and baddies might simplify things, but in this context, it's 100% accurate.


Domestically:

Putin, unconstrained and ruthless
Trump, constrained (but pushing those constraints to the edge) and ruthless


Internationally:

Both unconstrained and ruthless

[lapsedhibee]

Western leaders righty get criticised, even forced to resign for scandals that wouldn’t even be worth mentioning in the east.


We do, every 4 years or so at the polls. Wonder how long Putin and Xi will cling on.

:hmmm:

[Hibrandenburg]

I very much doubt there were many Germans wanting the Russians to come and liberate them, not sure where you get that tripe from. I've seen quite a lot of rewriting on history on here but that's up there with the worst.

I know your Daily Mail likes to keep droning on about goose stepping Merkel and the British Bulldog Blitz mentality, but here's some news for you "the war finished 77 years ago.

Germans of my age still carry the burden and guilt of that what some of their grandparents did and they had nothing to do with any of it. Germany as a nation has accepted its guilt in the atrocities and has had to come to terms with it and made atonement where it can. Unlike some other colonial super powers it has faced up to and openly admitted the atrocities it committed in the past and because it has done that it can actively work on ensuring through education that at least in Germany, nothing like that can ever happen again.

To the east of the Elbe, there are hundreds of Russian military cemeteries that are lovingly cared for by the local population and funded by the German state. There are also many Germans who still consider the Russian occupation as a partnership and there are still many cultural and educational exchanges between both countries that have their source at that time. The first foreign language taught in the former East Germany was Russian, Anyone who has ever learned to speak a foreign language fluently will tell you that you can't do that without absorbing the culture of that language.

On a personal note, my mother in law is the product of one of those rapes you mentioned in another post, she's anything other than a Russian hater like you seem to think modern Germans are. Also my 13 year old son is half German and is starting to learn about his home countries historical atrocities, that combined with an education that embraces cultural differences is something I would like to have had at school, instead of the white washing and glorification of past atrocities that I received in the British education system. The average contemporary German is well educated on Germany's dark past and is able to understand that without the incredible sacrifice made by the allies and especially the Russians, then the Europe that they live in today would be a much darker place. Let's also not forget that millions of Germans back in the 1930's were not Nazis but either Socialists or Communists who also suffered at the hands of the Nazis and actually celebrated the arrival of the Red Army.

[JeMeSouviens]

I know your Daily Mail likes to keep droning on about goose stepping Merkel and the British Bulldog Blitz mentality, but here's some news for you "the war finished 77 years ago.

Germans of my age still carry the burden and guilt of that what some of their grandparents did and they had nothing to do with any of it. Germany as a nation has accepted its guilt in the atrocities and has had to come to terms with it and made atonement where it can. Unlike some other colonial super powers it has faced up to and openly admitted the atrocities it committed in the past and because it has done that it can actively work on ensuring through education that at least in Germany, nothing like that can ever happen again.

To the east of the Elbe, there are hundreds of Russian military cemeteries that are lovingly cared for by the local population and funded by the German state. There are also many Germans who still consider the Russian occupation as a partnership and there are still many cultural and educational exchanges between both countries that have their source at that time. The first foreign language taught in the former East Germany was Russian, Anyone who has ever learned to speak a foreign language fluently will tell you that you can't do that without absorbing the culture of that language.

On a personal note, my mother in law is the product of one of those rapes you mentioned in another post, she's anything other than a Russian hater like you seem to think modern Germans are. Also my 13 year old son is half German and is starting to learn about his home countries historical atrocities, that combined with an education that embraces cultural differences is something I would like to have had at school, instead of the white washing and glorification of past atrocities that I received in the British education system. The average contemporary German is well educated on Germany's dark past and is able to understand that without the incredible sacrifice made by the allies and especially the Russians, then the Europe that they live in today would be a much darker place. Let's also not forget that millions of Germans back in the 1930's were not Nazis but either Socialists or Communists who also suffered at the hands of the Nazis and actually celebrated the arrival of the Red Army.

We're a bit off topic but I would guess that living the decades of the pro-Russian GDR will have left something of a legacy there?

[StevieC]

Go watch some of Alexei Navalny’s stuff on YouTube.

He brilliantly illustrates everything that is wrong with Putin and the Russian system, you don’t need to listen to me!

Agreed. Some good stuff.
And in the context of Ukraine, it’s exactly what Yanukovitch was doing (as Putins puppet) and the main cause of the 2014 protests and the Russian invasion.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was also surprised by what Hibsbrandenburg said about that, from what ive read about the Red Army's brutal entry into Germany, but i'm willing to defer to him because he obviously knows the political and social culture more than I do. Sometimes you have to accept that theres room for learning new things? :dunno:

I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about the present when replying to a link posted by another member, it was Crunchie who dragged us back to 1945. The Germany of 1945 is literally a lifetime away from today, especially politically and culturally.

[Hibrandenburg]

We're a bit off topic but I would guess that living the decades of the pro-Russian GDR will have left something of a legacy there?

In both Russia and Germany :agree:

[Crunchie]

I know your Daily Mail likes to keep droning on about goose stepping Merkel and the British Bulldog Blitz mentality, but here's some news for you "the war finished 77 years ago.

Germans of my age still carry the burden and guilt of that what some of their grandparents did and they had nothing to do with any of it. Germany as a nation has accepted its guilt in the atrocities and has had to come to terms with it and made atonement where it can. Unlike some other colonial super powers it has faced up to and openly admitted the atrocities it committed in the past and because it has done that it can actively work on ensuring through education that at least in Germany, nothing like that can ever happen again.

To the east of the Elbe, there are hundreds of Russian military cemeteries that are lovingly cared for by the local population and funded by the German state. There are also many Germans who still consider the Russian occupation as a partnership and there are still many cultural and educational exchanges between both countries that have their source at that time. The first foreign language taught in the former East Germany was Russian, Anyone who has ever learned to speak a foreign language fluently will tell you that you can't do that without absorbing the culture of that language.

On a personal note, my mother in law is the product of one of those rapes you mentioned in another post, she's anything other than a Russian hater like you seem to think modern Germans are. Also my 13 year old son is half German and is starting to learn about his home countries historical atrocities, that combined with an education that embraces cultural differences is something I would like to have had at school, instead of the white washing and glorification of past atrocities that I received in the British education system. The average contemporary German is well educated on Germany's dark past and is able to understand that without the incredible sacrifice made by the allies and especially the Russians, then the Europe that they live in today would be a much darker place. Let's also not forget that millions of Germans back in the 1930's were not Nazis but either Socialists or Communists who also suffered at the hands of the Nazis and actually celebrated the arrival of the Red Army.
You said, and I quote (We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism ) which imo is utter garbage. I don't care how long you've lived there.

Your Daily Mail comment is as laughable as the rest of your post( never bought the paper ) and fyi I didn't mention anything about rape.

I'm very well clued up on WW2, I've watched The World at War a zillion times over and was taught German by a German woman at school who told us some harrowing stuff about the war. It was interesting hearing from a different side as all I'd ever heard was my grandfather's side of it.

I'll bow out at that and let you get on with being Mr pretentious as usual.

[Keith_M]

The US has killed more innocent people than Russia and China combined in the last two decades.


Since WWII, the US has spent more time engaged in wars, either directly or through puppet armies, than any other country in the world.

Nobody can possibly defend that... however, it's a simple case of two wrongs don't make a right;

The atrocities carried out by the US doesn't mean Putin is innocent of any wrongdoing

[superfurryhibby]

I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about the present when replying to a link posted by another member, it was Crunchie who dragged us back to 1945. The Germany of 1945 is literally a lifetime away from today, especially politically and culturally.

How does that sit with the rise of the far right in German politics and the increasing popularity of nazi groups, particularly in the former East Germany?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/christopherjm/status/1493623129180196872?s=21


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[Keith_M]

We're a bit off topic but I would guess that living the decades of the pro-Russian GDR will have left something of a legacy there?


From the people I've met from the East, the gratitude is mostly for them finally buggering off in 1990.

Also, the reason a large number of people spoke Russian in schools is because that was what was imposed on them by the dictatorial puppet state they lived in at the time, not because of any great love of Russia.

I realise there will be exceptions to that, as around 5% of East Germans were Communist party members.

But even within that group, there were a large number of people that only joined because they had no choice... Want to go to University? Join the Communist Party... Want to get ahead in your career? Ditto.

My own father in law was a Party member but his family only found out about it after his death, when they found his membership card that he'd hidden in the attic.

[Keith_M]

Anyway, Ukraine :-)


BBC are reporting that some Russian troops have moved away from the border with Ukraine and Putin has appeared slightly less aggressive in his latest statement.

Hopefully it's a sign that things are going to calm down a bit

[Hibrandenburg]

How does that sit with the rise of the far right in German politics and the increasing popularity of nazi groups, particularly in the former East Germany?

"The rise of the far right". Over 80% of Germans voted for moderate parties, 10% voted for the AfD. I don't know your sources of information but 10% can hardly be described as a resurgence of national socialism, especially when you take into account that the AfD are trying to sell themselves as a mainstream party.

[Hibrandenburg]

You said, and I quote (We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism ) which imo is utter garbage. I don't care how long you've lived there.

Your Daily Mail comment is as laughable as the rest of your post( never bought the paper ) and fyi I didn't mention anything about rape.

I'm very well clued up on WW2, I've watched The World at War a zillion times over and was taught German by a German woman at school who told us some harrowing stuff about the war. It was interesting hearing from a different side as all I'd ever heard was my grandfather's side of it.

I'll bow out at that and let you get on with being Mr pretentious as usual.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge of contemporary German world politics gained by watching documentaries about historical events from 77 years ago, my experience of living in Germany for nearly 40 years pales in comparison.

[Hibrandenburg]

Anyway, Ukraine :-)


BBC are reporting that some Russian troops have moved away from the border with Ukraine and Putin has appeared slightly less aggressive in his latest statement.

Hopefully it's a sign that things are going to calm down a bit

Just a coincidence that he's made this concession directly after talks with the German Chancellor?

[Hibbyradge]

I know your Daily Mail likes to keep droning on about goose stepping Merkel and the British Bulldog Blitz mentalit...

Which in itself is ironic given that newspaper's support of Hitler.

[Hibrandenburg]

Which in itself is ironic given that newspaper's support of Hitler.

Indeed.

[hibsbollah]

Just a coincidence that he's made this concession directly after talks with the German Chancellor?

Rubbish. These are all concessions gained by Liz Truss playing hardball with Lavrov. Truss-sessions,in fact.

[The Harp Awakes]

Rubbish. These are all concessions gained by Liz Truss playing hardball with Lavrov. Truss-sessions,in fact.

Truss will no doubt be claiming that the Brits and Americans deserve all the plaudits in the Russians pulling back from the Ukraine border.

Fantasy Island stuff of course, but the Daily Mail & Express will lap it up. British bulldog on front pages to follow.

[1875godsgift]

You said, and I quote (We also shouldn't forget that amongst many Germans there is still a strong feeling of gratitude towards Russia for helping liberate them from fascism ) which imo is utter garbage. I don't care how long you've lived there.

Your Daily Mail comment is as laughable as the rest of your post( never bought the paper ) and fyi I didn't mention anything about rape.

I'm very well clued up on WW2, I've watched The World at War a zillion times over and was taught German by a German woman at school who told us some harrowing stuff about the war. It was interesting hearing from a different side as all I'd ever heard was my grandfather's side of it.

I'll bow out at that and let you get on with being Mr pretentious as usual.

Why would that be utter garbage?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Not going to wade into this debate as frankly I don't know too much about it.

What I do find fascinating is that many Russians regard Germany as the place they would most like to visit or move to, it regularly tops lists and opinion polls.

Berlin is probably their favourite foreign city and traditional German food is really popular in Russia, quite a cross over with Russian dishes.

During the war though, Russians and Slavs were demonised in Germany and Russians were regarded as dogs, peasant inbred ****. They really were hated.

Like wise in Russia, Germany and Germans were absolutely vilified and the Red army took great pleasure in countless horrific acts of brutality on their march to Berlin. This was in course in retribution for acts of savagery upon the Russian population and the siege of Stanlingrad which saw some of the inhabitants turn to cannibalism.

Just interesting how Russians now view Germany and Germans in such positive tones.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Why would that be utter garbage?

Because he's watched The World At War a zillion times.
I've watched the series twice, I have a doctorate on German history.

[StevieC]

Not going to wade into this debate as frankly I don't know too much about it.

What I do find fascinating is that many Russians regard Germany as the place they would most like to visit or move to, it regularly tops lists and opinion polls.

Berlin is probably their favourite foreign city and traditional German food is really popular in Russia, quite a cross over with Russian dishes.

During the war though, Russians and Slavs were demonised in Germany and Russians were regarded as dogs, peasant inbred ****. They really were hated.

Like wise in Russia, Germany and Germans were absolutely vilified and the Red army took great pleasure in countless horrific acts of brutality on their march to Berlin. This was in course in retribution for acts of savagery upon the Russian population and the siege of Stanlingrad which saw some of the inhabitants turn to cannibalism.

Just interesting how Russians now view Germany and Germans in such positive tones.

My Russian language teacher said that the Russian word for “German” originally translated into something like “stupid people”. Although Nyemoy “немои” (Russian for German is Nyemets “немец”) actually translates to “mute”, so not entirely sure how true that is.
This came up because it’s about the only translation for a people/country that isn’t a Russian pronunciation of the country itself, so there has obviously been some sort of historically special relationship (good or bad) with Germany.

[lapsedhibee]

Because he's watched The World At War a zillion times.
I've watched the series twice, I have a doctorate on German history.

Laurence Olivier was a Professor of History at Oxbridge University.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

My Russian language teacher said that the Russian word for “German” originally translated into something like “stupid people”. Although Nyemoy “немои” (Russian for German is Nyemets “немец”) actually translates to “mute”, so not entirely sure how true that is.
This came up because it’s about the only translation for a people/country that isn’t a Russian pronunciation of the country itself, so there has obviously been some sort of historically special relationship (good or bad) with Germany.

Historically peoples of Germanic origin moved east in search of pastoral lands, spiritual freedom and to escape never-ending wars.

Many populated what is now western Ukraine but many ventured even further east. They settled on the western slopes of the Urals and even today if you visited rural Perm or Udmurt or Bashkortostan for example you will still find little old babushkas who speak some German or retain old Germanic Customs and traditions.

Regards your point, mute people were often regarded as stupid or dumb so I can see where the 'stupid people' translation came about.

[WhileTheChief..]

Truss will no doubt be claiming that the Brits and Americans deserve all the plaudits in the Russians pulling back from the Ukraine border.

Fantasy Island stuff of course, but the Daily Mail & Express will lap it up. British bulldog on front pages to follow.

This is good news if the troops are indeed pulling back.

Why are you trying to knock the UK government when they haven't done anything of the sort that you are suggesting?

I've just looked at the Mail and Express online and neither have taken that line.

[WhileTheChief..]

Because he's watched The World At War a zillion times.
I've watched the series twice, I have a doctorate on German history.

Are you also saying the Germans were glad to be liberated by the Red Army in 1945??

That's simply not true.

Why are you all trying to peddle this myth?

Crunchie is 100% correct in what he posted.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Are you also saying the Germans were glad to be liberated by the Red Army in 1945??

That's simply not true.

Why are you all trying to peddle this myth?

Crunchie is 100% correct in what he posted.

I'll trust the views of someone who has lived there for decades over someone who has watched a documentary.

Can you explain why it's not true ?

[Ozyhibby]

I’m beginning to think there is the chance that there might be nuances in Germany’s post war relationship with Russia?[emoji849]


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[silverhibee]

Go watch some of Alexei Navalny’s stuff on YouTube.

He brilliantly illustrates everything that is wrong with Putin and the Russian system, you don’t need to listen to me!

Was he sentenced to another 10 years in prison.

[WhileTheChief..]

Was he sentenced to another 10 years in prison.

3 years I think it was.

On a bogus parole violation charge or similar.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not going to wade into this debate as frankly I don't know too much about it.

What I do find fascinating is that many Russians regard Germany as the place they would most like to visit or move to, it regularly tops lists and opinion polls.

Berlin is probably their favourite foreign city and traditional German food is really popular in Russia, quite a cross over with Russian dishes.

During the war though, Russians and Slavs were demonised in Germany and Russians were regarded as dogs, peasant inbred ****. They really were hated.

Like wise in Russia, Germany and Germans were absolutely vilified and the Red army took great pleasure in countless horrific acts of brutality on their march to Berlin. This was in course in retribution for acts of savagery upon the Russian population and the siege of Stanlingrad which saw some of the inhabitants turn to cannibalism.

Just interesting how Russians now view Germany and Germans in such positive tones.

There's a huge memorial to the Red Army at Treptower Park in Berlin with a massive statue of mother Russia. In the summer Russians gather there to dance slow tango. The first time I saw this there were about 20 Russians with a boogie box, now it's become a part of Berlin culture with Germans joining in, all supplemented with a picnic and beer and vodka. It's great to just sit and watch.

[Hibrandenburg]

Are you also saying the Germans were glad to be liberated by the Red Army in 1945??

That's simply not true.

Why are you all trying to peddle this myth?

Crunchie is 100% correct in what he posted.

Who said that the Germans were happy about the Russian advance and occupation in 1945?

[Hibrandenburg]

NATO now going to bolster its defence forces in Eastern Europe, are we on the verge of a new cold war?

[Keith_M]

This thread has taken a rather unfortunate turn.

Maybe we should all just stop discussing Germany* and stick to the conflict in the Ukraine.




* Says the hypocrite who also discussed it ;-)

[WhileTheChief..]

Who said that the Germans were happy about the Russian advance and occupation in 1945?

I'm not sure.

I was saying, that if anyone WAS saying that, they'd be wrong!!

I thought most people would agree with that?

[Hibrandenburg]

This thread has taken a rather unfortunate turn.

Maybe we should all just stop discussing Germany* and stick to the conflict in the Ukraine.




* Says the hypocrite who also discussed it ;-)

Admin prick.

[Keith_M]

Admin prick.



:greengrin

[WeeRussell]

I'm not sure.

I was saying, that if anyone WAS saying that, they'd be wrong!!

I thought most people would agree with that?

Be some awfy lengthy threads on here If we all started pointing out what would be hypothetically wrong for people to say 😂

[Scorrie]

Anyway, seems that some shells have landed in Ukraine according to the Guardian…

[hibsbollah]

Anyway, seems that some shells have landed in Ukraine according to the Guardian…

It’s in ‘rebel held territory’ within Ukraine itself, kindergarten hit, Russia claiming the other side fired first. This kind of gradual shift from instability to small scale attacks combined with cyber attacks was probably always more likely than an actual ground troops and tanks invasion.

Extremely worrying, not what the world needs.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s in ‘rebel held territory’ within Ukraine itself, kindergarten hit, Russia claiming the other side fired first. This kind of gradual shift from instability to small scale attacks combined with cyber attacks was probably always more likely than an actual ground troops and tanks invasion.

Extremely worrying, not what the world needs.

Or an excuse for something bigger.


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[hibsbollah]

Or an excuse for something bigger.


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Not worth thinking about. I honestly don’t think the world could go much further down the crapper than it has in the last 7/8 years. This could be a topper.

[Stairway 2 7]

So much for putin listening to talks

Jennifer Jacobs@JenniferJJacobs

The Kremlin’s claims this week that it had begun to remove troops from Ukraine’s borders were false, senior U.S. administration officials told reporters tonight. Instead, Russia has added as many as 7,000 troops to those already encircling its neighbor, a Biden official said

"We hope the world is ready," the Biden official said tonight.

[stokesmessiah]

Good news….Truss is on the ground in Ukraine, problem solved.

[WeeRussell]

Good news….Truss is on the ground in Ukraine, problem solved.

In Liz we Truss.

[wookie70]

So much for putin listening to talks

Jennifer Jacobs@JenniferJJacobs

The Kremlin’s claims this week that it had begun to remove troops from Ukraine’s borders were false, senior U.S. administration officials told reporters tonight. Instead, Russia has added as many as 7,000 troops to those already encircling its neighbor, a Biden official said

"We hope the world is ready," the Biden official said tonight.


The real problem is what side do you trust. They may well both be lying and the overall troop numbers are static and just moving along the border. Either way there are a few leaders who would think a war is good for their personal political futures and that rarely ends well

[Stairway 2 7]

The real problem is what side do you trust. They may well both be lying and the overall troop numbers are static and just moving along the border. Either way there are a few leaders who would think a war is good for their personal political futures and that rarely ends well
160,000 on the border says I don't trust Russian hunger for peace, whether you believe Biden is up to you

Javier Blas@JavierBlas·42m

UKRAINE CRISIS: "Every indication we have is that they [Russia] are prepared to go into Ukraine," U.S. President Joe Biden tells reporters. The probability of an invasion is "very high,

Cecilia Vega@CeciliaVega·59m

@POTUS just told me he now believes Putin will invade Ukraine in a matter of days

[StevieC]

Anyway, seems that some shells have landed in Ukraine according to the Guardian…

I’m not saying it’s making something out of nothing, shelling is obviously a concern, but this is territory that has weekly mortar fire, snipers and back and forth advances in and out of the villages along the area of the opposing trenches.

The thing is that the western world, and it’s media, has had no interest in the activity of Russian held territories of Ukraine .. until it suits them to make a newsworthy story about something that has been happening regularly for the last 7 years. 🙄

[Stairway 2 7]

U.S. Embassy Kyiv
@USEmbassyKyiv
Russia's shelling of Stanytsia Luhanska in Ukrainian government-controlled territory in Donbas hit a kindergarten, injured two teachers, and knocked out power in the village. The aggressor in Donbas is clear - Russia

This attack, as with so many others, is a heinous Russian violation of the Minsk Agreements and again demonstrates Russia’s disregard for Ukrainian civilians on both sides of the line of contact

[hibsbollah]

The Russian minority leaders in Luhansk and Donetsk announce ‘evacuation’ of their civilians to Russia. At the same time Putin accuses Ukraine of ‘human rights violations and discrimination of Russian speakers’ in Ukraine. Ukraine foreign minister accuses Russia of propaganda. Squeaky bomsh time.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220218/aafc27ae76f1ef3cc83263d7292fa568.jpg


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[Keith_M]

Good news….Truss is on the ground in Ukraine, problem solved.


Can we send Boris over as well?

[Bostonhibby]

Can we send Boris over as well?Risky, how can we be sure Truss has found Ukraine?

Last thing we want is the two of them wandering around El Salvador in their party gear.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/taking-ukraine-would-finish-putin

Not often I agree with a spectator article.


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[Bostonhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/taking-ukraine-would-finish-putin

Not often I agree with a spectator article.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGood article and theres a lot of sense in there, I struggle with seeing the Conservative party and the city of London being able to sever it ties with, and in the case of the conservatives penchant for, their share of that dodgy Russian money.
Much easier to launder it through London,as well as acquire residency, so a special challenge for our lightweight government.

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[Renfrew_Hibby]

Why will it take a war before action is taken against Russian shenanigans in the City of London?
So if there's no conflict we just carry on as we were for the next couple of decades as we have for the last couple?

[Ozyhibby]

Why will it take a war before action is taken against Russian shenanigans in the City of London?
So if there's no conflict we just carry on as we were for the next couple of decades as we have for the last couple?

Nailed it.


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[Ozyhibby]

Good article and theres a lot of sense in there, I struggle with seeing the Conservative party and the city of London being able to sever it ties with, and in the case of the conservatives penchant for, their share of that dodgy Russian money.
Much easier to launder it through London,as well as acquire residency, so a special challenge for our lightweight government.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

I believe we are the weak link in the west. When it comes down to it, the Germans will find other sources of gas but I think we’ll do everything we can to keep laundering that money.


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[Bostonhibby]

Why will it take a war before action is taken against Russian shenanigans in the City of London?
So if there's no conflict we just carry on as we were for the next couple of decades as we have for the last couple?In a nutshell, yes highly likely, if Russia invade then economic sanctions will be enforced by the real influencers here, the US and the EU, if we want to avoid falling foul of the US, and Nato generally we will be expected to finally do something meaningful about our Russian interests and residents that move through or are concealed in the UK.

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[Ozyhibby]

Will we really start confiscating assets though? Will Chelsea be confiscated by the state? The club would have to cease operations? That’s what would need to happen here and I don’t see the Tory party having the stomach for it.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Will we really start confiscating assets though? Will Chelsea be confiscated by the state? The club would have to cease operations? That’s what would need to happen here and I don’t see the Tory party having the stomach for it.


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You really think Labour would confiscate Chelsea?!!!

I doubt there's any government in Europe would shut down a top flight football club.

[Paul1642]

Will we really start confiscating assets though? Will Chelsea be confiscated by the state? The club would have to cease operations? That’s what would need to happen here and I don’t see the Tory party having the stomach for it.


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I’m pretty sure a buyer could be found no problem. It’s not going to come to that though.

[Bostonhibby]

Will we really start confiscating assets though? Will Chelsea be confiscated by the state? The club would have to cease operations? That’s what would need to happen here and I don’t see the Tory party having the stomach for it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot a chance, there'll be huffing and puffing and Bozo shouting loudly at photo opportunities but given the level of Russian donations that seem to be made to the party in power we are extremely unlikely to do much to inconvenience the UK'S Russian corner.

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[Stairway 2 7]

I believe we are the weak link in the west. When it comes down to it, the Germans will find other sources of gas but I think we’ll do everything we can to keep laundering that money.


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Not a chance Germany are getting another source like that, they are clearly the most exposed on their reliance on Russian gas. We all should have invested in nuclear 20 years ago

[Ozyhibby]

I’m pretty sure a buyer could be found no problem. It’s not going to come to that though.

I’m not sure it could just be sold? There would be a long legal process where Abramovich would seek to overturn the confiscation?


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[Ozyhibby]

Not a chance Germany are getting another source like that, they are clearly the most exposed on their reliance on Russian gas. We all should have invested in nuclear 20 years ago

I see no need for Scotland to bother with nuclear? Wind is far cheaper and we now have more than we use?


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[Hibrandenburg]

I see no need for Scotland to bother with nuclear? Wind is far cheaper and we now have more than we use?


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:agree: Yesterday, 75% of power used in Germany was provided by wind turbines. The rest of the world is catching up.