Ukraine

[Ozyhibby]

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-destroyed-13-russian-military-aircraft-in-2-weeks-how/

Article on Ukraines recent success in shooting down Russian planes.


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[Hibs4185]

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-destroyed-13-russian-military-aircraft-in-2-weeks-how/

Article on Ukraines recent success in shooting down Russian planes.


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Another boat sunk today too! Amazing what they are able to achieve

[Lendo]

Seems like Ukraine has lost it's first HIMARS yesterday sadly. Crazy to think they haven't had any destroyed before now. Was inevitable I guess.

Think they have lost 1 Abrahams and about 16% of the Bradleys that the US has provided. The US has plenty more of both in mothball storage and the Bradley has proven to be one of the most important pieces of equipment supplied

[cabbageandribs1875]

Orban says Trump wont fund Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-wont-give-money-ukraine-if-elected-says-hungarys-orban-2024-03-11/

[Ozyhibby]

Orban says Trump wont fund Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-wont-give-money-ukraine-if-elected-says-hungarys-orban-2024-03-11/

That’s a given. Trump wins and I think Europe will be at war within 5 years. I think the US will be on our side but only logistical support by then.


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[Kato]

That’s a given. Trump wins and I think Europe will be at war within 5 years. I think the US will be on our side but only logistical support by then.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf Trump is in charge they won't be on Europe's side in anyway.

Warmongering gathering pace, alongside a ramping up of organised xenophobia from the right in every country.

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[StevieC]

I believe that 20 Days in Mariupol is being shown on Channel 4 tonight at 22.30

[Keith_M]

I believe that 20 Days in Mariupol is being shown on Channel 4 tonight at 22.30


Cheers Steven, I'll be watching that.

[Hibs4185]

I believe that 20 Days in Mariupol is being shown on Channel 4 tonight at 22.30


I just watched that this afternoon. It’s heartbreaking.

You see the Russians denying the maternity hospital bombing as propaganda with actors.

I just wish the west would step up and finish these *unts once and for all

[Stairway 2 7]

I believe that 20 Days in Mariupol is being shown on Channel 4 tonight at 22.30

Absolutely unbelievable footage and available on catch up. I'd advise all useful idiots that thought Russia would be welcomed in Mariupol or Dnipro to watch it. Brave civilians fighting for their country and telling Putin what they think, I couldn't help wonder what their life is like under occupation. The scenes after the war crimes inside the maternity hospital and theatre are brutal. Deliberately targeting hospitals and civilian houses and remember Russia claims these people are Russians. He showed how much he actually believes that when he tried to flatten the people in Kherson after Ukraine recaptured it.

[tamig]

I just watched that this afternoon. It’s heartbreaking.

You see the Russians denying the maternity hospital bombing as propaganda with actors.

I just wish the west would step up and finish these *unts once and for all

Absolutely harrowing. That Russian propaganda after the maternity hospital attack was outrageous. Poor people of that city. Far too many shocking incidents to highlight but what a fantastic film.

[tamig]

Absolutely unbelievable footage and available on catch up. I'd advise all useful idiots that thought Russia would be welcomed in Mariupol or Dnipro to watch it. Brave civilians fighting for their country and telling Putin what they think, I couldn't help wonder what their life is like under occupation. The scenes after the war crimes inside the maternity hospital and theatre are brutal. Deliberately targeting hospitals and civilian houses and remember Russia claims these people are Russians. He showed how much he actually believes that when he tried to flatten the people in Kherson after Ukraine recaptured it.
I’ve been following their fast-track rebuild of the city. Former residents priced out of property in prime locations where many of their own homes once stood in favour of richer incomers from the likes of St Petersburg. An absolute scandal on all fronts.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’ve been following their fast-track rebuild of the city. Former residents priced out of property in prime locations where many of their own homes once stood in favour of richer incomers from the likes of St Petersburg. An absolute scandal on all fronts.

Lebensraum im Westen.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I’ve been following their fast-track rebuild of the city. Former residents priced out of property in prime locations where many of their own homes once stood in favour of richer incomers from the likes of St Petersburg. An absolute scandal on all fronts.

thank god nothing like that has ever happened in Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

thank god nothing like that has ever happened in Scotland.

Nothing in our lifetime mate. Gentrification is crap but it isn't similar to orphans being sent across the world and having their history and nationality erased, people being murdered and tortured

Good but harrowing article in the guardian last week on the re-education and torture of the newly occupied people
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/deportation-re-population-russia-occupied-ukraine-zaporizhzhia

[AgentDaleCooper]

Nothing in our lifetime mate. Gentrification is crap but it isn't similar to orphans being sent across the world and having their history and nationality erased, people being murdered and tortured

Good but harrowing article in the guardian last week on the re-education and torture of the newly occupied people
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/deportation-re-population-russia-occupied-ukraine-zaporizhzhia

not in our lifetime, but the fall out continues to be consequential to this day, as it will be for Ukraine in 150 years, unless people get their heads around what colonialism and imperialism actually are, i.e. where they begin and end, and people recognise the absolute carnage it has wreaked on social cohesion within these isles.

historical and national erasure of all sorts 1000000000% still goes on daily in Scotland (never mind the rest of the UK!), and affects pretty much every minority people and culture.

i know how this is coming across, so i'll not post any more on the matter - but what i'm saying is absolutely relevant to what is happening in Ukraine, as it applies to their future.

[superfurryhibby]

not in our lifetime, but the fall out continues to be consequential to this day, as it will be for Ukraine in 150 years, unless people get their heads around what colonialism and imperialism actually are, i.e. where they begin and end, and people recognise the absolute carnage it has wreaked on social cohesion within these isles.

historical and national erasure of all sorts 1000000000% still goes on daily in Scotland (never mind the rest of the UK!), and affects pretty much every minority people and culture.

i know how this is coming across, so i'll not post any more on the matter - but what i'm saying is absolutely relevant to what is happening in Ukraine, as it applies to their future.

I agree with you. The social cleansing of lower income earners from our cities is shameful.

War is profitable for some and Ukraine is a cash bonanza across a whole spectrum of interests.

There is no profit in peace, this war will go on and on.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree with you. The social cleansing of lower income earners from our cities is shameful.

War is profitable for some and Ukraine is a cash bonanza across a whole spectrum of interests.

There is no profit in peace, this war will go on and on.

War is profitable is just a phrase people use. It has no basis in reality. Yes some companies will make money but the vast majority of business lose. War has never made any society richer. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is getting richer due to this war.

And there is no social cleansing going on that I can see. Yes there is massive problems with housing but there is no attempt to force anyone from the city.


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[Bridge hibs]

Russian elections ongoing, wonder who will win

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree with you. The social cleansing of lower income earners from our cities is shameful.

War is profitable for some and Ukraine is a cash bonanza across a whole spectrum of interests.

There is no profit in peace, this war will go on and on.

It is shameful but its got no comparison with genocide in Ukraine, Palestine or Syria.

The war will only end when Russia and Ukraine want it and both won't want that any time soon, its been a decade so far and it could be the same going forward.

Putin said this week he'll not think about ceasefire as it would be madness to stop when advancing around Adviika. Ukraine won't stop whilst Russia are in their land. It would be poor from anyone in the west to tell them to give up their land when it's not our people being tortured and conquered imo

[Stairway 2 7]

Russian elections ongoing, wonder who will win

I expect a 95% turnout but 99% of eligible voters still voting for Vlad 😆

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/russia-ukraine-war-who-profits-fossil-fuel-cost-of-living/

Profit from war is nothing new. A swift google search shows that it's not exactly a hot topic, the question of who benefits. Needless to say arms manufacturers and energy companies. The monies involved are staggering.


"Aside from those involved in the extraction, processing and distribution of fossil fuels – which, remarkably, directly relate to seven of the 20 highest performing sectors – arms manufacturers are, predictably, the other major beneficiaries".


https://www.ft.com/content/b2713bd1-afa5-4638-ab2d-be0c4e8a7ab7

Shell reported its highest ever quarterly profits as it capitalised on the volatility in global energy markets following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Adjusted earnings at Europe’s largest oil company rose to $9.1bn in the first three months of the year, almost three times the $3.2bn it recorded a year earlier. That beat average analyst estimates of $8.7bn and was up from $6.4bn in the final three months of 2021. The results complete a set of bumper first-quarter earnings for the world’s biggest energy companies, which have provoked renewed calls from UK politicians for a windfall tax on oil and gas profits. BP reported underlying profits of $6.2bn, its highest since 2008, while Norway’s state-controlled Equinor recorded its highest ever quarterly pre-tax earnings of $18bn.

Shell chief executive Ben van Beurden pushed back on the suggestion the oil and industry was just profiting from the conflict. “It’s not just a war profit as some people would like to point out,” van Beurden said. “It is very much also the performance of the company, which has significantly strengthened in the run-up and also during the pandemic.”

[Stairway 2 7]

Companies profit but countries don't that's obvious. The west are spending billions per nation and Ukraine and Russias economy will be a shadow of what it would have been without war.

All that has nothing to do with whether Ukraine should have defended itself against an evil invasion. We also should have armed regardless if it makes Norway or Saudi Arabia huge funds

[superfurryhibby]

Companies profit but countries don't that's obvious. The west are spending billions per nation and Ukraine and Russias economy will be a shadow of what it would have been without war.

All that has nothing to do with whether Ukraine should have defended itself against an evil invasion. We also should have armed regardless if it makes Norway or Saudi Arabia huge funds

I doubt very much whether Saudi or Norway make profit from arming anyone, that rests with weapons manufacturers and who actually knows who owns them.

My point was, and the article shows this, is how diverse the profitable interests are. The economies of Ukraine or Russia are irrelevant to that, as is the "evil" nature of Russia's invasion.

This war is too profitable to stop.

I'll await all the posts about Ukranian offensive's etc, etc, the outcome will be the same as last year, stalemate.

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt very much whether Saudi or Norway make profit from arming anyone, that rests with weapons manufacturers and who actually knows who owns them.

My point was, and the article shows this, is how diverse the profitable interests are. The economies of Ukraine or Russia are irrelevant to that, as is the "evil" nature of Russia's invasion.

This war is too profitable to stop.

I'll await all the posts about Ukranian offensive's etc, etc, the outcome will be the same as last year, stalemate.

Saudi and Norway profit from oil prices obviously!. Why is Evil in brackets, if you don't think their invasion is evil your a wrongin i think personally. War is to profitable to stop if you believe conspiracies that arms manufacturers control the countries who are all paying for this.

Ukraine has retaking 60% of the occupied land. After 6 months of fighting useful idiots like Tucker Carlson and Corbyn were shouting for a stalemate, Ukraine retook Kherson after that, the biggest city Russia conquered. Its up to the Ukrainians to say when they give up

[Bridge hibs]

I expect a 95% turnout but 99% of eligible voters still voting for Vlad 😆

Protests outside the polling stations seemingly

A few more accidentally falling out of windows sadly

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russia-s-top-oil-buyer-deals-a-blow-to-putin/ar-BB1jWxbb?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=25be965226fc4425af1671311ec381f1&ei=47

Slowly but surely sanctions will strangle the Russian economy.


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[Hibs4185]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russia-s-top-oil-buyer-deals-a-blow-to-putin/ar-BB1jWxbb?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=25be965226fc4425af1671311ec381f1&ei=47

Slowly but surely sanctions will strangle the Russian economy.


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Especially trying to fix exploding oil refineries with no western parts

[superfurryhibby]

Saudi and Norway profit from oil prices obviously!. Why is Evil in brackets, if you don't think their invasion is evil your a wrongin i think personally. War is to profitable to stop if you believe conspiracies that arms manufacturers control the countries who are all paying for this.

Ukraine has retaking 60% of the occupied land. After 6 months of fighting useful idiots like Tucker Carlson and Corbyn were shouting for a stalemate, Ukraine retook Kherson after that, the biggest city Russia conquered. Its up to the Ukrainians to say when they give up

Give up or not will be decided oartly by whether the west continues to fund the supply of weapons and other support to Ukraine. It’s not just weapons manufacturers who “control” the countries who are paying, the article showed how diverse the profit from war is. I tend toward believing that our democracy is a sham, that the vested interest of capital is what determines social, domestic and foreign policy.

As for evil, where to start......

The morality of war is complex. Our media manipulates, our political leaders display huge double standards and we, the public have to navigate this. Just cause, like invading Iraq or Afghanistan, supporting despotic regimes (like our Saudi “allies” or the Israelis) and their just causes?

Are the weapons manufacturers evil, or the people awarded contracts to develop infrastructure ( a euphemism for exploit and extort every penny possible)?

On a personal level, I am troubled by the cruelty associated with industrial animal based food production. We also know it’s very damaging for our environment. Is the meat industry “evil” and are the people complicit in perpetuating that “evil” by their food choices?

I’m not comfortable with moral crusading. We know the Russian invasion is abhorrent, etc, etc.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t massive profit in it for multi national and elite corporate interest. You don’t need to be a wrong un or conspiracist to see that. The British establishment and our friends “care” because it suits our interest to do so.

[DaveF]

That FSB lot are rubbish at preventing anything but you have to give them credit for always arresting folk (normally within a day of the incident) and handing them to Putin for a 'it was Ukraine' speech.

[DaveF]

Russia going all in on the Ukraine angle publishing mashed up videos of Ukrainian officials saying how it was fun last night in Russia and so on.

Predictable and pathetic.

[Bridge hibs]

Russia going all in on the Ukraine angle publishing mashed up videos of Ukrainian officials saying how it was fun last night in Russia and so on.

Predictable and pathetic.Yep and then they will blame the US and the UK and every other country they hate, didnt some Isis Islamic group claim responsibility ?

[Stairway 2 7]

Absolutely horrendous for the poor people isis also killed 40 in Afghanistan yesterday although I've not seen it reported many places. The US sent Intel to Russia 4 weeks ago that isis was planning an attack Russia captured two cells, this was sadly expected.

Isis have released a statement claiming it, with pictures of the attackers weeks before the attack in Tajikistan beside the isis flag.
https://twitter.com/azelin/status/1771527847200387354

Unfortunately I've seen videos of one of the attackers when he was caught and then after his interrogation. They cut off his ear and put it in his mouth. Shocking even if the ****bag deserves no sympathy

[Keith_M]

It's totally crazy that Putin is blaming Ukraine for the attack on Moscow, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Sadly. a lot of the Russian population will probably believe him.

[Bridge hibs]

It's totally crazy that Putin is blaming Ukraine for the attack on Moscow, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Sadly. a lot of the Russian population will probably believe him.

Yeah and despite Stairway posting above that the US sent intel to Russia about the attack prior to it happening, ****ing crazy !!

Mind you just as surprising the US were trying to help the Russians by giving them forewarning

[Bristolhibby]

I’ve been following their fast-track rebuild of the city. Former residents priced out of property in prime locations where many of their own homes once stood in favour of richer incomers from the likes of St Petersburg. An absolute scandal on all fronts.

You’d have to have your bumps felt buying a property in the new “Russian” territories.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah and despite Stairway posting above that the US sent intel to Russia about the attack prior to it happening, ****ing crazy !!

Mind you just as surprising the US were trying to help the Russians by giving them forewarning

An account I follow was talking about it being imminent weeks ago. It's easier for Russia to blame a hidden plot than to say they aren't all seeing


@CalibreObscura
Will be interesting if the first major successful ISIS ExOps strike is in Russia.

The US alert is interesting, especially as the FSB bust 2+ cells. Expect the US is still passing SIGINT-derived to RF, like they did to the IRI (of course, the other way around would never happen)
10:26 PM · Mar 7, 2024
·

[Bridge hibs]

An account I follow was talking about it being imminent weeks ago. It's easier for Russia to blame a hidden plot than to say they aren't all seeing


@CalibreObscura
Will be interesting if the first major successful ISIS ExOps strike is in Russia.

The US alert is interesting, especially as the FSB bust 2+ cells. Expect the US is still passing SIGINT-derived to RF, like they did to the IRI (of course, the other way around would never happen)
10:26 PM · Mar 7, 2024
·Why are the US giving Russia intel ? Surely Russia would never replicate that. I know Russia are still dining at the world table (which surprises me) but is there an agreement that they all have to share intel ?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Barack Obama founded ISIS

and "crooked" Hilary Clinton co-founded ISIS


so says this imbecile Otto English on X: "Even by Trump’s deluded standards this is mad. Trump claims President Obama founded ISIS." / X (twitter.com) (https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1771560765218033949)

[Paul1642]

Why are the US giving Russia intel ? Surely Russia would never replicate that. I know Russia are still dining at the world table (which surprises me) but is there an agreement that they all have to share intel ?

I think when it comes to a terrorist attack on members of the public, diplomatic relations rightly don’t prevent this being shared.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/defenceu/status/1771864087267291183?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Black Sea fleet must be getting pretty small now?


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[Moulin Yarns]

A nice wee bit about the Dnipro kids


https://news.stv.tv/east-central/ukrainian-orphans-mark-two-years-in-scotland-trip-back-to-their-first-outing-to-blair-drummond-safari-park

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/jimmysecuk/status/1773713906235548107?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Warfare is changing fast.


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[judas]

https://x.com/jimmysecuk/status/1773713906235548107?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Warfare is changing fast.


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Could drones still save Ukraine? Surely the West will have the advantage there.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1778032326095634615?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b83d5034-c3e9-4291-8f0f-d95940ba8045?shareToken=ab99589b8a7aa250d2f35f196a 163a6f

Disgusting from UK.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b83d5034-c3e9-4291-8f0f-d95940ba8045?shareToken=ab99589b8a7aa250d2f35f196a 163a6f

Disgusting from UK.


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What a great article well done the Times in not bowing to pressure, I'd say it should apply to Israel too. Shocking from the ministry of sport to cowardly let themselves cave in to the IOC. We already knew the IOC were in Putin's pocket anyway

[Hibs4185]

Big day tomorrow with the vote in the US regarding aid.

It all looks good, but I pray that nothing pops up and scuppers it.

It’s truly barbaric what is happening to Ukraine and I hope it’s gives everyone the impetus to ensure Russia loses emphatically

[tamig]

Big day tomorrow with the vote in the US regarding aid.

It all looks good, but I pray that nothing pops up and scuppers it.

It’s truly barbaric what is happening to Ukraine and I hope it’s gives everyone the impetus to ensure Russia loses emphatically

Fingers crossed its all approved. This hold-up has caused many more lives to be lost in Ukrainian cities and on the front-lines. The whole thing is tragic. All down to one dangerous madman.

[judas]

Big day tomorrow with the vote in the US regarding aid.

It all looks good, but I pray that nothing pops up and scuppers it.

It’s truly barbaric what is happening to Ukraine and I hope it’s gives everyone the impetus to ensure Russia loses emphatically

Massive. Not sure when the outcome of the vote will be known GMT, but this is big.

A vote to provide NO further aid will be a turning point for US power around the world imo.

It would mean another campaign, abandoned by the US when it became tough. Another promise to defend the free world broken. Faith in the US as an ally will be diminished greatly and it would play into the previous Putin narrative that the US can’t be relied on. The US will shrivel on the world stage and so will its revenue streams.

We are watching history unfold. Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea need to step up too, if the bill passes they must reciprocate relative to their own resources.

Sadly, the conditions for this conflict have been birthed, to a great extent by the US in particular. The genesis is essentially the same in all global conflicts.

[BS44]

Large Ukranian drone attack on power and petro chemical facilities in different cities in Russia, several major fires reported

[Bridge hibs]

Large Ukranian drone attack on power and petro chemical facilities in different cities in Russia, several major fires reported

These are the things Im more uncomfortable with, defend your country by whatever means but hitting inside Russia Im not too sure, I know there is little chance of peace anytime soon but that just gives the mad man more impetus to strike Ukraine harder, and its not just military he is targeting, its innocent civilian's

[Keith_M]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b83d5034-c3e9-4291-8f0f-d95940ba8045?shareToken=ab99589b8a7aa250d2f35f196a 163a6f

Disgusting from UK.


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That is totally disgusting.

I find it hard to believe that Frazer would have been part of this but surely Sunak knew.

[Hibs4185]

These are the things Im more uncomfortable with, defend your country by whatever means but hitting inside Russia Im not too sure, I know there is little chance of peace anytime soon but that just gives the mad man more impetus to strike Ukraine harder, and its not just military he is targeting, its innocent civilian's

So it’s ok for Russia to bomb anything it wants but Ukraine can’t hit anything inside Russia?

Ukraine is hitting sites which funds Putin’s war.

Bonkers to suggest Ukraine can’t take the war to Russia

[Bridge hibs]

So it’s ok for Russia to bomb anything it wants but Ukraine can’t hit anything inside Russia?

Ukraine is hitting sites which funds Putin’s war.

Bonkers to suggest Ukraine can’t take the war to RussiaThats not what I said was it ? Ukraine are defending their own territory from a Russian invasion. Zelensky is pleading for aid to rebuild infrastructure and to secure modern weapons to combat the invasion and to take back what is rightfully theirs

What happens if Ukraine use newly issued Western supplied weapons to hit Russia, thats escalation and its ****ing dangerous

If they are sending drones into Russia then to me that is not defending your own land, thats taking the war into Russia. If its to be believed Ukranian drones have hit fuel and power depots then do you honestly think mad Vlad wont respond in kind ?

It wasnt so long ago there were threats that Russia could blow up a Ukranian nuclear power plant, whos to say that mad Vlad may not decide to seek revenge ?

[cabbageandribs1875]

US House approves $61B Ukraine aid package

Moscow Marge will be raging

[Ozyhibby]

US House approves $61B Ukraine aid package

Moscow Marge will be raging

Great news.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Great news.


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Bill goes to the Senate now which is expected to pass it quickly, then Biden signs it into Law and it's bobs yer uncle

[Bristolhibby]

Thats not what I said was it ? Ukraine are defending their own territory from a Russian invasion. Zelensky is pleading for aid to rebuild infrastructure and to secure modern weapons to combat the invasion and to take back what is rightfully theirs

What happens if Ukraine use newly issued Western supplied weapons to hit Russia, thats escalation and its ****ing dangerous

If they are sending drones into Russia then to me that is not defending your own land, thats taking the war into Russia. If its to be believed Ukranian drones have hit fuel and power depots then do you honestly think mad Vlad wont respond in kind ?

It wasnt so long ago there were threats that Russia could blow up a Ukranian nuclear power plant, whos to say that mad Vlad may not decide to seek revenge ?

Destroying Russias means to wage war in Russia is totally legitimate and Ukraine must be praised for their restraint.

Hitting fuel (money) and logistical targets is totally normal if someone has invaded your country and you have the ability to hit back while degrading their ability to wage war at the same time.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

These are the things Im more uncomfortable with, defend your country by whatever means but hitting inside Russia Im not too sure, I know there is little chance of peace anytime soon but that just gives the mad man more impetus to strike Ukraine harder, and its not just military he is targeting, its innocent civilian's

How can Russia escalate more. They are using the full force of the nation, war time production, tanks, ships missles. Hitting where they make money to produce these ie oil is a no brainer. Allies did the same in Germany tbf.

Anyway deal is signed 5 month to late but signed. Next is 1970s f16 son which will still help, whilst Israel get new f35s?

[Lendo]

Germany sending one more Patriot battery, which is good but in reality they need dozens more to close off the whole of Ukrainian airspace.

[Stairway 2 7]

Germany sending one more Patriot battery, which is good but in reality they need dozens more to close off the whole of Ukrainian airspace.

Yeah fair play Germany though sending 3 of their 12 patriots. USA has sent 1 of 63

[Jones28]

US House approves $61B Ukraine aid package

Moscow Marge will be raging

Tfft.

[Bishop Hibee]

What’s the endgame for Ukraine’s allies? Can they keep going to the magic money tree to prop up Ukraine which is unlikely to retake land up to the old border with Russia in the east let alone the Crimea. Or is ‘endless war’ helpful to incumbent regimes?

[Stairway 2 7]

What’s the endgame for Ukraine’s allies? Can they keep going to the magic money tree to prop up Ukraine which is unlikely to retake land up to the old border with Russia in the east let alone the Crimea. Or is ‘endless war’ helpful to incumbent regimes?

What's the option let Russia continue it's genocide let Ukraine fall and have Ukranians in mass graves like Bucha or children abducted like in Kherson.

This war has been happening for over a decade and it'll continue unless Russia leaves Ukraine. We can choose to help them buy giving them our old weapons, not actual money from the clichéd money tree like we have been.

[Bishop Hibee]

A war of attrition then. Ukraine are struggling for men on the ground. If it’s a numbers game Russia will win. I think eventually, could be a few years, there will be a ceasefire and a de-facto new border. Can’t see the Crimea ever being returned to Ukrainian rule either.

Best hope for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.

[Stairway 2 7]

A war of attrition then. Ukraine are struggling for men on the ground. If it’s a numbers game Russia will win. I think eventually, could be a few years, there will be a ceasefire and a de-facto new border. Can’t see the Crimea ever being returned to Ukrainian rule either.

Best hope for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.

Ukraine haven't even had their next round of mobilisation they won't run out of men just as they haven't for the last decade of the war. What war isn't a war of attrition.

Ukraine has had no US aid for almost 6 months and held well £60 billion will help them more though. Two years ago Kyiv was surrounded and the full might of Russia was hitting them. Two years later the biggest city Russia conquered Kherson is Ukrainian. Ukraine won't fall now so everything from here is an absolutely massive win from when everyone thought they would be conquered.

[Hibs4185]

Russia has no professional army left. All conscripts and ancient vehicles.

They have numbers but they are burning through more than they can make.

If anyone is going to run out of steam it will be the Russians.

Ukraine’s allies are spending a fraction of their defence budget to contain and possibly defeat Putin.

If Putin is allowed to win, it will cost ten times as much in the long term because his ambitions don’t stop at Ukraine.

We have to stand up to Putin and show the other dictators and autocrats that we have the resolve to win otherwise Iran, china etc will use our weakness to their advantage which will cost us even more money.

This russia can’t be defeated attitude boggles my mind

[Ozyhibby]

Russia has no professional army left. All conscripts and ancient vehicles.

They have numbers but they are burning through more than they can make.

If anyone is going to run out of steam it will be the Russians.

Ukraine’s allies are spending a fraction of their defence budget to contain and possibly defeat Putin.

If Putin is allowed to win, it will cost ten times as much in the long term because his ambitions don’t stop at Ukraine.

We have to stand up to Putin and show the other dictators and autocrats that we have the resolve to win otherwise Iran, china etc will use our weakness to their advantage which will cost us even more money.

This russia can’t be defeated attitude boggles my mind

Last sentence most important. Russian economy is tiny compared to what they are up against. Eventually it will collapse under the weight of sanctions and unaffordable military spending.


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[Bristolhibby]

Last sentence most important. Russian economy is tiny compared to what they are up against. Eventually it will collapse under the weight of sanctions and unaffordable military spending.


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Exactly how the West beat Germany and Japan in WW2.

Economic might.

Remember the Americans (and us) sent billions of pounds worth of material to both Russia and China during the war. Sure Russia bled for victory, but would be goosed without Western logistics.

J

[MKHIBEE]

Exactly how the West beat Germany and Japan in WW2.

Economic might.

Remember the Americans (and us) sent billions of pounds worth of material to both Russia and China during the war. Sure Russia bled for victory, but would be goosed without Western logistics.

J
Didn’t Britain provide 33% of Germany’s war material prior to the war starting?

[Bristolhibby]

Didn’t Britain provide 33% of Germany’s war material prior to the war starting?

Not sure about that one. I’d be surprised if so.

Germany did have a problem in not having any natural resources (hence Lebensraum).

I know they imported a lot from Sweden. Made synthetic fuel from coal (which they had) and took lots of natural oil from the Romanian fields.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure about that one. I’d be surprised if so.

Germany did have a problem in not having any natural resources (hence Lebensraum).

I know they imported a lot from Sweden. Made synthetic fuel from coal (which they had) and took lots of natural oil from the Romanian fields.

J

Doesn’t really matter. Yes we traded with them before the war. And then we stopped. Almost. Happens with all adversaries in wars. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Russia exported oil to Germany throughout the whole war? Maybe I imagined that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Doesn’t really matter. Yes we traded with them before the war. And then we stopped. Almost. Happens with all adversaries in wars. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Russia exported oil to Germany throughout the whole war? Maybe I imagined that.


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Yeah up until 42 I think. Obviously Soviet union heavily supplied Germany with munitions and resources from 34 until 41. Ask the Polish about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact gr

[Bristolhibby]

Yeah up until 42 I think. Obviously Soviet union heavily supplied Germany with munitions and resources from 34 until 41. Ask the Polish about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact gr

Always wondered why we went to war against Germany in 39 for invading Poland, but the Soviets did the exact same thing and they were given a free pass and become our allies.

J

[superfurryhibby]

Doesn’t really matter. Yes we traded with them before the war. And then we stopped. Almost. Happens with all adversaries in wars. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Russia exported oil to Germany throughout the whole war? Maybe I imagined that.


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I don't think so.

However, the international corporations that run America had no qualms about so, or so it seems.

"We have Standard Oil shipping enemy fuel through Switzerland for the Nazi occupation forces in France; Ford trucks transporting German troops; I.T.T. helping supply the rocket bombs that marauded much of London ; and I.T.T. building the Focke-Wulfs that dropped those bombs. Long and shocking is the list of diplomats and businessmen alike who had their own ways of profiting from the war."


Preface to the book TRADING WITH THE ENEMY: An Exposé of The Nazi-American Money-Plot 1933-1949 by Charles Higham; Hale, London, 1983.

[Hibs4185]

Always wondered why we went to war against Germany in 39 for invading Poland, but the Soviets did the exact same thing and they were given a free pass and become our allies.

J

Funnily enough I read something about this today.

Poland had security guarantees from Britain, hence why we went to war with Germany.

[superfurryhibby]

Funnily enough I read something about this today.

Poland had security guarantees from Britain, hence why we went to war with Germany.

The Soviets annexed the eastern part of Poland at the same time. It was a carve up between them and the Nazis in 1939.

[Bristolhibby]

Funnily enough I read something about this today.

Poland had security guarantees from Britain, hence why we went to war with Germany.

But why as there were British grantees for Polands sovereignty did we ignore the Soviets taking the Eastern Part of Poland?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

J

Edit - just read this in the Wiki article, now where have I seen this recently?

“The Soviet government announced it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland, because the Polish state had collapsed – according to Soviet propaganda”

[Bristolhibby]

But why as there were British grantees for Polands sovereignty did we ignore the Soviets taking the Eastern Part of Poland?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

J

Edit - just read this in the Wiki article, now where have I seen this recently?

“The Soviet government announced it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland, because the Polish state had collapsed – according to Soviet propaganda”

The answer is in the article. The secret clause in our pact to defend Poland stipulated the defence was against Germany, not the USSR. And we always knew we’d need the Soviets vs Germany.

Sneaky bar stewards.

France and Britain refrained from a critical reaction to the Soviet invasion and annexation of Eastern Poland since neither country expected or wanted a confrontation with the Soviet Union at that time.[103][104] Under the terms of the Polish-British Common Defence Pact of 25 August 1939, Britain had promised assistance if a European power attacked Poland.[Note 9] A secret protocol of the pact, however, specified that the European power referred to Germany.[106] When Polish Ambassador Edward Raczyński reminded Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax of the pact, he was bluntly told that it was Britain's exclusive right to declare war on the Soviet Union or not.[103] British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain considered making a public commitment to restore the Polish state but eventually issued only general condemnations.[103] This stance represented Britain's attempt at balance as its security interests included trade with the USSR that would support its war effort and might lead to a possible future Anglo-Soviet alliance against Germany (which indeed happened two years later).[106] Public opinion in Britain was varied among expressions of outrage at the invasion on the one hand and a perception that Soviet claims in the region were reasonable on the other.[106]
While France had made promises to Poland, including the provision of air support, these were not honoured. A Franco-Polish Military Alliance was signed in 1921 and amended thereafter. The agreements were not strongly supported by the French military leadership and the relationship deteriorated during the 1920s and 1930s.[107] The French correctly considered the German-Soviet alliance to be fragile and overt denunciation of, or action against the Soviet Union would serve neither France's nor Poland's best interests.[104] Once the Soviets had occupied Poland, the French and the British realized there was nothing they could do for Poland on short notice and plans for a long-term victory were devised instead. The French forces, that had advanced tentatively into the Saar region in early September, retreated behind the Maginot Line upon the Polish defeat on 4 October.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/maxseddon/status/1786076320339734598?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I would think this would be serious?


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://x.com/maxseddon/status/1786076320339734598?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I would think this would be serious?


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Because Oz doesn't explain the twitter links


Gazprom lost $7bn last year, its first loss in a quarter century, after gas sales more than halved in the fallout from Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine.

[Bristolhibby]

Because Oz doesn't explain the twitter links


Gazprom lost $7bn last year, its first loss in a quarter century, after gas sales more than halved in the fallout from Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine.

Would the gangsters really in charge in Russia (who also own the privatised state industries) not look for a way of getting out of this situation?

Remove Putin? Or is his grip so vice like that he’s more powerful than the gangsters?

J

[Ozyhibby]

Would the gangsters really in charge in Russia (who also own the privatised state industries) not look for a way of getting out of this situation?

Remove Putin? Or is his grip so vice like that he’s more powerful than the gangsters?

J

His grip will be vice like right up to the very moment it’s not. When it happens it will happen quickly and everyone will say how surprised they are.


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[Bridge hibs]

Would the gangsters really in charge in Russia (who also own the privatised state industries) not look for a way of getting out of this situation?

Remove Putin? Or is his grip so vice like that he’s more powerful than the gangsters?

JPutin is not going to go on his own volition, he needs pushed and to be honest he has been at it for years and no-one has pushed him yet. He was supposed to be dying from cancer, so unless he has found a miracle cure then the **** seems bullet proof

He seems to be enjoying himself with his threats and all the publicity he is getting as well as brown nosing up China and Irans *****. All those sanctions imposed on Russia, have they made a dent enough for him to actually give a **** ?

A couple of weeks ago there was talk of Russia regrouping and ready to hit Ukraine hard, I thought they were struggling for armoury. Zelensky has said they need arms/weapons etc because Russia is not only a threat to Ukraine but to neighbouring countries such as Poland, Finland etc. where the **** is he getting the manpower and weapons to invade other european countries

Mad ****ing world we live in

[jacomo]

A war of attrition then. Ukraine are struggling for men on the ground. If it’s a numbers game Russia will win. I think eventually, could be a few years, there will be a ceasefire and a de-facto new border. Can’t see the Crimea ever being returned to Ukrainian rule either.

Best hope for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.


In my view Russia has already lost. Their war aims are unachievable and they’ve now guaranteed the Donbass and Crimea will never be at peace.

The problem is that Ukraine hasn’t won yet.

[Stairway 2 7]

Putin is not going to go on his own volition, he needs pushed and to be honest he has been at it for years and no-one has pushed him yet. He was supposed to be dying from cancer, so unless he has found a miracle cure then the **** seems bullet proof

He seems to be enjoying himself with his threats and all the publicity he is getting as well as brown nosing up China and Irans *****. All those sanctions imposed on Russia, have they made a dent enough for him to actually give a **** ?

A couple of weeks ago there was talk of Russia regrouping and ready to hit Ukraine hard, I thought they were struggling for armoury. Zelensky has said they need arms/weapons etc because Russia is not only a threat to Ukraine but to neighbouring countries such as Poland, Finland etc. where the **** is he getting the manpower and weapons to invade other european countries

Mad ****ing world we live in

Ukraine has slowly got 1970s equipment from Europe, they are still waiting to get them 1970s fighter jets this summer. Poland and Finland are nato but even on their own they have huge armies with modern fighter jets they would blooter Russia without the rest of nato

I met a mate ex polish forces then security studies in Nottingham last week and he said the same as I thought. The west is using Ukrainian lives to deplete Russia beyond what they could ever hope for. Everyone said the game changed when Ukraine got a few dozen HIMARS they retook the biggest city Russia had taken Kherson and a huge amount of Donesk. Nato has 700 HIMARS sitting doing nothing. Ukraine is begging for old f16 planes NATO HAS modern f35s that would blow them away. We all have long range missles that would destroy any target in Russia

Instead we let Russia deplete an enormous amount of military equipment dating back to the Soviet times

A cool thread in which guys that have been counting Russian military equipment via satellite imagery, show just how much has been blown up in Ukraine. He says the rate of destroyed tanks and heavy military vs the Russians building new ones takes them to running out next summer. Even if wrong this war has taken Russia from having thousands of tanks spare and millions of shell's to only firing what they create, that is extraordinary

[Bristolhibby]

Ukraine has slowly got 1970s equipment from Europe, they are still waiting to get them 1970s fighter jets this summer. Poland and Finland are nato but even on their own they have huge armies with modern fighter jets they would blooter Russia without the rest of nato

I met a mate ex polish forces then security studies in Nottingham last week and he said the same as I thought. The west is using Ukrainian lives to deplete Russia beyond what they could ever hope for. Everyone said the game changed when Ukraine got a few dozen HIMARS they retook the biggest city Russia had taken Kherson and a huge amount of Donesk. Nato has 700 HIMARS sitting doing nothing. Ukraine is begging for old f16 planes NATO HAS modern f35s that would blow them away. We all have long range missles that would destroy any target in Russia

Instead we let Russia deplete an enormous amount of military equipment dating back to the Soviet times

A cool thread in which guys that have been counting Russian military equipment via satellite imagery, show just how much has been blown up in Ukraine. He says the rate of destroyed tanks and heavy military vs the Russians building new ones takes them to running out next summer. Even if wrong this war has taken Russia from having thousands of tanks spare and millions of shell's to only firing what they create, that is extraordinary

Interesting. I wonder if Russias enemies can see a time to push. Chechnya, Transnistria in Moldova, the Georgian territories that Russia annexed and Azerbaijan against Armenia. If not now, then when would Russia be weaker?

Would open up a number of other fronts.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting. I wonder if Russias enemies can see a time to push. Chechnya, Transnistria in Moldova, the Georgian territories that Russia annexed and Azerbaijan against Armenia. If not now, then when would Russia be weaker?

Would open up a number of other fronts.

J

Georgia is in open revolt just now. Massive demonstrations in the streets every night now.

https://x.com/kshoshiashvili/status/1786797657509208439?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Ukraine has slowly got 1970s equipment from Europe, they are still waiting to get them 1970s fighter jets this summer. Poland and Finland are nato but even on their own they have huge armies with modern fighter jets they would blooter Russia without the rest of nato

I met a mate ex polish forces then security studies in Nottingham last week and he said the same as I thought. The west is using Ukrainian lives to deplete Russia beyond what they could ever hope for. Everyone said the game changed when Ukraine got a few dozen HIMARS they retook the biggest city Russia had taken Kherson and a huge amount of Donesk. Nato has 700 HIMARS sitting doing nothing. Ukraine is begging for old f16 planes NATO HAS modern f35s that would blow them away. We all have long range missles that would destroy any target in Russia

Instead we let Russia deplete an enormous amount of military equipment dating back to the Soviet times

A cool thread in which guys that have been counting Russian military equipment via satellite imagery, show just how much has been blown up in Ukraine. He says the rate of destroyed tanks and heavy military vs the Russians building new ones takes them to running out next summer. Even if wrong this war has taken Russia from having thousands of tanks spare and millions of shell's to only firing what they create, that is extraordinary

this was my main objection to the whole thing in the first place. NATO doing exactly what hawks like Zbigniew Brzezinski hoped it would do - turn Ukraine into a meat grinder to serve western interests. such a view was deemed to be apologising for Putin back then :aok:

the last line of your post comes very close to fetishizing war strategy, which along with a sense of moral certainty about many divisive issues, i find pretty disconcerting (though i may have picked you up wrong).

[Ozyhibby]

this was my main objection to the whole thing in the first place. NATO doing exactly what hawks like Zbigniew Brzezinski hoped it would do - turn Ukraine into a meat grinder to serve western interests. such a view was deemed to be apologising for Putin back then :aok:

Is it NATO or Russia that is doing this?


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[Stairway 2 7]

this was my main objection to the whole thing in the first place. NATO doing exactly what hawks like Zbigniew Brzezinski hoped it would do - turn Ukraine into a meat grinder to serve western interests. such a view was deemed to be apologising for Putin back then :aok:

the last line of your post comes very close to fetishizing war strategy, which along with a sense of moral certainty about many divisive issues, i find pretty disconcerting (though i may have picked you up wrong).

Total mince it's up there with saying she deserved it because she had a little dress on. Russia is to blame for its imperialist genocidal invasion. Putin has said as much and Prigozhin both said only tankies think NATO expansion was the reason. Russia has been trying to take Ukraine for a decade.

No sure what your second bit is about it's a fact that Russia has depleted a huge amount of Soviet stocks and wasted 500k of its poor men and for what a small part of Ukraine. F them an vile conquest of a sovereign country

[AgentDaleCooper]

Is it NATO or Russia that is doing this?


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Russia is doing it, but if what Stairway said earlier is true, NATO is allowing it because it's in their interests.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Total mince it's up there with saying she deserved it because she had a little dress on. Russia is to blame for its imperialist genocidal invasion. Putin has said as much and Prigozhin both said only tankies think NATO expansion was the reason. Russia has been trying to take Ukraine for a decade.

No sure what your second bit is about it's a fact that Russia has depleted a huge amount of Soviet stocks and wasted 500k of its poor men and for what a small part of Ukraine. F them an vile conquest of a sovereign country

r.e. the first bit...i don't see the point in the whole 'what was the ONE cause of the way' debate, as it's just nonsense. there's lots of contributing factors, and if you want to deny that NATO is one of them, go ahead, be the bam you want to be, i'm sure you'll be in good company.

Russia has coveted Ukraine since it gained independence, I'm sure. Russia is an imperialist power, and i have no doubt that it has imperialist ambitions. But NATO has also explicitly coveted Ukraine and Georgia as members, and has done so publicly, despite agreements being in place with Russia that it wouldn't.


the second bit is just in reference to a thread describing what Russian things have been blown up as 'cool' - just find this really weird.


i absolutely concur, by the way - F Putin and his supporters, and their vile conquest. But also, F NATO. It's absolutely rank.

[Stairway 2 7]

r.e. the first bit...i don't see the point in the whole 'what was the ONE cause of the way' debate, as it's just nonsense. there's lots of contributing factors, and if you want to deny that NATO is one of them, go ahead, be the bam you want to be, i'm sure you'll be in good company.

Russia has coveted Ukraine since it gained independence, I'm sure. Russia is an imperialist power, and i have no doubt that it has imperialist ambitions. But NATO has also explicitly coveted Ukraine and Georgia as members, and has done so publicly, despite agreements being in place with Russia that it wouldn't.


the second bit is just in reference to a thread describing what Russian things have been blown up as 'cool' - just find this really weird.


i absolutely concur, by the way - F Putin and his supporters, and their vile conquest. But also, F NATO. It's absolutely rank.

The thread should be delighted when Russia suffer military losses, apart from Nazi apologists I'd hope everyone would be the same if there was a thread about Nazi military losses in 1939.

Russia blaming anyone for an iota of attacking without any threat another country with its full military might is as stupid as Israel blaming October 7th for the genocide it's performing now.

Prigozhin said the war had nothing to do with NATO it was military conquest that started the war, nonsense about Nazis whilst trying to murder a Jewish president. Tankies that say Russia was provoked never answer how is this war different from Russia flattening and killing tens of thousands in Chechnya or 40,000 in Allepo.

Russia hasn't batted an eyelid when Finland on it border has joined NATO, why because NATO isn't going to attack anyone. You can see why Georgians, Finns and Sweeds want to join when Russia is next door

[AgentDaleCooper]

The thread should be delighted when Russia suffer military losses, apart from Nazi apologists I'd hope everyone would be the same if there was a thread about Nazi military losses in 1939.


i'm literally never delighted by military losses, because the people dying are generally speaking innocent, or at least relatively innocent compared to their leaders. sometimes the way folk comment on this stuff, you'd have thought this was a thread about football.


Russia blaming anyone for an iota of attacking without any threat another country with its full military might is as stupid as Israel blaming October 7th for the genocide it's performing now.


you're the one talking about blame, i'm not particularly interested in it, as it's a completely subjective concept. moral judgements seem to give quite a few folk on here stiffies though, so i get why it's hard not to default towards them in this case when it's like shooting fish in a barrel.


Prigozhin said the war had nothing to do with NATO it was military conquest that started the war, nonsense about Nazis whilst trying to murder a Jewish president. Tankies that say Russia was provoked never answer how is this war different from Russia flattening and killing tens of thousands in Chechnya or 40,000 in Allepo.


glad that you, Prigozhin and Putin can agree on something then! :aok: i don't think i've ever said that Putin is doing anything different here to in Chechnya or Allepo. I just think NATO did have something to do with it. Prigozhin and Putin have also said that too.


Russia hasn't batted an eyelid when Finland on it border has joined NATO, why because NATO isn't going to attack anyone. You can see why Georgians, Finns and Sweeds want to join when Russia is next door


Probably because they know that NATO is fundamentally racist, and are far less likely to intervene on behalf of Slavs as they are Scandinavians. But yeah - I can absolutely see why they all just want to join NATO. It doesn't follow that NATO isn't f***ing horrible. As you have said, it looks a lot like they are happy with letting Ukraine and Russia destroy each other, rather than give them the arms they need for a quick victory.

[Stairway 2 7]

i'm literally never delighted by military losses, because the people dying are generally speaking innocent, or at least relatively innocent compared to their leaders. sometimes the way folk comment on this stuff, you'd have thought this was a thread about football.




you're the one talking about blame, i'm not particularly interested in it, as it's a completely subjective concept. moral judgements seem to give quite a few folk on here stiffies though, so i get why it's hard not to default towards them in this case when it's like shooting fish in a barrel.




glad that you, Prigozhin and Putin can agree on something then! :aok: i don't think i've ever said that Putin is doing anything different here to in Chechnya or Allepo. I just think NATO did have something to do with it. Prigozhin and Putin have also said that too.




Probably because they know that NATO is fundamentally racist, and are far less likely to intervene on behalf of Slavs as they are Scandinavians. But yeah - I can absolutely see why they all just want to join NATO. It doesn't follow that NATO isn't f***ing horrible. As you have said, it looks a lot like they are happy with letting Ukraine and Russia destroy each other, rather than give them the arms they need for a quick victory.
Blaming anyone but Russia in one of the most morally one sided genocides let's them commit more Mariupols and Groznys. Ukraine is just another act of the same show for Russia, flatten Chechnya, Ukraine, North Georgia, Syria. None of them threatened Russia but still they bombed

Very weird behaviour not being happy when a military that is systematically raping, sending orphans thousands of miles away and killing civilians deliberately gets pushed back and gets defeated. The allies killing German soldiers saved millions of more being slaughter but you wouldn't be happy with the losses. If an Israeli or Russian fighter jet was going to blow up a hospital or civilian block and it got blootered out the sky I would be ******g delighted.

[superfurryhibby]

The thread should be delighted when Russia suffer military losses, apart from Nazi apologists I'd hope everyone would be the same if there was a thread about Nazi military losses in 1939.

Russia blaming anyone for an iota of attacking without any threat another country with its full military might is as stupid as Israel blaming October 7th for the genocide it's performing now.

Prigozhin said the war had nothing to do with NATO it was military conquest that started the war, nonsense about Nazis whilst trying to murder a Jewish president. Tankies that say Russia was provoked never answer how is this war different from Russia flattening and killing tens of thousands in Chechnya or 40,000 in Allepo.

Russia hasn't batted an eyelid when Finland on it border has joined NATO, why because NATO isn't going to attack anyone. You can see why Georgians, Finns and Sweeds want to join when Russia is next door

I think you should tone down the labelling of people who don't agree with you. I appreciate you're passionate on this board, but using term like Nazi apologists towards those that don't share your convictions tends to stifle debate a bit, which is a bit Fascist in itself...see where this goes?

[StevieC]

I personally don’t think there is a year left in this conflict. Just my opinion.

I suppose it depends on what you view as an end to the conflict.

An end, for many Ukrainians, won’t be until the areas Russia illegally occupies are returned to Ukrainian control (which could include Crimea and the Donbas). Some will accept a ceasefire and a demarcation line (as happened in 2014) but they won’t view it as an end to the conflict.

Speaking with Ukrainian friends, the views are mixed. Some are still adamant they will fight until Ukraine is once again sovereign. Some are weary of the war and they want an end, and no longer see the benefit of retaking destroyed towns and villages.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think you should tone down the labelling of people who don't agree with you. I appreciate you're passionate on this board, but using term like Nazi apologists towards those that don't share your convictions tends to stifle debate a bit, which is a bit Fascist in itself...see where this goes?

I said people who wouldn't have been happy with nazi military defeats would be nazi sympathisers, I can't see how that's fascist more anti fascist. I don't see how anyone would be unhappy about genocide being defeated militarily

[AgentDaleCooper]

I said people who wouldn't have been happy with nazi military defeats would be nazi sympathisers, I can't see how that's fascist more anti fascist. I don't see how anyone would be unhappy about genocide being defeated militarily

I think you are wilfully misinterpreting what i've said

[Hibs4185]

Just catching up with this thread after a day travelling. Read it a few times (after a couple of wines) to see if I’m missing something

Don’t really know what to say.

It’s Putin-esque

[superfurryhibby]

I said people who wouldn't have been happy with nazi military defeats would be nazi sympathisers, I can't see how that's fascist more anti fascist. I don't see how anyone would be unhappy about genocide being defeated militarily

[

The thread should be delighted when Russia suffer military losses, apart from Nazi apologists I'd hope everyone would be the same if there was a thread about Nazi military losses in 1939.

What's the link between being delighted at Russian military losses, except Nazi apologists to even begin with. How are you connecting this to someone essentially saying they don't revel in the death of anyone?

It's a sentiment I share. There are many victims in conflict. You already understand (although it took a while) that Russia is a brutal dictatorship and that brutal dictatorships have ways of coercing people into serving them. Of course there are also plenty of Russian patriots, fascists, etc, etc. However, there are also Russian victims, many of them will be numbered amongst the soldiers serving in their armies.

[Ozyhibby]

[


What's the link between being delighted at Russian military losses, except Nazi apologists to even begin with. How are you connecting this to someone essentially saying they don't revel in the death of anyone?

It's a sentiment I share. There are many victims in conflict. You already understand (although it took a while) that Russia is a brutal dictatorship and that brutal dictatorships have ways of coercing people into serving them. Of course there are also plenty of Russian patriots, fascists, etc, etc. However, there are also Russian victims, many of them will be numbered amongst the soldiers serving in their armies.

The time for sympathising with any innocent Russians will be after their defeat.


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[Stairway 2 7]

[


What's the link between being delighted at Russian military losses, except Nazi apologists to even begin with. How are you connecting this to someone essentially saying they don't revel in the death of anyone?

It's a sentiment I share. There are many victims in conflict. You already understand (although it took a while) that Russia is a brutal dictatorship and that brutal dictatorships have ways of coercing people into serving them. Of course there are also plenty of Russian patriots, fascists, etc, etc. However, there are also Russian victims, many of them will be numbered amongst the soldiers serving in their armies.

Took a while, I've never shared links to anything showing dead soldiers and constantly said the soldiers are poor people, literally mostly from the east of the country. They are an invading army causing a genocide though so rather their death than civilians. They are the attacking army and every town the have captured has suffered rape murder and abduction of children. So yes I'm delighted with military defeats for them

The link is him saying it's poor to be happy with military defeats, as I said whether it was the Nazis, Russia in Syria or the US in Vnam its sad for the poor cannon fodder but I am delighted when an attacked nation fights back.

[Stairway 2 7]

Great article in the Atlantic from a young Ukrainian saying to much has changed for the youth to become Russian or distance themselves to the western world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/05/ukraine-change-compromise-russia/678312/

UKRAINE HAS CHANGED TOO MUCH TO COMPROMISE WITH RUSSIA
My generation has tasted freedom and experienced a competitive, vibrant political life. We can’t be made a part of what Russia has become.

By Illia Ponomarenko

[AgentDaleCooper]

The time for sympathising with any innocent Russians will be after their defeat.


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so i shouldn't have sympathy for the innocent Russians that i consider to be close friends?

and i shouldn't have sympathy for the peoples who are being ethnically cleansed by being sent to the front line?

should i not be absolutely condemning NATO for allowing the war to continue for so long, when (according to our resident experts on here) they could be ending this any time the wanted, but instead are choosing to deplete Russia as much as possible, and in doing so facilitating Putin's ethnic cleansing of Russia?

or should we all just be cosplaying as vaguely liberal war-time leaders like yourselves?

if i lived in Ukraine, or was from Ukraine - i.e. if i was directly impacted by the war - then i'd probably be dehumanizing my enemy out of necessity. but i'm not, and as far as i know, neither are you or others on here. we're all just fannies sitting in Scotland with big opinions and keyboards, which is why i think it's absolutely rancid to be delighting in any deaths, and describing anything to do with the war as 'cool'.

[Stairway 2 7]

so i shouldn't have sympathy for the innocent Russians that i consider to be close friends?

and i shouldn't have sympathy for the peoples who are being ethnically cleansed by being sent to the front line?

should i not be absolutely condemning NATO for allowing the war to continue for so long, when (according to our resident experts on here) they could be ending this any time the wanted, but instead are choosing to deplete Russia as much as possible, and in doing so facilitating Putin's ethnic cleansing of Russia?

or should we all just be cosplaying as vaguely liberal war-time leaders like yourselves?

if i lived in Ukraine, or was from Ukraine - i.e. if i was directly impacted by the war - then i'd probably be dehumanizing my enemy out of necessity. but i'm not, and as far as i know, neither are you or others on here. we're all just fannies sitting in Scotland with big opinions and keyboards, which is why i think it's absolutely rancid to be delighting in any deaths, and describing anything to do with the war as 'cool'.
It's pretty simple of course everyone feels sorry for the soldiers whether they are Russians now, US soldiers in Vietnam or poor Germans sent to fight the allies, that's a given.

Normal people in my opinion though are delighted when genocidal invading armies suffer military defeats. When the Normandy landings were successful I bet Scottish people were delighted, would you have said why are you happy this isn't a football game what about the dead Germans.

Russia fired 55 missles at Ukraine last night and 21 drones I hope every warship and launch site gets blootered, yes poor Russians will die but they ate the invaders.

Perhaps your too close if you've Comrades in the evil Russian army. Tell them to abscond if they can because they are committing genocide and invading a free country

[AgentDaleCooper]

It's pretty simple of course everyone feels sorry for the soldiers whether they are Russians now, US soldiers in Vietnam or poor Germans sent to fight the allies, that's a given.

Normal people in my opinion though are delighted when genocidal invading armies suffer military defeats. When the Normandy landings were successful I bet Scottish people were delighted, would you have said why are you happy this isn't a football game what about the dead Germans.

Russia fired 55 missles at Ukraine last night and 21 drones I hope every warship and launch site gets blootered, yes poor Russians will die but they ate the invaders.

Perhaps your too close if you've Comrades in the evil Russian army. Tell them to abscond if they can because they are committing genocide and invading a free country

no, because i would be directly involved, and would thus be dehumanising my enemies out of sheer self-preservation - the only valid excuse IMO.

genuine question - do you think that your moral pronouncements are objective?

[Stairway 2 7]

no, because i would be directly involved, and would thus be dehumanising my enemies out of sheer self-preservation - the only valid excuse IMO.

genuine question - do you think that your moral pronouncements are objective?

So you only care if your involved I want all invading armies committing genocide to be defeated whether that is Russia in Darfur, I honestly think its shocking if you don't. I don't really care for nationalism or self preservation, the people from Edinburgh fighting Franco weren't involved but didn't like genocide.

It's not dehumanising they are humans and it's good if their armies are defeated.

My morals are objective in that if an army is leaving mass graves, systematically raping and abducting orphans in the sovereign land they conquer, I want them Militarily defeated and I'm sorry that that comes at the cost of the military personnel.

[StevieC]

if i lived in Ukraine, or was from Ukraine - i.e. if i was directly impacted by the war - then i'd probably be dehumanizing my enemy out of necessity. but i'm not, and as far as i know, neither are you or others on here. we're all just fannies sitting in Scotland with big opinions and keyboards

No we’re not.

I have many good friends, and a godson, in Dnipro. And other friends in Kyiv and Lviv.

[AgentDaleCooper]

No we’re not.

I have many good friends, and a godson, in Dnipro. And other friends in Kyiv and Lviv.

Apologies - I absolutely didn't mean to include you in that, Stevie C - or anyone else who has ties to Ukraine.

[Bristolhibby]

What would happen if the Russian conscripts just said no?

Ain’t going. If enough of them do it the war will end.

They must know they are in the wrong. I know they are getting force fed propaganda but this is the day and age of iPhones and VPNs.

It’s a matter of choice.

As far as I’m aware Russia isn’t executing its troops (it prefers to send them to the Donbass using WW1 tactics).

So just don’t go.

J

[AgentDaleCooper]

What would happen if the Russian conscripts just said no?

Ain’t going. If enough of them do it the war will end.

They must know they are in the wrong. I know they are getting force fed propaganda but this is the day and age of iPhones and VPNs.

It’s a matter of choice.

As far as I’m aware Russia isn’t executing its troops (it prefers to send them to the Donbass using WW1 tactics).

So just don’t go.

J

it's only as simple as that when you're not actually inside it IMO. people from the Tuvan Republic, for example, are promised loads of money for going, which is direly needed by most families, as the area has awful poverty and only one road linking it to the rest of Russia (Putin built a railway, but a decade later, the first train is yet to arrive). Their culture is relatively new to westernisation, so there's a lot of alcoholism, and a lot of beliefs that we would see as 'superstition' or 'paganism', so our own brand of rationality isn't necessarily going to translate directly, and they're going to be much more suspicious of western voices than Russian ones, particularly as they have one of their own (Shoigu - a ****ing sociopath) in the Russian government. They are going through a tried and tested imperial method of thinning out an undesired population whilst absorbing the remainder into the warm glow of armed-forces culture (it's exactly what happened to the Gaels, as well as many, many other corners of British Imperialism, and US imperialism for that matter).

This might seem like a niche concern to most people in the west, but it's a kind of silent genocide that people must be cognizant of. It doesn't mean you support Russia, much like my starting to learn Yiddish as an act of solidarity with my Jewish friends (hearing increased anti-semitism in my community) doesn't mean that i support ANYTHING Israel has done to Palestinians (in fact, this is a view shared by all of the Jewish people I know).

[Ozyhibby]

it's only as simple as that when you're not actually inside it IMO. people from the Tuvan Republic, for example, are promised loads of money for going, which is direly needed by most families, as the area has awful poverty and only one road linking it to the rest of Russia (Putin built a railway, but a decade later, the first train is yet to arrive). Their culture is relatively new to westernisation, so there's a lot of alcoholism, and a lot of beliefs that we would see as 'superstition' or 'paganism', so our own brand of rationality isn't necessarily going to translate directly, and they're going to be much more suspicious of western voices than Russian ones, particularly as they have one of their own (Shoigu - a ****ing sociopath) in the Russian government. They are going through a tried and tested imperial method of thinning out an undesired population whilst absorbing the remainder into the warm glow of armed-forces culture (it's exactly what happened to the Gaels, as well as many, many other corners of British Imperialism, and US imperialism for that matter).

This might seem like a niche concern to most people in the west, but it's a kind of silent genocide that people must be cognizant of. It doesn't mean you support Russia, much like my starting to learn Yiddish as an act of solidarity with my Jewish friends (hearing increased anti-semitism in my community) doesn't mean that i support ANYTHING Israel has done to Palestinians (in fact, this is a view shared by all of the Jewish people I know).

I dare say you are correct but from the Ukrainian point of view all they see are people trying to kill them and they have no time to be thinking about their motivations for doing so until they are stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AgentDaleCooper]

I dare say you are correct but from the Ukrainian point of view all they see are people trying to kill them and they have no time to be thinking about their motivations for doing so until they are stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed, but this is my point: we do have the time, and there is no necessity for us to dehumanize innocent victims on either side, nor is it in remotely good taste to be celebrating any deaths.

[Stairway 2 7]

Agreed, but this is my point: we do have the time, and there is no necessity for us to dehumanize innocent victims on either side, nor is it in remotely good taste to be celebrating any deaths.

No one celebrates deaths ffs they celebrate military victories against invaders committing genocide. If I was you I would fly to Ho Chi Minh City or hop over to Stalingrad or Adwa in Ethiopia. All like many cities have statues celebrating defeating invading enemies, Kyiv will have them too now. They don't gloat about the invading deads soldiers that is absurd the celebrate beating back an invading army to get peace, of course war costs lives but blame the invaders

[Hibs4185]

Agreed, but this is my point: we do have the time, and there is no necessity for us to dehumanize innocent victims on either side, nor is it in remotely good taste to be celebrating any deaths.

I’ve not really wanted to get involved in this debate but I can’t help it.

Yes it’s not nice to dehumanise soldiers on both sides but the Russians do have a choice no matter how hard it is.

If Scotland invaded England to try and steal land and genocide innocent English and gain independence, I’d kindly decline. Even if I was offered £20k per month. If I was conscripted, I’d get my family out of there asap. If all else failed, I’d get conscripted and then try to do a runner.

In regards to NATO and bleeding Russia dry. Two options as discussed. Option 1 intervene and ‘wipe the floor with Russia’. Well that’s escalation and likely WWW3. Maybe not the best option

Option 2 - Do nothing and watch innocent Ukrainians get killed.


I don’t agree with many things about our supply of arms etc but it’s a fine balancing act and apart from the US funding debacle, it sounds like arms are now arriving.

Putin has to be stopped and there is no magic bullet unfortunately.

Look at the threats from Putin and his cronies. Every day it’s ‘nuclear war’ ‘wipe the uk off the map’, and much more.

No one is threatening Putin and Russia. Yesterday at his coronation, he was playing a TSAR song which basically means he is one. That’s all he cares about is using bluff and threats to steal land so he can be remembered as Vladimir the great.

Unfortunately for Ukraine and every other nation he has invaded or interfered in, his ambition is measured in lives. He doesn’t care about 100,000 dead people, he cares more about 100 square miles of land and a few more needless billions for his pals.

There is no doubt, NATO would destroy Russia. 30 year old American technology is hammering modern Russia equipment.

The biggest risk in all of this, is China and the ‘evil axis’ being emboldened and the only way to stop that is for the collective west to put Putin firmly in his place.

I’ve mentioned before on various posts that I love a balanced debate and understand why people vote for trump (I hate him) but I can see both sides of a debate and understand them.

When it comes to Ukraine and Russia, I cannot see any debate which supports Russia’s war in Ukraine. Every reason Putin and Russia gives, is absolute rubbish.

when F16’s arrive and ATACMS take more of a toll, I will rejoice in every Russian set back. Yes I feel sorry when I see dead Russia servicemen but as I said at the start they do have a choice and I have no doubt that they support Putin, but more so they will do whatever mother Russia requires.

I love Scotland I’d do everything in my power to make us independent, but I wouldn’t join a scottish republican army and cross the border into England to kill innocents.

In short, Russia and Putin can GTF

[AgentDaleCooper]

I’ve not really wanted to get involved in this debate but I can’t help it.

Yes it’s not nice to dehumanise soldiers on both sides but the Russians do have a choice no matter how hard it is.

If Scotland invaded England to try and steal land and genocide innocent English and gain independence, I’d kindly decline. Even if I was offered £20k per month. If I was conscripted, I’d get my family out of there asap. If all else failed, I’d get conscripted and then try to do a runner.

In regards to NATO and bleeding Russia dry. Two options as discussed. Option 1 intervene and ‘wipe the floor with Russia’. Well that’s escalation and likely WWW3. Maybe not the best option

Option 2 - Do nothing and watch innocent Ukrainians get killed.


I don’t agree with many things about our supply of arms etc but it’s a fine balancing act and apart from the US funding debacle, it sounds like arms are now arriving.

Putin has to be stopped and there is no magic bullet unfortunately.

Look at the threats from Putin and his cronies. Every day it’s ‘nuclear war’ ‘wipe the uk off the map’, and much more.

No one is threatening Putin and Russia. Yesterday at his coronation, he was playing a TSAR song which basically means he is one. That’s all he cares about is using bluff and threats to steal land so he can be remembered as Vladimir the great.

Unfortunately for Ukraine and every other nation he has invaded or interfered in, his ambition is measured in lives. He doesn’t care about 100,000 dead people, he cares more about 100 square miles of land and a few more needless billions for his pals.

There is no doubt, NATO would destroy Russia. 30 year old American technology is hammering modern Russia equipment.

The biggest risk in all of this, is China and the ‘evil axis’ being emboldened and the only way to stop that is for the collective west to put Putin firmly in his place.

I’ve mentioned before on various posts that I love a balanced debate and understand why people vote for trump (I hate him) but I can see both sides of a debate and understand them.

When it comes to Ukraine and Russia, I cannot see any debate which supports Russia’s war in Ukraine. Every reason Putin and Russia gives, is absolute rubbish.

when F16’s arrive and ATACMS take more of a toll, I will rejoice in every Russian set back. Yes I feel sorry when I see dead Russia servicemen but as I said at the start they do have a choice and I have no doubt that they support Putin, but more so they will do whatever mother Russia requires.

I love Scotland I’d do everything in my power to make us independent, but I wouldn’t join a scottish republican army and cross the border into England to kill innocents.

In short, Russia and Putin can GTF

you're projecting your own circumstances, culture and more or less entire brain onto country of people. do you have any idea how diverse a country Russia is?

it's absolutely true that we need Russia to lose, but when you start to dehumanize people, you start to normalise war.

only thing i'll add is that western liberalism does eventually want peace, but it's only means of achieving that is by converting every single country into a westernised liberal democracy. lots of countries understandably feel threatened by this, particularly when you look at how NATO has behaved in the gulf countries. so i'm sorry, but it's just absolute nonsense to say that Russia doesn't feel threatened by NATO, particularly when western powers have a) interfered in elections in Russia (in the 90s, to prevent the Communist party being re-elected), b) interfered in elections in the Ukraine (in the 2010s, when John McCaine was on the campaign trail drumming up support for EU facing parties - i'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, i'm just saying it's obviously going to antagonise Russia in the same way that it would antagonise the US if the reverse were to happen).

in short, Putin and his cronies can indeed GTF, but writing off a vast country that might as well be a continent seems to me a bit like writing off all of its inhabitants, which is seriously dangerous. what you are basically wishing for is an entire population to be poisoned against the Russian people, without having any real grasp of diversity in that country, in terms of circumstance, culture, ethnicity, political persuasion, history and so on. Look at it another way - if Gedaffi had been doing something on the same scale, would you write off the entire continent of Africa, just because people from the centre and south of the continent were being either drafted or manipulated into the conflict?

another question - have you ever felt delight when British troops have been killed in any of our litany of unjust wars? And how do you view people who sign up to join the army here, given what this institution has been guilty of?

EDIT - two things to add:

1) when you say "...and I have no doubt that they support Putin, but more so they will do whatever mother Russia requires."

that's one absolute hell of a presumption to make about people who have been drafted, particularly when deserters aren't exactly met with a warm blanket and a cup of tea.

2) when I talk about what NATO has done to create the circumstances for war, this is not the same as it being an excuse for Putin to invade somewhere. Putin is responsible for Putin, and NATO are responsible for NATO. Neither Putin nor NATO are particularly responsible entities, hence the gravity of the mess we're in. Holding NATO to account doesn't mean letting Putin off the hook, unless you can only deal with black-and-white options (another worrying trend in today's age IMO).

[AgentDaleCooper]

No one celebrates deaths ffs they celebrate military victories against invaders committing genocide. If I was you I would fly to Ho Chi Minh City or hop over to Stalingrad or Adwa in Ethiopia. All like many cities have statues celebrating defeating invading enemies, Kyiv will have them too now. They don't gloat about the invading deads soldiers that is absurd the celebrate beating back an invading army to get peace, of course war costs lives but blame the invaders

yeah, and if we fended off an invasion on our shores we'd have a statues and celebrations too - but war isn't a spectator sport.

[Hibs4185]

you're projecting your own circumstances, culture and more or less entire brain onto country of people. do you have any idea how diverse a country Russia is?

it's absolutely true that we need Russia to lose, but when you start to dehumanize people, you start to normalise war.

only thing i'll add is that western liberalism does eventually want peace, but it's only means of achieving that is by converting every single country into a westernised liberal democracy. lots of countries understandably feel threatened by this, particularly when you look at how NATO has behaved in the gulf countries. so i'm sorry, but it's just absolute nonsense to say that Russia doesn't feel threatened by NATO, particularly when western powers have a) interfered in elections in Russia (in the 90s, to prevent the Communist party being re-elected), b) interfered in elections in the Ukraine (in the 2010s, when John McCaine was on the campaign trail drumming up support for EU facing parties - i'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, i'm just saying it's obviously going to antagonise Russia in the same way that it would antagonise the US if the reverse were to happen).

in short, Putin and his cronies can indeed GTF, but writing off a vast country that might as well be a continent seems to me a bit like writing off all of its inhabitants, which is seriously dangerous. what you are basically wishing for is an entire population to be poisoned against the Russian people, without having any real grasp of diversity in that country, in terms of circumstance, culture, ethnicity, political persuasion, history and so on. Look at it another way - if Gedaffi had been doing something on the same scale, would you write off the entire continent of Africa, just because people from the centre and south of the continent were being either drafted or manipulated into the conflict?

another question - have you ever felt delight when British troops have been killed in any of our litany of unjust wars? And how do you view people who sign up to join the army here, given what this institution has been guilty of?

EDIT - two things to add:

1) when you say "...and I have no doubt that they support Putin, but more so they will do whatever mother Russia requires."

that's one absolute hell of a presumption to make about people who have been drafted, particularly when deserters aren't exactly met with a warm blanket and a cup of tea.

2) when I talk about what NATO has done to create the circumstances for war, this is not the same as it being an excuse for Putin to invade somewhere. Putin is responsible for Putin, and NATO are responsible for NATO. Neither Putin nor NATO are particularly responsible entities, hence the gravity of the mess we're in. Holding NATO to account doesn't mean letting Putin off the hook, unless you can only deal with black-and-white options (another worrying trend in today's age IMO).

Out of curiosity what isn’t NATO a particularly responsible entity? It seems responsible enough that Russia’s neighbours are keen to join it?

[Stairway 2 7]

yeah, and if we fended off an invasion on our shores we'd have a statues and celebrations too - but war isn't a spectator sport.

It's not a sport its human decency wherever it happens. Only dafties wouldn't be happy with genocides failing.

Are you angry at the good people spectating and shouting against Israeli genocide or is it only when they complain against your friends in the invading Russian army

[AgentDaleCooper]

It's not a sport its human decency wherever it happens. Only dafties wouldn't be happy with genocides failing.

Are you angry at the good people spectating and shouting against Israeli genocide or is it only when they complain against your friends in the invading Russian army

yeah, but in this case that isn't the whole story, as there is ethnic cleansing going on concurrently. i think i would use the word 'glad' rather than 'happy' to describe how i feel when Russia's army suffers losses...but because i have some perspective on the other side and am not completely myopic, i am also a bit sad about the cost of such a loss is.

in short, i am able to separate the people within the armed forces from the institution of the army, as well as from Putin himself. on some emotional level, a lot of people seem to be completely conflating these things.

what i find a bit distasteful is people absolutely geeking out on the details of the war, describing them as 'cool', and then castigating people who don't share their unmitigated glee when people die. I know that's not the bit that pleases you, but it's inseparable from the part that does.

and no, i don't have friends in the Russian army. i do know some Russian people who (obviously) completely oppose the war, and are terrified of people close to them being called up.

i guess that's the point though - it seems as though you don't have any connections to Russia, so maybe a complete othering comes naturally? :dunno:

r.e. Israel - it's very different, on pretty much every level...but i've been on absolute high alert for anti-semitism since the attacks, because one of the many crimes committed by the state of Israel is giving anti-semites ammunition - all they need to do is replace 'Israeli State' with 'Jews' and job's a good 'un (and I've heard plenty of this, before and after the Oct. 7 attacks).

Bibi and Putin are absolute ****bags, but i don't honestly think the armed forces at their disposal are much worse than our own, if you look at how we have conducted ourselves in Northern Ireland and the Gulf over recent years. The only difference is the insanity of the leadership.

[Bristolhibby]

you're projecting your own circumstances, culture and more or less entire brain onto country of people. do you have any idea how diverse a country Russia is?

it's absolutely true that we need Russia to lose, but when you start to dehumanize people, you start to normalise war.

only thing i'll add is that western liberalism does eventually want peace, but it's only means of achieving that is by converting every single country into a westernised liberal democracy. lots of countries understandably feel threatened by this, particularly when you look at how NATO has behaved in the gulf countries. so i'm sorry, but it's just absolute nonsense to say that Russia doesn't feel threatened by NATO, particularly when western powers have a) interfered in elections in Russia (in the 90s, to prevent the Communist party being re-elected), b) interfered in elections in the Ukraine (in the 2010s, when John McCaine was on the campaign trail drumming up support for EU facing parties - i'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, i'm just saying it's obviously going to antagonise Russia in the same way that it would antagonise the US if the reverse were to happen).

in short, Putin and his cronies can indeed GTF, but writing off a vast country that might as well be a continent seems to me a bit like writing off all of its inhabitants, which is seriously dangerous. what you are basically wishing for is an entire population to be poisoned against the Russian people, without having any real grasp of diversity in that country, in terms of circumstance, culture, ethnicity, political persuasion, history and so on. Look at it another way - if Gedaffi had been doing something on the same scale, would you write off the entire continent of Africa, just because people from the centre and south of the continent were being either drafted or manipulated into the conflict?

another question - have you ever felt delight when British troops have been killed in any of our litany of unjust wars? And how do you view people who sign up to join the army here, given what this institution has been guilty of?

EDIT - two things to add:

1) when you say "...and I have no doubt that they support Putin, but more so they will do whatever mother Russia requires."

that's one absolute hell of a presumption to make about people who have been drafted, particularly when deserters aren't exactly met with a warm blanket and a cup of tea.

2) when I talk about what NATO has done to create the circumstances for war, this is not the same as it being an excuse for Putin to invade somewhere. Putin is responsible for Putin, and NATO are responsible for NATO. Neither Putin nor NATO are particularly responsible entities, hence the gravity of the mess we're in. Holding NATO to account doesn't mean letting Putin off the hook, unless you can only deal with black-and-white options (another worrying trend in today's age IMO).

And the rapes and massacres. The levelling of cities like Muriopol? The drone attacks on blocks of flats? Were the conscripts forced into that?

It’s hard to feel sympathy for a collective of men when examples of their barbarism are so apparent. Plus the fact that they are in someone else’s country anyway.

J

[AgentDaleCooper]

And the rapes and massacres. The levelling of cities like Muriopol? The drone attacks on blocks of flats? Were the conscripts forced into that?

It’s hard to feel sympathy for a collective of men when examples of their barbarism are so apparent. Plus the fact that they are in someone else’s country anyway.

J

I don't know what soldiers are ordered to do and what they do off their own backs and neither do you.

I'm not talking about having sympathy for individuals who have done awful things, and I'm not shedding any tears for Wagner's legions of murderers and rapists set loose on the people of Ukraine.

I'm just not in the business of celebrating any of it, because while there are monsters in every army, the leadership are always the worst, and for every monster you can be sure there's a hell of a lot of terrified innocents with guns thrust upon them.

[Bristolhibby]

I don't know what soldiers are ordered to do and what they do off their own backs and neither do you.

I'm not talking about having sympathy for individuals who have done awful things, and I'm not shedding any tears for Wagner's legions of murderers and rapists set loose on the people of Ukraine.

I'm just not in the business of celebrating any of it, because while there are monsters in every army, the leadership are always the worst, and for every monster you can be sure there's a hell of a lot of terrified innocents with guns thrust upon them.

Still not sure where the angle is.

Yes innocents die. But surely that lies at the door of the aggressor?

Yes, I want the Russians rolled back out of Ukraine, and if that means thousands of Russian soldiers die, (and their will also be thousands of Ukrainians dying defending their country) then that’s just what happens when you pick a fight and lose.

I will celebrate Russian defeats in the field. As that means Ukraine is closer to kicking the aggressor off their land.

J

[AgentDaleCooper]

Still not sure where the angle is.

Yes innocents die. But surely that lies at the door of the aggressor?

Yes, I want the Russians rolled back out of Ukraine, and if that means thousands of Russian soldiers die, (and their will also be thousands of Ukrainians dying defending their country) then that’s just what happens when you pick a fight and lose.

I will celebrate Russian defeats in the field. As that means Ukraine is closer to kicking the aggressor off their land.

J

Good for you :aok:

[Paul1642]

Good for you :aok:

I’m just not sure what your suggestion as the alternative. I think all of us would be delighted if the war ended tonight without a single further life being lost (except maybe Putin and his inner circle in wee assassination).

Unfortunately that’s not going to happen without Russia withdrawing which isn’t looking remotely likely at the moment, and in the absence of a withdrawal Ukraine needs to fight to defend its sovereignty and its citizens. They cant do so without killing Russian soldiers and the only person who can stop that is Putin.

The blame for this war lies 100% with Putin and every soldier lost is his fault, not the Ukrainians and not NATOs. It really is that simple.

Lots of wars are / were a lot more complex than history would have you think but this is not one of those. I didn’t mourn the loss of a single ISIS “soldier” and felt genuine joy every time they lost a battle. That’s not dehumanising an enemy. They dehumanised themselves. The Russians have done the same and as far as I’m concerned every Russian loss is one less soldier to kill innocent Ukrainians.


All of the above is before you take into account that if Russia had steamrolled through Ukraine as easily as they expected, they would already have their sights on their next prey by now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

meanwhile another big turnout of protesters in Georgia last night against the 'Russian Law' the gov want to push through #GeorgiaProtests - Search / X (twitter.com) (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23GeorgiaProtests&src=typeahead_click)

[MKHIBEE]

Still not sure where the angle is.

Yes innocents die. But surely that lies at the door of the aggressor?

Yes, I want the Russians rolled back out of Ukraine, and if that means thousands of Russian soldiers die, (and their will also be thousands of Ukrainians dying defending their country) then that’s just what happens when you pick a fight and lose.

I will celebrate Russian defeats in the field. As that means Ukraine is closer to kicking the aggressor off their land.

J

Are you going to crack open the champagne?

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you going to crack open the champagne?

If Russia sent it soldiers back by miraculously stopping their blood lust or by force or if Netanyahu did the same then the veuve clicquot would be out.

[Hibrandenburg]

Russian advances seem to be gathering momentum. Russia claims to have made major advances after launching a battalion size attack and opening another front. This is putting more stress on Ukraine's already over stretched defences who are not only suffering from weapon shortages but manpower problems too.

As long as Putin can claim to be winning the war then he'll have support for it. Ukraine claim that their defences are holding but for how long?

[StevieC]

Russian advances seem to be gathering momentum. Russia claims to have made major advances after launching a battalion size attack and opening another front. This is putting more stress on Ukraine's already over stretched defences who are not only suffering from weapon shortages but manpower problems too.

As long as Putin can claim to be winning the war then he'll have support for it. Ukraine claim that their defences are holding but for how long?

That’s what I’ve been picking up as well, launched from Russian Belgorod region into Kharkiv Oblast. Too early to say if it’s diversion tactics to stretch Ukrainian defences or a serious push to Kharkiv.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hopefully military aid will start flowing again and the Ukrainians can force another Russian retreat. The more humiliation the Russians suffer the less Russians will support Putin. Ukraine can never win a military conflict against Russia but if they can continue to uphold the status quo, then Russians will eventually ask questions about the point of the war. Paradoxically only a Russian defeat will benefit the people of Russia, a victory will see the continuation of sanctions and a continued stalemate will only see the depletion of their human and material resources.

[Hibs4185]

Hopefully military aid will start flowing again and the Ukrainians can force another Russian retreat. The more humiliation the Russians suffer the less Russians will support Putin. Ukraine can never win a military conflict against Russia but if they can continue to uphold the status quo, then Russians will eventually ask questions about the point of the war. Paradoxically only a Russian defeat will benefit the people of Russia, a victory will see the continuation of sanctions and a continued stalemate will only see the depletion of their human and material resources.

I’d imagine every single resource will be in transit to shore up each defensive line.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’d imagine every single resource will be in transit to shore up each defensive line.

I hope not. As Stevie hinted at, it might be a diversion hoping to draw troops away from another area the Russians have got their eye on.

That said, I'm sure the Ukrainians have access to the best reconnaissance technology and will more than likely know exactly where the Russians are building up their resources.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Out of curiosity what isn’t NATO a particularly responsible entity? It seems responsible enough that Russia’s neighbours are keen to join it?

...the gulf...?

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt there is anything in 25,000 Russian troops in the north spaced over 700km. Russia and ukraine have both done border raids back and forth in the gray zone. I think the reason is to take as many troops away from the real battles in Donesk.

Russia had one chance to win when they bombed all Ukrainian airfields and attacked suddenly with 500k soldiers. Ukraine had Soviet weapons and no air defence. Russia isn't ever taking Ukraine and Ukraine won't take all of the conquered lands back. Ukraine had a stalemate for 10 years without the west. They have had next to no aid for 6 months and the losses have been small. The 60 billion from the US and 30 from the EU should stabilise things for the next few years but Ukraine won't stop regardless

Two maps. One is Ukraine in December 22 the other is now, you'll need a magnifying glass to notice any changes. Putin is giving a generation of children for completely flattened towns it doesn't make sense27860
27861

[Stairway 2 7]

meanwhile another big turnout of protesters in Georgia last night against the 'Russian Law' the gov want to push through #GeorgiaProtests - Search / X (twitter.com) (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23GeorgiaProtests&src=typeahead_click)

It's amazing the largest ever protest in Georgia the helicopter shots were spectacular. Georgia wants to be European but Russia still has a strong grip through its proxy. The youth is so pro EU that it's inevitable they will get the change they want. Brave people seeing as so many are being attacked by government agents

[Stairway 2 7]

Head of Russian MOD Sergei Shoigu fired and is replaced by Putins financial advisor Andrei Belousov. Shoigu was seen as corrupt although fiercely loyal to Putin in his 12 years in charge.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Head of Russian MOD Sergei Shoigu fired and is replaced by Putins financial advisor Andrei Belousov. Shoigu was seen as corrupt although fiercely loyal to Putin in his 12 years in charge.

Good riddance, though he'll be replaced by something equally as wretched

[Hibs4185]

...the gulf...?

As in the gulf war? I’m pretty sure nato allies participated but not actually NATO?

[Ozyhibby]

Well done the people of Georgia. Long way to go.

https://x.com/zourabichvili_s/status/1791848816230203711?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Hibernian Verse]

Slightly off/on topic. In a bar in Dunfermline last night we started chatting to some Usyk fans who were Ukrainian (obviously). My girlfriend was quite drunk and suggested that not all Russians can be bad people but the guy was having none of it.

Obviously alcohol doesn’t help but what is everyone’s thoughts?

[Jones28]

Slightly off/on topic. In a bar in Dunfermline last night we started chatting to some Usyk fans who were Ukrainian (obviously). My girlfriend was quite drunk and suggested that not all Russians can be bad people but the guy was having none of it.

Obviously alcohol doesn’t help but what is everyone’s thoughts?

It was pretty daft of your girlfriend to try and tell the people who’s countrymen have murdered and raped that the perpetrating country are not all bad.

Obviously their are good people in Russia who will be against the war but I wouldn’t want to try telling anyone from Ukraine that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Slightly off/on topic. In a bar in Dunfermline last night we started chatting to some Usyk fans who were Ukrainian (obviously). My girlfriend was quite drunk and suggested that not all Russians can be bad people but the guy was having none of it.

Obviously alcohol doesn’t help but what is everyone’s thoughts?

Obviously not all Russians are bad people but I wouldn't say possibly refugees who most probably have friends who have dies and have had sections of their country destroyed are objective. My grandad was a kind person but always had a distaste for the Japanese due to their treatment of Comrades. I thought it ridiculous but its easy for me to say

[Hibernian Verse]

Yeah I agree with both of you and tried to explain at the time.

[Jones28]

Yeah I agree with both of you and tried to explain at the time.

Who to? Your partner I presume?

What sort of response did you get?

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/rtenews/status/1800561940458057956?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Not every result in EU elections was bad. Delighted to see her rejected at the ballot box.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/maxseddon/status/1800657376980193581?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

More good news. Things do seem to be improving lately.[emoji1696]


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[Berwickhibby]

Rod Stewart boo’d in Germany for publicly supporting Ukraine for and President Zelenskyy at one of his concerts…wtf :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

Rod Stewart boo’d in Germany for publicly supporting Ukraine for publicly supporting Ukraine and President Zelenskyy at one of his concerts…wtf :confused:

Because he was in Leipzig Nazi Afd polled first there in the European elections. The map of Germany in the EU elections was an almost replica of the old east West, east voting Afd first with 30% of votes and them doing crap in the west.

Afd have much publicised links with Putin's regime. When Zelensky spoke at the Bundestag last week, the Afd and far left De Linke walked out before he could speak, the majority the centre parties gave him a standing ovation

[cabbageandribs1875]

Russian missiles hit a hospital treating kids in kyiv Visegrád 24 on X: "Ukrainian children suffering from cancer evacuated from their hospital in Kyiv after it was struck by a Russian missile today https://t.co/9tDSRaRYs7" / X (https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1810264405168234743)

Russia-Ukraine war live news: Missiles hit Ukraine cities, hospital struck | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/7/8/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-barrage-of-missiles-hits-ukrainian-cities)

[Stairway 2 7]

Russian missiles hit a hospital treating kids in kyiv Visegrád 24 on X: "Ukrainian children suffering from cancer evacuated from their hospital in Kyiv after it was struck by a Russian missile today https://t.co/9tDSRaRYs7" / X (https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1810264405168234743)

Russia-Ukraine war live news: Missiles hit Ukraine cities, hospital struck | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/7/8/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-barrage-of-missiles-hits-ukrainian-cities)

https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1810271944245219530

Second hospital hit. It's a tried and tested technique for the Russians. I'm sure the communist party of the UK the UK will be up the mound to protest on Saturday like they have been this summer, probably not as some genocides are OK. Special place in hell for Putin and Netanyahu

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/18/msf-will-not-share-syria-gps-locations-after-deliberate-attacks

MSF stops sharing Syria hospital locations after ‘deliberate’ attacks

Médecins Sans Frontières believes giving GPS coordinates of its facilities to Assad and Russian forces increases chance of direct targeting

[Lendo]

Are there no Patriot systems defending Kyiv?

[Stairway 2 7]

Are there no Patriot systems defending Kyiv?

1 but there was apparently 10 drones and 11 hypersonic missles fired at kyiv at once. 5 or 6 hit a target I think. Patriots can take down multiple missles but can be overwhelmed. Kyiv has been relatively safe because of the one but Russian obviously wanted a big statement before the NATO meetings tomorrow

Ukraine only has 4 for the whole nation it's just not enough. Holland, US and Romania have pledged another 3 to come later this year

Each Russian kinzah missle costs $10 million, so Russia just spent that to hit the equivalent of the great Ormand street hospital

[Jones28]

Why are we dicking about and not giving them the tools they need to defend themselves?

[Bristolhibby]

Why are we dicking about and not giving them the tools they need to defend themselves?

No idea.

J

[JimBHibees]

Why are we dicking about and not giving them the tools they need to defend themselves?

Absolutely complete joke

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1810271944245219530

Second hospital hit. It's a tried and tested technique for the Russians. I'm sure the communist party of the UK the UK will be up the mound to protest on Saturday like they have been this summer, probably not as some genocides are OK. Special place in hell for Putin and Netanyahu

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/18/msf-will-not-share-syria-gps-locations-after-deliberate-attacks

MSF stops sharing Syria hospital locations after ‘deliberate’ attacks

Médecins Sans Frontières believes giving GPS coordinates of its facilities to Assad and Russian forces increases chance of direct targeting

a court in Moscow has issued an arrest warrant for Yulia Navalnaya if she ever returns to Russia, i think the little worm is angry with her John Sweeney on X: "Russian court orders arrest of Yulia Navalnaya. Kafka whirrs in his grave. https://t.co/ZmdejHcMXL" / X (https://x.com/johnsweeneyroar/status/1810725367612854584)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GSDo24UXEAARMvV?format=png&name=4096x4096

[Stairway 2 7]

Putin's deputy Dmitry Medvedev today. For all the useful idiots saying ceasefire, that only works when both sides want peace. Prigozhin said the same before they blew up his plane, Russia doesn't care about NATO, this is about them taking what they think is theirs

"Even if Ukraine surrenders the territories we claim and renounces NATO aspirations in exchange for a peace deal, sooner or later we would still have to put the nail into the coffin of Ukrainian statehood and return the rest of the country’s lands “into the bosom of Russia, "The time will come to finally crush the reptile. Drive a long steel nail into the coffin of Bandera’s quasi-state.”

[Jones28]

Putin's deputy Dmitry Medvedev today. For all the useful idiots saying ceasefire, that only works when both sides want peace. Prigozhin said the same before they blew up his plane, Russia doesn't care about NATO, this is about them taking what they think is theirs

"Even if Ukraine surrenders the territories we claim and renounces NATO aspirations in exchange for a peace deal, sooner or later we would still have to put the nail into the coffin of Ukrainian statehood and return the rest of the country’s lands “into the bosom of Russia, "The time will come to finally crush the reptile. Drive a long steel nail into the coffin of Bandera’s quasi-state.”

That’s a perfectly normal thing to say.

[Hibs4185]

White House confirms F-16’s are on their way to Ukraine!

Hopefully makes a huge difference in the next few weeks!

[Kato]

That’s a perfectly normal thing to say.These days, seems so. He has supporters in every western country, usually the same people who hate brown people/women/gay people.

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[Bristolhibby]

White House confirms F-16’s are on their way to Ukraine!

Hopefully makes a huge difference in the next few weeks!

Are the pilots ready to fight them? The logistics ready to support them?

Wonder if they will fly from Ukraine? If so these airfields will need protection.

£100 drone could total a multimillion F-16.

No point having aircraft without trained and ready pilots. No capability unless so.

[Bristolhibby]

That’s a perfectly normal thing to say.

And why we MUST help Ukraine to continue to fight, and win.

Scandalous it’s taken this long. Shows how ***** our supply chains are. We should have factories working on shifts to make shells and get them straight to the front.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Are the pilots ready to fight them? The logistics ready to support them?

Wonder if they will fly from Ukraine? If so these airfields will need protection.

£100 drone could total a multimillion F-16.

No point having aircraft without trained and ready pilots. No capability unless so.

All of that is the reason it’s taken so long. Russia already trying to increase attacks on airbases in preparation.
A lot of preperation by the Ukrainians and their NATO partners has went into this.


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[Bristolhibby]

All of that is the reason it’s taken so long. Russia already trying to increase attacks on airbases in preparation.
A lot of preperation by the Ukrainians and their NATO partners has went into this.


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Good luck to them. Let’s hope they can start to clear the airspace. F-16 are very capable aircraft.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Good luck to them. Let’s hope they can start to clear the airspace. F-16 are very capable aircraft.

J

Ukraine have been very focussed on taking out Russian radar systems for months now to protect the f16’s when they are deployed.
It’s thought that is why they have not hit Kerch bridge. They have been using it as bait. Every time they attack it the Russians give away the position of their radar systems and the Ukrainians take them out. And it’s so important that the Russians have to keep bringing in more systems to protect it.


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[Lendo]

Ukraine have been very focussed on taking out Russian radar systems for months now to protect the f16’s when they are deployed.
It’s thought that is why they have not hit Kerch bridge. They have been using it as bait. Every time they attack it the Russians give away the position of their radar systems and the Ukrainians take them out. And it’s so important that the Russians have to keep bringing in more systems to protect it.


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There was a brand new S500 system hit in Crimea a couple of weeks back. That’s a huge scalp to take. The Russians have very few of these in service. The irony of it being taken out by HIMAR and ATACMS, the two things is specifically designs to counter is lovely.

[Ozyhibby]

There was a brand new S500 system hit in Crimea a couple of weeks back. That’s a huge scalp to take. The Russians have very few of these in service. The irony of it being taken out by HIMAR and ATACMS, the two things is specifically designs to counter is lovely.

Russia will have no choice but to move another system in to replace it because they must protect the bridge. Ukraine will be looking for it already. They only have so many of these things though and that should make it easier for the f16’s to operate.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

China taking part in joint military exercises in Belarus near to Poland
China, Belarus start joint military drills near Polish border | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/china-belarus-start-joint-military-drills-near-polish-border-2024-07-09/)

the Chinese will have been paying very close attention to events in Ukraine :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

China taking part in joint military exercises in Belarus near to Poland
China, Belarus start joint military drills near Polish border | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/china-belarus-start-joint-military-drills-near-polish-border-2024-07-09/)

the Chinese will have been paying very close attention to events in Ukraine :agree:

China will be the first to take back Russian land it claims if Russia get involved in a war with the West. The Chinese will have their own agenda.

[StevieC]

With Trump now looking like a stick-on, I’m really worried about the future of Ukraine 😞

There will be Russian money winging its way to the Trump coffers, if it hasn’t already been 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

With Trump now looking like a stick-on, I’m really worried about the future of Ukraine [emoji20]

There will be Russian money winging its way to the Trump coffers, if it hasn’t already been [emoji849]

I don’t think Trump wins but also Europe will step up. Russian economy is no match for Europe.


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[judas]

I don’t think Trump wins but also Europe will step up. Russian economy is no match for Europe.


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You don’t think Trump will win. Am I picking that up correctly?

[Ozyhibby]

You don’t think Trump will win. Am I picking that up correctly?

Yes, I don’t think Trump will win. Hope Biden stands down but still don’t think Trump wins.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Yes, I don’t think Trump will win. Hope Biden stands down but still don’t think Trump wins.


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Why?

[judas]

Yes, I don’t think Trump will win. Hope Biden stands down but still don’t think Trump wins.


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Your wish has been granted. Biden has stepped down.

But it’s a big call Oz based on current data. I certainly hope you are right.

[AgentDaleCooper]

IMO there's only one person that they could nominate as VP who would make a difference and that's Bernie Sanders. Harris won't be able to win if it's just her and another vanilla centrist.

[Stairway 2 7]

IMO there's only one person that they could nominate as VP who would make a difference and that's Bernie Sanders. Harris won't be able to win if it's just her and another vanilla centrist.

America is literally just about winning the centre is about 10 states. Anyone bernie wins is already won. That's why I think Vance is a poor pic, preaching to the converted. The Liberal vote is one and they despise Trump anyway, the right wing is baked in also. The election is all about swing voters in the swing states.

[Ozyhibby]

IMO there's only one person that they could nominate as VP who would make a difference and that's Bernie Sanders. Harris won't be able to win if it's just her and another vanilla centrist.

That’s the opposite of what she should and will do. She will appoint a white male governor, likely from a swing state. Maybe with some strong foreign policy chops.
She needs to get to the voters Clinton could not get to in 2016.
She has left wing voters already sewn up. It’s swing voters she needs in very specific states. Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin etc.
She won’t go for Whitmer in Michigan because they won’t want an all female ticket.


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[JimBHibees]

That’s the opposite of what she should and will do. She will appoint a white male governor, likely from a swing state. Maybe with some strong foreign policy chops.
She needs to get to the voters Clinton could not get to in 2016.
She has left wing voters already sewn up. It’s swing voters she needs in very specific states. Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin etc.
She won’t go for Whitmer in Michigan because they won’t want an all female ticket.


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Agree with all of that it will be a white man popular in an area that will decide the election. No sense to do otherwise

[AgentDaleCooper]

That’s the opposite of what she should and will do. She will appoint a white male governor, likely from a swing state. Maybe with some strong foreign policy chops.
She needs to get to the voters Clinton could not get to in 2016.
She has left wing voters already sewn up. It’s swing voters she needs in very specific states. Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin etc.
She won’t go for Whitmer in Michigan because they won’t want an all female ticket.


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there's a huge amount of people who have moved towards trump that would certainly look twice if Sanders was on the ticket (including the African-American vote that has drifted towards Trump). Trump has been appealing to working class interests, he even had a teamster speak at the convention (to a silently unenthused audience). Sanders is white and male, and would provide something of what we saw in France - something for the left to galvanize around, bringing in working class people who have drifted towards the right. I sort of wonder if this is partly why the left bloc of the party didn't turn on Biden - they'll have some good favour with Harris.

the centre, or whatever a liberal idea of a 'sensible voter' is, is what is sewn up IMO. I can't see how someone would have centrist views, but move towards Trump because they think he'd a safer option, even if Biden was coming apart at the seams - if he had been no longer able to do the job, they'd know they were getting Harris - who is who they know actually have. The problem is that if they pick Harris and another vanilla Democrat, it'll just push the whole 'establishment insiders' narrative, which is what Trump thrives on. If there isn't some sort of activation of the left, in some sort of way palatable to enough Americans, i think Trump is a shoe in. I think it's what'll happen here if Starmer ever has to go head on against Farage - unless he works seriously hard at winning back working class voters via their economic interests (and by 'seriously hard', i mean harder than he works at fulfilling promises made to donors), we're goosed.

[s.a.m]

IMO there's only one person that they could nominate as VP who would make a difference and that's Bernie Sanders. Harris won't be able to win if it's just her and another vanilla centrist.Bernie Sanders is 82.

[Stairway 2 7]

there's a huge amount of people who have moved towards trump that would certainly look twice if Sanders was on the ticket (including the African-American vote that has drifted towards Trump). Trump has been appealing to working class interests, he even had a teamster speak at the convention (to a silently unenthused audience). Sanders is white and male, and would provide something of what we saw in France - something for the left to galvanize around, bringing in working class people who have drifted towards the right. I sort of wonder if this is partly why the left bloc of the party didn't turn on Biden - they'll have some good favour with Harris.

the centre, or whatever a liberal idea of a 'sensible voter' is, is what is sewn up IMO. I can't see how someone would have centrist views, but move towards Trump because they think he'd a safer option, even if Biden was coming apart at the seams - if he had been no longer able to do the job, they'd know they were getting Harris - who is who they know actually have. The problem is that if they pick Harris and another vanilla Democrat, it'll just push the whole 'establishment insiders' narrative, which is what Trump thrives on. If there isn't some sort of activation of the left, in some sort of way palatable to enough Americans, i think Trump is a shoe in. I think it's what'll happen here if Starmer ever has to go head on against Farage - unless he works seriously hard at winning back working class voters via their economic interests (and by 'seriously hard', i mean harder than he works at fulfilling promises made to donors), we're goosed.

Sanders he's them maybe some votes in California and New York which are no use. Georgia, Nevada and Arizona are the ones that need won. The working classes in these states of all colours surprisingly are going to Trump because he's tough on immigration. Sanders would get hammered in the swing states.

You said similar before the election that SNP shouldn't abandon the left and get Forbes. It turned out 16% of SNP voters last time chose Starmer’s Labour to the right. The left was pretty solid but when the middle switches to the other side your done

[AgentDaleCooper]

Sanders he's them maybe some votes in California and New York which are no use. Georgia, Nevada and Arizona are the ones that need won. The working classes in these states of all colours surprisingly are going to Trump because he's tough on immigration. Sanders would get hammered in the swing states.

You said similar before the election that SNP shouldn't abandon the left and get Forbes. It turned out 16% of SNP voters last time chose Starmer’s Labour to the right. The left was pretty solid but when the middle switches to the other side your done

Did Hillary Clinton lose in 2016 because she lost the centre to Trump?

[Ozyhibby]

Did Hillary Clinton lose in 2016 because she lost the centre to Trump?

Yes. She lost male swing voters in swing states.
She won the popular vote but lost the electoral college.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Yes. She lost male swing voters in swing states.
She won the popular vote but lost the electoral college.


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is that the beginning and end of how Hillary lost to Trump in 2016?

is populism on the rise because there hasn't been enough voter triangulation?

the only reason immigration is on the table for debate is because no-one will actually defend the economic interests of the squeezed-middle and working classes.

the other problem with this approach is that it's expensive, requires huge amounts of resources, which in turn means that it requires huge amounts of donations. these aren't 'free' - they will be contingent on the fulfilment of promises, and these promises will be against the interests of the people Labour/the Dems purport to represent. Everyone knows this, they're fed up of it, and the centre doesn't really seem to have an answer or than 'keep doing what we do, but harder'. Short term - maybe it pays off. Long term - unless the centre gives up its 'sensible adult in the room' schtick and actually starts looking after people, then its role as gateway to fascism will most likely be fulfilled. again.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240724/247ca147243d3c9f185aa6bfe8d9bd12.jpg

They really should do something about window safety standards in Russia.


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[JimBHibees]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240724/247ca147243d3c9f185aa6bfe8d9bd12.jpg

They really should do something about window safety standards in Russia.


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Yes seems to be a common fault in people falling out of them

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1816795783011733670?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Been a few of these arrests the last few days. Putin must be becoming more and more paranoid as these guys are seen as insiders.


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[Bridge hibs]

Missed the clip but Im sure I caught the end of a report about American Jets having to escort some Chinese and Russian jets who were flying over Alaska

Not sure of the full story

[Moulin Yarns]

Missed the clip but Im sure I caught the end of a report about American Jets having to escort some Chinese and Russian jets who were flying over Alaska

Not sure of the full story

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/russia-china-war-planes-alaska-b2585727.html

[Bristolhibby]

Missed the clip but Im sure I caught the end of a report about American Jets having to escort some Chinese and Russian jets who were flying over Alaska

Not sure of the full story

Just to be clear, we do exactly the same to the Russians with our aircraft, ships and Submarines.

My old man served at sea and some outrageous stuff done while snooping on them. Cat and mouse. Been going on since 1945.

J

[Lendo]

Ukraine claiming to have hit some supersonic bomber aircraft at at airfield 1,800km inside of Russia, closer to the Finnish border than Ukraine https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/07/27/media-ukrainian-drones-strike-russian-tu-22m3-bomber-1800-km-from-front/

[Hibs4185]

Big Myko to score 20 goals for the hibees and Putin to get destroyed with F-16’s etc

[judas]

Hostage release shows why beating Russia may not be possible under current Western regimes.

Russia is more ruthless. Imagine releasing a Russian assassin.operating and killing on the soil of a Western Democracy..

Another victory for Putin.

Said it a few times over this excellent thread, but those who think Russia will lose this war are wildly optimistic.

[Ozyhibby]

Hostage release shows why beating Russia may not be possible under current Western regimes.

Russia is more ruthless. Imagine releasing a Russian assassin.operating and killing on the soil of a Western Democracy..

Another victory for Putin.

Said it a few times over this excellent thread, but those who think Russia will lose this war are wildly optimistic.

How will Russia win this war?


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[Stairway 2 7]

How will Russia win this war?


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They have clearly lost and I'm sure will never take Ukraine, which was fantasy 2 years ago.

They had 1970s equipment and almost no air defenses or navy. Russia was supposedly the second biggest army in the world. They sent their full army/air/navy to take Ukraine hundreds of thousands of men, thousands of tanks planes and war ships. They also had surprise so used hypersonic missles to hit Ukraines air defense and small airforce.

I'd have put my house on them winning within a week. It was amazing that Ukraine was able to hold off the attack. To then push Russia from Kyiv take back a huge amount of Kharkiv and then take back Kherson the biggest city Russia conquered is amazing.

Russia has all but given up on taking Ukraine and is settling with taking more of the Donbas. During the first nights of the invasion most Ukrainians would have reluctantly accepted the outcome that played out, not one Russian would have accepted the failure.

Ukraine now has patriots that mean no Russian jets will fly over Ukraine, weapons that mean no Russian warships can dock in crimea let alone land in Odesa. They will soon have f16s and a more modern army that means Kyiv is a relatively safe place.

The cost has been Ukrainian lives and infrastructure but they will have help with the later. They also have security agreements and will join the EU. Russia has lost 400k men, most of its Soviet military build up and will be seen as a terrorist state in the west at least until Putin goes. An absolutely disastrous decision by Russia

[Ozyhibby]

They have clearly lost and I'm sure will never take Ukraine, which was fantasy 2 years ago.

They had 1970s equipment and almost no air defenses or navy. Russia was supposedly the second biggest army in the world. They sent their full army/air/navy to take Ukraine hundreds of thousands of men, thousands of tanks planes and war ships. They also had surprise so used hypersonic missles to hit Ukraines air defense and small airforce.

I'd have put my house on them winning within a week. It was amazing that Ukraine was able to hold off the attack. To then push Russia from Kyiv take back a huge amount of Kharkiv and then take back Kherson the biggest city Russia conquered is amazing.

Russia has all but given up on taking Ukraine and is settling with taking more of the Donbas. During the first nights of the invasion most Ukrainians would have reluctantly accepted the outcome that played out, not one Russian would have accepted the failure.

Ukraine now has patriots that mean no Russian jets will fly over Ukraine, weapons that mean no Russian warships can dock in crimea let alone land in Odesa. They will soon have f16s and a more modern army that means Kyiv is a relatively safe place.

The cost has been Ukrainian lives and infrastructure but they will have help with the later. They also have security agreements and will join the EU. Russia has lost 400k men, most of its Soviet military build up and will be seen as a terrorist state in the west at least until Putin goes. An absolutely disastrous decision by Russia

And the situation for Russia is deteriorating every day. Their economy can’t support the level of spending required to keep the war going while the west can do this for a very long time without really noticing. And Russia can’t just carry on as it is either. Crimea is unsustainable now. There is no fresh water supply. The bridge is being closed for hours every day and all the ferries bringing supplies in have been sunk. At some point soon Russia will need a game changer or they will have to give up Crimea.


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[judas]

How will Russia win this war?


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Through its continuation of the war, eventually arriving at a negotiated settlement that will see it leave the table with more territory than it had before 2014 (and/or 2022).

A pyrrhic victory, most certainly. But one that will extend Russian territory and allow Putin to sell it as a success.

The Russian Federation appears to be far more homogenous in its approach that the divided and - by design - changeable West.

[Ozyhibby]

Through its continuation of the war, eventually arriving at a negotiated settlement that will see it leave the table with more territory than it had before 2014 (and/or 2022).

A pyrrhic victory, most certainly. But one that will extend Russian territory and allow Putin to sell it as a success.

The Russian Federation appears to be far more homogenous in its approach that the divided and - by design - changeable West.

And why would Ukraine accept this? Where is the pressure on Ukraine to accept this?
Authoritarian state very rarely defeat democracies. It’s almost unheard of. And it won’t happen here.


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[judas]

And why would Ukraine accept this? Where is the pressure on Ukraine to accept this?
Authoritarian state very rarely defeat democracies. It’s almost unheard of. And it won’t happen here.


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Ukraine may have to negotiate if Western support is withdrawn or diminished.

I’m thinking about Trump, Orban, Turkey and the rise of the far right in Europe.

Long term support for Ukraine cannot be guaranteed. Democracies have their weak spots too.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ukraine may have to negotiate if Western support is withdrawn or diminished.

I’m thinking about Trump, Orban, Turkey and the rise of the far right in Europe.

Long term support for Ukraine cannot be guaranteed. Democracies have their weak spots too.

EU just agreed to provide Ukraine with another £30 billion next year. Germany has said it will continue for the next 3 years minimum and has agreed that Rheinmetal can set up factories inside Ukraine, UK and most of Europe will do the same.

Ukraine had almost no aid from the US for around 6 months this year. The one thing Trump has achieved is get Europe to wake up and expand its military capabilities and self sufficiency. I think Trump will lose though. Orban is insignificant and Turkey doesn't send much but what they do is towards Ukraine

[Ozyhibby]

EU just agreed to provide Ukraine with another £30 billion next year. Germany has said it will continue for the next 3 years minimum and has agreed that Rheinmetal can set up factories inside Ukraine, UK and most of Europe will do the same.

Ukraine had almost no aid from the US for around 6 months this year. The one thing Trump has achieved is get Europe to wake up and expand its military capabilities and self sufficiency. I think Trump will lose though. Orban is insignificant and Turkey doesn't send much but what they do is towards Ukraine

Turkey played a very important role early on by making it clear that no civilian shipping should be attacked in the Black Sea. Putin knows not to mess with them.


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[judas]

EU just agreed to provide Ukraine with another £30 billion next year. Germany has said it will continue for the next 3 years minimum and has agreed that Rheinmetal can set up factories inside Ukraine, UK and most of Europe will do the same.

Ukraine had almost no aid from the US for around 6 months this year. The one thing Trump has achieved is get Europe to wake up and expand its military capabilities and self sufficiency. I think Trump will lose though. Orban is insignificant and Turkey doesn't send much but what they do is towards Ukraine

I think Trumps rattling of NATO members was very business like most likely designed to line US coffers with arms contracts, and yes it will strengthen European states militarily.

I don’t agree that Orban or Hungary as a buffer country and restless EU member is insignificant. Hungary never has been insignificant in previous European conflicts.

Having a war next door does not suit Turkey at all.

This and the continued Chinese support for Russia in particular will act as a pressure on Ukraine to strike a deal of some kind.

Russia is not leaving Ukraine with nothing.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Trumps rattling of NATO members was very business like most likely designed to line US coffers with arms contracts, and yes it will strengthen European states militarily.

I don’t agree that Orban or Hungary as a buffer country and restless EU member is insignificant. Hungary never has been insignificant in previous European conflicts.

Having a war next door does not suit Turkey at all.

This and the continued Chinese support for Russia in particular will act as a pressure on Ukraine to strike a deal of some kind.

Russia is not leaving Ukraine with nothing.

The last sentence assumes a choice. Armies and societies can collapse without much notice at all.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think Trumps rattling of NATO members was very business like most likely designed to line US coffers with arms contracts, and yes it will strengthen European states militarily.

I don’t agree that Orban or Hungary as a buffer country and restless EU member is insignificant. Hungary never has been insignificant in previous European conflicts.

Having a war next door does not suit Turkey at all.

This and the continued Chinese support for Russia in particular will act as a pressure on Ukraine to strike a deal of some kind.

Russia is not leaving Ukraine with nothing.

Orban does the same thing every time. Says he's refusing to help, gets a bung, then approves the aid. They don't want to be out of the EU so they tow the line after a pay off. Turkey has had wars on its land borders for decades some they instigate like against the kurds and Assad/Russia.

Russia will leave it failing to take Ukraine. It's nothing but a humiliation for a nation that liked to pretend it had a top tier military. It will get a few new flattened towns.

The price half a million men, European nations cutting off buying oil and gas from Russia, a massive drive towards green energy in Europe, Ukraine in the EU with security agreements and modern military, Sweden and Finland in NATO, used up most of its Soviet stocks, half of its black sea navy destroyed including a submarine today, a pariah state to the western nations.

It's possibly the worst military decision of the last 50 years. A financial and political disaster that will effect Russia for decades

[judas]

The last sentence assumes a choice. Armies and societies can collapse without much notice at all.


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That is true Oz.

My original point though is that the bonds of Western Alliance are also fragile and unpredictable.

[judas]

Russia will leave it failing to take Ukraine. It's nothing but a humiliation for a nation that liked to pretend it had a top tier military. It will get a few new flattened towns.


To be clear, I’m not saying Russia will take Ukraine. I’m saying it will leave this war with more Ukrainian territory than it had before 2014 and probably 2022.

I am also unconvinced that Russia was ever serious about taking Kiev. The dogs on the street know how fervently anti Russian Western Ukraine is.

Even in Putins pre war rambling essay, he said he felt no one should have taken more from Russia than it went in with. For me that was a clear reference to Crimea.

[Stairway 2 7]

To be clear, I’m not saying Russia will take Ukraine. I’m saying it will leave this war with more Ukrainian territory than it had before 2014 and probably 2022.

I am also unconvinced that Russia was ever serious about taking Kiev. The dogs on the street know how fervently anti Russian Western Ukraine is.

Even in Putins pre war rambling essay, he said he felt no one should have taken more from Russia than it went in with. For me that was a clear reference to Crimea.

I've heard a few people say that they didn't want kyiv it's radge, where's a shred of evidence towards that other than Russian channels.

There was plans taken from the invaders showing the 10 day plan to take Ukraine. Putin has said Ukraine is Russia and rambled on about it for hours to Tucker Carlson. They were very close to taking kyiv. They used their best special forces are paras to take Hostomel Airport and it was amazing that Ukraine managed to fight them off.

It's a failure undoubtedly. A few towns and cities and the biggest city they took Kherson Ukrainian again. A country that relies on gas and oil sales not only losing its biggest market but also getting them to become independent of Russian and push green energy. A country facing a demographic time bomb pre war losing 500k young men and having another 900k young people estimated to have emigrated, it's mad Russians haven't tried everything to stop the madness

[Hibrandenburg]

I've heard a few people say that they didn't want kyiv it's radge, where's a shred of evidence towards that other than Russian channels.

There was plans taken from the invaders showing the 10 day plan to take Ukraine. Putin has said Ukraine is Russia and rambled on about it for hours to Tucker Carlson. They were very close to taking kyiv. They used their best special forces are paras to take Hostomel Airport and it was amazing that Ukraine managed to fight them off.

It's a failure undoubtedly. A few towns and cities and the biggest city they took Kherson Ukrainian again. A country that relies on gas and oil sales not only losing its biggest market but also getting them to become independent of Russian and push green energy. A country facing a demographic time bomb pre war losing 500k young men and having another 900k young people estimated to have emigrated, it's mad Russians haven't tried everything to stop the madness

:agree: Russia put it's best troops into trying to capture Kyiv, if they'd managed to hold on to the airport it would have been used as a bridgehead to crush the capital. They failed miserably due to their own arrogance and an incredible counter attack by the Ukrainians. Not many including me saw that coming and it was the first turning point on the conflict.

[Ozyhibby]

The first 7 days of the war were crucial. I expected Kyiv to fall and I think if Russian troops and war planners were as good as they should have been it probably would have. The failure to take Hostomel airport on day one probably cost the Russians the whole war.
This war is bankrupting Russia. It’s a process that happens slowly but then very quickly.


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[Kato]

This war is bankrupting Russia. It’s a process that happens slowly but then very quickly.


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Look at the end of their attempt at communism.


If food disappears from the shops and wages stopped being paid putin will make a dash for it or someone will take a dash at him.

Russia is notoriously disorganised once a leadership becomes ossified.At the end of the tsars and at the end of the soviets, the state was spending huge amounts. Much of it frittered away on penpushers, brownosers, or on obscure projects, or squirreled away < these days some to the uks Island protectorates.

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[StevieC]

They have clearly lost and I'm sure will never take Ukraine.

I'd have put my house on them winning within a week. It was amazing that Ukraine was able to hold off the attack. To then push Russia from Kyiv take back a huge amount of Kharkiv and then take back Kherson the biggest city Russia conquered is amazing.

Russia has all but given up on taking Ukraine and is settling with taking more of the Donbas. During the first nights of the invasion most Ukrainians would have reluctantly accepted the outcome that played out, not one Russian would have accepted the failure.

I’ve viewed it slightly differently.

I don’t think Ukraine pushed Russia out of Kyiv, I think Russia withdrew to strengthen the south when they ran into difficulties with a stiff Ukrainian defence and stretched supply lines. They could have done the opposite and strengthened the north to take Kyiv, but IMO the objective was always the land bridge to Crimea (which was clear in the days before the invasion when it was passed in the Russian State Duma to include Luhansk and Donetsk into the Russian Federation).

At the moment, Russia could still view the war as a success, because not only have they recognised Luhansk and Donetsk as no longer Ukrainian, but they have also included Kherson and Zaporizhia regions as separate from Ukraine via passed acts in the Russian State Duma.

If Trump gets in and forces Ukraine to accept the loss of these regions as part of a “forced” peace plan then Russia will view it as a victory, sit tight for a few years, build up the army and then push for Odessa and subsequently Transnistra.

I think the Baltic states should be worried as well if Russia is allowed to keep the annexed regions as part of any peace plan.

[StevieC]

I've heard a few people say that they didn't want kyiv it's radge, where's a shred of evidence towards that other than Russian channels.

They definitely wanted Kyiv. Russian propaganda is as much a part of their strategy as men on the ground, and taking Kyiv would have given them the opportunity to take over TV and radio channels and effectively tell the Ukrainian people whatever they wanted. If you look at what happened in Donetsk and Luhansk, where there was very little internal resistance to the occupation, it is a clear Russian strategy.

[Ozyhibby]

Lots of (unsubstantiated) reports online that Ukraine are about to take control of a nuclear power plant in Kursk region of Russia. Would be a major embarrassment for Putin.


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[judas]

Lots of (unsubstantiated) reports online that Ukraine are about to take control of a nuclear power plant in Kursk region of Russia. Would be a major embarrassment for Putin.


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Huge if true.

The problem would be holding on to the plant once seized.

It would be interesting to see how Russia would go about taking it back and what that would tell us about the Zaporizhzhia plant.

Both countries would potentially be holding a weapon of mass destruction. Ukraine for the first time.

[Ozyhibby]

Huge if true.

The problem would be holding on to the plant once seized.

It would be interesting to see how Russia would go about taking it back and what that would tell us about the Zaporizhzhia plant.

Both countries would potentially be holding a weapon of mass destruction. Ukraine for the first time.

They are still a good bit away from the power plant and I suspect it’s not the target. More likely they are trying to cut the railway lines south to restrict Russian logistics.


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[Lendo]

They are still a good bit away from the power plant and I suspect it’s not the target. More likely they are trying to cut the railway lines south to restrict Russian logistics.


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The mere threat or potential for capturing it might be enough though to make Russia redeploy forces from other fronts to the area. Could give Ukraine the opportunity to make breakthroughs elsewhere.

[Ozyhibby]

The mere threat or potential for capturing it might be enough though to make Russia redeploy forces from other fronts to the area. Could give Ukraine the opportunity to make breakthroughs elsewhere.

Yip. There are a good few theories going about just now and the Ukrainians are keeping very quiet about it.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/defmon3/status/1821803336657494201?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Russians tried to send reinforcements to Kursk and the Ukrainians saw them coming.[emoji51]


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[Hibrandenburg]

The mere threat or potential for capturing it might be enough though to make Russia redeploy forces from other fronts to the area. Could give Ukraine the opportunity to make breakthroughs elsewhere.

Might also work wonders for Russian recruitment.

[Jones28]

https://x.com/defmon3/status/1821803336657494201?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Russians tried to send reinforcements to Kursk and the Ukrainians saw them coming.[emoji51]

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HIMARS strike apparently. The missiles contain 17,000 tungsten ball bearings each. It’s against Russia which I’m all for but the brutality of these weapons is awful to behold.

It’s like the Thermobaric MLRS, a piece of engineering designed to kill in the most awful way. They dispense a fuel source and ignite it, used in enclosed spaces it can suck the oxygen out of lungs and people die from the internal bleeding, not to mention the people caught in the fireball.

[Stairway 2 7]

HIMARS strike apparently. The missiles contain 17,000 tungsten ball bearings each. It’s against Russia which I’m all for but the brutality of these weapons is awful to behold.

It’s like the Thermobaric MLRS, a piece of engineering designed to kill in the most awful way. They dispense a fuel source and ignite it, used in enclosed spaces it can suck the oxygen out of lungs and people die from the internal bleeding, not to mention the people caught in the fireball.

HIMARS is humane if killing machines can be in that your dead instantly. Unfortunately previously Ukraine could use them or other US weapons cross border. I saw a general saying he'd heard Biden is letting loose more to what he wanted, now that he isn't thinking about reelection.

[Lendo]

Might also work wonders for Russian recruitment.

Using Western vehicles like Bradley’s and Strykers (which is the case apparently) could be a huge PR win for Russia showing these “NATO” weapon on Russian soil.

[Ozyhibby]

Using Western vehicles like Bradley’s and Strykers (which is the case apparently) could be a huge PR win for Russia showing these “NATO” weapon on Russian soil.

Getting invaded is rarely good for an autocrats PR.


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[Bridge hibs]

Using Western vehicles like Bradley’s and Strykers (which is the case apparently) could be a huge PR win for Russia showing these “NATO” weapon on Russian soil.

Yeah, I always thought the NATO plan was not to use their equipment on Russian soil because of reprise. This in my opinion plays into Putins hands for retaliation. I get Ukraine defending their land which is their right but crossing the border surely is poking the bear ?

Ukraine have been pleading for more weapons etc to help defend their country but they are now taking the war to Russia on Russian soil, a massive country in comparison, I cant understand this plan.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I always thought the NATO plan was not to use their equipment on Russian soil because of reprise. This in my opinion plays into Putins hands for retaliation. I get Ukraine defending their land which is their right but crossing the border surely is poking the bear ?

Ukraine have been pleading for more weapons etc to help defend their country but they are now taking the war to Russia on Russian soil, a massive country in comparison, I cant understand this plan.

NATO have given full permission for weapons supplied to be used how the Ukrainians see fit in defending themselves.
How does it play into Putin’s hand for retaliation? What’s he going to do? Invade Ukraine?[emoji2369]


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[Bridge hibs]

NATO have given full permission for weapons supplied to be used how the Ukrainians see fit in defending themselves.
How does it play into Putin’s hand for retaliation? What’s he going to do? Invade Ukraine?[emoji2369]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNATO were always reluctant to supply jets in case a missile crossed the border, whats changed ? Why dont NATO now supply a few hundred jets and let Ukraine obliterate Russia ? After all, whats Putin going to do.

[Ozyhibby]

NATO were always reluctant to supply jets in case a missile crossed the border, whats changed ? Why dont NATO now supply a few hundred jets and let Ukraine obliterate Russia ? After all, whats Putin going to do.

It’s never been anyone’s goal to obliterate Russia?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Using Western vehicles like Bradley’s and Strykers (which is the case apparently) could be a huge PR win for Russia showing these “NATO” weapon on Russian soil.

Yeah I'm sure NATO weapons on Russian soil will have them rushing to join the meat grinder. Putin tried to link the war to NATO from day 1 and NATO weapons have killed hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers starting on day 1 also. Even with this an estimated 900k young Russians have emigrated since the war started.

What it does show is the don't escalate group talk mince, Ukraine has crossed about 50 red lines and nothing. Sent tanks, jets, let atacs hit Russia, let NATO equipment in Russia. Every time some say what about retaliation, what is he going to do bomb hospitals again, their whole army is in Ukraine already.

Some put up great articles on how Russia's command are set up like their prison hierarchy. They don't respond well to cowards and peacemakers they call them cuckolds and hit them harder. Imagine telling the UK we can't hit Germany during ww2

[Bridge hibs]

It’s never been anyone’s goal to obliterate Russia?


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But surely it would end Putin ?

[Ozyhibby]

But surely it would end Putin ?

The Russians will deal with Putin soon enough. The goal is to get him to leave Ukraine not destroy Russia.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I saw a screenshot and thought it was a parody but no Corbyn and Co's stop the war coalition are hitting out at Ukraine for fighting back in a war. They don't comment when Russia blew up a children's hospital this year but do now, the Ruble's are clearly still flowing

Stop the War
@STWuk
Ukraine's escalation is terrifying.

STOP THE WAR

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/schizointel/status/1823004142492631340?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A not insignificant benefit of taking the rail junction at Sudzha.


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[500miles]

Ukraine didn't have anything to negotiate with in peace talks. They could have a nuclear power station soon.

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[Bristolhibby]

Ukraine didn't have anything to negotiate with in peace talks. They could have a nuclear power station soon.

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We give you Kursk, you give us Mariupol, and Kherson and Zhapirizia.

J

[Jones28]

https://realcontextnews.com/kursk-belgorod-operation-ukraines-transformational-ace-up-its-sleeve/

Really interesting article here on the ramifications of Ukraine taking Russian territory.

Also interesting is that the rail systems are so automated now that Russia can't really shut the systems that Ukrainian troops have taken down, because they're all radio transmitted instructions. So unless Russia goes and physically removes the systems Ukraine can see every train movement. Russia is highly dependent on rail networks for moving men and supplies, so a drone strike in the right place could be devastating for Russian troops on the frontline.

Russia will now have the dissect some of their frontline to retreat back to Russia to force the Ukranian troops out, opening up gaps and probably resulting in breakthroughs for Ukraine.

It also mentions (TLDR) that Russian forces are potentially on the cusp of defection.

[Keith_M]

"Germany’s chief prosecutor has issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian man suspected of blowing up the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea nearly two years ago."

https://www.ft.com/content/b427976c-f059-466c-9c85-65bdeb45c755


Suspicion for a while is that this was organised by a Ukranian military unit.

Not looking good regards German/Ukraine relations.

[JimBHibees]

"Germany’s chief prosecutor has issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian man suspected of blowing up the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea nearly two years ago."

https://www.ft.com/content/b427976c-f059-466c-9c85-65bdeb45c755


Suspicion for a while is that this was organised by a Ukranian military unit.

Not looking good regards German/Ukraine relations.

Why would they do that? to blame Russia for it?

[Stairway 2 7]

"Germany’s chief prosecutor has issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian man suspected of blowing up the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea nearly two years ago."

https://www.ft.com/content/b427976c-f059-466c-9c85-65bdeb45c755


Suspicion for a while is that this was organised by a Ukranian military unit.

Not looking good regards German/Ukraine relations.

I don't think it's done anything to relations, even in the article the spokesman says it doesn't change anything. The sent out the warrant in June but just last week Germany was one of the first nations to come out and say Ukraine can use any German equipment and weapons inside Russia for its Kursk assault

[Stairway 2 7]

Why would they do that? to blame Russia for it?

To stop one of Russias biggest revenue streams coming in. The energy money is the main driver for the invasion. Both sides have been bombing each other's oil and gas facilities, cutting off the money slows the war industry. UK targeted the north Rhein to slow Germany's industrial power in ww2

[JimBHibees]

To stop one of Russias biggest revenue streams coming in. The energy money is the main driver for the invasion. Both sides have been bombing each other's oil and gas facilities, cutting off the money slows the war industry. UK targeted the north Rhein to slow Germany's industrial power in ww2

Fair enough did the news at that time not suggest it was russia had done this though suppose the first thing to go in a war is the truth

[Stairway 2 7]

Fair enough did the news at that time not suggest it was russia had done this though suppose the first thing to go in a war is the truth

I've never seen anything that says they knew who done it just lots of theories, it's all very James Bond. Glad it happened whoever did it though, less money to bomb hospitals

[Lendo]

"Germany’s chief prosecutor has issued an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian man suspected of blowing up the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea nearly two years ago."

https://www.ft.com/content/b427976c-f059-466c-9c85-65bdeb45c755


Suspicion for a while is that this was organised by a Ukranian military unit.

Not looking good regards German/Ukraine relations.

This feels like it would be quite some undertaking for one man. Surely more people involved.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think it's done anything to relations, even in the article the spokesman says it doesn't change anything. The sent out the warrant in June but just last week Germany was one of the first nations to come out and say Ukraine can use any German equipment and weapons inside Russia for its Kursk assault

Germany announce a huge military package

30 Leopard-1 tanks, 400 MRAP armored vehicles, 4 IRIS-T anti-aircraft systems, and 10 Gepard SAMs, 50k shells

[Keith_M]

To stop one of Russias biggest revenue streams coming in. The energy money is the main driver for the invasion. Both sides have been bombing each other's oil and gas facilities, cutting off the money slows the war industry. UK targeted the north Rhein to slow Germany's industrial power in ww2

As far as I'm aware, Ukraine is not at war with Germany, so hardly the same thing.



This feels like it would be quite some undertaking for one man. Surely more people involved.

He's the only one identified so far and is suspected to be part of an undercover Ukrainian military unit.

[Stairway 2 7]

As far as I'm aware, Ukraine is not at war with Germany, so hardly the same thing.




It is the same thing. When your nation has a real chance of being conquered as UK and Germany was you do whatever you can to stop the funds of your aggressor. UK bombed Dutch bridges and dams and oil refineries in France, they would definitely cut off Nord Stream.

With the large military package announced I guess Germany thinks similar?