Ukraine

[Keith_M]

...
Germany could invade Poland again and you would defend them....


I really appreciate the updates you give on here, and I realise it's probably stressful for you right now reading all this stuff, but I think that comment was a bit too much.

[Stairway 2 7]

I really appreciate the updates you give on here, and I realise it's probably stressful for you right now reading all this stuff, but I think that comment was a bit too much.

Light hearted I don't think he'd welcome the return of the reich in anyway and thought that would be pretty obvious. I've seen the poster say the uk government is in a similar vain to early 30s NS. I'm sure he doesn't mean they are going to keep going until they exterminate people. But if he think I'm linking him to a supporter of the fuhrers early moves then I totally apologise.

He's clearly left wing and pretty anti war so that would be ridiculous comparison anyway. But I do hesitate to put up anything on this thread anti Germany as it takes half an hour before an angry defence. You should see how the Eastern Europeans are speaking about Germany this year, I think they have done a lot of damage to relations

[Stairway 2 7]

Aiden aslin one of the brits captured in Mariupol is back online after being released from death row. His twitter account cossackgundi was hugely popular pre and all the way through the war.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cossackgundi/status/1574510920969392128

[Keith_M]

Light hearted I don't think he'd welcome the return of the reich in anyway and thought that would be pretty obvious. I've seen the poster say the uk government is in a similar vain to early 30s NS. I'm sure he doesn't mean they are going to keep going until they exterminate people. But if he think I'm linking him to a supporter of the fuhrers early moves then I totally apologise.
...


Fair enough mate. As I said, I do really appreciate your updates on here.

:aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

Light hearted I don't think he'd welcome the return of the reich in anyway and thought that would be pretty obvious. I've seen the poster say the uk government is in a similar vain to early 30s NS. I'm sure he doesn't mean they are going to keep going until they exterminate people. But if he think I'm linking him to a supporter of the fuhrers early moves then I totally apologise.

He's clearly left wing and pretty anti war so that would be ridiculous comparison anyway. But I do hesitate to put up anything on this thread anti Germany as it takes half an hour before an angry defence. You should see how the Eastern Europeans are speaking about Germany this year, I think they have done a lot of damage to relations

No need to apologise, it never crossed my mind that you meant anything insidious. This forum is intended for debate and sometimes that debate can be robust, imo that's a good thing. I like to challenge your point of view mainly because on the German aspect I see things completely different from you and most definitely base my opinion on different sources of information to you, although when it comes to most of the issues on this war I think we're in agreement. Like all things Holy Ground, it would be pointless and boring if everyone agreed.

[Stairway 2 7]

No need to apologise, it never crossed my mind that you meant anything insidious. This forum is intended for debate and sometimes that debate can be robust, imo that's a good thing. I like to challenge your point of view mainly because on the German aspect I see things completely different from you and most definitely base my opinion on different sources of information to you, although when it comes to most of the issues on this war I think we're in agreement. Like all things Holy Ground, it would be pointless and boring if everyone agreed.

I'm glad as I was worried when I read it back. I personally think Germany has been too restrained but Scholz has to from a pacifist party he's in a hard position. I think the uk has been tremendous in regards to military aid.

But that's not jingoism as the German government are great, from Covid to growth and dealing with an energy crisis. On the other hand boris and truss governments are probably the worst political parties in Europe in the last 50 years. An evil party who's self interest and contempt for the poor has destroyed the nation. Germany will grow whilst the uk has ten years of destruction and pain to come.

Somehow whilst the uk is at the beginning of a collapse not seen since the war, I'm smiling thanks to Ryan porteous

[cabbageandribs1875]

Thousands of Russians have been looking to escape enlistment by attempting to get into Georgia


so now the Kremlin is opening an army enlisting hub at that Border

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/juliadavisnews/status/1574860347697205262?s=46&t=xmlJSTCfpGA3ZDETnfWG4g

These cheerleaders for the war in Russia seem incapable of basic maths. If they are at war with NATO as they think, surely they must know they can’t win? Russia has a tiny population compared with NATO and even smaller economy. Their military spend even lower still and that’s before you get into their levels of corruption. They are showing up at a gunfight with a butter knife.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/LawDavF/status/1574901335597645824

LawDavF
Extraordinary. A contender for the least inspiring speech ever dleivered by a commander, one guaranteed to make his audience even more despondent than they were when he began

wartranslated
·
8h
Mobik regiment commander greets his soldiers. Says he doesn't know their mission, equipment. Says he was pulled from vacation to serve. Admits he has health issues, but most problems are not enough to be demobilised. Part 1

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1574995349114351616

@HenryJFoy
💥 Scoop - US demanding EU speed up financial aid to Ukraine amid frustration in Washington at Brussels paying so little so slowly

US officials frustrated at EU go-slow over cash for Kyiv assailed European delegations at UNGA in NY last week - demanding Brussels “expeditiously deliver promised economic assistance to Ukraine” and set up a “regular mechanism” for financial support, sources tell
@FinancialTimes

The EU has promised more than €9bn to Ukraine since the war started but has so far paid… €2.2bn.

The US has provided $8.4bn and is seeking to send a further $4.5bn

[Stairway 2 7]

@TheStudyofWar
·
6h
NEW: #Russian authorities in occupied parts of #Ukraine completed their falsified annexation “referenda” and implausibly claimed that each sham referendum received between 87 and 99% approval from Ukrainian residents.

http://isw.pub/RusCampaignSept27

[Moulin Yarns]

Light hearted I don't think he'd welcome the return of the reich in anyway and thought that would be pretty obvious. I've seen the poster say the uk government is in a similar vain to early 30s NS. I'm sure he doesn't mean they are going to keep going until they exterminate people. But if he think I'm linking him to a supporter of the fuhrers early moves then I totally apologise.

He's clearly left wing and pretty anti war so that would be ridiculous comparison anyway. But I do hesitate to put up anything on this thread anti Germany as it takes half an hour before an angry defence. You should see how the Eastern Europeans are speaking about Germany this year, I think they have done a lot of damage to relations

But the UK government are exterminating people by stealth!! Poverty kills!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220928/796f2cc5889e74ee33f72285607e51e0.jpg

Pipelines through Ukraine now closing as well. Europe might have a chilly winter but Russia is going to be running very low on cash.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Why would Russia blow up the pipeline instead of just shutting things down?

[Stairway 2 7]

Why would Russia blow up the pipeline instead of just shutting things down?

I think it's so they don't get taken to court. They are still pretending to be a country that follows laws, hence the silly independent observers from Syria watching the elections.

They won't want to be in breach of contract if they are ever to resume normality internationally. They cut down production last time saying it was maintenance, then it was a problem with a major part ect ect

[WhileTheChief..]

Yeah I just figured they could shut things down and ignore what anybody says. Same effect really.

They’ll have plenty gas to sell to nobody now and it will ensure that Europe acts quicker to find alternatives.

[Stairway 2 7]

Lyman pretty much encircled, 3000 Russian soldiers need to run

WarMonitor3
Professor Michael Clark on Sky News just now said its already too late for the Russians in Lyman to get their equipment out and if they dont escape soon it will be too late for them to get any men out

He also said that Ukraine is showing the world how modern warfare should be done

[Stairway 2 7]

nexta_tv
·

Former #Russian national team midfielder Diniyar Bilyaletdinov received a subpoena from the military registration and enlistment office

[Stairway 2 7]

MoscowTimes
·
4h
Russia's children's rights commissioner on Wednesday said that Ukrainian children taken to Russia from Mariupol initially showed negative attitudes toward Russia, but now don't wish to return home.

Kyiv has called the forced relocations of Ukrainian children a war crime

[Stairway 2 7]

Boom, literally


@visegrad24
·
1m
BREAKING:

Ukraine will receive another 18 HIMARS from the US in the new USD 1.1 billion military aid package, bringing the total number up to 34

[Ozyhibby]

Boom, literally


@visegrad24
·
1m
BREAKING:

Ukraine will receive another 18 HIMARS from the US in the new USD 1.1 billion military aid package, bringing the total number up to 34

Brilliant news. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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[Keith_M]

Watching the news on Tagesschau yesterday and there was a video of local government officials in the occupied regions visiting the houses of people that failed to turn up to vote in the referendums, with fully armed soldiers standing in the background.

A Fair and Free Referendum? Aye, right!

[Smartie]

https://www.tiktok.com/@aravosis/video/7148446638141377834?_r=1&_t=8W42fy60OdJ&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7148446638141377834

This chap has been plausible in the past.

[Stairway 2 7]

Who blew up the pipelines?

https://mobile.twitter.com/EmmaMAshford/status/1575137413340561411

[hibsbollah]

Interesting article on Russian conscription and race.

https://novaramedia.com/2022/09/27/russia-is-using-ethnic-minorities-as-cannon-fodder-in-ukraine/

[Jones28]

Just hearing on the radio that the areas that definitely voted in favour of joining Russia and the numbers absolutely are not fudged at all will be incorporated in to Russia tomorrow.

So does this mean that any incursion of Ukranian forces in to these areas could be construed by Mad Vlad as an invasion of Russian soil and justify "escalation" - something like feeding their own soldiers or providing them with medical supplies for example.

[Smartie]

Just hearing on the radio that the areas that definitely voted in favour of joining Russia and the numbers absolutely are not fudged at all will be incorporated in to Russia tomorrow.

So does this mean that any incursion of Ukranian forces in to these areas could be construed by Mad Vlad as an invasion of Russian soil and justify "escalation" - something like feeding their own soldiers or providing them with medical supplies for example.

I'm not sure Russian "escalation" is to be feared.

Putin knows he's at it with these areas and he has no such justification.

He's cried nuclear wolf so often now it's hard to take his "I'm not bluffing" nonsense seriously, although we know what happened to the boy who cried wolf so we shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.

In my opinion, his referenda and bluster should change nothing. The west continues to equip Ukraine, Ukraine continue to fight to regain their territory, sanctions continue until the Russians are back on their own agreed territory.

Incidents involving gas pipes etc can be treated on their own merits.

Putin knows the risks involved in nuclear escalation. Aside from that, I don't know what escalation he's got to give, or certainly any sort of escalation worthy of being afraid of?

[Jones28]

I'm not sure Russian "escalation" is to be feared.

Putin knows he's at it with these areas and he has no such justification.

He's cried nuclear wolf so often now it's hard to take his "I'm not bluffing" nonsense seriously, although we know what happened to the boy who cried wolf so we shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.

In my opinion, his referenda and bluster should change nothing. The west continues to equip Ukraine, Ukraine continue to fight to regain their territory, sanctions continue until the Russians are back on their own agreed territory.

Incidents involving gas pipes etc can be treated on their own merits.

Putin knows the risks involved in nuclear escalation. Aside from that, I don't know what escalation he's got to give, or certainly any sort of escalation worthy of being afraid of?

That was kind of the point of the sarcastic elements of my post tbf :wink:

[Smartie]

That was kind of the point of the sarcastic elements of my post tbf :wink:

Having re-read it, it now realise that.

Sorry.

:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Reading that some towns in northern luhansk voted 99% for joining Russia. The only problem they were recaptured by Ukraine a few weeks ago so unsure how they got 99% of the votes in when the Internet is down. Sure the Syrian government independent advisors will find any skullduggery going on

[WhileTheChief..]

Interesting article on Russian conscription and race.

https://novaramedia.com/2022/09/27/russia-is-using-ethnic-minorities-as-cannon-fodder-in-ukraine/

They will travel via Moscow, meaning hundreds of thousands of angry people next to the Kremlin.

Exactly the same happened leading to their revolution.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not forgetting blowing up nord stream is a huge environmental disaster

@astroehlein
·
3h
“The methane emissions will be equal to about 32% of Denmark’s annual greenhouse-gas discharges, Kristoffer Bottzauw, head of the Danish Energy Agency, said in a briefing on Wednesday in Copenhagen

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/captainblackse1/status/1574778741875695618?s=46&t=yu67GV9Gmxg4Fpp6h1PmNQ

With shelter like this, Russians will die of cold if this lasts to winter.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Down 20% in 2 weeks. War not as cool when your personally going to have to face the Ukrainians


Yaroslav Trofimov
@yarotrof
Putin’s mobilization has had quite an effect on Russian public opinion: less than half now tell pollsters that they want the war in Ukraine to be continued

[makaveli1875]

I'm not sure Russian "escalation" is to be feared.

Putin knows he's at it with these areas and he has no such justification.

He's cried nuclear wolf so often now it's hard to take his "I'm not bluffing" nonsense seriously, although we know what happened to the boy who cried wolf so we shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.

In my opinion, his referenda and bluster should change nothing. The west continues to equip Ukraine, Ukraine continue to fight to regain their territory, sanctions continue until the Russians are back on their own agreed territory.

Incidents involving gas pipes etc can be treated on their own merits.

Putin knows the risks involved in nuclear escalation. Aside from that, I don't know what escalation he's got to give, or certainly any sort of escalation worthy of being afraid of?

I think we’re going to see a nuclear bomb go off before this year is finished . Maybe not on a populated area but he’s going to fire 1 off to show he’s serious

[Stairway 2 7]

I think we’re going to see a nuclear bomb go off before this year is finished . Maybe not on a populated area but he’s going to fire 1 off to show he’s serious

And then it's the end of his army, his nation as far as a trade partner with China India ect and his premiership. A good chance it will be the end of Russia as it is just now. It would have to be the very last move. Russia is ran by a mafia state, they won't want the end of their good lives. Plus would the hundreds of people needed to fire it all go ahead with it

[Hibby70]

It would probably detonate on launch

[Stairway 2 7]

Sums up a lot. A Russian demining system was destroyed by a mine

https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1575592597049192448

[Jones28]

Missile strike in Dnipro killed 2 children, a mother and grandmother 1 day before the father of the kids was due back from the frontline.

[judas]

Even if Russia could force 300,000 guys to go and fight in Ukraine they just don't have any decent gear to equip them with. The war will likely drag on for a considerable amount of time and Russia will do a lot more damage to Ukraine, but Russia's demise is inevitable.

Russias demise may be inevitable, but It will most certainly take the rest of the western world with it.

I do genuinely believe Russia will turn to nukes.

[Bridge hibs]

Russias demise may be inevitable, but I will most certainly take the rest of the western world with it.

I do genuinely believe Russia will turn to nukes.Putin is probably the only living person to want that outcome, I would hope that if it ever came to that he would be taken down by his own people. As Stairway 2 7 and others have said already on this thread, if he was going to do it why wait until now

[Ozyhibby]

Putin is already backtracking on mobilisation. He fears his own people. He is not as powerful as is made out by some. I doubt he will get to use nuclear weapons before he is removed from power.


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[w pilton hibby]

Putin is already backtracking on mobilisation.

Where are you seeing this?

[Moulin Yarns]

he regional governor in Zaporizhzhia says at least 23 civilians have been killed and dozens injured in a Russian strike on a on a civilian convoy

[judas]

Russia will deploy an escalate to de-escalate approach.

It will use a nuke/s and expect the West (especially in Europe) to be repulsed, scared and ready to sit limply at the negotiating table.

Kissinger once said to Nixon that they had to make Vietnam fear the mad man Nixon. What followed was one of the biggest aerial bombing campaigns in history (over North Vietnam). And it worked for a time, bringing N Vietnam back to the table and allowing Nixon to sell his 'peace with honour' outcome and subsequent withdrawal from Vietnam.

But in this case, Russia isn't going anywhere.

I think the key player here is China, but that may be insufficient.

[Rumble de Thump]

Russia will deploy an escalate to de-escalate approach.

It will use a nuke/s and expect the West (especially in Europe) to be repulsed, scared and ready to sit limply at the negotiating table.

Kissinger once said to Nixon that they had to make Vietnam fear the mad man Nixon. What followed was one of the biggest aerial bombing campaigns in history (over North Vietnam). And it worked for a time, bringing N Vietnam back to the table and allowing Nixon to sell his 'peace with honour' outcome and subsequent withdrawal from Vietnam.

But in this case, Russia isn't going anywhere.

I think the key player here is China, but that may be insufficient.

The reason the Kremlin hasn't launched a nuclear weapon is because what you have said will happen will never happen. Almost everyone in Russia will not want to be vaporised. People don't want nuclear war. If Putin and his chums choose to fire a nuclear weapon they will most likely be prevented from doing so by other people with some sense. Otherwise, Russia will be finished.

[Stairway 2 7]

Russia will deploy an escalate to de-escalate approach.

It will use a nuke/s and expect the West (especially in Europe) to be repulsed, scared and ready to sit limply at the negotiating table.

Kissinger once said to Nixon that they had to make Vietnam fear the mad man Nixon. What followed was one of the biggest aerial bombing campaigns in history (over North Vietnam). And it worked for a time, bringing N Vietnam back to the table and allowing Nixon to sell his 'peace with honour' outcome and subsequent withdrawal from Vietnam.

But in this case, Russia isn't going anywhere.

I think the key player here is China, but that may be insufficient.

I very much disagree, using a nuke to de-escalate is mental probably too mental for even Vladimir. China, the EU and the USA have reportedly all told Russia in the last week that the use of nukes will bring the full force of nato.

Vlad has just given a speech saying he is seeking a ceasefire from today as long as the oblasts are allowed to be annexed. He's failed to mention he doesn't control all the area in all four, and is about to lose a huge section of luhansk

[judas]

The reason the Kremlin hasn't launched a nuclear weapon is because what you have said will happen will never happen. Almost everyone in Russia will not want to be vaporised. People don't want nuclear war. If Putin and his chums choose to fire a nuclear weapon they will most likely be prevented from doing so by other people with some sense. Otherwise, Russia will be finished.

Putin doesn't much care for people and the ones in his cabal are in a corner.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/irgarner/status/1575565880335138817?s=46&t=pgnuUGOaYft9o3_hzpBHoA


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[Ozyhibby]

Where are you seeing this?

He had to reprimand local officials for mobilising the wrong people in some places because he was coming under pressure.


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[Rumble de Thump]

Putin doesn't much care for people and the ones in his cabal are in a corner.

He cares about recreating the Soviet Union. Launching a nuclear missile, which will lead to the destruction of Russia, is not going to help him achieve that.

[WhileTheChief..]

Have you seen the nick of their AK-47s?!!

Not concerned in the slightest about their nukes. If they worked, he’d have tried to use one by now.

Besides, it’s not his decision, he needs dozens or hundreds of similar minded people to try and launch them. Never gonna happen.

[Stairway 2 7]

@ChristopherJM
·

Zelensky response: He says Ukraine is de facto part of NATO alliance. “Today, Ukraine is applying to make it de jure… We are taking our decisive step by signing Ukraine's application for accelerated accession to NATO

[Ozyhibby]

@ChristopherJM
·

Zelensky response: He says Ukraine is de facto part of NATO alliance. “Today, Ukraine is applying to make it de jure… We are taking our decisive step by signing Ukraine's application for accelerated accession to NATO

Their membership is a given once they defeat Russia.


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[CyberSauzee]

A sad but no doubt a very common story of Ukrainian and Russian relatives split apart because of the war.

https://twitter.com/nastasiaKlimash/status/1575649514261618688?t=NuW4o05lP51t4huKB0oVCA&s=19

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/warinukraineyet/status/1575899756307415040?s=46&t=pgnuUGOaYft9o3_hzpBHoA
Delay on mobilisation.


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[Glory Lurker]

Is there something behind Biden saying Putin shouldn't misunderstand that NATO will defend every inch of its territory?

[Ozyhibby]

Is there something behind Biden saying Putin shouldn't misunderstand that NATO will defend every inch of its territory?

It’s a warning on infrastructure I think. Any damage to undersea cables or pipelines belonging to NATO countries is off limits.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Cummings wants us to talk to Putin, just as he tries to illegally annexe. Absolute cretin

Dominic Cummings
@Dominic2306
·
3h
Please apply this logic to repairing diplomatic relations with Russia, UKR needs diplomacy not more rubble

[Stairway 2 7]

Lyman surrounded with a thousand Russians inside. It's estimated another 1,500 escaped with barely any equipment. They tried to establish another defence but Ukraine engaged in the night. Ukrainians with night vision and modern weapons against demoralised Russians with no night vision or much equipment.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mhmck/status/1575971495435636737

@mhmck
It's 1 a.m. in Ukraine and there's a battle underway on the outskirts of Kreminna, Luhansk region.

Advancing Ukrainian troops are turning the Russian retreat from Lyman, Donetsk region, into a rout

TrentTelenko
·
5h
If AFU is at the gates of Kreminna.

Then there can't be a Svatove to Kreminna Russian defense line.

Upshot if true:

A general Russian collapse in Northern Luhansk is not far off

[Since90+2]

Have you seen the nick of their AK-47s?!!

Not concerned in the slightest about their nukes. If they worked, he’d have tried to use one by now.

Besides, it’s not his decision, he needs dozens or hundreds of similar minded people to try and launch them. Never gonna happen.

Russia has the capability to launch nuclear weapons, you can be absolutely certain of that.

They've been doing successful tests on them since the 1950s, they have not suddenly lost that capability.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/jayinkyiv/status/1575734229232914432?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

Look at the kit they are sending the conscripts to war with.[emoji102]


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/jayinkyiv/status/1575734229232914432?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

Look at the kit they are sending the conscripts to war with.[emoji102]


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That looks like one of those groups that reenact historical battles.

[Hibrandenburg]

Russia has the capability to launch nuclear weapons, you can be absolutely certain of that.

They've been doing successful tests on them since the 1950s, they have not suddenly lost that capability.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

[WhileTheChief..]

Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

The UKR ambassador included?!

He was interviewed on Sky recently and said UKR aren't concerned by their nuclear threats.

There have been numerous experts talking about the corruption throughout the military and that their nuclear weapons program would have been equally effected. Some go as far as to say it's inconceivable that the weapons systems have been maintained to a satisfactory level.

How much testing has been done sone 1991? How much have we heard about Russian nukes the last 20+ years? Nothing. We would have heard about it plenty if they had modernised or updated their missile program. It was on the news all the time prior to the break up of the USSR.

I also think we had have seen much more talk and action from the US if they were worried about it.

[hibsbollah]

The UKR ambassador included?!

He was interviewed on Sky recently and said UKR aren't concerned by their nuclear threats.

There have been numerous experts talking about the corruption throughout the military and that their nuclear weapons program would have been equally effected. Some go as far as to say it's inconceivable that the weapons systems have been maintained to a satisfactory level.

How much testing has been done sone 1991? How much have we heard about Russian nukes the last 20+ years? Nothing. We would have heard about it plenty if they had modernised or updated their missile program. It was on the news all the time prior to the break up of the USSR.

I also think we had have seen much more talk and action from the US if they were worried about it.

You may as well ask ‘How much of we heard about US nuclear weapons programmes for 20+ years?’ The answer is very little. Because the US France Pakistan India both Koreas China Israel and the others would rather it was top secret.

Be in no doubt all these nuclear powers, including Russia, pose a real and present danger to the survival of the world order as we know it. Some of the ‘know it all’ posturing about how we’re dealing with a real world Laurel and Hardyski is embarrassing.

[WhileTheChief..]

Good summary of things here, he touches on the nuke issue a little but it’s worth watching the whole thing.


https://youtu.be/1ndxe9z_ru4

Really interesting his take on the simple things like logistics. For example, the US has delivered around 750k rounds of ammo for the artillery they’ve provided.

They can only carry up to 45 rounds per 5 tonne truck and have to move them from Poland to the East of UKR. As he says, do the math!

I like hearing little details like this.

[Since90+2]

The UKR ambassador included?!

He was interviewed on Sky recently and said UKR aren't concerned by their nuclear threats.

There have been numerous experts talking about the corruption throughout the military and that their nuclear weapons program would have been equally effected. Some go as far as to say it's inconceivable that the weapons systems have been maintained to a satisfactory level.

How much testing has been done sone 1991? How much have we heard about Russian nukes the last 20+ years? Nothing. We would have heard about it plenty if they had modernised or updated their missile program. It was on the news all the time prior to the break up of the USSR.

I also think we had have seen much more talk and action from the US if they were worried about it.

I think you are allowing yourself to believe something you want to be true.

Russia has the capability to deploy nuclear weapons and it would be extremely foolish of anyone in a position of power to think otherwise.

[Bostonhibby]

https://twitter.com/jayinkyiv/status/1575734229232914432?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

Look at the kit they are sending the conscripts to war with.[emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe seems to have the same disregard for his own people as Stalin did, just conscripting groups as cannon fodder, sadly that sounds what these poorly equipped and probably poorly informed lads are about to find they are.

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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/jayinkyiv/status/1575734229232914432?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

Look at the kit they are sending the conscripts to war with.[emoji102]


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That's brutal, poor men will be absolute slaughtered

[judas]

I think you are allowing yourself to believe something you want to be true.

Russia has the capability to deploy nuclear weapons and it would be extremely foolish of anyone in a position of power to think otherwise.

That’s how I see it.

The idealism and acquiescence to the views of various pro Ukraine sources raises my eyebrows on here daily.

Putins modernisation and investment in his nuclear arsenal been noted by many Western commentators dating back almost to the beginning of his tenure.

Gerald Warner writing for Reaction life has been talking about it for at least a decade.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s how I see it.

The idealism and acquiescence to the views of various pro Ukraine sources raises my eyebrows on here daily.

Putins modernisation and investment in his nuclear arsenal been noted by many Western commentators dating back almost to the beginning of his tenure.

Gerald Warner writing for Reaction life has been talking about it for at least a decade.

We also read a lot about the modernisation of its conventional forces? Turns out that it hadn’t actually happened and a lot of Generals have nice villas in Tuscany.

It doesn’t really matter though does it? We can’t change our behaviour in the face of a nuclear threat.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/haruspexut/status/1576162720113885185?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

More examples of Russia’s military modernisation.


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[Stairway 2 7]

That’s how I see it.

The idealism and acquiescence to the views of various pro Ukraine sources raises my eyebrows on here daily.

Putins modernisation and investment in his nuclear arsenal been noted by many Western commentators dating back almost to the beginning of his tenure.

Gerald Warner writing for Reaction life has been talking about it for at least a decade.

Most sources that talked about the Russian army pre February have proven themselves to have been so misguided. Its obvious now the second army of the world was a potemkin army that wouldn't last against any modern army. It couldn't take Kyiv when all Ukraine had was Soviet weapons and nlaws.

Saying that I'm sure they will be able to send a nuke, although they won't. Putin wants a great Russian empire not the end of Russia that would come post him sending one.

It's the same arguments since February on repeate. In the real war Ukraine has taken back about 40% of the land Russia had in April. They are on the brink of losing Northern luhansk and Ukraine won't stop there

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/haruspexut/status/1576162720113885185?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

More examples of Russia’s military modernisation.


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I don’t want to spoil the relentless fun but isn’t that more likely to be a token passed down from Russian father to son? Very common among military families to have these kind of keepsakes.

[WhileTheChief..]

He seems to have the same disregard for his own people as Stalin did, just conscripting groups as cannon fodder, sadly that sounds what these poorly equipped and probably poorly informed lads are about to find they are.

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I'm reading that the reason the rushed the annexations is so they can conscript all the men living in these areas, precisely to lead the front line as you say.

Not sure it will work in practice. None of those 'being liberated' want to turn around and start fighting their fellow Ukrainian's.

[WhileTheChief..]

I think you are allowing yourself to believe something you want to be true.

Russia has the capability to deploy nuclear weapons and it would be extremely foolish of anyone in a position of power to think otherwise.

We all went it to be true i'd bet!

I'm not trying to trivialise the issue, and clearly I don't know more than anyone else, but everything I'm seeing and reading allows me to feel entirely comfortable about the situation.

We'll all have our own take on things and, as you say, those in actual power will need to take it seriously. I've no doubt that they are.

[Stairway 2 7]

The day after Putin says its a part of Russia, Ukraine captures lyman

https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1576169905925128193

[hibsbollah]

I'm reading that the reason the rushed the annexations is so they can conscript all the men living in these areas, precisely to lead the front line as you say.

Not sure it will work in practice. None of those 'being liberated' want to turn around and start fighting their fellow Ukrainian's.

I posted a novara media link earlier about the conscription from central Asian republics, some are being offered $2000 to sign up, some of these regions are relatively poor compared to western urban Russia. Very hard for young men from discriminated against groups, without many other career opportunities, to turn down.

[WhileTheChief..]

That's brutal, poor men will be absolute slaughtered

This is going to sound harsh, but if they don't, they could be the next batch of Russians carrying our the atrocities we saw in Bucha and elsewhere.

War is hell.

[Stairway 2 7]

300,000 men now estimated to have left Russia in the last week. 100,000 to Kazakhstan alone

[StevieC]

The city of Dnipro was his with more rockets last week. One hit a bus station taking out around 100 local buses in the subsequent fires. One also hit close to the centre of the city.

[WhileTheChief..]

I posted a novara media link earlier about the conscription from central Asian republics, some are being offered $2000 to sign up, some of these regions are relatively poor compared to western urban Russia. Very hard for young men from discriminated against groups, without many other career opportunities, to turn down.

Missed the link.

Did it say if they knew what they going to fight for? As in, I assume it would be Putin's narrative and they'd have no idea of the realities they'd be walking into?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/milhistnow/status/1576085500359675904?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

It’s an old playbook.


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[hibsbollah]

Missed the link.

Did it say if they knew what they going to fight for? As in, I assume it would be Putin's narrative and they'd have no idea of the realities they'd be walking into?

https://novaramedia.com/2022/09/27/russia-is-using-ethnic-minorities-as-cannon-fodder-in-ukraine/

Here it is, apologies it quotes a £3000 sweetener, not $2000.
If ‘white’ Russian conscripts were under the impression that they were going to a training exercise back in February when they were sent to the front, it’s likely that ethnic Kazakhs from the middle of nowhere are similarly in the dark about what they are being sent to I reckon.

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/milhistnow/status/1576085500359675904?s=46&t=QmOL_iBPiHuxue2EIrlTFA

It’s an old playbook.


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Putin actually said the same after Crimea in 2014, our ambition stops here, or words to that effect.

[Stairway 2 7]

Russia should have retreated days ago

https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1576181946584997888
christogrozev
Not sure what happened to all 4k ++ Russian forces surrounded in Lyman, but this video from one of the entry roads from this morning suggests many of them were destroyed by artillery while trying to leave the town

[WhileTheChief..]

https://novaramedia.com/2022/09/27/russia-is-using-ethnic-minorities-as-cannon-fodder-in-ukraine/

Here it is, apologies it quotes a £3000 sweetener, not $2000.
If ‘white’ Russian conscripts were under the impression that they were going to a training exercise back in February when they were sent to the front, it’s likely that ethnic Kazakhs from the middle of nowhere are similarly in the dark about what they are being sent to I reckon.

Thanks for posting.

I'm hoping these regions can all break away from Russia as a result of this, if that's what their people want.

It's horrific the lengths the Russians will go to with zero regard for people's lives.

The whole federation needs dismantled post war with total nuclear disarmament to follow.

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for posting.

I'm hoping these regions can all break away from Russia as a result of this, if that's what their people want.

It's horrific the lengths the Russians will go to with zero regard for people's lives.

The whole federation needs dismantled post war with total nuclear disarmament to follow.

I think lifting of sanctions should be conditioned on nuclear disarmament.


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[Smartie]

I hate to say it but I just don't see how you rehabilitate a nation with their expansionist ambitions back into normal international relations.

They've proven they cannot be trusted and I'd be surprised if any future regime were any better than the current one.

It's a hellish state of affairs.

[Kato]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fd-JhHLXgAMau-V?format=jpg&name=large

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[Bridge hibs]

I hate to say it but I just don't see how you rehabilitate a nation with their expansionist ambitions back into normal international relations.

They've proven they cannot be trusted and I'd be surprised if any future regime were any better than the current one.

It's a hellish state of affairs.Getting rid of Putin would probably be a start but that looks remote just now. Or he may die of this mysterious illness he was supposed to be dying with but he is still no deid

[Since90+2]

I think lifting of sanctions should be conditioned on nuclear disarmament.


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Absolutely no chance Russia would agree to nuclear disarmament, not unilaterally at least if that's what you mean.

[Stairway 2 7]

I hate to say it but I just don't see how you rehabilitate a nation with their expansionist ambitions back into normal international relations.

They've proven they cannot be trusted and I'd be surprised if any future regime were any better than the current one.

It's a hellish state of affairs.

It doesn't matter what Russia does or doesn't do once they aren't in Ukrainian land. This was their one chance of getting Ukraine. They will post war have HIMARS, nasam systems ect, plus will have security pacts in place.

Russia is going down the tubes on its own. Europe has diversified its fuel and speeded up net zero. Its population is going to cut by half in the next 80 years. Its had a massive brain drain this year and it will be a political pariah for decades

[Ozyhibby]

Absolutely no chance Russia would agree to nuclear disarmament, not unilaterally at least if that's what you mean.

Depends who and what we are negotiating with? If it’s a country on its knees on the verge of breaking up with the population on the streets then who knows what will be on the table.


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[Ozyhibby]

Getting rid of Putin would probably be a start but that looks remote just now. Or he may die of this mysterious illness he was supposed to be dying with but he is still no deid

I would say Putin will not survive Ukraine winning the war and I’d say that was almost certain now. Putin won’t be doing any negotiating.


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[Hibs4185]

I don’t want to spoil the relentless fun but isn’t that more likely to be a token passed down from Russian father to son? Very common among military families to have these kind of keepsakes.

maybe they’ve handed down their helmets and rifles too

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/1576248108690079745?s=46&t=xxtDKdPIPN2Rxo4GRbQaSw

[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1576139768840060928?s=46&t=xxtDKdPIPN2Rxo4GRbQaSw

Waiting list to get into Ukraines military.[emoji122]


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[Bostonhibby]

I'm reading that the reason the rushed the annexations is so they can conscript all the men living in these areas, precisely to lead the front line as you say.

Not sure it will work in practice. None of those 'being liberated' want to turn around and start fighting their fellow Ukrainian's.

I can see why they think that might help and they'd do it no doubt, but it assumes Ukraine's well organised and equipped troops won't just roll up and capture them or accept a swift surrender since they helpfully know where they all are.

Putin has no regard for Russians outside his elite circle as many of these conscripts may find out.

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[Gordy M]

Just watching a podcast (Joe Rogan) and chap on there saying that very early on, a peace agreement had been reached with Russia pulling out, the Donbas region remaining autonomous from Ukraine and Russia, and no Nato membership for Ukraine.....according to this guy it was the west(UK and USA) that persuaded Ukraine not to accept such a deal? He said it was sourced and reported in a few different places, but ive not seen that. Is that true. Not sure how to post a link but its on Youtube in the last day or so.

[Onceinawhile]

Just watching a podcast (Joe Rogan) and chap on there saying that very early on, a peace agreement had been reached with Russia pulling out, the Donbas region remaining autonomous from Ukraine and Russia, and no Nato membership for Ukraine.....according to this guy it was the west(UK and USA) that persuaded Ukraine not to accept such a deal? He said it was sourced and reported in a few different places, but ive not seen that. Is that true. Not sure how to post a link but its on Youtube in the last day or so.

Well, if it's on Joe rogan, you can be at least 75% certain it's nonsense.

[Stairway 2 7]

Just watching a podcast (Joe Rogan) and chap on there saying that very early on, a peace agreement had been reached with Russia pulling out, the Donbas region remaining autonomous from Ukraine and Russia, and no Nato membership for Ukraine.....according to this guy it was the west(UK and USA) that persuaded Ukraine not to accept such a deal? He said it was sourced and reported in a few different places, but ive not seen that. Is that true. Not sure how to post a link but its on Youtube in the last day or so.

So it seems rogans went from right wingers saying the vaccines king to saying tucker carlsons favourite line, that it was Biden that ended talks.

It's clearly mental. One of the most obvious reasons is 18,000 Ukraine soldiers died between 2014 to 2022 trying to regain Donbas and crimea. So the theory goes they were just going to give up a much larger area of there land than 2014 that so many died for.

Ukraine new what neutrality under the Russian umbrella looks like, that's what they wanted for Ukraine. As for nato Ukraine said before and during it was happy to not have nato membership, Russia has admitted that that doesn't matter to it. A symbol of this is Russia has not flinched with Sweden and Finland joining. Its also taken 90% of its border guards away from nato borders to fight in Ukraine. Its not about nato its about regaining the Soviet Union

[WhileTheChief..]

Some on the left / far left are trying so hard to find fault with what the the US / West have been doing since this all started.

They'd happily see UKR suffer a bit more if it meant they could pin some blame on anyone else apart form Russia.

You'd have thought that if anything it would have nipped all the pro Russian thoughts in the bud but unfortunately not.

[Stairway 2 7]

You'd bet on a good % going in October in Northern luhansk

War_Mapper
·
6h
Over the month of September 🇺🇦 has liberated approximately 10,608km² of Ukraine.

This means that 🇷🇺 currently occupies ~17.72% of Ukraine. ~1.76% less of the total area of the country than at the end of August

Roughly 6.5% of Ukraine was occupied pre Feb 2022

[Stairway 2 7]

You'd bet on a good % going in October in Northern luhansk

War_Mapper
·
6h
Over the month of September 🇺🇦 has liberated approximately 10,608km² of Ukraine.

This means that 🇷🇺 currently occupies ~17.72% of Ukraine. ~1.76% less of the total area of the country than at the end of August

Roughly 6.5% of Ukraine was occupied pre Feb 2022

The Russian culmination was probably a few months earlier than most predicted. Some say this thread has been to Ukraine positive in September 😵 🙃

For comparison below are what the changes were in the past 3 months:
June: 🇷🇺 +1,500km²
July: 🇷🇺 +165km²
August: 🇷🇺 +460km²

Ukr regained 5 times the amount of territory in September then Russia captured in the previous 3 months

[judas]

https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/1576248108690079745?s=46&t=xxtDKdPIPN2Rxo4GRbQaSw

[emoji23]


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I lost the humour at ‘body bags’.

This isn’t a game.

[Stairway 2 7]

I find it hard to laugh at such talk. This isn’t a game.

I'd agree if it was a British twitter page, but it's the Ukrainian armies and they are saying to russia this isn't a game.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Some on the left / far left are trying so hard to find fault with what the the US / West have been doing since this all started.

They'd happily see UKR suffer a bit more if it meant they could pin some blame on anyone else apart form Russia.

You'd have thought that if anything it would have nipped all the pro Russian thoughts in the bud but unfortunately not.

ok...so the US/West are faultless?


here's a perspective from a self proclaimed liberal - certainly not on the far left. it's also from 7 years ago, and pretty much predicts exactly what has transpired.

I'm not saying I completely agree with his conclusion, but I certainly think that the West has bloody hands in this whole thing, just as does Putin. This whole thing is a result of imperialism, and two great powers clashing - the west just isn't willing to see itself in that light.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

[StevieC]

Just watching a podcast (Joe Rogan) and chap on there saying that very early on, a peace agreement had been reached with Russia pulling out, the Donbas region remaining autonomous from Ukraine and Russia, and no Nato membership for Ukraine.....according to this guy it was the west(UK and USA) that persuaded Ukraine not to accept such a deal? He said it was sourced and reported in a few different places, but ive not seen that. Is that true. Not sure how to post a link but its on Youtube in the last day or so.

It’s Nonsense.

I said right at the beginning that Russia wanted a land bridge to Crimea, to say that they would have accepted something that didn’t deliver that is fanciful.

Ukraine is making good progress in Kharkiv/Luhansk regions, but you can bet that any attempt to split that land bridge will meet with a bigger force. Think back to the Ukrainian defence of Mariupol, and Russia pulling all their troops from Kyiv in order to take the last of the areas needed to create that bridge.

[Lendo]

Just watching a podcast (Joe Rogan) and chap on there saying that very early on, a peace agreement had been reached with Russia pulling out, the Donbas region remaining autonomous from Ukraine and Russia, and no Nato membership for Ukraine.....according to this guy it was the west(UK and USA) that persuaded Ukraine not to accept such a deal? He said it was sourced and reported in a few different places, but ive not seen that. Is that true. Not sure how to post a link but its on Youtube in the last day or so.

I would say that if it’s on Joe Rogan’s podcast there is almost 100% chance the opposite is true.

[Stairway 2 7]

Joint effort to build 18 howitzers for Ukraine.

@ChuckPfarrer
·
TEAM EFFORT: Denmark has signed a letter of intent with Slovakia, Norway & Germany to fund the production of Zuzana-2 self-propelled howitzers for Ukraine. The systems will be produced in Slovakia. The Zuzana can fire NATO standard 155mm shells.
https://kucnews.com/news/ukraine/denmark-norway-and-germany-will-buy-zuzana-2-howitzers-for-ukraine-109996.html

[Stairway 2 7]

Mike Martin predicted lymans encirclement spot on last week. Here's his predictions for this week's advances complete with now famous crayon diagrams.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1576340933238722560

[Ozyhibby]

ok...so the US/West are faultless?


here's a perspective from a self proclaimed liberal - certainly not on the far left. it's also from 7 years ago, and pretty much predicts exactly what has transpired.

I'm not saying I completely agree with his conclusion, but I certainly think that the West has bloody hands in this whole thing, just as does Putin. This whole thing is a result of imperialism, and two great powers clashing - the west just isn't willing to see itself in that light.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

The only ones at fault for invading Ukraine are Russia. The don’t get a free pass just because of others bad behaviour.
There is plenty to criticise the west for (Iraq is a good starting point) but the invasion of Ukraine is on Russia and nobody else.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/status/1576629745693110272?s=46&t=GmlPMKYhdnb2gowOZFneMA
Lots of chat online about big advances for Ukraine in Kherson.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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[superfurryhibby]

Some on the left / far left are trying so hard to find fault with what the the US / West have been doing since this all started.

They'd happily see UKR suffer a bit more if it meant they could pin some blame on anyone else apart form Russia.

You'd have thought that if anything it would have nipped all the pro Russian thoughts in the bud but unfortunately not.

Any links to that, particularly the bit about some on the left/far left being happy to see Ukraine suffer? I kind of very much doubt that and wonder if you might just be embellishing that statement a bit?

[Stairway 2 7]

Any links to that, particularly the bit about some on the left/far left being happy to see Ukraine suffer? I kind of very much doubt that and wonder if you might just be embellishing that statement a bit?

Many on the far left and far right want Ukraine to give up their sovereign land and excuse genocide by making a deal. See Corbyn in Feb, Tommy Sheridan putting articles on his twitter doubting Bucha and the slaughter of azovstal prisoners, when the evidence was overwhelming. Tucker carlson and the American right have mirrored what the far left have said bizarrely

[superfurryhibby]

Many on the far left and far right want Ukraine to give up their sovereign land and excuse genocide by making a deal. See Corbyn in Feb, Tommy Sheridan putting articles on his twitter doubting Bucha and the slaughter of azovstal prisoners, when the evidence was overwhelming. Tucker carlson and the American right have mirrored what the far left have said bizarrely

I'll need a link to critique that, but Sheriden and Corbyn are not many. I suspect there are people not buying into the western narrative of events and how perhaps questioning how complicit our powers that be have been in all of this.

No one can justify Putin's actions, but it's not as black and white as Russia bad.

[Hibbyradge]

I'll need a link to critique that, but Sheriden and Corbyn are not many. I suspect there are people not buying into the western narrative of events and how perhaps questioning how complicit our powers that be have been in all of this.

No one can justify Putin's actions, but it's not as black and white as Russia bad.

In what ways is the west to blame?

[Ozyhibby]

I'll need a link to critique that, but Sheriden and Corbyn are not many. I suspect there are people not buying into the western narrative of events and how perhaps questioning how complicit our powers that be have been in all of this.

No one can justify Putin's actions, but it's not as black and white as Russia bad.

Yes it is. Russia are bad.


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[superfurryhibby]

In what ways is the west to blame?

Seldom is heard a discouraging word......

[Hibbyradge]

Seldom is heard a discouraging word......

It was a serious question.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'll need a link to critique that, but Sheriden and Corbyn are not many. I suspect there are people not buying into the western narrative of events and how perhaps questioning how complicit our powers that be have been in all of this.

No one can justify Putin's actions, but it's not as black and white as Russia bad.
You can find a link as it's hardly obscure, read anything from Corbyns stop the war foundation on Ukraine or look at Tommy's twitter its full of pro Russian articles. We shouldn't need to do the lag work for you tbf

Pretty much is Russia complete fault. Ukraine is a sovereign country. All leaders had meetings with Putin pre war said please don't invade, Putin said we won't invade, they invaded. Like saying a wife that got a black eye might have deserved it. It is an invasion from a ****ing clown that wants the Soviet Union back, thankfully Ukrainians don't let their land be stolen easily

[Stairway 2 7]

Seldom is heard a discouraging word......

If your saying there isn't anti British and American posts on this forum then your not reading many threads. But the Russian invasion has one aggressor

[Stairway 2 7]

Whilst we were looking at the Donbas, big advances from Ukraine in Kherson

https://mobile.twitter.com/Matthia09062758/status/1576622982205931520

[Smartie]

The road to war was long, complex and there were many factors that Russia may have some justification to be aggrieved about but the invasion of a sovereign nation was unjustifiable and some of the actions since inexcusable.

It’s never all black and white and goodies vs baddies but the Russians crossed a line that shouldn’t be crossed.

[Ozyhibby]

The road to war was long, complex and there were many factors that Russia may have some justification to be aggrieved about but the invasion of a sovereign nation was unjustifiable and some of the actions since inexcusable.

It’s never all black and white and goodies vs baddies but the Russians crossed a line that shouldn’t be crossed.

What would legitimate Russian grievances be?


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[superfurryhibby]

If your saying there isn't anti British and American posts on this forum then your not reading many threads. But the Russian invasion has one aggressor

What is "the left"? I don't think Tommy Sheriden represents much other than Tommy Sheridan these days.

There is a strong right wing narrative that wants to speak about left wing opinion being divided over the war in UKraine. I haven't read anyone seeking to justify Russia's attack. Criticising the mainstream narrative doesn't mean to say one supports Russian aggression, far from it.

You make a lot of statements on here, I don't agree with them all.

[Stairway 2 7]

What is "the left"? I don't think Tommy Sheriden represents much other than Tommy Sheridan these days.

There is a strong right wing narrative that wants to speak about left wing opinion being divided over the war in UKraine. I haven't read anyone seeking to justify Russia's attack. Criticising the mainstream narrative doesn't mean to say one supports Russian aggression, far from it.

You make a lot of statements on here, I don't agree with them all.

If you are adding a but when criticising Russian actions your part of the problem. Eg Russia is to blame but maybe Ukraine should give up some land and end this suffering, Russia is to blame but what about Iraq, Russia is to blame but Zelensky is dodgy
There can be dissections of the pre war policies post genocide. But while thousands of Ukrainian children are being shipped to eastern Russia to be re-educated and sanctioned mass atrocities are being uncovered after every bit of land Ukraine regains, if every bit of of your focus right now isn't about the *******s who are committing it then I really don't understand you

[The Tubs]

What is "the left"? I don't think Tommy Sheriden represents much other than Tommy Sheridan these days.

There is a strong right wing narrative that wants to speak about left wing opinion being divided over the war in UKraine. I haven't read anyone seeking to justify Russia's attack. Criticising the mainstream narrative doesn't mean to say one supports Russian aggression, far from it.

You make a lot of statements on here, I don't agree with them all.

You can easily say the same about the right. Have a look at Italy or the US.

[superfurryhibby]

If you are adding a but when criticising Russian actions your part of the problem. Eg Russia is to blame but maybe Ukraine should give up some land and end this suffering, Russia is to blame but what about Iraq, Russia is to blame but Zelensky is dodgy
There can be dissections of the pre war policies post genocide. But while thousands of Ukrainian children are being shipped to eastern Russia to be re-educated and sanctioned mass atrocities are being uncovered after every bit of land Ukraine regains, if every bit of of your focus right now isn't about the *******s who are committing it then I really don't understand you

I think it's possible to have empathy and feel for the victims of war and still be able to look at some of the other issues in this conflict. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend?

[James310]

I'll need a link to critique that, but Sheriden and Corbyn are not many. I suspect there are people not buying into the western narrative of events and how perhaps questioning how complicit our powers that be have been in all of this.

No one can justify Putin's actions, but it's not as black and white as Russia bad.

Sheridan was/is on the payroll of Sputnik media, basically Russian state media.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sheridan was/is on the payroll of Sputnik media, basically Russian state media.

George Galloway was employed by rt, hence on twitter it says employee of Russian state media. He said he wasn't amused when they added it ha

[Lendo]

George Galloway was employed by rt, hence on twitter it says employee of Russian state media. He said he wasn't amused when they added it ha

That was hilarious. Threatening to sue Twitter over it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm left and that's why I'm annoyed that people who's political thinking I agree with, are ambivalent over Russia. Its like they need to blame everything on the west or their world view collapses. I liked this George monbiot thread on the subject

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1572827056756375552

GeorgeMonbiot
To those in the West who defended Putin when he launched his war of aggression, who recycled Kremlin propaganda and transferred the blame to Ukraine or NATO:
Any second thoughts?
Regrets?
Qualms about supporting a man whose fascistic autocracy was staring them in the face

Here's a reminder of how some people I once admired sought to justify Putin's invasion when it began:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-imperialist-left-vladimir-putin

And here's how they tried to transfer the blame to anyone but Putin. I see these falsehoods as deeply shameful, comparable in some ways to some Westerners' attempts to excuse or deny Stalin's Holodomor

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1503758826461409287

True anti-imperialism means opposing not only the West’s imperialism, essential as this is. It’s about opposing all imperialism, regardless of where it comes from. And this include Putin's

Some people have asked why I criticise people on the left who have made excuses for Putin, and not people on the far right.
Well, I don't expect any better from fascists. I do expect better from the left.
If we don't stand for justice, we don't stand for anything

[Stairway 2 7]

olliecarroll
·
1h
I’m told the collapse of Russian lines in ne Kherson is a story that is still in progress. Understand Ukraine has moved south by at least 20km since yesterday. “It could be even more interesting by the morning,” a recon soldier tells me

[Smartie]

What would legitimate Russian grievances be?


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

Did you ever watch this? It was linked right back at the start of this thread, I certainly remember watching it at some point over the few weeks prior to the invasion back in February.

Basically I agree with much of what this guy says. Russia had its "sphere of influence" and America/ NATO/ The West made certain promises around the time that Germany was reunified and the Berlin wall came down. Those promises were broken, and it led to a deterioration in the relationship between Russia and the West, which was actually pretty reasonable until maybe about 2007.

Russia has a long, complex and very bloody history involving being invaded many times over, from all directions. Geographically the area immediately to its West is a difficult area to defend and represents a vulnerability to it, therefore Russia will always be keen to control what goes on there.

Does this in any way excuse Russia's actions in 2014, February of this year and since? No, absolutely not.

But is it possible to understand why a paranoid nation may be anxious about the creep of a defensive alliance closer and closer to its borders, eroding its sphere of influence as it goes? Yes, I think that is reasonable. Does it have reason to be pissed off when they act in good faith and the other side break promises? Yes, I think they do.

Relations between the factions are in a terrible, terrible place now and it is ridiculous that the human race should be contemplating what happens if nuclear weapons are used in this day and age.

I hope Russia get booted firmly out of Ukraine and as quickly as possible. I'd like Putin to "leave his position". We've then got the very tricky situation where relations need to be rebuilt, appropriate deterrents being applied to Russia, but equally we need the "victors" to act with appropriate candour so that somehow the West can also regain the trust of Russia.

God knows how that is done though.

[Glory Lurker]

If Russia is that bothered about NATO encroachment why is it going out its way to take its borders right up against more NATO states?

It is dangerous to allow them any benefit of the doubt. As a state, it is terrible to those in its borders who disagree. If Russsia hadn't put a boot beyond its borders, it would still be an affront to decency. What it might be offended by is an irrelevance. It doesn't deserve respect

Then add the destructive imperialism that it has launched for the second time in eight years.

There is no justification. The Russian state is nazism by another name.

[Smartie]

If Russia is that bothered about NATO encroachment why is it going out its way to take its borders right up against more NATO states?

It is dangerous to allow them any benefit of the doubt. As a state, it is terrible to those in its borders who disagree. If Russsia hadn't put a boot beyond its borders, it would still be an affront to decency. What it might be offended by is an irrelevance. It doesn't deserve respect

Then add the destructive imperialism that it has launched for the second time in eight years.

There is no justification. The Russian state is nazism by another name.

There's a danger in treating them like they are rational, which they currently are not.

Their type of chauvinistic nationalism is hugely dangerous and you can't exactly blame the countries who have joined NATO of their own free will for wanting to do so.

All I'm saying is that the Russians have a very complex history and psyche and events of the past 25 years haven't done much to alleviate their fears (when for a while prior to that there was an optimistic air). It's worth bearing in mind as well that there is a mindset amongst many Russians that Ukraine is simply part of Russia anyway and is being reclaimed (nonsense as that may be).

Their actions in Ukraine, both in 2014 and this year are not justifiable in any way.

My main concern is that when you're dealing with a national psyche, it runs deeper than just one madman at the top and that even with Putin gone more of the same - or even worse - might result.

Although I would say that I was slightly comforted by the awkward body language of all of those in attendance at his indoor speech the other day. It wasn't exactly like a Nazi rally with everyone getting very much into it. Whilst the words of those at the top remain bombastic, I'd be amazed if there wasn't a fairly large realisation happening that all of this is a colossal mistake that needs rectified somehow, especially as they are getting their backsides kicked in Ukraine.

[Bostonhibby]

If Russia is that bothered about NATO encroachment why is it going out its way to take its borders right up against more NATO states?

It is dangerous to allow them any benefit of the doubt. As a state, it is terrible to those in its borders who disagree. If Russsia hadn't put a boot beyond its borders, it would still be an affront to decency. What it might be offended by is an irrelevance. It doesn't deserve respect

Then add the destructive imperialism that it has launched for the second time in eight years.

There is no justification. The Russian state is nazism by another name.

Totally agree, brutes who will play at diplomacy then judge when to launch the next land grab, a great many similarities with Hitlers Germany in the way land is annexed.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Rumble de Thump]

I know some people who are very anti UK/USA government/media. And because the Russian government/media has been saying very different things to the UK/USA (and rest of the world) they are adamant what Russia is saying must be true. They think they are very knowledgeable and more clued up than everyone else but, sadly, they are lunatics. I've heard people say that there are two sides to every story and it's not black and white, as though they have paid no attention whatsoever to what has actually been happening. Russia chose to invade a peaceful neighbour. Genocide has been committed. Children have been raped and abducted. Tens of tousands have been killed. Numerous other countries have been threatened with invasion and told they don't deserve to be sovereign nations. The world has been threatened with nuclear war. This has all been Kremlin policy, promoted and encouraged by Kremlin media. If anyone is not being paid by the Kremlin then why would they attempt to put the blame on anyone other than those at the Kremlin and their enablers?

[hibsbollah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ

Did you ever watch this? It was linked right back at the start of this thread, I certainly remember watching it at some point over the few weeks prior to the invasion back in February.

Basically I agree with much of what this guy says. Russia had its "sphere of influence" and America/ NATO/ The West made certain promises around the time that Germany was reunified and the Berlin wall came down. Those promises were broken, and it led to a deterioration in the relationship between Russia and the West, which was actually pretty reasonable until maybe about 2007.

Russia has a long, complex and very bloody history involving being invaded many times over, from all directions. Geographically the area immediately to its West is a difficult area to defend and represents a vulnerability to it, therefore Russia will always be keen to control what goes on there.

Does this in any way excuse Russia's actions in 2014, February of this year and since? No, absolutely not.

But is it possible to understand why a paranoid nation may be anxious about the creep of a defensive alliance closer and closer to its borders, eroding its sphere of influence as it goes? Yes, I think that is reasonable. Does it have reason to be pissed off when they act in good faith and the other side break promises? Yes, I think they do.

Relations between the factions are in a terrible, terrible place now and it is ridiculous that the human race should be contemplating what happens if nuclear weapons are used in this day and age.

I hope Russia get booted firmly out of Ukraine and as quickly as possible. I'd like Putin to "leave his position". We've then got the very tricky situation where relations need to be rebuilt, appropriate deterrents being applied to Russia, but equally we need the "victors" to act with appropriate candour so that somehow the West can also regain the trust of Russia.

God knows how that is done though.

Exactly. I pretty much agree with all of that.

When I posted the Pozner video I had no idea it would be used as an example of ‘justifying’ Putin’s behaviour. If anyone thinks that they either clearly haven’t watched it, or just think any behaviour except jamming your fists in your ears and trying to hate Russia more loudly than the next guy is ‘apologist’.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know some people who are very anti UK/USA government/media. And because the Russian government/media has been saying very different things to the UK/USA (and rest of the world) they are adamant what Russia is saying must be true. They think they are very knowledgeable and more clued up than everyone else but, sadly, they are lunatics. I've heard people say that there are two sides to every story and it's not black and white, as though they have paid no attention whatsoever to what has actually been happening. Russia chose to invade a peaceful neighbour. Genocide has been committed. Children have been raped and abducted. Tens of tousands have been killed. Numerous other countries have been threatened with invasion and told they don't deserve to be sovereign nations. The world has been threatened with nuclear war. This has all been Kremlin policy, promoted and encouraged by Kremlin media. If anyone is not being paid by the Kremlin then why would they attempt to put the blame on anyone other than those at the Kremlin and their enablers?

Spot on

[superfurryhibby]

Exactly. I pretty much agree with all of that.

When I posted the Pozner video I had no idea it would be used as an example of ‘justifying’ Putin’s behaviour. If anyone thinks that they either clearly haven’t watched it, or just think any behaviour except jamming your fists in your ears and trying to hate Russia more loudly than the next guy is ‘apologist’.

I suspect the wider context is irrelevant to many on here.

Of course the war is reprehensible, inexcusable, diabolical etc. No sane person would argue otherwise.

However, it is part of a much older geo-political struggle.

The USA and it’s political and military allies have blood on their hands on a scale incomparable to what is happening in Ukraine. The ravaging of Latin America for decades, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the death toll and subsequent carnage is incomparable. That of course still doesn’t excuse Russia.

Western hypocrisy is staggering. That still doesn’t excuse Russia.

The war suits many agendas.

[Stairway 2 7]

I suspect the wider context is irrelevant to many on here.

Of course the war is reprehensible, inexcusable, diabolical etc. No sane person would argue otherwise.

However, it is part of a much older geo-political struggle.

The USA and it’s political and military allies have blood on their hands on a scale incomparable to what is happening in Ukraine. The ravaging of Latin America for decades, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the death toll and subsequent carnage is incomparable. That of course still doesn’t excuse Russia.

Western hypocrisy is staggering. That still doesn’t excuse Russia.

The war suits many agendas.

Almost all in here agree the west have mountains of blood on their hands Iraq ect, but whataboutary has f all to with Ukrainian bairns being raped now. Two things can be correct the US/UK are horrible empires who have caused untold pain, Russia is a horrible empire that has caused untold pain.

Putin wanted the Soviet union back. He unprovoked by Ukraine decided to invade and commit genocide. He did the exact same playbook in chechnya, I'm sure that's was the west's fault too.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1576835895910535169

@visegrad24
Apart from pressing south along the Dnipro River, the Ukrainian Army is also advancing from the West, having reached the village of Chkalove.

The Russian forces are once again under threat of encirclement as the Ukrainians go for another pincer maneuver



@IntelWalrus

How it started: Ukrainian civilians preparing for a last stand in Kyiv with nothing but homemade molotovs

How it going: Weekly encirclements of entire Russian BTGs in eastern Ukraine

[superfurryhibby]

Almost all in here agree the west have mountains of blood on their hands Iraq ect, but whataboutary has f all to with Ukrainian bairns being raped now. Two things can be correct the US/UK are horrible empires who have caused untold pain, Russia is a horrible empire that has caused untold pain.

Putin wanted the Soviet union back. He unprovoked by Ukraine decided to invade and commit genocide. He did the exact same playbook in chechnya, I'm sure that's was the west's fault too.

Spare me the whataboutery pish and the emotive language about bairns and rape etc.

[Stairway 2 7]

Spare me the whataboutery pish and the emotive language about bairns and rape etc.

It's complete Whataboutary, what has south American atrocities from the US for to do with this. Start a thread on it if you want and we'll all say it was disgusting it's f all to do with the Ukrainian thread.

And I'm sorry if it's emotive but it's a tiny % of what's happening. Whilst your typing guys what about American atrocities, there's Ukrainian children taken from there parents, sitting in a classroom in eastern Russia being taught Russian.

[The Tubs]

I suspect the wider context is irrelevant to many on here.

Of course the war is reprehensible, inexcusable, diabolical etc. No sane person would argue otherwise.

However, it is part of a much older geo-political struggle.

The USA and it’s political and military allies have blood on their hands on a scale incomparable to what is happening in Ukraine. The ravaging of Latin America for decades, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the death toll and subsequent carnage is incomparable. That of course still doesn’t excuse Russia.

Western hypocrisy is staggering. That still doesn’t excuse Russia.

The war suits many agendas.


The US hasn't "ravaged" Latin America. Local left-wing historians normally attribute the region's economic backwardness to the distributive coalitions of local white elites. The US has often supported them, in accordance with the Monroe Doctrine, but it's by and large local problem. Destruction like in Iraq has ever happened in Latin America, unless you talk about white colonisation as a whole.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The only ones at fault for invading Ukraine are Russia. The don’t get a free pass just because of others bad behaviour.
There is plenty to criticise the west for (Iraq is a good starting point) but the invasion of Ukraine is on Russia and nobody else.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You definitely didn't watch the video, did you.

[Stairway 2 7]

You definitely didn't watch the video, did you.

A video of over an hour blaming the west for a war in what Putin is solely to blame. Putin is doing exactly what he did in chechnya to Ukraine, was the the west's fault too or do we ignore that as it doesn't fit.

People sitting in living rooms needing this invasion to fit into their world view, whilst Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick.

[Stairway 2 7]

The Russians don't even use nato as an excuse anymore, just those in the West that want to blame the west.

It was never about nato. Russia admitted that pre war Ukraine offered a peace deal with the promise of staying out of nato.

Also Sweden and Finland signed up to nato and Russia wasn't bothered as it was part of the expansion plans.

Russia has taken over 90% of its soldiers from nato borders to Ukraine, as they aren't worried in any way about nato.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/

Vladimir Putin's chief envoy on Ukraine told the Russian leader as the war began that he had struck a provisional deal with Kyiv that would satisfy Russia's demand that Ukraine stay out of NATO, but Putin rejected it and pressed ahead with his military campaign, according to three people close to the Russian leadership

[superfurryhibby]

The US hasn't "ravaged" Latin America. Local left-wing historians normally attribute the region's economic backwardness to the distributive coalitions of local white elites. The US has often supported them, in accordance with the Monroe Doctrine, but it's by and large local problem. Destruction like in Iraq has ever happened in Latin America, unless you talk about white colonisation as a whole.

The USA has directly contributed to the overthrow of democratically elected governments in the likes of Chile and Nicaragua. Their influence has contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, either at the hands of right wing dictators or during ensuring wars. Add to that the funding/arming of sinister military factions, particularly in central America and the predatory acquisition of resources and economic plunder, it's been a ravaging. I don't think you need to look to hard to find out how much blood US policy has on it's hands, on it's doorstep.

A local problem...... ridiculous. It's been going on for a long, long time.

"Both “soft” and “hard” interventions can have widespread devastating effects on the quality of life for people in targeted countries. U.S. Military intervention has caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths and decades-long military dictatorships that have inflicted trauma on a mass scale. From 1898 to 1989, the U.S. directly invaded: Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Grenada, Guatemala, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Panama – some of them multiple times.

The U.S. government has also provided support for brutal military dictatorships in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama that have collectively been responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and social trauma lasting generations".

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2019/02/28/brutal-history-of-u-s-intervention-in-latin-america/

However, let's not get too distracted from the matter in hand or we will be asked to start a separate thread.

[Smartie]

A video of over an hour blaming the west for a war in what Putin is solely to blame. Putin is doing exactly what he did in chechnya to Ukraine, was the the west's fault too or do we ignore that as it doesn't fit.

People sitting in living rooms needing this invasion to fit into their world view, whilst Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick.

You could at least have read the date the video was uploaded and realise that it was recorded 3 and half years or so before Putin invaded, and justifies absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think we can agree to agree about your statement that "Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick" part and disagree about all of the rest.

[superfurryhibby]

You could at least have read the date the video was uploaded and realise that it was recorded 3 and half years or so before Putin invaded, and justifies absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think we can agree to agree about your statement that "Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick" part and disagree about all of the rest.


Totally agree. The video allows an informative insight into some of the key factors that have contributed to the current situation. (Aside from the fact that this was three years before the invasion) No one can surely interpret that lecture and discussion as in any way legitimising Russian aggression

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56720589

For Russia's leader the West's 30-member defensive military alliance has one aim - to split society in Russia and ultimately destroy it. In a Victory Day speech on 9 May he accused Nato of launching an active military build-up on territories adjacent to Russia.

Ahead of the war, he demanded that Nato turn the clock back to 1997 and reverse its eastward expansion, removing its forces and military infrastructure from member states that joined the alliance from 1997 and not deploying "strike weapons near Russia's borders". That means Central Europe, Eastern Europe and the Baltics"

Those agreements made in the aftermath of the end of the Soviet Union and the emergence of a new Europe clearly still resonate with those in power in Russia.

Just to be clear, it doesn't justify, but it provides context as to why this is happening

[hibsbollah]

You could at least have read the date the video was uploaded and realise that it was recorded 3 and half years or so before Putin invaded, and justifies absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think we can agree to agree about your statement that "Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick" part and disagree about all of the rest.

Absolutely. I also think someone might be getting their ‘Empirical’ and ‘imperial’ confused. But when there’s so many things wrong in a post I suppose you have to pick out what you can :agree:

[Stairway 2 7]

Absolutely. I also think someone might be getting their ‘Empirical’ and ‘imperial’ confused. But when there’s so many things wrong in a post I suppose you have to pick out what you can :agree:

From someone that spent 3 days arguing that you doubted Bucha happened like was being reported, even after you kept getting shown mountains of evidence like satellite imagery your some boy to say that. You then said when Russia took severodonetsk, that that was Russia changing to a new tactic of small sensible gains. It obviously wasn't and the slaughter there created the losses of land these months

[Stairway 2 7]

You could at least have read the date the video was uploaded and realise that it was recorded 3 and half years or so before Putin invaded, and justifies absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think we can agree to agree about your statement that "Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick" part and disagree about all of the rest.

No I mean yous are using it as a defence of why the invasion happened. I'm not going to watch it as he's been saying the same things for 20 years. It's usually about the great battle between China and the US. Its people like him that need to shoehorn this into being an East vs West, when it's Russia regaining the Soviet Union.

Russia wasn't threatened by Ukraine in anyway, it showed this by thinking it would be over in 3 days before going onto Moldova.

[McSwanky]

From someone that spent 3 days arguing that you doubted Bucha happened like was being reported, even after you kept getting shown mountains of evidence like satellite imagery your some boy to say that. You then said when Russia took severodonetsk, that that was Russia changing to a new tactic of small sensible gains. It obviously wasn't and the slaughter there created the losses of land these monthsI watched the video and it gave a good insight into how the West have clearly, over decades, been pissing the Russians off. I think it's good to have an open mind about these sorts of things and not get lost in your bubble.

It doesn't mean anybody condones the actions of Putin, but it does provide some context. I don't think there's any doubt that this could have been handled better by the West.

Sometimes it's good to consider the alternative point of view.

[Stairway 2 7]

The USA has directly contributed to the overthrow of democratically elected governments in the likes of Chile and Nicaragua. Their influence has contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, either at the hands of right wing dictators or during ensuring wars. Add to that the funding/arming of sinister military factions, particularly in central America and the predatory acquisition of resources and economic plunder, it's been a ravaging. I don't think you need to look to hard to find out how much blood US policy has on it's hands, on it's doorstep.

A local problem...... ridiculous. It's been going on for a long, long time.

"Both “soft” and “hard” interventions can have widespread devastating effects on the quality of life for people in targeted countries. U.S. Military intervention has caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths and decades-long military dictatorships that have inflicted trauma on a mass scale. From 1898 to 1989, the U.S. directly invaded: Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Grenada, Guatemala, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Panama – some of them multiple times.

The U.S. government has also provided support for brutal military dictatorships in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama that have collectively been responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and social trauma lasting generations".

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2019/02/28/brutal-history-of-u-s-intervention-in-latin-america/

However, let's not get too distracted from the matter in hand or we will be asked to start a separate thread.

You should start a new thread as its fascinating. I agree with you also, the US particularly the cia did overthrow governments. Its also zip to do with Ukraine mind

[Stairway 2 7]

I watched the video and it gave a good insight into how the West have clearly, over decades, been pissing the Russians off. I think it's good to have an open mind about these sorts of things and not get lost in your bubble.

It doesn't mean anybody condones the actions of Putin, but it does provide some context. I don't think there's any doubt that this could have been handled better by the West.

Sometimes it's good to consider the alternative point of view.
Or do you mean just agree with your particular view. Its the usual way with some on here to say I'm not like you with your mainstream media, then upload a view that mirrors your own. Then the next move is to call those with a different opinion nieve, closed minded or thick

I'm not saying you don't have your view, just I thoroughly disagree with it

[superfurryhibby]

You should start a new thread as its fascinating. I agree with you also, the US particularly the cia did overthrow governments. Its also zip to do with Ukraine mind

Sorry, but I was answering another post and I think I will reserve the right to post what I feel like on here, unless otherwise directed by admins not to do so.

[superfurryhibby]

I watched the video and it gave a good insight into how the West have clearly, over decades, been pissing the Russians off. I think it's good to have an open mind about these sorts of things and not get lost in your bubble.

It doesn't mean anybody condones the actions of Putin, but it does provide some context. I don't think there's any doubt that this could have been handled better by the West.

Sometimes it's good to consider the alternative point of view.

It's healthy, well done for having an open mind and understanding why this video adds context.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sorry, but I was answering another post and I think I will reserve the right to post what I feel like on here, unless otherwise directed by admins not to do so.

You fire on talking about the US actions in South America on the Ukraine thread all you want lad 👍

[hibsbollah]

I watched the video and it gave a good insight into how the West have clearly, over decades, been pissing the Russians off. I think it's good to have an open mind about these sorts of things and not get lost in your bubble.

It doesn't mean anybody condones the actions of Putin, but it does provide some context. I don't think there's any doubt that this could have been handled better by the West.

Sometimes it's good to consider the alternative point of view.

I think the other thing it emphasises is the importance of imperial pretensions overall. The Russians have a ‘national psyche’ as Smartie alluded to earlier, of a frustrated imperial power, humiliated by the west at the end of the Cold War. If they were a British cultural group they’d probably be Ulster loyalists. Frustrated, full of macho posturing. There were conscious decisions made by politicians in the early 1990s NOT to allow Russia to reconstruct post Cold War like Italy or Germany were allowed to do after their defeat on the battlefield. That unquestionably affected the direction the Russian state took. It’s been understood for years and years so it has nothing to do with Ukraine invasion far less an attempt to justify it. There are multiple National psyches, all different. If you don’t study and think about National psyches you can’t understand Brexit in this country, you can’t understand post imperial Africa, you probably can’t understand anything in geopolitics.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ukraine now outside svatove in the North and lysychansk/severodonetsk below it. The smart money will be on them surrounding l/s rather than a front assault like Russia did whilst taking it
https://mobile.twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1576856174061752322

Meanwhile Northern Kherson is collapsing. 25,000 Russian troops there with no bridges to escape. Surrender or use a boat. Will be a massive amount of military equipment acquired by Ukraine.

https://mobile.twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1576889428789764096

[The Tubs]

The USA has directly contributed to the overthrow of democratically elected governments in the likes of Chile and Nicaragua. Their influence has contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, either at the hands of right wing dictators or during ensuring wars. Add to that the funding/arming of sinister military factions, particularly in central America and the predatory acquisition of resources and economic plunder, it's been a ravaging. I don't think you need to look to hard to find out how much blood US policy has on it's hands, on it's doorstep.

A local problem...... ridiculous. It's been going on for a long, long time.

"Both “soft” and “hard” interventions can have widespread devastating effects on the quality of life for people in targeted countries. U.S. Military intervention has caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths and decades-long military dictatorships that have inflicted trauma on a mass scale. From 1898 to 1989, the U.S. directly invaded: Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Grenada, Guatemala, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Panama – some of them multiple times.

The U.S. government has also provided support for brutal military dictatorships in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama that have collectively been responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and social trauma lasting generations".

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2019/02/28/brutal-history-of-u-s-intervention-in-latin-america/

However, let's not get too distracted from the matter in hand or we will be asked to start a separate thread.

This all true. The social trauma, however, was started by the Spanish and Portuguese and continues until today. The US isn't at the centre of most of these countries' problems today. I'd say the layers of local economic groups that have built up over 500 years are far more relevant.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting from a Scottish point of view. Scottish greens are going more along the lines of German greens and are updating their defence policy due to russias invasion.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-plan-revamp-defence-28141169

Scottish Greens plan to revamp defence policy after Russian invasion of Ukraine
EXCLUSIVE: Green MSP Ross Greer is leading on proposals to change his party's defence policy

The Scottish Greens are planning to ditch their “blanket” opposition to arms exports after Vladimir Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.

Party MSP Ross Greer is behind moves to update their defence policy in a way that would support Ukraine’s right to “shoot down” Russian jets.

As well as being opposed to NATO and nuclear weapons, the Greens, who are junior partners in the Scottish Government, are hostile to the arms trade.

But Russia’s actions in Ukraine have forced the Greens to rethink how to assist countries that have been attacked.

The party will debate its defence policy this month and Greer, tipped as a future leader, has proposed changes.

In an article for the Bright Green website, Greer wrote: “Our current policy is fragmented and does not, for example, clearly explain what our alternative is to NATO membership.

“As things stand, it would also place a blanket ban on supplying military equipment to Ukraine, despite this being a position our members appear to overwhelmingly support (based on internal consultations I’ve carried out in recent months before speaking publicly).”

He continued: “It is an unavoidable reality that there won’t be peace without further Ukrainian military victories. Ukrainian civilians can only be protected from the mass executions, torture and rape too many have already fallen victim to at the hands of Russian forces if their military has the equipment it needs to protect them.

“And yes, the grim reality is that this equipment must include the weapons needed to shoot down Russian jets, to destroy Russian artillery and to drive Russian troops out of the towns they are occupying and brutalising.

For Ukrainians, this is a defensive war against an illegal invasion of their sovereign state. That is why, despite concerns about the risks attached, we have not opposed the transfer of weapons to Ukraine’s military, who would have lost this war long before now had it not been for these critical supplies.”

His proposed change reads: “Export of military technology including munitions should be strictly limited to the supply of those who have a clear defensive need, such as nations subject to illegal foreign aggression. The protection of innocent life should be the primary concern of the arms export system

In another significant shift, Green is proposing that his party shifts position by supporting the European Union’s Common Defence & Security Policy.

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting from a Scottish point of view. Scottish greens are going more along the lines of German greens and are updating their defence policy due to russias invasion.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-plan-revamp-defence-28141169

Scottish Greens plan to revamp defence policy after Russian invasion of Ukraine
EXCLUSIVE: Green MSP Ross Greer is leading on proposals to change his party's defence policy

The Scottish Greens are planning to ditch their “blanket” opposition to arms exports after Vladimir Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.

Party MSP Ross Greer is behind moves to update their defence policy in a way that would support Ukraine’s right to “shoot down” Russian jets.

As well as being opposed to NATO and nuclear weapons, the Greens, who are junior partners in the Scottish Government, are hostile to the arms trade.

But Russia’s actions in Ukraine have forced the Greens to rethink how to assist countries that have been attacked.

The party will debate its defence policy this month and Greer, tipped as a future leader, has proposed changes.

In an article for the Bright Green website, Greer wrote: “Our current policy is fragmented and does not, for example, clearly explain what our alternative is to NATO membership.

“As things stand, it would also place a blanket ban on supplying military equipment to Ukraine, despite this being a position our members appear to overwhelmingly support (based on internal consultations I’ve carried out in recent months before speaking publicly).”

He continued: “It is an unavoidable reality that there won’t be peace without further Ukrainian military victories. Ukrainian civilians can only be protected from the mass executions, torture and rape too many have already fallen victim to at the hands of Russian forces if their military has the equipment it needs to protect them.

“And yes, the grim reality is that this equipment must include the weapons needed to shoot down Russian jets, to destroy Russian artillery and to drive Russian troops out of the towns they are occupying and brutalising.

For Ukrainians, this is a defensive war against an illegal invasion of their sovereign state. That is why, despite concerns about the risks attached, we have not opposed the transfer of weapons to Ukraine’s military, who would have lost this war long before now had it not been for these critical supplies.”

His proposed change reads: “Export of military technology including munitions should be strictly limited to the supply of those who have a clear defensive need, such as nations subject to illegal foreign aggression. The protection of innocent life should be the primary concern of the arms export system

In another significant shift, Green is proposing that his party shifts position by supporting the European Union’s Common Defence & Security Policy.

Pacifism always sounds good until bad guys show up with guns. About time the greens grew up.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I think the other thing it emphasises is the importance of imperial pretensions overall. The Russians have a ‘national psyche’ as Smartie alluded to earlier, of a frustrated imperial power, humiliated by the west at the end of the Cold War. If they were a British cultural group they’d probably be Ulster loyalists. Frustrated, full of macho posturing. There were conscious decisions made by politicians in the early 1990s NOT to allow Russia to reconstruct post Cold War like Italy or Germany were allowed to do after their defeat on the battlefield. That unquestionably affected the direction the Russian state took. It’s been understood for years and years so it has nothing to do with Ukraine invasion far less an attempt to justify it. There are multiple National psyches, all different. If you don’t study and think about National psyches you can’t understand Brexit in this country, you can’t understand post imperial Africa, you probably can’t understand anything in geopolitics.

:agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

Pacifism always sounds good until bad guys show up with guns. About time the greens grew up.


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Everybody hates the soldier until the enemy is at the gate.

[WhileTheChief..]

"Those are my principles and if you don't like them, well, I have others." :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

Valdimir Pozner is one voice amongst hundreds with views on Putin.

What gives his opinion any more weight than others?

[WeeRussell]

Let’s all do the Pozner.

Nah. Nah.

Who?

[WeeRussell]

A video of over an hour blaming the west for a war in what Putin is solely to blame. Putin is doing exactly what he did in chechnya to Ukraine, was the the west's fault too or do we ignore that as it doesn't fit.

People sitting in living rooms needing this invasion to fit into their world view, whilst Ukrainians are being slaughtered by an empirical prick.

You seem to ken an awfy lot about a video you’re refusing to watch S27?

[WhileTheChief..]

I think the other thing it emphasises is the importance of imperial pretensions overall. The Russians have a ‘national psyche’ as Smartie alluded to earlier, of a frustrated imperial power, humiliated by the west at the end of the Cold War. If they were a British cultural group they’d probably be Ulster loyalists. Frustrated, full of macho posturing. There were conscious decisions made by politicians in the early 1990s NOT to allow Russia to reconstruct post Cold War like Italy or Germany were allowed to do after their defeat on the battlefield. That unquestionably affected the direction the Russian state took. It’s been understood for years and years so it has nothing to do with Ukraine invasion far less an attempt to justify it. There are multiple National psyches, all different. If you don’t study and think about National psyches you can’t understand Brexit in this country, you can’t understand post imperial Africa, you probably can’t understand anything in geopolitics.

Your posts are pretty much always screwed to paint the West as the bad guys. Why is that?

Russia has been a basket case of a country for almost its entire existence. They have contributed nowt since the end of tWW2 other than grief, death and suffering to millions.

[Smartie]

Valdimir Pozner is one voice amongst hundreds with views on Putin.

What gives his opinion any more weight than others?

I'm interested in him from the point of a view of him having a foot in several camps. Whilst his opinions are not without bias (nobody's are) they should be considered to be fairly balanced in an incredibly polarised world.

Should his opinion carry any more weight than others? Possibly not, although it's a valid enough opinion to be taken alongside others.

[Stairway 2 7]

You seem to ken an awfy lot about a video you’re refusing to watch S27?

It's not that I know about it, although I'd bet its similar to the rest of his views on the US. Its more I don't care for people trying to say yes Putin is bad but.. I'm not saying he is as it pre dates, but its getting used as an explaner for genocide.

It's pure victim blaming. There is one person to blame no ifs or buts. Blaming nato is pathetic when Putin said no thank you when Ukraine said it would sign an agreement pre war not to join. Its about Putin regaining the Soviet Union lands

[hibsbollah]

Your posts are pretty much always screwed to paint the West as the bad guys. Why is that?

Russia has been a basket case of a country for almost its entire existence. They have contributed nowt since the end of tWW2 other than grief, death and suffering to millions.

What part of my post do you get that from? The fact that Russia weren’t treated as allies and brought into the ‘international community’ the same way as post WW2 axis powers is incontrovertible fact, it’s not me ‘painting’ anything in any way at all :dunno:

You can disagree with Pozners position if you want to, he himself says (if anyone bothered to watch it through) says that it’s a hypothetical whether a more positive NATO engagement with Russia would have promoted real democracy there, but he thinks it would.

‘Death to millions’? Are you exaggerating a bit here? Are you saying Russia has been committing mass genocide since 1945? Where exactly?

[AgentDaleCooper]

You fire on talking about the US actions in South America on the Ukraine thread all you want lad 👍

I mean this sort of perfectly illustrates theproblem with your perspective, doesn't it - ideological opposition to historical context.

[Stairway 2 7]

I knew abou John Mearsheimer but didn't know much about vladimir pozner. But have read that navaly has him on his list of 500 he wants sanctioned. Pussy riots lawyer Mark Feigin wants him sanctioned also as he is pro annexation of Crimea and inside putins influence https://mobile.twitter.com/syadoz1/status/1541456699311243268

He was also chased out of Georgia, the government had to explain letting a Putin propagandist in
https://agenda.ge/en/news/2021/864


@KShoshiashvili
Right now, in the middle of curfew, @GovernmentGeo
escorted Putin's propagandist Vladimir Posner to the restaurant who arrived in Tbilisi to celebrate his birthday.

Activist are raging at the VINOTEL where the Posner and his friends are feasting


He also said it doesn't make sense that Russia would poison Sergei skripal in the uk 👀 😆
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/9557416

[Stairway 2 7]

I mean this sort of perfectly illustrates theproblem with your perspective, doesn't it - ideological opposition to historical context.

Stop the bus. Us actions decades ago in South America is historical context to the invasion of Ukraine, talk about clutching.

[Ozyhibby]

What part of my post do you get that from? The fact that Russia weren’t treated as allies and brought into the ‘international community’ the same way as post WW2 axis powers is incontrovertible fact, it’s not me ‘painting’ anything in any way at all :dunno:

You can disagree with Pozners position if you want to, he himself says (if anyone bothered to watch it through) says that it’s a hypothetical whether a more positive NATO engagement with Russia would have promoted real democracy there, but he thinks it would.

‘Death to millions’? Are you exaggerating a bit here? Are you saying Russia has been committing mass genocide since 1945? Where exactly?

What was comparable about post WW2 axis powers and Russia that they could have been treated the same?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Ukraine now outside svatove in the North and lysychansk/severodonetsk below it. The smart money will be on them surrounding l/s rather than a front assault like Russia did whilst taking it
https://mobile.twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1576856174061752322

Meanwhile Northern Kherson is collapsing. 25,000 Russian troops there with no bridges to escape. Surrender or use a boat. Will be a massive amount of military equipment acquired by Ukraine.

https://mobile.twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1576889428789764096

Looks like going round lysychansk/severodonetsk

https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1576951372657750017

[The Tubs]

What was comparable about post WW2 axis powers and Russia that they could have been treated the same?


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I remember finding a history book of my grandfather that described the Yalta conferences. It described how Roosevelt trusted the Russians but not the Brits, as he saw them as a young nation, unlike the imperial British. He died, Truman came in and Churchill gave the Iron Curtain speech.

We'll never know if Stalin's USSR could have been a brought into a functioning global community, in which the West could have reduced the exploitation of the dark-skinned and precariousness of labour and the East could have seen a promotion of liberty and democracy — I suspect not. However, it never got a chance.

[Stairway 2 7]

Good news

@nexta_tv

49m
Rafael Grossi, head of the #IAEA, said that the occupiers had released Ihor Murashov, director of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant.

The occupiers detained Murashov on 30 September on the road from #ZNPP to #Energodar.

[Smartie]

It's not that I know about it, although I'd bet its similar to the rest of his views on the US. Its more I don't care for people trying to say yes Putin is bad but.. I'm not saying he is as it pre dates, but its getting used as an explaner for genocide.

It's pure victim blaming. There is one person to blame no ifs or buts. Blaming nato is pathetic when Putin said no thank you when Ukraine said it would sign an agreement pre war not to join. Its about Putin regaining the Soviet Union lands

Agreed.

But do you have any opinion on why he wants to regain the Soviet Union lands? Raw expansionism and imperialism? Land grab for oil purposes? War games with the West over who is influenced and why? The innate sense of paranoia that exists in Russians about being encircled and attacked, therefore they need to control as much as possible of what lies to their immediate West?

[Ozyhibby]

Agreed.

But do you have any opinion on why he wants to regain the Soviet Union lands? Raw expansionism and imperialism? Land grab for oil purposes? War games with the West over who is influenced and why? The innate sense of paranoia that exists in Russians about being encircled and attacked, therefore they need to control as much as possible of what lies to their immediate West?

Could be as simple as demographics? Russia’s population is shrinking fast. It’s getting poorer all the time and he may have thought have an extra 40 million people would help make Russia a great power again?


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[Smartie]

What part of my post do you get that from? The fact that Russia weren’t treated as allies and brought into the ‘international community’ the same way as post WW2 axis powers is incontrovertible fact, it’s not me ‘painting’ anything in any way at all :dunno:

You can disagree with Pozners position if you want to, he himself says (if anyone bothered to watch it through) says that it’s a hypothetical whether a more positive NATO engagement with Russia would have promoted real democracy there, but he thinks it would.

‘Death to millions’? Are you exaggerating a bit here? Are you saying Russia has been committing mass genocide since 1945? Where exactly?

This is absolutely the most interesting point in all of this.

I don't think it's ever a weakness to do a bit of soul searching and ask ourselves if we might have been able to do have done something differently in order to prevent the current war.

As I see it we have 2 different factions on here, split between "Putin is a modern day Hitler who wanted his empire and nothing anybody did was going to stop him" and those who wonder if the West may have had a responsibility in creating the modern Putin mindset.

To be quite honest - for all I've watched the video and taken on opposing views, I'm not sure which side I'm on.

[Stairway 2 7]

Agreed.

But do you have any opinion on why he wants to regain the Soviet Union lands? Raw expansionism and imperialism? Land grab for oil purposes? War games with the West over who is influenced and why? The innate sense of paranoia that exists in Russians about being encircled and attacked, therefore they need to control as much as possible of what lies to their immediate West?

The same reason he didn't go to gorbys funeral. He wants Russia to be as powerful as it ever was, he said the fall of the Soviet Union was the worst day in the last 100 years of European history. I doubt the Polish, Lithuanians ect would agree. Its the same for England fighting tooth and nail for Scotland really. Size complex.

When it was clear they had blown the chance of taking Ukraine and Moldova. He settled for what he wanted next a land bridge to crimea.

It was never about nato, they didn't give two hoots about Finland joining on their border. Zelensky was happy to sign a no nato agreement, but Putin was never interested in a deal

[Just Alf]

Could be as simple as demographics? Russia’s population is shrinking fast. It’s getting poorer all the time and he may have thought have an extra 40 million people would help make Russia a great power again?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm sure it was StevieC who said when the Russians were building up on the borders before the invasion even started that the Ukrainians considered Russia's key aim was to gain a land bridge to Crimea and possibly on to Transnistra(?) .... on one hand that helps their perceived lack of border security and on the other cuts Ukraine off from exporting via coastal ports.

[hibsbollah]

What was comparable about post WW2 axis powers and Russia that they could have been treated the same?


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Far from being few comparables, there were multiple reasons why it made MORE sense for the West to bring Russia in from the Cold War. Gorbachev and then Yeltsin had good relations with successive US presidents. Also, The Marshall Plan had already been a success in cementing US power in Europe and reducing the power of the extremely influential radical left/communists in France, Italy, Greece. They could have done the same in extremely favourable economic climate. The other point being made by the speaker who lived in Russia at that time and makes him well qualified to offer his view, is Russian people felt a lot of warmth to Americans post Berlin Wall and they would have been pushing at an open door.

Most obviously though, Russia historically has been invaded from the West multiple times from the Germans and French, going back to that national psyche insecurity again. It’s obvious that NATO expansion east (especially when you tell them explicitly say you’re not going to )isn’t going to sit well with Yeltsin. And it didn’t, as history shows.

[hibsbollah]

This is absolutely the most interesting point in all of this.

I don't think it's ever a weakness to do a bit of soul searching and ask ourselves if we might have been able to do have done something differently in order to prevent the current war.

As I see it we have 2 different factions on here, split between "Putin is a modern day Hitler who wanted his empire and nothing anybody did was going to stop him" and those who wonder if the West may have had a responsibility in creating the modern Putin mindset.

To be quite honest - for all I've watched the video and taken on opposing views, I'm not sure which side I'm on.

A perfectly reasonable position to take. There’s also a subset of the first group which is ‘Any attempt to look at context is Being An Apologist and I’m going to Shout It Down! Which is just a bit weird. If you have kids doing the rise of the Nazis at Nat 5 or Highers if you remember it from school, the whole syllabus is around whether the post WW1 reparations we made Germany pay was a factor in the rise of Hitler. And there doesn’t seem to be this screeching about being an apologist for the Nazis for discussing it?

[superfurryhibby]

This is absolutely the most interesting point in all of this.

I don't think it's ever a weakness to do a bit of soul searching and ask ourselves if we might have been able to do have done something differently in order to prevent the current war.

As I see it we have 2 different factions on here, split between "Putin is a modern day Hitler who wanted his empire and nothing anybody did was going to stop him" and those who wonder if the West may have had a responsibility in creating the modern Putin mindset.

To be quite honest - for all I've watched the video and taken on opposing views, I'm not sure which side I'm on.

There was a huge missed opportunity following the collapse of Communism. Russia should have been supported to become a modern European democracy. Instead it was left to eventually become an totalitarian Oligarchy and the equivalent of the wild west. I think it's possible to recognise this and still condemn Putin and his war against Ukraine.

[Ozyhibby]

Far from being few comparables, there were multiple reasons why it made MORE sense for the West to bring Russia in from the Cold War. Gorbachev and then Yeltsin had good relations with successive US presidents. Also, The Marshall Plan had already been a success in cementing US power in Europe and reducing the power of the extremely influential radical left/communists in France, Italy, Greece. They could have done the same in extremely favourable economic climate. The other point being made by the speaker who lived in Russia at that time and makes him well qualified to offer his view, is Russian people felt a lot of warmth to Americans post Berlin Wall and they would have been pushing at an open door.

Most obviously though, Russia historically has been invaded from the West multiple times from the Germans and French, going back to that national psyche insecurity again. It’s obvious that NATO expansion east (especially when you tell them explicitly say you’re not going to )isn’t going to sit well with Yeltsin. And it didn’t, as history shows.

Germany and Japan were both occupied during Marshall plan. Would Russia have been ok with US military bases all over Russia?


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[Ozyhibby]

There was a huge missed opportunity following the collapse of Communism. Russia should have been supported to become a modern European democracy. Instead it was left to eventually become an totalitarian Oligarchy and the equivalent of the wild west. I think it's possible to recognise this and still condemn Putin and his war against Ukraine.

Do the Russian people bare any responsibility here or is it all on us?


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[McSwanky]

Or do you mean just agree with your particular view. Its the usual way with some on here to say I'm not like you with your mainstream media, then upload a view that mirrors your own. Then the next move is to call those with a different opinion nieve, closed minded or thick

I'm not saying you don't have your view, just I thoroughly disagree with it

If you want to carry on with your Star Wars goodies v baddies diatribe then carry on. You know nothing of my views, so how can you disagree with them?

[WhileTheChief..]

What part of my post do you get that from? The fact that Russia weren’t treated as allies and brought into the ‘international community’ the same way as post WW2 axis powers is incontrovertible fact, it’s not me ‘painting’ anything in any way at all :dunno:

You can disagree with Pozners position if you want to, he himself says (if anyone bothered to watch it through) says that it’s a hypothetical whether a more positive NATO engagement with Russia would have promoted real democracy there, but he thinks it would.

‘Death to millions’? Are you exaggerating a bit here? Are you saying Russia has been committing mass genocide since 1945? Where exactly?

"..and suffering to millions" is what I posted.

You're seeing it every day.

Just look at the regime. They have something like 400,000 'security' forces to round up and beat their own citizens, yet conscript those from the poorest regions to go fight in UKR. Look at, and compare, the equipment and uniforms each get to see where Putin's priorities lie.

He's caused untold suffering to millions of his own countrymen, let alone those from UKR, Georgia, Syria or anywhere else they've been.

I watched the Pozner thing a while back. I'll try and take another look but it's 2 hours and I figure the highlights will have been mentioned on here already.

In general your views appear to take an anti west / US / UK tone when discussing any Global issues, not specifically this war.

[hibsbollah]

Germany and Japan were both occupied during Marshall plan. Would Russia have been ok with US military bases all over Russia?


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Obviously not. That’s not a genuine question though is it? The Marshall Plan was an ‘economic recovery act’ and had nothing directly to do with military security.

[Stairway 2 7]

If you want to carry on with your Star Wars goodies v baddies diatribe then carry on. You know nothing of my views, so how can you disagree with them?

Goodies and badies is literally what people are trying to do by making the US UK bad and majorly involved, going back to overthrowing south American states here.

Regardless of cause. If Russia thought normally and even slightly close to the Geneva convention there wouldn't be the hatred. Systematic genocide, mass grave after mass grave, deliberately targeting civilians and there homes. They did they same in chechnya, no one is saying if that was the US's fault also. Because Ukraine is the exact same playbook as grozny, Syria too.

[hibsbollah]

"..and suffering to millions" is what I posted.

You're seeing it every day.

Just look at the regime. They have something like 400,000 'security' forces to round up and beat their own citizens, yet conscript those from the poorest regions to go fight in UKR. Look at, and compare, the equipment and uniforms each get to see where Putin's priorities lie.

He's caused untold suffering to millions of his own countrymen, let alone those from UKR, Georgia, Syria or anywhere else they've been.

I watched the Pozner thing a while back. I'll try and take another look but it's 2 hours and I figure the highlights will have been mentioned on here already.

In general your views appear to take an anti west / US / UK tone when discussing any Global issues, not specifically this war.

I’m not going to argue the toss about your views or my views on other subjects on this thread. I’ll treat your posts on their merits, not on what you’ve posted elsewhere.

[Ozyhibby]

Obviously not. That’s not a genuine question though is it? The Marshall Plan was an ‘economic recovery act’ and had nothing directly to do with military security.

Russia has military security though? Nobody has tried to invade it?


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[superfurryhibby]

Germany and Japan were both occupied during Marshall plan. Would Russia have been ok with US military bases all over Russia?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It may have escaped your notice but Russia was actually the Soviet Union, a victorious power that was ideologically opposed to capitalism. Maybe instead of immediately embarking upon a cold war, the American imperialist agenda could have been reigned in a bit and a serious attempt made at building a lasting peace that wasn't inextricably linked to the subjugation of their former allies?


Do the Russian people bare any responsibility here or is it all on us?

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You've come out with this kind of nonsense before and you know the answer. People who live in police states tend to be quite subdued in making their protests public. I wonder how brave you would be in the same circumstances?

[hibsbollah]

Russia has military security though? Nobody has tried to invade it?


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You’ve lost me. I thought it was obvious I was talking about 1941.

[Ozyhibby]

It may have escaped your notice but Russia was actually the Soviet Union, a victorious power that was ideologically opposed to capitalism. Maybe instead of immediately embarking upon a cold war, the American imperialist agenda could have been reigned in a bit and a serious attempt made at building a lasting peace that wasn't inextricably linked to the subjugation of their former allies?



You've come out with this kind of nonsense before and you know the answer. People who live in police states tend to be quite subdued in making their protests public. I wonder how brave you would be in the same circumstances?

Other parts of the USSR managed to transition to democracy? Ukraine has fought very hard to do so.


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[superfurryhibby]

Goodies and badies is literally what people are trying to do by making the US UK bad and majorly involved, going back to overthrowing south American states here.

Regardless of cause. If Russia thought normally and even slightly close to the Geneva convention there wouldn't be the hatred. Systematic genocide, mass grave after mass grave, deliberately targeting civilians and there homes. They did they same in chechnya, no one is saying if that was the US's fault also. Because Ukraine is the exact same playbook as grozny, Syria too.

No one is really trying to do this, you're just making things up.

People are trying to give context and explain what might have led to the current situation.

Ironic that earlier you have tried to stifle discussion around the USA's imperial policy in other parts of the world, then go onto mention Syria and Chechnya in the same post, or does the same rationale only apply when it's you that's making a point?

I would suggest you stop trying to tell people about what you think they believe, despite them making it very clear they condemn Russian brutality, and maybe just focus on what you believe.

[Lendo]

Well these arguments have been a fun read. Maybe time to get back to the topic at hand?

[Ozyhibby]

Well these arguments have been a fun read. Maybe time to get back to the topic at hand?

The more Russia loses, the more we will here people calling for peace talks and compromise involving Ukraine giving up territory.


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[Stairway 2 7]

No one is really trying to do this, you're just making things up.

People are trying to give context and explain what might have led to the current situation.

Ironic that earlier you have tried to stifle discussion around the USA's imperial policy in other parts of the world, then go onto mention Syria and Chechnya in the same post, or does the same rationale only apply when it's you that's making a point?

I would suggest you stop trying to tell people about what you think they believe, despite them making it very clear they condemn Russian brutality, and maybe just focus on what you believe.

Because its the same government Putin's that committed the genocide in Syria obviously, your talking about us government actions in South America from before I was born.

Do people condemn Putin's brutality. There's about four pages of saying aren't the west to blame also. I've literally put up articles talking about mass systematic rape or the burning of prisoners of war and there is barely a reply. Put up something about the azov battalion and you know there will be comments though.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well these arguments have been a fun read. Maybe time to get back to the topic at hand?

I've put huge war news in the middle of today's discussion and many aren't bothered I don't think. The most important thing is what's happening in Ukraine and thankfully there are huge advances in the east and south

[Stairway 2 7]

There was a few on here that literally said it was nieve to think Ukraine could win, anyone want to step forward

@PhillipsPOBrien
It’s fascinating that it seems to be mostly those who were saying in February that Russia was so strong that Ukraine should be sacrificed that are now saying that Ukraine can’t be made too strong to save poor Putin from humiliation

I think what it shows is that the realists have no understanding of war. First they made it sound easy; with the awesome Russian army streaking forward like in some video game and taking whatever they wanted. Now they act like it’s some tap you can turn off and on with Ukraine

Doesn’t work like that. You can’t just dial it up and down easily. Tell me what support in particular you want to stop to slow Ukraine down?

[Stairway 2 7]

nexta_tv
·

The #EU will allocate a new €5 billion tranche of aid to #Ukraine in mid-October, according to Valdis Dombrovskis, executive Vice President of the European Commission for an Economy that Works for People

[hibsbollah]

The more Russia loses, the more we will here people calling for peace talks and compromise involving Ukraine giving up territory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In every conflict Ive ever followed in the news, ‘Peace talks’ have been invariably seen as a good thing. I don’t remember it ever been discussed much on here by anyone, but why is ‘Calling for peace talks’ now a bad thing? Sounds like you want the hell to drag on for as long as possible. Peace talks don’t automatically mean the Ukrainians have to give up x or y, you don’t like it, the Russians aren’t acting in good faith, you walk away from the talks. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on whether it should happen, I just think it’s interesting you automatically think of them as a negative?

[superfurryhibby]

Because its the same government Putin's that committed the genocide in Syria obviously, your talking about us government actions in South America from before I was born.

Do people condemn Putin's brutality. There's about four pages of saying aren't the west to blame also. I've literally put up articles talking about mass systematic rape or the burning of prisoners of war and there is barely a reply. Put up something about the azov battalion and you know there will be comments though.

The USA have a very active (detrimental) influence on political and economic life across South America to this day.

As for your statement on Syria, I'll not even bother.

[Stairway 2 7]

In every conflict Ive ever followed in the news, ‘Peace talks’ have been invariably seen as a good thing. I don’t remember it ever been discussed much on here by anyone, but why is ‘Calling for peace talks’ now a bad thing? Sounds like you want the hell to drag on for as long as possible. Peace talks don’t automatically mean the Ukrainians have to give up x or y, you don’t like it, the Russians aren’t acting in good faith, you walk away from the talks. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on whether it should happen, I just think it’s interesting you automatically think of them as a negative?

Russia has said explicitly that any peace talks must end with annexation of Ukrainian land, that's a pointless starting point. Ukraine pre war said they would be neutral and not join nato, Russia tried to conquer the country. Why should Ukraine go for talks now when its regained 2% of its nation in the last 4 weeks. The wars only going one way, Ukraine has said it will now talk when Russians are over the border

[Stairway 2 7]

Is that an attacking or defensive fence

nexta_tv
·
2h
#Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin supported the proposal to build a fence on the border with #Russia

[Stairway 2 7]

Lots of support announced by the EU today


NEXTA
@nexta_tv
·

The #EU plans to train up to 15,000 #Ukrainian servicemen as part of a special training mission - Der Spiegel, citing sources

[Ozyhibby]

In every conflict Ive ever followed in the news, ‘Peace talks’ have been invariably seen as a good thing. I don’t remember it ever been discussed much on here by anyone, but why is ‘Calling for peace talks’ now a bad thing? Sounds like you want the hell to drag on for as long as possible. Peace talks don’t automatically mean the Ukrainians have to give up x or y, you don’t like it, the Russians aren’t acting in good faith, you walk away from the talks. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on whether it should happen, I just think it’s interesting you automatically think of them as a negative?

Putin has broken previous agreements. Ukraine can’t negotiate with him.


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[hibsbollah]

Ukraine can’t negotiate with him.


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Oh really? Well that’s that then. The only solution is endless war. I’m sure I’ve read on here none of Russias 10,000 nuclear warheads work so there’s no danger of nuclear apocalypse like everyone used to think there was.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh really? Well that’s that then. The only solution is endless war. I’m sure I’ve read on here none of Russias 10,000 nuclear warheads work so there’s no danger of nuclear apocalypse like everyone used to think there was.

Ukraine can negotiate with his successor. Nobody serious is putting forward proposals for peace talks because the two sides are so far apart. Putin wants Ukrainian land and Ukraine won’t give it. Until Putin agrees to leave them there is no point in talks.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Putin had talks with all the Western leaders pre war and said no way was he invading... They tried talks in Russia and they were a sham, Putins starting point was annexation and a land bridge. Whilst these talks were happening Bucha and lyman massacres were happening and Mariupol was being flattened.

Ukraine starts to regain land at speed with unfortunately massive losses to the invaders and they have to have talks again.

If England invaded us raped and murdered us flattened Perth to the ground, mass graves found in Falkirk. If someone said just talk to them, all they want is Strathclyde and some of Lothian. Fighting back is just causing bloodshed

[hibsbollah]

Ukraine can negotiate with his successor. Nobody serious is putting forward proposals for peace talks because the two sides are so far apart. Putin wants Ukrainian land and Ukraine won’t give it. Until Putin agrees to leave them there is no point in talks.


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Do you think Ukraine and Russia are unique in world history? Peace talks can take place between two parties that have no trust and are sworn enemies. It happens all the time. But in this conflict it’s off the table. Almost like stopping it isn’t part of the plan.

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you think Ukraine and Russia are unique in world history? Peace talks can take place between two parties that have no trust and are sworn enemies. It happens all the time. But in this conflict it’s off the table. Almost like stopping it isn’t part of the plan.

It was on the table until Russia gave silly ultimatums. Zelensky said any deal will need a referendum, polls are almost unanimous for not giving concessions when it comes to land.

Ukraine would be mental to go for a deal when Russia is capitulating. The plan is Russians back in Russia, then they will talk. Seems reasonable. Especially at this rate of Russian retreat

[Ozyhibby]

It was on the table until Russia gave silly ultimatums. Zelensky said any deal will need a referendum, polls are almost unanimous for not giving concessions when it comes to land.

Ukraine would be mental to go for a deal when Russia is capitulating. The plan is Russians back in Russia, then they will talk. Seems reasonable. Especially at this rate of Russian retreat

Amazing how many are suggesting talks now.


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[makaveli1875]

Do you think Ukraine and Russia are unique in world history? Peace talks can take place between two parties that have no trust and are sworn enemies. It happens all the time. But in this conflict it’s off the table. Almost like stopping it isn’t part of the plan.

If Ukraine stop fighting their country is going to be history . If Russia stop fighting then the war is over

[hibsbollah]

If Ukraine stop fighting their country is going to be history . If Russia stop fighting then the war is over

First sentence definitely correct, second sentence probably. Not sure it’s relevant to why peace talks are a bad thing.

[hibsbollah]

Amazing how many are suggesting talks now.


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They really aren’t.

[Ozyhibby]

First sentence definitely correct, second sentence probably. Not sure it’s relevant to why peace talks are a bad thing.

Peace talks are not a bad thing but in this case, nobody trusts Putin.
And Russia are losing badly. The Allies would not have considered peace talks with Hitler after D-day. It was already known that you could not trust him.


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[Stairway 2 7]

First sentence definitely correct, second sentence probably. Not sure it’s relevant to why peace talks are a bad thing.

Your refusing to listen to others opinions. 1. they had talks Russias starting point was annexation of land 2. Ukrainians wouldn't allow it especially after Bucha, lyman, Mariupol. 3 why would they have talks now when they are smashing Russia up and down the front. The backing for Ukraine will completely stop when the Russians are back over the border.

[makaveli1875]

First sentence definitely correct, second sentence probably. Not sure it’s relevant to why peace talks are a bad thing.

They’re not a bad thing , they’re meaningless with Putin though , peace talks to him are a chance to rearm , then re-start the destruction when he’s ready to go again

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/bravo-navalny-for-clarifying-your-position-on-ukraine-and-the-west.html

Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who is serving a nine-year sentence in a maximum-security penal colony, has finally elaborated his position on the Putin regime, its imperialistic war against Ukraine, and what needs to be done. He has set out his views in an essay published on Sep. 30 in the Washington Post.

Navalny has often been accused of being a Russian imperialist himself and failing to condemn more forcefully Putin’s aggression against Ukraine, annexation of its territory and denial of its right to exist as a sovereign state with its distinct Ukrainian nation.

But now, while sharing his thoughts on the need to democratize Russia and transform it into a parliamentary republic, he has spoken out very clearly on the key questions concerning Ukraine and relations with the West.

“The issue of postwar Russia should become the central issue — and not just one element among others — of those who are striving for peace,” he writes. “No long-term goals can be achieved without a plan” to ensure that “Russia must cease to be an instigator of aggression and instability.”

To his credit, Navalny candidly acknowledges the central role of Ukraine in this regard and the critical need to change the prevalent Russian attitudes towards it.


Bravo Navalny for Clarifying Your Position on Ukraine and the West
EXCLUSIVE OP-ED
Bravo Navalny for Clarifying Your Position on Ukraine and the West
By Bohdan Nahaylo. Published Oct. 2 at 1:14 pm

Alexei Navalny appears on a screen set up at a courtroom of the Moscow City Court via a video link from his penal colony on May 24. (Alexander Zemlianichenko/AP)
Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who is serving a nine-year sentence in a maximum-security penal colony, has finally elaborated his position on the Putin regime, its imperialistic war against Ukraine, and what needs to be done. He has set out his views in an essay published on Sep. 30 in the Washington Post.

Navalny has often been accused of being a Russian imperialist himself and failing to condemn more forcefully Putin’s aggression against Ukraine, annexation of its territory and denial of its right to exist as a sovereign state with its distinct Ukrainian nation.

But now, while sharing his thoughts on the need to democratize Russia and transform it into a parliamentary republic, he has spoken out very clearly on the key questions concerning Ukraine and relations with the West.

“The issue of postwar Russia should become the central issue — and not just one element among others — of those who are striving for peace,” he writes. “No long-term goals can be achieved without a plan” to ensure that “Russia must cease to be an instigator of aggression and instability.”

To his credit, Navalny candidly acknowledges the central role of Ukraine in this regard and the critical need to change the prevalent Russian attitudes towards it.


“Jealousy of Ukraine and its possible successes is an innate feature of post-Soviet power in Russia; it was also characteristic of the first Russian president, Boris Yeltsin. But since the beginning of Putin’s rule, and especially after the Orange Revolution that began in 2004, hatred of Ukraine’s European choice, and the desire to turn it into a failed state, have become a lasting obsession not only for Putin but also for all politicians of his generation,” Navalny stresses.

He goes even further, acknowledging that “Control over Ukraine is the most important article of faith for all Russians with imperial views, from officials to ordinary people. In their opinion, Russia combined with a subordinate Ukraine amounts to a ‘reborn U.S.S.R. and empire.’ Without Ukraine, in this view, Russia is just a country with no chance of world domination. Everything that Ukraine acquires is something taken away from Russia.”

Russia’s war against Ukraine, Navalny continues, has raised “Putin’s approval rating by super-mobilizing the imperially minded part of society. The news agenda is fully consumed by the war; internal problems recede into the background: ‘Hurray, we’re back in the game, we are great, they’re reckoning with us!’”







The Russian oppositionist realizes that “The war with Ukraine was started and waged, of course, by Putin, trying to solve his domestic political problems.” But here he makes an important point: “the real war party is the entire elite and the system of power itself, which is an endlessly self-reproducing Russian authoritarianism of the imperial kind. External aggression in any form, from diplomatic rhetoric to outright warfare, is its preferred mode of operation, and Ukraine is its preferred target.”

Russia’s “self-generated imperial authoritarianism is the real curse of Russia and the cause of all its troubles,” he concludes.

Navalny ends his unexpectedly forthright and penetrating thoughts about the dangerous perennial Russian malaise and how it should be treated with the following advice and prescription:

“While I commend European leaders for their ongoing success in supporting Ukraine, I urge them not to lose sight of the fundamental causes of war. The threat to peace and stability in Europe is aggressive imperial authoritarianism, endlessly inflicted by Russia upon itself…. Only a parliamentary republic can prevent this. It is the first step toward transforming Russia into a good neighbor that helps to solve problems rather than create them.”

[AgentDaleCooper]

Your refusing to listen to others opinions. 1. they had talks Russias starting point was annexation of land 2. Ukrainians wouldn't allow it especially after Bucha, lyman, Mariupol. 3 why would they have talks now when they are smashing Russia up and down the front. The backing for Ukraine will completely stop when the Russians are back over the border.

so are you, very explicitly.

IMO it boils down to two different elements, the individual (Putin/Zelenski/Biden/each member of the public), and the national/super-national/power-bloc or however one wants to define it.

On the individual level, Putin is 100% to blame for this war. It has been his conscious decision to start it, and he could have chosen not to.

this isn't the whole story though. The west has done a huge amount to lay the foundations for this. NATO isn't the sole cause, but it's a significant factor. It's massively multi-faceted, but power-blocs act in aggressive self interest when they feel under the slightest threat, and this is no different to the Munroe Doctrine in South America. That isn't a justification - if anything, it's an indictment - but it's also how Western countries work, so it's astonishingly stupid that they expect other countries not to do so.

The reason I shared the video is not because I think the whole thing is the west's fault - although the video is titled exactly that, I don't fully agree with that interpretation - it does, however, shed a huge amount of light on what has essentially caused this situation to be possible.

The reason I shared the video is that I think Western liberals who can't see how inevitable conflict such as this are are, in the long run, going to get us all killed with their moralistic hubris.

Sorry to bring it to this level, but we all know that although Hitler was 100% responsible for his actions, the Allies prepared the ground for someone like him to come to power. If he had had nukes, we wouldn't be here.

p.s. - If you'd be able to point out what it is that Mearsheimer has to 'shoehorn' to fit with his views, I'd genuinely be very interested to know. Not being a smart **** here - I'd actually be delighted to find out that he's wrong, as his predictions are pretty grim and as far as I can see, pretty accurate.

[StevieC]

Oh really? Well that’s that then. The only solution is endless war.

Not endless, just until Russian troops are back over the border and Crimea is back under the control of Ukraine.

[Ozyhibby]

Not endless, just until Russian troops are back over the border and Crimea is back under the control of Ukraine.

Should be done by next spring.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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[WhileTheChief..]

In every conflict Ive ever followed in the news, ‘Peace talks’ have been invariably seen as a good thing. I don’t remember it ever been discussed much on here by anyone, but why is ‘Calling for peace talks’ now a bad thing? Sounds like you want the hell to drag on for as long as possible. Peace talks don’t automatically mean the Ukrainians have to give up x or y, you don’t like it, the Russians aren’t acting in good faith, you walk away from the talks. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on whether it should happen, I just think it’s interesting you automatically think of them as a negative?

There can’t be any talks with Putin, it needs to be with his successor.

Even then, UKR have been entirely clear that they want 100% of their territory back. There’s not really much room for discussion on that point by the sounds of it.

Russia need to withdraw completely and there then needs to be consequences for their actions.

[WhileTheChief..]

Navalny is excellent. Gives a bit of hope to a more normal Russian future.

[hibsbollah]

There can’t be any talks with Putin, it needs to be with his successor.

Even then, UKR have been entirely clear that they want 100% of their territory back. There’s not really much room for discussion on that point by the sounds of it.

Russia need to withdraw completely and there then needs to be consequences for their actions.

It’s generally diplomats that do the actual talking, Putin will not be involved directly. If you refuse to talk to the Putin regime, you will literally be at war until Putin dies in office. That policy wouldn’t make sense.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s generally diplomats that do the actual talking, Putin will not be involved directly. If you refuse to talk to the Putin regime, you will literally be at war until Putin dies in office. That policy wouldn’t make sense.

Or his army collapses on the battlefield.


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[Smartie]

It’s generally diplomats that do the actual talking, Putin will not be involved directly. If you refuse to talk to the Putin regime, you will literally be at war until Putin dies in office. That policy wouldn’t make sense.

Do you really see any way to a negotiating table with the Putin regime though?

I don’t disagree that at some point there needs to be dialogue but it was he who crossed the line of invading a sovereign nation for the first time in Europe since WW2. He was well warned that such an action would lead to Russia becoming a pariah state - and I think that’s a threat that needs to be followed through.

Obviously the nature of talks and when they occur will be down to the Ukrainians but I just can’t see how they can be possible for some time yet?

Right now I can’t see meaningful talks happening until there is a significant shift in the dynamic of the war and right now the momentum is with the Ukrainians.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/euromaidanpress/status/1576002705146920962?s=46&t=Jz8fBDP7K80PVWNF2FjrBA
Really interesting video on Ukrainian counter attacking forces.


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[Stairway 2 7]

so are you, very explicitly.

IMO it boils down to two different elements, the individual (Putin/Zelenski/Biden/each member of the public), and the national/super-national/power-bloc or however one wants to define it.

On the individual level, Putin is 100% to blame for this war. It has been his conscious decision to start it, and he could have chosen not to.

this isn't the whole story though. The west has done a huge amount to lay the foundations for this. NATO isn't the sole cause, but it's a significant factor. It's massively multi-faceted, but power-blocs act in aggressive self interest when they feel under the slightest threat, and this is no different to the Munroe Doctrine in South America. That isn't a justification - if anything, it's an indictment - but it's also how Western countries work, so it's astonishingly stupid that they expect other countries not to do so.

The reason I shared the video is not because I think the whole thing is the west's fault - although the video is titled exactly that, I don't fully agree with that interpretation - it does, however, shed a huge amount of light on what has essentially caused this situation to be possible.

The reason I shared the video is that I think Western liberals who can't see how inevitable conflict such as this are are, in the long run, going to get us all killed with their moralistic hubris.

Sorry to bring it to this level, but we all know that although Hitler was 100% responsible for his actions, the Allies prepared the ground for someone like him to come to power. If he had had nukes, we wouldn't be here.

p.s. - If you'd be able to point out what it is that Mearsheimer has to 'shoehorn' to fit with his views, I'd genuinely be very interested to know. Not being a smart **** here - I'd actually be delighted to find out that he's wrong, as his predictions are pretty grim and as far as I can see, pretty accurate.

I mean that this war has been shoehorned into meet his opinions. For over 30 years has said there will be a major east west war. To be honest he's mainly went on about a China US war. There's been tensions all the time he's been saying it but still no world ending event.

His main opinion is that nato is a huge reason for the war. Zelensky offered a deal pre war never to join but they didn't care they wanted Ukraine "back". They aren't bothered at all that Finland on its border is joining, as its not about nato it's about getting the Soviet Union back

My question and not to him, those using it as proof of cause is this war is exactly the same as the Georgia and Chechnya playbook. So why are they seen as Russian expansion and not to do with the West, but Ukraine is

I'm not a us cheerleader, they are vile. They have caused 500,000 deaths in Iraq alone. Adding this war to their list of hundreds caused would be like Adding 1 body to a serial killer who murdered 50 already.

His is one opinion, just like putins puppet pozner. Navalny puts it squarely on Russia but he is just one opinion also I suppose.

There's lots of articles saying why they believe Mearsheimer is wrong. It's all about opinions.
https://www.duckofminerva.com/2022/08/walt-mearsheimer-security-dilemma.html

I'm more interested in the actual battlefield. Thankfully although we were called nieve to think Ukraine could win, I'm actually very optimistic they will now

[Stairway 2 7]

Not everyone says the annexation is illegal

nexta_tv
·
#NorthKorea supports the #Russian government's decision to annex four #Ukrainian territories, reports the Korean Central News Agency

[Stairway 2 7]

Mike Martin war studies fellow at King's Cross has been remarkably spot on in his predictions in the last 2 months. His amazing crayon diagrams have been seen on ny times.

He's just put his thread on how he sees the war ending in Ukrainian victory. So we can be seen as pro Ukrainian wishful thinking on this thread. But with Martin and Philips OBrien professor of strategic studies at the University of St Andrews, now saying its a matter of time then we are in good company.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1577033853180387328
@ThreshedThought
Ok. Here is how the war ends, I think.

A 🧵

[LeithMike]

Surprised at some of the posts on here. Yes, the West/NATO have got many things wrong in the past which has led to Russia being emboldened. This is clearly about empire building and territorial gains rather than security and is remarkably similar to Germany’s conquests in late 1930s. Some then (reasonably) thought Germany was within its rights due to post WWI settlement failing to realise what Hitler stood for. Putin stands for the same and while there may be some rationale for his move on Ukraine, it is not justified and has to be stopped.

Ukraine can’t be sacrificed in the same way Poland and Putin must be held to account for his awful crimes. Looking ahead, the west also needs to look at making its own leaders subject to the International Criminal Court and using the International Court of Justice to settle territorial disputes.

It is important that post-Putin Russia is brought back into the world in the same way West Germany and Japan were after WWII.


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[LeithMike]

We'll never know if Stalin's USSR could have been a brought into a functioning global community, in which the West could have reduced the exploitation of the dark-skinned and precariousness of labour and the East could have seen a promotion of liberty and democracy — I suspect not. However, it never got a chance.

I think we do. Stalin was a butcher and was not interested in becoming part of the global system. He just wanted to keep the countries they had “liberated” from Germany. The West effectively gave in and the abandonment of Poland by the allies is one of the greatest tragedies of WW II, albeit understandable given the inability to continue with war.

I really don’t understand how anyone could take this view when history has fully recorded just how brutal Stalin was.

It just shows you how tragic war really is and if anything the West is guilty of not learning lessons of the past and seeking to stop Putin in his tracks in 2014.


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[Stairway 2 7]

He's just going full on spouting nonsense now. Britain and the US are isolated in wanting to prolong the war. What about Ukraine do they not want to take there land back. What about Eastern Europe, what about the EU who is just sent another 5 billion. All g7 nations have sent heavy weapons. Poland has sent 1 billion in equipment. Eastern Europe has sent masses, neutral sweeden has sent heavy weapons. Of course they knew Ukraine would use this to regain their land. Europe has never been so united in conflict.

Why should Ukraine make a deal when it regained 2% of its land in 4 weeks and are breaking through everywhere

https://mobile.twitter.com/democracynow/status/1576972849394241540

@democracynow
·
Noam Chomsky says the U.S. and Britain are "pretty much isolated in their commitment to continuing the war" in Ukraine, with much of the rest of the world favoring a negotiated settlement to the conflict

[Hibs4185]

Surprised at some of the posts on here. Yes, the West/NATO have got many things wrong in the past which has led to Russia being emboldened. This is clearly about empire building and territorial gains rather than security and is remarkably similar to Germany’s conquests in late 1930s. Some then (reasonably) thought Germany was within its rights due to post WWI settlement failing to realise what Hitler stood for. Putin stands for the same and while there may be some rationale for his move on Ukraine, it is not justified and has to be stopped.

Ukraine can’t be sacrificed in the same way Poland and Putin must be held to account for his awful crimes. Looking ahead, the west also needs to look at making its own leaders subject to the International Criminal Court and using the International Court of Justice to settle territorial disputes.

It is important that post-Putin Russia is brought back into the world in the same way West Germany and Japan were after WWII.


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People who are hinting that the west are to blame for Putin’s invasion could be right and I understand their take on it.

However it is completely wrong. If it was about security and the Russian bear has been prodded to much over the years, how does that explain the forced abduction of kids and the killing of innocent civilians.

It is purely an evil act by one man to cement his legacy by the only means he knows how.

[The Tubs]

I think we do. Stalin was a butcher and was not interested in becoming part of the global system. He just wanted to keep the countries they had “liberated” from Germany. The West effectively gave in and the abandonment of Poland by the allies is one of the greatest tragedies of WW II, albeit understandable given the inability to continue with war.

I really don’t understand how anyone could take this view when history has fully recorded just how brutal Stalin was.

It just shows you how tragic war really is and if anything the West is guilty of not learning lessons of the past and seeking to stop Putin in his tracks in 2014.


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Roosevelt felt this was a possibility in 1944 and he got a lot right during his life.

We only really had confirmation about Stalin's crimes in 1956 from Khrushchev, who would probably have been keen on more integration as he understood the difficulties the Soviet economy had in delivering material comfort to its citizens.

Nevertheless, suspicions on both sides would probably have been too great at some point and a cold war would have started.

[Ozyhibby]

Russian collapse appears to be happening in Kherson.

https://twitter.com/kylejglen/status/1577280165377638400?s=46&t=xXjYTxVrlv0_c-MPAVAhvQ


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1577324136220839937?s=46&t=xXjYTxVrlv0_c-MPAVAhvQ


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