NO to reconstruction

[Phil MaGlass]

Same as all the teams told there’ll be no playoffs this season.
Thats the thing holding the lowland/Highland league down imo.
Should be another tier above Lowland/Highland.
A super conference league which is national maybe top 6 from both Leagues.
Then we’d get one winner. Expand the bottom league to 12 and one autopromote and one playoff from the new league.
Then they couldnt deny a Kelty promotion when this happens again.

Thats for the future though.

Any team with the name hearts or rangers in it can go do one.

[hibbyfraelibby]

I'm probably struggling most to understand why Hearts think they're being victimised somehow by relegation - plenty other sports have measures in place to score or provide results in the event of an accident/freak of nature

I'm ok with an expanded league, but one that splits in February could be very dangerous. Fans knowing that out of their 19 games will be highly likely to get 8 home games vs the "bigger" teams (Aberdeen, Celtic, Hearts and Rangers) so could result in lower demand for season tickets in a 14 team league model.

A straight 16 or 18 team with no split could be beneficial to clubs like us as we could potentially put in a title challenge every few years, and for the mid or lower table clubs could push for a European spot. But I appreciate our model is all about ensuring maximum exposure to Old Firm and the dependencies they bring financially.

Those of us brought up on an 18 team league know that particular arrangement almist destroyed suppoet for the game with a mirriad of meaningless games, normally Nil-Nil draws towards the 2nd half of the season. It sucked the life boood out of football. There were excellent reasons it was abandoned, along with shared gates.

[hibbyfraelibby]

[QUOTE=nonshinyfinish;6155251]Which leagues have it? I hadn't realised this setup even existed outside of SPFL what ifs.[/QUOT

Belgium do it. 16 team league, top 6 play further 10 games each to determine title and all but on Euro place. The 8 teams below form 2 mini leagues play 6 more games , winners play off and the winner of that plays off with the 5th place side in the top 6 for the final Euro place. Got it? The bottom 2 play off for the sole relegation spot,
The Danes might do something similar but they have a 14 team premier

And some thought the 12/12 (8/8/8) arrangement was complicated

[CB_NO3]

So, if in February we find ourselves 7th and assuming Celtic, Sevco, Aberdeen and Hearts are all in the top 6 we have no category A games left:

We have lost at least 3 sources of income from A games
No clear manner of working out season ticket prices
A product which may not appeal to Sky
The prospect of watching games with little or nothing to play for.

It's a big no from me.

Spot on

[PolmontHibby]

Those of us brought up on an 18 team league know that particular arrangement almist destroyed suppoet for the game with a mirriad of meaningless games, normally Nil-Nil draws towards the 2nd half of the season. It sucked the life boood out of football. There were excellent reasons it was abandoned, along with shared gates.

I am struggling to find any clear stats on league size for Scottish attendances and would be good to be pointed in the right direction.

If fitbastats to be believed Hibs average attendance seemed to go on a long term downward trend after 18 team league scrapped 1974/75 and it took the Scottish Cup win to get average crowds consistently above where we were for 1974/75 and the preceeding years. I am finding it hard to tell if league size made a difference or more to do with results.

Though in saying above completely different circumstances with crowds for some games being 30k 40k +, and if I remember correctly season tickets not really a big think back then and it was more a case of cash at the gate - different era and difficult to compare.

[Waxy]

Peterhead Forfar and Clyde say no to the 14-14-14 relegation they would suffer.

[007]

The Scottish Sun's sports editor said on Superscoreboard a few days ago there a lot of clubs who are happy to keep the 12-10-10-10 and that a lot of people believe it is the best structure Scottish football has ever had.

[Waxy]

The Scottish Sun's sports editor said on Superscoreboard a few days ago there a lot of clubs who are happy to keep the 12-10-10-10 and that a lot of people believe it is the best structure Scottish football has ever had.

It is. Its a keeper.
This seasons been a great watch.
Fighting for top six,the relegation battles then the playoffs at the seasons end.
Superb structure.It works for Scottish football perfectly.
Different countries suit different structures.
We have found ours.

[Greenworld]

Those of us brought up on an 18 team league know that particular arrangement almist destroyed suppoet for the game with a mirriad of meaningless games, normally Nil-Nil draws towards the 2nd half of the season. It sucked the life boood out of football. There were excellent reasons it was abandoned, along with shared gates.Was
Alex Miller our manager then

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[MWHIBBIES]

Those of us brought up on an 18 team league know that particular arrangement almist destroyed suppoet for the game with a mirriad of meaningless games, normally Nil-Nil draws towards the 2nd half of the season. It sucked the life boood out of football. There were excellent reasons it was abandoned, along with shared gates.

Surely if we had won all those games they wouldn't have been meaningless?

Like, do big teams who win titles see games as meaningless? Utter pish IMO. If you win every game you win the title, no such thing as a meaningless game.

[Onion]

Was
Alex Miller our manager then

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Nope. Eddie Turnbull era.

When they introduced the Prem league, it definitely played into the hands of "battling clubs" like Rangers and Hearts. Football became more industrial.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Was
Alex Miller our manager then

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No he was still a Rangers player

[hibbyfraelibby]

Surely if we had won all those games they wouldn't have been meaningless?

Like, do big teams who win titles see games as meaningless? Utter pish IMO. If you win every game you win the title, no such thing as a meaningless game.
If you weren't in the bottom 2 or the top 3 every game became meaningless. You had to be there to experience it. The utter p!sh is harking back to a failed model you never had to endure.

[MWHIBBIES]

If you weren't in the bottom 2 or the top 3 every game became meaningless. You had to be there to experience it. The utter p!sh is harking back to a failed model you never had to endure.

So basically the trick is to actually win all those meaningless games so you are top 3? or are they only meaningless if you massively fail in the first 3 quarters? That doesn't sound like an 18 team leagues fault.

[Alfred E Newman]

Nope. Eddie Turnbull era.

When they introduced the Prem league, it definitely played into the hands of "battling clubs" like Rangers and Hearts. Football became more industrial.

I'm pretty sure it was worked out that based on results in the 74/75 season we would have won the league under the new set up. As usual we dropped too many points to teams in the lower half of the league.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Any team with the name hearts or rangers in it can go do one.


and especially a club that employs a sectarian bigot like Bob "**** the pope" ****ing Malcolm 👎

[hibbyfraelibby]

So basically the trick is to actually win all those meaningless games so you are top 3? or are they only meaningless if you massively fail in the first 3 quarters? That doesn't sound like an 18 team leagues fault.

I'll ask again. Were you actually there, did you have to suffer the pointless fare dished up at many grounds in the 2nd half of the season?

There are currently no meaningless games in our current set up. You strive to be Top6 to try and win league or qualify for Europe. You have 50:50 chance of getting into Top6 and once there a minimum 50% or 67% chance of Euro qualification nothing meaningless in any match even whe theres a run away league winner.

Bottom 6 you battle to avoid bottom and relegation or 2nd bottom and the play off. 5 rounds of fixtures where maybes only one round meaningless.

The old system threw up 9 to 10 rounds of fixture where neither team had anything meaningful to play for and the turgid fare served up proved that.

[PH91]

So basically the trick is to actually win all those meaningless games so you are top 3? or are they only meaningless if you massively fail in the first 3 quarters? That doesn't sound like an 18 team leagues fault.

Every team can't win every game. So regardless of who is near the top or bottom of the league there will be a portion of teams in the middle who will have games in the second half of the season with very little to play for. Not meaningless as such but bad for enticing crowds to the game. That is a 'fault' in an 18 league system.

[660]

So basically the trick is to actually win all those meaningless games so you are top 3? or are they only meaningless if you massively fail in the first 3 quarters? That doesn't sound like an 18 team leagues fault.

Yeah we just need to make sure all 18 teams finish in the top 3 to ensure there’s no issue. Great post thanks for this

[007]

The current structure works well and we have managed to strike the most lucrative tv deal ever. Why gamble with it? And perhaps even more to the point, why put its fate in Ann Budge's hands, who is obviously only looking out for herself?

[nonshinyfinish]

The current structure works well and we have managed to strike the most lucrative tv deal ever. Why gamble with it? And perhaps even more to the point, why put its fate in Ann Budge's hands, who is obviously only looking out for herself?

Its fate is in the hands of the league clubs who will all vote on it. Budge is just the chump who's meant to come up with a proposal that enough clubs will vote for.

[Since90+2]

I'll ask again. Were you actually there, did you have to suffer the pointless fare dished up at many grounds in the 2nd half of the season?

There are currently no meaningless games in our current set up. You strive to be Top6 to try and win league or qualify for Europe. You have 50:50 chance of getting into Top6 and once there a minimum 50% or 67% chance of Euro qualification nothing meaningless in any match even whe theres a run away league winner.

Bottom 6 you battle to avoid bottom and relegation or 2nd bottom and the play off. 5 rounds of fixtures where maybes only one round meaningless.

The old system threw up 9 to 10 rounds of fixture where neither team had anything meaningful to play for and the turgid fare served up proved that.

Completely agree

[007]

Its fate is in the hands of the league clubs who will all vote on it. Budge is just the chump who's meant to come up with a proposal that enough clubs will vote for.

Fair enough, that's true. By running the task force she is trying to exert some influence, I wouldn't trust her to run a bath without ersing it up.

That said, I don't think she'll succeed.

[MWHIBBIES]

I'll ask again. Were you actually there, did you have to suffer the pointless fare dished up at many grounds in the 2nd half of the season?

There are currently no meaningless games in our current set up. You strive to be Top6 to try and win league or qualify for Europe. You have 50:50 chance of getting into Top6 and once there a minimum 50% or 67% chance of Euro qualification nothing meaningless in any match even whe theres a run away league winner.

Bottom 6 you battle to avoid bottom and relegation or 2nd bottom and the play off. 5 rounds of fixtures where maybes only one round meaningless.

The old system threw up 9 to 10 rounds of fixture where neither team had anything meaningful to play for and the turgid fare served up proved that.
You find me the league table that had Hibs 10 wins behind the top 3 and 10 wins ahead of relegation with 10 games to go.

[MWHIBBIES]

Yeah we just need to make sure all 18 teams finish in the top 3 to ensure there’s no issue. Great post thanks for this

So why not just have a 6 team league, 3 in Europe, 3 relegated? That way everyone wins a prize.

[weecounty hibby]

So why not just have a 6 team league, 3 in Europe, 3 relegated? That way everyone wins a prize.

You are being deliberately obtuse now and are in danger of ruining all of the good arguments you have had about reconstruction with this. I don't agree with a lot of what you have said previously but you at least made decent arguments. Now you are just saying silly stuff like the quoted post. I honestly believe that the set up we have just now is what works best for us in Scotland. Would it work in England? Probably not but then again a 29 team league like EPL wouldn't work here. Horses for courses and we are in decent shape at the moment. All except for the tarts who are now stabbing everyone they can to benefit themselves

[blackpoolhibs]

So why not just have a 6 team league, 3 in Europe, 3 relegated? That way everyone wins a prize.

I used to think i talked some sheite.

[Ozyhibby]

So why not just have a 6 team league, 3 in Europe, 3 relegated? That way everyone wins a prize.

The club can’t afford your idea no matter what it’s merits. We just don’t have the money and if it happened we would need to cut back on our playing squad.


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[weecounty hibby]

I used to think i talked some sheite.
I don't think you should change your mind on that! 😜

[MWHIBBIES]

The club can’t afford your idea no matter what it’s merits. We just don’t have the money and if it happened we would need to cut back on our playing squad.


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It's not my idea, im not proposing anything. Just that 10 rounds of meaningless games is utter nonsense. That has never happened.

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't think you should change your mind on that! 😜
:greengrin Anyone who lived through the 18 team will tell you the same, and with 3 points for a win it would be even worse.

[MWHIBBIES]

You are being deliberately obtuse now and are in danger of ruining all of the good arguments you have had about reconstruction with this. I don't agree with a lot of what you have said previously but you at least made decent arguments. Now you are just saying silly stuff like the quoted post. I honestly believe that the set up we have just now is what works best for us in Scotland. Would it work in England? Probably not but then again a 29 team league like EPL wouldn't work here. Horses for courses and we are in decent shape at the moment. All except for the tarts who are now stabbing everyone they can to benefit themselves

Mate I've had zero arguments about reconstruction :faf: dunno who you are thinking of.

I couldn't care less. Playing teams 4 times a season is utter nonsense though. Dunno how anyone can enjoy that.

[Smartie]

The Scottish Sun's sports editor said on Superscoreboard a few days ago there a lot of clubs who are happy to keep the 12-10-10-10 and that a lot of people believe it is the best structure Scottish football has ever had.


It is. Its a keeper.
This seasons been a great watch.
Fighting for top six,the relegation battles then the playoffs at the seasons end.
Superb structure.It works for Scottish football perfectly.
Different countries suit different structures.
We have found ours.

I agree. It's not often the Scottish football authorities come up with something which works but I think this does.

If anyone, ever, comes up with a better suggestion then we should change but I'm not convinced any more that it exists.

The only change I think I'd like to see would be an additional promotion/ relegation place from Championship to Premiership so there were 2 teams automatically promoted/ relegated in addition to the play off. It can be too tricky for a decent sized club being relegated to get back up, and you can end up with crap cannon fodder clubs scraping along the bottom of the Premier League, never going down. I think it would be better if clubs like Hibs, Hearts or Dundee United could bounce back a bit easier. They've all made mistakes which led to deserved relegations but I do think they're a bigger asset to the premier league than Hamilton Accies. I don't like to criticise them too much as they've done nothing wrong, they're a well run club who do the best they can with their resources but I don't think our game is enhanced by clubs who have crap plastic pitches and no fans being able to hang onto the coat tails of clubs above any more than they really have to. We were a very decent team trapped in the Championship for a few years and we need our best teams in the top league, the current system works against that imo. I prefer saying that from a self-interest position of being a Premier League club whose chances of relegation would increase than a bitter Championship one. Hearts wouldn't need to kick off the way they are, they wouldn't need to make rash signings of the likes of Boyce if there was a better chance of them being able to bounce back up. There is a decent chance that the current structure could lead to Scotland losing a decent-sized but poorly run club, a bit like Hearts are at the minute and we have the potential to be under the wrong leadership.

[Ozyhibby]

Mate I've had zero arguments about reconstruction :faf: dunno who you are thinking of.

I couldn't care less. Playing teams 4 times a season is utter nonsense though. Dunno how anyone can enjoy that.

The only way to get away from that and not lose money is to merge with other leagues. Anything within Scotland is unaffordable to Hibs.


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[Gloucester Hibs]

I agree. It's not often the Scottish football authorities come up with something which works but I think this does.

If anyone, ever, comes up with a better suggestion then we should change but I'm not convinced any more that it exists.

The only change I think I'd like to see would be an additional promotion/ relegation place from Championship to Premiership so there were 2 teams automatically promoted/ relegated in addition to the play off. It can be too tricky for a decent sized club being relegated to get back up, and you can end up with crap cannon fodder clubs scraping along the bottom of the Premier League, never going down. I think it would be better if clubs like Hibs, Hearts or Dundee United could bounce back a bit easier. They've all made mistakes which led to deserved relegations but I do think they're a bigger asset to the premier league than Hamilton Accies. I don't like to criticise them too much as they've done nothing wrong, they're a well run club who do the best they can with their resources but I don't think our game is enhanced by clubs who have crap plastic pitches and no fans being able to hang onto the coat tails of clubs above any more than they really have to. We were a very decent team trapped in the Championship for a few years and we need our best teams in the top league, the current system works against that imo. I prefer saying that from a self-interest position of being a Premier League club whose chances of relegation would increase than a bitter Championship one. Hearts wouldn't need to kick off the way they are, they wouldn't need to make rash signings of the likes of Boyce if there was a better chance of them being able to bounce back up. There is a decent chance that the current structure could lead to Scotland losing a decent-sized but poorly run club, a bit like Hearts are at the minute and we have the potential to be under the wrong leadership.

Good post. I'd be up for this. Maybe introducing something like this would stop Hearts whinging (I know, I know, wishful thinking)?

[Inconsequential]

The main problem with the Scottish Premiership is the sides meet in theory four times a season. This suits Celtic and The Rangers as they can lose maybe one of the four but probably win the other three. Therefore only a 25% failure rate against the other sides and doesn't really affect them too much. The other sides are capable of beating each other so cancel each other out. If it was a home and away scenario the failure rate would be 50%. Of course the economics come into it too in playing 4 times a season. I don't know what the answer is but the current set up is a bit weird with the top six split, uneven number of games etc. imo.

[MWHIBBIES]

The only way to get away from that and not lose money is to merge with other leagues. Anything within Scotland is unaffordable to Hibs.


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Sorry, why is it unaffordable, because of 2 less OF games and 1 less against Hearts? So our club goes bust without 3 CAT A home games? Does the club know this? How we were signing guys like Stokes, Ambrose, McGinn, Fyvie, McGeouch in the championship without Celtic, only 1 year of Hearts, much less prize money and tv money?

I'm not suggesting 18 teams but jesus, anything must be more exiting than the current *****. 16 and playoffs, 14 and split earlier. Something actually original and forward thinking and people in charge who actually can take the game forward (and hopefully they don't use impossible and unaffordable as much as you seem to)

[Ozyhibby]

Sorry, why is it unaffordable, because of 2 less OF games and 1 less against Hearts? So our club goes bust without 3 CAT A home games? Does the club know this? How we were signing guys like Stokes, Ambrose, McGinn, Fyvie, McGeouch in the championship without Celtic, only 1 year of Hearts, much less prize money and tv money?

I'm not suggesting 18 teams but jesus, anything must be more exiting than the current *****. 16 and playoffs, 14 and split earlier. Something actually original and forward thinking and people in charge who actually can take the game forward (and hopefully they don't use impossible and unaffordable as much as you seem to)

We were losing money in the championship. Our attendances were terrible until the cup win. If we hadn’t won the cup there would have been significant cut backs that summer.


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[MWHIBBIES]

We were losing money in the championship. Our attendances were terrible until the cup win. If we hadn’t won the cup there would have been significant cut backs that summer.


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Ah, so it's only unaffordable if our crowds are crap and we had poor cup runs? Is it unaffordable if we sell 14k season tickets and get to 2 semi finals (like this season)

[CapitalGreen]

Sorry, why is it unaffordable, because of 2 less OF games and 1 less against Hearts? So our club goes bust without 3 CAT A home games? Does the club know this? How we were signing guys like Stokes, Ambrose, McGinn, Fyvie, McGeouch in the championship without Celtic, only 1 year of Hearts, much less prize money and tv money?

I'm not suggesting 18 teams but jesus, anything must be more exiting than the current *****. 16 and playoffs, 14 and split earlier. Something actually original and forward thinking and people in charge who actually can take the game forward (and hopefully they don't use impossible and unaffordable as much as you seem to)

I like the current set up.

[MWHIBBIES]

I like the current set up.

That is fair enough. I really don't love playing Kilmarnock and motherwell 4 times. Best part of this season has been Scottish cup ties Vs lower league sides.

[hibbyfraelibby]

You find me the league table that had Hibs 10 wins behind the top 3 and 10 wins ahead of relegation with 10 games to go.

I dont need to. I'll ask you again. Were
You there? Did you suffer the turgid fare? Its obvious you dont, nor do you appreciate the game changer 3pt fir a win was...brought on because of the turgid rubbish but feel free to bang on about about 18 team leagues with a 30% chance of any game having anything meaningful to offer.

[Eyrie]

The main problem with the Scottish Premiership is the sides meet in theory four times a season. This suits Celtic and The Rangers as they can lose maybe one of the four but probably win the other three. Therefore only a 25% failure rate against the other sides and doesn't really affect them too much. The other sides are capable of beating each other so cancel each other out. If it was a home and away scenario the failure rate would be 50%. Of course the economics come into it too in playing 4 times a season. I don't know what the answer is but the current set up is a bit weird with the top six split, uneven number of games etc. imo.

The counter argument is that Hibs, Aberdeen or this season's Motherwell are more likely to drop points against the teams in the bottom half of a top 18 than Celtc or Sevco with their deeper squads, so we wouldn't see anyone else winning the title.

Agree though that the current set up is weird and unsatisfactory.

[Ozyhibby]

Ah, so it's only unaffordable if our crowds are crap and we had poor cup runs? Is it unaffordable if we sell 14k season tickets and get to 2 semi finals (like this season)

Cat A games sell more tickets at higher prices and also sell a lot more corporate seats. We also charge more for commercial advertising. These are the big earners for Hibs. You want us to have less of these games and swap it for games v Inverness?
That would mean a cut to our playing budget. We are never going to vote for that and neither are the other clubs our size like Aberdeen. Hearts wouldn’t either if it wasn’t for the fact they face an even bigger threat to their income.
It’s not going to happen but you can keep believing if you like.


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[Ozyhibby]

That is fair enough. I really don't love playing Kilmarnock and motherwell 4 times. Best part of this season has been Scottish cup ties Vs lower league sides.

And yet the crowds for those amazing games v lower league opposition were lower than the games v Motherwell and Kilmarnock. So the fans don’t agree those were the best part of the season.


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[Eyrie]

That is fair enough. I really don't love playing Kilmarnock and motherwell 4 times. Best part of this season has been Scottish cup ties Vs lower league sides.

I only see us play Kilmarnock and Motherwell twice a season unless an away game is on the TV.

Replacing them with Ayr and Inverness isn't going to result in a more entertaining game to watch.

[MWHIBBIES]

I dont need to. I'll ask you again. Were
You there? Did you suffer the turgid fare? Its obvious you dont, nor do you appreciate the game changer 3pt fir a win was...brought on because of the turgid rubbish but feel free to bang on about about 18 team leagues with a 30% chance of any game having anything meaningful to offer.

Right so you don't need to back up your points with any fans whatsoever because you were there. So basically it didn't happen but because I wasn't there you are right :faf:

I guarantee you every team had something to play for with 10 games to go.

[MWHIBBIES]

And yet the crowds for those amazing games v lower league opposition were lower than the games v Motherwell and Kilmarnock. So the fans don’t agree those were the best part of the season.


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Yeah, that was nothing to do with them being night games not on the season ticket :faf:

[hibbyfraelibby]

Right so you don't need to back up your points with any fans whatsoever because you were there. So basically it didn't happen but because I wasn't there you are right :faf:

I guarantee you every team had something to play for with 10 games to go.


Tell you what prove YOUR point. Go to season 1973/74 and take a look. Pretty good season for Hibs but then take a look at the middle of the league 9 clubs averaging about a single point a game.

If you haven't experienced something you are proposing a return to but want to talk it up fine. Its like a guy with COVID19 harking back to the good old days of rickets and diptheria with a dose of smallpox thrown in for good measure.

[MWHIBBIES]

Cat A games sell more tickets at higher prices and also sell a lot more corporate seats. We also charge more for commercial advertising. These are the big earners for Hibs. You want us to have less of these games and swap it for games v Inverness?
That would mean a cut to our playing budget. We are never going to vote for that and neither are the other clubs our size like Aberdeen. Hearts wouldn’t either if it wasn’t for the fact they face an even bigger threat to their income.
It’s not going to happen but you can keep believing if you like.


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I don't believe, I'm not actually some huge fan of it. 4 league games against eachother a season is utter diddy stuff. That's a fact. It may make us more money but it's actually just grim. Especially when it's 4 pumpings from the of.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't believe, I'm not actually some huge fan of it. 4 league games against eachother a season is utter diddy stuff. That's a fact. It may make us more money but it's actually just grim. Especially when it's 4 pumpings from the of.

A fact? Really?


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[MWHIBBIES]

Tell you what prove YOUR point. Go to season 1973/74 and take a look. Pretty good season for Hibs but then take a look at the middle of the league 9 clubs averaging about a single point a game.

If you haven't experienced something you are proposing a return to but want to talk it up fine. Its like a guy with COVID19 harking back to the good old days of rickets and diptheria with a dose of smallpox thrown in for good measure.
Right but when you take 3 points for a win I guarantee you have a much closer situation. Still waiting on this league that is over with 10 games to go.

It's nothing like your daft scenario there but well done.

[greenpaper55]

Back in the day of the 18 team league the teams near the bottom and by the way we were one of them a few times were very average to say the least but as i have mentioned before teams are so much better organised nowadays and there are literally no easy games.

[CapitalGreen]

That is fair enough. I really don't love playing Kilmarnock and motherwell 4 times. Best part of this season has been Scottish cup ties Vs lower league sides.

The novelty of playing these lower league teams would wear off once we’re playing them twice a season. An 18 team league is essentially proposing that these games:

Hibs v Rangers
Hibs v Celtic
Hibs v Hearts
Hibs v Aberdeen

are replaced with these:

Hibs v Arbroath
Hibs v Ayr
Hibs v Inverness
Hibs v Dunfermline

No thanks.

[Joe6-2]

I like the current set up.

I didn’t think I did, until reconstruction reared it’s head, but after reading the many arguments for and against, I think it’s the best we can do

[MWHIBBIES]

The novelty of playing these lower league teams would wear off once we’re playing them twice a season. An 18 team league is essentially proposing that these games:

Hibs v Rangers
Hibs v Celtic
Hibs v Hearts
Hibs v Aberdeen

are replaced with these:

Hibs v Arbroath
Hibs v Ayr
Hibs v Inverness
Hibs v Dunfermline

No thanks.

I don't think it would. It did in the championship because it was 4 times a season. I think it would be a better mix and make the real big games feel like real big games.

[chippy]

I dont need to. I'll ask you again. Were
You there? Did you suffer the turgid fare? Its obvious you dont, nor do you appreciate the game changer 3pt fir a win was...brought on because of the turgid rubbish but feel free to bang on about about 18 team leagues with a 30% chance of any game having anything meaningful to offer.

You mean that turgid 18 team league that produced Hibs best ever teams, loads of players sold to English clubs. The one we won 4 times. The league that produced some great teams and players in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Loads of talented players that never go capped who would walk into the Scotland squad now. Clubs like Clyde, Dundee, Dunfermline , Patrick , etc who produced quality players and teams. I never bought the turgid theory. Seem to recall the best ever Scottish team won the title 9 times in a row with every player Scottish. That seemed to be the driver for the original premier league along with short sighted greed by the big clubs. Sure I know there are other reasons that Scottish football isn’t as strong as it was due to competition from other sports and interests. But Eddie Turnbull hated the small leagues as they only had a top and bottom with no middle. Middle ranked teams could blood even more youngsters when they were safe from relegation. I think larger leagues 14, 16, 18 would enable clubs to reset budgets, reduce the number of players from overseas and England and blood more young Scots players earlier and for more prolonged periods. Thereby finding who can cut it and maximising the Scottish player market

[weecounty hibby]

Mate I've had zero arguments about reconstruction :faf: dunno who you are thinking of.

I couldn't care less. Playing teams 4 times a season is utter nonsense though. Dunno how anyone can enjoy that.
Ok, maybe wasn't you who was advocating reconstruction that actually had a decent discussion about it. Àll you have done is argue for something that has been shown by folk who lived through it to be not as good as we have now. Then when that was put to you by others you then started talking utter mince about a 6 team league with 3 euro places and 3 relegated. Again, apologies for mixing you up with someone who had some decent points
And as for folk enjoying what we have, well I guess the record STs and highest average attendance for decades shows that some find it a decent product

[chippy]

The novelty of playing these lower league teams would wear off once we’re playing them twice a season. An 18 team league is essentially proposing that these games:

Hibs v Rangers
Hibs v Celtic
Hibs v Hearts
Hibs v Aberdeen

are replaced with these:

Hibs v Arbroath
Hibs v Ayr
Hibs v Inverness
Hibs v Dunfermline

No thanks.

Good point but this season we have 6 points from a possible 24 (8 games) in the top group, meaning we are roughly level with Hearts and Dons, but 18 points behind the old firm.
Whereas I’d expect us and Hearts and Dons to take 16-24 points from the bottom group of games keeping us all close to the old firm

[Ozyhibby]

Good point but this season we have 6 points from a possible 24 (8 games) in the top group, meaning we are roughly level with Hearts and Dons, but 18 points behind the old firm.
Whereas I’d expect us and Hearts and Dons to take 16-24 points from the bottom group of games keeping us all close to the old firm

On this point I agree. A bigger league gives more chance of a team outside the old firm a chance of winning it.
It won’t happen for financial reasons though.


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[StevesFamau5]

I honestly don't think the reconstruction will happen.

The ugly sisters are the deciding factor. They have a minimum of 4 televised games a year generating X amount of money from Sky and advertising deals, add in the rivalry with us, Hertz and the Sheep with at least a few of those televised there's no room for only 2 games a season and 3 is highly unlikely as if results are dodgy then it will be seen as biased or something by the losing ugly sister.

That's why the league will remain the same, why would the SPFL want to change the only major cash cow to suit anyone else? Who outside of Scotland and to an extent some parts of the UK would be fulfilled by a Sunday lunchtime clash between Dundee Utd and Motherwell? or the clash of the titans, Kilmarnock v St Johnstone? Just think of the revenue generated by these titanic clashes.

Sky Sports Football channel has shown a Ugly Sisters highlight clash pretty much every day since lockdown began showing just how important they are to Sky.

It's not going to happen....




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[B.H.F.C]

Good point but this season we have 6 points from a possible 24 (8 games) in the top group, meaning we are roughly level with Hearts and Dons, but 18 points behind the old firm.
Whereas I’d expect us and Hearts and Dons to take 16-24 points from the bottom group of games keeping us all close to the old firm

We’d probably end up further away from the Old Firm in a big league.

More teams for them (particularly Celtic) to batter. More teams for us to drop points against. Even this season we’ve chucked in a number of draws against lower league teams in the cups (I know we went on to beat Stirling on pens and Morton in ET). They wouldn’t drop points with the frequency we would.

[Sammy7nil]

Ah, so it's only unaffordable if our crowds are crap and we had poor cup runs? Is it unaffordable if we sell 14k season tickets and get to 2 semi finals (like this season)

I would give up while you are behind :aok:

[CapitalGreen]

Good point but this season we have 6 points from a possible 24 (8 games) in the top group, meaning we are roughly level with Hearts and Dons, but 18 points behind the old firm.
Whereas I’d expect us and Hearts and Dons to take 16-24 points from the bottom group of games keeping us all close to the old firm

if our team isn’t getting enough points I’d rather we worked on improving our squad to get better results rather than dilute the standard of the opposition and ultimately the product we pay to watch.

[chippy]

if our team isn’t getting enough points I’d rather we worked on improving our squad to get better results rather than dilute the standard of the opposition and ultimately the product we pay to watch.

Easy for you to say but Big bucks to compete on an equal footing with Celtic and Rangers. Where’s that money coming from?

[Steve20]

No one was talking about a 14 team league before all this. It’s a nonsense. Yes, it’ll get voted in but the league will be all the worse for it.

I’m also shocked on the other thread that the poll shows 36 Hibs fans that are hoping Hearts stay in the league. They obviously never lived through the Mercer attempt, or even been in the company of a Jambo since they overspent with money they didn’t have to win a cup at our expense.

Send them down

[chippy]

No one was talking about a 14 team league before all this. It’s a nonsense. Yes, it’ll get voted in but the league will be all the worse for it.

I’m also shocked on the other thread that the poll shows that many Hibs fans that are hoping Hearts stay in the league. They obviously never lived through the Mercer attempt, or even been in the company of a Jambo since they overspent with money they didn’t have to win a cup at our expense.

Send them down

So sorry your so shocked that many Hibs fans might disagree with you and consider league expansion is a worthy goal rather than prioritise some notion of revenge against Hearts. I lived through the Mercer era

[CapitalGreen]

Easy for you to say but Big bucks to compete on an equal footing with Celtic and Rangers. Where’s that money coming from?

Hate to break it to you but increasing the league to 18 teams won’t make us competitive with the old firm. This season after each team had played each other twice there was an 18 point gap between the old firm and 3rd place - adding 6 mid-table championship teams into the mix isn’t going to decrease that gap.

[04Sauzee]

Wonder who the senior club is that's talking about administration

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5552452/bbc-chris-mclaughlin-senior-club-scotland-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edit sorry just seen it was a link to the sun thought it was the BBC

[007]

Wonder who the senior club is that's talking about administration

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5552452/bbc-chris-mclaughlin-senior-club-scotland-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edit sorry just seen it was a link to the sun thought it was the BBC

Probably not Rangers because they don't talk to Chris McLaughlin.

[chippy]

Wonder who the senior club is that's talking about administration

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5552452/bbc-chris-mclaughlin-senior-club-scotland-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edit sorry just seen it was a link to the sun thought it was the BBC

Won’t just be one club could be several. Are we even safe?

[Greenworld]

Won’t just be one club could be several. Are we even safe?Rock solid safe...

Its hearts and Rangers ..

All the others are run well

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[SouthMoroccoStu]

Won’t just be one club could be several. Are we even safe?

Yes we’re safe

The title of “senior club” really narrows it down

Hearts or the Huns - not just wishful thinking

[Since452]

Wonder who the senior club is that's talking about administration

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5552452/bbc-chris-mclaughlin-senior-club-scotland-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edit sorry just seen it was a link to the sun thought it was the BBC

I'd hedge a guess at St Johnsone. They were complaining of money issues very recently and were whoring three stands to Celtic and Sevco this season

[Smartie]

It will have been discussed at Hearts.

Some 12 fingered gimp - "Mind that time we went into admin, stiffed all those folk and ran away from tens of millions of pounds worth of debt? That worked out fine, why don't we try that again?"

Anne Budge - "Because this time we'd be bustin' me for millions. A savvy businesswomen o mah standin' isnae gonnae let that happen."

[Ozyhibby]

Won’t just be one club could be several. Are we even safe?

I’m sure we will be safe because we have money in the bank. There will be a lot go before we do. If the SG are thinking of keeping stadiums closed past sept/Oct then there will be a few clubs who go into admin.


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[Wakeyhibee]

Hate to break it to you but increasing the league to 18 teams won’t make us competitive with the old firm. This season after each team had played each other twice there was an 18 point gap between the old firm and 3rd place - adding 6 mid-table championship teams into the mix isn’t going to decrease that gap.

In 2018/19 there was a 11 point gap to the OF and 20 to the top after all games played. Killie did brilliantly but Aberdeen lost 10 pts to the OF in the 2nd half of the season, where they may have picked up 9 or 10 had they played ICT/Ayr etc. That could have made a difference to 2nd in the run up. Hibs and Hearts picked up 1 and 2 pts respectively in their last 5 games and yet games were still well attended with nothing to play for.

I can't see any restructure a making major positive impact on attendances in Scotland as they are, per capita, probably the best in Europe already. TV has to be the way forward unfortunately. If Wikipedia is correct Scotland sells the fewest games to TV and I take it that is why the deals we see in terms of value puts Scotland way down the rankings compared to others. Other countries are offering more games, but not as high profile obviously. I'm not sure the meaningless games argument stands up as much as it did in the 70s. 3pts, Better facilities especially when the weathers bad, more family friendly and viewing habits with Season Tickets play a massive role than they ever did back then.

All I can see in the 45 years of playing each other 4 times, in one form or another, has been to play into the OF hands and for the last 30 years has killed the league as a competition for any winners. Even a sniff of a look in for 2nd in normal circumstances. You can point to Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, which was welcomed but the gap has widened as this format has bedded in. Any change now would need 10 years plus to see it's affects.

14 teams will not make much of a difference to that as you'll still play 4 times and will still have teams yo-yo ing and playing just as much industrial football to stay up, which I think to a large part is why we have lost our standing in European and World terms over the same timeframe.

Don't get me wrong this season has been decent but it does leave us with the same problems that have been inherent for 30+ years.

For me 18 teams or nothing is the way forward..................................... so it wont happen, any change will be short lived, short sighted, self interested.

[eezyrider]

Wonder who the senior club is that's talking about administration

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5552452/bbc-chris-mclaughlin-senior-club-scotland-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edit sorry just seen it was a link to the sun thought it was the BBC

For those not wanting to click on the link, here's the full article.

================================================== =======================

BBC JOURNALIST Chris McLaughlin has claimed that a ‘senior club in Scotland’ have discussed administration.
Clubs in Scotland are facing a crucial period with limited incoming funds due to the coronavirus pandemic.


Kenny Ramsay - The Sun Glasgow
BBC journalist Chris McLaughlin has claimed clubs are discussing administration
And McLaughlin claims administration is being discussed throughout the game during a ‘critical period’.
Speaking on BBC Sportsound, he said: “Don’t underestimate just how critical a point we’re at here.

“I had a converasation with someone about half an hour ago, a senior member of a senior club in Scotland, who told me that administration has been discussed.
“Now, that doesn’t mean that this club in particular who I’m not going to name is ready to go into administration but it’s been discussed.


PA:Press Association
SPFL chief Neil Doncaster
“If it’s been discussed at one club, it’s been discussed at a number of clubs.
“Someone said to me last week that the Scottish government won’t let Scottish football go down. British Airways are talking about pulling out of Gatwick Airport and losing 12,000 jobs.

“It’s critical. It’s absolutely critical.”
League reconstruction is currently being discussed throughout Scottish football.
But former SFA chief executive Stewart Regan insists league reconstruction must be in the interests of EVERY club – not just those at risk of relegation.

================================================== ================================================== =

EZ

[munchar]

No one was talking about a 14 team league before all this. It’s a nonsense. Yes, it’ll get voted in but the league will be all the worse for it.

I’m also shocked on the other thread that the poll shows 36 Hibs fans that are hoping Hearts stay in the league. They obviously never lived through the Mercer attempt, or even been in the company of a Jambo since they overspent with money they didn’t have to win a cup at our expense.

Send them down

100% agreed.
Don’t know why any Hibs fan would vote to save Hearts! They deserve to go down, and also with our best interests at heart, we will find it easier without them & can hopefully kick on while they try to live within their means. Baffled that any Hibs fan can’t see this. Get them down.

[tamig]

They’ve still never served their penance since 2014. One season downstairs then back on a spending spree to destruction once more. Send them down and let them do proper time at last.

[Brunswickbill]

I must be well out of touch because I haven’t heard anyone pushing for league reorganisation over the last few years. 12 team league has its flaws but so does every alternative. With Covid-19 and questions over when fitba will restart, this is the worst time imaginable to think about changing league structures. Just get calling the league done.

[MWHIBBIES]

Ok, maybe wasn't you who was advocating reconstruction that actually had a decent discussion about it. Àll you have done is argue for something that has been shown by folk who lived through it to be not as good as we have now. Then when that was put to you by others you then started talking utter mince about a 6 team league with 3 euro places and 3 relegated. Again, apologies for mixing you up with someone who had some decent points
And as for folk enjoying what we have, well I guess the record STs and highest average attendance for decades shows that some find it a decent product

That hasn't been shown at all. They have given opinions like ''it has 9/10 pointless rounds of games'' which can be proven to be utter rubbish.

[Aldo]

If there’s even talk about it clubs need to realise that we need to move on and move on NOW.

The prize money will go a long way to ensure some clubs future so let’s look at the majority and decide NOW.

**** Hearts and their selfish approach to all this and the SPFL need to grow a set and sort it!


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[B.H.F.C]

All I can see in the 45 years of playing each other 4 times, in one form or another, has been to play into the OF hands and for the last 30 years has killed the league as a competition for any winners.

The Old Firm winning isn’t anything to do with the size of the league. More the size of the bank balance (or being willing to spend millions you don’t have). It’s the same in every league except for the odd freak event (Leicester being the obvious example).

Whether it’s 10, 12, 14, 16 or 18 it’s the same outcome. In fact, they’d accrue even more points IMO. Celtic, this year, have dropped points 4 times, all to teams in the top half. Adding a number of teams who would simply be increasing the number (but not the standard) wouldn’t test them. At the same time, teams like us, Aberdeen or whoever wouldn’t have the consistency to beat those teams with the same regularity.

[007]

100% agreed.
Don’t know why any Hibs fan would vote to save Hearts! They deserve to go down, and also with our best interests at heart, we will find it easier without them & can hopefully kick on while they try to live within their means. Baffled that any Hibs fan can’t see this. Get them down.

The same applies to Aberdeen who would probably have got Boyce if Hearts weren't investing heavily and outbidding them. They'll certainly be in a different market for players whilst in the Championship.

[Tommy75]

I'd hedge a guess at St Johnsone. They were complaining of money issues very recently and were whoring three stands to Celtic and Sevco this season

Can you imagine if it was Livingston and they got a 15 point deduction, they would still be 1 point above that big huge world famous team from Gorgie.

In all seriousness, if any team goes in to Administration over the next few months I wonder if there would amendments to the rules stating that any 15 point deduction would not be applied or applied next season.

[munchar]

Can you imagine if it was Livingston and they got a 15 point deduction, they would still be 1 point above that big huge world famous team from Gorgie.

In all seriousness, if any team goes in to Administration over the next few months I wonder if there would amendments to the rules stating that any 15 point deduction would not be applied or applied next season.

Depends what the circumstances are. Most clubs only had 3 or 4 home games left, so only cash they’ve missed out on is away fans and home walk ups, & catering on the day. Surely this couldn’t push clubs towards admin?

[blackpoolhibs]

It will be the duncans, they will say anything to try and get some sympathy from anywhere and anyone.

[007]

It will be the duncans, they will say anything to try and get some sympathy from anywhere and anyone.

I'm waiting on the Budge flip-flop from temporary to permanent reconstruction and her saying as it turns out the best format was under her nose all along.

[munchar]

It will be the duncans, they will say anything to try and get some sympathy from anywhere and anyone.

Putting rivalry aside, I can’t bring myself to have any sympathy for clubs that have cheated their way to success & robbed innocent & small businesses without a shred of remorse! F them.

[Waxy]

It will be the duncans, they will say anything to try and get some sympathy from anywhere and anyone.

Especially Budge. It seems to be what she does.
Guarenteed everyone has seen through her.

[munchar]

I'm waiting on the Budge flip-flop from temporary to permanent reconstruction and her saying it turns out the best format was under her nose all along.

Once again, blatant self interest. No shame. At least I could slightly accept if she came out with her real reasons for reconstruction!

[PatHead]

The only change to the league rules should be to suspend promotion for 5 years and allow all the teams remaining in the Premiership to strengthen their finances.








Well why not. It is as stupid as reconstruction and would really stuff hearts.

[truehibernian]

It will be the duncans, they will say anything to try and get some sympathy from anywhere and anyone.

Definitely won't be Hearts, despite their financial position being poor - I'll wager its St. Johnstone as their owner has no appetite to pour money in, much like the Dundee United situation under the Thompson's handover. Budge (and friends) would inject cash to avoid that scenario.

[Ozyhibby]

The only change to the league rules should be to suspend promotion for 5 years and allow all the teams remaining in the Premiership to strengthen their finances.








Well why not. It is as stupid as reconstruction and would really stuff hearts.

Now we’re talking.[emoji106]


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[jacomo]

So sorry your so shocked that many Hibs fans might disagree with you and consider league expansion is a worthy goal rather than prioritise some notion of revenge against Hearts. I lived through the Mercer era


Less attitude please.

The point is correct - no one was talking about a 14 team league earlier this season.

I’m all for looking at reconstruction but rushing it through for next season is madness.

[Bostonhibby]

Less attitude please.

The point is correct - no one was talking about a 14 team league earlier this season.

I’m all for looking at reconstruction but rushing it through for next season is madness.I'm still thinking this.

I'm completely against what is basically an expedient to save Hearts from going down and the consequences of it.

I can see a case for a sensible review of what's best long term, conducted at the right pace at the right time rather than a mad dash to do something immediately that wasn't really on the radar until Mrs Budge started the rallying call. There was no clamour to make radical instant change at the end of this season in January/February.

There might be a wish amongst a few to save Hearts and those clubs might see some benefit or gain some concessions as a result, but lets call it what it is, sure Sevco want to somehow blight Celtc's title win however it comes about, but the rest of this is about Hearts short term salvation and they won't look twice at any of the club's who might back Mrs Budge's plan if they later find themselves in trouble.

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[chippy]

Less attitude please.

The point is correct - no one was talking about a 14 team league earlier this season.

I’m all for looking at reconstruction but rushing it through for next season is madness.

Touchy touchy. Reconstruction is never far away any time. It’s been around since the mid 70s ever since they reduced the league size. There never will be a perfect time. It’s not complicated to change. You say it’s rushed I say it’s not before time. I won’t let my feelings against Hearts cloud my judgement of what I think is fair( no relegation) and what is in the best interests of Scottish football IMO of course.

[Wakeyhibee]

The Old Firm winning isn’t anything to do with the size of the league. More the size of the bank balance (or being willing to spend millions you don’t have). It’s the same in every league except for the odd freak event (Leicester being the obvious example).

Whether it’s 10, 12, 14, 16 or 18 it’s the same outcome. In fact, they’d accrue even more points IMO. Celtic, this year, have dropped points 4 times, all to teams in the top half. Adding a number of teams who would simply be increasing the number (but not the standard) wouldn’t test them. At the same time, teams like us, Aberdeen or whoever wouldn’t have the consistency to beat those teams with the same regularity.

I would say without a seismic shift nothing will ever change the OF winning the league. Playing them 4 times each makes the improbable, impossible.

I do understand your points about consistency but if we resign to that never changing then what's the point?

Your Leicester point I agree was a one off. Would they have done it playing the top teams 4 times in a smaller league? I would say the chances would be slimmer.

[RoYO!]

Quite simply I'm not ok with hibs voting to save hearts from relegation.

Some will balk at that.

That's my stance. Don't really see any benefit to reconstruction in any case.

[Ozyhibby]

Quite simply I'm not ok with hibs voting to save hearts from relegation.

Some will balk at that.

That's my stance. Don't really see any benefit to reconstruction in any case.

I can believe Hibs would vote to save Hearts if it was in our financial interest to do so. The club is a business after all. Luckily for us fans there is no form of reconstruction that does not lose us money so you can bet we won’t vote for it.


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[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Touchy touchy. Reconstruction is never far away any time. It’s been around since the mid 70s ever since they reduced the league size. There never will be a perfect time. It’s not complicated to change. You say it’s rushed I say it’s not before time. I won’t let my feelings against Hearts cloud my judgement of what I think is fair( no relegation) and what is in the best interests of Scottish football IMO of course.

Honestly yet to see a single argument for a 14 team league that would be in the best interests of Scottish football. Genuinely not just saying that because of who is bottom. An uneven split in February surely cannot benefit our league at all.

[Green Diet]

I say yes to reconstruction. To give this season some credibility hearts should still be relegated and sufficient clubs from the championship be promoted to make the numbers up.

[chippy]

Honestly yet to see a single argument for a 14 team league that would be in the best interests of Scottish football. Genuinely not just saying that because of who is bottom. An uneven split in February surely cannot benefit our league at all.

There’s really no hope then or is there? How about a 16 team league that splits in 4x4 so that would split around March / April. If your really interested I’ll say more about the splits, but at a rough guess you’ll probably be way against a 16. If you really want to check out the Belgian and Danish leagues they have similar splits

[B.H.F.C]

I would say without a seismic shift nothing will ever change the OF winning the league. Playing them 4 times each makes the improbable, impossible.

I do understand your points about consistency but if we resign to that never changing then what's the point?

Your Leicester point I agree was a one off. Would they have done it playing the top teams 4 times in a smaller league? I would say the chances would be slimmer.

I don’t think playing them four times a season makes it impossible. Our best season in years was our first season back up. We won one, lost one, drew two against Celtic. Won two, lost one, drew one against Rangers.

What makes it impossible, IMO, is that we don’t have the finances to build a squad that can be consistent, week in, week out. With my Leicester example they were lucky in the sense that they were pretty much able too it the same team on the park week in, week out. Didn’t have any cup distractions either.

[jacomo]

I don’t think playing them four times a season makes it impossible. Our best season in years was our first season back up. We won one, lost one, drew two against Celtic. Won two, lost one, drew one against Rangers.

What makes it impossible, IMO, is that we don’t have the finances to build a squad that can be consistent, week in, week out. With my Leicester example they were lucky in the sense that they were pretty much able too it the same team on the park week in, week out. Didn’t have any cup distractions either.


The stats show that it definitely makes it less likely though.

This is the strongest argument imo for only playing other clubs twice a season. It would increase the chances of some club outside the ugly sisters winning the league.

But, to do that you need to go to a 16 or probably 18 team division.

[B.H.F.C]

The stats show that it definitely makes it less likely though.

This is the strongest argument imo for only playing other clubs twice a season. It would increase the chances of some club outside the ugly sisters winning the league.

But, to do that you need to go to a 16 or probably 18 team division.

Out of interest, what stats or comparing it to what?

[Bishop Hibee]

Send Hearts down.

[allezsauzee]

The same applies to Aberdeen who would probably have got Boyce if Hearts weren't investing heavily and outbidding them. They'll certainly be in a different market for players whilst in the Championship.

The same Aberdeen that get lower crowds than us but blow us out the water when it comes to signing players? They are just as bad as the yams. That said I'll be raging if we vote to save the yams from justice. maybe even enough to not renew my ST.

[007]

The same Aberdeen that get lower crowds than us but blow us out the water when it comes to signing players? They are just as bad as the yams. That said I'll be raging if we vote to save the yams from justice. maybe even enough to not renew my ST.

I was meaning the same applies to Aberdeen in that I don't know why they would vote to save Hearts.

[Sammy7nil]

Touchy touchy. Reconstruction is never far away any time. It’s been around since the mid 70s ever since they reduced the league size. There never will be a perfect time. It’s not complicated to change. You say it’s rushed I say it’s not before time. I won’t let my feelings against Hearts cloud my judgement of what I think is fair( no relegation) and what is in the best interests of Scottish football IMO of course.

You won't be surprised to hear many Hibs fans disagree with you. The 12 team league has resulted in many good ends to the season instead of meaningless games. There was no clamour for league reconstruction prior to covid-19. There is no evidence what so ever 14 teams would benefit Scottish football. The silly argument of let's try and see if it is good proves there is no sound case for that change.

[Waxy]

There’s really no hope then or is there? How about a 16 team league that splits in 4x4 so that would split around March / April. If your really interested I’ll say more about the splits, but at a rough guess you’ll probably be way against a 16. If you really want to check out the Belgian and Danish leagues they have similar splits

If there really is a better system, we should employ a proper more qualified group to figure it out. This would take at least a season or two with fair warning the league was changing.
Not just some made up excuse to save a club who dont deserve saving.
If St Mirren were bottom no one would have said anything.
Its getting people angry now. Clubs need payed out.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

There’s really no hope then or is there? How about a 16 team league that splits in 4x4 so that would split around March / April. If your really interested I’ll say more about the splits, but at a rough guess you’ll probably be way against a 16. If you really want to check out the Belgian and Danish leagues they have similar splits

Not against other options being properly discussed. Improvements should always be on the table. That’s not what’s happening here though, seems that 14 is the only option on the table and is clearly only there to save Hearts rather than improve the game for everyone else imo

[Rumble de Thump]

Dundee United look like they could be a decent addition to the Premier League but we already have about four rotten teams in the league. Hearts aren't good enough to be in it and the other Championship teams don't look any better than rotten ones we already have in it. Increasing the number of rubbish teams in the top flight is not going to be good for anyone.

[we are hibs]

There’s really no hope then or is there? How about a 16 team league that splits in 4x4 so that would split around March / April. If your really interested I’ll say more about the splits, but at a rough guess you’ll probably be way against a 16. If you really want to check out the Belgian and Danish leagues they have similar splits


Sky wont agree to a 16 team league. They want 4 old firm games a season. And before anyone jumps in saying they would be happy having the ayrshire derby, highland derby, dundee derby and edinburgh derby, they wouldnt because sky dont give a **** about anyone else other than celtic and rangers.

[jacomo]

Out of interest, what stats or comparing it to what?


Our record in head to head v the ugly sisters.

Yes we have sometimes come out even or ahead on points, but normally we do not. Playing each team 4 games a season definitely helps the richer teams. There can still be upsets or shock results but they can be mitigated.

[greenginger]

Sky wont agree to a 16 team league. They want 4 old firm games a season. And before anyone jumps in saying they would be happy having the ayrshire derby, highland derby, dundee derby and edinburgh derby, they wouldnt because sky dont give a **** about anyone else other than celtic and rangers.


100%. Anyone watching Sky re-runs of old games on Sky will see the Scottish content is always 3 or 4 Old Firm games with a token non Old Firm game usually involving one of the ugly sisters.

[JimBHibees]

Honestly yet to see a single argument for a 14 team league that would be in the best interests of Scottish football. Genuinely not just saying that because of who is bottom. An uneven split in February surely cannot benefit our league at all.

That is my view also. Haven't heard a single proposal better than what we currently have. Split after 3 games and then top 6 and bottom 6 isn't perfect but infinitely preferable to a 6 and 8 split imo. The current set up has pretty much all teams playing for something don't see the benefit in including more teams in imo. One change I would make would be the play off being fairer to the championship with the 11th premier team in a semi final with 4th place then a one off play off final at a neutral ground. Also can't remember any reconstruction chat recently at all and it wouldn't be getting discussed if St Mirren or Hamilton were 12th. Hearts deserve to go down simple as that.

[Marco G]

That is my view also. Haven't heard a single proposal better than what we currently have. Split after 3 games and then top 6 and bottom 6 isn't perfect but infinitely preferable to a 6 and 8 split imo. The current set up has pretty much all teams playing for something don't see the benefit in including more teams in imo. One change I would make would be the play off being fairer to the championship with the 11th premier team in a semi final with 4th place then a one off play off final at a neutral ground. Also can't remember any reconstruction chat recently at all and it wouldn't be getting discussed if St Mirren or Hamilton were 12th. Hearts deserve to go down simple as that.Exactly. If current setup is so bad, why are attendances so high?

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

[JimBHibees]

You won't be surprised to hear many Hibs fans disagree with you. The 12 team league has resulted in many good ends to the season instead of meaningless games. There was no clamour for league reconstruction prior to covid-19. There is no evidence what so ever 14 teams would benefit Scottish football. The silly argument of let's try and see if it is good proves there is no sound case for that change.

Was there not a vote on here 90% against reconstruction. Vast majority of Hibs fans imo will not want reconstruction especially on the rushed through basis of helping Hearts just because they are bottom.

[JimBHibees]

Exactly. If current setup is so bad, why are attendances so high?

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Agree can't remember crowds being any higher than they are at present.

[Waxy]

That is my view also. Haven't heard a single proposal better than what we currently have. Split after 3 games and then top 6 and bottom 6 isn't perfect but infinitely preferable to a 6 and 8 split imo. The current set up has pretty much all teams playing for something don't see the benefit in including more teams in imo. One change I would make would be the play off being fairer to the championship with the 11th premier team in a semi final with 4th place then a one off play off final at a neutral ground. Also can't remember any reconstruction chat recently at all and it wouldn't be getting discussed if St Mirren or Hamilton were 12th. Hearts deserve to go down simple as that.
Spot on.
Also if they want to change it to a worse system, now would be the worst time to do it.

[jacomo]

Dundee United look like they could be a decent addition to the Premier League but we already have about four rotten teams in the league. Hearts aren't good enough to be in it and the other Championship teams don't look any better than rotten ones we already have in it. Increasing the number of rubbish teams in the top flight is not going to be good for anyone.


I’m sympathetic to the argument that an expanded league might, over time, drag the level of some teams up. But I don’t see how a 14 team league with 2 relegation spots does that.

[Eyrie]

Our record in head to head v the ugly sisters.

Yes we have sometimes come out even or ahead on points, but normally we do not. Playing each team 4 games a season definitely helps the richer teams. There can still be upsets or shock results but they can be mitigated.

If we're good enough to finish ahead of the Ugly Sisters then we're good enough to take more points from them than they will from us (eg two home wins and an away draw).

Only playing them twice a season won't improve the odds of us winning the league, otherwise we would have a lot more than just four titles.

[SiinDubai]

Send Hearts down.

100% YES
:agree:

[Waxy]

Send Hearts down.

Why are we waiting?

[chippy]

You won't be surprised to hear many Hibs fans disagree with you. The 12 team league has resulted in many good ends to the season instead of meaningless games. There was no clamour for league reconstruction prior to covid-19. There is no evidence what so ever 14 teams would benefit Scottish football. The silly argument of let's try and see if it is good proves there is no sound case for that change.

There’s an argument that over the last 20 odd years every game apart from games involving Celtic and Rangers are I meaningless. The other 10 teams n the league are simply there as cannon fodder. Our meaningful games involve avoiding relegation or getting a Euro spot for one trip to Iceland or Greece or Hungary or Faroese. There does seem substance to the view that 16/18 team leagues narrow the gap. It’s arguable a 14 team league would. I know before you pile in and tell me about 4 o/f games, finance, not enough good teams, bottom 4 of current league are rubbish, lower crowds vs Dundee, Ayr so please I’ve heard most of it all before. But I think the Narrowing the gap is persuasive for me as well as providing more room, freedom to develop young Scottish players.

[MrSmith]

There’s an argument that over the last 20 odd years every game apart from games involving Celtic and Rangers are I meaningless. The other 10 teams n the league are simply there as cannon fodder. Our meaningful games involve avoiding relegation or getting a Euro spot for one trip to Iceland or Greece or Hungary or Faroese. There does seem substance to the view that 16/18 team leagues narrow the gap. It’s arguable a 14 team league would. I know before you pile in and tell me about 4 o/f games, finance, not enough good teams, bottom 4 of current league are rubbish, lower crowds vs Dundee, Ayr so please I’ve heard most of it all before. But I think the Narrowing the gap is persuasive for me as well as providing more room, freedom to develop young Scottish players.

I somewhat agree. 18 team league would work.

top six break away for title and euro places
middle six get assigned 1 single euro place to fight for or similar
bottom 6 fight relegation

[GreenPJ]

I somewhat agree. 18 team league would work.

top six break away for title and euro places
middle six get assigned 1 single euro place to fight for or similar
bottom 6 fight relegation
Is it not UEFA that determines the league placings that qualify for European places?

[MrSmith]

Is it not UEFA that determines the league placings that qualify for European places?

As far as I’m aware, yes. It was only a thought to make a larger league more interesting.

[truehibernian]

Listening to Sportsound, thank god Richard Gordon and Tom English are not involved in Scottish football governance.............simply awful grasp of things and are coming across as idiots. Doncaster is actually making sense and providing clarity - been a critic of him in the past regarding promoting the game here, but his explanation is infuriating that pair as English in particular is getting his facts and 'scoop' shot to bits :agree:

[Joe6-2]

Why are we waiting?

Why? Why? Wwwwhhhhyyyyyy?

[Hibeesforever]

Listening to Sportsound, thank god Richard Gordon and Tom English are not involved in Scottish football governance.............simply awful grasp of things and are coming across as idiots. Doncaster is actually making sense and providing clarity - been a critic of him in the past regarding promoting the game here, but his explanation is infuriating that pair as English in particular is getting his facts and 'scoop' shot to bits :agree:

Indeed, talking about vague allegations...he is sounding clear and genuinely trying to help Scottish Football. Hearts and The Rangers are doing the bullying!

[Joe6-2]

Indeed, talking about vague allegations...he is sounding clear and genuinely trying to help Scottish Football. Hearts and The Rangers are doing the bullying!

Isn’t it always the ars*holes

[A Hi-Bee]

Have they gone yet!! if no then why the **** no, get them relegated and get on with saving the game.

[chippy]

I somewhat agree. 18 team league would work.

top six break away for title and euro places
middle six get assigned 1 single euro place to fight for or similar
bottom 6 fight relegation

That’s a good shout mate. There’s another anti 16/18 team league argument that says your replacing 4 home games against Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen with games against Dundee, Ayr, ICT, Dunfermline. Of course in your model or a similar 14/16 model you get this extra home game If you make the top group. Isn’t there evidence that we don’t sell out all the time vs Old firm and Aberdeen and some people won’t take kids to Old firm games. Sure we sell higher priced tickets to them and there will be some disparity but will it be that big especially as we’ve got circa 13k seasons. Also my memory tells me that clubs like Pars, Dundee, Falkirk , Thistle often bring a decent away support with them. Much more that the few dozen of Livi, Hamilton, Ross County. Also if you miss out the odd time with the extra games vs Hearts or the Old Firm doesn’t it add a bit of rarity value to the ticket which increases interest next time round you play them.

[munchar]

There’s an argument that over the last 20 odd years every game apart from games involving Celtic and Rangers are I meaningless. The other 10 teams n the league are simply there as cannon fodder. Our meaningful games involve avoiding relegation or getting a Euro spot for one trip to Iceland or Greece or Hungary or Faroese. There does seem substance to the view that 16/18 team leagues narrow the gap. It’s arguable a 14 team league would. I know before you pile in and tell me about 4 o/f games, finance, not enough good teams, bottom 4 of current league are rubbish, lower crowds vs Dundee, Ayr so please I’ve heard most of it all before. But I think the Narrowing the gap is persuasive for me as well as providing more room, freedom to develop young Scottish players.

What’s your preferred option, why & how would it work?

[ekhibee]

They're having an argument about loans on Sportsound at the moment and English is spouting his usual pish. What I did notice was that the last loan was in season 2011/2012 according to Brian McLaughlin.

English's argument was that Budge had said she had been part of the SPFL board when she said a loan had gone through for some club, she wasn't sure who. She also said that during her loaded interview with him. But Budge only took control of Hearts in 2014, so surely she must be telling porkies, she wouldn't have been on the board at that time?

[hibeerealist]

They're having an argument about loans on Sportsound at the moment and English is spouting his usual pish. What I did notice was that the last loan was in season 2011/2012 according to Brian McLaughlin.

English's argument was that Budge had said she had been part of the SPFL board when she said a loan had gone through for some club, she wasn't sure who. She also said that during her loaded interview with him. But Budge only took control of Hearts in 2014, so surely she must be telling porkies, she wouldn't have been on the board at that time?

Yup, ANOTHER thing she has got wrong!!

[Billy Whizz]

They're having an argument about loans on Sportsound at the moment and English is spouting his usual pish. What I did notice was that the last loan was in season 2011/2012 according to Brian McLaughlin.

English's argument was that Budge had said she had been part of the SPFL board when she said a loan had gone through for some club, she wasn't sure who. She also said that during her loaded interview with him. But Budge only took control of Hearts in 2014, so surely she must be telling porkies, she wouldn't have been on the board at that time?

I think English etc are using the terminology of loans/advances as the same thing
Loans need paid pack, where advances generally aren’t

[chippy]

What’s your preferred option, why & how would it work?

if you read through this thread you’ll see other arguments from me and many counters from others of course.

I’ll happily accept an 18/16 or 14. The splits can be managed accordingly

14 : Top 8/6 split after 26 games. Top 8 14 more games, Title and 4/5 Euro places. Bottom 6. Tough but 10 more games to avoid relegation and stay in league

16: Top 6/ Middle 6/ bottom 4 . Top 6 , 10 more games. Title and 3/4 Euro places. Middle 8 form 2 mini groups play 6 games, winners play off and that winner goes into a play off with 5th and 6th of Top 6 for final Euro place. Bottom 4 , 6 more games , 2 relegated.

18: Similar to 16 team league above except middle 8

[munchar]

if you read through this thread you’ll see other arguments from me and many counters from others of course.

I’ll happily accept an 18/16 or 14. The splits can be managed accordingly

14 : Top 8/6 split after 26 games. Top 8 14 more games, Title and 4/5 Euro places. Bottom 6. Tough but 10 more games to avoid relegation and stay in league

16: Top 6/ Middle 6/ bottom 4 . Top 6 , 10 more games. Title and 3/4 Euro places. Middle 8 form 2 mini groups play 6 games, winners play off and that winner goes into a play off with 5th and 6th of Top 6 for final Euro place. Bottom 4 , 6 more games , 2 relegated.

18: Similar to 16 team league above except middle 8 in

The 16 looks like it keeps the season going to the end with things to play for, which should keep fans interested & attract big crowds. Even if we were involved in a relegation battle, it’s still a big game to win.
Concerns with 14/16/18 is the quality. Our game is already seen as a farce from some down south. Can you imagine adding 6 teams to the league. There would be some heavy embarrassing defeats handed out to the weaker teams.
My gripe with reconstruction this season, is that teams are being rewarded for failure. No concern for the teams in play offs & also just outside play offs. There’s no fair way to please everyone. That’s why, imo, finishing the leagues as they stand, there’s no ifs & buts. The current best teams are champions, & current worst teams are relegated. Nobody could’ve seen this pandemic coming, so it’s the virus that’s unfair, not the SPFL. Let’s discuss reconstruction for the future, but it must be shown to improve our game. People arguing that 4 games is to much, but any option shown is still a lot of teams playing 4 times.
Until we change the voting structure, which is basically if the Old Firm don’t like it, it doesn’t happen, & letting sky dictate to us, we’re stuck in a rut.

[Waxy]

They're having an argument about loans on Sportsound at the moment and English is spouting his usual pish. What I did notice was that the last loan was in season 2011/2012 according to Brian McLaughlin.

English's argument was that Budge had said she had been part of the SPFL board when she said a loan had gone through for some club, she wasn't sure who. She also said that during her loaded interview with him. But Budge only took control of Hearts in 2014, so surely she must be telling porkies, she wouldn't have been on the board at that time?

Yes the bbc have had to backtrack on the article about this and change it.

[Eyrie]

That’s a good shout mate. There’s another anti 16/18 team league argument that says your replacing 4 home games against Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen with games against Dundee, Ayr, ICT, Dunfermline. Of course in your model or a similar 14/16 model you get this extra home game If you make the top group. Isn’t there evidence that we don’t sell out all the time vs Old firm and Aberdeen and some people won’t take kids to Old firm games. Sure we sell higher priced tickets to them and there will be some disparity but will it be that big especially as we’ve got circa 13k seasons. Also my memory tells me that clubs like Pars, Dundee, Falkirk , Thistle often bring a decent away support with them. Much more that the few dozen of Livi, Hamilton, Ross County. Also if you miss out the odd time with the extra games vs Hearts or the Old Firm doesn’t it add a bit of rarity value to the ticket which increases interest next time round you play them.

What makes you think we'll still have 13k season tickets in a 16 or 18 team league?

It's easy enough to get a walk up ticket for any game other than the derby or Ugly Sisters, so many people won't bother with the up front expense and will simply walk up for games against Hamilton, Dundee United or Kilmarnock. And if those games are later in the season when we're in mid table with little realistic prospect of catching the European places, many of those walk ups won't bother because we're Hibs fans - there is no novelty value to watching us play St Mirren or Inverness once a season as proven by attendances for our cup games.

[The Harp]

We rightly left an 18 team set up back in 74/75 primarily because there were too many meaningless games.
The 12 team league imo is the most appropriate for the top tier of Scottish football and has worked pretty well by and large. A 14 team league, splitting into a top 6 and bottom 8, would definitely be a backward step for me.

[malcolm]

We rightly left an 18 team set up back in 74/75 primarily because there were too many meaningless games.
The 12 team league imo is the most appropriate for the top tier of Scottish football and has worked pretty well by and large. A 14 team league, splitting into a top 6 and bottom 8, would definitely be a backward step for me.

Agree that something to play for seems to matter to some but on the other hand playing a wider range of teams offers more interest. For the standards argument there is evidence that low crowds are not a barrier to performing to a top league standard (Livingston and Killie) and large crowds no guarantee of it (hearts). However, the best step to improve would be to drop the daft winter shutdown and other needless pauses. The current system does work and the Heinz 57 varieties suggested for change here and elsewhere suggest there is no obvious better version or consensus on a replacement, so I expect relegation, promotion and no reconstruction it will be.

What some have forgotten from comparisons to the past is the financial power of clubs had by being able to hold onto registrations and the big benefit to everyone, other than the gruesome twosome, of sharing gates. Think the biggest backward step in the last was allowing home gates to be kept you’d not pay to watch a game without an opponent!

[chippy]

What makes you think we'll still have 13k season tickets in a 16 or 18 team league?

It's easy enough to get a walk up ticket for any game other than the derby or Ugly Sisters, so many people won't bother with the up front expense and will simply walk up for games against Hamilton, Dundee United or Kilmarnock. And if those games are later in the season when we're in mid table with little realistic prospect of catching the European places, many of those walk ups won't bother because we're Hibs fans - there is no novelty value to watching us play St Mirren or Inverness once a season as proven by attendances for our cup games.

1) winning more games 2) going on longer winning runs 3) playing with more freedom therefore more attacking football, games more open 4) giving young Scots more chances and longer runs in the team- we like that 5) Old firm games regularly don’t sell out, they’re often on at rubbish times too. Some fans avoid them re sectarian singing, bike etc 6) we got 12k season ticket holders in the 10 club Championship 7) Likely to win more away games 8) less visits to Glasgow and more visits to Hibs friendly parts of the country 8) your comparing apples and pears re attendances at cup games. Season tickets not valid and the cup isn’t the league

[B.H.F.C]

1) winning more games 2) going on longer winning runs 3) playing with more freedom therefore more attacking football, games more open 4) giving young Scots more chances and longer runs in the team- we like that 5) Old firm games regularly don’t sell out, they’re often on at rubbish times too. Some fans avoid them re sectarian singing, bike etc 6) we got 12k season ticket holders in the 10 club Championship 7) Likely to win more away games 8) less visits to Glasgow and more visits to Hibs friendly parts of the country 8) your comparing apples and pears re attendances at cup games. Season tickets not valid and the cup isn’t the league

So many of those points are just opinion. There is nothing to suggest it would actually transpire that way.

1. How many more games would we win really? Would be much more consistent given that, even in the championship we dropped points to the likes of Dumbarton and Alloa.

2. Would we? See above.

3. Don’t see why we’d play much differently. If anything you’d be playing against more teams who weren’t intent on coming out of their own half.

4. If, by your logic, teams like us would have a better chance of challenging would that not decrease the chances for young players?

5. Our biggest crowds of the season except the derby.

6. On the back of a cup win. Crowds were dreadful leading up to that.

7. I remember coming away from Dumbarton, Alloa, Raith, Morton, Queen of the South, Falkirk amongst others without wins in the championship. Changing the league size will never change that, investing more money will.

8. Games in Glasgow are the best away days for many. Better than standing getting soaked at Morton or travelling to Dingwall on a Wednesday night.

[chippy]

So many of those points are just opinion. There is nothing to suggest it would actually transpire that way.

1. How many more games would we win really? Would be much more consistent given that, even in the championship we dropped points to the likes of Dumbarton and Alloa.

2. Would we? See above.

3. Don’t see why we’d play much differently. If anything you’d be playing against more teams who weren’t intent on coming out of their own half.

4. If, by your logic, teams like us would have a better chance of challenging would that not decrease the chances for young players?

5. Our biggest crowds of the season except the derby.

6. On the back of a cup win. Crowds were dreadful leading up to that.

7. I remember coming away from Dumbarton, Alloa, Raith, Morton, Queen of the South, Falkirk amongst others without wins in the championship. Changing the league size will never change that, investing more money will.

8. Games in Glasgow are the best away days for many. Better than standing getting soaked at Morton or travelling to Dingwall on a Wednesday night.

So many of your points to are also just opinion. In respinse
1. Without checking the historic records I’m sure our winning record against non old firm teams is much better that vs the old firm
2. see above
3 Bigger league , less chance of relegation = more open football by us and others IMO
4. Realistically I wouldn’t expect us to be challenging for the title unless we unearthed a few gems at a similar time and perhaps made a couple of shrewd signings. Something like the Mowbray / Collins era. Still think that the no 1 task in the current set up,is to avoid relegation for 10 teams. In larger leagues that fear, negativity is much reduced for clubs our size. You get a chance to build a team with younger players if there is a middle league area that’s relatively free from relegation. We wouldn’t challenge near the top every year. We will sell some players and introduce new ones. The bigger league gives you some flexibility to do that. I watched the 18 team league from early 60s to the late 70s I thought it was great. Great teams , players etc. Some of our best ever teams apart from 1880s, 1902 and 1950s. Funny how the only times we’ve won leagues has been big leagues. Eddie Turnbull was dead against the small leagues. He described it as a league with a top and bottom only but no middle. He felt the middle had great value for clubs like ours and the game in general
5. what 16/17k as opposed to say vs Dundee or Dunfermline 13k plus 2k , total 15k, so we’re down 2-3k for a few games is that such a big hole in our finances? If you go for a large league with the splits then as long as you get in the top 6 or 8 then you still get all the old firm games, probably Dons, often Jambos.
6. agreed so a lot of our big support now is due to the cup win not the league set up
7. that’s about investment, good signings and young players played at the right time and developed. The league size will help us we were only ever relegated once in the 1930s from a 16 team league. We’ve had to endure what 3 relegations in the last 42 years whilst we had one in the previous 100 years
8 You might enjoy away games in Glasgow , good on you they’re not for me being on the receiving end of sectarian filth. Have to say Dingwall a bit of a stretch for me these days but aren’t they one of the giants in our league now? Mind you happy days going to Dunfermline , Dundee, Falkirk, Raith, and dare I say it even Airdrie.

[Glory Lurker]

No!

[CapitalGreen]

if you read through this thread you’ll see other arguments from me and many counters from others of course.

I’ll happily accept an 18/16 or 14. The splits can be managed accordingly

14 : Top 8/6 split after 26 games. Top 8 14 more games, Title and 4/5 Euro places. Bottom 6. Tough but 10 more games to avoid relegation and stay in league

16: Top 6/ Middle 6/ bottom 4 . Top 6 , 10 more games. Title and 3/4 Euro places. Middle 8 form 2 mini groups play 6 games, winners play off and that winner goes into a play off with 5th and 6th of Top 6 for final Euro place. Bottom 4 , 6 more games , 2 relegated.

18: Similar to 16 team league above except middle 8

So under your 16 and 18 team set ups the better teams play more games - top group = 36 games, bottom group = 32 games which will lead to the richer clubs getting richer and the poorer clubs getting poorer. The clubs at the bottom will have lost 3 home games on the current 12 team set up including 1 against an old firm team.

The dominance by the old firm has nothing to do with the number of teams in the league. There was non-Old firm winners and challengers up to the mid-80s. David Murray and subsequently the launch of the Champions League is what drove their dominance in the modern era and it’s not unique to Scotland.

France (20 teams) - PSG won 7 of the last 8 titles
Norway (16 teams) - Molde and Rosenburg winning 10 of the last 11 titles
Greece (14 teams) - Olympiacos won all but 4 titles since 1996
Juventus (20 teams) - Juventus have won 8 in a row.

The same pattern is being repeated across most European leagues, the regular Champions League teams keep getting richer and the gap with the other clubs is widening.

If you want a more competitive football league you need a fairer distribution of income. Reducing the amount of games the poorer clubs play and reducing the games that bring in the most income for them is going to have the opposite effect you are hoping for, the disparity between the teams at the top and the bottom will just get wider. Now Hibs being one of the richer teams may benefit from that but I doubt it would improve the product on display for the match attending fans.

[chippy]

So under your 16 and 18 team set ups the better teams play more games - top group = 36 games, bottom group = 32 games which will lead to the richer clubs getting richer and the poorer clubs getting poorer. The clubs at the bottom will have lost 3 home games on the current 12 team set up including 1 against an old firm team.

The dominance by the old firm has nothing to do with the number of teams in the league. There was non-Old firm winners and challengers up to the mid-80s. David Murray and subsequently the launch of the Champions League is what drove their dominance in the modern era and it’s not unique to Scotland.

France (20 teams) - PSG won 7 of the last 8 titles
Norway (16 teams) - Molde and Rosenburg winning 10 of the last 11 titles
Greece (14 teams) - Olympiacos won all but 4 titles since 1996
Juventus (20 teams) - Juventus have won 8 in a row.

The same pattern is being repeated across most European leagues, the regular Champions League teams keep getting richer and the gap with the other clubs is widening.

If you want a more competitive football league you need a fairer distribution of income. Reducing the amount of games the poorer clubs play and reducing the games that bring in the most income for them is going to have the opposite effect you are hoping for, the disparity between the teams at the top and the bottom will just get wider. Now Hibs being one of the richer teams may benefit from that but I doubt it would improve the product on display for the match attending fans.

Don’t disagree with what you say about financials etc. But on the no of games in the models mentioned

14 team league 8/6 split. Top 8 play 40, bottom 6 play 36.

16 team league: Top 6 play 30 plus 10 = 40 games. Middle 6 play 30 plus 4, though group winners could play another 2-4 games. Bottom 4 play 30 plus 6 = 36

18 team league : Top 4 play 34 plus 6 = 40, middle 8 play 34 plus 6 with group winners another 2 games for final Euro place. Bottom 6 play 34 plus 10 = 44
you will notice I made it top 4 rather than top 6 otherwise too many games.

[B.H.F.C]

So many of your points to are also just opinion. In respinse
1. Without checking the historic records I’m sure our winning record against non old firm teams is much better that vs the old firm
2. see above
3 Bigger league , less chance of relegation = more open football by us and others IMO
4. Realistically I wouldn’t expect us to be challenging for the title unless we unearthed a few gems at a similar time and perhaps made a couple of shrewd signings. Something like the Mowbray / Collins era. Still think that the no 1 task in the current set up,is to avoid relegation for 10 teams. In larger leagues that fear, negativity is much reduced for clubs our size. You get a chance to build a team with younger players if there is a middle league area that’s relatively free from relegation. We wouldn’t challenge near the top every year. We will sell some players and introduce new ones. The bigger league gives you some flexibility to do that. I watched the 18 team league from early 60s to the late 70s I thought it was great. Great teams , players etc. Some of our best ever teams apart from 1880s, 1902 and 1950s. Funny how the only times we’ve won leagues has been big leagues. Eddie Turnbull was dead against the small leagues. He described it as a league with a top and bottom only but no middle. He felt the middle had great value for clubs like ours and the game in general
5. what 16/17k as opposed to say vs Dundee or Dunfermline 13k plus 2k , total 15k, so we’re down 2-3k for a few games is that such a big hole in our finances? If you go for a large league with the splits then as long as you get in the top 6 or 8 then you still get all the old firm games, probably Dons, often Jambos.
6. agreed so a lot of our big support now is due to the cup win not the league set up
7. that’s about investment, good signings and young players played at the right time and developed. The league size will help us we were only ever relegated once in the 1930s from a 16 team league. We’ve had to endure what 3 relegations in the last 42 years whilst we had one in the previous 100 years
8 You might enjoy away games in Glasgow , good on you they’re not for me being on the receiving end of sectarian filth. Have to say Dingwall a bit of a stretch for me these days but aren’t they one of the giants in our league now? Mind you happy days going to Dunfermline , Dundee, Falkirk, Raith, and dare I say it even Airdrie.

None of the things you’ve raised put forward a good business case for reconstruction. Just all things you think would happen.

It’s a myth that all these young players and attacking football would appear in a bigger league. If the last few weeks have shown us anything it’s how fragile clubs are. You’d have about half the league who’s sole intention would be to avoid relegation.

We’re a small country, do we really have that many ‘top level’ clubs. Are there many nations of 5m with a successful 16 or 18 team top flight?

[Aldo]

Don’t disagree with what you say about financials etc. But on the no of games in the models mentioned

14 team league 8/6 split. Top 8 play 40, bottom 6 play 36.

16 team league: Top 6 play 30 plus 10 = 40 games. Middle 6 play 30 plus 4, though group winners could play another 2-4 games. Bottom 4 play 30 plus 6 = 36

18 team league : Top 4 play 34 plus 6 = 40, middle 8 play 34 plus 6 with group winners another 2 games for final Euro place. Bottom 6 play 34 plus 10 = 44
you will notice I made it top 4 rather than top 6 otherwise too many games.

The number of games should be exactly the same for each team. That is sporting integrity.
If we are going to have a bigger league it should be 18 teams playing each other home and away, no split with everything to play for until the last game.

None of this split when the team that finishes 8th after the split ends up with more points than the team that finishes 5th.

However this won’t happen because of the OF and Sky/BT etc want the possibility of 4 IF every season.

This chat about reconstruction is only to save them from going down.

Just leave it as it is, relegate them and move on!

Simple


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[Bostonhibby]

The number of games should be exactly the same for each team. That is sporting integrity.
If we are going to have a bigger league it should be 18 teams playing each other home and away, no split with everything to play for until the last game.

None of this split when the team that finishes 8th after the split ends up with more points than the team that finishes 5th.

However this won’t happen because of the OF and Sky/BT etc want the possibility of 4 IF every season.

This chat about reconstruction is only to save them from going down.

Just leave it as it is, relegate them and move on!

Simple


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That's all very well Aldo but if we leave it as it is it's no use to the Save Hearts In Trouble brigade and their thinly veiled campaign.

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[Aldo]

That's all very well Aldo but if we leave it as it is it's no use to the Save Hearts In Trouble brigade and their thinly veiled campaign.

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Indeed silly me!


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[Waxy]

Jambos still seem to think its everyone else’s fault they’ve been relegated and nothing to do with themselves.
Seriously what is wrong with them?

[Box 17]

Jambos still seem to think its everyone else’s fault they’ve been relegated and nothing to do with themselves.
Seriously what is wrong with them?

Talk about the elephant in the room. Kickback is full of vitriol against Dundee, Hibs, Celtic, Doncaster, the SPFL and just about everybody else for their current predicament. Not one is pointing the finger at the two individuals who are really to blame:

Ann Budge and Craig Levein.

[Ozyhibby]

Talk about the elephant in the room. Kickback is full of vitriol against Dundee, Hibs, Celtic, Doncaster, the SPFL and just about everybody else for their current predicament. Not one is pointing the finger at the two individuals who are really to blame:

Ann Budge and Craig Levein.

That’s a good thing. Let’s hope they are both there for next season in the championship.


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[jacomo]

Talk about the elephant in the room. Kickback is full of vitriol against Dundee, Hibs, Celtic, Doncaster, the SPFL and just about everybody else for their current predicament. Not one is pointing the finger at the two individuals who are really to blame:

Ann Budge and Craig Levein.


The fans are taking their lead from Budge, who doesn’t seem to think relegation is acceptable for Hearts under any circumstances.

[Waxy]

The fans are taking their lead from Budge, who doesn’t seem to think relegation is acceptable for Hearts under any circumstances.

If they’d beat St Mirren that night they would have been off the bottom just at the right time, even though they’ve been the worst team all year.
So they would have avoided relegation by a goal.
Going by their reaction since the league ended, would they have accepted finishing second bottom as it just wouldnt have been fair?

[tamig]

If they’d beat St Mirren that night they would have been off the bottom just at the right time, even though they’ve been the worst team all year.
So they would have avoided relegation by a goal.
Going by their reaction since the league ended, would they have accepted finishing second bottom as it just wouldnt have been fair?
Just remember that JKB erse’s prophetic post from the day before the fateful game. That alone merits them going down and exposes the hypocrisy of their ongoing tedious rants.

[Col2]

All this is brilliant and the pain is palpable for the gorgie mutants.

It helps a little with lockdown boredom.

They have fully aligned with the full fat huns and the bitterness is at maximum level now. They don’t know if they should defend Budge or throw her under a bus. The thread started to tell everyone to stop saying relegation as it won’t be relegation given the unfairness is priceless.

🎶 With Souter at the back and Boucie in attack, doing it the Stendel way 🎶😂😂😂

[Heisenberg]

Looks like there’s another meeting today to discuss finishing the season/reconstruction and potentially the Rangers evidence. Not sure how it’ll all work with the EGM coming up, would they call the season before that happens?

[Col2]

Surprised so little is coming out on reconstruction. Did Dr Budge not say it needed to be done in 3-4 weeks (end of this week will make it 4). She knows best I guess. As Tom English says “she is a very successful business woman don’t you know”

[rodhibs55]

Jambos still seem to think its everyone else’s fault they’ve been relegated and nothing to do with themselves.
Seriously what is wrong with them?
Agree with this. Its a bit like the 86 season where they blame St Mirren for lying down as the reason the lost the league when the fact is if they had managed even a draw, Celtic could have created a new world record score and it wouldn't have mattered a jot.
Strange lot indeed.

[mjhibby]

The fans are taking their lead from Budge, who doesn’t seem to think relegation is acceptable for Hearts under any circumstances.

Very similar to a trump where he won’t take responsibility for anything. Maybe it’s how great leaders are meant to behave and we are all just silly not to see it. 🤣🤣

[mjhibby]

Just remember that JKB erse’s prophetic post from the day before the fateful game. That alone merits them going down and exposes the hypocrisy of their ongoing tedious rants.

They seemed to have wiped that from their memories. I really hope somehow we can finish this season and they get relegated. I would luv it as a certain k keegan once said. 🤣

[Waxy]

Looks like there’s another meeting today to discuss finishing the season/reconstruction and potentially the Rangers evidence. Not sure how it’ll all work with the EGM coming up, would they call the season before that happens?

They might as well. Clubs have already voted for it to end and uefa are happy with that.In fact Uefa insisted that we conclude the season using sporting merit and we’d already done that.
All thats left to do now is the SPFL carry out the clubs wishes and draw a line under the season.
We need to move on.

[Onion]

Very similar to a trump where he won’t take responsibility for anything. Maybe it’s how great leaders are meant to behave and we are all just silly not to see it. ����

:agree: Trump and Budge mesmerise the weak and stupid. Emperor's new clothes syndrome :greengrin.

[jacomo]

Jambos still seem to think its everyone else’s fault they’ve been relegated and nothing to do with themselves.
Seriously what is wrong with them?


Entitlement I think.

Budge seems to be affronted that Hearts might face the same consequences as any other club that finishes bottom of the league.

[hibbyfraelibby]

:agree: Trump and Budge mesmerise the weak and stupid. Emperor's new clothes syndrome :greengrin.

Did you have to? Budge as the Empress of Gorgie with no clothes? That thought is now embedded in my mind. Fair putting put me off my morning porridge.

[Waxy]

Nine clubs pushing to end the season now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52528495

[Since452]

Nine clubs pushing to end the season now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52528495

That'll be that then

[Steven79]

So Rangers & Hearts against but who could the othe be?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Celtic who want to avoid getting the league by default.

[The Harp Awakes]

So Rangers & Hearts against but who could the othe be?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Celtic who want to avoid getting the league by default.

Could be Aberdeen, or even us as LD has repeatedly said she is against making a premature decision on calling the league.

[danhibees1875]

So Rangers & Hearts against but who could the othe be?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Celtic who want to avoid getting the league by default.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Aberdeen (although they might be less upset now if they get the cup euro place).

Maybe even ourselves. LD has usually seemed to take the "no need to decide now, let's see how things go" approach. But at some point that has to change to just making a call so maybe that's how happened.

[Peevemor]

Could be Aberdeen, or even us as LD has repeatedly said she is against making a premature decision on calling the league.

I thought of Aberdeen & us too.

Also, the 10th team might be OK with finishing the league without actively pushing for it.

[Greenworld]

It matters not who the clubs are other than interest.
I think a blind man can see no amount of talking can lend to any other decision other than.
A) call the league now , promotion and relegation included.
B) no league reconstruction this season , ludicrous to even think of it this year.
c) work with scottish government towards a restart of league 1st of September .




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[Lago]

It matters not who the clubs are other than interest.
I think a blind man can see no amount of talking can lend to any other decision other than.
A) call the league now , promotion and relegation included.
B) no league reconstruction this season , ludicrous to even think of it this year.
c) work with scottish government towards a restart of league 1st of September .




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Can't see any of that happening in the timescales you are suggesting. A & B subject self interest from various clubs. C Scottish government in no hurry to bail out football knowing full well there would be a queue at their door from many other sporting bodies.

[Waxy]

It matters not who the clubs are other than interest.
I think a blind man can see no amount of talking can lend to any other decision other than.
A) call the league now , promotion and relegation included.
B) no league reconstruction this season , ludicrous to even think of it this year.
c) work with scottish government towards a restart of league 1st of September .




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I agree. Dundee utd will be a great swap for hearts who were woeful last season and added little apart from comedy.

[lord bunberry]

Not calling the league now is just delaying the inevitable. When you look at the sums of money involved in staging closed doors games during the lockdown, there can only be one decision left for clubs to make.

[Heisenberg]

Kheredine bloke from the BBC reckons the only options on the table are 14-10-10-10 and 14-14-14. Waste of time. Get it all binned.

[Ozyhibby]

Kheredine bloke from the BBC reckons the only options on the table are 14-10-10-10 and 14-14-14. Waste of time. Get it all binned.

L2 clubs will only vote for 14-14-14 and permanent so the other one can be ruled out.


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[Heisenberg]

L2 clubs will only vote for 14-14-14 and permanent so the other one can be ruled out.


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And some clubs in League one have already said they are against 14-14-14 have they not? Shambles the lot of it.

[Waxy]

Kheredine bloke from the BBC reckons the only options on the table are 14-10-10-10 and 14-14-14. Waste of time. Get it all binned.

L2 clubs already scuppered anything except 14-14-14 but prem clubs and clyde forfar peterhead cove wont vote for that.
Stranraer Partick and Hearts have been bottom all season.
Only leaves Brechin who good chance would have beaten Brora or Kelty and you’ll finish with what was going to happen anyway.

[danhibees1875]

They should do the vote 2 weeks on Thursday and confirm their relegation on the 21st of May.

Not sure why, but there's just something quite nice about that date.

[Jones28]

Talk about the elephant in the room. Kickback is full of vitriol against Dundee, Hibs, Celtic, Doncaster, the SPFL and just about everybody else for their current predicament. Not one is pointing the finger at the two individuals who are really to blame:

Ann Budge and Craig Levein.

Don’t forget Stendel, who’s genius high pressing cost them 2 goals in 20 minutes against Hamilton and had they not had a man wrongly sent off they’d have seen the game out.

I don’t understand how he’s not copping any flack.

[Waxy]

Don’t forget Stendel, who’s genius high pressing cost them 2 goals in 20 minutes against Hamilton and had they not had a man wrongly sent off they’d have seen the game out.

I don’t understand how he’s not copping any flack.

Exactly.
When we went down we turned our disgust on Butcher and the players who couldnt care less.
We didnt bleat to everyone who’d listen that we’d spent millions on staying up so we should get to stay up.
We had to go down. Just like our purple friends from across the way have to now.

[The 90+2]

I agree. Dundee utd will be a great swap for hearts who were woeful last season and added little apart from comedy.

Apart from the times we fell apart against them, yeah. They should be ten adrift and have absolutely no argument at all.

[The 90+2]

Don’t forget Stendel, who’s genius high pressing cost them 2 goals in 20 minutes against Hamilton and had they not had a man wrongly sent off they’d have seen the game out.

I don’t understand how he’s not copping any flack.

Their fans are forgetting everything now saying how rigged and corrupt the spfl are.

Have they even questioned the integrity of Budge still paying Levein to this day for absolutely nothing? It’s not as if it’s directly Budges dosh either.

[Waxy]

Apart from the times we fell apart against them, yeah. They should be ten adrift and have absolutely no argument at all.

Well we have our own issues to deal with.

[The 90+2]

Well we have our own issues to deal with.

True. It’s frustrating as anything though.

[Jones28]

Their fans are forgetting everything now saying how rigged and corrupt the spfl are.

Have they even questioned the integrity of Budge still paying Levein to this day for absolutely nothing? It’s not as if it’s directly Budges dosh either.

Tom English can bum her up all he wants as being a “brilliant business women”, that means jack ****. She binned Levein too late, appointed his replacement too late, spent any extra money the had and created a shortfall of £3m and is now championing temporary league reconstruction in what is the most blatant attempt a self preservation I’ve ever seen.

Does anyone really think this would stand up to scrutiny if it wasn’t for the fact it’s being backed by rangers?

[Paisley Hibby]

Tom English can bum her up all he wants as being a “brilliant business women”, that means jack ****. She binned Levein too late, appointed his replacement too late, spent any extra money the had and created a shortfall of £3m and is now championing temporary league reconstruction in what is the most blatant attempt a self preservation I’ve ever seen.

Does anyone really think this would stand up to scrutiny if it wasn’t for the fact it’s being backed by rangers?

Scottish football media have form with this kind of rubbish. She's a "brilliant business woman" in a "wealth off the radar" way 😉

[Waxy]

Scottish football media have form with this kind of rubbish. She's a "brilliant business woman" in a "wealth off the radar" way 😉

Yeh great business. Still paying Craig Levien.

[The 90+2]

Tom English can bum her up all he wants as being a “brilliant business women”, that means jack ****. She binned Levein too late, appointed his replacement too late, spent any extra money the had and created a shortfall of £3m and is now championing temporary league reconstruction in what is the most blatant attempt a self preservation I’ve ever seen.

Does anyone really think this would stand up to scrutiny if it wasn’t for the fact it’s being backed by rangers?

As soon as tomorrow is done and the hun evidence is a load of ***** Hearts are done. Rangers won’t care about them let alone back them. All they have at the moment is hanging on for life on the back of rangers having anything at all on the spfl and even if they do, how do hearts survive relegation?

[The 90+2]

Yeh great business. Still paying Craig Levien.

Managed to get him to take a 50% cut for doing nothing though. What a businesswoman.

[007]

As soon as tomorrow is done and the hun evidence is a load of ***** Hearts are done. Rangers won’t care about them let alone back them. All they have at the moment is hanging on for life on the back of rangers having anything at all on the spfl and even if they do, how do hearts survive relegation?

Even if the Rangers evidence isn't the load of mince we expect it to be, what would happen next? Heads maybe would roll at the SPFL and Rangers would want the vote undone. If that was to happen and they rerun it, there would probably be more than 81% of clubs voting for it given the latest info re when the soonest we're likely to restart. Plus, lower division clubs have been paid their money anyway.

Can't see them getting the null and void they want. Maybe they're just after revenge for their demotion to the 4th tier.

[The Count]

Being Irish i think Tom English thought that the best tactic for his career in Scotland was to veer towards the establishment clubs.Think he has taken it too far now and has lost any credibility.

[The Count]

Being Irish i think Tom English thought that the best tactic for his career in Scotland was to veer towards the establishment clubs.Think he has taken it too far now and has lost any credibility.

Sorry wrong thread ignore

[Kojock]

Managed to get him to take a 50% cut for doing nothing though. What a businesswoman.

Did he take a 50% pay cut though ?? He couldn’t be threatened with article 12.

[Jim44]

Being Irish i think Tom English thought that the best tactic for his career in Scotland was to veer towards the establishment clubs.Think he has taken it too far now and has lost any credibility.


Sorry wrong thread ignore

Don’t apologise, any post that rubbishes English will be welcome on any thread. :greengrin

[The 90+2]

Even if the Rangers evidence isn't the load of mince we expect it to be, what would happen next? Heads maybe would roll at the SPFL and Rangers would want the vote undone. If that was to happen and they rerun it, there would probably be more than 81% of clubs voting for it given the latest info re when the soonest we're likely to restart. Plus, lower division clubs have been paid their money anyway.

Can't see them getting the null and void they want. Maybe they're just after revenge for their demotion to the 4th tier.

I’ve no idea what any endgame is. The couple of them just look like trouble making ********s with their own interests at the forefront. They’re aren’t all of a sudden going to get loads of clubs to side with them to null and void the Prem. The other leagues are done and money has been paid out so they can’t change that regardless.

[The 90+2]

Did he take a 50% pay cut though ?? He couldn’t be threatened with article 12.

Him and the long hair guy took pay cuts when it first came about, their manager took a complete cut.

[Billy Whizz]

Him and the long hair guy took pay cuts when it first came about, their manager took a complete cut.

Deferred cuts?

[The 90+2]

Deferred cuts?

Not sure, I don’t think so. Budge is against deferrals.

[jacomo]

Don’t forget Stendel, who’s genius high pressing cost them 2 goals in 20 minutes against Hamilton and had they not had a man wrongly sent off they’d have seen the game out.

I don’t understand how he’s not copping any flack.


Before the St Mirren game most Hearts supporters who actually follow their team (unlike the keyboard warriors on Kickback who don’t) were despondent, criticising Budge, Stendel, Levein and everyone else. After it they seemed to accept relegation was inevitable.

However, now they think they’ve been offered a lifeline so have circled the wagons, blaming their players or an SPFL ‘conspiracy’ against them.

It’s all so obvious and Budge bears responsibility for giving them licence to do so.

[Ozyhibby]

Before the St Mirren game most Hearts supporters who actually follow their team (unlike the keyboard warriors on Kickback who don’t) were despondent, criticising Budge, Stendel, Levein and everyone else. After it they seemed to accept relegation was inevitable.

However, now they think they’ve been offered a lifeline so have circled the wagons, blaming their players or an SPFL ‘conspiracy’ against them.

It’s all so obvious and Budge bears responsibility for giving them licence to do so.

I’m happy for them to blame everyone else and keep all the failures at Tynecastle.


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[Waxy]

Before the St Mirren game most Hearts supporters who actually follow their team (unlike the keyboard warriors on Kickback who don’t) were despondent, criticising Budge, Stendel, Levein and everyone else. After it they seemed to accept relegation was inevitable.

However, now they think they’ve been offered a lifeline so have circled the wagons, blaming their players or an SPFL ‘conspiracy’ against them.

It’s all so obvious and Budge bears responsibility for giving them licence to do so.

Its ridiculous. Just cant believe clubs would reconstruct the whole league to stop hearts playing in the championship for a season for finishing bottom.
They happily sent Partick and Stranraer down.
No other relegated team has had special treatment like that.

[Eyrie]

Nine clubs pushing to end the season now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52528495

The key quote there is "five said not to have enough players under contract to finish the current campaign" which, as a few of us have pointed out, is the unsolvable problem that means the league cannot be completed on the pitch.

[Billy Whizz]

The key quote there is "five said not to have enough players under contract to finish the current campaign" which, as a few of us have pointed out, is the unsolvable problem that means the league cannot be completed on the pitch.

Wonder the 5 will be?
Hamilton
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Who are likely to be the other 2?

[hibbyfraelibby]

Wonder the 5 will be?
Hamilton
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Who are likely to be the other 2?

St.Mirren and Livi?

[Eyrie]

Wonder the 5 will be?
Hamilton
Kilmarnock
St Johnstone
Who are likely to be the other 2?

There's a list here (https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/international/every-scottish-premiership-player-out-contract-end-month-2608213) which doesn't include loan players.

Livingston, Motherwell, Ross County and St Mirren are the others with a number of players out of contract. So do Hearts, but they have a large enough squad to cope.

[Rumble de Thump]

Hearts captain Steven Naismith says the squad are up against teams who know how to stay up in a relegation fight, while they lack experience (Edinburgh Evening News) (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-captain-steven-naismith-explains-teams-mental-issues-relegation-battle-and-speaks-wage-cuts-him-and-full-squad-2841229).

You were. Now you're going down.

[Billy Whizz]

St.Mirren and Livi?

Think you’re right
Livvi have around 13 out of contract/ loans ending
Killie 19
St Mirren 10
Hamilton 19
Motherwell 12
Ross County 11
St Johnstone 14

[jacomo]

I’m happy for them to blame everyone else and keep all the failures at Tynecastle.


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Oh I agree. That’s what makes this so compelling. Budge has turned scrutiny away from herself and all the fans are lapping it up like idiots.

Let’s be clear - there is no way Hearts should be bottom of the Premier League, given the well known financial advantages they have over most clubs in this division.

‘Successful businesswoman’ has made an absolute mess of running that particular business.

[Ozyhibby]

Think you’re right
Livvi have around 13 out of contract/ loans ending
Killie 19
St Mirren 10
Hamilton 19
Motherwell 12
Ross County 11
St Johnstone 14

All those clubs will be well placed to weather the lockdown if it’s extended. Very small squad left and all on furlough. No training centre costs. Doubt there is much debt there either.


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[mim]

Even if the Rangers evidence isn't the load of mince we expect it to be, what would happen next? Heads maybe would roll at the SPFL and Rangers would want the vote undone. If that was to happen and they rerun it, there would probably be more than 81% of clubs voting for it given the latest info re when the soonest we're likely to restart. Plus, lower division clubs have been paid their money anyway.

Can't see them getting the null and void they want. Maybe they're just after revenge for their demotion to the 4th tier.

Rangers were not demoted to the 4th tier. They went into liquidation.
Sevco were admitted to the 4th tier.

[007]

Rangers were not demoted to the 4th tier. They went into liquidation.
Sevco were admitted to the 4th tier.

You're right. Demotion to the 4th tier is how they see it.

[Kaiser1962]

Even if the Rangers evidence isn't the load of mince we expect it to be, what would happen next? Heads maybe would roll at the SPFL and Rangers would want the vote undone. If that was to happen and they rerun it, there would probably be more than 81% of clubs voting for it given the latest info re when the soonest we're likely to restart. Plus, lower division clubs have been paid their money anyway.

Can't see them getting the null and void they want. Maybe they're just after revenge for their demotion to the 4th tier.

Has The Rangers evidence not been downgraded from "utter corruption" to that which is "unfair"?

[Ozyhibby]

Has The Rangers evidence not been downgraded from "utter corruption" to that which is "unfair"?

Yip, pretty sure they have quietly conceded that.


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[Ozyhibby]

Has The Rangers evidence not been downgraded from "utter corruption" to that which is "unfair"?

Yip, pretty sure they have quietly conceded that.


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[007]

I expect the evidence to show nothing more than lobbying which several clubs have now said is normal.

The supposed WhatsApp evidence will be probably be something like one or two clubs equally as aggrieved as Hearts and Rangers in a WhatsApp group with them and probably whinging amongst themselves and quite likely exaggerating how any discussions on calls went.

Budge was doing it too, she was speaking to numerous clubs. The Falkirk chairman said she was on the phone to him saying something along the lines of "What is the right thing to do?" So was using the for the good of Scottish Football / nobody should be penalised approach. She probably dangled the reconstruction carrot too. He'd have been an easy 'no' to get with Falkirk 1 point behind Raith.

[Bostonhibby]

Has The Rangers evidence not been downgraded from "utter corruption" to that which is "unfair"?Yep, they started thinking they'd found a smoking gun but it's been downgraded to a steaming dog turd on the sole of their shoe. They made it worse by petulantly stamping up and down.

They've got to show it to Mrs doctor Budge sometime before the hearing as well.

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[007]

Yep, they started thinking they'd found a smoking gun but it's been downgraded to a steaming dog turd on the sole of their shoe. They made it worse by petulantly stamping up and down.

They've got to show it to Mrs doctor Budge sometime before the hearing as well.

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Probably had to downgrade when their key piece of evidence turned out to be a fake invoice planted by a Celtic fan.

[chippy]

Rangers were not demoted to the 4th tier. They went into liquidation.
Sevco were admitted to the 4th tier.

Better position than us with longer contracts and expensive squad

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Probably had to downgrade when their key piece of evidence turned out to be a fake invoice planted by a Celtic fan.

It would be brilliant if the official therangers evidence was a rival fan catfishing them

But it would also show how pathetic the spfl is for kowtowing to them without providing any “evidence”

[Col2]

The Times are saying evidence will now be delayed by at least 48 hours...

Funny that...it was so compelling 3-4 weeks ago that they demanded the immediate suspension of the CEO and SPFL lawyer.

I still think this will be about some evidence they seem to think they have about the so called Celtic minded Chairman. Budge will then realise that she is truly screwed and while she thought it might drive a new proposal and vote, in fact it’s all about Rangers and Celtic hatred.

[Kato]

The Times are saying evidence will now be delayed by at least 48 hours...
.

Why so coy?

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[The Count]

We are all trying to save Scottish yet they are playing games to pander to their fans for their own selfish reasons.Yet not one person in the Scottish media has the balls to call it.

[jacomo]

Rangers were not demoted to the 4th tier. They went into liquidation.
Sevco were admitted to the 4th tier.


:agree:

In retrospect, bending the rules to allow the new club straight into the league was a mistake. It did nothing to assuage their righteous anger or encourage any humility.

Likewise, no point bending the rules to accommodate an angry and undeserving Hearts. Just send them down.

[Green_one]

Are new motions allowed at this meeting? For example, following the almost inevitable defeat of the Three Amigos with almost no worthwhile evidence, will someone be able to propose a vote on them bringing the game into disrepute?

In my opinion, if they get less than a 50% vote and certainly if they get less than 25%, they should be hammered. Only ridicule should follow this insane series of events and Hearts are almost as guilty as Rangers. Maybe with a compulsory Anger Management course for Rangers and an English Writing course for Budge.

[JimBHibees]

Find it quite bizarre there was such a big gap between the decision to have this meeting and the meeting taking place on the 12th. If there is any justice this nonsense will be punted out in five minutes.

[JimBHibees]

It would be brilliant if the official therangers evidence was a rival fan catfishing them

But it would also show how pathetic the spfl is for kowtowing to them without providing any “evidence”

Agree they should never allowed a vote on this prior to any evidence being produced. Sets a dangerous precedent that three teams can get together provide no evidence and then get a vote on it.

[Waxy]

:agree:

In retrospect, bending the rules to allow the new club straight into the league was a mistake. It did nothing to assuage their righteous anger or encourage any humility.

Likewise, no point bending the rules to accommodate an angry and undeserving Hearts. Just send them down.
Only some form of corruption will keep them up undeservedly.
This would only bring about animosity towards them from many clubs.
They’d be better accepting their position.

[Onion]

It would be brilliant if the official therangers evidence was a rival fan catfishing them

But it would also show how pathetic the spfl is for kowtowing to them without providing any “evidence”

Agreed. The Rangers evidence is so compelling, so toxic that only one person is allowed to read it at a time. The most devastating material since the late, great Earnest Scribbler scribed his masterpiece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDoDPIpX4E&t=39s

[Heisenberg]

Back page of the Scottish Daily Mail today has a variation of the 14-14-14 model being the go to option for the reconstruction panel with them looking to bring forward their previous timescale for a vote. Surprisingly this appeals to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer :rolleyes:

[Waxy]

Back page of the Scottish Daily Mail today has a variation of the 14-14-14 model being the go to option for the reconstruction panel with them looking to bring forward their previous timescale for a vote. Surprisingly this appeals to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer :rolleyes:
Lets end the top league first and let everyone get their breath first.
There’s too much going on just now to think about reconstruction.

[The 90+2]

Lets end the top league first and let everyone get their breath first.
There’s too much going on just now to think about reconstruction.

That’s what hearts will want. End the league, release their ***** on relegation clauses then reconstruction and a clean slate. Guaranteed it will happen too, their the jammiest of ****s.

[007]

Should end the league but not decide on the structure until we know when football will restart. Only then will we know how many matches can be fitted into the first season back, otherwise we might end up not managing to complete it as well.

[The 90+2]

Should end the league but not decide on the structure until we know when football will restart. Only then will we know how many matches can be fitted into the first season back, otherwise we might end up not managing to complete it as well.

They shouldn’t change the structure regardless. There’s simply no need to and clubs won’t want it.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Should end the league but not decide on the structure until we know when football will restart. Only then will we know how many matches can be fitted into the first season back, otherwise we might end up not managing to complete it as well.

The League should be called on the date the league was scheduled to finish. On that day Hearts become a Championship club with a Championship club's vote. Until the league ends no other structural decisions can be made.

[007]

They shouldn’t change the structure regardless. There’s simply no need to and clubs won’t want it.

I agree it shouldn't be changed but there is obviously going to be a proposal put to the vote. To do the vote now is nuts.

[The 90+2]

I agree it shouldn't be changed but there is obviously going to be a proposal put to the vote. To do the vote now is nuts.

I would prefer they done the vote before they decided how the league finishes. That way if the reconstruction goes through hearts won’t be able to use the relegation release clause on their players and if it doesn’t go through and it’s decided no reconstruction then vote to end the league, they had their chances.

[A Hi-Bee]

Have they no been relegated yet as the worst team in said league for past 15 months

[Heisenberg]

https://twitter.com/kheredine2018/status/1257666926354063360?s=21

14-14-16 which means it’ll need 11-1 in the Prem. Meeting with the Prem clubs on Thursday to discuss.

[SHODAN]

https://twitter.com/kheredine2018/status/1257666926354063360?s=21

14-14-16 which means it’ll need 11-1 in the Prem. Meeting with the Prem clubs on Thursday to discuss.

Introduce playoffs including with the 7th placed team in the Premiership, and expanded (and FAIR) relegation playoffs - maybe.

Flat 14 with 1st-4th into Europe, one relegated and the same playoff system as before - they can get to ****.

[Lee Marvin]

https://twitter.com/kheredine2018/status/1257666926354063360?s=21

14-14-16 which means it’ll need 11-1 in the Prem. Meeting with the Prem clubs on Thursday to discuss.

No way that gets through. It is a horrible option.

Adds more clubs to the structure further diluting money across the board. I do not see how that benefits 90% of the clubs in any way.

Hibs will not vote for that, temporary or permanent. If they do, Dempster is literally off her head.

[The 90+2]

https://twitter.com/kheredine2018/status/1257666926354063360?s=21

14-14-16 which means it’ll need 11-1 in the Prem. Meeting with the Prem clubs on Thursday to discuss.

More clubs in the pyramid = change of payout places throughout the league = needs 11/1 top league to pass.

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