SNP are lying b******s as well !

[greenginger]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minister-dismisses-misleading-claims-on-pensions-by-snp-36lb7dljk

SNP still trying to claim UK would be paying Scottish pensions after independence. :greengrin

[greenlex]

Yet state pensions continue to be paid to ex pats. Strange one.:rolleyes:

[Steven79]

Yet state pensions continue to be paid to ex pats. Strange one.:rolleyes:I don't understand the difference as how is paying a pension to someone that lived in the UK but not lives in France any different to someone that lives in a Independent Scotland.

In my opinion the UK would cease to exist once we left but that's not what they are claiming...

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[grunt]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minister-dismisses-misleading-claims-on-pensions-by-snp-36lb7dljk

SNP still trying to claim UK would be paying Scottish pensions after independence. :greengrin

You're getting upset by an anti-SNP article in The Times?

[Glory Lurker]

Take a share of national debt, you say?

[Paul1642]

That’s because pensions are paid by the current tax payers, not those receiving them (as they paid for the previous generations pension). Basically a big pyramid scheme from what I can gather 😂.

Why would the tax payers of what remain of the UK pay for a separate counties pensions. It’s not like it’s a pot that has had been paid into as you would for private pension. We wouldn’t be paying for the rest of the UKs pensions so it should work out about similar to present for us (depending on our % of pensioners per population compared to the other nations which imagine is similar)

[Jack]

I'm sure it will be one of many things, or everythings, that will be negotiated when the time comes.

I think it's a fairly decent thing for Scotland to have a starting point of saying
Well the UK exchequer pays for all the pensions due to expats and that's what Scottish pensioners will basically become.
rUK will say its your share of pensions.
And so it will be resolved with a bit of give and take.

[Skol]

Yet state pensions continue to be paid to ex pats. Strange one.:rolleyes:

Yeah, cos every ex pat takes the whole tax paying base with them so it’s exactly the same as independence. If you want to believe this nonsense, then fine. But you are in for a shock

[Santa Cruz]

Yet state pensions continue to be paid to ex pats. Strange one.:rolleyes:

Is it correct the payment they receive is frozen when they leave the country and they don't receive an increase?

[James310]

I'm sure it will be one of many things, or everythings, that will be negotiated when the time comes.

I think it's a fairly decent thing for Scotland to have a starting point of saying
Well the UK exchequer pays for all the pensions due to expats and that's what Scottish pensioners will basically become.
rUK will say its your share of pensions.
And so it will be resolved with a bit of give and take.

Independence is not like becoming an ex pat, it's not like retiring to Spain. If England declared Independence would we treat all the English pensioners as ex pats and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would keep paying the pensions? Course not.

At the moment Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland contribute 100% of NI to pay for 100% of pensions, Scotland contributes about 8% of that. If Scotland left then there is no chance 92% of people left will keep paying 100% of pensions. If Scotland leave the tax base leaves, that's not the case now for people retiring to Spain.

There was a FOI released today from the Scottish Government saying nothing has changed from 2014, which is upon Independence the responsibility for paying pensions in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish Government, and why wouldn't it?

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/update_to_the_scottish_governmen?nocache=incoming-1986075#incoming-1986075



Other than confusion I am struggling to see why Ian Blackford brought this up.

https://theferret.scot/treasury-secretary-pensions-uk-independence-false/

[He's here!]

Not sure it counts as a 'lie' but disappointing to see Mike Russell and Michelle Thomson coming out with this sort of guff in an attempt to politicise the Ukraine crisis (although I see Thomson has subsequently apologised):

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19960324.snp-president-michael-russell-utterly-crass-linking-ukrainian-struggle-scottish-independence/

I was actually quite impressed (for a change) by the SNP's Alyn Smith in the Commons the other day when he made clear that the situation was too serious for the SNP to do anything other than support the government.

[Ozyhibby]

While pensions are paid from current revenue, the amount you receive is based on contributions throughout your working life. I would think that anyone individual who has paid all their contributions to the UK all their life would have no problem winning a case against the UK for payment wherever they lived.
It will all be sorted in negotiations and the SG will make the payments once Indy is achieved.


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[Skol]

While pensions are paid from current revenue, the amount you receive is based on contributions throughout your working life. I would think that anyone individual who has paid all their contributions to the UK all their life would have no problem winning a case against the UK for payment wherever they lived.
It will all be sorted in negotiations and the SG will make the payments once Indy is achieved.


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Which of the two options are you saying it will be as you say we can claim from the uk and will get paid by Scotland. Can’t be both. Well if the snp pull that off then they can have my vote.

[Ozyhibby]

Which of the two options are you saying it will be as you say we can claim from the uk and will get paid by Scotland. Can’t be both. Well if the snp pull that off then they can have my vote.

The actuaries will work out what will be due and then a payment will be made to the new SG to help deal with it. The SG will make the payments. It’s not that difficult to work out. There will be all sorts of financial stuff to be negotiated but none of it will affect payments that government has to make, such as wages, pensions, debt interest etc.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Sure I saw something that the amount that would be raised in contributions in Scotland would cover state pension around 3.5 times over.

[James310]

The actuaries will work out what will be due and then a payment will be made to the new SG to help deal with it. The SG will make the payments. It’s not that difficult to work out. There will be all sorts of financial stuff to be negotiated but none of it will affect payments that government has to make, such as wages, pensions, debt interest etc.


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As you say yourself they are paid from current revenues i.e. taxes. As there is no pot then I don't see what they can work out and make a payment from if no pot exists. There is working balance of around a couple of months payment so maybe something from that, but that would be minimal.

Not often I would do this but the SG position is clear at the moment (or was) that pensions will be paid by the SG and that's it. To start saying it will be negotiated or you can sue the UK Government (under what law I have no idea) is maybe not the winning strategy some might think it is.

As the FOI makes clear, there has been no change in policy.

[James310]

Sure I saw something that the amount that would be raised in contributions in Scotland would cover state pension around 3.5 times over.

That's not the case, where is your source for this?

National Insurance pays for more than just pensions, it pays for lots of other benefits as well.

[Ozyhibby]

As you say yourself they are paid from current revenues i.e. taxes. As there is no pot then I don't see what they can work out and make a payment from if no pot exists. There is working balance of around a couple of months payment so maybe something from that, but that would be minimal.

Not often I would do this but the SG position is clear at the moment (or was) that pensions will be paid by the SG and that's it. To start saying it will be negotiated or you can sue the UK Government (under what law I have no idea) is maybe not the winning strategy some might think it is.

As the FOI makes clear, there has been no change in policy.

I agree totally that the SG just needs to say that all pensions will be paid by them and leave it at that. No point conducting negotiations before a vote.
In fact they should offer a pension rise as well. A commitment to bring it up to the EU average should be a key commitment.
Pointless getting into the mechanics of it all.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Is it correct the payment they receive is frozen when they leave the country and they don't receive an increase?

Depends where they move to.

[James310]

Depends where they move to.

Yep,

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

[JeMeSouviens]

UK pensions have nothing to do with citizenship, if you have paid enough NI in your life, you are eligible.

If rUK wants to stop paying pensions to people in iScotland who formerly paid NI in UK they will have to change the rules. Which they may well do, who knows?

Ultimately it’s a pointless argument. iScotland will of course have an ongoing need to pay its own pensions and will do so as required.

[greenginger]

Take a share of national debt, you say?

Yep , Scotland will have to take their share.

Some might even suggest the Barnet formula should be applied, extra 10% or thereabouts on to Scotland’s share. :wink:

[matty_f]

Quite happy to pay for Scottish pensions in an independent Scotland if it meant we had independence.

[James310]

When Nicola Sturgeon published her plans for pensions in a separate Scottish state, she assumed that the full cost of paying pensions would be met by the Scottish taxpayer.

Nothing at all about UK Government paying for them or any kind of settlement etc. I don't see any world where rUK pays 100% of pensions with 92% of revenue.

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20161005185024/http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/09/3492/0

[greenginger]

You're getting upset by an anti-SNP article in The Times?


I’m not the least upset !

[Radium]

When Nicola Sturgeon published her plans for pensions in a separate Scottish state, she assumed that the full cost of paying pensions would be met by the Scottish taxpayer.

Nothing at all about UK Government paying for them or any kind of settlement etc. I don't see any world where rUK pays 100% of pensions with 92% of revenue.

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20161005185024/http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/09/3492/0

What is the criteria for receiving the pension? Assuming you have contributed and have met a minimum threshold, would it be citizenship/ passport.

It is in the gift of the Westminster government to change the rules but currently they pay pensions to UK contributors who live abroad and have no issue paying pensions to UK contributors who hold dual nationality, NI being an example.

It’s badly thought out but Westminster governments of all creeds have made miscalculations through the years based on things always going their way.

As others have said, it would be about negotiating the financial settlement


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[JeMeSouviens]

What is the criteria for receiving the pension? Assuming you have contributed and have met a minimum threshold, would it be citizenship/ passport.

It is in the gift of the Westminster government to change the rules but currently they pay pensions to UK contributors who live abroad and have no issue paying pensions to UK contributors who hold dual nationality, NI being an example.

It’s badly thought out but Westminster governments of all creeds have made miscalculations through the years based on things always going their way.

As others have said, it would be about negotiating the financial settlement


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They have no difficulty paying to single nationalities whose nationality is not British! If they worked and paid NI here, that’s enough.

[James310]

What is the criteria for receiving the pension? Assuming you have contributed and have met a minimum threshold, would it be citizenship/ passport.

It is in the gift of the Westminster government to change the rules but currently they pay pensions to UK contributors who live abroad and have no issue paying pensions to UK contributors who hold dual nationality, NI being an example.

It’s badly thought out but Westminster governments of all creeds have made miscalculations through the years based on things always going their way.

As others have said, it would be about negotiating the financial settlement


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The UK as we know it will cease to exist, pensions are a benefit and they can change the rules tomorrow if they wanted, decrease it or increase it or change the age you get it as they have done in the past.

The key thing is the tax base, if pensions cost the UK say £100BN a year now and that's made up contributions of say Scotland £10BN, Wales £5BN, NI £5BN and England £80BN then if Scotland leaves the UK they take their £10BN with them, leaving £90BN in contributions. To suggest those left pay higher taxes to still pay the total bill of £100BN and the pensions of what are essentially people in a foreign country now is just not something I ever see happening and the current Pensions Minister has said that. Remember there is no pot, it's all funded from current taxation.

Things change though, who knows where we will be. I just don't understand why it was Ian Blackford that brought this up again as a point to debate.

[Radium]

The UK as we know it will cease to exist, pensions are a benefit and they can change the rules tomorrow if they wanted, decrease it or increase it or change the age you get it as they have done in the past.

The key thing is the tax base, if pensions cost the UK say £100BN a year now and that's made up contributions of say Scotland £10BN, Wales £5BN, NI £5BN and England £80BN then if Scotland leaves the UK they take their £10BN with them, leaving £90BN in contributions. To suggest those left pay higher taxes to still pay the total bill of £100BN and the pensions of what are essentially people in a foreign country now is just not something I ever see happening and the current Pensions Minister has said that. Remember there is no pot, it's all funded from current taxation.

Things change though, who knows where we will be. I just don't understand why it was Ian Blackford that brought this up again as a point to debate.

… so the negotiations have begun, £10 BN you say.

In essence the consequences for votes in Scotland or Ireland regarding independence are that everything needs to be evaluated and allocated.

There’s a narrative that says that Scotland walks away penniless because it has no share in the benefits of the UK. Bringing this up to my mind questions that thinking.

You’re right, at least two new systems will have to be put in place. Neither will be the UK Treasury.


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[grunt]

I’m not the least upset !
The wording of the thread suggested otherwise.

[Ozyhibby]

The UK as we know it will cease to exist, pensions are a benefit and they can change the rules tomorrow if they wanted, decrease it or increase it or change the age you get it as they have done in the past.

The key thing is the tax base, if pensions cost the UK say £100BN a year now and that's made up contributions of say Scotland £10BN, Wales £5BN, NI £5BN and England £80BN then if Scotland leaves the UK they take their £10BN with them, leaving £90BN in contributions. To suggest those left pay higher taxes to still pay the total bill of £100BN and the pensions of what are essentially people in a foreign country now is just not something I ever see happening and the current Pensions Minister has said that. Remember there is no pot, it's all funded from current taxation.

Things change though, who knows where we will be. I just don't understand why it was Ian Blackford that brought this up again as a point to debate.

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.


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[WeeRussell]

I’m not the least upset !

No, strangely seemingly quite excited by another definite snag, which is definitely going to be a huge issue we can’t get round, that must have stopped every other country who’s ever considered independence in the past going through with it.

Still, at least it got the hibs.netter together reps active again 👍

[Hibrandenburg]

As you say yourself they are paid from current revenues i.e. taxes. As there is no pot then I don't see what they can work out and make a payment from if no pot exists. There is working balance of around a couple of months payment so maybe something from that, but that would be minimal.

Not often I would do this but the SG position is clear at the moment (or was) that pensions will be paid by the SG and that's it. To start saying it will be negotiated or you can sue the UK Government (under what law I have no idea) is maybe not the winning strategy some might think it is.

As the FOI makes clear, there has been no change in policy.Funny that the EU and UK still collaborate on pensions for citizens who have paid into UK and EU schemes despite the UK leaving the EU.

So we're not just too wee, too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs, we're now too old.

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[greenlex]

Yeah, cos every ex pat takes the whole tax paying base with them so it’s exactly the same as independence. If you want to believe this nonsense, then fine. But you are in for a shock
I’m not really in for a shock am I? Come independence up here I’m willing to bet anything you like that the pension I get will be at least equal to what the rUK will be getting. It’ll be paid for in exactly the same way it would be just now too. I certainly believe that. Might even be more.Other forward thinking European countries seem to manage it.

[James310]

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.


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I said the UK as we know it.

[James310]

Funny that the EU and UK still collaborate on pensions for citizens who have paid into UK and EU schemes despite the UK leaving the EU.

So we're not just too wee, too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs, we're now too old.

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What's so difficult about an independent Scotland paying it's pensions for the people of an independent Scotland? That's what I am saying will happen.

If you think the rUK will somehow keep paying it and increase the taxes of the people left in rUK to fund it and that's a message you think would work well in any campaign then crack on.

[Skol]

I’m not really in for a shock am I? Come independence up here I’m willing to bet anything you like that the pension I get will be at least equal to what the rUK will be getting. It’ll be paid for in exactly the same way it would be just now too. I certainly believe that. Might even be more.Other forward thinking European countries seem to manage it.

You want to bet that your pension will be paid by the U.K. government?

[Skol]

I guess my point is that Scotland will pay Scottish pensions. It will be part of an overall agreement but in reality we take the tax payers and so we pay the pension at whatever level can be afforded. Other than that there is nothing to agree

This nonsense about Westminster being liable legally is just setting up a grievance to wind people up

[ronaldo7]

Sure I saw something that the amount that would be raised in contributions in Scotland would cover state pension around 3.5 times over.

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021

[Glory Lurker]

Yep , Scotland will have to take their share.

Some might even suggest the Barnet formula should be applied, extra 10% or thereabouts on to Scotland’s share. :wink:

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.

[degenerated]

That’s because pensions are paid by the current tax payers, not those receiving them (as they paid for the previous generations pension). Basically a big pyramid scheme from what I can gather [emoji23].

Why would the tax payers of what remain of the UK pay for a separate counties pensions. It’s not like it’s a pot that has had been paid into as you would for private pension. We wouldn’t be paying for the rest of the UKs pensions so it should work out about similar to present for us (depending on our % of pensioners per population compared to the other nations which imagine is similar)But they are based on historic contributions. Doesn't matter where they are paid from , the UK has an obligation to honour that.

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[ronaldo7]

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.

Correct. We could always take a share of the palaces.

[danhibees1875]

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.


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Not sure what Wales think of that. :wink:

"as we know it" makes it make sense though - the UK would change significantly if Scotland left.

The pension question is a good one and the example of an expat having contributed to NI then leaving still getting his pension is an interesting example, but I think it boils down to the difference between a person leaving the UK and a tax base leaving the UK.

There's no pot of money waiting to pay our pensions (I'm 30 so doubt I'll see any pension regardless!), it's done on a cash in and out basis with the current tax base paying for the current pensioners. I think it makes sense that when a tax base leaves (Scotland) then pensioners from that tax base wouldn't receive the pension from the remainder of the tax base.

As already mentioned though iScotland would then have its own tax base in its own right to pay for the pensioners here so the net result isn't that different to where we are now anyway (just a realisation of the notional deficit that'll exist between pension contributions and payments that are Scotland specific, and any subsequent consequences; reduced benefits, higher tax, or increased debt).

[James310]

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021

Those 'other benefits' cost £13BN. Universal Credit for example is £3BN, housing benefit is £1.3BN and so on.

But that's for another day.

[ronaldo7]

Those 'other benefits' cost £13BN. Universal Credit for example is £3BN, housing benefit is £1.3BN and so on.

But that's for another day.

Im not sure if you've checked the numbers, but are those figures I've posted correct re the pensions? That's after all what the thread was started about. 👍

[James310]

Im not sure if you've checked the numbers, but are those figures I've posted correct re the pensions? That's after all what the thread was started about. 👍

Yes 100% correct, if you believe GERs.

[ronaldo7]

Yes 100% correct, if you believe GERs.

Thanks. 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021

Thanks Ron. I knew there was a surplus. I over estimated it but a surplus nonetheless!! Mon the Scottish pension 😁

[degenerated]

While pensions are paid from current revenue, the amount you receive is based on contributions throughout your working life. I would think that anyone individual who has paid all their contributions to the UK all their life would have no problem winning a case against the UK for payment wherever they lived.
It will all be sorted in negotiations and the SG will make the payments once Indy is achieved.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRos Altmann doesn't appear to think it's much of an issue. She may be a Tory but as pension experts go there aren't many more knowledgeable in the UK than her.



25624

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[James310]

Thanks Ron. I knew there was a surplus. I over estimated it but a surplus nonetheless!! Mon the Scottish pension 😁

It's only a surplus when you don't pay any other benefits that NI pays for! I don't think we will stop paying housing benefit, Universal Credits etc.

[Ozyhibby]

It's only a surplus when you don't pay any other benefits that NI pays for! I don't think we will stop paying housing benefit, Universal Credits etc.

Correct. And just like housing benefit and UC, we will continue to pay pensions. Some will continue to try scare pensioners though.

I think housing benefit is rolled into UC now?


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[JeMeSouviens]

It's weird that resident Unionists now seem to be arguing that the Scottish NI contributions aren't large enough to sustain a bunch of defined benefits when they themselves started off arguing that NI doesn't specifically pay for any benefit and is just another part of general taxation. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Anyway, money is a bit like hibs.net accounts made up of <biblical first name><bunch of numbers>, you can always magic up some more provided you don't overdo it. :wink:

[lord bunberry]

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.

Exactly, if the UK refuse to pay pensions then Scotland could refuse to pay its share of the debt. There will be negotiations after a yes vote, it won’t just be a clean break.


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[James310]

Anyway, money is a bit like hibs.net accounts made up of <biblical first name><bunch of numbers>, you can always magic up some more provided you don't overdo it. :wink:

We can start trading personal insults if you like but the admins would probably prefer we keep it in topic. Feel free to put me on ignore.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,pensions-in-an-independent-scotland-its-complicated

Just yesterday!

https://fraserofallander.org/who-pays-the-state-pension-in-an-independent-scotland/

And the fraser of allender article

[WeeRussell]

Ros Altmann doesn't appear to think it's much of an issue. She may be a Tory but as pension experts go there aren't many more knowledgeable in the UK than her.



25624

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But does she want to bet on that?

[degenerated]

But does she want to bet on that?Probably :greengrin

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[Moulin Yarns]

Further to the conversation on pension. I and others mentioned that NI contributions are more than enough to cover pensions, however it turns out that they are not ring-fenced, so other income could also be used to increase scottish pensions, while the NI contributions can also be used for other purposes.


Glad that has been cleared up.

[Skol]

Further to the conversation on pension. I and others mentioned that NI contributions are more than enough to cover pensions, however it turns out that they are not ring-fenced, so other income could also be used to increase scottish pensions, while the NI contributions can also be used for other purposes.


Glad that has been cleared up.
It would be helpful if blackford took that line rather than telling us the U.K. will pay Scottish pensions

[Jack]

It would be helpful if blackford took that line rather than telling us the U.K. will pay Scottish pensions

He's just trolling his unionist opposition. Seems he's quite good at it!

[Keith_M]

I guess my point is that Scotland will pay Scottish pensions. It will be part of an overall agreement but in reality we take the tax payers and so we pay the pension at whatever level can be afforded. Other than that there is nothing to agree

...


That would probably be the case but i don't think it's that straightforward.

It could be argued that if the rest of the UK has no responsibility to pay back the pension money paid by Scottish taxpayers, as we're no longer British, then why should Scotland have a responsibility to pay part of the 'British' national debt.

It's probably just part of the pre-negotiations stuff, like saying 'if we don't get what we want, you can stuff the share of national debt'.

[Keith_M]

Seeing as we're discussing the SNP again, has anybody mentioned that twat James Dornan yet? I often wonder what he's going to come up with next in his list of fairytale grievances.



The toilets are broken in the local Shamrock Irish Theme Pub and they can't get a plumber to fix them till next week? Obvious case of anti-Irish racism among all local plumbers in Scotland.

Shameful!!!! :grr:

[greenginger]

That would probably be the case but i don't think it's that straightforward.

It could be argued that if the rest of the UK has no responsibility to pay back the pension money paid by Scottish taxpayers, as we're no longer British, then why should Scotland have a responsibility to pay part of the 'British' national debt.

It's probably just part of the pre-negotiations stuff, like saying 'if we don't get what we want, you can stuff the share of national debt'.

The pension money paid by Scottish tax payers has already been paid back . It gets paid in pensions to Scots every month.

The UK national debt has been run up over many years on infrastructure over the whole Uk, health service , fighting covid etc. etc.

We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.

I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.

[grunt]

We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.

I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.We'll be fine. You just have to believe more.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seeing as we're discussing the SNP again, has anybody mentioned that twat James Dornan yet? I often wonder what he's going to come up with next in his list of fairytale grievances.



The toilets are broken in the local Shamrock Irish Theme Pub and they can't get a plumber to fix them till next week? Obvious case of anti-Irish racism among all local plumbers in Scotland.

Shameful!!!! :grr:

:rolleyes:

If anyone would make you think the SNP are heading down the same cul de sac of complacency and creeping ineptitude that ScotLab have ended up in it's him.

To be fair, he's not so much of a lying ******* as just a prick.

[JeMeSouviens]

The pension money paid by Scottish tax payers has already been paid back . It gets paid in pensions to Scots every month.

The UK national debt has been run up over many years on infrastructure over the whole Uk, health service , fighting covid etc. etc.

We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.

I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.

Wow, up until this point I assumed you were an rUK-based taxpayer that didn't want to lose out in divorce.

But, you are actually looking for your own country to be shafted? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

The pension money paid by Scottish tax payers has already been paid back . It gets paid in pensions to Scots every month.

The UK national debt has been run up over many years on infrastructure over the whole Uk, health service , fighting covid etc. etc.

We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.

I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.

I doubt the rUK will ban all EU imports.


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[JeMeSouviens]

The pension money paid by Scottish tax payers has already been paid back . It gets paid in pensions to Scots every month.

The UK national debt has been run up over many years on infrastructure over the whole Uk, health service , fighting covid etc. etc.

We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.

I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.

btw, there is no mechanism to share out the debt. As rUK will be the continuing state it will be fully liable, the Treasury made that clear in 2014. The Scottish government were offering "solidarity payments" in lieu of a share of debt which seems like the right thing to do. Alternatively, one could say rUK has had plenty of value from Scottish natural assets over the years, isn't that enough?

iScotland fast tracked into the EEA/customs union by way of an association agreement on the way to EU membership would be subject to all the same trade restrictions as the rest of Europe with the UK. Trade with rUK is going to be painful, there's no getting round that. Equally, there's no way for rUK to make it "especially hard" for Scotland. Which given their Brexit trade woes in general, would be a fairly self defeating thing anyway?

[Ozyhibby]

Trade is sorted for the next indyref. Everyone knows exactly what the relationship will be. It’s not great due to brexit but the advantages of accessing the larger EU market will outweigh the downsides in the medium/long term. You only have to look at how Ireland moved their trade away from UK and thrived because of it.


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[ronaldo7]

Trade is sorted for the next indyref. Everyone knows exactly what the relationship will be. It’s not great due to brexit but the advantages of accessing the larger EU market will outweigh the downsides in the medium/long term. You only have to look at how Ireland moved their trade away from UK and thrived because of it.


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Just look at the new routes from Irish ports, bypassing the UK. It didn't take more than a year either. The Welsh ports are now in decline.

[Keith_M]

:rolleyes:

If anyone would make you think the SNP are heading down the same cul de sac of complacency and creeping ineptitude that ScotLab have ended up in it's him.

To be fair, he's not so much of a lying ******* as just a prick.


I can't stand the guy, but sadly he's my local MSP.

And you're right, he really reminds me of the prats that were in charge of Monklands Council. They were so bad for so long that the whole Council area was dismantled.

[Pretty Boy]

This is an interesting thread from well known 'yoon' Andy Wightman on why the failures on land reform, specifically land taxes, are so damaging:

https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1499482350928994309?t=keus9Xj0jvlAU8olnWRsOA&s=19

This is the kind of thing the ruling govt should be challenged on when discussing their record as opposed to fairy stories about pensions.

[James310]

This is an interesting thread from well known 'yoon' Andy Wightman on why the failures on land reform, specifically land taxes, are so damaging:

https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1499482350928994309?t=keus9Xj0jvlAU8olnWRsOA&s=19

This is the kind of thing the ruling govt should be challenged on when discussing their record as opposed to fairy stories about pensions.

Wightman isn't a "Yoon" he is a "Nat" and ex Green MSP. One of a few politicians that was respected across the Parliament for his work on land reform. He has written a number of books on it.

His resignation letter on why he left the Greens is worth a read.

https://andywightman.scot/archives/4634

[Pretty Boy]

Wightman isn't a "Yoon" he is a "Nat" and ex Green MSP. One of a few politicians that was respected across the Parliament for his work on land reform. He has written a number of books on it.

His resignation letter on why he left the Greens is worth a read.

https://andywightman.scot/archives/4634

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post.

[James310]

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post.

Ah, ok apologies. I did, you can never be so sure these days! He has always been someone that is free of thinking, which is why I think he was admired so much. A loss for the Parliament especially when you look at some of the parliamentarians we have today, and that's across all parties, the standard is poor.

[Ozyhibby]

This is an interesting thread from well known 'yoon' Andy Wightman on why the failures on land reform, specifically land taxes, are so damaging:

https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1499482350928994309?t=keus9Xj0jvlAU8olnWRsOA&s=19

This is the kind of thing the ruling govt should be challenged on when discussing their record as opposed to fairy stories about pensions.

With an office in Orchard Brae House you would think the Scotsman would be all over this story.[emoji23]


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[degenerated]

With an office in Orchard Brae House you would think the Scotsman would be all over this story.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe Scotsman are too busy tying themselves in knots just now.2563325634

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[Ozyhibby]

The Scotsman are too busy tying themselves in knots just now.2563325634

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To be fair, I’ve seen people on both sides of the debate trying to find an angle on this war that proves their originally held views to be true. The war in Ukraine does not make Scottish independence any more or less of a good idea. Trying to tie it to this issue is idiotic.


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[Santa Cruz]

Wightman isn't a "Yoon" he is a "Nat" and ex Green MSP. One of a few politicians that was respected across the Parliament for his work on land reform. He has written a number of books on it.

His resignation letter on why he left the Greens is worth a read.

https://andywightman.scot/archives/4634

That was worth reading, Thanks for posting. Liked this bit.

I have always been clear that the job of an MSP is threefold: to represent constituents on matters within the devolved competence of the Parliament, to hold the Scottish Government to account for their decisions, and to scrutinise legislation and make laws for the people of Scotland. MSPs are representatives of the people, not delegates of political parties.

[WeeRussell]

The Scotsman are too busy tying themselves in knots just now.2563325634

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Beggars belief indeed. Well, it used to with the Scotsman..

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minister-dismisses-misleading-claims-on-pensions-by-snp-36lb7dljk

SNP still trying to claim UK would be paying Scottish pensions after independence. :greengrin

Well, yeah... People in the (then) Irish Free State continued to claim a UK state pension as they'd paid into the UK system and were entitled to one. I'm no fan of the SNP but confused how this makes them lying *******s.

[majorhibs]

As each & every politician lies hugely. Some just more than others. Tories for example, if justice was applied, wouldn’t fit the bill.each & every one of them lies through their teeth shamelessly. Nothing more disgusting in the UK than a disgusting tory imo.

[Keith_M]

Well, yeah... People in the (then) Irish Free State continued to claim a UK state pension as they'd paid into the UK system and were entitled to one. I'm no fan of the SNP but confused how this makes them lying *******s.


You're not the only one.

[Just Alf]

Well, yeah... People in the (then) Irish Free State continued to claim a UK state pension as they'd paid into the UK system and were entitled to one. I'm no fan of the SNP but confused how this makes them lying *******s.This was exactly the position of the UK DWP, there was arguments at the time and they only confirmed about a day before the vote (there was another argument about why they delayed releasing the letter confirming)

There was also discussions by the SNP at the time that they could envision taking on the responsibility of making the payments going forward as part of a negotiatiated settlement (we wouldn't need 10% of trident or the aircraft carriers etc)

If you could find it, there was excellent discussions at the time on the indy thread in here!
(Including a scan of the DWP announcement letter)

[greenginger]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/law-officer-advice-around-competence-of-indyref2-bill-not-in-public-interest-3590431

Can anyone explain why it’s not in our interest to know what legal advice our Scottish Government, who promised transparency and openness, have received about the legality of holding their own indyref 2 ?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/law-officer-advice-around-competence-of-indyref2-bill-not-in-public-interest-3590431

Can anyone explain why it’s not in our interest to know what legal advice our Scottish Government, who promised transparency and openness, have received about the legality of holding their own indyref 2 ?

What does the rest of the article say??

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/law-officer-advice-around-competence-of-indyref2-bill-not-in-public-interest-3590431

Can anyone explain why it’s not in our interest to know what legal advice our Scottish Government, who promised transparency and openness, have received about the legality of holding their own indyref 2 ?

Govt never publishes legal advice. If you want some legal advice, you should get your own.


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[greenginger]

Govt never publishes legal advice. If you want some legal advice, you should get your own.


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The reason Sturgeon gave for not revealing what the advice was , that it was not in public interest to know, not that they don’t reveal legal advice.

Do you seriously believe that had the advice received been positive it would have been kept from us, the tax payers.

[greenginger]

Govt never publishes legal advice. If you want some legal advice, you should get your own.


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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sturgeon-salmond-scottish-government-legal-advice-b1810191.html

Don’t think that’s quite accurate .

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sturgeon-salmond-scottish-government-legal-advice-b1810191.html

Don’t think that’s quite accurate .

Well, bring about a no confidence motion and you can force them to reveal this legal advice as well.


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[greenginger]

Well, bring about a no confidence motion and you can force them to reveal this legal advice as well.


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No need to , it’s obvious the advice was negative.

[degenerated]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sturgeon-salmond-scottish-government-legal-advice-b1810191.html

Don’t think that’s quite accurate .There isn't an inquiry or a legal case around the referendum bill so they have no need to publish it.

[Ozyhibby]

No need to , it’s obvious the advice was negative.

There you go then. What’s the problem?


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[degenerated]

There you go then. What’s the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat seems to have cleared that up then :hilarious

[greenginger]

The problem is theScottish Government is pressing ahead with plans for a new indyref.

This is no doubt cost us tax payers , and if they have been told holding their own indyref was not within the powers of the Scottish assemble, there could be big problems.

If Nicola’s paying for this planning out her own purse or the SNP are using their own funds fair enough, but I’m sure it’s us tax payers who will pay for the SNP’s illegal posturing.

[degenerated]

The problem is theScottish Government is pressing ahead with plans for a new indyref.

This is no doubt cost us tax payers , and if they have been told holding their own indyref was not within the powers of the Scottish assemble, there could be big problems.

If Nicola’s paying for this planning out her own purse or the SNP are using their own funds fair enough, but I’m sure it’s us tax payers who will pay for the SNP’s illegal posturing.Us tax payers instructed her to proceed with this, that why we elected a pro independence government.

[Callum_62]

Us tax payers instructed her to proceed with this, that why we elected a pro independence government.Yeah but they don't have a super dooper ultra majority so that's doesnt count

Or something

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[greenginger]

Us tax payers instructed her to proceed with this, that why we elected a pro independence government.

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.

[degenerated]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.That doesn't matter a jot.

[grunt]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.
Nevertheless, there's a pro-indy majority of MSPs in the Parliament. That must be really annoying, eh?

[Just Alf]

That doesn't matter a jot. only if you are undemocratic...

Just look at all the hoops being jumped through, the twists and turns etc in support of Brexit... that's not even taking onto account we ended up with a much harder version than the vote had decided on.

[Ozyhibby]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.

Actually, on the party list vote, a majority voted for Indy parties.


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[Hibrandenburg]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.That might actually mean something if all Lib Dem and Labour voters were pro union.

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[greenginger]

Nevertheless, there's a pro-indy majority of MSPs in the Parliament. That must be really annoying, eh?

Not really as any indyref that might take place one day will be decided on overall votes.

[degenerated]

Not really as any indyref that might take place one day will be decided on overall votes.Well what are you worried about then?

[greenginger]

Actually, on the party list vote, a majority voted for Indy parties.


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Second vote counts for nothing. You only get one vote in a referendum.

[greenginger]

Well what are you worried about then?

Worried , who’s worried , I ain’t been worried since 21/5/2016 90+2 to final whistle :greengrin

I just don’t think tax payers money should be spent on what’s looks like an illegal program .

[Jack]

How much is Gove and his departments spending on his role as defender of the union?

[Moulin Yarns]

The problem is theScottish Government is pressing ahead with plans for a new indyref.

This is no doubt cost us tax payers , and if they have been told holding their own indyref was not within the powers of the Scottish assemble, there could be big problems.

If Nicola’s paying for this planning out her own purse or the SNP are using their own funds fair enough, but I’m sure it’s us tax payers who will pay for the SNP’s illegal posturing.

Can you tell me more about the Scottish assembly?

[Moulin Yarns]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.

Not true. I know it wasn't huge, but all votes taken together, even accounting for the unionist tactical voting, the pro independence parties had around 40,000 majority.

Don't believe me? No worries I'll check the spreadsheet I did at the time. 😉

[majorhibs]

There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.

If Scotland didnae have something like 20 or 30ish percent total balloons who vote for UJ flag due to they’re thick supportin sevco & poppy theives a very different picture would be painted.

[greenginger]

Not true. I know it wasn't huge, but all votes taken together, even accounting for the unionist tactical voting, the pro independence parties had around 40,000 majority.

Don't believe me? No worries I'll check the spreadsheet I did at the time. 😉

Thats counting two votes each , yeah ?

A lot of second votes going to Greens from virtue signalling voters who obviously never read the small print in their manifesto .

[WeeRussell]

Thats counting two votes each , yeah ?

A lot of second votes going to Greens from virtue signalling voters who obviously never read the small print in their manifesto .

You do realise you make yourself and your already very much toiling argument look dafter by desperately trying to twist things into your terms, rather than just backing down when proved wrong?

[greenginger]

You do realise you make yourself and your already very much toiling argument look dafter by desperately trying to twist things into your terms, rather than just backing down when proved wrong?

Who has been proved wrong . :confused:

I said there here were more votes for Unionist parties than Indy parties at the last election.

First votes only as you don’t get two votes in a referendum.

The figures are , Lib Dem’s, Labour, and conservative. 50.4 % of votes cast.

SNP and Greens 49 % of votes cast.

[degenerated]

Who has been proved wrong . :confused:

I said there here were more votes for Unionist parties than Indy parties at the last election.

First votes only as you don’t get two votes in a referendum.

The figures are , Lib Dem’s, Labour, and conservative. 50.4 % of votes cast.

SNP and Greens 49 % of votes cast.If you don't like the results based on the system in place then just ignore them and make up some other arbitrary method of determining the validity of government.

[Ozyhibby]

Who has been proved wrong . :confused:

I said there here were more votes for Unionist parties than Indy parties at the last election.

First votes only as you don’t get two votes in a referendum.

The figures are , Lib Dem’s, Labour, and conservative. 50.4 % of votes cast.

SNP and Greens 49 % of votes cast.

There isn’t a first vote or second vote. There are two votes for two different things. There is a vote for an individual who you would like to represent you and then there is a vote for a party you align with.
More people aligned with Indy parties.


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[greenginger]

There isn’t a first vote or second vote. There are two votes for two different things. There is a vote for an individual who you would like to represent you and then there is a vote for a party you align with.
More people aligned with Indy parties.


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https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/info/210600/elections_and_voting/11920/scottish_parliamentary_election

They are described in official documents as first and second votes ( see para 5 )

Do you really think someone who voted for labour, lib-dem, or conservative in the first vote and greens in the second vote are Indy supporters ?

[Just Alf]

https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/info/210600/elections_and_voting/11920/scottish_parliamentary_election

They are described in official documents as first and second votes ( see para 5 )

Do you really think someone who voted for labour, lib-dem, or conservative in the first vote and greens in the second vote are Indy supporters ?My mum and dad did and are

[Moulin Yarns]

Who has been proved wrong . :confused:

I said there here were more votes for Unionist parties than Indy parties at the last election.

First votes only as you don’t get two votes in a referendum.

The figures are , Lib Dem’s, Labour, and conservative. 50.4 % of votes cast.

SNP and Greens 49 % of votes cast.

What I did was divide the total votes by 2 to take account of this. Unionists lost 😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/info/210600/elections_and_voting/11920/scottish_parliamentary_election

They are described in official documents as first and second votes ( see para 5 )

Do you really think someone who voted for labour, lib-dem, or conservative in the first vote and greens in the second vote are Indy supporters ?

Of course, why not? If you have a good constituency MSP that you think does a good job then you may want to keep them. However, on the list vote you vote for the party that best fits your goals.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think it's fair to say now and the last 10 years, God knows why but Scotland has been split roughly 50/50 on independence. Probably around 40% either way aren't budging, it's the middle where its won or lost. Boris priti and other such evil entities, can surely only help the cause though

[lapsedhibee]

I think it's fair to say now and the last 10 years, God knows why but Scotland has been split roughly 50/50 on independence. Probably around 40% either way aren't budging, it's the middle where its won or lost. Boris priti and other such evil entities, can surely only help the cause though

Not sure if Dorries being unable to spell Ukraine counts as evil, but surely she's also putting in a great shift for the Indy cause.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it's fair to say now and the last 10 years, God knows why but Scotland has been split roughly 50/50 on independence. Probably around 40% either way aren't budging, it's the middle where its won or lost. Boris priti and other such evil entities, can surely only help the cause though

I don’t think things have really moved much at all since 2014. The change from 55-45 to the 50-50 we have just now is likely just the demographics moving slowly towards Indy.
It’s why I think the SNP policy of being patient is the right one for now. If everything else stays the same then it’s moving the right way. I’m not seeing any game changing moves by unionists just now so we should just wait it out till the time is right.


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[grunt]

A lot of second votes going to Greens from virtue signalling voters who obviously never read the small print in their manifesto .
So second votes for Greens is virtue signalling eh?

[Moulin Yarns]

So second votes for Greens is virtue signalling eh?

Unlike all the 2nd votes given by Labour and libdems to the tories of course, they were all OK

[Kato]

Unlike all the 2nd votes given by Labour and libdems to the tories of course, they were all OKThat is "lack of virtue" signalling.

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[greenginger]

Unlike all the 2nd votes given by Labour and libdems to the tories of course, they were all OK

Did they get any second votes , apart from people who gave them their first vote ?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did they get any second votes , apart from people who gave them their first vote ?

You seriously believe that there was no tactical voting by parties other than the SNP and Greens?!

The Conservatives got 45,000 more votes on the list than they got as first votes. I wonder how that happened 🤔😁

Labour had 100,000 less list votes!!! Libdems 50,000 less

[Ozyhibby]

You seriously believe that there was no tactical voting by parties other than the SNP and Greens?!

The Conservatives got 45,000 more votes on the list than they got as first votes. I wonder how that happened [emoji848][emoji16]

Labour had 100,000 less list votes!!! Libdems 50,000 less

And Alex Cole Hamilton is just a really popular guy in Corstorphine.[emoji6][emoji23]


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[greenginger]

You seriously believe that there was no tactical voting by parties other than the SNP and Greens?!

The Conservatives got 45,000 more votes on the list than they got as first votes. I wonder how that happened 🤔😁

Labour had 100,000 less list votes!!! Libdems 50,000 less

By my calculation 105,000 labour and libdems voters switched to the greens in the list vote

Of course it might be the case that some voters didn’t select a list candidate.

Do you know what the difference between candidate and list voter numbers were for the SNP and Greens ?

[Moulin Yarns]

By my calculation 105,000 labour and libdems voters switched to the greens in the list vote

Of course it might be the case that some voters didn’t select a list candidate.

Do you know what the difference between candidate and list voter numbers were for the SNP and Greens ?

Yes. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

By my calculation 105,000 labour and libdems voters switched to the greens in the list vote

Of course it might be the case that some voters didn’t select a list candidate.

Do you know what the difference between candidate and list voter numbers were for the SNP and Greens ?

It's important to remember that the Greens didn't field candidates in all constituencies.

The SNP list vote is 200,000 less than constituency vote and the Greens list vote is 190,000 more than their constituency vote.

Interesting points on the 2 votes, 6,000 more list votes overall than constituency votes.

[JeMeSouviens]

By my calculation 105,000 labour and libdems voters switched to the greens in the list vote

Of course it might be the case that some voters didn’t select a list candidate.

Do you know what the difference between candidate and list voter numbers were for the SNP and Greens ?

How the hell have you calculated that? :confused:

Constituency - Con+Lab+Lib = 50.4%
List - Con+Lab+Lib = 49.5%

Constituency - SNP+Grn = 49.0%
List - SNP+Grn = 48.5%

Looks like intra-nat and intra-unionist switching to me?


As others have said, the List vote seems a more reliable indicator as it removes local candidate effects and everybody is standing everywhere.

So, loathe as I am to lump in Salmond's vote, but needs must - SNP+Grn+Alba = 50.2%

Nat majority :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Is this the new SG-bashing thread? The other one has gone quiet :greengrin

If so....

https://nationaluglymugs.org/2022/03/03/num-and-scot-pep-a-letter-to-the-scottish-minister-for-community-safety/

[greenginger]

It's important to remember that the Greens didn't field candidates in all constituencies.

The SNP list vote is 200,000 less than constituency vote and the Greens list vote is 190,000 more than their constituency vote.

Interesting points on the 2 votes, 6,000 more list votes overall than constituency votes.


There was also 45,000 list votes for the Alba party. I can’t see them coming from anywhere but the SNP constituency voters.

[Mcbizz1998]

Who cares what the SNP claim will happen in their fantasy land post independence?

Is she still claiming their will be a referendum in 2023? [emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

Who cares what the SNP claim will happen in their fantasy land post independence?

Is she still claiming their will be a referendum in 2023? [emoji23]


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I’m still waiting on the fantasyland UK we were promised in 2014.


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[grunt]

Is she still claiming their will be a referendum in 2023? [emoji23]

Are you suggesting their might not be one?

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=grunt;6884457]Are you suggesting their might not be one?[/

https://m.facebook.com/ScottishConservatives/videos/nicola-sturgeon-yesterday-i-kind-of-communicate-at-a-level-where-i-assume-a-cert/146629614176562/


No point in asking Nicola . She can’t remember if she’s asked for one or not .:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

[QUOTE=grunt;6884457]Are you suggesting their might not be one?[/

https://m.facebook.com/ScottishConservatives/videos/nicola-sturgeon-yesterday-i-kind-of-communicate-at-a-level-where-i-assume-a-cert/146629614176562/


No point in asking Nicola . She can’t remember if she’s asked for one or not .:greengrin

I'm now going to have to remove all the viruses that have infected my computer!!! Those bloody Russians!!

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=greenginger;6884585]

I'm now going to have to remove all the viruses that have infected my computer!!! Those bloody Russians!!

Its no the Ruskies. It just our First Minister showing she either has the memory of a gnat , or she’s lying , under oath, through her back teeth.

[JeMeSouviens]

Its no the Ruskies. It just our First Minister showing she either has the memory of a gnat , or she’s lying , under oath, through her back teeth.

:top marks for Tory brass neckery there.

[Moulin Yarns]

Its no the Ruskies. It just our First Minister showing she either has the memory of a gnat , or she’s lying , under oath, through her back teeth.

You're the Tory puppet that gave me the link with all the Russian viruses!!! 🙄

Is there a peerage coming your way? 😉

[degenerated]

You're the Tory puppet that gave me the link with all the Russian viruses!!! [emoji849]

Is there a peerage coming your way? [emoji6]A link that absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed either. Bizarre.

[greenginger]

A link that absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed either. Bizarre.


:confused:

Check the title of the thread.

SNP are lying b*****s as well !

Do do you think you control what can be discussed on threads. ?

[grunt]

Check the title thread.



What's a title thread?

[WeeRussell]

What's a title thread?

A thread about all the titles that have been handed out by the tories illegally?

[grunt]

A thread about all the titles that have been handed out by the tories illegally?:greengrin

[majorhibs]

This thread is greengingers thread alone to disassociate himself from absolute anything he’s done good before cos he is a complete loss of perspective zoomer here.

[Glory Lurker]

I welcome an SNP bashing thread as I like to have my views challenged.

[greenginger]

This thread is greengingers thread alone to disassociate himself from absolute anything he’s done good before cos he is a complete loss of perspective zoomer here.


Are threads criticising our SNP government forbidden on Hibs.net :confused:

If not I’ll continue even if it upsets your own perspective.

[Glory Lurker]

Are threads criticising our SNP government forbidden on Hibs.net :confused:

If not I’ll continue even if it upsets your own perspective.

Please read post above yours!

[Ozyhibby]

There plenty to criticise the snp govt on. Knock yourselves out. Especially on education. On health they prob get pass marks and on crime they are knocking it out the park so best leave we’ll alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Don't know if he falls into the 'liar' category but this bampot certainly does the SNP cause no good:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19976821.outspoken-snp-msp-james-dornan-takes-indefinite-break-holyrood/?ref=ar

I'm guessing some pressure from the party itself prompted this move.

Apologies if already posted. I just noticed the story this morning.

[Santa Cruz]

Don't know if he falls into the 'liar' category but this bampot certainly does the SNP cause no good:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19976821.outspoken-snp-msp-james-dornan-takes-indefinite-break-holyrood/?ref=ar

I'm guessing some pressure from the party itself prompted this move.

Apologies if already posted. I just noticed the story this morning.

I thought the same about party pressure. Then I thought being unwell would certainly be a valid reason for some of the more recent unacceptable comments he's made. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and see if he recovers and the strange comments cease.

[Callum_62]

Who cares what the SNP claim will happen in their fantasy land post independence?

Is she still claiming their will be a referendum in 2023? [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://www.thenational.scot/news/19980885.nicola-sturgeon-confirms-indyref2-next-year-despite-ukraine-invasion/

Yes.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Skol]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19980885.nicola-sturgeon-confirms-indyref2-next-year-despite-ukraine-invasion/

Yes.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

This is a curious tactic the SNP have recently employed of getting blackford to say something only for sturgeon to appear to say something else.

[He's here!]

This is a curious tactic the SNP have recently employed of getting blackford to say something only for sturgeon to appear to say something else.

For once I agree with Blackford.

[JeMeSouviens]

For once I agree with Blackford.


“I want that referendum to take place in a timely manner. I want us to be able to execute the mandate that we have."

Good man :agree::wink:

[Skol]

For once I agree with Blackford.

Haha

I agree that 2023 is not the time but I don’t yet know where I stand on his rationale for that position. We are probably 18 months away from the snp desired timeline, and we all hope the current situation in Ukraine is resolved long before then. If there is a mandate for a referendum, I don’t see why the 2023 timeline can’t still stand

[Skol]

Good man :agree::wink:

Although I don’t support independence, I think the only way out of the impasse is to have another referendum

As things stand it is a pretty close call and I don’t think the snp have the confidence they will win and so are reluctant to start the process as they know a second failure at best sets them back for a generation. This is bad as we just continue as we are until something major changes things.

Even with brexit, Johnson as PM and the worst Westminster government in living memory, we have not seen any real change from the 50/50 split.

What’s clear to me is that the current situation does us no good whatsoever. Either we gain independence or we accept we remain as we are. There are pros and cons with each and depending on your side of the debate you will see it differently.

I’ve been reading a thread elsewhere and the debate is just poisonous with some pretty I’ll informed statements being made (from both sides) and also some nasty comments. This is what frustrates me here. At the end of the day we all want the best for Scotland, it’s just that we have different views on how this can be achieved. We shouldn’t be falling out and sniping at each other. Whatever the outcome we will still all be Scot’s going forward and need to pull together

[Stairway 2 7]

Ukraine is clutching at straws for a delay. Its a brave call 2023 as it will surely be close. Hopefully they are confident as there won't be a third anytime soon if no happens

[JeMeSouviens]

Although I don’t support independence, I think the only way out of the impasse is to have another referendum

As things stand it is a pretty close call and I don’t think the snp have the confidence they will win and so are reluctant to start the process as they know a second failure at best sets them back for a generation. This is bad as we just continue as we are until something major changes things.

Even with brexit, Johnson as PM and the worst Westminster government in living memory, we have not seen any real change from the 50/50 split.

What’s clear to me is that the current situation does us no good whatsoever. Either we gain independence or we accept we remain as we are. There are pros and cons with each and depending on your side of the debate you will see it differently.

I’ve been reading a thread elsewhere and the debate is just poisonous with some pretty I’ll informed statements being made (from both sides) and also some nasty comments. This is what frustrates me here. At the end of the day we all want the best for Scotland, it’s just that we have different views on how this can be achieved. We shouldn’t be falling out and sniping at each other. Whatever the outcome we will still all be Scot’s going forward and need to pull together

I actually don't think that's true now, if it ever was. Well, assuming you mean want what's best for the people of Scotland? I think the Tory side of Unionism wants as poor a Scottish economy as possible to push a "reliance on the UK state" narrative. The existential threat to Britain is much more important to them (even Scots Tories) than the best for Scotland.

[Skol]

I actually don't think that's true now, if it ever was. Well, assuming you mean want what's best for the people of Scotland? I think the Tory side of Unionism wants as poor a Scottish economy as possible to push a "reliance on the UK state" narrative. The existential threat to Britain is much more important to them (even Scots Tories) than the best for Scotland.

I am really surprised at that view if I am honest and I really don’t see it. Key to note I am not on the Tory side and also I don’t view myself as a unionist, albeit I do believe remaining in the UK is best for Scotland overall.

I don’t think the snp are doing as well as they could to improve the Scottish economy based on the powers they have.
I have long said that the best way to make the case for independence is to make a success of devolution and win over people like me rather than try to put a huge divide down the middle by making us out to be some kind of anti Scotland people.

I still maintain that we all want the best for Scotland but just see things differently in how we achieve that.

[JeMeSouviens]

I am really surprised at that view if I am honest and I really don’t see it. Key to note I am not on the Tory side and also I don’t view myself as a unionist, albeit I do believe remaining in the UK is best for Scotland overall.

I don’t think the snp are doing as well as they could to improve the Scottish economy based on the powers they have.
I have long said that the best way to make the case for independence is to make a success of devolution and win over people like me rather than try to put a huge divide down the middle by making us out to be some kind of anti Scotland people.

I still maintain that we all want the best for Scotland but just see things differently in how we achieve that.

I don't doubt you're totally sincere in that but you just need to look at the undisguised glee at the reporting of GERS "deficits" etc.

[greenginger]

W
This thread is greengingers thread alone to disassociate himself from absolute anything he’s done good before cos he is a complete loss of perspective zoomer here.


Oh dear, I seem to have negated myself from anything good I have ever done because I have lost perspective and have criticised SNP’s Great Leader :greengrin

This is place is getting like North Korea.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't doubt you're totally sincere in that but you just need to look at the undisguised glee at the reporting of GERS "deficits" etc.

At £150 a barrel the GERS figures might be a bit different next year. [emoji51]
Might need to dig out the old ‘it’s Scotland’s oil’ posters.[emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/0ce3a719c56f06f0de1b68d48f4bae45.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

At £150 a barrel the GERS figures might be a bit different next year. [emoji51]
Might need to dig out the old ‘it’s Scotland’s oil’ posters.[emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/0ce3a719c56f06f0de1b68d48f4bae45.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd "these islands" argument of Scotland not being able to be an independent country because it has too much energy resource will need a rethink.

[Stairway 2 7]

And "these islands" argument of Scotland not being able to be an independent country because it has too much energy resource will need a rethink.

Wonder if NS will be more open to camo field being opened with the price of oil as it is

[degenerated]

Wonder if NS will be more open to camo field being opened with the price of oil as it isNeeds must when the devil drives

[ronaldo7]

This is a curious tactic the SNP have recently employed of getting blackford to say something only for sturgeon to appear to say something else.

Probably taken from journalists like Sarah Smith. Pretend somethings been said, then pass it round your mates until it swamps the airwaves.

Only this morning we've had journalists saying Blackford is quitting after an internal spat. Totally made up.

Fake news is alive and well in the British established press.

[greenginger]

Wonder if NS will be more open to camo field being opened with the price of oil as it is

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/18/sturgeon-urged-to-commit-to-end-oil-and-gas-production-in-scotland

Looks more like Sturgeon is committed to ending all North Sea oil production sooner rather than later.

[Stairway 2 7]

Needs must when the devil drives

Not sure the greens will see it that way unfortunately

[degenerated]

Not sure the greens will see it that way unfortunatelyThere's a bit of politicking to be don there, I'm sure the SNP would prevail if that's what needs to be done.

[Santa Cruz]

Wonder if NS will be more open to camo field being opened with the price of oil as it is

If your talking about the near future, she just rejected that proposal at FMQ's, said it would take until 2026 to get it to the stage of production, or at least I think that's what she said. Presumably oil price will reduce again at some point given it's such a volatile market?

[ronaldo7]

We were told in 2014 that the oil would run out in 5 years. I wonder who was lying then. 😂

[Stairway 2 7]

If your talking about the near future, she just rejected that proposal at FMQ's, said it would take until 2026 to get it to the stage of production, or at least I think that's what she said. Presumably oil price will reduce again at some point given it's such a volatile market?

Estimates only go a few years in front and it's estimated to keep rising slightly

[lapsedhibee]

Fake news is alive and well in the British established press.

:agree: It's like North Korea.

[Kato]

:agree: It's like North Korea.You wouldn't be able to say that in North Korea.

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[WhileTheChief..]

I am really surprised at that view if I am honest and I really don’t see it. Key to note I am not on the Tory side and also I don’t view myself as a unionist, albeit I do believe remaining in the UK is best for Scotland overall.

I don’t think the snp are doing as well as they could to improve the Scottish economy based on the powers they have.
I have long said that the best way to make the case for independence is to make a success of devolution and win over people like me rather than try to put a huge divide down the middle by making us out to be some kind of anti Scotland people.

I still maintain that we all want the best for Scotland but just see things differently in how we achieve that.

:top marksExcellent post. I don't see myself as a unionist either but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.

I really wish more SNP supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they are somehow 'more Scottish', whatever that means, are the worst!!

[ronaldo7]

:top marksExcellent post. I don't see myself as a unionist either but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.

I really wish more SNP supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they are somehow 'more Scottish', whatever that means, are the worst!!

Excellent post. I don't see myself as nationalist either, but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.
I really wish 'unionist' supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they're 'more British', whatever that means, are the worst!!

✌

[JeMeSouviens]

:top marksExcellent post. I don't see myself as a unionist either but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.

I really wish more SNP supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they are somehow 'more Scottish', whatever that means, are the worst!!

What word would you like? "Person who thinks the best current constitutional position for Scotland is subsumed within the UK without necessarily having an existential attachment to that state", is a bit of a mouthful, tbh. :wink:

Completely acknowledge there are Persons-who-think-the-best-...etc who are considerably more Scottish than I am (whatever that means). One older relative of my wife opposed Indy on the basis "we couldn't defend ourselves". I asked him who he thought would want to attack us. "The bloody English of course" was his immediate, and seemingly serious, reply.

[WhileTheChief..]

Excellent post. I don't see myself as nationalist either, but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.
I really wish 'unionist' supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they're 'more British', whatever that means, are the worst!!

✌

See this is what I mean!! What is your post really about, other than a dig at me?

I like what you post usually. I generally don't agree with it, but I have never posted anything trying to belittle you or put you down.

Why not just exchange messages with me and discuss things? We don't need to argue just because we see things differently.

Ok, a peace smiley at the end is appreciated, but I think you see the point I make.

I don't just mean you btw.

Just read the general tone from Indy supporters when they post things replying to me in comparison to my posts to them. There's always a dig or a bit of smarm in there directed at me instead of just discussing the point. There's really no need for it.

[ronaldo7]

See this is what I mean!! What is your post really about, other than a dig at me?

I like what you post usually. I generally don't agree with it, but I have never posted anything trying to belittle you or put you down.

Why not just exchange messages with me and discuss things? We don't need to argue just because we see things differently.

Ok, a peace smiley at the end is appreciated, but I think you see the point I make.

I don't just mean you btw.

Just read the general tone from Indy supporters when they post things replying to me in comparison to my posts to them. There's always a dig or a bit of smarm in there directed at me instead of just discussing the point. There's really no need for it.

Take a chill mate. I was only joshing. 😂

Sorry if I've offended your Britishness.

[WhileTheChief..]

What word would you like? "Person who thinks the best current constitutional position for Scotland is subsumed within the UK without necessarily having an existential attachment to that state", is a bit of a mouthful, tbh. :wink:

Completely acknowledge there are Persons-who-think-the-best-...etc who are considerably more Scottish than I am (whatever that means). One older relative of my wife opposed Indy on the basis "we couldn't defend ourselves". I asked him who he thought would want to attack us. "The bloody English of course" was his immediate, and seemingly serious, reply.

I don't know. Why do you need to label me as anything??

I'm just a Scottish person just think we're better off staying part of the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't know. Why do you need to label me as anything??

I'm just a Scottish person just think we're better off staying part of the UK.

Still too much typing, tbh. How can the discussion refer to supporters of one side or the other without naming them? If you think we're better off in the UK, you support the Union; ergo, you're a Unionist. Why is that a problem? :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't know. Why do you need to label me as anything??

I'm just a Scottish person just think we're better off staying part of the UK.

Anti separation?

Anti democratic voice?

[He's here!]

Blackford dismisses quit rumours:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60692922

I'd love to see the back of that gasbag (one of the few folk you're actually disappointed to hear is a Hibby) tho I do agree with him that there are more important things to focus on than independence right now.

[greenginger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60692922

One bit of good news. I’d miss the horrible slob if he quit . :greengrin

[He's here!]

Still too much typing, tbh. How can the discussion refer to supporters of one side or the other without naming them? If you think we're better off in the UK, you support the Union; ergo, you're a Unionist. Why is that a problem? :dunno:

There's a big difference between independence supporters and so-called 'supporters' of the union. With the exception of the more partisan Rangers fans most of those who voted no don't actively 'support' the union in the sense that they take to the streets waving union jacks to counter nationalist marches. They are simply content to be British, having always been so. A lot of independence supporters seem to come at it from a 'how can you possibly not feel the same way as us?' angle and are unable to grasp that for many it's simply not an issue that unduly bothers them. You can be a proud Scot without being anti-British.

[JeMeSouviens]

There's a big difference between independence supporters and so-called 'supporters' of the union. With the exception of the more partisan Rangers fans most of those who voted no don't actively 'support' the union in the sense that they take to the streets waving union jacks to counter nationalist marches. They are simply content to be British, having always been so. A lot of independence supporters seem to come at it from a 'how can you possibly not feel the same way as us?' angle and are unable to grasp that for many it's simply not an issue that unduly bothers them. You can be a proud Scot without being anti-British.

You can also support indy without being a proud Scot. I don't think it's anything in particular to be proud of, tbh. It would just be another small European country if it functioned normally.

[WhileTheChief..]

]Still too much typing,[/B] tbh. How can the discussion refer to supporters of one side or the other without naming them? If you think we're better off in the UK, you support the Union; ergo, you're a Unionist. Why is that a problem? :dunno:

Fair do's!!

He's Here has answered for me:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Let's hope Ian Blackford has a thicker skin than some on here. A gasbag, and horrible slob.

Poor Ian.

[ronaldo7]

There's a big difference between independence supporters and so-called 'supporters' of the union. With the exception of the more partisan Rangers fans most of those who voted no don't actively 'support' the union in the sense that they take to the streets waving union jacks to counter nationalist marches. They are simply content to be British, having always been so. A lot of independence supporters seem to come at it from a 'how can you possibly not feel the same way as us?' angle and are unable to grasp that for many it's simply not an issue that unduly bothers them. You can be a proud Scot without being anti-British.

I'm sure I saw a major march down the Royal mile with banners, union flags, and bands in 2014. It was possibly the local labour party meeting going home though.

[grunt]

I'm just a Scottish person just think we're better off staying part of the UK.
Can I ask why you think we're better off staying part of the UK?
Do you mean economically better off, or just better off in general?
What is it about being part of the UK that you enjoy, please?

[WhileTheChief..]

Can I ask why you think we're better off staying part of the UK?
Do you mean economically better off, or just better off in general?
What is it about being part of the UK that you enjoy, please?

In a very general, sweeping-statement kinda way, I don't think things are nearly as bad in the UK as a lot of you on here do.

I'll leave it there if that's ok, nothing to be gained by expanding on that!!

[WhileTheChief..]

Let's hope Ian Blackford has a thicker skin than some on here. A gasbag, and horrible slob.

Poor Ian.

:na na:

[grunt]

In a very general, sweeping-statement kinda way, I don't think things are nearly as bad in the UK as a lot of you on here do. I'll leave it there if that's ok, nothing to be gained by expanding on that!!
Thanks for replying. I hope you're right about the UK but I fear the direction of travel under this Johnson administration. We're becoming something very un-British, IMO.

[greenginger]

Let's hope Ian Blackford has a thicker skin than some on here. A gasbag, and horrible slob.

Poor Ian.

Poor Ian my a***.

I have the misfortune to know the cretin through the Hibs 50 club as we were both members.

The 50 club used to have an annual dinner dance at some posh hotel, usually the Caley.

We we were expecting Blackford and his partner to be at our table but he didn’t show on the night and a friend and fellow member at the table told me Blackford had phoned him and asked him to get him two tickets for the night so he’d be after him for the ticket costs of about £140.

Next time I saw my friend he told me Blackford had refused to pay saying he wasn’t there and anyway my friend couldn’t prove he had asked him to get him tickets. My friend is a long standing Scot Nat who was in the party long before Blackford joined.

That’s the measure of the man, bump his fellow club members.

[Berwickhibby]

Poor Ian my a***.

I have the misfortune to know the cretin through the Hibs 50 club as we were both members.

The 50 club used to have an annual dinner dance at some posh hotel, usually the Caley.

We we were expecting Blackford and his partner to be at our table but he didn’t show on the night and a friend and fellow member at the table told me Blackford had phoned him and asked him to get him two tickets for the night so he’d be after him for the ticket costs of about £140.

Next time I saw my friend he told me Blackford had refused to pay saying he wasn’t there and anyway my friend couldn’t prove he had asked him to get him tickets. My friend is a long standing Scot Nat who was in the party long before Blackford joined.

That’s the measure of the man, bump his fellow club members.

I knew the prick when he lived in Muirhouse…to good to go to Craigroyston …his parents pulled strings to get him to the Royal High School.

[Ozyhibby]

I knew the prick when he lived in Muirhouse…to good to go to Craigroyston …his parents pulled strings to get him to the Royal High School.

Absolutely despicable. I don’t know how he sleeps at night.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

:tee hee:

[WeeRussell]

:top marksExcellent post. I don't see myself as a unionist either but everyone's got to have a label these days apparently.

I really wish more SNP supporters could be more tolerant of those of us with different views. The ones that think they are somehow 'more Scottish', whatever that means, are the worst!!

I’ve always just thought a Unionist was someone who wants to stay part of the Union, and never knew it was offensive in any way whatsoever.. other than to those who don’t actually like the Union. If you don’t like the term, I’m more than happy not to use it towards you or anyone else 👍

As for the last paragraph about people thinking they are ‘more Scottish’ I genuinely don’t know anyone like that. I don’t think there are any on here that I’m aware of either. It’s another one of those that I hear people from the other side talk about, like referencing braveheart or hating England, but doesn’t actually ring true amongst any Indy supporters in my experience. Maybe you know some personally in which case, I agree, they’re not helpful.

[WeeRussell]

I knew the prick when he lived in Muirhouse…to good to go to Craigroyston …his parents pulled strings to get him to the Royal High School.

A child being sent to private school isn’t really their fault or issue though is it? And, while I’m no advocate of private education against state schools; maybe, just maybe, his folks had the money and believed this would give him the best chance for him to get to where he is today in his career.

I don’t know the guy personally, but I have learned during life not to be prejudice towards someone just because they went to a ‘posh schuil’ 😁

As for greenginger’s tale on him.. I hope posters will forgive me for being hesitant in believing every detail.

[Berwickhibby]

A child being sent to private school isn’t really their fault or issue though is it? And, while I’m no advocate of private education against state schools; maybe, just maybe, his folks had the money and believed this would give him the best chance for him to get to where he is today in his career.

I don’t know the guy personally, but I have learned during life not to be prejudice towards someone just because they went to a ‘posh schuil’ 😁

As for greenginger’s tale on him.. I hope posters will forgive me for being hesitant in believing every detail.

Royal High school was not a private school…just considered a better state school but due to some parental clout he did not have to attend the local school for his catchment area.

[WeeRussell]

Royal High school was not a private school…just considered a better state school but due to some parental clout he did not have to attend the local school for his catchment area.

Ah sorry, my mistake. I assumed royal high was private.

Maintain my point though.

[Ozyhibby]

Royal High school was not a private school…just considered a better state school but due to some parental clout he did not have to attend the local school for his catchment area.

I coach youth footy and I have loads of kids from Craigroyston catchment and none of them actually go there. Downright evil.

I know of a polish family in West Pilton who sent the kids to the Gaelic school at Broughton because the catchment if you went there is Boroughmuir.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

Ah sorry, my mistake. I assumed royal high was private.

Maintain my point though.

Had this been DRoss or some of his lot you would be screaming it is a scandal …

[JeMeSouviens]

Ah sorry, my mistake. I assumed royal high was private.

Maintain my point though.

It was a long time ago, bit before Blackford though, early 70s I think.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was a long time ago, bit before Blackford though, early 70s I think.

It's never been private, unless you count the years when it was run by monks 😄 It's always been State.


It was "selective" at one time, just as Trinity and Gillespie's were.

[Sharon]

Royal High school was not a private school…just considered a better state school but due to some parental clout he did not have to attend the local school for his catchment area.

Royal High, Trinity Academy and James Gillespie's were all council run schools but you had to pass an entrance exam to get in until they became fully comprehensive in the early Seventies. Until about 1970 they were also fee paying schools although the fees were latterly about £5 per term.

[Kato]

Had this been DRoss or some of his lot you would be screaming it is a scandal …What school did D Ross go to? Looking forward to a good scream.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Santa Cruz]

Royal High, Trinity Academy and James Gillespie's were all council run schools but you had to pass an entrance exam to get in until they became fully comprehensive in the early Seventies. Until about 1970 they were also fee paying schools although the fees were latterly about £5 per term.

Did you need to sit an entrance exam to get into Holy Cross Academy?

[majorhibs]

Are threads criticising our SNP government forbidden on Hibs.net :confused:

If not I’ll continue even if it upsets your own perspective.


W


Oh dear, I seem to have negated myself from anything good I have ever done because I have lost perspective and have criticised SNP’s Great Leader :greengrin

This is place is getting like North Korea.

Come ootae there, please! Have never voted SNP if ye must know. Anythin remotely tory & therefore nowadays union & therefore the utter lyin tripe that is brexit kinda gets my notice, kinda like you just did.

[WeeRussell]

Had this been DRoss or some of his lot you would be screaming it is a scandal …

I would? What makes you say that?

I can assure you I wouldn’t. There’s plenty to have a go at Douglas Ross for without picking at something pathetic.

Like I touched upon, I gave up giving a f*** what school someone attended at about erm…school age.

And whatever it is or isn’t.. it’s hardly a “scandal” 😂

[greenginger]

Come ootae there, please! Have never voted SNP if ye must know. Anythin remotely tory & therefore nowadays union & therefore the utter lyin tripe that is brexit kinda gets my notice, kinda like you just did.

Well if it calms your body I voted remain in the 2016 referendum.

But the majority voted leave, so , in a democracy that’s what happens and the ones on the loosing side should accept it.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's never been private, unless you count the years when it was run by monks 😄 It's always been State.


It was "selective" at one time, just as Trinity and Gillespie's were.

Oops, my mistake. My mum taught there in the 80s as well.

[majorhibs]

Well if it calms your body I voted remain in the 2016 referendum.

But the majority voted leave, so , in a democracy that’s what happens and the ones on the loosing side should accept it.

Slavers like yersel can keep tae yersel, mate, we aw ken how that went but you & mogg & bo & yer zillionaires just keep smug.

[Keith_M]

If you're looking for schooling scandals... I went to a 'Grammar School' that wasn't actually a real Grammar School


I'm ashamed of it to this day.

:embarrass

[Skol]

I don't doubt you're totally sincere in that but you just need to look at the undisguised glee at the reporting of GERS "deficits" etc.

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.

[greenginger]

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.


https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2020-21/

Its our Scottish Government that produces the GERS stats.

[Kato]

Well if it calms your body I voted remain in the 2016 referendum.

But the majority voted leave, so , in a democracy that’s what happens and the ones on the loosing side should accept it.I think everyone has accepted it. Why still whine on about that.

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[degenerated]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2020-21/

Its our Scottish Government that produces the GERS stats.Where do they get the figures from?

[Keith_M]

Where do they get the figures from?


The Gers?

[degenerated]

The Gers?As I understand it, they calculate the expenditure relating to devolved spend and the revenue figures along with reserved spend are provided by the treasury.

[greenginger]

I think everyone has accepted it. Why still whine on about that.

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Who’s whining, apart from yourself.

I was responding to post 215 which , I think , accused me of being a brexiteer and spouting lying tripe :confused:

[Just Alf]

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.

Gets are Produced by the SG I think, I think that's a red herring though, the numbers are the numbers whoever produces them. There's also the ONS figures (I think?)

It feels like those on either side seem to latch onto something and stretch it to.meet their argument.

UK gov. is trying to.do the best for everyone (its in their own best interests), its just that indy supporters think a Scot gov could maybe do better.

In terms of the figures and folks jumping on them, unionists "gleefully" point out the deficit (directly or indirectly hinting at the 'too wee to poor' claim). Whilst the indy side points out that it includes many things an iScotland wouldn't be paying for or skews the figures .. Trident, HS2, Westminster refurb, the oil fields to the east of Dundee being attributed to England etc....

As usual the truth will be somewhere in between:greengrin

[grunt]

I think everyone has accepted it.
I haven't accepted it. The issue should never have been put to a referendum in the first place, and the "win" was obtained by illegal means, and as seems to be clearer each day, with interference in the vote from Russia in order to destabilise the EU. Some things are just stupid. Having lots of people voting for something stupid doesn't make it any less stupid.

[grunt]

Produced by the SG I think, I think that's a red herring though, the numbers are the numbers whoever produces them.

I can tell you're not an accountant, are you? :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Some things are just stupid. Having lots of people voting for something stupid doesn't make it any less stupid.

In the last GE, Dorries got almost 60% of the vote in her constituency.

[Ozyhibby]

The GERS figures every year are a great reminder of how badly Scotland does as part of the union. And every year unionists rejoice in how poor we are getting. It’s always a weird week.


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[James310]

The GERS figures every year are a great reminder of how badly Scotland does as part of the union. And every year unionists rejoice in how poor we are getting. It’s always a weird week.


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But when GERs showed a surplus they were what? A great advert of how well Scotland was doing?

Nicola Sturgeon said they made the case for Scottish Independence.

Politicians being politicians will say whatever to make their points.

[Kato]

I haven't accepted it. The issue should never have been put to a referendum in the first place, and the "win" was obtained by illegal means, and as seems to be clearer each day, with interference in the vote from Russia in order to destabilise the EU. Some things are just stupid. Having lots of people voting for something stupid doesn't make it any less stupid.You've accepted is as in you aren't rioting or doing anything undemocratic.

Discussing the effects and the actual process is democratic but lots of people seem to think that that is "not accepting" the result, which is just rubbish.

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[Kato]

Who’s whining, apart from yourself.

I was responding to post 215 which , I think , accused me of being a brexiteer and spouting lying tripe :confused:1 out 2 isn't bad.

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[Ozyhibby]

But when GERs showed a surplus they were what? A great advert of how well Scotland was doing?

Nicola Sturgeon said they made the case for Scottish Independence.

Politicians being politicians will say whatever to make their points.

You can’t get away from the fact that Scotland is poorer than our neighbours. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway are all much richer than we are. What is the unionist plan to fix this? The answer is that there isn’t one. It’s all about centralising power and wealth in London.


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[ronaldo7]

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.

Your last paragraph. Only £596 million mitigation in the last financial year. Small change to the Westminster elites, but making a difference in many areas of Scotland. The seven new social security payments alone are making a difference to families and the economy, and that's before the only one you can remember.

This thread is showing a clear line in the sand from people who get irate at paying an extra penny on income tax to help those less fortunate.

It makes me more determined than ever to continue talking up our country, rather than hiding behind more tory lies.

If you can't see the difference in policies, you're not looking hard enough.

[JeMeSouviens]

You can’t get away from the fact that Scotland is poorer than our neighbours. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway are all much richer than we are. What is the unionist plan to fix this? The answer is that there isn’t one. It’s all about centralising power and wealth in London.


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A bigger begging bowl?

[Skol]

Your last paragraph. Only £596 million mitigation in the last financial year. Small change to the Westminster elites, but making a difference in many areas of Scotland. The seven new social security payments alone are making a difference to families and the economy, and that's before the only one you can remember.

This thread is showing a clear line in the sand from people who get irate at paying an extra penny on income tax to help those less fortunate.

It makes me more determined than ever to continue talking up our country, rather than hiding behind more tory lies.

If you can't see the difference in policies, you're not looking hard enough.

I can see difference in policies between Westminster and holyrood, but the point made was that Tory policies specifically are bad for Scotland and to make us poorer. I don’t think that they are just bad for Scotland, but are bad for many parts of the UK.

Odd that you have brought in the taxation point as I don’t think that’s been discussed on this thread. When we voted for devolution I was against it, but I did vote in favour of the tax raising powers as I was pretty certain we would vote in favour of devolution and I felt in that case the tax raising powers were important.

[ronaldo7]

I can see difference in policies between Westminster and holyrood, but the point made was that Tory policies specifically are bad for Scotland and to make us poorer. I don’t think that they are just bad for Scotland, but are bad for many parts of the UK.

Odd that you have brought in the taxation point as I don’t think that’s been discussed on this thread. When we voted for devolution I was against it, but I did vote in favour of the tax raising powers as I was pretty certain we would vote in favour of devolution and I felt in that case the tax raising powers were important.

The party you support is in government in Wales. What have you done do mitigate policies there?

On the tax question, according to latest figures 55% of Scots pay less tax.

[JeMeSouviens]

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.

Yes, you can quibble over bits of the GERS numbers, but they are most likely a reasonable ball park and are produced by Scotgov.

It's pointless to use them as an indicator for a post-Indy world though. Almost half the spend is things "for the benefit of Scotland" spent by UK gov. The amount Scotgov spends is almost entirely decided at Westminster (although can be varied a bit by local taxes). The amount of money raised through taxation is very largely decided at Westminster.

One of the key lessons from the pandemic is there's not much point of having charge of eg. health policy, if you don't control the spending necessary to support it. For example, you get furlough if/when England needs it, and if they don't, you don't.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can see difference in policies between Westminster and holyrood, but the point made was that Tory policies specifically are bad for Scotland and to make us poorer. I don’t think that they are just bad for Scotland, but are bad for many parts of the UK.

Odd that you have brought in the taxation point as I don’t think that’s been discussed on this thread. When we voted for devolution I was against it, but I did vote in favour of the tax raising powers as I was pretty certain we would vote in favour of devolution and I felt in that case the tax raising powers were important.

Yes, absolutely agree with that. Regional inequality is just as big a problem for other bits of the UK. IN fact it's even worse if you live in the poorer parts of England. Since you're not threatening independence and aren't a nuclear sub parking zone, you don't get any Barnett uplift either. They get well and truly shafted.

[Skol]

The party you support is in government in Wales. What have you done do mitigate policies there?

On the tax question, according to latest figures 55% of Scots pay less tax.

I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

[Just Alf]

I can tell you're not an accountant, are you? :greengrinHa ha true! :greengrin

[Mcbizz1998]

Are you suggesting their might not be one?

Oooh got me on a typo!

Yeah I am suggesting that. There will be no referendum, just like there wasn’t one all the other years she has claimed there would be.

She has been saying it for about 6 years now.


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[Skol]

Yes, you can quibble over bits of the GERS numbers, but they are most likely a reasonable ball park and are produced by Scotgov.

It's pointless to use them as an indicator for a post-Indy world though. Almost half the spend is things "for the benefit of Scotland" spent by UK gov. The amount Scotgov spends is almost entirely decided at Westminster (although can be varied a bit by local taxes). The amount of money raised through taxation is very largely decided at Westminster.

One of the key lessons from the pandemic is there's not much point of having charge of eg. health policy, if you don't control the spending necessary to support it. For example, you get furlough if/when England needs it, and if they don't, you don't.

I agree with that and that’s why I think it’s important we see proposals on this from the SNP to better inform the debate. The absence of this makes it very difficult.

I suspect this will lead to someone stating the union need to make their case in reply. They don’t really as we know what we get and how it works. However I do agree that the UK government could and should do more. Sadly the current incumbents are not going to and we are stuck with in my view poor governments in both Westminster and holyrood. The missed opportunity with boris at the helm is massive.

[Just Alf]

Oooh got me on a typo!

Yeah I am suggesting that. There will be no referendum, just like there wasn’t one all the other years she has claimed there would be.

She has been saying it for about 6 years now.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHang on... are you saying she shouldn't have waited on the pandemic nearing an end?

[One Day Soon]

There's no glass ceiling for the Conservatives in England and Wales, or if there is it is set at a very high level. In that context it's quite a tough gig for Starmer to catch and defeat them. But he seems to have kept Labour ahead for most of the last four months and that's presumably due to a mix of Johnson's crash and Starmer's relatively good performance.

Bit of a challenge then for Elsie that in the same context her nationalists cannot emulate Starmer's Labour with a poll bounce majority for independence. The Conservatives here absolutely do have a glass ceiling and they also offer virtually everything you could want to drive Scottish voters towards the idea of independence ranging from a crap Tory leader to a malign/incompetent government and a rag-tag Cabinet of fellow traveller idiots and bad faith actors.

My suspicion is that the Salmond and Sturgeon record in government of the last 14 years is slowly catching up with them and this is leading to a stalling in confidence about their statements on both another referendum and independence itself. The only thing protecting their poll numbers at the moment is the Conservative glass ceiling and Scottish Labour being stuck in third place and struggling to get visible and to carve out electoral ground of their own.

So perhaps the Scottish electorate does increasingly realise that the 'SNP are lying *******s as well!' but currently those electors feel they have nowhere else credible to go...

[Mcbizz1998]

Hang on... are you saying she shouldn't have waited on the pandemic nearing an end?

Emm nope. Never said that and not sure where on earth you got that from?

Here she is 4 years ago - https://youtu.be/NrfSilGDfeI

Whatever happened to that referendum? Did she know about Covid ahead of time?

Btw I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a referendum, I hope there is, the separatists will lose again, probably by a larger margin. The point I’m making is sturgeon continues to dangle the carrot of a referendum (one she knows she won’t win) to remain in power - her fanatical supporters demand it. Quite amusing really.


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[WeeRussell]

Emm nope. Never said that and not sure where on earth you got that from?

Here she is 4 years ago - https://youtu.be/NrfSilGDfeI

Whatever happened to that referendum? Did she know about Covid ahead of time?

Btw I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a referendum, I hope there is, the separatists will lose again, probably by a larger margin. The point I’m making is sturgeon continues to dangle the carrot of a referendum (one she knows she won’t win) to remain in power - her fanatical supporters demand it. Quite amusing really.


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I’d imagine he got it from the fact you finished your post with a dig about how many years she’s been talking about another referendum.

Would you expect her to stand and say “aye barry, we’ll get dragged out of the EU after all the lies of the referendum and brexit vote” at that time? As for what happened to it, you surely weren’t expecting to be filling out your no vote the very next day? Whenever her ideally planned date for this was; she didn’t know about covid ahead of time, but it did happen, as did a number of other blockers. It will happen, so you will get your wish.

Your posts make you seem more ‘on edge’ than “amused” about all this.