SNP are lying b******s as well !

[grunt]

It's not very simplistic. We've got nearly the lowest tax rates in Western Europe. If we raised them we'd raise more money, that's so simplistic its not worth saying. We can use that money as we wish
:brickwall

[Hibrandenburg]

Come on that's will account for a miniscule difference

Not here in Germany it doesn't. We've got 3 City States, Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg where many people go to work but live and pay their taxes in the state's that surround them. These state's are riddled with social problems.

[Stairway 2 7]

:brickwall

Aye that's the attitude, just stick to how can we improve q y or z when we can't raise our own money line

[Stairway 2 7]

Not here in Germany it doesn't. We've got 3 City States, Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg where many people go to work but live and pay their taxes in the state's that surround them. These state's are riddled with social problems.

The number of people that work in Scotland but pay taxes will be tiny, if not at least of set by the people who do the opposite with England and particularly London

[Ozyhibby]

It's not very simplistic. We've got nearly the lowest tax rates in Western Europe. If we raised them we'd raise more money, that's so simplistic its not worth saying. We can use that money as we wish

That’s just one tax though.
Denmarks income tax has a local element to it instead of the council tax we pay. If we go up to their level and still have to pay council tax on top then I’m struggling to see how it’s the same?
Only being able to control one tax is a shocking way to run a society. We don’t even have full control of income tax. We can’t raise income tax on dividends or property income. Only earned income.


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[grunt]

Aye that's the attitude, just stick to how can we improve q y or z when we can't raise our own money line
Why do you constantly misrepresent me? Did I ever say these words? No.

[Stairway 2 7]

That’s just one tax though.
Denmarks income tax has a local element to it instead of the council tax we pay. If we go up to their level and still have to pay council tax on top then I’m struggling to see how it’s the same?
Only being able to control one tax is a shocking way to run a society. We don’t even have full control of income tax. We can’t raise income tax on dividends or property income. Only earned income.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What you guys have to realise is yous are arguing that raising income tax won't raise funds, which is clearly pretty mental. If this is so , then why have a 1% higher rate than England if it doesn't help raise funds. Why not lower it last month?

[Ozyhibby]

What you guys have to realise is yous are arguing that raising income tax won't raise funds, which is clearly pretty mental. If this is so , then why have a 1% higher rate than England if it doesn't help raise funds. Why not lower it last month?

No, I think they will raise income tax next time but not by much. What I’m arguing is that it can’t raise enough and can’t be the whole solution. Also, there is a point where it actually raises less.
Ireland tax companies lightly and yet raise more corporation tax than we can dream of. They are running a govt surplus just now.
You are saying raise income tax to fix the NHS and pay more wages to striking workers. I can’t see how raising that one tax could do all that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

No, I think they will raise income tax next time but not by much. What I’m arguing is that it can’t raise enough and can’t be the whole solution. Also, there is a point where it actually raises less.
Ireland tax companies lightly and yet raise more corporation tax than we can dream of. They are running a govt surplus just now.
You are saying raise income tax to fix the NHS and pay more wages to striking workers. I can’t see how raising that one tax could do all that.


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No your saying I'm saying that. I've repeatedly said it's only one solution, we don't have the other options at our disposal. It won't solve everything but it's a big part of the solution. We have one of the lowest income tax highest rates in w Europe, that's shocking.

As for Ireland I guess you would have been happy with Truss trying to lower corporation tax. I disagree with having a race to the bottom on corporation tax ,allowing billionaires to become richer by paying pitiful tax

[Ozyhibby]

No your saying I'm saying that. I've repeatedly said it's only one solution, we don't have the other options at our disposal. It won't solve everything but it's a big part of the solution. We have one of the lowest income tax highest rates in w Europe, that's shocking.

As for Ireland I guess you would have been happy with Truss trying to lower corporation tax. I disagree with having a race to the bottom on corporation tax ,allowing billionaires to become richer by paying pitiful tax

Yes, but I’ve pointed out that a large part of Denmark’s income tax is actually a local income tax. For us to match it we would have to do away with council tax. That might not be a bad idea but comparing our income tax rate with denmarks is difficult when theirs includes local income tax as well.


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[Moulin Yarns]

What you guys have to realise is yous are arguing that raising income tax won't raise funds, which is clearly pretty mental. If this is so , then why have a 1% higher rate than England if it doesn't help raise funds. Why not lower it last month?

How many times have you been told, in Scotland income tax rates can only be set at the beginning of the financial year.

[Stairway 2 7]

How many times have you been told, in Scotland income tax rates can only be set at the beginning of the financial year.

What's that got to do with anything. Why weren't they. It was clear last winter we'd have unbelievable inflation this year. Instead we didn't raise, nurses are striking and were bringing in eye watering austerity

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes, but I’ve pointed out that a large part of Denmark’s income tax is actually a local income tax. For us to match it we would have to do away with council tax. That might not be a bad idea but comparing our income tax rate with denmarks is difficult when theirs includes local income tax as well.


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Our council tax doesn't nearly make up the difference. Uk is a low tax nation and it shows in our gdp

[Moulin Yarns]

What's that got to do with anything. Why weren't they. It was clear last winter we'd have unbelievable inflation this year. Instead we didn't raise, nurses are striking and were bringing in eye watering austerity

Can you imagine what the outcry would have been like in April, before rampant inflation had happened?!

[Stairway 2 7]

Can you imagine what the outcry would have been like in April, before rampant inflation had happened?!

By April only a complete clown wouldn't think we were on the path we were. Inflation had went almost vertical to 9% from 6% in February. All the estimates had it hitting over 10% in June July and staying, which it did.

The last time someone said yeah we could only put up tax in April, so nurses rises to match inflation was a shock. I put up articles from the ft and from the economist from the end of last year, saying we were going to get massive inflation in 22 and that was post Ukraine

[ronaldo7]

What's that got to do with anything. Why weren't they. It was clear last winter we'd have unbelievable inflation this year. Instead we didn't raise, nurses are striking and were bringing in eye watering austerity

You seem to have a crystal ball regarding our finances. If only the Bank of England had the same crystal ball.

Who are the people that predicted 10% inflation nearly two years ago?

[Stairway 2 7]

You seem to have a crystal ball regarding our finances. If only the Bank of England had the same crystal ball.

Who are the people that predicted 10% inflation nearly two years ago?

What crystal ball was needed inflation was already 9% in April when we could raise it, the disaster had happened already.

But still
June 2021
https://www.google.com/amp/s/au.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/time-bomb-global-economy-013150691.html

May 21
https://archive.ph/eRfts

[Skol]

Yes really. Income Tax is just one tool in the fiscal toolbox. We need access to all the levers of government.

Why does snp policy propose to leave a lever behind ?

[Ozyhibby]

Why does snp policy propose to leave a lever behind ?

Which lever?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Come on that's will account for a miniscule difference

It does now, but if you put the Scottish income tax up 10% higher than rUK then you are at least making higher rate taxpayers consider cross border working. Especially now so many of us can wfh all or part of the time.

Also - does Denmark have anything like National Insurance? It muddies the waters in any comparison.

[Stairway 2 7]

It does now, but if you put the Scottish income tax up 10% higher than rUK then you are at least making higher rate taxpayers consider cross border working. Especially now so many of us can wfh all or part of the time.

Also - does Denmark have anything like National Insurance? It muddies the waters in any comparison.

It's not just Denmark, IMF believe uk is too much of a low tax nation and its hindering growth. Every eu14 nation gets more of its gdb from tax.

It obviously doesn't have to be a 10% rise, but the people moving away to pay less tax is a tory defence. Norway is low tax due to its massive wealth fund, but people aren't moving from the rest of Scandinavia which has much higher tax.

The tories are planning on raising £30 billion in the next budget from raising the highest tax rate apparently. Absolute straw clutching for people to say Scotland couldn’t and shouldn't raise funds from taxing the rich

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not just Denmark, IMF believe uk is too much of a low tax nation and its hindering growth. Every eu14 nation gets more of its gdb from tax.

It obviously doesn't have to be a 10% rise, but the people moving away to pay less tax is a tory defence. Norway is low tax due to its massive wealth fund, but people aren't moving from the rest of Scandinavia which has much higher tax.

The tories are planning on raising £30 billion in the next budget from raising the highest tax rate apparently. Absolute straw clutching for people to say Scotland couldn’t and shouldn't raise funds from taxing the rich

You're missing the point I was making. Norway/Denmark/whoever can control that people who earn money there pay tax there, we can't.

And if you want to tax the rich, you should be taxing unearned income (ie. from investment, shares etc) - we can't - and wealth - again we can't.

The SG is already taxing the better off a bit more by slightly higher rates and diverging tax bands. I agree they could and should go further but I think gradually is the right way to do it rather than a big step.

I also think it's way, way, way beyond the time when we should have replaced council tax with a local income tax and a properly locally set local income tax at that.

[Stairway 2 7]

You're missing the point I was making. Norway/Denmark/whoever can control that people who earn money there pay tax there, we can't.

And if you want to tax the rich, you should be taxing unearned income (ie. from investment, shares etc) - we can't - and wealth - again we can't.

The SG is already taxing the better off a bit more by slightly higher rates and diverging tax bands. I agree they could and should go further but I think gradually is the right way to do it rather than a big step.

I also think it's way, way, way beyond the time when we should have replaced council tax with a local income tax and a properly locally set local income tax at that.

For your first point I'd say more people from Scotland make money from down south than the reverse. You say but yes in the future it could be different, I agree but not that relevant to now.

I've already said income tax I just one tool and a pretty major one. I wish we had more but we don't so use what you can. No one is moving down south due to more tax, everyone on here was arguing that point a month ago.

The tories are planning to raise £30 billion from income tax raises from the highest band.

Scot gov said we brought in just under £500 more last year than we would have if we had England's tax bands. Pretending we can't raise a huge amount of money by raising income tax is a cop out.

[ronaldo7]

What crystal ball was needed inflation was already 9% in April when we could raise it, the disaster had happened already.

But still
June 2021
https://www.google.com/amp/s/au.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/time-bomb-global-economy-013150691.html

May 21
https://archive.ph/eRfts

Thanks for that.

I accept that you're saying income tax is only one of the levers to raise cash to then be used by the government to help its citizens. We had a committee sitting in holyrood the other day make recommendations about borrowing powers for the Scottish Government, where 4 unionist MSPs, two Labour, and two Tory decided that we didn't need them. The same MSPs will be in parliament asking the SG to raise benefits and wages for people in Scotland. Neither wonder we see them as two cheeks.

A HOLYROOD committee report has urged the UK Government to hand “significant” borrowing powers to Holyrood to help tackle the cost-of-living crisis – but Tory and Labour MSPs failed to back the recommendation.

A pre-budget report published by Holyrood’s social justice and social security committee highlighted how it has heard evidence rising costs are creating a “social emergency”, including seeing “increasingly seeing hungry children”.

The committee has called on the Scottish Government to take action such as increasing benefits in line with inflation, saying social security has a “vital role” in supporting those with low incomes.

However the report also cautions that reprioritising spending will “only go so far and will not provide a climate where Scotland can thrive”.

It highlighted evidence given by Dr Alison Hosie, research officer with the Scottish Human Rights Commission, on the issue of tackling the current economic situation and rising inflation.

In a previous committee session she noted the rest of the world "have all been using borrowing powers", adding: "The lack of them is, therefore, a significant limitation, and requesting that borrowing powers be significantly improved is a legitimate ask of the Government in the reassessment of the fiscal framework.”

The report stated: “In light of the evidence received which outlines the difficulties the Scottish Government faces in responding to crises without such powers, we request the UK Government devolves significant borrowing powers.”

SNP MSP Emma Roddick, who sits on the committee, said: "This new report shows clearly that the devolution settlement is not fit for purpose.

"As the cost of living crisis deepens, the Scottish Government is already using the powers it has - but, as is clear in today's report, the Scottish Parliament needs borrowing powers from Westminster to go further.

"The poverty-accelerating welfare policies of the Tories must be reversed and the Scottish Tories need to decide if they will stand up for the people of Scotland or their bosses at Westminster.

"It's only the full powers of independence that protect Scotland from cruel Westminster policies for good - and ensure that decisions about Scotland are taken in Scotland."

But the report also noted the four committee members from opposition parties “dissented” from this recommendation – Conservative MSPs Jeremy Balfour and Miles Briggs, along with Labour’s Pam Duncan-Glancy and Foysol Choudhury.

In April, the Scottish Government announced it would be uprating devolved benefits by 6%, but since, inflation has risen to 10.1% and the committee has urged ministers to further increase the safety net or provide “detailed justification as to why not”.

The report stated: “We recognise the importance of maintaining the real-terms value of benefits. Therefore, we expect the Scottish Government to uprate all Scottish benefits by the September Consumer Prices Index of 10.1% and if this does not happen, we require detailed justification as to why not.”

SNP MSP Natalie Don, who is deputy convenor of the committee, said: “The current cost crisis risks causing severe damage to people and organisations throughout Scotland.

“Our committee believes that by following through on its initial good work to develop a human rights budget process, the Scottish Government can ensure that the voices of people and organisations who are on the front line of the cost crisis will be heard.”

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “The Scottish Government has a legal duty to publish a report each year that sets out the impact of inflation on social security benefits, and our plans for the next financial year. We will do this in due course.

“In April we doubled the Scottish Child Payment to £20 per week per eligible child and this will further increase to £25 per week from 14 November – a rise of 150% in less than eight months providing important additional support for low-income families, which is only available in Scotland.

“In March we also uprated eight other Scottish benefits by 6%, which was significantly higher than the 3.1% CPI by which most UK Government benefits were increased.”

[Stairway 2 7]

Huge. Hopefully can get sorted as snp won't want to be locking horns with the nurses

https://mobile.twitter.com/STVNews/status/1590359108246728708

Nurses across Scotland overwhelmingly vote to strike in historic first

The Royal College of Nursing said the profession has been pushed to the edge at the cost of patient safety

[marinello59]

Huge. Hopefully can get sorted as snp won't want to be locking horns with the nurses

https://mobile.twitter.com/STVNews/status/1590359108246728708

Nurses across Scotland overwhelmingly vote to strike in historic first

The Royal College of Nursing said the profession has been pushed to the edge at the cost of patient safety

Well done to the Nurses, I hope everybody gets behind them 100%.

[grunt]

Huge. Hopefully can get sorted as snp won't want to be locking horns with the nurses

https://mobile.twitter.com/STVNews/status/1590359108246728708

Nurses across Scotland overwhelmingly vote to strike in historic first

The Royal College of Nursing said the profession has been pushed to the edge at the cost of patient safetyIt's a nationwide strike across pretty much the whole of the UK. Why are you seeking to imply that it's a problem just for the SNP?

[Stairway 2 7]

It's a nationwide strike across the whole of the UK. Why are you seeking to imply that it's a problem just for the SNP?

Because I'm not talking about English nurses or their offer in their separate NHS. Do you think if scot gov gave them what they were asking for they would still be striking, come on

[JeMeSouviens]

Well done to the Nurses, I hope everybody gets behind them 100%.

:agree:

I'm sure everyone that was out clapping will be in full support.

[Since90+2]

Nurses asking for a 17% wage rise effectively?

[Stairway 2 7]

Nurses asking for a 17% wage rise effectively?

Id doubt it, where have you read that. They were balloted and rejected 5%

[marinello59]

It's a nationwide strike across pretty much the whole of the UK. Why are you seeking to imply that it's a problem just for the SNP?

I didn’t realise which thread this was on when I commented, it probably deserves one of its own. Hopefully people can concentrate on the rights or wrongs of the nurses case rather than it becoming a defence of perceived slights against the SNP as discussions around other Union disputes on here did.
For me it will always be a case of Which Side are you on? Who the boss is doesn’t concern me much. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

SG should offer 6% just now plus promise to match any offer made down south and back date it accordingly. That way Scottish nurses can stay at work on better pay while still benefitting from industrial action down south. SG benefits from having nurses at work and knows that any offer down south will trigger the appropriate Barnett consequentials.


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[grunt]

I didn’t realise which thread this was on when I commented, it probably deserves one of its own. Hopefully people can concentrate on the rights or wrongs of the nurses case rather than it becoming a defence of perceived slights against the SNP as discussions around other Union disputes on here did.
For me it will always be a case of Which Side are you on? Who the boss is doesn’t concern me much. :greengrin
Thanks for criticising my post. I was simply pointing out that a post about "how are the SNP going to deal with the nurses strike?" kind of implies it's only a Scottish issue. While I understand that we have a separate NHS here, it is clear that this issue is wider than just Scotland. But carry on, focus on the mess that the Scottish Govt have got into over NHS pay and ignore that it's happening all over the country.

As for concentrating on the nurses case, strangely, I'm able to concentrate on multiple issues at the same time. Go me.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thanks for criticising my post. I was simply pointing out that a post about "how are the SNP going to deal with the nurses strike?" kind of implies it's only a Scottish issue. While I understand that we have a separate NHS here, it is clear that this issue is wider than just Scotland. But carry on, focus on the mess that the Scottish Govt have got into over NHS pay and ignore that it's happening all over the country.

As for concentrating on the nurses case, strangely, I'm able to concentrate on multiple issues at the same time. Go me.

Do you reckon snp could do anything you would criticise?

[marinello59]

Thanks for criticising my post. I was simply pointing out that a post about "how are the SNP going to deal with the nurses strike?" kind of implies it's only a Scottish issue. While I understand that we have a separate NHS here, it is clear that this issue is wider than just Scotland. But carry on, focus on the mess that the Scottish Govt have got into over NHS pay and ignore that it's happening all over the country.

As for concentrating on the nurses case, strangely, I'm able to concentrate on multiple issues at the same time. Go me.

I was sort of agreeing with you in that a thread with this title isn’t the place for this topic. No offence was meant. No idea why you are telling me to carry on focussing on the mess the Scottish Government has made. I’ll try not to start doing that though :greengrin

[Jack]

SG should offer 6% just now plus promise to match any offer made down south and back date it accordingly. That way Scottish nurses can stay at work on better pay while still benefitting from industrial action down south. SG benefits from having nurses at work and knows that any offer down south will trigger the appropriate Barnett consequentials.


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Great idea.

[Stairway 2 7]

SG should offer 6% just now plus promise to match any offer made down south and back date it accordingly. That way Scottish nurses can stay at work on better pay while still benefitting from industrial action down south. SG benefits from having nurses at work and knows that any offer down south will trigger the appropriate Barnett consequentials.


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Accept a huge pay cut with the promise of maybes, the Tories are likely to never offer a fair deal. Scottish nurses overwhelmingly rejected scot govs real time pay cut. They have to give them a fair offer or they strike.

Lots of snp supporters online tonight acting like Tories with the I would love an inflation matching rise too, well unionise and if needed withdraw your work.

[marinello59]

Great idea.

It’s not really. 6% is effectively a cut. Abdicating responsibility and leaving the fate of the nurses in the hands of the Tories at Westminster isn’t the answer.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nurses asking for a 17% wage rise effectively?

Is it not 5% above inflation, but inflation isn't fixed, so, at the moment that's 15%

[grunt]

I was sort of agreeing with you in that a thread with this title isn’t the place for this topic. No offence was meant.
Sorry. Seem to be a bit raw just now.

[wookie70]

Nurses asking for a 17% wage rise effectively?

5% above inflation is what their claim asks for but not sure what measure they are using. It will still end up that nurses are worse paid now than when the Tories came in even if they are successful. It is not a greedy claim as they, like most public servants, have had their salaries and pensions slashed since the Tories arrived.

Scotland has done slightly better in terms of Public Service remuneration but the vast majority of public servants earn considerably less in real terms than they did in 2010. Scottish Civil Servants will find out tomorrow if we have voted for strike action with everything suggesting it will be comfortably over the thresholds of teh anti union voting legislation. Other Unions and workers will follow as we are nearing the point where there is little left to lose and we have suffered one too many pokes to the chest and cannot hold back any longer. The SNP have done a decent job of appearing to be a reasonable employer but that is only due to teh appalling way the Westminster Government have treated its employees.

[marinello59]

Sorry. Seem to be a bit raw just now.

No problem. Think we are all a bit raw, our football club doesn’t help. :greengrin

[Skol]

Which lever?


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We plan to let the BoE make decisions on interest rates for an unspecified period of time whilst absolving them of any need to consider Scotland. You knew that though

[Stairway 2 7]

5% above inflation is what their claim asks for but not sure what measure they are using. It will still end up that nurses are worse paid now than when the Tories came in even if they are successful. It is not a greedy claim as they, like most public servants, have had their salaries and pensions slashed since the Tories arrived.

Scotland has done slightly better in terms of Public Service remuneration but the vast majority of public servants earn considerably less in real terms than they did in 2010. Scottish Civil Servants will find out tomorrow if we have voted for strike action with everything suggesting it will be comfortably over the thresholds of teh anti union voting legislation. Other Unions and workers will follow as we are nearing the point where there is little left to lose and we have suffered one too many pokes to the chest and cannot hold back any longer. The SNP have done a decent job of appearing to be a reasonable employer but that is only due to teh appalling way the Westminster Government have treated its employees.

The 5% was when the rpi was 7.5 so a 12.5% increase, this was due to years of under inflation rises. The rpi is now 12% but they haven't said they want 5% above, they have just rejected the government offers

[Hibrandenburg]

We plan to let the BoE make decisions on interest rates for an unspecified period of time whilst absolving them of any need to consider Scotland. You knew that though

So the current status quo.

[Skol]

So the current status quo.

Nope although nationalists believe that to be the case.

[Since90+2]

Id doubt it, where have you read that. They were balloted and rejected 5%

5% plus the current inflation rate is what they want

[Since90+2]

The 5% was when the rpi was 7.5 so a 12.5% increase, this was due to years of under inflation rises. The rpi is now 12% but they haven't said they want 5% above, they have just rejected the government offers

The RCN, which represents about two-thirds of nurses in the NHS, has asked for 5% above the RPI rate of inflation, which stands at over 12%.

From the article on BBC.

[Stairway 2 7]

5% plus the current inflation rate is what they want

That's Good, I doubt they will get it but the offer of 5% is a p take. They have had bellow inflation rises for 13 years. Its a much much lower paid job than it was a decade ago and with high inflation its at breaking point.

Starmer for example should be pushing for it. If he can't see the parallel between saying this week that not enough British people are becoming nurses and the fact their wages have been more than decimated, then he's dafter than I thought

[Stairway 2 7]

Good article on the nurses perspective

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/workforce/nurses-working-one-out-of-five-days-for-free-report-finds-28-10-2022/#:~:text=The%20new%20analysis%20shows%20that,rise% 20of%2039%25%20above%20the

Nurses are working one out of every five days for free because of a decade of real terms pay cuts, new analysis has revealed

The new analysis shows that given the currently very high rates of inflation, nurses at the top of Band 5 in England, Wales and Northern Ireland would need a pay rise of 45% over the next two years to achieve the same real earnings as they had in 2010-11, while nurses in Scotland would need a pay rise of 39% above the June 2022 pay offer.

In addition, it found a clear relationship between declining nurse salaries and the rate at which nurses are leaving the NHS workforce.

The total number of nurses leaving the NHS every year rose from 27,000 in 2010-11 to 38,000 in 2021-22, according to the report.

[Since90+2]

That's Good, I doubt they will get it but the offer of 5% is a p take. They have had bellow inflation rises for 13 years. Its a much much lower paid job than it was a decade ago and with high inflation its at breaking point.

Starmer for example should be pushing for it. If he can't see the parallel between saying this week that not enough British people are becoming nurses and the fact their wages have been more than decimated, then he's dafter than I thought

What public sector service doesn't deserve 17% then? Police? fire Service? Prison Service? What about the armed forces?

If the general consensus is that they all deserve 17%, had anyone done calculations on what that would cost and how it would actually be paid.

[Stairway 2 7]

What public sector service doesn't deserve 17% then? Police? fire Service? Prison Service? What about the armed forces?

If the general consensus is that they all deserve 17%, had anyone done calculations on what that would cost and how it would actually be paid.

None of the above have had the reductions of nurses so that's not the general consensus. It's got to breaking point. As the article says it would take a 40% rise over the next 2 years, just for them to be paid the same as they were just over a decade ago.

How did the governments let this happen, I'm sure your as furious as me that it has.

All of the above should be pushing for near inflation rises if they have a union worth their salt. And the fact is this is obviously a starting point for negotiations, the counter offer was 5%. In reality I bet they settle with bellow inflation and the problem get deeper, until eventually nursing is a job that struggles to pay the bills

[Since90+2]

None of the above have had the reductions of nurses so that's not the general consensus. It's got to breaking point. As the article says it would take a 40% rise over the next 2 years, just for them to be paid the same as they were just over a decade ago.

How did the governments let this happen, I'm sure your as furious as me that it has.

All of the above should be pushing for near inflation rises if they have a union worth their salt. And the fact is this is obviously a starting point for negotiations, the counter offer was 5%. In reality I bet they settle with bellow inflation and the problem get deeper, until eventually nursing is a job that struggles to pay the bills

Your first sentence, are you absolutely sure about that? In Scotland for instance it equates to an average 8% rise this year alone.

How do their wage increases over the last decade compare with the prison service for example?

If you think all the unions should be pushing for above inflation, where do you think the money should come from?

[Stairway 2 7]

Your first sentence, are you absolutely sure about that? In Scotland for instance it equates to an average 8% rise this year alone.

How do their wage increases over the last decade compare with the prison service for example?

If you think all the unions should be pushing for above inflation, where do you think the money should come from?

Your right prison Service workers were actually one of the ones with a bigger drop than nurses. It's a disgrace seeing the hard job they do. They badly need a strong union, the train drivers show what can be done. A labour party isn't a labour party in my opinion if they don't think the erosion of public service wages need reversed.

What the tories want you to do is what your doing, what about this job or that. They pushed that during the train drivers strike. The fact is all jobs should fight not to get their wages greatly reduced and striking although a last resort is needed sometimes

[Stairway 2 7]

Your first sentence, are you absolutely sure about that? In Scotland for instance it equates to an average 8% rise this year alone.

How do their wage increases over the last decade compare with the prison service for example?

If you think all the unions should be pushing for above inflation, where do you think the money should come from?

As for the other tory line, where does the money come from.

All governments have a budget. Imagine a pie chart with 100 slices that need put in. If wages need to go up the slices get bigger but they simply need put in first. You then add the slices starting from most important to least until you make harder decisions on the less important, for example new roads or culture. They are still important to a nation but you only do what you can once the main bills are paid, any competent government can and is tasked to do this

[Since90+2]

Your right prison Service workers were actually one of the ones with a bigger drop than nurses. It's a disgrace seeing the hard job they do. They badly need a strong union, the train drivers show what can be done. A labour party isn't a labour party in my opinion if they don't think the erosion of public service wages need reversed.

What the tories want you to do is what your doing, what about this job or that. They pushed that during the train drivers strike. The fact is all jobs should fight not to get their wages greatly reduced and striking although a last resort is needed sometimes

So you were wrong on prison service. You absolutely sure with the others?

And please stop with the Tory line, it's a lazy arguement someone trots out when they have posted something incorrect and need to fall back on it.

You have no idea if I support the nurses or not, my question was simply is the general consensus that all public services should get 17% and if so, how do we propose it is paid for.

[Since90+2]

As for the other tory line, where does the money come from.

All governments have a budget. Imagine a pie chart with 100 slices that need put in. If wages need to go up the slices get bigger but they simply need put in first. You then add the slices starting from most important to least until you make harder decisions on the less important, for example new roads or culture. They are still important to a nation but you only do what you can once the main bills are paid, any competent government can and is tasked to do this

Thanks for that terribly condensing second paragraph, but for someone who just a post or two ago posted something factually incorrect, I'd hang back on the lectures.

[Stairway 2 7]

So you were wrong on prison service. You absolutely sure with the others?

And please stop with the Tory line, it's a lazy arguement someone trots out when they have posted something incorrect and need to fall back on it.

You have no idea if I support the nurses or not, my question was simply is the general consensus that all public services should get 17% and if so, how do we propose it is paid for.

I won't say tory, I will say right wing attitude to compare jobs and have them competing.

I'll admit I was wrong I don't know the percentage dropped by every single public service. It completely doesn't matter if someone is getting shafted more than the nurse's, that's up to their union. Of course every public service should not get pay cuts and I've answered how it should be paid for, from the budget. It's literally the government's job and any left wing government should priorities workers rights and wages

[Stairway 2 7]

Thanks for that terribly condensing second paragraph, but for someone who just a post or two ago posted something factually incorrect, I'd hang back on the lectures.

So do you think nurses and other public services should get effective pay cuts? You've no really said, I assume you do as your saying where does the money come from on repeat.

[marinello59]

What public sector service doesn't deserve 17% then? Police? fire Service? Prison Service? What about the armed forces?

If the general consensus is that they all deserve 17%, had anyone done calculations on what that would cost and how it would actually be paid.

Any group of workers who have seen their wages eroded over the years are perfectly entitled to push for that to be rectified. The bosses will of course try and portray their demands as being unreasonable and tell them the pot is empty. And inevitably they will try and pit one group of workers against another in terms of who is the most deserving. I have zero sympathy for them no matter who they are, there’s only one side to be on in my book.
People were happy to clap for the public sector workers. Time to give them what they are worth and if that means taxes go up so be it. There was plenty of money found to protect businesses etc during Covid. Surely protecting the NHS is just as important, if the will is there then the money will be found.

[Since90+2]

Any group of workers who have seen their wages eroded over the years are perfectly entitled to push for that to be rectified. The bosses will of course try and portray their demands as being unreasonable and tell them the pot is empty. And inevitably they will try and pit one group of workers against another in terms of who is the most deserving. I have zero sympathy for them no matter who they are, there’s only one side to be on in my book.
People were happy to clap for the public sector workers. Time to give them what they are worth and if that means taxes go up so be it. There was plenty of money found to protect businesses etc during Covid. Surely protecting the NHS is just as important, if the will is there then the money will be found.

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with.

[grunt]

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

[Since90+2]

Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

That's the point isn't is.

As my point above says, that proposition essentially means you'd have workers who have received absolutely no wage rise or a minimal one like 3-4%, need to have less disposable income so a workforce offered 8% can be given a 17% increase.

That's not putting people against one another, it's the reality of the situation.

Personally, I think Nurses deserve a good increase but they won't get 17%, otherwise the floodgates will open and every public sector workers will ask for the same.

Something around the rate of inflation, 11 or 12% is probably correct IMO.

For context, my wife is a Nurse for the NHS.

[marinello59]

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with

I said if taxes have to go up then so be it. If. I think the money can and will be found if the politicians want to find it. The NHS is facing a staffing crisis largely down to pay and conditions. That has to be fixed.

If the nurses do get 10% and they are happy with it then that would be a considerable victory for them in the face of those trying to portray their demands as unreasonable and unrealistic.

[Zambernardi1875]

Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

This will only accelerate the privatisation of the nhs and people will be more accepting of it.

[Hibbyradge]

This will only accelerate the privatisation of the nhs and people will be more accepting of it.

I don't think people in the UK ever accept the wholesale privatisation of the NHS.

If it is to happen, it'll be done piecemeal and by stealth.

[Stairway 2 7]

Public Sector wages have dropped on average 6% in the last decade, private sector 2%. Private sector workers should unionise too to prevent that.

Nurses have dropped 8% on average but grade 5 Nurses have dropped 20% in a decade, how is that acceptable. We should be fighting against that, thankfully the union are finally doing something about it. There is an obvious correlation between their wages being hammered and the staffing crisis they have.

They will find the funds in the budget. But if the question was would you pay more tax for better services I'm sure most would say yes

[Stairway 2 7]

Enough is Enough
@eiecampaign
·

Why are nurses striking?

💵 Real pay down £4,300 since 2010

🧣 1 in 3 struggling to afford food and heating

🥫 1 in 8 forced to use foodbanks in last year

🏥 40,000 nurse shortfall means brutal hours

🤕 3 in 4 Trusts report mental health crisis

[Jack]

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with.

Hypothetically there are many more tax income streams for the government other than income tax.

[Berwickhibby]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

[weecounty hibby]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

I could counter by asking why unionists and loyalist have hijacked remembrance to push their own agendas and try to shame anyone who doesn't kow tow to wearing a poppy but I wont. Remembrance used to be a week or two at most and pretty dignified but it's now a year round thing and just look at Ibrox last night and then talk about hijacking!

[He's here!]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

Is this standard practice among SNP MSPs? I saw a story about Michelle Thomson doing so but thought it was just her. Pretty tacky stuff nevertheless.

I was actually more surprised to see she's back in the SNP. I thought she got kicked out a few years back.

[Alex Trager]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

Why would the PPU give their money to the charities that the BL support?

They support different causes.

No one is hijacking anything, wear whatever poppy you want.

I am against war so wear a white poppy. I could wear no poppy but I want to respect the people who have died to give us what we have.

I never think I am hijacking the red poppy cause. I disagree with the red poppy.

I’ve not seen the SNP yes white poppies, any idea where I could get one? ;-)

I won’t be buying one of them, for clarity.

[weecounty hibby]

Is this standard practice among SNP MSPs? I saw a story about Michelle Thomson doing so but thought it was just her. Pretty tacky stuff nevertheless.

I was actually more surprised to see she's back in the SNP. I thought she got kicked out a few years back.

What should be standard practice for poppy wearing? Mandatory for all? Must be a red one? Minimum donation level. Its pathetic, every single year the poppy police get on their high horses and try to cone over as all superior. And for the record I do contribute to the poppy fund but very rarely actually wear a poppy

[He's here!]

What should be standard practice for poppy wearing? Mandatory for all? Must be a red one? Minimum donation level. Its pathetic, every single year the poppy police get on their high horses and try to cone over as all superior. And for the record I do contribute to the poppy fund but very rarely actually wear a poppy

I meant the Yes badge tacked on to hers. Seemed unnecessarily political.

Aside from that I've never really got why folk get so worked up about poppy wearing these days. If you don't want to wear one then don't.

[Berwickhibby]

I could counter by asking why unionists and loyalist have hijacked remembrance to push their own agendas and try to shame anyone who doesn't kow tow to wearing a poppy but I wont. Remembrance used to be a week or two at most and pretty dignified but it's now a year round thing and just look at Ibrox last night and then talk about hijacking!

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

[hibby rae]

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

But those who wear a white poppy probably wouldn't wear a red one. So I don't think either are taking away funding in that respect

[weecounty hibby]

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

Where did I defend them? I just can't stand the I'm better than you cos I wear a red poppy brigade. Every ****ing year without fail. You may not want to hear it but the poppy has been taken over as a signal for loyalists and unionism and has become very political. And actually some of the merchandise is as tacky as **** and imo diisrespects the fallen more than someone wearing a white poppy in remembrance of ALL deaths due to war. As I say I always make a contribution but very seldom wear a poppy, I don't need to make that particular statement to show my respects

[Since90+2]

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

[CropleyWasGod]

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

It's also been around for almost 90 years.

[marinello59]

White, red or none, I don’t care. I do what I do and am happy to leave others to do the same.
The MSP in question didn’t set out to offend anybody , there really is nothing here to get worked up about.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

As a former squaddie do you not want peace? I assume you know that the white poppy is a symbol of peace.


https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance-white-poppies


Been worn for 90 years.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

Oh here we ****ing go, it's started late this year but I guess it was inevitable. I used to wear my poppy in a show of respect for those who paid the ultimate price for my freedom, now I'm almost ashamed to wear it because it is now a source of conflict rather than a symbol of peace. The right have hijacked it and turned it into a competition to see who can virtue signal the loudest and use it as a weapon to beat political opponents with. Just **** off with your poppy wars.

[AgentDaleCooper]

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

my grandad always wore a white poppy as he was a conscientious objector after WWII - i.e. it wasn't that he was refusing to go to war, it had finished, he was refusing to do military service in peace time so did a stint in jail instead.

The army is in principle an apolitical entity, but in reality, it's use is always tied in with empire, whether that's in aggression or in defence - in the UK's case, the former far, far more than the latter. You could make the case for the troubles being defensive, but there is still a debate to be had there, and it's certainly the legacy of empire. WWII was essentially a horrific hangover of the previous war between competing empires...I know you don't need a history lesson...I just think it's entirely valid to want to check out of the entire practice and indeed protest against it (peacefully) is one's perspective is that the whole remembrance thing in some way glorifies the deaths of poor people fighting rich peoples' wars. It certainly isn't a dig at the people who have died and are being remembered, though.

The other element is that it is a complete disgrace that veterans charities need to exist - if the state is going to send people off to war, surely it is the state's responsibility to look after them properly when they return, should they require support? The whole remembrance thing seems to be an exercise in pawning off responsibility on that front.

[Alex Trager]

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

Which is what the RBL started out to pursue.

Peace that is.

I don’t think they honoured all who fell in war.

They pursue peace whilst also supporting armed forces day which is a day to sell the idea of joining the forces. It is contradictory.

Of course the work the RBL does with vets should be applauded.

The PPU wants no vets.

As for the PPU ‘using’ remembrance day as a way to ‘advertise’.

I’m not entirely sure when else someone would expect that people would wear a white poppy.

You can purchase a white poppy all year round if you should want to.

[Stairway 2 7]

Both red and white poppies have been hijacked, by right wing and stop the war pacifists. Wonder if when the last of the world war veterans pass people will stop using war to score points.

[Kato]

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.It's only whataboutery because it's something you yourself care so much about, which you are entitled to do. From other people's point of view its sowhataboutery. People are allowed to donate to what they want. For what it's worth the "yes" in the middle is pretty shan, whether they are trying to be provocative or countering the doolally edge of "poppy enforcers" or just think it looks good they look crappy imo. Then again, so what?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Alex Trager]

Both red and white poppies have been hijacked, by right wing and stop the war pacifists. Wonder if when the last of the world war veterans pass people will stop using war to score points.

The white poppy is the symbol of the peace pledge union.

I’m not sure who you would expect to wear it, other than those who want wars to stop?

[Glory Lurker]

The "yes" on Thomson's poppy is extremely crass. She's definitely someone I'd rather was an Alba member.

[Since90+2]

The white poppy is the symbol of the peace pledge union.

I’m not sure who you would expect to wear it, other than those who want wars to stop?

Agreed, not sure being a "stop the war pacifist" could be deemed anything other than a good thing. I'd be quite happy if people who wanted to stop wars hijacked things, but maybe that's just me.

[marinello59]

The white poppy is the symbol of the peace pledge union.

I’m not sure who you would expect to wear it, other than those who want wars to stop?

To be fair those who have fought in them and are wearing the red poppy are just as likely to want wars to stop.

‘War is sweet to those who have not experienced it.’ (Erasmus)

[Stairway 2 7]

The white poppy is the symbol of the peace pledge union.

I’m not sure who you would expect to wear it, other than those who want wars to stop?

I mean the actual stop the war coalition. They have pushed it heavily. They want to stop unjust wars they say but pick and choose. They are too divisive, like not attacking assad in Syria.

While I disagree with the peace pledge Union at least they are consistent in opposing all wars.

[Stairway 2 7]

Pacifism is fine until an aggressor attacks you or someone else unjustly.

I also think the red poppy is for all victims of war, although its got beyond ridiculous and lost all original meaning

[Alex Trager]

Pacifism is fine until an aggressor attacks you or someone else unjustly.

I also think the red poppy is for all victims of war, although its got beyond ridiculous and lost all original meaning

How can the RBL be pro peace whilst sponsoring armed forces day? It makes no sense.

[Stairway 2 7]

How can the RBL be pro peace whilst sponsoring armed forces day? It makes no sense.

I didn't say they were pro peace?

[CropleyWasGod]

SNP to open up new route for people smuggling.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/new-ferry-route-between-scotland-28436043

[Stairway 2 7]

SNP to open up new route for people smuggling.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/new-ferry-route-between-scotland-28436043

Put it on the holiday thread. I like the idea but since read its 20 hours so 2 days of your holiday. Might be good for trucks not wanting the mess at the channel, hopefully kicks on

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63572743.amp

Teachers in Scotland will stage a 24-hour walkout on 24 November after voting overwhelmingly to strike in a dispute over pay.

Members of the EIS union rejected a 5% pay offer, saying they wanted 10%.

EIS general secretary Andrea Bradley said they had become "increasingly angry over their treatment" by employers and the Scottish government.

Deputy First Minister John Swinney previously said there was no more money to fund public sector pay rises.

The move comes after Scotland's largest nursing union voted to go on strike for the first time ever in a dispute over pay.

The EIS said 96% of its members backed a teachers' strike on a 71% turnout

[hibee]

SNP to open up new route for people smuggling.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/new-ferry-route-between-scotland-28436043

We’ve had a ferry on that route before but the problem is it will probably be cheaper and quicker just to drive to England and travel from there.

[ronaldo7]

Oh here we ****ing go, it's started late this year but I guess it was inevitable. I used to wear my poppy in a show of respect for those who paid the ultimate price for my freedom, now I'm almost ashamed to wear it because it is now a source of conflict rather than a symbol of peace. The right have hijacked it and turned it into a competition to see who can virtue signal the loudest and use it as a weapon to beat political opponents with. Just **** off with your poppy wars.

:top marks

[Moulin Yarns]

As someone who has worn a white poppy, they come with a bit of wire to put through a buttonhole and I have fixed in place with the safety pin.

Assuming Michelle Thomson doesn't have a buttonhole in her lapel then fixing the poppy with a pin badge seems sensible. Unfortunately opponents only see the badge and get all offended.

[xyz23jc]

Put it on the holiday thread. I like the idea but since read its 20 hours so 2 days of your holiday. Might be good for trucks not wanting the mess at the channel, hopefully kicks on

2 Days on a boat...Till ye reach yer destination.....Wi Fid n' Drink... Fae Edinburgh or theraboots...?
Where dae a sign up Sir! :greengrin

Saor Alba

[Jack]

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

How do you feel about the other veteran charities who use this time of year to concentrate their fund raising activities on the back of the poppy?

Personally I'm a bit saddened by it as I feel it's taking money that would have gone to the poppy appeal.

[Jack]

SNP to open up new route for people smuggling.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/new-ferry-route-between-scotland-28436043

I've seen this in a few media outlets recently.

I'm not asking you personally but this was originally announced back in June! Why the fuss now?

[Keith_M]

I've got a red poppy on the door of my fridge.

I long considered myself a pacifist, but I bought this after living in Ypres for a while (work contract) and visiting the many museums that went into great detail on the death and suffering of the millions of young men sacrificed by their 'betters' in WW1 (the war to end all wars).

One of the museums I visited was particularly poignant as the building itself was used as a hospital during the war. There were photographs of those poor young guys alongside letters they sent to their parents. It was pretty moving stuff.


How anybody, like the Right-wingers and their Loyalist/Rangers counterparts, can politicize that disgusts me to a level that I couldn't possibly put into words.


Putting a political slogan... even one I agree with... on a poppy on Remembrance Day? Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

[greenlex]

I've got a red poppy on the door of my fridge.

I long considered myself a pacifist, but I bought this after living in Ypres for a while (work contract) and visiting the many museums that went into great detail on the death and suffering of the millions of young men sacrificed by their 'betters' in WW1 (the war to end all wars).

One of the museums I visited was particularly poignant as the building itself was used as a hospital during the war. There were photographs of those poor young guys alongside letters they sent to their parents. It was pretty moving stuff.


How anybody, like the Right-wingers and their Loyalist/Rangers counterparts, can politicize that disgusts me to a level that I couldn't possibly put into words.


Putting a political slogan... even one I agree with... on a poppy on Remembrance Day? Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.
I couldn’t agree more. Another thing that is jarring with me is these enamelled pin badges with a poppy and a football club. Is there any real need for it. I think it sums up the need to seen doing it type of thing. I also recoiled at the poppy wreath produced with the Hibs badge in the middle. Same type of thing.
I myself do not wear one but give very generously to the poppy appeal. I pay my respects and remember. That’s enough for me .
Possibly the wrong thread for this

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/euan-mccolm-sturgeons-free-ride-may-soon-be-at-an-end-n2stldn63

Yada yada Euan McColm, right wing commentator etc etc...but he makes some good points.

[grunt]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/euan-mccolm-sturgeons-free-ride-may-soon-be-at-an-end-n2stldn63

Yada yada Euan McColm, right wing commentator etc etc...but he makes some good points.Could only see the first two paragraphs but every single word of those paragraphs was complete bollocks. Perhaps it improves later on.

[Hibbyradge]

Could only see the first two paragraphs but every single word of those paragraphs was complete bollocks. Perhaps it improves later on.

It won't.

It's an opinion piece written from an anti Sturgeon position. There's no objectivity.

[Kato]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/euan-mccolm-sturgeons-free-ride-may-soon-be-at-an-end-n2stldn63

Yada yada Euan McColm, right wing commentator etc etc...but he makes some good points.Behind a paywall. What are the good points the right wing commentator expresses?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

Some clown has torched the War Memorial at the City Chambers. Nae need for that nonsense.

[Bristolhibby]

I couldn’t agree more. Another thing that is jarring with me is these enamelled pin badges with a poppy and a football club. Is there any real need for it. I think it sums up the need to seen doing it type of thing. I also recoiled at the poppy wreath produced with the Hibs badge in the middle. Same type of thing.
I myself do not wear one but give very generously to the poppy appeal. I pay my respects and remember. That’s enough for me .
Possibly the wrong thread for this

TBF that wreath was laid by Hibernian FC on behalf of players and fans who have died in war.

Seems fitting that we as a club put our club crest in the wreath.

J

[Just Alf]

TBF that wreath was laid by Hibernian FC on behalf of players and fans who have died in war.

Seems fitting that we as a club put our club crest in the wreath.

JI see it that way as well... on the other hand, those wee metal badges etc are a different matter... they might be officially sanctioned by the Lady Haig guys and get money from them tho? :dunno:

Ps still think it's a bit "off" ....

[Stairway 2 7]

Some clown has torched the War Memorial at the City Chambers. Nae need for that nonsense.

Set fire to the wreaths on the high Street and someone also destroyed the poppy display beside the Scott monument, brain dead

[CropleyWasGod]

Some clown has torched the War Memorial at the City Chambers. Nae need for that nonsense.


Set fire to the wreaths on the high Street and someone also destroyed the poppy display beside the Scott monument, brain dead

Was it SNP supporters that did it?

[He's here!]

Was it SNP supporters that did it?

F***ing morons whoever it was but yes this is for a new thread.

[Stairway 2 7]

Was it SNP supporters that did it?

Well there was a conversation about wreaths remembrance so I assume that's why bb brought it up. If no threads went in any tangents this forum would have about a quarter of the posts.

It's clearly nothing to do with the snp and just some nutter and I'm sure everyone clearly knows that

[CropleyWasGod]

Well there was a conversation about wreaths remembrance so I assume that's why bb brought it up. If no threads went in any tangents this forum would have about a quarter of the posts.

It's clearly nothing to do with the snp and just some nutter and I'm sure everyone clearly knows that

Cool.

I saw some Twatters suggesting/assuming it was, and thought I'd maybe missed something.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sturgeon's days are surely numbered now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-doll-hushes-puppies-and-is-catnip-for-cats-l775bx33n

Ps. That's a dog in the photo, not a cat.

[grunt]

Sturgeon's days are surely numbered now.
The Times. A once renowned newspaper.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sturgeon's days are surely numbered now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-doll-hushes-puppies-and-is-catnip-for-cats-l775bx33n

Ps. That's a dog in the photo, not a cat.

Had to look and the Priti Patel doll is pure evil 😈

[Berwickhibby]

Proceeds of crime hearing against Natalie McGarry to seize money that she stole. Suggests that she owns a property or has funds in an account.

[CropleyWasGod]

Proceeds of crime hearing against Natalie McGarry to seize money that she stole. Suggests that she owns a property or has funds in an account.

I saw that.

They are chasing her for £162k, when she "only" stole £25k. Why so much more?

If she managed to make over £135k from a £25k investment, I want her IFA :greengrin

Edit. The legal costs for the prosecution were over £122k, so that may be the reason. Didn't know that came under the definition of POC. Does that mean that every convicted person can be done for thelr legal costs as well?

[marinello59]

I saw that.

They are chasing her for £162k, when she "only" stole £25k. Why so much more?

If she managed to make over £135k from a £25k investment, I want her IFA :greengrin

Edit. The legal costs for the prosecution were over £122k, so that may be the reason. Didn't know that came under the definition of POC. Does that mean that every convicted person can be done for thelr legal costs as well?

Could it be that she has a property and this initial figure makes no allowance for any mortgage there may be on it? If that makes sense.:greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

Could it be that she has a property and this initial figure makes no allowance for any mortgage there may be on it? If that makes sense.:greengrin

Not sure I do understand? I was thinking the sum they are looking to reclaim maybe was to cover legal costs with the additional costs of the retrial? Whatever, I still don't believe she should have been jailed. Really feel for her daughter in all this.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could it be that she has a property and this initial figure makes no allowance for any mortgage there may be on it? If that makes sense.:greengrin

I wondered that, too.

But.... if they recover £162k from the property sale, who pays off the mortgage? In that scenario, she loses the property and still has the mortgage to pay.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wondered that, too.

But.... if they recover £162k from the property sale, who pays off the mortgage? In that scenario, she loses the property and still has the mortgage to pay.

According to the Herald the "criminal benefit" amount is £131K.


How is criminal benefit defined?

Criminal benefit is defined as the income and revenue generated and those taxes and fees avoid by the unlawful, criminal activity that the individual or organisation have been found guilty of committing.

Could be she used the money towards a house purchase with her new husband the Tory councillor? And £131K is the equity they've built up in the meantime?

[CropleyWasGod]

According to the Herald the "criminal benefit" amount is £131K.



Could be she used the money towards a house purchase with her new husband the Tory councillor? And £131K is the equity they've built up in the meantime?

Possibly.

3 things:-

1. she was broke, and had a lot of debt. I thought that was the main reason for the theft.

2. it would only be her share of the increase.

3. that's some jump in equity. Again, I want her adviser :greengrin

[grunt]

Maybe she put the £25k on Hibs to win in 2016?

[CropleyWasGod]

Turns our that the Crown are going after "unexplained wealth". Sounds like it will be up to her to prove its source.

[marinello59]

Turns our that the Crown are going after "unexplained wealth". Sounds like it will be up to her to prove its source.

Ah. That makes sense.

[JeMeSouviens]

Turns our that the Crown are going after "unexplained wealth". Sounds like it will be up to her to prove its source.

For her sake, I hope she does better than we've managed. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

For her sake, I hope she does better than we've managed. :greengrin

:)))

[Jack]

Turns our that the Crown are going after "unexplained wealth". Sounds like it will be up to her to prove its source.

I'd imagine there will be a more than a few tory wives watching this with interest!

[grunt]

Oh.

https://archive.ph/hX1Yt


Unions reacted with fury today after the Tories “betrayed” British workers by handing a £1.6billion shipbuilding contract to a Spanish-led bid.

A senior Labour MP accused Defence Secretary Ben Wallace (https://archive.ph/o/hX1Yt/https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/ben-wallace) of “stabbing” UK industry “in the back” after he confirmed the deal to build three Fleet Solid Support ships would be given to the Team Resolute consortium, spearheaded by Madrid-based Navantia.

[Jack]

Oh.

https://archive.ph/hX1Yt

But are they complex ships? 😉

[Ozyhibby]

But are they complex ships? [emoji6]

At £1.6bn they are not rowing boats.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[archie]

But are they complex ships? 😉No - as explained why here: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/would-uk-naval-shipbuilding-continue-in-scotland-if-it-left-the-uk/ !

[Jack]

No - as explained why here: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/would-uk-naval-shipbuilding-continue-in-scotland-if-it-left-the-uk/ !

It seems there's plenty opportunities to build non complex ships then!

[archie]

It seems there's plenty opportunities to build non complex ships then!Opportunities to bid for the work anyway.

[grunt]

Opportunities to bid for the work anyway.Bid? Looks like contract awarded...


A senior Labour MP accused Defence Secretary Ben Wallace of “stabbing” UK industry “in the back” after he confirmed the deal to build three Fleet Solid Support ships would be given to the Team Resolute consortium, spearheaded by Madrid-based Navantia.

[Stairway 2 7]

Surprised no thread. All Edinburgh schools closed on Thursday due to strikes, term time school nurseries too.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/education/edinburgh-teachers-strike-all-city-schools-will-close-next-thursday-due-to-one-day-stoppage-3921286

[Santa Cruz]

Surprised no thread. All Edinburgh schools closed on Thursday due to strikes, term time school nurseries too.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/education/edinburgh-teachers-strike-all-city-schools-will-close-next-thursday-due-to-one-day-stoppage-3921286

Think it's national. Mind reading Glasgow planning 12 days over Nov/Dec. Not just a pay issue for them, something else which for the life of me I now can't remember.

[He's here!]

Surprised no thread. All Edinburgh schools closed on Thursday due to strikes, term time school nurseries too.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/education/edinburgh-teachers-strike-all-city-schools-will-close-next-thursday-due-to-one-day-stoppage-3921286

My kids who are still at school are delighted!

Two further strikes announced for next year:

Two more Scottish school strike days announced - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63669886)

[SteveHFC]

See the SNP want to restrict alcohol advertising.

https://consult.gov.scot/alcohol-policy/alcohol-advertising-and-promotion/?fbclid=IwAR3U6vBpwMEMmlLiAmxBl2pFxIYMdL3q61cz1sKe _2dtY2Yk98F9FksVA0c

[ronaldo7]

See the SNP want to restrict alcohol advertising.

https://consult.gov.scot/alcohol-policy/alcohol-advertising-and-promotion/?fbclid=IwAR3U6vBpwMEMmlLiAmxBl2pFxIYMdL3q61cz1sKe _2dtY2Yk98F9FksVA0c

Recommended by the WHO, and implemented by other European nations.

What's not to like?

[grunt]

An alcohol ad ban in Scottish sport could have 'grave' financial consequences for football and cost the country any chance of hosting future major events, the SFA and SPFL have warned.

[CropleyWasGod]

An alcohol ad ban in Scottish sport could have 'grave' financial consequences for football and cost the country any chance of hosting future major events, the SFA and SPFL have warned.

Not sure I'd want to use the SFA and SPFL as my moral compass. :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Not sure I'd want to use the SFA and SPFL as my moral compass. :greengrinAnd FIFA seem OK with it at the World Cup!


Edit not UEFA!

[Moulin Yarns]

An alcohol ad ban in Scottish sport could have 'grave' financial consequences for football and cost the country any chance of hosting future major events, the SFA and SPFL have warned.

Remember when tobacco sponsored most sports? Hasn't been a disaster when it was banned.

[grunt]

Remember when tobacco sponsored most sports? Hasn't been a disaster when it was banned.I'm all for it. I was just passing on the comments of the SFA and SPFL. Never knowingly in the right. (Them, not me. I'm always right. :wink:)

[degenerated]

An alcohol ad ban in Scottish sport could have 'grave' financial consequences for football and cost the country any chance of hosting future major events, the SFA and SPFL have warned.There's a major event just about to start in a country where you can get 6 months in the pokey for drinking in public so I'm not sure the hosting major events concern really works.

[archie]

And FIFA seem OK with it at the World Cup!


Edit not UEFA!Are you serious. They are risking sponsorship of £75m per year!

[Just Alf]

Are you serious. They are risking sponsorship of £75m per year!Fifa allowing it to happen at the WC which is really my point.

There always seems to be some wriggle room

[archie]

Fifa allowing it to happen at the WC which is really my point.

There always seems to be some wriggle room

Given the toing and froing this week on it I doubt if FIFA have had much control of the situation.

[Just Alf]

Given the toing and froing this week on it I doubt if FIFA have had much control of the situation.That's my point ...

[archie]

That's my point ...

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/18/multiple-world-cup-sponsors-concerned-over-contracts-after-qatars-alcohol-ban

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Not sure I'd want to use the SFA and SPFL as my moral compass. :greengrin

Neither would I. Particularly as they (Qataris) have just announced no bevvy in the stadiums. 😀

Probably Petries fault.

[He's here!]

Bid to oust Blackford 'quashed':

SNP leadership coup to oust Ian Blackford from Westminster role in Commons quashed | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-leadership-coup-to-oust-ian-blackford-from-westminster-role-in-commons-quashed)

[Hibbyradge]

What's this about him supporting a sexually harrasser?

[He's here!]

What's this about him supporting a sexually harrasser?

Ian Blackford apology dismissed as 'cop out' by Patrick Grady victim - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61909112)

[ronaldo7]

Bid to oust Blackford 'quashed':

SNP leadership coup to oust Ian Blackford from Westminster role in Commons quashed | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-leadership-coup-to-oust-ian-blackford-from-westminster-role-in-commons-quashed)

The guy in the article supposedly leading the coup, said he wasn't interested. I suppose it plays to the narrative the unionists are trying to portray.

[He's here!]

Yousaf insists NHS in Scotland will remain publicly-owned as health chiefs discuss abandoning free treatment for all:

NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754)

[Since90+2]

Yousaf insists NHS in Scotland will remain publicly-owned as health chiefs discuss abandoning free treatment for all:

NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754)

Good to see the SNP commit to that.

[degenerated]

Yousaf insists NHS in Scotland will remain publicly-owned as health chiefs discuss abandoning free treatment for all:

NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754)Sounds like the establishment have got wind of supreme court ruling.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yousaf insists NHS in Scotland will remain publicly-owned as health chiefs discuss abandoning free treatment for all:

NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754)

I wonder what the cut-off point is to be wealthy?

[Stairway 2 7]

I wonder what the cut-off point is to be wealthy?

In England it's whether you receive a benefit, including pension. 90% of prescriptions in England were free last year

[Hibby Bairn]

I wonder what the cut-off point is to be wealthy?

About £43,000 income per year going by income tax rate bands 🙃

[Jones28]

In England it's whether you receive a benefit, including pension. 90% of prescriptions in England were free last year

Seriously? Not at all means tested?

[Ozyhibby]

Seriously? Not at all means tested?

Pensioners vote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack]

I suspect this will have been one of those nothing off the table discussions where worst case scenarios have been on the agenda. Having been involved in a number of these during my working days if you think this is bad you would **** yourselves at some of the other suggestions 😆

The SNP have been committed to the original ethos of the NHS from the day they came into power.

[Stairway 2 7]

Seriously? Not at all means tested?

Over 60s free I think

[archie]

Sounds like the establishment have got wind of supreme court ruling.I'm not understanding your point?

[degenerated]

In England it's whether you receive a benefit, including pension. 90% of prescriptions in England were free last yearI'm fairly sure that it costs more in managing the process to identify those that should pay and is the reason the SNP went for the universally free option.

[Jones28]

Over 60s free I think

Absolutely bonkers.

[Jack]

I'm fairly sure that it costs more in managing the process to identify those that should pay and is the reason the SNP went for the universally free option.

There were many reasons but aye, that was pretty high up.

[greenginger]

Hi
I wonder what the cut-off point is to be wealthy?

I would think nearly all genuinely wealthy people will have private health plans to cover majority of health problems.

No use if your in a car crash or fall off a cliff mind you.

[Ozyhibby]

I suspect this will have been one of those nothing off the table discussions where worst case scenarios have been on the agenda. Having been involved in a number of these during my working days if you think this is bad you would **** yourselves at some of the other suggestions [emoji38]

The SNP have been committed to the original ethos of the NHS from the day they came into power.

https://youtu.be/owI7DOeO_yg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Sturgeon rules out NHS privatisation (while, as ever, claiming to know nothing about the discussions):

Sturgeon dismisses 'two tier' NHS Scotland making wealthy pay for care (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/sturgeon-dismisses-two-tier-nhs-scotland-making-wealthy-pay-for-care/ar-AA14mBGi?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d52ef4838a5b430eb2c56a8aa5a2616e)

[McSwanky]

Sturgeon rules out NHS privatisation (while, as ever, claiming to know nothing about the discussions):

Sturgeon dismisses 'two tier' NHS Scotland making wealthy pay for care (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/sturgeon-dismisses-two-tier-nhs-scotland-making-wealthy-pay-for-care/ar-AA14mBGi?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d52ef4838a5b430eb2c56a8aa5a2616e)

I don't get it. A private NHS Managers' meeting, where they were 'workshopping' ideas (you know, no wrong answers and all that) has been leaked to the BBC, and it's somehow Nicola Sturgeon's fault that the idea was brought up at all? Have I got this right?

[marinello59]

I don't get it. A private NHS Managers' meeting, where they were 'workshopping' ideas (you know, no wrong answers and all that) has been leaked to the BBC, and it's somehow Nicola Sturgeon's fault that the idea was brought up at all? Have I got this right?

The press story has made it clear that it was an NHS managers meeting.
Has anybody here blamed Sturgeon?

[McSwanky]

The press story has made it clear that it was an NHS managers meeting.
Has anybody here blamed Sturgeon?

Maybe I've misunderstood the remark a couple of posts above:


Sturgeon rules out NHS privatisation (while, as ever, claiming to know nothing about the discussions)

Also...

https://twitter.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1594616674921086981

Also...

https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1594596252766900225

[ronaldo7]

Maybe I've misunderstood the remark a couple of posts above:



Also...

https://twitter.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1594616674921086981

Also...

https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1594596252766900225


It's like they've done it before. Oh wait.

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1594627568925347843

Just to add to the Tories tweets. Labour are in on the act too.

https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1594659242862346240

The story was debunked prior to a phone in by Kaye Adams, but they ran it for an hour this morning anyway.

I wonder if we'll get the full hand with reporting shortbread this evening.

[marinello59]

Maybe I've misunderstood the remark a couple of posts above:



Also...

https://twitter.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1594616674921086981

Also...

https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1594596252766900225


The post from here doesn’t actually blame Sturgeon. Though He’s Here clearly isn’t a fan. :greengrin

I don’t do Twitter for politics, I really wish politicians didn’t either.

[grunt]

The post from here doesn’t actually blame Sturgeon. Though He’s Here clearly isn’t a fan. :greengrinHe's implying she's lying about knowing about the story.

[Jack]

https://youtu.be/owI7DOeO_yg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It reminds me of when I was a 'leader' in one of those type discussions. Unlike some blabber mouth I'll not go into the detail (it would obviously be too scary for some 🤣 ) but the theoretical project was to be called Health Is Better'n Scotland or HIBS for short! I doubt Nicola Sturgeon, Cabinet Secretary for health and other stuff at the time, knew anything about it 🤔

[marinello59]

He's implying she's lying about knowing about the story.

He’sHere can answer for himself Im sure but he’s not actually saying Sturgeon plans to privatise the NHS. I’ll leave him to clarify that further though, I wish I hadn’t got involved. :greengrin

[McSwanky]

The post from here doesn’t actually blame Sturgeon. Though He’s Here clearly isn’t a fan. :greengrin

I don’t do Twitter for politics, I really wish politicians didn’t either.

You're right of course, it doesn't blame Sturgeon. :wink:

I shall say no more on the matter.

[grunt]

He’sHere can answer for himself Im sure but he’s not actually saying Sturgeon plans to privatise the NHS. I’ll leave him to clarify that further though, I wish I hadn’t got involved. :greengrin
I blame you. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

It's made it to London. Job done.

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1594659313938743298

[marinello59]

I blame you. :wink:

:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Graham Campbell thrown out a meeting with drug campaigners favor. Not sure if what Anne Marie ward says is correct about him wanting a photo opportunity

https://mobile.twitter.com/RadioClydeNews/status/1594683721302822912

[He's here!]

He’sHere can answer for himself Im sure but he’s not actually saying Sturgeon plans to privatise the NHS. I’ll leave him to clarify that further though, I wish I hadn’t got involved. :greengrin

Indeed, that's not what I'm saying. I just find it unlikely that when she has confirmed that NHS 'reform is under way' that the FM would not be remotely aware such suggestions had been made. Privatisation (of sorts) would be a huge deal.

She has form for 'forgetting' (the meeting in which she was told of the Salmond scandal) or being 'unaware' (of any impropriety around the ferries fiasco).

[degenerated]

It's made it to London. Job done.

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1594659313938743298Indeed 26296

[degenerated]

The post from here doesn’t actually blame Sturgeon. Though He’s Here clearly isn’t a fan. :greengrin

I don’t do Twitter for politics, I really wish politicians didn’t either.I'd prefer if Andrew Bowie didn't do politics, not so fussed about him being on twitter though :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

It's like they've done it before. Oh wait.

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1594627568925347843

Just to add to the Tories tweets. Labour are in on the act too.

https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1594659242862346240

The story was debunked prior to a phone in by Kaye Adams, but they ran it for an hour this morning anyway.

I wonder if we'll get the full hand with reporting shortbread this evening.

BBC EXCLUSIVE - STURGEON HOLDS PRIVATISATION MEETING ON BROKEN DOWN FERRY - more at 6.30 ...

[Ozyhibby]

BBC EXCLUSIVE - STURGEON HOLDS PRIVATISATION MEETING ON BROKEN DOWN FERRY - more at 6.30 ...

It’s funny how they think that a govt that has so far nationalised a shipyard, as steel fabricators, an airport and Scotrail is now about to privatise the NHS. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

BBC EXCLUSIVE - STURGEON HOLDS PRIVATISATION MEETING ON BROKEN DOWN FERRY - more at 6.30 ...

Was she stranded in mid channel?

[ronaldo7]

Indeed, that's not what I'm saying. I just find it unlikely that when she has confirmed that NHS 'reform is under way' that the FM would not be remotely aware such suggestions had been made. Privatisation (of sorts) would be a huge deal.

She has form for 'forgetting' (the meeting in which she was told of the Salmond scandal) or being 'unaware' (of any impropriety around the ferries fiasco).

Nudge nudge, wink wink.

[degenerated]

It’s funny how they think that a govt that has so far nationalised a shipyard, as steel fabricators, an airport and Scotrail is now about to privatise the NHS. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey don't think that though. They want the electorate to think that and it's working, I've heard a few people talking about sturgeon privatising healthcare today.

[He's here!]

Nationwide teachers' strike to go ahead as Scottish government's pay offer dismissed as 'insulting':

Teachers' strike in Scotland to go ahead as new pay offer rejected - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63715723)

[Del Boy]

Nationwide teachers' strike to go ahead as Scottish government's pay offer dismissed as 'insulting':

Teachers' strike in Scotland to go ahead as new pay offer rejected - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63715723)

Fully back the teachers on this. New offer is an insult aimed at dividing teachers at different levels of the pay scale. The offer is so far below what the teachers want that I can see the strikes going on for months.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nationwide teachers' strike to go ahead as Scottish government's pay offer dismissed as 'insulting':

Teachers' strike in Scotland to go ahead as new pay offer rejected - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63715723)

No wonder its a piss take. Vast majority get 5 point something rise, months after rejecting 5%.

[Ozyhibby]

SG is going to have to cut some services altogether if they are to solve this. It’s going to be grim. Shame for the kids sitting exams this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

SG is going to have to cut some services altogether if they are to solve this. It’s going to be grim. Shame for the kids sitting exams this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How did they afford to pay public sector workers much much better 10 years ago. I can't see what they have prioritised over paying teachers and nurses. Kids had months off in recent years they will be fine and shouldn't be used as a weapon against striking, unless its to get scot gov to pay up

[Ozyhibby]

How did they afford to pay public sector workers much much better 10 years ago. I can't see what they have prioritised over paying teachers and nurses. Kids had months off in recent years they will be fine and shouldn't be used as a weapon against striking, unless its to get scot gov to pay up

Public sector pay has been squeezed since 2010 as a deliberate policy decision of the UK govt. I suspect teachers salaries are inline with teachers south of the border because our spending is tied to what they spend down south.
I agree that the teachers deserve more. I think just about every person in Scotland deserves to have their wages lifted in line with our European neighbours but it will only happen if we vote for change.
An average wage earner in UK is about 20% poorer than the equivalent in France. We shouldn’t accept that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Public sector pay has been squeezed since 2010 as a deliberate policy decision of the UK govt. I suspect teachers salaries are inline with teachers south of the border because our spending is tied to what they spend down south.
I agree that the teachers deserve more. I think just about every person in Scotland deserves to have their wages lifted in line with our European neighbours but it will only happen if we vote for change.
An average wage earner in UK is about 20% poorer than the equivalent in France. We shouldn’t accept that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what snp wants us to believe, blame England as we have no choice. Scotlands block grant even without covid payments has been flat in real terms the last 10 years. Around 50% of our budget is made up of income tax also now.

Our spending isn't tied it's sharply different in many places we have our own budget. We have chosen to follow England with public sector wages the last 10 years. We paid more with the same pot previously

[ehf]

How did they afford to pay public sector workers much much better 10 years ago. I can't see what they have prioritised over paying teachers and nurses.

Those gender fluidity studies don’t come cheap.

[He's here!]

That's what snp wants us to believe, blame England as we have no choice. Scotlands block grant even without covid payments has been flat in real terms the last 10 years. Around 50% of our budget is made up of income tax also now.

Our spending isn't tied it's sharply different in many places we have our own budget. We have chosen to follow England with public sector wages the last 10 years. We paid more with the same pot previously

Absolutely. The catch-all blame Westminster card doesn't cut it here. Even the SG aren't trying to play that one.

[James310]

Absolutely. The catch-all blame Westminster card doesn't cut it here. Even the SG aren't trying to play that one.

The SG are quick to take credit for the priorities it decides to spend money on but it's the default position to blame Westminster when things don't go their way.

Of course if you make long term spending commitments using short term Covid funding then you will come up short at some point.

"The Scottish Government’s funding per person is 30% higher than the English equivalent, a leading think tank says, with the difference almost entirely due to the Barnett formula.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) said the Scottish Government had chosen to use some of its temporary coronavirus funding to pay for permanent spending commitments."

Why would you use temporary funding to pay for long term spending commitments? The SG has to shoulder some of the blame for this as these were their decisions and nothing to do with Westminster.

[He's here!]

Those gender fluidity studies don’t come cheap.

Not to mention a £200 million overspend on unfinished ferries...

[weecounty hibby]

Not to mention a £200 million overspend on unfinished ferries...
Cheap jibe that is becoming the go to for unionists. So are all the issues in the UK as a result of the ajax tanks, HS2, Crossrail, aircraft carriers, Palace of Westminster refurb etc etc all being massively overspent and late. And by massively let's talk billions. Ajax will never be delivered, aircraft carriers don't work, HS2 is a shambles but aye, ferries. It is a poor project done for the right reasons but at least we will eventually have two ferries, which is two more that there will be Ajax tanks. I'm sure you'll claim whataboutery but actually your taxes and mine have been spent on all of those projects but I don't see you mention them anywhere. Westminster overspend ok, Holyrood overspend bad. Union over everything

[Stairway 2 7]

Cheap jibe that is becoming the go to for unionists. So are all the issues in the UK as a result of the ajax tanks, HS2, Crossrail, aircraft carriers, Palace of Westminster refurb etc etc all being massively overspent and late. And by massively let's talk billions. Ajax will never be delivered, aircraft carriers don't work, HS2 is a shambles but aye, ferries. It is a poor project done for the right reasons but at least we will eventually have two ferries, which is two more that there will be Ajax tanks. I'm sure you'll claim whataboutery but actually your taxes and mine have been spent on all of those projects but I don't see you mention them anywhere. Westminster overspend ok, Holyrood overspend bad. Union over everything

Tanks and ferries are one off bad decisions and a sidetrack to the real issues. Scot government block grant has been flat in real terms in last 10 years. In that time public service wages have been decimated. Its a choice that has been made by our neoliberal scot gov.

[Ozyhibby]

Tanks and ferries are one off bad decisions and a sidetrack to the real issues. Scot government block grant has been flat in real terms in last 10 years. In that time public service wages have been decimated. Its a choice that has been made by our neoliberal scot gov.

I heard on the radio that Scottish teachers receive on average £7k a year more than English teachers. If that’s true then it appears the SG have been trying to to improve the lot of our teachers.


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[Bostonhibby]

Cheap jibe that is becoming the go to for unionists. So are all the issues in the UK as a result of the ajax tanks, HS2, Crossrail, aircraft carriers, Palace of Westminster refurb etc etc all being massively overspent and late. And by massively let's talk billions. Ajax will never be delivered, aircraft carriers don't work, HS2 is a shambles but aye, ferries. It is a poor project done for the right reasons but at least we will eventually have two ferries, which is two more that there will be Ajax tanks. I'm sure you'll claim whataboutery but actually your taxes and mine have been spent on all of those projects but I don't see you mention them anywhere. Westminster overspend ok, Holyrood overspend bad. Union over everythingI'm no SNP supporter but wouldn't the best way to balance out this ferry business that seems to be critical to most debates around their competence just be to offset it against one (just one) of the many dubious contracts awarded to the in crowd masquerading as PPE contracts?

This one would just about balance it and that's without analysing the intent of each situation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/01/michelle-mone-hmrc-winding-up-petition-against-ppe-firm

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[Since90+2]

Cheap jibe that is becoming the go to for unionists. So are all the issues in the UK as a result of the ajax tanks, HS2, Crossrail, aircraft carriers, Palace of Westminster refurb etc etc all being massively overspent and late. And by massively let's talk billions. Ajax will never be delivered, aircraft carriers don't work, HS2 is a shambles but aye, ferries. It is a poor project done for the right reasons but at least we will eventually have two ferries, which is two more that there will be Ajax tanks. I'm sure you'll claim whataboutery but actually your taxes and mine have been spent on all of those projects but I don't see you mention them anywhere. Westminster overspend ok, Holyrood overspend bad. Union over everything

Well said.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tanks and ferries are one off bad decisions and a sidetrack to the real issues. Scot government block grant has been flat in real terms in last 10 years. In that time public service wages have been decimated. Its a choice that has been made by our neoliberal scot gov.

According to this - https://www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and-work-experience/job-sectors/teacher-training-and-education/how-much-do-teachers-get-paid - Scottish teachers are paid more than in rUK apart from in inner London.


Qualified teacher salary
The pay scales for qualified teachers are split into main and upper pay ranges - after entering at the NQT/probationary starting point, teachers are promoted up the scales in line with excellent performance. These ranges, from the main rate to the highest upper rate, differ between countries across the UK:

England (excluding London) and Wales - £28,000 to £38,810
London - £29,344 to £40,083 (fringes), £32,407 to £43,193 (outer), £34,502 to £44,756 (inner)
Scotland - £33,729 to £42,336
Northern Ireland - £24,137 to £41,094.

[Stairway 2 7]

I heard on the radio that Scottish teachers receive on average £7k a year more than English teachers. If that’s true then it appears the SG have been trying to to improve the lot of our teachers.


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The average is just over 1k, but some of that they pay in higher tax. Fact is its much lower than 10 years ago in real terms whilst the budget isn't.

[degenerated]

The average is just over 1k, but some of that they pay in higher tax. Fact is its much lower than 10 years ago in real terms whilst the budget isn't.Don't you want them to pay more income tax though?

[Berwickhibby]

Not to mention a £200 million overspend on unfinished ferries...

You have not to mention that :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't you want them to pay more income tax though?

I want them to pay alot more I want them paid in line with what we paid them 10 years ago

[Smartie]

I want them to pay alot more I want them paid in line with what we paid them 10 years ago

Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay it?

Saying we want them to be paid more is the easy bit. Digging deep, or telling someone else that they're not getting, is the hard bit.

[Stairway 2 7]

Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay it?

Saying we want the, to be paid for is the easy bit. Digging deep, or telling someone else that they're not getting, is the hard bit.

We have the same budget in real terms in the last ten years. In that time they have slashed public service workers wages. Personally I think wages should be near the top of the agenda. So the question should be to them as to what they have spent the money on. They obviously have the money for it as they did so previously

[Smartie]

We have the same budget in real terms in the last ten years. In that time they have slashed public service workers wages. Personally I think wages should be near the top of the agenda. So the question should be to them as to what they have spent the money on. They obviously have the money for it as they did so previously

I'm mainly being devil's advocate here tbh and I agree with you re wages.

I'm maybe just a bit more forgiving of those who have to make tough decisions.

Has there been investment in equipment and technology over the past 10 years? With our ageing population are we having to spend more on healthcare in general, not to mention triple locked pensions? What does that leave in the pot for wages? There are countless things that may have happened over the past decade meaning there isn't enough money, or room for manoeuvre.

Corbyn put forward a case for increasing taxes and increasing public spending but it was rejected at the ballot box. Ultimately the Tories are the ones who make the big decisions and I don't think you can continually elect them and wonder why nurses aren't being paid more, although I'm sure a "strong" case can be made for it having been spent on imaginary ferries or wokery or something.

[Ozyhibby]

We have the same budget in real terms in the last ten years. In that time they have slashed public service workers wages. Personally I think wages should be near the top of the agenda. So the question should be to them as to what they have spent the money on. They obviously have the money for it as they did so previously

The SNP decided that alleviating child poverty might also be worthy of their attention and lots of funds.
We have a budget that is set it London. There are only so many things we can do with it. It looks like we decided to reward our teachers better than those south of the border.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The SNP decided that alleviating child poverty might also be worthy of their attention and lots of funds.
We have a budget that is set it London. There are only so many things we can do with it. It looks like we decided to reward our teachers better than those south of the border.


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Reward them by dropping their wages by 9% in 12 years, but it's better than England remember that ha

Child poverty is up a few % since snp came to power even though their budget hasn't went down
https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2021/12/1/a53b6c2d-0d6a-445e-8bd3-413ee081f41b-1#f211340b-935e-4e08-ba23-9751e299ffe1.dita

[Ozyhibby]

Reward them by dropping their wages by 9% in 12 years, but it's better than England remember that ha

Child poverty is up a few % since snp came to power even though their budget hasn't went down
https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2021/12/1/a53b6c2d-0d6a-445e-8bd3-413ee081f41b-1#f211340b-935e-4e08-ba23-9751e299ffe1.dita

All the SNP can do is mitigate Westminster policies. If London cut benefits then of course child poverty will go up. The SNP introducing the Scottish child payment helps but is no solution to Westminster’s decisions.


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[Hibrandenburg]

All the SNP can do is mitigate Westminster policies. If London cut benefits then of course child poverty will go up. The SNP introducing the Scottish child payment helps but is no solution to Westminster’s decisions.


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It's like baking a cake with some ingredients missing, sure we get to choose which ingredients are missing but the cake is still going to be ****.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

First national teachers strike in Scotland since the 1980s now under way.

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

First national teachers strike in Scotland since the 1980s now under way.

So are people waking up this morning thinking how democracy is being denied or thinking I wish the government would sort this strike out as I am having to take a day off work or arrange emergency childcare.

I reckon it's the latter.

[Smartie]

So are people waking up this morning thinking how democracy is being denied or thinking I wish the government would sort this strike out as I am having to take a day off work or arrange emergency childcare.

I reckon it's the latter.

I reckon most folk will have space in their heads for more than one thought, and some might even actually link the two.

[Ozyhibby]

So are people waking up this morning thinking how democracy is being denied or thinking I wish the government would sort this strike out as I am having to take a day off work or arrange emergency childcare.

I reckon it's the latter.

I’m thinking we need to get out of this union so that we can move to the type of economy that values teachers a bit more instead of the wealthy as we do now.


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[CropleyWasGod]

So are people waking up this morning thinking how democracy is being denied or thinking I wish the government would sort this strike out as I am having to take a day off work or arrange emergency childcare.

I reckon it's the latter.

I'm thinking it's a lovely day for a walk.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm thinking I wish there was a left wing major party I could vote for. After Corbyn got the full force of the press spin, I guess my best chance is independence

[He's here!]

So are people waking up this morning thinking how democracy is being denied or thinking I wish the government would sort this strike out as I am having to take a day off work or arrange emergency childcare.

I reckon it's the latter.

I work in support for learning in schools so the schools I work in are closed today which means we didn't need to find childcare for my younger two (who are needless to say delighted with a day off!), but it's a major pain in the a**e for many working parents. I feel especially sorry for non-academic staff at the Edinburgh Council Schools managed by ESP/Amey (the ones which all had to close after the wall at Oxgangs collapsed) as they have to attend 'work' today despite the schools being empty. The catering staff at the school I've been working at this week were told they can clean the kitchen (which they do every day after school lunches anyway!). Either that or take a day's unpaid leave to meet their childcare needs, which some are having to do.

The obvious answer to your question for those not obsessed with independence is that the SG should get on with the day job. Sturgeon asked to be judged on her record in education but this mess is down to her government as teaching unions have made very clear.

[grunt]

The obvious answer to your question for those not obsessed with independence is that the SG should get on with the day job. How do you measure obsession? Do you think that someone with 165 posts in a thread on Scottish Independence is "obsessed with independence"?

[JeMeSouviens]

How do you measure obsession? Do you think that someone with 165 posts in a thread on Scottish Independence is "obsessed with independence"?

You hardly ever hear Tories talking about putative indyrefs, eh? :rolleyes:

[He's here!]

How do you measure obsession? Do you think that someone with 165 posts in a thread on Scottish Independence is "obsessed with independence"?

I'm referring to those obsessed with winning independence, seemingly above all else.

Personally I think the 2014 referendum and, in particular, its aftermath was one of the worst things ever to have happened to Scotland both politically and socially. Had I been able to foresee the divisive mess it would leave the country in I probably wouldn't have voted for devolution. I'm therefore passionate about remaining part of the UK but I wouldn't call it an obsession. Had the vote gone the other way in 2014 I would have sadly accepted it, not spent the next eight years whinging about having another go.

Put it this way, the news that Martin Boyle is out for the season depressed me more than seeing Nicola Sturgeon grandstanding in front of a bunch of saltire-appropriating devotees (after wasting time and money on Supreme Court crusade she knew was futile) when as FM she should have been focusing on how to prevent Scotland's first national teachers strike in 40 years. That I simply found tiresome.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

First national teachers strike in Scotland since the 1980s now under way.

One day strikes here and there are not going to have as much impact as bringing the teachers out for an undefined period. They have a day today and 2 days in January organised. That's a loss of 3 days earnings for teachers and potentially parents/carers. Better to announce a full week to begin with. They wouldn't take much more of a hit in terms of loss of income and imo that'll get them a quicker resolution from the SG. Economically no Gov wants unplanned school closures for a week, but could handle a day here and there.

I've been in a trade union all my working days, but am now off the opinion the country would be better served with one public sector union with branches representing each sector. No public sector worker should be viewed as more important than any other, yet we now look like approaching a situation where there are differing pay settlements being awarded depending on what sector people work in. We need them all, they all link in and would fail without each other.

[grunt]

The obvious answer to your question for those not obsessed with independence is that the SG should get on with the day job.


I'm referring to those obsessed with winning independence, seemingly above all else.
You'd be a bit weird if you were obsessed with NOT winning independence, wouldn't you?

[He's here!]

One day strikes here and there are not going to have as much impact as bringing the teachers out for an undefined period. They have a day today and 2 days in January organised. That's a loss of 3 days earnings for teachers and potentially parents/carers. Better to announce a full week to begin with. They wouldn't take much more of a hit in terms of loss of income and imo that'll get them a quicker resolution from the SG. Economically no Gov wants unplanned school closures for a week, but could handle a day here and there.

I've been in a trade union all my working days, but am now off the opinion the country would be better served with one public sector union with branches representing each sector. No public sector worker should be viewed as more important than any other, yet we now look like approaching a situation where there are differing pay settlements being awarded depending on what sector people work in. We need them all, they all link in and would fail without each other.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63734668

Further strikes in December haven't been ruled out. A couple of my colleagues weren't planning to demonstrate today as they have kids at home but said Tuesday's meagre pay offer actually spurred them into simply taking the kids with them to the (very colourful - see link) rally outside Holyrood. It's going to take a hefty increase in the offer to stop strikes escalating.

[wookie70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63734668

Further strikes in December haven't been ruled out. A couple of my colleagues weren't planning to demonstrate today as they have kids at home but said Tuesday's meagre pay offer actually spurred them into simply taking the kids with them to the (very colourful - see link) rally outside Holyrood. It's going to take a hefty increase in the offer to stop strikes escalating.

My kids attended picket lines and loved it. I suppose it was my version of taking them to church. I got two lovely letters from our Branch Committee which are tucked away in their memory box and are right at the top of what I treasure in those boxes. You can keep your first tooth or image of your first step. First picket line trumps those.

I think the STUC are planning a pre budget day rally outside Holyrood which should be well attended by all Unions

[wookie70]

One day strikes here and there are not going to have as much impact as bringing the teachers out for an undefined period. They have a day today and 2 days in January organised. That's a loss of 3 days earnings for teachers and potentially parents/carers. Better to announce a full week to begin with. They wouldn't take much more of a hit in terms of loss of income and imo that'll get them a quicker resolution from the SG. Economically no Gov wants unplanned school closures for a week, but could handle a day here and there.

I've been in a trade union all my working days, but am now off the opinion the country would be better served with one public sector union with branches representing each sector. No public sector worker should be viewed as more important than any other, yet we now look like approaching a situation where there are differing pay settlements being awarded depending on what sector people work in. We need them all, they all link in and would fail without each other.

I totally agree with that. One day strikes achieve nothing save giving a sense of togetherness and perhaps a launch of a campaign. Teachers would be far better splitting a one day strike over a week. Walk out for an hour and a half each day or similar. My Union, PCS, are going for targeted and sustained so strikers can be paid, initially, from a strike fund and then a levy from those not striking. Those areas out will be the most damaging to the Government for the money used to pay strikers. It is a tactic I have advocated for over a decade and I am glad we have went that route but there are still some that seem to think a one day strike will make a difference.

Personally I would get every Union member in the TUC to start moving money and services to designated providers. Cause absolute chaos in the financial market and then a month later get them to all change to another provider. Make sure the big energy companies ad banks know what is coming so they lobby government effectively on workers behalf. Unions have to be much more open to the use of online ways of changing minds and I would be looking at spending $8 and screwing with any big business you could with a tweet dressed up as from a big company and then an instruction to Union members worldwide to retweet. Chaos and disruption can be incredibly cheap these days and easier to organise than strikes under the horrendous ant worker Trade Union laws

I have always thought public servants who are employed not elected should all be viewed the same in terms of pay. A rate for the job should be agreed and then changed with inflation. If the Government isn't a decent employer then why should anyone else be. As it turns out the recent Tory Governments have been some of the worst employers in the market place, stealing pensions, quite literally stealing pension payments, slashing compensation payments, closing offices, employing massive amounts of agency staff and paying 4 or 5 % this year less than private sector employer in Pay awards. That isn't even to mention a number of unlawful acts that the courts and Unions have made them reverse on and some of which they simply changed the law to bring in.

[He's here!]

Teachers in Scotland to strike for 16 consecutive days in January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63759720

Surely Sturgeon will have to start turning her attention to the day job??

[Ozyhibby]

Teachers in Scotland to strike for 16 consecutive days in January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63759720

Surely Sturgeon will have to start turning her attention to the day job??

Even part time she manages to run the best services in the UK.[emoji6]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Teachers in Scotland to strike for 16 consecutive days in January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63759720

Surely Sturgeon will have to start turning her attention to the day job??


Not an all out strike over all of Scotland for 16 days at the same time!


Very misleading.

[J-C]

Teachers in Scotland to strike for 16 consecutive days in January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63759720

Surely Sturgeon will have to start turning her attention to the day job??

And do you actually believe everything in government gets laid to one side while they discuss independence, how very naive of you.

[Keith_M]

Teachers in Scotland to strike for 16 consecutive days in January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63759720

Surely Sturgeon will have to start turning her attention to the day job??


Amazing. When she's not revealing her plans for a referendum, she's widely referred to as a fraud, when she does, she gets the 'concentrate on the day job' cliché.

Seriously, you need to make up your mind what you actually want.

[marinello59]

Even part time she manages to run the best services in the UK.[emoji6]


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Or the least worst. :greengrin