SNP are lying b******s as well !

[He's here!]

All someone else's fault. Is that not the same old tune we have been hearing for the last ten years?

The Yes movement need to up their game. Big stage-managed arguments about Globe bottles won't achieve that.

Hard to imagine publishing plans for a written Scottish constitution in the event of independence (the kind of tick box exercise which slides rapidly down the news agenda) will set the pulses racing ahead of this weekend's gathering of the faithful, especially when no meaningful strategy for achieving independence appears to exist.

[147lothian]

Isn't it more absurd that the Noers haven't managed to move the dial by getting the Yessers on board by actually granting the Noers that what they vowed to do?

Your sounding quite bitter, did you invest in Nicola Surgeon and Peter Murrell's indyref2 fund?

[Ozyhibby]

All someone else's fault. Is that not the same old tune we have been hearing for the last ten years?

The Yes movement need to up their game. Big stage-managed arguments about Globe bottles won't achieve that.

I’m sure you have blamed Ed Milliband’s non election on the hostile Tory media in the past?


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[Since90+2]

I’m sure you have blamed Ed Milliband’s non election on the hostile Tory media in the past?


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😂

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m sure you have blamed Ed Milliband’s non election on the hostile Tory media in the past?


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You are wrong then because I never..

I have however posted frequently that in his time he was the only leader who was brave enough to stand up to News International and the Daily Mail and they didn't like it one little bit.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/petermacmahon/status/1671899167789142017?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Big changes coming in education?


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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/petermacmahon/status/1671899167789142017?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Big changes coming in education?


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Won't that depend on whether Viceroy Jack allows it or not?

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/petermacmahon/status/1671899167789142017?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Big changes coming in education?


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Everyone is a winner but actually a looser education. I'd be stunned if this improves overall education. My wife was in some of these early stages and many in the education sector are just shaking their heads. My wife's main gripe is this will definitely benefit better off children, but is also rushed and poor quality. Snp have done great work in helping the worse off kids like widening grades for certain groups (before the attack dogs strike)

[Ozyhibby]

Everyone is a winner but actually a looser education. I'd be stunned if this improves overall education. My wife was in some of these early stages and many in the education sector are just shaking their heads. My wife's main gripe is this will definitely benefit better off children, but is also rushed and poor quality. Snp have done great work in helping the worse off kids like widening grades for certain groups (before the attack dogs strike)

Not sure about it myself. I like exams. We saw during covid, school assessment just means everyone gets an A. And if everyone gets an A, nobody gets an A.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Your sounding quite bitter, did you invest in Nicola Surgeon and Peter Murrell's indyref2 fund?

If that's intended to get a bite, then you're going to have to up your game.

[Kato]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20011732.snp-urged-sack-candidate-shouted-abuse-pope/

Don't mention the papal visit in the 80s!Is there not a question of degree on this archie? Sorry to bring it up days later but you do claim you like apply logic. Seems absent when it suits you.

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[archie]

Is there not a question of degree on this archie? Sorry to bring it up days later but you do claim you like apply logic. Seems absent when it suits you.

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Well when the president of the SNP calls for pickets of The Pope's visit in the 80s and refers to Scotland as a protestant country I think that’s material. Now it caused ructions in the SNP, but Salmond brought him back into the fold. Why do I raise it? Because the relentless drumbeat about how bad Labour are includes all sorts of lurid assertions that imply Sarwar is tight with the Orange Order. That's hyperbolic nonsense. If a Labour candidate called the Pope the C word and then was passed as a candidate this place would explode. There are examples from all parties, including the SNP, of people with links to the OO.

Personally I think the OO has no place in a forward looking Scotland, but the narrative that it's a Labour only issue is just smeary nonsense.

[grunt]

Personally I think the OO has no place in a forward looking Scotland, but the narrative that it's a Labour only issue is just smeary nonsense.
Bit ironic you talking about "forward looking".

[archie]

Bit ironic you talking about "forward looking".

Why?

[WeeRussell]

Why?

Maybe he thinks you’re usually looking the same was as your archie 🤷🏻*♂️

[archie]

Maybe he thinks you’re usually looking the same was as your archie 🤷🏻*♂️

Maybe - good play on the name BTW.

Or maybe a neat bit of DARVO.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/markrobinson_oz/status/1673583764394606592?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Looks like minimum unit pricing has been a big success and has saved lives. Shame it was opposed by Labour and the Tories for so long. More lives could have been saved.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/markrobinson_oz/status/1673583764394606592?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Looks like minimum unit pricing has been a big success and has saved lives. Shame it was opposed by Labour and the Tories for so long. More lives could have been saved.


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Deaths went up. They commissioned 4 studies, 3 showed no statistical difference and one said it helped a 13% reduction. If you read closer there was a rise in deaths but they say it was 13% less than England's rise so are running with that. They don't say if you look at us just against England over 10 years some times there is rises sometimes falls with no mitigations.

It's junk science. I'm all for sin taxes so not fussy, but this is brutal from a body looking for a conclusion not finding it then scrambling, as the 6 years was up.

I don't like snowdens politics but he's a good economist a decent thread on the subject
https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1673599530929881089


Why do they just compare us to England. Both deaths rose to 11 year highs but Scotland's slower. Northern Ireland don't have minimum pricing and their deaths dropped, compare against that and your argument is gone

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1673692045242769409?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

More Scottish legislation stopped.[emoji35]


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1673692045242769409?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

More Scottish legislation stopped.[emoji35]


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I just looked at that and read down.

The Supreme Court found the Scottish Government was drafting legislation to deliberately exceed the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

So these so-called conflicts with Westminster are actually being stage-managed by the SNP to fire up the beel, to stoke the grievance.

On our time and money. While a quarter of Scotland’s children live in poverty and 627,000 of us are on a NHS waiting list.

Shame on them. That’s no way to govern.

[He's here!]

I just looked at that and read down.

The Supreme Court found the Scottish Government was drafting legislation to deliberately exceed the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

So these so-called conflicts with Westminster are actually being stage-managed by the SNP to fire up the beel, to stoke the grievance.

On our time and money. While a quarter of Scotland’s children live in poverty and 627,000 of us are on a NHS waiting list.

Shame on them. That’s no way to govern.

You just need to read the name Shirley-Anne Somerville in there to know it's not something to take seriously.

[danhibees1875]

This isn't the right thread, but it's as close as I can see to a generic "political activities in scotland" option...

Is anyone aware of Scottish government matching the UK government childcare support extension that was included in the recent UK budget. I think childcare support is a devolved issue so the changes only apply to England (& Wales?) but don't recall seeing anything, and can't find anything, suggesting that Scotland would or wouldn't follow with the extensions to cover all(ish) children by 2025.

The staggered changes start to take affect from April 2024.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230629/bba2d8ee6b3635fc1a962c42289b7b92.jpg
Wasn’t there a narrative being pushed on here a few weeks ago that Scottish Water was just as bad as the situation down south?


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[degenerated]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230629/bba2d8ee6b3635fc1a962c42289b7b92.jpg
Wasn’t there a narrative being pushed on here a few weeks ago that Scottish Water was just as bad as the situation down south?


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is comparing water not like comparing apples with pears, or something

[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230629/bba2d8ee6b3635fc1a962c42289b7b92.jpg
Wasn’t there a narrative being pushed on here a few weeks ago that Scottish Water was just as bad as the situation down south?


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I hate cherry-picked multigraphs. especially ones that cite a source as “Statutory Reports”. But that’s an aesthetic matter.

This sounds like a resounding acknowledgement of devolution working well for the people it serves:

Nice to see the Blair legacy making our eco culture better, 16 years on!

And credit to you and the other poster for highlighting it rather than playing the usual partisan petty politics we see.

[greenginger]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230629/bba2d8ee6b3635fc1a962c42289b7b92.jpg
Wasn’t there a narrative being pushed on here a few weeks ago that Scottish Water was just as bad as the situation down south?


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I don’t know much about Scottish water pollution performance but for the simple job of providing a water supply they are a joke.
A couple of years ago my daughter was getting her house extended and extra bathrooms were being installed and the half inch water supply had to be increased.

I contacted the water board at Buckstone , two guys came out , took a look and said I should contact Scottish Water at Cumbernauld. A van with 4 guys appeared a few days later and I was told the job was a different dept and the next week more workman appeared , took a deep breath and said I would be better if I employed a private contractor for the work.

That’s what I did. It took three days and it was complete, Road re- tarred and everything.

I’m must have spoken and met a dozen water board employees and they all said it was someone else’s department.

[Ozyhibby]

I hate cherry-picked multigraphs. especially ones that cite a source as “Statutory Reports”. But that’s an aesthetic matter.

This sounds like a resounding acknowledgement of devolution working well for the people it serves:

Nice to see the Blair legacy making our eco culture better, 16 years on!

And credit to you and the other poster for highlighting it rather than playing the usual partisan petty politics we see.

I’m all in favour of more devolution. Unfortunately Labour have now gone cold on the idea.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I’m all in favour of more devolution. Unfortunately Labour have now gone cold on the idea.


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Have they?

[Ozyhibby]

Have they?

I willing to listen to any proposals from them I may have missed?
Also an SNP failure.

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[Mibbes Aye]

I willing to listen to any proposals from them I may have missed?
Also an SNP failure.

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I thought you broadly liked Gordon Brown’s proposals, just concerned about them actually being implemented. Apologies if I got that wrong.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought you broadly liked Gordon Brown’s proposals, just concerned about them actually being implemented. Apologies if I got that wrong.

I like the idea of getting rid of the Lords but that was really it for his proposals?
There is no significant extra devolution? No change the the funding models that we have just now? No extra powers over taxation?
Getting rid of the Lords is great although it’s gone very quiet on that front now. The rest of it was really a lot of nothing?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Snp uturn on marine protected areas thankfully. Another green party shambles falls apart. As many have pointed out Humza said to Kate forbes in the debates, this was a red line that would make the greens walk if they scrapped it. They won't as they like not being a minority party out of power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66053133

[Moulin Yarns]

Snp uturn on marine protected areas thankfully. Another green party shambles falls apart. As many have pointed out Humza said to Kate forbes in the debates, this was a red line that would make the greens walk if they scrapped it. They won't as they like not being a minority party out of power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66053133

I'd like to know what was wrong with allowing fishing operations in 90% of our coastal waters?

[Ozyhibby]

Snp uturn on marine protected areas thankfully. Another green party shambles falls apart. As many have pointed out Humza said to Kate forbes in the debates, this was a red line that would make the greens walk if they scrapped it. They won't as they like not being a minority party out of power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66053133

Humza learning on the job. The numbers were just not there. I suspect this comes from getting the party together at the weekend and actually talking to each other. Good to see.
Will keep Labour company in the u-turn club.[emoji106][emoji23]


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[Berwickhibby]

Nicola Sturgeon couldn't help herself while giving evidence at the Covid Inquiry.

She started to blame things on the UKs exit from the EU.

Hugo Keith KC, the lead Counsel to the inquiry reminded her she was in a witness box not a soap box and told her to stay clear of political debate about Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

Nicola Sturgeon couldn't help herself while giving evidence at the Covid Inquiry.

She started to blame things on the UKs exit from the EU.

Hugo Keith KC, the lead Counsel to the inquiry reminded her she was in a witness box not a soap box and told her to stay clear of political debate about Brexit.

She wouldn’t be the first this week to do that, would she? Could it be that she was right?


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[Stairway 2 7]

I'd like to know what was wrong with allowing fishing operations in 90% of our coastal waters?

Destroying communities in the 10%. Thankfully the adults in the SNP have rules this policy badly thought through

[Moulin Yarns]

Destroying communities in the 10%. Thankfully the adults in the SNP have rules this policy badly thought through

Where is your proof that protection of 10% of the seafloor around our coast will destroy communities?

[Ozyhibby]

Where is your proof that protection of 10% of the seafloor around our coast will destroy communities?

I’ve no opinion on the merits of the policy. I live in the city and would not know one end of a boat from the other. The numbers for this were just not there though. There were more SNP MSP’s against than greens. The numbers didn’t stack up. And that’s down to the argument not being won. It would be madness to take this forward, split the party and then fail anyway.


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[Berwickhibby]

She wouldn’t be the first this week to do that, would she? Could it be that she was right?


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Hopefully she explains why nothing was done after Covid 19 was found at the Nike conference in Edinburgh on February 2020. Or has she forgotten this also.

[Stairway 2 7]

Where is your proof that protection of 10% of the seafloor around our coast will destroy communities?

Because I'm not half daft some communities in the effect areas main source of income was from they waters. I'm not going to say its fine we should go ahead with it when hundreds of fishermen were saying what do we do when we have no jobs.

I think Humza new Forbes was correct when she demolished the policy, he was trapped by the greens and wanting a majority. I hope SNP get a majority next Holyrood election so they can lose the greens, if not its going to cost them power

[Since90+2]

Hopefully she explains why nothing was done after Covid 19 was found at the Nike conference in Edinburgh on February 2020. Or has she forgotten this also.

What do you think should have been done? Was this not before Westminster announced lockdowns/ furlough ect?

[Berwickhibby]

What do you think should have been done? Was this not before Westminster announced lockdowns/ furlough ect?

It was before lockdown/furlough etc however a deep clean and hushed up was not the right thing to do imho, the public should have been told.

[Since90+2]

It was before lockdown/furlough etc however a deep clean and hushed up was not the right thing to do imho, the public should have been told.

So just making it public?

[Berwickhibby]

So just making it public?

Would have been a start …there were so many poor decisions made at the start of the pandemic..majority fall at Bozo’s door but some things like cancelling Cheltenham and the Huns game would have been a start. Plus the length of time to actually start the lockdown and furlough cost lives.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because I'm not half daft some communities in the effect areas main source of income was from they waters. I'm not going to say its fine we should go ahead with it when hundreds of fishermen were saying what do we do when we have no jobs.

I think Humza new Forbes was correct when she demolished the policy, he was trapped by the greens and wanting a majority. I hope SNP get a majority next Holyrood election so they can lose the greens, if not its going to cost them power

Do you know what areas were included in the highly protected marine areas?

[He's here!]

Nicola Sturgeon couldn't help herself while giving evidence at the Covid Inquiry.

She started to blame things on the UKs exit from the EU.

Hugo Keith KC, the lead Counsel to the inquiry reminded her she was in a witness box not a soap box and told her to stay clear of political debate about Brexit.

I read that earlier. Good to see him nip her gas at a peep. It's been refreshing to be spared her manufactured grievance politics for the last few months.

[He's here!]

Snp uturn on marine protected areas thankfully. Another green party shambles falls apart. As many have pointed out Humza said to Kate forbes in the debates, this was a red line that would make the greens walk if they scrapped it. They won't as they like not being a minority party out of power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66053133

Maybe Yousaf has finally wised up to the toxicity of their presence in government. Sturgeon really threw him under a bus with the legacy she bequeathed him. As you say, though, they won't actually walk. They enjoy their jumped-up self-importance too much. Personally I hope they stay on :wink:

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you know what areas were included in the highly protected marine areas?

You can get it online if your so inclined. It covered 10% of our waters with little nuance. Some islands with fishing communities were fully surrounded by hpma areas they had fished for hundreds of years. They said it would destroy their career's and villages. Greens in wine bars in Edinburgh weren't bothered.

Fact is democracy took over. It was clear there wouldn't be a majority on this. SNP weren't going to whip and lose MPs. Humza said this would be a Green red line but I'm sure we'll find out they will do nothing

[Moulin Yarns]

You can get it online if your so inclined. It covered 10% of our waters with little nuance. Some islands with fishing communities were fully surrounded by hpma areas they had fished for hundreds of years. They said it would destroy their career's and villages. Greens in wine bars in Edinburgh weren't bothered.

Fact is democracy took over. It was clear there wouldn't be a majority on this. SNP weren't going to whip and lose MPs. Humza said this would be a Green red line but I'm sure we'll find out they will do nothing


OK, I get that you don't actually know what areas were to be offered greater protection, mainly because you won't find them online as you suggested because they haven't been decided yet!! 😂

[He's here!]

Snp uturn on marine protected areas thankfully. Another green party shambles falls apart. As many have pointed out Humza said to Kate forbes in the debates, this was a red line that would make the greens walk if they scrapped it. They won't as they like not being a minority party out of power

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66053133


And still on the subject of Green debacles:

Bottle return scheme problems reported months before UK rejection - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66050610)

[Ozyhibby]

And still on the subject of Green debacles:

Bottle return scheme problems reported months before UK rejection - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66050610)

Hypothetical problems as we never got to implementation.


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[Stairway 2 7]

OK, I get that you don't actually know what areas were to be offered greater protection, mainly because you won't find them online as you suggested because they haven't been decided yet!! 😂

They say they haven't been decided but the fishermen's unions say they have been told they will fully overlap with current MPAs and they believe its a stitch up. They know which section of the hebridies and Lewis's waters will be designated. Who knows if that's true though

The fact is you have been arguing for Scottish Parliaments choices to be respected for weeks on other subjects. The Parliament doesn't want this, I'm would split the snp further to please a few nut jobs

[Stairway 2 7]

Hypothetical problems as we never got to implementation.


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It makes a mockery of Slater saying it will definitely go ahead on time, hours before humza delayed it. Surely she read the report saying it should be delayed

[Moulin Yarns]

The fact is you have been arguing for Scottish Parliaments choices to be respected for weeks on other subjects.

I think you must have me mixed up with someone else. I've not posted a lot recently, the arguments about 'one nation' really put me off.

[Mibbes Aye]

Hypothetical problems as we never got to implementation.


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Are you saying the report is wrong?

I’m also tickled at how this is hypothetical but when it comes to policies that Labour hasn’t committed to, all it takes is one unattributed source in the press and you are questioning Keir Starmer’s integrity 😀

That’s the problem with double standards, you paint yourself into a corner eventually.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nicola Sturgeon couldn't help herself while giving evidence at the Covid Inquiry.

She started to blame things on the UKs exit from the EU.

Hugo Keith KC, the lead Counsel to the inquiry reminded her she was in a witness box not a soap box and told her to stay clear of political debate about Brexit.

The UK's exit from the EU certainly didn't help the situation. Sounds like Keith is the one getting political by inferring it's not related.

[Berwickhibby]

The UK's exit from the EU certainly didn't help the situation. Sounds like Keith is the one getting political by inferring it's not related.

God forbid that someone is pulling Sturgeon … surprised you have not suggested she gets a sainthood.

The enquiry is about getting to what actually occurred and the lack of preparation by Westminster and Holyrood

[grunt]

The UK's exit from the EU certainly didn't help the situation. Sounds like Keith is the one getting political by inferring it's not related.
She's there to provide evidence of what she experienced happening during the early months of Covid. If she thinks that problems were caused by the UK Government's insane decision to go for hard Brexit then she has the right to say that in her view it was relevant. He shouldn't be dictating what she should or shouldn't say.

[grunt]

The enquiry is about getting to what actually occurred and the lack of preparation by Westminster and Holyrood
Spot on. And if you'd only listen with your ears you'd hear her telling you what happened.

[lapsedhibee]

The UK's exit from the EU certainly didn't help the situation. Sounds like Keith is the one getting political by inferring it's not related.

Hancock's already said that UKGov's eye was off the ball because of Brexit preparations, so not sure why Sturgeon would be getting into hot water for bringing it up. Perhaps she went too far.

[weecounty hibby]

God forbid that someone is pulling Sturgeon … surprised you have not suggested she gets a sainthood.

The enquiry is about getting to what actually occurred and the lack of preparation by Westminster and Holyrood
So we have to get to the root if what happened as long as we don't mention that Brexit had a huge impact on the preparations.?

While I'm at it, I believe that Hancock mentioned that brexit had an impact. Should we ignore him as well or is it just Nicola Sturgeon who is to be ignored?

[Hibrandenburg]

God forbid that someone is pulling Sturgeon … surprised you have not suggested she gets a sainthood.

The enquiry is about getting to what actually occurred and the lack of preparation by Westminster and Holyrood

So you're saying Brexit played no role in how the UK was able to react to the pandemic?

Your first sentence reads like it comes from a 12 year old.

[Berwickhibby]

So you're saying Brexit played no role in how the UK was able to react to the pandemic?

Your first sentence reads like it comes from a 12 year old.

I am surprised that with your military background, that you were not shocked that emergency plans for almost every form of disaster including a pandemic was not already in place. Apparently there were plans and civil exercises that took place.

Blaming Brexit rather than their own faults and incompetence is great deflection IMHO. That goes for both Westminster and Holyrood.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sturgeon and Freeman have a lot to account for when it comes to the sign-off on letting untested hospital patients, an unknown number of whom were positive, into care homes. That was effectively stamping death certificates in advance. Many people lost loved ones unecessarily. Workers lost their lives too. Those who didn’t faced the emotional trauma of losing residents and colleagues while having to work even harder in near-impossible circumstances.

There is a Scottish inquiry into that with powers to refer to the Crown Office. Curiously enough, a couple of days before Christmas last year, the Lord Advocate, who would have been involved in advising Sturgeon, as would her predecessor, instructed the inquiry that its powers were to be restricted. Obviously releasing stuff a couple of days before Christmas Day keeps it under the radar.

I don’t want to see heads rolling for the sake of it or
for prosecutions to score political points. I just want anyone in either government who made decisions to be fully accountable and publicly accountable.

We all deserve that, especially those who were impacted the most.

[Ozyhibby]

Are you saying the report is wrong?

I’m also tickled at how this is hypothetical but when it comes to policies that Labour hasn’t committed to, all it takes is one unattributed source in the press and you are questioning Keir Starmer’s integrity [emoji3]

That’s the problem with double standards, you paint yourself into a corner eventually.

Didn’t even read it. It’s dead now. The policy is gone. It won’t be resurrected now until England decides it wants a recycling scheme, if ever.
I guess people want to say it wouldn’t have worked anyway and they don’t really need a report for that. They were saying it anyway.


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[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon and Freeman have a lot to account for when it comes to the sign-off on letting untested hospital patients, an unknown number of whom were positive, into care homes. That was effectively stamping death certificates in advance. Many people lost loved ones unecessarily. Workers lost their lives too. Those who didn’t faced the emotional trauma of losing residents and colleagues while having to work even harder in near-impossible circumstances.

There is a Scottish inquiry into that with powers to refer to the Crown Office. Curiously enough, a couple of days before Christmas last year, the Lord Advocate, who would have been involved in advising Sturgeon, as would her predecessor, instructed the inquiry that its powers were to be restricted. Obviously releasing stuff a couple of days before Christmas Day keeps it under the radar.

I don’t want to see heads rolling for the sake of it or
for prosecutions to score political points. I just want anyone in either government who made decisions to be fully accountable and publicly accountable.

We all deserve that, especially those who were impacted the most.

In the search for truth is ‘signing death certificates in advance’ really the sort of rhetoric that will get to that?
With covid I’m inclined to give politicians slack (Tory and SNP) if they are following clinical advice. On the care homes, so far there hasn’t been any evidence of either govt going against advice. Maybe that will come out but it hasn’t so far. There is plenty other stuff they did get wrong imo but if they followed clinical advice then they are going to be in the clear on decisions like that, right or wrong.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I am surprised that with your military background, that you were not shocked that emergency plans for almost every form of disaster including a pandemic was not already in place. Apparently there were plans and civil exercises that took place.

Blaming Brexit rather than their own faults and incompetence is great deflection IMHO. That goes for both Westminster and Holyrood.

There were plans to have plans to have infrastructure and expertise in place for exactly the scenario we faced a few years prior to the pandemic, but the Tories scrapped financing them, take a stab at guessing why.

Nobody is saying that Brexit was fully to blame for the failures we saw during the pandemic, that's just your usual hyperbole.

[grunt]

In the search for truth is ‘signing death certificates in advance’ really the sort of retiring that will get to that?
With covid I’m inclined to give politicians slack (Tory and SNP) if they are following clinical advice. On the care homes, so far there hasn’t been any evidence of either govt going against advice. Maybe that will come out but it hasn’t so far. There is plenty other stuff they did get wrong imo but if they followed clinical advice then they are going to be in the clear on decisions like that, right or wrong.
Much quicker to decide who is to blame before we've had the inquiry. Saves time and money.

[Mibbes Aye]

Didn’t even read it. It’s dead now. The policy is gone. It won’t be resurrected now until England decides it wants a recycling scheme, if ever.
I guess people want to say it wouldn’t have worked anyway and they don’t really need a report for that. They were saying it anyway.


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It was the Scottish Government’s own report :faf:

[Ozyhibby]

It was the Scottish Government’s own report :faf:

I dare say that’s correct. It doesn’t matter now though because it’s a dead policy now. It might have been a really terrible launch but eventually we could have had a good scheme. We’ll never know now.
What we do know is our recycling rate will remain low.


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[Ozyhibby]

I hate cherry-picked multigraphs. especially ones that cite a source as “Statutory Reports”. But that’s an aesthetic matter.

This sounds like a resounding acknowledgement of devolution working well for the people it serves:

Nice to see the Blair legacy making our eco culture better, 16 years on!

And credit to you and the other poster for highlighting it rather than playing the usual partisan petty politics we see.

Wasn’t it the Tories who did not privatise Scottish water?


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[Berwickhibby]

There were plans to have plans to have infrastructure and expertise in place for exactly the scenario we faced a few years prior to the pandemic, but the Tories scrapped financing them, take a stab at guessing why.

Nobody is saying that Brexit was fully to blame for the failures we saw during the pandemic, that's just your usual hyperbole.
My Hyperbole 🤣🤣🤣 think you will find Sturgeon raised Brexit 🙄

[grunt]

My Hyperbole 🤣🤣🤣 think you will find Sturgeon raised Brexit 🙄
She was right to raise it.

[Mibbes Aye]

In the search for truth is ‘signing death certificates in advance’ really the sort of rhetoric that will get to that?
With covid I’m inclined to give politicians slack (Tory and SNP) if they are following clinical advice. On the care homes, so far there hasn’t been any evidence of either govt going against advice. Maybe that will come out but it hasn’t so far. There is plenty other stuff they did get wrong imo but if they followed clinical advice then they are going to be in the clear on decisions like that, right or wrong.


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All I’m asking for is full disclosure. In the circumstances that is reasonable and Studgeon and Freeman were ultimately accountable.

’Clinical advice’ is a bit of a cop-out. Clinicians aren’t gods, although some think they are, and clinicians don’t always agree. Clinicians working in the acute sector notoriously look out for the interests of the acute sector.

The problem here is that a clear decision was made to clear the wards in anticipation of a tsunami of Covid patients needing critical and intensive care. Clinical prioritisation was to keep the ventilators and the ICU beds and the staffing for those deemed to have the greatest chance of survival - younger adults, those without long-term conditions etc. If you were frail elderly, or if you had Down’s syndrome or any other factors that disposed you towards poorer health then you weren’t a priority.

That’s a debate in its own right as it touches upon the ethics of health care, where resources don’t meet demand. The issue here is that a decision, not clinical, was taken that people would be moved summarily into care homes (in itself an area of contested law as to whether due process was followed, with regard to human rights legislation). People with Covid were deliberately placed inside bubbles with the frailest and most vulnerable in our communities.

Thats not rhetoric. That’s cold, hard fact. And it was done on an industrial scale. And when that happens, it is not enough to say decisions were taken on nameless clinical advice. It needs a light shone on it to expose the flaws in the process, the uncomfortable truths about how health is rationed, and how and why untested patients were placed in ‘safe’ environments where Covid would kill, in large numbers.

Sturgeon and Freeman were the accountable politicians and they need to be rigorously questioned, as much for their own good as anything else. It was an incredibly difficult and traumatic time but things went wrong, decisions went wrong, horrendously so for those in care homes through no fault of their own.

Things like Covid will happen again and the more transparency we can find now, the more the difficult questions we can answer now, then the better the chance we have of not making the same mistakes again.

[Mibbes Aye]

Wasn’t it the Tories who did not privatise Scottish water?


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Regulation was devolved to Scotland.

I think the Tories wanted to when Major was in power but there was massive opposition and they bottled it (the decision, not the water).

[degenerated]

Much quicker to decide who is to blame before we've had the inquiry. Saves time and money.Get those tents planted on front lawns.

[Hibrandenburg]

My Hyperbole 🤣🤣🤣 think you will find Sturgeon raised Brexit 🙄

Correct and rightly so because Brexit caused some difficulties during the early reaction to the pandemic. What she didn't do was blame everything on Brexit, that's your hyperbole.

[Jack]

I am surprised that with your military background, that you were not shocked that emergency plans for almost every form of disaster including a pandemic was not already in place. Apparently there were plans and civil exercises that took place.

Blaming Brexit rather than their own faults and incompetence is great deflection IMHO. That goes for both Westminster and Holyrood.

There were contingency plans for every disaster including those for a pandemic and exercises did take place. The plans didn't magically disappear!

Those responsible for contingency planning had a new disaster to plan for though. Brexit.

[Stairway 2 7]

There were contingency plans for every disaster including those for a pandemic and exercises did take place. The plans didn't magically disappear!

Those responsible for contingency planning had a new disaster to plan for though. Brexit.

There's plans and actually having what you need implemented. The icu number difference from uk to Germany pre covid showed we'd have a disaster, due to lack ventilators alone. Scrambling around for ventilators and cpaps when other contrite had double our capacity and more

[Jack]

There's plans and actually having what you need implemented. The icu number difference from uk to Germany pre covid showed we'd have a disaster, due to lack ventilators alone. Scrambling around for ventilators and cpaps when other contrite had double our capacity and more

Define ICU in both countries.

You mentioned this at the time. The classification of wards between these two countries and around Europe differ. HDU in the UK, for example, deal with some of what ICU do in other countries. A direct comparison of numbers, without looking at underlying roles, is therefore misleading.

It's not a case of apples and oranges but different varieties of apples.

[Stairway 2 7]

Define ICU in both countries.

You mentioned this at the time. The classification of wards between these two countries and around Europe differ. HDU in the UK, for example, deal with some of what ICU do in other countries. A direct comparison of numbers, without looking at underlying roles, is therefore misleading.

It's not a case of apples and oranges but different varieties of apples.
It was said last week uk had less than 40% the capacity of ventilators than Germany in all settings, hence our mad scramble.

[He's here!]

SNP auditors say some financial records are missing - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66065164)

[Ozyhibby]

SNP auditors say some financial records are missing - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66065164)

Good news.[emoji106]


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[Berwickhibby]

Good news.[emoji106]


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:confused::confused: good news that important financial documents are missing

[Ozyhibby]

:confused::confused: good news that important financial documents are missing

Think that’s pretty normal.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-electoral-commission-2019-general-election/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23238410.westminster-accounts-shows-secretive-firm-gifted-labour-mps-cash/

Still it’s important to keep all the receipts from raffles and I’m sure that will happen in future.[emoji106]


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[Berwickhibby]

Think that’s pretty normal.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-electoral-commission-2019-general-election/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23238410.westminster-accounts-shows-secretive-firm-gifted-labour-mps-cash/

Still it’s important to keep all the receipts from raffles and I’m sure that will happen in future.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doesn’t matter what jumper they are wearing, it appears that politicians are taking the piss out everyone who follows the rules with their own accounts.

[WhileTheChief..]

Think that’s pretty normal.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-electoral-commission-2019-general-election/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23238410.westminster-accounts-shows-secretive-firm-gifted-labour-mps-cash/

Still it’s important to keep all the receipts from raffles and I’m sure that will happen in future.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The article was about the SNP on the thread about the SNP.

Why bring up the Tories at every opportunity instead of addressing the point from an SNP view?

It happens all the time. Someone questions the Scots Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / Tories did so and so...

It doesn't really address the points raised. Two wrongs and all that!!

[Ozyhibby]

The article was about the SNP on the thread about the SNP.

Why bring up the Tories at every opportunity instead of addressing the point from an SNP view?

It happens all the time. Someone questions the Scots Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / Tories did so and so...

It doesn't really address the points raised. Two wrongs and all that!!

I think a couple of missing receipts is unprofessional but not a major offence. Certainly not in the league of some of the dark money that flows into other political parties. Doesn’t appear to involve oligarch’s or private healthcare providers, that sort of thing. It’s looks like a small time oversite. Maybe you know more?


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[Berwickhibby]

The article was about the SNP on the thread about the SNP.

Why bring up the Tories at every opportunity instead of addressing the point from an SNP view?

It happens all the time. Someone questions the Scots Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / Tories did so and so...

It doesn't really address the points raised. Two wrongs and all that!!

It’s the SNP way …blame here, blame there… deflect deflect …Tin hat on for the usual onslaught 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

It’s the SNP way …blame here, blame there… deflect deflect …Tin hat on for the usual onslaught [emoji849]

Blame who? Deflect what? What’s the accusation? That the party lost a receipt for the meat tray at a branch raffle? [emoji23]


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[Since90+2]

It’s the SNP way …blame here, blame there… deflect deflect …Tin hat on for the usual onslaught 🙄

Someone's not had their snickers today.

[Berwickhibby]

Someone's not had their snickers today.

Being an insulin dependent diabetic….I have not had a snickers in nearly 20 years…boy I miss them

[Berwickhibby]

Blame who? Deflect what? What’s the accusation? That the party lost a receipt for the meat tray at a branch raffle? [emoji23]


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The point of qualification on the accounts reads: “During the course of our audit, we identified that original documentation in respect to some items of cash and cheques received for the current and prior year, relating to membership, donations and raffle income were not kept by the party.


“We have been unable to satisfy ourselves by alternative means regarding the completeness of income in respect of the above limitation in scope.

“Consequently we are unable to determine whether any adjustment to income is necessary in the current or prior year and the potential impact on opening reserves accordingly.”

From the SNP’s auditors…yeah sounds like one misplaced branch meat raffle receipt.

[lapsedhibee]

The point of qualification on the accounts reads: “During the course of our audit, we identified that original documentation in respect to some items of cash and cheques received for the current and prior year, relating to membership, donations and raffle income were not kept by the party.


“We have been unable to satisfy ourselves by alternative means regarding the completeness of income in respect of the above limitation in scope.

“Consequently we are unable to determine whether any adjustment to income is necessary in the current or prior year and the potential impact on opening reserves accordingly.”

From the SNP’s auditors…yeah sounds like one misplaced branch meat raffle receipt.

Hard to know how serious these comments are without knowing how much is a raffle ticket, how much is a membership fee, and what sort of donations are involved (presumably not Russian £millions). If large sums of money have been moved about without a demonstrable paper trail, pretty serious. If small sums, not necessarily serious, possibly just sloppy.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe the raffle prize was a campervan?[emoji23]


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[Just Alf]

"It happens all the time. Someone questions the Scots Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / Tories did so and so..."

Head over to the Tories thread and
"It happens all the time. Someone questions the Westminster Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / SNP did so and so.."

Pop on to the Labour thread and its.
"It happens all the time. Someone questions Labour and the immediate reply is to say SNP / Tories did so and so..."

:faf:


I should add, the Tories thread seems the worst for it... amazing how often ferries have been mentioned on it. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Maybe the raffle prize was a campervan?[emoji23]


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Dodgy raffles? Sounds a bit like Kickback to me. Watch out for Shona Robison offering to do a skydive to raise funds.

I’ve always considered the SNP to be Yellow Tories but maybe after all, they are Maroon Tories 😀

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe our experts can say but I've seen peace say the audit is very unusual, I'm not that bothered tbh same with electorate I think

[CropleyWasGod]

Maybe our experts can say but I've seen peace say the audit is very unusual, I'm not that bothered tbh same with electorate I think

In what way?

[Jack]

Of course there's some records missing. The blummin police took them! Crates and crates of them. I'm surprised the auditor had anything to tick 😅

[Mibbes Aye]

In what way?

I’m guessing a little bit weerrrr, a little bit weeeeeeyy 😀

[He's here!]

Good news.[emoji106]


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Ferguson shipyard: Glen Sannox build costs rise by £20.5m - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-66067065)

More good news...

[He's here!]

Hard to know how serious these comments are without knowing how much is a raffle ticket, how much is a membership fee, and what sort of donations are involved (presumably not Russian £millions). If large sums of money have been moved about without a demonstrable paper trail, pretty serious. If small sums, not necessarily serious, possibly just sloppy.

The missing donations to the Murrells' independence fund perchance?

[Mibbes Aye]

Ferguson shipyard: Glen Sannox build costs rise by £20.5m - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-66067065)

More good news...

This is like getting weekly updates about the Blue Peter Totaliser.

When it reaches £500m will John Craven invite Humza down to Pebble Mill and give him a Blue Peter badge?

[Mibbes Aye]

Of course there's some records missing. The blummin police took them! Crates and crates of them. I'm surprised the auditor had anything to tick 😅

The rumour mill has it that certain briefing material for new ministers was withheld, see here (https://www.google.com/search?q=this+is+the+way+we+go+to+work&rlz=1CARGFB_enGB954&oq=this+is+the+way+we+go+to+work&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l3.24839j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:66d5a99d,vid:4XLQpRI_wOQ)

[CropleyWasGod]

The missing donations to the Murrells' independence fund perchance?

Wrong year.

[Mibbes Aye]

There were contingency plans for every disaster including those for a pandemic and exercises did take place. The plans didn't magically disappear!

Those responsible for contingency planning had a new disaster to plan for though. Brexit.

I suspect the inquiry will reveal a couple of fundamental issues.

Firstly, civil contingency planning was found wanting in large part because there were category errors. People were concentrating on treating symptoms rather than causes. As an individual example, I would suggest there was a fair amount of time and oxygen, pre-Covid, spent on addressing the issue of death certification, how that could be dealth with, would it need emergency legislation etc in the face of an extended mass fatality event. That's the symptoms. No real planning on the cause i.e. what lockdown actually would mean. In essence, we had the equivalent of police enforcing martial law with travel restrictions and the like. That wasn't planned appropriately.

The second issue which I've already posted about is the collective panic that took over in the decision-making processes. 'Following clinical advice' was a handy cover for decisions that weren't clinical but were political and some of them were bad, some were terrible and some were horrific. That was a failure of government, regardless of how trying the circumstances. The inquiry cannot change that but hopefully it can identify how we don't make the same mistakes again.

[Mibbes Aye]

Think that’s pretty normal.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/conservative-party-electoral-commission-2019-general-election/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23238410.westminster-accounts-shows-secretive-firm-gifted-labour-mps-cash/

Still it’s important to keep all the receipts from raffles and I’m sure that will happen in future.[emoji106]


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I dont't mind the link to the Tories, you are birds of a feather after all.

You've got a nerve with the Labour one though. That's an old, old story and I remember at the time you said it would not go away. You were right because you are posting it again :rolleyes:

I replied to you at the time about this non-story, you didn't respond though. Is that how it goes now? Post something irrelevant and rubbish, try and tie it into serious issues like missing money in the SNP and Tory books, get told why you are wrong, lie low for a bit and then just post it again? :bitchy:

[He's here!]

This is like getting weekly updates about the Blue Peter Totaliser.

When it reaches £500m will John Craven invite Humza down to Pebble Mill and give him a Blue Peter badge?

Humza will be waiting a while yet on his badge...I see the delivery date has slipped again to 2024.

[Ozyhibby]

I dont't mind the link to the Tories, you are birds of a feather after all.

You've got a nerve with the Labour one though. That's an old, old story and I remember at the time you said it would not go away. You were right because you are posting it again :rolleyes:

I replied to you at the time about this non-story, you didn't respond though. Is that how it goes now? Post something irrelevant and rubbish, try and tie it into serious issues like missing money in the SNP and Tory books, get told why you are wrong, lie low for a bit and then just post it again? :bitchy:

It’s Sky news’ story, take it up with them?


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[Jack]

I suspect the inquiry will reveal a couple of fundamental issues.

Firstly, civil contingency planning was found wanting in large part because there were category errors. People were concentrating on treating symptoms rather than causes. As an individual example, I would suggest there was a fair amount of time and oxygen, pre-Covid, spent on addressing the issue of death certification, how that could be dealth with, would it need emergency legislation etc in the face of an extended mass fatality event. That's the symptoms. No real planning on the cause i.e. what lockdown actually would mean. In essence, we had the equivalent of police enforcing martial law with travel restrictions and the like. That wasn't planned appropriately.

The second issue which I've already posted about is the collective panic that took over in the decision-making processes. 'Following clinical advice' was a handy cover for decisions that weren't clinical but were political and some of them were bad, some were terrible and some were horrific. That was a failure of government, regardless of how trying the circumstances. The inquiry cannot change that but hopefully it can identify how we don't make the same mistakes again.

You're obviously a modern expert in the field. As someone who was involved in pandemic exercises in the past it's not how I saw it.

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s Sky news’ story, take it up with them?


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It's not Sky who posted it on here months back saying it looked dodgy and wouldn't go away, then had it explained to them that it wasnt dodgy, and it did disappear with all the other waffle, until it was brought back up on here now..

That was you, not Sky, I'm afraid.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not Sky who posted it on here months back saying it looked dodgy and wouldn't go away, then had it explained to them that it wasnt dodgy, and it did disappear with all the other waffle, until it was brought back up on here now..

That was you, not Sky, I'm afraid.

I’d say it looks worse than the missing raffle receipt but that’s just my opinion.


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[Mibbes Aye]

You're obviously a modern expert in the field. As someone who was involved in pandemic exercises in the past it's not how I saw it.

I'm not sure if the first sentence is sarcasm. If so, there is no need - I'm not dissing your opinion and I know from your posts that this is familiar turf for you.

I'm also not dissing civil contingency planning - it has value and it has added value in the way it brings together civil servants, NHS, police, fire and rescue, local authorities, the armed forces etc.

My point is simply that I think we might find that an awful lot of thought and discussion was spent on the symptoms not the causes. I singled out death certs because I remember it being a huge issue in a planning discussion, but when Covid hit these shores it became much less a priority, because we were trying to get in front of the problem rather than reacting to it.

And it was this that unfortunately led to flawed decision-making in government. I would say that's undeniable.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’d say it looks worse than the missing raffle receipt but that’s just my opinion.


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Long-standing Labour supporter legally donates money to Labour, which is then declared and registered - yes, looks terrible, I see that now.

How much raffle money are we talking though?

Was it a branch meeting at Stoneybridge Communit Council with a top prize of a bottle of Echo Falls rose, signed by Shirley-Ann? Total take in the low three figures.

Or was it one of those co-ordinated national mail drops to all members where the first prize is like £10,000 and the second prizes are £5,000 x 8 etc. All parties do them and they pull in high five figures, possibly six figures?

You used to enjoy talking about how large the SNP membership was - we could be talking a hefty sum of missing cash here.......

[WeeRussell]

Long-standing Labour supporter legally donates money to Labour, which is then declared and registered - yes, looks terrible, I see that now.

How much raffle money are we talking though?

Was it a branch meeting at Stoneybridge Communit Council with a top prize of a bottle of Echo Falls rose, signed by Shirley-Ann? Total take in the low three figures.

Or was it one of those co-ordinated national mail drops to all members where the first prize is like £10,000 and the second prizes are £5,000 x 8 etc. All parties do them and they pull in high five figures, possibly six figures?

You used to enjoy talking about how large the SNP membership was - we could be talking a hefty sum of missing cash here.......

I’m not sure if your first sentence is sarcasm. If so there is no need.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m not sure if your first sentence is sarcasm. If so there is no need.

That doesn't work in relation to my post. But they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so Im now counting you as my number one fan :greengrin

[grunt]

You're obviously a modern expert in the field. As someone who was involved in pandemic exercises in the past it's not how I saw it.

It seems clear that you saw it wrong. I'm sure if you apologise nicely we can all move on.

[Stairway 2 7]

In what way?

https://twitter.com/djboyd2009/status/1674764123916189699

You'll know better than me, but some of the replies from auditors saying it's unusual have to sign off with missing records

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/djboyd2009/status/1674764123916189699

You'll know better than me, but some of the replies from auditors saying it's unusual have to sign off with missing records

Ta.

I wonder if any of these commentators have seen the full audit report, rather than the edited highlights that have been published so far. I was never the world's best auditor, but I always knew to wait until I had the full picture before expressing an opinion.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ta.

I wonder if any of these commentators have seen the full audit report, rather than the edited highlights that have been published so far. I was never the world's best auditor, but I always knew to wait until I had the full picture before expressing an opinion.

Perhaps not tbf. Kevin Hague is definitely not objective, he's head of an anti independence group

[He's here!]

Wrong year.

Was there a time limit on donations? It's yet to be explained where (or when) the funds raised went, other than vague allusions to them being 'woven through' the accounts.

Whatever, this latest development echoes the 'lack of transparency' over finances that saw Chapman and Cherry quit their roles.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was there a time limit on donations? It's yet to be explained where (or when) the funds raised went, other than vague allusions to them being 'woven through' the accounts.

Whatever, this latest development echoes the 'lack of transparency' over finances that saw Chapman and Cherry quit their roles.

Does it?

I haven't seen the full audit report, so can't say.

[marinello59]

Was there a time limit on donations? It's yet to be explained where (or when) the funds raised went, other than vague allusions to them being 'woven through' the accounts.

Whatever, this latest development echoes the 'lack of transparency' over finances that saw Chapman and Cherry quit their roles.

Criminality or not , and I’m assuming not, should we really be trusting a Party to run the country when running their own affairs has been a bit of a challenge.

[Caversham Green]

The point of qualification on the accounts reads: “During the course of our audit, we identified that original documentation in respect to some items of cash and cheques received for the current and prior year, relating to membership, donations and raffle income were not kept by the party.


“We have been unable to satisfy ourselves by alternative means regarding the completeness of income in respect of the above limitation in scope.

“Consequently we are unable to determine whether any adjustment to income is necessary in the current or prior year and the potential impact on opening reserves accordingly.”

From the SNP’s auditors…yeah sounds like one misplaced branch meat raffle receipt.

That's the wording of an uncertainty/disclaimer qualification - i.e. the auditors cannot establish whether the accounts show a true and fair view or not. As CWG says we should probably wait to see the full report but the auditors would not use those words lightly, nor would they say anything if they didn't think the potential error was material. It's certainly potentially a lot more than missing raffle receipts but it's rather a 'how long is a piece of string' scenario which is why the report will be uncertainty rather than disagreement (i.e. the accounts do not show a true and fair view).

The second quote implies that the problem lies (at least in part) with the previous year's accounts which I think was the year involving the controversial £600k. Whether it's down to bad bookkeeping or something more sinister, it's really not a good look for the party.

[One Day Soon]

That's the wording of an uncertainty/disclaimer qualification - i.e. the auditors cannot establish whether the accounts show a true and fair view or not. As CWG says we should probably wait to see the full report but the auditors would not use those words lightly, nor would they say anything if they didn't think the potential error was material. It's certainly potentially a lot more than missing raffle receipts but it's rather a 'how long is a piece of string' scenario which is why the report will be uncertainty rather than disagreement (i.e. the accounts do not show a true and fair view).

The second quote implies that the problem lies (at least in part) with the previous year's accounts which I think was the year involving the controversial £600k. Whether it's down to bad bookkeeping or something more sinister, it's really not a good look for the party.


Uh oh.

Mind you, I think just about ANY firm of auditors would want to caveat their report into SNP finances at the moment if only as a kind of 'don't blame us' insurance policy against whatever develops next. Either way, a party of government probably doesn't really want a report on it's finances and how they have been managed and accounted for that essentially says 'could be fine, could be *****' .

[Caversham Green]

Uh oh.

Mind you, I think just about ANY firm of auditors would want to caveat their report into SNP finances at the moment if only as a kind of 'don't blame us' insurance policy against whatever develops next. Either way, a party of government probably doesn't really want a report on it's finances and how they have been managed and accounted for that essentially says 'could be fine, could be *****' .

Indeed. I accidentally deleted a comment about the auditors being ultra careful this year because of the publicity. Under normal circumstances the auditors would probably not use that wording unless they were almost certain something was wrong but they might well just be covering their own backs in this case.

[Berwickhibby]

Blame who? Deflect what? What’s the accusation? That the party lost a receipt for the meat tray at a branch raffle? [emoji23]


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Missing meat tray at a branch raffle :faf::faf: and I get accused of Hyperbole 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

Missing meat tray at a branch raffle :faf::faf: and I get accused of Hyperbole [emoji849]

What is your specific allegation?


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[Berwickhibby]

What is your specific allegation?


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You’re stating that the SNPs account were filed Qualified due to a missing branch meat raffle receipt. I am suggesting after the auditors statement it’s a lot more.

[RyeSloan]

Scot Gov own report pretty scathing on its performance with regards to engagement with business.

I find it odd that a government can think it can legislate without business input, and indeed seemingly go out of their way to avoid it. It’s like they haven’t actually understood at a very basic level how it’s economy functions.

On the plus side I suppose better late than never n all that but probably won’t feature too highly in the ‘legacy library’ [emoji12]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-66063011.amp

[Ozyhibby]

You’re stating that the SNPs account were filed Qualified due to a missing branch meat raffle receipt. I am suggesting after the auditors statement it’s a lot more.

You don’t know that though, do you?


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[Berwickhibby]

You don’t know that though, do you?


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Nope, hence the word ‘suggesting’ ….

[Ozyhibby]

Nope, hence the word ‘suggesting’ ….

And the point of ‘suggesting’ things you don’t know?


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[Berwickhibby]

And the point of ‘suggesting’ things you don’t know?


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But you obviously do, as you stated it’s just a branch meat raffle receipt …time will tell

[Ozyhibby]

But you obviously do, as you stated it’s just a branch meat raffle receipt …time will tell

I doubt time will ever tell in this case. It will remain a note on the accounts and never come up again probably.


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[He's here!]

That's the wording of an uncertainty/disclaimer qualification - i.e. the auditors cannot establish whether the accounts show a true and fair view or not. As CWG says we should probably wait to see the full report but the auditors would not use those words lightly, nor would they say anything if they didn't think the potential error was material. It's certainly potentially a lot more than missing raffle receipts but it's rather a 'how long is a piece of string' scenario which is why the report will be uncertainty rather than disagreement (i.e. the accounts do not show a true and fair view).

The second quote implies that the problem lies (at least in part) with the previous year's accounts which I think was the year involving the controversial £600k. Whether it's down to bad bookkeeping or something more sinister, it's really not a good look for the party.

https://i0.wp.com/wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/auditmembersyears.jpg?resize=460%2C202&ssl=1

Could also relate to the lies around the membership numbers which led to Murrell and Foote resigning.

[Berwickhibby]

I doubt time will ever tell in this case. It will remain a note on the accounts and never come up again probably.


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Unless there is evidence of criminality rather than just SNP incompetence

[He's here!]

Such a lucky coincidence for the SG that the stories about the ferry costs continuing to soar and the missing documentation in the SNP accounts broke the day Holyrood entered its summer recess...

[Hibrandenburg]

And the point of ‘suggesting’ things you don’t know?


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All those smoking gun suggestions that have thus far turned out to be at best hyperbole. You'd think they'd have learnt to wait on the full story emerging before they start getting the Daffy Duck memes out.

[He's here!]

You’re stating that the SNPs account were filed Qualified due to a missing branch meat raffle receipt. I am suggesting after the auditors statement it’s a lot more.

I'm assuming this isn't actually specified in the auditors' statement? Bizarre if so.

[He's here!]

Ferries report tells us so much about how mediocre Scotland is run | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23614546.ferries-report-tells-us-much-mediocre-scotland-run/)

I know SNP-minded folk simply dismiss such opinion pieces as irrelevant when written by the likes of Wilson, but it's hard to disagree with anything here.

Worth a wee wager that the ferries contracted to the Turkish shipyard will be ready before the ones at Ferguson?

[grunt]

I know SNP-minded folk simply dismiss such opinion pieces as irrelevant when written by the likes of Wilson, but it's hard to disagree with anything here.
I found it quite easy, tbh..

[Mibbes Aye]

You don’t know that though, do you?


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What we do know is that the party of government is being investigated by the police, with its most senior members having been detained for questioning. The investigation continues.

And what we do know is that the party of government had to replace its auditors, and that their new ones could not give them a clean bill of health.

And what we do know is that the party of government’s policy commitments, flagship commitments, are failing to be met. Sturgeon’s resignation speech talked about how close the Promise was to her heart and how it was a national mission. The Oversight Board for the Promise have just said that it is not going to be kept in time, and laid the blame firmly at the feet of the Scottish Government.

The main stories are about whether and how much sleaze there is at the heart of the party of government. There isn’t space to highlight the party of government failing its promise to the most disadvantaged children in our society.

Just like the Tories in Westminster, the SNP have forgotten they are here to serve the people. The stench of entitlement and failure is overwhelming.

[grunt]

We know nothing other than what we read in the press. Whether you believe what you read in the press is a matter for you to decide.

[Ozyhibby]

What we do know is that the party of government is being investigated by the police, with its most senior members having been detained for questioning. The investigation continues.

And what we do know is that the party of government had to replace its auditors, and that their new ones could not give them a clean bill of health.

And what we do know is that the party of government’s policy commitments, flagship commitments, are failing to be met. Sturgeon’s resignation speech talked about how close the Promise was to her heart and how it was a national mission. The Oversight Board for the Promise have just said that it is not going to be kept in time, and laid the blame firmly at the feet of the Scottish Government.

The main stories are about whether and how much sleaze there is at the heart of the party of government. There isn’t space to highlight the party of government failing its promise to the most disadvantaged children in our society.

Just like the Tories in Westminster, the SNP have forgotten they are here to serve the people. The stench of entitlement and failure is overwhelming.

Jeezo, imagine consistently losing elections to that lot.[emoji102][emoji23]


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[marinello59]

Jeezo, imagine consistently losing elections to that lot.[emoji102][emoji23]


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The cause trumps all for a solid percentage of voters. Sadly it’s now the lost cause.

[weecounty hibby]

The cause trumps all for a solid percentage of voters. Sadly it’s now the lost cause.
It's not. Not by a long way. Its what the media and unionists want you to think. Its far from a lost cause

[Mibbes Aye]

Jeezo, imagine consistently losing elections to that lot.[emoji102][emoji23]


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It just highlights the true nature of the problem.

This shower are not fit to run a bath, let alone a government.

But they tell Indy supporters they will deliver Indy. So they hoover up their votes.

And they don’t deliver Indy and are truly incompetent in government.

Was it not this time last year, Sturgeon was saying we would be having a referendum this October? And was it not this time last year that we passed the half million mark for the number of times the Scottish Government broke its own law about when patients would receive treatment?

Cant deliver Indy, can’t deliver good government.

What is the point of them?

[Mibbes Aye]

It's not. Not by a long way. Its what the media and unionists want you to think. Its far from a lost cause

You can call it a ‘cause’. The reality is it was a choice, put to the people, who politely and clearly rejected it.

And since then we have had, mostly, a bunch of really bad losers who seem to think they won or should have won but the victory was stolen from them.

I just realised, while typing that, it was exactly the same language one would use talking about Trump supporters :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

It just highlights the true nature of the problem.

This shower are not fit to run a bath, let alone a government.

But they tell Indy supporters they will deliver Indy. So they hoover up their votes.

And they don’t deliver Indy and are truly incompetent in government.

Was it not this time last year, Sturgeon was saying we would be having a referendum this October? And was it not this time last year that we passed the half million mark for the number of times the Scottish Government broke its own law about when patients would receive treatment?

Cant deliver Indy, can’t deliver good government.

What is the point of them?

Can’t deliver Indy because it’s illegal.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Can’t deliver Indy because it’s illegal.


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Independence isn’t illegal if achieved through a lawful and democratic process.

But the SNP would rather start fights they know they can’t win, to stoke the grievance.

They need the grievance to get the votes and get their cushy ministerial salaries and pensions.

But all the while, good government is put in the back seat. No room for the job they are meant to be doing.

[Ozyhibby]

Independence isn’t illegal if achieved through a lawful and democratic process.

But the SNP would rather start fights they know they can’t win, to stoke the grievance.

They need the grievance to get the votes and get their cushy ministerial salaries and pensions.

But all the while, good government is put in the back seat. No room for the job they are meant to be doing.

There is no democratic process though.


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[grunt]

And since then we have had, mostly, a bunch of really bad losers who seem to think they won or should have won but the victory was stolen from them.
Do you just make stuff up?

[Mibbes Aye]

There is no democratic process though.


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So 2014 was illegal then?

[Ozyhibby]

So 2014 was illegal then?

I know we have had democratic processes in the past but the past is gone now. There is no democratic way for Scotland to leave this union now.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Do you just make stuff up?

Like what?

Bad losers? Some particularly fine examples on here.

People,who felt the result was stolen because of ‘Yoon lies’? No shortage of examples on here.

Sounds just like Trump supporters? Yes it does. I was surprised myself, but it is true doesn’t it? Exactly the same bitterness and blaming others.

If the cap fits, wear it (obviously change it from MAGA to MSGA though :wink:)

[Mibbes Aye]

I know we have had democratic processes in the past but the past is gone now. There is no democratic way for Scotland to leave this union now.


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I see. So you are using the reputable and rigorous approach of clairvoyance now.

Still, you are proving my point beautifully. Get challenged on how catastrophically poor and incompetent your governing is - the undelivered promises, the broken promises - and try and turn it into a “We wuz robbed” by a big, bad English boy fairytale.

We deserve better. Regardless of whether you support Indy or not, we deserve better.

[grunt]

Bad losers? Some particularly fine examples on here.Who?


People,who felt the result was stolen because of ‘Yoon lies’? No shortage of examples on here.No shortage of examples of BT lies either, eh? Just because people point out the lies in the BT campaign, doesn't make those lies go away. Or are we just supposed to ignore the lies and move on? I'll be damned if I ever ignore the lies put forward by the Vote Leave campaign.

You compare us to Trump supporters but we never instigated insurrection against the state. Although, maybe that's an idea ... We never accused the BT campaign of fixing the vote.

[Ozyhibby]

I see. So you are using the reputable and rigorous approach of clairvoyance now.

Still, you are proving my point beautifully. Get challenged on how catastrophically poor and incompetent your governing is - the undelivered promises, the broken promises - and try and turn it into a “We wuz robbed” by a big, bad English boy fairytale.

We deserve better. Regardless of whether you support Indy or not, we deserve better.

There was me thinking you would come back and explain the democratic process to me?[emoji2369]


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[grunt]

We deserve better. Regardless of whether you support Indy or not, we deserve better.
Better? You mean lying, u-turning, can't-distinguish-from-Red-Tory Labour? :faf:

[Mibbes Aye]

Who?

No shortage of examples of BT lies either, eh? Just because people point out the lies in the BT campaign, doesn't make those lies go away. Or are we just supposed to ignore the lies and move on?

For example I'll be damned if I ever ignore the lies put forward by the Vote Leave campaign.

Again, you are just proving my point. “It’s all someone else’s fault”, while the SNP conjures up yet more ways to waste our money in so-called government.

We are not stupid, we can see the shoddy attempts to distract us. The SNP are getting paid to govern, and to govern effectively and efficiently. They are simply failing, as this latest farce with the Promise shows yet again.

And who who suffers from the lack of progress? Vulnerable children in the care system, with no voice or agency, hoping against hope that the system will be improved so they don’t face the massively reduced life chances that care-experienced children face.

But the SNP and its supporters would rather bang on about 2014 and Westminster and section whatevers, and manufacturing disputes over legislation they can’t even agree their own view on.

The smoke and mirrors have gone, they are simply a shabby, stale cigarette butt of a government now.

[Mibbes Aye]

There was me thinking you would come back and explain the democratic process to me?[emoji2369]


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Nathan Lyon is hitting boundaries off Broad with only one working leg and you think you have my full attention??? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Nathan Lyon is hitting boundaries off Broad with only one working leg and you think you have my full attention??? :greengrin

I’m at the Hibs game. [emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

Better? You mean lying, u-turning, can't-distinguish-from-Red-Tory Labour? :faf:

Bow about they just do better, regardless of anyone else.

They have a job to do, do it properly, or at least semi-competently. That would be a dramatic improvement.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m at the Hibs game. [emoji23]


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I noticed. Sounds like today’s plaudits are for the seriously-injured or injury-prone in both affairs.

[grunt]

They have a job to do, do it properly, or at least semi-competently. That would be a dramatic improvement.
I happen to think they're doing ok. But of course you disagree, and it seems your opinion is the only one that matters around here.

[WhileTheChief..]

"It happens all the time. Someone questions the Scots Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / Tories did so and so..."

Head over to the Tories thread and
"It happens all the time. Someone questions the Westminster Gov and the immediate reply is to say Labour / SNP did so and so.."

Pop on to the Labour thread and its.
"It happens all the time. Someone questions Labour and the immediate reply is to say SNP / Tories did so and so..."

:faf:


I should add, the Tories thread seems the worst for it... amazing how often ferries have been mentioned on it. :greengrin


Well, maybe if we all tried a wee bit harder to keep each thread on topic there might be more discussion and less point scoring?

Worth a try?

[Mibbes Aye]

I happen to think they're doing ok. But of course you disagree, and it seems your opinion is the only one that matters around here.

To whom?

There is a world of difference between disagreeing and criticising someone else's opinion, and believing your own opinion is the only one that counts.

I'm in the former camp, but if I disagree I will say why and I will question the premise of the person whose opinion I am challenging or criticising. And vice versa.

Otherwise this place would just be an echo chamber. Or like a bot feed with any link people could find that said something negative about someone they don't like. And that would be pish.

[Mibbes Aye]

I happen to think they're doing ok. But of course you disagree, and it seems your opinion is the only one that matters around here.

And that's fine. And this being a place for debate or polite argument, then I will back up why I think they are failing. And I will ask those who support them why they think they ae doing ok. And that's fine too. You know very well from the Labour thread that there are a steady stream of links criticiising Starmer or the party and generally, I try and engage with, and counter them. I don't generally ignore them or put my fingers in my ears and avert my gaze.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's the wording of an uncertainty/disclaimer qualification - i.e. the auditors cannot establish whether the accounts show a true and fair view or not. As CWG says we should probably wait to see the full report but the auditors would not use those words lightly, nor would they say anything if they didn't think the potential error was material. It's certainly potentially a lot more than missing raffle receipts but it's rather a 'how long is a piece of string' scenario which is why the report will be uncertainty rather than disagreement (i.e. the accounts do not show a true and fair view).

The second quote implies that the problem lies (at least in part) with the previous year's accounts which I think was the year involving the controversial £600k. Whether it's down to bad bookkeeping or something more sinister, it's really not a good look for the party.

The police investigation was triggered by complaints about the 2020 accounts.

[degenerated]

I doubt time will ever tell in this case. It will remain a note on the accounts and never come up again probably.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAre you sure :greengrin26941

[He's here!]

We know nothing other than what we read in the press. Whether you believe what you read in the press is a matter for you to decide.

Are you suggesting the arrests of the Murrells could be viewed as a media fallacy? Or that Murrell's resignation for falsifying membership numbers was 'fake news', to coin a Trumpian phrase? That would be quite the conspiracy theory.

[He's here!]

I know we have had democratic processes in the past but the past is gone now. There is no democratic way for Scotland to leave this union now.


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The democratic process remains exactly the same as that which existed in 2014.

[Moulin Yarns]

The democratic process remains exactly the same as that which existed in 2014.

The Scottish Government asked in 2012 and were given the permission to hold a referendum. Since then the question has been asked numerous times and permission has been refused. Ergo the democratic process has changed fundamentally!

[grunt]

Are you suggesting the arrests of the Murrells could be viewed as a media fallacy? Or that Murrell's resignation for falsifying membership numbers was 'fake news', to coin a Trumpian phrase? That would be quite the conspiracy theory.

No. Did I say that? No I didn't.

[Caversham Green]

The police investigation was triggered by complaints about the 2020 accounts.

Time isn't half going quick these days.

Anyway I think the point still stands. There should have been recognition in the opening (and closing) balance sheet that money raised for a specific project had not yet been spent on that project. It could probably take the form of deferred income - similar to the treatment of season tickets in football - but I would go for a restricted fund on the face of the accounts. That would allow for the application of some costs against the money raised.

The worry is that either treatment would have made the remainder of the activities look very poor. That may be why the police think there might be something dodgy about it all.

[Since90+2]

I know we have had democratic processes in the past but the past is gone now. There is no democratic way for Scotland to leave this union now.


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Exactly this. You won't get a coherent response because unionists know it's where their whole argument falls to pieces.

Hence why they respond about watching cricket instead.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/37393ab8c08709a69c6f951ebcf12a2b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/fb66fe6f8e967710e0bf1fcedae9fd2b.jpg


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[Since90+2]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/37393ab8c08709a69c6f951ebcf12a2b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/fb66fe6f8e967710e0bf1fcedae9fd2b.jpg


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Aye, but what about the Ferries eh.

[grunt]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/37393ab8c08709a69c6f951ebcf12a2b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230702/fb66fe6f8e967710e0bf1fcedae9fd2b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThese stone age auditors need to wake up and realise they're in the 21st century. Complete rubbish, if true.

[Caversham Green]

These stone age auditors need to wake up and realise they're in the 21st century. Complete rubbish, if true.

Yep, that doesn't look like nearly enough to justify any sort of qualification. It also doesn't cover the prior year point in the audit report (per the BBC article) or the membership and raffle points.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's refreshing to have the accountant branch of the Hibs supporters club on here to give some insight into the accounts and audit situation rather than the bluster from a few posters.

[He's here!]

The Scottish Government asked in 2012 and were given the permission to hold a referendum. Since then the question has been asked numerous times and permission has been refused. Ergo the democratic process has changed fundamentally!

The permission was granted after a Salmond-led SNP won their first and so far only majority at Holyrood. Since then the dial hasn't moved when it comes to support for independence. As Mibbes Aye points out, nine years of being bad losers and whinging about the need for another referendum doesn't equate to democracy bring denied. If the SNP haven't been able to make any headway against a backdrop of Brexit and one of the most calamity-ridden UK governments of all time it's pretty clear they never will. At least part of the reason Salmond oversaw such a spectacular surge in support for the SNP was because he commanded respect as a First Minister who would govern better than a stale, lacklustre and complacent Scottish Labour party. As the subsequent referendum showed, a significant number of voters were content to vote SNP when it came to forming a devolved government but not to extend that faith in them to governing an independent Scotland.

Salmond may not command that respect any more but he was correct to point out that Sturgeon's legacy consists of a handful of 'silly little policies' that do nothing for voters.

Yousaf's dwindling band of clapping seals can continue to pay lip service to the independence cause but the truth is the SNP are a mess right now and he knows there's no chance of another referendum any day soon. Simply holding on to power in Scotland is his biggest concern.

[Moulin Yarns]

The permission was granted after a Salmond-led SNP won their first and so far only majority at Holyrood. Since then the dial hasn't moved when it comes to support for independence. As Mibbes Aye points out, nine years of being bad losers and whinging about the need for another referendum doesn't equate to democracy bring denied. If the SNP haven't been able to make any headway against a backdrop of Brexit and one of the most calamity-ridden UK governments of all time it's pretty clear they never will. At least part of the reason Salmond oversaw such a spectacular surge in support for the SNP was because he commanded respect as a First Minister who would govern better than a stale, lacklustre and complacent Scottish Labour party. As the subsequent referendum showed, a significant number of voters were content to vote SNP when it came to forming a devolved government but not to extend that faith in them to governing an independent Scotland.

Salmond may not command that respect any more but he was correct to point out that Sturgeon's legacy consists of a handful of 'silly little policies' that do nothing for voters.

Yousaf's dwindling band of clapping seals can continue to pay lip service to the independence cause but the truth is the SNP are a mess right now and he knows there's no chance of another referendum any day soon. Simply holding on to power in Scotland is his biggest concern.

Are you really so blinkered to see the UK government refusal to allow a referendum isn't denying democracy??

[Ozyhibby]

The permission was granted after a Salmond-led SNP won their first and so far only majority at Holyrood. Since then the dial hasn't moved when it comes to support for independence. As Mibbes Aye points out, nine years of being bad losers and whinging about the need for another referendum doesn't equate to democracy bring denied. If the SNP haven't been able to make any headway against a backdrop of Brexit and one of the most calamity-ridden UK governments of all time it's pretty clear they never will. At least part of the reason Salmond oversaw such a spectacular surge in support for the SNP was because he commanded respect as a First Minister who would govern better than a stale, lacklustre and complacent Scottish Labour party. As the subsequent referendum showed, a significant number of voters were content to vote SNP when it came to forming a devolved government but not to extend that faith in them to governing an independent Scotland.

Salmond may not command that respect any more but he was correct to point out that Sturgeon's legacy consists of a handful of 'silly little policies' that do nothing for voters.

Yousaf's dwindling band of clapping seals can continue to pay lip service to the independence cause but the truth is the SNP are a mess right now and he knows there's no chance of another referendum any day soon. Simply holding on to power in Scotland is his biggest concern.

That’s a long winded way of saying there is no democratic process available for independence. Hope you didn’t spend a lot of time on it.


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[Hibrandenburg]

The permission was granted after a Salmond-led SNP won their first and so far only majority at Holyrood. Since then the dial hasn't moved when it comes to support for independence. As Mibbes Aye points out, nine years of being bad losers and whinging about the need for another referendum doesn't equate to democracy bring denied. If the SNP haven't been able to make any headway against a backdrop of Brexit and one of the most calamity-ridden UK governments of all time it's pretty clear they never will. At least part of the reason Salmond oversaw such a spectacular surge in support for the SNP was because he commanded respect as a First Minister who would govern better than a stale, lacklustre and complacent Scottish Labour party. As the subsequent referendum showed, a significant number of voters were content to vote SNP when it came to forming a devolved government but not to extend that faith in them to governing an independent Scotland.

Salmond may not command that respect any more but he was correct to point out that Sturgeon's legacy consists of a handful of 'silly little policies' that do nothing for voters.

Yousaf's dwindling band of clapping seals can continue to pay lip service to the independence cause but the truth is the SNP are a mess right now and he knows there's no chance of another referendum any day soon. Simply holding on to power in Scotland is his biggest concern.

How do we know any of that if we don't have a vote?

[grunt]

Are you really so blinkered to see the UK government refusal to allow a referendum isn't denying democracy??


That’s a long winded way of saying there is no democratic process available for independence. Hope you didn’t spend a lot of time on it.


How do we know any of that if we don't have a vote?
:greengrin

[gbhibby]

These stone age auditors need to wake up and realise they're in the 21st century. Complete rubbish, if true.
Always good to have back ups. Hard copy doesn't have to be a paper copy. In this day and age especially when it comes political parties their accounts should be fully transparent
and open to scrutiny by members. The treasurer was a banker so he should know what is involved with record keeping.

[greenginger]

These stone age auditors need to wake up and realise they're in the 21st century. Complete rubbish, if true.

I think these “ Stone Age “ auditors are the only ones who were willing to pick up the poison chalice of SNP accounts

[He's here!]

Are you really so blinkered to see the UK government refusal to allow a referendum isn't denying democracy??

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yep, that doesn't look like nearly enough to justify any sort of qualification. It also doesn't cover the prior year point in the audit report (per the BBC article) or the membership and raffle points.

Agreed on the first point, although perhaps it has been provoked by the number of donations below £250.

A couple of thoughts on the previous year issue:-

1. if they're not sure about the cash income this year, then presumably they can't be about the py income,... as the party had the same system that year.... hence the comment about this year's opening reserves.

2. a guess is that, given the public interest in the accounts, particularly in donations, they decided to set their materiality levels differently to their predecessors (lower? higher? It's too early for me :greengrin). There may also be an implied pop at their predecessors in that.

Given the context, there may be a lot of arse-covering going on here.

[grunt]

1. if they're not sure about the cash income this year, then presumably they can't be about the py income,... as the party had the same system that year.... hence the comment about this year's opening reserves.
They weren't the auditors last year, and last year had a clean audit report (?). How do they know the party had the same system last year if they weren't the auditors then? So on what basis could they have a concern about py income? As you say, it seems that perhaps they are criticising the work of a fellow professional. Is this what they call a pinstripe on pinstripe attack?

[CropleyWasGod]

They weren't the auditors last year, and last year had a clean audit report (?). How do they know the party had the same system last year if they weren't the auditors then? So on what basis could they have a concern about py income? As you say, it seems that perhaps they are criticising the work of a fellow professional. Is this what they call a pinstripe on pinstripe attack?

They would ask.

eg "what's your system? How long have you had that?"

[Callum_62]

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.So the democratic process has always been driven by voters appetite?

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[Ozyhibby]

So the democratic process has always been driven by voters appetite?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

It’s not something that can be expressed at a box, that’s for sure.


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[grunt]

They would ask.

eg "what's your system? How long have you had that?"Sneaky.

[Mibbes Aye]

Exactly this. You won't get a coherent response because unionists know it's where their whole argument falls to pieces.

Hence why they respond about watching cricket instead.

That was me and I’m not a unionist. I tend to really dislike nationalism though. Brings out the worst in people far too often.

So you maybe want to rethink your post, if you are able to accept the world isn’t ‘us’ and ‘them’, that is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, but what about the Ferries eh.

They are pushing on for half a billion pounds and about twenty years over. It literally would have neen cheaper to build hovercrafts inflated by the hot air that Lorna Slater produces. Pay attention :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

They are pushing on for half a billion pounds and about twenty years over. It literally would have neen cheaper to build hovercrafts inflated by the hot air that Lorna Slater produces. Pay attention :greengrin

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[grunt]

... I’m not a unionist. I tend to really dislike nationalism though.:wink:

[Ozyhibby]

They are pushing on for half a billion pounds and about twenty years over. It literally would have neen cheaper to build hovercrafts inflated by the hot air that Lorna Slater produces. Pay attention :greengrin

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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[gbhibby]

Agreed on the first point, although perhaps it has been provoked by the number of donations below £250.

A couple of thoughts on the previous year issue:-

1. if they're not sure about the cash income this year, then presumably they can't be about the py income,... as the party had the same system that year.... hence the comment about this year's opening reserves.

2. a guess is that, given the public interest in the accounts, particularly in donations, they decided to set their materiality levels differently to their predecessors (lower? higher? It's too early for me :greengrin). There may also be an implied pop at their predecessors in that.

Given the context, there may be a lot of arse-covering going on here.
Would have loved to be the forensic accountant looking at this case.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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I reckon because Labour thinks Scotland was worth it. None of this “we are second-class citizens” nonsense the SNP spout to try and foment grievance and anger :na na:

[Since90+2]

That was me and I’m not a unionist. I tend to really dislike nationalism though. Brings out the worst in people far too often.

So you maybe want to rethink your post, if you are able to accept the world isn’t ‘us’ and ‘them’, that is.

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

[Ozyhibby]

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

You’d think.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.

Something has fundamentally changed, the UK governments stance on allowing a referendum.

[J-C]

I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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And a Labour controlled Edinburgh Council/government who went for a tram system with a company and contract with so many holes in it to make it a laughing stock, original price around £350m end cost not even the full way nigh on £780m. One of those responsible then became a Lord ffs, yes our very own Baron Jack McConnell of Glenscorrodale.

[marinello59]

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.


I’m old enough to remember when Labour spent half a billion pound on the parliament building after saying they could do it for £45m.


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And a Labour controlled Edinburgh Council/government who went for a tram system with a company and contract with so many holes in it to make it a laughing stock, original price around £350m end cost not even the full way nigh on £780m. One of those responsible then became a Lord ffs, yes our very own Baron Jack McConnell of Glenscorrodale.

Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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[marinello59]

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I didn’t comment on that to be fair to myself. (I will because I don’t expect anybody else to.:greengrin)

[Mibbes Aye]

It would be easier to just say there isn't a democratic path rather than the constant deflection.

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

[Ozyhibby]

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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[Mibbes Aye]

And still no democratic path to Independence. It remains illegal.


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I think you are mistaking process for outcome.

I would have said it was an innocent error but we know it isn't. :rolleyes:

[Mibbes Aye]

This isn’t 2014. We had lots of things in 2014 that we don’t have now.


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Dont bring your hair into this :greengrin

[Since90+2]

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.

[Since90+2]

It would be easier if you didn't call me things that were untrue. You won't even row back on that will you?

Anyway, what did we have in 2014?

We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

[Mibbes Aye]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

[Mibbes Aye]

I thought you were supportive of the Union and against Scottish independence reading your posts.

If you support the status quo then you are by default a unionist IMO.


Well you were wrong. I've posted at length a few times on my view - which is that neither Westminster or Holyrood are the pragmatic solution.

As for your second sentence, I'm not supporting the status quo and I have as many doubts and questions about the SNP's independence offer as the next, sane person.

The fact you see it as "you are either us or you are them" highlights why the pro-indeendence lobby struggle to get even a marginal majority, let alone a convincing one. Its the politics of division and grievance. That's a turn-off for most adults.

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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[Since90+2]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

[gbhibby]

Looks like we all love a wee bit of deflection. :greengrin
Can sometimes lead to an own goal.

[grunt]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government.
And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

[Mibbes Aye]

We aren't in 2014.

What is the democratic process to independence in the present day?

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

[Mibbes Aye]

Which is a long winded way of saying there is no democratic route to Indy.


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All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

Think you will find I answered it in another reply.

It's hard work being popular - unlike your pet grievance :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

All very fascinating.

Anyway, what is the democratic process to independence?

I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

[Since90+2]

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?

I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

[Mibbes Aye]

And yet only 25% of Scottish votes went to the Tories. So (yet again) we got a Government we didn't vote for. That's democracy, eh?

By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.

Who would have thought it could have been kicking around for two and a half thousand years and we've only just realised!!!

[Since90+2]

I'm not sure you did think it fascinating, I think you either didn't read it or didnt understand it, because it kind of answers your question.

I've posted a simpler reply for you now though.

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm assuming this is an attempt at humour.

Well yet again, I'm afraid you are wrong.

[Mibbes Aye]

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debates you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them.

Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

[Since90+2]

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

[Berwickhibby]

Do you know what? You are right.

I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?

Let’s step away from the constitutional question for 5 minutes and ask why the FM won’t grant a public enquiry into the absolute scandalous going on’s and apparent cover ups at NHS Tayside about prof Eljamel.

[He's here!]

Seems to be a fundamental error going on here when what I imagine must be Yes-wanters talk about the UK government as somehow something different, something over there.

It's not. It is our government. The SG is a devolved aspect of that UK government. To avoid confusion it used to be called the Scottish Executive. Then, to foster confusion (or grievance) he SNP renamed it the Scottish Government. It remains, however, a devolved aspect of the UK government.

Now some people may not like that. Don't shoot the messenger. Some people might loathe the fact that they are part of a unitary state, with some roll-out of devolved powers in certain parts. Dont shoot the messenger. I think Holyrood and Westminster are fundamentally ill-suited to meeting the economic and societal needs of the people they 'represent' but I'm told I'm not getting what I want. I don't shoot the messenger.

The reality is that it was our UK parliament that delivered devolution and our UK parliament that will deliver more autonomy (or the Scottish 'Government' could have started using some of its powers a lot sooner than it did). Don't shoot the messenger.

It's also the reality that a majority voted to remain in the union less than ten years ago. It is also the reality that polls don't show a majority for independence, let aone a 45-55. And it is the reality the polls show a clear majority has no desire for a refendum any time soon. Don't shoot the messenger.

I can't believe it comes back to this same old point again and again, but if you want independence, then you have to win over the unconvinceds, rather than just playing to the die-hards and the true believers. Drop the bile and rancour and start talking about what matters to people.

As was once opined by James Carville, more than thirty years ago "It's the economy, stupid". Get that messaging right and then you can try and win back the credibility that has been lost on health, education, culture wars etc

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

[grunt]

By Jove I think you've got it!!! In a democracy sometimes we get a government we didn't vote for.
Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

[He's here!]

Something has fundamentally changed, the UK governments stance on allowing a referendum.

In what way has it changed? It's never been the case that a referendum will be granted every time the SG wants one - and rightly so, especially when the demands come from a minority SG.

[grunt]

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.
GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

[He's here!]

Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

[He's here!]

GE 2019 SNP won 48 out of 59 seats.
GE 2017 SNP won 35 out of 58 seats.
GE 2015 SNP won 56 out of 59 seats.

But yeah, the SNP never win General Elections.

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

[Glory Lurker]

Well summed up. Another departure from reality by the SNP is to claim they 'win' general elections, something that could only be true if Scotland were an independent nation.

Great news. Must mean we can't lose them either so there'll be nothing for the other parties to celebrate if they gain seats next year.

[Ozyhibby]

Tony Blair's Labour government won 56 seats in Scotland. Hardly ancient history.

On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The way to another referendum is through Parliament as you say, however both Sunak and Starmer have said they won't grant another referendum.

If the leaders of the only two parties that can realistically hold power say they won't grant it, how can that be a route to it?

Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed up in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

[grunt]

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.
By Jove I think you've got it!!!

[grunt]

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.
You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

[Since90+2]

Parliament was there long before Sunak or Starmer. One never knows, it may be there for a long time after.

Why should the leader of a main party have to meet your "must be in favour of a referendum" test? Especially bearing in mind it is a minority view?

Anyway, Starmer (and actually Sunak but in a very different way) are pragmatic. If the clear will of the people is there then I suspect strongly that there would be an advisory referendum and if that went the 'leave' way, then a confirmatory referendum.

But it would be with a heavy heart. We can accomplish more, together, than divided - that's the sentiment of people who believe in the trade union movement and the European movement and the progressive movement generally.

Especially when those dividing lines are based around (to my mind) silly concepts of nationhood dreamed upin the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, using geography that has shifted more times than you and I have had hot dinners.

So we are to believe that Westminster parties will grant a referendum when all the evidence points to them being likely to lose it? IMHO that simply won't happen. Governments call elections and referendums they think they will win, not lose.

No Westminster government of any colour will grant another referendum in the short term to medium term. Hence my belief there is no democratic route to it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Scotland never gets the Government we vote for. Time for a change. Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for. Who could possibly say that's a bad idea? Not you, surely?

That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

[Since90+2]

That is palpable nosense.

Plenty Scottish Tories got the government they voted for. In previous years, plenty Scottish Labour voters got the government they voted for. If you go back far enough, Scottish Liberals got the government they voted for.

As for your point " Independence will ensure we get the Government we vote for" - well, no we won't. People who voted for the winning party will get the government they vote for. Which is sort of true whether it is Westminster, Holyrood or North Anywhere Council.

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

[Ozyhibby]

Let’s hope the good people of England, Wales and NI vote for mp’s that want a Scottish independence referendum then. That appears to be the democratic route for Scotland. Not sure it would pass many democracy tests but fair play for giving it a go and trying to articulate a democratic process.
Can’t wait to hear Sarwar articulate it that way.[emoji106]


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[He's here!]

On the promise of delivering a parliament. And well done him. Without the offer of more devolution they will never scale those heights again.


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A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.