SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Stairway 2 7]

Been thinking about starting a thread for Reform UK. But I haven't done it yet, and this post is tangentially about Yousaf, I'll post it here.

How's this for overt racism?

Yousaf, born in Rutherglen
Kahn, born in Tooting, London
Habib, born in Karachi.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMWTLLkXQAAAOVV?format=jpg&name=large

I think him being Pakistani and the other two makes it not, although he is ****ing abhorrent regardless. If a white person said two white people are the same is that racist I don't know

[Stairway 2 7]

Flynn sounding positive that the deal with the greens ended, he's on the newsagents tonight, saying he's surprised they are polling 1%. Although talking pish when he says he and Forbes too young to be leader. Only a couple of years younger than Humza who he supported and is he to young to be Westminster leader then.

Looks like old guard around continuity union bloggers like these islands going in for the kill against Forbes tonight too

[lapsedhibee]

Been thinking about starting a thread for Reform UK. But I haven't done it yet, and this post is tangentially about Yousaf, I'll post it here.

How's this for overt racism?

Yousaf, born in Rutherglen
Kahn, born in Tooting, London
Habib, born in Karachi.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMWTLLkXQAAAOVV?format=jpg&name=large
Woke hell. Dribbling idiot.

[grunt]

Both Westminster and Hollyrood on three PM/FM’s in the one electoral term. Shambolic.

Scottish Labour have had 10 Leaders since 2014.

SNP have had 2.

[stantonhibby]

Oh you're right, it is a shambles. The difference being that if it was Sunak, the papers wouldn't run it, the BBC wouldn't mention it and the next day we'd all be talking about something else.

What are you actually talking about? If Sunak resigned the media wouldn't cover it? Really?

[marinello59]

What are you actually talking about? If Sunak resigned the media wouldn't cover it? Really?

Sunak?
Has Truss gone?

:greengrin

[grunt]

What are you actually talking about? If Sunak resigned the media wouldn't cover it? Really?No that's not what I'm saying.

[stantonhibby]

No that's not what I'm saying.

Do tell

[superfurryhibby]

This is probably a bit controversial, but I think I'd prefer somebody that doesn't have particularly strong religious views/leanings.

I'm not meaning this as a dig at people that have religions like Islam or the Free Church, as that is their right, it's just that we now live in a mostly secular society and we need somebody in charge that reflects that.

There's nothing controversial about saying that at all.

[Jack]

This is probably a bit controversial, but I think I'd prefer somebody that doesn't have particularly strong religious views/leanings.

I'm not meaning this as a dig at people that have religions like Islam or the Free Church, as that is their right, it's just that we now live in a mostly secular society and we need somebody in charge that reflects that.

In normal circumstances we never find out what the religious views are of our representatives.

Do we even know what the religious beliefs are of any other MSP or MP?

Unless she was to stand on a ticket on banning washing being hung out anywhere in Scotland on a Sunday then it should be no more of an issue than any other persons religion or no religion.

[marinello59]

This is probably a bit controversial, but I think I'd prefer somebody that doesn't have particularly strong religious views/leanings.

I'm not meaning this as a dig at people that have religions like Islam or the Free Church, as that is their right, it's just that we now live in a mostly secular society and we need somebody in charge that reflects that.

I don’t really care what religion anybody is. We all form our values based on influences from a wide number of sources whether we are religious or not. Ruling out a group of people from political office because they are in the minority doesn’t sound very progressive either.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/itvborderrb/status/1785293824735981734?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Keith_M]

Pretty bigoted that though. I'm not religious but to say no Muslim should be FM is Pretty messed up. I don't think Humza, Sarwar or Forbes would put religion in the way at all.


I said 'pretty strong religious views', plus I apply this to all and any religions.

I also respect the rights of people to follow whatever religion they choose

I'm not sure where you're getting the bigoted bit from,

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes looking likely to run and announce in next 24hrs. [emoji106]
Probably just be her and Swinney. Will be an interesting battle.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I said 'pretty strong religious views', plus I apply this to all and any religions.

I also respect the rights of people to follow whatever religion they choose

I'm not sure where you're getting the bigoted bit from,

I was probably too harsh as you said you would just prefer. But I'd say it's bigoted to say a devout Muslim or Catholic shouldn't lead the country.

[superfurryhibby]

In normal circumstances we never find out what the religious views are of our representatives.

Do we even know what the religious beliefs are of any other MSP or MP?

Unless she was to stand on a ticket on banning washing being hung out anywhere in Scotland on a Sunday then it should be no more of an issue than any other persons religion or no religion.

There is a long association between politicians, morality, faith and values. There seems to be an enduring link between senior politicians in the UK and USA and Christian faith.



I don’t really care what religion anybody is. We all form our values based on influences from a wide number of sources whether we are religious or not. Ruling out a group of people from political office because they are in the minority doesn’t sound very progressive either.

Is that not very subjective? There are religious groups with beliefs that we would not consider as acceptable to someone seeking high political office. Can a politician who openly draws inspiration from their faith be considered progressive at all, minority or otherwise. Is there not irony in the point that all faiths are now minority groups in an increasingly secular Britain. Perhaps it could be argued that religious faith has had far too great an influence on our society?


I said 'pretty strong religious views', plus I apply this to all and any religions.

I also respect the rights of people to follow whatever religion they choose

I'm not sure where you're getting the bigoted bit from,

I'm not sure either, there seems to be a bit of assumption or misinterpretation around what you said.

As someone who rejects the notion of any god, I find it quite absurd that faith manages to cling onto some kind of respectability when applied to those in public office. It's such a convention to assume that belief somehow makes for better people than those who reject religion.

[superfurryhibby]

I was probably too harsh as you said you would just prefer. But I'd say it's bigoted to say a devout Muslim or Catholic shouldn't lead the country.

What if you believe that some of the fundamental beliefs of those faiths are in themselves toxic and deeply bigoted?

I think you're being too quick to label people here.

[Stairway 2 7]

What if you believe that some of the fundamental beliefs of those faiths are in themselves toxic and deeply bigoted?

I think you're being too quick to label people here.

Who's a religious fundamentalist Yousaf, Forbes? Religious fundamentalists that believe in religious law are the 0.1% and the daily mail can throth about them. Most religious people abide by our laws and freedoms. What other jobs should religious people be banned from, doctors, judges, civil service.

[greenlex]

Mhairi Black anyone??
In a heartbeat. One of very few politicians on either side of the divide or indeed any UK parliament that actually tells it like it is. Is she not quitting politics?

[Ozyhibby]

In a heartbeat. One of very few politicians on either side of the divide or indeed any UK parliament that actually tells it like it is. Is she not quitting politics?

She is.


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[lapsedhibee]

What other jobs should religious people be banned from, doctors, judges, civil service.

Already banned from the job with the metal hat, I think (certain religions anyway).

[superfurryhibby]

Who's a religious fundamentalist Yousaf, Forbes? Religious fundamentalists that believe in religious law are the 0.1% and the daily mail can throth about them. Most religious people abide by our laws and freedoms. What other jobs should religious people be banned from, doctors, judges, civil service.

You're doing it again. Equating a reference to fundamental beliefs (which all faiths have) with accusations of religious fundamentalism? There is a significant difference between the Christian faith expressed by more progressive practitioners than those who literally believe every word of the people reflects their Gods law. Is that something you recognise?

On a personal level I find religions to be rooted in deep superstition, outlandish by their very nature and deeply divisive. I don't want our political leaders to be devout anything, other than to be devoted to social justice and improving the lives of our citizens.

No one is suggesting banning people of religion from any jobs, but I think it's perfectly reasonable and not bigoted at all to say that you prefer that our political leaders were not motivated by their religious beliefs.

I would also suggest that you do some reading about religious fundamentalism and it's influences, 0.1% or whatever figure you just plucked out of the sky. You do understand that not all people who could be described as fundamentalist in their views are Muslim?

[Sylar]

A person’s beliefs should only prohibit them from the office if it would impact their ability to operate in a fair and impartial manner that is representative of those who put them in that office.

Forbes is one such bigot who has already said she would vote with her faith and conscience (on gay marriage). If she can’t separate her faith from the office, she doesn’t belong in politics, never mind the highest Scottish office.

[lapsedhibee]

In a heartbeat. One of very few politicians on either side of the divide or indeed any UK parliament that actually tells it like it is. Is she not quitting politics?

She's said she's quitting Westminster. Not sure she's said she's quitting politics.

[Ozyhibby]

A person’s beliefs should only prohibit them from the office if it would impact their ability to operate in a fair and impartial manner that is representative of those who put them in that office.

Forbes is one such bigot who has already said she would vote with her faith and conscience (on gay marriage). If she can’t separate her faith from the office, she doesn’t belong in politics, never mind the highest Scottish office.

Is there a vote coming up on gay marriage? Forbes has said she would not be bringing one and has no interest in making it an issue?


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[Sylar]

Is there a vote coming up on gay marriage? Forbes has said she would not be bringing one and has no interest in making it an issue?


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Sorry, I should have said “has previously said”. Around the time of the last leadership election.

[superfurryhibby]

The ‘Christian right’ in the UK may not be anywhere near as powerful as its US counterpart, but it still tries to exert influence on public policy. This has become increasingly difficult as fewer Britons identify themselves as Christian. Steven Kettell finds that although these campaigners bemoan the effects of secularisation, they have found themselves adopting secular arguments in order to oppose same-sex marriage, abortion and assisted dying.

The US Christian Right would seem to be enjoying something of a resurgence. Evangelical voters have helped propel Donald Trump to the White House, potentially ushering in an era of renewed political influence and religiously inspired policy-making. Research in Britain, on the other hand, has typically concluded that no parallel ‘Christian Right’ movement exists. Compared to their US counterparts, conservative Christians in Britain are far fewer in number, tend to engage with a different set of issues, are typically more left-of-centre in their economic outlook and have far less political clout.

But to ignore the political activities of conservative Christian groups would be to ignore some of the more politically active members of British society. In recent years such groups have contributed to a number of contentious disputes around free speech, abortion and assisted dying, as well as protests about religious freedom and equalities legislation.

Conservative Christian activism typically centres on number of core organisations. These include the Christian Institute, the Evangelical Alliance, Anglican Mainstream, Christian Concern, Christian Voice, Christian Action Research and Education, the Conservative Christian Fellowship, the Christian Medical Fellowship, Core Issues Trust and the Christian Legal Centre.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/britains-christian-right-seeking-solace-in-a-narrative-of-discrimination/

"This article considers two streams of Christian Right mobilisation in the UK – the Christian Peoples Alliance and the Conservative Christian Fellowship – in the context of neoliberalism and resurgent communitarianism. The article notes their roles as moral swords of justice in challenging a lack of local democracy, the weight of multinational corporations, racism and hostility towards migrants. Conversely this article also shows how that same morality underlines an assault on women's reproductive rights and enables the perpetuation of Christian supremacy and anti-Muslim sentiment within the context of a national turn to communitarianism and a discourse about British values and cohesion. The article concludes by highlighting the conditions within which these Christian Right organisations garner political space and legitimacy, the registers they utilise to make their claims and the specific aspects of their interventions and ideology that make them fundamentalist formations"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319112391_Christian_Fundamentalists_in_the_UK_Mora l_Swords_of_Justice_or_Moral_Crusaders


Now, can we stop making ridiculous assertions about people being bigoted, stop assuming that anyone who uses the word fundamental is a Daily Mail reader, accept that politics and religion are not always comfortable bedfellows and get the thread back on track.

[hibee]

Forbes is one such bigot who has already said she would vote with her faith and conscience (on gay marriage). If she can’t separate her faith from the office, she doesn’t belong in politics, never mind the highest Scottish office.

At least she was honest, did Humza not hide to save him voting? I don’t believe for one minute he supports gay marriage either he just didn’t say it, instead he came out with ridiculous excuses for not voting.

Forbes was made out to be some kind of religious mad women by some but we ended up with Humza who tweeted about religion all the time.

I don’t believe in any religion, personally think it’s all nonsense but if the new FM is religious who cares as long as they keep it to themselves and don’t let it influence their decisions.

[Hibs4185]

A person’s beliefs should only prohibit them from the office if it would impact their ability to operate in a fair and impartial manner that is representative of those who put them in that office.

Forbes is one such bigot who has already said she would vote with her faith and conscience (on gay marriage). If she can’t separate her faith from the office, she doesn’t belong in politics, never mind the highest Scottish office.

HY conveniently missed the vote on gay marriage? Think he had a prior commitment which made him miss an important vote.

[Hibs4185]

At least she was honest, did Humza not hide to save him voting? I don’t believe for one minute he supports gay marriage either he just didn’t say it, instead he came out with ridiculous excuses for not voting.

Forbes was made out to be some kind of religious mad women by some but we ended up with Humza who tweeted about religion all the time.

I don’t believe in any religion, personally think it’s all nonsense but if the new FM is religious who cares as long as they keep it to themselves and don’t let it influence their decisions.

Well said. In America, Joe Biden who is a staunch Christian is fighting for abortion rights for woman again, whilst the ex New York playboy who has bedded many woman banned abortion.

Bonkers but at least Biden can seperate his political beliefs from his religious ones.

Religion and politics don’t belong together but if we excluded people with faith from politics then it would hardly be the most democratic thing.

If KF decides to stand, it’s up to the members to judge her religious views and in fact the last leadership campaign was between two candidates with strong religious views.

[Hibrandenburg]

I said 'pretty strong religious views', plus I apply this to all and any religions.

I also respect the rights of people to follow whatever religion they choose

I'm not sure where you're getting the bigoted bit from,

I demand to know what football team the candidates support, it would narrow down my choice candidates quite significantly.

[Stairway 2 7]

You're doing it again. Equating a reference to fundamental beliefs (which all faiths have) with accusations of religious fundamentalism? There is a significant difference between the Christian faith expressed by more progressive practitioners than those who literally believe every word of the people reflects their Gods law. Is that something you recognise?

On a personal level I find religions to be rooted in deep superstition, outlandish by their very nature and deeply divisive. I don't want our political leaders to be devout anything, other than to be devoted to social justice and improving the lives of our citizens.

No one is suggesting banning people of religion from any jobs, but I think it's perfectly reasonable and not bigoted at all to say that you prefer that our political leaders were not motivated by their religious beliefs.

I would also suggest that you do some reading about religious fundamentalism and it's influences, 0.1% or whatever figure you just plucked out of the sky. You do understand that not all people who could be described as fundamentalist in their views are Muslim?

I think your making up a religious fear like some right wing parties do against sharia law. I've not seen any mainstream Scottish politician who would let their religion supercede the will of the people and the laws we have. Both Yousaf and Forbes have said they wouldn't change any laws and have both shown progressive budgets. We are not America where religion changes policy.

I'm personally strongly atheist but I wouldn't bar the large percentage of Scots who believe in what i think are fairytales, from holding our top office

[marinello59]

I think your making up a religious fear like some right wing parties do against sharia law. I've not seen any mainstream Scottish politician who would let their religion supercede the will of the people and the laws we have. Both Yousaf and Forbes have said they wouldn't change any laws and have both shown progressive budgets. We are not America where religion changes policy.

I'm personally strongly atheist but I wouldn't bar the large percentage of Scots who believe in what i think are fairytales, from holding our top office

Personally I worry about letting any evangelical atheist with their fundamental beliefs regarding the absence of any spiritual dimension to our lives within a mile of any of the top offices of state. :greengrin

[Sylar]

At least she was honest, did Humza not hide to save him voting? I don’t believe for one minute he supports gay marriage either he just didn’t say it, instead he came out with ridiculous excuses for not voting.

Forbes was made out to be some kind of religious mad women by some but we ended up with Humza who tweeted about religion all the time.

I don’t believe in any religion, personally think it’s all nonsense but if the new FM is religious who cares as long as they keep it to themselves and don’t let it influence their decisions.

Your last sentence is the crux of my point: she’s explicitly said she would let it influence her decisions and voting, and that’s where my issue lies. Im not religious and wouldn’t hold it against anyone under any circumstances. But our elected officials need to represent the people who elect them: not the particular church or deity they adhere to.

Someone mentioned football allegiance above. It may have been flippant, but religion should be like a business declaration of interest for me that MPs/MSPs are required to disclose.

[Keith_M]

I demand to know what football team the candidates support, it would narrow down my choice candidates quite significantly.


+1


:greengrin

[ardecos]

I demand to know what football team the candidates support, it would narrow down my choice candidates quite significantly.

Be careful, we might end up with Ian Blackford.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/frasernelson/status/1785381369016656372?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A sign that Forbes is feared by unionists? Normally Nelson would be all for someone like her if she was on his side?


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[marinello59]

https://x.com/frasernelson/status/1785381369016656372?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A sign that Forbes is feared by unionists? Normally Nelson would be all for someone like her if she was on his side?


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The problem for Forbes is that so many in her own party will share those views.

[Berwickhibby]

https://x.com/frasernelson/status/1785381369016656372?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A sign that Forbes is feared by unionists? Normally Nelson would be all for someone like her if she was on his side?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Feared is a bit much…respected, yes, admired for her competence yes but not frightened.

[grunt]

https://x.com/frasernelson/status/1785381369016656372?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A sign that Forbes is feared by unionists? Normally Nelson would be all for someone like her if she was on his side?

He's not the only one. Here's well known ***** Kenny Farquharson in the Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fdc8a05-7f7a-4a61-b9b3-4f16c46cf753?shareToken=5f5485f26243ca3aa48f4abdba f2a048


Kate Forbes is unfit to be first minister of a 21st-century Scotland. A 1920s Scotland, maybe. A 1950s Scotland, perhaps. But not Scotland in 2024.

[McD]

https://x.com/frasernelson/status/1785381369016656372?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A sign that Forbes is feared by unionists? Normally Nelson would be all for someone like her if she was on his side?


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He's not the only one. Here's well known ***** Kenny Farquharson in the Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fdc8a05-7f7a-4a61-b9b3-4f16c46cf753?shareToken=5f5485f26243ca3aa48f4abdba f2a048



those comments are shocking. Personal attacks, inferring she’d be looking to repeal civil rights laws, absolutely horrible.

If similar had been said about Sunak or Yousaf when they were in the running their respective party leadership, we’d have seen those commenters being accused of racism or prejudice, yet Forbes seems to be fair game.

[marinello59]

those comments are shocking. Personal attacks, inferring she’d be looking to repeal civil rights laws, absolutely horrible.

If similar had been said about Sunak or Yousaf when they were in the running their respective party leadership, we’d have seen those commenters being accused of racism or prejudice, yet Forbes seems to be fair game.

It’s the same article, not two different ones. They are shocking comments though.

[grunt]

It’s the same article, not two different ones. They are shocking comments though.

Sorry, my mistake.

[Hibs4185]

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1785422055560675661

For anyone criticising KF over her religious views.

[JimBHibees]

Feared is a bit much…respected, yes, admired for her competence yes but not frightened.

Especially when she can easily be targeted for some of her views

[JimBHibees]

those comments are shocking. Personal attacks, inferring she’d be looking to repeal civil rights laws, absolutely horrible.

If similar had been said about Sunak or Yousaf when they were in the running their respective party leadership, we’d have seen those commenters being accused of racism or prejudice, yet Forbes seems to be fair game.

He clearly knows she isn’t capable personally to repeal anything however he isn’t interested in that and is just doing his masters job.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1785422055560675661

For anyone criticising KF over her religious views.

Sort of takes away 90% of people's arguments against her. I think she's always said she would rule by the will of the people and the land

[Pretty Boy]

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1785422055560675661

For anyone criticising KF over her religious views.

The thing is there is far more pressing things you could criticise her for.

She's fiscally conservative/right in a lot of areas (her support for the grifters dream of free ports anyone?). I'd be far more concerned about her economic policy than I would be that she is going to suddenly repeal same sex marriage laws and criminalise abortion.

[Hibs4185]

Sort of takes away 90% of people's arguments against her. I think she's always said she would rule by the will of the people and the land

Why isn’t HY getting such abuse for missing yet another vote?

I find it so strange the abuse she gets.

It’s either because she’s a woman with strong beliefs or the media and other parties are scared of her.

[Andy Bee]

The thing is there is far more pressing things you could criticise her for.

She's fiscally conservative/right in a lot of areas (her support for the grifters dream of free ports anyone?). I'd be far more concerned about her economic policy than I would be that she is going to suddenly repeal same sex marriage laws and criminalise abortion.


She also supports decentralising and giving more power to councils along with creating more local councils to serve communities better at a local level, I agree about the freeports but there's also positives.

[marinello59]

Why isn’t HY getting such abuse for missing yet another vote?

I find it so strange the abuse she gets.

It’s either because she’s a woman with strong beliefs or the media and other parties are scared of her.

The most damaging criticism doesn’t come from the media or other parties, it comes from members of her own party. Mhairi Black said during the last contest she would leave the SNP if she became leader.
The party establishment don’t want her so she was trashed to let Yousaf in, now she can expect more of the same to clear the way for Swinney.

[McD]

It’s the same article, not two different ones. They are shocking comments though.


Sorry, my mistake.



Mine too, apologies

[Ozyhibby]

The most damaging criticism doesn’t come from the media or other parties, it comes from members of her own party. Mhairi Black said during the last contest she would leave the SNP if she became leader.
The party establishment don’t want her so she was trashed to let Yousaf in, now she can expect more of the same to clear the way for Swinney.

And yet Black is leaving anyway. People who threaten to quit if X happens usually end up quitting anyway. When quitting is one of your go to options then it’s never long before you go to it.

I’m wondering now if a deal gets done for Forbes to be deputy and finance minister?


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[Pretty Boy]

She also supports decentralising and giving more power to councils along with creating more local councils to serve communities better at a local level, I agree about the freeports but there's also positives.

Of course.

There will be positives and negatives to every candidate. The focus on one element of Forbes character, and one which is arguably fairly insignificant in terms of what really matters for most people day to day, is unfair and bordering on obsessive.

As said above it's a convenient reason (excuse?) for those in her own party who don't want her to trash her.

[Hibs4185]

The most damaging criticism doesn’t come from the media or other parties, it comes from members of her own party. Mhairi Black said during the last contest she would leave the SNP if she became leader.
The party establishment don’t want her so she was trashed to let Yousaf in, now she can expect more of the same to clear the way for Swinney.

I’ve seen various things this morning on twitter regarding KF. One of which was ‘Scotland is a socialist country and we shouldn’t let her lead with her right wing views’

So many things wrong with those statements. When has Scotland ever been a socialist country??

It seems to be everyone who has joined the SNP due to the progressive policies over the last couple of years. Youngster who support the gender act etc all saying they will quit the party.

Personally my priority is independence and creating a wealthier and fairer country through being independent.

For me, Kate Forbes is the one will take the fight to the unionists and create a more positive environment to allow us to get back to where we were a few years ago.

If it means, the ‘progressive’ element leave the party then so be it.

It amazes me how people fail to understand that the SNP are merely a vehicle to gain independence. After which you can vote for any political view you wish. You can even vote Monster Raving Loony party if you so wish.

My father in law says he can’t vote independence because he doesn’t like the SNP

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve seen various things this morning on twitter regarding KF. One of which was ‘Scotland is a socialist country and we shouldn’t let her lead with her right wing views’

So many things wrong with those statements. When has Scotland ever been a socialist country??

It seems to be everyone who has joined the SNP due to the progressive policies over the last couple of years. Youngster who support the gender act etc all saying they will quit the party.

Personally my priority is independence and creating a wealthier and fairer country through being independent.

For me, Kate Forbes is the one will take the fight to the unionists and create a more positive environment to allow us to get back to where we were a few years ago.

If it means, the ‘progressive’ element leave the party then so be it.

It amazes me how people fail to understand that the SNP are merely a vehicle to gain independence. After which you can vote for any political view you wish. You can even vote Monster Raving Loony party if you so wish.

My father in law says he can’t vote independence because he doesn’t like the SNP

She’s not even right wing.[emoji23]


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[Mon Dieu4]

I’ve seen various things this morning on twitter regarding KF. One of which was ‘Scotland is a socialist country and we shouldn’t let her lead with her right wing views’

So many things wrong with those statements. When has Scotland ever been a socialist country??

It seems to be everyone who has joined the SNP due to the progressive policies over the last couple of years. Youngster who support the gender act etc all saying they will quit the party.

Personally my priority is independence and creating a wealthier and fairer country through being independent.

For me, Kate Forbes is the one will take the fight to the unionists and create a more positive environment to allow us to get back to where we were a few years ago.

If it means, the ‘progressive’ element leave the party then so be it.

It amazes me how people fail to understand that the SNP are merely a vehicle to gain independence. After which you can vote for any political view you wish. You can even vote Monster Raving Loony party if you so wish.

My father in law says he can’t vote independence because he doesn’t like the SNP

The goalposts have moved in the last decade or so in what it means to be left wing, in the broadest sense of the word and going by the old meaning them I'm very left wing, but that isn't enough for the new breed, they'd likely accuse me of being some kind of nazi for not being "their" left wing

Sounds like they would all be better off joining the Greens

[grunt]

A claim the FM will get £52K a year for the rest of his life when it is actually £2K a year from age of 65.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfLTSgWEAA-T3t?format=jpg&name=medium

Also posted by Andrew Neil

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfQ33mW0AADfdn?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Hibs4185]

She’s not even right wing.[emoji23]


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I know it’s bonkers. Being religious and having certain fiscal beliefs makes you hitler

[Moulin Yarns]

A claim the FM will get £52K a year for the rest of his life when it is actually £2K a year from age of 65.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfLTSgWEAA-T3t?format=jpg&name=medium

Also posted by Andrew Neil

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfQ33mW0AADfdn?format=jpg&name=900x900

Sorry!

Under the First Minister and Presiding Officer pension scheme both the First Minister and Presiding Officer are entitled to an annual pension equivalent to 50% of their office-holder salary payable from the day after ceasing to hold office, irrespective of their length of service in the post or their age.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2009/1/notes/division/5/29/21?view=plain#:~:text=Under%20the%20First%20Minist er%20and,the%20post%20or%20their%20age.

[hibee]

Where do you get your £2k figure from?

I thought he got 50% of his final salary too but I’m no expert. He also gets 50% of his salary immediately as a resettlement allowance when he’s not even moving house.

His wife and kids will probably get a pension too. He really has failed upwards in a spectacular way, absolutely disgusting.

[Pretty Boy]

I think some of these figures are misleading as the money former PMs and FMs are entitled to are allowances rather than a pension.

For former PMs it is £115K but it can only be used for specific purposes, it's not some continuation of salary or a pension:

'The PDCA was introduced to assist former Prime Ministers still active in public life. Payments are made only to meet the actual cost of continuing to fulfil public duties.
The costs are a reimbursement of incurred expenses for necessary administrative costs arising from their special position in public life. Generally, these costs can include managing an office (staffing and administration costs); handling correspondence as a former Prime Minister; and support with visits and similar activities.

The allowance is not paid to support private or parliamentary duties, nor is it used for security purposes. The PDCA is in addition to any constituency office which they may maintain as an MP. The PDCA is paid from the Cabinet Office vote and administered by the Cabinet Office Finance Team.'

I'd assume the Scottish scheme will be comparable rather than Yousaf just getting £52K a year chucked at him.

More here for the UK: https://fullfact.org/economy/liz-truss-public-duty-cost-allowance/

[CropleyWasGod]

Where do you get your £2k figure from?

I thought he got 50% of his final salary too but I’m no expert. He also gets 50% of his salary immediately as a resettlement allowance when he’s not even moving house.

His wife and kids will probably get a pension too. He really has failed upwards in a spectacular way, absolutely disgusting.

Why is that?

[hibee]

I think some of these figures are misleading as the money former PMs and FMs are entitled to are allowances rather than a pension.

For former PMs it is £115K but it can only be used for specific purposes, it's not some continuation of salary or a pension:

'The PDCA was introduced to assist former Prime Ministers still active in public life. Payments are made only to meet the actual cost of continuing to fulfil public duties.
The costs are a reimbursement of incurred expenses for necessary administrative costs arising from their special position in public life. Generally, these costs can include managing an office (staffing and administration costs); handling correspondence as a former Prime Minister; and support with visits and similar activities.

The allowance is not paid to support private or parliamentary duties, nor is it used for security purposes. The PDCA is in addition to any constituency office which they may maintain as an MP. The PDCA is paid from the Cabinet Office vote and administered by the Cabinet Office Finance Team.'

I'd assume the Scottish scheme will be comparable rather than Yousaf just getting £52K a year chucked at him.

More here for the UK: https://fullfact.org/economy/liz-truss-public-duty-cost-allowance/

There’s a link above to the Scottish act where it’s described as a pension.

“Under the First Minister and Presiding Officer pension scheme both the First Minister and Presiding Officer are entitled to an annual pension equivalent to 50% of their office-holder salary payable from the day after ceasing to hold office, irrespective of their length of service in the post or their age. There is also provision for a pension for surviving widows, civil partners and children or any person entitled to benefits (with any pension payable based on the relevant office-holder pension entitlement).”

[hibee]

Why is that?

Sorry, not right now, only when he dies would it pass over to them.

[Ozyhibby]

There’s a link above to the Scottish act where it’s described as a pension.

“Under the First Minister and Presiding Officer pension scheme both the First Minister and Presiding Officer are entitled to an annual pension equivalent to 50% of their office-holder salary payable from the day after ceasing to hold office, irrespective of their length of service in the post or their age. There is also provision for a pension for surviving widows, civil partners and children or any person entitled to benefits (with any pension payable based on the relevant office-holder pension entitlement).”

Scottish Parliament have called out the lies.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24291168.scottish-parliament-calls-massively-wrong-story-humza-yousaf/


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[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry, not right now, only when he dies would it pass over to them.

To his kids?

That's a helluva good policy.

[McSwanky]

To his kids?

That's a helluva good policy.

Some might say... unheard of?

[Berwickhibby]

Regardless which party they represent… MPs and MSPs have managed to get fantastic pensions at Tax Payers expense on leaving parliament compared to the average worker.

[grunt]

Regardless which party they represent… MPs and MSPs have managed to get fantastic pensions at Tax Payers expense on leaving parliament compared to the average worker.
Tell me you've not read the story without telling me you've not read the story.

[grunt]

Where do you get your £2k figure from?
That's what The Scottish Parliament press release said. To be fair to you and others on here, I think the £2k is a bit misleading. As far as I can tell it's the bit of his pension that relates to his time as FM. He'll obviously get a larger pension from his time as MSP.

[Berwickhibby]

Tell me you've not read the story without telling me you've not read the story.

I have read it, and the nonsense written about Yousless’s pension has been rubbished, However I still believe MPs and MSPs get far to much pension.

[CropleyWasGod]

Some might say... unheard of?

Damn. You read the subtext.

[Jack]

To his kids?

That's a helluva good policy.

Probably only if he dies and his kids are under 16 (or 18) or in full-time education up to age 23 ... or something like that.

That's my vague memory of public sector pensions generally.

[hibee]

Scottish Parliament have called out the lies.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24291168.scottish-parliament-calls-massively-wrong-story-humza-yousaf/


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I don’t pretend to be an expert but surely it’s their lies too then if the quoted paragraph is on the government website.

[lapsedhibee]

A claim the FM will get £52K a year for the rest of his life when it is actually £2K a year from age of 65.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfLTSgWEAA-T3t?format=jpg&name=medium

Also posted by Andrew Neil

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfQ33mW0AADfdn?format=jpg&name=900x900

Another right wing ****nugget from the Neil stable seems to want people to believe that free bus travel causes crime.

Andrew Neil reposted
Fraser Nelson
@FraserNelson
·
Apr 30
I'm one of millions who commutes by bus daily - but those who do so in certain routes in Scotland now face threat of gang violence after "free bus travel" introduced.

[CropleyWasGod]

Probably only if he dies and his kids are under 16 (or 18) or in full-time education up to age 23 ... or something like that.

That's my vague memory of public sector pensions generally.

By the time he would have been of pension age, presumably?

So very unlikely.

[Ozyhibby]

Another right wing ****nugget from the Neil stable seems to want people to believe that free bus travel causes crime.

Andrew Neil reposted
Fraser Nelson
@FraserNelson
·
Apr 30
I'm one of millions who commutes by bus daily - but those who do so in certain routes in Scotland now face threat of gang violence after "free bus travel" introduced.

It’s constant now from unionists trying to present Scotland as some sort of failed state. Some of the takes from broadcasters from down south are incredible.
And yet every part of govt delivery in Scotland is better than down south or in Labour run Wales. And it kills them that they can’t compare without people realising.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Another right wing ****nugget from the Neil stable seems to want people to believe that free bus travel causes crime.

Andrew Neil reposted
Fraser Nelson
@FraserNelson
·
Apr 30
I'm one of millions who commutes by bus daily - but those who do so in certain routes in Scotland now face threat of gang violence after "free bus travel" introduced.

I dunno, likes. Once they auld gets are hopped up on their pan drops, it can be pretty dodgy on the 23 from Trinity to Greenbank.

You no remember Hell's Grannies?

[Jack]

By the time he would have been of pension age, presumably?

So very unlikely.

Before pension age, in service.

If he were to die tomorrow his widow would get a pension and she would also receive an allowance for the children as mentioned above.

[Ozyhibby]

Whose pension will be bigger? Yousaf or Truss? And whose pension will be complained about endlessly while the other never gets mentioned?


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[Berwickhibby]

Whose pension will be bigger? Yousaf or Truss? And whose pension will be complained about endlessly while the other never gets mentioned?


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On this I agree …Truss is being forgotten and her disaster period also, as she walks away with a gold plated pension

[grunt]

Labour's VONC in Scottish Government fails.

Ash Regan votes with Tories, Labour and LDs against the SNP. So that's Alba for you.

[JimBHibees]

Labour's VONC in Scottish Government fails.

Ash Regan votes with Tories, Labour and LDs against the SNP. So that's Alba for you.

Why did it fail who voted for the government?

[Sylar]

Why did it fail who voted for the government?

Greens. A bit of a statement vote - "we hold your future in our hands".

[Andy Bee]

Why did it fail who voted for the government?

SNP and Greens, 70 votes

[greenginger]

Greens. A bit of a statement vote - "we hold your future in our hands".

and, I think , keeping their msp’s salary for a bit longer might have something to do with it.

[marinello59]

Greens. A bit of a statement vote - "we hold your future in our hands".

Harvie also fired a poorly veiled warning to the SNP about electing Forbes as new leader.

[Paul1642]

Whose pension will be bigger? Yousaf or Truss? And whose pension will be complained about endlessly while the other never gets mentioned?


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Two wrong don’t make a right. 13 months of poor leadership earning him £52k until age 65 is still 26 years of payments or £1.35 million (likely linked to inflation also?). Many

My view on this has nothing to do with party politics and it’s equally as disgraceful that Truss will receive similar. Where else in the public sector would you get such a deal?

[Paul1642]

Labour's VONC in Scottish Government fails.

Ash Regan votes with Tories, Labour and LDs against the SNP. So that's Alba for you.

It’s not necessarily voting with the Tories, Labour and LDs but rather voting against the SNP. Alba know that they would probably do better in an election now than they would in a few years if SNP get their act together, even more so if the Greens get back involved which I suspect they are desperate to do.

[grunt]

Two wrong don’t make a right. 13 months of poor leadership earning him £52k until age 65 is still 26 years of payments or £1.35 million (likely linked to inflation also?).
This is just the one wrong. He's not getting £52k a year until age 65.

[grunt]

It’s not necessarily voting with the Tories, Labour and LDs but rather voting against the SNP. Alba know that they would probably do better in an election now than they would in a few years if SNP get their act together, even more so if the Greens get back involved which I suspect they are desperate to do.
Alba have no elected MSPs. None. In 2021 they didn't win any seats at the Scottish Parliamentary elections, attracting just 1.7% of the vote. I personally expect they will never have an elected MSP. Doing better in an election now than they would in a few years is IMO just splitting hairs.

[CropleyWasGod]

Two wrong don’t make a right. 13 months of poor leadership earning him £52k until age 65 is still 26 years of payments or £1.35 million (likely linked to inflation also?). Many

My view on this has nothing to do with party politics and it’s equally as disgraceful that Truss will receive similar. Where else in the public sector would you get such a deal?

It's not true, though.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not true, though.

Doesn’t matter. I heard he’s getting a £million a week and his own 24/7 security team that includes a personal masseuse for life. It was on GB news.


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[H18 SFR]

Just seen the ‘Honest John’ clip - outstanding ****housery.

[Paul1642]

This is just the one wrong. He's not getting £52k a year until age 65.

Fair enough. I completely miss read a few post above and thought that the issue with Andrew Neil’s post was that the payments stopped at 65 rather than being for life.

My bad.

[grunt]

Fair enough. I completely miss read a few post above and thought that the issue with Andrew Neil’s post was that the payments stopped at 65 rather than being for life. My bad.
No worries. There's a huge amount of mis- and dis-information around at the moment, and it's really hard to determine the real from the fake.

[lapsedhibee]

There's a huge amount of mis- and dis-information around at the moment, and it's really hard to determine the real from the fake.

A situation not helped by two of the last three UK prime ministers being congenital liars.

[greenginger]

Whose pension will be bigger? Yousaf or Truss? And whose pension will be complained about endlessly while the other never gets mentioned?


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https://fullfact.org/online/liz-truss-annual-allowance/

Neither Truss nor Boris or any ex UK prime minister gets a pension when they step down.

[Bristolhibby]

Harvie also fired a poorly veiled warning to the SNP about electing Forbes as new leader.

F him. Money where his mouth is time. Indy or bust.

Bring the Government down and spend a lengthy time in the wilderness.

J

[weecounty hibby]

Alba are unelectable in any area. They won't get a single seat even on the list. Their great white hope for their first elected representative was Chris McEleny in the council elections. They were convinced he'd be the first elected member for them. He got just over 100 votes. They are a rabble designed solely to take votes from the SNP not really bothered about getting in or not as long as they hurt the snp. They are already starting to fall out with each other as well. One of their leading lights recently left them in pretty acrimonious circumstances. They won't get SNP 2nd votes after that vote today. Everyone can see them for what they are.

[JimBHibees]

Greens. A bit of a statement vote - "we hold your future in our hands".

👍

[JimBHibees]

SNP and Greens, 70 votes

👍

[Stairway 2 7]

Harvie also fired a poorly veiled warning to the SNP about electing Forbes as new leader.

He can sense the trough will be pulled from him. Mad how much power they have in the Scottish Parliament when they are only in because of SNP second votes. They got 30,000 constituency votes compared to 1,291,000 SNP or even 592,000 tory votes

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/holyroodsources/status/1785739041268240519?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good analysis from McIver. I could stomach Swinney taking over so long as Forbes and more importantly her policies were given prominence.


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[Moulin Yarns]

He can sense the trough will be pulled from him. Mad how much power they have in the Scottish Parliament when they are only in because of SNP second votes. They got 30,000 constituency votes compared to 1,291,000 SNP or even 592,000 tory votes

Translate those figures into votes per seat contested for a truer comparison.

Back of fag packet calculation tories 8000ish votes per seat and Greens 2900 votes per seat.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://x.com/holyroodsources/status/1785739041268240519?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good analysis from McIver. I could stomach Swinney taking over so long as Forbes and more importantly her policies were given prominence.


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I can see a swinney and Forbes leadership with swinney stepping back after scottish election.

[Stairway 2 7]

Translate those figures into votes per seat contested for a truer comparison.

Back of fag packet calculation tories 8000ish votes per seat and Greens 2900 votes per seat.

Yes miles behind the ******g useless tories. Less than a dozen seats contested and not a large amount of votes in those seats. They live of second votes but think they can make demands.

[greenginger]

Yes miles behind the ******g useless tories. Less than a dozen seats contested and not a large amount of votes in those seats. They live of second votes but think they can make demands.

I think they’ll find second votes in short supply come the next election election.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think they’ll find second votes in short supply come the next election election.

Depends if Swinney becomes chums again with his pals but I defo think many won't stomach voting for greens regardless.

SNP will get horsed with Swinney in both government elections if he stays that long. He's too connected to Murrell and NS to say that is nothing to do with me, he'll be seen as continuity candidate number two when many are calling for change. For me his biggest disgrace is his pushing curriculum for excellence in schools, its a major part in taking Scots kids from being ahead of English kids to being 12 months behind on average, a disgrace.

I think Forbes probably sees it as a poisoned chalice just now, they really need to get Flynn a Holyrood seat

[Andy Bee]

Swinney it is then, Forbes has ruled herself out. I don't know what planet they're living on.

[Hiber-nation]

Swinney it is then, Forbes has ruled herself out. I don't know what planet they're living on.

Aye, resigned to the path towards opposition. Sad times.

[Pretty Boy]

What is it they say about the definition of insanity again?

[H18 SFR]

What an absolute gift for the current opposition parties, coronating the guy with the closest connections to Murrell and Sturgeon available by all accounts.

[SteveHFC]

That’ll be the SNP out of Holyrood in the next election then.

[Stairway 2 7]

That’ll be the SNP out of Holyrood in the next election then.

I think so. It'll probably take that to shake this nonsense though. Why bomb Humza to bring in the same, I actually prefer Humza who wasn't good

[grunt]

That’ll be the SNP out of Holyrood in the next election then.
Who will be the next FM do you think? Sarwar??? :confused:

[Berwickhibby]

Who will be the next FM do you think? Sarwar??? :confused:

Hopefully 🤞

[grunt]

Hopefully 🤞
Just realised I used the wrong emoji in my last post. Should have been "Sarwar? :faf:

[grunt]

Cherry finally posts a comment (through gritted teeth?):


I applaud Kate & John’s decision to work together for SNP unity based on a joint commitment to ensure internal respect for robust & divergent debate in the party & a return to government from the mainstream focusing on bread & butter issues & independence.


No word from her about her pal Ash Regan voting against the SNP.

[Stairway 2 7]

Cherry finally posts a comment (through gritted teeth?):



No word from her about her pal Ash Regan voting against the SNP.

Regan likes Forbes and wanted her in the fold and Humza out. What has played out is more to her liking so why wouldn't she vote against Yousaf. You keep barking up the tree about this side and that side its nonsense. Parties must vote in their interest Labour and Alba correctly voted in their own. I'd say Sarwar would be bookies favourite for FM if election was this year.

[grunt]

Regan likes Forbes and wanted her in the fold and Humza out. What has played out is more to her liking so why wouldn't she vote against Yousaf.

She didn't vote against Yousaf - as far as I understand there was no VONC in Yousaf since he stood down. The vote that went ahead was the Labour VONC in the Scottish Government, and Ash Regan voted in favour of that VONC.


You keep barking up the tree about this side and that side its nonsense. Parties must vote in their interest Labour and Alba correctly voted in their own. You're completely ignoring the fact that she was elected as an SNP MSP. I think that's kinda relevant. She was elected as an SNP member and she voted against the Government led by her former SNP colleagues. I think that stinks, which is why I keep barking on about it. If she had principles she would have stood down as an MSP and triggered a by-election for her seat.


I'd say Sarwar would be bookies favourite for FM if election was this year.

Jesus. Sarwar as FM doesn't bear thinking about.

[Berwickhibby]

She didn't vote against Yousaf - as far as I understand there was no VONC in Yousaf since he stood down. The vote that went ahead was the Labour VONC in the Scottish Government, and Ash Regan voted in favour of that VONC. She was elected as an SNP member and she voted against the Government led by her former SNP colleagues. I think that stinks, which is why I keep barking on about it. If she had principles she would have stood down as an MSP and triggered a by-election for her seat.

Jesus. Sarwar as FM doesn't bear thinking about.

Well we have had to stomach Yousless for 13 months so Sarwar could well be a step up.

[grunt]

Well we have had to stomach Yousless for 13 months so Sarwar could well be a step up.:na na:

[Sergio sledge]

She didn't vote against Yousaf - as far as I understand there was no VONC in Yousaf since he stood down. The vote that went ahead was the Labour VONC in the Scottish Government, and Ash Regan voted in favour of that VONC. She was elected as an SNP member and she voted against the Government led by her former SNP colleagues. I think that stinks, which is why I keep barking on about it. If she had principles she would have stood down as an MSP and triggered a by-election for her seat.

Jesus. Sarwar as FM doesn't bear thinking about.

Surely the very fact she defected from SNP to Alba is a vote of no confidence in the SNP and by extension the SNP government in itself? She's just being consistent.

Ash Regan is a constituency MSP, which means she was voted for by her constituents. Her constituents, technically, were voting for her and not for the SNP so she's perfectly justified to remain as an MSP after her defection. Although I would agree that a lot of voters would just vote for whoever was standing for their preferred party, we do still have constituency MSP's and we are meant to vote for them on their merits and what they personally stand for rather than which party they represent.

If she had been a regional MSP then there would be much more of a case for her to step down and the next on the SNP list step into her place because the regional vote is for a party and not a person.

[Berwickhibby]

:na na:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Jones28]

Well we have had to stomach Yousless for 13 months so Sarwar could well be a step up.

The witty nickname stuff really is tiresome.

[One Day Soon]

From a Labour point of view this is tremendous. It's hard to believe just how detached from reality the SNP establishment has become but I suppose 17 years in power does that.

Swinney as leader without any challenge and Forbes just buys into it? Absolutely remarkable. Someone is bound to produce a meme of Swinney on strings with Sturgeon and Murrell working him from above. When you think of the heyday under Salmond and then earlier Sturgeon this is incredible, there's more than a touch of the Ally McLeod and Argentina '78 about it.

[Stairway 2 7]

She didn't vote against Yousaf - as far as I understand there was no VONC in Yousaf since he stood down. The vote that went ahead was the Labour VONC in the Scottish Government, and Ash Regan voted in favour of that VONC.

You're completely ignoring the fact that she was elected as an SNP MSP. I think that's kinda relevant. She was elected as an SNP member and she voted against the Government led by her former SNP colleagues. I think that stinks, which is why I keep barking on about it. If she had principles she would have stood down as an MSP and triggered a by-election for her seat.



Jesus. Sarwar as FM doesn't bear thinking about.

No you've got it completely wrong you vote for a person not a party, they can change sides go independent it's up to them.

As for Sarwar I think he'll be awful. Then again we're going to get a FM who helped put education in Scotland miles behind England and no stranger to votes of no confidence, we're doomed

[Just Alf]

The witty nickname stuff really is tiresome.Clearly a daily Heil reader, that was the paper that "coined" it before he was elected (by the members) as FM :greengrin

[Just Alf]

On the vote for "person ' not 'party '
That may happen in the odd constituency where there's a particularly strong local candidate but for the vast majority of us I guess we'll look for the party badge and put our tick against it

[Berwickhibby]

Clearly a daily Heil reader, that was the paper that "coined" it before he was elected (by the members) as FM :greengrin

Nope …would not read that rag…but the nickname is apt. :greengrin:greengrin

[Just Alf]

Nope …would not read that rag…but the nickname is apt. :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

The witty nickname stuff really is tiresome.

File alongside Tony Bliar, Liebour Party, Keith for Starmer. I'm sure there are loads more.

[Stairway 2 7]

On the vote for "person ' not 'party '
That may happen in the odd constituency where there's a particularly strong local candidate but for the vast majority of us I guess we'll look for the party badge and put our tick against it

But that is the system and its benefited all parties at different times and we probably should change it. Its just the way it is. Similar was John Swinney said tories must do the decent thing and call a general election before Sunak took over unelected by the people, I probably agree but it's the way things are

[Just Alf]

But that is the system and its benefited all parties at different times and we probably should change it. Its just the way it is. Similar was John Swinney said tories must do the decent thing and call a general election before Sunak took over unelected by the people, I probably agree but it's the way things are

No argument from me, totally agree.... so often though people say they've voted for someone because they're SNP, Labour etc .


Also the election thing is interesting, if an election was called just now, incredibly the fixed term thing isn't reset, we'd all be getting asked to vote again next year :-/

[One Day Soon]

No argument from me, totally agree.... so often though people say they've voted for someone because they're SNP, Labour etc .


Also the election thing is interesting, if an election was called just now, incredibly the fixed term thing isn't reset, we'd all be getting asked to vote again next year :-/


I think you mean 2026, that's when the next fixed term Scottish Parliament election is due.

[MKHIBEE]

The witty nickname stuff really is tiresome.

Witty?

[lapsedhibee]

Witty?

Witty /s

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24288800.number-scottish-children-care-lowest-decades/

Wonder if the Scottish child payment is a factor in this?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240503/3efe6dc198d41fcc4ec6164362647123.jpg


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[Sylar]

I thought the SNP were vehemently against unelected leaders, seeing as they've (rightly) demanded elections every time a new Tory leader has popped up in the Westminster Whack-a-Mole show?

[hibee]

I thought the SNP were vehemently against unelected leaders, seeing as they've (rightly) demanded elections every time a new Tory leader has popped up in the Westminster Whack-a-Mole show?

October 2022 news: John Swinney has urged the Tories to "do the decent thing" and call a general election and not elect another new leader and prime minister without going to the public.

It would seem that it’s ok now if it’s him and his party doing the exact same thing he demanded the Tories didn’t do.

[McD]

October 2022 news: John Swinney has urged the Tories to "do the decent thing" and call a general election and not elect another new leader and prime minister without going to the public.

It would seem that it’s ok now if it’s him and his party doing the exact same thing he demanded the Tories didn’t do.



Politicians and hypocrisy go hand in hand sadly. They all like to point score against other parties but don’t hold themselves to the same standards

[Bristolhibby]

I thought the SNP were vehemently against unelected leaders, seeing as they've (rightly) demanded elections every time a new Tory leader has popped up in the Westminster Whack-a-Mole show?

Is this it old news? Humza was became FM in March 23.

J

[Just Alf]

I think you mean 2026, that's when the next fixed term Scottish Parliament election is due.I do, sure I heard in the debate it was 18 months .

[grunt]

No you've got it completely wrong you vote for a person not a party, they can change sides go independent it's up to them.
I'm aware of that. Still think it's wrong, because in the real world voters don't solely vote for candidates, party is also a significant factor in people's voting choices.

[Sylar]

Is this it old news? Humza was became FM in March 23.

J

Doesn't matter how old the news is - the hypocrisy is current. Especially when Swinney himself has been extremely vocal on the issue in the past.

[Jack]

October 2022 news: John Swinney has urged the Tories to "do the decent thing" and call a general election and not elect another new leader and prime minister without going to the public.

It would seem that it’s ok now if it’s him and his party doing the exact same thing he demanded the Tories didn’t do.

In certain circumstances I think its relatively OK for this FM/PM election to happen. This is where the new FM/PM broadly follows the policies carried out by their predecessor.

Where I think its wrong is what the torys have been upto. Theresa May being bumped by BJ although he called an election fairly soon after and was elected. The steady stream of 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate rejects we've had since BJ who have set their own agenda, miles away from any election manifesto, is plain wrong. In my opinion.

[grunt]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium

[Jones28]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium

Yikes, party politics aside that’s in really poor taste, no?

[weecounty hibby]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium

That's horrific and wouldn't have looked out of place on the cover of Das Reich or Der Sturmer in the 1930s

[Stairway 2 7]

In certain circumstances I think its relatively OK for this FM/PM election to happen. This is where the new FM/PM broadly follows the policies carried out by their predecessor.

Where I think its wrong is what the torys have been upto. Theresa May being bumped by BJ although he called an election fairly soon after and was elected. The steady stream of 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate rejects we've had since BJ who have set their own agenda, miles away from any election manifesto, is plain wrong. In my opinion.

Are the certain circumstances when parties you prefer do it? It is utterly embarrassing hypocrisy for Swinney to say what he did about the tories not calling an election and him jumping in unelected to FM.

I'd maybe prefer an American system where the Vice jumps is, so your voting for 2 people. Can't have constant election but as you say the system we have where politicians with different views can become PM/FM

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm aware of that. Still think it's wrong, because in the real world voters don't solely vote for candidates, party is also a significant factor in people's voting choices.

I agree with you but every party would need to want to change that and I've never heard one call for it

[lapsedhibee]

I agree with you but every party would need to want to change that and I've never heard one call for it

Why would every party need to want to change it? Any party with an overall majority (or in Scotland any two parties with a combined majority) could just pass a law to say it has to happen.

[Jack]

Are the certain circumstances when parties you prefer do it? It is utterly embarrassing hypocrisy for Swinney to say what he did about the tories not calling an election and him jumping in unelected to FM.

I'd maybe prefer an American system where the Vice jumps is, so your voting for 2 people. Can't have constant election but as you say the system we have where politicians with different views can become PM/FM

Nope. If Swinney was to change the direction of the SNP government I'd say that was wrong. There's nothing to suggest he will. Indeed it's probably the reverse where he'll go back to SNP basics and the type of policies the SNP are well known for.

[Sergio sledge]

I agree with you but every party would need to want to change that and I've never heard one call for it

So are you proposing to just vote for a party at every election and the party just picks from a list of people to represent them in parliament?

I totally disagree with this, one of the key things about a constituency MSP for me is that they live locally and have an understanding of the issues affecting people in their local area, particularly living in the highlands where the issues affecting us are vastly different to the issues in Leith for example.

Rather than changing the system to suit people who are not engaged enough to look at the local candidates and weigh up each on their merits, why not make a point to educate people of the benefits of looking at the candidate rather than blindly voting on party and selecting someone to represent them.

I think one issue with politics at the minute is that it is moving away from local representation to party first politics with MSP's whipped to vote according to what the party wants in 99% of the votes. MSPs (and MPs) should be allowed to do what they were elected to do and vote on what they think their constituents would want and what serves their local area the best, even if that means going against their party.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m happy with current system and feel it’s easy to ignore opposition politicians of whatever party calling for an election.


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[Sylar]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium

I'm no SNP fan, but that's utterly beyond the pale...

[Stairway 2 7]

Why would every party need to want to change it? Any party with an overall majority (or in Scotland any two parties with a combined majority) could just pass a law to say it has to happen.

Yep but no party does want to so it's a moot point, we can't complain when someone does switch.

I disagree with others above. Since so many politicians are tied to what the whip tells them I think it's a fundamental change if someone goes from say SNP to Labour. Yes we should vote for the person but I'd bet 90% vote for the party

[Stairway 2 7]

Nope. If Swinney was to change the direction of the SNP government I'd say that was wrong. There's nothing to suggest he will. Indeed it's probably the reverse where he'll go back to SNP basics and the type of policies the SNP are well known for.

So he's changing direction of the SNP to go back to basics but not changing. He's a hypocrite but that's not a big story He's just a politicians

[JimBHibees]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium

Despicable on a common decency level irrespective of whatever party it is. What a toxic country we have become

[JimBHibees]

Yep but no party does want to so it's a moot point, we can't complain when someone does switch.

I disagree with others above. Since so many politicians are tied to what the whip tells them I think it's a fundamental change if someone goes from say SNP to Labour. Yes we should vote for the person but I'd bet 90% vote for the party

Unless the candidate is particularly popular locally and sits as an independent totally agree vast majority will vote on a party basis.

[Ozyhibby]

Despicable on a common decency level irrespective of whatever party it is. What a toxic country we have become

They only do it with Scottish politicians.


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[grunt]

A number of people on this very thread thought the Times' Brookes cartoon from Good Friday 2023 was very funny.
For those who don't remember it, it's here

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtIfkMMXoDEpDdR?format=png&name=900x900

[Moulin Yarns]

So are you proposing to just vote for a party at every election and the party just picks from a list of people to represent them in parliament?

I totally disagree with this, one of the key things about a constituency MSP for me is that they live locally and have an understanding of the issues affecting people in their local area, particularly living in the highlands where the issues affecting us are vastly different to the issues in Leith for example.

Rather than changing the system to suit people who are not engaged enough to look at the local candidates and weigh up each on their merits, why not make a point to educate people of the benefits of looking at the candidate rather than blindly voting on party and selecting someone to represent them.

I think one issue with politics at the minute is that it is moving away from local representation to party first politics with MSP's whipped to vote according to what the party wants in 99% of the votes. MSPs (and MPs) should be allowed to do what they were elected to do and vote on what they think their constituents would want and what serves their local area the best, even if that means going against their party.

That's pretty much what the tories do in Scotland, Murdo Fraser and Stephen Kerr anyone? 😉

[JimBHibees]

They only do it with Scottish politicians.


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Looks like it

[degenerated]

A number of people on this very thread thought the Times' Brookes cartoon from Good Friday 2023 was very funny.
For those who don't remember it, it's here

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtIfkMMXoDEpDdR?format=png&name=900x900Or these 2784427845

[One Day Soon]

From today's Times

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMpLGbeXEAAzUPk?format=jpg&name=medium


That's an absolute ****ing disgrace. I'm as angry about that as I was when someone on here casually described Gordon Brown as a Quisling. Words - and in this case pictures - have meaning and they also have consequences.

There is no excuse for this sort of casual and deliberate dragging of politics and politicians into the gutter. It happens routinely on social media too - particularly Twitter - and to my mind it's quite deliberately stepping well over a line. We talk a lot about hate crime these days, well this looks a lot more like one to me. There are no end of possibilities for rightly ripping the piss out of politicians without majoring on the suggestion of death or physical injury. Tasteless and dangerous.

And I say this as someone who wishes the SNP and nationalism no end of failure.

[One Day Soon]

They only do it with Scottish politicians.


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No, they don't.

Corbyn's head on a plate: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/oct/29/steve-bell-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-cartoon (http://https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/oct/29/steve-bell-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-cartoon)

Netanyahu and the pound of flesh: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-steve-bell/

Priti Patel (a Hindu) as a bull: https://twitter.com/CAMERAorgUK/status/1270279236931248129

[superfurryhibby]

That's an absolute ****ing disgrace. I'm as angry about that as I was when someone on here casually described Gordon Brown as a Quisling. Words - and in this case pictures - have meaning and they also have consequences.

There is no excuse for this sort of casual and deliberate dragging of politics and politicians into the gutter. It happens routinely on social media too - particularly Twitter - and to my mind it's quite deliberately stepping well over a line. We talk a lot about hate crime these days, well this looks a lot more like one to me. There are no end of possibilities for rightly ripping the piss out of politicians without majoring on the suggestion of death or physical injury. Tasteless and dangerous.

And I say this as someone who wishes the SNP and nationalism no end of failure.

Well said. I'm no fan of the SNP, but a long standing supporter of independence. This kind of imagery is not acceptable. I hope it's reported to some authority or another and that the Times gets it erse booted.

[greenginger]

No, they don't.

Corbyn's head on a plate: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/oct/29/steve-bell-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-cartoon (http://https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/oct/29/steve-bell-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-cartoon)

Netanyahu and the pound of flesh: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-steve-bell/

Priti Patel (a Hindu) as a bull: https://twitter.com/CAMERAorgUK/status/1270279236931248129


add Guardian Tory zombie

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2023/nov/25/the-zombie-tory-government-staggers-on-cartoon#img-1


They are just cartoons , nobody is getting hung or turned into a zombie.

[grunt]

add Guardian Tory zombie

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2023/nov/25/the-zombie-tory-government-staggers-on-cartoon#img-1


They are just cartoons , nobody is getting hung or turned into a zombie.
Completely different. Which Tory politician do you think the zombie represents?

[Moulin Yarns]

Completely different. Which Tory politician do you think the zombie represents?

Isn't it obvious, Rees-mogg. 🤣

[Sylar]

Isn't it obvious, Rees-mogg. 🤣

Wrong supernatural creature. Clearly a vampire.

[JimBHibees]

Well said. I'm no fan of the SNP, but a long standing supporter of independence. This kind of imagery is not acceptable. I hope it's reported to some authority or another and that the Times gets it erse booted.

BBC Scotland will surely have been reporting it as an outrage

[Berwickhibby]

A number of people on this very thread thought the Times' Brookes cartoon from Good Friday 2023 was very funny.
For those who don't remember it, it's here

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtIfkMMXoDEpDdR?format=png&name=900x900

I am one who found that cartoon funny, but I saw more the comedy of Monty Python, rather than anything sinister. However the latest hanging cartoon at best is poor taste but I am leaning more to offensive by it’s portrayal

[marinello59]

So much for democracy. A warning to anyone thinking about stopping his coronation. The sense of entitlement is off the scale.

https://news.sky.com/story/john-swinney-warns-against-rivals-entering-snp-leadership-race-13129656

[Ozyhibby]

So much for democracy. A warning to anyone thinking about stopping his coronation. The sense of entitlement is off the scale.

https://news.sky.com/story/john-swinney-warns-against-rivals-entering-snp-leadership-race-13129656

Really? I would not have chosen Swinney but even I can see that an attention seeking activist standing is a complete waste of time. An amendment needs to be made to the rules that only an MSP or MP can stand.


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[weecounty hibby]

So much for democracy. A warning to anyone thinking about stopping his coronation. The sense of entitlement is off the scale.

https://news.sky.com/story/john-swinney-warns-against-rivals-entering-snp-leadership-race-13129656

It's a nonsense. The guy is a well known activist but he will never in a million years be party leader. What he will do is cost the party about 100k to run an election and allow all sorts of **** to be thrown about by the opposition and media. Pointless ego trip

[Ozyhibby]

It's a nonsense. The guy is a well known activist but he will never in a million years be party leader. What he will do is cost the party about 100k to run an election and allow all sorts of **** to be thrown about by the opposition and media. Pointless ego trip

He has pulled out. Likely realising he has not even the support for the nomination.


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[Andy Bee]

He has pulled out. Likely realising he has not even the support for the nomination.


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He did get the nominations. He's spoken with Swinney and since stepped away.


"John and I agreed the challenges which the SNP, our Government and our people face, and explored new thinking on a range of issues which I am confident, as they are advanced, will inspire activists both within the SNP and wider Independence Movement in the following weeks and months".

Hopefully it's a look into Graemes tax ideas.

[H18 SFR]

He has pulled out. Likely realising he has not even the support for the nomination.


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Apparently, he was gathering the required 100 signatures from party members on his clipboard at an independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday. It doesn't get more grassroots than that. From Sky News.

A man carrying a clipboard can secure a nomination to lead the party governing Scotland.

Just sell holyrood for housing and let Westminster be the parliament. Total piss take.

[SteveHFC]

Do we think Swinney if appointed will do another deal with the Greens?

[grunt]

Just sell holyrood for housing and let Westminster be the parliament. Total piss take.:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Apparently, he was gathering the required 100 signatures from party members on his clipboard at an independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday. It doesn't get more grassroots than that. From Sky News.

A man carrying a clipboard can secure a nomination to lead the party governing Scotland.

Just sell holyrood for housing and let Westminster be the parliament. Total piss take.

Not sure why we even need the Westminster parliament. Why can't Charles III make all the necessary decisions? :dunno:

[marinello59]

Apparently, he was gathering the required 100 signatures from party members on his clipboard at an independence rally in Glasgow on Saturday. It doesn't get more grassroots than that. From Sky News.

A man carrying a clipboard can secure a nomination to lead the party governing Scotland.

Just sell holyrood for housing and let Westminster be the parliament. Total piss take.

It makes you yearn for the good old days when the major decisions were made by the husband and wife team running the party and a couple of their pals. I'm wondering if this long term party member and activist isn't actually a unionist sleeper. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Do we think Swinney if appointed will do another deal with the Greens?

He will have to do deals with all the other parties to get things done. That's not a bad thing, it's the way our parliament was designed to operate, a distinct difference from the winner takes all attitude at Westminster. I'm no great fan of Swinney but pragmatic and boring may be exactly what we need right now.

[JimBHibees]

He will have to do deals with all the other parties to get things done. That's not a bad thing, it's the way our parliament was designed to operate, a distinct difference from the winner takes all attitude at Westminster. I'm no great fan of Swinney but pragmatic and boring may be exactly what we need right now.

Agree as long as other parties work in such a consensual basis rather than trying to score political points

[grunt]

Agree as long as other parties work in such a consensual basis rather than trying to score political pointsDouglas Ross' one and only policy is to try to score petty political points. And he can't even do that.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree as long as other parties work in such a consensual basis rather than trying to score political points

You design good popular legislation firmly in the centre of political thinking that the public want to see happen and then you make it difficult for the other parties to oppose.
It’s the only way for a party like the SNP to operate.


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[Paul1642]

Do we think Swinney if appointed will do another deal with the Greens?

Probably. He’s going to need them to vote him as FM or at least persuade them to abstain however he needs to be very weary of being too close with them. If he’s willing to have some balls then IMO he can avoid making any deal with them safe in the knowledge that in the same ways that Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas, greens won’t vote to cause an early election that would see them wipe out their MSPs.

Patrick Harvie today said “Mr Swinney knows that if he is to have our support then it must be on the basis of progressive policies that help us to tackle the climate crisis and build a fairer and more equal future.”

Whilst tacking climate change and building a fairer society sounds good on the face of it, it’s the greens ‘progressive’ agenda that has helped to alienate so many people from the SNP. If Swinney gets back in bed with the greens then we can all look forward to FM Sarwar in 2026.

I’m not particularly pro or anti SNP but I have a lot more faith in them to do right by the country without the greens than with them.

[Col2]

I thought JS was impressive today.

He avoided leading with a cry for independence and said his priorities were cost of living, schools, health service etc. if he can run the country and not get bogged down with diversity extreme policies it will be refreshing. If he can work with others to better Scotland it will be refreshing. The green are run by two crackpots but he will need to work with them.

His passion to eradicate child poverty is one that I feel strongly about and breaks my hearts that we have this in this country.

Good start for day one.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought JS was impressive today.

He avoided leading with a cry for independence and said his priorities were cost of living, schools, health service etc. if he can run the country and not get bogged down with diversity extreme policies it will be refreshing. If he can work with others to better Scotland it will be refreshing. The green are run by two crackpots but he will need to work with them.

His passion to eradicate child poverty is one that I feel strongly about and breaks my hearts that we have this in this country.

Good start for day one.

Agree, a decent start. So far saying all the right things. Waiting to see make up of his cabinet to see how serious he is about change.


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[Hibs4185]

The deal with the Greens was the worst political decision ever.

The greens already supported independence and most of the SNP policies do a formal coalition was unnecessary.

Some sort of co-operation agreement would’ve been sufficient without offering them too much power and cabinet decisions.

A minority government with green support would’ve been far better for the country and I’m sure something similar going forward.

The only problem being, Lorna slater etc are far too used to their diesel powered ministerial cars and private ferries nowadays so may be tricky to deal with

[LaMotta]

Swinney considering a reduced ministerial team apparently. Interested to see who makes the cut and who is binned.....

[GlesgaeHibby]

Swinney considering a reduced ministerial team apparently. Interested to see who makes the cut and who is binned.....

Sounds promising. Would want to see a small team, focussed on governing competently across key issues - housing, NHS, drug deaths, education, child poverty, and infrastructure (need to crack on with A9, A96 dualing and look at expanding railways e.g. borders extension to Carlisle, new station at Haddington etc).

[Pretty Boy]

I had Tommy Shepherd at the door tonight handing out leaflets. He was very affable and took my grumbling in good spirits. All but said the SNP is just a vehicle for independence for him ('if we ever get there it will be a new left wing Labour party for me'). Spoke about his admiration for Robin Cook among others, shared his frustrations about Starmers Labour and indeed the current direction at the top of the SNP and said he's out early because he expects his seat to be very tight.

He was happy to chat for a good 10-15 minutes and came across well.

[Sylar]

Sounds promising. Would want to see a small team, focussed on governing competently across key issues - housing, NHS, drug deaths, education, child poverty, and infrastructure (need to crack on with A9, A96 dualing and look at expanding railways e.g. borders extension to Carlisle, new station at Haddington etc).

Where does net-zero/environment fit into your (his) reduced cabinet...?

It will rightly be something he's judged on given the media attention for their recent failures.

[Hibrandenburg]

I had Tommy Shepherd at the door tonight handing out leaflets. He was very affable and took my grumbling in good spirits. All but said the SNP is just a vehicle for independence for him ('if we ever get there it will be a new left wing Labour party for me'). Spoke about his admiration for Robin Cook among others, shared his frustrations about Starmers Labour and indeed the current direction at the top of the SNP and said he's out early because he expects his seat to be very tight.

He was happy to chat for a good 10-15 minutes and came across well.

I think a fair percentage of SNP supporters will be similar. I get where some might think that getting on with the day job means doing that what they were elected to do, gain independence.

[overdrive]

I had Tommy Shepherd at the door tonight handing out leaflets. He was very affable and took my grumbling in good spirits. All but said the SNP is just a vehicle for independence for him ('if we ever get there it will be a new left wing Labour party for me'). Spoke about his admiration for Robin Cook among others, shared his frustrations about Starmers Labour and indeed the current direction at the top of the SNP and said he's out early because he expects his seat to be very tight.

He was happy to chat for a good 10-15 minutes and came across well.

Had some interactions with Tommy Shepherd on Sunday. I'm part of Republic and involved in the local group, and we had organised an event for Republic Day on Princes St and then Holyrood. He came along to offer his support for the cause and offered to do a speech. I'm no fan of the SNP (or independence for that matter) but he seemed a really decent guy. He seemed to not be a fan of the way things work at Westminster either. I know he had other commitments that day but it was great that he gave some of his time to this.

Emma Roddick (the Equalities Minister) came along to the social bit of the day afterwards (think she also had other commitments) and it was interesting hearing some of the things she was saying too.

[Pretty Boy]

I received an email this morning informing me that my son's nursery will be closing on 31st July. A lot of the places at the nursery are subsidised by the council because of the area it is in. The nursery have been informed by the council that due to budget cuts said funding will be cut by 80%, even with a huge hike in parental fees it's just no longer viable so they are closing the doors. That's on top of the local library recently cutting it's hours significantly and a local youth group having their funding cut completely and announcing they will be closing at the end of the current school term.

I suppose that's the reality of ill thought out council tax freezes. You now have people on low incomes having their subsidised childcare pulled from under them and scrambling about trying to find spaces in the very limited alternative options. An extra £50 annually in your pocket thanks to the freeze but adding hundreds to your childcare bill doesn't really seem such a good deal does it? It's not a huge issue for me as my fees weren't subsidised anyway but it's a huge hit for those who can least afford it.

As I said way back when it was announced; a council tax freeze disproportionately impacts the worst off and is of most benefit to the already wealthy. The whole thing needs a radical overhaul.

[Ozyhibby]

I received an email this morning informing me that my son's nursery will be closing on 31st July. A lot of the places at the nursery are subsidised by the council because of the area it is in. The nursery have been informed by the council that due to budget cuts said funding will be cut by 80%, even with a huge hike in parental fees it's just no longer viable so they are closing the doors. That's on top of the local library recently cutting it's hours significantly and a local youth group having their funding cut completely and announcing they will be closing at the end of the current school term.

I suppose that's the reality of ill thought out council tax freezes. You now have people on low incomes having their subsidised childcare pulled from under them and scrambling about trying to find spaces in the very limited alternative options. An extra £50 annually in your pocket thanks to the freeze but adding hundreds to your childcare bill doesn't really seem such a good deal does it? It's not a huge issue for me as my fees weren't subsidised anyway but it's a huge hit for those who can least afford it.

As I said way back when it was announced; a council tax freeze disproportionately impacts the worst off and is of most benefit to the already wealthy. The whole thing needs a radical overhaul.

How come council tax is considered not progressive and also cutting it is also not progressive?
The SG replaced the money lost by the councils on the freeze and did it by taxing higher earners more in income tax.
Usually when people advocate getting rid of council tax because it’s not progressive they favour replacing it with Income tax?


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[Stairway 2 7]

How come council tax is considered not progressive and also cutting it is also not progressive?
The SG replaced the money lost by the councils on the freeze and did it by taxing higher earners more in income tax.
Usually when people advocate getting rid of council tax because it’s not progressive they favour replacing it with Income tax?


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It's not fully costed in real terms every council needs to chose its cuts and the ones that said they wanted to raise council tax were threatened by scot gov with being cut completely.


https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,scottish-budget-will-cause-cuts-in-every-community
Robison said the government was offering an additional £140m to councils to implement the freeze, the equivalent of a five per cent increase to the local tax.

But some had reportedly been considering an increase of up to ten per cent.

Cosla estimates councils are facing a revenue shortfall of £95m in 2024-25, not including the cost of a council tax freeze, and a capital shortfall of £99.5m.

It said fully funding the freeze could cost up to £300m, more than double what has been provided by ministers

[Pretty Boy]

How come council tax is considered not progressive and also cutting it is also not progressive?
The SG replaced the money lost by the councils on the freeze and did it by taxing higher earners more in income tax.
Usually when people advocate getting rid of council tax because it’s not progressive they favour replacing it with Income tax?


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That read suspiciously like trying to circumvent the realities of the situation when it comes to council funding.

Services are on their knees and completely underfunded and the additonal central funding comes nowhere close to meeting those needs because it's a bribe that was nowhere close to 'fully funded'.

[Ozyhibby]

That read suspiciously like trying to circumvent the realities of the situation when it comes to council funding.

I’m not. I think councils should be fully autonomous from the SG and think they should be responsible for raising their own funding as well, with whatever tax structure they see fit. The constant arguments with cosla are a waste of time politically and economically.


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[SteveHFC]

Forbes deputy first minister.

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes deputy first minister.

Good start. [emoji106]


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[grunt]

Forbes deputy first minister.Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

[Stairway 2 7]

Was obvious he would give her the gig to not stand. I think she would have won with members but not SNP msps in forming a government. Let's see how the greens take it hopefully it means an end to a formal coalition and they can go policy by policy.

[Stairway 2 7]

Great read from Robin Mcalpine about the final days of Yousaf, the much publicised deal he tried to do with Alba and Sturgeons interventions.

https://robinmcalpine.org/two-portraits-of-a-fall/

[marinello59]

Good start. [emoji106]


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The start was installing Swinney as yet another continuity candidate. The party before country manouveres we are seeing here doesn’t really qualify as a good start, the people responsible for the last twelve months of dysfunctional Government are still in charge.

[Sylar]

Good start. [emoji106]


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Genuine question: why? Sell her to me, as a political nomad and atheist.

[Keith_M]

As a first action, Swinney could do worse than reverse the ridiculous Council Tax freeze of his predecessor.

Personally I think that was a stupid decision, and I say that as someone that voted SNP in the last elections.

[Stairway 2 7]

As a first action, Swinney could do worse than reverse the ridiculous Council Tax freeze of his predecessor.

Personally I think that was a stupid decision, and I say that as someone that voted SNP in the last elections.

I'd doubt Sturgeon would let him do that she didn't let Humza?

[Stairway 2 7]

Genuine question: why? Sell her to me, as a political nomad and atheist.

Personally as someone that wants independence she brings a chance of independence. The current 5 years of culture wars mince has brought independence as far away as I can remember. Swinney won't change that to be fair we've probably 2 years a crap Scottish election then a rebuild.

There is probably 90% of yes or no voters that are not going to move. SNP has ignored the middle where that should have been the focus. Most of that middle say they will vote for Starmers Labour at the GE so that shows what kind of policy won.

After all these years of the tories and Starmer for the next 5 all I care about is getting independence, that should be the number 1st,2nd and 3rd focus. If going to the centre gets independence do it we will have a lifetime to make a fairer Scotland without the fear of the Westminster tories having any power over us

[Andy Bee]

Personally as someone that wants independence she brings a chance of independence. The current 5 years of culture wars mince has brought independence as far away as I can remember. Swinney won't change that to be fair we've probably 2 years a crap Scottish election then a rebuild.

There is probably 90% of yes or no voters that are not going to move. SNP has ignored the middle where that should have been the focus. Most of that middle say they will vote for Starmers Labour at the GE so that shows what kind of policy won.

After all these years of the tories and Starmer for the next 5 all I care about is getting independence, that should be the number 1st,2nd and 3rd focus. If going to the centre gets independence do it we will have a lifetime to make a fairer Scotland without the fear of the Westminster tories having any power over us


Completely agree, Swinney will now be in place until, at the very least, the Scottish elections. Those elections could of been used as a plebiscite at a push with, as Robin McCalpine mentions, every decision made correctly and on point. I reckon once a date is decided and a proper campaign is started there's mid 60's % for Independence if not more. That chance is gone now and we're looking at around 10 years. That'll be 10 years of theft and extraction of Scotland and its resources. Gawd I'm sounding like an Alba supporter now, this aint healthy.

[Stairway 2 7]

New cabinet announced no greens obviously. Lot of chatter as they have dropped having a minister for independence. Not a big deal I think they all should be pushing independence anyway

[Berwickhibby]

Not pop at the SNP but at the Greens, I thought Patrick Harvie’s attack on Kate Forbes was very disrespectful

[Ozyhibby]

Not pop at the SNP but at the Greens, I thought Patrick Harvie’s attack on Kate Forbes was very disrespectful

Let him crack on. It’s helping bring SNP back together.


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[hibee]

Not pop at the SNP but at the Greens, I thought Patrick Harvie’s attack on Kate Forbes was very disrespectful

It was embarrassing, Ross Greer has been at it too.

I’m absolutely sick of people behaving like this just because you don’t agree with them. This current Green Party are all just weird people who shouldn’t be anywhere near a government.

[Berwickhibby]

It was embarrassing, Ross Greer has been at it too.

I’m absolutely sick of people behaving like this just because you don’t agree with them. This current Green Party are all just weird people who shouldn’t be anywhere near a government.

Ross Greer is an odious individual with puss I would not get tired punching 🤣🤣🤣

[Hiber-nation]

Ross Greer is an odious individual with puss I would not get tired punching ������

And Harvie is the definition of a wee sh*te.

[Paul1642]

It was embarrassing, Ross Greer has been at it too.

I’m absolutely sick of people behaving like this just because you don’t agree with them. This current Green Party are all just weird people who shouldn’t be anywhere near a government.

I’ve said this too. I wish the current greens could be forced to relinquish the name so we could have an actual Green Party who focused on pro environmental polices without being complete nut cases instead of these culture war students who never grew up.

[marinello59]

It was embarrassing, Ross Greer has been at it too.

I’m absolutely sick of people behaving like this just because you don’t agree with them. This current Green Party are all just weird people who shouldn’t be anywhere near a government.

Yet it took nearly three years for our Government to recognise that.

[Moulin Yarns]

It was embarrassing, Ross Greer has been at it too.

I’m absolutely sick of people behaving like this just because you don’t agree with them. This current Green Party are all just weird people who shouldn’t be anywhere near a government.

Don't tar every green with the same brush. I have Mark Ruskell as a regional MSP, met him a few times and I doubt if he has any extreme views.

[marinello59]

Don't tar every green with the same brush. I have Mark Ruskell as a regional MSP, met him a few times and I doubt if he has any extreme views.

Thought you were a Green Party member?

[Moulin Yarns]

Thought you were a Green Party member?

Have been in the past. Met Mark Ruskell while out campaigning for the Greens in Dunkeld and pitlochry in Perthshire North. Good guy but less enamoured with the way of campaigning by the local branch, choosing to knock doors in areas I don't think that would be typical green voters. But that's a different story.

My point remains, not every green MSP or councillor shares the opinion of Harvey, slater or Greer.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinney-says-gender-reform-32777370

A welcome change in direction from Swinney. Making it clear early on that all talk of gender reform is off the table. I doubt it will be back until people are willing to be more grown up about it and that could be a very long time.


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinney-says-gender-reform-32777370

A welcome change in direction from Swinney. Making it clear early on that all talk of gender reform is off the table. I doubt it will be back until people are willing to be more grown up about it and that could be a very long time.


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As I said in my post on another thread, it will be back once society has come to a consensus. Politicians don't decide these things, society does. All politicians do is pass legislation once there is no political downside to doing so.

[Ozyhibby]

As I said in my post on another thread, it will be back once society has come to a consensus. Politicians don't decide these things, society does. All politicians do is pass legislation once there is no political downside to doing so.

Agree.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinney-says-gender-reform-32777370

A welcome change in direction from Swinney. Making it clear early on that all talk of gender reform is off the table. I doubt it will be back until people are willing to be more grown up about it and that could be a very long time.


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I agree …grown up conversation ..not children

[grunt]

Good advert!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GNLMPquWMAADgjO?format=jpg&name=medium

[lapsedhibee]

Good advert!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GNLMPquWMAADgjO?format=jpg&name=medium

Who on earth is that ad aimed at? Tory voters who were thinking of switching to SNP but won't, now that they know what the SNP stands for? :confused:

[marinello59]

Whoops, I thought that was an SNP produced ad. Geez… all our major parties have lost the plot right now.

[Stairway 2 7]

Who on earth is that ad aimed at? Tory voters who were thinking of switching to SNP but won't, now that they know what the SNP stands for? :confused:

Tory voters aren't switching same as half of snp voters. As the polls have showed the voters that were previously going to vote SNP are all saying they are going to vote for Starmer’s Labour and its a huge number. I think most were lost on the direction SNP were going.

In all the polls yes voters is a much bigger figure than SNP voters. This shows the yes voters who are indicating they will vote Labour that the SNP are changing path, very clever imo

[Stairway 2 7]

As I said in my post on another thread, it will be back once society has come to a consensus. Politicians don't decide these things, society does. All politicians do is pass legislation once there is no political downside to doing so.

I disagree there is no comparison to the gay rights battle. Trans have all the same rights that were won in hard fought battles, marriage, adoption, prosecution against those who offend you. The difference is although society is happy to give trans every right they want they say that must not come at the price of hard fought female rights, its a no sum game.

We'd love trans women to be able to go to any area they want unfortunately that would mean women have to share prisons, rape centres ect with biological males. Unfortunately whilst males commit almost all sexual crimes then tough we must have access to female spaces. It pretty much took down Sturgeon I'm sure there focus groups will be telling them don't be so ridiculous again. The passage of time won't change biology I'm afraid

[CropleyWasGod]

I disagree there is no comparison to the gay rights battle. Trans have all the same rights that were won in hard fought battles, marriage, adoption, prosecution against those who offend you. The difference is although society is happy to give trans every right they want they say that must not come at the price of hard fought female rights, its a no sum game.

We'd love trans women to be able to go to any area they want unfortunately that would mean women have to share prisons, rape centres ect with biological males. Unfortunately whilst males commit almost all sexual crimes then tough we must have access to female spaces. It pretty much took down Sturgeon I'm sure there focus groups will be telling them don't be so ridiculous again. The passage of time won't change biology I'm afraid

.... to be revisited in a generation's time. :greengrin

[grunt]

In all the polls yes voters is a much bigger figure than SNP voters. This shows the yes voters who are indicating they will vote Labour that the SNP are changing path, very clever imo
I don't get it. :confused: You do realise it's an ad for the Tories ...?

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't get it. :confused: You do realise it's an ad for the Tories ...?

Ha no didn't notice the bottom right but I hope they keep running it it's spot on, it didn't compute that they would run it. I've never got Ross's attack that Humza or whoever is constantly caring about separatism, isn't that the point. Bizarre if a tory advert who are they aiming at

[Stairway 2 7]

.... to be revisited in a generation's time. :greengrin

Darwin says longer than that

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1788916501358973025?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This thread could apply to coverage of the SG by the Scottish media.
Ask a Scottish parent what their school is like and they will say it’s great. Ask them about education and they will say it’s terrible.
Health service is the same. My son cut his hand on Tuesday night and severed a tendon. Went to the hospital, got him all patched up within two hours and was sent home with an appointment for 8am the next day for an operation to fix him properly. Service was outstanding from beginning to end. He was home by mid afternoon and it booked in for physio for next couple of months.
Read the media though and it’s a terrible service.


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[grunt]

Service was outstanding from beginning to end.
Good to hear it. Hope the lad's hand heals quickly.

[lapsedhibee]

https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1788916501358973025?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This thread could apply to coverage of the SG by the Scottish media.
Ask a Scottish parent what their school is like and they will say it’s great. Ask them about education and they will say it’s terrible.
Health service is the same. My son cut his hand on Tuesday night and severed a tendon. Went to the hospital, got him all patched up within two hours and was sent home with an appointment for 8am the next day for an operation to fix him properly. Service was outstanding from beginning to end. He was home by mid afternoon and it booked in for physio for next couple of months.
Read the media though and it’s a terrible service.


Think I've occasionally heard similar about Scottish education and health on UK media as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1788916501358973025?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This thread could apply to coverage of the SG by the Scottish media.
Ask a Scottish parent what their school is like and they will say it’s great. Ask them about education and they will say it’s terrible.
Health service is the same. My son cut his hand on Tuesday night and severed a tendon. Went to the hospital, got him all patched up within two hours and was sent home with an appointment for 8am the next day for an operation to fix him properly. Service was outstanding from beginning to end. He was home by mid afternoon and it booked in for physio for next couple of months.
Read the media though and it’s a terrible service.


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Hope he's alright. I adore the NHS the only problem for me is waiting lists for some things for my kids but they are down to covid not the government.

An aside but what a great thread again by JBM apart from here I rarely see him spoken about and it's a shame as he's fast becoming a national treasure imo. He destroys poor policy and government decisions for example in clear detail through graphs and data. He's got fantastic threads on twitter almost every time, he should compile it into a book

[Stairway 2 7]

Think I've occasionally heard similar about Scottish education and health on UK media as well.

I don't think they have a leg to stand on when talking about health but our education has went from being in front to a year behind England on average, thanks in no small part to Swinney. Free education obviously counters that a bit but we need to ditch curriculum for excellence and match England soon

[J-C]

Being a cabbie, I do a lot of work from both hospitals and the punters I pick up have nothing but good things to say about the service.

My wife had a large ovarian cystic mass removed last year, from seeing the doctor, getting CT scans, meeting the surgeon it was all done in 12 weeks, we can't say enough good things about the service, still brilliant.

[grunt]

I don't think they have a leg to stand on when talking about health but our education has went from being in front to a year behind England on average, thanks in no small part to Swinney. Free education obviously counters that a bit but we need to ditch curriculum for excellence and match England soon
Here you are parroting another unionist attack on Scotland. Is it true? I have no idea, but my experience of the local schools has been nothing other than positive.

[Ozyhibby]

Hope he's alright. I adore the NHS the only problem for me is waiting lists for some things for my kids but they are down to covid not the government.

An aside but what a great thread again by JBM apart from here I rarely see him spoken about and it's a shame as he's fast becoming a national treasure imo. He destroys poor policy and government decisions for example in clear detail through graphs and data. He's got fantastic threads on twitter almost every time, he should compile it into a book

Him and Ed Conway are a cut above.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Here you are parroting another unionist attack on Scotland. Is it true? I have no idea, but my experience of the local schools has been nothing other than positive.

Why go with the first sentence before checking. PISA tests are a world standard. Scotland was ahead of England we went for the everyone is a winner curriculum for excellence and our education plummeted, just like everyone in the sector said it would. Swinney championed it and then said he'd investigate the collapse did nothing ****** up the highers got a vote of no confidence, then we fell further. I don't think anyone could dispute Swinney was the worse person in charge of the education brief in UK history?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/when-it-comes-to-education-scotland-is-an-example-of-what-not-to-do/

[lapsedhibee]

Why go with the first sentence before checking. PISA tests are a world standard. Scotland was ahead of England we went for the everyone is a winner curriculum for excellence and our education plummeted, just like everyone in the sector said it would. Swinney championed it and then said he'd investigate the collapse did nothing ****** up the highers got a vote of no confidence, then we fell further. I don't think anyone could dispute Swinney was the worse person in charge of the education brief in UK history?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/when-it-comes-to-education-scotland-is-an-example-of-what-not-to-do/

Devolved country decides not to prioritise PISA results above all else in the education of its young people.

Devolved country subsequently does not come top of a PISA league table.

Shock.

And proof that devolution does not work.

England has spent less on education and has come top of these tables. England and the UK are brilliant.