SNP are lying b******s as well !

[xyz23jc]

Obviously not Staunch SNP :greengrin

Staunch Labour, Has a certain ring to it, eh? :wink::greengrin

[archie]

For the same reasons they've already blocked several other devolved matters already. Got to remind Scots of their place.

But it appears to be the SNP blocking it?

[Mibbes Aye]

Staunch Labour, Has a certain ring to it, eh? :wink::greengrin

I don't think Anas Sarwar owns a bowler hat

(frantically searches Google Images to make sure thats correct).

[marinello59]

The SNP 2007 manifesto pledge to fully dual the A9 looks to have been a wee bit of a porker. Originally scheduled to be completed by 2025 we are now looking at it being completed by 2050….maybe. Road deaths increase and the Highland economy continues to pay the price for sub standard transport links. Still we have eleven completed miles to be grateful for. Anybody trust Yousaf when he says completing this is a priority?

[degenerated]

The SNP 2007 manifesto pledge to fully dual the A9 looks to have been a wee bit of a porker. Originally scheduled to be completed by 2025 we are now looking at it being completed by 2050….maybe. Road deaths increase and the Highland economy continues to pay the price for sub standard transport links. Still we have eleven completed miles to be grateful for. Anybody trust Yousaf when he says completing this is a priority?There was a significant event in 2008 which significantly impacted spend on infrastructure and capital projects. I remember it all too well, the construction industry was decimated as a result of the crash. Bleak times indeed.

[greenginger]

The
There was a significant event in 2008 which significantly impacted spend on infrastructure and capital projects. I remember it all too well, the construction industry was decimated as a result of the crash. Bleak times indeed.


It didn’t stop the Scottish Government ringing Glasgow with a whole set of new motorways.

M8, M73, M74, M77, M80 have all been constructed, extended or improved.

Its all about choices and preferences and the A9 was obviously not one of them.

[Moulin Yarns]

The


It didn’t stop the Scottish Government ringing Glasgow with a whole set of new motorways.

M8, M73, M74, M77, M80 have all been constructed, extended or improved.

Its all about choices and preferences and the A9 was obviously not one of them.

A quick question, when were the motorways you mentioned first suggested and by whom?

I've been involved in the planning stage of the sections of the A9 and know that there are lengthy processes before a shovel even touches the ground.

[degenerated]

The


It didn’t stop the Scottish Government ringing Glasgow with a whole set of new motorways.

M8, M73, M74, M77, M80 have all been constructed, extended or improved.

Its all about choices and preferences and the A9 was obviously not one of them.That's true, but it was planned in 1995, funding secured and commenced prior to 2008 crash. Perhaps we should be asking Westminster or the labour Scottish executive why they deemed it more important to do that rather than A9. The SNP only came to power in 2007.

I would suggest that you would have made a better point if you brought up the Aberdeen ring road as an example though :greengrin

[greenginger]

That's true, but it was planned in 1995, funding secured and commenced prior to 2008 crash. Perhaps we should be asking Westminster or the labour Scottish executive why they deemed it more important to do that rather than A9. The SNP only came to power in 2007.

I would suggest that you would have made a better point if you brought up the Aberdeen ring road as an example though :greengrin

There was no impediment to the SNP Government from 2007 making changes to previous governments plans.

Various projects which were on the drawing board in 2007 could have been delayed or scrapped and the funding transferred to the A9 dealing.

But that wasn’t the choice that was made.

[degenerated]

There was no impediment to the SNP Government from 2007 making changes to previous governments plans.

Various projects which were on the drawing board in 2007 could have been delayed or scrapped and the funding transferred to the A9 dealing.

But that wasn’t the choice that was made.
There was no impediment to the unionist governments choosing to do the A9 instead of Glasgow roads or the M25, or any other projects but they chose not to.

The Scottish government post 2007 could have scrapped those changes and then begun consultation/planning on A9 which probably would have seen a start date of around the late 2010s. But then the recession happened and it would have been shelved.

[marinello59]

There was a significant event in 2008 which significantly impacted spend on infrastructure and capital projects. I remember it all too well, the construction industry was decimated as a result of the crash. Bleak times indeed.

How would that have had an impact? The project would have been nowhere near the stage of breaking any ground.

[degenerated]

How would that have had an impact? The project would have been nowhere near the stage of breaking any ground.There are plenty costs before a project hits the ground.

[greenginger]

There was no impediment to the unionist governments choosing to do the A9 instead of Glasgow roads or the M25, or any other projects but they chose not to.

The Scottish government post 2007 could have scrapped those changes and then begun consultation/planning on A9 which probably would have seen a start date of around the late 2010s. But then the recession happened and it would have been shelved.

I don’t think any other political party or government except the SNP made a pledge to carry out major improvements to the A9.

The SNP did , but failed to deliver because they made other choices and had other priorities.

[JimBHibees]

I don't think Anas Sarwar owns a bowler hat

(frantically searches Google Images to make sure thats correct).

Bound to have a UJ waistcoat though. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

I don’t think any other political party or government except the SNP made a pledge to carry out major improvements to the A9.

The SNP did , but failed to deliver because they made other choices and had other priorities.

A9 has been significantly improved hasn't it.

[degenerated]

I don’t think any other political party or government except the SNP made a pledge to carry out major improvements to the A9.

The SNP did , but failed to deliver because they made other choices and had other priorities.It's not a issue that no one else bothered to do something that needed done but it's a huge issue that the SNP said they would do it but have struggled to get anyone to price it within budget to complete it.

I think I understand.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The SNP did , but failed to deliver because they made other choices and had other priorities.

Other priorities such as mitigating austerity policies from Westminster. Policies that were never necessary in the first place and were purely a political choice by a party that is all about stealing from the poor and giving to the already obscenely wealthy.

[He's here!]

The SNP 2007 manifesto pledge to fully dual the A9 looks to have been a wee bit of a porker. Originally scheduled to be completed by 2025 we are now looking at it being completed by 2050….maybe. Road deaths increase and the Highland economy continues to pay the price for sub standard transport links. Still we have eleven completed miles to be grateful for. Anybody trust Yousaf when he says completing this is a priority?

'Years of warning' over A9 dualling timescale - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65891110)

As you say, it's been a 'priority' since years before Yousaf got landed with it (among numerous other failed initiatives). It's ferries-esque in terms of progress.

[JimBHibees]

'Years of warning' over A9 dualling timescale - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65891110)

As you say, it's been a 'priority' since years before Yousaf got landed with it (among numerous other failed initiatives). It's ferries-esque in terms of progress.

:greengrin Relentless

[Jack]

I don't think Anas Sarwar owns a bowler hat

(frantically searches Google Images to make sure thats correct).

I'm sure he'll have had an honorary bowler hat and sash presented to him by one of the Lodges that have infiltrated the Labour Party at a local level.

I recall there was a media investigation some time ago (can't remember if it was TV or a newspaper). They uncovered a plan by the ultra unionist OO to become councillors as part of their strategy to fight the SNP and independence movement.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm sure he'll have had an honorary bowler hat and sash presented to him by one of the Lodges that have infiltrated the Labour Party at a local level.

I recall there was a media investigation some time ago (can't remember if it was TV or a newspaper). They uncovered a plan by the ultra unionist OO to become councillors as part of their strategy to fight the SNP and independence movement.
Former Orange Order leader Henry Dunbar elected as Scottish Labour councillor: https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/national/scotland-today/20121238.former-orange-order-leader-henry-dunbar-elected-scottish-labour-councillor/

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/national/scotland-today/20121238.former-orange-order-leader-henry-dunbar-elected-scottish-labour-councillor/
"He was a prominent pro-Union figure in the independence referendum, helping to organise the biggest No event of 2014, when 15,000 orange men and women marched through Edinburgh the weekend before the vote."

The biggest no event in 2014 was 15,000 Catholic hating bigots with their flute and drums. Admittedly I didn't know this. But somehow I'm not in the least bit surprised.

[marinello59]

Other priorities such as mitigating austerity policies from Westminster. Policies that were never necessary in the first place and were purely a political choice by a party that is all about stealing from the poor and giving to the already obscenely wealthy.

I just need to see Covid used as an excuse now and I’m shouting Bingo! :greengrin

[degenerated]

'Years of warning' over A9 dualling timescale - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65891110)

As you say, it's been a 'priority' since years before Yousaf got landed with it (among numerous other failed initiatives). It's ferries-esque in terms of progress.Been a priority since years before devolution

[He's here!]

Been a priority since years before devolution

It was the SNP who committed to the date though.

[archie]

Former Orange Order leader Henry Dunbar elected as Scottish Labour councillor: https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/national/scotland-today/20121238.former-orange-order-leader-henry-dunbar-elected-scottish-labour-councillor/

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/national/scotland-today/20121238.former-orange-order-leader-henry-dunbar-elected-scottish-labour-councillor/
"He was a prominent pro-Union figure in the independence referendum, helping to organise the biggest No event of 2014, when 15,000 orange men and women marched through Edinburgh the weekend before the vote."

The biggest no event in 2014 was 15,000 Catholic hating bigots with their flute and drums. Admittedly I didn't know this. But somehow I'm not in the least bit surprised.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20011732.snp-urged-sack-candidate-shouted-abuse-pope/

Don't mention the papal visit in the 80s!

[Kato]

So she protests against the pope due to historic child abuse and the other hates kafflicks.

Is there equivalence there?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So she protests against the pope due to historic child abuse and the other hates kafflicks.

Is there equivalence there?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Nope. She made the comments on social media back in 2010, 12 years before standing as an SNP councillor. It's easy mud for the opposition to dig up and try to spin into her just hating Catholic people in general. I suppose they view it as some kind of justification for having an entire organisation built on historical hatred towards anybody Catholic on their side.

[Kato]

Nope. She made the comments on social media back in 2010, 12 years before standing as an SNP councillor. It's easy mud for the opposition to dig up and try to spin into her just hating Catholic people in general. I suppose they view it as some kind of justification for having an entire organisation built on historical hatred towards anybody Catholic on their side.I suppose so.

What do you think, archie?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Ferries 'value for money' study cost £620,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65938165)

...and then the SG ignore the findings.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ferries 'value for money' study cost £620,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65938165)

...and then the SG ignore the findings.

"The Scottish Conservatives accused ministers of wasting public funds."

Just wait until they find out about the Ajax Programme fiasco. Then they can really get angry about the wasting of public funds.

[He's here!]

"The Scottish Conservatives accused ministers of wasting public funds."

Just wait until they find out about the Ajax Programme fiasco. Then they can really get angry about the wasting of public funds.

Yes as long as there's a way to deflect the criticism elsewhere the SG remains forever beyond reproach.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Yes as long as there's a way to deflect the criticism elsewhere the SG remains forever beyond reproach.

What deflected criticism? All of the British media criticism is on the Scottish Government and ferries. It's all very quiet on the Ajax, HS2 and dodgy/unusable PPE front. Perhaps you mean deflected criticism towards the Scottish Government?

[grunt]

Ferries 'value for money' study cost £620,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65938165)

...and then the SG ignore the findings.Just a matter of time before they link this with the SNP finance scandal.

[Skol]

What deflected criticism? All of the British media criticism is on the Scottish Government and ferries. It's all very quiet on the Ajax, HS2 and dodgy/unusable PPE front. Perhaps you mean deflected criticism towards the Scottish Government?

Hardly any British media mentions the ferries. There are no shortage of things for them to criticise the torrid about.

[Skol]

Torrid. Lol. Quite like that auto correct.

[Mibbes Aye]

What deflected criticism? All of the British media criticism is on the Scottish Government and ferries. It's all very quiet on the Ajax, HS2 and dodgy/unusable PPE front. Perhaps you mean deflected criticism towards the Scottish Government?

Just another example of two tired and failing governments, too busy obsessing with identity politics and culture wars, to actually focus on ensuring taxpayers’ money is being spent properly.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Hardly any British media mentions the ferries. There are no shortage of things for them to criticise the torrid about.

They've literally never stopped - https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APwXEdfuhVvXgviGgZRKwGoiEAMn-9z2AA:1687007595583&q=snp+ferries&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj-t6Dscr_AhUJhFwKHWVADIQQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=1366&bih=657&dpr=1

[Skol]

They've literally never stopped - https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APwXEdfuhVvXgviGgZRKwGoiEAMn-9z2AA:1687007595583&q=snp+ferries&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj-t6Dscr_AhUJhFwKHWVADIQQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=1366&bih=657&dpr=1

Mostly Scottish media

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Mostly Scottish media

And their excuse for not giving equal coverage over these Westminster scandals is what exactly? It effects us all the same.

[greenginger]

It's not a issue that no one else bothered to do something that needed done but it's a huge issue that the SNP said they would do it but have struggled to get anyone to price it within budget to complete it.

I think I understand.

Budgets ! When the hell did the SNP keep to budgets ?

I’ll just say one word - Ferries. :greengrin

[Since90+2]

Budgets ! When the hell did the SNP keep to budgets ?

I’ll just say one word - Ferries. :greengrin

When does any elected government stick to budgets.

[Skol]

And their excuse for not giving equal coverage over these Westminster scandals is what exactly? It effects us all the same.

You hold a very blinkered view of yhings

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You hold a very blinkered view of yhings

In what way are my views "blinkered"? Surely "blinkered" views would be views people echo from over 90%+ of the media who all push the same tired narrative and agenda?

[grunt]

When does any elected government stick to budgets.Or even bother to have one?


100 days since gov't introduced the Illegal Migration Bill, it has submitted no economic impact assessment. Home Secretary admits ***she doesn't even have an estimate*** of what it might cost. And this is ok, apparently, because it's one of Sunak and Braverman's priorities.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1668924465189666817?s=20

[Skol]

In what way are my views "blinkered"? Surely "blinkered" views would be views people echo from over 90%+ of the media who all push the same tired narrative and agenda?

You appear to me to be claiming over reporting of the ferries and under reporting of all of the Westminster mess. That’s just not a true representation.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You appear to me to be claiming over reporting of the ferries and under reporting of all of the Westminster mess. That’s just not a true representation.

It is. The media in Scotland have been on the topic of "ferries" for years now. While we're being robbed blind by far greater scandals that we almost never hear anything about.

[Skol]

It is. The media in Scotland have been on the topic of "ferries" for years now. While we're being robbed blind by far greater scandals that we almost never hear anything about.

Oh so not the British media as you said earlier?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Oh so not the British media as you said earlier?

That's not what I said. I said "media in Scotland". You're surely not suggesting that there is no British Media in Scotland?

[Skol]

What deflected criticism? All of the British media criticism is on the Scottish Government and ferries. It's all very quiet on the Ajax, HS2 and dodgy/unusable PPE front. Perhaps you mean deflected criticism towards the Scottish Government?

Says British here

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Says British here

Ok. So I suppose you think that the likes of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express aren't British, as long as they put "Scottish" in front of the name?

[Kato]

Ok. So I suppose you think that the likes of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express aren't British, as long as they put "Scottish" in front of the name?"North British"

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Skol]

Ok. So I suppose you think that the likes of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express aren't British, as long as they put "Scottish" in front of the name?

I think you have got in a bit of a mess here. You clearly said British media. You may have meant British media in Scotland but that’s not what you said. In saying what you did in my view gives a false impression.

Although the publications you mention are British it is rare for scottush stories to feature in their British editions. They focus on the uk. Sometimes Scottish stuff gets more prominent but mostly it’s not front and centre unless it’s their Scottish version

[marinello59]

The depressing thing thing here is that like the ferries the discussion about the failure to upgrade the A9 has no mention of the people affected whether by substandard road connections or seeing their loved ones lose their lives on what is a notoriously dangerous trunk road. And that’s a real shame. Politics should be about people, not protecting the politicians of all parties who constantly let us down.

[grunt]

The depressing thing thing here is that like the ferries the discussion about the failure to upgrade the A9 has no mention of the people affected whether by substandard road connections or seeing their loved ones lose their lives on what is a notoriously dangerous trunk road. And that’s a real shame. Politics should be about people, not protecting the politicians of all parties who constantly let us down.
I understand what you say and agree. But I do wonder how many of the A9 deaths are down to not driving to the road conditions. Every time I use that road I see a lot of stupid overtaking and risk taking. And I don't mean me.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think you have got in a bit of a mess here. You clearly said British media. You may have meant British media in Scotland but that’s not what you said. In saying what you did in my view gives a false impression.

Although the publications you mention are British it is rare for scottush stories to feature in their British editions. They focus on the uk. Sometimes Scottish stuff gets more prominent but mostly it’s not front and centre unless it’s their Scottish version

I was referring to a political party in Scotland, over a situation in Scotland. So I would have thought that it would have been very clear that I was referring to the British Media in Scotland and not across the UK as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for them to obsess over these issues in other parts of the UK, as it would have next to no impact on the electoral outcomes in Scotland. In saying that, the media in England are not nearly anywhere near as obsessive over the likes of HS2 or the Ajax debacle as their printed media in Scotland are over the ferries.

[Ozyhibby]

I was referring to a political party in Scotland, over a situation in Scotland. So I would have thought that it would have been very clear that I was referring to the British Media in Scotland and not across the UK as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for them to obsess over these issues in other parts of the UK, as it would have next to no impact on the electoral outcomes in Scotland. In saying that, the media in England are not nearly anywhere near as obsessive over the likes of HS2 or the Ajax debacle as their printed media in Scotland are over the ferries.

A late over budget infrastructure contract is all they have to fill their schedule in Scotland. I suppose it’s a compliment to the SG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

Says British hereBritish media in Scotland

[marinello59]

I understand what you say and agree. But I do wonder how many of the A9 deaths are down to not driving to the road conditions. Every time I use that road I see a lot of stupid overtaking and risk taking. And I don't mean me.

That’s a separate discussion but having several short stretches of dual carriageway before merging back in to single lanes leads to frustration building up slowly but surely as drivers can’t get past slow moving vehicles. We could blame the drivers but we are all flawed human beings and sometimes we let logic go out of the window when reacting to situations. Dual the whole road and the risk taking is no longer an issue.

[marinello59]

A late over budget infrastructure contract is all they have to fill their schedule in Scotland. I suppose it’s a compliment to the SG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To be fair I think the events of the past few months suggests you are wrong here. They have had plenty to fill their schedules. :greengrin

[grunt]

That’s a separate discussion but having several short stretches of dual carriageway before merging back in to single lanes leads to frustration building up slowly but surely as drivers can’t get past slow moving vehicles. We could blame the drivers but we are all flawed human beings and sometimes we let logic go out of the window when reacting to situations. Dual the whole road and the risk taking is no longer an issue.
I do blame the drivers. If you "let logic go out of the window" you shouldn't be driving.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

To be fair I think the events of the past few months suggests you are wrong here. They have had plenty to fill their schedules. :greengrin

Yep. Demands that Nicola Sturgeon resigns from politics forever before an investigation has even been concluded. They truly are terrified of her, even as a mere MSP.

[marinello59]

I do blame the drivers. If you "let logic go out of the window" you shouldn't be driving.

Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.

[He's here!]

Just another example of two tired and failing governments, too busy obsessing with identity politics and culture wars, to actually focus on ensuring taxpayers’ money is being spent properly.

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

An "underwhelming record" in office that has still overseen the best performing public services across the whole of the UK over the past 16 years. But hey ho, they're doing it on purpose.

[degenerated]

Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.Finding someone to do it appears to be the challenge. The SG contracts on large scale civils and infrastructure works tend to try and mitigate risk to public purse by trying to pass any risk on to main contractor. Obviously from the point of view of the tax payer this is good but after projects like AWPR and Queensferry Crossing it has clearly had a negative impact on interest in tendering.

[Skol]

Finding someone to do it appears to be the challenge. The SG contracts on large scale civils and infrastructure works tend to try and mitigate risk to public purse by trying to pass any risk on to main contractor. Obviously from the point of view of the tax payer this is good but after projects like AWPR and Queensferry Crossing it has clearly had a negative impact on interest in tendering.

Learnt from the ferries mistake ;-)

[degenerated]

Actually, from the mess of the Edinburgh trams project

[grunt]

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.
Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

[cabbageandribs1875]

An "underwhelming record" in office that has still overseen the best performing public services across the whole of the UK over the past 16 years. But hey ho, they're doing it on purpose.


wasting yer time there :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?


it's bizarre :agree:

[grunt]

Oh I agree, the drivers taking risks are to blame. I don’t think that’s of much comfort to the innocent victims who get wiped out by drivers coming straight towards them after a dodgy over taking manoeuvre though. Dual the road and that can’t happen.
And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

[marinello59]

To be fair to the SNP, they've always been more of a campaign organisation than a party of government, so as long as the carrot of independence continues to be dangled in front of their more devout adherents their underwhelming record in office is of secondary importance.

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

Nicola Sturgeon was also doing a good job until Brexit came along and started doing the very damage that she warned people it would do.

[marinello59]

And you lay the blame for this at the feet of the Scottish Government? Ok.

That’s really not what I’ve done. Politicians of all parties are in agreement that duelling the road would save lives as well as delivering an economic boost to the areas served by it. I’m sure you would agree that’s a reasonable take on things. Which makes the failure to deliver on this all the more baffling.
Please don’t try and reduce my posts on this to a Daily Mail style headline suggesting Hundreds Die on SNP Highway to Hell. :greengrin

[Skol]

Are you for real? Or are you just posting stuff to annoy people?

It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It’s been said in here many times the snp are just the vehicle for independence and they will melt away once it’s been achieved. Or is that fake news?

It's been said that after independence, the SNP would cease to exist in it's current form and a new party or multiple parties would likely form as a result. But to call a party that has been in Government for 16 years, which has seen off 5 (soon to be 6) prime ministers more of a "campaign organisation" rather than a party of Government is just being silly.

[Skol]

The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The narrative is being changed again to suit. I have no recollection if you are one who has said it but many have been clear. You only vote snp to gain independence and not because of their competence in government.

You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

[Skol]

You only vote Conservative/Labour to prevent independence, not because of their competence in Government.

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

[marinello59]

I vote both to prevent independence and an snp government. 50/50 success rate only

I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me. :greengrin

[Skol]

Of course. It's clearly not for either parties excellent array of policies or anything useful they actually have to offer Scotland. It's merely to prevent your countries very normal and reasonable right to self determination.

The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The choices available to uk voters whatever the vote is for are pretty poor right now. Awful In fact. Which version of **** do you want.

**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

[Skol]

**** that we have full control and responsibility over. Rather than simply having it inflicted on us instead because another country thinks it knows what we want better than ourselves.

I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

[grunt]

I want independence but won’t be voting SNP again. 0/100 success rate for me. :greengrin
:confused:

[marinello59]

:confused:

Why are you confused?

[J-C]

Why are you confused?


Probably because there are only 3 parties offering independence, SNP, Alba and Greens with only really one of those who'll be in a position to offer it.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I do see the merit in the desire to be in control of our own destiny. I don’t like painting it as having another country inflicting their way on us and I don’t think that helps to sell the independence vision.

It may not be pleasant to hear or read. But it is the truth of the matter. Westminster is historically right-wing. You only have to look up the list of ruling parties all the way back to the early 18th century to see this. There has been very few occasions over 200 years where the UK had has a genuine left-wing alternative. We're now in the situation where the only alternative to the Conservative Party is a party that can only get into Government if it tries to out do the Conservative Party on the same side of the political spectrum. Both parties are trying to appeal to the same set of voters (predominantly in Southern England), while simply abandoning those who sit on the other end of that spectrum. Which is a real problem for Scotland, as we have a larger share of people who sit on the other end and the only representation they get is from a devolved parliament that is being constantly undermined by a Government at Westminster that doesn't line up with the overall values of this country.


I would like to see a better vision laid out and something that can explain to me why it will be better rather than just the emotional pull.

Ultimately any kind of vision that is put out (whether you like that vision or not), is meaningless. Because whatever the current party in Government in Scotland puts out as their ideological vision for an independent Scotland will undoubtedly change as the power balance at Holyrood changes in an independent Scotland. Different parties will bring different visions and the course will forever change. That's just the nature of politics in all countries.

[Skol]

I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

[Moulin Yarns]

I just need to see Covid used as an excuse now and I’m shouting Bingo! :greengrin

Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I get all that. Virtually everyone does. However it still doesn’t mean independence will improve our lot. It could make things worse. It’s that sort of transparency we lack.

I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.


If we gain independence the snp will form the first government. It’s incumbent on them to lay out what that first term will look like.

That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.


Marinello gets that and can see the faults in the snp strategy. It needs more of you to realise that before independence can move forward. Heck with some vision and leadership you might even get my vote.

I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

[Ozyhibby]

I've continuously came across this point, while things continue to get worse for Scotland as part of the UK anyway. I just wonder how bad it's going to need to get before enough people reach the point where it's just worth going for anyway. There's no guarantee that independence would improve our lot. But then again, economic growth isn't everything. Particularly when it's leaving a huge chunk of the population behind. The pie itself may get bigger, but if the slice that is occupied by the majority of people remains the same size or shrinks, then the overall growth is ultimately meaningless and only serves to benefit the most wealthy. A problem we've been witnessing for decades across the whole of the UK.



That's a fair point. But they may not be able to lay out what the first term is going to look like until negotiations are settled with Westminster. Negotiations that will only occur following an independence vote.



I don't think the SNP can really do anything more with their strategy. People want answers to questions that can't possibly be answered until a certain point in the process is reached. A process that can't even begin without an independence vote first being achieved.

It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


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[marinello59]

Work on the section between luncarty and Birnam was halted during covid.

Happy to oblige 👍😁

Woo hoo, finally I’m a winner. :greengrin

[Kato]

It’s not meant to get better for Scotland. When the whole argument is you can’t afford to be independent then there is no way they will want to change that.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

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[marinello59]

It's not meant to get better for anyone in the UK other than the 3% or so at the top, that is the pattern dictated by neo-liberalism and the manner it materialises itself here. Rich get richer and richer, everyone else gets the shavings and crumbs.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

[Kato]

You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.Yes I do realise that. I wouldn't vote for them post ind and am not committed to vote for them next election.

Extricating a country from that scam will be tricky and they canny get taking juice boatles back right.

Labour will apply a sticking plaster again and smile in the photos with the billionaires and the Tories will have Maggies take, "we won't let anyone starve", except they will.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

You do realise that the SNP won’t be making any significant shift away from neo-liberalism at all? It’s why I can’t vote for them.

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

[archie]

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.

So are you saying the SNP want to move away from neoliberalism? If so, how will they do this post independence?

[McD]

You do realize that they are in no position to do so under the current arrangement? Labour will be soon under Keir Starmer however, but we all know they'll be slamming their foot down on the neo-liberal accelerator.


the SNP could articulate how they would do this in a post independence world, which may sway more people to vote for them

[He's here!]

That’s a bit unfair. Salmond’s SNP administration did a pretty good job.

Yes, I'd concede that to a certain extent. He did, though, work hand in hand with the Tories to enact his flagship policies and get his budgets through. The divisive rhetoric which has defined the party ever since only got ramped up when the referendum campaign began and I thought he lost the plot in his TV debates with Darling which turned a number of voters against him.

[Paul1642]

Front page of the mail running with new fraudulent allegations

https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg/status/1670335076503113729?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA

[He's here!]

Front page of the mail running with new fraudulent allegations

https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg/status/1670335076503113729?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA


Michelle Thomson's clearly not taken kindly to Keith Brown claiming she stepped down voluntarily:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/FD40/production/_130123846_screenshot2023-06-17at22.09.10.png

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'd trust Keith Brown over somebody who scams terminally ill people tbh.

[archie]

I'd trust Keith Brown over somebody who scams terminally ill people tbh.

Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.

[archie]

I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.
Well you argued that the Parliamentary investigation and his admission weren't significant because the police hadn't been involved. It's so absurd I can see you want to distance yourself from it.

[grunt]

A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being.
Cf. Alex Salmond

[He's here!]

Why? You told me Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (despite apologinng) because there hadn't been a police investigation. Why does the same not apply to Michelle Thomson?

There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.

[He's here!]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/labour-set-get-more-seats-scotland-than-snp-sunday-times-poll-2023-06-17/

Latest polling shows Labour on course to win in Scotland at next general election.

[grunt]

There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.
Do you really want to talk about inconsistencies?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

There are certainly inconsistencies here. IIRC Thomson was never even under police investigation yet got suspended. The Murrells & Co have all been arrested as suspects in a criminal investigation yet for them it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.

She never got "suspended" because the SNP were in no legal position to suspend her. She voluntary stepped down because she knew a police investigation was on the horizon. An investigation that lasted 2 years. But even then, the SNP could not legally suspend her.

[archie]

She never got "suspended" because the SNP were in no legal position to suspend her. She voluntary stepped down because she knew a police investigation was on the horizon. An investigation that lasted 2 years. But even then, the SNP could not legally suspend her.

Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

[Berwickhibby]

Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:

[archie]

Why do you believe a con artist telling her story? She claims to have been "forced" out. But gives absolutely no details on the apparent methods used to "force" her out. This on top of the fact that she actively said at the time that she voluntarily stepped down. She's a liar, plain and simple.

You're a loyal foot soldier - I'll give you that.

[degenerated]

SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:It's not unique to the SNP and pretty small beer compared to the unionist parties. Tories lied and conned the tax payer out of billions with their dodgy dealings and last time around Labour lied and it ended up with a million dead Iraqis.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

SNP politician telling lies and is a con artist …shock horror :faf::faf::faf:

It's almost as if every party is prone to the odd rotten one every now and then. Well except of course for the Conservative Party which is the home for all things rotten in general.

[Berwickhibby]

It's almost as if every party is prone to the odd rotten one every now and then. Well except of course for the Conservative Party which is the home for all things rotten in general.

Yup Tartan Tories behaving like the real Tory’s lol 😂

[He's here!]

I never said she was guilty of anything in the eyes of the law. A person doesn't need to be guilty in the eyes of the law to be a thoroughly despicable human being. I also never said that Patrick Grady wasn't guilty of anything (just that it hadn't been proven in a court of law), so don't make things up.

'A thoroughly despicable human being'...quite the character assassination.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

'A thoroughly despicable human being'...quite the character assassination.

Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

[He's here!]

Again, your saying it didn't happen because there wasn't a legal power to do so. She is saying that she was forced to do it. Why won't you believe a woman telling her story?

Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

[He's here!]

Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

I'm not defending her. I don't know her. I just think she makes a valid point about the SNP criteria for suspension.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

Difference is. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't been found to have done anything wrong as of yet. Michelle Thompson scammed people to further her own business interests, this is a proven fact, even if she technically did so within the law.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not really surprised to see you defend a person of her "calibre" tbh.

Your so argumentative old bean, lighten up its hard to read the constant war in these posts again after the board got better, or don't I suppose

[J-C]

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.

[McD]

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.


you’re right about your last point, it is, although I have a feeling that the admins won’t just make it PMs only, they’ll just shut it down.


some civility for all please

[CropleyWasGod]

I can see this forum going back to being PM again, most of the debate is tit for tat and point scoring, getting all so very boring.

I would support that.

[Ozyhibby]

I would support that.

There was certainly more policy chat.


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[J-C]

There was certainly more policy chat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

[WhileTheChief..]

Depends which woman it is I suspect. Now that we live in an era where 'speaking your truth' is seemingly the equivalent of THE truth, I'm guessing Sturgeon being 'certain' she has done nothing wrong precludes the need for the police to conclude their investigation in the eyes of her devotees.

She could easily have said “I’ve done nothing wrong”.

This was a clever choice of words that left just enough wiggle room!

[Skol]

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

Have you noticed the title of the thread;-)

FWIW I would prefer some good discussion on here as well but it feels like anyone who questions anything on the independence side is immediately challenged and put down with little willingness to debate. Granted some on the other side as well do likewise. If you want the thread closed down so only people who share your view contribute then that’s fine but it doesn’t feel the right thing to me.

It would be great if we can move away from that and maybe even listen to and consider orders views and why we hold them. Some of us may even change our thinking.

[WhileTheChief..]

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

Quite the opposite.

Any posts that are even slightly critical of the SNP or Scots Gov is pounced on almost immediately. A lot of the time with a bit of a dig or needle directed at the poster.

Those against Indy rarely have digs at others.

[Hibbyradge]

She could easily have said “I’ve done nothing wrong”.

This was a clever choice of words that left just enough wiggle room!

That's nonsense. Wiggle room for what?

If she's done something wrong, her choice of words denying it will be irrelevant.

She's certain. i.e. absolutely sure.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1670470216633966592?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[silverhibee]

I would support that.

Me too.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's the same 3-4 anti SNP posters over every post.

It's both sides, I wouldn't read an echo chamber.

[archie]

It's both sides, I wouldn't read an echo chamber.

I agree. I don't think people should be rude and I think arguments should be well sourced and constructed. But surely having views challenged and debating the issues is the point?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

But surely having views challenged and debating the issues is the point?

I agree. But I have given reason to my stance on issues while being expected to accept alternative arguments that are not backed up with any reason. I don't want this sub forum to be shut down for what I believe to be completely nonsensical reasons. So I'm just going to quit posting on it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree. But I have given reason to my stance on issues while being expected to accept alternative arguments that are not backed up with any reason. I don't want this sub forum to be shut down for what I believe to be completely nonsensical reasons. So I'm just going to quit posting on it.

Stay on enjoy it and chill, we all need to. There's loads of opinions here, some completely different from my own, I wouldn't arrogantly say one is right or wrong. I've been proven wrong an incredible number of times on here ha, I actually enjoy it. There's no point pushing our views down others throats saying this is right, you are wrong

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65948190

Some good news. Nowhere near enough but better.


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[WhileTheChief..]

That's nonsense. Wiggle room for what?

If she's done something wrong, her choice of words denying it will be irrelevant.

She's certain. i.e. absolutely sure.

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

[Ozyhibby]

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

Certain didn’t used to mean doubt? This must be a new thing?


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[WeeRussell]

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

I must have had the definition of “certain” wrong all my life in that case.

[WeeRussell]

Have you noticed the title of the thread;-)

FWIW I would prefer some good discussion on here as well but it feels like anyone who questions anything on the independence side is immediately challenged and put down with little willingness to debate. Granted some on the other side as well do likewise. If you want the thread closed down so only people who share your view contribute then that’s fine but it doesn’t feel the right thing to me.

It would be great if we can move away from that and maybe even listen to and consider orders views and why we hold them. Some of us may even change our thinking.

I mean no offence when I say this, but you often hint that you’d be very open to changing your mind on independence and I struggle to believe you.

What sort of good discussion and willingness to debate do you expect in return from random one line posts of “oh what an oppressed nation we are” and telling people they’re blinkered in their views, and their posts are just standard SNP rubbish?

[Mibbes Aye]

Certain didn’t used to mean doubt? This must be a new thing?


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“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

[Since90+2]

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

😂.

Think you are seeing what you want to see with this one.

[WeeRussell]

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

Or she could be.. emm.. certain.

[Mibbes Aye]

😂.

Think you are seeing what you want to see with this one.

I’m seeing what she said and just wondering why she needed to preface it with “I’m certain...”

If she did nothing wrong, say “I did nothing wrong” and make it unambiguous. As we know, she is a lawyer and a former party leader - she knows the importance of how she words her utterances.

[Mibbes Aye]

Or she could be.. emm.. certain.

Which allows her to claim that if there was any wrongdoing, she didn’t know it was wrongdoing.

[J-C]

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

certain
adjective

UK

/ˈsɜː.tən/ US

/ˈsɝː.tən/

certain adjective (WITHOUT DOUBT)Add to word list

B1having no doubt (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/doubt) or knowing (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/knowing) exactly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exactly) that something is true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), or known (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/known) to be true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), correct (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/correct), exact (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exact), or effective (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/effective):

[Ozyhibby]

certain
adjective

UK

/ˈsɜː.tən/ US

/ˈsɝː.tən/

certain adjective (WITHOUT DOUBT)Add to word list

B1having no doubt (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/doubt) or knowing (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/knowing) exactly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exactly) that something is true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), or known (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/known) to be true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), correct (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/correct), exact (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exact), or effective (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/effective):






Sounds like a maybe to me.


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[Mibbes Aye]

certain
adjective

UK /ˈsɜː.tən/ US /ˈsɝː.tən/

certain adjective (WITHOUT DOUBT)

Add to word list

B1
having no doubt (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/doubt) or knowing (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/knowing) exactly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exactly) that something is true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), or known (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/known) to be true (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/true), correct (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/correct), exact (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/exact), or effective (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/effective):






If you are going to copy and paste Google searches, then have a look at gradable and ungradable adjectives and come back with some definitions for everyone else. It feels like she is using 'certain' as a gradable adjective.

Given she has chosen, as a lawyer and politician, to say "I am certain I did nothing wrong" rather than "I did nothing wrong" is peculiar. If you are asked if you did something wrong you say "No", or "I did nothing wrong", you rarely start with "I am certain", it is clumsy.

For what its worth, my humble speculation at this stage would be that she knows something wrong was done and she feels she is not culpable but can't be certain that it would be interpreted by others that way.

Of course, my suspicions may be unfounded. But for someone whose day job their entire life has been driven by the use of language, it seems a funny one.

And as I say, maybe she' just said it for laughs. Get tongues wagging, set hares running etc

[Glory Lurker]

Let's just see if she's charged, eh?

[Ozyhibby]

Let's just see if she's charged, eh?

I think they have to be now or the Police Scotland are going to look like they mounted a political operation.


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[grunt]

I think they have to be now or the Police Scotland are going to look like they mounted a political operation.

:rolleyes:

[WhileTheChief..]

I must have had the definition of “certain” wrong all my life in that case.

On a positive note, you can now use it in different ways :greengrin

I reckon most people have used it, or heard it used, in different ways. Same with a lot of words really.

Not many of us go strictly by dictionary definitions all the time.

[Skol]

I mean no offence when I say this, but you often hint that you’d be very open to changing your mind on independence and I struggle to believe you.

What sort of good discussion and willingness to debate do you expect in return from random one line posts of “oh what an oppressed nation we are” and telling people they’re blinkered in their views, and their posts are just standard SNP rubbish?

That’s a fair challenge.

My current position is that I don’t believe independence is the best for us going forward. However, my view is much less strong than it used to be. This is particularly so given the shambles the uk have become since the brexit vote.

I don’t like the approach of the snp and their many supporters who just do not accept any criticism. But who then a.so say they only vote to get independence and might not even support the snp now. There is much to be critical of.

There are a number of large and unanswered question to which the response is generally something about Westminster.
The one thing brexit old me is that breaking up a political union is not easy, despite what people say.

I have said a few times recently I have enjoyed reading a number of articles from robin mcalpine. He appears to me to share a very similar view of the snp to me and isn’t afraid to call it out. He does however still favour independence and if someone with his approach was in charge, and put some meat on the bones of independence I would listen. Would I change my mind. Who knows.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s a fair challenge.

My current position is that I don’t believe independence is the best for us going forward. However, my view is much less strong than it used to be. This is particularly so given the shambles the uk have become since the brexit vote.

I don’t like the approach of the snp and their many supporters who just do not accept any criticism. But who then a.so say they only vote to get independence and might not even support the snp now. There is much to be critical of.

There are a number of large and unanswered question to which the response is generally something about Westminster.
The one thing brexit old me is that breaking up a political union is not easy, despite what people say.

I have said a few times recently I have enjoyed reading a number of articles from robin mcalpine. He appears to me to share a very similar view of the snp to me and isn’t afraid to call it out. He does however still favour independence and if someone with his approach was in charge, and put some meat on the bones of independence I would listen. Would I change my mind. Who knows.

I’m happy to criticise the SNP thank you very much.


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[Ozyhibby]

That’s a fair challenge.

My current position is that I don’t believe independence is the best for us going forward. However, my view is much less strong than it used to be. This is particularly so given the shambles the uk have become since the brexit vote.

I don’t like the approach of the snp and their many supporters who just do not accept any criticism. But who then a.so say they only vote to get independence and might not even support the snp now. There is much to be critical of.

There are a number of large and unanswered question to which the response is generally something about Westminster.
The one thing brexit old me is that breaking up a political union is not easy, despite what people say.

I have said a few times recently I have enjoyed reading a number of articles from robin mcalpine. He appears to me to share a very similar view of the snp to me and isn’t afraid to call it out. He does however still favour independence and if someone with his approach was in charge, and put some meat on the bones of independence I would listen. Would I change my mind. Who knows.

The political union probably easy enough to break up. It’s the trading arrangements that’s the hard part.


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[Skol]

I’m happy to criticise the SNP thank you very much.


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Where do you wanna start:greengrin

[He's here!]

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀

I'd probably say 'I'm sure I switched the iron off' which I guess means the same thing.

You make an interesting point tho.

[Glory Lurker]

Maybe she's treating a criminal enquiry with the utmost of respect?

[Kato]

I’m happy to criticise the SNP thank you very much.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSeems like when you do, there's no point.

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[Kato]

I wonder what the police are waiting on. A two year investigation, searches of homes and arrests made months ago.

Is it the same rozzers who investigated the Hibs fans who put every Rangers player from the 2016 Cup Final in hospital on this job?

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[xyz23jc]

https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye https://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=7375640#post7375640)
“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit ��



I'd probably say 'I'm sure I switched the iron off' which I guess means the same thing.

You make an interesting point tho.
I'd probably say 'I'm sure I switched the iron off' which I guess means the same thing.

You make an interesting point tho.

Nah! As one of both your heroes once said, .....'I am not going to be distracted by froth and bubble . . .'

:cb:greengrin:giruy2:

[WeeRussell]

That’s a fair challenge.

My current position is that I don’t believe independence is the best for us going forward. However, my view is much less strong than it used to be. This is particularly so given the shambles the uk have become since the brexit vote.

I don’t like the approach of the snp and their many supporters who just do not accept any criticism. But who then a.so say they only vote to get independence and might not even support the snp now. There is much to be critical of.

There are a number of large and unanswered question to which the response is generally something about Westminster.
The one thing brexit old me is that breaking up a political union is not easy, despite what people say.

I have said a few times recently I have enjoyed reading a number of articles from robin mcalpine. He appears to me to share a very similar view of the snp to me and isn’t afraid to call it out. He does however still favour independence and if someone with his approach was in charge, and put some meat on the bones of independence I would listen. Would I change my mind. Who knows.

Cheers for the response 👍

[Hibbyradge]

Nah.

Saying "I did not do that", is different to saying, "I'm certain I did not do that".

Wiggle room!!

What does she need wiggle room for?

If she's guilty, she's finished. There's no wiggling to be done.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65960911?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=A8C7B082-0F53-11EE-9AD6-7FEAD772BE90&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link

She’ll probably survive but the numbers will be interesting.


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65960911?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=A8C7B082-0F53-11EE-9AD6-7FEAD772BE90&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link

She’ll probably survive but the numbers will be interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She won't be in any danger, but she should be. Yousaf must be privately wishing he could back the vote.

[Stairway 2 7]

I hope snp get a landslide in the next Scottish elections so the nutters in the greens can be cast adrift

[Ozyhibby]

I hope snp get a landslide in the next Scottish elections so the nutters in the greens can be cast adrift

I think it will happen before then.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1670507448174538753?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Welsh climate minister defends DRS and criticised the UK govt for stopping it. Wish Scottish Labour would have the guts to do the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

What does she need wiggle room for?

If she's guilty, she's finished. There's no wiggling to be done.

NS today ‘I have done nothing wrong’. Leaving herself lots of wiggle room there, clearly.


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[Smartie]

NS today ‘I have done nothing wrong’. Leaving herself lots of wiggle room there, clearly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those words suggest she's not certain, therefore I think she must be guilty as sin.

[Ozyhibby]

Those words suggest she's not certain, therefore I think she must be guilty as sin.

It’s a fair point. If she was certain, she would have said so. Guilty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

“I’m certain that was a penalty ”

“I’m certain I unplugged my straighteners”

“I’m certain he was in that film with whatshername”

“I’m certain the money was just resting in his account”.

Sturgeon was a lawyer. If she wanted to categorically say she has done nothing wrong she could have said so. Using the phrase “I’m certain’ qualifies her statement. She would know that, I’m certain…….

Of course she could just be saying it for the banter, stir the pot a little bit 😀


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65964729

Not just certain, but 'absolutely certain' now...

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65964729

Not just certain, but 'absolutely certain' now...

Well that confirms it. She clearly isn't sure enough and is leaving just enough wiggle room to backtrack later. Words like "absolutely" and "certain" can absolutely be backtracked on, most certainly.

[He's here!]

Well that confirms it. She clearly isn't sure enough and is leaving just enough wiggle room to backtrack later. Words like "absolutely" and "certain" can absolutely be backtracked on, most certainly.

I think Mibbes Aye is on to something, especially if she comes out tomorrow with 'I am absolutely certain beyond a shadow of doubt that I have done nothing wrong'.

Why not simply 'I have done nothing wrong'?

I guess lawyers often get accused of using too many words to get to the point so maybe it's no surprise. There does seem to be some wiggle room being created...though I can't be absolutely certain :wink:

[He's here!]

I think it will happen before then.


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Labour backing the motion of no confidence in Slater. Still won't be quite enough to see her off though.

She should be doing the right thing and stepping down herself.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think Mibbes Aye is on to something, especially if she comes out tomorrow with 'I am absolutely certain beyond a shadow of doubt that I have done nothing wrong'.

Why not simply 'I have done nothing wrong'?

I guess lawyers often get accused of using too many words to get to the point so maybe it's no surprise. There does seem to be some wiggle room being created...though I can't be absolutely certain :wink:

I just hope you've created enough wiggle room for yourself on here. :wink:

[grunt]

She should be doing the right thing and stepping down herself.
What has she done wrong?

[Ozyhibby]

What has she done wrong?

She’s a woman? American? Both? Who knows?
Next week Alistair Jack will cancel our right to run the NHS in Scotland and it will be Michael Matheson they want to sack.


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[Since90+2]

She’s a woman? American? Both? Who knows?
Next week Alistair Jack will cancel our right to run the NHS in Scotland and it will be Michael Matheson they want to sack.


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She's Canadian by birth.

[Ozyhibby]

She's Canadian by birth.

Even worse.[emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

She’s a woman? American? Both? Who knows?
Next week Alistair Jack will cancel our right to run the NHS in Scotland and it will be Michael Matheson they want to sack.


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I think Jack is probably quite happy with Slater in post, from a political point of view. It reminds people that the SNP dance to the Greens’ tune, even when that tune is a cacophony 😀

[WhileTheChief..]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65964729

Not just certain, but 'absolutely certain' now...

Fair play to NS here.

She should have said similar yesterday!

[Jack]

She’s a woman? American? Both? Who knows?
Next week Alistair Jack will cancel our right to run the NHS in Scotland and it will be Michael Matheson they want to sack.


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The coward Alistair Jack who didn't vote last night.

[Ozyhibby]

The coward Alistair Jack who didn't vote last night.

The very one. The one Anas Sarwar is too cowardly to call out. Welsh Labour are the only part of the party with any balls.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The very one. The one Anas Sarwar is too cowardly to call out. Welsh Labour are the only part of the party with any balls.


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Palpable nonsense. You clearly never watched Strictly Come Taxing

26901

[Just Alf]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1670507448174538753?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Welsh climate minister defends DRS and criticised the UK govt for stopping it. Wish Scottish Labour would have the guts to do the same.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI've been saying it all along... it has always been the 4 governments proceeding down the same path (as set out by Westminster!) with England having an opt out for glass.... which they almost instantly implemented.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/blairanderson35/status/1671160449583443973?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Spot on.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/blairanderson35/status/1671160449583443973?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Spot on.


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Lorna Slater isn't a credit to her family never mind our parliament. Everyone knows she's hopeless, it's playing politics saying different. The same people will say Maggie Chapman is decent

[Ozyhibby]

Ewing voted for the no confidence motion tonight. Yousaf needs to withdraw the whip tonight. Anything less is a sign of weakness.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/b645aec4a790afc7cea3afef798063b5.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

Lorna Slater isn't a credit to her family never mind our parliament. Everyone knows she's hopeless, it's playing politics saying different. The same people will say Maggie Chapman is decent

What has she done that’s hopeless? Bearing in mind I would be happy to end the agreement with the greens, so have no real desire to defend her. Nobody seems able to specifically tell me what she has done wrong?


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/blairanderson35/status/1671160449583443973?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Spot on.


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FMQs today? Where's the week gone? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I see Scottish Labour stood with the Tories again tonight. A merger can’t be far off?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What has she done that’s hopeless? Bearing in mind I would be happy to end the agreement with the greens, so have no real desire to defend her. Nobody seems able to specifically tell me what she has done wrong?


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I'm not sure if your serious. Literally every interview or discussion is as if she is on the spice. She's told irrefutable lies mistakes and nonsense.

[grunt]

What has she done that’s hopeless?


She's told irrefutable lies mistakes and nonsense.
There you go. Convinced?

[Stairway 2 7]

There you go. Convinced?

I'm away to bed in another time zone. I'll get back to you factchecker, although it belittles me to do so, as I know he follows scot pol and will have seen many instances she has made mistruths and **** ups. Google it if you can't wait until my morning

[grunt]

Google it if you can't wait until my morning
Not that interested, tbh.

Night night.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I see Scottish Labour stood with the Tories again tonight. A merger can’t be far off?


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Dame Baillie of Labstainer set out her stall several years ago


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347126860_3659489090940934_1906525765898206173_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=j8QBO0J69ZQAX8zDUuN&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAH4mKeCtiMDV6KMNI1pwESl58pBPXTqdA-FBwsb_2Hbg&oe=64938DBB

[Stairway 2 7]

Not that interested, tbh.

Night night.

Shouldn't have commented before then surely? Night hopefully wake up to a Scotland win

[grunt]

Shouldn't have commented before then surely? Night hopefully wake up to a Scotland winInterested enough to have a chat on here but not interested enough to go hunting Google for stories of someone lying or making mistakes or talking nonsense. You said she did all these things, I assumed you'd have the evidence to hand.

[archie]

Ewing voted for the no confidence motion tonight. Yousaf needs to withdraw the whip tonight. Anything less is a sign of weakness.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/b645aec4a790afc7cea3afef798063b5.jpg


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Which is exactly what the Tories were hoping for.

[He's here!]

Ewing voted for the no confidence motion tonight. Yousaf needs to withdraw the whip tonight. Anything less is a sign of weakness.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/b645aec4a790afc7cea3afef798063b5.jpg


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Credit to him for telling it like it is. If a few more of his party had done likewise they'd have found themselves in a better place ie without Slater in a position of influence.

I still think she'll step down (or rather be persuaded to).

[Skol]

What is the Westminster rationale for excluding glass? I haven’t gone looking for any rationale so not sure if it exists or not.

I have some doubts over the scheme as a while, but I cannot quite figure why it’s ok for plastic/cans but not glass.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the Westminster rationale for excluding glass? I haven’t gone looking for any rationale so not sure if it exists or not.

I have some doubts over the scheme as a while, but I cannot quite figure why it’s ok for plastic/cans but not glass.

I think the Tories got a big chunk of money from drinks companies a couple of weeks before they changed their minds and decided to veto Scotland’s scheme. Previously they were in favour of including glass.


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[Skol]

I think the Tories got a big chunk of money from drinks companies a couple of weeks before they changed their minds and decided to veto Scotland’s scheme. Previously they were in favour of including glass.


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Any evidence for your thought ?

[Just Alf]

I think the Tories got a big chunk of money from drinks companies a couple of weeks before they changed their minds and decided to veto Scotland’s scheme. Previously they were in favour of including glass.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhile I'm hacked off at the Tories upsetting the apple cart at the last moment, the agreement for "England" to not follow the overall agreement as set out by Westminster was in place 2018/19.

[Ozyhibby]

Any evidence for your thought ?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23565158.tories-took-20-000-donation-changing-position-glass-drs/


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[Skol]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23565158.tories-took-20-000-donation-changing-position-glass-drs/


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Took me a while to decide it that was a link I wanted to hit :greengrin

It does say the donation was after not before as you claimed. Albeit that’s semantics.

The risk of broken glass mentioned is plausible, but then again when I was on holiday I went to put my glass in a bin that had not long been emptied and I am pretty sure one of my bottles smashed as it was a big drop and hit a bottle in there already. That must be a risk with kerbside collections also.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interested enough to have a chat on here but not interested enough to go hunting Google for stories of someone lying or making mistakes or talking nonsense. You said she did all these things, I assumed you'd have the evidence to hand.

She said she didn't know the difference between the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government, as someone employed by it that's unreal.

She used incorrect statistics which she said was a mistake so she didn't get accused of misleading parliament. Remember she literally ran out of parliament when she was pulled up on it
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lorna-slater-facing-serious-questions-over-whether-she-misled-holyrood-around-false-wind-power-statistic-3921374

She said she was surprised how many had signed up to the scheme. The scheme last year said they expected 4000 odd companies to sign up, when she said it 600 or something had signed. She said on TV it was definitely going ahead on the agreed date, the same afternoon Humza confirmed it would be delayed.

At the committee hearing she looked through notes for the answer to a question, read wrong note then admitted she didn't know
https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1668554108318490624

The great ex green SNP says it well. They knew this would fail. People will lose there jobs over this and show should useless Slater

Andy Wightman
@andywightman
Serious question. ScotGov has known for years that an internal market exemption was needed. Why then did it proceed (with substantial cost for businesses) without this exemption in place? Should Gov not have secured exemption first before third parties incurred these costs

[Stairway 2 7]

Glass is interesting only 2 of the top 10 glass recyclers in Europe have DRS, the top 3 are kerbside pick up.

Pubs already recycle 100% so should be exempt, they have enough nightmares just now.

I'm pro DRS as it happens, just get it done competently

[marinello59]

What has she done that’s hopeless? Bearing in mind I would be happy to end the agreement with the greens, so have no real desire to defend her. Nobody seems able to specifically tell me what she has done wrong?


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Oz I respect you opinions whether I agree with them or not but do you really think she is doing a good job? Slater has to be the most incompetent minister serving in either Parliament right now and that’s pretty impressive given the competition she has. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Oz I respect you opinions whether I agree with them or not but do you really think she is doing a good job? Slater has to be the most incompetent minister serving in either Parliament right now and that’s pretty impressive given the competition she has. :greengrin

Would I have her there? No. The point I’m making is that we no longer know if the scheme would have failed or not. We can guess but that’s no good.
The scheme has been ended because the govt of England has pulled rank and said everyone else’s scheme must comply with our scheme even though we haven’t got one yet and we only recently decided not to include glass. We are the most important country in the union and you three countries must comply with us. This is the view of the Welsh Labour Party as well.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

It seems that whenever Westminster steps in and blocks things that are clearly devolved matters (something they'd never have gotten away with within the EU). It's the Scottish ministers who are to blame for being "incompetent".

We see you.

[Stairway 2 7]

It seems that whenever Westminster steps in and blocks things that are clearly devolved matters (something they'd never have gotten away with within the EU). It's the Scottish ministers who are to blame for being "incompetent".

We see you.

Rhubarb. Slater is hopeless, that shouldn't be deliberately grouped together with whether the scheme was legal.

[archie]

Glass is interesting only 2 of the top 10 glass recyclers in Europe have DRS, the top 3 are kerbside pick up.

Pubs already recycle 100% so should be exempt, they have enough nightmares just now.

I'm pro DRS as it happens, just get it done competently
One of the issues with glass is that it didn't cover all glass items - food jars for example. Where would they be recycled?

[Ozyhibby]

One of the issues with glass is that it didn't cover all glass items - food jars for example. Where would they be recycled?

Glass isn’t the only problem. We also had to make sure our deposit matched Englands deposit.


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[grunt]

She said she didn't know the difference between the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government
Sack her! :greengrin

[archie]

Sack her! :greengrin

Not commenting on the VONC, but do you really think an MSP not knowing that is funny?

[grunt]

It does say the donation was after not before as you claimed. Albeit that’s semantics.
"If you remove glass from the DRS we'll give you this money. But you need to do it before you see the money."

[He's here!]

She said she didn't know the difference between the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government, as someone employed by it that's unreal.

She used incorrect statistics which she said was a mistake so she didn't get accused of misleading parliament. Remember she literally ran out of parliament when she was pulled up on it
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lorna-slater-facing-serious-questions-over-whether-she-misled-holyrood-around-false-wind-power-statistic-3921374

She said she was surprised how many had signed up to the scheme. The scheme last year said they expected 4000 odd companies to sign up, when she said it 600 or something had signed. She said on TV it was definitely going ahead on the agreed date, the same afternoon Humza confirmed it would be delayed.

At the committee hearing she looked through notes for the answer to a question, read wrong note then admitted she didn't know
https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1668554108318490624

The great ex green SNP says it well. They knew this would fail. People will lose there jobs over this and show should useless Slater

Andy Wightman
@andywightman
Serious question. ScotGov has known for years that an internal market exemption was needed. Why then did it proceed (with substantial cost for businesses) without this exemption in place? Should Gov not have secured exemption first before third parties incurred these costs

That's the crux of it. Having known that the scheme was not compliant you can only assume the SG was banking on the the UK government having to intervene so that they could cite 'Westminster interference'. Either that or they are so incompetent that they simply failed to legislate it properly. Either way, the millions squandered and the jobs lost are on them. Yousaf should have acted decisively and sacked Slater if he wanted to have any hope of avoiding the legal action now coming his government's way from the affected firms who signed up this shambles.

[Ozyhibby]

That's the crux of it. Having known that the scheme was not compliant you can only assume the SG was banking on the the UK government having to intervene so that they could cite 'Westminster interference'. Either that or they are so incompetent that they simply failed to legislate it properly. Either way, the millions squandered and the jobs lost are on them. Yousaf should have acted decisively and sacked Slater if he wanted to have any hope of avoiding the legal action now coming his government's way from the affected firms who signed up this shambles.

It only became non compliant recently when the UK govt changed their mind. I think your just trolling now though because you know this, so I’ll end my engagement.


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[Hibbyradge]

It’s a fair point. If she was certain, she would have said so. Guilty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More to the point, she hasn't said what she hasn't done wrong. It's a cover up.

[grunt]

More to the point, she hasn't said what she hasn't done wrong. It's a cover up.
Good point.

[He's here!]

It only became non compliant recently when the UK govt changed their mind. I think your just trolling now though because you know this, so I’ll end my engagement.


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As Wightman points out, the SG have known for years (since 2020 in fact when, to cut Slater some slack, her equally incompetent predecessor Roseanna Cunningham turned a blind eye to concerns) that an internal market exemption would be required, while they've also known for over a year that the UK scheme was likely to exclude glass. It's botched legislation, which the SG have attempted to pin on Westminster

[Just Alf]

As Wightman points out, the SG have known for years (since 2020 in fact when, to cut Slater some slack, her equally incompetent predecessor Roseanna Cunningham turned a blind eye to concerns) that an internal market exemption would be required, while they've also known for over a year that the UK scheme was likely to exclude glass. It's botched legislation, which the SG have attempted to pin on WestminsterIt goes back further than that, Westminster set out the criteria during 2018 and even back then they decided that England was opting out of the glass element.

Westminster was always happy for there to be a difference and didn't have an issue with it. When the single market bill was put through opposition voices highlighted that it allowed Westminster to overrule devolved legislation.... and here we are. Over ruling something that the Scottish government has put in place as previously agreed by Westminster and voted through with all party support.

[Ozyhibby]

It goes back further than that, Westminster set out the criteria during 2018 and even back then they decided that England was opting out of the glass element.

Westminster was always happy for there to be a difference and didn't have an issue with it. When the single market bill was put through opposition voices highlighted that it allowed Westminster to overrule devolved legislation.... and here we are. Over ruling something that the Scottish government has put in place as previously agreed by Westminster and voted through with all party support.

And we also have to make sure we charge the same deposit as England. They haven’t set out what they are charging yet so we have to guess. Does that seem like a normal situation?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1671469334663770112?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Having a situation where the uk govt can over rule the SG on a whim is going to hurt investment in Scotland.


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[Skol]

"If you remove glass from the DRS we'll give you this money. But you need to do it before you see the money."

Is that a real quote or one you made up?

I am not saying it didn’t happen, but for such a decision to be made over £20k seems unlikely.

[Mibbes Aye]

So, after thirteen years of Conservative government, the best the SNP can come up with to fuel the fires for independence is glass bottles and what you do with them depending on whether you are in North Berwick or Berwick-on-Tweed?

And even that is being driven for them by a Green?

Was the missing £660,000 down to members asking for their money back, faulty goods delivered?

[Glory Lurker]

So, after thirteen years of Conservative government

Who's in power at UK level doesn't affect the need for independence.

[Mibbes Aye]

Who's in power at UK level doesn't affect the need for independence.

I said “to fuel the fire”.

[Ozyhibby]

I said “to fuel the fire”.

I just thought recycling would be the right the to do. Hey ho.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I just thought recycling would be the right the to do. Hey ho.


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So do the SNP. They have been recycling the same health and social care policy since they came into office, with a few tweaks, but it is still not working 😀

[grunt]

Is that a real quote or one you made up?:rolleyes:

[grunt]

So, after thirteen years of Conservative government, the best the SNP can come up with to fuel the fires for independence is glass bottles and what you do with them depending on whether you are in North Berwick or Berwick-on-Tweed?

More absurd than usual. And that's saying something.

[Mibbes Aye]

More absurd than usual. And that's saying something.

Aaawhhh! Are you “engaging” with me again :love ya!: :greengrin

What is absurd is that nearly ten years after the referendum, the Yessers haven’t moved the dial.

Despite Cameron and Osborne’s ideological war by austerity, despite May’s meltdown managing Brexit, despite Johnson’s venal dishonesty, despite Truss’s ‘psychotic toddlers let loose on government’ bad dream and despite Sunak’s flailing incompetence and lack of any spine.

I mean, I don’t want to write their strategy for them but not making better advantage of that must count as a bit of a ‘fail’? And it is not like you can say they were busy focusing on the day job, when that is performing so poorly?

[Hibrandenburg]

Aaawhhh! Are you “engaging” with me again :love ya!: :greengrin

What is absurd is that nearly ten years after the referendum, the Yessers haven’t moved the dial.

Despite Cameron and Osborne’s ideological war by austerity, despite May’s meltdown managing Brexit, despite Johnson’s venal dishonesty, despite Truss’s ‘psychotic toddlers let loose on government’ bad dream and despite Sunak’s flailing incompetence and lack of any spine.

I mean, I don’t want to write their strategy for them but not making better advantage of that must count as a bit of a ‘fail’? And it is not like you can say they were busy focusing on the day job, when that is performing so poorly?

Isn't it more absurd that the Noers haven't managed to move the dial by getting the Yessers on board by actually granting the Noers that what they vowed to do?

[JimBHibees]

Aaawhhh! Are you “engaging” with me again :love ya!: :greengrin

What is absurd is that nearly ten years after the referendum, the Yessers haven’t moved the dial.

Despite Cameron and Osborne’s ideological war by austerity, despite May’s meltdown managing Brexit, despite Johnson’s venal dishonesty, despite Truss’s ‘psychotic toddlers let loose on government’ bad dream and despite Sunak’s flailing incompetence and lack of any spine.

I mean, I don’t want to write their strategy for them but not making better advantage of that must count as a bit of a ‘fail’? And it is not like you can say they were busy focusing on the day job, when that is performing so poorly?

I think it is staggering that the yes vote has remained relatively solid given the media, establishment and other parties are so rabidly hostile about anything they do.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it is staggering that the yes vote has remained relatively solid given the media, establishment and other parties are so rabidly hostile about anything they do.

A good idea is hard to suppress.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

A good idea is hard to suppress.

We're dealing with experts here.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's the crux of it. Having known that the scheme was not compliant you can only assume the SG was banking on the the UK government having to intervene so that they could cite 'Westminster interference'. Either that or they are so incompetent that they simply failed to legislate it properly. Either way, the millions squandered and the jobs lost are on them. Yousaf should have acted decisively and sacked Slater if he wanted to have any hope of avoiding the legal action now coming his government's way from the affected firms who signed up this shambles.

DRS approved mid 2020, internal market bill approved end of 2020. The chicken came before the egg. How can you ask for an exemption from something that doesn't exist??

[Mibbes Aye]

I think it is staggering that the yes vote has remained relatively solid given the media, establishment and other parties are so rabidly hostile about anything they do.

All someone else's fault. Is that not the same old tune we have been hearing for the last ten years?

The Yes movement need to up their game. Big stage-managed arguments about Globe bottles won't achieve that.

[Smartie]

All someone else's fault. Is that not the same old tune we have been hearing for the last ten years?

The Yes movement need to up their game. Big stage-managed arguments about Globe bottles won't achieve that.

I don’t disagree with any part of this post.

Some deeply raw, painful economic hurt over the next couple of years as we all enjoy the full benefits of all the Tories, Brexit and the union have to bring to our lives will shift that dial imo, probably more than any positive case for independence could ever dream of doing.

[Skol]

DRS approved mid 2020, internal market bill approved end of 2020. The chicken came before the egg. How can you ask for an exemption from something that doesn't exist??

That’s true for the c6 month period. However from late 2020 onwards then an exemption should have been asked for. This was especially so when business were being asked to commit to the scheme and invest significantly.

[Since90+2]

I think it is staggering that the yes vote has remained relatively solid given the media, establishment and other parties are so rabidly hostile about anything they do.

Yip.

[JimBHibees]

All someone else's fault. Is that not the same old tune we have been hearing for the last ten years?

The Yes movement need to up their game. Big stage-managed arguments about Globe bottles won't achieve that.

Agree the yes movement needs to up its game however to suggest what I said re media establishment and other parties isn't a huge factor is totally disengenuous. Kind of similar to what Labour say down south re Tory media.

[Just Alf]

That’s true for the c6 month period. However from late 2020 onwards then an exemption should have been asked for. This was especially so when business were being asked to commit to the scheme and invest significantly.We were already in a single market when Westminster began the process and it was them that thought that it would work even if England opted out of Glass.

Those across the 4 countries actually working on the DRS schemes thought the new legislation wasn't an issue as they were still working to Westminster's 'spec'.

Central government didn't even raise it as an issue originally and only decided to invoke the single market legislation at a much later stage (around Christmas '22) , a letter was sent in requesting clarification... once a reply was finally received confirming the new Wesminter position the formal application process was kicked off.

Apparently it was late 2022 it became apparent to those involved the Westminster was so far behind in their DRS implementation plans that even NI with no effective devolved government would introduce one before them.
Obviously only a coincidence and fells like a classic case of the Tories not getting on with the 'day job' .