SNP are lying b******s as well !

[ronaldo7]

I never said it was law though did I?

I can search the internet for the video where she and Alex Salmond say it multiple times across multiple interviews but you get the picture.

Boris Johnson said he'd die in a ditch once. Still waiting.

[Just Alf]

Unionists said, multiple times in interviews etc that voting no was the only way to guarantee staying in the EU.... s'funny how some interviews seem to be more important than others.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18159096.fact-check-claim-snp-vowed-indyref-once-lifetime-opportunity/


I suppose it was a once in a generation opportunity to vote in a referendum in 2014. Now there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to vote in a referendum in 2023.🤔😁

[Berwickhibby]

Boris Johnson said he'd die in a ditch once. Still waiting.

Trouble with politicians…they never keep their word :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Trouble with politicians…they never keep their word :greengrinAin't that the truth! :greengrin

[James310]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18159096.fact-check-claim-snp-vowed-indyref-once-lifetime-opportunity/


I suppose it was a once in a generation opportunity to vote in a referendum in 2014. Now there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to vote in a referendum in 2023.🤔😁

A fact check in The National, seen it all now!

Is this where I go it's in the National, I don't believe a word etc.

[ronaldo7]

Trouble with politicians…they never keep their word :greengrin

😆

[Mon Dieu4]

I accept it's not in the Edinburgh agreement but let's not pretend it wasn't said multiple times and was referenced multiple times in the White Paper.

"If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?

The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence."

It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity."

"If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost."

"It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

Maybe people were naive to believe what was being said in the White Paper.

Depends on what you class as a generation, in the Good Friday agreement it's classed as 7 years

[Since90+2]

Depends on what you class as a generation, in the Good Friday agreement it's classed as 7 years

Why are we taking the words in the good Friday agreement as gospel on what a generation is?

I would imagine if you asked people outside of the independence debate what a generation was they'd say it was probably 20-25 years. I know if you'd asked me prior to the wording in the GFA agreement being constantly brought up I'd have probably said 20 years.

And I would hazard a guess that most people would be the same. If we take the definition on Wikipedia it is listed as:

A generation refers to all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively. It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about 20–⁠30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children."

[Mon Dieu4]

Why are we taking the words in the good Friday agreement as gospel on what a generation is?

I would imagine if you asked people outside of the independence debate what a generation was they'd say it was probably 20-25 years. I know if you'd asked me prior to the wording in the GFA agreement being constantly brought up I'd have probably said 20 years.

And I would hazard a guess that most people would be the same.

I'd imagine because it's an important legal framework that states a generation is 7 years

It doesn't even matter, everyone is well aware that Brexit was a fundamental change in the status quo and since the vast majority of the No campaign was based on voting No is the only way you will get to stay in Europe then that coupled with a few landslide elections for the Pro Independence parties means we should be able to have a referendum when we want

[Since90+2]

I'd imagine because it's an important legal framework that states a generation is 7 years

It doesn't even matter, everyone is well aware that Brexit was a fundamental change in the status quo and since the vast majority of the No campaign was based on voting No is the only way you will get to stay in Europe then that coupled with a few landslide elections for the Pro Independence parties means we should be able to have a referendum when we want

I agree on Brexit being a fundamental change, I just think folk continually saying a generation is 7 years clearly isn't right and in any other context or conversation people would generally say it's 20 years minimum.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree on Brexit being a fundamental change, I just think folk continually saying a generation is 7 years clearly isn't right and in any other context or conversation people would generally say it's 20 years minimum.

7 years isn’t a generation. It also doesn’t matter. I doubt the good Friday agreement even says it’s a generation. It’s just the period of time they have decided is suitable between votes.
It’s time for another vote in Scotland. Legally that might be impossible and then the Yes campaign becomes a fight for democracy. That won’t hurt.


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[Since90+2]

7 years isn’t a generation. It also doesn’t matter. I doubt the good Friday agreement even says it’s a generation. It’s just the period of time they have decided is suitable between votes.
It’s time for another vote in Scotland. Legally that might be impossible and then the Yes campaign becomes a fight for democracy. That won’t hurt.


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I personally don't think enough time has past on that measure alone, I do think Brexit is an exceptional case though and a legitimate case for a referendum can be made on that basis.

If it was the case 8 years had simply passed that IMO, wouldn't have been enough.

[ronaldo7]

At the moment the positive case for the union seems to be.

1. Once in a generation
2. Wildcat referendum
3. No mandate.

[James310]

At the moment the positive case for the union seems to be.

1. Once in a generation
2. Wildcat referendum
3. No mandate.

I can see some advantages of Independence if it happened, for example having control of immigration as Scotland has an aging population and a low tax base so we need more people.

Are you really saying there isn't a single benefit Scotland gets in being part of the UK? Nothing?

[Since90+2]

At the moment the positive case for the union seems to be.

1. Once in a generation
2. Wildcat referendum
3. No mandate.

I honestly think arguing the "once in a generation" thing is a bad strategy by the SNP. It was said many times by YES policitians in the build up to 2014, and I would imagine most people don't see a generation as only being 8 years.

If the SNP are smart then they'll let the unionists have that, the real reason for the vote is Brexit. Brexit is hugely unpopular in Scotland as we know, and it's pretty unarguable that it's a fundamental change to how things were in 2014.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://theferret.scot/sturgeon-2014-independence-referendum-generation/

[ronaldo7]

I honestly think arguing the "once in a generation" thing is a bad strategy by the SNP. It was said many times by YES policitians in the build up to 2014, and I would imagine most people don't see a generation as only being 8 years.

If the SNP are smart then they'll let the unionists have that, the real reason for the vote is Brexit. Brexit is hugely unpopular in Scotland as we know, and it's pretty unarguable that it's a fundamental change to how things were in 2014.

I'm not arguing the once in a generation line. I'm saying that's all the unionists seem to have. Of course it was said, just like Johnson said he'd die in a ditch.

I, like you think it's Brexit that'll turn the numbers around, as well as the youth vote.

[ronaldo7]

I can see some advantages of Independence if it happened, for example having control of immigration as Scotland has an aging population and a low tax base so we need more people.

Are you really saying there isn't a single benefit Scotland gets in being part of the UK? Nothing?

I can't think of anything we couldn't do ourselves, and better.

[Ozyhibby]

I personally don't think enough time has past on that measure alone, I do think Brexit is an exceptional case though and a legitimate case for a referendum can be made on that basis.

If it was the case 8 years had simply passed that IMO, wouldn't have been enough.

I actually agree on that. I think without Brexit it would be nowhere near to even being discussed.


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[James310]

https://theferret.scot/sturgeon-2014-independence-referendum-generation/

That just backs up what I said, it was not in the Edinburgh agreement but she and Alex Salmond said it multiple times.

The claim being fact checked was she signed something saying it, I never said she did, infact I agreed she never.

[James310]

I can't think of anything we couldn't do ourselves, and better.

That wasn't really the question was it, it's a valid view though if you genuinely believe there is not one single benefit of being part of the UK.

[Just Alf]

I personally don't think enough time has past on that measure alone, I do think Brexit is an exceptional case though and a legitimate case for a referendum can be made on that basis.

If it was the case 8 years had simply passed that IMO, wouldn't have been enough.Yup.. agree with that... I wonder if 7 years was plucked from somewhere to represent a 'political ' generation? .. 1 and a half election cycles or something?

But I agree, if Brexit hadn't happened, even the perceived broken promises of the Vow, wouldn't be enough to be pushing for the country to be asked again.

[Skol]

I agree that Brexit is a game changer and if the SNP want to call another referendum then we should have it

I do think this only way to stay in EU is to vote no chat is a bit wearing. It was true at the time and we also knew a referendum on it was possible

We should put aside any of these irrelevant arguments including once in a generation and look at the case for independence based on where we are today.

I can’t help but feel Brexit while giving the democratic right for a vote some legitimacy at the same time undermined the case for independence

I await the next papers and see what they say.

[Since90+2]

I actually agree on that. I think without Brexit it would be nowhere near to even being discussed.


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Oh it would be getting discussed you could guarantee that. The pursuit of Scottish independence gives life meaning to some people, including NS who I think has said as much previously.

[Just Alf]

I agree that Brexit is a game changer and if the SNP want to call another referendum then we should have it

I do think this only way to stay in EU is to vote no chat is a bit wearing. It was true at the time and we also knew a referendum on it was possible

We should put aside any of these irrelevant arguments including once in a generation and look at the case for independence based on where we are today.

I can’t help but feel Brexit while giving the democratic right for a vote some legitimacy at the same time undermined the case for independence

I await the next papers and see what they say.It totally is a bit wearing, although this time it's being brought up in response to the once in a generation chat... ..... really wish we could all move on to the here and now, there's loads of stuff going on now that we could all discuss instead ?

[weecounty hibby]

It's also relevant to reference a speech in October 2015 when Nicola Sturgeon said we should pursue a second independence referendum only if there is "strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country"

After Brexit, Covid, Boris Johnson etc is there evidence that the country has changed its mind and Independence has become the choice of a clear majority? I think you would hard pressed to argue it has based on all the multiple opinion polls we get.
Why does no one reference a speech where Johnson was talking about dying in a ditch. He didn't because it was speach making rhetoric. Apparently that doesn't apply to NS or AS tho

[LewysGot2]

Hardly anybody uses the term Nicola, certainly not in the media.

The party does and the public do.

Im with Nicola was the 2016 SNP slogan. On posters cars buses…

[He's here!]

Why does no one reference a speech where Johnson was talking about dying in a ditch. He didn't because it was speach making rhetoric. Apparently that doesn't apply to NS or AS tho

Because that remark was little more than just another 'Johnsonism'. These are innumerable, often off the cuff, often ill considered and rarely (if ever) to be taken particularly seriously. On the other hand 'earnest' could be Sturgeon's middle name while Salmond considers himself one of the nations finest orators, with both fastidious in preparing what they say. The once in a generation pronouncement (and IIRC Salmond actually made reference to once in a lifetime) was made with due gravitas (though presumably now much regretted).

[Kato]

Because that remark was little more than just another 'Johnsonism'. These are innumerable, often off the cuff, often ill considered and rarely (if ever) to be taken particularly seriously. On the other hand 'earnest' could be Sturgeon's middle name while Salmond considers himself one of the nations finest orators, with both fastidious in preparing what they say. The once in a generation pronouncement (and IIRC Salmond actually made reference to once in a lifetime) was made with due gravitas (though presumably now much regretted).Twisting yourself in knots there man.

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[Ozyhibby]

Because that remark was little more than just another 'Johnsonism'. These are innumerable, often off the cuff, often ill considered and rarely (if ever) to be taken particularly seriously. On the other hand 'earnest' could be Sturgeon's middle name while Salmond considers himself one of the nations finest orators, with both fastidious in preparing what they say. The once in a generation pronouncement (and IIRC Salmond actually made reference to once in a lifetime) was made with due gravitas (though presumably now much regretted).

Regretted? [emoji23]
I very much doubt that. It’s inconsequential nonsense. It’s a line taken now by unionists that is meaningless in whether there is another vote.


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[James310]

Regretted? [emoji23]
I very much doubt that. It’s inconsequential nonsense. It’s a line taken now by unionists that is meaningless in whether there is another vote.


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It's a meaningless slogan I agree, a bit like look at Denmark/Ireland/Norway or whoever else takes.our fancy at the time lets be like them.

[weecounty hibby]

Because that remark was little more than just another 'Johnsonism'. These are innumerable, often off the cuff, often ill considered and rarely (if ever) to be taken particularly seriously. On the other hand 'earnest' could be Sturgeon's middle name while Salmond considers himself one of the nations finest orators, with both fastidious in preparing what they say. The once in a generation pronouncement (and IIRC Salmond actually made reference to once in a lifetime) was made with due gravitas (though presumably now much regretted).


In the scale of pathetic arguments you have topped anything that I have ever seen. So because Johnson is a complete clown, a proven liar and a cheat we shouldn't take anything he says seriously. On the other hand Nicola Sturgeon is pretty states womanly so everything she says is 100% to be taken at face value. Hilarious. You really should read your post back and think about how ridiculous it sounds. Still it's no worse an argument than any that unionists are putting forward at the moment

[He's here!]

It's also relevant to reference a speech in October 2015 when Nicola Sturgeon said we should pursue a second independence referendum only if there is "strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country"

After Brexit, Covid, Boris Johnson etc is there evidence that the country has changed its mind and Independence has become the choice of a clear majority? I think you would hard pressed to argue it has based on all the multiple opinion polls we get.

All valid points, but the sort that get airily dismissed as irrelevant by independence supporters frustrated that those pesky polls refuse to budge significantly in their favour.

[He's here!]

Never mind opinion polls. Votes at the ballot box are what counts and we returned a majority of MSP’s who said they will pursue a second referendum. That’s how the system is supposed to work.
If you want to do away with democracy then just say so?


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The votes at the ballot box that with every passing election continue to see a majority of Scottish voters back parties in favour of the union. A significant issue for the nationalists when their in-built advantage at elections of the Tory/Labour/Lib-Dem being split is reduced to a yes or no choice.

[Ozyhibby]

The votes at the ballot box that with every passing election continue to see a majority of Scottish voters back parties in favour of the union. A significant issue for the nationalists when their in-built advantage at elections of the Tory/Labour/Lib-Dem being split is reduced to a yes or no choice.

Actually the list vote where people are actually asked to pick parties rather than inddividuals showed a majority for Indy parties.


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[Callum_62]

Actually the list vote where people are actually asked to pick parties rather than inddividuals showed a majority for Indy parties.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWho can really tell?

Better have a referendum and check imho.

Not sure why that would be an issue given the apparently dwindling support for indy

Also it will be nigh on 10 years since the last vote if we are allowed to have it late next year

A decade.

A decade governed by that same party too. how many elections?

That party's main objective by the way, is independance


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[Moulin Yarns]

The votes at the ballot box that with every passing election continue to see a majority of Scottish voters back parties in favour of the union. A significant issue for the nationalists when their in-built advantage at elections of the Tory/Labour/Lib-Dem being split is reduced to a yes or no choice.

The last scottish election, taking the constituency votes and the list votes together, divided by 2 (to account for the 2 votes) had independence parties ahead by around 18,000.

[lapsedhibee]

The last scottish election, taking the constituency votes and the list votes together, divided by 2 (to account for the 2 votes) had independence parties ahead by around 18,000.

Yes but if you exclude one or the other you can confidently state that unionists were a majority. Have you learned *nothing* from The Johnson Method Of Employment Statistics?

[Moulin Yarns]

The votes at the ballot box that with every passing election continue to see a majority of Scottish voters back parties in favour of the union. A significant issue for the nationalists when their in-built advantage at elections of the Tory/Labour/Lib-Dem being split is reduced to a yes or no choice.

I was sad enough to look back at the full figures

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?351284-Scottish-Election-2021&p=6556240&viewfull=1#post6556240


(https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?351284-Scottish-Election-2021&p=6556240&viewfull=1#post6556240)


Constituency votes only - NO majority 38462

List votes only - YES majority 76210

All votes divided by 2 - YES Majority 18874


A final thing is the number of votes required to win a seat for each party.



https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?351284-Scottish-Election-2021&p=6557579&viewfull=1#post6557579

[lucky]

I’m a Labour Party member and I support the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Both sides can then put forward their arguments and we the people can decide just as did in 2014. Democracy can’t be dictated too, it’s got to be the right of the people to decide. I do feel that our world has changed since 2014, Brexit is a game change for many. But for me, I voted No in 2014, to enable us to change the U.K. but the vision I supported was put to the people under Jeremy Corbyn and was rejected twice. If the leave/yes campaign offers a more equal society, proposes better employment laws, scraps the anti trade union laws, increase benefits, builds more houses, invests in our NHS and Education, reforms social care, scraps the monarchy and has a more progressive tax system then I’m a definite Leave/Yes voter. We need the vision of Scotland to be radical not just a watered down version of the Westminster system and it needs to delivering for the many not the few

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m a Labour Party member and I support the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Both sides can then put forward their arguments and we the people can decide just as did in 2014. Democracy can’t be dictated too, it’s got to be the right of the people to decide. I do feel that our world has changed since 2014, Brexit is a game change for many. But for me, I voted No in 2014, to enable us to change the U.K. but the vision I supported was put to the people under Jeremy Corbyn and was rejected twice. If the leave/yes campaign offers a more equal society, proposes better employment laws, scraps the anti trade union laws, increase benefits, builds more houses, invests in our NHS and Education, reforms social care, scraps the monarchy and has a more progressive tax system then I’m a definite Leave/Yes voter. We need the vision of Scotland to be radical not just a watered down version of the Westminster system and it needs to delivering for the many not the few

There will be many in the same boat. I was scunnered when Corbyn lost. I think someone like him simply has no chance of winning in the uk. As much as I feel solidarity to the left in England over the right in Scotland, unfortunately I can't take more tory Westminster governments.

I'm sure there will be a strong Labour party again post independence, there will also be Conservatives. But I feel as Scotland is much more left leaning that the Scottish Labour Party will have more freedom for social reform.

[ronaldo7]

I’m a Labour Party member and I support the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Both sides can then put forward their arguments and we the people can decide just as did in 2014. Democracy can’t be dictated too, it’s got to be the right of the people to decide. I do feel that our world has changed since 2014, Brexit is a game change for many. But for me, I voted No in 2014, to enable us to change the U.K. but the vision I supported was put to the people under Jeremy Corbyn and was rejected twice. If the leave/yes campaign offers a more equal society, proposes better employment laws, scraps the anti trade union laws, increase benefits, builds more houses, invests in our NHS and Education, reforms social care, scraps the monarchy and has a more progressive tax system then I’m a definite Leave/Yes voter. We need the vision of Scotland to be radical not just a watered down version of the Westminster system and it needs to delivering for the many not the few

Great post.

I think we could find ourselves in the same party post independence.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m a Labour Party member and I support the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Both sides can then put forward their arguments and we the people can decide just as did in 2014. Democracy can’t be dictated too, it’s got to be the right of the people to decide. I do feel that our world has changed since 2014, Brexit is a game change for many. But for me, I voted No in 2014, to enable us to change the U.K. but the vision I supported was put to the people under Jeremy Corbyn and was rejected twice. If the leave/yes campaign offers a more equal society, proposes better employment laws, scraps the anti trade union laws, increase benefits, builds more houses, invests in our NHS and Education, reforms social care, scraps the monarchy and has a more progressive tax system then I’m a definite Leave/Yes voter. We need the vision of Scotland to be radical not just a watered down version of the Westminster system and it needs to delivering for the many not the few

:applause:

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61853621

Too much to hope we'll be spared his nasal tones at Westminster? I used to find his predecessor Angus Robertson unbearably smug but Blackford outdoes him for pomposity.

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61853621

Too much to hope we'll be spared his nasal tones at Westminster? I used to find his predecessor Angus Robertson unbearably smug but Blackford outdoes him for pomposity.

The Sun has the tapes of the SNP parliament meeting where they were all cheering and saying "hear hear" regarding supporting Patrick Grady.

The big question is which SNP MP recorded it and leaked it. I think we can all make an educated guess. 🍒

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61853621

Too much to hope we'll be spared his nasal tones at Westminster? I used to find his predecessor Angus Robertson unbearably smug but Blackford outdoes him for pomposity.


The Sun has the tapes of the SNP parliament meeting where they were all cheering and saying "hear hear" regarding supporting Patrick Grady.

The big question is which SNP MP recorded it and leaked it. I think we can all make an educated guess. [emoji523]

I really don’t see how this becomes a problem? What Grady done was unprofessional but that’s about it. The two day suspension seems just about right. Am I missing something here? It looks based on the info from the 19 year old himself that it was just a clumsy sexual advance in a bar? Hardly the crime of the century. A bit sleazy due to age difference and obviously unprofessional due to them working together but not a sacking offence?


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[James310]

I really don’t see how this becomes a problem? What Grady done was unprofessional but that’s about it. The two day suspension seems just about right. Am I missing something here? It looks based on the info from the 19 year old himself that it was just a clumsy sexual advance in a bar? Hardly the crime of the century. A bit sleazy due to age difference and obviously unprofessional due to them working together but not a sacking offence?


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I guess if you say you have zero tolerance to sexually inappropriate behavior then zero tolerance should mean exactly that. Not well it's not that bad and it was only a drunken pass so we will let it go with a 2 day suspension. Seems a bit hypocrital that's all.

Joanna Cherry wasn't there, which makes it even more interesting. Who could it be?

[ronaldo7]

I guess if you say you have zero tolerance to sexually inappropriate behavior then zero tolerance should mean exactly that. Not well it's not that bad and it was only a drunken pass so we will let it go with a 2 day suspension. Seems a bit hypocrital that's all.

Joanna Cherry wasn't there, which makes it even more interesting. Who could it be?

Chris Musson.🐽

Next time you have an educated guess, you might want to find out who was in the room.

#basics

[James310]

Chris Musson.🐽

Next time you have an educated guess, you might want to find out who was in the room.

#basics

What's the Chris Musson reference for? Did he record it, how did he do that?

How would I know who is in the room?

Is there a list somewhere online?

[ronaldo7]

What's the Chris Musson reference for? Did he record it, how did he do that?

How would I know who is in the room?

Is there a list somewhere online?

The sun has form on taping events/people.

Why did you suggest 🍒?

[James310]

The sun has form on taping events/people.

Why did you suggest 🍒?

I suggested Cherry because of the falling she has had with the party.

Are you suggesting the Sun illegally bugged the House of Commons, probably the most secure building in the UK? Really? How would they have managed that?

[Berwickhibby]

Hopefully we, the public, actually get to hear the tape and the context this support is said.

[ronaldo7]

I suggested Cherry because of the falling she has had with the party.

Are you suggesting the Sun illegally bugged the House of Commons, probably the most secure building in the UK? Really? How would they have managed that?

Journalists never walk the corridors of power. 😆

They're regularly seen sat outside meeting rooms. It's not beyond the wit of man to see how it could be done, but, you seem to have it that it's an SNP mole.

Crack on. 👍

[Santa Cruz]

Hopefully we, the public, actually get to hear the tape and the context this support is said.

It's online in most press websites.

[Since90+2]

Journalists never walk the corridors of power. 😆

They're regularly seen sat outside meeting rooms. It's not beyond the wit of man to see how it could be done, but, you seem to have it that it's an SNP mole.

Crack on. 👍

Has there every been an incident of a journalist secretly recording a meeting within the House of Commons? I genuinely can't think of that ever happening before.

[Berwickhibby]

It's online in most press websites.

Thanks, I have only seen links to the Mail which I don’t read

[Stairway 2 7]

Has there every been an incident of a journalist secretly recording a meeting within the House of Commons? I genuinely can't think of that ever happening before.

Why would they admit to that 😆 they also wouldn't admit to tapping dead children's phones unless caught

[Since90+2]

Why would they admit to that 😆 they also wouldn't admit to tapping dead children's phones unless caught

To be honest, I can't even think of any meetings being taped at all from Westminster and released to the public.

Maybe I'm missing am obvious incident but I genuinely can't remember hearing a taped conversation from a secured meeting in Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

To be honest, I can't even think of any meetings being taped at all from Westminster and released to the public.

Maybe I'm missing am obvious incident but I genuinely can't remember hearing a taped conversation from a secured meeting in Westminster.

None of us on here know who's done the deed. Im just pointing out that it could be one of many people.

It wasn't Joanna cherry though, unless she had an ear to the back door, as the other one was covered by Chris Musson. 😆

[Since90+2]

None of us on here know who's done the deed. Im just pointing out that it could be one of many people.

It wasn't Joanna cherry though, unless she had an ear to the back door, as the other one was covered by Chris Musson. 😆

I just think if it was as easy as you are suggesting for a journalist to do something like that it would have happened previously. Some of the conversations would be like gold dust to a journalist, in the grand scheme of things this would actually be pretty insignificant.

The likelihood is that it was done by someone in the SNP who probably feels the victim hasn't been properly supported and sidelined like they are claiming.

[He's here!]

It would appear that the SNP aren't convinced that the complainant should be taken especially seriously when you bear in mind how quickly they effectively ended the political careers of Mackay and McDonald. For Blackford to have called them into a meeting at which the MP they'd made the complaint against was present to make an apology seems odd in the light of the fact that during the Salmond fiasco Salmond askd for a similar meeting with complainants but saw that request (rightly IMHO) declined.

Said it earlier but Sturgeon's statement here also struck me as curious as it contained no direct apology to the complainant.

[Berwickhibby]

Finding who made the recording is irrelevant to me at this time, the pathetic punishment handed out to Grady for making sexual advances to a teenager 17 years his junior, we know little about the victim but had I been a 19 year hit on by a man 17 years my senior I am sure it would have ended up with him having a sore face.

Is this the zero tolerance that Blackford spoke about.

[Since90+2]

It would appear that the SNP aren't convinced that the complainant should be taken especially seriously when you bear in mind how quickly they effectively ended the political careers of Mackay and McDonald. For Blackford to have called them into a meeting at which the MP they'd made the complaint against was present to make an apology seems odd in the light of the fact that during the Salmond fiasco Salmond askd for a similar meeting with complainants but saw that request (rightly IMHO) declined.

Said it earlier but Sturgeon's statement here also struck me as curious as it contained no direct apology to the complainant.

I'm sure I read the incident took place in 2016? It seems strange it's only coming to light now.

[Stairway 2 7]

To be honest, I can't even think of any meetings being taped at all from Westminster and released to the public.

Maybe I'm missing am obvious incident but I genuinely can't remember hearing a taped conversation from a secured meeting in Westminster.

How would we know if it happened or not it's illegal they are hardly going to say. As I said we only know about the wire taps on phones because there house of cards fell down. Mps aren't meant to record things but I'm sure they do on there phone. They could also just phone a journalist during a meeting. They wouldn't literally physically put in a bug

[Since90+2]

How would we know if it happened or not it's illegal they are hardly going to say. As I said we only know about the wire taps on phones because there house of cards fell down. Mps aren't meant to record things but I'm sure they do on there phone. They could also just phone a journalist during a meeting. They wouldn't literally physically put in a bug

My understanding is that the actual tapes are in the media, as far as I'm aware that has never happened before.

You don't think in all the years of journalists being in the HOC that a tape would be leaked? It's never happened previously. If journalists were regularly, or had the ability to, tape a conversation you can absolutely guarantee it would have been made public previously.

[Stairway 2 7]

My understanding is that the actual tapes are in the media, as far as I'm aware that has never happened before.

You don't think in all the years of journalists being in the HOC that a tape would be leaked? It's never happened previously. If journalists were regularly, or had the ability to, tape a conversation you can absolutely guarantee it would have been made public previously.

So you think this is a genuine first and it happens to be the snp

[Since90+2]

So you think this is a genuine first and it happens to be the snp

No, I think the likelihood of it being a journalist is slim.

To me, it points to a SNP MP not being happy with how the victim has been treated and has recorded it and leaked it for that reason. We will likely never know, but it seems the most plausible explanation IMO.

[Stairway 2 7]

No, I think the likelihood of it being a journalist is slim.

To me, it points to a SNP MP not being happy with how the victim has been treated and has recorded it and leaked it for that reason. We will likely never know, but it seems the most plausible explanation IMO.

I'd agree that's what usually happens

[He's here!]

I'm sure I read the incident took place in 2016? It seems strange it's only coming to light now.

The complainant also alleged inappropriate behaviour towards him from a female SNP MP in 2020 according to this piece in the Record. Don't know what follow-up there's been on that:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/ian-blackford-called-quit-over-27272894

[Ozyhibby]

The complainant also alleged inappropriate behaviour towards him from a female SNP MP in 2020 according to this piece in the Record. Don't know what follow-up there's been on that:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/ian-blackford-called-quit-over-27272894

Hope she didn’t touch his back as well? The trauma for the poor guy.[emoji51]


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[Since90+2]

Hope she didn’t touch his back as well? The trauma for the poor guy.[emoji51]


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Is that what Grady done? Touch his back?

[Ozyhibby]

Is that what Grady done? Touch his back?

Yes. The substance of the claim is that Grady sat beside him and put his hand on his back and neck.


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[Since90+2]

Yes. The substance of the claim is that Grady sat beside him and put his hand on his back and neck.


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I've just read the article. He touched and stroked his back, neck and hair. So not quite just "touching his back". I know you're a SNP supporter but it would be good if we could actually stick to the facts.

If you have kids, would you be happy for a 43 year old man to be stroking their neck and back when they are still a teenager? I certainly wouldn't it and I'd expect their complaint to be taking extremely seriously.

To simply laugh it off with a smiley face and sarcastically use the word trauma is ridiculous and I suspect if it were a Tory your response would be completely different.

[Ozyhibby]

I've just read the article. He touched and stroked his back, neck and hair. So not quite just "touching his back". I know you're a SNP supporter but it would be good if we could actually stick to the facts.

If you have kids, would you be happy for a 43 year old man to be stroking their neck and back when they are still a teenager? To simply laugh it off with a smiley face and sarcastically use the word trauma is ridiculous.

The 19 year old rejected his advance and it went no further. That would normally be the end of the matter in just about every other walk of life.


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[Since90+2]

The 19 year old rejected his advance and it went no further. That would normally be the end of the matter in just about every other walk of life.


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Whether it went further or not is irrelevant. It's creepy behaviour for a man of that age to be doing that to a 19 year old and it's not the standard of behaviour I'd expect from our elected policitians.

You have no idea how it impacted the victim but are happy to literally laugh it off with smiley faces.

[Ozyhibby]

Whether it went further or not is irrelevant. It's creepy behaviour for a man of that age to be doing that to a 19 year old and it's not the standard of behaviour I'd expect from our elected policitians.

You have no idea how it impacted the victim but are happy to literally laugh it off with smiley faces.

43 year olds def shouldn’t be making passes at 19 year olds in my opinion but let’s not kid on it doesn’t happen. And it’s legal. The only consideration when it came to his suspension was that they worked together and that was seen as inappropriate. And that’s why he was suspended for two days. To have a suspension on your record from work is not nothing. The independent committee who decided this seem to have got it just about right.
Do you feel like it should be a sacking offence?


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[He's here!]

The 19 year old rejected his advance and it went no further. That would normally be the end of the matter in just about every other walk of life.


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Would it? Maybe in times gone by but 'get over it' or 'man up' doesn't really cut it in today's society - and rightly so. While great care must be taken to ensure lives and careers aren't scunnered by unfounded allegations, any allegation of sexual misconduct must be taken seriously. For some teenagers such incidents may not leave a lasting impression but for others it can be a disturbing and confusing situation to deal with. We don't know what sort of person this complainant is but it can take courage to come forward and make complaints of this nature, especially when the allegations concern a person of relatively high standing. Look at how many years Salmond's sleazeball behaviour was allowed to pass unchallenged - and even when he was finally pulled up on it the complainants were badly let down by the Scottish government's substandard complaints procedure.

As I said, I'm surprised by the SNP's reaction to this situation where sympathy seems to lie more with the accused MP than the complainant and I wonder if there's more to the story than the media is party to. Mind you, in Blackford's case his heartless behaviour towards the late Charles Kennedy indicates that empathy may not be his strong suit.

[Since90+2]

43 year olds def shouldn’t be making passes at 19 year olds in my opinion but let’s not kid on it doesn’t happen. And it’s legal. The only consideration when it came to his suspension was that they worked together and that was seen as inappropriate. And that’s why he was suspended for two days. To have a suspension on your record from work is not nothing. The independent committee who decided this seem to have got it just about right.
Do you feel like it should be a sacking offence?


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I think when the SNP come out and say they have a zero tolerance policy then it should literally mean that.

Whether it's legal or not is irrelevant. There are lots of things which are technically legal that our elected policitians shouldn't be doing. They are held to a higher standard than your local postman or plumber, that comes with the territory of having the privilege of representing their constituents. They represent the people of this country, stroking a teenagers hair, neck and back is not some m minor incident.

IMO in the current climate it would be best for everyone if he stood down.

[Ozyhibby]

Would it? Maybe in times gone by but 'get over it' or 'man up' doesn't really cut it in today's society - and rightly so. While great care must be taken to ensure lives and careers aren't scunnered by unfounded allegations, any allegation of sexual misconduct must be taken seriously. For some teenagers such incidents may not leave a lasting impression but for others it can be a disturbing and confusing situation to deal with. We don't know what sort of person this complainant is but it can take courage to come forward and make complaints of this nature, especially when the allegations concern a person of relatively high standing. Look at how many years Salmond's sleazeball behaviour was allowed to pass unchallenged - and even when he was finally pulled up on it the complainants were badly let down by the Scottish government's substandard complaints procedure.

As I said, I'm surprised by the SNP's reaction to this situation where sympathy seems to lie more with the accused MP than the complainant and I wonder if there's more to the story than the media is party to. Mind you, in Blackford's case his heartless behaviour towards the late Charles Kennedy indicates that empathy may not be his strong suit.

I think there is no point speculating if there was more to it. The complaint was made, Grady admitted it and it was put to independent advisors to decide the outcome. It’s been accepted by the SNP. Grady’s career on the front bench is over now. I’d be surprised if he stands again.


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[Stairway 2 7]

He's a creepy ******* and lucky to have a job. Bigger than the age difference is the position of power in the workplace. metoo isn't just for females.

[He's here!]

No, I think the likelihood of it being a journalist is slim.

To me, it points to a SNP MP not being happy with how the victim has been treated and has recorded it and leaked it for that reason. We will likely never know, but it seems the most plausible explanation IMO.

Hunt launched for the source of the leak:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-threatens-mps-over-westminster-leak-nb7tdrwhj

How many people would have been in this group meeting? Would it be terribly hard to narrow down the suspects?

[Since90+2]

Hunt launched for the source of the leak:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-threatens-mps-over-westminster-leak-nb7tdrwhj

How many people would have been in this group meeting? Would it be terribly hard to narrow down the suspects?

I'd guess most of the SNP MPs? That's a good number.

[Berwickhibby]

More concerned about the leak and protecting the sex pest than applying the zero tolerance that they preach

[Just Alf]

More concerned about the leak and protecting the sex pest than applying the zero tolerance that they preachHave seen something very similar in a 'normal' workplace a few months ago where it was a comparable outcome I'd be interested to see what happens... normally once the independent committee has made their ruling, that's it... however in politics the person needs to get reelected by the constituency to stand again... I'd be really disappointed if that happens.

[Ozyhibby]

Have seen something very similar in a 'normal' workplace a few months ago where it was a comparable outcome I'd be interested to see what happens... normally once the independent committee has made their ruling, that's it... however in politics the person needs to get reelected by the constituency to stand again... I'd be really disappointed if that happens.

I would think that there would be legal ramifications for the SNP if they had done anything other than what the independent committee advised.


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[James310]

I would think that there would be legal ramifications for the SNP if they had done anything other than what the independent committee advised.


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The independent committee was a House of Commons procedure, the SNP can dish out their own punishment. The fact they chose to be very lenient is their own choice. As multiple other posters have said it's the hypocrisy of Ian Blackford, he is on record as saying there would be zero tolerance of sexual impropriety, yet he was recorded saying people had to get behind Grady and offer him support.

What's your definition of zero tolerance?

[Just Alf]

The independent committee was a House of Commons procedure, the SNP can dish out their own punishment. The fact they chose to be very lenient is their own choice. As multiple other posters have said it's the hypocrisy of Ian Blackford, he is on record as saying there would be zero tolerance of sexual impropriety, yet he was recorded saying people had to get behind Grady and offer him support.

What's your definition of zero tolerance?In this case to try and steer the local members to not reselect him... mind you, often parties get grief for encouraging 'place men'.. hopefully that wouldn't be the case this time.

[James310]

In this case to try and steer the local members to not reselect him... mind you, often parties get grief for encouraging 'place men'.. hopefully that wouldn't be the case this time.

What a bizarre series of events as now the SNP Chief Whip says there will be no tolerance of leakers and threatens his own MPs with legal and potentially criminal action.

No tolerance of leaking but those accused of sexual misconduct get the full support of the party.

Not a great few days for the SNP London group and more to come as Patrica Gibson is up next for sexual misconduct.

[Since90+2]

What a bizarre series of events as now the SNP Chief Whip says there will be no tolerance of leakers and threatens his own MPs with legal and potentially criminal action.

No tolerance of leaking but those accused of sexual misconduct get the full support of the party.

Not a great few days for the SNP London group and more to come as Patrica Gibson is up next for sexual misconduct.

It does appear to be a strange course of action they are taking.

[Just Alf]

What a bizarre series of events as now the SNP Chief Whip says there will be no tolerance of leakers and threatens his own MPs with legal and potentially criminal action.

No tolerance of leaking but those accused of sexual misconduct get the full support of the party.

Not a great few days for the SNP London group and more to come as Patrica Gibson is up next for sexual misconduct.Not sure what I've quoted above ties into my post....

Surely you must agree that they should get rid of him by the quickest legal process? .... and like me would be disappointed and angry if they didn't...

[James310]

Not sure what I've quoted above ties into my post....

Surely you must agree that they should get rid of him by the quickest legal process? .... and like me would be disappointed and angry if they didn't...

A 2 day suspension and shouts of "hear hear" in support for him are not the actions of a party that wants to get rid of him. As ex Chief Whip he will know everyone's secrets!

[Berwickhibby]

A 2 day suspension and shouts of "hear hear" in support for him are not the actions of a party that wants to get rid of him. As ex Chief Whip he will know everyone's secrets!

At the very least Grady and Blackford should resign ….but they won’t as they are enjoying the gravy train

[LewysGot2]

The conduct of Grady would be taken really seriously in any job where the person is in a position of trust and may well be gross misconduct.
It's not acceptable behaviour at any time in the workplace and with the gross imbalance of power - a teenager who will be petrified to rock the boat as their career could be jeopardised and these MPs are in close circles with the FM of Scotland...I can't see how anyone can't see how poor this is and how this very young person might be feeling.
Seen a lot of folk dismissing this because of loyalty to a cause or party. Think this is something we have seen somewhere else not that long ago.

Quite remarkable that the focus seems to be weeding out the leak rather than supporting the young person or doing the right thing.

Whether it's protecting the Crown, a party or a cause...this should not be happening. Very depressing

[He's here!]

Hope she didn’t touch his back as well? The trauma for the poor guy.[emoji51]


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The subsequent complaint against North Ayrshire and Arran MP Patricia Gibson has been upheld according to this update:

Ian Blackford ‘should go’ as SNP Westminster leader for backing shamed MP | Scotland | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/801bda18-ef48-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e4f8ef5155c31b8c77eaf313ff 6ad469)

I sense this issue has the potential to become more awkward for the SNP than they initially assumed. Probably all a dastardly plot to undermine them in the wake of last week's latest independence proclamations mind you :wink:

[Just Alf]

The subsequent complaint against North Ayrshire and Arran MP Patricia Gibson has been upheld according to this update:

Ian Blackford ‘should go’ as SNP Westminster leader for backing shamed MP | Scotland | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/801bda18-ef48-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e4f8ef5155c31b8c77eaf313ff 6ad469)

I sense this issue has the potential to become more awkward for the SNP than they initially assumed. Probably all a dastardly plot to undermine them in the wake of last week's latest independence proclamations mind you :wink:Tend to agree, I think there's going to be more scrutiny and pressure coming.

On that last paragraph, it wouldn't surprise me if that actually was the case!
On the Tory thread some were speculating that revelations coming out re Johnson seemed to getting nicely drip fed :agree:

[James310]

https://twitter.com/AmyCallaghanSNP/status/1538897047486713856?t=a6enGnmTxguCS0BLbiGC_g&s=19

At least some in the party seem to be taking it more seriously than some on here.

Fair play to her for this statement.

Although like all of these kind of statements there is a little bit of sorry I got caught. If the tape hadn't been leaked by her colleague then she would have made no statement.

[Stairway 2 7]

What were snp thinking not going hard on this, its 2022.

joannaccherry
🧵I wasn’t at the SNP Westminster group meeting last week. I don’t condone the covert recording or leak. However, for some time the SNP has had significant problems in how it handles complaints

My party needs to reflect on the contrast between the treatment of different “offenders” and to review our arrangements for the pastoral care of complainers

[Since90+2]

SNP should have suspended Grady instead now this will rumble on. It was utterly ridiculous to throw your weight of support behind a guy who's just admitted to sexual misconduct.

[Glory Lurker]

As a member, I find the SNP's "we need to move on" approach very disappointing.

[Keith_M]

I now have this thought going through my head of the SNP Committee leaving their discussion with Grady and singing a variation of the 1980s "Arthur Daley" song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e6X37PKqPc)...


:singing:

"Oh Patrick Grady,
a little dodgy maybe,
but underneath... he's alright
...
he's alright is Patrick,
so he strokes a few teenager's necks, it's not a crime is it?
well... yeah... technically it is"

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/AmyCallaghanSNP/status/1538897047486713856?t=a6enGnmTxguCS0BLbiGC_g&s=19

At least some in the party seem to be taking it more seriously than some on here.

Fair play to her for this statement.

Although like all of these kind of statements there is a little bit of sorry I got caught. If the tape hadn't been leaked by her colleague then she would have made no statement.

Yes, as you say at least she's come out and admitted it wasn't a good look. The silence from more senior party figures continues.

[500miles]

A stroked neck? It's all a bit puritanical.

[Stairway 2 7]

A stroked neck? It's all a bit puritanical.
Would you feel the same if it was a teenage female. Regardless if you do I'm sorry to say your stuck in a different decade.

"At that point, he started putting his fingers down the back of my collar, touching me inappropriately there. He was also grabbing my hair."

It's been a joke from the start. After he made the complaint Ian Blackford invited him to a meeting and grady was sitting in the room crying and apologising when he walked in. What the f is that. Walk in and see the person your accusing of abuse sitting there. The only person they appear to want strong action against is the leaker

[heretoday]

Hope she didn’t touch his back as well? The trauma for the poor guy.[emoji51]


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He must be a dashed attractive fellow - men and women touching him up.

Enjoy it mate. It doesn't last forever!

[Stairway 2 7]

He must be a dashed attractive fellow - men and women touching him up.

Enjoy it mate. It doesn't last forever!

Another post downplaying sexual inappropriate behaviour 👏. This place recently has been like the BBC in the 70s

[JeMeSouviens]

Another post downplaying sexual inappropriate behaviour 👏. This place recently has been like the BBC in the 70s

:agree:

The unwanted attention/advances would be bad enough but when you add in the power dynamic of boss/worker, pretty disgusting.

[Berwickhibby]

Another post downplaying sexual inappropriate behaviour ��. This place recently has been like the BBC in the 70s

Yeah but yeah but …he is a good guy he is Ess Enn Peeeee Freedumb �� :wink:

You couldn’t make this up. It is apparently not in the public interest for the public to be told the outcome of any misconduct complaint made against previous and current SNP or Green ministers, the SNP/Green Government has said. Wow!

[Since90+2]

Yeah but yeah but …he is a good guy he is Ess Enn Peeeee Freedumb �� :wink:

You couldn’t make this up. It is apparently not in the public interest for the public to be told the outcome of any misconduct complaint made against previous and current SNP or Green ministers, the SNP/Green Government has said. Wow!

The SNP are acting disgracefully here. I'm sure all but their most blinded of followers will see that.

[ronaldo7]

The subsequent complaint against North Ayrshire and Arran MP Patricia Gibson has been upheld according to this update:

Ian Blackford ‘should go’ as SNP Westminster leader for backing shamed MP | Scotland | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/801bda18-ef48-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e4f8ef5155c31b8c77eaf313ff 6ad469)

I sense this issue has the potential to become more awkward for the SNP than they initially assumed. Probably all a dastardly plot to undermine them in the wake of last week's latest independence proclamations mind you :wink:

You'll be disappointed.

[Berwickhibby]

You'll be disappointed.

Why is it another sweep sweep job…move on nothing to see here…

[ronaldo7]

Why is it another sweep sweep job…move on nothing to see here…

I believe the enquiry has cleared her of the accusation. You got a problem with that?

[Stairway 2 7]

I believe the enquiry has cleared her of the accusation. You got a problem with that?

Yep commission had found her guilty but she appealed and a commons panel has overturned. Should be confirmed Thursday



It is understood a House of Commons expert panel has rejected allegations of wrongdoing against Mrs Gibson - and overturned a ruling by the Standards Commissioner.

The North Ayrshire and Arran MP appealed against the initial findings of the commissioner which upheld a complaint of harassment.

She consistently denied the claims insisting they were “malicious allegations” without any foundation.

Last night the victim said: “I would like to talk about this however, I have been forced to sign an NDA.”

[Hibrandenburg]

Why is it another sweep sweep job…move on nothing to see here…

I don't know the whole story because I've only been following it on here. But I think there definitely needs to be a discussion about what is sexually inappropriate or what is appropriate.

Is it inappropriate for an older person to have a relationship with a much younger person who is considered to be of legal age?

Does it make a difference if the older person is a man or a woman?

Does it make a difference if it is a heterosexual or homosexual relationship?

Should Dr's not be allowed make advances towards nurses due to them having power over them at work? Same question regarding pilots and cabin crew, the boss and his secretary and the panzer commander and the milkmaid? How many people have met their partners at work?

How do you make someone aware that you are drawn to them? Is there a set of guidelines at how you go about making them aware?

Before you actually touch someone, how many bases do you have to reach before that is appropriate? I'm a little out of practice at the dating game but I'm guessing a lot of it is still about sending signals and interpreting signals correctly, that in itself is a minefield. You smile, someone smiles back, you tell someone you like them they also answer in the affirmative, but normally before you then jump in the sack together there are other bases to be reached like holding hands, kissing and maybe some awkward fumbling.

The whole topic is probably worth a thread of its own.

[Berwickhibby]

I believe the enquiry has cleared her of the accusation. You got a problem with that?

Not if she has been cleared with actual evidence…only problem I have is she was initially found guilty what new evidence was provided and why has the victim got a gagging order

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't know the whole story because I've only been following it on here. But I think there definitely needs to be a discussion about what is sexually inappropriate or what is appropriate.

Is it inappropriate for an older person to have a relationship with a much younger person who is considered to be of legal age?

Does it make a difference if the older person is a man or a woman?

Does it make a difference if it is a heterosexual or homosexual relationship?

Should Dr's not be allowed make advances towards nurses due to them having power over them at work? Same question regarding pilots and cabin crew, the boss and his secretary and the panzer commander and the milkmaid? How many people have met their partners at work?

How do you make someone aware that you are drawn to them? Is there a set of guidelines at how you go about making them aware?

Before you actually touch someone, how many bases do you have to reach before that is appropriate? I'm a little out of practice at the dating game but I'm guessing a lot of it is still about sending signals and interpreting signals correctly, that in itself is a minefield. You smile, someone smiles back, you tell someone you like them they also answer in the affirmative, but normally before you then jump in the sack together there are other bases to be reached like holding hands, kissing and maybe some awkward fumbling.

The whole topic is probably worth a thread of its own.

And your examples should really be in a different thread as unrelated to the case. Of course mps should be held to different standards even though mps of all parties don't follow it.

The bit about what signals do you need is also zero to do with this case or what guidelines. He came over and started pulling his hair and putting his hand down his collar. Creepy pest behaviour for anyone to someone of any age.

What it's shown me is we have a long way to go in society. People downplaying it need to realise they are wrong and stuck in a different era.

It's also nowt to do with independence. His actions are nothing to do with the snp, although there treatment of the case is. I think the most worrying thing is a supposed intelligent person in Blackford, thought it was OK to have the accused in the room when he wanted to speak to the accuser

[Stairway 2 7]

Not if she has been cleared with actual evidence…only problem I have is she was initially found guilty what new evidence was provided and why has the victim got a gagging order

Like all sexual assault the likelihood of proving guilt with 2 people is slim. She denied it from the start grady admitted it straight away

[Berwickhibby]

Like all sexual assault the likelihood of proving guilt with 2 people is slim. She denied it from the start grady admitted it straight away

I agree, but the initial finding was of that she had, I assume there must have been more evidence than an allegation

[The Tubs]

I don't know the whole story because I've only been following it on here. But I think there definitely needs to be a discussion about what is sexually inappropriate or what is appropriate.

Is it inappropriate for an older person to have a relationship with a much younger person who is considered to be of legal age?

Does it make a difference if the older person is a man or a woman?

Does it make a difference if it is a heterosexual or homosexual relationship?

Should Dr's not be allowed make advances towards nurses due to them having power over them at work? Same question regarding pilots and cabin crew, the boss and his secretary and the panzer commander and the milkmaid? How many people have met their partners at work?

How do you make someone aware that you are drawn to them? Is there a set of guidelines at how you go about making them aware?

Before you actually touch someone, how many bases do you have to reach before that is appropriate? I'm a little out of practice at the dating game but I'm guessing a lot of it is still about sending signals and interpreting signals correctly, that in itself is a minefield. You smile, someone smiles back, you tell someone you like them they also answer in the affirmative, but normally before you then jump in the sack together there are other bases to be reached like holding hands, kissing and maybe some awkward fumbling.

The whole topic is probably worth a thread of its own.

Anything in the workplace is out of order. Especially when someone is your superior.

[Hibrandenburg]

Anything in the workplace is out of order. Especially when someone is your superior.

So all those Dr's who married nurses, pilots cabin crew and bosses their secretaries were acting sexually inappropriate?

[lapsedhibee]

So all those Dr's who married nurses, pilots cabin crew and bosses their secretaries were acting sexually inappropriate?

Why have the panzer commander and milkmaid been dumped from this list? :grr: :panic:

[James310]

So all those Dr's who married nurses, pilots cabin crew and bosses their secretaries were acting sexually inappropriate?

There is a world of difference between asking someone out for a date or a mutual attraction between 2 consenting adults getting together. This situation is not that, it was a teenage boy being propositioned by the Chief Whip of the SNP - someone extremely senior to him and of great influence remember.

It would be like the 40 something chief steward getting drunk coming on to the teenage trainee cabin crew. Totally inappropriate, the House of Commons and the SNP didn't suspend him for nothing, Grady never stood up and delivered a public apology for nothing as well.

I find it astonishing people are brushing this off.

[He's here!]

Again, an 'apology' (as Blackford finally says something about the matter) from the SNP that isn't really an apology. Similar to what Sturgeon had to say. Sorry the incident happened but not sorry to the complainant. As I've mooted, there's seems to be something more to this re the party's opinion of the guy:

Blackford says lessons will be learned after MP’s ‘inappropriate’ behaviour (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/blackford-says-lessons-will-be-learned-after-mp-e2-80-99s-e2-80-98inappropriate-e2-80-99-behaviour/ar-AAYH2yz?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[Stairway 2 7]

So all those Dr's who married nurses, pilots cabin crew and bosses their secretaries were acting sexually inappropriate?

Everywhere worth there salt has criteria in place to report relationships in the workplace, exactly to stop abuse. I don't think your getting it wouldn't be news if it was a relationship or consenting. This is about abuse and unwanted sexual touching. You can't pinch your secrataries arse like the 70s, if you do you will get fired and charged

[James310]

Again, an 'apology' (as Blackford finally says something about the matter) from the SNP that isn't really an apology. Similar to what Sturgeon had to say. Sorry the incident happened but not sorry to the complainant. As I've mooted, there's seems to be something more to this re the party's opinion of the guy:

Blackford says lessons will be learned after MP’s ‘inappropriate’ behaviour (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/blackford-says-lessons-will-be-learned-after-mp-e2-80-99s-e2-80-98inappropriate-e2-80-99-behaviour/ar-AAYH2yz?ocid=uxbndlbing)

Angus Robertson looked the other way when told of Alex Salmond's concerning behaviour at Edinburgh Airport as well. Staff around Salmond had concerns about his behaviour but were scared to speak out incase it damaged Independence as the referendum was coming up. Lessons be will learned they said.

I see today as well the bullying investigation into Fergus Ewing is not being made public as it's not in the public interest apparently (so likely upheld) Yet when Priti Patel was accused of same thing the SNP demanded it be made public. Hypocrisy is rife in politics.

[ronaldo7]

Not if she has been cleared with actual evidence…only problem I have is she was initially found guilty what new evidence was provided and why has the victim got a gagging order

I suppose that's why we have an appeals procedure in place.

[500miles]

Would you feel the same if it was a teenage female. Regardless if you do I'm sorry to say your stuck in a different decade.

"At that point, he started putting his fingers down the back of my collar, touching me inappropriately there. He was also grabbing my hair."

It's been a joke from the start. After he made the complaint Ian Blackford invited him to a meeting and grady was sitting in the room crying and apologising when he walked in. What the f is that. Walk in and see the person your accusing of abuse sitting there. The only person they appear to want strong action against is the leaker

I've had my genitals and backside grabbed on work Christmas nights out, and that was wildly inappropriate. But I am a grown man, and I am not intimidated in the way a young woman would be. I could have had them sacked, im sure, but the embarrassed apology done me given the women's age and size.

And this is nothing like what happened to me. This was mild in the extreme. Particularly in the dismissed case against the female MP, I'd suggest that this guy is at it. Imagine writing down that statement " she stroked my neck and I was scared." Get directly in the bin. The parliament is riddled with sexual misconduct - largely, I bet, because its a bad idea to have loads of cheap drink in your offices- and "they stroked my neck" is the one that breaks through?

It's all a bit odd.

[Hibrandenburg]

There is a world of difference between asking someone out for a date or a mutual attraction between 2 consenting adults getting together. This situation is not that, it was a teenage boy being propositioned by the Chief Whip of the SNP - someone extremely senior to him and of great influence remember.

It would be like the 40 something chief steward getting drunk coming on to the teenage trainee cabin crew. Totally inappropriate, the House of Commons and the SNP didn't suspend him for nothing, Grady never stood up and delivered a public apology for nothing as well.

I find it astonishing people are brushing this off.

I'm not brushing it off, I just think it's opened up a whole new topic of discussion.

If what is being reported on here about Grady is as it's being described then that and the SNP's reaction to it is sleazy.

[Stairway 2 7]

I've had my genitals and backside grabbed on work Christmas nights out, and that was wildly inappropriate. But I am a grown man, and I am not intimidated in the way a young woman would be. I could have had them sacked, im sure, but the embarrassed apology done me given the women's age and size.

And this is nothing like what happened to me. This was mild in the extreme. Particularly in the dismissed case against the female MP, I'd suggest that this guy is at it. Imagine writing down that statement " she stroked my neck and I was scared." Get directly in the bin. The parliament is riddled with sexual misconduct - largely, I bet, because its a bad idea to have loads of cheap drink in your offices- and "they stroked my neck" is the one that breaks through?

It's all a bit odd.

I don't think you realise how brutal this chat is. The part about the woman's age and size really fires it home. Your stuck in a different era thankfully

[Since90+2]

I've had my genitals and backside grabbed on work Christmas nights out, and that was wildly inappropriate. But I am a grown man, and I am not intimidated in the way a young woman would be. I could have had them sacked, im sure, but the embarrassed apology done me given the women's age and size.

And this is nothing like what happened to me. This was mild in the extreme. Particularly in the dismissed case against the female MP, I'd suggest that this guy is at it. Imagine writing down that statement " she stroked my neck and I was scared." Get directly in the bin. The parliament is riddled with sexual misconduct - largely, I bet, because its a bad idea to have loads of cheap drink in your offices- and "they stroked my neck" is the one that breaks through?

It's all a bit odd.

"But I am grown man"
"mild in the extreme"
"this guy it at it"
"get directly in the bin"

What a horrendous post. Grady has admitted sexual misconduct ffs.

I'm genuinely shocked at the response of some SNP supporters on this. On this thread alone we've had the victim mocked and laughed at with emojis and now the above statements.

People need to get a grip. The mask certainly seems to be slipping for some.

[lucky]

Grady must resign his position is untenable and he is damaging the SNP. Blackford, who has done well at Westminster, is being dragged down on this as his response is not any different to Johnston standing by his mates when they’ve behaved appallingly. If you take up public office you are subjected to a higher level of public scrutiny and standards.

If Sarwar had acted like this many poster on here would be going crazy and can you imagine if Mick Lynch from the RMT had done something like this then the whole of the U.K. media would be in a frenzy.

[He's here!]

I've had my genitals and backside grabbed on work Christmas nights out, and that was wildly inappropriate. But I am a grown man, and I am not intimidated in the way a young woman would be. I could have had them sacked, im sure, but the embarrassed apology done me given the women's age and size.

And this is nothing like what happened to me. This was mild in the extreme. Particularly in the dismissed case against the female MP, I'd suggest that this guy is at it. Imagine writing down that statement " she stroked my neck and I was scared." Get directly in the bin. The parliament is riddled with sexual misconduct - largely, I bet, because its a bad idea to have loads of cheap drink in your offices- and "they stroked my neck" is the one that breaks through?

It's all a bit odd.

You're way off the mark with that kind of chat.

[LewysGot2]

I don't think you realise how brutal this chat is. The part about the woman's age and size really fires it home. Your stuck in a different era thankfully

What the hell age and size has to do with anything, who knows?

It's like MeToo never happened.

The power imbalance here was ridiculous. Nobody in a position of trust can breach those boundaries. The era where people turned blind eyes to inappropriate behaviour are widely gone. And with good reason.

The era people seem to be harking back to also allowed the likes of well known creepy disc jockeys and personalities to act in predatory fashion.

We've still a long way to go it seems...

[He's here!]

What the hell age and size has to do with anything, who knows?

It's like MeToo never happened.

The power imbalance here was ridiculous. Nobody in a position of trust can breach those boundaries. The era where people turned blind eyes to inappropriate behaviour are widely gone. And with good reason.

The era people seem to be harking back to also allowed the likes of well known creepy disc jockeys and personalities to act in predatory fashion.

We've still a long way to go it seems...

As has this story it seems. The guy's not letting things lie with Blackford:

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/ian-blackford-snps-westminster-leader-facing-calls-to-resign-over-handling-of-sexual-harassment-case-12638655

[He's here!]

As a member, I find the SNP's "we need to move on" approach very disappointing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61909112

The staffer clearly has no intention of letting them move on. He seems to carry a lot of media clout, while Blackford rejecting the invitation to appear on Radio Scotland will do nothing to put this story to bed. Uncomfortable FMQs for Sturgeon by the sounds of it.

[He's here!]

I agree, but the initial finding was of that she had, I assume there must have been more evidence than an allegation

According to this she admitted being too drunk to recall exactly what was said and it seems largely to have come down to a case of his word against hers:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20230482.snp-mp-patricia-gibson-cleared-sexual-misconduct-bungled-investigation/

[Stairway 2 7]

According to this she admitted being too drunk to recall exactly what was said and it seems largely to have come down to a case of his word against hers:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20230482.snp-mp-patricia-gibson-cleared-sexual-misconduct-bungled-investigation/

Like most cases like these, it's most of the time unlikely that guilt will be proven. Do mps regularly get black out drunk at their work bar.

[heretoday]

A proper Scotsman would have turned round and given his assailant one in the orchestra stalls.

[Berwickhibby]

Watched Blackford’s interview on STV, avoided answering any of the questions, a lot of rhetoric on reflection etc…end of day the 2 day suspension will sufficient blah blah, independent enquiry blah blah …. Car crash of interview imho

[He's here!]

Watched Blackford’s interview on STV, avoided answering any of the questions, a lot of rhetoric on reflection etc…end of day the 2 day suspension will sufficient blah blah, independent enquiry blah blah …. Car crash of interview imho

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61926125

If Sturgeon says his comments were "utterly indefensible" and "unacceptable" why does she still have "full confidence" in him?!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61926125

If Sturgeon says his comments were "utterly indefensible" and "unacceptable" why does she still have "full confidence" in him?!

Reading that, it's bizarre Blackford never got his books

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61926125

If Sturgeon says his comments were "utterly indefensible" and "unacceptable" why does she still have "full confidence" in him?!

Nothing will happen, they again will again close ranks, possibly issue another gagging order and carry on as if nothing had ever happened.

[whiskyhibby]

Nothing will happen, they again will again close ranks, possibly issue another gagging order and carry on as if nothing had ever happened.

Your right, but as abhorrent as Blackfords conduct is there are worse examples in the SNP, online grooming, theft as well as sexual predation, it’s rife through the SNP.

Almost forgot about the missing £600k ……

they are an arrogant party that have been in power far too long, Scotland is becoming more like North Korea every day

[He's here!]

Reading that, it's bizarre Blackford never got his books

Unless the vote of confidence in him from Sturgeon ultimately ends up like most votes of confidence do...

[He's here!]

Grady to step away from SNP membership as police launch probe into allegations against him:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61942317

[Ozyhibby]

Grady to step away from SNP membership as police launch probe into allegations against him:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61942317

Think Blackford will lose his job this week as well.


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[He's here!]

Think Blackford will lose his job this week as well.


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I've never been able to stomach him but I am often sceptical of recorded/leaked info from private meetings. It can be distasteful when you see how context can be distorted to suit an agenda. However, on this occasion Blackford has had ample opportunity to set the record straight and his response has fallen way short of what was required. Whatever his personal opinion of the complainant (and reading between the lines I think we can assume it's low) and his apparent high regard for Grady none of this should have stood in the way of a straightforward apology from a guy in his position of responsibility. Instead we get one of those meaningless non-apologies ie I'm sorry this incident took place/sorry if my actions caused offence etc. Sturgeon's 'apology' has been little better...Blackford's calls to rally round Grady were 'completely unacceptable' yet she retains full confidence in him. What sort of sense are we supposed to make of that?

A blundering response all round and extremely awkward timing as Sturgeon tries to kick some life into her latest independence drive.

As this article (written prior to the current headlines) asks, surely the SNP can do better than Blackford?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/05/surely-the-snp-can-do-better-than-ian-blackford

[marinello59]

Think Blackford will lose his job this week as well.


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He should have been sacked last week. That doesn’t happen to front benchers of either Government any more. Sturgeon will only act if she feels public opinion has turned so far against Blackford she has no choice. The hypocrisy of it all is sickening.

[He's here!]

He should have been sacked last week. That doesn’t happen to front benchers of either Government any more. Sturgeon will only act if she feels public opinion has turned so far against Blackford she has no choice. The hypocrisy of it all is sickening.

Her attempt at deflection ('all parties need to learn lessons') was certainly pretty lame.

Intetesting opinion piece here:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20236731.mark-smith-patrick-grady-scandal-sign-changed/

[Keith_M]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this topic, but I was reading a very disturbing article on the influence the Crown has on Government decisions, even in the Holyrood parliament.

The viewpoint of one of the MSPs was that it's almost impossible to say which policies were amended after interference from the crown, because a number of policies are modified in advance, with the expectation of opposition.



"Under an arcane mechanism known as Queen’s consent, the monarch is routinely given advance sight of proposed laws that could affect her personal property and public powers. Unlike the better-known procedure of royal assent, a formality that marks the moment when a bill becomes law, Queen’s consent must be sought before the relevant legislation can be approved by parliament."
...

"The procedure, which operates in the UK, Scottish and Welsh parliaments, dictates that proposed laws cannot be implemented without the monarch’s approval when a bill might affect her public powers or private interests such as her privately owned estates at Balmoral and Sandringham."
...

"The memo further states that Nicola Sturgeon’s government deemed it too expensive to collate and publish a list of bills that had been modified. The Scottish government has also refused to release any of the Queen’s lawyers’ letters, arguing they must remain secret to protect her constitutional and legal privileges."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/27/queen-secret-influence-laws-revealed-scottish-government-memo


:hmmm:

[Since90+2]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this topic, but I was reading a very disturbing article on the influence the Crown has on Government decisions, even in the Holyrood parliament.

The viewpoint of one of the MSPs was that it's almost impossible to say which policies were amended after interference from the crown, because a number of policies are modified in advance, with the expectation of opposition.



"Under an arcane mechanism known as Queen’s consent, the monarch is routinely given advance sight of proposed laws that could affect her personal property and public powers. Unlike the better-known procedure of royal assent, a formality that marks the moment when a bill becomes law, Queen’s consent must be sought before the relevant legislation can be approved by parliament."
...

"The procedure, which operates in the UK, Scottish and Welsh parliaments, dictates that proposed laws cannot be implemented without the monarch’s approval when a bill might affect her public powers or private interests such as her privately owned estates at Balmoral and Sandringham."
...

"The memo further states that Nicola Sturgeon’s government deemed it too expensive to collate and publish a list of bills that had been modified. The Scottish government has also refused to release any of the Queen’s lawyers’ letters, arguing they must remain secret to protect her constitutional and legal privileges."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/27/queen-secret-influence-laws-revealed-scottish-government-memo


:hmmm:

Would never happen. The monarchy would not override a decision made by the Scottish parliament and backed by the Supreme court.

It's just a formality, similar to that Monarch needing to agree to the appointment of the PM. It is archaic but in reality it would never actually happen.

[Jack]

Would never happen. The monarchy would not override a decision made by the Scottish parliament and backed by the Supreme court.

It's just a formality, similar to that Monarch needing to agree to the appointment of the PM. It is archaic but in reality it would never actually happen.

There was a fuss kicked up a few years ago when the Queen used this to hide some of her income from the public.

[Since90+2]

There was a fuss kicked up a few years ago when the Queen used this to hide some of her income from the public.

I'm surprised it's even been mentioned as it simply wouldn't happen.

[Jack]

I'm surprised it's even been mentioned as it simply wouldn't happen.

Apparently in the early 70s.

[Since90+2]

Apparently in the early 70s.

Sorry, I was meaning the crown not agreeing to Scottish independence.

[JimBHibees]

Your right, but as abhorrent as Blackfords conduct is there are worse examples in the SNP, online grooming, theft as well as sexual predation, it’s rife through the SNP.

Almost forgot about the missing £600k ……

they are an arrogant party that have been in power far too long, Scotland is becoming more like North Korea every day

You missed out the laugh emoji

[Skol]

This really was a sad story with someone clearly put in a role they were not competent for and couldnt resist the temptation and tried to hide it behind her own incompetence. I cant help but think a little bit of honesty much earlier and a jail term could have been avoided


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61994020

[Berwickhibby]

This really was a sad story with someone clearly put in a role they were not competent for and couldnt resist the temptation and tried to hide it behind her own incompetence. I cant help but think a little bit of honesty much earlier and a jail term could have been avoided


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61994020

Point is she wasn’t honest, just a common thief who believed she could do what she liked.

[Jones28]

Point is she wasn’t honest, just a common thief who believed she could do what she liked.

:agree:

Competent or not, she stole money. End of story.

I've got no time for criminals, regardless of the colour of their scarf.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree with the above but I really wish we didn’t use custodial sentences for non-violent offences like this. I would have rather doubled her sentence but made her serve it at home rather this.


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[Since90+2]

Agree with the above but I really wish we didn’t use custodial sentences for non-violent offences like this. I would have rather doubled her sentence but made her serve it at home rather this.


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Not much of a deterrent. If she would be made to stay at home then you'd have to assume the state would be covering her bills and food expenses, otherwise she'd become homeless and would no longer be under house arrest.

[Ozyhibby]

Not much of a deterrent. If she would be made to stay at home then you'd have to assume the state would be covering her bills and food expenses, otherwise she'd become homeless and would no longer be under house arrest.

I would allow her to work and also to attend an education programme. Otherwise she has to be at home.


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[lucky]

We jail far to many people in this country. Jail should be a last resort and for those who are a threat to society. Jailing McGarry has served no purpose, the taxpayer picks up the bill and I doubt she will be rehilabnated any more in jail that outside. She has suffered a spectacular fall from grace and now we’ve put her in jail for the sake of it. She clearly can help in the community and her skill set would have served Scotland better by sentencing her to a community pay back order.

[Jack]

Agree with the above but I really wish we didn’t use custodial sentences for non-violent offences like this. I would have rather doubled her sentence but made her serve it at home rather this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you, she could have been tagged and got on with her life and saved the prison service, and therefore us, a small fortune.

As an aside by my fag packet calculation the torys will be due, between them, something like one and a half million years in the pokey for the money they've dubiously removed from the public purse over the last couple of years!

[Ozyhibby]

I agree with you, she could have been tagged and got on with her life and saved the prison service, and therefore us, a small fortune.

As an aside by my fag packet calculation the torys will be due, between them, something like one and a half million years in the pokey for the money they've dubiously removed from the public purse over the last couple of years!

And working in a job where she pays tax. It would still be a massive restriction of liberty, not being able to leave home in the evenings or weekends but it’s a lot better than locking her up 23 hours a day. It’s not just the cost of the prison service but also the cost for the nhs dealing with all the mental health issues that stem from that.


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[Since90+2]

And working in a job where she pays tax. It would still be a massive restriction of liberty, not being able to leave home in the evenings or weekends but it’s a lot better than locking her up 23 hours a day. It’s not just the cost of the prison service but also the cost for the nhs dealing with all the mental health issues that stem from that.


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That's hardly a deterrent. Being able to work freely, socialise during the day and have people visit in the evenings and weekends.

People stealing significant amounts of money from the public purse, and never admitting guilt, need to be punished harsher than that.

[He's here!]

We jail far to many people in this country. Jail should be a last resort and for those who are a threat to society. Jailing McGarry has served no purpose, the taxpayer picks up the bill and I doubt she will be rehilabnated any more in jail that outside. She has suffered a spectacular fall from grace and now we’ve put her in jail for the sake of it. She clearly can help in the community and her skill set would have served Scotland better by sentencing her to a community pay back order.

What skilll set? Based on what was presented during the trial she was hopelessly ill-equipped to be an MP, let alone made responsible for large sums of other people's money. It seems likely her mother and aunt's relatively high-profile roles within the SNP gave her something of a leg-up, but judging by what sounds like her uneven, often chaotic personal life those closest to her might be reflecting on whether it was wise to encourage her in that direction. In that respect I have some sympathy for her, seemingly unable to face up to the fact she just wasn't coping.

I don't really get the argument that her sentence could have been more lenient though. A custodial sentence was surely always on the cards and there needs to be a strong deterrent when it comes to these sort of crimes. I imagine anyone tempted to indulge in embezzlement would be more likely to do so if they knew that the worst they'd face was a tag. Not saying that isn't a significant and humiliating restriction on your liberty, but compared to the horror going to prison it's hugely less alarming prospect.

[Ozyhibby]

What skilll set? Based on what was presented during the trial she was hopelessly ill-equipped to be an MP, let alone made responsible for large sums of other people's money. It seems likely her mother and aunt's relatively high-profile roles within the SNP gave her something of a leg-up, but judging by what sounds like her uneven, often chaotic personal life those closest to her might be reflecting on whether it was wise to encourage her in that direction. In that respect I have some sympathy for her, seemingly unable to face up to the fact she just wasn't coping.

I don't really get the argument that her sentence could have been more lenient though. A custodial sentence was surely always on the cards and there needs to be a strong deterrent when it comes to these sort of crimes. I imagine anyone tempted to indulge in embezzlement would be more likely to do so if they knew that the worst they'd face was a tag. Not saying that isn't a significant and humiliating restriction on your liberty, but compared to the horror going to prison it's hugely less alarming prospect.

The fact that prison is a horror isn’t a good reason to send someone there.
I’m all for it in cases where violence is involved or for someone who is a persistent offender.
I never really get the whole deterrence argument. Most people who commit crimes don’t think they will ever be caught. State with the death penalty in America have higher homicide rates.
Sending people to jail instead of using home detention only creates losers. It’s bad for society as a whole.


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[Skol]

If she had held her hand up and acknowledged her wrongdoing I don’t think she would have had a custodial sentence. However I think she denied this throughout and still does. I get what Otrvsay about the custodial,sentence, but in the face of the evidence she surely had to come clean.

[Ozyhibby]

If she had held her hand up and acknowledged her wrongdoing I don’t think she would have had a custodial sentence. However I think she denied this throughout and still does. I get what Otrvsay about the custodial,sentence, but in the face of the evidence she surely had to come clean.

I agree she deserves the max. For me though, I would prefer if she did 4 year home detention than 2 years in jail.


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[LeithMike]

I agree she deserves the max. For me though, I would prefer if she did 4 year home detention than 2 years in jail.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow about a compromise? 3 years' detention in a new home in Rwanda?! I'm sure Pritti Patel will be working on something like this at the moment.

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[ronaldo7]

If she had held her hand up and acknowledged her wrongdoing I don’t think she would have had a custodial sentence. However I think she denied this throughout and still does. I get what Otrvsay about the custodial,sentence, but in the face of the evidence she surely had to come clean.

I agree with this.

What a waste though.

[He's here!]

The fact that prison is a horror isn’t a good reason to send someone there.
I’m all for it in cases where violence is involved or for someone who is a persistent offender.
I never really get the whole deterrence argument. Most people who commit crimes don’t think they will ever be caught. State with the death penalty in America have higher homicide rates.
Sending people to jail instead of using home detention only creates losers. It’s bad for society as a whole.


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Is that really the case? There are obviously crimes where the level of pre-planning and ingenuity involved is with a view to never being caught, but I'd suggest an enormous number of crimes are not pre-meditated - particularly crimes which are a result of impromptu violence - and the chances of getting away with it are therefore greatly reduced.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Agree with the above but I really wish we didn’t use custodial sentences for non-violent offences like this. I would have rather doubled her sentence but made her serve it at home rather this.


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Going not guilty might have tipped the balance there. If you take it trial then lose, the judge will come down hard.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that really the case? There are obviously crimes where the level of pre-planning and ingenuity involved is with a view to never being caught, but I'd suggest an enormous number of crimes are not pre-meditated - particularly crimes which are a result of impromptu violence - and the chances of getting away with it are therefore greatly reduced.

Yes but when you have people acting irrationally in the heat of the moment then the deterrent isn’t a big factor. Which is why people still kill people in America when they have the deaths sentence.


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[Aldo]

If she had held her hand up and acknowledged her wrongdoing I don’t think she would have had a custodial sentence. However I think she denied this throughout and still does. I get what Otrvsay about the custodial,sentence, but in the face of the evidence she surely had to come clean.

Zero remorse and let’s not kid ourselves on here, she knew exactly what she was doing and by all accounts a very intelligent person.

Blatant lying for me and deserves everything she gets!


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[Skol]

Zero remorse and let’s not kid ourselves on here, she knew exactly what she was doing and by all accounts a very intelligent person.

Blatant lying for me and deserves everything she gets!


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Reading back and I forgot she originally pled guilty and then tried to withdraw her plea and then refused to accept her guily

I think she was just a bit disorganised in general and also financially. It probably started not as embezzlement but to solve a cash flow issue and then grew from there. Plenty people saw the signs as well but left it too long.

Quiet sad r3ally as she could still have bee. An MP on a decent salary and no financial issues

[Aldo]

Reading back and I forgot she originally pled guilty and then tried to withdraw her plea and then refused to accept her guily

I think she was just a bit disorganised in general and also financially. It probably started not as embezzlement but to solve a cash flow issue and then grew from there. Plenty people saw the signs as well but left it too long.

Quiet sad r3ally as she could still have bee. An MP on a decent salary and no financial issues

Yip. She used her position to gain financial gain using public monies to fund holidays, nights out and pay her bills.

She is now subjected to proceeds of crime so but of a double whammy.

Zero sympathy from me!


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[He's here!]

Reading back and I forgot she originally pled guilty and then tried to withdraw her plea and then refused to accept her guily

I think she was just a bit disorganised in general and also financially. It probably started not as embezzlement but to solve a cash flow issue and then grew from there. Plenty people saw the signs as well but left it too long.

Quiet sad r3ally as she could still have bee. An MP on a decent salary and no financial issues

Think she was more than just a bit disorganised. The Herald did a feature about her last week and she appears to have had a very loose relationship with the truth long before she became an MP. Numerous jobs, work experiences and qualifications on her CV were either only partially true or simply made up. The vetting process within the SNP for selecting its candidates does not seem to have been very rigorous.

[degenerated]

Think she was more than just a bit disorganised. The Herald did a feature about her last week and she appears to have had a very loose relationship with the truth long before she became an MP. Numerous jobs, work experiences and qualifications on her CV were either only partially true or simply made up. The vetting process within the SNP for selecting its candidates does not seem to have been very rigorous.Her husband is a Tory, probably learned it all from him :stirrer:

[Berwickhibby]

Her husband is a Tory, probably learned it all from him :stirrer:

Which made her a tartan Tory :greengrin:greengrin

[degenerated]

Which made her a tartan Tory :greengrin:greengrinCan't really argue with that :hilarious

[Skol]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62054475

Sturgeon lying through her teeth here. She will be gutted Johnson has gone ;-)

[Keith_M]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62054475

Sturgeon lying through her teeth here. She will be gutted Johnson has gone ;-)


Boris Johnson being the PM did help the argument for independence.



Rees Mogg being the next PM would probably convince even more people to vote Yes

:greengrin

[WeeRussell]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62054475

Sturgeon lying through her teeth here. She will be gutted Johnson has gone ;-)

The ‘quoted’ part indicates that she says there will be overwhelming and widespread relief that he’s gone. There is nothing untrue about that.

[Smartie]

Boris being PM certainly did her no favours in terms of credibility as FM.

Whilst a solid working relationship with the PM would arguably lessen any case for independence, if she's wanting to look competent in the day job and gain trust when it comes to having people believe in her being able to lead into independence (and possibly beyond) then it might help her not to have to have to co-operate publicly with an absolute buffoon.

[Ozyhibby]

Boris being PM certainly did her no favours in terms of credibility as FM.

Whilst a solid working relationship with the PM would arguably lessen any case for independence, if she's wanting to look competent in the day job and gain trust when it comes to having people believe in her being able to lead into independence (and possibly beyond) then it might help her not to have to have to co-operate publicly with an absolute buffoon.

Demography moves the numbers more than who the PM is. 8 years has seen it move to 50/50. Another couple should do the trick.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Demography moves the numbers more than who the PM is. 8 years has seen it move to 50/50. Another couple should do the trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah labour in power undoubtedly is worse for Independence there is still a huge number of labour voters in Scotland. They might give a labour leader another chance, but could say f this if tories win again. Tory voters are probably a lost cause regardless of the winner

[Smartie]

Nah labour in power undoubtedly is worse for Independence there is still a huge number of labour voters in Scotland. They might give a labour leader another chance, but could say f this if tories win again. Tory voters are probably a lost cause regardless of the winner

Depends on what shade of Labour it is.

If they're bedecked in Union jacks, refusing to support workers and all about sending the foreigners back in order to get their Red Wall voters back then I'd be surprised if they'd tempt anyone in Scotland back.

If they in any way resemble what many of us consider to be a Labour party then it might be a different story.

[Skol]

My post was in jest but that maybe wasn’t clear.

I still think sturgeon needs a new strategy. Currently her strategy appeals to those who are already persuaded. To really turn the dial she needs to appeal to those who are either undecided or soft no voters. She could start by being more competent in the powers she has rather than being not as bad as the tories which is a low bar.

The next move by the tories will be interesting to see what direction we go in. Ideally they make another bad choice and get booted out next time and we then have a chance to change the way Britain is run.

I suspect though that will not be the case and the independence debate will drag on for a long time to come.

[Stairway 2 7]

Depends on what shade of Labour it is.

If they're bedecked in Union jacks, refusing to support workers and all about sending the foreigners back in order to get their Red Wall voters back then I'd be surprised if they'd tempt anyone in Scotland back.

If they in any way resemble what many of us consider to be a Labour party then it might be a different story.

The fact is hundreds of thousands of Scots are loyal labour voters as every election shows. I think they are probably the most important demographic if yes is to win. Almost all snp and tory voters will vote either side.

There will be a number of they labour voters who would give labour a chance even if it is starmers brand of awful

[Ozyhibby]

Nah labour in power undoubtedly is worse for Independence there is still a huge number of labour voters in Scotland. They might give a labour leader another chance, but could say f this if tories win again. Tory voters are probably a lost cause regardless of the winner

Really? The Labour Party in power and invading other countries is what got the SNP into power in the first place. What about Scotland’s recent voting pattern screams we are just waiting for Labour?


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[James310]

My post was in jest but that maybe wasn’t clear.

I still think sturgeon needs a new strategy. Currently her strategy appeals to those who are already persuaded. To really turn the dial she needs to appeal to those who are either undecided or soft no voters. She could start by being more competent in the powers she has rather than being not as bad as the tories which is a low bar.

The next move by the tories will be interesting to see what direction we go in. Ideally they make another bad choice and get booted out next time and we then have a chance to change the way Britain is run.

I suspect though that will not be the case and the independence debate will drag on for a long time to come.

That's what I said as well, she does nothing to convince No voters. Unlike Alex Salmond who I keep hearing got it from 28% to 45%. The No side are far more entrenched in their views as well and unlikely to change while Yes voters are a bit more fickle.

I am also not convinced it's actually 50/50 as well, reckon it's about the same as 2014 if you did average of all polls. Does such a thing exist?

[Stairway 2 7]

Really? The Labour Party in power and invading other countries is what got the SNP into power in the first place. What about Scotland’s recent voting pattern screams we are just waiting for Labour?


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It's not about the majority they are already yes or no and are pretty irrelevant. Like presidents focus on the swing states, snp should focus on the hundreds of thousands that will vote Labour.

[James310]

Really? The Labour Party in power and invading other countries is what got the SNP into power in the first place. What about Scotland’s recent voting pattern screams we are just waiting for Labour?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There could be a tipping point where some SNP voters get sick of being told vote for us and we will deliver Independence, and then nothing happening. Maybe not many but a few % points could make a difference.

[Skol]

Really? The Labour Party in power and invading other countries is what got the SNP into power in the first place. What about Scotland’s recent voting pattern screams we are just waiting for Labour?


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I thought we were told the snp are just the best(only) vehicle to get independence and once that’s achieved they will disappear and be replaced by the old parties.

I have read that type of thing regularly but agree it’s nonsense. Too many people have gone all in snp and anti labour who are just red tories

[Smartie]

That's what I said as well, she does nothing to convince No voters. Unlike Alex Salmond who I keep hearing got it from 28% to 45%. The No side are far more entrenched in their views as well and unlikely to change while Yes voters are a bit more fickle.

I am also not convinced it's actually 50/50 as well, reckon it's about the same as 2014 if you did average of all polls. Does such a thing exist?

I'm not convinced there are that many soft voters out there to be won over. Folk who demand that a case be put forward one way or the other are only really wanting to pick holes in it from their own position of having made up their mind rather than to ponder the merits of it and actually consider moving position.

Demographics will be a factor, and they are not on the side of the union, as folk reach voting age and others die.

That takes time though and there is a feeling that the independence thing of the last decade or so has been a bit of a movement that might have a shelf life. Folk might get fatigued, disinterested, distracted or young folk might just opt to give up and move away rather than change anything.

That's why I think NS is in a bit of a spot - to push on with a degree of urgency and risk killing the whole thing off or play the long game and risk folk losing interest.

[xyz23jc]

Depends on what shade of Labour it is.

If they're bedecked in Union jacks, refusing to support workers and all about sending the foreigners back in order to get their Red Wall voters back then I'd be surprised if they'd tempt anyone in Scotland back.

If they in any way resemble what many of us consider to be a Labour party then it might be a different story.

The SCOTTISH Labour Party WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS, as is historically been proven, TIME & TIME again,
put the needs of the UK LABOUR PARTY above all else no matter what they may say, I give you.... IAN MURRAY..cOUGH..CouGH.....cHoKE... BOAK.

ONE NATION TORYISM by any other name!! TORY LIGHT, TORY RED, WOKE ESCOAIA, POR DIOS DESPIERTA!

:thumbsup::wink::agree::greengrin:giruy2:

[Stairway 2 7]

26008

It's no coincidence the biggest jumps in the last 30 years, went against independence when Labour got in and for when the tories.

It's wishful thinking to think it won't make any difference

[degenerated]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62054475

Sturgeon lying through her teeth here. She will be gutted Johnson has gone ;-)Not that much I imagine because one thing we can be sure of is that the next leader of the conservative party will be a conservative.

[Paul1642]

I'm not convinced there are that many soft voters out there to be won over. Folk who demand that a case be put forward one way or the other are only really wanting to pick holes in it from their own position of having made up their mind rather than to ponder the merits of it and actually consider moving position.

Demographics will be a factor, and they are not on the side of the union, as folk reach voting age and others die.

That takes time though and there is a feeling that the independence thing of the last decade or so has been a bit of a movement that might have a shelf life. Folk might get fatigued, disinterested, distracted or young folk might just opt to give up and move away rather than change anything.

That's why I think NS is in a bit of a spot - to push on with a degree of urgency and risk killing the whole thing off or play the long game and risk folk losing interest.

I just posted a lengthier reply to this point on the independence thread. I think that there are plenty of people entrenched in their decision no matter what get said or done but it’s the sizeable number who would be willing to vote yes if they got a proper plan, and liked what they saw, that will sway it. Fail to convince them and the status quo will seem like the safer bet. If I get answers to all the big questions I’ll make an informed decision to the best of my ability. Fail to outline a plan and I won’t go in on blind faith.

[xyz23jc]

The fact is hundreds of thousands of Scots are loyal labour voters as every election shows. I think they are probably the most important demographic if yes is to win. Almost all snp and tory voters will vote either side.

There will be a number of they labour voters who would give labour a chance even if it is starmers brand of awful

STARMER IS TORY LIGHT ENOUGH FOR 'EM TO STOMACH, they are desperate for the HMS GOODSHIPALLISBARYDADSARMYGOODLIFEUK! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

26008

It's no coincidence the biggest jumps in the last 30 years, went against independence when Labour got in and for when the tories.

It's wishful thinking to think it won't make any difference

I personally think that 2014 changed things in a way that makes those long term graphs of limited value.


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[xyz23jc]

I personally think that 2014 changed things in a way that makes those long term graphs of limited value.


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I personally think those 2014 demographics are going southward, in a negative sense,... Hope I am seriously NEGATITVELY out of touch, won't be the first time! :greengrin

[James310]

Demographics may play a role, but perhaps in a way nobody expects. This was from last year.

"The latest Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for Scottish independence among younger voters in this group at 62 per cent — well above the 48 per cent for Scots voters as a whole. Remarkably this halves to 31 per cent when they are asked how they would vote if they were sure their household would be £1,000 a year worse off under independence."

[Ozyhibby]

Demographics may play a role, but perhaps in a way nobody expects. This was from last year.

"The latest Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for Scottish independence among younger voters in this group at 62 per cent — well above the 48 per cent for Scots voters as a whole. Remarkably this halves to 31 per cent when they are asked how they would vote if they were sure their household would be £1,000 a year worse off under independence."

I bet it halves again if you say that to will kill them if they vote yes.[emoji849]


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[WeeRussell]

Demographics may play a role, but perhaps in a way nobody expects. This was from last year.

"The latest Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for Scottish independence among younger voters in this group at 62 per cent — well above the 48 per cent for Scots voters as a whole. Remarkably this halves to 31 per cent when they are asked how they would vote if they were sure their household would be £1,000 a year worse off under independence."

What’s remarkable about it? Give anyone an option of being sure that a negative thing will happen and chances are they’ll not be for it. I wonder why that scenario was put in front of them and then quoted.

I.e most of them don’t expect to be £1,000 worse off under independence.

You’re not seriously suggesting that younger voters are going to be a bad thing for the Indy cause?

[James310]

I bet it halves again if you say that to will kill them if they vote yes.[emoji849]


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I don't think it's particular wild to suggest in the short term we would be worse off after Indy when you think of all that it entails. There was a report from LSE saying Brexit has made us all worse off to the tune of about £500, shared on here and no questions asked, the same LSE are saying Independence would be worse by 2 or 3 times.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit


Let me guess though the Brexit report is above reproach and this report is flawed or wrong.

[ronaldo7]

Demographics may play a role, but perhaps in a way nobody expects. This was from last year.

"The latest Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for Scottish independence among younger voters in this group at 62 per cent — well above the 48 per cent for Scots voters as a whole. Remarkably this halves to 31 per cent when they are asked how they would vote if they were sure their household would be £1,000 a year worse off under independence."

Did it have an effect if their household was £1000 better off?

Just for balance likes. 😁

[The Modfather]

I don't think it's particular wild to suggest in the short term we would be worse off after Indy when you think of all that it entails. There was a report from LSE saying Brexit has made us all worse off to the tune of about £500, shared on here and no questions asked, the same LSE are saying Independence would be worse by 2 or 3 times.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit


Let me guess though the Brexit report is above reproach and this report is flawed or wrong.

What if the debate is about a short term hit while the independence vision is achieved (like re-joining the EU) v a short term hit post Brexit while, well who knows we never hear anything put forward in terms of a vision for the short, mid or long term of the union. Maybe this is it, this is the vision for the future that we see now.

[James310]

What’s remarkable about it? Give anyone an option of being sure that a negative thing will happen and chances are they’ll not be for it. I wonder why that scenario was put in front of them and then quoted.

I.e most of them don’t expect to be £1,000 worse off under independence.

You’re not seriously suggesting that younger voters are going to be a bad thing for the Indy cause?

It was the report in the paper that said it was remarkable not me. We were talking about people being entrenched and not many being swayed, I was pointing out that the reliance on younger people may not be the sure thing it's made out to be, that's all.

[James310]

Did it have an effect if their household was £1000 better off?

Just for balance likes. 😁

I am sure it would go up, but there is no evidence to suggest that would happen. I don't think there is a single credible piece of analysis anywhere that's suggests after Independence we would be better off. But feel free to present some?

[ronaldo7]

I am sure it would go up, but there is no evidence to suggest that would happen. I don't think there is a single credible piece of analysis anywhere that's suggests after Independence we would be better off. But feel free to present some?

On the phone just now. I'll post a couple of links for you in the morning.

[James310]

On the phone just now. I'll post a couple of links for you in the morning.

Please don't let it be Believe in Scotland or Business for Scotland or whatever they are called!

[Moulin Yarns]

On the phone just now. I'll post a couple of links for you in the morning.

You say you're on the phone but you're really away for the last pack of lurpak 😉

[James310]

You say you're on the phone but you're really away for the last pack of lurpak 😉

You are just odd. Can't you put me on ignore, your silly little jokes are tiresome. Can't you just stick to the topics on the thread.

[Mon Dieu4]

Demographics may play a role, but perhaps in a way nobody expects. This was from last year.

"The latest Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times puts backing for Scottish independence among younger voters in this group at 62 per cent — well above the 48 per cent for Scots voters as a whole. Remarkably this halves to 31 per cent when they are asked how they would vote if they were sure their household would be £1,000 a year worse off under independence."

Demographics do play a part, the over 55s are the only age demographic that actually favour the union, the UK as we know it is on borrowed time, may not be any time soon but it's coming

[ronaldo7]

Please don't let it be Believe in Scotland or Business for Scotland or whatever they are called!

Why not?

All the ones you're posting are forecasts.

[xyz23jc]

Please don't let it be Believe in Scotland or Business for Scotland or whatever they are called!

Far better to listen fron C**** based in GODS COUNTRY.plc....Wherever that may be... South o' thi Border... I'd Imagine! :greengrin

[xyz23jc]

You say you're on the phone but you're really away for the last pack of lurpak 😉


:thumbsup::agree::greengrin LOL!

[James310]

Why not?

All the ones you're posting are forecasts.

So it was, so you think a pro Indy and SNP front is going to be impartial? Here is a bit from their website.

"We are dedicated supporters of Scottish independence as a means to deliver our goals, setting Scotland on a more inclusive, greener, confident, more equal and economically successful path."

Its the equivalent of me posting the Daily Express or Scotland in Union links, would you accept them as non biased and take then seriously? Not in a million years.

[ronaldo7]

So it was, so you think a pro Indy and SNP front is going to be impartial? Here is a bit from their website.

"We are dedicated supporters of Scottish independence as a means to deliver our goals, setting Scotland on a more inclusive, greener, confident, more equal and economically successful path."

Its the equivalent of me posting the Daily Express or Scotland in Union links, would you accept them as non biased and take then seriously? Not in a million years.

They're giving an alternative view on how we run our country.

I thought you'd at least take time to read it first.

[James310]

They're giving an alternative view on how we run our country.

I thought you'd at least take time to read it first.

So that was it then, nothing else?

[Stairway 2 7]

Scotland will obviously be worse off initially. The pound will also tank and we will be tied to it, so things will certainly start worse than they are now. But I believe we will be better in the long run, especially in Europe

[ronaldo7]

So that was it then, nothing else?

They're all forecasts, and Im willing to accept that it will be difficult to start with, but, forecasts are telling us that the UK is in for a dire decade as it is. That's after 12 years of austerity.

The only area which your government has succeeded in is the rise of food banks.

We can do better than that.

[James310]

They're all forecasts, and Im willing to accept that it will be difficult to start with, but, forecasts are telling us that the UK is in for a dire decade as it is. That's after 12 years of austerity.

The only area which your government has succeeded in is the rise of food banks.

We can do better than that.

If I posted a link from the These Islands website you would put some laughing emoji's and say is that from dog food salesman Kevin Hauge.

Yet you want people to take seriously Business for Scotland a pro Indy and SNP front which was set up by one man who actually lost tens of thousands of pounds in a failed business as an alternative view?

You would and have in the past immediately dismissed These Islands articles and analysis even although it's not actually on forecasts but actual facts, but expect to post articles from Scotland for Business articles and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp as credible sources.

I can post some links for you from These Islands for an alternative view and all that?

[WeeRussell]

It was the report in the paper that said it was remarkable not me. We were talking about people being entrenched and not many being swayed, I was pointing out that the reliance on younger people may not be the sure thing it's made out to be, that's all.

I know it was the article that used “remarkable”.. I was questioning the use of the word, hence the rest of my post.

I did think given you posted it that maybe you agreed there was something remarkable, or at least quite relevant, though.

[James310]

I know it was the article that used “remarkable”.. I was questioning the use of the word, hence the rest of my post.

I did think given you posted it that maybe you agreed there was something remarkable, or at least quite relevant, though.

Ok, I just thought it was interesting that's all.

[WeeRussell]

You are just odd. Can't you put me on ignore, your silly little jokes are tiresome. Can't you just stick to the topics on the thread.

Apologies if I’ve missed something but wasn’t MY’s little gag just a harmless one relating to the Lurpack chat on the brexit thread, and nothing to do with you?

Of course if you don’t like any of his posts full stop, you can stick him on ignore.. but the other way round isn’t going to stop you seeing ones that weren’t aimed at you. Again, if I’ve missed something then ignore that and please accept my apologies.

Given the title of this thread, I’d suggest things are already way off topic before someone makes a harmless wee one-liner 😁

[The Tubs]

I am sure it would go up, but there is no evidence to suggest that would happen. I don't think there is a single credible piece of analysis anywhere that's suggests after Independence we would be better off. But feel free to present some?

While I doubt the validity of quantitative economic predictions, is there any credible forecast that says Brexit isn't going to mean an even greater relative decline for the UK compared with the EU average?

There may be some difficulty initially with independence, but Scotland can escape the UK's fate and would more likely than not converge economically with well-off EU nations.

[James310]

While I doubt the validity of quantitative economic predictions, is there any credible forecast that says Brexit isn't going to mean an even greater relative decline for the UK compared with the EU average?

There may be some difficulty initially with independence, but Scotland can escape the UK's fate and would more likely than not converge economically with well-off EU nations.

I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

If I posted a link from the These Islands website you would put some laughing emoji's and say is that from dog food salesman Kevin Hauge.

Yet you want people to take seriously Business for Scotland a pro Indy and SNP front which was set up by one man who actually lost tens of thousands of pounds in a failed business as an alternative view?

You would and have in the past immediately dismissed These Islands articles and analysis even although it's not actually on forecasts but actual facts, but expect to post articles from Scotland for Business articles and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp as credible sources.

I can post some links for you from These Islands for an alternative view and all that?

Oh James.

When did you become the arbiter of what's posted on the forum? I didn't know the rules had changed.

You've no idea what I'd post unless you've some mystic powers. Get the numbers on the lottery tonight.

I'll leave it there. You obviously have a block when it comes to alternative views on how Scotland could prosper.

[The Modfather]

I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

Putting independence to one side, it would be good to constructively look into the bit in bold given it’s happening in the here and now. What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? Is there a slightly different path Holyrood could take to Westminster that might be a better fit for Scotland in making the best of Brexit than the path Westminster takes?

[James310]

Oh James.

When did you become the arbiter of what's posted on the forum? I didn't know the rules had changed.

You've no idea what I'd post unless you've some mystic powers. Get the numbers on the lottery tonight.

I'll leave it there. You obviously have a block when it comes to alternative views on how Scotland could prosper.

I had no idea no but looks like I was right, but happy to look at anything else you have that isn't
from a pro Indy SNP front for an alternative view.

But probably best we leave there though as you suggest.

I have some stuff down the shops that might help you. 🤣

[Ozyhibby]

I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220708/96baa5b4b46eb473e9302c03af795925.webp

So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[McSwanky]

The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220708/96baa5b4b46eb473e9302c03af795925.webp

So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIreland do, however, import more from the UK than any other country. I think the land border is more of a consideration on the 'mainland' as well as England is so much bigger than NI.

[HNA11]

It's totally ridiculous that after posting a similar warning only yesterday I am having to do this again. However it seems the gentle approach simply isn't working with some posters.

To be clear any posts hounding other posters, attempting to mock or goad them when they aren't actively engaged in a conversation and repeatedly aiming the same jibes at them over and over again is not acceptable. It's even worse when there is a pack mentality to these actions. whether it is coordinated or not is neither here nor there, multiple posters engaging in a pile on is akin to bullying and has never and will never be acceptable on here.

If debates can't be carried out in a civil manner then threads will be closed. We are primarily a football forum yet a disproportionate amount of admin time is spent monitoring and policing this non football forum, often dealing with posters who rarely use the site for it's primary purpose of discussing Hibs and football.

To repeat what was said yesterday. Anyone engaging in any of the behaviours describe above will get no more friendly warnings on threads. The infraction system will be used and nothing, up to and including bans, is off the table. We are all adults here so try and act like it.

Thank you.

[grunt]

What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin


What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

[JeMeSouviens]

Putting independence to one side, it would be good to constructively look into the bit in bold given it’s happening in the here and now. What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? Is there a slightly different path Holyrood could take to Westminster that might be a better fit for Scotland in making the best of Brexit than the path Westminster takes?

If you mean under the present devolved arrangements, then no there isn't. Or at least, there isn't without Westminster (and depending on what it is, the EU) agreeing to it. The UK Internal Market bill has been passed specifically to stop Scotland being able to do anything different under its current devolved powers.

[JeMeSouviens]

Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin

This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

I agree. But I'm not so sure the EU, having been through the rupture, will accept the UK back quickly.

[JeMeSouviens]

The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.

So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is a fundamental difference between Brexit and Indy from a trade perspective and it's pretty juvenile to draw a reductive comparison between them.

Brexit cuts the UK off from its local integrated market into an isolated position, albeit with potential to pursue hypothetical trade deals with a number of geographically far off markets we currently have no alignment with.

Indy cuts Scotland off from its local integrated market but offers immediate re-entry to a much larger local market that we currently have perfect alignment with.

Yes, the transition will be painful but there is a large tangible reward available as shown by the performance of similar sized neighbouring northern european countries.

[The Modfather]

If you mean under the present devolved arrangements, then no there isn't. Or at least, there isn't without Westminster (and depending on what it is, the EU) agreeing to it. The UK Internal Market bill has been passed specifically to stop Scotland being able to do anything different under its current devolved powers.

Yes, under the devolved powers. It’s easy to pick holes in independence but offer nothing in return as to the way forward if it’s not independence. Is it simply a straight choice between an as yet to be defined vision of independence or accept the here and now post Brexit landscape is what is we would be saying no to independence for.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes, under the devolved powers. It’s easy to pick holes in independence but offer nothing in return as to the way forward if it’s not independence. Is it simply a straight choice between an as yet to be defined vision of independence or accept the here and now post Brexit landscape is what is we would be saying no to independence for.

Well, take a N Ireland scenario. The EU doesn't like that arrangement because it threatens the integrity of the single market (the UK->NI->RoI route is a potential backdoor for non-EU standards compliant stuff) but they are willing to put up with it because of EU member state Ireland's position re peace and all-Ireland trade. The UK doesn't like it ostensibly because the Unionists are kicking up a racket but a cynic might say they also want to close off the direct comparison which is showing the NI ecomony thriving vs GB!

To get such a scenario for devolved Scotland requires massive amounts of goodwill, political capital and focus from both the UK and EU. I think we can safely call it a "long shot". :rolleyes:

[BroxburnHibee]

Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin

This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.

[degenerated]

The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220708/96baa5b4b46eb473e9302c03af795925.webp

So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe other thing I don't think we understand is how much of the trade counted between Scotland And UK is final mile distribution as opposed to produce directly from that country.

I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't be surprised, if a lot of what are termed exports from Scotland to UK are things that are for onward distribution out-with the UK and vice versa.

I can't say I have ever seen the country of origin noted in relation to this, although I may be wrong.

[Moulin Yarns]

The other thing I don't think we understand is how much of the trade counted between Scotland And UK is final mile distribution as opposed to produce directly from that country.

I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't be surprised, if a lot of what are termed exports from Scotland to UK are things that are for onward distribution out-with the UK and vice versa.

I can't say I have ever seen the country of origin noted in relation to this, although I may be wrong.

That's a good point. Goods, such as whisky, going to EU will pass through England without duty being paid until exported and will count as a rUK export.

[degenerated]

That's a good point. Goods, such as whisky, going to EU will pass through England without duty being paid until exported and will count as a rUK export.On the flip side for example wine imported into the UK from France by a distributor in England and then sold on to businesses in Scotland, does that count towards trade from UK to Scotland.

In that instance it's trade that is forced via that route because of the lack of ports in Scotland rather than a need to do that trade with UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

On the flip side for example wine imported into the UK from France by a distributor in England and then sold on to businesses in Scotland, does that count towards trade from UK to Scotland.

In that instance it's trade that is forced via that route because of the lack of ports in Scotland rather than a need to do that trade with UK.

Interesting that Forth Ports own Tilbury Dock on the Thames.

Some interesting figures here.


https://www.forthports.co.uk/forth-ports-group/


Rosyth and grangemouth have huge potential for direct export and import with EU.

[grunt]

You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.
Thanks for the reply. Last post from me on this subject in this thread. I understand why Labour is taking this approach, I just wish politicians could show more honesty. This "tell them something they want to hear and then explain later why they can't have it" is duplicitous. Politicians should explain to the electorate why they can't get what they think they want, and why they are wrong to think they want it in the first place. Otherwise we treat the electorate as infants, keeping the truth from them to avoid upsetting them.

[Hibrandenburg]

You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.

By that time the negatives of Brexit will have already done that for him.