SNP are lying b******s as well !

[CropleyWasGod]

Is that against the law? Which law would that be?

I thought the accounts had been audited and given a clean audit report?

An unqualified audit report is no guarantee of accounts being 100% accurate. :cb

[grunt]

But also signed off?
Mere detail.

[grunt]

Raising money to campaign for an Indy ref and spending it on other things could be considered fraud which is against the law.
Raising money to fight for independence and spending it on fighting for independence is against the law?

[grunt]

An unqualified audit report is no guarantee of accounts being 100% accurate. :cbWhat are auditors for then? What good are they?

[Ozyhibby]

What are auditors for then? What good are they?

To be fair, I think even auditors ask this question.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Raising money to fight for independence and spending it on fighting for independence is against the law?

If I remember correctly, the person who first raised the suggestion that money raised by the SNP for independence campaign was neither a member of the SNP or had donated to the fund. It's like he had an agenda against the SNP. He probably posts on here. 😉

[CropleyWasGod]

What are auditors for then? What good are they?

"Watchdogs, not bloodhounds" (c. Auditing 1.01)

If an auditor were to check every single transaction, no company would be able to afford them :greengrin

[Keith_M]

That's a bridge too far. 😉



At least it's not an Irish Sea tunnel...

[Pretty Boy]

Is it really that out there to question whether NS should be suspended? It's not that uncommon for people involved in an ongoing police enquiry to be suspended (on full pay) pending the conclusion of said enquiries. Someone like Mason Greenwood would be an example in football but it happens in loads of workplaces. The innocent until proven guilty mantra still applies hence it's suspension rather than dismissal.

For all the nature of the alleged offence remains out of the public eye the fact she has been placed under arrest and interviewed under caution means she isn't merely a witness assisting Police Scotland with their enquiries.

She will now be aware of any potential charges or at least have knowledge of the specifics of what is being investigated. In many employment contracts there is a clause stating you should make an employer aware if you are accused of a criminal offence, particularly one of dishonesty.

Ultimately it's up to the SNP to decide how to deal with it and they will live or die by the decision electorally.

[grunt]

If an auditor were to check every single transaction, no company would be able to afford them :greengrin
So if any fraud had taken place within the period that a set of accounts were given a clean audit report, such fraud would be immaterial to the overall accuracy of the accounts?

[Pretty Boy]

But also signed off?


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I mean Hearts accounts were signed off and they were declared a viable going concern about a month before Vlad fled the scene with a couple of suitcases stuffed full of cash for 'shares' and the administrators were called in.

[grunt]

For all the nature of the alleged offence remains out of the public eye the fact she has been placed under arrest and interviewed under caution means she isn't merely a witness assisting Police Scotland with their enquiries.Isn't that just how police interviews are done in Scotland? Under caution?

She will now be aware of any potential charges or at least have knowledge of the specifics of what is being investigated. In many employment contracts there is a clause stating you should make an employer aware if you are accused of a criminal offence, particularly one of dishonesty.Are you suggesting she's been accused of a criminal offence? That would be newsworthy.

[CropleyWasGod]

So if any fraud had taken place within the period that a set of accounts were given a clean audit report, such fraud would be immaterial to the overall accuracy of the accounts?

That would depend on the size and nature of the fraud.

"Materiality" is an important concept in audting and accounts. A book-keeper pilfering some toiletries (cf Rowling, J) probably wouldn't have an effect on the "true and fair" requirement of the Companies Acts. A Board setting up numerous companies to mask underlying losses (cf Enron) certainly would.

[grunt]

I mean Hearts accounts were signed off and they were declared a viable going concern about a month before Vlad fled the scene with a couple of suitcases stuffed full of cash for 'shares' and the administrators were called in.
I'm not sure that's entirely correct. CWG will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure the Hearts accounts were pretty heavily qualified as not being a going concern and being dependent on the continued support of Ukio.

[grunt]

That would depend on the size and nature of the fraud.

"Materiality is an important concept in audting and accounts. A book-keeper pilfering some toiletries (cf Rowling, J) wouldn't have an effect on the "true and fair" requirement of the Companies Acts. A Board setting up numerous companies to mask underlying losses (cf Enron) certainly would.
Yeah yeah, toiletries. We want to know if raising funds for one type of pro-independence activity and spending it on another constitutes fraud? :greengrin

Edit to add: don't answer this if you think it might give rise to a possible contempt of court action.

[grunt]

A Board setting up numerous companies to mask underlying losses (cf Enron) certainly would.
But AA gave Enron a clean audit report?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not sure that's entirely correct. CWG will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure the Hearts accounts were pretty heavily qualified as not being a going concern and being dependent on the continued support of Ukio.

That's correct. It was their CEO that declared they were "self-sustainable" or something similar. The auditors did have a Going Concern qualification.

[CropleyWasGod]

But AA gave Enron a clean audit report?

.. which is my point. A clean audit report is no guarantee of accurate accounts.

[Ozyhibby]

Is it really that out there to question whether NS should be suspended? It's not that uncommon for people involved in an ongoing police enquiry to be suspended (on full pay) pending the conclusion of said enquiries. Someone like Mason Greenwood would be an example in football but it happens in loads of workplaces. The innocent until proven guilty mantra still applies hence it's suspension rather than dismissal.

For all the nature of the alleged offence remains out of the public eye the fact she has been placed under arrest and interviewed under caution means she isn't merely a witness assisting Police Scotland with their enquiries.

She will now be aware of any potential charges or at least have knowledge of the specifics of what is being investigated. In many employment contracts there is a clause stating you should make an employer aware if you are accused of a criminal offence, particularly one of dishonesty.

Ultimately it's up to the SNP to decide how to deal with it and they will live or die by the decision electorally.

It’s up to the SNP is totally correct but also this case involves the SNP very closely so all parties will have a clear idea of what is happening.
The SNP will know what happened to the money, so it maybe that it sees no need to suspend anyone.
That would not have been the case with Thomson or Greenwood etc.


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[grunt]

.. which is my point. A clean audit report is no guarantee of accurate accounts.Circular argument, here we are again. So what's the point of auditors?

[Pretty Boy]

Isn't that just how police interviews are done in Scotland? Under caution?
Are you suggesting she's been accused of a criminal offence? That would be newsworthy.

You can be interviewed under caution without being arrested. Been there done it and bought the T shirt. That interview can then end with you being arrested (or as in this case can take place after you have been arrested) or you can be released. It's not uncommon to be invited for interview under caution voluntarily without the need for arrest. You are free to leave a voluntary interview under caution, after arrest you are not free to leave until the Police say so or times up (or at all if you are charged and remanded in custody).

I'd say the fact she was arrested is evidence that she is a suspect in a criminal investigation, part of the arrest procedure is that you are made aware of the reason you are being arrested and the laws you are suspected of breaking. Without that information being disclosed you can't be arrested. The full arrest procedure and criteria for arrest is as below:

Police must:

Identify themselves as the police
Tell you that you’re being arrested
Tell you what crime they think you’ve committed
Explain why it’s necessary to arrest you
Explain to you that you’re not free to leave

[greenginger]

Raising money to fight for independence and spending it on fighting for independence is against the law?

You know it was spent on fighting for independence, you must have inside info.

I’ve no idea what it was spent on or if it was even spent .

[CropleyWasGod]

Circular argument, here we are again. So what's the point of auditors?

https://www.pwc.com/m1/en/services/assurance/what-is-an-audit.html

[Keith_M]

Circular argument, here we are again. So what's the point of auditors?


IMHO, very little.


"EY (Ernst & Young) is now banned from carrying out audits for firms of public interest in Germany for two years following an investigation into the company’s role in the Wirecard collapse."

"German payment processor Wirecard collapsed in 2020 after announcing that there was a €1.9 billion black hole in its accounts and that it was €3.2 billion in debt.

EY served as Wirecard’s auditor and certified its books, even when investors and journalists began to raise questions over the company's stability...."

https://www.fstech.co.uk/fst/EY_Audits_Banned_By_German_Regulator_Over_Wirecard _Scandal.php

[Ozyhibby]

You can be interviewed under caution without being arrested. Been there done it and bought the T shirt. That interview can then end with you being arrested (or as in this case can take place after you have been arrested) or you can be released. It's not uncommon to be invited for interview under caution voluntarily without the need for arrest. You are free to leave a voluntary interview under caution, after arrest you are not free to leave until the Police say so or times up (or at all if you are charged and remanded in custody).

I'd say the fact she was arrested is evidence that she is a suspect in a criminal investigation, part of the arrest procedure is that you are made aware of the reason you are being arrested and the laws you are suspected of breaking. Without that information being disclosed you can't be arrested. The full arrest procedure and criteria for arrest is as below:

Police must:

Identify themselves as the police
Tell you that you’re being arrested
Tell you what crime they think you’ve committed
Explain why it’s necessary to arrest you
Explain to you that you’re not free to leave

I think being arrested helps everyone in that it allows NS’s lawyers access to specific information that the police may have and also the charges she may face? Might explain the confidence of her statement on Sunday night?


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[Berwickhibby]

You can be interviewed under caution without being arrested. Been there done it and bought the T shirt. That interview can then end with you being arrested (or as in this case can take place after you have been arrested) or you can be released. It's not uncommon to be invited for interview under caution voluntarily without the need for arrest. You are free to leave a voluntary interview under caution, after arrest you are not free to leave until the Police say so or times up (or at all if you are charged and remanded in custody).

I'd say the fact she was arrested is evidence that she is a suspect in a criminal investigation, part of the arrest procedure is that you are made aware of the reason you are being arrested and the laws you are suspected of breaking. Without that information being disclosed you can't be arrested. The full arrest procedure and criteria for arrest is as below:

Police must:

Identify themselves as the police
Tell you that you’re being arrested
Tell you what crime they think you’ve committed
Explain why it’s necessary to arrest you
Explain to you that you’re not free to leave

Missed the two most important things, entitlement to legal representation and the caution without those then interview is inadmissible

[Hibrandenburg]

Tried to split up the UK? Surely that would make her an enemy of the state.

I expect some future song writer will create a lyrical song about her escaping 'over the sea to Skye'...

...or at least they would if the Ferries aren't cancelled.












:greengrin

Rubbish, she'll be depicted Boudica like riding a camper van with razor sharp blades on the wheels, ransacking Camulodunum on route to Westminster in her struggle for justice and independence.

[Pretty Boy]

I think being arrested helps everyone in that it allows NS’s lawyers access to specific information that the police may have and also the charges she may face? Might explain the confidence of her statement on Sunday night?


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Yep I don't think saying NS is a suspect is all that controversial. Plenty people who find themselves as suspects are entirely innocent.

As I said above I have been interviewed under caution and whilst I was scoobied as to why I had been invited in as soon as I was there it was clear I was a suspect (though never formalised through arrest) so I didn't speak until I had a lawyer. In the end it was all fairly swiftly resolved but I'm glad I had a professional there with me.

[Mibbes Aye]

Giving money to the SNP to fight a new Independence campaign is just like giving money to the SNP.

Their whole Raison d'être is to achieve Independence for Scotland.

J

If they are forming a government their whole raison d’etre should be to govern, first and foremost. That’s what we, as taxpayers, pay them for.

But that explains why Humza scrapped having a minister for social security and created a minister for independence.

[grunt]

You know it was spent on fighting for independence, you must have inside info.
That's what the SNP do?

[degenerated]

If I remember correctly, the person who first raised the suggestion that money raised by the SNP for independence campaign was neither a member of the SNP or had donated to the fund. It's like he had an agenda against the SNP. He probably posts on here. [emoji6]Sean Clerkin although I think wings over bath did all the spade work. It coincided with his volte face on the SNP after that time he got lifted and his computers seized.

[weecounty hibby]

Sean Clerkin although I think wings over bath did all the spade work. It coincided with his volte face on the SNP after that time he got lifted and his computers seized.

Yip, those fine upstanding folks with no axe to grind. Sean ****ing Clerkin, a nut job of the highest order. A racist ******** thrown out if most sane indy groups. And the rev Stu. Say no more!!

[Hibrandenburg]

If they are forming a government their whole raison d’etre should be to govern, first and foremost. That’s what we, as taxpayers, pay them for.

But that explains why Humza scrapped having a minister for social security and created a minister for independence.

Does the electorate trump the taxpayer? They were voted in on an independence ticket. Most people, certainly SNP supporters think they're doing a decent job of governing.

[degenerated]

Yip, those fine upstanding folks with no axe to grind. Sean ****ing Clerkin, a nut job of the highest order. A racist ******** thrown out if most sane indy groups. And the rev Stu. Say no more!!Sean Clerkin, the go to man for Glenn Campbell when the media want a photo op on nationalist nutters. Like that time with Jim Murphy, never seen anything so staged.

[Just Alf]

If they are forming a government their whole raison d’etre should be to govern, first and foremost. That’s what we, as taxpayers, pay them for.

But that explains why Humza scrapped having a minister for social security and created a minister for independence.

Of all the discussions going on in here today that is a good point, whilst indy was clearly on the manifesto and the SNP were voted in on that manifesto, indy IS part of "day job" but surely a Social Security portfolio is equal, if not more important as a "day job".


Going back.to.the circular argument though :greengrin

The SNP have employed folks to create various papers (gone a bit quiet recently mind) all linked to a future campaign, so arguablycorrectlyspent?, I don't remember seeing anything stating the funds would be stuck in an account and only used to print leaflets, tv advertising or other expenses etc in the run up to an actual vote?

[Bristolhibby]

If they are forming a government their whole raison d’etre should be to govern, first and foremost. That’s what we, as taxpayers, pay them for.

But that explains why Humza scrapped having a minister for social security and created a minister for independence.

But without the drive for Independence they wouldn’t be in existence. You can argue what you like about what takes precedence “Governing” or achieving the aim the party was set up for. But that’s for the electorate to decide. And so far and for the last 12 years the Scottish electorate have delivered a pro Independence majority.

Point is, if that’s “all they’ve got” then it’s flimsy at best.

I’m sure we’ll find out. Police do all sorts of investigations that come to nothing. It’s literally their job.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

But without the drive for Independence they wouldn’t be in existence. You can argue what you like about what takes precedence “Governing” or achieving the aim the party was set up for. But that’s for the electorate to decide. And so far and for the last 12 years the Scottish electorate have delivered a pro Independence majority.

J

Their desire for independence doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. If they were elected to achieve independence they have failed miserably at it. And if they claim to be running the country, they have done a mediocre job at best.

Either way they are tired and failing. The drive for independence would be stronger if it engaged those in other political parties who supported it. But tying it to the SNP is failing the electorate and the taxpayer.

[Mibbes Aye]

But without the drive for Independence they wouldn’t be in existence. You can argue what you like about what takes precedence “Governing” or achieving the aim the party was set up for. But that’s for the electorate to decide. And so far and for the last 12 years the Scottish electorate have delivered a pro Independence majority.

Point is, if that’s “all they’ve got” then it’s flimsy at best.

I’m sure we’ll find out. Police do all sorts of investigations that come to nothing. It’s literally their job.

J

Whats flimsy is doing a poor job at governing, but saying hey, you elected us to achieve independence. So we will just focus on that.

That’s a cop-out.

[Pretty Boy]

Their desire for independence doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. If they were elected to achieve independence they have failed miserably at it. And if they claim to be running the country, they have done a mediocre job at best.

Either way they are tired and failing. The drive for independence would be stronger if it engaged those in other political parties who supported it. But tying it to the SNP is failing the electorate and the taxpayer.

I find the whole SNP/independence thing a bit of a catch 22.

In reality it is true they are the only show in town when it comes to independence but only because the majority of those who support independence have made that the case. There are many people, including on here, who openly admit they will continue to vote SNP regardless of performance until independence is achieved.

Of course supporters will argue independence is bigger than the SNP both as a concept and as a movement but for now it is inextricably tied to the electoral performance of the SNP and the voting behaviours of people on both sides of the debate reflects that. The broad church yes movement that existed in 2014 and the preceding years seems a long time ago now.

The issue is that link between SNP and independence means a vote for anyone other than the SNP would be twisted by some as a vote against independence in the same way any vote for the SNP is viewed as tacit approval of both independence and their record in government. It's why I didn't vote in the last Holyrood election, Scottish politics is gridlocked on a single issue and I didn't want my vote interpreted by either side as something it wasn't.

[Bristolhibby]

Whats flimsy is doing a poor job at governing, but saying hey, you elected us to achieve independence. So we will just focus on that.

That’s a cop-out.

It’s what people keep voting for. Take it up with them.

J

[Skol]

That's what the SNP do?

I think the point you are overlooking is that the fundraiser said the money was being raised for and would be ringfenced to spend on indyref2.

Indyref2 has not happened and is not planned to happen, key all but £97k of the money going by the last accounts remained.

Is it criminal, I have said for a long time I don’t believe it is. Is it honest and transparent. Definitely not.

By all means keep going on defending this, but really the best thing here is for sturgeon, murrell etc to just be honest on the money spent spent and it’s case closed.

[grunt]

Is it criminal, I have said for a long time I don’t believe it is. Is it honest and transparent. Definitely not.

By all means keep going on defending this, but really the best thing here is for sturgeon, murrell etc to just be honest on the money spent spent and it’s case closed.
The use to which the money was put was clearly explained in the SNP accounts. I know it sometimes seems that I bang on about accounts too much, but they are the official record of what the SNP has spent it's money on, and there is a very clear note in the 2021 accounts about this money. You may not agree with what the SNP did, but let's not talk about honesty and transparency - it's there for all to see.

[Ozyhibby]

Their desire for independence doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. If they were elected to achieve independence they have failed miserably at it. And if they claim to be running the country, they have done a mediocre job at best.

Either way they are tired and failing. The drive for independence would be stronger if it engaged those in other political parties who supported it. But tying it to the SNP is failing the electorate and the taxpayer.

In your opinion.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I find the whole SNP/independence thing a bit of a catch 22.

In reality it is true they are the only show in town when it comes to independence but only because the majority of those who support independence have made that the case. There are many people, including on here, who openly admit they will continue to vote SNP regardless of performance until independence is achieved.

Of course supporters will argue independence is bigger than the SNP both as a concept and as a movement but for now it is inextricably tied to the electoral performance of the SNP and the voting behaviours of people on both sides of the debate reflects that. The broad church yes movement that existed in 2014 and the preceding years seems a long time ago now.

The issue is that link between SNP and independence means a vote for anyone other than the SNP would be twisted by some as a vote against independence in the same way any vote for the SNP is viewed as tacit approval of both independence and their record in government. It's why I didn't vote in the last Holyrood election, Scottish politics is gridlocked on a single issue and I didn't want my vote interpreted by either side as something it wasn't.

Yes, and it is a shame for that.

Looking back we had the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly, which sort of evolved into the Constitutional Convention and they were pluralist, far less binary and divisive and as a consequence drew in people of all political persuasions and none.

I’m a rationalist and a pragmatist. I don’t think the current set-up works and I have an instinctive distrust of the “othering” process that often accompanies nationalism (plus I don’t think the models proposed so far would work).

Show me something that chimes with my values and looks like it would work and it will get my vote, whether it comes wrapped in red, yellow,’blue or any other colour. I’m a Labour Party supporter and member but that’s not hardwired into me, they just generally have been closest to my outlook.

[Mibbes Aye]

Of all the discussions going on in here today that is a good point, whilst indy was clearly on the manifesto and the SNP were voted in on that manifesto, indy IS part of "day job" but surely a Social Security portfolio is equal, if not more important as a "day job".


Going back.to.the circular argument though :greengrin

The SNP have employed folks to create various papers (gone a bit quiet recently mind) all linked to a future campaign, so arguablycorrectlyspent?, I don't remember seeing anything stating the funds would be stuck in an account and only used to print leaflets, tv advertising or other expenses etc in the run up to an actual vote?

Thanks for the first part. I couldn’t believe it is just me who thinks it is terrible decision-making and abysmal optics to stop having a minister for social security and replace them with q minister for ‘independence’.

Re your second point it is also worth noting that a team of civil servants were drawn together to work on the independence campaign. That is our money again.

[He's here!]

Their desire for independence doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. If they were elected to achieve independence they have failed miserably at it. And if they claim to be running the country, they have done a mediocre job at best.

Either way they are tired and failing. The drive for independence would be stronger if it engaged those in other political parties who supported it. But tying it to the SNP is failing the electorate and the taxpayer.

Sturgeon's legacy is, in truth, exceedingly thin.

I guess maintaining the 100% record of former SNP First Ministers to be arrested is at least something to remember her by :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon's legacy is, in truth, exceedingly thin.

I guess maintaining the 100% record of former SNP First Ministers to be arrested is at least something to remember her by :wink:

And it will be 100% not guilty as well. I’m sure Yousaf will be next.


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[He's here!]

And it will be 100% not guilty as well. I’m sure Yousaf will be next.


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Salmond must be quietly regarding all this as a bit of karma.

[WhileTheChief..]

Their desire for independence doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. If they were elected to achieve independence they have failed miserably at it. And if they claim to be running the country, they have done a mediocre job at best.

Either way they are tired and failing. The drive for independence would be stronger if it engaged those in other political parties who supported it. But tying it to the SNP is failing the electorate and the taxpayer.

They will ever do any more than this. They need to be able to say "we need Indy for xxx to be better".

If our economy, NHS, education system etc were running above par under the SNP, the public would then rightly ask why do we need Indy.

It's why they are so dangerous in government. The better they do at governing, the less likely the country will vote for Indy.

[Ozyhibby]

They will ever do any more than this. They need to be able to say "we need Indy for xxx to be better".

If our economy, NHS, education system etc were running above par under the SNP, the public would then rightly ask why do we need Indy.

It's why they are so dangerous in government. The better they do at governing, the less likely the country will vote for Indy.

That makes no sense. The fact is the SNP have had to manage 13 years of Tory austerity and they have done so while providing the best govt in the UK.


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[Skol]

The use to which the money was put was clearly explained in the SNP accounts. I know it sometimes seems that I bang on about accounts too much, but they are the official record of what the SNP has spent it's money on, and there is a very clear note in the 2021 accounts about this money. You may not agree with what the SNP did, but let's not talk about honesty and transparency - it's there for all to see.

If that is the case why don’t they just say the money wasn’t ringfenced and was spent on general snp expenditure. That’s clearly what has happened.

[weecounty hibby]

They will ever do any more than this. They need to be able to say "we need Indy for xxx to be better".

If our economy, NHS, education system etc were running above par under the SNP, the public would then rightly ask why do we need Indy.

It's why they are so dangerous in government. The better they do at governing, the less likely the country will vote for Indy.

Yip, so dangerous in government that our public services perform better than the rest of the UK. Could they be better? Of course they could. But remember that almost 700m per year is spent counteracting Tory austerity policies.

[JimBHibees]

Sturgeon's legacy is, in truth, exceedingly thin.

I guess maintaining the 100% record of former SNP First Ministers to be arrested is at least something to remember her by :wink:

Not so sure. I think in the main they have governed well over her time. Sure they could have done better however you need to take into account Austerity policies from down south, covid pandemic putting an enormous burden on an already over stretched NHS likely in some part down to losing foreign staff due to Brexit plus a government down south supported by media allies hellbent on undermining them. Her election record is an excellent one also.

[Ozyhibby]

Not so sure. I think in the main they have governed well over her time. Sure they could have done better however you need to take into account Austerity policies from down south, covid pandemic putting an enormous burden on an already over stretched NHS likely in some part down to losing foreign staff due to Brexit plus a government down south supported by media allies hellbent on undermining them. Her election record is an excellent one also.

I think most reasonable people can see that which is why she is still popular.


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[greenginger]

And it will be 100% not guilty as well. I’m sure Yousaf will be next.


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Did Salmond not have one charge Not Proven ?

Remember too that it was not the British State that put Salmond in the dock but his own SNP party.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotlands-murder-rate-falls-to-lowest-level-since-modern-records-began

Well done the SG.


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[Kato]

Did Salmond not have one charge Not Proven ?

Remember too that it was not the British State that put Salmond in the dock but his own SNP party.Wasn't it the police?

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[Ozyhibby]

Did Salmond not have one charge Not Proven ?

Remember too that it was not the British State that put Salmond in the dock but his own SNP party.

Absolute nonsense.


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[greenginger]

Absolute nonsense.


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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Advocate_v_Salmond#:~:text=On%2023%20March%20Sa lmond%20was,alleged%20victims%20in%20the%20case.


Not guilty on 12 charges , not proven on one charge .

Not 100% not guilty and not absolute nonsense.

[Ozyhibby]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Advocate_v_Salmond#:~:text=On%2023%20March%20Sa lmond%20was,alleged%20victims%20in%20the%20case.


Not guilty on 12 charges , not proven on one charge .

Not 100% not guilty and not absolute nonsense.

I was talking about your claim the SNP put him in the dock. That was a matter for Police Scotland and the PF which was a ridiculously bad decision. Like the mess with Rangers administrators. And like the current ness they are getting themselves in with the help of the NCA. Overdue some reform I think.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Remember too that it was not the British State that put Salmond in the dock but his own SNP party.

If by the SNP you actually mean Leslie Evans, the adviser to Nicola Sturgeon which is a UK (not Scottish) Civil Servant appointed role.

[Hibbyradge]

Salmond must be quietly regarding all this as a bit of karma.

His fingerprints are all over this, imo.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

[147lothian]

I was talking about your claim the SNP put him in the dock. That was a matter for Police Scotland and the PF which was a ridiculously bad decision. Like the mess with Rangers administrators. And like the current ness they are getting themselves in with the help of the NCA. Overdue some reform I think.


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The SNP did put Alex Salmond in the dock and how spineless was it of Nicola Sturgeon to use a Covid press conference to question the jury when Alex Salmond got the Not Guilty verdict.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws7pR5DtctM

[He's here!]

The SNP did put Alex Salmond in the dock and how spineless was it of Nicola Sturgeon to use a Covid press conference to question the jury when Alex Salmond got the Not Guilty verdict.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws7pR5DtctM

She certainly sailed close to the wind by questioning the integrity of the verdict.

[He's here!]

I was talking about your claim the SNP put him in the dock. That was a matter for Police Scotland and the PF which was a ridiculously bad decision. Like the mess with Rangers administrators. And like the current ness they are getting themselves in with the help of the NCA. Overdue some reform I think.


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In the Rangers case, that line would work as a deflection for those (many) who remain unclear about the role of the Lord Advocate. As well as being head of the prosecution service (the Crown Office) the LA is a political appointee, a minister in the Scottish Government and essentially their own lawyer. Hence James Wolffe's grovelling admission and apology over that 'illegal and malicious' prosecution which has cost Scottish taxpayers around £40 million IIRC.

Echoes of the 'tainted' and 'unawful' findings of the botched civil service inquiry into the Salmond allegations conducted by Leslie Evans who (on behalf of the SG) pursued the hopeless case against him in the Court of Session, which cost the taxpayer half a million pounds. That may not have been directly related to the decision to prosecute Salmond but the Police Scotland investigation was triggered by Evans' decision to send the results of the SG's internal inquiry to the police.

[archie]

I was talking about your claim the SNP put him in the dock. That was a matter for Police Scotland and the PF which was a ridiculously bad decision. Like the mess with Rangers administrators. And like the current ness they are getting themselves in with the help of the NCA. Overdue some reform I think.


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I'd advise posters not to dive into this too much. A blogger went to jail for contempt of court on the basis he revealed aspects of the case.

[Mibbes Aye]

I was talking about your claim the SNP put him in the dock. That was a matter for Police Scotland and the PF which was a ridiculously bad decision. Like the mess with Rangers administrators. And like the current ness they are getting themselves in with the help of the NCA. Overdue some reform I think.


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If the police and the PF are overdue some reform what have the Scottish Government been doing about it for the last 16 years?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'd advise posters not to dive into this too much. A blogger went to jail for contempt of court on the basis he revealed aspects of the case.

That was during the case while it was on going. There is no "contempt of court" law that applies to talking about cases that have already been concluded.

[Smartie]

I'd advise posters not to dive into this too much. A blogger went to jail for contempt of court on the basis he revealed aspects of the case.

https://twitter.com/IanMurrayMP/status/1667904770764419073?cxt=HHwWgsC9yaqjy6UuAAAA

Is it entirely responsible for Ian Murray to be demanding that Humza Yousaf "tells Scotland what he knows" about a matter that is subject to an ongoing police investigation then?

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/IanMurrayMP/status/1667904770764419073?cxt=HHwWgsC9yaqjy6UuAAAA

Is it entirely responsible for Ian Murray to be demanding that Humza Yousaf "tells Scotland what he knows" about a matter that is subject to an ongoing police investigation then?

To be fair if you are demanding that Humza tells you what he knows, then you don’t need to clear your diary for the next ten minutes, let alone the day :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair if you are demanding that Humza tells you what he knows, then you don’t need to clear your diary for the next ten minutes, let alone the day :greengrin

Doesn’t say much for Sarwar then that he can’t lay a glove on him every week at FMQ’s.[emoji23]


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[archie]

That was during the case while it was on going. There is no "contempt of court" law that applies to talking about cases that have already been concluded.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56170459

[Mibbes Aye]

Doesn’t say much for Sarwar then that he can’t lay a glove on him every week at FMQ’s.[emoji23]


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I cant comment. I gave FMQs a shot a couple of years back and it went something like

Other party leader: “Would the First Minister agree she is a numpty?”
First Minister: “I will accept no accusations of numptiness from (insert name). He is the real numpty”
etc etc

That was enough for me. PMQs can be lame at times but at least occasionally you get the chance of a BoJo sowing the seeds of his own downfall by lying to the House.

Donald Dewar must be looking down with a weary sigh......

[He's here!]

I cant comment. I gave FMQs a shot a couple of years back and it went something like

Other party leader: “Would the First Minister agree she is a numpty?”
First Minister: “I will accept no accusations of numptiness from (insert name). He is the real numpty”
etc etc

That was enough for me. PMQs can be lame at times but at least occasionally you get the chance of a BoJo sowing the seeds of his own downfall by lying to the House.

Donald Dewar must be looking down with a weary sigh......

Both are awful. PMQs is pantomime point scoring and FMQs soporific. Required viewing for political nerds only.

[JimBHibees]

To be fair if you are demanding that Humza tells you what he knows, then you don’t need to clear your diary for the next ten minutes, let alone the day :greengrin

Bit like Murray himself unless he wants to discuss his latest union Jack clothing choice :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

I cant comment. I gave FMQs a shot a couple of years back and it went something like

Other party leader: “Would the First Minister agree she is a numpty?”
First Minister: “I will accept no accusations of numptiness from (insert name). He is the real numpty”
etc etc

That was enough for me. PMQs can be lame at times but at least occasionally you get the chance of a BoJo sowing the seeds of his own downfall by lying to the House.

Donald Dewar must be looking down with a weary sigh......

Is it even broadcast?

[Smartie]

I cant comment. I gave FMQs a shot a couple of years back and it went something like

Other party leader: “Would the First Minister agree she is a numpty?”
First Minister: “I will accept no accusations of numptiness from (insert name). He is the real numpty”
etc etc

That was enough for me. PMQs can be lame at times but at least occasionally you get the chance of a BoJo sowing the seeds of his own downfall by lying to the House.

Donald Dewar must be looking down with a weary sigh......

Obviously it will have it’s highs and lows but I remembering watching it one time in particular a few years ago and the debate in particular between Sturgeon, Davidson and Dugdale being respectful, honest and light years ahead of Westminster debate. It’s probably not a surprise that it’s inferior now, given the relative inferiority of all the current incumbents.

I don’t really care if it isn’t entertaining.

[He's here!]

Call for new transport minister to be a senior role - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65877290)

Hard to fathom why this isn't already a senior role.

[He's here!]

Obviously it will have it’s highs and lows but I remembering watching it one time in particular a few years ago and the debate in particular between Sturgeon, Davidson and Dugdale being respectful, honest and light years ahead of Westminster debate. It’s probably not a surprise that it’s inferior now, given the relative inferiority of all the current incumbents.

I don’t really care if it isn’t entertaining.

Davidson was the only one who could rile Sturgeon and spark something approaching a debate. From what I remember Goldie could go toe to toe with Salmond as well but I didn't watch it much.

[JimBHibees]

Obviously it will have it’s highs and lows but I remembering watching it one time in particular a few years ago and the debate in particular between Sturgeon, Davidson and Dugdale being respectful, honest and light years ahead of Westminster debate. It’s probably not a surprise that it’s inferior now, given the relative inferiority of all the current incumbents.

I don’t really care if it isn’t entertaining.

Tend to agree watched it a few times admittedly a few years back and thought it was night and day from the bearpit of Westminster heckling

[Mibbes Aye]

Both are awful. PMQs is pantomime point scoring and FMQs soporific. Required viewing for political nerds only.

There is far too much weight attached to PMQs by the media but as much as anything it gives them something to fill the bandwidth or the column inches.

Sometimes you do see a deeper approach at play though. A good Opposition should use Qs to find its best attack lines, and likewise a sitting leader should find their best counters.

Starmer’s best lines come from knowing the detail about the impact of the cost of loving crisis. It creates a difference between him and Sunak and reminds observers indirectly that Sunak is incredibly wealthy and therefore can’t relate to ordinary people.

Sunak is still searching for his best counter. Talking about unfunded promises plays into a powerful narrative about Labour being profligate, but the Tories lost any credibility on the economy after the Truss Experiment. When Rishi starts using Corbyn (like BoJo did), it doesn’t land because there is a set narrative that Starmer and the party are ruthlessly getting rid of any hint of Corbynism.

Where Starmer has been most quietly effective is when he talks to those sitting behind Sunak, highlighting the fractures they already feel. So when Starmer talks about the Tories 43 tax rises or whatever, it is not because he is low-tax or that he thinks the public are low-tax, it is because he knows Fory backbencher are low-tax and highlighting it helps cause disunity amongst the Tories. And disunity is a massive vote-loser.

So, bringing it back to FMQs, there is probably a lesson for the other leaders. FMQs are meant to be about holding the First Minister of the day to account. Exploiting the divisions behind the FM would seem sensible - as the leadership election showed, the SNP has lot of differentiation in the views of the party members, and to an extent, the MSPs.

[Mibbes Aye]

Bit like Murray himself unless he wants to discuss his latest union Jack clothing choice :greengrin

Oi, find your own gags! None of that cross-party consensus here :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Is it even broadcast?

FMQs?

It is on BBC Parliament I think, not sure if Sky News or BBC News 24 cut to it but don’t think so.

[147lothian]

She certainly sailed close to the wind by questioning the integrity of the verdict.

I was surprised Nicola Sturgeon wasn't arrested for misleading parliament after Alex Salmon's not guilty verdict. No matter what anyone thinks of Alex Salmond, what he was put through by Nicola Sturgeon is unforgivable, a man of his age facing jail time and she questions the jury's verdict, it shows Nicola Sturgeon's true character.

[Ozyhibby]

There is far too much weight attached to PMQs by the media but as much as anything it gives them something to fill the bandwidth or the column inches.

Sometimes you do see a deeper approach at play though. A good Opposition should use Qs to find its best attack lines, and likewise a sitting leader should find their best counters.

Starmer’s best lines come from knowing the detail about the impact of the cost of loving crisis. It creates a difference between him and Sunak and reminds observers indirectly that Sunak is incredibly wealthy and therefore can’t relate to ordinary people.

Sunak is still searching for his best counter. Talking about unfunded promises plays into a powerful narrative about Labour being profligate, but the Tories lost any credibility on the economy after the Truss Experiment. When Rishi starts using Corbyn (like BoJo did), it doesn’t land because there is a set narrative that Starmer and the party are ruthlessly getting rid of any hint of Corbynism.

Where Starmer has been most quietly effective is when he talks to those sitting behind Sunak, highlighting the fractures they already feel. So when Starmer talks about the Tories 43 tax rises or whatever, it is not because he is low-tax or that he thinks the public are low-tax, it is because he knows Fory backbencher are low-tax and highlighting it helps cause disunity amongst the Tories. And disunity is a massive vote-loser.

So, bringing it back to FMQs, there is probably a lesson for the other leaders. FMQs are meant to be about holding the First Minister of the day to account. Exploiting the divisions behind the FM would seem sensible - as the leadership election showed, the SNP has lot of differentiation in the views of the party members, and to an extent, the MSPs.

Starmer is a far better performer than Sarwar. Sarwar can often ask good questions but doesn’t know what to do when they are answered and heads back to scripted lines.


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[Ozyhibby]

FMQs?

It is on BBC Parliament I think, not sure if Sky News or BBC News 24 cut to it but don’t think so.

It’s on BBC Scotland.


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[JimBHibees]

FMQs?

It is on BBC Parliament I think, not sure if Sky News or BBC News 24 cut to it but don’t think so.

Yes Fmqs think it should be on terrestrial TV.

[JimBHibees]

It’s on BBC Scotland.


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Ok cheers

[JimBHibees]

I was surprised Nicola Sturgeon wasn't arrested for misleading parliament after Alex Salmon's not guilty verdict. No matter what anyone thinks of Alex Salmond, what he was put through by Nicola Sturgeon is unforgivable, a man of his age facing jail time and she questions the jury's verdict, it shows Nicola Sturgeon's true character.

He was facing very serious allegations she would have been crucified if he hadn't been reported

[weecounty hibby]

I was surprised Nicola Sturgeon wasn't arrested for misleading parliament after Alex Salmon's not guilty verdict. No matter what anyone thinks of Alex Salmond, what he was put through by Nicola Sturgeon is unforgivable, a man of his age facing jail time and she questions the jury's verdict, it shows Nicola Sturgeon's true character.

So are you saying that when he approached her asking for it to be swept under the carpet she should have e done that? Serious allegations of a sexual nature were made and you think that she done him over by reporting it? And it was ok due to his age? Interesting moral compass you have there

[CropleyWasGod]

I was surprised Nicola Sturgeon wasn't arrested for misleading parliament after Alex Salmon's not guilty verdict. No matter what anyone thinks of Alex Salmond, what he was put through by Nicola Sturgeon is unforgivable, a man of his age facing jail time and she questions the jury's verdict, it shows Nicola Sturgeon's true character.

Politicians may be duplicitous, but I'm pretty sure that's not a crime yet.

[Pretty Boy]

So are you saying that when he approached her asking for it to be swept under the carpet she should have e done that? Serious allegations of a sexual nature were made and you think that she done him over by reporting it? And it was ok due to his age? Interesting moral compass you have there

I have to say I'm a bit confused at that as well.

He was 62/63 when the allegations came to light and he went to trial, was still working then and continues to work now. He was hardly verging on mentally incapable due to advanced age. I'm not sure there should be an upper age limit for investigating any crimes, but especially those against the person and of a violent and/or sexual nature. It's almost always in the public interest to prosecute in such cases and justice should be allowed to take it's course.

I thought NS was evasive, if not downright dishonest, when it came to the timeline of events and I still don't believe she 'couldn't recall' when she was first made aware of the allegations but ultimately refusing to bury them was the right thing to do and she should be commended for that.

[He's here!]

He was facing very serious allegations she would have been crucified if he hadn't been reported

That's not what he means. He's referring to Sturgeon being accused of breaching the ministerial code by allegedly questioning the integrity of the jury (the majority of whom were women). At one of her Covid briefings (at which she would regularly claim she wasn't there to discuss politics...unless it suited her) she said something along the lines that Salmond may have been cleared of criminality but that didn't mean what his accusers claimed hadn't happened. Whatever your personal opinion (and she and Salmond clearly despise each other) it's dangerous talk in the extreme to imply someone is still in the wrong despite being cleared by a jury.

[He's here!]

I have to say I'm a bit confused at that as well.

He was 62/63 when the allegations came to light and he went to trial, was still working then and continues to work now. He was hardly verging on mentally incapable due to advanced age. I'm not sure there should be an upper age limit for investigating any crimes, but especially those against the person and of a violent and/or sexual nature. It's almost always in the public interest to prosecute in such cases and justice should be allowed to take it's course.

I thought NS was evasive, if not downright dishonest, when it came to the timeline of events and I still don't believe she 'couldn't recall' when she was first made aware of the allegations but ultimately refusing to bury them was the right thing to do and she should be commended for that.

She's good at that sort of stuff.

January 22nd: I've still got plenty fuel in the tank and I'm nowhere near stepping down.

February 15th: I'm resigning (and it's got nothing to do with the impending ****storm I know is coming down the line, nothing at all. Nope, I'm just tired).

[grunt]

... she said something along the lines that Salmond may have been cleared of criminality but that didn't mean what his accusers claimed hadn't happened.
Seems a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

[He's here!]

Seems a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Not when someone has been found innocent of all charges in the eyes of the law. Maintaining confidence in the judicial system and the rule of law is something you'd expect a First Minister to respect. From what I recall, it went no further than a complaint against her but it struck me as an irresponsible thing to say and probably betrayed her frustration at the monumental ****-up they'd made of the civil service disciplinary inquiry which really hung Salmond's accusers out to dry.

[grunt]

Not when someone has been found innocent of all charges in the eyes of the law. Maintaining confidence in the judicial system and the rule of law is something you'd expect a First Minister to respect. From what I recall, it went no further than a complaint against her but it struck me as an irresponsible thing to say and probably betrayed her frustration at the monumental ****-up they'd made of the civil service disciplinary inquiry which really hung Salmond's accusers out to dry.
Still true though, eh?

[Kato]

Still true though, eh?A time when everyone's taxes were going towards paying for a war which was fought to save the toffs place in the world, while the toffs paid zero taxes.

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[grunt]

This has been obvious for some time, but good to see it getting an airing in the media:

https://t.co/wyLST4ABbg


The total cost of the police probe into the SNP’s finances is MORE than the 'missing' amount under investigation

Still, what price integrity, eh?

[Pretty Boy]

This has been obvious for some time, but good to see it getting an airing in the media:

https://t.co/wyLST4ABbg



Still, what price integrity, eh?

I don't really get why that's relevant.

If someone mugged my daughter and stole £20 from her I'd still want the proper justice process to be followed regardless of whether the cost was greater than the sum stolen.

For a variety of reasons criminal investigations are expensive but it's surely in the interests of all parties that they are seen through to a conclusion. If Police Scotland walked away because it was 'costing too much' it provides all kinds of ammunition for those who want to scream cover up.

[Mibbes Aye]

This has been obvious for some time, but good to see it getting an airing in the media:

https://t.co/wyLST4ABbg



Still, what price integrity, eh?

If we are to keep our democracy, there must be one commandment - thou shalt not ration justice

[Ozyhibby]

If we are to keep our democracy, there must be one commandment - thou shalt not ration justice

[emoji23]


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[He's here!]

Still true though, eh?

Is it? He's an innocent man (much as I can't stand him).

[Since90+2]

This has been obvious for some time, but good to see it getting an airing in the media:

https://t.co/wyLST4ABbg



Still, what price integrity, eh?

That's completely irrelevant.

It's pretty obvious why, as PB has said.

[He's here!]

I don't really get why that's relevant.

If someone mugged my daughter and stole £20 from her I'd still want the proper justice process to be followed regardless of whether the cost was greater than the sum stolen.

For a variety of reasons criminal investigations are expensive but it's surely in the interests of all parties that they are seen through to a conclusion. If Police Scotland walked away because it was 'costing too much' it provides all kinds of ammunition for those who want to scream cover up.

The only reason this has been raised is because Saint Nicola's halo has been tarnished.

I note Keith Brown organised for flowers to be sent to her today as 'a mark of sympathy for everything she's been through'. Utterly bizarre.

Wonder if the card shops have a 'Sorry to hear you've been arrested' range in the sympathy section.

[Mibbes Aye]

[emoji23]


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What's funny about that?

[Ozyhibby]

What's funny about that?

It’s a nice sentiment but in the modern UK political scene, that’s all it is.


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[grunt]

It was worth posting just to watch all the pompous replies on here! :greengrin

"The price of justice cannot be measured in pounds, shillings and pence".

The same people who post about the cost of living crisis and how there's never enough money for the NHS. Always find money to go after the SNP though, eh?

[grunt]

Is it? He's an innocent man (much as I can't stand him).Which is what she said, he's innocent under the law. We agree.

[grunt]

I note Keith Brown organised for flowers to be sent to her today as 'a mark of sympathy for everything she's been through'. Utterly bizarre.
Not bizarre at all. I was thinking of doing the same.

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s a nice sentiment but in the modern UK political scene, that’s all it is.


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It’s ******* Sophocles, it’s 2,500 years old! Let’s see how our posts hold up in 4,523 CE :greengrin

Anyway I would say it doesn’t just stand the test of time, it actually underpins what we would like to think are our values here and now. That’s why we have legal aid, or what’s left of it. That’s why you are entitled to free legal advice if arrested.

It is much, much more than a nice sentiment. And bear in mind that our “political scene” today has a direct bloodline back to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. In fact given the debates on here about devolution etc it has probably rarely been so relevant.

[Berwickhibby]

The only reason this has been raised is because Saint Nicola's halo has been tarnished.

I note Keith Brown organised for flowers to be sent to her today as 'a mark of sympathy for everything she's been through'. Utterly bizarre.

Wonder if the card shops have a 'Sorry to hear you've been arrested' range in the sympathy section.

Hopefully the next thing he organises for Sturgeon is a cake… with a file in it :greengrin

[grunt]

Hopefully the next thing he organises for Sturgeon is a cake… with a file in it :greengrinThat's actually quite amusing.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not when someone has been found innocent of all charges in the eyes of the law. Maintaining confidence in the judicial system and the rule of law is something you'd expect a First Minister to respect. From what I recall, it went no further than a complaint against her but it struck me as an irresponsible thing to say and probably betrayed her frustration at the monumental ****-up they'd made of the civil service disciplinary inquiry which really hung Salmond's accusers out to dry.

I'm sure you'll be the first on here to apologise for all your insinuations when the police confirm there will be no charges made against Sturgeon.

[He's here!]

Which is what she said, he's innocent under the law. We agree.

If that was all she'd said then I'd say we agree.

[147lothian]

So are you saying that when he approached her asking for it to be swept under the carpet she should have e done that? Serious allegations of a sexual nature were made and you think that she done him over by reporting it? And it was ok due to his age? Interesting moral compass you have there

So what I'm saying is that when a man is found innocent of all charges, in a trial by jury, that Nicola Sturgeon should not be questioning the integrity of the jury verdict, remember that she did this straight after the verdict was announced during a Covid briefing, doing so is breaching ministerial conduct, and calling into question trial by jury after due process was concluded, not what you expect from a First Minister, and very disrespectful to the jury most of whom were women.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So what I'm saying is that when a man is is found innocent of all charges, in a trial by jury, that Nicola Sturgeon should not be questioning the integrity of the jury verdict, remember that she did this straight after the verdict was announced during a Covid briefing, doing so is breaching ministerial conduct, and calling into question trial by jury after due process was concluded, not what you expect from a First Minister, and very disrespectful to the jury most of whom were women.

Was it not unionist media throwing the questions about Alex Salmond her way? Sure, she could have refused to answer them. But then she would have been hung, drawn and quartered for that instead.

[JimBHibees]

That's not what he means. He's referring to Sturgeon being accused of breaching the ministerial code by allegedly questioning the integrity of the jury (the majority of whom were women). At one of her Covid briefings (at which she would regularly claim she wasn't there to discuss politics...unless it suited her) she said something along the lines that Salmond may have been cleared of criminality but that didn't mean what his accusers claimed hadn't happened. Whatever your personal opinion (and she and Salmond clearly despise each other) it's dangerous talk in the extreme to imply someone is still in the wrong despite being cleared by a jury.

Can't see an issue with what she said. Nothing dangerous about it.

[He's here!]

His fingerprints are all over this, imo.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Alex Salmond: SNP risks 'extinction' over view it struggles to 'run a tap' under Humza Yousaf | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/politics/alex-salmond-snp-risks-extinction-over-view-it-struggles-to-run-a-tap-under-humza-yousaf)

'I take no satisfaction over their trials and tribulations'. Uh huh.

[Ozyhibby]

Alex Salmond: SNP risks 'extinction' over view it struggles to 'run a tap' under Humza Yousaf | STV News (https://news.stv.tv/politics/alex-salmond-snp-risks-extinction-over-view-it-struggles-to-run-a-tap-under-humza-yousaf)

He used to be such a sharp political operator. Just looks sad these days.


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[Pretty Boy]

I don't get what Salmond's end game is.

He must realise by now that Alba is never going to be any more than a fringe party that offers a home to the real lunatics of the independence movement. Surely he doesn't believe he is going to ride back in as some white knight for a 3rd stint as SNP leader.

He just seems like a sad, embittered man desperately trying to appear relevant. A shame as in his heyday he was a real political heavyweight and I genuinely think the independence movement would be in better shape if he was still playing a key role.

[Kato]

He used to be such a sharp political operator. Just looks sad these days.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhen the roubles dry up it leaves a bitter taste.

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[Smartie]

I don't get what Salmond's end game is.

He must realise by now that Alba is never going to be any more than a fringe party that offers a home to the real lunatics of the independence movement. Surely he doesn't believe he is going to ride back in as some white knight for a 3rd stint as SNP leader.

He just seems like a sad, embittered man desperately trying to appear relevant. A shame as in his heyday he was a real political heavyweight and I genuinely think the independence movement would be in better shape if he was still playing a key role.

It's starting to look like the feud that developed between Sturgeon and Salmond (then all that stemmed from that) has been the most significant blow landed on the independence movement since the referendum. These things always seem to be self-inflicted.

[He's here!]

I don't get what Salmond's end game is.

He must realise by now that Alba is never going to be any more than a fringe party that offers a home to the real lunatics of the independence movement. Surely he doesn't believe he is going to ride back in as some white knight for a 3rd stint as SNP leader.

He just seems like a sad, embittered man desperately trying to appear relevant. A shame as in his heyday he was a real political heavyweight and I genuinely think the independence movement would be in better shape if he was still playing a key role.

It would never have become the movement it did without him. His presence at the head of it used to worry No voters far more than Sturgeon ever did.

I had wondered if Sturgeon quitting would see him tone down the rhetoric in favour of perhaps trying to build bridges and give Alba some leverage, but it seems not.

[Ozyhibby]

It's starting to look like the feud that developed between Sturgeon and Salmond (then all that stemmed from that) has been the most significant blow landed on the independence movement since the referendum. These things always seem to be self-inflicted.

Still about 50% of the country want Indy. Where is this blow?


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[He's here!]

It's starting to look like the feud that developed between Sturgeon and Salmond (then all that stemmed from that) has been the most significant blow landed on the independence movement since the referendum. These things always seem to be self-inflicted.

Salmond disagrees with Yousaf on Sturgeon's legacy and calls for change (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/salmond-disagrees-with-yousaf-on-sturgeon-s-legacy-and-calls-for-change/ar-AA1cxyzu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a7f9d17f0e8c40c1a1ec7b2c2ca90b33&ei=9)

Salmond said: "She's left a difficult policy agenda in the Scots Parliament, full of, you know, pretty absurd and silly policies like self-identification (https://news.sky.com/story/gender-reform-bill-uk-government-to-contest-scottish-governments-legal-bid-12872875), closing fishing areas, bottle schemes (https://news.sky.com/story/deposit-return-scheme-scotlands-controversial-recycling-initiative-delayed-until-at-least-october-2025-12897326), [and] abolishing some trials by jury (https://news.sky.com/story/scottish-government-accused-of-interfering-in-independence-of-judiciary-as-lawyers-set-to-boycott-juryless-rape-trials-pilot-12877033).
"Now, you're never going to get a majority of Scots behind such policies, and my strong advice to Humza Yousaf is to sweep that nonsense away."

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/holyrood-sources/id1673972192?i=1000616932159

Salmond’s interview on Holyrood sources. Haven’t listened yet but about to close laptop and head to garden with a beer to enjoy. Holyrood sources the best of the Scottish political podcasts.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1668966493265047552?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Ballsy from Yousaf but I like it. Time for him to get a grip of the party.


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[Smartie]

Still about 50% of the country want Indy. Where is this blow?


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That it isn't higher?

50%, whilst decentish, still isn't getting the job done.

Don't you think that a fractured party/ movement, competing visions, the Salmond court case, the current ongoing issue have been in any way harmful?

I'd argue that they've had significantly more impact on the current polling figures than any positive case for the union proposed by any of the opposition parties.

[Smartie]

Salmond disagrees with Yousaf on Sturgeon's legacy and calls for change (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/salmond-disagrees-with-yousaf-on-sturgeon-s-legacy-and-calls-for-change/ar-AA1cxyzu?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a7f9d17f0e8c40c1a1ec7b2c2ca90b33&ei=9)

Salmond said: "She's left a difficult policy agenda in the Scots Parliament, full of, you know, pretty absurd and silly policies like self-identification (https://news.sky.com/story/gender-reform-bill-uk-government-to-contest-scottish-governments-legal-bid-12872875), closing fishing areas, bottle schemes (https://news.sky.com/story/deposit-return-scheme-scotlands-controversial-recycling-initiative-delayed-until-at-least-october-2025-12897326), [and] abolishing some trials by jury (https://news.sky.com/story/scottish-government-accused-of-interfering-in-independence-of-judiciary-as-lawyers-set-to-boycott-juryless-rape-trials-pilot-12877033).
"Now, you're never going to get a majority of Scots behind such policies, and my strong advice to Humza Yousaf is to sweep that nonsense away."

I liked Sturgeon (still do) but I find it hard to argue that Salmond isn't correct here.

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1668966493265047552?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Ballsy from Yousaf but I like it. Time for him to get a grip of the party.I think this is quite tightly aimed at Alex Neil and Jo Cherry. Both of whom I'd be quite content to see joining Alba.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1668966493265047552?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Ballsy from Yousaf but I like it. Time for him to get a grip of the party.


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Bold indeed, but just a hint of John 15:13 there perhaps?

It’s good you like to see a firm leader, not afraid to show miscreants the door. Have you considered upgrading to the man-size version? :greengrin


26878

[Smartie]

Bold indeed, but just a hint of John 15:13 there perhaps?

It’s good you like to see a firm leader, not afraid to show miscreants the door. Have you considered upgrading to the man-size version? :greengrin


26878

Call me petty but I'm really struggling to see beyond that maroon tie now.

[archie]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1668966493265047552?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Ballsy from Yousaf but I like it. Time for him to get a grip of the party.


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That's mad. Why would he do that? If she was charged and found guilty that would put him in an untenable position. I really don't understand the approach here at all. And it could be construed as putting pressure on Police scotland and COPFS!

[He's here!]

That it isn't higher?

50%, whilst decentish, still isn't getting the job done.

Don't you think that a fractured party/ movement, competing visions, the Salmond court case, the current ongoing issue have been in any way harmful?

I'd argue that they've had significantly more impact on the current polling figures than any positive case for the union proposed by any of the opposition parties.

The mess they're in at the moment certainly won't help move the dial on independence (and it never really moved under Sturgeon anyway), but for as long as the Tories are in power you could probably stick a set of shop dummies in place of the SNP MPs and MSPs at Westminster and Holyrood and their core vote would hold up. As Salmond points out, despite a host of daft and mismanaged policies and a pretty dismal record on the ones that actually matter to most voters, independence is the only show in town for SNP devotees. That's how little actual politics impacts on the ballot box in Scotland these days.

As somebody else has pointed out on here, mediocrity also suits the SNP's agenda because for the majority of their tenure they've had the 'our hands are tied by the Tory government' card to fall back on. The problem there, though, is that for the other half of the Scottish electorate who can't stand the SNP and don't see independence as a magical cure-all such a one-dimensional approach is hardly going to attract new Yes voters.

I'm pinning my hopes on a Labour government providing some impetus to break this stale, stifling impasse.

[Ozyhibby]

Bold indeed, but just a hint of John 15:13 there perhaps?

It’s good you like to see a firm leader, not afraid to show miscreants the door. Have you considered upgrading to the man-size version? :greengrin


26878

I was just about to post that it was Starmer-ish.[emoji23]


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[JimBHibees]

The mess they're in at the moment certainly won't help move the dial on independence (and it never really moved under Sturgeon anyway), but for as long as the Tories are in power you could probably stick a set of shop dummies in place of the SNP MPs and MSPs at Westminster and Holyrood and their core vote would hold up. As Salmond points out, despite a host of daft and mismanaged policies and a pretty dismal record on the ones that actually matter to most voters, independence is the only show in town for SNP devotees. That's how little actual politics impacts on the ballot box in Scotland these days.

As somebody else has pointed out on here, mediocrity also suits the SNP's agenda because for the majority of their tenure they've had the 'our hands are tied by the Tory government' card to fall back on. The problem there, though, is that for the other half of the Scottish electorate who can't stand the SNP and don't see independence as a magical cure-all such a one-dimensional approach is hardly going to attract new Yes voters.

I'm pinning my hopes on a Labour government providing some impetus to break this stale, stifling impasse.

So a Tory wanting Labour to win the election. Classic divide and conquer :confused:

[He's here!]

So a Tory wanting Labour to win the election. Classic divide and conquer :confused:

Until the independence issue became a thing I'd actually always voted Labour. Still do, but have used my second vote in Holyrood elections tactically as a means to deny an SNP majority, so yeh, like many other No voters I've used my list vote for the Tories and will continue to do so if required. That's kind of the point I was making though ie political allegiance has become shaped around the paralysing and polarising independence sludgefest we've been bogged down by.

[Ozyhibby]

Until the independence issue became a thing I'd actually always voted Labour. Still do, but have used my second vote in Holyrood elections tactically as a means to deny an SNP majority, so yeh, like many other No voters I've used my list vote for the Tories and will continue to do so if required. That's kind of the point I was making though ie political allegiance has become shaped around the paralysing and polarising independence sludgefest we've been bogged down by.

A unionist first and foremost. Fair play.[emoji106] Hard to complain about polarisation when that’s your outlook though.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Bold indeed, but just a hint of John 15:13 there perhaps?

It’s good you like to see a firm leader, not afraid to show miscreants the door. Have you considered upgrading to the man-size version? :greengrin


26878

Boris looks like a completely different man since standing down, somehow more relaxed, he still looks, walks and talks like a Tory though.

[Keith_M]

... a firm leader, not afraid to show socialists the door...


26878


ftfy

[Hibrandenburg]

ftfy

:tee hee:

[Mibbes Aye]

Call me petty but I'm really struggling to see beyond that maroon tie now.

Can'tt remember what they specifically call it (not maroon!) but it is Arsenal coloured - they wore that shade during their last season at Highbury because that was the colour of their strip when they first played there. Starmer is a Gooner through and through.

See? Better :greengrin

[Kato]

Bold indeed, but just a hint of John 15:13 there perhaps?

It’s good you like to see a firm leader, not afraid to show miscreants the door. Have you considered upgrading to the man-size version? :greengrin


26878Ooo, strong and stable

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[Kato]

Until the independence issue became a thing I'd actually always voted Labour. Still do, but have used my second vote in Holyrood elections tactically as a means to deny an SNP majority, so yeh, like many other No voters I've used my list vote for the Tories and will continue to do so if required. That's kind of the point I was making though ie political allegiance has become shaped around the paralysing and polarising independence sludgefest we've been bogged down by.Yours is you mean.

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[Mibbes Aye]

ftfy

:greengrin

The trouble is finding a true one these days. Plenty who talk the talk but walk in a decidedly different fahion.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ooo, strong and stable

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I'm getting the impression you're not the only one on here feeling it since I posted that picture. OF course, they'll blame the weather for why they are feeling hot and flustered :greengrin

[He's here!]

A unionist first and foremost. Fair play.[emoji106] Hard to complain about polarisation when that’s your outlook though.


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Usual lazy attempt to brand anyone who doesn't support independence a unionist. Yes voters seem to regard it as some sort of put-down. Unless we're talking about Ulster Unionists/Rangers fans (ie people who make a point of trumpeting their allegiance to the union) the term isn't one recognised by most who have grown up British and don't have a problem with it. It's just a way of life, not an all-consuming passion. There's much more than politics that makes being part of the UK perfectly palatable (incomprehensible as that seems to be to the SNP).

[Kato]

It's just a way of life,

What goes into this way of life?

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[Ozyhibby]

Usual lazy attempt to brand anyone who doesn't support independence a unionist. Yes voters seem to regard it as some sort of put-down. Unless we're talking about Ulster Unionists/Rangers fans (ie people who make a point of trumpeting their allegiance to the union) the term isn't one recognised by most who have grown up British and don't have a problem with it. It's just a way of life, not an all-consuming passion. There's much more than politics that makes being part of the UK perfectly palatable (incomprehensible as that seems to be to the SNP).

That’s all fine. I’ll defend your right to all those those things but you literally described yourself as voting to save the union above all else. You don’t care if it’s Labour or Tory. It’s not me who labelled you as such, it was you.


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[Mibbes Aye]

That’s all fine. I’ll defend your right to all those those things but you literally described yourself as voting to save the union above all else. You don’t care if it’s Labour or Tory. It’s not me who labelled you as such, it was you.


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So what about people who voted to stay in the EU? You were one, weren't you?

Does that make you a unionist non-unionist, or a non-unionist unionist?

Or are you just a bi-unionist? Or trans-unionist?

[Ozyhibby]

So what about people who voted to stay in the EU? Youwere one, weren't you?

Does that make you a unionist non-unionist, or a non-unionist unionist?

Or are you just a bi?

I voted for Brexit.[emoji6]


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[Mibbes Aye]

I voted for Brexit.[emoji6]


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Well played. If I had a hat on I would take it off to you etc :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/holyrood-sources/id1673972192?i=1000616932159

Salmond’s interview on Holyrood sources. Haven’t listened yet but about to close laptop and head to garden with a beer to enjoy. Holyrood sources the best of the Scottish political podcasts.


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Just listening to this. Quite sad really. Salmond is really admitting that Alba is a busted flush. Talking about Scotland United candidates etc. Hasn’t talked about Alba once. All he has talked about is the SNP.


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[Ozyhibby]

I think this is quite tightly aimed at Alex Neil and Jo Cherry. Both of whom I'd be quite content to see joining Alba.

Nice to have a morning quiet from their usual noise. No doubt weighing up their options and trying to calculate if they can switch to Alba and still be re-elected (they can’t). McNeil in the same boat.
Let’s hope this lasts. Cherry and Neil could probably still contribute to the party if they tie the line. McNeil not so much.


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[weecounty hibby]

I actually dont mind people who question and don't just tow the party line but they are actively working against the party. I'd have more respect for them if they did piss off to Alba, but they won't as they know they have zero chance of being elected if they did

[147lothian]

Just listening to this. Quite sad really. Salmond is really admitting that Alba is a busted flush. Talking about Scotland United candidates etc. Hasn’t talked about Alba once. All he has talked about is the SNP.


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Its not really a surprise that Alex Salmond is going to speak about the SNP, he was Scotland's longest serving First Minister, it is also a party he helped build up for example when Salmond became leader for the second time in 2004 the SNP membership was just over 8,000 members 10 years later it was over 85,000.

I'm sure it doesn't bring him any pleasure to see the party he helped build up loosing about 30,000 members, the drop in membership was due to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP being 'preoccupied with the GRRB. A policy that as Alex Salmond says, no rational person could defend.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Its not really a surprise that Alex Salmond is going to speak about the SNP, he was Scotland's longest serving First Minister, it is also a party he helped build up for example when Salmond became leader for the second time in 2004 the SNP membership was just over 8,000 members 10 years later it was over 85,000.

I'm sure it doesn't bring him any pleasure to see the party he helped build up loosing about 30,000 members, the drop in membership was due to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP being 'preoccupied with the GRRB. A policy that as Alex Salmond says, no rational person could defend.

The rational people understood the scare mongering around the policy and how none of it held up based on the evidence of other countries that implemented more or less the same thing.

[He's here!]

I actually dont mind people who question and don't just tow the party line but they are actively working against the party. I'd have more respect for them if they did piss off to Alba, but they won't as they know they have zero chance of being elected if they did

Police investigate Joanna Cherry Twitter death threats - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65911150)

Cherry has earned a lot of respect for standing up for her views on sex and gender, not just during the political furore over the proposed reforms, but by forcing the Stand to back down on banning her show. She gets an obscene amount of flak for it though and was treated extremely shabbily by her party who sacked her from their front bench (Blackford's malign influence to the fore there). While I have no truck with her views on independence she's a highly effective operator and I'm quite glad the SNP don't see fit to offer her a high-profile role. She'd be a vastly more impressive and effective leader than Yousaf.

[Moulin Yarns]

Its not really a surprise that Alex Salmond is going to speak about the SNP, he was Scotland's longest serving First Minister





Fact check : alex Salmond 7 years and 186 days

Nicola Sturgeon 8 years and 128 days.

That makes nicola sturgeon the longest serving First Minister.

[Ozyhibby]

Police investigate Joanna Cherry Twitter death threats - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65911150)

Cherry has earned a lot of respect for standing up for her views on sex and gender, not just during the political furore over the proposed reforms, but by forcing the Stand to back down on banning her show. She gets an obscene amount of flak for it though and was treated extremely shabbily by her party who sacked her from their front bench (Blackford's malign influence to the fore there). While I have no truck with her views on independence she's a highly effective operator and I'm quite glad the SNP don't see fit to offer her a high-profile role. She'd be a vastly more impressive and effective leader than Yousaf.

Cherry would be an awful leader of the SNP or any other political party.


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[weecounty hibby]

Police investigate Joanna Cherry Twitter death threats - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65911150)

Cherry has earned a lot of respect for standing up for her views on sex and gender, not just during the political furore over the proposed reforms, but by forcing the Stand to back down on banning her show. She gets an obscene amount of flak for it though and was treated extremely shabbily by her party who sacked her from their front bench (Blackford's malign influence to the fore there). While I have no truck with her views on independence she's a highly effective operator and I'm quite glad the SNP don't see fit to offer her a high-profile role. She'd be a vastly more impressive and effective leader than Yousaf.

Yousaf is proving himself. Cherry in my opinion would be a disaster. She is clever and a good orator, but so is Yousaf and he will be a better bet to unite the party.

[grunt]

She'd be a vastly more impressive and effective leader than Yousaf.
She's bitter, has a huge chip on her shoulder, is intensely disloyal and holds grudges against people. She can't see how her own words and actions are damaging the prospects for independence. These qualities might make her a candidate for leader of the Tory party but we don't want her as SNP leader, thanks.

[Ozyhibby]

She's bitter, has a huge chip on her shoulder, is intensely disloyal and holds grudges against people. She can't see how her own words and actions are damaging the prospects for independence. These qualities might make her a candidate for leader of the Tory party but we don't want her as SNP leader, thanks.

She is very narcissistic.


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[archie]

She's bitter, has a huge chip on her shoulder, is intensely disloyal and holds grudges against people. She can't see how her own words and actions are damaging the prospects for independence. These qualities might make her a candidate for leader of the Tory party but we don't want her as SNP leader, thanks.
Just out of interest, people in the Labour party who criticise Starmer are lauded here as bold speakers of truth, whereas SNP people who criticise the leadership are completely damned. How do you square that?

[Skol]

I actually dont mind people who question and don't just tow the party line but they are actively working against the party. I'd have more respect for them if they did piss off to Alba, but they won't as they know they have zero chance of being elected if they did

Arguably it is toeing the SNP party line that is one of the main issues for the independence movement.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Just out of interest, people in the Labour party who criticise Starmer are lauded here as bold speakers of truth, whereas SNP people who criticise the leadership are completely damned. How do you square that?

People's criticisms of Starmer are based on his own words, party policies and antics over the party selection process. People criticising Nicola Sturgeon are doing so based on an investigation that hasn't even reached it's conclusion yet.

[archie]

People's criticisms of Starmer are based on his own words, party policies and antics over the party selection process. People criticising Nicola Sturgeon are doing so based on an investigation that hasn't even reached it's conclusion yet.

The investigation isn't the only basis of criticism. Is it all wrong?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The investigation isn't the only basis of criticism. Is it all wrong?

Is what all wrong? All i've seen over the past several days is demands that she should resign, simply on the basis that she is being investigated. As if she is pre-guilty because of it.

[Mibbes Aye]

People's criticisms of Starmer are based on his own words, party policies and antics over the party selection process. People criticising Nicola Sturgeon are doing so based on an investigation that hasn't even reached it's conclusion yet.

My criticisms of Sturgeon tend to be based on her administration’s abysmal running of public services, near-ideological craze for grabbing power from local communities and letting a desire for independence obscure the day job of running the country.

Is there something else I should be criticising her for?

[marinello59]

My criticisms of Sturgeon tend to be based on her administration’s abysmal running of public services, near-ideological craze for grabbing power from local communities and letting a desire for independence obscure the day job of running the country.

Is there something else I should be criticising her for?

Supporting Ayr United?

[archie]

Is what all wrong? All i've seen over the past several days is demands that she should resign, simply on the basis that she is being investigated. As if she is pre-guilty because of it.

Is any criticism of Nicola simply wrong in your eyes? Are you aware of any internal criticism prior to the past several days?

[Mibbes Aye]

Supporting Ayr United?

I knew it! I bloody knew it! :grr:

[Mibbes Aye]

Supporting Ayr United?

Which reminds me, Musselburgh claims to be the Honest Toun but Burns claims that no town surpasses Ayr for Honest Men.

Both places must be •••• at Call My Bluff.

[Hiber-nation]

Which reminds me, Musselburgh claims to be the Honest Toun but Burns claims that no town surpasses Ayr for Honest Men.

Both places must be •••• at Call My Bluff.

Any time I think of Ayr I think of the dozen wee radges threatening to take on the entire Hibs support after that bloody awful 1-0 defeat in the Cup back in 2010.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65920167?at_format=link&at_link_id=3355DBE0-0B88-11EE-AE15-B6D6FF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link

I knew this was coming because all their staff were looking for jobs on linked in the other day. Shame we can have this because it would have been a good scheme.


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65920167?at_format=link&at_link_id=3355DBE0-0B88-11EE-AE15-B6D6FF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link

I knew this was coming because all their staff were looking for jobs on linked in the other day. Shame we can have this because it would have been a good scheme.


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And yet Slater remains in post.

[Keith_M]

:greengrin

The trouble is finding a true one these days. Plenty who talk the talk but walk in a decidedly different fahion.


Personally I'm a bit of a Champagne Socialist.


Well,maybe a bit more White Lightning than Champagne....

[Ozyhibby]

And yet Slater remains in post.

She’s not the one who closed it down. That’s all on the UK govt. Wales going ahead with glass.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65920167?at_format=link&at_link_id=3355DBE0-0B88-11EE-AE15-B6D6FF7C7F44&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link

I knew this was coming because all their staff were looking for jobs on linked in the other day. Shame we can have this because it would have been a good scheme.


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Utterly soul destroying, the scheme would have worked, just like it works in many other countries around the world. Our kids future are at stake here but the Tories decide to play power games instead of pushing on with progressive policies that might actually make a difference.

[Mibbes Aye]

Personally I'm a bit of a Champagne Socialist.


Well,maybe a bit more White Lightning than Champagne....

:greengrin

“A just-so-slightly chilled Sancerre is the opium of the masses”

Marx and Engels. Or maybe Marks and Spencer. Same thing nowadays. Both are expensive and never quite live up to expectations.

[degenerated]

Utterly soul destroying, the scheme would have worked, just like it works in many other countries around the world. Our kids future are at stake here but the Tories decide to play power games instead of pushing on with progressive policies that might actually make a difference.By other countries you mean normal countries, I assume.

[neil7908]

Utterly soul destroying, the scheme would have worked, just like it works in many other countries around the world. Our kids future are at stake here but the Tories decide to play power games instead of pushing on with progressive policies that might actually make a difference.

Yup. It's extra frustrating as this isn't even an ideological issue for the Tories imo. They just want to be seen as anti SNP. It's a good scheme that has worked in other places and fits with Scotland (and the UKs) essential climate goals. It's pure spite stopping it.

And now we have wholy unnecessarily job losses, in the midst of a terrible economic downturn. But it's only Scotland so why would they care 🙄?

[Ozyhibby]

Yup. It's extra frustrating as this isn't even an ideological issue for the Tories imo. They just want to be seen as anti SNP. It's a good scheme that has worked in other places and fits with Scotland (and the UKs) essential climate goals. It's pure spite stopping it.

And now we have wholy unnecessarily job losses, in the midst of a terrible economic downturn. But it's only Scotland so why would they care [emoji849]?

The fact Wales are allowed is horrific.


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[degenerated]

The fact Wales are allowed is horrific.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf Wales didn't have a unionist party in power it would be getting exactly the same treatment as we are. This is nothing to do with consistency or environment and everything to do with putting us uppity jocks in our place.

[greenginger]

y
If Wales didn't have a unionist party in power it would be getting exactly the same treatment as we are. This is nothing to do with consistency or environment and everything to do with putting us uppity jocks in our place.


That’s nonsense.

Wales are progressing with glass without UK government approval. An option open to Holyrood .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65872759#:~:text=The%20UK%20government%20has%20dec ided,UK%2Dwide%20approach%20was%20taken.

Nothing to do with Unionist parties being in power.

[Ozyhibby]

y


That’s nonsense.

Wales are progressing with glass without UK government approval. An option open to Holyrood .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65872759#:~:text=The%20UK%20government%20has%20dec ided,UK%2Dwide%20approach%20was%20taken.

Nothing to do with Unionist parties being in power.

That is not open to Holyrood.


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[greenginger]

That is not open to Holyrood.


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what was not open to Holyrood ?

Wales have proceeded including glass in their DRS without asking UK government . I’m sure there will be some sanction coming down the line , Scotland could have proceeded and challenged any sanction in Supreme Court.

[Skol]

what was not open to Holyrood ?

Wales have proceeded including glass in their DRS without asking UK government . I’m sure there will be some sanction coming down the line , Scotland could have proceeded and challenged any sanction in Supreme Court.

I had wondered about that.SNP saying wales allowed, but I haven’t seem anything saying they are. Just that is their intention. Like Scotland until we asked and the answer was no. Presumably the same will apply to Wales. Until then though, great for the old grievance machine to churn out the Westminster baddie line.

[Ozyhibby]

I had wondered about that.SNP saying wales allowed, but I haven’t seem anything saying they are. Just that is their intention. Like Scotland until we asked and the answer was no. Presumably the same will apply to Wales. Until then though, great for the old grievance machine to churn out the Westminster baddie line.

Grievance machine? Have we been told no?


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[Callum_62]

Grievance machine? Have we been told no?


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But Wales huvnae and there no grieving or something

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[Skol]

Grievance machine? Have we been told no?


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Have wales been told yes ?

I genuinely don’t know the answer to that.

[Ozyhibby]

Have wales been told yes ?

I genuinely don’t know the answer to that.

They have.


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[Skol]

They have.


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Do you have a link to confirm that?

[Hibrandenburg]

I had wondered about that.SNP saying wales allowed, but I haven’t seem anything saying they are. Just that is their intention. Like Scotland until we asked and the answer was no. Presumably the same will apply to Wales. Until then though, great for the old grievance machine to churn out the Westminster baddie line.

Yep, there's no reason what so ever to hold any grievances against Westminster. Ffs man/woman/other, have you been living under a stone for the last 13 years?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Like Scotland until we asked and the answer was no.

A country asking another country if it can implement something in it's own country and being told no and the conclusion you come to is that it's some kind of unwarranted grievance to be unhappy about it? Quite incredible.

[Andy Bee]

Have wales been told yes ?

I genuinely don’t know the answer to that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEnUQdqV9EY

[xyz23jc]

:greengrin

“A just-so-slightly chilled Sancerre is the opium of the masses”

Marx and Engels. Or maybe Marks and Spencer. Same thing nowadays. Both are expensive and never quite live up to expectations.

Is that a direct Sair Keech Bampot quote? :wink::greengrin

[xyz23jc]

A country asking another country if it can implement something in it's own country and being told no and the conclusion you come to is that it's some kind of unwarranted grievance to be unhappy about it? Quite incredible.


THE VOW, eh, Magic? :wink:

[Glory Lurker]

How wasn't Wales called in under the Internal Market Act?

And can you imagine the furore if ScoGov just battered on and got hauled into the Supreme Court?

[Just Alf]

Remember, when this went through Westminster initially, before the devolved parliaments even started theirimplementation, Westminster's intention was for all to include glass with England having an opt out (which they seem to decide to do from the off).

I think that's why folks are upset, England's opt out is now being forced on Scotland

[Skol]

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2023/06/wales-ploughs-ahead-with-glass-in-deposit-return-scheme-despite-uk-block/

It would appear wales have not yet sought permission and so it isn’t a case of Scotland being stopped from doing what wales have agreement to do.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2023/06/wales-ploughs-ahead-with-glass-in-deposit-return-scheme-despite-uk-block/

It would appear wales have not yet sought permission and so it isn’t a case of Scotland being stopped from doing what wales have agreement to do.

But we have been stopped from doing something that falls within devolution. You don't see a problem with that?

[Skol]

I can see an issue with differences within the uk and a need due some joined up thinking here. You clearly don’t want to see that and instead look for a grievance.

[Ozyhibby]

I can see an issue with differences within the uk and a need due some joined up thinking here. You clearly don’t want to see that and instead look for a grievance.

Joined up thinking to you is just letting the UK govt do all the thinking for you.[emoji23]


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[JimBHibees]

Joined up thinking to you is just letting the UK govt do all the thinking for you.[emoji23]


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Even more worrying is when the Uk government is this one

[Hibrandenburg]

I can see an issue with differences within the uk and a need due some joined up thinking here. You clearly don’t want to see that and instead look for a grievance.

What's the odds on any UK deposit return scheme being very similar to the Scottish and Welsh schemes already proposed?

Any UK wide scheme is highly likely to be introduced after this Tory government leave office.

Add those two things together and you have your joined up thinking.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/thescotsman/status/1669594652658335744?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Support for SNP stabilises.[emoji106]


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[Berwickhibby]

https://twitter.com/thescotsman/status/1669594652658335744?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Support for SNP stabilises.[emoji106]


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The people of Bellshill disagreed at the by election as Labour replaced SNP last night

[Moulin Yarns]

I can see an issue with differences within the uk and a need due some joined up thinking here. You clearly don’t want to see that and instead look for a grievance.

Different states of Australia manage different schemes, some including glass, others excluded glass, it works across state lines, so why should it be any different in the UK?

[He's here!]

The people of Bellshill disagreed at the by election as Labour replaced SNP last night

That's a big swing to Labour. Hopefully to be replicated at national level. I think this was where the SNP council leader had to resign over sex abuse allegations though? May have swayed a lot of voters, although Yousaf did do some high profile campaigning there which clearly didn't pay off.

[Just Alf]

Different states of Australia manage different schemes, some including glass, others excluded glass, it works across state lines, so why should it be any different in the UK?I know I go on about it.... and Scotland/Wales built their schemes specifically to what Westminster agreed at the outset.

Westminster can't really cite the new single market bill as a reason for us needing to now follow the English scheme as we were already in a single market when Westminster announced it could all proceed with the English glass opt out in place.

[Hibrandenburg]

Different states of Australia manage different schemes, some including glass, others excluded glass, it works across state lines, so why should it be any different in the UK?

In a world where have split the atom, can send humans into space and back and we understand the relationship between speed, time and distance, BUT we can't integrate 3 slightly different recycling systems at a prearranged time in the future. This Westminster government are a depraved disgrace.

[Kato]

That's a big swing to Labour. Hopefully to be replicated at national level. I think this was where the SNP council leader had to resign over sex abuse allegations though? May have swayed a lot of voters, although Yousaf did do some high profile campaigning there which clearly didn't pay off.80% of the electorate didn't bother voting.

Nice weather as well.

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[147lothian]

https://twitter.com/thescotsman/status/1669594652658335744?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Support for SNP stabilises.[emoji106]


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This is the Bellshill byelection results.

Labour 1,440 votes

SNP 753 votes

[Berwickhibby]

This is the Bellshill byelection results.

Labour 1,440 votes

SNP 753 votes

Dare I say…..Strong and Stable :faf::faf::faf:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

This is the Bellshill byelection results.

Labour 1,440 votes

SNP 753 votes

One result from a byelection triggered due to very specific circumstances with a 22.7% turn out. It's not a result I would be clinging onto in the hope that it would be reflective across Scotland as a whole.

[Mibbes Aye]

East Kilbride West next month, after the SNP councillor in three-councillor ward nine stepped down. It is a relatively open seat - the two remaining councillors are Labour and an independent (was SNP but quit), but the Tories have votes there too and had one of the slots until the last election I think.

Too easy to read too much into local results, although there is a website I look at that faithfully details all the UK local by-election results every week and you can make a stab at extrapolating trends from that.

Looking back over the last couple of years, the Tories look in real trouble in the shires and the Midlands, maybe more than the northern red wall seats. A big chunk of that is going to Labour, some to Lib Dems and quite a lot to independents - when it is local level it is difficult to integrate that into national forecasts.

[Ozyhibby]

This is the Bellshill byelection results.

Labour 1,440 votes

SNP 753 votes

1440 votes? Impressive.[emoji106]


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[He's here!]

80% of the electorate didn't bother voting.

Nice weather as well.

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SNP thrashed by Labour in sex scandal byelection in Bellshill | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23593079.snp-thrashed-labour-sex-scandal-byelection-bellshill/)

SNP voters getting the blame for failing to rally round the cause.

[He's here!]

1440 votes? Impressive.[emoji106]


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Yep, that's the stat you'd be flagging up had the SNP held on :wink:

Is it even an especially low turnout for a mid-term council by-election? I don't know, but I'd imagine for most a trip to the local polling station isn't top of the list on a blazing hot day. Whatever, though, you've got to be in it to win it as they say so I don't imagine the size of the turnout dilutes Labour's delight.

[Keith_M]

Yep, that's the stat you'd be flagging up had the SNP held on :wink:

Is it even an especially low turnout for a mid-term council by-election? I don't know, but I'd imagine for most a trip to the local polling station isn't top of the list on a blazing hot day. Whatever, though, you've got to be in it to win it as they say so I don't imagine the size of the turnout dilutes Labour's delight.


In the Bible, the number 12 signifies perfection.

One way of emphasising the concept is to use 12 times 12, or 144, which is used a number of times in said book to proclaim a wonderful future where God's chosen ones finally rule the earth for our greater good.

Labour got 1,440 votes, which starts with 144

So, with this in mind, the figures could possibly indicate that the Labour party actually are God's chosen representatives on earth, and Keir Starmer is in actual fact the modern manifestation of the Messiah, leading us to the Promised Land.

:hmmm:






Though, in balance, 1,440, ends in zero, which might also be significant... so for those that do believe in signs and numerology, take from it what you will. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

In the Bible, the number 12 signifies perfection.

One way of emphasising the concept is to use 12 times 12, or 144, which is used a number of times in said book to proclaim a wonderful future where God's chosen ones finally rule the earth for our greater good.

Labour got 1,440 votes, which starts with 144

So, with this in mind, the figures could possibly indicate that the Labour party actually are God's chosen representatives on earth, and Keir Starmer is in actual fact the modern manifestation of the Messiah, leading us to the Promised Land.

:hmmm:






Though, in balance, 1,440, ends in zero, which might also be significant... so for those that do believe in signs and numerology, take from that what you will. :wink:

Take care in the sun today.[emoji23]


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[Keith_M]

Take care in the sun today.[emoji23]


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Too much coffee, Ozy


:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

In the Bible, the number 12 signifies perfection.

One way of emphasising the concept is to use 12 times 12, or 144, which is used a number of times in said book to proclaim a wonderful future where God's chosen ones finally rule the earth for our greater good.

Labour got 1,440 votes, which starts with 144

So, with this in mind, the figures could possibly indicate that the Labour party actually are God's chosen representatives on earth, and Keir Starmer is in actual fact the modern manifestation of the Messiah, leading us to the Promised Land.

:hmmm:



I was saying that to the wife last night, exact same words :agree:

[Kato]

In the Bible, the number 12 signifies perfection.

One way of emphasising the concept is to use 12 times 12, or 144, which is used a number of times in said book to proclaim a wonderful future where God's chosen ones finally rule the earth for our greater good.

Labour got 1,440 votes, which starts with 144

So, with this in mind, the figures could possibly indicate that the Labour party actually are God's chosen representatives on earth, and Keir Starmer is in actual fact the modern manifestation of the Messiah, leading us to the Promised Land.

:hmmm:






Though, in balance, 1,440, ends in zero, which might also be significant... so for those that do believe in signs and numerology, take from it what you will. :wink:I will hold as much credence in this as I do the Heralds take.

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[Just Alf]

Too much coffee, Ozy


:greengrin"Coffee" you say?..... hmm..







:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I was saying that to the wife last night, exact same words :agree:

During coitus? Whatever floats yer boat.

[xyz23jc]

The people of Bellshill disagreed at the by election as Labour replaced SNP last night

Bellshill still staunch then! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://commonweal.scot/land-reform-this-is-the-chance/

SNP and Labour working together. Let’s wish them well.[emoji1696]


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[Mibbes Aye]

During coitus? Whatever floats yer boat.

Noah’s Ark if we are keeping it on topic 😀

[Berwickhibby]

Bellshill still staunch then! :greengrin

Obviously not Staunch SNP :greengrin

[147lothian]

1440 votes? Impressive.[emoji106]


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It is actually compared to the 753 votes for the SNP

This is all in-spite of or maybe it was because of Bellshill being visited by the tartan Mr Bean.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://commonweal.scot/land-reform-this-is-the-chance/

SNP and Labour working together. Let’s wish them well.[emoji1696]


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Wonder how long it will take Westminster to send the Scottish Government to court over this one.

[Hibrandenburg]

Noah’s Ark if we are keeping it on topic 😀

:tee hee:

[archie]

Wonder how long it will take Westminster to send the Scottish Government to court over this one.

Well the article suggests that the recent SNP leadership contest has removed a blockage.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Well the article suggests that the recent SNP leadership contest has removed a blockage.

I'm sure another one will be invented just in time.

[Keith_M]

I was saying that to the wife last night, exact same words :agree:


During coitus? Whatever floats yer boat.



If it makes her happy, who are we to criticise?


:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

1440 votes? Impressive.[emoji106]


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When the SNP only managed 753, should you really be mocking Labour's count?

[Ozyhibby]

When the SNP only managed 753, should you really be mocking Labour's count?

Lighten up, a win is a win. Labour will be chuffed. The SNP should be reflecting on what they need to change. Some of it already started I suspect with this weeks warning to malcontents in the party. They have instantly piped down. We’ll see how long it lasts. Main thing is it’s done.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Lighten up, a win is a win. Labour will be chuffed. The SNP should be reflecting on what they need to change. Some of it already started I suspect with this weeks warning to malcontents in the party. They have instantly piped down. We’ll see how long it lasts. Main thing is it’s done.


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Starmer's won you over :greengrin

Tough on malcontents, touch on the causes of malcontents :faf:

To be fair to both sides, it is a mere amuse bouche before the Rutherglen and Hamilton West by-election. I don't think it is a guaranteed Labour win, SNP voters will be able to rightly distinguish between Ferrier's cavailer and selfish attitude to the safety of others and the actual party itself.

It is one of those contests though - big celebrations for the winner either way (for different reaasons), the loser will have a bit of an excuse but will still be sore.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer's won you over :greengrin Tough on malcontents, touch on the causes of malcontents

To be fair, these are people actively undermining the party daily in the media. Starmer much more going for anyone he thinks might be thinking bad things.
Party discipline is important though. I haven’t really given Starmer a hard time on that.


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[Mibbes Aye]

To be fair, these are people actively undermining the party daily in the media. Starmer much more going for anyone he thinks might be thinking bad things.
Party discipline is important though. I haven’t really given Starmer a hard time on that.


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More than a fair number of the rejected, ejected and dejected trying to hang on to Labour's coat-tails and not shy to say what they like, even if untrue, thanks very much.

With the SNP I don't think you have the same residue that hate the centrists more than they hate the Tories.

[archie]

I'm sure another one will be invented just in time.

Why would they block land reform?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Why would they block land reform?

For the same reasons they've already blocked several other devolved matters already. Got to remind Scots of their place.

[He's here!]

Lighten up, a win is a win. Labour will be chuffed. The SNP should be reflecting on what they need to change. Some of it already started I suspect with this weeks warning to malcontents in the party. They have instantly piped down. We’ll see how long it lasts. Main thing is it’s done.


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The SNP is sleepwalking into extinction | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-is-sleepwalking-into-potential-extinction/)

Maybe they're entitled to be malcontented?

[grunt]

The SNP is sleepwalking into extinction | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-is-sleepwalking-into-potential-extinction/)

Maybe they're entitled to be malcontented?
Is that you posting an article by that idiot MacWhirter again? I'll pass, thank you.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP is sleepwalking into extinction | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-is-sleepwalking-into-potential-extinction/)

Maybe they're entitled to be malcontented?

Well that fair brought a smile to my face. [emoji23]
Spectator been putting out that same article for 15 years now.


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[degenerated]

Well that fair brought a smile to my face. [emoji23]
Spectator been putting out that same article for 15 years now.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs he calling people coconuts again?

[Skol]

Joined up thinking to you is just letting the UK govt do all the thinking for you.[emoji23]


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That’s just rubbish, but standard SNP stuff really.