SNP are lying b******s as well !

[archie]

You're tinkering around the edges of what is true. Clearly it's enough of a fixed budget to require annual under spends each and every year, which has been the case since the devolution of parliament in 1997. If you want to go down the devolved taxation route, that's fine. But we both know the impact this has on the overall spending budget is fractional.

It is is true or it isn't. The Scottish Government does not have a fixed budget. By all means argue for wider tax raising powers, but you don't help your case by leading with things that aren't true.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It is is true or it isn't. The Scottish Government does not have a fixed budget. By all means argue for wider tax raising powers, but you don't help your case by leading with things that aren't true.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scottish-government-budget-fixed-half-true/

[archie]

https://theferret.scot/claim-scottish-government-budget-fixed-half-true/

From the article you cite:

However, the budget in Scotland can be altered each year by devolved and partially-devolved taxation, such as council tax and the Scottish rate of income tax. The Scottish Government has limited borrowing powers.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

From the article you cite:

However, the budget in Scotland can be altered each year by devolved and partially-devolved taxation, such as council tax and the Scottish rate of income tax. The Scottish Government has limited borrowing powers.

You said it was either true or not true. It's neither one extreme or the other.

Also from the article (just above the part you selectively quoted):

The largest part of Scotland’s budget – the block grant – is effectively fixed. The block grant is affected by changes to UK Government spending in England, which then filters through to the Scottish Government.

[archie]

You said it was either true or not true. It's neither one extreme or the other.

Also from the article (just above the part you selectively quoted):

The largest part of Scotland’s budget – the block grant – is effectively fixed. The block grant is affected by changes to UK Government spending in England, which then filters through to the Scottish Government.

I accept the scope for nuance, but you said it was fixed. Then you said it was pedantic to say it wasn't fixed. You then cite an article that says the claim the budget is fixed is only half true. And then complain when I highlight the bit of the article that demonstrates tax varying powers. Even the part you have highlighted qualifies the fixed statement by prefacing it with 'effectively '. I rest my case.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I accept the scope for nuance, but you said it was fixed. Then you said it was pedantic to say it wasn't fixed. You then cite an article that says the claim the budget is fixed is only half true. And then complain when I highlight the bit of the article that demonstrates tax varying powers. Even the part you have highlighted qualifies the fixed statement by prefacing it with 'effectively '. I rest my case.

You haven't though. You're simply saying it's untrue, which is in itself untrue. :greengrin

The Barnett Formula provides Scotland with a fixed sum. What Scotland can reasonably raise through devolved taxation has it's limits and what Scotland can borrow on an annual basis is also limited by a fixed sum.

So yes, there's some minor leeway when it comes to devolved taxation, but there's ultimately a very limited ceiling when it comes to Scotland's annual budget. Compare that to Westminster itself which doesn't really have any ceiling at all. They can borrow on a need by basis without having to worry about hitting some imposed limit.

[archie]

You haven't though. You're simply saying it's untrue, which is in itself untrue. :greengrin

The Barnett Formula provides Scotland with a fixed sum. What Scotland can reasonably raise through devolved taxation has it's limits and what Scotland can borrow on an annual basis is also limited by a fixed sum.

So yes, there's some minor leeway when it comes to devolved taxation, but there's ultimately a very limited ceiling when it comes to Scotland's annual budget. Compare that to Westminster itself which doesn't really have any ceiling at all. They can borrow on a need by basis without having to worry about hitting some imposed limit.

So not fixed.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So not fixed.

Refer back to post #3998. We're not doing this again.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotlands-bottle-deposit-return-scheme-westminster-set-to-block-upcoming-deposit-return-scheme-4042378

Westminster to block deposit return scheme.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotlands-bottle-deposit-return-scheme-westminster-set-to-block-upcoming-deposit-return-scheme-4042378

Westminster to block deposit return scheme.


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To be fair, although the majority support recycling, however this ill thought out system is an absolute farce adding extra cost to the public at initial purchase during a credit crisis. The return to a centre which could be many miles away could be difficult for many, plus the added stupidity of things like if the can/tin is bashed or crushed it won’t be accepted. This needs to looked at again.

[WhileTheChief..]

"Fraud cops"

They're already setting up their next narrative if the investigation turns up empty handed.

Aren't they just describing the cops that are looking into it? As in, they're cops that investigate frauds.

Fraud Squad used to be a regularly used term, would that be better?!!

I really don't see the issue here. I'd have thought the talking point would be the fact that there is an investigation and that the cops are involved, not the Daily Record's headline about it.

Maybe it will get discussed more in the coming days as we find out more.

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair, although the majority support recycling, however this ill thought out system is an absolute farce adding extra cost to the public at initial purchase during a credit crisis. The return to a centre which could be many miles away could be difficult for many, plus the added stupidity of things like if the can/tin is bashed or crushed it won’t be accepted. This needs to looked at again.

It’s not a credit crisis.
And that’s not the point. The fact is that Westminster are once again blocking the Scottish parliament.


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[Berwickhibby]

It’s not a credit crisis.
And that’s not the point. The fact is that Westminster are once again blocking the Scottish parliament.


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Rather that than another useless piece of legislation that will effect many

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s not a credit crisis.
And that’s not the point. The fact is that Westminster are once again blocking the Scottish parliament.


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I didn't realise it wouldn't be currently legal due to the internal market act and they knew that. It's like they are choosing things they know aren't legal so they can be refused and score points.

We should be able to do it, but that's not the same. We should control our corporation tax but that's not devolved so if we change it we know it will be refused

[grunt]

I didn't realise it wouldn't be currently legal due to the internal market act and they knew that. It's like they are choosing things they know aren't legal so they can be refused and score points.
The Infernal Markets Act is a blatant attack on devolution and IMO the Scottish Government should breach it daily until we can have a judicial review and hopefully, have the damned thing repealed. Or just have independence.

[Ozyhibby]

I didn't realise it wouldn't be currently legal due to the internal market act and they knew that. It's like they are choosing things they know aren't legal so they can be refused and score points.

We should be able to do it, but that's not the same. We should control our corporation tax but that's not devolved so if we change it we know it will be refused

Wasn’t the deposit return scheme planned before the internal market act?


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[Santa Cruz]

Wasn’t the deposit return scheme planned before the internal market act?


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No idea. Have the 3 candidates for FM not all stated they would pause this legislation anyway?

[Ozyhibby]

No idea. Have the 3 candidates for FM not all stated they would pause this legislation anyway?

Only for small business. It needs to happen though eventually. I guess we will just need to wait until England decides it wants to do it.


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[Santa Cruz]

Only for small business. It needs to happen though eventually. I guess we will just need to wait until England decides it wants to do it.


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Thanks, I'm trying to just pay attention to how it impacts consumers (me). Seems sensible to me to make it a UK wide roll out. Hopefully by that time inflation will have came down which would make this new policy more affordable and successful in achieving its aims.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64624421?at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_id=2408E97A-B697-11ED-957A-AB24D99D5CC3&at_campaign_type=owned&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_medium=social&at_format=link&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews


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[Ozyhibby]

Thanks, I'm trying to just pay attention to how it impacts consumers (me). Seems sensible to me to make it a UK wide roll out. Hopefully by that time inflation will have came down which would make this new policy more affordable and successful in achieving its aims.

Be as well closing Holyrood as well I guess.[emoji849]


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[degenerated]

Be as well closing Holyrood as well I guess.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's the long term aim, isn't it.

[Santa Cruz]

Be as well closing Holyrood as well I guess.[emoji849]


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No defo keep it open, just need to have policies where future legislation is not so flawed and in this case rushed.

[Rumble de Thump]

No defo keep it open, just need to have policies where future legislation is not so flawed and in this case rushed.

The Scottish Government just needs to have policies that the UK Government approves of.

[Bostonhibby]

The Scottish Government just needs to have policies that the UK Government approves of.Or are as well thought out, planned and implemented as the current UK governments[emoji23][emoji23]
Absolutely U turn proof, like trussonomics for example. Strong and stable!

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[Santa Cruz]

The Scottish Government just needs to have policies that the UK Government approves of.

In the 2 areas the UK Gov have signalled (they've not issued a S35 for the DRR yet) a clash of legislation, are either of these policies in their current form popular with Scottish voters? Looks like the approval is not there from voters either imo.

[Ozyhibby]

In the 2 areas the UK Gov have signalled (they've not issued a S35 for the DRR yet) a clash of legislation, are either of these policies in their current form popular with Scottish voters? Looks like the approval is not there from voters either imo.

So no difficult decisions then?


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[Santa Cruz]

So no difficult decisions then?


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Not sure what you mean? Are you acknowledging the policies as they stand aren't popular with voters?

[Berwickhibby]

So no difficult decisions then?


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The decisions and spirit of both the Acts have public approval, however the mechanics and the way it will impact on the Scottish public show how poorly it has been thought out.

[He's here!]

Forbes: 'Bottle scheme could cause economic carnage'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64785574

With all 3 leadership candidates criticising the scheme it seems likely to be put on the back burner - or become part of a nationwide rollout.

Combined with the sidelining of the gender reforms, this will hopefully see the toxic Greens on their way out of power.

[degenerated]

Not sure what you mean? Are you acknowledging the policies as they stand aren't popular with voters?Don't worry, it won't be long before section 35s are issued for policies that aren't as contentious. This is just an exercise in conditioning.

[Santa Cruz]

Don't worry, it won't be long before section 35s are issued for policies that aren't as contentious. This is just an exercise in conditioning.

I'm not worried about section 35's becoming the norm. There's only been one issued in over 20 years. I don't disagree with either policy (made clear in other posts/threads) but they do need amended.

[SteveHFC]

Forbes: 'Bottle scheme could cause economic carnage'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64785574

With all 3 leadership candidates criticising the scheme it seems likely to be put on the back burner - or become part of a nationwide rollout.

Combined with the sidelining of the gender reforms, this will hopefully see the toxic Greens on their way out of power.

Could only see the Greens leaving if Forbes or Regan is appointed.

[Just Alf]

In yesterday's Lorna Slater interview the published quotes came from she also said the shed been in talks with a minister in UK Gov and that it had been signalled that the internal market bill wouldn't be an issue.

Winder why they've changed their mind?

[Stairway 2 7]

In yesterday's Lorna Slater interview the published quotes came from she also said the shed been in talks with a minister in UK Gov and that it had been signalled that the internal market bill wouldn't be an issue.

Winder why they've changed their mind?

Uk government said she hadn't and asked her to show any email correspondence saying the opposite. Her interview has obviously went viral for being a car crash, but it is ridiculous her saying they might change parts of it like for small businesses just two days before the deadline. She's so obviously in above her head

[He's here!]

I didn't realise it wouldn't be currently legal due to the internal market act and they knew that. It's like they are choosing things they know aren't legal so they can be refused and score points.

We should be able to do it, but that's not the same. We should control our corporation tax but that's not devolved so if we change it we know it will be refused

That was always Sturgeon's tactic. Manufacture grievances with Westminster.

As with the gender reforms fiasco, public opinion would be with the UK government if they were compelled to pause this shambolic initiative. It won't get that far though, because whoever becomes the new FM will be putting it on hold, or even ditching it completely.

[Mr Grieves]

That was always Sturgeon's tactic. Manufacture grievances with Westminster.

As with the gender reforms fiasco, public opinion would be with the UK government if they were compelled to pause this shambolic initiative. It won't get that far though, because whoever becomes the new FM will be putting it on hold, or even ditching it completely.

https://www.ft.com/content/0668efbd-ca9c-4b8b-a1c1-0c2adcd75348

Key to his decision to abandon the Tories now is his belief, based on discussions with party insiders, that Prime Minister Rishi Sunak will ramp up the so-called culture wars as a central part of his 2024 election strategy.

“It was made pretty clear the plan is to run a culture war to distract from fundamental economic failings,” Anderson said. “It’s not something I want any part of.”

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That was always Sturgeon's tactic. Manufacture grievances with Westminster.

Yep, because she really needed to do that. It's not as if there are any legitimate grievances such as Brexit, tory governments that we don't vote for or "opposition" parties at Westminster that are a pale imitation of the same thing at best.


As with the gender reforms fiasco, public opinion would be with the UK government if they were compelled to pause this shambolic initiative. It won't get that far though, because whoever becomes the new FM will be putting it on hold, or even ditching it completely.

That would be the gender reforms "fiasco" that was backed by 2/3rds of MSPs in parliament. A bill that Spain also introduced on the exact same day, without any of the hyperbole or major backlash from their media or population. A bill that's effectively be in force in the ROI since 2015 without people there really taking much notice of it at all.

But hey ho, the Daily Mail and Express had some tasty headlines and they are the true governing powers. Never mind the people we actually elect.

[WhileTheChief..]

You think the Mail and Express hold that much influence over the people of Scotland? Do they even sell enough papers up here to influence anything?

You said yourself you have extreme left wing views. Could it maybe be your interpretation of things at play here? It seems to be one conspiracy after another!

I think the people of Scotland are far smarter than you think.

That they don’t agree with your politics doesn’t mean they’re short of intelligence or unable to follow politics with as much scrutiny as yourself.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You think the Mail and Express hold that much influence over the people of Scotland? Do they even sell enough papers up here to influence anything?

They certainly have enough influence to have kept going all of these years and to be front and centre piece of every newspaper rack across the country. Not to mention enough of an influence to have their headlines referenced in the mainstream media each day.


You said yourself you have extreme left wing views.

No I never.


Could it maybe be your interpretation of things at play here? It seems to be one conspiracy after another!

Of course it's my interpretation of things. Everybody has their own interpretations, there would never be anything to talk about otherwise, unless you prefer echo chambers.


I think the people of Scotland are far smarter than you think.

You don't know what I think about how smart I think Scottish people are in general.


That they don’t agree with your politics doesn’t mean they’re short of intelligence or unable to follow politics with as much scrutiny as yourself.

I never said they were. You're making that assertion.

[Keith_M]

I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.

When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.


I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...

"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.

From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.

"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/austria-to-add-e0-25-deposit-to-price-of-cans-and-plastic-bottles

[degenerated]

I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.

When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.


I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...

"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.

From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.

"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/austria-to-add-e0-25-deposit-to-price-of-cans-and-plastic-bottles

Like the with the GRR stuff we are clearly too wee and stupid to be able to do it. Thankfully we have a benevolent, philanthropic and wiser neighbour to deal with this sort of stuff for us.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.

When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.


I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...

"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.

From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.

"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/austria-to-add-e0-25-deposit-to-price-of-cans-and-plastic-bottles



Because any idea that is remotely progressive in the UK these days is "far left extremism" according to the highest selling and most frequently quoted newspapers. That really is where we're at.

[He's here!]

I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.

When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.


I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...

"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.

From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.

"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/austria-to-add-e0-25-deposit-to-price-of-cans-and-plastic-bottles



Not controversial just incompetently handled.

[WhileTheChief..]

Of course it's my interpretation of things. Everybody has their own interpretations, there would never be anything to talk about otherwise, unless you prefer echo chambers.
.

Not at all. I think you give the press way too much credit though.

The Mail and Express are 'the true governing powers'?

Nah, not even close.

[archie]

I'm confused as to why this deposit return scheme is considered so controversial. It's a fairly simple incentive to encourage recycling that's already used in a number of other countries.

When I lived in Germany, I didn't find it a particularly large burden to take my collection of bottles to the deposit return machine at Ald, Lidl, etc, when I did the shopping.


I just read an article that says Austria is planning the same...

"Austria has announced a 25-cent deposit will be levied on plastic bottles and aluminium cans, according to the Climate Protection Ministry.

From 2025, consumers will be able to return the items to any seller of these products and get €0.25 back on the price they paid.

"Austria is getting a deposit system. This way, we protect our nature and ensure that plastic bottles and cans are recycled properly", Environment Minister Leonore Gewessler (Greens) said."
https://www.thelocal.at/20220913/austria-to-add-e0-25-deposit-to-price-of-cans-and-plastic-bottles



Austrian scheme doesn't include glass. Also, unclear from the article about the implications for manufacturing as opposed to retailers.

[Keith_M]

Not controversial just incompetently handled.


In what way?

(genuine question, no digs implied :-) )

[He's here!]

In what way?

(genuine question, no digs implied :-) )

Putting Lorna Slater in charge of it for one. An opt-out from the UK Internal Market Act is required for the scheme even to proceed (something businesses have been pointing out for some time) yet she now admits she has yet to apply for an exemption (while still expecting participants to sign up by tomorrow's deadline). Despite insisting it was 'full steam ahead' for a full August rollout just a few days ago she's rowed back today and accepted smaller businesses my need a year's grace period (yet, again, still wants them to sign up by tomorrow).

[marinello59]

Putting Lorna Slater in charge of it for one. .

:greengrin

[Callum_62]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/teaching-union-defers-strike-action-after-members-show-support-for-new-deal

It’s a start.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThese guys are hilarious

Truely bizarre

https://twitter.com/TesScotland/status/1630278674921431045?t=Va3N-ToVI7GtNJ2AjY7rFg&s=19

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[Zambernardi1875]

In what way?

(genuine question, no digs implied :-) )

I still don’t understand the reason for the 20p. Also the whole scheme only benefits big business

[Hibrandenburg]

I still don’t understand the reason for the 20p. Also the whole scheme only benefits big business

It benefits the environment first and foremost. Saving the planet will come at a cost, not saving it an even bigger one.

[Zambernardi1875]

It benefits the environment first and foremost. Saving the planet will come at a cost, not saving it an even bigger one.

thanks for not answering my questions

[Santa Cruz]

I still don’t understand the reason for the 20p. Also the whole scheme only benefits big business

Reduces the work of the Councils who currently pick up recycling, just means they're picking up less. The 20p is the incentive to encourage people to participate. Say if you pay £4 more for cans of drink, you're only way to get that back is to recycle using one of the machines (there might be other ways like in-store, not too sure).

[Hibrandenburg]

thanks for not answering my questions

I didn't see a question mark never mind a question.

[Zambernardi1875]

Reduces the work of the Councils who currently pick up recycling, just means they're picking up less. The 20p is the incentive to encourage people to participate. Say if you pay £4 more for cans of drink, you're only way to get that back is to recycle using one of the machines (there might be other ways like in-store, not too sure).

these recycling machines will only be available by companies that can afford them ie big supermarkets, therefore more chance you’ll go there and shop than use small stores. People already use 3-4 bins without a 20p incentive so why start now. Also reduces the chances of buying 20p more expensive single cans and bottles and will increase big multipack boxes in supermarket deals which small shops can’t compete with. And this without all the problems that small independent distilleries have highlighted.

[Santa Cruz]

these recycling machines will only be available by companies that can afford them ie big supermarkets, therefore more chance you’ll go there and shop than use small stores. People already use 3-4 bins without a 20p incentive so why start now. Also reduces the chances of buying 20p more expensive single cans and bottles and will increase big multipack boxes in supermarket deals which small shops can’t compete with. And this without all the problems that small independent distilleries have highlighted.

It applies to multipacks too, 20p x however many drinks in single containers in the multipacks. I agree the recycling system we have just now does seem adequate, think the SG are looking to increase participation further by introducing this new system. They'll obvs be thinking of the environmental benefits of the increased uptake, but also decreasing the work of the LA workers who collect and process recycling from all homes. I think the Agency responsible for implementation has been given a fair bit money, I imagine this is to help business, then eventually smaller shops. I mind being well miffed when I smoked and they stopped smoking in indoor public spaces, now think it was a brilliant policy.

[Zambernardi1875]

It applies to multipacks too, 20p x however many drinks in single containers in the multipacks. I agree the recycling system we have just now does seem adequate, think the SG are looking to increase participation further by introducing this new system. They'll obvs be thinking of the environmental benefits of the increased uptake, but also decreasing the work of the LA workers who collect and process recycling from all homes. I think the Agency responsible for implementation has been given a fair bit money, I imagine this is to help business, then eventually smaller shops. I mind being well miffed when I smoked and they stopped smoking in indoor public spaces, now think it was a brilliant policy.

I’m all for the policy, businesses still need answers and reassurances on how it will all work and affect them initially. Something no politician has been able to provide yet which is flaming all the backlash

[hibee]

It benefits the environment first and foremost. Saving the planet will come at a cost, not saving it an even bigger one.

I never go to the supermarket and already recycle all these items in the council recycling boxes that get collected from my front door. These collections will still happen so if I then have to drive to a supermarket to recycle some items then surely that’s harming the environment by adding more car journeys?

[Ozyhibby]

I never go to the supermarket and already recycle all these items in the council recycling boxes that get collected from my front door. These collections will still happen so if I then have to drive to a supermarket to recycle some items then surely that’s harming the environment by adding more car journeys?

If everyone behaved like you it wouldn’t be needed but that’s not the case. We are currently only recycling about 50% of containers compared with 90%+ in countries with the deposit return scheme.
I’ve no idea if the SG is ready properly for this scheme but I’m 110% convinced it’s needed and that it’s not hard to do. If the SG is not ready then it needs paused but it def still needs to happen. And if it’s not ready then Slater needs sacked and someone competent brought in to deliver it.


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[Berwickhibby]

If everyone behaved like you it wouldn’t be needed but that’s not the case. We are currently only recycling about 50% of containers compared with 90%+ in countries with the deposit return scheme.
I’ve no idea if the SG is ready properly for this scheme but I’m 110% convinced it’s needed and that it’s not hard to do. If the SG is not ready then it needs paused but it def still needs to happen. And if it’s not ready then Slater needs sacked and someone competent brought in to deliver it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

👏👏 what most businesses have been saying for months

[Mr Grieves]

I never go to the supermarket and already recycle all these items in the council recycling boxes that get collected from my front door. These collections will still happen so if I then have to drive to a supermarket to recycle some items then surely that’s harming the environment by adding more car journeys?

How do you buy food? Online retailers are obliged to collect containers for those that get home deliveries

[Mr Grieves]

I’m all for the policy, businesses still need answers and reassurances on how it will all work and affect them initially. Something no politician has been able to provide yet which is flaming all the backlash

Circularity Scotland, the organisation responsible for managing the scheme, has literally been set up by businesses. It's self administered with the businesses producing the vast majority of waste onboard :confused:

If anybody actually wants to read how it will work, who's responsible for what, who the members are, or if youre struggling to sleep it's all on here.
https://circularityscotland.com/about/scheme-administrator

[Hibrandenburg]

If everyone behaved like you it wouldn’t be needed but that’s not the case. We are currently only recycling about 50% of containers compared with 90%+ in countries with the deposit return scheme.
I’ve no idea if the SG is ready properly for this scheme but I’m 110% convinced it’s needed and that it’s not hard to do. If the SG is not ready then it needs paused but it def still needs to happen. And if it’s not ready then Slater needs sacked and someone competent brought in to deliver it.


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I don't think there's a single country that rolled out the scheme without it having to be tweaked afterwards. It's like most things, it won't be perfect at first but people and the system will adapt. It would appear that Scotland is the only country that has to get new legislation 100% right before it can be implemented. Nothing will change if the bar is set that high.

[Hibrandenburg]

👏👏 what most businesses have been saying for months

Imagine a society where business called the shots.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I don't think there's a single country that rolled out the scheme without it having to be tweaked afterwards. It's like most things, it won't be perfect at first but people and the system will adapt. It would appear that Scotland is the only country that has to get new legislation 100% right before it can be implemented. Nothing will change if the bar is set that high.

It's intentionally set impossibly high to prevent it from happening. There's a hugely anti-progressive agenda flowing through UK politics and media which has a major influence over peoples views. Even if people like to pretend that they're totally not influenced by the media.

Like you say, it doesn't appear to apply to other countries who just get on with it. The UK is trapped in a conservative economic and sociopolitical time capsule, despite the ever increasing long term damage that it has caused.

[degenerated]

I don't think there's a single country that rolled out the scheme without it having to be tweaked afterwards. It's like most things, it won't be perfect at first but people and the system will adapt. It would appear that Scotland is the only country that has to get new legislation 100% right before it can be implemented. Nothing will change if the bar is set that high.The only thing it appears we are able to do is find problems for every solution.

[He's here!]

How do you buy food? Online retailers are obliged to collect containers for those that get home deliveries

Depending where you live it's still perfectly feasible to do your food shopping at local shops rather than supermarkets, which I'm guessing is what he means.

[Mr Grieves]

Depending where you live it's still perfectly feasible to do your food shopping at local shops rather than supermarkets, which I'm guessing is what he means.

Drinks retailers are legally obliged to take part in the scheme including local shops, so where is the problem?

[Zambernardi1875]

The only thing it appears we are able to do is find problems for every solution.

We are not aware of any funding being available to support the Deposit Return Scheme implementation.

there’s a big problem for small businesses selling these products and having to pay for RVM on site.

[He's here!]

Drinks retailers are legally obliged to take part in the scheme including local shops, so where is the problem?

I wasn't referring to the scheme, just responding to someone who seemed to be implying supermarkets were the only places to buy day-to-day food. Might have misunderstood his post tho.

[archie]

I don't think there's a single country that rolled out the scheme without it having to be tweaked afterwards. It's like most things, it won't be perfect at first but people and the system will adapt. It would appear that Scotland is the only country that has to get new legislation 100% right before it can be implemented. Nothing will change if the bar is set that high.

But you do have to consider unintended consequences and knock on effects. The DRS doesn’t cover glassware for food packaging. But some local authorities are scrapping glass collection citing DRS. So where does all the glassware go that isn't covered by DRS? Most likely landfill. That can't be an outcome anyone wants.

[Ozyhibby]

But you do have to consider unintended consequences and knock on effects. The DRS doesn’t cover glassware for food packaging. But some local authorities are scrapping glass collection citing DRS. So where does all the glassware go that isn't covered by DRS? Most likely landfill. That can't be an outcome anyone wants.

Those are things that are ironed out once the scheme is up and running.


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[Santa Cruz]

Those are things that are ironed out once the scheme is up and running.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why are they waiting until then? If a poster is aware of this, why would a Gov Dept not have considered this and found a solution prior to rolling it out? It seems like it's more important to be the first nation in the UK to launch this policy, than to identify and address the problems prior to the launch, which in turn would make it more succesful. I don't even know if plastic milk bottles that I currently recycle along with my other drink containers are included in this.

[archie]

Those are things that are ironed out once the scheme is up and running.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Surely not. Teething troubles are ironed out, not fundamentals. Just to be clear, I think the principle of the scheme is fine, but the execution is all over the place.

[grunt]

But you do have to consider unintended consequences and knock on effects. The DRS doesn’t cover glassware for food packaging. But some local authorities are scrapping glass collection citing DRS. So where does all the glassware go that isn't covered by DRS? Most likely landfill. That can't be an outcome anyone wants.
Which local authorities are doing this? Wouldn't be Labour run LAs who are proposing to do this for some political motive? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see evidence of LAs suggesting this.

[Santa Cruz]

Which local authorities are doing this? Wouldn't be Labour run LAs who are proposing to do this for some political motive? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see evidence of LAs suggesting this.

Falkirk have said they will stop collecting from September. Others have raised some concerns.

https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/dont-stop-glass-collections-before-drs-rollout-zws-urges/

[archie]

Which local authorities are doing this? Wouldn't be Labour run LAs who are proposing to do this for some political motive? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see evidence of LAs suggesting this.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/23343329.cuts-cleansing-bin-changes-revealed-jobs-go/

[Stairway 2 7]

Which local authorities are doing this? Wouldn't be Labour run LAs who are proposing to do this for some political motive? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be interested to see evidence of LAs suggesting this.

Glasgow and Falkirk are saying they are ending glass pick up both snp. Surely have to add glass jars to the scheme so people don't start throwing them in landfill?

Edit answered above

[grunt]

Glasgow and Falkirk are saying they are ending glass pick up both snp. Surely have to add glass jars to the scheme so people don't start throwing them in landfill?
Well that's disappointing. As you say, needs to be addressed. Perhaps noteworthy that neither has an SNP overall majority.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well that's disappointing. As you say, needs to be addressed.

I'm sure everything can be ironed out pretty easily, it's getting to much press than it deserves.

[Moulin Yarns]

But you do have to consider unintended consequences and knock on effects. The DRS doesn’t cover glassware for food packaging. But some local authorities are scrapping glass collection citing DRS. So where does all the glassware go that isn't covered by DRS? Most likely landfill. That can't be an outcome anyone wants.

Some others don't offer it at the moment! I have to take glass to the recycling centre. But we are getting another bin just for paper and cardboard!

[Callum_62]

West Lothian has never offered glass pick up as far as I know

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[Santa Cruz]

West Lothian has never offered glass pick up as far as I know

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Hadn't realised that. Google says " Currently in Scotland, households in 16 out of the 32 Local Authorities receive some form glass kerbside collection. However, out of the 16 Local Authorities, not all householders are fully served by a kerbside system³¹. For example, Glasgow excludes high densely populated areas."

[hibee]

How do you buy food? Online retailers are obliged to collect containers for those that get home deliveries

I do it all online and have it delivered, I hadn’t read the deposit return scheme in full but have just read the website, seems the online retailers won’t have to bother collecting anything until at least 2025, text below from the deposit return website:

“On 15 December 2022, the Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity proposed to bring forward amendments to the Regulations so that initially only the largest grocery supermarkets will be obliged to provide a takeback service for online orders; all other businesses will be exempt from online takeback.

A new date was proposed for takeback to be available to the public in 2025. Any potential amendments to the Regulations will need to be approved by the Scottish Parliament before taking effect.”

I caught a bit of an interview with Lorna Slater on Sunday, one of the benefits she mentioned was not having broken alcohol bottles all over the streets, I can’t imagine that the drunk teenagers (and older idiots) will stop and think twice because they want to go back and collect 20p, this all seems a bit like punishing the whole class at school because one idiot is misbehaving!

[Moulin Yarns]

Silly question, but what happens if a producer decides not to sign up to the DR'S by today's deadline? Surely they can still produce and sell but the machine will reject them??

[hibee]

Silly question, but what happens if a producer decides not to sign up to the DR'S by today's deadline? Surely they can still produce and sell but the machine will reject them??

According to the man from Innis & Gunn who was on the tv on Sunday he said they would be banned from trading in Scotland if they didn’t sign up!

[James310]

Silly question, but what happens if a producer decides not to sign up to the DR'S by today's deadline? Surely they can still produce and sell but the machine will reject them??

They can't sell in Scotland anymore.

https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/producers-cannot-sell-drinks-in-scotland-without-registering-for-drs/

Although I am unsure who is checking and what actual offence is being committed if they do.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/status/1630632835642998807?t=Privxxb5PmGTGyK9Cf2NFQ&s=19

"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."

Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.

Slater should be binned, not recycled.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/status/1630632835642998807?t=Privxxb5PmGTGyK9Cf2NFQ&s=19

"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."

Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.

Slater should be binned, not recycled.

Labour have just called for her to be dropped from the scheme

@SundayTimesSco
·
🔺NEW. Labour calling on Green minister Lorna Slater to quit over deposit return scheme "chaos", saying she has lost control of the scheme and lost the confidence of Scotland's small businesses

[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/status/1630632835642998807?t=Privxxb5PmGTGyK9Cf2NFQ&s=19

"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."

Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.

Slater should be binned, not recycled.

Ah, the UK internal market act that wasn't supported by the devolved governments in Scotland and Wales because they warned it was attack on devolution. They were right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56800830

[archie]

I'm sure everything can be ironed out pretty easily, it's getting to much press than it deserves.
Hold on a minute. When you have a Government Minister saying it's full steam ahead while all of the candidates for FM are giving different views as to whether it will even happen then that's worthy of attention.

[James310]

Innis & Gunn boss: 'I will not register for Deposit Return Scheme'. We have been advised from the highest levels that we should not sign the producer’s agreement as the DRS is unworkable in its current format.” It can’t be implemented if companies refuse.

[Stairway 2 7]

Only 14.7% of the 4500 producers circularity Scotland expected to sign up by the deadline have. Rumours suppliers have been privately told it will be delayed

[Ozyhibby]

Only 14.7% of the 4500 producers circularity Scotland expected to sign up by the deadline have. Rumours suppliers have been privately told it will be delayed

I just saw a headline saying producers of 95% of Scottish drinks sold had signed up? I guess both could be true.
I think it’s inevitable it gets delayed then depending on who wins leadership election it will either proceed or be stopped.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I just saw a headline saying producers of 95% of Scottish drinks sold had signed up? I guess both could be true.
I think it’s inevitable it gets delayed then depending on who wins leadership election it will either proceed or be stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

90% of products sold most are from about 20 companies though. Most small producers haven't, so grand if you want Tennents or Coke but not ipa from a small company

[Ozyhibby]

90% of products sold most are from about 20 companies though. Most small producers haven't, so grand if you want Tennents or Coke but not ipa from a small company

I’m sure that small changes will be made and grace periods given to the smaller producers.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m sure that small changes will be made and grace periods given to the smaller producers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Slater said on Sunday they were considering giving small producers 12 extension. Baffling they were still mulling it 2 days before deadline

[Just Alf]

I’m sure that small changes will be made and grace periods given to the smaller producers.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWould make sense... its a bit of a mare how it seems to be getting implemented.

I like the current system, just a shame so many don't use it/do it properly meaning this new scheme is needed.

[Just Alf]

Slater said on Sunday they were considering giving small producers 12 extension. Baffling they were still mulling it 2 days before deadlineYup, she also said that discussion had been had with Westminster (she said who it was, Teresa C???) But feels like it's been 'talks' and no official request .... assuming who you belive.

[Berwickhibby]

This is the sort of shambles I would expect when you let an idiot like Lorna Slater run a scheme like this

[JimBHibees]

https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/status/1630632835642998807?t=Privxxb5PmGTGyK9Cf2NFQ&s=19

"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."

Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.

Slater should be binned, not recycled.

Surprised you have chosen to believe the Tory

[He's here!]

Slater said on Sunday they were considering giving small producers 12 extension. Baffling they were still mulling it 2 days before deadline

Only one in six firms have signed up for the scheme by the deadline.

[Callum_62]

Interesting
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23355538.calls-alister-jack-sacked-amid-claim-misled-parliament/


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[WhileTheChief..]

“DRS will go down in history as one of the most important pieces of work ever done by this parliament"

Really???!!!

[degenerated]

Interesting
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23355538.calls-alister-jack-sacked-amid-claim-misled-parliament/


Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkThat's awkward, and entirely unsurprising.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Interesting
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23355538.calls-alister-jack-sacked-amid-claim-misled-parliament/


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Really dislike the term "misleading parliament". A desperate round about way to avoid calling these people liars. In any other walk of life, you'd be called out as a liar, not "misleading". Alister Jack is a liar.

[James310]

I guess to clear it all up the Scottish Government could publish the request and that would prove really embarrassing for Alastair Jack.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I guess to clear it all up the Scottish Government could publish the request and that would prove really embarrassing for Alastair Jack.

Did you read the article?


“Contrary to his claim in the House of Commons that no exemption has been sought for the DRS, documents released by the Scottish Government yesterday showed that initial discussions began in 2021, were stepped up in 2022 – and in January, the Deputy First Minister was forced to write to the UK Government expressing his alarm at the lack of progress”, she said.

I don't think Alister Jack is capable of feeling "embarrassment". Which is why he holds the position he holds.

[archie]

Did you read the article?



I don't think Alister Jack is capable of feeling "embarrassment". Which is why he holds the position he holds.

Oddly the article doesn't actually cite a formal request.

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/ScotSecofState/status/1630632835642998807?t=Privxxb5PmGTGyK9Cf2NFQ&s=19

"Alister Jack: No UKG ministers have received a formal request setting out the scope & rationale for a UKIM exemption for the SG's DRS. Should a request be received, it will be considered by the relevant W’hall depts. As I have set out, the bar for a UKIM exemption is very high."

Take the politics out of this for a minute, the deadline for registration is tonight and the Scottish Government (Lorna Slater) hasn't done one of the most critical and fundamental things it needs to do.

Slater should be binned, not recycled.


Interesting
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23355538.calls-alister-jack-sacked-amid-claim-misled-parliament/


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This is poor from both Governments. It looks like both are playing games. Westminster’s get out is no formal application has been received. (Whatever that means.) Rather than saying we’ve mentioned it a few times Holyrood should have clarified exactly what is required and just done it. This is important legislation being used needlessly as a political football. Pathetic stuff from our politicians again.

[James310]

Did you read the article?



I don't think Alister Jack is capable of feeling "embarrassment". Which is why he holds the position he holds.

Discussions are not a formal request.

[grunt]

Discussions are not a formal request.
Unless you're discussing a formal request.

[Santa Cruz]

Unless you're discussing a formal request.

You think two Gov's who don't trust each other enter into informal discussions without any officials present, or any record of the discussion documented?

[James310]

Unless you're discussing a formal request.

Well easy to clear up, publish the formal request. Bet we don't see it, cause it doesn't exist.

[Callum_62]

That's the key part

initial discussions began in 2021, were stepped up in 2022 – and in January, the Deputy First Minister was forced to write to the UK Government expressing his alarm at the lack of progress”, she said.

Lack of progress in what? I'm. Assuming it's a lot more complex that complete form 1619A and there you go - we'll done Scottish Govt

What is it the Scots give see as the UK Govt holding up?

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[Callum_62]

Well easy to clear up, publish the formal request. Bet we don't see it, cause it doesn't exist.If it doesn't exist the question is why doenst it exist surley?

As I said above what is the hold up if discussions started from 2021 through 2022 and highlighted as being little progress in January

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[grunt]

Well easy to clear up, publish the formal request. Bet we don't see it, cause it doesn't exist.:na na:

[James310]

:na na:

Not your finest response on here.

It's pretty obvious Lorna Slater hasn't submitted any formal request, if she had she can publish it. If she has and Alastair Jack is lying it should be easy to prove and he should be sacked if he is lying.

[grunt]

Not your finest response on here.
It was in reply to your offer of a bet. I thought it sounded like something from the playground so I replied in the same terms.

[James310]

It was in reply to your offer of a bet. I thought it sounded like something from the playground so I replied in the same terms.

It wasn't a literal bet, a figure of speech.

[grunt]

It wasn't a literal bet, a figure of speech.I wasn't literally sticking my tongue out at you, it was an emoji.

[SteveHFC]

https://twitter.com/markruskell/status/1631203919463325697?s=46&t=nIBmbje2FwRO8RUTrNIMuw

Shame that @innisandgunn are boycotting Scotland’s bottle #DepositReturnScheme but they’ve always tasted better on draft anyway.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/markruskell/status/1631203919463325697?s=46&t=nIBmbje2FwRO8RUTrNIMuw

Shame that @innisandgunn are boycotting Scotland’s bottle #DepositReturnScheme but they’ve always tasted better on draft anyway.

With a pre-deadline sign-up of just 664 of the 4,500 producers initially estimated to be required to make the scheme work it's little wonder all 3 SNP leadership candidates have stated it won't go ahead in its current form. They'll not want this sort of baggage to contend with from their first day in the job. I suspect that even if the Greens don't quit government in protest at yet another delay (coupled by an SG failure to challenge the gender bill s35) she'll be replaced as the minister in charge of this mess.

[Moulin Yarns]

With a pre-deadline sign-up of just 664 of the 4,500 producers initially estimated to be required to make the scheme work it's little wonder all 3 SNP leadership candidates have stated it won't go ahead in its current form. They'll not want this sort of baggage to contend with from their first day in the job. I suspect that even if the Greens don't quit government in protest at yet another delay (coupled by an SG failure to challenge the gender bill s35) she'll be replaced as the minister in charge of this mess.

I'm sure that it was said something about 95% of the total number of different products is signed up. So the majority of what people buy and drink is included. Yes, small producers like my neighbours, Wasted Degrees, might not have signed up, and I understand why, but the number of cans and bottles included far outnumber those that aren't.

[Zambernardi1875]

I'm sure that it was said something about 95% of the total number of different products is signed up. So the majority of what people buy and drink is included. Yes, small producers like my neighbours, Wasted Degrees, might not have signed up, and I understand why, but the number of cans and bottles included far outnumber those that aren't.

I wonder if a lot of these small companies will change to the mini keg market and outwith Scotland instead.

[Hibrandenburg]

I wonder if a lot of these small companies will change to the mini keg market and outwith Scotland instead.

Everywhere this system has been introduced, some drinks retailers have been pleading poverty, but surprise surprise they're all still producing and selling their goods and life goes on, just with a lot more recycling.

[WeeRussell]

Everywhere this system has been introduced, some drinks retailers have been pleading poverty, but surprise surprise they're all still producing and selling their goods and life goes on, just with a lot more recycling.

Sounds good to me.

[archie]

Everywhere this system has been introduced, some drinks retailers have been pleading poverty, but surprise surprise they're all still producing and selling their goods and life goes on, just with a lot more recycling.

Maybe so, but the process here has been absolutely chaotic. We have a government minister in the Parliament saying full steam ahead while the three candidates for FM give different versions of the way forward.

[James310]

Everywhere this system has been introduced, some drinks retailers have been pleading poverty, but surprise surprise they're all still producing and selling their goods and life goes on, just with a lot more recycling.

Maybe they had competent people responsible for the roll out?

[James310]

John Nicolson SNP MP has been accused of using an “ignorant racial slur” after saying politicians who apply their own make up look “overly brown” and “tandoori themselves”.

Odd thing to say.

[grunt]

john nicolson snp mp has been accused of using an “ignorant racial slur” after saying politicians who apply their own make up look “overly brown” and “tandoori themselves”.

Odd thing to say.
ffs.

[Just Alf]

John Nicolson SNP MP has been accused of using an “ignorant racial slur” after saying politicians who apply their own make up look “overly brown” and “tandoori themselves”.

Odd thing to say.1st bit I get, too much make up often looks strange, especially when a wee bit's missed... but "tandoori"? Jeezo ...

[archie]

John Nicolson SNP MP has been accused of using an “ignorant racial slur” after saying politicians who apply their own make up look “overly brown” and “tandoori themselves”.

Odd thing to say.

I think he's one of these MPs who is hated more by members of his own party than opponents.

[Callum_62]

STV News understands the offer, which could be tabled tomorrow, is made up of a 7% rise this year, a 4.5% rise up to December this year and a 2% increase from January to August next year.

Apparent new Scottish teachers pay offer

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[James310]

I think he's one of these MPs who is hated more by members of his own party than opponents.

He seems to have been around forever but done very little.

Edit, seems he has not been an MP that long but used to be a news reporter so that's why I probably think he has been around for a while.

[Mr Grieves]

I wonder if a lot of these small companies will change to the mini keg market and outwith Scotland instead.

I doubt it, they'll be facing a similar industry led scheme when this is introduced in the rest of the UK.

[Hibrandenburg]

Maybe they had competent people responsible for the roll out?

Aye, Scotland's people are too stupid to adapt a system that has successfully been implemented in numerous other countries. In all those countries there were people like you saying it'll never work in its current form and they were partially correct, but low and behold after gaining experience and ironing out teething problems it did work. But not in Scotland James, we're too stupid to make it work.

[Jack]

It's not as if the UK government have been open and honest in negotiations, or indeed anything, with anyone over the last few years. Why would anyone all of a sudden think there's there's been an outbreak of honesty?

Wishful thinking at best by some, more likely deluded.

[One Day Soon]

I think he's one of these MPs who is hated more by members of his own party than opponents.

I wouldn’t bet on it.

[One Day Soon]

Aye, Scotland's people are too stupid to adapt a system that has successfully been implemented in numerous other countries. In all those countries there were people like you saying it'll never work in its current form and they were partially correct, but low and behold after gaining experience and ironing out teething problems it did work. But not in Scotland James, we're too stupid to make it work.

Careful now, that’s all sounding a bit John Swinney.

[Hibrandenburg]

Careful now, that’s all sounding a bit John Swinney.

I'm not the one suggesting Scotland hasn't the talent to implement progressive policy, not sure if John Swinney did either.

[One Day Soon]

I'm not the one suggesting Scotland hasn't the talent to implement progressive policy, not sure if John Swinney did either.

But you did get quite close to paraphrasing his ‘too wee, too poor” line that he made up.

[grunt]

He seems to have been around forever but done very little.
What makes you think he's done very little? Have you seen him on the DCMS grilling the BBC chair about Johnson, or Nadine Dorries about C4?

[Hibrandenburg]

But you did get quite close to paraphrasing his ‘too wee, too poor” line that he made up.

Intentionally, because he wasn't far from the truth. It's a frequent argument from unionists that Scotland isn't capable of doing things that other countries take in their stride, we couldn't possibly do it without the support of Westminster.

[archie]

Intentionally, because he wasn't far from the truth. It's a frequent argument from unionists that Scotland isn't capable of doing things that other countries take in their stride, we couldn't possibly do it without the support of Westminster.

I don't think people are saying that. It's whether the pain to get there is worth it and if the outcomes for the people of Scotland will be any better? None of that is clear.

[He's here!]

STV News understands the offer, which could be tabled tomorrow, is made up of a 7% rise this year, a 4.5% rise up to December this year and a 2% increase from January to August next year.

Apparent new Scottish teachers pay offer

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They might actually reach a compromise with that offer. And they really need to before the next 20-day batch of rolling strikes begins. The days off school were a happy novelty for kids to start with but there are far too many days being missed now.

Suspect Somerville won't last long in her post once the new FM is appointed.

[Santa Cruz]

Intentionally, because he wasn't far from the truth. It's a frequent argument from unionists that Scotland isn't capable of doing things that other countries take in their stride, we couldn't possibly do it without the support of Westminster.


Like this?

https://www.scottishhousingnews.com/articles/transfer-of-welfare-benefits-role-could-be-delayed-until-2026

[Callum_62]

They might actually reach a compromise with that offer. And they really need to before the next 20-day batch of rolling strikes begins. The days off school were a happy novelty for kids to start with but there are far too many days being missed now.

Suspect Somerville won't last long in her post once thd new FM is appointed.It's very very similar to the previous offer though

I imagine eis will put it to the members though and they will probably just accept it because they will be fed up waiting and losing money on strike days

Mental this is April 2022 pay review

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[Callum_62]

They might actually reach a compromise with that offer. And they really need to before the next 20-day batch of rolling strikes begins. The days off school were a happy novelty for kids to start with but there are far too many days being missed now.

Suspect Somerville won't last long in her post once thd new FM is appointed.BBC have slightly different figures

It is thought the possible offer to be discussed by council leaders may mean:

A 7% rise covering 2022/23

A 5% rise from this April

A further 2% rise in January 2024, to last until next August.

I'm. Not sure where this "to August" comes from - they just added 4 months onto a salary year [emoji1787]

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[heretoday]

Teachers will be back on strike next year along with everyone else in the public sector. You can't just throw money at them. Better to try and fix the system so they have a less stressful job.

[Zambernardi1875]

Teachers will be back on strike next year along with everyone else in the public sector. You can't just throw money at them. Better to try and fix the system so they have a less stressful job.

I’ll take the 13 weeks off all in the main holiday seasons, no night shifts no weekends plus all the rest.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’ll take the 13 weeks off all in the main holiday seasons, no night shifts no weekends plus all the rest.

Go for it mate, they are crying out for teachers 👍

[Bristolhibby]

I’ll take the 13 weeks off all in the main holiday seasons, no night shifts no weekends plus all the rest.

Evenings marking, prep for the next day in your own time, helping pupils that you suspect are being abused, counselling a kid who has lost all confidence after a parent died in your lunch breaks, planning and delivering outdoor bound trips (in your own time), coaching the year 10 rugby team, taking them to Saturday morning fixtures.

Yip, they get it easy.

J

[Zambernardi1875]

Go for it mate, they are crying out for teachers 👍

Job Description Supply Teachers (Primary) REF: EDUC/SUPPLY 22/23 Salary: £33,729 - £42,336 (pro rata) Location: Inverclyde Area Primary Schools

I just have, thanks for the heads up.

[Callum_62]

I’ll take the 13 weeks off all in the main holiday seasons, no night shifts no weekends plus all the rest.I always laugh when I see this - being married to a teacher

Let me know how it goes in the land of milk and honey

BTW, supply? Part time/casual on a job you already see as barely there?

Thought you'd be all over a straight in perm job?

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[Ozyhibby]

Tories always go on about letting the market decide the price and right now there are shortages of teachers, nurses, doctors etc etc but suddenly they don’t seem to want to pay the money to allow the market to clear?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Compared to the last year of Gordon brown in real term they are £9000 a year worse of, if I was in the job I'd be doing more than complaining. Here the same about nurses wages, wish I had it.

Go for it start studying now and go for it, we literally can't get people from other countries to fill the jobs, we are desperate

[Stairway 2 7]

Tories always go on about letting the market decide the price and right now there are shortages of teachers, nurses, doctors etc etc but suddenly they don’t seem to want to pay the money to allow the market to clear?


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It's like the petrol prices, the market only seems to effect one way. They have pushed public sector jobs so far down that people from South East Asia that we usually try to steal would rather go to mainland Europe, UK public won't touch it. We are in a crisis and the amount of people training just now tells us it will actually get worse

[He's here!]

Evenings marking, prep for the next day in your own time, helping pupils that you suspect are being abused, counselling a kid who has lost all confidence after a parent died in your lunch breaks, planning and delivering outdoor bound trips (in your own time), coaching the year 10 rugby team, taking them to Saturday morning fixtures.

Yip, they get it easy.

J

I could add...being placed in a hugely disruptive class in your probation year with kids who are there only due to the SG's nice on paper but hopelessly under-resourced 'presumption of mainstreaming' policy. Getting hit by a desk thrown across the room when intervening in what were near daily disruptions and ultimately quitting the profession. That may sound like an extreme example but the amount of violence which doesn't make the headlines in certain schools would shock a lot of people. Physical and verbal abuse is something I witness regularly and IMHO most teachers go above and beyond what should be expected of them. It's a high pressure, vastly underappreciated profession.

[archie]

I have friends and family who work in teaching. In one case a young person has passed probation, been given a one year contract and in their area there are no jobs to apply for. It's really bad for young people in teaching.

[Smartie]

There’s not exactly been a shortage of disillusionment over the past decade or so, but I’d say the teaching profession have been the most disillusioned.

It’s probably the line of work I’d least like to go into. Being a high school teacher is my idea of hell.

[Bostonhibby]

There’s not exactly been a shortage of disillusionment over the past decade or so, but I’d say the teaching profession have been the most disillusioned.

It’s probably the line of work I’d least like to go into. Being a high school teacher is my idea of hell.I have a family member who is a teacher and you are right on the money, just keeping pace with the marking and other form filling plus the many other responsibilities that are not just teaching means they frequently work late into the evening and the weekends. All whilst their real term wages are in decline.

Suggestions that its strictly working hours only and an easy job are deluded, stirring, or both.

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[He's here!]

It's very very similar to the previous offer though

I imagine eis will put it to the members though and they will probably just accept it because they will be fed up waiting and losing money on strike days

Mental this is April 2022 pay review

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64849892

NASUWT brands offer 'paltry' and vows to continue industrial action.

[Glory Lurker]

NASUWT brands offer 'paltry' and vows to continue industrial action.

As a Tory, what do you think should happen?

[Santa Cruz]

NASUWT brands offer 'paltry' and vows to continue industrial action.

Just read they were excluded from the negotiations with the SG and EIS, bit odd if true.

[WhileTheChief..]

How do the different grades work to achieve the higher salaries? Is it mostly down to the number of years you've been teaching?

https://www.eis.org.uk/pay-and-conditions-of-service/salary-scales

[Callum_62]

How do the different grades work to achieve the higher salaries? Is it mostly down to the number of years you've been teaching?

https://www.eis.org.uk/pay-and-conditions-of-service/salary-scalesYes

Each grade is year

Pretty much top out at grade 5 though (chartered teachers no longer a thing in Scotland I believe)

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[LewysGot2]

Yes

Each grade is year

Pretty much top out at grade 5 though (chartered teachers no longer a thing in Scotland I believe)

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Not in promoted posts though, I think? It is in the main scale. Think the size of the school determines what a heidie gets paid and what a principal teacher gets paid.

Being a secondary teacher must be a completely unrelenting job. Folk who struggle with a couple of teenagers of their own, like me, take my hat off to them. My kids not too bad but some of their class mates...that's a different ball game.

Love how folks go on about their holidays. I know from a teacher pal they get the same number of paid holidays as me. 30 annual leave plus 10 public holidays. The rest are "school closure days' that they don't get paid for. If school year increased we'd have to pay them for those days.
And, as a secondary teacher, anyone has to go to uni for 5 years - 4 for a specialist degree, one for a post graduate qualification in education.

There is a growing and persistent recruitment and retention problem that is going to undermine the whole system. So anyone who thinks they're up to it, have the 5 years at uni under their belt please step up. The education system and our kids are crying out for you to save the system...

I couldn't do it.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes

Each grade is year

Pretty much top out at grade 5 though (chartered teachers no longer a thing in Scotland I believe)

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IMO there should be a higher pay grade for teachers teaching in difficult school in deprived areas.


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[Callum_62]

IMO there should be a higher pay grade for teachers teaching in difficult school in deprived areas.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWe should call it 'danger money'

[emoji23]

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[Callum_62]

Not in promoted posts though, I think? It is in the main scale. Think the size of the school determines what a heidie gets paid and what a principal teacher gets paid.

Being a secondary teacher must be a completely unrelenting job. Folk who struggle with a couple of teenagers of their own, like me, take my hat off to them. My kids not too bad but some of their class mates...that's a different ball game.

Love how folks go on about their holidays. I know from a teacher pal they get the same number of paid holidays as me. 30 annual leave plus 10 public holidays. The rest are "school closure days' that they don't get paid for. If school year increased we'd have to pay them for those days.
And, as a secondary teacher, anyone has to go to uni for 5 years - 4 for a specialist degree, one for a post graduate qualification in education.

There is a growing and persistent recruitment and retention problem that is going to undermine the whole system. So anyone who thinks they're up to it, have the 5 years at uni under their belt please step up. The education system and our kids are crying out for you to save the system...

I couldn't do it.Yeha that might just be on the main grade scale - I'm not sure

I know my wife has absolutely no interest in pursuing a principle teacher role

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[LewysGot2]

We should call it 'danger money'

[emoji23]

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Interesting concept. Sure recruitment to schools in areas of deprivation is harder. Like in the islands - where a higher wage is paid, I think? So paid more to teach in Castlemilk than Newton Mearns...? Wonder what the unions take would be.

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting concept. Sure recruitment to schools in areas of deprivation is harder. Like in the islands - where a higher wage is paid, I think? So paid more to teach in Castlemilk than Newton Mearns...? Wonder what the unions take would be.

It is much harder to recruit for difficult schools. The result is that difficult schools often get last pick of capable teachers. And they don’t stay as long either.


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[Hibs4185]

My wife worked in one of the roughest schools in Edinburgh in regards to poverty.

The teachers actually found it more rewarding as the kids loved coming to school and there wasn’t so much of the pushy parents to deal with.

But some of the police reports and stories were pretty harrowing.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64870679

'Reckless DRS scheme doomed to fail, business leaders warn Sturgeon'

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64876280

Why the hefty difference in the figure given for the 'proceeds of crime' and the amount she was found guilty of embezzling?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64876280

Why the hefty difference in the figure given for the 'proceeds of crime' and the amount she was found guilty of embezzling?

She is said to have bought property which has increased in value as far as I can remember.


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[One Day Soon]

She is said to have bought property which has increased in value as far as I can remember.


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This is a really desperate case now. I am all for appropriate punishment but also rehabilitation in any case where it is possible. In this instance it seems to me that she has inflicted as much or more punishment on herself one way and another through the serially bad decisions she has made than any court can sensibly manage.

[archie]

This is a really desperate case now. I am all for appropriate punishment but also rehabilitation in any case where it is possible. In this instance it seems to me that she has inflicted as much or more punishment on herself one way and another through the serially bad decisions she has made than any court can sensibly manage.
TBH I think she needs help, not punishment. But I guess she had a number of things going agaist her. I think the absolute lack of contrition and sense of playing the system didn't look good. Some have said she had problems because of her deep SNP connections. But the statements from yes supporters in evidence were damning. But I still think she is more in need of care than incarceration, but I'm a liberal softy.

[One Day Soon]

TBH I think she needs help, not punishment. But I guess she had a number of things going agaist her. I think the absolute lack of contrition and sense of playing the system didn't look good. Some have said she had problems because of her deep SNP connections. But the statements from yes supporters in evidence were damning. But I still think she is more in need of care than incarceration, but I'm a liberal softy.

I'm inclined to agree with that. She's either been very badly advised or isn't very bright or won't listen - or a mixture of all three.

[Ozyhibby]

This is a really desperate case now. I am all for appropriate punishment but also rehabilitation in any case where it is possible. In this instance it seems to me that she has inflicted as much or more punishment on herself one way and another through the serially bad decisions she has made than any court can sensibly manage.

The law is the law. Personally feel we are too soft on white collar crime in this country. Jail not appropriate but no profit from the crime should be allowed.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Interesting dynamic emerging from Forbes - mask slips, gets criticised by everyone, tries to wriggle mask back on, supporters pretend nothing super weird just happened.

[J-C]

Interesting dynamic emerging from Forbes - mask slips, gets criticised by everyone, tries to wriggle mask back on, supporters pretend nothing super weird just happened.


Did she spit in your coffee? you have a very strong weird dislike for her, bordering on obsessive.

[grunt]

Did she spit in your coffee? you have a very strong weird dislike for her, bordering on obsessive.She's a fundamentalist bigot, apparently. ADC doesn't like fundamentalist bigots.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Did she spit in your coffee? you have a very strong weird dislike for her, bordering on obsessive.

I think the Free Church is a profoundly problematic institution, and she has done nothing to reassure me that it's not going to inform how she governs. She can't even bring herself to say that abortion and homosexuality aren't wrong. She's also been extremely slippery in the debates, and I believe, based on noises she has made in the past, that she'll pull the SNP to the right.

[AgentDaleCooper]

She's a fundamentalist bigot, apparently. ADC doesn't like fundamentalist bigots.

:aok:

(amused by your ironic tone, by the way :greengrin )

[grunt]

She's also been extremely slippery in the debates, and I believe, based on noises she has made in the past, that she'll pull the SNP to the right.
Despite her saying that she'll do the opposite?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Despite her saying that she'll do the opposite?

where, and with what amount of substance?

[grunt]

where, and with what amount of substance?

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/economic-plan-signals-major-change-in-scottish-government-strategy


Forbes also announced that a ‘fair work’ condition would apply to future Scottish government grants - requiring recipients to pay the real living wage – and promised to establish a “centre of expertise in equality and human rights” within the administration. She said the employability system would be simplified by implementing a “no one left behind” approach, focused on giving individuals the right support to help improve their life chances.

The national strategy also included reforms to create a culture of delivery and accountability, including the restructure of existing Scottish government boards to create one co-chaired by Forbes and a figure from the private sector. A “wellbeing economy monitor” will also be published under the plans, to integrate wellbeing into the Scottish government’s measurements and policy development.

[Berwickhibby]

SNP lose Corstorphine/Murrayfield seat yesterday after Council By election to Lib Dem’s https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13668/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-result

[Ozyhibby]

SNP lose Corstorphine/Murrayfield seat yesterday after Council By election to Lib Dem’s https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13668/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-result

It’s a safe Lib Dem seat and was never going to be any other way.


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[Mr Grieves]

SNP lose Corstorphine/Murrayfield seat yesterday after Council By election to Lib Dem’s https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13668/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-result


Number of councillors by party-
SNP 18
Lib Dems 13
Labour 12
Green 10
Conservative 9
Independent1

Surely labour can't hold on to power?

[One Day Soon]

Number of councillors by party-
SNP 18
Lib Dems 13
Labour 12
Green 10
Conservative 9
Independent1

Surely labour can't hold on to power?


It looks improbable that they already are in power but how does the SNP losing a councillor to the Lib Dems weaken whatever hold on power Labour does have?

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s a safe Lib Dem seat and was never going to be any other way.


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Frank Ross was SNP, no?

[One Day Soon]

Frank Ross was SNP, no?

Yes and one of the few competent ones. It was always going to be a Lib Dem gain in a by-election but what should really worry the SNP is the 5% or so drop in their first preference votes compared to the council elections last year. They're on the slide and it's only going to get worse.

[Santa Cruz]

Frank Ross was SNP, no?

Did he stand down, maybe the reason for this by-election? Candidate listed in the results linked to the OP's post is called Donald Rutherford.

[CropleyWasGod]

Did he stand down, maybe the reason for this by-election? Candidate listed in the results linked to the OP's post is called Donald Rutherford.

Yeah, in December.

[Santa Cruz]

EIS agree to accept pay award. 90% of members voted to accept.

[Ozyhibby]

EIS agree to accept pay award. 90% of members voted to accept.

We’ll done to the SG and councils. And we’ll done to the teachers in winning a good deal.


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[He's here!]

We’ll done to the SG and councils. And we’ll done to the teachers in winning a good deal.


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The SG emerge with next to no credit. Somerville was beyond hopeless throughout. Little surprise when you appoint somebody whose continued presence at Holyrood owes considerably more to good fortune than ability. And that's not just me bashing the SNP. I've learned from experience within my own profession how hapless she is. I'll be amazed if she retains a ministerial post once a new leader is appointed. Yousef, I guess, might maintain an old pals act but really, no leader concerned with the good of education in Scotland should even consider her.

[Santa Cruz]

The SG emerge with next to no credit. Somerville was beyond hopeless throughout. Little surprise when you appoint somebody whose continued presence at Holyrood owes considerably more to good fortune than ability. And that's not just me bashing the SNP. I've learned from experience within my own profession how hapless she is. I'll be amazed if she retains a ministerial post once a new leader is appointed. Yousef, I guess, might maintain an old pals act but really, no leader concerned with the good of education in Scotland should even consider her.

Am I right in saying the Transport Sec used to be a Teacher?

[Ozyhibby]

The SG emerge with next to no credit. Somerville was beyond hopeless throughout. Little surprise when you appoint somebody whose continued presence at Holyrood owes considerably more to good fortune than ability. And that's not just me bashing the SNP. I've learned from experience within my own profession how hapless she is. I'll be amazed if she retains a ministerial post once a new leader is appointed. Yousef, I guess, might maintain an old pals act but really, no leader concerned with the good of education in Scotland should even consider her.

The SG have got a deal though and the teachers are back at school. That’s good.
Have the UK got a deal down south yet?


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[One Day Soon]

The SG have got a deal though and the teachers are back at school. That’s good.
Have the UK got a deal down south yet?


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Remember Ozy, we're not supposed to compare Scotland with other countries.

[cabbageandribs1875]

The SG have got a deal though and the teachers are back at school. That’s good.
Have the UK got a deal down south yet?


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oh some will be angry/disappointed a deal was reached, doesn't suit their anti-SNP agenda :boo hoo: but, but, but

[grunt]

The SG emerge with next to no credit. Somerville was beyond hopeless throughout. Little surprise when you appoint somebody whose continued presence at Holyrood owes considerably more to good fortune than ability. And that's not just me bashing the SNP. I've learned from experience within my own profession how hapless she is. I'll be amazed if she retains a ministerial post once a new leader is appointed. Yousef, I guess, might maintain an old pals act but really, no leader concerned with the good of education in Scotland should even consider her.
:greengrin

[Mr Grieves]

It looks improbable that they already are in power but how does the SNP losing a councillor to the Lib Dems weaken whatever hold on power Labour does have?

The 3rd biggest party working to the budget of the 2nd biggest party and continuing to rely on their votes doesn't seem sustainable to me :dunno:

[He's here!]

Am I right in saying the Transport Sec used to be a Teacher?

Yes I believe so. It might help, but it needn't be a pre-requisite for the role. Basic competence should be the starting point.

[He's here!]

oh some will be angry/disappointed a deal was reached, doesn't suit their anti-SNP agenda :boo hoo: but, but, but

Glad a deal has been reached. Been too many days lost already (try re-adjusting the routine of a kid with severe ASN to a three-day school week...not the most fun). Just pointing out that the education secretary was exposed as clueless throughout the negotiations.

[Mibbes Aye]

Am I right in saying the Transport Sec used to be a Teacher?

Michael Matheson was an OT.

[Glory Lurker]

Glad a deal has been reached. Been too many days lost already (try re-adjusting the routine of a kid with severe ASN to a three-day school week...not the most fun). Just pointing out that the education secretary was exposed as clueless throughout the negotiations.

I asked a while back what you thought the SG should do. Is this settlement what your answer would be?

[Santa Cruz]

Michael Matheson was an OT.

I'll have a stab at it, guessing an Occupational Therapist??

[Mibbes Aye]

I'll have a stab at it, guessing an Occupational Therapist??

Sorry :greengrin.

Yes, occupational therapist.

[marinello59]

EIS agree to accept pay award. 90% of members voted to accept.

Well done to the Teachers who stuck to their guns after the employers forced them out on strike when the money was there all along.
Join a Union.

[He's here!]

I asked a while back what you thought the SG should do. Is this settlement what your answer would be?

They should have abandoned their delaying tactics long ago. The unions were always prepared to compromise (although I see the NASUWT are still digging their heels in) but were rightly scornful of the pitiful offer made before industrial action became the only option - as well as the subsequent 'offers' dressed up as an improvement. Coming up with an acceptable offer should never have taken this long and Somerville's ineptitude has badly damaged relations between the SG and teaching unions. You won't find teachers celebrating the fact they've had to disrupt schooling for so long, which makes Somerville hailing this as a 'historic agreement' stick in the craw.

[One Day Soon]

They should have abandoned their delaying tactics long ago. The unions were always prepared to compromise (although I see the NASUWT are still digging their heels in) but were rightly scornful of the pitiful offer made before industrial action became the only option - as well as the subsequent 'offers' dressed up as an improvement. Coming up with an acceptable offer should never have taken this long and Somerville's ineptitude has badly damaged relations between the SG and teaching unions. You won't find teachers celebrating the fact they've had to disrupt schooling for so long, which makes Somerville hailing this as a 'historic agreement' stick in the craw.

The only reason Somerville and Robison are Ministers at all is due to their proximity to Sturgeon. Pretty much universally thought of as deeply useless throughout their departments and client groups.

[He's here!]

The only reason Somerville and Robison are Ministers at all is due to their proximity to Sturgeon. Pretty much universally thought of as deeply useless throughout their departments and client groups.

Robison...jeez, another who will be flying the flag for Yousef. Mind-boggling that she got back into government after her disastrous tenure as health secretary.

Somerville managed to retain high-profile roles at Holyrood for around 10 years despite failing (in humiliating fashion) to be elected as an MSP. She was appointed to the post of 'deputy chief executive', a post which never existed before and has not existed since - and you can only assume this came about because, as you say, of who she knew.

[Smartie]

Robison...jeez, another who will be flying the flag for Yousef. Mind-boggling that she got back into government after her disastrous tenure as health secretary.

Somerville managed to retain high-profile roles at Holyrood for around 10 years despite failing (in humiliating fashion) to be elected as an MSP. She was appointed to the post of 'deputy chief executive', a post which never existed before and has not existed since - and you can only assume this came about because, as you say, of who she knew.

Somerville stood in my constituency (Leith) in what must have been 2011. She was a bit unlucky in that she stood against a popular and competent local politician in Malcolm Chisholm and in truth there was no shame in losing to someone like him. The SNP were rising in popularity and success at that time and I remember speaking to folk within the party - they acknowledged that it was an odd situation that she didn't hold office considering many people they considered to be less able did.

She then worked on the 2014 referendum, once standing but coming second in a Labour stronghold (something that was once a thing pre-2014) before winning a seat at a time when we were into chimpanzee/ yellow rosette territory.


Could you please expand on her humiliating failure to be elected as an MSP? On what occasion was this, and what was particularly humiliating about it?

Do you find it all that unusual that someone might be employed in a role by the SNP during a referendum holding decade, with that role not being needed at other times?

Has there ever really been a "deputy chief executive" of the SNP? I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

Is there any factual basis for any of the opinions you state in your post?

[JimBHibees]

Robison...jeez, another who will be flying the flag for Yousef. Mind-boggling that she got back into government after her disastrous tenure as health secretary.

Somerville managed to retain high-profile roles at Holyrood for around 10 years despite failing (in humiliating fashion) to be elected as an MSP. She was appointed to the post of 'deputy chief executive', a post which never existed before and has not existed since - and you can only assume this came about because, as you say, of who she knew.

You seem annoyed a deal was reached

[He's here!]

You seem annoyed a deal was reached

I'm irritated that Somerville is claiming any credit for it for reasons I've explained above.

[He's here!]

Somerville stood in my constituency (Leith) in what must have been 2011. She was a bit unlucky in that she stood against a popular and competent local politician in Malcolm Chisholm and in truth there was no shame in losing to someone like him. The SNP were rising in popularity and success at that time and I remember speaking to folk within the party - they acknowledged that it was an odd situation that she didn't hold office considering many people they considered to be less able did.

She then worked on the 2014 referendum, once standing but coming second in a Labour stronghold (something that was once a thing pre-2014) before winning a seat at a time when we were into chimpanzee/ yellow rosette territory.


Could you please expand on her humiliating failure to be elected as an MSP? On what occasion was this, and what was particularly humiliating about it?

Do you find it all that unusual that someone might be employed in a role by the SNP during a referendum holding decade, with that role not being needed at other times?

Has there ever really been a "deputy chief executive" of the SNP? I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

Is there any factual basis for any of the opinions you state in your post?

I work within the City of Edinburgh Council's education department so let's just say opinions of her largely tally with what One Day Soon has to say about her in his post above.

As for her career path, this article saves me typing out its chronology:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/soapbox-the-invisible-woman/

I know the source is notoriously anti-SNP these days but with a couple of exceptions, most of what's in there tallies with what's common knowledge within Scottish education.

[Ozyhibby]

I work within the City of Edinburgh Council's education department so let's just say opinions of her largely tally with what One Day Soon has to say about her in his post above.

As for her career path, this article saves me typing out its chronology:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/soapbox-the-invisible-woman/

I know the source is notoriously anti-SNP these days but with a couple of exceptions, most of what's in there tallies with what's common knowledge within Scottish education.

And yet there she is, the only education Secretary in the UK who has managed to get a deal to get teachers back to work. Amazing.[emoji122]


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[marinello59]

And yet there she is, the only education Secretary in the UK who has managed to get a deal to get teachers back to work. Amazing.[emoji122]


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I really don’t get why the employer is being praised here. It’s the workers who deserve all the plaudits, they forced the employer in to giving them what they should have been offered in the first place.
Join a Union.

[Rumble de Thump]

I really don’t get why the employer is being praised here. It’s the workers who deserve all the plaudits, they forced the employer in to giving them what they should have been offered in the first place.
Join a Union.

Probably something to do with wanting more money or better working conditions being a lot easier than running a country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I really don’t get why the employer is being praised here. It’s the workers who deserve all the plaudits, they forced the employer in to giving them what they should have been offered in the first place.
Join a Union.

It's nothing more than bartering, if the government had tabled the offer that was excepted at the beginning then that would more than likely have been rejected. Both sides now seem happy with the deal and there's been movement on both sides, that's how successful negotiations work.

[Jack]

Why not praise both unions and employers?

The only point of concern I might have is a very low increase next year has already been agreed.

[Santa Cruz]

It's nothing more than bartering, if the government had tabled the offer that was excepted at the beginning then that would more than likely have been rejected. Both sides now seem happy with the deal and there's been movement on both sides, that's how successful negotiations work.

Very, very slow negotiations which further disrupted kids learning and resulted in workers taking a substancial financial hit with loss of earning on strike days in the midst of a cost of living crisis, a workforce that is critical to economic recovery.

Even the imposed pay deals appear to have been unsuccesful. Afaik civil servants in the SG will walk out next week in support of colleagues working in other departments right across the UK - happy to be corrected if this has changed.

[Hibrandenburg]

Very, very slow negotiations which further disrupted kids learning and resulted in workers taking a substancial financial hit with loss of earning on strike days in the midst of a cost of living crisis, a workforce that is critical to economic recovery.

Even the imposed pay deals appear to have been unsuccesful. Afaik civil servants in the SG will walk out next week in support of colleagues working in other departments right across the UK - happy to be corrected if this has changed.

Having conducted negotiations on behalf of a union, I would not describe these negotiations as particularly slow.

[Santa Cruz]

Having conducted negotiations on behalf of a union, I would not describe these negotiations as particularly slow.

Having a daughter in her last year of school, weeks away from exams, having already missed a fair chunk of education along with hundreds of thousands of others, I would.

[marinello59]

It's nothing more than bartering, if the government had tabled the offer that was excepted at the beginning then that would more than likely have been rejected. Both sides now seem happy with the deal and there's been movement on both sides, that's how successful negotiations work.

Thanks for explaining how negotiation works, that a real eye opener. :greengrin

[He's here!]

I really don’t get why the employer is being praised here. It’s the workers who deserve all the plaudits, they forced the employer in to giving them what they should have been offered in the first place.
Join a Union.

Nobody within the industry is praising the employer I can assure you.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks for explaining how negotiation works, that a real eye opener. :greengrin

I obviously thought you needed it :greengrin

A deal has been reached as opposed to elsewhere, that's good isn't it?

[LewysGot2]

Having a daughter in her last year of school, weeks away from exams, having already missed a fair chunk of education along with hundreds of thousands of others, I would.

Over a year. It really doesn't look like it needed to end up where it did. It took Swinney having to get involved a week back as well.

[McD]

Probably something to do with wanting more money or better working conditions being a lot easier than running a country.


is Somerville running a country?

I doubt she or her team are heavily involved in economic planning, structuring and proposals of laws, or anything else. It’s not Nicola sturgeon who’s been directly involved in the negotiations.

[marinello59]

I obviously thought you needed it :greengrin

A deal has been reached as opposed to elsewhere, that's good isn't it?

It’s excellent a deal has been reached. Hopefully the workers involved in disputes elsewhere get what they deserve soon as well.

I won’t be praising the employer who underpaid the workers for far too long then forced them in to prolonged and disruptive industrial action to get what they deserved. And I will always say that regardless of who the employer is.

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-leadership-candidate-says-careers-29425860

Regan's pledge on 'missing 600k'.

[archie]

I obviously thought you needed it :greengrin

A deal has been reached as opposed to elsewhere, that's good isn't it?

It is, but teachers I know aren't elated, just ground down.

[Stairway 2 7]

And yet there she is, the only education Secretary in the UK who has managed to get a deal to get teachers back to work. Amazing.[emoji122]


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Wales have agreed a deal and its worth more than Scotlands teachers. Although it is still crap and a real time pay cut last year and this year

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-leadership-candidate-says-careers-29425860

Regan's pledge on 'missing 600k'.

What did Yousaf/Murrells have to say on the matter

[Smartie]

I work within the City of Edinburgh Council's education department so let's just say opinions of her largely tally with what One Day Soon has to say about her in his post above.

As for her career path, this article saves me typing out its chronology:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/soapbox-the-invisible-woman/

I know the source is notoriously anti-SNP these days but with a couple of exceptions, most of what's in there tallies with what's common knowledge within Scottish education.

Yeah, your facts seemed somewhat different to mine so I wondered where you might have got yours from. “Hatchet job article in Wings” it was then.

I work in healthcare, fortunately with minimal exposure to the NHS these days but I do know that at any given moment the health secretaries at both Westminster and Holyrood will be reviled by healthcare workers (possibly why I was unlikely to support Yousaf’s leadership bid, possibly unfairly).

Can you name any minister for education at either parliament who was appreciated in the classrooms?

[He's here!]

Yeah, your facts seemed somewhat different to mine so I wondered where you might have got yours from. “Hatchet job article in Wings” it was then.

I work in healthcare, fortunately with minimal exposure to the NHS these days but I do know that at any given moment the health secretaries at both Westminster and Holyrood will be reviled by healthcare workers (possibly why I was unlikely to support Yousaf’s leadership bid, possibly unfairly).

Can you name any minister for education at either parliament who was appreciated in the classrooms?

Yep, that's a fair point. I just feel Somerville has been by some distance the most inept in her role. And that's saying something with Swinney as her predecessor.

As I said, you'll find the content of that article mirrors the opinion of many in the profession.

[LewysGot2]

Yep, that's a fair point. I just feel Somerville has been by some distance the most inept in her role. And that's saying something with Swinney as her predecessor.

As I said, you'll find the content of that article mirrors the opinion of many in the profession.

I think my friends in the sector say it has opened their eyes to the gas lighting, spin and political tactics deployed by this particular Education minister as being right out of the tory play book. She played fast and loose with spin and including things like the automatic increment probation teachers qualifying as fully qualified teachers get for reaching Fully Qualified status in the numbers she gave the media. The leaking of deals to the media before sitting down with the unions to offer them also has mightily pissed them off.

Angela Constance is the last one they recall being so unpopular - she was seen as just incompetent

[Smartie]

Yep, that's a fair point. I just feel Somerville has been by some distance the most inept in her role. And that's saying something with Swinney as her predecessor.

As I said, you'll find the content of that article mirrors the opinion of many in the profession.

This part I wouldn't (couldn't) actually disagree with, and I'd bow to your superior knowledge as someone in the field.

As someone whose daughter starts school in August, I can't pretend not to be a bit concerned about what I hear about education. Scotland has historically been strong on education so it's quite alarming to hear the noises I do these days. In terms of the standard of the physical premises and every person I've encountered at her nursery I must admit I've been very impressed so it's not great to hear disquiet about what might lie further down the line.

My issue was with aspects of certain defeats being humiliating and some inaccuracies regarding posts held.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah, your facts seemed somewhat different to mine so I wondered where you might have got yours from. “Hatchet job article in Wings” it was then.

I work in healthcare, fortunately with minimal exposure to the NHS these days but I do know that at any given moment the health secretaries at both Westminster and Holyrood will be reviled by healthcare workers (possibly why I was unlikely to support Yousaf’s leadership bid, possibly unfairly).

Can you name any minister for education at either parliament who was appreciated in the classrooms?

Estelle Morris was liked by most teachers. She had taught in a comp before politics and had also been a relatively popular junior education minister.

She resigned because she had promised her shadow Tory that if she didn’t hit her literacy and numeracy targets for pupils she would go. IIRC literacy and numeracy levels went up but not enough to meet the target. Matter of principle for her as Blair wanted her to stay. Also she hated the limelight of Cabinet.

Blunkett pissed off the unions but he oversaw the implementation of Sure Start and made a big impact on literacy and numeracy.

[Stairway 2 7]

Sold our renewable assets like we did our oil

The Common Weal
@Common_Weal
·
💨 The January 2022 ScotWind auction massively undervalued Scotland’s offshore energy resources and placed a low and arbitrary maximum ceiling on the amount that competitors could bid for their development.

We need an inquiry to redress this waste

https://archive.ph/n5Izj
AT first, it’s easy to be furious, but there’s too much fury in Scottish politics. Anger is fine, it’s understandable, but more important is cold, calm, implacable scrutiny. And after scrutiny, if blame is apportioned, then there must be consequences.
We’ve just learned that Scotland is expected to lose an estimated £60 billion through mishandling of the much-criticised ScotWind deal, which saw tracts of the seabed leased to investors. If true – and the only means of establishing the truth is through a public inquiry – then SNP negligence has deeply wounded Scotland

[Smartie]

Sold our renewable assets like we did our oil

The Common Weal
@Common_Weal
·
�� The January 2022 ScotWind auction massively undervalued Scotland’s offshore energy resources and placed a low and arbitrary maximum ceiling on the amount that competitors could bid for their development.

We need an inquiry to redress this waste

https://archive.ph/n5Izj
AT first, it’s easy to be furious, but there’s too much fury in Scottish politics. Anger is fine, it’s understandable, but more important is cold, calm, implacable scrutiny. And after scrutiny, if blame is apportioned, then there must be consequences.
We’ve just learned that Scotland is expected to lose an estimated £60 billion through mishandling of the much-criticised ScotWind deal, which saw tracts of the seabed leased to investors. If true – and the only means of establishing the truth is through a public inquiry – then SNP negligence has deeply wounded Scotland

I actually think there could well end up being proper reason to be annoyed at the SNP for this - unlike about 98% of what gets chucked at them.

[Sergio sledge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8amd4lnZiFI&t=3213s

The whole TUG/STUC hustings is worth watching but from 52mins on there are questions about ScotWind and a public renewables company and taking the national grid into public ownership.

The ScotWind deal was a big missed opportunity IMHO.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230313/6a8f6267dd9dfe0dd49b0db55279897d.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/13/uk-government-poised-to-block-scottish-bottle-recycling-scheme

England says no. Again.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://fraserofallander.org/the-deposit-return-scheme-a-window-into-whats-to-come/

More on deposit return scheme.


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