SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Mibbes Aye]

You could almost say that we are "better together"? It's a good job you're not a unionist!

I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrors.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

[grunt]

A high watermark for Labour but just one example of the numerous occasions when Scotland has got the UK government the majority of its voters wanted.
A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

[grunt]

For someone who supposedly supports good natured debate you don't half like an underhand dig. Your posts are littered with them. Try and engage in a politer way if you can manage that. You'll feel better for it.


Do you know what? You are right. I was going to say that because you can't refute my points you've taken it personal, but I won't.

Anyway, I tried in my lengthier post to be polite. I'm still not seeing any engagement with that though. PErhaps you could help?


It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.
Well that didn't last long.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the SG has produced, at times, some very good legislation. Implementation hasn't always been successful, but thats not entirely their fault.

Similarly, Westminster has produced some very good legislation. And some horrows.

It's not a zero sum game for me. Unlike the diehards and blowhards on either side of these frankly stupid dividing lines.

Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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[He's here!]

A shame that the most recent example you can point to is from 26 years ago.

Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.

[Since90+2]

Well that didn't last long.

I noticed that myself but in all honesty it's better not to even react to it.

If posters want to behave in that way then let them, the only way this thread will stay open if the majority of posters can discuss things without throwing insults around.

I'm sure the majority of us are capable of that.

[grunt]

Labour also won 56 seats in Scotland in 2001 and 41 in 2005 and on both occasions formed the UK government.That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.

I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

[Ozyhibby]

I wondered, but that makes even less sense.

Why not say people from socio-ecomonic group x,y and z didn't (or did) get the government they voted for. To my mind there's a lot more commonality there, than defining oneself by the circumstances of history and the accidents of geography. I mean, pragmatically, there is maybe some rationale some of the time - but it doesn't really cut it.

I strongly suspect a fishing community in Peterhead has more in common with a fishing community in Milford Haven than it does with relatively affluent Barrhead - all roughtly the same population. The Saltire comes second to people's liveliohoods and their families.

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Well that didn't last long.

For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals :greengrin

Are we on or off? I can't live like this! :panic:

[grunt]

I'd hazard a guess the poster is talking about getting the government we voted for on a national level, rather than on an individual level.
:agree: Thank you. Thought that would have been obvious.

Oh silly me! It was obvious.

[He's here!]

That's Labour with 1 seat in Scotland in 2023, right? Whatever happened to them?

You stated that Scotland has 'never' got the UK government it voted for. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of examples which show that not to be the case.

[Mibbes Aye]

Diehards and blowhards? Surely we don’t want the board closed again?


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I wasn't really meaning people on here!

Diehard isn't that negative anyway, blowhard - well, we are all guilty of that at times, even me :greengrin

[grunt]

For someone who publicly declared you "weren't engaging with me" you are sending out some decidedly mixed signals :greengrin

Are we on or off? I can't live like this! :panic:It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

[Mibbes Aye]

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's impossible to contribute to this discussion while ignoring your posts. Believe me, I've tried.

So are you agreeing with my earlier post, or is this just a deflection?

You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?

[grunt]

Did they not? I've not seen a breakdown of the Brexit vote to the level of Peterhead and Milford Haven.
Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

[grunt]

You've got nearly eight thousand posts. Was there one in particular?This one.


Well that didn't last long.

[Since90+2]

Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

😂

[Mibbes Aye]

This one.

If you mean the diehards and blowhards comment I replied to Ozyhibby about it. Is that all you are asking about?

[Mibbes Aye]

Milford Haven (part of Pembrokeshire) 57% Leave
Peterhead (part of Aberdeenshire) 45% Leave.

But then I'm not your personal researcher.

I'm relieved.

Line 1: You are quoting the figure for Pembrokeshire, not Milford Haven

Line 2: You are quoting the figure for Aberdeenshire, not Peterhead. Oh, and the University of East Anglia conducted extensive research to map the results by constituency. They found that Banff and Buchan, the constituency in Aberdeenshire that contains Peterhead was very much a majority Leave.

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher Mr Grunt, and we will get back to you shortly. In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the role.

[archie]

Let’s hope the good people of England, Wales and NI vote for mp’s that want a Scottish independence referendum then. That appears to be the democratic route for Scotland. Not sure it would pass many democracy tests but fair play for giving it a go and trying to articulate a democratic process.
Can’t wait to hear Sarwar articulate it that way.[emoji106]


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I think the weakness of the 'democracy tests' point is that very few democracies allow secession. By your test virtually no western democracies would count as democratic. The UK approach in 2014 is held up in academic journals as quite enlightened.

The solution to another referendum is a political one. You can speculate all you like about why, but Salmond was able to secure an excellent deal.

There is also the small matter of the impact of the referendum. These are convulsive events and aren't the easy fixes that are often portrayed here.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sneaky.

Good practice :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

I think the weakness of the 'democracy tests' point is that very few democracies allow secession. By your test virtually no western democracies would count as democratic. The UK approach in 2014 is held up in academic journals as quite enlightened.

The solution to another referendum is a political one. You can speculate all you like about why, but Salmond was able to secure an excellent deal.

There is also the small matter of the impact of the referendum. These are convulsive events and aren't the easy fixes that are often portrayed here.

Very few western democracies are made up of a union of individual nations.
There is a strong majority of Scots who think that the decision on whether we become independent should be made in Scotland. I think people understand a democratic deficit when they see one.


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[Skol]

I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

[archie]

Very few western democracies are made up of a union of individual nations.
There is a strong majority of Scots who think that the decision on whether we become independent should be made in Scotland. I think people understand a democratic deficit when they see one.


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Germany? In any event, the UK is a unitary state.

[degenerated]

I'm saying nothing's changed regarding the democratic process since the last referendum except for the fact it's clear there's not the appetite among voters to have another one no matter how many ways the SNP try to dress it up.Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

[Since90+2]

Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

They think there's a good chance they'd lose this one.

They had their fingers burnt with Brexit and they don't want to take the risk of it happening again.

[degenerated]

They think there's a good chance they'd lose this one.

They had their fingers burnt with Brexit and they don't want to take the risk of it happening again.If polling had suggested anywhere north of 30% supported independence he would have refused a referendum as well.

[marinello59]

I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

That’s a shame. I may not always agree with you but you do respect others opinions and argue your case well. We need more like you. Your contributions will be missed, hope you come back after another wee break.

[Berwickhibby]

I took a conscious decision last weekend to take a break from posting here. I have decided to make that permanent.

I have still been poking in and reading the weeks posts and mostly shaking my head at the nature of the debate. It’s just toxic at times.

I will probably be joining you …after being trolled on the main board yesterday

[He's here!]

They didn’t have much in common when it came to brexit?


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I was working in London at the time of the EU referendum and there were areas there who voted more strongly in favour of remain than in many areas of Scotland. It was also a pretty close-run thing across the south-east and south-west of England. Folk also tend to forget that well over a million voters in Scotland actually voted for Brexit (including a significant chunk of SNP voters).

Similar to a general election the first past the post system will always leave enormous numbers of voters (in England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland) unhappy with the result but for as long as we vote as the UK it's the version of democracy we operate by.

[Jack]

I'm relieved.

Line 1: You are quoting the figure for Pembrokeshire, not Milford Haven

Line 2: You are quoting the figure for Aberdeenshire, not Peterhead. Oh, and the University of East Anglia conducted extensive research to map the results by constituency. They found that Banff and Buchan, the constituency in Aberdeenshire that contains Peterhead was very much a majority Leave.

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher Mr Grunt, and we will get back to you shortly. In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the role.

Aye those Brexit loving fishermen are greeting enough now to sink their boats.

[Just Alf]

I will probably be joining you …after being trolled on the main board yesterdayThat's a shame, I know we don't see eye to eye on the indy thing ( :greengrin ) but it's good to have different opinions on here.

And FWIW I noticed that yesterday and thought they were a bit out of order to go on and on re a simple statement

[weecounty hibby]

It's just not worth it anymore. And I mean this thread. Independence will always be worth fighting for to ensure a better, fairer Scotland. Have fun chaps!!

[grunt]

That’s a shame. I may not always agree with you but you do respect others opinions and argue your case well. We need more like you. Your contributions will be missed, hope you come back after another wee break.
:agree: Agreed.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was seriously interested in how Berwickhibby was being trolled and hoping me disagreeing with him on the match day thread hasn't been interpretated as trolling. Based on that I thought my question was a fair one.

[grunt]

We are seeing a number of applicants for the post of personal researcher ...I'll bet.

[He's here!]

Theres a democratically elected majority in favour of independence, as there was for the 2014 referendum. The government in England allowed us a vote then so what's changed now ?

The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.

[degenerated]

The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.I'm not sure what your point is here?

We have a government formed by 2 parties who had both got elected on the basis of having a referendum, so I'll ask again. What's different?

[He's here!]

I'm not sure what your point is here?

We have a government formed by 2 parties who had both got elected on the basis of having a referendum, so I'll ask again. What's different?

The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.

[weecounty hibby]

The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.
I wanted to stay off this thread but I can't, just can't, let this ***** slip. You support the Tories, you have said that so it's undeniable. Johnson, Truss, Kwarteng etc you supported them, you backed them up, you argued on their defence. But Slater and Harvie...... I've just got a pensions statement through after asking as I want to retire early. 30% down on where it was 3 years ago. Aye, defend that!! I can assure you the UK government do absolutely no favours to scotland

[Ozyhibby]

The coalition needed to cobble together an independence supporting majority is what's different.

The UK government are actually doing Scotland a favour by ensuring those eejits Harvie and Slater don't carry any more clout than they already do.

Ah, benevolent dictatorship. Love it.


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[Moulin Yarns]

It's impossible for the SNP to win a GE. Getting the majority of votes in Scotland isn't 'winning' when the vote is a nationwide one.

Well done! You have spotted the problem!!!!

[J-C]

Through Parliament. I saw someone possted something about Orkney earlier. Exactly the same for them. Through Parliament.

Otherwise what could it be?


And when we attempt to go through parliament (London) we're told it won't be happening, hence why we went to the courts earlier to see what we could do, the courts then said we must get permission from parliament, sort of catch 22 situation is it not.

[J-C]

The SNP have never won a majority since 2011.


TBF the electoral system we have your not really meant to win a majority, it's there to make people and parties work together, prior to the SNP in power we had a coalition of Labour/Liberal.

[Jack]

I wanted to stay off this thread but I can't, just can't, let this ***** slip. You support the Tories, you have said that so it's undeniable. Johnson, Truss, Kwarteng etc you supported them, you backed them up, you argued on their defence. But Slater and Harvie...... I've just got a pensions statement through after asking as I want to retire early. 30% down on where it was 3 years ago. Aye, defend that!! I can assure you the UK government do absolutely no favours to scotland

I said this would happen, on this or probably the tory thread, and was sent away with a flee in my ear saying not to spread fear and alarm. I'm sorry its played out like this for you.

[Hiber-nation]

Scottish Executive is alive and well and living at Victoria Quay down at Ocean Drive, that particular big building you see down there is not the Scottish Government, which resides in the Parliament Building.

The Scottish Executive was renamed The Scottish Government in 2007. The sign above the door says "The Scottish Government" and has done since back then. I should know, I worked in VQ at the time!

[J-C]

The Scottish Executive was renamed The Scottish Government in 2007. The sign above the door says "The Scottish Government" and has done since back then. I should know, I worked in VQ at the time!

Thanks for clarification.

[lapsedhibee]

TBF the electoral system we have your not really meant to win a majority, it's there to make people and parties work together, prior to the SNP in power we had a coalition of Labour/Liberal.

:agree: Shocking how often English MPs get to spout the line about SNP 'failing' to win majorities on air without being challenged on it.

[greenginger]

I started this thread about 16 months ago as a bit of a joke and a counter-balance to the Lying Tory *******s thread and can’t understand how it’s developed into a contest in nastiness between supporters of the various political parties .

We’re all Hibs supporters on here , just some have differing opinions on some of the lesser important things in life :greengrin .

I wish folk would take a chill pill , allow people to post their opinions , counter them if you wish but without the bile and get on with the rest of their day.

[Hiber-nation]

Thanks for clarification.

No problemo, sorry for sounding a bit snippy.

[J-C]

No problemo, sorry for sounding a bit snippy.

Before devolution and the Parliament, that's where it was.

[Mibbes Aye]

And when we attempt to go through parliament (London) we're told it won't be happening, hence why we went to the courts earlier to see what we could do, the courts then said we must get permission from parliament, sort of catch 22 situation is it not.

You’ve used the word ‘we’ four times there but it is important to bear in mind that when it was legally tested in 2014 your ‘we’ was a clear if rather noisy minority.

I suspect a lot of ‘us’ would rather see money spent on hospitals and schools, than on lawyers’ fees for futile court cases.

[Ozyhibby]

You’ve used the word ‘we’ four times there but it is important to bear in mind that when it was legally tested in 2014 your ‘we’ was a clear if rather noisy minority.

I suspect a lot of ‘us’ would rather see money spent on hospitals and schools, than on lawyers’ fees for futile court cases.

It’s 2023.


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[Mibbes Aye]

It’s 2023.


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So we just hit ‘the ‘repeat’ button again and again until you get the result you want?

How about you form a prospectus providing the detail you were told was lacking in 2014.

Or how about you listen to the people, who say in large numbers they don’t want a referendum just now?

[Ozyhibby]

So we just hit ‘the ‘repeat’ button again and again until you get the result you want?

How about you form a prospectus providing the detail you were told was lacking in 2014.

Or how about you listen to the people, who say in large numbers they don’t want a referendum just now?

The people when they were asked, returned a govt who promised a referendum in their manifesto. That was in an actual vote. Democracy. I know it’s going out of fashion but some of us still see the value in it.


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[greenginger]

The people when they were asked, returned a govt who promised a referendum in their manifesto. That was in an actual vote. Democracy. I know it’s going out of fashion but some of us still see the value in it.


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I think it was still a minority of votes for so called Indy parties in last general election but I may be wrong

[He's here!]

TBF the electoral system we have your not really meant to win a majority, it's there to make people and parties work together, prior to the SNP in power we had a coalition of Labour/Liberal.

And when Salmond's minority government SNP first came to power they enjoyed an informal but productive coalition with the Scottish Tories, which enabled him to get key legislation through. It was only after the 2011 Holyrood elections and the granting of a referendum that the SNP put the boot into the working together ethos of the parliament. The ferocity and venom with which Salmond laced his attacks on Labour and the Tories for 'getting into bed together' turned a number of voters off the Yes movement IMHO. Salmond had, prior to then, shown himself to be an experienced, skilled FM but post-2014 Sturgeon simply maintained the 'I hate the Tories' line, almost as a policy, which got her nowhere. The SNP were doing little more than treading water throughout her tenure and have now, invevitably started to stagnate as boredom with their narrative sets in.

Sturgeon herself claimed there would be no second referendum until it was the clear and consistent will of the Scottish people (consistent Yes polling at 60% was the original working hypothesis) but that has simply never come to pass. As a result numerous, increasingly desperate attempts to justify a second poll have been rolled out. Sturgeon launched a new campaign within hours of the Brexit vote, only to get a bloody nose at the next general election, while the clear and consistent majority line has simply been ditched in favour of a grievance-driven 'Scotland in shackles' narrative, including futile court battles and legislation seemingly designed to put the SG on a collision course with Westminster. As others have pointed out, some evidence of competent government might be a more productive way of shifting the dial on independence.

Yes devotees tend to get riled/enraged on here when the perspective of (at least) the other half of the Scottish electorate is put in front of them, but I'm not sure what they expect on a thread which is clearly intended for criticism of the SNP.

[archie]

I started this thread about 16 months ago as a bit of a joke and a counter-balance to the Lying Tory *******s thread and can’t understand how it’s developed into a contest in nastiness between supporters of the various political parties .

We’re all Hibs supporters on here , just some have differing opinions on some of the lesser important things in life :greengrin .

I wish folk would take a chill pill , allow people to post their opinions , counter them if you wish but without the bile and get on with the rest of their day.

I've said before that the titles of the respective threads don't help. I also think that the polarising nature of the constitutional question obscures the fact that most posters here (for and against independence) appear to have broadly similar values. Someone had a pop at me recently for not posting much on the tories thread. I think the inference was that that I must be a tory. The reason is that there don't seem to be many Tories on there defending their case. An endless stream of 'is that no terrible' threads doesn't really do much for me. And similarly on the SNP thread it's very easy to see the back and forth of assertions being made, then countered.

What there isn't is an exploration of ideas. Someone posted yesterday that they would continue to battle for a 'fairer Scotland'. I think it would be really interesting to explore what that meant? Also, the big ideas in politics - for example personal freedom vs collective responsibility never really get debated here. I posted some views on reform of the House of Lords, specifically trying to initiate discussion on what should reform it. There was a vague reference to an elected second chamber, but little thought as to how that might interact with the HoC or the devolved administrations. Now I appreciate that posters might not want that debate as they may feel it's irrelevant to an independent Scotland. Equally, no one is under any obligation to respond to any posts. But it did seem surprising when democracy (or suggestions of lack of it) are a common theme.

[Since90+2]

And when Salmond's minority government SNP first came to power they enjoyed an informal but productive coalition with the Scottish Tories, which enabled him to get key legislation through. It was only after the 2011 Holyrood elections and the granting of a referendum that the SNP put the boot into the working together ethos of the parliament. The ferocity and venom with which Salmond laced his attacks on Labour and the Tories for 'getting into bed together' turned a number of voters off the Yes movement IMHO. Salmond had, prior to then, shown himself to be an experienced, skilled FM but post-2014 Sturgeon simply maintained the 'I hate the Tories' line, almost as a policy, which got her nowhere. The SNP were doing little more than treading water throughout her tenure and have now, invevitably started to stagnate as boredom with their narrative sets in.

Sturgeon herself claimed there would be no second referendum until it was the clear and consistent will of the Scottish people (consistent Yes polling at 60% was the original working hypothesis) but that has simply never come to pass. As a result numerous, increasingly desperate attempts to justify a second poll have been rolled out. Sturgeon launched a new campaign within hours of the Brexit vote, only to get a bloody nose at the next general election, while the clear and consistent majority line has simply been ditched in favour of a grievance-driven 'Scotland in shackles' narrative, including futile court battles and legislation seemingly designed to put the SG on a collision course with Westminster. As others have pointed out, some evidence of competent government might be a more productive way of shifting the dial on independence.

Yes devotees tend to get riled/enraged on here when the perspective of (at least) the other half of the Scottish electorate is put in front of them, but I'm not sure what they expect on a thread which is clearly intended for criticism of the SNP.

If everything you say above is true, then we'll see the SNP take a bit of a hammering at the next election.

My suspicion is you'll be proven to be incorrect.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it was still a minority of votes for so called Indy parties in last general election but I may be wrong

A ba’ hair below on constituency and a ba’ hair above on the list vote. The country is pretty much split 50/50.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The people when they were asked, returned a govt who promised a referendum in their manifesto. That was in an actual vote. Democracy. I know it’s going out of fashion but some of us still see the value in it.


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So square that with a clear majority saying they don’t want a referendum just now and pretty much there never being a majority for leaving the union?

i don’t really follow the polls on this bar what I see on here, but the last one I did see, Redfield and Wilton or whatever, had it at 50-43.

There isn’t a majority there. And there won’t be with the SNP fronting it, I suspect. For a start they can’t even avoid a diary clash between their conference and a AUOB rally.

AUOB said it showed contempt for the grassroots Yes movement. Do you agree with them?

[J-C]

You’ve used the word ‘we’ four times there but it is important to bear in mind that when it was legally tested in 2014 your ‘we’ was a clear if rather noisy minority.

I suspect a lot of ‘us’ would rather see money spent on hospitals and schools, than on lawyers’ fees for futile court cases.

Oh FFS, you know exactly what I mean by we, you're just doing your usual smart are pain in the arse comment to come across as a bit of a know it all.

We obviously means the SG and any voter who wants independence.

[Ozyhibby]

So square that with a clear majority saying they don’t want a referendum just now and pretty much there never being a majority for leaving the union?

i don’t really follow the polls on this bar what I see on here, but the last one I did see, Redfield and Wilton or whatever, had it at 50-43.

There isn’t a majority there. And there won’t be with the SNP fronting it, I suspect. For a start they can’t even avoid a diary clash between their conference and a AUOB rally.

AuOB said it showed contemptformthe grassrotts Yes movement. Do you agree with them?

Are you talking about opinion polls versus votes in an actual election?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Oh FFS, you know exactly what I mean by we, you're just doing your usual smart are pain in the arse comment to come across as a bit of a know it all.

We obviously means the SG and any voter who wants independence.

No need for the first paragraph.

i just wanted to be clear - you have outlined what you think is a flawed process for a minority of voters. Is it possible that because this minority didn’t get their wishes in a fair vote, they now seek to attack the process?

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you talking about opinion polls versus votes in an actual election?


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I will tell you, if you stop ducking my question about AUOB :greengrin

Only joking, I’m sure you have good reasons for not answering........

i dont see it as opinion polls versus votes. All sides use polls when it suits, votes when it suits.

But if we we are talking votes then there has really only been one - the daddy vote, if you like :greengrin

And that went 55-45.

Now if leave was averaging a ten point lead in the polls we would be hearing all about it. But they are not, so we don’t.

[Since90+2]

Why use nationwide elections, with millions of voters resulting in a democratically elected government who stood on the manifesto of another referendum when we can use opinion polls.

I'm sure it makes sense to someone.

[Ozyhibby]

I will tell you, if you stop ducking my question about AUOB :greengrin

Only joking, I’m sure you have good reasons for not answering........

i dont see it as opinion polls versus votes. All sides use polls when it suits, votes when it suits.

But if we we are talking votes then there has really only been one - the daddy vote, if you like :greengrin

And that went 55-45.

Now if leave was averaging a ten point lead in the polls we would be hearing all about it. But they are not, so we don’t.


I will tell you, if you stop ducking my question about AUOB :greengrin

Only joking, I’m sure you have good reasons for not answering........

i dont see it as opinion polls versus votes. All sides use polls when it suits, votes when it suits.

But if we we are talking votes then there has really only been one - the daddy vote, if you like :greengrin

And that went 55-45.

Now if leave was averaging a ten point lead in the polls we would be hearing all about it. But they are not, so we don’t.

A vote to end all votes. Certainly seems to be the plan.


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[J-C]

No need for the first paragraph.

i just wanted to be clear - you have outlined what you think is a flawed process for a minority of voters. Is it possible that because this minority didn’t get their wishes in a fair vote, they now seek to attack the process?


You mean having a referendum as part of our manifesto and then being elected once more as the SG on that manifesto, only to be told by Westminster it doesn't count, that process.

[Mibbes Aye]

Why use nationwide elections, with millions of voters resulting in a democratically elected government who stood on the manifesto of another referendum when we can use opinion polls.

I'm sure it makes sense to someone.

That’s missing the point.

We did have a referendum, you just didn’t like the result.

The SNP manifesto commitment was solely designed to stir up animosity Promise something they had no control over delivering and blame it on a big, bad someone else when it didn’t happen.

It is a classic tactic of nationalists, has been for as long as nationalism has existed.

[Mibbes Aye]

A vote to end all votes. Certainly seems to be the plan.


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You've quoted my post twice. - I assume for emphasis :greengrin

It isn’t anyone’s plan as far as I know. But as I have said before a few times, if I was a Yes strategist (not an SNP one, they do tactics but are incapable of doing strategy), I would look at the landscape and think to myself, there is a clear route here, if Labour win a solid majority in 2024, legislate against the worst of the Tory policies and win a second term.

With the right positioning in Scotland and within the Yes movement, mid-term of a second Labour term is what I would be seeing as the sweet spot, both for securing a referendum and securing the result you want.

But I’m not a Yes strategist, just a Hibs-supporting punter with an opinion.

[Mibbes Aye]

You mean having a referendum as part of our manifesto and then being elected once more as the SG on that manifesto, only to be told by Westminster it doesn't count, that process.

As I said in the post above, the SNP led with something they knew they wouldn’t have the power to deliver. They pulled the wool over your eyes, continue to pull the wool over your eyes.

It is no wonder AUOB accused them of showing contempt for the Yes movement. You should put your support toward AUOB. They seem to have more honesty about them, albeit I have heard and read less about them than the SNP.

[He's here!]

If everything you say above is true, then we'll see the SNP take a bit of a hammering at the next election.

My suspicion is you'll be proven to be incorrect.

The ongoing police investigation may have some bearing, but I don't imagine the SNP will take a hammering. Too many voters are entrenched in their determination to vote for the party of independence no matter what. I think it's likely they'll lose quite a few seats to Labour, but I don't think it will be until the next Holyrood elections where we might see finally see a significant shift in voting patterns once Labour have had a chance to soften the political landscape.

[SickBoy32]

As I said in the post above, the SNP led with something they knew they wouldn’t have the power to deliver. They pulled the wool over your eyes, continue to pull the wool over your eyes.

It is no wonder AUOB accused them of showing contempt for the Yes movement. You should put your support toward AUOB. They seem to have more honesty about them, albeit I have heard and read less about them than the SNP.

The SNP led their manifesto campaign with a vote for us, is a vote for Indy ref 2 - this is a political priority for a significant % of Scotland so made sense.

Do you think it's democratic for the current govt in London to simply disregard the electoral results and refuse? If so, what is the political path to a referendum?

And what timescale needs to have passed since 14' for this to be palatable to the turkeys among us?

Your chat about a second term for Labour, sweet spot etc - before they're even in government, is just pie in the sky stuff. This is the same mob who were happy to betray their socialist history and stand side by side with the Nasty Party in 2014

This is an inherently conservative island (well, England is) - it's fanciful to imagine Labour winning consecutive elections IMO, and even if they do - there has never been one iota of them supporting a Scottish referendum? (I'm talking Labour head office by the way, not local boys brigade leader Sarwar)

[SickBoy32]

The ongoing police investigation may have some bearing, but I don't imagine the SNP will take a hammering. Too many voters are entrenched in their determination to vote for the party of independence no matter what. I think it's likely they'll lose quite a few seats to Labour, but I don't think it will be until the next Holyrood elections where we might see finally see a significant shift in voting patterns once Labour have had a chance to soften the political landscape.

Anyone with an ounce of sense can see right through that sham of a police investigation - smear tactics nothing more

Actually laughable when you consider what the English government has got away with over the last few years!!

[Andy Bee]

The SNP led their manifesto campaign with a vote for us, is a vote for Indy ref 2 - this is a political priority for a significant % of Scotland so made sense.

Do you think it's democratic for the current govt in London to simply disregard the electoral results and refuse? If so, what is the political path to a referendum?

And what timescale needs to have passed since 14' for this to be palatable to the turkeys among us?

Your chat about a second term for Labour, sweet spot etc - before they're even in government, is just pie in the sky stuff. This is the same mob who were happy to betray their socialist history and stand side by side with the Nasty Party in 2014

This is an inherently conservative island (well, England is) - it's fanciful to imagine Labour winning consecutive elections IMO, and even if they do - there has never been one iota of them supporting a Scottish referendum? (I'm talking Labour head office by the way, not local boys brigade leader Sarwar)https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmer-stands-by-claim-snp-would-have-mandate-for-indyref2-if-they-win-holyrood-elections-12079692

[He's here!]

Anyone with an ounce of sense can see right through that sham of a police investigation - smear tactics nothing more

Actually laughable when you consider what the English government has got away with over the last few years!!

Police Scotland are conducting a smear campaign against the SNP? Yep, sounds likely.

[degenerated]

The Scottish Executive was renamed The Scottish Government in 2007. The sign above the door says "The Scottish Government" and has done since back then. I should know, I worked in VQ at the time!Don't worry, changing it back will be one of the first things Sarwar does if he ever fullfils his ambition to be mayor of Scotland.

[degenerated]

The SNP led their manifesto campaign with a vote for us, is a vote for Indy ref 2 - this is a political priority for a significant % of Scotland so made sense.

Do you think it's democratic for the current govt in London to simply disregard the electoral results and refuse? If so, what is the political path to a referendum?

And what timescale needs to have passed since 14' for this to be palatable to the turkeys among us?

Your chat about a second term for Labour, sweet spot etc - before they're even in government, is just pie in the sky stuff. This is the same mob who were happy to betray their socialist history and stand side by side with the Nasty Party in 2014

This is an inherently conservative island (well, England is) - it's fanciful to imagine Labour winning consecutive elections IMO, and even if they do - there has never been one iota of them supporting a Scottish referendum? (I'm talking Labour head office by the way, not local boys brigade leader Sarwar)The unionist parties told us that a vote for the SNP was a vote for a referendum26951

[superfurryhibby]

Police Scotland are conducting a smear campaign against the SNP? Yep, sounds likely.

Of course not because the Police in the UK have never had a history of every shade of corruption or ever been part of politically inspired machinations designed to destroy what is perceived as threatening to the establishment.

[Since90+2]

The unionist parties told us that a vote for the SNP was a vote for a referendum26951

No we need opinion polls now apparently.

They want to see consistent evidence they'll lose and then they'll allow a referendum.

Or something like that.

[Mibbes Aye]

The SNP led their manifesto campaign with a vote for us, is a vote for Indy ref 2 - this is a political priority for a significant % of Scotland so made sense.

Do you think it's democratic for the current govt in London to simply disregard the electoral results and refuse? If so, what is the political path to a referendum?

And what timescale needs to have passed since 14' for this to be palatable to the turkeys among us?

Your chat about a second term for Labour, sweet spot etc - before they're even in government, is just pie in the sky stuff. This is the same mob who were happy to betray their socialist history and stand side by side with the Nasty Party in 2014

This is an inherently conservative island (well, England is) - it's fanciful to imagine Labour winning consecutive elections IMO, and even if they do - there has never been one iota of them supporting a Scottish referendum? (I'm talking Labour head office by the way, not local boys brigade leader Sarwar)

Leading your manifesto with something you know you won’t deliver is just conning the voters isn’t it?

The rest of your post is a bit difficult to follow - ‘turkeys’ and ‘pie in the sky’ and the ‘local boy’s brigade’? Really?

As for it being fanciful to imagine Labour winning a consecutive election - the last two Labour leaders to win an election won another four between them after that. So it’s not that fanciful is it?

And as for Labour betraying their “socialist history” that is just being silly. Nationalism and socialism are categorically different. Proper old-fashioned socialism would reject nationalism as a construct devised to subjugate the working classes by diverting their focus from their own exploitation to the perceived threat from an ‘other’. There is nothing progressive to see in the politics of nationalism, just grievance and division.

And as for your last paragraph, Labour has been the only party to actually bring something to the table. Devolution and now Gordon Brown’s constitutional review. Incidentally which of the review’s recommendations did you disagree with and why?

[Mibbes Aye]

Of course not because the Police in the UK have never had a history of every shade of corruption or ever been part of politically inspired machinations designed to destroy what is perceived as threatening to the establishment.

Which, to my mind, makes a case for not centralising the police and instead making it more locally accountable.

[Mon Dieu4]

And as for your last paragraph, Labour has been the only party to actually bring something to the table. Devolution and now Gordon Brown’s constitutional review. Incidentally which of the review’s recommendations did you disagree with and why?

You mean Gordon Browns the vow 2.0? Maybe some folk are once bitten twice shy on it all

[Ozyhibby]

Police Scotland are conducting a smear campaign against the SNP? Yep, sounds likely.

It’s the NCA that are running the investigation with Police Scotland.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Anyone with an ounce of sense can see right through that sham of a police investigation - smear tactics nothing more

Actually laughable when you consider what the English government has got away with over the last few years!!

England doesn’t have a government. It has local government and some devolved regional administrations but no parliament or government.

[Since90+2]

England doesn’t have a government. It has local government and some devolved regional administrations but no parliament or government.

I wonder why England doesn't need a separate government.

[Ozyhibby]

Leading your manifesto with something you know you won’t deliver is just conning the voters isn’t it?

The rest of your post is a bit difficult to follow - ‘turkeys’ and ‘pie in the sky’ and the ‘local boy’s brigade’? Really?

As for it being fanciful to imagine Labour winning a consecutive election - the last two Labour leaders to win an election won another four between them after that. So it’s not that fanciful is it?

And as for Labour betraying their “socialist history” that is just being silly. Nationalism and socialism are categorically different. Proper old-fashioned socialism would reject nationalism as a construct devised to subjugate the working classes by diverting their focus from their own exploitation to the perceived threat from an ‘other’. There is nothing progressive to see in the politics of nationalism, just grievance and division.

And as for your last paragraph, Labour has been the only party to actually bring something to the table. Devolution and now Gordon Brown’s constitutional review. Incidentally which of the review’s recommendations did you disagree with and why?

I thought you said the vow had been delivered?


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[Mibbes Aye]

You mean Gordon Browns the vow 2.0? Maybe some folk are once bitten twice shy on it all

So you are saying people haven’t read the constitutional review. That Labour would Look to be implementing.

I don’t necessarily agree with every element or every detail of it, bu the way. But I did take the time to read it before commenting on it.

[Mibbes Aye]

I wonder why England doesn't need a separate government.

Maybe you should do some research and propose something for discussion. Lots of people on here with a keen interest in the U.K. constitutional settlement.

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s the NCA that are running the investigation with Police Scotland.


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That is not true though is it?

Police Scotland asked the NCA to peer review their progress. Common practice in investigative work, also in things like scientific research.

Why would you make something like that up?

[Mon Dieu4]

So you are saying people haven’t read the constitutional review. That Labour would Look to be implementing.

I don’t necessarily agree with every element or every detail of it, bu the way. But I did take the time to read it before commenting on it.

Not necessarily that people haven't read it but maybe they don't believe it will ever happen, they have form for it

[Since90+2]

Maybe you should do some research and propose something for discussion. Lots of people on here with a keen interest in the U.K. constitutional settlement.

Believe it or not, I have a life that means coming up with a proposal for UK constitutional issues wouldn't be something I'd be keen to do.

You seem to spend half your waking hours on here though, so I'm sure you'd be pretty keen to come up with something.

[Mibbes Aye]

Not necessarily that people haven't read it but maybe they don't believe it will ever happen, they have form for it

If people don’t or can’t read it that’s fine. But it means their view on it is going to be taken less seriously.

[Mibbes Aye]

I thought you said the vow had been delivered?


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Did I?

The vow itself was so broad and woolly it would have been impossible not to meet :greengrin

As for the Smith Commission and the powers and all that, I know that SPICe commissioned a report which claimed that Scotland would have the most extensive devolved powers of just about anywhere on the planet, or something like that, maybe it was Europe, but then we are Western Europe I guess that counts.

The debate seemed to be about the Scotland Bill and IIRC whether the spirit as well as the letter of the law would be met. I think that would be a never-ending merry-go-round of pointless arguing though.

[Mibbes Aye]

Believe it or not, I have a life that means coming up with a proposal for UK constitutional issues wouldn't be something I'd be keen to do.

You seem to spend half your waking hours on here though, so I'm sure you'd be pretty keen to come up with something.

I did, a while back. Some people liked it, some people thought it wouldn’t work. It was a while back, would need revised. Didn’t take that long but it got some good discussion going.

But if you are dipping into personal digs about the amount of time posters spend on here I’m going to guess you’ve ran out of constructive things to say.

[He's here!]

Of course not because the Police in the UK have never had a history of every shade of corruption or ever been part of politically inspired machinations designed to destroy what is perceived as threatening to the establishment.

The Scottish Government IS the establishment in Scotland, responsible for the creation of Police Scotland - a fully devolved body.

[Ozyhibby]

Did I?

The vow itself was so broad and woolly it would have been impossible not to meet :greengrin

As for the Smith Commission and the powers and all that, I know that SPICe commissioned a report which claimed that Scotland would have the most extensive devolved powers of just about anywhere on the planet, or something like that, maybe it was Europe, but then we are Western Europe I guess that counts.

The debate seemed to be about the Scotland Bill and IIRC whether the spirit as well as the letter of the law would be met. I think that would be a never-ending merry-go-round of pointless arguing though.

If there was anything delivered at all then it wasn’t delivered by Labour. Your frequent claim that only Labour has delivered any sort of devolution doesn’t really tie in with the vow.
Labour does have a decent record on devolution although now appears to be happy to stand by silently while it is rolled back and powers are returned to London.
You keep mentioning GB’s review, are you confident it will be implemented? And do you think it’s a game changer?


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[Since90+2]

I did, a while back. Some people liked it, some people thought it wouldn’t work. It was a while back, would need revised. Didn’t take that long but it got some good discussion going.

But if you are dipping into personal digs about the amount of time posters spend on here I’m going to guess you’ve ran out of constructive things to say.

It wasn't a dig at all, you spend a lot of time on political threads so it's clearly something you spend a lot of time thinking about.

I don't, hence why I wouldn't invest my time in coming up with ideas on political issues. I spend my time doing other things, I'm currently training for an ultra marathon for example.

If that post hurt your feelings then I apologise. Perhaps if you were less confrontational you'd have a happier time on here.

[Mibbes Aye]

It wasn't a dig at all.......

If that post hurt your feelings then I apologise. Perhaps if you were less confrontational you'd have a happier time on here.

:tee hee:

[Mibbes Aye]

If there was anything delivered at all then it wasn’t delivered by Labour. Your frequent claim that only Labour has delivered any sort of devolution doesn’t really tie in with the vow.
Labour does have a decent record on devolution although now appears to be happy to stand by silently while it is rolled back and powers are returned to London.
You keep mentioning GB’s review, are you confident it will be implemented? And do you think it’s a game changer?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I will answer your question.

You are avoiding mine though.

Were AUOB right to say the SNP treated them with contempt?

Were you mistaken to say the NCA were running the investigation into La Sturgeon?

As for the constitutional review, I hope it will be implemented in full and I think it can be. Some aspects of it will go to a referendum though, so I guess we have to allow for that pesky old democracy thing.

Will it be a game changer? It has the potential. But that is only partly the responsibility of those who design it. It has also got to be about those who implement it - whether they have the imagination and the passion to make things better.

[Ozyhibby]

I will answer your question.

You are avoiding mine though.

Were AUOB right to say the SNP treated them with contempt?

Were you mistaken to say the NCA were running the investigation into La Sturgeon?

As for the constitutional review, I hope it will be implemented in full and I think it can be. Some aspects of it will go to a referendum though, so I guess we have to allow for that pesky old democracy thing.

Will it be a game changer? It has the potential. But that is only partly the responsibility of those who design it. It has also got to be about those who implement it - whether they have the imagination and the passion to make things better.

I think none of it will end up being implemented. I’m not even convinced it makes it to the Labour manifesto. I thinks it’s totally half baked. The lack of detail tell you how serious they are about it.
As for AUOB, I’ve no idea. I don’t follow them, have no idea what the allegation is. I have never been on one of their marches and don’t really pay them any attention. They want to set up their own organisation but keep coming back to the SNP for validation? They want to be outside party politics but keep asking the SNP to acknowledge them? It’s just weird imo. Up there with calls for citizens assemblies all the time. That’s what parliament is.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I think none of it will end up being implemented. I’m not even convinced it makes it to the Labour manifesto. I thinks it’s totally half baked. The lack of detail tell you how serious they are about it.

I think you misunderstand how public policy comes about. If it is done genuinely and properly, from a rights-based approach, it is a 'doing with' rhther than a 'doing to' process.

That means starting with an agenda, an identified need to do something, to change something and a sense of where it is you want to end up. A common approach is to start by defining these two stages. Then identifying the final-but-one stage. Then going back to the start and working out what all the steps inbeween, to implementation are.

So, to that extent, there is a need to identify where we are now and articulate where we want to be. The actual detail of gretting there comes from consultation and engagement, debate and discussion, albeit in a disciplined fashion to ensure things actually get done.




for AUOB, I’ve no idea. I don’t follow them, have no idea what the allegation is. I have never been on one of their marches and don’t really pay them any attention. They want to set up their own organisation but keep coming back to the SNP for validation? They want to be outside party politics but keep asking the SNP to acknowledge them? It’s just weird imo. Up there with calls for citizens assemblies all the time. That’s what parliament is.


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You should know what the allegation is, it's been talked about on here a fair bit :greengrin

So you are down on AUOB. Do you think therefore that winning the independence debate can only be done by the SNP?

[Ozyhibby]

I think you misunderstand how public policy comes about. If it is done genuinely and properly, from a rights-based approach, it is a 'doing with' rhther than a 'doing to' process.

That means starting with an agenda, an identified need to do something, to change something and a sense of where it is you want to end up. A common approach is to start by defining these two stages. Then identifying the final-but-one stage. Then going back to the start and working out what all the steps inbeween, to implementation are.

So, to that extent, there is a need to identify where we are now and articulate where we want to be. The actual detail of gretting there comes from consultation and engagement, debate and discussion, albeit in a disciplined fashion to ensure things actually get done.





You should know what the allegation is, it's been talked about on here a fair bit :greengrin

So you are down on AUOB. Do you think therefore that winning the independence debate can only be done by the SNP?

Not so much down on them as all political movements that say they are not political. Everything is political. And when you go around saying you are outside the mainstream political system then why complain when the mainstream political parties don’t work with you? It’s just weird.
It’s the same with Alba. They say they want to form their own party but constantly ask the SNP to work with them. And at the same time snipe at the SNP? Weird.


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[Jack]

I think you misunderstand how public policy comes about. If it is done genuinely and properly, from a rights-based approach, it is a 'doing with' rhther than a 'doing to' process.

That means starting with an agenda, an identified need to do something, to change something and a sense of where it is you want to end up. A common approach is to start by defining these two stages. Then identifying the final-but-one stage. Then going back to the start and working out what all the steps inbeween, to implementation are.

So, to that extent, there is a need to identify where we are now and articulate where we want to be. The actual detail of gretting there comes from consultation and engagement, debate and discussion, albeit in a disciplined fashion to ensure things actually get done.





You should know what the allegation is, it's been talked about on here a fair bit :greengrin

So you are down on AUOB. Do you think therefore that winning the independence debate can only be done by the SNP?

Labour didn't do much consultation the last time they were in power in Scotland - unless they did it in England! Labour policies were imposed on Scotland.

[superfurryhibby]

Which, to my mind, makes a case for not centralising the police and instead making it more locally accountable.

Police Scotland was an error, no doubt about it.

I do wonder why a fraud investigation needs forensic tents outside the home of someone in the public eye though, or why it's taking so long and no one has been charged with any offence? I appreciate that having to have the MET review your work must take time, but surely this is dragging on so long that surely it's fair to question what Police Scotland are actually doing?

I should add that I'm no fan of the SNP, but I'm even less keen on our Police engaging in politically motivated investigations that seemingly drag on forever.

[Just Alf]

Police Scotland was an error, no doubt about it.

I do wonder why a fraud investigation needs forensic tents outside the home of someone in the public eye though, or why it's taking so long and no one has been charged with any offence? I appreciate that having to have the MET review your work must take time, but surely this is dragging on so long that surely it's fair to question what Police Scotland are actually doing?

I should add that I'm no fan of the SNP, but I'm even less keen on our Police engaging in politically motivated investigations that seemingly drag on forever.An ex policeman told me the tent was because she was in the public eye. Stuff would be brought out and checked, put back or packed and loaded into a van for later investigation and it offers Sturgeon some privacy in that all her belongings wouldn't be getting filmed by the cameras sitting there 24/7.

Seemed make sense I guess :dunno:

[superfurryhibby]

An ex policeman told me the tent was because she was in the public eye. Stuff would be brought out and checked, put back or packed and loaded into a van for later investigation and it offers Sturgeon some privacy in that all her belongings wouldn't be getting filmed by the cameras sitting there 24/7.

Seemed make sense I guess :dunno:

Not to me. They can surely use a camera in her home or take the "evidence " away with them?

"
An SNP MP who previously worked as a police officer has claimed it was highly unusual for a tent to be erected outside Nicola Sturgeon’s home when her husband was arrested as part of a fraud probe into the party’s finances.

Allan Dorans, who spent 15 years in the Metropolitan Police and rose to the level of detective inspector before entering politics, said he “never knew” of any occasions where a structure was assembled outside the home of a suspect accused of fraud.

His comments come just days after James Dornan, an SNP MSP, claimed that there appeared to have been “collusion” between the police and media in an attempt to maximise coverage of the arrest. Party leader Humsa rejected the suggestion"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sturgeon-arrest-tent-home-glasgow-b2358788.html

[He's here!]

It wasn't a dig at all, you spend a lot of time on political threads so it's clearly something you spend a lot of time thinking about.

I don't, hence why I wouldn't invest my time in coming up with ideas on political issues. I spend my time doing other things, I'm currently training for an ultra marathon for example.

If that post hurt your feelings then I apologise. Perhaps if you were less confrontational you'd have a happier time on here.

I'd hazard a guess that he's perfectly happy on here :wink:

[He's here!]

An ex policeman told me the tent was because she was in the public eye. Stuff would be brought out and checked, put back or packed and loaded into a van for later investigation and it offers Sturgeon some privacy in that all her belongings wouldn't be getting filmed by the cameras sitting there 24/7.

Seemed make sense I guess :dunno:

As you say, the tent was used to cover the van and presumably offered a degree of privacy/confidentiality on both sides. I'm not aware there has been an PM or FM in history prior to Sturgeon whose home has been raided by police so to claim the scale of the operation was OTT doesn't really hold water when there's nothing to compare it with.

[Kato]

As you say, the tent was used to cover the van and presumably offered a degree of privacy/confidentiality on both sides. I'm not aware there has been an PM or FM in history prior to Sturgeon whose home has been raided by police so to claim the scale of the operation was OTT doesn't really hold water when there's nothing to compare it with.Are there fraud cases where items are brought out into the garden without a tent?

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[Mibbes Aye]

Labour didn't do much consultation the last time they were in power in Scotland - unless they did it in England! Labour policies were imposed on Scotland.

The point in question was about the detail needing to be worked out after there was agreement in a policy or change. You are taking it in a different direction.

What policies did you feel were under-consulted on? I think Lanour’s track record on representation is strong. They introduced the HumN Rights Act and the Equalities Act.

Or did you mean Scotland, where a whole raft of legislation relating to social care, incapacity, and ASP were brought in after extensive engagement with advocacy groups and people with lived experience?

[Mibbes Aye]

Police Scotland was an error, no doubt about it.

I do wonder why a fraud investigation needs forensic tents outside the home of someone in the public eye though, or why it's taking so long and no one has been charged with any offence? I appreciate that having to have the MET review your work must take time, but surely this is dragging on so long that surely it's fair to question what Police Scotland are actually doing?

I should add that I'm no fan of the SNP, but I'm even less keen on our Police engaging in politically motivated investigations that seemingly drag on forever.

My fear is they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

Carry out an exhaustive investigation that establishes no criminality - accused of stretching it out to damage the SNP.

Carry out an exhaustive investigation and charge - accused of being determined to find something, find anything, to damage the SNP

Dont carry out an exhaustive investigation and don’t charge - accused of sweeping it under the carpet

And so on.

At the end of the day the police would have NFAed it after initial investigation if there wasn’t something that needed to be properly scrutinised. And they wouldn’t have had it peer reviewed if they weren’t conscious that this was a snake pit of an investigation one way or the other.

[Jack]

The point in question was about the detail needing to be worked out after there was agreement in a policy or change. You are taking it in a different direction.

What policies did you feel were under-consulted on? I think Lanour’s track record on representation is strong. They introduced the HumN Rights Act and the Equalities Act.

Or did you mean Scotland, where a whole raft of legislation relating to social care, incapacity, and ASP were brought in after extensive engagement with advocacy groups and people with lived experience?

I was talking about in Scotland. Labour at Westminster decided a policy and it was enforced on Scotland. Much head shaking when I worked in health as quite a few policies weren't really suited to Scotlands needs.

I've told before about the limit of Labours Scottish policies were pretty much limited to Scotifying or Tartanising English legislation, a sole destroying copy and paste job.

[LewysGot2]

Mhairi Black standing down as MP...

[Mibbes Aye]

I was talking about in Scotland. Labour at Westminster decided a policy and it was enforced on Scotland. Much head shaking when I worked in health as quite a few policies weren't really suited to Scotlands needs.

I've told before about the limit of Labours Scottish policies were pretty much limited to Scotifying or Tartanising English legislation, a sole destroying copy and paste job.

That’s not really answering my point.

the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000, the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 and the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Act 2007 were all introduced by Scottish Labour and were generally regarded as more progressive than English legislation, or indeed paved the way for change in England.

The Community Care And Health (Scotland) Act 2002 dealt with carer issues, which was something carer groups had been lobbying for and it dealt with resource transfer, which everybody wanted firmer guidance on. It also introduced free personal care in Scotland.

What U.K. Labour health policy was ’enforced’ on Scotland, specifically? Especially given that it would require legislative endorsement in Scotland, as a devolved matter?

[Mibbes Aye]

Mhairi Black standing down as MP...

Option 1: Genuinely tired of the political bubble - she has said so frequently and to be honest, has looked absolutely done in with it, in recent times

Option 2: Manoeuvring for when Humza vacates the leaderships at Holyrood (note the use of ‘when’ not ‘if’)

Option 3: Doesn’t fancy her chances of keeping her seat at the GE.

Option 4: Any combination of the above

[Rumble de Thump]

Mhairi is one of the most competent and ethical politicians we've had in the UK in recent years. And she has particularly been a stark contrast to the Conservative politicians. With the behaviour of the Tories I'm not surprised good people don't want to endure working in Westminster anymore. What the Tories have done to the UK and our politics is unforgivable.

[He's here!]

Mhairi is one of the most competent and ethical politicians we've had in the UK in recent years. And she has particularly been a stark contrast to the Conservative politicians. With the behaviour of the Tories I'm not surprised good people don't want to endure working in Westminster anymore. What the Tories have done to the UK and our politics is unforgivable.

She had a good relationship with Jacob Rees Mogg tho, unlikely as that seems.

[Ozyhibby]

Option 1: Genuinely tired of the political bubble - she has said so frequently and to be honest, has looked absolutely done in with it, in recent times

Option 2: Manoeuvring for when Humza vacates the leaderships at Holyrood (note the use of ‘when’ not ‘if’)

Option 3: Doesn’t fancy her chances of keeping her seat at the GE.

Option 4: Any combination of the above

I doubt it’s option 3. She has made that a fairly safe seat and I expect her replacement to still win it.


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[Smartie]

My fear is they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

Carry out an exhaustive investigation that establishes no criminality - accused of stretching it out to damage the SNP.

Carry out an exhaustive investigation and charge - accused of being determined to find something, find anything, to damage the SNP

Dont carry out an exhaustive investigation and don’t charge - accused of sweeping it under the carpet

And so on.

At the end of the day the police would have NFAed it after initial investigation if there wasn’t something that needed to be properly scrutinised. And they wouldn’t have had it peer reviewed if they weren’t conscious that this was a snake pit of an investigation one way or the other.

As much as I would love to get on board with the victimhood narrative…

It’s worth remembering that this whole issue has arisen from problems between the SNP and independence supporters within their own realm. Police Scotland were apparently reluctant to get too involved initially, and I’d be surprised if anyone could make any sort of credible claim that Police Scotland should be afflicted by institutional anti SNP bias.

I’d be amazed if any charges are brought and I suspect there has probably been some clumsy, non-criminal management of finances that the SNP are going to need to learn from. But no more than that.

It’s given unionists some ammunition to go with a “if they can’t control their finances then how can we expect them to control an independent nation” narrative that will appeal to themselves and win over absolutely none of their opposition, such are our current entrenched positions. The only positive they can claim is that it may have contributed to Sturgeon’s departure - she was occasionally competent, popular to an extent and a sturdy adversary.

I agree that the police are in a no win situation.

But as a supporter of independence, rather than point fingers everywhere I simply feel more like we’ve brought this upon ourselves.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1676257241530347526?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

New survation polling in Scotland.


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[Since90+2]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1676257241530347526?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

New survation polling in Scotland.


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Forget polls. We need elections, oh wait...

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1676257241530347526?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

New survation polling in Scotland.


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Interesting to see where it goes as the two elections come closer.

Reading down, I see they have Starmer leading as ‘best PM’ in Blue Wall seats. Starting to look like the centre ground is defining itself around him, rather than anyone else defining the centre ground.

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting to see where it goes as the two elections come closer.

Reading down, I see they have Starmer leading as ‘best PM’ in Blue Wall seats. Starting to look like the centre ground is defining itself around him, rather than anyone else defining the centre ground.

We could still be 18 months away. I’m beginning to think Sunak won’t make it that far though. The Tories seem to hate him.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I doubt it’s option 3. She has made that a fairly safe seat and I expect her replacement to still win it.


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Im not so sure. Swept to victory in a surge in 2015, pulled right back in 2017, fenefitted from a big swing in 2019.

The thing with parties that have been in power for a long time (and I know she is an MP not an MSP) is that a 10K majority sometimes isn’t enough.

i certainly think Option 1 has played a part. She often expresses her frustration and dissatisfaction at how being an MP at Westminster works, and she was of course very young to be thrust into that role.

I don’t know enough about her to know whether Option 2 is realistic. I couldn’t really tell you her position on social policy or economic policy. That’s not necessarily a bad thing for her at this stage though.

[Mibbes Aye]

We could still be 18 months away. I’m beginning to think Sunak won’t make it that far though. The Tories seem to hate him.


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I nearly said something along those lines in my post. I understand his liaison committee session today was a bit of a disaster for him.

I know a lot of people find PMQs a bit silly, or outdated or boring. It often is IMO too. But one thing Starmer has pursued dogmatically since Sunak came into office has been speaking to the Tories behind him, reminding them that Sunak is failing them on all their totems like tax cuts and small boats.

It has been long-game stuff but it has helped erode his backbench support and exposed one of his vulnerabilities - he doesn’t have a natural caucus to support him.

[Ozyhibby]

Im not so sure. Swept to victory in a surge in 2015, pulled right back in 2017, fenefitted from a big swing in 2019.

The thing with parties that have been in power for a long time (and I know she is an MP not an MSP) is that a 10K majority sometimes isn’t enough.

i certainly think Option 1 has played a part. She often expresses her frustration and dissatisfaction at how being an MP at Westminster works, and she was of course very young to be thrust into that role.

I don’t know enough about her to know whether Option 2 is realistic. I couldn’t really tell you her position on social policy or economic policy. That’s not necessarily a bad thing for her at this stage though.

I doubt she sees herself as a leader yet, she’s still very young. And the job is likely to come up before she gets much older, if those polls hold until a GE. I personally don’t think they will but I’ve been wrong before.


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[Ozyhibby]

Im not so sure. Swept to victory in a surge in 2015, pulled right back in 2017, fenefitted from a big swing in 2019.

The thing with parties that have been in power for a long time (and I know she is an MP not an MSP) is that a 10K majority sometimes isn’t enough.

i certainly think Option 1 has played a part. She often expresses her frustration and dissatisfaction at how being an MP at Westminster works, and she was of course very young to be thrust into that role.

I don’t know enough about her to know whether Option 2 is realistic. I couldn’t really tell you her position on social policy or economic policy. That’s not necessarily a bad thing for her at this stage though.

She’s on today’s Newsagents explaining the reasons. Not listened yet but will do so tomorrow.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000619274958


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[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mhairi-black-blames-toxic-culture-for-decision-to-quit-as-mp-dk8dhzklb

[McD]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mhairi-black-blames-toxic-culture-for-decision-to-quit-as-mp-dk8dhzklb


cant read it because of the paywall

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1676582799657119746?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Great news.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/tommysheppard/status/1676553900952809472?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Great line from Black today. She’ll be missed.


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[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1676582799657119746?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Great news.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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It is? A member suspended after making allegations of bullying against the chief whip and reports of a pretty heated confrontation. What on earth has happened to what until recently was the most disciplined political party you are ever likely to see. It’s fallout after fall out these days.

[JimBHibees]

Are there fraud cases where items are brought out into the garden without a tent?

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Pretty much all of them would assume

[Ozyhibby]

It is? A member suspended after making allegations of bullying against the chief whip and reports of a pretty heated confrontation. What on earth has happened to what until recently was the most disciplined political party you are ever likely to see. It’s fallout after fall out these days.

Party discipline is important and McNeil is a serial offender. If it wasn’t for the fact Alba can’t win seats, he’d have defected long ago.
I doubt he’s on the ballot at the next election now anyway. He’ll likely jump ship soon.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Party discipline is important and McNeil is a serial offender. If it wasn’t for the fact Alba can’t win seats, he’d have defected long ago.
I doubt he’s on the ballot at the next election now anyway. He’ll likely jump ship soon.


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According to STV, it went down like this


He is said to have shouted that O’Hara was a “small wee man” before throwing letters on the floor.

STV did not clarify whether the letters were the kind you put in the post, or the bright ones with magnets you put on a fridge :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

According to STV, it went down like this



STV did not clarify whether the letters werethe kind you put in the post, or the bright ones with magnets you put on a fridge :greengrin

Should have been dealt with by Blackford long ago. Flynn needs to make it permanent now.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Should have been dealt with by Blackford long ago. Flynn needs to make it permanent now.


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Well yes, suspending the whip for a week is lmost worse than doing nothing at all.

[Ozyhibby]

Well yes, suspending the whip for a week is lmost worse than doing nothing at all.

Bought himself thinking time. No probs with that.


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[Moulin Yarns]

According to STV, it went down like this



STV did not clarify whether the letters were the kind you put in the post, or the bright ones with magnets you put on a fridge :greengrin


Scrabble 😂

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1676582799657119746?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Great news.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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Aka the implosion continues...

[Ozyhibby]

Aka the implosion continues...

Is that what’s happening in Labour and the Tories? All three parties seem to be dealing with factions just now, no?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Scrabble 😂

Now, if he managed to land those Fs and Ks on a triple-letter.......

[Mibbes Aye]

Is that what’s happening in Labour and the Tories? All three parties seem to be dealing with factions just now, no?


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Labour isn't 'dealing' with factions.

It is purging innocent life-long supporter, behaving ruthlessly and being autocratic.

Or something like that.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuU26KMtyez/?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==

A heartwarming story about a friend of mine who received revolutionary treatment on the NHS in Scotland which wasn't available in England.


Thank you snhs

[Stairway 2 7]

Poor in the East Kilbride by election. Big swing from snp to Labour, snp down to third. Only one council by election, but that's a few in a row. I can see Westminster by elections going to Labour. Snp need a swing back very quickly if they don't want a big swing to Labour in the GE. Humza doing more of the same when he took over a party in free fall just won't get that imo.

https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1677086341182439425

[He's here!]

Poor in the East Kilbride by election. Big swing from snp to Labour, snp down to third. Only one council by election, but that's a few in a row. I can see Westminster by elections going to Labour. Snp need a swing back very quickly if they don't want a big swing to Labour in the GE. Humza doing more of the same when he took over a party in free fall just won't get that imo.

https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1677086341182439425

To not even finish second must be a bit worrying for them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66136659?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=A082259A-1CCF-11EE-8BA0-FC533AE5AB7B&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow

Scottish junior doctors have called off strike action. Great news. We’ll done the SNP.


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[Jack]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66136659?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=A082259A-1CCF-11EE-8BA0-FC533AE5AB7B&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow

Scottish junior doctors have called off strike action. Great news. We’ll done the SNP.


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Unionists will be having seizures!

[archie]

Unionists will be having seizures!

Why? It's good news isn't it?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why? It's good news isn't it?

For scottish junior doctors, yes for junior doctors in England, not so much.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66136659?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=A082259A-1CCF-11EE-8BA0-FC533AE5AB7B&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow

Scottish junior doctors have called off strike action. Great news. We’ll done the SNP.


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Seems a good deal. Its good to see unions still have teeth

[archie]

For scottish junior doctors, yes for junior doctors in England, not so much.

Let's hope they find the deal offered acceptable.

[Stairway 2 7]

Let's hope they find the deal offered acceptable.

Actually seeing that it's 17.5% over two years they might not. A pay cut last year and a pay cut this, they really need a rise above inflation after 12 years of cuts. Better than the worst government in decades down south though I suppose

[Ozyhibby]

Actually seeing that it's 17.5% over two years they might not. A pay cut last year and a pay cut this, they really need a rise above inflation after 12 years of cuts. Better than the worst government in decades down south though I suppose

Unfortunately it’s that govt down south who determine the budget. Let hope it’s accepted though because we need the NHS working over the next few years while we catch up on pandemic backlogs.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Unfortunately it’s that govt down south who determine the budget. Let hope it’s accepted though because we need the NHS working over the next few years while we catch up on pandemic backlogs.


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They don't decide the budget. The same thing was said when snp was offering half of this where is the money coming from. A Scottish government gets a budget to spend. You priorities from important to less and some stuff drop off unfortunately. Paying nhs staff should be near the top.

Yes it would be better with independence, but it's not a get out of jail card either

[Ozyhibby]

They don't decide the budget. The same thing was said when snp was offering half of this where is the money coming from. A Scottish government gets a budget to spend. You priorities from important to less and some stuff drop off unfortunately. Paying nhs staff should be near the top.

Yes it would be better with independence, but it's not a get out of jail card either

I agree. Glad they’ve made it happen.


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[greenginger]

For scottish junior doctors, yes for junior doctors in England, not so much.

With the extra tax that’s paid in Scotland, how much more does the Scottish doctors pay have to be to be the same as an English doctor’s nett earnings ?

[Moulin Yarns]

With the extra tax that’s paid in Scotland, how much more does the Scottish doctors pay have to be to be the same as an English doctor’s nett earnings ?

That's obviously a negative number as ALL nhs staff in Scotland earn substantially more than their equivalent in England. But good try 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Let's hope they find the deal offered acceptable.

You mean more acceptable than the 5% on offer in England.

[Stairway 2 7]

You mean more acceptable than the 5% on offer in England.

Yes both are relative wage cuts, it's how much a cut they will find acceptable, they wanted a rise

[archie]

You mean more acceptable than the 5% on offer in England.

Sorry, what's England got to do with it?

[Just Alf]

With the extra tax that’s paid in Scotland, how much more does the Scottish doctors pay have to be to be the same as an English doctor’s nett earnings ?
Sorry, what's England got to do with it?This I guess

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry, what's England got to do with it?

Everything is relative. 17.5% v 5%

[archie]

Everything is relative. 17.5% v 5%

But why are you comparing to England?

[Ozyhibby]

But why are you comparing to England?


But why are you comparing to England?

Haven’t you read the drugs thread? Comparisons with England are a constant in Scottish politics.


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[Just Alf]

Haven’t you read the drugs thread? Comparisons with England are a constant in Scottish politics.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThis thread too... unless you're being selective :dunno:


Edit: "you're " as in generally... not YOU specifically :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Everything is relative. 17.5% v 5%

It's 17.5 over 2 years, so 8.75. A cut both years, after they have dropped 26% in real terms in 12 years. Still a world away from Englands derisory offers defo

[Just Alf]

It's 17.5 over 2 years, so 8.75. A cut both years, after they have dropped 26% in real terms in 12 years. Still a world away from Englands derisory offers defoI think we all agree on that ?

[archie]

Haven’t you read the drugs thread? Comparisons with England are a constant in Scottish politics.


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That doesn't make it a good thing. It's not relevant to me if the NHS waiting time is two weeks longer in Manchester.

[Just Alf]

That doesn't make it a good thing. It's not relevant to me if the NHS waiting time is two weeks longer in Manchester.Glad you agree with the majority of us on here regardless of if they want independence or not :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

That doesn't make it a good thing. It's not relevant to me if the NHS waiting time is two weeks longer in Manchester.

And yet.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1677358166982500355?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Glory Lurker]

And yet.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1677358166982500355?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Brutal, brutal, brutal. I can't believe the neck of the Tories trying to make an issue of it all. They don't give a monkey's about the issues that encourage problem drug use.

[archie]

And yet.

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1677358166982500355?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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I don't see the relationship to what I posted.

[Mibbes Aye]

Haven’t you read the drugs thread? Comparisons with England are a constant in my posts


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FTFY :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

FTFY :greengrin

[emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

[emoji23]


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https://y.yarn.co/d1bbaece-913c-4984-a584-f56c7a58395f_text.gif

:greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

In fairness we shouldn't compare with England as it is to all intents and independent nation. We can't really compare with anywhere. And as the devolved government is just the UK government in Scottish form, does it really matter?

[Ozyhibby]

https://y.yarn.co/d1bbaece-913c-4984-a584-f56c7a58395f_text.gif

:greengrin

Not really. I love England. It’s a great place but more importantly, having spent 10 years in Oz, most of my mates are English(sounds weird). They’re a great lot.


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[Hibrandenburg]

That doesn't make it a good thing. It's not relevant to me if the NHS waiting time is two weeks longer in Manchester.

How is it not relevant. Two systems that have the same origins, were the same system for decades and one is almost fully dependent on how much the other gets funded. Of course comparisons will be made.

[archie]

How is it not relevant. Two systems that have the same origins, were the same system for decades and one is almost fully dependent on how much the other gets funded. Of course comparisons will be made.

It's not relevant to me if I'm waiting for care.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not relevant to me if I'm waiting for care.

Well here’s hoping your in Scotland.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure what thread but it's Glasgow Council.

3000 old cars fined in Glasgows LEZ in first month
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65935598?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_medium=social&at_link_id=0DC1E95C-1CED-11EE-8CE7-9399FF7C7F44&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

[Glory Lurker]

Not sure what thread but it's Glasgow Council.

3000 old cars fined in Glasgows LEZ in first month
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65935598?at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_medium=social&at_link_id=0DC1E95C-1CED-11EE-8CE7-9399FF7C7F44&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews

Good. Money that might be put to good causes.

[archie]

Well here’s hoping your in Scotland.[emoji106]


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This is where tribalism corrodes normal politics.

[Moulin Yarns]

But why are you comparing to England?

The pay offer in Scotland is significantly more than is being offered to junior doctors in England. That's why the strike has been called off north of the border but is going ahead in England.

[archie]

The pay offer in Scotland is significantly more than is being offered to junior doctors in England. That's why the strike has been called off north of the border but is going ahead in England.

I know that. But why are you obsessing on England.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not relevant to me if I'm waiting for care.

How is overall performance not relevant if you're waiting for care? Especially if where you're waiting is mostly dependant on somewhere else.

[WeeRussell]

It's not relevant to me if I'm waiting for care.

I could have swore you are normally willing to comment on things that don’t necessarily affect you personally, Archie.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know that. But why are you obsessing on England.

Because Scotland's financing of the NHS is dependent on England's.

[archie]

How is overall performance not relevant if you're waiting for care? Especially if where you're waiting is mostly dependant on somewhere else.

Because politicos use it to deflect from issues affecting people in Scotland. If a waiting list is longer in England that makes no difference to my waiting time here.

[archie]

Because Scotland's financing of the NHS is dependent on England's.

To a point - block grant expenditure decisions are made here.

[archie]

I could have swore you are normally willing to comment on things that don’t necessarily affect you personally, Archie.

I'm not sure I understand your point?

[Glory Lurker]

The Scottish Government is the devolution of the UK state. If it's failing, the UK is failing.

[Ozyhibby]

Because politicos use it to deflect from issues affecting people in Scotland. If a waiting list is longer in England that makes no difference to my waiting time here.

Yes, I bet if waiting times were shorter in England we would never hear about it.[emoji23]


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[Hibrandenburg]

To a point - block grant expenditure decisions are made here.

Yes, we get to decide within limits what we do with our pocket money. But there's more to running the NHS than money and we don't have the levers to control those things.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes, we get to decide within limits what we do with our pocket money. But there's more to running the NHS than money and we don't have the levers to control those things.

Scot gov budget covers the majority of the finance we use in Scotland. Also income tax alone covers about 35% of GDP. We also get about 20% per head of population to spend than England. To downplay it and say its pennies is a good tactic as it takes away responsibility but its silly imo.

Yes we should have all the budget but we don't just now simple as. We get a large part of the budget to sort ourselves. If a party says we're unable to work this budget then they should move over and let someone else do it. Yes it's unfair ect ect but it is what it is in the meantime

[Hibrandenburg]

Scot gov budget covers the majority of the finance we use in Scotland. Also income tax alone covers about 35% of GDP. We also get about 20% per head of population to spend than England. To downplay it and say its pennies is a good tactic as it takes away responsibility but its silly imo.

Yes we should have all the budget but we don't just now simple as. We get a large part of the budget to sort ourselves. If a party says we're unable to work this budget then they should move over and let someone else do it. Yes it's unfair ect ect but it is what it is in the meantime

Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.

[archie]

Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.

Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

[Hibrandenburg]

Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

And yet we can't fill the training vacancies on offer. What's the point in creating more training vacancies if we don't have the people willing to take them?

[Moulin Yarns]

Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

Talking of deflection. An article from 5 and a half years ago 😂😂😂


Here is more recent info for you

https://www.gov.scot/news/nhs-workforce-at-new-record-high/

[Stairway 2 7]

Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.

We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

[Since90+2]

We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

[archie]

Talking of deflection. An article from 5 and a half years ago 😂😂😂

So you think it's funny that training places were slashed and now we have staff shortages? By definition cutting training places has impacts years later. It's an example of where the Scottish Government has powers and took decisions that have made things worse.

[archie]

Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

Or don't cut the training places for medical staff.

[Stairway 2 7]

Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

15% of nhs staff are foreign and that number is getting larger in the last 10 years, the growth has been from India, Philippines and Nigeria mostly. We don't pay enough to entice EU nationals.

The immigrants aren't expected to come trained we are the ones that train them. Scottish and UK government cut funding for training and we're getting the fruits now. The numbers increased steadily when Labour was in power then it was slashed under the tories. We have the immigrants obviously 100ks from Ukraine alone, what we need is the funding to train

[Hibrandenburg]

Or don't cut the training places for medical staff.

Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

[archie]

Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

So are you saying that places were cut because of lack of interest?

[Just Alf]

Imagine if the Scot Gov didn't adjust training capacities to suit the expected volume of trainees.

I can see the Daily Mail headline!

SNP waste money on empty classrooms!

[Stairway 2 7]

Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

Net immigration of 600k to the uk last year so the rules are pro immigration, the question is how to get them to choose Scotland

[archie]

Imagine if the Scot Gov didn't adjust training capacities to suit the expected volume of trainees.

I can see the Daily Mail headline!

SNP waste money on empty classrooms!
Except the RCN kicked off about it at the time.

[Stairway 2 7]

Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

With immigration growing each year I'm sure a good job like that would be snapped up. Immigration is only going to go one way fortunately due to the upcoming agreement with India. Nursing jobs would go in seconds if advertised there

[Hibrandenburg]

Net immigration of 600k to the uk last year so the rules are pro immigration, the question is how to get them to choose Scotland

There are various reasons as to why immigrants prefer to settle in England as opposed to Scotland, the only way to change that would be for Scotland to be able to create its own immigration policy.

It costs about £12,000 per employee to recruit internationally, whereas before someone from Germany, Poland or Spain could have simply applied for the job if interested.

[Stairway 2 7]

There are various reasons as to why immigrants prefer to settle in England as opposed to Scotland, the only way to change that would be for Scotland to be able to create its own immigration policy.

It costs about £12,000 per employee to recruit internationally, whereas before someone from Germany, Poland or Spain could have simply applied for the job if interested.

The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

[archie]

Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

Again, this is not a no consequence option. The WHO rials against the first world strip mining the rest of the world for staff. I appreciate there is a balance between individual rights and societal benefits, but I'm sure you would acknowledge the issue? https://www.who.int/news/item/14-03-2023-who-renews-alert-on-safeguards-for-health-worker-recruitment

[Hibrandenburg]

The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

Like you say, family is probably the main reason most UK immigrants stay in England, however climate, stereotypical prejudice, language (don't laugh) and infrastructure all play a role. Scotland needs an immigration programme trimmed to its needs, UK wide policy isn't working for Scotland. Scotland is much more attractive to European people than it is to those from further afield, that's why Brexit has had a disproportionate effect on our public and private services.

[grunt]

Because politicos use it to deflect from issues affecting people in Scotland. If a waiting list is longer in England that makes no difference to my waiting time here.
One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

[archie]

One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

Would you care to explain this?

[archie]

One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

As I've not had the benefit of any illumination about my 'dumbness' I'll have a go at responding. I think 'grunt' is conflating macro and micro indicators and responses. At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations. This will be in the public sector and business. Politicians use this all the time when the indicators are favourable.

At a micro level, by which I mean here individual level, I struggle to see how someone waiting an extended time for treatment is somehow comforted or aided by knowing that someone elsewhere is waiting longer. But as 'grunt' opines, this is a dumb view.

OK, off now to listen to some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj9oHikgY&ab_channel=amajor2002

[Just Alf]

As I've not had the benefit of any illumination about my 'dumbness' I'll have a go at responding. I think 'grunt' is conflating macro and micro indicators and responses. At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations. This will be in the public sector and business. Politicians use this all the time when the indicators are favourable.

At a micro level, by which I mean here individual level, I struggle to see how someone waiting an extended time for treatment is somehow comforted or aided by knowing that someone elsewhere is waiting longer. But as 'grunt' opines, this is a dumb view.

OK, off now to listen to some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj9oHikgY&ab_channel=amajor2002"At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations"

Which is what was being discussed/compared ?

I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb :agree:

But (lol) ... I do think it's either a deflection or just being contrary to move the discussion onto the micro level to avoid having to acknowledge that in some measures one government is currently performing better than the other.

At an individual level I'll guarantee there will be unacceptable situations/waits in all 4 nations at one point or another.

Enjoy yer sounds :-)

[grunt]

I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb :agree:
I didn't call anyone dumb.

[archie]

"At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations"

Which is what was being discussed/compared ?

I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb :agree:

But (lol) ... I do think it's either a deflection or just being contrary to move the discussion onto the micro level to avoid having to acknowledge that in some measures one government is currently performing better than the other.

At an individual level I'll guarantee there will be unacceptable situations/waits in all 4 nations at one point or another.

Enjoy yer sounds :-)

I was making a point about the use of generalised numbers to address individual issues, as was happening on the thread. At least I think that's what I was doing.

[Just Alf]

I was making a point about the use of generalised numbers to address individual issues, as was happening on the thread. At least I think that's what I was doing.Ah , fair doo's


I'm off to watch a film

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

[archie]

Ah , fair doo's


I'm off to watch a film

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

Which is which?

[Just Alf]

Which is which?Ha ha... we are one :greengrin

[Kato]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj9oHikgY&ab_channel=amajor2002

Tune

[greenginger]

The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.

[archie]

Tune

Sure is!

[Moulin Yarns]

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.

I think that's probably the last thing on their minds.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think that's probably the last thing on their minds.

Indeed. Many were from Hong Kong and Ukraine fleeing oppression, but what if in the future Scotland goes independent and is still safe and wealthy..

[Hibrandenburg]

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.

Aye, I imagine that's what's holding them back.

[Since90+2]

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.

😂

[WeeRussell]

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.

….

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/half-scots-think-humza-yousaf-30424270

Only 23 per cent of Scottish voters think Yousaf is doing a good job, according to latest polling.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/half-scots-think-humza-yousaf-30424270

Only 23 per cent of Scottish voters think Yousaf is doing a good job, according to latest polling.

What were the numbers for Sarwar and Ross?


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[He's here!]

What were the numbers for Sarwar and Ross?


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Polling looks to be focused on Yousaf/Sunak. For Yousaf to be only a point ahead of a Tory PM in favourability among Scottish voters must be rather embarrassing for him. Tho to cut him slack, as the article points out, he was bequeathed an almighty mess by his predecessor.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/beith123/status/1678148884038656001?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[grunt]

https://twitter.com/beith123/status/1678148884038656001?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A



What's to reconcile? The earlier post was just an observation that we have views among posters on here ranging from the BBC being Tory sympathisers to being hated by the Tories.

The link I posted simply answers the questions being posed earlier in the thread re whether there is any potential illegality in the alleged behaviour of the presenter.

The posts are unrelated in their subject matter.Nothing to see here.

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/lPsrBQis5vU

Flynn getting better and better all the time.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-government-publishes-plans-for-steep-council-tax-hike-on-quarter-of-households

Seems like a sensible move?


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[grunt]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-government-publishes-plans-for-steep-council-tax-hike-on-quarter-of-households

Seems like a sensible move?
Almost £400 more a year for me. ****

[lapsedhibee]

Almost £400 more a year for me. ****

Would it be accurate, then, to say that it has struck terror in your heart? :dunno:

[Jones28]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-government-publishes-plans-for-steep-council-tax-hike-on-quarter-of-households

Seems like a sensible move?


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Another kick in the teeth for young families on middle incomes. Like me.

[grunt]

Would it be accurate, then, to say that it has struck terror in your heart? :dunno:
Er, no.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lauraalderman_/status/1679055092626931712?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

More good news. Yousaf appears to be quietly setting about solving problems.


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[Ozyhibby]

Another kick in the teeth for young families on middle incomes. Like me.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/520d118d0d82dd3199ead534c601bf48.png

It’s not nice having to pay more but the SNP have done more than any other party to reduce council tax.


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[Hibbyradge]

Er, no.

Whoosh 😉