SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Moulin Yarns]

And Queen Margaret used to have an A & E ..what’s your point

Not for 13 years!! Still has minor injuries service

[Berwickhibby]

Not for 13 years!! Still has minor injuries service

Wow!! fantastic!! a minor injuries unit instead of the full A & E it used to have… Well Done

[ronaldo7]

I suspect you don't know what the recovery plan says, let alone what stage its actions are at. The ink is barely dry on any remedial work.

I'll stick with evidence rather than blind faith.

No idea what the plan says. As I said though, I hope they're working on it, as I'm sure they are.

You'll be along to tell me differently if they're not.

[Jack]

wow!! Fantastic!! A minor injuries unit instead of the full a & e it used to have… well done fife hb

ftfy 😉

[xyz23jc]

They sort of are though. The SG enacted legislation in 2016 which compelled health boards to develop a scheme of integration with the, or any, councils that were located within the health board geography. Wise heads counselled that it mustn't just be structural reform, that path had been taken before and it ended in folly. But what happened?

Much structural reform, much upheavel, much cost all to pursue 'better outcomes' despite solid research evidence that structural reform does not lead to better outcomes by itself, working culture, processes and practices need addressed as well as the in-built hierarchies you get in health systems and between health and social care.

Five years later, it then gets unceremoniously dumped as the SG decides that a National Care Service, supporting Community Health and Social Care Boards is the way to go, the silver bullet, the panacea. With more upheaval and cost and uncertainty all in the post (or in the courier van, to keep it modern!).

It would be depressing and borderline absurd if it wasn't for the fact that this affects everybdy's lives, everybody's wellbeing. And none more so than the weak, the ill and the vulnerable.

Whataboutery mibbes, x10 doon sooth amigo..! Desafortunadamente..!:confused::thumbsup::greengri n:wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

No idea what the plan says. As I said though, I hope they're working on it, as I'm sure they are.

You'll be along to tell me differently if they're not.

I really won't. I only posted today because I found Shona Aitken's open letter to her party leader compelling. It chimes with stuff I've posted on here before about SG forcing councils to do what SG wants. Now, don't get me wrong - there's nothing new about that, other parties in power have done similar.

This time the twist is that we have an SNP council leader accusing her own party of 'denying democracy'.

And 'denying dempcracy' has been the relentless line from Sturgeon and her ministers against Westminster, repeated as they go round the country and appear on the media, stirring up apathy on the S35 order.

It is just difficult to see how sloganeering against one thing while doing it yourself is anything other than double standards? Or even just rank, venal hypocrisy?

[ronaldo7]

I really won't. I only posted today because I found Shona Aitken's open letter to her party leader compelling. It chimes with stuff I've posted on here before about SG forcing councils to do what SG wants. Now, don't get me wrong - there's nothing new about that, other parties in power have done similar.

This time the twist is that we have an SNP council leader accusing her own party of 'denying democracy'.

And 'denying dempcracy' has been the relentless line from Sturgeon and her ministers against Westminster, repeated as they go round the country and appear on the media, stirring up apathy on the S35 order.

It is just difficult to see how sloganeering against one thing while doing it yourself is anything other than double standards? Or even just rank, venal hypocrisy?

Council leader standing up for her council shocker, whilst national government give ring fenced money to achieve targets on attainment amongst other things.

Your democracy denying is tenuous, to say the least, or are we not voting in council elections any time soon.

[Moulin Yarns]

For what it's worth, the £330million gap in Glasgow’s budget is due to the council having to settle the equal pay dispute that was historic under labour.

[marinello59]

For what it's worth, the £330million gap in Glasgow’s budget is due to the council having to settle the equal pay dispute that was historic under labour.

So far

It’s Westminster’s fault.
It’s the Councils fault.
It’s a long gone Labour administration’s fault.
Petrie on standby for a name check here. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

So far

It’s Westminster’s fault.
It’s the Councils fault.
It’s a long gone Labour administration’s fault.
Petrie on standby for a name check here. :greengrin

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgows-770m-equal-pay-deal-25734705.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

Fergus Ewing goes in heavy on scot gov over A9 dualling in a thread

https://mobile.twitter.com/FergusEwingSNP/status/1623678764684128256

@FergusEwingSNP
Snp msp
Yesterday’s news of scrapping the Tomatin to Moy contract and re-tendering has created anger in the Highlands on a scale I have never seen in three decades in politics. (1)

I am appalled that the Scottish Government & its agency Transport Scotland has failed to make any significant progress over the past four years in going ahead with the other sections which are now ready to be tendered & that the Tomatin to Moy section was left with only 1 bidder

It is obvious that there must now be a parliamentary inquiry into the handling of this and that Transport Scotland, Ministers and Government top officials must be called to explain why there has been such a lamentable performance

There is an opportunity to hold an Inquiry quickly, because of the Petition lodged by Laura Hansler calling for dualling of the A9. This will come before the Petitions committee on which I serve

I will, when it comes before us in the next few weeks, call for a Parliamentary Inquiry by a committee of the Scottish Parliament. I believe there is substantial support for such an inquiry across parties

Questions on this must be answered and the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland must be held to account

[marinello59]

Fergus Ewing goes in heavy on scot gov over A9 dualling in a thread

https://mobile.twitter.com/FergusEwingSNP/status/1623678764684128256

@FergusEwingSNP
Snp msp
Yesterday’s news of scrapping the Tomatin to Moy contract and re-tendering has created anger in the Highlands on a scale I have never seen in three decades in politics. (1)

I am appalled that the Scottish Government & its agency Transport Scotland has failed to make any significant progress over the past four years in going ahead with the other sections which are now ready to be tendered & that the Tomatin to Moy section was left with only 1 bidder

It is obvious that there must now be a parliamentary inquiry into the handling of this and that Transport Scotland, Ministers and Government top officials must be called to explain why there has been such a lamentable performance

There is an opportunity to hold an Inquiry quickly, because of the Petition lodged by Laura Hansler calling for dualling of the A9. This will come before the Petitions committee on which I serve

I will, when it comes before us in the next few weeks, call for a Parliamentary Inquiry by a committee of the Scottish Parliament. I believe there is substantial support for such an inquiry across parties

Questions on this must be answered and the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland must be held to account

I listened to him being interviewed yesterday and he was not accepting the offered excuses at all.

[James310]

I listened to him being interviewed yesterday and he was not accepting the offered excuses at all.

One of the excuses was the war in Ukraine.

[Stairway 2 7]

Fergus Ewing at it again attacking the drinks return scheme that everyone is saying won't be near ready

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrblairbowman/status/1623675672945205251

[James310]

Fergus Ewing at it again attacking the drinks return scheme that everyone is saying won't be near ready

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrblairbowman/status/1623675672945205251

It's another one of these grand announcements that is not backed up by the competency to deliver it.

Seems like Lorna Slater is not listening though.

https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1618153483475222529?t=vzv8F5JufH_bgcKf7ScPaw&s=19

[Hiber-nation]

Fergus Ewing at it again attacking the drinks return scheme that everyone is saying won't be near ready

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrblairbowman/status/1623675672945205251

Nasty piece of work. Not exactly in Raab's league as a bully but still a horrible person.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can't remember what thread this was discussed on 😀

BBC News - Ban on Edinburgh lap dancing clubs overturned after judicial review
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64596835

[He's here!]

It's another one of these grand announcements that is not backed up by the competency to deliver it.

Seems like Lorna Slater is not listening though.

https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1618153483475222529?t=vzv8F5JufH_bgcKf7ScPaw&s=19

That's the problem if you put someone like Slater in charge of something, especially something as complex as as this. She's glaikit.

Already delayed by (at least) two years, it's shaping up to be another bungled initiative for Sturgeon to face up to.

[grunt]

That's the problem if you put someone like Slater in charge of something, especially something as complex as as this. She's glaikit. She's autistic.

[Stairway 2 7]

She's autistic.

The two things are separate, many autistic certainly aren't glaikit. She clearly seems incompetent in this instance. Everyone at all connected is telling her to drop glass but she's sticking. Roadside works really well, I'm actually fine with it for plastic if handled well

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/tax-and-benefits-system-more-progressive-in-scotland-than-rest-of-uk-12806087


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SteveHFC]

Can't remember what thread this was discussed on 😀

BBC News - Ban on Edinburgh lap dancing clubs overturned after judicial review
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64596835

Edinburgh Council acting illegally on the ban.

[James310]

:confused:

How has having his phone hacked won your admiration.? :greengrin

For some reason Craig Murray has his emails.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/02/i-have-stewart-mcdonalds-emails/

[Berwickhibby]

Craig Murray and the Rev Stu…always thought they were a pair of carpet baggers …. Nothing has changed

[He's here!]

She's autistic.

I know.

[grunt]

I know.This just makes your insult worse.

[Hiber-nation]

Craig Murray and the Rev Stu…always thought they were a pair of carpet baggers …. Nothing has changed

No sensible Indy supporter would give that pair the time of day.

[Stairway 2 7]

No sensible Indy supporter would give that pair the time of day.

I barely no who he is I remember him getting bother about releasing details of uk mistreatment of Iraqis. But if he releases the emails I'll read them for the bants.

The thought that Russian spy experts used an old fashioned phishing email is hilariously daft.

[Just Alf]

A quick read.of.the article... not.gonna publish anything personal about his "love life" ... petty veiled threat right there... or his constituency etc but will on NATO etc.... oh.. and by the way the fact the hack was by Russians is wide of the mark.... but no info on why..

Hmmmmmm......

[Mibbes Aye]

Council leader standing up for her council shocker, whilst national government give ring fenced money to achieve targets on attainment amongst other things.

Your democracy denying is tenuous, to say the least, or are we not voting in council elections any time soon.

It wasn't me saying it, it was the SNP leader of Glasgow City Council. I'm merely calling it out for what it is. Which is hypocrisy on Sturgeon and SG's part.

[Just Alf]

I barely no who he is I remember him getting bother about releasing details of uk mistreatment of Iraqis. But if he releases the emails I'll read them for the bants.

The thought that Russian spy experts used an old fashioned phishing email is hilariously daft.These are the same folks that used the same bit of metal in pictures showing various missiles fired at Russian positions to show we were directly involved in the action .

Donkey to get scammed.mind, although to be fair.. its the guy in the office that was the weak link from the reporting I saw?

[Mibbes Aye]

For what it's worth, the £330million gap in Glasgow’s budget is due to the council having to settle the equal pay dispute that was historic under labour.

That's incorrect. Glasgow funded the equal pay settlement through a sale and leaseback arrangement on some of its buildings.

[Stairway 2 7]

These are the same folks that used the same bit of metal in pictures showing various missiles fired at Russian positions to show we were directly involved in the action .

Donkey to get scammed.mind, although to be fair.. its the guy in the office that was the weak link from the reporting I saw?

The Russian government hackers have been able to get into national defence systems this year, if they set up a scam that said click this email then put in your password then fair play for outside the box thinking.

He's more than a donkey he's incompetent for failing for a scam my mum wouldn't.

[Berwickhibby]

No sensible Indy supporter would give that pair the time of day.

I am not an Indy Supporter but those pair were revered not that long ago by Indy supporters

[Lendo]

Can't remember what thread this was discussed on ��

BBC News - Ban on Edinburgh lap dancing clubs overturned after judicial review
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64596835

Not sure why this is under the SNP thread. It was a licensing board decision brought forward by Lib Dem Councillor and was supported by two Labour and two Conservative councillors.

The SNP and Green councillors on the licencing board were the only two who opposed and the only two who offered alternatives.

Edit: I was wrong. It was a motion by Conservative Councillor Cameron Rose that set the number of venues to 0.

SNP councillor Catherine Fullerton recommended restricting to four

Apologise to the one Lib Dem voters we probably have in here.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure why this is under the SNP thread. It was a licensing board decision brought forward by Lib Dem Councillor Lewis Younie and was supported by two Labour and two Conservative councillors.

The SNP and Green councillors on the licencing board were the only two who opposed and the only two who offered alternatives.

Like I say, I couldn't remember what thread it was discussed on before. I also posted it on the Labour thread, so they can have the GIRUY :greengrin

As an aside, why isn't there a thread slagging the LibDems? :cb

[James310]

I am not an Indy Supporter but those pair were revered not that long ago by Indy supporters

Murray stood for SNP President and got a third of the votes.

[Glory Lurker]

Like I say, I couldn't remember what thread it was discussed on before. I also posted it on the Labour thread, so they can have the GIRUY :greengrin

As an aside, why isn't there a thread slagging the LibDems? :cb


My post count would go through the roof if we had one of them!

[Lendo]

Like I say, I couldn't remember what thread it was discussed on before. I also posted it on the Labour thread, so they can have the GIRUY :greengrin

As an aside, why isn't there a thread slagging the LibDems? :cb

Just for clarity, I named a councillor but it turns out that’s the wrong one. My bad. Lewis Younie might not be anti-stripper after all.

Trying to find the Regulatory Committee meeting minutes to get it right just now.

[ronaldo7]

It wasn't me saying it, it was the SNP leader of Glasgow City Council. I'm merely calling it out for what it is. Which is hypocrisy on Sturgeon and SG's part.

Rubbish.

You've already conceded that ring fencing has already been custom and practice since the parliament was reformed, with other parties having done it.

The democracy denying was the failure of both the UK Gov and the labour party to respect the mandates given by the people in Scotland. Sir keir, and the Tories have decided we're not getting a referendum any time soon, as they've decreed.

The S35, put into the Scotland act by the labour party, which "wouldn't be used", is another reflection of London rulers lording it over the Scottish Parliament.

[Lendo]

Not sure why this is under the SNP thread. It was a licensing board decision brought forward by Lib Dem Councillor and was supported by two Labour and two Conservative councillors.

The SNP and Green councillors on the licencing board were the only two who opposed and the only two who offered alternatives.

Edit: I was wrong. It was a motion by Conservative Councillor Cameron Rose that set the number of venues to 0.

SNP councillor Catherine Fullerton recommended restricting to four

Apologise to the one Lib Dem voters we probably have in here.

An amendment above. I was wrong.

[CropleyWasGod]

An amendment above. I was wrong.

:aok:

It's sorted now, which IMO is the main thing.

[Hiber-nation]

I am not an Indy Supporter but those pair were revered not that long ago by Indy supporters

Not by me that's for sure!!

[Mibbes Aye]

Rubbish.

You've already conceded that ring fencing has already been custom and practice since the parliament was reformed, with other parties having done it.

The democracy denying was the failure of both the UK Gov and the labour party to respect the mandates given by the people in Scotland. Sir keir, and the Tories have decided we're not getting a referendum any time soon, as they've decreed.

The S35, put into the Scotland act by the labour party, which "wouldn't be used", is another reflection of London rulers lording it over the Scottish Parliament.

We don't want a referendum any time soon, I think the opinion polls consistently show that.

Shona Aitken has made a serious point about democracy and accountablity. if you disagree with her, then that's beyween you and her. If you agree with her then you can't deny the hypocrisy of Sturgeon talking about democracy and mandates, when she and her ministers are doing exactly the same to local authorities.

[Just Alf]

The Russian government hackers have been able to get into national defence systems this year, if they set up a scam that said click this email then put in your password then fair play for outside the box thinking.

He's more than a donkey he's incompetent for failing for a scam my mum wouldn't.He clicked a link sent to him from someone in the office... I totally agree with the premise of what you're saying,it's just it's pointed the wrong direction?

[Glory Lurker]

What will come of this will come of this,but I wonder what Murray made of the phone tapping scandals

Oh, and I'm not suggesting that this comes near the worst instances of that.

[CropleyWasGod]

The police are involved in the McDonald story. Would the emails come under the "receiving stolen property" laws?

[He's here!]

This just makes your insult worse.

In what way? A key part of my job is working with autistic kids and it's not something I treat lightly. The sheer breadth of the spectrum can be an eye opener, with some requiring pretty much constant one-to-one support while others integrate all but seamlessly with their class. It certainly does not preclude intelligence. Slater is one of many adults who only sought a diagnosis as grown-ups and I've heard her talk about how it answered a lot of questions. I'm glad from that point of view that her life has been made more manageable as a result. As a politician though I think she comes across as glaikit, alarming even, with some of her policy proposals - most notably encouraging kids to take puberty blockers.

[Just Alf]

Not by me that's for sure!!For honesty's sake (we're not politicians after all!) I used to link to the Rev, not for his own actual take on stuff but he often linked to actual data and 'normal' people's opinions which were worth reading. .

[Stairway 2 7]

He clicked a link sent to him from someone in the office... I totally agree with the premise of what you're saying,it's just it's pointed the wrong direction?

As I say my mum wouldn't fall for it. Who hasn't had an email or Facebook message from someone you know, with a link attached. You don't assume it's from them, you message them another way saying did you send it.

Then after clicking on the random link, if you put in your email and password then Jesus. If he was an older person unsure about computers you'd understand, but snps ex defence spokesman come on

[LewysGot2]

For some reason Craig Murray has his emails.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/02/i-have-stewart-mcdonalds-emails/

A not so thinly veiled threat to Sturgeon and her core supporters within the party, too?

And her other half and potential successor, Robertson :lips seal:confused:

He sounds like he’s on a mission motivated by recent run ins with the establishment and authority

[LewysGot2]

Murray just tweeted that the polis have paid him a visit

[Moulin Yarns]

That's incorrect. Glasgow funded the equal pay settlement through a sale and leaseback arrangement on some of its buildings.

The total cost of the equal pay settlement was over £700 million. Did they sell Kelvingrove Art Gallery to wetherspoons?

[Mibbes Aye]

The total cost of the equal pay settlement was over £700 million. Did they sell Kelvingrove Art Gallery to wetherspoons?

Did you not see the word 'leaseback' in my post you quoted? :confused:

Kelvingrove, GOMA and the City Chambers from memory, may have been others. Sold and leased back to generate capital for the equal pay settlement.

And regardless of all that, the equal pay settlement wouldn't have come out of revenue budget (which is what Aitken was referring to), it would come out of capital budget. I think you said you once worked in a council planning office - you should know the difference.

And regardless of all that and that, I moght be going out on a limb here but I suspect Shona Aitken knows Glasgow City Council's finances better than you do, she is the leader after all. And she is SNP. If it was all somebody else's fault why is she taking issue with her own party in a very public fashion?

[Stairway 2 7]

The police are involved in the McDonald story. Would the emails come under the "receiving stolen property" laws?

Saw a law professor commenting on whether its theft

ProfChalmers
No, because you can’t be guilty of theft of it (Grant v Allan) and so as it can’t be stolen property it can’t be the subject of reset. Data protection offences (assuming you’re thinking of the case I’m thinking of) are probably where any liability lies here.

[Lendo]

As I say my mum wouldn't fall for it. Who hasn't had an email or Facebook message from someone you know, with a link attached. You don't assume it's from them, you message them another way saying did you send it.

Then after clicking on the random link, if you put in your email and password then Jesus. If he was an older person unsure about computers you'd understand, but snps ex defence spokesman come on

My work run these Phising scams all the time to test our staff. You would be amazing at the number of idiots in a large organisation that fall for it time and time again.

[marinello59]

Saw a law professor commenting on whether its theft

ProfChalmers
No, because you can’t be guilty of theft of it (Grant v Allan) and so as it can’t be stolen property it can’t be the subject of reset. Data protection offences (assuming you’re thinking of the case I’m thinking of) are probably where any liability lies here.

Wasn’t it Stewart Macdonald who recently got the SNP Chief Whip sacked after Docherty-Hughes accused him of leaking party information?

[Just Alf]

My work run these Phising scams all the time to test our staff. You would be amazing at the number of idiots in a large organisation that fall for it time and time again.Ha ha mine too..... none come from a genuine email tho

[Stairway 2 7]

Wasn’t it Stewart Macdonald who recently got the SNP Chief Whip sacked after Docherty-Hughes accused him of leaking party information?

I know he was calling for Suella Braverman to be sacked when she was using private email for government information. Probably why he's going with the Russian super spy please click here and give us your password line.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ha ha mine too..... none come from a genuine email tho

Have you never had an email or Facebook message from someone you know asking to click a link, it genuinely happens all the time.

Warning for everyone else then. A popular one is an email from someone you know that says look at these photos of us, you click the link have to re enter your email address and password on a page that looks like your real email clients webpage.

If you get a link message from a friend saying click this, ask them on a separate messaging system what it is.

[James310]

Murray just tweeted that the polis have paid him a visit

I wonder if Joe Public would get a visit from Police Scotland about a what I assume is a data protection issue, especially literally a few hours after making it public he had access to the emails. Someone is worried.

[Just Alf]

Have you never had an email or Facebook message from someone you know asking to click a link, it genuinely happens all the time.

Warning for everyone else then. A popular one is an email from someone you know that says look at these photos of us, you click the link have to re enter your email address and password on a page that looks like your real email clients webpage.

If you get a link message from a friend saying click this, ask them on a separate messaging system what it is.

I hear you....


The 'test' ones we get look genuine... from Stairway 2 7@.... when you hover over it with yer mouse it's 2w345@....

In his case it was the actual email address.

Mind you, he was on his phone (I think?) So wouldn't be able to do the hover trick... .maybe should have checked, a seperate email would have gone to the hackers that control of the staffers account so it would have needed to be a call or quick text which would certainly have done the job and saved his blushes!

[ronaldo7]

We don't want a referendum any time soon, I think the opinion polls consistently show that.

Shona Aitken has made a serious point about democracy and accountablity. if you disagree with her, then that's beyween you and her. If you agree with her then you can't deny the hypocrisy of Sturgeon talking about democracy and mandates, when she and her ministers are doing exactly the same to local authorities.

I see you've been captured by the polls police.

We don't run the democratic system on the back of opinion polls. They come from manifestos and mandates.

Susan(not Shona) has every right to fight for her council doing as they see fit. She doesn't however get to trash agreements made on funding which has been ring fenced for specific aspects of government policy, and then shout about democracy.

[Jack]

I hear you....


The 'test' ones we get look genuine... from Stairway 2 7@.... when you hover over it with yer mouse it's 2w345@....

In his case it was the actual email address.

Mind you, he was on his phone (I think?) So wouldn't be able to do the hover trick... .maybe should have checked, a seperate email would have gone to the hackers that control of the staffers account so it would have needed to be a call or quick text which would certainly have done the job and saved his blushes!

I can check the real sender email address on my phone. I just tap in the address area and all becomes clear just the same as hovering on a PC.

[weecounty hibby]

I wonder if Joe Public would get a visit from Police Scotland about a what I assume is a data protection issue, especially literally a few hours after making it public he had access to the emails. Someone is worried.

Could it be that it is a national security issue? He may have sensitive information on a number of things. I would imagine this would happen for any MP. Just look at what happened to Assange. He was incredibly stupid but its amazing how much of a tizzy of excitement all of the anti snp/FM groups are getting about this.

[Stairway 2 7]

I hear you....


The 'test' ones we get look genuine... from Stairway 2 7@.... when you hover over it with yer mouse it's 2w345@....

In his case it was the actual email address.

Mind you, he was on his phone (I think?) So wouldn't be able to do the hover trick... .maybe should have checked, a seperate email would have gone to the hackers that control of the staffers account so it would have needed to be a call or quick text which would certainly have done the job and saved his blushes!

The ones that p me off are emails that look so real from companies telling me to click a link as I know many will do it. Anyway bit of a tangent now ha, I think we can agree phishing scammers are ****bags

[James310]

Could it be that it is a national security issue? He may have sensitive information on a number of things. I would imagine this would happen for any MP. Just look at what happened to Assange. He was incredibly stupid but its amazing how much of a tizzy of excitement all of the anti snp/FM groups are getting about this.

From what I can see he has some emails that say the SNP Westminster Group don't get on with Nicola Sturgeon, that's not exactly new news despite the various denials it was an issue.

If it is national security concerns I am sure the likes Mi5 will be all over this and the government would be issuing D notices. Maybe that's in motion now but it would be surprising as MacDonald would unlikely have gone public about it via the BBC in the first place.

[Rumble de Thump]

This guy has already made it clear he doesn't have a decent grasp of media law. His behaviour will likely land him in more bother in the future.

[Just Alf]

I can check the real sender email address on my phone. I just tap in the address area and all becomes clear just the same as hovering on a PC.

Every day's a school day! :-)

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64609550

Not before time. Hopefully it is an actual increase and not a rearranging of the furniture.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64609542

Independent probe launched into whether ferries contract was rigged.

[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64609542

Independent probe launched into whether ferries contract was rigged.Great. I like to see these things investigated quickly.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

I see you've been captured by the polls police.

We don't run the democratic system on the back of opinion polls. They come from manifestos and mandates.

Susan(not Shona) has every right to fight for her council doing as they see fit. She doesn't however get to trash agreements made on funding which has been ring fenced for specific aspects of government policy, and then shout about democracy.

So democracy denial only works if it is the UK supposedly doing it to Scotland. That’s not what SNP leader Aitken thinks, she thinks Sturgeon and her ministers are denying democracy to voters who elected people in their own communities.

Do you really want to stand by the comment that Aitken is ‘trashing agreements’ and ‘shouting about democracy’? Harsh words, not your usual style for a fellow Nat? I think Cllr Aitken has maybe shone a light on a dark place - do SNP members stand up for local and accountable democracy or do they circle the wagons round a beleaguered FM.

It isn’t an agreement when one partner has no choice in the matter. My interpretation is that Aitken doesn’t have a choice but to go public and draw attention to this, on behalf of the SNP voters and all the other voters in Glasgow.

[LewysGot2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64609550

Not before time. Hopefully it is an actual increase and not a rearranging of the furniture.

https://twitter.com/al_crosbie/status/1623045251769196545?t=HZHjkr7ipsIpt3ssLyZg8g&s=19

Interesting tweet...

[Just Alf]

https://twitter.com/al_crosbie/status/1623045251769196545?t=HZHjkr7ipsIpt3ssLyZg8g&s=19

Interesting tweet...Wishing I had those wage rises :-(

[Stairway 2 7]

Wishing I had those wage rises :-(

Unionise if you can. Public sector wages have grew much slower than private in the last decade, the gap is large now.

A good tweet in the replies puts it in perspective. A tough job is 7.8k less paid in real terms than ot was a decade ago.

Good on them for striking

MicGBanks1

@scotgov
and
@COSLA
Thanks for the pay history.A teacher on point 6, that's the majority.2011 to 2022 average cumulative inflation was 39. 28%.Cumulative teachers salary increases was 20.47%. 18.58% lost to inflation or £7814/ this year.Across the decade that's a cumulative loss in pay of over £48k

[LewysGot2]

Wishing I had those wage rises :-(

It's not exactly inflation busting stuff.

0 or 1%?

If its okay to ask what line of work are you in?

[LewysGot2]

Unionise if you can. Public sector wages have grew much slower than private in the last decade, the gap is large now.

A good tweet in the replies puts it in perspective. A tough job is 7.8k less paid in real terms than ot was a decade ago.

Good on them for striking

MicGBanks1

@scotgov
and
@COSLA
Thanks for the pay history.A teacher on point 6, that's the majority.2011 to 2022 average cumulative inflation was 39. 28%.Cumulative teachers salary increases was 20.47%. 18.58% lost to inflation or £7814/ this year.Across the decade that's a cumulative loss in pay of over £48k

It's good to see it broken down. Some of the political spin has been very disingenuous at best by the look of this.

I read a news article today that teacher training applications are down again this year. Especially for subjects where graduates can earn way more like computing, maths, certain sciences...and won't have to referee hundreds of teenagers each day.

5 years at university to train to be a secondary teacher as well.

[marinello59]

Unionise if you can. Public sector wages have grew much slower than private in the last decade, the gap is large now.

A good tweet in the replies puts it in perspective. A tough job is 7.8k less paid in real terms than ot was a decade ago.

Good on them for striking

MicGBanks1

@scotgov
and
@COSLA
Thanks for the pay history.A teacher on point 6, that's the majority.2011 to 2022 average cumulative inflation was 39. 28%.Cumulative teachers salary increases was 20.47%. 18.58% lost to inflation or £7814/ this year.Across the decade that's a cumulative loss in pay of over £48k

I’ve been boring people to death since Covid hit telling them to join a Union. It was obvious that the bill was going to be handed to working people. Forget the constitution, the best political decision you could make just now is to get involved in your union.

[LewysGot2]

I’ve been boring people to death since Covid hit telling them to join a Union. It was obvious that the bill was going to be handed to working people. Forget the constitution, the best political decision you could make just now is to get involved in your union.

Of course it was. I'm still stunned at the number of folk not joining the dots. Furlough alone will have cost astronomical amounts. It was always going to have to be paid back - and not just by those who got it. And definitely not by the millionaire and billionaires who benefitted most.Lots of little people worked as normal through the pandemic but will shoulder a share of the cost of it.
Never mind PPE etc...

[WeeRussell]

I’ve been boring people to death since Covid hit telling them to join a Union. It was obvious that the bill was going to be handed to working people. Forget the constitution, the best political decision you could make just now is to get involved in your union.

Not boring me anyway 👍

In fact, in terms of ‘benefits of being in a union’ posters go.. you’re about the only one that doesn’t bore me on here 😉

[ronaldo7]

So democracy denial only works if it is the UK supposedly doing it to Scotland. That’s not what SNP leader Aitken thinks, she thinks Sturgeon and her ministers are denying democracy to voters who elected people in their own communities.

Do you really want to stand by the comment that Aitken is ‘trashing agreements’ and ‘shouting about democracy’? Harsh words, not your usual style for a fellow Nat? I think Cllr Aitken has maybe shone a light on a dark place - do SNP members stand up for local and accountable democracy or do they circle the wagons round a beleaguered FM.

It isn’t an agreement when one partner has no choice in the matter. My interpretation is that Aitken doesn’t have a choice but to go public and draw attention to this, on behalf of the SNP voters and all the other voters in Glasgow.

Agreements are made by two parties. I'm surprised you'd think otherwise...then again, you're Labour

I see manifestos, and mandates don't work in your world at the moment. Maybe if Sir keir had said as much you'd be fawning all over it.

Susan( not shona) is fighting the corner for her council as I'd expect of all council leaders, but, you, trying to make it all about a fight within the SNP says more about you than anything else imo.

Susan(not shona) isn't fighting against the leadership of the SNP as you want to portray.

She wants wants best for her city, as we all do.

It's a pity in councils all over Scotland you and the labour party are happy aligning with the Tories and Brexit.

Own it.

Democracy denial is where your party is at. I don't expect you to fight that given your "support" for Jeremy.

[Glory Lurker]

Of course it was. I'm still stunned at the number of folk not joining the dots. Furlough alone will have cost astronomical amounts. It was always going to have to be paid back - and not just by those who got it. And definitely not by the millionaire and billionaires who benefitted most.Lots of little people worked as normal through the pandemic but will shoulder a share of the cost of it.
Never mind PPE etc...

Add on to that the left deserting the field in the 80s and accepting the low tax mantra. We're reaping the whirlwind.

[Mibbes Aye]

Agreements are made by two parties. I'm surprised you'd think otherwise...then again, you're Labour

I see manifestos, and mandates don't work in your world at the moment. Maybe if Sir keir had said as much you'd be fawning all over it.

Susan( not shona) is fighting the corner for her council as I'd expect of all council leaders, but, you, trying to make it all about a fight within the SNP says more about you than anything else imo.

Susan(not shona) isn't fighting against the leadership of the SNP as you want to portray.

She wants wants best for her city, as we all do.

It's a pity in councils all over Scotland you and the labour party are happy aligning with the Tories and Brexit.

Own it.

Democracy denial is where your party is at. I don't expect you to fight that given your "support" for Jeremy.

Gosh, there’s a whole lot about me in that post rather than the point.

All I’m asking is if you are standing by your comment. Which was that when the SNP leader of Glasgow City Council criticises Sturgeon and her ministers for denying democracy, she is ‘trashing agreements’ and ‘shouting’.

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fa9f6d2c-aa2d-11ed-9813-2dc4880907f5?shareToken=6edadeae08f82a50d4373bf5fe 387cdd

Kate Forbes the favoured successor as polling shows four in 10 back Sturgeon's resignation.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fa9f6d2c-aa2d-11ed-9813-2dc4880907f5?shareToken=6edadeae08f82a50d4373bf5fe 387cdd

Kate Forbes the favoured successor as polling shows four in 10 back Sturgeon's resignation.

Four in ten? Done deal then. [emoji23]


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[Paul1642]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fa9f6d2c-aa2d-11ed-9813-2dc4880907f5?shareToken=6edadeae08f82a50d4373bf5fe 387cdd

Kate Forbes the favoured successor as polling shows four in 10 back Sturgeon's resignation.

The SNP have a problem when Sturgeon goes and the sensible supporters know it. When Salmond was leader Sturgeon was always well knows to the public and the obvious successor. This does not exists this time round.

One of the SNPs main attractions in recent years had been the near celebrity status of their leaders which will be lost after surgeon.

I bet few non politically minded folk could even name the leader of Scottish Labour, Conservatives or Greens. The SNP will join that group with the likes of Forbes in charge.

As a non SNP voter I personally think the their members should be careful what they wish for because as soon as Sturgeon goes their votes will plummet. She might have made a mess of things by getting far too involved in the trans debate but she’s still a well known face with a reasonable amount of public trust.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP have a problem when Sturgeon goes and the sensible supporters know it. When Salmond was leader Sturgeon was always well knows to the public and the obvious successor. This does not exists this time round.

One of the SNPs main attractions in recent years had been the near celebrity status of their leaders which will be lost after surgeon.

I bet few non politically minded folk could even name the leader of Scottish Labour, Conservatives or Greens. The SNP will join that group with the likes of Forbes in charge.

As a non SNP voter I personally think the their members should be careful what they wish for because as soon as Sturgeon goes their votes will plummet. She might have made a mess of things by getting far too involved in the trans debate but she’s still a well known face with a reasonable amount of public trust.

SNP voters don’t wish for it. Scots voters don’t even wish for it. The poll literally says 4 in 10 Scot’s voters want it.


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[marinello59]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fa9f6d2c-aa2d-11ed-9813-2dc4880907f5?shareToken=6edadeae08f82a50d4373bf5fe 387cdd

Kate Forbes the favoured successor as polling shows four in 10 back Sturgeon's resignation.


Going.by that list of potential successors Sturgeon should be safe for a while.

[Stairway 2 7]

SNP voters don’t wish for it. Scots voters don’t even wish for it. The poll literally says 4 in 10 Scot’s voters want it.


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I disagree I think she's soon getting too disliked by a portion that need won over. As we know 40% on each side aren't switching and the only interest should be on the middle.

Blackford wasn't popular but I think flynn could be, he'll rise up these polls the more he's seen, . He seems to already be showing his differences in many areas, looks assured and confident. I'd give him a year or two to establish and then get him in personally

[Just Alf]

It's not exactly inflation busting stuff.

0 or 1%?

If its okay to ask what line of work are you in?No worries.... Property management...


Nowt for a couple of years 0.8% last year... 2% this year whoop whoop! :greengrin

A good few of the experienced guys have/ are heading for pastures new.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1624694803802759170?s=20&t=QBJkELJ7Qw-Xm0GLcVd8Sw

Police Scotland step up scrutiny of SNP finances as part of long-running fraud inquiry.

[He's here!]

Going.by that list of potential successors Sturgeon should be safe for a while.

The reason Forbes will be the front runner is because she shares public opinion on gender reforms but didn’t blot her copybook by joining the SNP rebels due to being on maternity leave. She could of course have voted remotely but chose not to vote at all.

[LewysGot2]

The reason Forbes will be the front runner is because she shares public opinion on gender reforms but didn’t blot her copybook by joining the SNP rebels due to being on maternity leave. She could of course have voted remotely but chose not to vote at all.

Would be interesting to see if she became party leader how the relationship with the Greens went. GRA was clearly part of the deal between Sturgeon and Harvey joining forces...

It has also neutered the Greens in some respect- big difference in Ross Greers willingness to speak out on the very issues he was quite vocal about prior to the political marriage...

[James310]

On BBC Sunday show the bottle deposit return scheme sounds like a shambles in the waiting. Lorna Slater was invited on the show but was not available as was anyone else from the Scottish Government. Funnily enough nobody from Zero Waste Scotland and Circularity Scotland was available as well.

So in the summer any glass, bottle or can is going up 20p. So a 6 pack of Cola is going up £1.20. How does a family already struggling to pay bills find the extra money for this? Will people be organised enough to sort out the process to get all their money back? How does a disabled person get to these places if they get shopping delivered etc.

Insanely complex is how it was described and lots of unanswered questions. Businesses need to sign up in next 2 weeks. Estimate that 20% to 40% of products will disappear from the shelves.

Alex Salmond had his many faults but he understood business, very few in the SG today seem to.

[LewysGot2]

On BBC Sunday show the bottle deposit return scheme sounds like a shambles in the waiting. Lorna Slater was invited on the show but was not available as was anyone else from the Scottish Government. Funnily enough nobody from Zero Waste Scotland and Circularity Scotland was available as well.

So in the summer any glass, bottle or can is going up 20p. So a 6 pack of Cola is going up £1.20. How does a family already struggling to pay bills find the extra money for this? Will people be organised enough to sort out the process to get all their money back? How does a disabled person get to these places if they get shopping delivered etc.

Insanely complex is how it was described and lots of unanswered questions. Businesses need to sign up in next 2 weeks. Estimate that 20% to 40% of products will disappear from the shelves.

Alex Salmond had his many faults but he understood business, very few in the SG today seem to.

Businesses need to sign up by Friday

[Just Alf]

On BBC Sunday show the bottle deposit return scheme sounds like a shambles in the waiting. Lorna Slater was invited on the show but was not available as was anyone else from the Scottish Government. Funnily enough nobody from Zero Waste Scotland and Circularity Scotland was available as well.

So in the summer any glass, bottle or can is going up 20p. So a 6 pack of Cola is going up £1.20. How does a family already struggling to pay bills find the extra money for this? Will people be organised enough to sort out the process to get all their money back? How does a disabled person get to these places if they get shopping delivered etc.

Insanely complex is how it was described and lots of unanswered questions. Businesses need to sign up in next 2 weeks. Estimate that 20% to 40% of products will disappear from the shelves.

Alex Salmond had his many faults but he understood business, very few in the SG today seem to.Got to say , seems crazy going ahead with it this year... really needs to be done UK wide .

[James310]

Businesses need to sign up by Friday

Apparently the Governments own report said it was not ready for August but they are going ahead.

If Edinburgh Council stop kerbside recycling then imagine all the extra miles of the journeys to these machines to get your money back. If you don't have a car then tough luck I guess.

[He's here!]

Got to say , seems crazy going ahead with it this year... really needs to be done UK wide .

It's a devolved issue so the SG were keen to look like trailblazers. Unfortunately it's now been delayed for a third time and is shaping up as Sturgeon's next major blunder with drinks producers despairing at the lack of clarity and rising costs. As I said earlier in the thread, putting Slater in charge hasn't helped.

[He's here!]

Apparently the Governments own report said it was not ready for August but they are going ahead.

If Edinburgh Council stop kerbside recycling then imagine all the extra miles of the journeys to these machines to get your money back. If you don't have a car then tough luck I guess.

I suspect it the whole thing may be put 'on hold'.

[Just Alf]

I suspect it the whole thing may be put 'on hold'.Yup, really needs to tie in with the Westminster version of the legislation

[Ozyhibby]

I suspect it the whole thing may be put 'on hold'.

I think that will happen this week.


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[Ozyhibby]

Yup, really needs to tie in with the Westminster version of the legislation

Why? It’s a devolved issue.


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[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/Martin1Williams/status/1624694805287641089?s=20&t=D1c1Hf9oh78qPwl3w-Eqmw

Cost to taxpayer of ferries fiasco approaches half a billion pounds.

Not a good morning of headlines for Sturgeon.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1704501/Return-of-money-back-bottle-and-cans.html


https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/normalising-bottle-return-and-reuse-lessons-from-the-victorians-on-the-limits-of-voluntary-schemes


Those of a certain vintage will remember getting money for empty juice bottles, why is it such an issue now??

[archie]

Why? It’s a devolved issue.


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But has impacts beyond Scotland.

[James310]

But has impacts beyond Scotland.

Haven't we been here before?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1704501/Return-of-money-back-bottle-and-cans.html


https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/normalising-bottle-return-and-reuse-lessons-from-the-victorians-on-the-limits-of-voluntary-schemes


Those of a certain vintage will remember getting money for empty juice bottles, why is it such an issue now??

It’s not. It’s a system that works very well in Norway. I think the problem is we don’t appear to be very ready for its launch. Better to delay than have a poor launch. Policy delivery as important as the idea.


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[Ozyhibby]

But has impacts beyond Scotland.

Such as?


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[archie]

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1704501/Return-of-money-back-bottle-and-cans.html


https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/normalising-bottle-return-and-reuse-lessons-from-the-victorians-on-the-limits-of-voluntary-schemes


Those of a certain vintage will remember getting money for empty juice bottles, why is it such an issue now??

Because the scheme you recall put the onus on the consumer to return the bottle for cash. This scheme puts the onus on the producer, with fines for not meeting minimum thresholds of recycling and all overseen by a complicated administrative tracking process.

[marinello59]

But has impacts beyond Scotland.

As it stands just now it will impact negatively on Scottish businesses. I’m not so sure it has any impact elsewhere.

[archie]

Such as?


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Suppliers from outside Scotland will have to sign up for the scheme. So they will face registration and production costs that don't apply in other parts of the UK.

[James310]

As it stands just now it will impact negatively on Scottish businesses. I’m not so sure it has any impact elsewhere.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotland-bottle-deposit-return-scheme-29162395

[archie]

As it stands just now it will impact negatively on Scottish businesses. I’m not so sure it has any impact elsewhere.
Well if business from outside Scotland sells in Scotland it will affect them.

[Ozyhibby]

Well if business from outside Scotland sells in Scotland it will affect them.

That is the case for countries all over Europe.


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[James310]

Well if business from outside Scotland sells in Scotland it will affect them.

Businesses will just stop selling in Scotland, that's what the guy on the Sunday show was saying. It will reduce products by 20%-40% potentially.

For the smaller producers it probably just won't be worth their while.

[James310]

That is the case for countries all over Europe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So even less choice then if they just stop sending products to Scotland.

[archie]

That is the case for countries all over Europe.


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Discussion of specific issues here https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2023/01/deposit-return-scheme-good-or-bad/

[He's here!]

As it stands just now it will impact negatively on Scottish businesses. I’m not so sure it has any impact elsewhere.

It's certainly a major (in some cases potentially business-ending) issue for smaller brewers/drinks producers. The last time I saw Slater talk about it her attitude was pretty much 'tough, green/climate change issues are more important than maintaining your livelihood'.

It's been ill thought-out from the start (initial announcement was in 2017) and just seems to be getting messier. IIRC the rest of the UK isn't due to follow suit until 2025 so it may be we'll see a nationwide strategy negotiated and the Scotland-only 'flagship' scheme set aside.

[Ozyhibby]

It's certainly a major (in some cases potentially business-ending) issue for smaller brewers/drinks producers. The last time I saw Slater talk about it her attitude was pretty much 'tough, green/climate change issues are more important than maintaining your livelihood'.

It's been ill thought-out from the start (initial announcement was in 2017) and just seems to be getting messier. IIRC the rest of the UK isn't due to follow suit until 2025 so it may be we'll see a nationwide strategy negotiated and the Scotland-only 'flagship' scheme set aside.

Which is why there will probably be a softer launch that only affects the biggest retailers at first so that any problems can be identified before gradually increasing its scope.


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[Ozyhibby]

Discussion of specific issues here https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2023/01/deposit-return-scheme-good-or-bad/

I doubt anybody serious is overly worried about people crossing the border to claim 20p back on a container they bought in England.


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[James310]

From the Scotsman.

"Manchester-based Chris Jones, who is the manager director of Paragon Brands, which distributes drinks brands from around the world into the UK, said that they have already stopped their beers being sold in Scotland. He said: “One of the brands within our portfolio is a beer we make ourselves and which sells in multiple countries. We’ve taken the decision to withdraw the beer from Scotland. So while we're going to continue with it on draft format, because it's in a recyclable 50 litre keg, the cans and bottles, we're going to withdraw from the Scottish market.”

"Siren Craft Brew in Wokingham have also stated that they’ll be withdrawing from Scotland, saying: “without some profound changes to the scheme I cannot see how small breweries, us included will be able to provide cans in Scotland. As it stands we shall be withdrawing small pack from Scotland.”

"Brew Cavern from Nottingham have also spelled out their concerns, saying “A reasonable percentage of our turnover comes from sales into Scotland. What right does (Lorna Slater) have to strip that away because (there’s been) no engagement with small businesses to address their concerns? We sell products from over 100 breweries, cider and wine makers. It’s logistically impossible to ensure they’re all signed up to this scheme, especially as some are overseas breweries who may not see any value in registering.”

[He's here!]

I doubt anybody serious is overly worried about people crossing the border to claim 20p back on a container they bought in England.


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Far from unthinkable that folk from Scotland will buy in bulk from across the border though. That article does articulate very well the reasons this scheme is likely to create more problems than it solves.

[archie]

I doubt anybody serious is overly worried about people crossing the border to claim 20p back on a container they bought in England.


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It's the producer who will be subject to financial penalties. So if the are outwith Scotland and sell here they are still liable.

[James310]

It's the producer who will be subject to financial penalties. So if the are outwith Scotland and sell here they are still liable.

But the Minister responsible doesn't know where the fines go. When Lorna Slater was asked at the parliamentary committee she said "I don't know"

[He's here!]

Which is why there will probably be a softer launch that only affects the biggest retailers at first so that any problems can be identified before gradually increasing its scope.


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It's not unreasonable for the SG to cite the pandemic as a contributory cause to the launch delay. It's had a significant impact on costs across pretty much all industries. However, from a logistics point of view they've had six years to identify any potential problems, yet those problems seem only to be increasing.

[Zambernardi1875]

It's the producer who will be subject to financial penalties. So if the are outwith Scotland and sell here they are still liable.

How would that work with big international companies that sell all over the uk? Have specific labelled cans and bottles for only the Scottish market?

[Hibrandenburg]

How would that work with big international companies that sell all over the uk? Have specific labelled cans and bottles for only the Scottish market?

Works fine in the EU.

[Zambernardi1875]

Works fine in the EU.

Yeah I’m wondering how it will work. You pay £2.40 more on a 12 pack and get it back. Also where will these recycling places be located if say I bought a can of coke out a corner shop?

[greenginger]

Yeah I’m wondering how it will work. You pay £2.40 more on a 12 pack and get it back. Also where will these recycling places be located if say I bought a can of coke out a corner shop?

Theres one in the car park of our local Sainsbury

[James310]

Works fine in the EU.

But at the moment say you are exporting your wine to the UK from France, it will be labeled as being sent to the UK and arrive in the UK and be distributed throughout the UK. Now this producer will need to register with the Scottish Government and have different labels for Scotland so likely a new production run or something, if they don't comply they get fined. So extra costs and a new production line will need established, for some it might be fine but for smaller producers they will probably just not bother and stop producing for the Scottish market.

As for the fine I am not sure how that would work, how can the Scottish Government fine a company based in France.

[James310]

Theres one in the car park of our local Sainsbury

So if you bought your can of coke at the corner shop what does the Sainsburys machine give you back? 20p for Sainsburys? Even although you never bought it there in the first place? Or literally a 20p coin?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah I’m wondering how it will work. You pay £2.40 more on a 12 pack and get it back. Also where will these recycling places be located if say I bought a can of coke out a corner shop?

Over here the supermarkets have machines that collect the empties and give you a voucher that you can cash at the check-out. Smaller shops take the empties over the counter.

[Ozyhibby]

Over here the supermarkets have machines that collect the empties and give you a voucher that you can cash at the check-out. Smaller shops take the empties over the counter.

Seems pretty straight forward. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are working examples to copy all over Europe.


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[James310]

Seems pretty straight forward. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are working examples to copy all over Europe.


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Lol, overly complex was the description from the Scottish Hospitality Group, but what do they know. They probably just hate Nicola Sturgeon.

[Zambernardi1875]

Seems pretty straight forward. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are working examples to copy all over Europe.


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Seems a disadvantage to small business though as big supermarkets will easily supply these RVM and benefit from people collecting cans they bought at the corner shop to spend in Tesco. Even though the corner shop has put an extra 20p on each can

[Hibrandenburg]

But at the moment say you are exporting your wine to the UK from France, it will be labeled as being sent to the UK and arrive in the UK and be distributed throughout the UK. Now this producer will need to register with the Scottish Government and have different labels for Scotland so likely a new production run or something, if they don't comply they get fined. So extra costs and a new production line will need established, for some it might be fine but for smaller producers they will probably just not bother and stop producing for the Scottish market.

As for the fine I am not sure how that would work, how can the Scottish Government fine a company based in France.

It's illegal to sell some drinks containers that are non-returnable. The deposit is added to the price of the container by the supermarket and payed back when the container is returned. The supermarket will then sell the returns to recycling companies who will either recycle them or dispose of them in an environmentally friendly way.

The manufacturer only has to ensure the labelling is correct for the country they export to, which they already do due to other regulations regarding language and nutritional information.

[archie]

Over here the supermarkets have machines that collect the empties and give you a voucher that you can cash at the check-out. Smaller shops take the empties over the counter.

I think the key point there is that the consumer makes the decision. In the Scottish scheme a company can get fined if the threshold for recycling has not been met

[James310]

It's illegal to sell some drinks containers that are non-returnable. The deposit is added to the price of the container by the supermarket and payed back when the container is returned. The supermarket will then sell the returns to recycling companies who will either recycle them or dispose of them in an environmentally friendly way.

The manufacturer only has to ensure the labelling is correct for the country they export to, which they already do due to other regulations regarding language and nutritional information.

So why are many producers saying they won't bother sending products to Scotland if it's so easy and straight forward?

[Zambernardi1875]

It's illegal to sell some drinks containers that are non-returnable. The deposit is added to the price of the container by the supermarket and payed back when the container is returned. The supermarket will then sell the returns to recycling companies who will either recycle them or dispose of them in an environmentally friendly way.

The manufacturer only has to ensure the labelling is correct for the country they export to, which they already do due to other regulations regarding language and nutritional information.

So if I buy wholesale from England, the companies supplying the wholesale companies in England will have to work out how much they roughly sell to Scotland and supply different labels? Also why add a cost to the consumer instead of increasing and improving recycling centres.

[archie]

Seems pretty straight forward. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are working examples to copy all over Europe.


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You won't like this as it is from a trade body, but it raises interesting points, including comparisons with Europe. https://wsta.co.uk/myth-busting-deposit-return-schemes/

[Hibrandenburg]

So why are many producers saying they won't bother sending products to Scotland if it's so easy and straight forward?

There was a similar reaction over here before the laws came into effect and drinks manufacturers and retailers fought in court to stop the introduction of the new laws right up until they were introduced. The legal actions only managed to delay the introduction for 9 months, but low and behold, nobody stopped selling their products in Germany.

Of course manufacturers want as little hassle as possible in getting their products to market, but even they have a responsibility to the environment, one that they now have to take seriously.

If you ask your average German about the recycling laws, I'm sure the vast majority wouldn't want to go back to the old ways.

[Hibrandenburg]

So if I buy wholesale from England, the companies supplying the wholesale companies in England will have to work out how much they roughly sell to Scotland and supply different labels? Also why add a cost to the consumer instead of increasing and improving recycling centres.

I don't share your faith in people to do the right thing, having a deposit on glass and plastic only costs money if they don't return the items for recycling.

[Hibrandenburg]

:confused:

I've updated my typo.

[James310]

There was a similar reaction over here before the laws came into effect and drinks manufacturers and retailers fought in court to stop the introduction of the new laws right up until they were introduced. The legal actions only managed to delay the introduction for 9 months, but low and behold, nobody stopped selling their products in Germany.

Of course manufacturers want as little hassle as possible in getting their products to market, but even they have a responsibility to the environment, one that they now have to take seriously.

If you ask your average German about the recycling laws, I'm sure the vast majority wouldn't want to go back to the old ways.

Has anywhere else launched a similar scheme in a small part of a deeply integrated free-trade area when the rest of that area was about to launch a quite different scheme?

[Just Alf]

Why? It’s a devolved issue.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBecause its the fact that manufacturers/brewers are going to have to run two systems at.once that's causing them so much angst as it is greatly.increasing their costs.

Both sides.of the border changing at once takes the duplication element out of the equation.

[Hibrandenburg]

Has anywhere else launched a similar scheme in a small part of a deeply integrated free-trade area when the rest of that area was about to launch a quite different scheme?

I've no idea, but the benefits hugely outweigh the minor problems, there's no better solution on offer but if you keep looking for problems then you'll find some. Pretty much like nearly every progressive policy. But maybe Scotland is just too wee, poor and stupid to enact change.

[Hibrandenburg]

Because its the fact that manufacturers/brewers are going to have to run two systems at.once that's causing them so much angst as it is greatly.increasing their costs.

Both sides.of the border changing at once takes the duplication element out of the equation.

I doubt tapping a few changes into a computerised label printing machine is going to "greatly increase" manufacturing costs.

[Zambernardi1875]

good thread on some of the issues for small business

https://twitter.com/Brew_Theo/status/1618958464113610754?s=20&t=oBahk9cJqn9zXuI0tPjFwQ

[James310]

I doubt tapping a few changes into a computerised label printing machine is going to "greatly increase" manufacturing costs.

Yet lots of companies seem to find it difficult, you should become a consultant where you go into these business who obviously don't know their own business and manufacturing process and tell them it's easy to just change some labels.

[Stairway 2 7]

good thread on some of the issues for small business

https://twitter.com/Brew_Theo/status/1618958464113610754?s=20&t=oBahk9cJqn9zXuI0tPjFwQ

Interesting ta

[Zambernardi1875]

I've no idea, but the benefits hugely outweigh the minor problems, there's no better solution on offer but if you keep looking for problems then you'll find some. Pretty much like nearly every progressive policy. But maybe Scotland is just too wee, poor and stupid to enact change.

im struggling to understand the point in the 20p, people already recycle at home, the cost of each RVM will be about 8-10k how many of these will be needed in scotland?

will people really keep a can in there bag to wait for a machine or just put it in normal recycling bin. you also didnt answer my question about wholesalers. if you listen to small business this has nothing to do with being too wee poor or stupid but rather cutting youre nose off to spite ones face.

the only major problem now will be the clamer to hold house parties

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet lots of companies seem to find it difficult, you should become a consultant where you go into these business who obviously don't know their own business and manufacturing process and tell them it's easy to just change some labels.

Meeeow! Just giving you my opinion on how it works here but I suppose it doesn't support your everything the SNP does bad agenda.

[Hibrandenburg]

im struggling to understand the point in the 20p, people already recycle at home, the cost of each RVM will be about 8-10k how many of these will be needed in scotland?

will people really keep a can in there bag to wait for a machine or just put it in normal recycling bin. you also didnt answer my question about wholesalers. if you listen to small business this has nothing to do with being too wee poor or stupid but rather cutting youre nose off to spite ones face.

the only major problem now will be the clamer to hold house parties

I'm simply sharing my opinion on recycling as someone who lives in a country that already has a similar system in place that works well. Why would Scotland again be an exception?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23315574.stewart-mcdonald-russia-good-friends-england-doctrine/

Excellent interview today with Stewart Macdonald.


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[Zambernardi1875]

I'm simply sharing my opinion on recycling as someone who lives in a country that already has a similar system in place that works well. Why would Scotland again be an exception?

was the system rolled out throughout the whole country or just a few separate states or regions first? im all for the system working but it has to be the right one to benefit scotland

[Ozyhibby]

was the system rolled out throughout the whole country or just a few separate states or regions first? im all for the system working but it has to be the right one to benefit scotland

Some sort of phased roll out is probably the best way to go to begin with.


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[Zambernardi1875]

Some sort of phased roll out is probably the best way to go to begin with.


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How would that be implemented

[Ozyhibby]

How would that be implemented

Personally I have no clue but if I was charged with the task I would look at exactly what other successful roll outs had done and copy it.

This is a pretty simple issue. Do we want to recycle more? Yes I think would be the answer. What are other countries who already recycle more doing? Ok, let’s copy that. Will business complain? Absolutely.


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[Zambernardi1875]

Personally I have no clue but if I was charged with the task I would look at exactly what other successful roll outs had done and copy it.

This is a pretty simple issue. Do we want to recycle more? Yes I think would be the answer. What are other countries who already recycle more doing? Ok, let’s copy that. Will business complain? Absolutely.


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How would that work?

Answer - I have no clue. 😂

Are you Lorna slater

[degenerated]

I doubt anybody serious is overly worried about people crossing the border to claim 20p back on a container they bought in England.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAll those folk that the papers reckoned would piling down to Carlisle and Berwick for cheaper booze, win squared for them :greengrin

[Just Alf]

I doubt tapping a few changes into a computerised label printing machine is going to "greatly increase" manufacturing costs.It's just what the rep for the manufacturers was saying in the interview .

[James310]

Meeeow! Just giving you my opinion on how it works here but I suppose it doesn't support your everything the SNP does bad agenda.

I guess it balances out the everything is good because it's the SNP attitude, but I am merely going by what the actual people in industry are saying while you seem to be ignoring that. I guess time will tell.

[WeeRussell]

I'm simply sharing my opinion on recycling as someone who lives in a country that already has a similar system in place that works well. Why would Scotland again be an exception?

Because no matter what evidence there is and what so many other countries in the world do (even sometimes evidence associated with every single country that has ever done what Scotland proposes to do)… it just won’t work. Trust me. The SNP have lost the plot. Sturgeon is tying herself in knots. And the polls don’t show that this will work.

Haven’t you learned that yet?

[Hibrandenburg]

I guess it balances out the everything is good because it's the SNP attitude, but I am merely going by what the actual people in industry are saying while you seem to be ignoring that. I guess time will tell.

I'm not ignoring it, I pointed out the Germans faced similar scaremongering from manufacturers and retailers prior to its introduction here, but despite all the predictions of doom it works. The streets are tidier, less plastic waste and even people making extra cash collecting discarded containers.

[grunt]

I guess it balances out the everything is good because it's the SNP attitude, but I am merely going by what the actual people in industry are saying while you seem to be ignoring that. I guess time will tell.
Do you mean actual people in the industry who don't want to do it?

[James310]

Do you mean actual people in the industry who don't want to do it?

No, if you listened to the various different interviews they want to do it but it a sensible and coordinated way. Which is exactly not being offered to them now. They asked for a blueprint last year and are still waiting for one. The Scottish Governments own report says it won't be ready.

[Hibrandenburg]

Because no matter what evidence there is and what so many other countries in the world do (even sometimes evidence associated with every single country that has ever done what Scotland proposes to do)… it just won’t work. Trust me. The SNP have lost the plot. Sturgeon is tying herself in knots. And the polls don’t show that this will work.

Haven’t you learned that yet?

It's so transparent what the motivation behind their stance is that any valid points they might make are redundant.

[Zambernardi1875]

It's so transparent what the motivation behind their stance is that any valid points they might make are redundant.

I’m sure everyone in the industries effected would have full confidence in the plan being put in place if all the questions and queries regarding the issue were answered. You can’t just say “well it works here” so shut it. Too many people on here just blindly backing the idea without any proper input because it’s an snp greens idea. No doubt the same posters who would be going bananas if the tories did it in England first

[WeeRussell]

It's so transparent what the motivation behind their stance is that any valid points they might make are redundant.

I couldn’t agree more.

As long as people are filling their days and enjoying themselves I guess.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's so transparent what the motivation behind their stance is that any valid points they might make are redundant.

That's a handy device for avoiding fair questions isn't it? :greengrin

If we can learn from Germany then fair dos. Did Lower Saxony roll out a model a few years ahead of the rest of the Bundesrepublik? What helped it work well, what was problematic? That sounds like a good starting point.

My only reason for picking Lower Saxony is that it seems roughly about the same population scale.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's a handy device for avoiding fair questions isn't it? :greengrin

If we can learn from Germany then fair dos. Did Lower Saxony roll out a model a few years ahead of the rest of the Bundesrepublik? What helped it work well, what was problematic? That sounds like a good starting point.

My only reason for picking Lower Saxony is that it seems roughly about the same population scale.

The Bundesländer all had different systems until it was made national law in 2003. Everybody has to drink, putting a deposit on containers gave people the motivation to return them, if you can pack your car or shopping bag with drinks to take home, then with a little finacial motivation you'll be able to pack them full on your way back to the shops.

Manufacturers will always complain about adding complexity to their business no matter how small an inconvenience it is, their first priority is profit and as the past has shown us, even at the cost to the environment.

[Stairway 2 7]

The boy on the breakfast show used Germany as an example. 2% of bottles aren't returned each year in Germany it creates a 200 million euro bonus for retailers who put on the mark up. In Scotland it will be 200 million out of the companies pocket as they only get money back when it's returned, obviously less dueto population.

I'm all for the scheme though, although not for glass when we've got high rates due to council pickups. The problem is its clearly not ready and getting pushed through for some unknown reason

[archie]

One theory is that the unspoken aim is to push out glass packaging, as the costs of managing glass recycling are so much higher.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Completely agree with the DRS policy intentions of increasing recycling rates, but personally I'd rather stick to the kerbside recycling collections. Here in East Lothian we get recycling collected weekly, with 4 separate containers for food waste, glass, plastic, and cardboard and I think it works well. (Although I am aware there were many moans on social media when the council changed to weekly collections with additional containers, with some suggesting it would put them off bothering, so maybe an approach with a financial incentive is needed).

The DRS approach may also mean more car journeys - I get my food shopping delivered, so I'd need to make additional trips to the shops to return glass / plastic bottles under the new scheme that I wouldn't otherwise be making.

[archie]

I think the discussion here illustrates a key point. No matter how simple something looks to to fix, it inevitably isn't. The policy intentions are well meant. But the practicalities have lots of moving parts that will need lots of bedding in. It's just the way it is. I'll give an example of the complexity. Some on here have talked about old schemes where lemonade was delivered and empties picked up. Why not just do that? Well you can't mix up used and empties anymore in the same vehicle for health reasons. So developing the policy is the easy bit. The implementation is the hard bit.

[Ozyhibby]

Completely agree with the DRS policy intentions of increasing recycling rates, but personally I'd rather stick to the kerbside recycling collections. Here in East Lothian we get recycling collected weekly, with 4 separate containers for food waste, glass, plastic, and cardboard and I think it works well. (Although I am aware there were many moans on social media when the council changed to weekly collections with additional containers, with some suggesting it would put them off bothering, so maybe an approach with a financial incentive is needed).

The DRS approach may also mean more car journeys - I get my food shopping delivered, so I'd need to make additional trips to the shops to return glass / plastic bottles under the new scheme that I wouldn't otherwise be making.

I guess it’s about what gets the most recycling done?


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[Ozyhibby]

I think the discussion here illustrates a key point. No matter how simple something looks to to fix, it inevitably isn't. The policy intentions are well meant. But the practicalities have lots of moving parts that will need lots of bedding in. It's just the way it is. I'll give an example of the complexity. Some on here have talked about old schemes where lemonade was delivered and empties picked up. Why not just do that? Well you can't mix up used and empties anymore in the same vehicle for health reasons. So developing the policy is the easy bit. The implementation is the hard bit.

That’s exactly right. This is a good policy idea. It’s all about delivery now. They need to make sure the implementation is smooth. If they have to delay to do that then fine.


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[Jack]

I think the discussion here illustrates a key point. No matter how simple something looks to to fix, it inevitably isn't. The policy intentions are well meant. But the practicalities have lots of moving parts that will need lots of bedding in. It's just the way it is. I'll give an example of the complexity. Some on here have talked about old schemes where lemonade was delivered and empties picked up. Why not just do that? Well you can't mix up used and empties anymore in the same vehicle for health reasons. So developing the policy is the easy bit. The implementation is the hard bit.

I think this thread is filled with those who continually look for ways things can't be done rather than looking at ways things could happen for the benefit of everyone.

I can't think of anything that was worth it (for everyone) that is easy.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230212/46d10670f47df31374ef3c62759643f9.jpg

Could be wasting our time discussing it mind you. Alistair Jack might just stop it anyway.


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[grunt]

Could be wasting our time discussing it mind you. Alistair Jack might just stop it anyway.
Is this another s35?

[archie]

I think this thread is filled with those who continually look for ways things can't be done rather than looking at ways things could happen for the benefit of everyone.

I can't think of anything that was worth it (for everyone) that is easy.I think there's a bit of that, but it is legitimate to question as well.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I guess it’s about what gets the most recycling done?


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Surely the aim should be to find a solution to achieve the highest recycling rates possible, with the lowest carbon footprint?

Looks like we could learn a thing or two on recycling from Wales, as they have highest overall recycling rate in UK at 65% and are achieving almost 90% collection rates on glass without a DRS: https://www.britglass.org.uk/sites/default/files/British%20Glass%20Briefing%20Paper%20-%20DRS%20report%20%28FINAL%29.pdf

Hopefully a pause of some sort can be agreed to give space to work through some of the practicalities of the scheme, and genuine concerns from businesses. There's going to be a massive amount of education / awareness raising to do too. I've only had a quick glance at this since it hit the press earlier this week and it seems that glass bottles are in scope, but jam jars etc. would be collected with kerbside recycling as normal. Similarly cans and plastic juice bottles are in scope, but milk bottles aren't.

[danhibees1875]

I've been fairly unaware of the nuances of this scheme until now, arguable still - but I'm at least trying now.

What are the current recycling rates? I'm clearly quite naive in thinking they were quite high - my house recycling bin is rammed full every two weeks and can't think of many occasions where I wouldn't recycle a bottle/tin. :dunno: Maybe drinks consumed whilst out and about, but that's more down to the provision of recycling bins in public spaces than anything.

I don't fully understand why breweries etc are that concerned. Surely the scheme is for the retailer to administer and not for their concern? If they currently sell a 6-pack for £5 then they continue to do so but sainsburys also chuck in a £1.20 surcharge to the customer at the point of sale...

Final thought is how customers then get there money back. I'm imagining having to take a bag of bottles back out with me each time I do the weekly shop (not a huge endeavour really) and then getting a handful of 20p coins chucked at me. Hopefully there's a way to administer the amounts on to cards.

I'd agree that it seems well intended - even if I'm not currently aware of the necessity of it. A few tweaks/confirmations here and there and hopefully it's something that works out, certainly don't see why there's knicker twisting from UK Gov if they're likely to be introducing the same thing soon enough.

How many tins do I need to buy to offset the petrol cost of a drive to Berwick? :confused: :greengrin

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64622422

Slater admits she did not consult with any other country operating a similar scheme while attempting to get this botched attempt off the ground in Scotland.

Aside from the folly of trusting this numpty to do the job, Sturgeon continues to take a battering across the rest of the front pages.

[archie]

I've been fairly unaware of the nuances of this scheme until now, arguable still - but I'm at least trying now.

What are the current recycling rates? I'm clearly quite naive in thinking they were quite high - my house recycling bin is rammed full every two weeks and can't think of many occasions where I wouldn't recycle a bottle/tin. :dunno: Maybe drinks consumed whilst out and about, but that's more down to the provision of recycling bins in public spaces than anything.

I don't fully understand why breweries etc are that concerned. Surely the scheme is for the retailer to administer and not for their concern? If they currently sell a 6-pack for £5 then they continue to do so but sainsburys also chuck in a £1.20 surcharge to the customer at the point of sale...

Final thought is how customers then get there money back. I'm imagining having to take a bag of bottles back out with me each time I do the weekly shop (not a huge endeavour really) and then getting a handful of 20p coins chucked at me. Hopefully there's a way to administer the amounts on to cards.

I'd agree that it seems well intended - even if I'm not currently aware of the necessity of it. A few tweaks/confirmations here and there and hopefully it's something that works out, certainly don't see why there's knicker twisting from UK Gov if they're likely to be introducing the same thing soon enough.

How many tins do I need to buy to offset the petrol cost of a drive to Berwick? :confused: :greengrin
There are penalties for producers if the don't have 90% of their packaging recycled.

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64622422

Slater admits she did not consult with any other country operating a similar scheme while attempting to get this botched attempt off the ground in Scotland.

Aside from the folly of trusting this numpty to do the job, Sturgeon continues to take a battering across the rest of the front pages.

Yet we have people saying it works in country X or Y so why won't it work here. Well because the people responsible didn't even bother looking at the models elsewhere where it works. Basic basic stuff.

[danhibees1875]

There are penalties for producers if the don't have 90% of their packaging recycled.

Penalties for the producers?

That's a rogue one. Can't see the justification of that. :confused:

[archie]

Penalties for the producers?

That's a rogue one. Can't see the justification of that. :confused:

I think the long term aim could be to change packaging approaches?

[danhibees1875]

I think the long term aim could be to change packaging approaches?

Could they not just legislate for that? :greengrin

Cardboard cartons? Like the old school milk cartons, but with beer.

[archie]

Could they not just legislate for that? :greengrin

Cardboard cartons? Like the old school milk cartons, but with beer.

TBH I don't know. My initial thought is that would kill the sale of many drinks from outside Scotland, or at least those from smaller markets. Could you put prosecco in cardboard?

[LaMotta]

I've been fairly unaware of the nuances of this scheme until now, arguable still - but I'm at least trying now.

What are the current recycling rates? I'm clearly quite naive in thinking they were quite high - my house recycling bin is rammed full every two weeks and can't think of many occasions where I wouldn't recycle a bottle/tin. :dunno: Maybe drinks consumed whilst out and about, but that's more down to the provision of recycling bins in public spaces than anything.

I don't fully understand why breweries etc are that concerned. Surely the scheme is for the retailer to administer and not for their concern? If they currently sell a 6-pack for £5 then they continue to do so but sainsburys also chuck in a £1.20 surcharge to the customer at the point of sale...

Final thought is how customers then get there money back. I'm imagining having to take a bag of bottles back out with me each time I do the weekly shop (not a huge endeavour really) and then getting a handful of 20p coins chucked at me. Hopefully there's a way to administer the amounts on to cards.

I'd agree that it seems well intended - even if I'm not currently aware of the necessity of it. A few tweaks/confirmations here and there and hopefully it's something that works out, certainly don't see why there's knicker twisting from UK Gov if they're likely to be introducing the same thing soon enough.

How many tins do I need to buy to offset the petrol cost of a drive to Berwick? :confused: :greengrin

A major issue for breweries/distilleries/ other producers is admin and labelling products for different markets. Costs will be crippling to businesses who have to do different production runs(eg different barcode/labelling etc) just to have a product for the Scottish Market. We can expect to see reduced consumer choice as a result of that.

Small businesses will be harmed the most as large companies will have the ability to absorb costs and have people resource to take the time to undertake admin burden. So many smaller brewers are genuinely worried about the viabiity of their business.

On the consumer side it may be a mild inconvenience for some to have to pay extra up front for products, store containers in their home somewhere and then lug it all back to the shops, however for many this will be a considerable burden for a range of reasons. I think when consumers realise what is going to happen there will be further kick back.

The intentions of the scheme are noble of course and often Sweden is pointed as an exemplar of what can be achieved. But Sweden set their system up in 1984, when recycling was just starting to become more prevalent. We already have well established systems in place. There are so many problems with the scheme unfortuneately. Whilst some will be loving the problems due to their political affiliation, the reality is most of the dissent comes from genuine worry.

[He's here!]

A major issue for breweries/distilleries/ other producers is admin and labelling products for different markets. Costs will be crippling to businesses who have to do different production runs(eg different barcode/labelling etc) just to have a product for the Scottish Market. We can expect to see reduced consumer choice as a result of that.

Small businesses will be harmed the most as large companies will have the ability to absorb costs and have people resource to take the time to undertake admin burden. So many smaller brewers are genuinely worried about the viabiity of their business.

On the consumer side it may be a mild inconvenience for some to have to pay extra up front for products, store containers in their home somewhere and then lug it all back to the shops, however for many this will be a considerable burden for a range of reasons. I think when consumers realise what is going to happen there will be further kick back.

The intentions of the scheme are noble of course and often Sweden is pointed as an exemplar of what can be achieved. But Sweden set their system up in 1984, when recycling was just starting to become more prevalent. We already have well established systems in place. There are so many problems with the scheme unfortuneately. Whilst some will be loving the problems due to their political affiliation, the reality is most of the dissent comes from genuine worry.

You're spot on with much of what you say there, particularly when it comes to smaller producers. Folk underestimate the cost of production runs, whatever the product, and a small batch run to differentiate for Scotland will simply be unsustainable for some under the current proposals.

[Ozyhibby]

A major issue for breweries/distilleries/ other producers is admin and labelling products for different markets. Costs will be crippling to businesses who have to do different production runs(eg different barcode/labelling etc) just to have a product for the Scottish Market. We can expect to see reduced consumer choice as a result of that.

Small businesses will be harmed the most as large companies will have the ability to absorb costs and have people resource to take the time to undertake admin burden. So many smaller brewers are genuinely worried about the viabiity of their business.

On the consumer side it may be a mild inconvenience for some to have to pay extra up front for products, store containers in their home somewhere and then lug it all back to the shops, however for many this will be a considerable burden for a range of reasons. I think when consumers realise what is going to happen there will be further kick back.

The intentions of the scheme are noble of course and often Sweden is pointed as an exemplar of what can be achieved. But Sweden set their system up in 1984, when recycling was just starting to become more prevalent. We already have well established systems in place. There are so many problems with the scheme unfortuneately. Whilst some will be loving the problems due to their political affiliation, the reality is most of the dissent comes from genuine worry.

Are you saying Scotland just can’t do this? What is it about us that makes us different from Norway?
In Norway they recycles 92% of drinks containers, we are below 50%. What is it about Scotland that we can’t do this?

https://www.tomra.com/en/discover/reverse-vending/feature-articles/norway-deposit-return-scheme


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[LaMotta]

Are you saying Scotland just can’t do this? What is it about us that makes us different from Norway?
In Norway they recycles 92% of drinks containers, we are below 50%. What is it about Scotland that we can’t do this?

https://www.tomra.com/en/discover/reverse-vending/feature-articles/norway-deposit-return-scheme


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No, I'm saying its going to be incredibly difficult under its current proposed guise. And it will come with economic and social costs. There will always be an element of businesses hating legislative change and over predicting worst case doomsday scenarios, but the mood on this is particularly dark througout industry.

Norway has had DRS system in place since the 1970's and it has evolved succesfully since then. Having well established practices in place here will inevitably make it more challenging.

DRS is happening no doubt. Will it happen this August? Whatever they do now Scot Gov will be hammered, if they bash on they will get grief from business, if they delay further then doesnt look good either. There are serious concerns right at the top of Government about how things are panning out so I suspect we will see some changes to proposals soon...

[degenerated]

You're spot on with much of what you say there, particularly when it comes to smaller producers. Folk underestimate the cost of production runs, whatever the product, and a small batch run to differentiate for Scotland will simply be unsustainable for some under the current proposals.The labels will surely be different for export regardless.

[danhibees1875]

A major issue for breweries/distilleries/ other producers is admin and labelling products for different markets. Costs will be crippling to businesses who have to do different production runs(eg different barcode/labelling etc) just to have a product for the Scottish Market. We can expect to see reduced consumer choice as a result of that.

Small businesses will be harmed the most as large companies will have the ability to absorb costs and have people resource to take the time to undertake admin burden. So many smaller brewers are genuinely worried about the viabiity of their business.

On the consumer side it may be a mild inconvenience for some to have to pay extra up front for products, store containers in their home somewhere and then lug it all back to the shops, however for many this will be a considerable burden for a range of reasons. I think when consumers realise what is going to happen there will be further kick back.

The intentions of the scheme are noble of course and often Sweden is pointed as an exemplar of what can be achieved. But Sweden set their system up in 1984, when recycling was just starting to become more prevalent. We already have well established systems in place. There are so many problems with the scheme unfortuneately. Whilst some will be loving the problems due to their political affiliation, the reality is most of the dissent comes from genuine worry.

Thanks!

I still don't understand why it's on the producer though. These things should surely be implemented and administered by the retailer? A flaw, or something I'm misunderstanding, in the policy if that's not the case I would think.

I feel this whole thing should be entirely workable without impacting suppliers.

Agreed re consumers ("us") - a lot easier for some than it will be for others. Ultimately though, I think the majority of people should be able to bring that chore into their daily lives and doing so is just something we'll all need to grin and bear - I'm sure there will be more things, likely tougher pills to swallow, down the line. I accept it's easier for me to say being on the side of people who see it as likely being minimal burden!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Whatever they do now Scot Gov will be hammered, if they bash on they will get grief from business, if they delay further then doesnt look good either.

That's government. There are no policies that please everybody. They'll be hammered on this, just as they have been on any other policy legislation. All media focus will be on the hammering, while disregarding the praise from those who approve of it. But that's been the case for the SNP since they came to government in 2007 and they've managed to remain firmly in place despite this.

[He's here!]

The labels will surely be different for export regardless.

But if there's a Scotland-only packaging/labelling change required (to differentiate from UK-wide) as well as the logistics involved in factoring in the costs incumbent on them to comply with the Scottish initiative it will see some simply not bother as the overheads will wipe out any profits. As someone has posted earlier some craft brewers have already withdrawn their Scottish distribution.

[degenerated]

But if there's a Scotland-only packaging/labelling change required (to differentiate from UK-wide) as well as the logistics involved in factoring in the costs incumbent on them to comply with the Scottish initiative it will see some simply not bother as the overheads will wipe out any profits. As someone has posted earlier some craft brewers have already withdrawn their Scottish distribution.Why does it have to be different? Packaging/labelling within the UK can have some text added to it to tell you that in Scotland it falls under whatever legislation. Hardly reinventing the wheel, no?

[Ozyhibby]

But if there's a Scotland-only packaging/labelling change required (to differentiate from UK-wide) as well as the logistics involved in factoring in the costs incumbent on them to comply with the Scottish initiative it will see some simply not bother as the overheads will wipe out any profits. As someone has posted earlier some craft brewers have already withdrawn their Scottish distribution.

Is that what happens in Norway?


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[LaMotta]

That's government. There are no policies that please everybody. They'll be hammered on this, just as they have been on any other policy legislation. All media focus will be on the hammering, while disregarding the praise from those who approve of it. But that's been the case for the SNP since they came to government in 2007 and they've managed to remain firmly in place despite this.

Agree completely, but on DRS the criticism is far more robust, including from those usually aligned with SG on matters.

[He's here!]

Are you saying Scotland just can’t do this? What is it about us that makes us different from Norway?
In Norway they recycles 92% of drinks containers, we are below 50%. What is it about Scotland that we can’t do this?

https://www.tomra.com/en/discover/reverse-vending/feature-articles/norway-deposit-return-scheme


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It's the current proposals for implementing the scheme that have been shown to be ill thought-out. Similar to the fiasco over gender reforms where opposition was not 'anti-trans', few here will be 'against' improved recycling proposals. What the SG has come up with in both cases currently causes more problems than it solves.

[LaMotta]

Why does it have to be different? Packaging/labelling within the UK can have some text added to it to tell you that in Scotland it falls under whatever legislation. Hardly reinventing the wheel, no?

There is a need for different barcodes in Scotland so bottles/cans can be identified by the Reverse Vending Machines.

[Kato]

Glad to see so many people worried about businesses possibly failing because of packaging.

I'm sure if this is sorted the country will put all its troubles behind it and go from strength to strength.

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[James310]

“It would not be relevant for the review process to speak to those operating DRS schemes in other countries.” - Lorna Slater

[LaMotta]

Thanks!

I still don't understand why it's on the producer though. These things should surely be implemented and administered by the retailer? A flaw, or something I'm misunderstanding, in the policy if that's not the case I would think.

I feel this whole thing should be entirely workable without impacting suppliers.

Agreed re consumers ("us") - a lot easier for some than it will be for others. Ultimately though, I think the majority of people should be able to bring that chore into their daily lives and doing so is just something we'll all need to grin and bear - I'm sure there will be more things, likely tougher pills to swallow, down the line. I accept it's easier for me to say being on the side of people who see it as likely being minimal burden!

Its part of an "Extended Producer Responsibility" model where those who are making the product take more resonsibillity for the impact their products are having on the environment. The idea is that the scheme should be as close to Cost Neutral as possible, as it is in Norway. The problem is it isn't close enough to cost neutral as is being proposed.

[LaMotta]

Glad to see so many people worried about businesses possibly failing because of packaging.

I'm sure if this is sorted the country will put all its troubles behind it and go from strength to strength.

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Scot Gov hierarchy is worried about it, as it should be.

[Smartie]

Glad to see so many people worried about businesses possibly failing because of packaging.

I'm sure if this is sorted the country will put all its troubles behind it and go from strength to strength.

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It appears that the strongest argument in favour of the union these days is a series of dead cats.

[GlesgaeHibby]

There is a need for different barcodes in Scotland so bottles/cans can be identified by the Reverse Vending Machines.

Businesses like the Harris distillery must be quite worried about being fined, given that their gin bottles are often collected or re-purposed (or upcycled) as table decorations, lamps etc. due to the desirable bottle design. Plenty folk selling these on eBay just now: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=harris+gin+bottles&_sacat=0

[Ozyhibby]

Businesses like the Harris distillery must be quite worried about being fined, given that their gin bottles are often collected or re-purposed (or upcycled) as table decorations, lamps etc. due to the desirable bottle design. Plenty folk selling these on eBay just now: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=harris+gin+bottles&_sacat=0

Let’s cancel the whole scheme then.


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[danhibees1875]

Its part of an "Extended Producer Responsibility" model where those who are making the product take more resonsibillity for the impact their products are having on the environment. The idea is that the scheme should be as close to Cost Neutral as possible, as it is in Norway. The problem is it isn't close enough to cost neutral as is being proposed.

:aok:

[danhibees1875]

Let’s cancel the whole scheme then.


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He makes a fair point if there's a responsibility on the supplier to somehow ensure their products are recycled post-use though.

[Ozyhibby]

He makes a fair point if there's a responsibility on the supplier to somehow ensure their products are recycled post-use though.

Maybe ornate bottling isn’t the best use of the planets resources though?


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[Jack]

Should this current debate not be on another thread called Useless Greens destroying the planet, or similar?

[danhibees1875]

Maybe ornate bottling isn’t the best use of the planets resources though?


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That's better than your original flippant response at least. :greengrin

I would have thought that using bottles for a secondary purpose (table decorations at weddings etc) would have been a positive environmental use. :dunno:

I would think Harris might not be too concerned as they'd hope that ~eventually~ their bottles would get recycled. Unless they're shipped abroad... :hmmm:

[hibsbollah]

Glad to see so many people worried about businesses possibly failing because of packaging.

I'm sure if this is sorted the country will put all its troubles behind it and go from strength to strength.

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snort:faf:

[LaMotta]

snort:faf:

I think a few on this thread are underestimating the importance of Scotland getting DRS right.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

Disgraceful.


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[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

Disgraceful.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey are doing it deliberately.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Here is a post from my local refill shop.

It took a while to get some figures together - there are lots of products at Handam available for refills in your own containers!!
We wanted to share some data with you!
In 2022 together we saved from landfill 2624 egg boxes! (since we opened we never provided brand-new boxes - all of them are donated and reused!)

2581 bottles of milk were delivered, used and returned to dairy!

1040 bottles of various cleaning products were refilled (average size of 750ml) which is whooping 1387 litres of cleaning products!! And you should know we are selling @thebiodcompany who provide a circular system for their big containers!!!

It is amazing to see so many of you bringing bottles, boxes, bags, and Tupperware to fill up with our products. And even better to see the same containers being reused so many times!


All without the need for a 20p deposit!!! Some people care about the environment while others throw things out to landfill.

[Callum_62]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64609550

Not before time. Hopefully it is an actual increase and not a rearranging of the furniture.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642699

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[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642699

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It’s amazing how much money employers can find that didn’t exist before workers are forced in to extended strike action.

Well done to the Unions, hope a decent deal is coming for the teachers. Join a Union!

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s amazing how much money employers can find that didn’t exist before workers are forced in to extended strike action.

Well done to the Unions, hope a decent deal is coming for the teachers. Join a Union!

All the people that said on here to me and where does the government find the money from, well they have..

Although we'll see as similar was said before the nurses rejected. Fingers crossed for a deal but they are still getting shafted tbh

[J-C]

It’s amazing how much money employers can find that didn’t exist before workers are forced in to extended strike action.

Well done to the Unions, hope a decent deal is coming for the teachers. Join a Union!

They take it from elsewhere, so someone will lose out.

[Stairway 2 7]

They take it from elsewhere, so someone will lose out.

That's how a budget works. Don't be against the side of the worker that's what they want. Next its the benefits rise scot gov gave this year that was great is taking money from somewhere else ect ect

[H18 SFR]

It’s amazing how much money employers can find that didn’t exist before workers are forced in to extended strike action.

Well done to the Unions, hope a decent deal is coming for the teachers. Join a Union!

11.83% two year deal officially offered.

Will be interesting to see if it’s accepted.

[He's here!]

11.83% two year deal officially offered.

Will be interesting to see if it’s accepted.

That's the way Somerville is spinning it but it actually falls well short of what's being sought so no guarantee it will be accepted, especially as she has seen fit to release the details to the media before the unions. That's shabby stuff.

Still, good to see they've 'found' £156m which they claimed didn't exist. Hopefully some sort of compromise can be struck now that the SG have realised they need to stem the flow of negative headlines.

[James310]

That's the way Somerville is spinning it but it actually falls well short of what's being sought so no guarantee it will be accepted, especially as she has seen fit to release the details to the media before the unions. That's shabby stuff.

Still, good to see they've 'found' £156m which they claimed didn't exist. Hopefully some sort of compromise can be struck now that the SG have realised they need to stem the flow of negative headlines.

Peter Murrell apparently lent them it, but nobody remembers.

[Kato]

That's the way Somerville is spinning it but it actually falls well short of what's being sought so no guarantee it will be accepted, especially as she has seen fit to release the details to the media before the unions. That's shabby stuff.

Still, good to see they've 'found' £156m which they claimed didn't exist. Hopefully some sort of compromise can be struck now that the SG have realised they need to stem the flow of negative headlines.How much is that in cream eggs?

https://twitter.com/BladeoftheS/status/1625593713345851392?t=Y_uIvkr_9uzHE7izzDfC6A&s=19

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[Callum_62]

That's the way Somerville is spinning it but it actually falls well short of what's being sought so no guarantee it will be accepted, especially as she has seen fit to release the details to the media before the unions. That's shabby stuff.

Still, good to see they've 'found' £156m which they claimed didn't exist. Hopefully some sort of compromise can be struck now that the SG have realised they need to stem the flow of negative headlines.The 6 percent for April 22-23 is basically the 5 percent they striked over plus the money lost on strike days

5.5 percent next year is probably acceptable but will still be a reasonable real terms pay cut

Teachers might have fatigue and just take it but I wouldn't based on the 22-23 offer

The "gesture of goodwill" but below is a bit rich though

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230215/d4e39cb5847d9e3e5b36c6a2278f8bee.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/deposit-return-scheme-scotland-11-things-that-change-under-scotlands-new-system-4027430

Bit more info on deposit return scheme.


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[James310]

House party's will be interesting, bringing your 12 pack of beer and at the end of the night trying to collect your empties to get your £2.40 back. I am guessing people will be too ****** to bother and the host will make a nice little profit.

[Stairway 2 7]

Cross party msps including 2 from snp send a letter asking for it to be delayed past August. Circularity Scotland who's running it yesterday removed all mention of the August date from the website.

It's clearly going to get delayed so they should just do it now and the story will fade until its ready. Lorna Slater says its definitely going ahead in her absolutely awful interview on Sunday though. I really want snp to get a majority so they can kick out they nut jobs. How Lorna slater and Maggie Chapman can have any influence when they are clearly half daft.

[Mon Dieu4]

With the apparent clampdown on driving due to net zero then are they expecting people to walk or take public transport to the supermarket with all their empties to return them?

My local supermarket is a 10 minute walk, I don't drive, no danger am I holding on to all my empties then once a week walking them back to the supermarket, they are going in the bin as normal

[Ozyhibby]

With the apparent clampdown on driving due to net zero then are they expecting people to walk or take public transport to the supermarket with all their empties to return them?

My local supermarket is a 10 minute walk, I don't drive, no danger am I holding on to all my empties then once a week walking them back to the supermarket, they are going in the bin as normal

That’s the spirit.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Wonder if they could have electric trucks going round the streets where you could deposit and get a print out. There's going to be a lot of staff that collect from kerbside and recycling bins getting their books, if not found new jobs

[Mon Dieu4]

That’s the spirit.[emoji106]


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Thanks, I'm not against it in theory, Barr's and other companies made it work for years and years but that was because it was convenient, you could take them back to any shop, unless they make it easy for people then I feel lots will fall into the same category as me

[OldEast]

Thanks, I'm not against it in theory, Barr's and other companies made it work for years and years but that was because it was convenient, you could take them back to any shop, unless they make it easy for people then I feel lots will fall into the same category as me

Of course they will. Thinking otherwise is naive

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think it will matter if they go in the general waste bins. They are profitable enough per can that there will definitely be squads of "entrepreneurs" that will go round general waste bins collecting them. Same result in the end in that I'm sure recycling will go up, which is what we want

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a bit like the smoking ban. 6 months out from its implementation and all sorts of scenarios were being put forward by industry. In the end, it all worked well and nobody nowadays would go back to the way it was before.
When govts sign up to things like net zero at these big climate conferences it’s not enough just to do the signature. They are signing up to make actual changes to the way we operate society. This is part of that. No point in saying we want a greener planet and then complaining about every single step we have to take to get there. Will it work perfectly on day one? I very much doubt it but we will get there just because we have no other choice. These are legal commitments we signed up to.


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[He's here!]

Cross party msps including 2 from snp send a letter asking for it to be delayed past August. Circularity Scotland who's running it yesterday removed all mention of the August date from the website.

It's clearly going to get delayed so they should just do it now and the story will fade until its ready. Lorna Slater says its definitely going ahead in her absolutely awful interview on Sunday though. I really want snp to get a majority so they can kick out they nut jobs. How Lorna slater and Maggie Chapman can have any influence when they are clearly half daft.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642420

She understandably doesn't want to lose more face than she already has by a further delay but better that than insist glibly on a 'full steam ahead' approach which looks likely to cause more initial problems than necessary.

Chapman...jeez, yes she's arguably even more of a daftie than Slater.

[danhibees1875]

With the apparent clampdown on driving due to net zero then are they expecting people to walk or take public transport to the supermarket with all their empties to return them?

My local supermarket is a 10 minute walk, I don't drive, no danger am I holding on to all my empties then once a week walking them back to the supermarket, they are going in the bin as normal

I don't mean this to sound flippant, and there are many logistical issues to ponder over with this but presumably you carry those same cans initially for those 10 minutes to your house - when they are filled with liquid and heavier.

I think it would just become habitual that as part of going to the shop you take and return a bag full of empties.

My problem will be that I squish my cans once I'm finished with them (to show off how strong and masculine I am) - which I assume will make bar codes unreadable.

Hopefully the scanning system is a quick and efficient one too - can't see people standing in a queue outside the shops when it's cold/wet for a couple ££. A quick-use bin to the side where the products are scanned by someone else and proceeds go to charity would be a nice addition to the infrastructure.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64642420

She understandably doesn't want to lose more face than she already has by a further delay but better that than insist glibly on a 'full steam ahead' approach which looks likely to cause more initial problems than necessary.

Chapman...jeez, yes she's arguably even more of a daftie than Slater.

I’m all for a delay if it needs it but I haven’t seen any reason put forward as to why it’s needed other than industry bleating it will be difficult?


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[marinello59]

It’s a bit like the smoking ban. 6 months out from its implementation and all sorts of scenarios were being put forward by industry. In the end, it all worked well and nobody nowadays would go back to the way it was before.
When govts sign up to things like net zero at these big climate conferences it’s not enough just to do the signature. They are signing up to make actual changes to the way we operate society. This is part of that. No point in saying we want a greener planet and then complaining about every single step we have to take to get there. Will it work perfectly on day one? I very much doubt it but we will get there just because we have no other choice. These are legal commitments we signed up to.


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That’s a great comparison. And a good post.

[Mon Dieu4]

I don't mean this to sound flippant, and there are many logistical issues to ponder over with this but presumably you carry those same cans initially for those 10 minutes to your house - when they are filled with liquid and heavier.

I think it would just become habitual that as part of going to the shop you take and return a bag full of empties.

My problem will be that I squish my cans once I'm finished with them (to show off how strong and masculine I am) - which I assume will make bar codes unreadable.

Hopefully the scanning system is a quick and efficient one too - can't see people standing in a queue outside the shops when it's cold/wet for a couple ££. A quick-use bin to the side where the products are scanned by someone else and proceeds go to charity would be a nice addition to the infrastructure.

Its not being flippant, maybe I'm just not clued up on all the proposals or I'm being dense here but I already use the relevant recycling bins for all my rubbish and take bottles round to the bottle bank round the corner from me, once it leaves my required bin then they should be sent to the relevant places for recycling and sorting?

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m all for a delay if it needs it but I haven’t seen any reason put forward as to why it’s needed other than industry bleating it will be difficult?


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You mustn't have looked mate. I'm all for it and think it will be great. Although it's becoming clear it needs a delay from all sectors including the recyclers. I am probably against glass collection. I read the 5 countries with the highest % of glass recycling in Europe do it via kerbside and bins. It seems to work great I also worry about the jobs of the teams collecting, plus it must be better for the environment 1 crew doing a journey collecting rather than each house travelling

[danhibees1875]

Its not being flippant, maybe I'm just not clued up on all the proposals or I'm being dense here but I already use the relevant recycling bins for all my rubbish and take bottles round to the bottle bank round the corner from me, once it leaves my required bin then they should be sent to the relevant places for recycling and sorting?

I'm in the same boat as you, and that's what I do too.

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that what we're doing is fine. Presumably there's a number of people who don't do that though- either at home, or when having a bottle/can of juice whilst out walking (or a crate of beers at the meadows) that subsequently don't recycle because they're not at home to do so.

I think these measures are to combat against that and people, like you and I, are just being swept along too because there's no way to only target those who aren't recycling. Unfortunately the best method to gain compliance is through financial punishment.

Although there's maybe also an argument that this form of recycling is "better" because the packaging is separated out more compared to all recyclables (excl glass) being lumped together? I think I read that.

Either way, I think both situations could have been addressed, or began to be addressed initially as a stepping stone, with the provision of more bins both at home and on the streets/at parks.

[Ozyhibby]

Its not being flippant, maybe I'm just not clued up on all the proposals or I'm being dense here but I already use the relevant recycling bins for all my rubbish and take bottles round to the bottle bank round the corner from me, once it leaves my required bin then they should be sent to the relevant places for recycling and sorting?

That system only recycles about 50% of all containers where as this system as implemented in other European countries recycles over 90%.


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[danhibees1875]

You mustn't have looked mate. I'm all for it and think it will be great. Although it's becoming clear it needs a delay from all sectors including the recyclers. I am probably against glass collection. I read the 5 countries with the highest % of glass recycling in Europe do it via kerbside and bins. It seems to work great I also worry about the jobs of the teams collecting, plus it must be better for the environment 1 crew doing a journey collecting rather than each house travelling

I think the intention would be that there wouldn't be any additional travelling though. You'd never go to only do your recycling. It would just be what you did when on your usual travel to the shops.

I guess that relies on a "normal" shopping pattern actually. If you just pick up some shopping after work every night en route home then it's going to be more of an inconvenience.