SNP are lying b******s as well ! [Archive] - Page 12

Santa Cruz

12-12-2022, 11:32 PM

Unison seem quite happy with the Scottish govt on Peston tonight?

https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1602439489644744704?s=46&t=ivtTUq7j_sg61SQtp76qtA

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That's the national Unison Gen Sec. @HH' s post is quoting the position from the Scottish health branch of Unison. She is right though, any reasonable Gov would negotiate with Unions to reach a compromise and avert industrial action. Would hope the SG are making the same progress with the Teachers unions. Unison may be the largest national public sector union but in terms of workforce membership the EIS has the largest % of members afaik, or at least used to, this might have changed.

He's here!

13-12-2022, 07:00 AM

That's the national Unison Gen Sec. @HH' s post is quoting the position from the Scottish health branch of Unison. She is right though, any reasonable Gov would negotiate with Unions to reach a compromise and avert industrial action. Would hope the SG are making the same progress with the Teachers unions. Unison may be the largest national public sector union but in terms of workforce membership the EIS has the largest % of members afaik, or at least used to, this might have changed.

EIS still carries immense clout and has left many a government floundering, not just the SNP. This is the first time we've seen teachers striking in Scotland for 40 years though. SG will need to work harder to avert the barrage of strikes scheduled for January but the anger which accompanied the instant rejection of the most recent pay offers underlines how little respect they have for Somerville's capabilities. Hard to imagine she could have been less impressive than Swinney but she's making a good stab at it.

Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 07:22 AM

EIS still carries immense clout and has left many a government floundering, not just the SNP. This is the first time we've seen teachers striking in Scotland for 40 years though. SG will need to work harder to avert the barrage of strikes scheduled for January but the anger which accompanied the instant rejection of the most recent pay offers underlines how little respect they have for Somerville's capabilities. Hard to imagine she could have been less impressive than Swinney but she's making a good stab at it.

Try contain your excitement just a little bit.

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Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 07:26 AM

If the army are going to be performing the role of strike breakers in the English NHS, what budget does that come from? The health or defence budget?

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degenerated

13-12-2022, 08:26 AM

Try contain your excitement just a little bit.

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JeMeSouviens

13-12-2022, 08:45 AM

That's the national Unison Gen Sec. @HH' s post is quoting the position from the Scottish health branch of Unison. She is right though, any reasonable Gov would negotiate with Unions to reach a compromise and avert industrial action. Would hope the SG are making the same progress with the Teachers unions. Unison may be the largest national public sector union but in terms of workforce membership the EIS has the largest % of members afaik, or at least used to, this might have changed.

I have a pal who's an EIS rep. They have about 85% of teachers in Scotland. He's not a happy chappy (and is an Indy supporter, so no axe to grind there). They took 2.2% last year with promises of a much more substantial rise this year and a further 90 min/week reduction in class contact time. SG dragging its feet big time on both.

Santa Cruz

13-12-2022, 09:03 AM

I have a pal who's an EIS rep. They have about 85% of teachers in Scotland. He's not a happy chappy (and is an Indy supporter, so no axe to grind there). They took 2.2% last year with promises of a much more substantial rise this year and a further 90 min/week reduction in class contact time. SG dragging its feet big time on both.

The 85% figure highlights the power the EIS holds. The bigger the membership the more cards a Union holds v any Gov when it comes to negotiations. Probs the reason no compromise has been reached yet. The EIS will now in my view not settle for anything less than the NHS Union members accepted yesterday. That then causes further division within workforces, as the school support staff did not receive the same deal. It really would be simpler to have one pay increase award applied to all public sector workers, it would be fairer and take away division within workforces which leads to a them v us atmosphere amongst professional/non-professional staff.

Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 09:07 AM

https://twitter.com/bbcjamescook/status/1602602106283859974?s=46&t=HL_A3GC2xzKSvxOHKfX_HQ

Shows the importance of yesterday’s deal. We need to get the NHS back up to speed.

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greenginger

13-12-2022, 09:46 AM

If the army are going to be performing the role of strike breakers in the English NHS, what budget does that come from? The health or defence budget?

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will there be any extra costs in the military assisting the NHS ? Don’t think they’ll get a pay rise or overtime.

grunt

13-12-2022, 10:30 AM

They took 2.2% last year with promises of a much more substantial rise this year and a further 90 min/week reduction in class contact time. SG dragging its feet big time on both.
That seems to be a significant reduction in contact time. Don’t they want to spend time in the classroom?

Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 10:31 AM

will there be any extra costs in the military assisting the NHS ? Don’t think they’ll get a pay rise or overtime.

They are not doing what Scottish taxpayers pay them to do though are they? If the army is to become part of health care provision in England then surely there should be Barnett consequentials for Scotland?

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archie

13-12-2022, 10:43 AM

They are not doing what Scottish taxpayers pay them to do though are they? If the army is to become part of health care provision in England then surely there should be Barnett consequentials for Scotland?

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It's a budget tool, not a current account. Are you seriously suggesting that a situation, say, where the army was called into help search for a missing child in England there should be a funding transfer to Scotland? Or vice versa?

Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 10:52 AM

It's a budget tool, not a current account. Are you seriously suggesting that a situation, say, where the army was called into help search for a missing child in England there should be a funding transfer to Scotland? Or vice versa?

Absolutely not but this is planned use of the army in industrial relations. That’s not the same as searching for missing kids.

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Berwickhibby

13-12-2022, 10:52 AM

will there be any extra costs in the military assisting the NHS ? Don’t think they’ll get a pay rise or overtime.

Obviously there will be some added costs for redeployment, accommodation, feeding etc but it will be minimal compared to agency workers.

archie

13-12-2022, 11:09 AM

Absolutely not but this is planned use of the army in industrial relations. That’s not the same as searching for missing kids.

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What's the difference?

marinello59

13-12-2022, 12:56 PM

Absolutely a relief to see the threat of ambulance strikes withdrawn, but there's no credit being handed to the SG:

Unison’s health committee chair Wilma Brown said her union’s vote was “not a win for the Government – it is a warning”.

“It was far from a unanimous decision and many of the NHS professional grades feel badly let down,” she said. “Almost half of Unison NHS staff voted to reject this latest pay offer, and many who did vote to accept, did so reluctantly.”

Scotland strikes: Ambulance staff and some NHS workers call off action as unions accept Scottish Government pay deal | The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-strikes-ambulance-staff-and-some-nhs-workers-call-off-action-as-unions-accept-scottish-government-pay-deal-3951077)

I wouldn’t be giving credit to any employer no matter who they are who let their workers down so badly they were forced to take strike action. This has been a warning.

Ozyhibby

13-12-2022, 01:02 PM

https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1602655420803432448?s=46&t=HL_A3GC2xzKSvxOHKfX_HQ

What is different?

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He's here!

13-12-2022, 02:04 PM

Try contain your excitement just a little bit.

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You think I want to see ongoing school closures? Teachers certainly don't - and speaking personally when you work closely with ASN kids on a daily basis you see the impact that a lack of structure, even for a couple of days, can have on them. The EIS are correct to force the SG's hand on this. As has been pointed out by others on this thread there's been a trail of broken promises which have brought things to this sorry pass.

grunt

13-12-2022, 02:08 PM

You think I want to see ongoing school closures? Teachers certainly don't - and speaking personally when you work closely with ASN kids on a daily basis you see the impact that a lack of structure, even for a couple of days, can have on them. The EIS are correct to force the SG's hand on this.

You explain this very eloquently, and thank you for helping these kids out. But one of the demands of the EIS noted above was a significant reduction in contact time. I'm not being awkward here, but I don't understand the call for less contact time.

JeMeSouviens

13-12-2022, 02:18 PM

You explain this very eloquently, and thank you for helping these kids out. But one of the demands of the EIS noted above was a significant reduction in contact time. I'm not being awkward here, but I don't understand the call for less contact time.

Afaik it's just to allow them to get the other stuff they have to do: planning, reports, marking, etc. done within their contracted hours.

Santa Cruz

13-12-2022, 02:21 PM

Afaik it's just to allow them to get the other stuff they have to do: planning, reports, marking, etc. done within their contracted hours.

Still take plenty home to work on unpaid though. @HH will be able to answer, am I right in saying the lesser paid PSA's don't get the same non-contact time but do the bulk of one to one learning and support with ASN pupils, or have I picked this up wrong?

He's here!

13-12-2022, 04:38 PM

Afaik it's just to allow them to get the other stuff they have to do: planning, reports, marking, etc. done within their contracted hours.

Yes, it's easy to imagine teachers 'just' teach when in fact they have for far too long been 'time poor' (compared to numerous other countries) when it comes to finding space to 'plan, prepare, mark and correct' within their contracted hours. Within primary schools in Edinburgh, for example, the gravitation towards play-based learning entails (ideally) a weekly update/evolution of the play zones, which is a significant extra layer of responsibility. The SG proposal was (I think) for teachers to have 90 minutes per week non-contact time to allow them to make headway with lesson planning etc rather than take a stack of work home with them. As far as I'm aware this has not yet been rolled out effectively despite assurances the capacity and resources were in place for it, hence one of the reasons the EIS are fed up.

He's here!

13-12-2022, 04:49 PM

Still take plenty home to work on unpaid though. @HH will be able to answer, am I right in saying the lesser paid PSA's don't get the same non-contact time but do the bulk of one to one learning and support with ASN pupils, or have I picked this up wrong?

The (chronically underpaid) PSA's lot can be variable depending on the school or their relationship with a teacher. Some schools are good at making time for additional training and some teachers utilise a PSA to maximum effect by creating a true team environment. As you say, though, it can too often be the case that they are seen as a handy way to offload disruptive kids or those with ASN. I've mentioned it earlier in the thread but the SG's 'presumption of mainstream' approach plays a significant part in this IMHO as we have seen a big increase in children attending mainstream schools who would be unlikely to have previously done so. Another well-intentioned (or, if you're of a cynical bent, cost-cutting) initiative for which the resources simply aren't strong enough.

James310

13-12-2022, 10:49 PM

He's here!

14-12-2022, 06:48 AM

http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Loans/AL0559123

A bit odd? The CEO of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeons husband Peter Murrell, personally lends the SNP party over £100K.

Do CEOs normally lend money to their employer. Normally the other way round isn't it?

Nothing to see I assume.

An interest-free loan of £107,620...seems a very specific sum.

Who knows? Has the £600k independence war chest fund 'woven through' the accounts needed a top-up? I doubt 'sleekit' Murrell would be forthcoming with an explanation. IIRC the last time anyone asked to see the books he made it so awkward half the finance committee resigned.

James310

14-12-2022, 06:52 AM

An interest-free loan of £107,620...seems a very specific sum.

Who knows? Has the £600k independence war 'woven through' the accounts needed a top-up? I doubt 'sleekit' Murrell would be forthcoming with an explanation. IIRC the last time anyone asked to see the books he made it so awkward half the finance committee resigned.

The police investigation remains ongoing despite being started in 2021.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-donations-probe-police-branchform-26967273

ronaldo7

14-12-2022, 08:09 AM

An interest-free loan of £107,620...seems a very specific sum.

Who knows? Has the £600k independence war 'woven through' the accounts needed a top-up? I doubt 'sleekit' Murrell would be forthcoming with an explanation. IIRC the last time anyone asked to see the books he made it so awkward half the finance committee resigned.

0762 he's a Hibby after all. I think he's also donated £1875 some time ago. ⏰

grunt

14-12-2022, 08:22 AM

A bit odd? The CEO of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeons husband Peter Murrell, personally lends the SNP party over £100K. Do CEOs normally lend money to their employer. Normally the other way round isn't it?

Nothing to see I assume.

An interest-free loan of £107,620...seems a very specific sum.
Desperate.

I wonder whose accounts you'll read this in ...

"During the year, the immediate parent company xxx, paid the company a total of £125,457 (2020; £Nil)."

CropleyWasGod

14-12-2022, 08:53 AM

marinello59

14-12-2022, 10:05 AM

CEOs and directors lending to their employers is actually very common. For many organisations, it can be their only or main source of finance.

Surely not that common for a political party with as many members as the SNP? Though I suppose it is the family business in a way. :greengrin

Ozyhibby

14-12-2022, 10:11 AM

It’s a clear sign that Murrel doesn’t know how UK politics works. Your supposed to be filling your own pockets, not putting your own money in. This is the beginning of the end for Sturgeon.

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grunt

14-12-2022, 10:17 AM

Surely not that common for a political party with as many members as the SNP?
You've rather narrowed the search criteria there.

marinello59

14-12-2022, 10:25 AM

You've rather narrowed the search criteria there.

Possibly.:greengrin

He's here!

14-12-2022, 01:50 PM

Sturgeon's husband in row over 'murky' £100,000 loan to SNP | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23190861.sturgeons-husband-row-murky-100-000-loan-snp/)

Ozyhibby

14-12-2022, 01:59 PM

Sturgeon's husband in row over 'murky' £100,000 loan to SNP | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23190861.sturgeons-husband-row-murky-100-000-loan-snp/)

Impressive amount of words in that article without a single allegation?

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He's here!

14-12-2022, 02:03 PM

I have a pal who's an EIS rep. They have about 85% of teachers in Scotland. He's not a happy chappy (and is an Indy supporter, so no axe to grind there). They took 2.2% last year with promises of a much more substantial rise this year and a further 90 min/week reduction in class contact time. SG dragging its feet big time on both.

Meanwhile, the literacy attainment gap reaches record levels:

Nicola Sturgeon ‘has flunked education gap pledge’ | Scotland | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-has-flunked-education-gap-pledge-25fv0lg7q)

I can only read the first few pars of the Times story due to the paywall, but the Record goes into more detail:

Scotland's gap between richest and poorest pupils remains above pre-pandemic levels - Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/attainment-gap-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-28721293)

Somerville's attempts to put a positive spin on this are pretty lame. She seems well out of her depth.

He's here!

14-12-2022, 02:07 PM

And of course it would be a strange day indeed in Scotland if there wasn't fresh ferry woe:

'A joke of a service': Fury as Uist ferry remains sidelined | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/23190232.a-joke-service-fury-uist-ferry-remains-sidelined/)

grunt

14-12-2022, 02:27 PM

Impressive amount of words in that article without a single allegation?
Ironic to see the Scottish Tories complaining about "murky" funding of political parties when they refused to release the official report into Russian donations to the Tory party.

grunt

14-12-2022, 02:28 PM

Kato

14-12-2022, 02:52 PM

"Fury" as one guy complains to the Herald.I'd you believe the right wing media people are always in a fury, "blasting" at people (whatever that means) and usually a tiny baby step from incandescence. Never about Torys theiving though, never ever.

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Moulin Yarns

14-12-2022, 03:26 PM

"Fury" as one guy complains to the Herald.

I'm pretty sure there are still 2 ferries and flights to the uists. Oban to barra and a short hop to eriskay or Uig to Lochmaddy, plus flights to benbecula. They aren't cut off.

JimBHibees

14-12-2022, 03:29 PM

Ironic to see the Scottish Tories complaining about "murky" funding of political parties when they refused to release the official report into Russian donations to the Tory party.

Yep bold Boris and his visits to his mates mansion the ex KGB operative while Foreign secretary without security detail wtaf

J-C

14-12-2022, 03:31 PM

I'm pretty sure there are still 2 ferries and flights to the uists. Oban to barra and a short hop to eriskay or Uig to Lochmaddy, plus flights to benbecula. They aren't cut off.

SShhh! you'll spoil all the unionist guys glee at right wing press anti SNP agendas. :greengrin

He's here!

14-12-2022, 04:20 PM

Ironic to see the Scottish Tories complaining about "murky" funding of political parties when they refused to release the official report into Russian donations to the Tory party.

I see the original source of the story is Stuart Campbell of Wings Over Scotland.

One thing seems clear. Murrell can't be short of cash.

grunt

14-12-2022, 04:24 PM

One thing seems clear. Murrell can't be short of cash.
Desperate.

Berwickhibby

14-12-2022, 04:29 PM

I see the original source of the story is Stuart Campbell of Wings Over Scotland.

One thing seems clear. Murrell can't be short of cash.

Well, if it’s from the self proclaimed Rev from Wings over Bath …it must be True 🙄 another class one pr1ck

degenerated

14-12-2022, 04:34 PM

Meanwhile, the literacy attainment gap reaches record levels:

Nicola Sturgeon ‘has flunked education gap pledge’ | Scotland | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-has-flunked-education-gap-pledge-25fv0lg7q)

I can only read the first few pars of the Times story due to the paywall, but the Record goes into more detail:

Scotland's gap between richest and poorest pupils remains above pre-pandemic levels - Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/attainment-gap-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-28721293)

Somerville's attempts to put a positive spin on this are pretty lame. She seems well out of her depth.Not read the report but wasn't there the biggest decrease in the gap in literacy and numeracy since they started recording it?

He's here!

14-12-2022, 04:35 PM

Desperate.

Just an observation, not a criticism.

Keith_M

14-12-2022, 04:47 PM

Just an observation, not a criticism.

Sorry but I just spat out my coffee.

That's a good one, right enough

:faf:

grunt

14-12-2022, 04:51 PM

Desperate.
Just an observation, not a criticism.

Just Alf

14-12-2022, 05:14 PM

SShhh! you'll spoil all the unionist guys glee at right wing press anti SNP agendas. :greengrinJohn Beattie was hilarious on Drive Time just after 4.

He was doing a piece on the Shetland power outage.
First up was an ex bbc presenter now a Labour Councillor.. after a pre amble JB tried to get him to say the Scot Government were to blame for poor comms etc, Labour boybwasnt having it and said the comes were OK it was the fact that folks, even in normal.times had to go outside to get a good signal.for their radios.
Next was a Lib Dem woman (MSP?) He tried to go down a similar line saying the SNP should maybe compensate those without power, she shot that down saying it was nothing to donwith national or local government, the power company were responsible and had already admitted as much.

It was so desperate I laughed.... maybe one for the bbc bias thread :greengrin

Ozyhibby

15-12-2022, 11:46 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63988944?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=0E96F1BA-7C75-11ED-883A-80D44744363C&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link

Tax rates for high earners to rise.

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Santa Cruz

15-12-2022, 12:06 PM

Probably because I've never had to consider the implications of the higher tax brackets, I've never noticed the 41% rate applied to earnings over £43,663. If you were in a job where a promotion moved you into this bracket, could that lead to a colleague at a lower grade paying 21% in tax taking home more money despite the higher grade job presumably carrying more responsibilities?

Ozyhibby

15-12-2022, 12:11 PM

Santa Cruz

15-12-2022, 12:16 PM

No. You only pay the higher rate on your extra income.

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Don't really understand the extra income bit, but no matter, it's not a dilemma I'm ever likely to face. Don't go to the bother of trying to explain the workings to me, I won't get it. I'm like that with the offside rule and changing gears in cars too, no amount of explanations has ever helped me understand. :greengrin

danhibees1875

15-12-2022, 12:20 PM

Don't really understand the extra income bit, but no matter, it's not a dilemma I'm ever likely to face. Don't go to the bother of trying to explain the workings to me, I won't get it. I'm like that with the offside rule and changing gears in cars too, no amount of explanations has ever helped me understand. :greengrin

It's only what you earn above £43k that's taxed at the higher %, the rest is taxed normally.

Sorry - I know you didn't want any further explanation. :greengrin

Santa Cruz

15-12-2022, 12:23 PM

It's only what you earn above £43k that's taxed at the higher %, the rest is taxed normally.

Sorry - I know you didn't want any further explanation. :greengrin

I was more confused as to what extra earnings meant. So, the first £12'000 odds is tax free, then earnings from that rate to £43k is 21%, and anything over £43k is 41%?

Ozyhibby

15-12-2022, 12:27 PM

Don't really understand the extra income bit, but no matter, it's not a dilemma I'm ever likely to face. Don't go to the bother of trying to explain the workings to me, I won't get it. I'm like that with the offside rule and changing gears in cars too, no amount of explanations has ever helped me understand. :greengrin

I was really skint about 11 years ago and the gearbox went on the old van I was running at the time. My brother offered to change if for me if I helped. We took this thing to bits and rebuilt it all and he showed me every bit of that gearbox and how it worked. I still don’t have a clue. You either have that type of brain or not.

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Ozyhibby

15-12-2022, 12:27 PM

I was more confused as to what extra earnings meant. So, the first £12'000 odds is tax free, then earnings from that rate to £43k is 21%, and anything over £43k is 41%?

Yip, spot on.

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danhibees1875

15-12-2022, 12:32 PM

I was more confused as to what extra earnings meant. So, the first £12'000 odds is tax free, then earnings from that rate to £43k is 21%, and anything over £43k is 41%?

I think you understand the mechanics/theory of it about as well as you really want to, yes... but you've missed out the 19% and 20% thresholds. Then above that you also have 46% threshold, and a reduction to the tax free amount (£1 reduction for every £2 over £100k).

Also worth noting this is taxable income, so after pension contributions etc, and not the headline £X salary figure.

Santa Cruz

15-12-2022, 12:37 PM

I was really skint about 11 years ago and the gearbox went on the old van I was running at the time. My brother offered to change if for me if I helped. We took this thing to bits and rebuilt it all and he showed me every bit of that gearbox and how it worked. I still don’t have a clue. You either have that type of brain or not.

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Exactly, it's an aptitude thing. I have had dozens of colleagues and family line up items on a table like an attacking football team formation, painstakingly explaining the offside rule. I understand what they're telling me but can't recognise it happening in real time. Same with gears, I was told listen to the engine and you know when to change, I just couldn't grasp it. Moved on to an automatic, that went seriously pear shaped with two oddball instructors, one of which ended in a court case, I never pressed charges but was called as a witness. Apologies for the ranty tangent.:greengrin

CropleyWasGod

15-12-2022, 01:48 PM

Exactly, it's an aptitude thing. I have had dozens of colleagues and family line up items on a table like an attacking football team formation, painstakingly explaining the offside rule. I understand what they're telling me but can't recognise it happening in real time. Same with gears, I was told listen to the engine and you know when to change, I just couldn't grasp it. Moved on to an automatic, that went seriously pear shaped with two oddball instructors, one of which ended in a court case, I never pressed charges but was called as a witness. Apologies for the ranty tangent.:greengrin

Another tick in the "women...offside rule.... nah" box? :greengrin

Disclaimer..... it's definitely not a gender thing :rolleyes:

greenginger

15-12-2022, 01:48 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-63970360

leaks !

Mibbes Aye

15-12-2022, 01:53 PM

CropleyWasGod

15-12-2022, 01:58 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-63970360

leaks !

Not a day goes by without a mention of the ****ing ferries.... :rolleyes:

He's here!

15-12-2022, 02:04 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-63970360

leaks !

Or maybe Sturgeon is still hiding in her office:

Sturgeon flees questions over husband's 'murky' £100,000 SNP loan | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23193551.sturgeon-flees-questions-husbands-murky-100-000-snp-loan/)

grunt

15-12-2022, 02:16 PM

Or maybe Sturgeon is still hiding in her office:

Sturgeon flees questions over husband's 'murky' £100,000 SNP loan | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23193551.sturgeon-flees-questions-husbands-murky-100-000-snp-loan/)
Can't read Herald stories, but one of the comments below the story suggests this is "cash for access"!
How stupid is that?

(Apologies if it was your comment btw).

Moulin Yarns

15-12-2022, 02:25 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-63970360

leaks !

"I cannot express strongly enough my disappointment at information about this afternoon's statement appearing in the media before being given to the parliament. I have spoken to the first minister and the deputy first minister to express my concern in the strongest possible way and they have given me a categorical assurance that this information was not shared by the government."

Alison Johnstone
Scottish Parliament, presiding officer

greenginger

15-12-2022, 04:20 PM

"I cannot express strongly enough my disappointment at information about this afternoon's statement appearing in the media before being given to the parliament. I have spoken to the first minister and the deputy first minister to express my concern in the strongest possible way and they have given me a categorical assurance that this information was not shared by the government."

Alison Johnstone
Scottish Parliament, presiding officer

maybe Nicola just forgot she mentioned some details

SHODAN

15-12-2022, 05:12 PM

Ozyhibby

15-12-2022, 06:15 PM

https://fraserofallander.org/a-first-glance-scottish-budget-2023-2024/

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Ozyhibby

16-12-2022, 08:54 AM

https://twitter.com/scotparl/status/1603687611792515073?s=46&t=ju7_oENv2sXB7XfZw1DHuA

This is a good proposal and we’ll done the parties for working together. Now they need to speed up the planning process to get these houses built.

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heretoday

16-12-2022, 09:02 AM

Blimey. With a bit of overtime some nurses are going to be moving into the top tax bracket!

grunt

16-12-2022, 09:13 AM

Blimey. With a bit of overtime some nurses are going to be moving into the top tax bracket!
Do you have a problem with that? I expect some are there already. Or perhaps you think nurses don't deserve appropriate reward?

#NotAGoodLook

Jack

16-12-2022, 09:21 AM

Blimey. With a bit of overtime some nurses are going to be moving into the top tax bracket!

I think many graduates would expect to be in the top bracket, without overtime, before too long in their relevant field of expertise.

Stairway 2 7

16-12-2022, 09:35 AM

archie

16-12-2022, 10:19 AM

Obviously would have been happier with a bigger increase, but it's brilliant scot gov increasing tax from those that can afford it.

Notice the press aren't running with the top earners moving to England, got absolutely embarrassed last time they tried it mindI do think that there needed to be a tax rise. I'm less convinced that all those getting it will think 'they can afford it's.

Stairway 2 7

16-12-2022, 10:26 AM

I do think that there needed to be a tax rise. I'm less convinced that all those getting it will think 'they can afford it's.

The can afford it more than the the benefits rise its helped allow. Almost everyone is worse off over the last few years, the burden has to be weighted upwards. There is no good choices or times coming soon really

Ozyhibby

16-12-2022, 10:31 AM

Been surprised at how well the budget yesterday was received? Fair play to Swinney.

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Smartie

16-12-2022, 11:45 AM

Been surprised at how well the budget yesterday was received? Fair play to Swinney.

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There was a fair bit of howling, pissing and moaning about it on one of my WhatsApp group chats last night.

Generally dentists who either own their own practices and one guy who works in the community service screaming about the injustice of high rate taxpayers being squeezed harder, taking some time out from howling about the lack of public money available to give them more money for their dental practices without spotting any of the irony of the situation.

I don't get on well with dentists.

Ozyhibby

16-12-2022, 12:26 PM

LewysGot2

16-12-2022, 01:14 PM

And were all educated for free by the SG.[emoji849]

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Lots of people who work here will have paid fees for their higher education. And even those the Scottish Government pay the fees for will have student loans for their living expenses to pay back.

James310

16-12-2022, 01:59 PM

Been surprised at how well the budget yesterday was received? Fair play to Swinney.

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Not so sure it's been that well received.

"Council leaders have unanimously backed a motion describing the Scottish Budget as a “massive real terms cut” for councils.

They say it will “lead to socially harmful cuts to vital local services and the loss of jobs"

That's the opposite of well received I think.

Stairway 2 7

16-12-2022, 02:15 PM

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ps13bn-excluded-from-snpgreen-budget-hides-scale-of-cuts-for-public-services-ifs-3956807

£1.3bn 'excluded' from SNP/Green budget hides scale of cuts for public services - IFS

John Swinney has understated the scale of cuts to public services as part of his budget by excluding £1.3bn of additional funding the government found in this financial year, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said

Moulin Yarns

16-12-2022, 03:24 PM

Not so sure it's been that well received.

"Council leaders have unanimously backed a motion describing the Scottish Budget as a “massive real terms cut” for councils.

They say it will “lead to socially harmful cuts to vital local services and the loss of jobs"

That's the opposite of well received I think.

Or maybe increase the council tax by whatever it requires. After all, that's what it's for.

degenerated

16-12-2022, 05:41 PM

Ozyhibby

16-12-2022, 05:52 PM

The express don't get embarrassed. 26341

Most educated population in Europe. I think we’ll be fine.[emoji106]

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Since90+2

16-12-2022, 06:41 PM

Genuinely heartening to see Scotland taking a more compassionate route in terms of taxation and actually making those with the broadest shoulders carry the most weigh.

Mibbes Aye

16-12-2022, 08:27 PM

Or maybe increase the council tax by whatever it requires. After all, that's what it's for.

As you well know, SG disbursement makes up far more of Council income than the council tax.

For council tax to even come close to making up for the stealth underfunding and cuts created over years by SG's middle income bribe/council tax freeze and yesterday's budget then CT would have to go through the roof. It would be a spike akin to energy prices, bordering on people being in negative equity not on their mortgage but on the tax for having a house!

People are struggling with bills as it is, a council tax hike is only going to lead to non-payment, debt collection costs etc. No one wins from that bar the bailiffs.

It's the same old story really - shunt the responsibility for cuts onto councils to make them take the hit from the public. While continuing with an ideological mission to centralise, which is a complete u-turn on the promises made in the Community Empowerment Act (one of SG's best pieces of legislation IMO) and all the commitments to localism and place-based approaches which came out of Christie etc.

I've said it before, it is tactically very astute in a political sense but strategically it is deeply flawed. And ultimately the people hurt most are the people who depend the most on local government services. And they tend to be the poorest and most disadvantaged and most marginalised to begin with.

Mibbes Aye

16-12-2022, 08:42 PM

Been surprised at how well the budget yesterday was received? Fair play to Swinney.

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I paid more income tax before the budget than someone on the same salary in England. Fair enough, I choose to live here.

I pay even more income tax after the budget than that person in England. Fair enough, I choose to live here.

But it's not the penny added on that is the hit, it's the massive difference in threshold between Scotland and England - where we start paying higher rate a lot sooner and at a higher rate. But fair enough, I choose to live here.

I have aways been happy to pay higher taxes for better public services, from my first paying job to where I am now, and I am happy with the whole 'biggest shoulders' thing. I think in recent years there has been a lot of focus on graduated pay rises in the public sector that taper off the higher up you are and that's long overdue in terms of focusing on the least well-off.

But by the same token, there has to be some degree of scale - charge nurses should be paid more than staff nurses, chief superintendents should be paid more than chief inspectors and they all should receive a salary that matches their level of knowledge, skills and experience, as well as responsibility.

At the end of the day, I think I just wished SG ministers were more competent at prioritising and allocating my tax pounds. There are only a handful who I would describe as decent at their job, many who are mediocre and some who are downright awful. And yet they make the decisions on how money is spent on health, education and housing - the base layer of what makes for a good or bad society.

Hibby Bairn

16-12-2022, 08:56 PM

Pretty much how I see it Mibbes Aye.

greenginger

17-12-2022, 09:05 AM

Genuinely heartening to see Scotland taking a more compassionate route in terms of taxation and actually making those with the broadest shoulders carry the most weigh.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-63994465

would be alright if it worked.

There is a suggestion that although the tax changes to the highest earners are designed to bring in an extra £33 million that figure could be reduced to a mere £3 million if high earners adjust incomes to reduce the amount in the high tax bracket.

grunt

17-12-2022, 09:18 AM

There is a suggestion that although the tax changes to the highest earners are designed to bring in an extra £33 million that figure could be reduced to a mere £3 million if high earners adjust incomes to reduce the amount in the high tax bracket.
£3million? Even less if those high earners move to England! It'll never work! :wink:

grunt

17-12-2022, 09:23 AM

"They're doing it all wrong!"
"It'll never work!"
"I wouldn't do it that way!"

Hibs.net has become the annoying next door neighbour who only tells you that what you're doing is wrong but never has any suggestions of his own.

He's here!

17-12-2022, 09:53 AM

Genuinely heartening to see Scotland taking a more compassionate route in terms of taxation and actually making those with the broadest shoulders carry the most weigh.

That might be true if broad shoulders weren't few and far between in Scotland. There simply aren't enough rich people here. According to the Fraser of Allander study posted earlier, only 15,000 are on the top 'additional' rate and circa 350,000 on the higher rate. The vast majority of the 2.5 million who pay tax are on the starter/basic rate, while nearly 45% of Scots pay no tax at all. That's circa 15% of Scottish taxpayers paying circa 60% of the nation's tax. As has also been pointed out, last week's IFS study showed that the SG's tax increases will yield just £95 million - enough to run our NHS for two days.

It's also arguable whether pulling more and more middle earners into a higher tax bracket is 'compassionate'. Somebody mentioned nurses, and while they may not yet be at that level many who have been on picket lines lately are likely to find they are now deemed 'rich'.

It doesn't strike me as a recipe for growth, with public services like education set for further deep cuts - a slap in the face when you consider Sturgeon's long-forgotten pledge to be judged on her education record. Yet, of course she continues to blame Westminster austerity despite Scotland having assumed control of income tax years ago. Despite these tax-raising powers we continue to enjoy (as, again, Fraser of Allander points out) our highest ever handouts from Westminster via the Barnett formula, approx £2,300 per head. It's delusional stuff from Sturgeon and Swinney.

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 10:05 AM

That might be true if broad shoulders weren't few and far between in Scotland. There simply aren't enough rich people here. According to the Fraser of Allander study posted earlier, only 15,000 are on the top 'additional' rate and circa 350,000 on the higher rate. The vast majority of the 2.5 million who pay tax are on the starter/basic rate, while nearly 45% of Scots pay no tax at all. That's circa 15% of Scottish taxpayers paying circa 60% of the nation's tax. As has also been pointed out, last week's IFS study showed that the SG's tax increases will yield just £95 million - enough to run our NHS for two days.

It's also arguable whether pulling more and more middle earners into a higher tax bracket is 'compassionate'. Somebody mentioned nurses, and while they may not yet be at that level many who have been on picket lines lately are likely to find they are now deemed 'rich'.

It doesn't strike me as a recipe for growth, with public services like education set for further deep cuts - a slap in the face when you consider Sturgeon's long-forgotten pledge to be judged on her education record. Yet, of course she continues to blame Westminster austerity despite Scotland having assumed control of income tax years ago. Despite these tax-raising powers we continue to enjoy (as, again, Fraser of Allander points out) our highest ever handouts from Westminster via the Barnett formula, approx £2,300 per head. It's delusional stuff from Sturgeon and Swinney.

So much nonsense in three paragraphs.

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He's here!

17-12-2022, 10:10 AM

There was a fair bit of howling, pissing and moaning about it on one of my WhatsApp group chats last night.

Generally dentists who either own their own practices and one guy who works in the community service screaming about the injustice of high rate taxpayers being squeezed harder, taking some time out from howling about the lack of public money available to give them more money for their dental practices without spotting any of the irony of the situation.

I don't get on well with dentists.

Seems a strange sector of 'rich' people to pick on. Chief executives hoovering up eye-watering bonuses yes, but dentists? A highly-specialised profession which provides a vital health service (and requires at least six years of study/supervised practice), they were disproportionately hard hit during the pandemic and even when a phased re-opening was allowed, infection control measures severely limited the number of patients they could see. Millions of NHS appointments were lost, the backlog will take many months/years to clear and post-pandemic support from the SG has been woefully inadequate despite their 2021 manifesto pledge of free dental care for all. Another empty, wholly undeliverable promise.

He's here!

17-12-2022, 10:15 AM

So much nonsense in three paragraphs.

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You're the one who posted a link to Fraser of Allander. It's all in there:

Scotlands-Budget-Report-2022-Final-for-publication.pdf (fraserofallander.org) (https://fraserofallander.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Scotlands-Budget-Report-2022-Final-for-publication.pdf)

greenginger

17-12-2022, 10:21 AM

£3million? Even less if those high earners move to England! It'll never work! :wink:

These are figures produced by the Scottish Fiscal Commission , whoever they are, but just dismiss them as it does not fit your agenda.

He's here!

17-12-2022, 10:21 AM

And were all educated for free by the SG.[emoji849]

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Rather a sweeping generalisation? My dentist is Irish and she trained in England. The previous one had been in practice since before such a thing as a Scottish government existed.

Hibby Bairn

17-12-2022, 10:49 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-63994465

would be alright if it worked.

There is a suggestion that although the tax changes to the highest earners are designed to bring in an extra £33 million that figure could be reduced to a mere £3 million if high earners adjust incomes to reduce the amount in the high tax bracket.

I think that for every £1 now earned by the super rich above £43,663, 51p now goes to governments in tax and NI.

grunt

17-12-2022, 11:02 AM

Andy Bee

17-12-2022, 11:15 AM

I think that for every £1 now earned by the super rich above £43,663, 51p now goes to governments in tax and NI.

I'd hardly class someone on £43663 as super rich and it's 54p in every £1 above the threshold. Personally I'd of liked another band brought in around £65k - £70k, I don't think the £125k threshold will bring in that much extra as people on those amounts will probably be able to mitigate the rise using various different options. In a few years time there's going to be a lot of very rich pensioners in Scotland :greengrin

Andy Bee

17-12-2022, 11:22 AM

Have I got this right? SG criticised months ago on here for not using its powers to increase Income Tax to help with the cost of living crisis and funding of Gov departments. After the December budget statement, wherein the SG increased top rate of tax, they are criticised for increasing taxes.

Is that how it works?

They were always going to be criticised because they're not allowed to adjust any other taxes, the powers are limited to the two main taxes which are going to cause the widest upset if raised, pretty fly from the UKG.

Smartie

17-12-2022, 11:23 AM

That might be true if broad shoulders weren't few and far between in Scotland. There simply aren't enough rich people here. According to the Fraser of Allander study posted earlier, only 15,000 are on the top 'additional' rate and circa 350,000 on the higher rate. The vast majority of the 2.5 million who pay tax are on the starter/basic rate, while nearly 45% of Scots pay no tax at all. That's circa 15% of Scottish taxpayers paying circa 60% of the nation's tax. As has also been pointed out, last week's IFS study showed that the SG's tax increases will yield just £95 million - enough to run our NHS for two days.

It's also arguable whether pulling more and more middle earners into a higher tax bracket is 'compassionate'. Somebody mentioned nurses, and while they may not yet be at that level many who have been on picket lines lately are likely to find they are now deemed 'rich'.

It doesn't strike me as a recipe for growth, with public services like education set for further deep cuts - a slap in the face when you consider Sturgeon's long-forgotten pledge to be judged on her education record. Yet, of course she continues to blame Westminster austerity despite Scotland having assumed control of income tax years ago. Despite these tax-raising powers we continue to enjoy (as, again, Fraser of Allander points out) our highest ever handouts from Westminster via the Barnett formula, approx £2,300 per head. It's delusional stuff from Sturgeon and Swinney.

Nurses are an interesting example.

They'll be at the sharp end of underfunded public services.

I wonder what they might think of being dragged into a higher tax bracket, paying a little bit more tax, in order to give them more resources at their work with which to be able to their jobs to the best of their abilities and help people in need?

I suspect some would, some wouldn't. And whether or not they trust the SG to spend that money wisely is a totally different matter.

Most folk are bothered about more than just how much is in their pay packet at the end of the month and some folk (as has been expressed in some posts above) are comfortable with paying a little bit more.

Skol

17-12-2022, 11:25 AM

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 11:35 AM

The risk of people changing tax affairs is real. How many is still to be confirmed. This risk cannot just be dismissed, but that is what the snp seem to want to do.

I know my approach has changed over the last four years or so. In part this is down to the stage of life but I now put more money in my pension which means I don’t pay higher rate tax. I would probably have done this anyway as it’s sensible as you get past the point of financially supporting children and paying a mortgage and have money to save that you didn’t have previously.

I’m almost certain that behavioural change is not something that the Scottish revenue will have ignored when calculating what this raised. It is standard practise in all tax decisions both here and down south. And every other country as well.

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Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 11:41 AM

Nurses are an interesting example.

They'll be at the sharp end of underfunded public services.

I wonder what they might think of being dragged into a higher tax bracket, paying a little bit more tax, in order to give them more resources at their work with which to be able to their jobs to the best of their abilities and help people in need?

I suspect some would, some wouldn't. And whether or not they trust the SG to spend that money wisely is a totally different matter.

Most folk are bothered about more than just how much is in their pay packet at the end of the month and some folk (as has been expressed in some posts above) are comfortable with paying a little bit more.

Nurses in the higher tax bracket? I would say that it must be a very small percentage. You would need to be band 8 or above and have a masters degree going by a quick search of the internet. Those are management positions.

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Jay

17-12-2022, 12:23 PM

Nurses in the higher tax bracket? I would say that it must be a very small percentage. You would need to be band 8 or above and have a masters degree going by a quick search of the internet. Those are management positions.

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It'll be more than you think. A nurse at the top of band 5,which is gained in years service, who does a lot nightshifts and weekends could easily reach that.

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 12:25 PM

I'd hardly class someone on £43663 as super rich and it's 54p in every £1 above the threshold. Personally I'd of liked another band brought in around £65k - £70k, I don't think the £125k threshold will bring in that much extra as people on those amounts will probably be able to mitigate the rise using various different options. In a few years time there's going to be a lot of very rich pensioners in Scotland :greengrin

I agree.

A new band needs to be introduced to take out those 'super rich' on £60k.

The rest of the budget looks decent enough though, given the constraints they're under. Those wishing more tax rises should get their wishes as we move through the parliamentary term.

Those against are the usual suspects not wanting Scotland to deviate from the UK Gov austerity.

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 12:29 PM

I agree.

A new band needs to be introduced to take out those 'super rich' on £60k.

The rest of the budget looks decent enough though, given the constraints they're under. Those wishing more tax rises should get their wishes as we move through the parliamentary term.

Those against are the usual suspects not wanting Scotland to deviate from the UK Gov austerity.

Are the Scottish govt allowed to introduce new bands?

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ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 12:32 PM

Are the Scottish govt allowed to introduce new bands?

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Yes, for non savings and non dividends. We introduced SRIT.

We cant change throughout the year though. Only the UK Gov are allowed to do that.

Hibby Bairn

17-12-2022, 12:32 PM

I agree.

A new band needs to be introduced to take out those 'super rich' on £60k.

The rest of the budget looks decent enough though, given the constraints they're under. Those wishing more tax rises should get their wishes as we move through the parliamentary term.

Those against are the usual suspects not wanting Scotland to deviate from the UK Gov austerity.

I think your last sentence is wrong.

There are many people I know who are happy with the principle of paying "a bit more" but do not have the confidence that the SG will use it wisely.

James310

17-12-2022, 12:34 PM

These are figures produced by the Scottish Fiscal Commission , whoever they are, but just dismiss them as it does not fit your agenda.

The Scottish Fiscal Commission are the Scottish equivalent of the OBR. They are responsible to the Scottish Parliament.

"The Commission must produce two reports each financial year forecasting Scottish GDP, income from devolved taxes and expenditure on devolved social security benefits. Our forecasts inform the Scottish Budget and assist in the scrutiny of fiscal events. The Commission also provides an assessment of the reasonableness of the Government’s borrowing projections. In 2023 we will produce a report on the long-term sustainability of the Scottish Government’s public finances"

Apparently they didn't exist but looks like they do.

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 12:35 PM

I think your last sentence is wrong.

There are many people I know who are happy with the principle of paying "a bit more" but do not have the confidence that the SG will use it wisely.

You're entitled to your opinion. Many others seem to think they will/do use it wisely as per the election results.

I'd rather have the SG path to fairness and those with the broad shoulders taking more of the pain, rather than the austerity path the UK Gov is taking.

Skol

17-12-2022, 12:48 PM

Are the Scottish govt allowed to introduce new bands?

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How do you think we got the 19 and 21% rates ?

grunt

17-12-2022, 12:49 PM

There are many people I know who are happy with the principle of paying "a bit more" but do not have the confidence that the SG will use it wisely.
Yeah me too. I'd happily give money to charity as well, but I don't have confidence they'd use it wisely.

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 12:49 PM

Just Alf

17-12-2022, 12:50 PM

Have I got this right? SG criticised months ago on here for not using its powers to increase Income Tax to help with the cost of living crisis and funding of Gov departments. After the December budget statement, wherein the SG increased top rate of tax, they are criticised for increasing taxes.

Is that how it works?Yup exactly how it works :agree:

Just look back at the recent discussions on the indy thread.
SNP getting criticism for spending funds on indy related reports etc when a short period before they were getting criticism for not producing any information on a road to indy..... in one case it was the same poster!

Skol

17-12-2022, 12:56 PM

You're entitled to your opinion. Many others seem to think they will/do use it wisely as per the election results.

I'd rather have the SG path to fairness and those with the broad shoulders taking more of the pain, rather than the austerity path the UK Gov is taking.

I have no issue with the extra taxation.

I do think there are other tweaks they could have brought in as well. Something between the 42 and 47% maybe around 70k. Due to the NI issue I do Wonder if the 42% rate should be paid at the same as uk 40% and maybe there should be something that kicks in at maybe £35-£40k to bridge the gap between 21% and 42% which is a sizeable jump. Having said all that any of these changes have impacts and it’s important those that know better than me thinks those through and ensure appropriate risk mitigations in place.

I do have issues over the way any extra funding will be spent though.

Skol

17-12-2022, 12:59 PM

Yup exactly how it works :agree:

Just look back at the recent discussions on the indy thread.
SNP getting criticism for spending funds on indy related reports etc when a short period before they were getting criticism for not producing any information on a road to indy..... in one case it was the same poster!

My view is that Scottish government funding should not be used for independence unless we have voted for it. SNP should fund that. I know others will disagree

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 01:00 PM

I have no issue with the extra taxation.

I do think there are other tweaks they could have brought in as well. Something between the 42 and 47% maybe around 70k. Due to the NI issue I do Wonder if the 42% rate should be paid at the same as uk 40% and maybe there should be something that kicks in at maybe £35-£40k to bridge the gap between 21% and 42% which is a sizeable jump. Having said all that any of these changes have impacts and it’s important those that know better than me thinks those through and ensure appropriate risk mitigations in place.

I do have issues over the way any extra funding will be spent though.

What is it being spent on?

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ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 01:00 PM

Skol

17-12-2022, 01:02 PM

You could start with my last post on this thread.

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 01:02 PM

My view is that Scottish government funding should not be used for independence unless we have voted for it. SNP should fund that. I know others will disagree

What money has been used ' for independence' ?

I thought we were still colonised. 😂

Skol

17-12-2022, 01:06 PM

What money has been used ' for independence' ?

I thought we were still colonised. 😂

That is a very odd post

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 01:07 PM

That is a very odd post

It's not really.

I've asked you a question.

Just Alf

17-12-2022, 01:21 PM

My view is that Scottish government funding should not be used for independence unless we have voted for it. SNP should fund that. I know others will disagreeThe SNP had indy related spending (indy ref2) in their manifesto and were duly elected into office?

He's here!

17-12-2022, 02:12 PM

My view is that Scottish government funding should not be used for independence unless we have voted for it. SNP should fund that. I know others will disagree

With the 'de facto referendum' a couple of years away (and unlikely to actually happen IMHO) Swinney has, at least, conceded that the £20 million banked for independence campaigning will now be put to better use.

Ozyhibby

17-12-2022, 02:35 PM

With the 'de facto referendum' a couple of years away (and unlikely to actually happen IMHO) Swinney has, at least, conceded that the £20 million banked for independence campaigning will now be put to better use.

It was never for independence campaigning.[emoji849]

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Allant1981

17-12-2022, 02:46 PM

It'll be more than you think. A nurse at the top of band 5,which is gained in years service, who does a lot nightshifts and weekends could easily reach that.

I work with loads of nurses and can assure you none of the band 5s easily make that kind of money

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 02:48 PM

With the 'de facto referendum' a couple of years away (and unlikely to actually happen IMHO) Swinney has, at least, conceded that the £20 million banked for independence campaigning will now be put to better use.

Misleading post. It was never for campaigning but you knew that.

He's here!

17-12-2022, 02:50 PM

It was never for independence campaigning.[emoji849]

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Nit-picking. Swinney stated that the fund was 'earmarked for a referendum on independence'. He's clearly accepted that isn't happening any time soon.

He's here!

17-12-2022, 02:56 PM

These are figures produced by the Scottish Fiscal Commission , whoever they are, but just dismiss them as it does not fit your agenda.

That tends to be the way of it. Basically, I don't like/agree with what I'm reading therefore it's nonsense.

I lifted info directly from the Fraser of Allander Institute earlier which underlines why the SG's tax hikes will carry next to no significant impact but because they don't fit the 'Scottish Government can do no wrong' narrative they were airily dismissed.

grunt

17-12-2022, 03:04 PM

These are figures produced by the Scottish Fiscal Commission , whoever they are, but just dismiss them as it does not fit your agenda.
Got a link? I've read the Scottish Fiscal Commission report dated 15 December 2022 on Scotland's Economic and Fiscal Forecasts but I can't find any reference to what you describe. Thanks.

Also - you don't know why I might have dismissed your figures. I rarely - if ever - dismiss something because it doesn't "fit my agenda".

Skol

17-12-2022, 04:15 PM

It's not really.

I've asked you a question.

It was really, especially the colony bit.

The question about spending on independence doesn’t need to be asked really. You know the answer as well as I do. But hey, we can always dismiss that and say look at the money the tories are wasting.

CropleyWasGod

17-12-2022, 05:29 PM

This passed me by.

Land And Buildings Transaction Tax for additional properties is now 6%, twice what it is in England.

Great move IMO, for a few reasons.

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 07:02 PM

It was really, especially the colony bit.

The question about spending on independence doesn’t need to be asked really. You know the answer as well as I do. But hey, we can always dismiss that and say look at the money the tories are wasting.

That's why the emoji was there. You might have missed it, just like you did giving an answer to the question.

If you're meaning the £20m on the manifesto pledge we can discuss that if you want.

How much has been spent?

Was it for a manifesto pledge?

Are we independent?

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 07:03 PM

This passed me by.

Land And Buildings Transaction Tax for additional properties is now 6%, twice what it is in England.

Great move IMO, for a few reasons.

Up from 4%

Skol

17-12-2022, 07:29 PM

That's why the emoji was there. You might have missed it, just like you did giving an answer to the question.

If you're meaning the £20m on the manifesto pledge we can discuss that if you want.

How much has been spent?

Was it for a manifesto pledge?

Are we independent?

I saw the emoji but guess I must be thick as I didn’t and still don’t get what it meant.

On the Scottish government spending on independence, are you saying not one penny has been spent ? Manifesto pledge or not, I don’t believe any spending from the public purse is valid unless we have voted for independence. Prior to that it should be from party coffers.

James310

17-12-2022, 07:39 PM

Kato

17-12-2022, 08:53 PM

So all manifesto commitments and spending on them is justified? Does that extend to all parties?Errm. Aye.

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ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 09:19 PM

I saw the emoji but guess I must be thick as I didn’t and still don’t get what it meant.

On the Scottish government spending on independence, are you saying not one penny has been spent ? Manifesto pledge or not, I don’t believe any spending from the public purse is valid unless we have voted for independence. Prior to that it should be from party coffers.

I never said anything. I asked three questions which you've not answered.

ronaldo7

17-12-2022, 09:20 PM

So all manifesto commitments and spending on them is justified? Does that extend to all parties?

That's democracy.

James310

17-12-2022, 09:28 PM

Errm. Aye.

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So you will defend the Tory's right to spend hundreds of millions to "Get Brexit Done" as it was a manifesto commitment. Cool, was just checking.

Kato

17-12-2022, 09:49 PM

So you will defend the Tory's right to spend hundreds of millions to "Get Brexit Done" as it was a manifesto commitment. Cool, was just checking.

That's the rules that have been made up so that's how things are whether I agree with them or not. So aye cool, you're right to check.

Parliamentary groups like the ERG are also funded by us, the tax payer. I don't like it but it's within the rules.

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Jack

18-12-2022, 07:14 AM

So you will defend the Tory's right to spend hundreds of millions to "Get Brexit Done" as it was a manifesto commitment. Cool, was just checking.

I'd say legitimate spending on getting Brexit done was fair enough. Spending money on ferries that did not exist, for example, was not legitimate.

Skol

18-12-2022, 07:22 AM

I never said anything. I asked three questions which you've not answered.

You know the answers already so I am not clear why you want me to.

We are not independent. It was a manifesto pledge and as for the amount I don’t know the exact figure.

ronaldo7

18-12-2022, 08:35 AM

You know the answers already so I am not clear why you want me to.

We are not independent. It was a manifesto pledge and as for the amount I don’t know the exact figure.

I don't know the figure that's been spent on getting ready for a referendum. I thought you knew, that's why I asked.

Thanks for responding though. 👍

Just Alf

18-12-2022, 09:46 AM

So all manifesto commitments and spending on them is justified? Does that extend to all parties?Just catching up, see conversation moved on... but to answer you personally..... yes 100%.

marinello59

18-12-2022, 09:47 AM

I'm pretty sure there are still 2 ferries and flights to the uists. Oban to barra and a short hop to eriskay or Uig to Lochmaddy, plus flights to benbecula. They aren't cut off.

The ferry service is crap so just take the plane. Very Green. :greengrin

The lack of empathy being shown towards our islanders who have been suffering the consequences of a substandard ferry service for years is striking.

Skol

18-12-2022, 12:53 PM

I don't know the figure that's been spent on getting ready for a referendum. I thought you knew, that's why I asked.

Thanks for responding though. 👍

In the big scheme it’s probably small but it’s the principle of it I don’t agree with. We know there is a team of 11 working on these papers and we know about the Supreme Court case

There are other examples of bad funding choices being made as well. Again small compared to the tories but they should be held to account on these things.

Ozyhibby

18-12-2022, 12:55 PM

In the big scheme it’s probably small but it’s the principle of it I don’t agree with. We know there is a team of 11 working on these papers and we know about the Supreme Court case

There are other examples of bad funding choices being made as well. Again small compared to the tories but they should be held to account on these things.

The people who voted them into power probably think they should be spending more.

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Skol

18-12-2022, 12:58 PM

The people who voted them into power probably think they should be spending more.

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Yes but we are allowed different views I hope.

grunt

18-12-2022, 01:10 PM

There are other examples of bad funding choices being made as well. Again small compared to the tories but they should be held to account on these things.

The people who voted them into power probably think they should be spending more.

Yes but we are allowed different views I hope.
So, you want them to be "held to account" for doing what the majority voted for?

James310

18-12-2022, 01:13 PM

So, you want them to be "held to account" for doing what the majority voted for?

So why are you complaining about Brexit or pretty much any government policy, it's what the majority voted for. Don't question it or hold them to account if that's how you feel?

People are allowed to question Governments, that is still allowed I think.

grunt

18-12-2022, 01:25 PM

So why are you complaining about Brexit, it's what the majority voted for. Don't question it or hold them to account if that's how you feel? People are allowed to question Governments, that is still allowed I think.
Good point but I think Brexit is different. There are lot of reasons to complain about Brexit, it was objectively wrong, the protagonists blatantly lied and many of the electorate were too stupid to understand the implications. So for me, brexit as an example of democracy is an outlier, because of what I see as the criminality and wrongdoing involved in the vote. if it was down to me, the people behind the vote would be in jail.

I don't want to hold the Tories to account for brexit, I want it undone and the perpetrators imprisoned.

So it's different.

James310

18-12-2022, 01:56 PM

Good point but I think Brexit is different. There are lot of reasons to complain about Brexit, it was objectively wrong, the protagonists blatantly lied and many of the electorate were too stupid to understand the implications. So for me, brexit as an example of democracy is an outlier, because of what I see as the criminality and wrongdoing involved in the vote. if it was down to me, the people behind the vote would be in jail.

I don't want to hold the Tories to account for brexit, I want it undone and the perpetrators imprisoned.

So it's different.

But your saying pretty much any government policy cannot be criticised as the majority voted for that
particular Government, that's how Governments get into power as more people vote for them than the others. Apologies if I have picked you up wrong but that seems to be what you are suggesting?

Also most of the above is opinion, not fact.

marinello59

18-12-2022, 02:12 PM

Good point but I think Brexit is different. There are lot of reasons to complain about Brexit, it was objectively wrong, the protagonists blatantly lied and many of the electorate were too stupid to understand the implications. So for me, brexit as an example of democracy is an outlier, because of what I see as the criminality and wrongdoing involved in the vote. if it was down to me, the people behind the vote would be in jail.

I don't want to hold the Tories to account for brexit, I want it undone and the perpetrators imprisoned.

So it's different.

The most ardent Brexiteers and the most ardent Yes voters use pretty much the same arguments , they just swap sides depending on which topic is being discussed. It’s very good fun to watch. :greengrin

Smartie

18-12-2022, 02:19 PM

The most ardent Brexiteers and the most ardent Yes voters use pretty much the same arguments , they just swap sides depending on which topic is being discussed. It’s very good fun to watch. :greengrin

I'll happily confess to being conflicted and hypocritical on this one - using and accepting certain arguments when being used in one debate then rejecting them flat out when it comes to the other.

All I'd say is that the arguments aren't identical and I think it's fairly rational to evaluate what is being offered and sacrificed in each union, possibly fancying remaining in one but not the other.

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:23 PM

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:24 PM

But your saying pretty much any government policy cannot be criticised as the majority voted for that
particular Government, that's how Governments get into power as more people vote for them than the others. Apologies if I have picked you up wrong but that seems to be what you are suggesting?

Also most of the above is opinion, not fact.This is not what I'm saying.

marinello59

18-12-2022, 02:25 PM

I usually find that people who say this fundamentally fail to understand the nature of the EU.

I’m must be one of the too stupid to understand the issue voters you keep going on about then. :greengrin

James310

18-12-2022, 02:26 PM

The most ardent Brexiteers and the most ardent Yes voters use pretty much the same arguments , they just swap sides depending on which topic is being discussed. It’s very good fun to watch. :greengrin

We just need a Believe in Scotland slogan and how the people of Scotland are best placed to make the decisions about Scotland and you have Nigel McFarage.

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:28 PM

I’m must be one of the too stupid to understand the issue voters you keep going on about then. :greengrinQuite possibly right, I couldn't say.

Let me just suggest that the relationship that Scotland has with England as part of the UK is very different to the relationship that Scotland would have with the EU as an independent member thereof. The fact that the word "union" is used in both cases is a red herring. They are not the same type of union.

James310

18-12-2022, 02:29 PM

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:31 PM

We just need a Believe in Scotland slogan and how the people of Scotland are best placed to make the decisions about Scotland and you have Nigel McFarage.
That's very amusing but of course fails to reflect the fact that most people wanting Scottish independence want to be members of the EU. So, amusing, but wrong.

James310

18-12-2022, 02:31 PM

This is not what I'm saying.

I am not really sure the point you were making to Skol then. You seemed to be implying government should not be held to account because the majority of people voted for said government.

marinello59

18-12-2022, 02:38 PM

Quite possibly right, I couldn't say.

Let me just suggest that the relationship that Scotland has with England as part of the UK is very different to the relationship that Scotland would have with the EU as an independent member thereof. The fact that the word "union" is used in both cases is a red herring. They are not the same type of union.

Everyday is a school day.:greengrin

Note to self… when making a lighthearted comment which isn’t meant to be taken too seriously….delete. :greengrin

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:42 PM

Everyday is a school day.:greengrin

Note to self… when making a lighthearted comment which isn’t meant to be taken too seriously….delete. :greengrinSorry, my reply should have been ...

Quite possibly right, I couldn't say.:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:wink:

Let me just suggest that the relationship that Scotland has with England as part of the UK is very different to the relationship that Scotland would have with the EU as an independent member thereof. The fact that the word "union" is used in both cases is a red herring. They are not the same type of union.

marinello59

18-12-2022, 02:43 PM

Sorry, my reply should have been ...

The original made me laugh, all is good. :greengrin

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:47 PM

I am not really sure the point you were making to Skol then. You seemed to be implying government should not be held to account because the majority of people voted for said government.
Skol seemed to want the SG held to account - by which I inferred he meant criticised - for doing something they'd campaigned to do and included in their manifesto. It just seemed odd that he'd want them held to account for doing something they said they would do.

McSwanky

18-12-2022, 02:49 PM

We just need a Believe in Scotland slogan and how the people of Scotland are best placed to make the decisions about Scotland and you have Nigel McFarage.If you spin it that way of course.

My main driver for Independence, and it's never stated much so I assume its a minority view, is

1. The UK system is broken, FPTP is nonsense, the Lords is nonsense, the whole system favours the big two, which leads me onto my second point
2. Despite the occasional suggestions to the contrary, there is zero desire by the ruling parties to change this. And I include the SNP in that.

So we're stuck with a perpetual binary choice of governing party, neither of which have been good options for years.

We have no way of forcing constitutional change within the UK, so the only option for me is to break free and do our own thing.

The recent SNP budget has been relatively well received in Scotland which gives me hope that a fairer and more collaborative government might pop up after Independence. The devolved parliament has, until fairly recently, had a much friendlier and collaborative approach than Westminster and a voting system that rarely returns a majority helps with that.

A rabid nationalist I am not, but rationally I can't see any other way out of the **** show that is UK politics at the moment.

But you carry on with your Nigel McFarage characterisations if that's what makes you happy. I'll continue to hope one day we end up with a kinder government who choose to look after the people they represent.

James310

18-12-2022, 02:50 PM

grunt

18-12-2022, 02:52 PM

Don't you all governments should be held to account for everything they do, whether they said they would do it or not?
It comes down to the meaning of "held to account" and it's entirely possible I'm interpreting that phrase differently to others on here.

Skol

18-12-2022, 03:19 PM

Skol seemed to want the SG held to account - by which I inferred he meant criticised - for doing something they'd campaigned to do and included in their manifesto. It just seemed odd that he'd want them held to account for doing something they said they would do.

I meant held to account where their actions are questionable. If they say they will do something, get elected and do it then Fair enough. Albeit if they do it badly they should be held to account.

The difference for me is independence. That’s not something holyrood can deliver and so snp can campaign and push, but government resources should not be used to make the case.

I guess though this shows the challenge of message boards what is said and what is read can be very different. A discussion face to face over a pint might be much more amiable. Albeit with risk of ending in a pagger.

WhileTheChief..

18-12-2022, 03:24 PM

I’m must be one of the too stupid to understand the issue voters you keep going on about then. :greengrin

You're in good company. Most of us are too stupid to understand apparently.

Just Alf

18-12-2022, 03:42 PM

I meant held to account where their actions are questionable. If they say they will do something, get elected and do it then Fair enough. Albeit if they do it badly they should be held to account.

The difference for me is independence. That’s not something holyrood can deliver and so snp can campaign and push, but government resources should not be used to make the case.

I guess though this shows the challenge of message boards what is said and what is read can be very different. A discussion face to face over a pint might be much more amiable. Albeit with risk of ending in a pagger.Ha ha... I've long thought a dot net holy ground beer would be a great thing.

Then I keep reading and think there might not be enough of the boys and girls in blue on duty of an evening to contain the "excitement"! :rofl:

marinello59

18-12-2022, 03:46 PM

Ha ha... I've long thought a dot net holy ground beer would be a great thing.

:

We need to make this happen. :greengrin

Hibbyradge

18-12-2022, 04:15 PM

We need to make this happen. :greengrin

There would be nothing to discuss if folk were being civilised to each other and not petty point scoring.

People would state their viewpoints, there would be no middle ground or compromising, and conversation would just stop.

It would leave plenty time to get pished and moan about Hibs, though, so I'm in!

Moulin Yarns

18-12-2022, 04:41 PM

We need to make this happen. :greengrin

Any contact with campervan or pilot breweries on here???

Kato

18-12-2022, 08:22 PM

But you carry on with your Nigel McFarage characterisations if that's what makes you happy.

.

It's the kind of stereotyping employed by "British Nationalists". Low.

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He's here!

18-12-2022, 09:23 PM

Nicola Sturgeon wants us to be judged on her record - it's about time we did (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeon-wants-to-be-judged-on-her-record-its-about-time-we-did)

Berwickhibby

18-12-2022, 09:33 PM

Ozyhibby

18-12-2022, 09:37 PM

Judged and found guilty :greengrin:greengrin

By Mandy Rhodes? [emoji23][emoji23]

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James310

18-12-2022, 09:58 PM

By Mandy Rhodes? [emoji23][emoji23]

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What's wrong with Mandy Rhodes?

She used to write glowing almost sycophant articles about Nicola Sturgeon. If I remember correctly she was also the journalist that Nicola Sturgeon chose to open up about her miscarriage about as they are good friends. Her husband is also a SNP campaigner and stood to become a SNP MSP.

What's the problem with her? Or she another one added to your list to be dismissed because she is critical?

From the the Times

"Scotland’s first minister, is a political dynamo whose appeal stretches far beyond her home country. But like many top female politicians, she is childless. Here, Mandy Rhodes, the journalist closest to her, reveals how a secret miscarriage in 2011 dashed Sturgeon’s hopes of becoming a mother"

Hardly an enemy of Nicola Sturgeon, the journalist closest to her.

WeeRussell

18-12-2022, 10:09 PM

We just need a Believe in Scotland slogan and how the people of Scotland are best placed to make the decisions about Scotland and you have Nigel McFarage.

Dearie ****ing me.

He's here!

18-12-2022, 10:13 PM

What's wrong with Mandy Rhodes?

She used to write glowing almost sycophant articles about Nicola Sturgeon. If I remember correctly she was also the journalist that Nicola Sturgeon chose to open up about her miscarriage about as they are good friends. Her husband is also a SNP campaigner and stood to become a SNP MSP.

What's the problem with her? Or she another one added to your list to be dismissed because she is critical?

From the the Times

"Scotland’s first minister, is a political dynamo whose appeal stretches far beyond her home country. But like many top female politicians, she is childless. Here, Mandy Rhodes, the journalist closest to her, reveals how a secret miscarriage in 2011 dashed Sturgeon’s hopes of becoming a mother"

Hardly an enemy of Nicola Sturgeon, the journalist closest to her.

Yes, I recall Rhodes being the hand-picked journalist she chose to open up to about her miscarriage.

She's a journalist though and wouldn't be doing her job if she didn't dole out criticism where she feels it's due.

It does appear though, that for some any media criticism of Sturgeon or the SG can be airily dismissed with an emoji. Job done. Nothing to see here.

He's here!

19-12-2022, 07:00 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64017092

Further Scottish education cuts looming.

Ozyhibby

19-12-2022, 08:28 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64017092

Further Scottish education cuts looming.

Without getting into the politics of that article, the bit about some higher classes only running with five kids is interesting. Would it not make sense for some schools to merge their 5th and 6th year students into other schools? Obviously this only works in cities and towns with multiple schools. I know this happens for some individual subjects but a more formal arrangement where the whole year groups are merged? Say if when it got to 5th year that Craigmount and Royal High had joint year groups. That way there is less chance of tiny class sizes and maybe a better choice of subjects can be offered? Same for Craigroyston and Broughton and so on?

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James310

19-12-2022, 10:02 AM

Without getting into the politics of that article, the bit about some higher classes only running with five kids is interesting. Would it not make sense for some schools to merge their 5th and 6th year students into other schools? Obviously this only works in cities and towns with multiple schools. I know this happens for some individual subjects but a more formal arrangement where the whole year groups are merged? Say if when it got to 5th year that Craigmount and Royal High had joint year groups. That way there is less chance of tiny class sizes and maybe a better choice of subjects can be offered? Same for Craigroyston and Broughton and so on?

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In the full interview he says that happens today where it can but things like that will ultimately be cut as they will become "non viable" subjects.

Being in Government does mean you have difficult choices to make there is no getting round that. The SNP have prioritised benefits and the amount Scotland is going to spend on benefits is going to significantly increase.

"The SNP has inflicted deep spending cuts on schools in this week's Scottish Budget while "channelling" spiralling amounts of taxpayers' money to handing out welfare payments, expert analysis has found.

The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) said Scottish schools and local authorities were the "big losers" of John Swinney's spending plans for 2023/24 when compared with what has been allocated to education in England."

I appreciate many people will be happy with this and as I say it's balancing act.

Ozyhibby

19-12-2022, 11:33 AM

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-condemns-jeremy-clarkson-comments-on-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-as-deeply-misogynist-3958828

Well said NS.

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He's here!

19-12-2022, 02:02 PM

NASUWT to join EIS and SSTA in 10 and 11 January teaching strikes. EIS have also previously announced 16 consecutive days of January strike action across every region in Scotland:

Third teachers' union confirms January strike dates - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64027370)

I'm glad (for want of a better word) that the NASUWT have joined the other two main teaching unions in co-ordinated action in the sense that no teacher will feel pressured into working, but this is a grim situation with the SG and the unions still a long way apart on what constitutes a reasonable pay offer.

He's here!

21-12-2022, 01:12 PM

Scottish nurses announce strike action:

Nurses in Scotland to strike after rejecting pay deal from NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64052327)

grunt

21-12-2022, 01:27 PM

Scottish nurses announce strike action:

Nurses in Scotland to strike after rejecting pay deal from NHS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64052327)
They have not announced strike action.

He's here!

21-12-2022, 01:31 PM

They have not announced strike action.

How do you interpret a headline that reads 'Nurses in Scotland to strike over NHS pay deal'?

Ozyhibby

21-12-2022, 01:33 PM

SG need to say to the RCN and other unions we guarantee we will match whatever the UK govt offers. That way the nurses here can avoid losing pay while striking while at the same time have the benefits of the industrial action down south. And in the mean time the SG can proceed with the current offer of 7.5% so that nurses start to get the benefit of it asap.
We need to look after our health service workers as well as the public.
We are not fully in control in Scotland but we can at least show we will do our best.

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grunt

21-12-2022, 01:33 PM

How do you interpret a headline that reads 'Nurses in Scotland to strike over NHS pay deal'?
The headline is wrong. BBC as usual.

Stairway 2 7

21-12-2022, 01:34 PM

They have not announced strike action.

They have. They have started actions towards a strike, the dates will be announced in the new year. Being pedantic won't change the reality.

I'm running a book that they will magically find the money, who's in

Ozyhibby

21-12-2022, 01:36 PM

They have. They have started actions towards a strike, the dates will be announced in the new year. Being pedantic won't change the reality.

I'm running a book that they will magically find the money, who's in

I agree. I think the SG will negotiate and get a deal done. Hopefully.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]

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grunt

21-12-2022, 01:39 PM

They have. They have started actions towards a strike, the dates will be announced in the new year. Being pedantic won't change the reality. Then they have not announced strike action. if you can't tell me the dates of the strikes then, as of now, they have not announced strike action. Words are important.

I'm running a book that they will magically find the money, who's inAnd in the same breath as saying they've announced strikes, you say they won't go ahead! :wink:

Stairway 2 7

21-12-2022, 01:49 PM

Then they have not announced strike action. if you can't tell me the dates of the strikes then, as of now, they have not announced strike action. Words are important.

And in the same breath as saying they've announced strikes, you say they won't go ahead! :wink:

Your not daft I'm sure it's bellow me to continue this utterly childish tete-a-tete

grunt

21-12-2022, 02:30 PM

Your not daft I'm sure it's bellow me to continue this utterly childish tete-a-tete
Agree. Please understand I was criticising the BBC and not you.

Berwickhibby

29-12-2022, 01:03 PM

Patrick Grady has whip restored…it appears sexually harassing teenagers is acceptable behaviour within the SNP

James310

29-12-2022, 01:09 PM

Patrick Grady has whip restored…it appears sexually harassing teenagers is acceptable behaviour within the SNP

Is that what zero tolerance looks like these days?

He's here!

29-12-2022, 02:44 PM

Is that what zero tolerance looks like these days?

There would, I imagine, be a wider outcry if the Tories did something similar.

SNP welcomes sex pest back with open arms
msn
A new year beckons but old habits die hard. So it’s no surprise then that the SNP have opted to begin 2023 by welcoming one of their disgraced brethren back into the fold. Patrick Grady, the party’s former chief whip, has this morning had the SNP whip restored at Westminster – despite being found to have sexually harassed a teenage party employee. Is that what the nats meant when they talked about preserving ‘Scotland’s future’?
Grady was reported to have ‘resigned’ last summer from the nationalists after the Commons authorities ruled he had made an unwanted sexual advance towards a male staff member. But now Kieran Andrews – the scoop-getting, agenda-setting Scottish political editor of the Times – reports (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patrick-grady-has-snp-whip-restored-after-sexual-harassment-suspension-zpvk7mqv3)that the SNP’s member conduct committee only ‘imposed upon Patrick a six-month suspension of his party membership.’ This was backdated to his initial-two day Commons on June 14.
The period in question has now elapsed meaning that Grady is now free to rejoin his SNP colleagues, according to an email sent to MPs this morning by the new Chief Whip Martin Docherty-Hughes. ‘Patrick Grady MP has therefore had his membership of the SNP reinstated and, as such, he has regained the SNP Westminster group whip.’ Welcome back Patrick.
So much for all that talk from Nicola Sturgeon about taking ‘these issues very seriously’…

marinello59

29-12-2022, 03:58 PM

Patrick Grady has whip restored…it appears sexually harassing teenagers is acceptable behaviour within the SNP

Political arrogance. They know they can do what they want and they will still be weighing their votes at the next election.

Skol

29-12-2022, 06:29 PM

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 08:48 AM

That is quite odd about Grady and quite out of line with the position the SNP would have taken if this had been the tories.

It is even stranger that we now have a new head in Westminster who presumably had a say in the matter.

Had one of my mates who is an SNP member suggest Grady had been punished enough as he was suspended from the party for 6 months and lost his position. What 6 months suspension on full pay for being a sexual beast 🙄 …unbelievable

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 09:38 AM

Had one of my mates who is an SNP member suggest Grady had been punished enough as he was suspended from the party for 6 months and lost his position. What 6 months suspension on full pay for being a sexual beast [emoji849] …unbelievable

Sorry, can you run me through what Grady did again?

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JeMeSouviens

30-12-2022, 09:41 AM

Had one of my mates who is an SNP member suggest Grady had been punished enough as he was suspended from the party for 6 months and lost his position. What 6 months suspension on full pay for being a sexual beast 🙄 …unbelievable

Inappropriate behaviour which the police decided wasn't enough to charge him with anything. "Sexual beast" probably a little strong, no?

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 09:46 AM

Sorry, can you run me through what Grady did again?

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According to the press he made sexual advances to a teenager by touching him and suggesting inappropriate sexual acts.

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 09:48 AM

Inappropriate behaviour which the police decided wasn't enough to charge him with anything. "Sexual beast" probably a little strong, no?

Strong …if this had been a MP from any other party there would be nothing but condemnation…but No ..welcome back Patrick

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 09:51 AM

According to the press he made sexual advances to a teenager by touching him and suggesting inappropriate sexual acts.

What were the inappropriate sexual acts? I can’t remember that bit?

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Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 09:57 AM

What were the inappropriate sexual acts? I can’t remember that bit?

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I wasn’t privy to the conversation but I imagine Grady was not asking the Hibs Score when He was touching up the teenager. But I am sure you will find a reason to defend his behaviour or brush it under the carpet as he is SNP.

Bostonhibby

30-12-2022, 10:01 AM

I wasn’t privy to the conversation but I imagine Grady was not asking the Hibs Score when He was touching up the teenager. But I am sure you will find a reason to defend his behaviour or brush it under the carpet as he is SNP.Should independent Scotland ever fancy a monarchy he sounds like ideal Prince material.

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JeMeSouviens

30-12-2022, 10:07 AM

Strong …if this had been a MP from any other party there would be nothing but condemnation…but No ..welcome back Patrick

I don't think there is anything but condemnation for Grady?

Boss abuses position to make inappropriate advances to younger employee is a story as old as time. Does he deserve a demotion, suspension and public shame, yes absolutely. Instant dismissal*? I'm not sure.

Your point about hypocrisy vis a vis Tories doesn't really stand though. In today's Tory party, Grady would certainly have received no sanction whatsoever.

* which isn't actually possible for an MP without a complicated process that the speaker has to initiate.

NORTHERNHIBBY

30-12-2022, 10:10 AM

The victim of the alleged assualt is claiming that he was sidelined and bullied after making the allegations. Now that the perpetrator ,post apology, is now back in his role, perhaps Ian Blackford was punted for not being on the same page. It stinks more than just a wee bit. I would like to think that the same thing couldn't happen in the Scottish Parliament, but that may be a bit niave. Westminster almost seems to have a sleazy factor that is acceptable.

Eaststand

30-12-2022, 10:35 AM

I wasn’t privy to the conversation but I imagine Grady was not asking the Hibs Score when He was touching up the teenager. But I am sure you will find a reason to defend his behaviour or brush it under the carpet as he is SNP.

This seems to be a subject you enjoy as you often highlight and comment on cases with some allegations of sexual misconduct.

What would your opinion be of a person who seems to revel in stories containing allegations of sexual impropriety.

Would you also think it's fair to add on 'possible' imaginary scenarios to attempt to damage a person's reputation (a person from any political party, not only SNP)

I'm genuinely curious.

GGTTH

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 10:36 AM

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 10:55 AM

Did you just imagine that then?

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I admire your devotion to your Party, but to deflect the behaviour of Grady is amazing …are you happy accepting him back?

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 10:58 AM

This seems to be a subject you enjoy as you often highlight and comment on cases with some allegations of sexual misconduct.

What would your opinion be of a person who seems to revel in stories containing allegations of sexual impropriety.

Would you also think it's fair to add on 'possible' imaginary scenarios to attempt to damage a person's reputation (a person from any political party, not only SNP)

I'm genuinely curious.

GGTTH

I comment as the hypocrisy of SNP zero tolerance statements are nonsense

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 11:18 AM

I admire your devotion to your Party, but to deflect the behaviour of Grady is amazing …are you happy accepting him back?

You made an allegation, I’m just asking you to stand it up?

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Just Alf

30-12-2022, 11:35 AM

The news yesterday included a report from the police where they stated that they responded to a 3rd party report and when they spoke to the victim there was no case to answer in a legal perspective as agreed by alleged victim.

Acting inappropriately etc and how the SNP handled it is a whole other matter of course.

Berwickhibby

30-12-2022, 11:44 AM

You made an allegation, I’m just asking you to stand it up?

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I repeated what I read… as do the majority on here…so can you repeat the conversation that occurred between Grady or do you also rely on what’s reported in the press.

CropleyWasGod

30-12-2022, 11:54 AM

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 12:04 PM

I repeated what I read… as do the majority on here…so can you repeat the conversation that occurred between Grady or do you also rely on what’s reported in the press.

You made the accusation. Or should I say ‘made up’ the accusation?

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Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 12:33 PM

Not sure whether to post this here, or the Labour thread, or the Tory thread.

Whatever, it's a crying shame.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23220082.edinburghs-beloved-gorgie-farm-set-close-amid-rising-costs/

Shame. When the SNP ran Edinburgh they worked really hard to keep it open.

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Glory Lurker

30-12-2022, 01:40 PM

Not sure whether to post this here, or the Labour thread, or the Tory thread.

Whatever, it's a crying shame.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23220082.edinburghs-beloved-gorgie-farm-set-close-amid-rising-costs/

I don't think it rightly goes against any party. What is for sure though is that it really is a damn shame.

marinello59

30-12-2022, 01:51 PM

I don't think it rightly goes against any party. What is for sure though is that it really is a damn shame.

It doesn’t really. It’s had financial problems for years , budgets are tighter now than ever and as sad as it is things have to be prioritised.

greenginger

30-12-2022, 01:53 PM

T
Shame. When the SNP ran Edinburgh they worked really hard to keep it open.

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Gorgie Farm went in liquidation in 2019 when the SNP ran Edinburgh Council.

He's here!

30-12-2022, 01:55 PM

It doesn’t really. It’s had financial problems for years , budgets are tighter now than ever and as sad as it is things have to be prioritised.

One of my nephews used to help out there. Fun place and a shame to see it go.

However, there's been no council funding since 2019 when the Love charity took on the running of the farm, relying primarily on public funding. Sadly it's just one of many victims of circumstance in the current climate and is not a political issue. It would be better as a thread in its own right.

J-C

30-12-2022, 02:48 PM

T

Gorgie Farm went in liquidation in 2019 when the SNP ran Edinburgh Council.

Has always been run as a charity, they should've started charging people years ago instead of just asking for donations.

grunt

30-12-2022, 03:04 PM

Sadly it's just one of many victims of circumstance in the current climate and is not a political issue.
Of course it's a political issue. 12 years of Tory austerity policy and now the cost of living crisis have both decimated the charity sector as people no longer have free funds to donate. It is absolutely a political issue.

greenginger

30-12-2022, 06:17 PM

Of course it's a political issue. 12 years of Tory austerity policy and now the cost of living crisis have both decimated the charity sector as people no longer have free funds to donate. It is absolutely a political issue.

Charity giving in U K went up from £ 9.3 billion in 2012 to £ 11.3 billion in 2020.

Not exactly a decimation of the sector.

James310

30-12-2022, 06:25 PM

Of course it's a political issue. 12 years of Tory austerity policy and now the cost of living crisis have both decimated the charity sector as people no longer have free funds to donate. It is absolutely a political issue.

Why have donations to charity risen then? Your statement doesn't stand up to a simple fact check.

https://www.nptuk.org/philanthropic-resources/uk-charitable-giving-statistics/

The biggest donators are the people of London.

Hibs Class

30-12-2022, 07:20 PM

Why have donations to charity risen then? Your statement doesn't stand up to a simple fact check.

https://www.nptuk.org/philanthropic-resources/uk-charitable-giving-statistics/

The biggest donators are the people of London.

It would be interesting to see how the people of London’s donations were impacted if they were subject to Scottish income tax rates rather than the English ones.

Ozyhibby

30-12-2022, 07:21 PM

It would be interesting to see how the people of London’s donations were impacted if they were subject to Scottish income tax rates rather than the English ones.

Or Scottish wages.

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Bostonhibby

30-12-2022, 07:25 PM

It would be interesting to see how the people of London’s donations were impacted if they were subject to Scottish income tax rates rather than the English ones.

[emoji106]
Don't "public" Schools like Eton have charitable status and therefore have a distorting effect on what some people might see as good and honourable charitable intentions like giving the homeless somewhere to sleep, or feeding the hungry?

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CropleyWasGod

30-12-2022, 07:26 PM

Or Scottish wages.

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If there are more Higher Rate taxpayers in London than the rest of the country ( citation needed ), there will be a larger proportion who will be able to claim tax relief on their donations.

James310

30-12-2022, 07:27 PM

[emoji106]
Don't "public" Schools like Eton have charitable status and therefore have a distorting effect on what some people might see as good and honourable charitable intentions like giving the homeless somewhere to sleep, or feeding the hungry?

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"People in London are more likely to have given to causes supporting homeless people, housing and refuge shelters (25% vs 19% UK average). (1)"

Bostonhibby

30-12-2022, 07:35 PM

"People in London are more likely to have given to causes supporting homeless people, housing and refuge shelters (25% vs 19% UK average). (1)"[emoji106]

Sorry, posted in response to wrong post.

Point remains.

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marinello59

30-12-2022, 07:36 PM

[emoji106]
Don't "public" Schools like Eton have charitable status and therefore have a distorting effect on what some people might see as good and honourable charitable intentions like giving the homeless somewhere to sleep, or feeding the hungry?

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Edinburgh has plenty of those charitable schools as well. :greengrin

Bostonhibby

30-12-2022, 07:44 PM

Edinburgh has plenty of those charitable schools as well. :greengrinOnly too well aware.

Fabulously rich institutions get to remain even richer for the benefit of many who are already very rich, helps keep the rest in their place and perpetuate the next generation of leaders who won't make them pay tax either.

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Glory Lurker

30-12-2022, 07:45 PM

It would be interesting to see how the people of London’s donations were impacted if they were subject to Scottish income tax rates rather than the English ones.

Or if they were made by residents or london-based corporations.

What a load of crap this thread's become.

marinello59

30-12-2022, 08:03 PM

Or if they were made by residents or london-based corporations.

What a load of crap this thread's become.

It’s certainly taken a strange turn. The way charities are supported UK wide is heartwarming especially in times of economic turmoil. I’m struggling to understand exactly what point some are trying to make. Might just be me though. :greengrin

grunt

30-12-2022, 08:07 PM

Charity giving in U K went up from £ 9.3 billion in 2012 to £ 11.3 billion in 2020.

Why have donations to charity risen then? Your statement doesn't stand up to a simple fact check.

What is the impact of inflation on these figures?

You guys think that because you can find one report showing numbers which support your view that cancels out any further discussion. Not everything can be reduced to simple figures. As I've said many times before, these are complex issues we're talking about. Here's the Charities Aid Foundation report for 2022

https://www.cafonline.org/docs/default-source/about-us-research/uk_giving_2022.pdf

For every month of the year, donation levels in 2021 were lower than their equivalent in 2019, suggesting a substantial and established trend. The 2021 results started to improve towards the end of the year, with a third (33%) having given in November and 36% in December, but these results are still below the pre-pandemic figures for the same time of year.

Overall, during 2021 as a whole, the proportion who had given through donation or sponsorship in the past 12 months fell again to 57%, having decreased from 65% to 62% between 2019 and 2020. The decrease is particularly significant for giving through sponsorship; the proportion who had done this in the past 12 months fell significantly from 28% in 2020 to 22% in 2021.

The total amount donated in the UK during 2021 has decreased back to pre-pandemic levels, falling from £11.3 billion in 2020 to £10.7 billion in 2021. Whilst this is in line with pre-pandemic trends, against the recent backdrop of high inflation, it represents a decline in real terms.

Just under two thirds of people (62%) say they plan to cut back on discretionary spending to help them manage their bills. Around one in eight people (13%) are considering cutting back on donations to charity in the next six months whilst one in 12 people (8%) said they had already chosen not to make a one-off donation.

grunt

30-12-2022, 08:15 PM

What a load of crap this thread's become.

I’m struggling to understand exactly what point some are trying to make.

Summary for those who haven't been paying attention:

Gorgie farm to close
SNP blamed for not supporting it enough
Poster says that charities folding is not a political issue.
I call this out as being incorrect. I suggest that Tory austerity has led to people being worse off than they were in 2014, impacting charitable donations
There's a brief diversion while we discuss whether charities are in a better position now than they were when the Tories came to power. TL:DR They're not.
You've caught up.
Now let's get back to explaining how the SNP are lying *******s as well.

CropleyWasGod

30-12-2022, 08:19 PM

Summary for those who haven't been paying attention:

Gorgie farm to close
SNP blamed for not supporting it enough
Poster says that charities folding is not a political issue.
I call this out as being incorrect. I suggest that Tory austerity has led to people being worse off than they were in 2014, impacting charitable donations
There's a brief diversion while we discuss whether charities are in a better position now than they were when the Tories came to power. TL:DR They're not.
You've caught up.
Now let's get back to explaining how the SNP are lying *******s as well.

1. 1 was me.
2. Wish I hadn't bothered 😕
3. See your point 7

marinello59

30-12-2022, 08:20 PM

Summary for those who haven't been paying attention:

Gorgie farm to close
SNP blamed for not supporting it enough
Poster says that charities folding is not a political issue.
I call this out as being incorrect. I suggest that Tory austerity has led to people being worse off than they were in 2014, impacting charitable donations
There's a brief diversion while we discuss whether charities are in a better position now than they were when the Tories came to power. TL:DR They're not.
You've caught up.
Now let's get back to explaining how the SNP are lying *******s as well.

I don’t see why I was quoted there. But thanks for the explanation, I’ve pictured you writing it on a blackboard and turning round to throw your chalk at those of us not paying attention at the back. :greengrin