SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Kato]

so what has wee willie rennie been up to, another Libdem that picks on women (2) Emma Walker (@EmmaWalkerCEO) / X (twitter.com) (https://twitter.com/EmmaWalkerCEO) and it's not like co*k-hamilton to lie ehAll the features of a low rent cult.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67728915?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_format=link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_id=7F671470-9D70-11EE-8231-32D4E03B214A&at_link_type=web_link


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[RyeSloan]

No end to the SNP’s income tax game…

The putative 52% (Income + NI) for earnings between £43.5k and £50k remains.

And earnings over £100k to £125k will now be taxed at 69.5% I reckon. (45% rate + 22.5% for loss of personal allowance + 2% NI).

And a good dollop of fiscal drag on the band levels as well with even the intermediate band level not being raised.

[Pretty Boy]

Another additional tax bracket confirmed in the budget.

There were mixed views on the likely effectiveness of such a move so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I can't help but think that 6 different tax brackets in Scotland is reaching the point of overkill. There must be a way to simplify it.

[Paul1642]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67759418

New 45% tax band in Scotland for 75k - 125k. Top band also rising by 1%.

Can only be a good thing IMO. The whole public sector is a mess right now and money desperately needs to come from somewhere and this seems a good a place as any to try and make some.

The only risk as always with Scottish only tax hikes is pushing certain high paid jobs down south.

2% wasn’t such a large gap between Scotland and England however an extra 5% on 50k of income is a lot of money, as is 3% extra on anything thereafter.

Paying and extra 5k or so each year in tax might be enough to make someone reassess where they work or a business reassess where they base. Guess there’s no perfect solution (other than England raising its tax to match ours but seems very unlikely).

[hibee]

Just caught the end of it, sounds like they are hoping to raise £80m from taxing workers more but are spending £140m on a council tax freeze so still much worse off.

£1.5m for school meal debt, I don’t know what this is for. I guess it’s maybe parents who are not entitled to free school meals sending their kids for them anyway but not paying? My kids only left school a year ago but that wasn’t an option then, if you wanted a meal in the school you had to pay for it, there was no option to take the food and add it to your debt.

[greenginger]

You could see a lot of high earners decide to top up their pension funds taking a bigger chunk of their income out of the tax system altogether.

May even lead to an overall tax proceeds reduction.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231219/d8856dfc6e4d8dc956473ec018a66940.jpg


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[Paul1642]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231219/d8856dfc6e4d8dc956473ec018a66940.jpg


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A lot of extra tax for someone not earning outrageous amounts. £50k a year might be pretty good wages but if that person was the sole earner in a family £1500 is a big chunk extra to lose from your disposable income.

[Just Alf]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231219/d8856dfc6e4d8dc956473ec018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf this is accurate then the numbers may not be enough for many to pick up sticks and move down south, I do think however it would need to be supported by an improvement in services though.

On other hand, Labour in Wales seem to have gone all cost cutting (with a little tax hiking on businesses)

[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231219/d8856dfc6e4d8dc956473ec018a66940.jpg


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It will be B&M for the Christmas shopping in the Mathieson household. Talk about a double whammy.

[grunt]

It will be B&M for the Christmas shopping in the Mathieson household. Talk about a double whammy.

****in hilarious.

[Ozyhibby]

If this is accurate then the numbers may not be enough for many to pick up sticks and move down south, I do think however it would need to be supported by an improvement in services though.

On other hand, Labour in Wales seem to have gone all cost cutting (with a little tax hiking on businesses)

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


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[RyeSloan]

A lot of extra tax for someone not earning outrageous amounts. £50k a year might be pretty good wages but if that person was the sole earner in a family £1500 is a big chunk extra to lose from your disposable income.

It’s not £1,500k for a 50k earner tho.

Add in the NI trap and it’s £3k of a difference.

All those figures above £50k need that added on. It’s not income tax but it’s a direct salary tax so not sure why these tables always miss it out.

Larger sole earners get hammered by these tax rates compared to a dual income household that end up at the same top line that’s for sure.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not £1,500k for a 50k earner tho.

Add in the NI trap and it’s £3k of a difference.

All those figures above £50k need that added on. It’s not income tax but it’s a direct salary tax so not sure why these tables always miss it out.

Larger sole earners get hammered by these tax rates compared to a dual income household that end up at the same top line that’s for sure.

Is our NI different from England?


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[danhibees1875]

Where's the best place for a run down?

Specifically looking to see if we're matching the UK government with childcare expansion where rUK are rolling out funded childcare for children as young as 9 months eventually. I assume it would be now that any changes were announced on this front anyway.

[degenerated]

Is our NI different from England?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe difference according to HMRC is £1550 per annum and NI is exactly the same.

2751027511

[Ozyhibby]

The difference according to HMRC is £1550 per annum and NI is exactly the same.

2751027511

Thought so.


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[hibee]

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


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I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

[grunt]

I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

There's no answer to that. I'm moving to England tomorrow.

[Mibbes Aye]

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


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At the expense of public services.

We've been here a million times before - Scottish councils are having to slash services and these impact the most on the most vulnerable.

Nearly a quarter of Scottish councils have already warned that they will soon be unable to fulfil their statutory duties. More will follow. That is fundamental failure and it touches upon everyone's lives, from when your birth is registered to when your death is registered and a gazillion things inbetween.

And don't forget there is a funding drag at play - English councils were eighteen months to two years ahead of Scotland in feeling the pain. That's why English councils are issuing section 114s - bankruptcy - whereas Scottish councils are only teetering on the brink (it is a different piece of legislation here and it is section 95 of that, expect to hear that term far more frequently in the coming months).

[grunt]

We've been here a million times before - Scottish councils are having to slash services and these impact the most on the most vulnerable.

What do you suggest? You made a joke earlier when it was pointed out that SG was increasing income tax.

[Mibbes Aye]

What do you suggest? You made a joke earlier when it was pointed out that SG was increasing income tax.

Suggest for what?

I was pointing out the flaw in Ozy's post where he suggested the rise in income tax was offset by lower council tax. Even if that is true for everybody, everywhere, all of the time, which of course it isn't, it portrays lower council taxes as a virtue.

At this moment they are not. The kind of reductions councils have faced, are facing and will continue to face, damage communities and damage lives.

[hibee]

There's no answer to that. I'm moving to England tomorrow.

Make your way to the Westminster council area, they seem to be the cheapest.

[Andy Bee]

I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the average for a Band D in England is £2065, I'm a Band E and pay £2312 but that includes water. The English figure needs approx £450 - £500 added on for water. TBF the lowest council tax charge in the country is in England, 2 guesses the area that charges under a grand for a property worth just short of £1m?

[Andy Bee]

Make your way to the Westminster council area, they seem to be the cheapest.

Ahh beat me to it :greengrin

[hibee]

Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the average for a Band D in England is £2065, I'm a Band E and pay £2312 but that includes water. The English figure needs approx £450 - £500 added on for water. TBF the lowest council tax charge in the country is in England, 2 guesses the area that charges under a grand for a property worth just short of £1m?

I just looked at a few council websites for the charges.

We pay £3058 for band F which is for valuations up to £106k, Sunderland pay £2,320.16 for their band E which is for valuations up to £120k but live in Westminster and you only pay £1,114 for the same band!

[Ozyhibby]

The SG have frozen Council tax which is not linked to ability to pay and have put up the taxes of high earners linked to their ability to pay. That used to be the sort of thing Labour applauded. Changed days.


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[RyeSloan]

Is our NI different from England?


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NI is charged using rUK tax bands.

So 12% (soon to be 10%) up to £50k and 2% after. Matches the tax band of 20% then 40%. So effective 32% and 42% rates.

Scotland’s higher (or not so higher now!) tax band starts at £43.5k so that’s where the kicker comes in as the NI rate is not reduced until £50k. So a marginal rate of 54% in that bracket just now.

Edit: To be fair though I have had a wee double count earlier ;-). The difference is indeed 20% but only on the total of about £7k so the c£1.5k more is correct. Happy to admit my arithmetic is not always best and stand corrected [emoji736][emoji2957].

[Mibbes Aye]

The SG have frozen Council tax which is not linked to ability to pay and have put up the taxes of high earners linked to their ability to pay. That used to be the sort of thing Labour applauded. Changed days.


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Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

[Ozyhibby]

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

It’s been funded by raising income tax.
Has Labour in Wales come up with a better solution?


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[Andy Bee]

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.


It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

[JimBHibees]

It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

Yep working poor are an enormous issue poverty wise. Watched c4 news a family in Birmingham both working guy was an electrician with a couple of kids all living in a single bed and breakfast room as couldn't afford private landlord rent. Absolutely heartbreaking to be honest. Despicable what this government has been able to get away with by not helping families like this.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231219/d8856dfc6e4d8dc956473ec018a66940.jpg


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I'm pretty much bang in the middle of that table and basically pay UK income tax in a simplified process but German social security, health insurance, pension payments, unemployment insurance and nursing care insurance. Long story short I pay a **** load more tax than your average UK citizen but am happy to do so because the return in services I get is worth every penny and it's not only me that benefits from those services but society as a whole. If it's put into value for money context then those who earn the least get the best value and that's how it should be and that's what the Scottish Government are trying to emulate, albeit with one hand tied behind their backs.

[Paul1642]

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

The flip side of this is that the poorest also aren’t going to be hit by the income tax rate changes at all because they are either also exempt (if earning below the tax free allowance) or earning well below the higher bands (especially if they are also paying into a pension.

There are however a lot of people earning a salary well below the amount required to be hit by the new tax rates who live in Council tax band D or E houses who have just avoided a £100 - £200 annual increase on their bills as well as saving 2% on NI.

It’s been done to death on this forum and I’m not looking to start another council tax debate however at least income tax is relative to income rather than your homes value 35 years ago which also benefits certain richer people who’s now very valuable home is in a location which is much more desirable now than it was 35 years ago (much of leith for example).

[Paul1642]

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/

Money saving expert have a handy tax calculator which lets you factor in pension contributions, tax code as well as being a Scottish tax payer (probably not yet updated with yesterdays changes).

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s been funded by raising income tax.


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That’s not true.

COSLA (incidentally chaired by an SNP councillor) released a statement last night saying the budget left a shortfall of £350 million for next year.

Are you saying they are lying?

[Mibbes Aye]

It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

I take your point, it’s true. As COSLA have stated already, the commitment from SG leaves them hundreds of millions short though.

And when I talk about the most vulnerable I do sort of mean the working poor too. The cuts to non-statutory council services hit them harder than they do to someone who is middle income or richer.

[grunt]

Suggest for what?
What would you suggest the Scottish Budget should include? You're very quick to say that this is wrong and that won't work, I'd like to hear what your Scottish Budget would look like, and how you'd avoid all the problems you point out from the SNP budget.

[Mibbes Aye]

The flip side of this is that the poorest also aren’t going to be hit by the income tax rate changes at all because they are either also exempt (if earning below the tax free allowance) or earning well below the higher bands (especially if they are also paying into a pension.

There are however a lot of people earning a salary well below the amount required to be hit by the new tax rates who live in Council tax band D or E houses who have just avoided a £100 - £200 annual increase on their bills as well as saving 2% on NI.

It’s been done to death on this forum and I’m not looking to start another council tax debate however at least income tax is relative to income rather than your homes value 35 years ago which also benefits certain richer people who’s now very valuable home is in a location which is much more desirable now than it was 35 years ago (much of leith for example).

Well, let’s face it, the party in power came into government with a promise to reform a broken system of local government finance. They have only had 16 years though…….

[Mibbes Aye]

What would you suggest the Scottish Budget should include? You're very quick to say that this is wrong and that won't work, I'd like to hear what your Scottish Budget would look like, and how you'd avoid all the problems you point out from the SNP budget.

Behave yourself! As a citizen and a taxpayer why shouldn’t I be free to criticise either of these two stale, out of ideas, fag-end governments?

They are just so, so poor!

[Ozyhibby]

Behave yourself! As a citizen and a taxpayer why shouldn’t I be free to criticise either of these two stale, out of ideas, fag-end governments?

They are just so, so poor!

Who would do better? The evidence from Wales suggests not the Labour Party.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Who would do better?


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Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

[JimBHibees]

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when they see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

Conflating both governments isn't fair imo.

[Ozyhibby]

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

So nobody else could do better? Fair enough.


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[Mibbes Aye]

So nobody else could do better? Fair enough.


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Oh, I think a balloon with a face painted on it, tied to the top of a broomstick could do better. Unfortunately we got Humza and Shona instead 😢

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

That sounds like a great argument for independence rather than the same pish the current system has given us for decades if not centuries. There's no real reform on offer from Labour.

[Ozyhibby]

That sounds like a great argument for independence rather than the same pish the current system has given us for decades if not centuries. There's no real reform on offer from Labour.

To be fair, he’s admitting that Labour don’t offer better. And we can see that with Wales.
There is plenty the SG are getting wrong but also a lot right.


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[weecounty hibby]

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

That's a terrible argument. At the moment it looks likely that Labour will continue with most of the Tory policies that has seen the UK become a laughing stock. They hardly have a unique policy of their own. The kind of tax system introduced yesterday used to be what Labour believed in but are niw too scared to even contemplate. The evidence that Labour could do better in Scotland is not supported by the fact that in Wales they actually do worse. And I think that the two bankrupt councils in England were Labour controlled. So forgive me if i dont believe that anything much will get better under Labour.The Scottish government could do better in some areas but I'm glad that it's SNP run and not Tory or tory lite.

[Mibbes Aye]

To be fair, he’s admitting that Labour don’t offer better. And we can see that with Wales.
There is plenty the SG are getting wrong but also a lot right.


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I like evidence. Let's wait and see if the voters return a Labur government. For the moment it's just desperation tactics by the two parties and their diehards that have held the pursestrings trying to justify over a decade's worth of failure.

You said that the rise in ncome tax was funding the council tax freeze. COSLA says otherwise. Who is in the wrong here, or dare I suggest,who isn't telling the truth?

[RyeSloan]

Would be interesting to see some debate on HOW money is spent rather than HOW MUCH money is spent.

I always see politicians suggesting spending more in the answer and it’s an ‘investment’. Yet we seem to get less and less for more and more.

1 in 5 people in Scotland now work in the public sector and those numbers are pretty much at a near record level (using Scot Official Stats) yet we always seem to be one step away from a crisis and have constant ’cuts’ headlines.

Tax rates seem to have been heading higher for a long time yet still we have black holes and skint councils.

Must admit it’s an equation I’m struggling to square.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's a terrible argument. At the moment it looks likely that Labour will continue with most of the Tory policies that has seen the UK become a laughing stock. They hardly have a unique policy of their own. The kind of tax system introduced yesterday used to be what Labour believed in but are niw too scared to even contemplate. The evidence that Labour could do better in Scotland is not supported by the fact that in Wales they actually do worse. And I think that the two bankrupt councils in England were Labour controlled. So forgive me if i dont believe that anything much will get better under Labour.The Scottish government could do better in some areas but I'm glad that it's SNP run and not Tory or tory lite.

The two most recent were Labour-run, the two previous had been Conservative. There isn't really a strong corelation except for one thing IMO. It's worth bearing in mind that council areas that vote Labour tend to require greater expenditure on statutory services , as they disproprionately feature more areas of socio-economic deprivation.So, they have more they are legally obliged to fund with less resource.

The rest of your post is just your opinion, you are entitled to that, I welcome it. I don't put too much stock in polls but they are healthy for Labour. I also know that there has been a lot of discipline about talking policy until we actually get into the pre-election phase and rightly so.

That must be a worry for the SNP, especially the Westminster folk, Still, it would explain why their leader in the Commons spends more time having a go at Labour than the Tories. Flynny's got the fear :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Would be interesting to see some debate on HOW money is spent rather than HOW MUCH money is spent.

I always see politicians suggesting spending more in the answer and it’s an ‘investment’. Yet we seem to get less and less for more and more.

1 in 5 people in Scotland now work in the public sector and those numbers are pretty much at a near record level (using Scot Official Stats) yet we always seem to be one step away from a crisis and have constant ’cuts’ headlines.

Tax rates seem to have been heading higher for a long time yet still we have black holes and skint councils.

Must admit it’s an equation I’m struggling to square.

I agree and I think there has been some attempt to shift away from measuring activity in outputs to measuring activity in outcomes. It is more difficult to track these though, whether at a personal level, a programme level or a population level. And many need to be measured over many years, whereas politics operates within the bounds of the electoral cycle.

[Mibbes Aye]

That sounds like a great argument for independence rather than the same pish the current system has given us for decades if not centuries. There's no real reform on offer from Labour.

If the SNP are so constrained at Holyrood then why are they taking the ministerial salaries and making policy?

Why not push for their goal from the outside, because they are doing a rubbish job of achieving it from the inside.

I see they dropped their legal challenge to the S35 order this week, as well as quietly binning the NAtional Care Service proposals.

[Ozyhibby]

I like evidence. Let's wait and see if the voters return a Labur government. For the moment it's just desperation tactics by the two parties and their diehards that have held the pursestrings trying to justify over a decade's worth of failure.

You said that the rise in ncome tax was funding the council tax freeze. COSLA says otherwise. Who is in the wrong here, or dare I suggest,who isn't telling the truth?

The UK govt control Scotlands purse strings. It’s why the budget has fallen more than 10% in last 13 years. All the SG can do is mitigate the damage. You know that though.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The UK govt control Scotlands purse strings. It’s why the budget has fallen more than 10% in last 13 years. All the SG can do is mitigate the damage. You know that though.


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You are still evading the question. You said the income tax rise funded the council tax freeze. COSLA says that's rubbish.

Who is telling the truth here? You, or COSLA?

[grunt]

Oh, I think a balloon with a face painted on it, tied to the top of a broomstick could do better.
We're still no nearer hearing what wonder policies MA's balloon would have. Easy to snipe at those in power; less easy to suggest alternative policies it would seem.

[grunt]

You are still evading the question.
:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

We're still no nearer hearing what wonder policies MA's balloon would have. Easy to snipe at those in power; less easy to suggest alternative policies it would seem.

I think you should get your own house in order, before accusing others of sniping without offering an alternative. I can't recall anything different from you.

And how far does your 'logic' extend? Can I be critical of a Hibs performance without offering a detailed breakdown on what the training regime and signing policies are? This site would be dead if that was the case. And if you want me to come up with a Scottish budget, give me a year, a minister's salary and an army of civil servants, researchers and evidence papers. That's what a finance minister has. I would be up for the challenge.

I've said I think independence is not the best outcome for Scotland and posted (a few times) with a detailed alternative. I've posted frequently on the NHS and social care in Scotland, criticising Scottish Government and suggesting what they should do differently. The National Care Service was a perfect example - Humza was bigging it up massively about a year and a half ago and I said it was utterly flawed and explained why. I have also repeatedly stated what I think we should be doing. A year and a half later, with no progress, the NCS has been unceremoniously dumped, hidden away in a massively-long letter from the minister, responding to the Health and Sport Committee's direct questions.

Your problem with anyone being critical of SG is because you can't refute the criticisms. If you could, you would have.

[grunt]

I think you should get your own house in order, before accusing others of sniping without offering an alternative. I can't recall anything different from you.
My house is in perfect order, thank you. And I'm not criticising SG because I'm pretty happy with what they're doing. You on the other hand don't like anything they're doing and snark at every announcement, and yet refrain from actually proposing any alternative. Even when they do what you want (e.g. cancelling NCS) you even complain about that? Bizarre behaviour, frankly.

[RyeSloan]

I agree and I think there has been some attempt to shift away from measuring activity in outputs to measuring activity in outcomes. It is more difficult to track these though, whether at a personal level, a programme level or a population level. And many need to be measured over many years, whereas politics operates within the bounds of the electoral cycle.

Ahh you mean like using things like TIMMS and PIRLS to measure success of education policies? If only we had had them since 2010 we might have some answers by now [emoji12]

[Hibrandenburg]

If the SNP are so constrained at Holyrood then why are they taking the ministerial salaries and making policy?

Why not push for their goal from the outside, because they are doing a rubbish job of achieving it from the inside.

I see they dropped their legal challenge to the S35 order this week, as well as quietly binning the NAtional Care Service proposals.

I'm damn well glad they're taking the salary and trying to mitigate the most incompetent/corrupt Westminster government in my lifetime if not ever. Imagine having a Tory or Labour Scottish government rubber stamping all that heads Scotland's way from Westminster.

I'm actually starting to hope that Labour get to form the next Scottish government, it can only end up rubbing the Scottish electorate up the wrong way as Starmer has already made it obvious he doesn't think he needs to woo them.

[Just Alf]

The two most recent were Labour-run, the two previous had been Conservative. There isn't really a strong corelation except for one thing IMO. It's worth bearing in mind that council areas that vote Labour tend to require greater expenditure on statutory services , as they disproprionately feature more areas of socio-economic deprivation.So, they have more they are legally obliged to fund with less resource.



A bit like the Scottish government then?

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm damn well glad they're taking the salary and trying to mitigate the most incompetent/corrupt Westminster government in my lifetime if not ever. Imagine having a Tory or Labour Scottish government rubber stamping all that heads Scotland's way from Westminster.

I'm actually starting to hope that Labour get to form the next Scottish government, it can only end up rubbing the Scottish electorate up the wrong way as Starmer has already made it obvious he doesn't think he needs to woo them.

I'm really sorry but is there an actual point in there or just hyperbolic hot air? Given we have such an incompetent Scottish government running health, education and loads more, who is going to mitigate that?

I see the A9 dualling has been pushed back another ten years. They said it would be done by 2025. Now it is 2035.

They really are cramming as many u-turns, reversals and dropped policies as they can, hoping Christmas will distract us from yet more failure.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ahh you mean like using things like TIMMS and PIRLS to measure success of education policies? If only we had had them since 2010 we might have some answers by now [emoji12]

Indeed.

Although I still yearn for some really well-crafted longitudinal evaluation in education. That would help catalyse positive change.

Likewise with health, there is no real grasp of qualitative data, just out-of-context quantitative, usually used as a proxy.

This might be a bit niche for this thread :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

My house is in perfect order, thank you. And I'm not criticising SG because I'm pretty happy with what they're doing. You on the other hand don't like anything they're doing and snark at every announcement, and yet refrain from actually proposing any alternative. Even when they do what you want (e.g. cancelling NCS) you even complain about that? Bizarre behaviour, frankly.

What is bizarre is Humza shouting from the rooftops about how our shiny new National Care Service was the answer, triggering massive uncertainty in the sector and suggesting another bout of structural reform that completely misses the point.

Then when reality sinks in, trying to bury its demise in a letter to Committee. That suggests a lack of courage, lack of principle and lack of transparency to me.

As for me being critical of everything SG does, that is untrue. I have offered praise in the past, admittedly not very often, but then again I think they have botched so much of their devolved powers. More importantly, I can and do explain why I think it is bad policy. But I've never seen you come up with any counter to that. You should really treat their hype with more caution.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm really sorry but is there an actual point in there or just hyperbolic hot air? Given we have such an incompetent Scottish government running health, education and loads more, who is going to mitigate that?

I see the A9 dualling has been pushed back another ten years. They said it would be done by 2025. Now it is 2035.

They really are cramming as many u-turns, reversals and dropped policies as they can, hoping Christmas will distract us from yet more failure.

OK, good to know where you stand on the corruption and incompetence of this UK government, you think that's hyperbole.

As for the rest I agree with you, the SNP have lost the plot on a lot of things, but that makes the fact there is no better alternative even sadder.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that the usual suspects are back.

Oh look, the Scottish Government and Westminster government are terrible, but no mention of the Welsh government. I wonder why? (actually I don't!)

Not one suggestion as to a solution though!

[RyeSloan]

The UK govt control Scotlands purse strings. It’s why the budget has fallen more than 10% in last 13 years. All the SG can do is mitigate the damage. You know that though.


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Where’s the stats on the 10% thing?

I’ve tried to find such a number, indeed tried to find historical real terms numbers, but it’s not overly obvious.

I did find this (https://www.scotfact.com/ScottishBudgetHistorical ) which suggests something rather different so I’m genuinely curious if you have a source that shows the real terms change over that time frame.

[Mibbes Aye]

OK, good to know where you stand on the corruption and incompetence of this UK government, you think that's hyperbole.

As for the rest I agree with you, the SNP have lost the plot on a lot of things, but that makes the fact there is no better alternative even sadder.

I have no issue with calling out the Tories, that's not what I was referring to as hyperbole.

[Mibbes Aye]

I see that the usual suspects are back.

Oh look, the Scottish Government and Westminster government are terrible, but no mention of the Welsh government. I wonder why? (actually I don't!)

Not one suggestion as to a solution though!

Is this the best response anyone has to criticism of SG?

"Aye but Wales" :faf:

[Jack]

Is this the best response anyone has to criticism of SG?

"Aye but Wales" :faf:

It's not that funny if you live in Wales. It's a nightmare!

[Mibbes Aye]

It's not that funny if you live in Wales. It's a nightmare!

I know. The 'funny' is how some can''t respond to fact-based criticism but resort to whataboutery.

I don't have more than a cursory knowledge of public services in Wales. Like everywhere else it is a mixed bag. Their waiting times for treatment and average lengths of stay are pretty grim but they can legitimately say their demographic is tougher for older people and for older people with long-term conditions.

They do give social care a higher spending priority than the rest of the home nations (I think) but that doesnt appear to translate into reduced length of stay, although we really are talking proxy measures here. And we should acknowledge that the devolution settlement is somewhat different to that of Scotland's.

Interestingly, though it might not be good news in health and social care, they are actually good at understanding why, from the perspective of the person experiencing care. They have done some solid work on capturing qualititave outcomes based on lived experience.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/keithbrownsnp/status/1737510631673077863?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Not wrong.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/5c1f75f82dfa4c9c8b2c571eac414b0b.jpg

Labour in Wales.


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[Moulin Yarns]

On nhs waiting times, my wife had an out patient appointment yesterday at ninewells, Dundee. Instead of referring her for another appointment for a scan they brought a portable scanner to out patients and did the scan the same day. Saved us another 2 hours round trip.

[Jack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231221/5c1f75f82dfa4c9c8b2c571eac414b0b.jpg

Labour in Wales.


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The torys have never made a secret of their hatred of devolution.

There was one, I can't remember who, who said the thing to do to make them unpopular was to slowly restrict the money going to the devolved nations. That they looked incompetent and couldn't run a bath never mind a country.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is this the best response anyone has to criticism of SG?

"Aye but Wales" :faf:

Credit where credit is due.

https://www.gov.wales/first-minister-visits-worlds-first-town-to-try-digital-bottle-recycling#:~:text=Brecon%20is%20the%20first%20town ,take%20part%20in%20the%20scheme.


Welsh government is first to implement a deposit return scheme in the UK. If only the Scottish Government was allowed to do exactly the same!!!

[JimBHibees]

The torys have never made a secret of their hatred of devolution.

There was one, I can't remember who, who said the thing to do to make them unpopular was to slowly restrict the money going to the devolved nations. That they looked incompetent and couldn't run a bath never mind a country.

Undoubtedly been a planned campaign with media in tow. Belittling the devolved parliaments with the internal market bill and stopping devolved legislation. Despicable really and a shame so many seem ok with democratically elected parliaments being undermined

[Just Alf]

https://www.threads.net/@thesnp/post/C1FIyQitEdK/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Sorry not sure that worked properly :-/

Threads link re Scottish and Welsh devolved governments having the exact same view on their reduced block grants...

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/stephenflynnsnp/status/1709108899956093089?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Ozyhibby]

SNP minister goes on holiday during the holidays. This is an outrage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231231/34cc7d995af3088ee87efeb220bcb714.jpg


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[grunt]

SNP minister goes on holiday during the holidays. This is an outrage.
Expect this and much more in 2024, election year. The right wing press and the Government working together, no constraints on them whatsoever. Buckle up.

[degenerated]

SNP minister goes on holiday during the holidays. This is an outrage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231231/34cc7d995af3088ee87efeb220bcb714.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkPaul hutcheon has really dragged the political wing of the daily redcoat/Sunday mason down to the same levels that Keith Jackson took their sports coverage to.

[JimBHibees]

SNP minister goes on holiday during the holidays. This is an outrage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231231/34cc7d995af3088ee87efeb220bcb714.jpg


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Ffs

[Keith_M]

SNP minister goes on holiday during the holidays. This is an outrage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231231/34cc7d995af3088ee87efeb220bcb714.jpg


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That's pretty pathetic stuff.

[marinello59]

Brian Soutar looks to have been wooed back in to the SNP fold by Yousaf. That’s pretty disappointing for a lot of members I would imagine..

[marinello59]

That's pretty pathetic stuff.

It is.
They should be attacking her for her utter incompetence as a minister. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Brian Soutar looks to have been wooed back in to the SNP fold by Yousaf. That’s pretty disappointing for a lot of members I would imagine..

Cherry for one. :agree:

[grunt]

Cherry for one. :agree:

Cherry is only SNP by name.

[Stairway 2 7]

Soutar is a horrible bigot. SNP should have nothing to do with him, green's reportedly rightly unhappy with it

[Stairway 2 7]

No snp related but how stupid must you be to be a smack dealer if your brother in law is first minister

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/4866580/humza-yousaf-el-nakla-heroin-court/

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24051569.hundreds-scottish-government-staff-pay-lower-tax-rates-england/?ref=twtrec

Some top quality journalism there. Turns out people who live in England pay tax on England. Who knew?


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24051569.hundreds-scottish-government-staff-pay-lower-tax-rates-england/?ref=twtrec

Some top quality journalism there. Turns out people who live in England pay tax on England. Who knew?


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Just an cheap ploy to get the higher taxes in people's thoughts

[Ozyhibby]

Just an cheap ploy to get the higher taxes in people's thoughts

Surely they will run a story soon on the people who work in London but choose to live in Scotland? That must be a huge embarrassment for the UK govt?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Surely they will run a story soon on the people who work in London but choose to live in Scotland? That must be a huge embarrassment for the UK govt?


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I'd be doubtful ha. It's such a ridiculous article. There will be more of it in the spring when the tories cynically cut taxes to try a last gasp change in fortunes

[Jack]

I'm sure if research was done we'd find out more than 1 in 50 tory MPs/Lords haven't/don't pay the taxes they should.

[Berwickhibby]

I'm sure if research was done we'd find out more than 1 in 50 tory MPs/Lords haven't/don't pay the taxes they should.

I think the numbers would be higher, includes lots of wealthy people who have accountants to move money and avoid taxation

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe the article is suggesting the SG refuses to hire people who live in England?


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[Paul1642]

No snp related but how stupid must you be to be a smack dealer if your brother in law is first minister

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/4866580/humza-yousaf-el-nakla-heroin-court/

At the end of the day you can’t control your family, however it is a bit ironic that if you applied for the police and your bother in law was a documented drug dealer you would fail the vetting, yet Humzas brother in law was presumably at it whilst he was the Justice secretary 🤦*♂️

[hibee]

No snp related but how stupid must you be to be a smack dealer if your brother in law is first minister

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/4866580/humza-yousaf-el-nakla-heroin-court/


At the end of the day you can’t control your family, however it is a bit ironic that if you applied for the police and your bother in law was a documented drug dealer you would fail the vetting, yet Humzas brother in law was presumably at it whilst he was the Justice secretary 🤦*♂️

Looks like he was arrested again right after the court appearance in connection with a man falling from the window of a flat.

https://news.sky.com/story/first-minister-humza-yousafs-brother-in-law-arrested-over-window-fall-incident-13049499

[marinello59]

I'd be doubtful ha. It's such a ridiculous article. There will be more of it in the spring when the tories cynically cut taxes to try a last gasp change in fortunes

You mean a panic driven back of the fag packet council tax freeze style thing?:greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Looks like he was arrested again right after the court appearance in connection with a man falling from the window of a flat.

https://news.sky.com/story/first-minister-humza-yousafs-brother-in-law-arrested-over-window-fall-incident-13049499

The spokeswoman for drugs and alcohol on Dundee City Council is Humza’s sister in law. The brother in law is in big trouble. Absolute madness. What a family.

[Ozyhibby]

The spokeswoman for drugs and alcohol on Dundee City Council is Humza’s sister in law. The brother in law is in big trouble. Absolute madness. What a family.

One member of a family is arrested and the rest of the family is tarnished?


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[Berwickhibby]

One member of a family is arrested and the rest of the family is tarnished?


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You must be the only person that doesn’t see the irony

[Stairway 2 7]

One member of a family is arrested and the rest of the family is tarnished?


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Sunak was slammed by some because his father in law dealt with Russia. The FM is going to get heat because his brother in law dealt smack. Both unfair though obviously.

In other news the brother in law has been arrested a second time in connection with a person going out a window

[hibee]

The spokeswoman for drugs and alcohol on Dundee City Council is Humza’s sister in law. The brother in law is in big trouble. Absolute madness. What a family.

Are you sure it’s his sister in law, I thought it was his wife?

[Berwickhibby]

Are you sure it’s his sister in law, I thought it was his wife?

You appear to be correct …the Dundee courier article stated Sister in Law initially…however it’s been edited to say that it’s Youseless’s wife Nadia

[wookie70]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24051569.hundreds-scottish-government-staff-pay-lower-tax-rates-england/?ref=twtrec

Some top quality journalism there. Turns out people who live in England pay tax on England. Who knew?


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I'm certainly aware that they get to pay less tax on their wage. Then again they also get less services for that tax and it is hard to stop due to home working and the fact we were stupid enough not to leave the UK. It is more the money going out of the wider Scottish economy that rips my knitting. Most of the workers I am aware of are contingent workers earning over 200K a year but they presumably won't be counted as they are talking about employees.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm certainly aware that they get to pay less tax on their wage. Then again they also get less services for that tax and it is hard to stop due to home working and the fact we were stupid enough not to leave the UK. It is more the money going out of the wider Scottish economy that rips my knitting. Most of the workers I am aware of are contingent workers earning over 200K a year but they presumably won't be counted as they are talking about employees.

I’m sure it’s more than cancelled out by Scots working down south and living here.


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[wookie70]

I’m sure it’s more than cancelled out by Scots working down south and living here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk In government jobs? May be some but not something I am aware of.

[Ozyhibby]

In government jobs? May be some but not something I am aware of.

My mate works for the civil service in London in Whitehall. Lives in Corstorphine.


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[marinello59]

Swinney and Sturgeon outdo Boris Johnson by deleting all of their whatsapp messages. Anything Westminster can do, Holyrood can do better. :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68032233

[Berwickhibby]

Swinney and Sturgeon outdo Boris Johnson by deleting all of their whatsapp messages. Anything Westminster can do, Holyrood can do better. :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68032233

Are you suggesting that Saint Sturgeon and Swinney deleted their WhatsApp messages intentionally :whistle::whistle:

[hibee]

Are you suggesting that Saint Sturgeon and Swinney deleted their WhatsApp messages intentionally :whistle::whistle:

Looks like it was definitely intentional, quotes from messages they did see at the enquiry confirm it.

Ken Thomson, the Scottish Government’s director general of strategy and external affairs, posting to a group chat: “I feel moved at this point to remind you that this channel is FOI-recoverable”.

He accompanied the message with an emoji of a face with a mouth zipped shut.

Jason Leitch replies: "WhatsApp deletion is a pre-bed ritual'.

Politicians are all as bad as each other, wouldn’t mind seeing the results of an FOI on Humzas messages this week though!

[lapsedhibee]

Politicians are all as bad as each other, wouldn’t mind seeing the results of an FOI on Humzas messages this week though!

If Sturgeon is lying repeatedly about how her messages came to be deleted, then there may be an equivalence with Johnson and Sunak. If not, not.

[Keith_M]

Just been reading about NS deleting WhatsApp messages from during Covid and, if it actually happened in the way it's been reported, then it doesn't look good.

I'm interested to hear her side of this.

[Berwickhibby]

Just been reading about NS deleting WhatsApp messages from during Covid and, if it actually happened in the way it's been reported, then it doesn't look good.

I'm interested to hear her side of this.

With her amnesia she won’t be able to recall or remember 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Pretty Boy]

Just been reading about NS deleting WhatsApp messages from during Covid and, if it actually happened in the way it's been reported, then it doesn't look good.

I'm interested to hear her side of this.

Is anyone really surprised? I mean if they were being totally honest with themselves.

All the 'oh Nicola was so different from other politicians' stuff was deep down just partisan loyalty overriding good judgement. Getting to the top in politics isn't for people who are squeaky clean. There are probably a fair few career back benchers who are decent sorts but reaching the pinnacle in a dirty game requires a degree of dirty play. There is plenty evidence Nicola Sturgeon wasn't immune in that regard.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/heraldscotland/status/1748370182647460203?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

The current weakness of the SNP will embolden Labour and the Tories to start looking at policies like this. Both would dearly love to get rid of free education but have been afraid to say so. It won’t be long before we start to hear this more often.


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[Jack]

It would appear civil servants have urged politicians, probably in line with normal procedures written long before covid, to delete the messages.

If that's the case then so be it.

Who, when social media messaging became a thing, decided they should be deleted? Whoever it was is the villain not the politicians and civil servants who are now taking the flack. IMO!

[Jack]

https://x.com/heraldscotland/status/1748370182647460203?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

The current weakness of the SNP will embolden Labour and the Tories to start looking at policies like this. Both would dearly love to get rid of free education but have been afraid to say so. It won’t be long before we start to hear this more often.


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That.

Free prescriptions.

Baby boxes.

Mitigating against Westminster induced poverty.

Etc. Etc.

I'd imagine the formerly traditional Scottish Labour voter, going back to Labour from the SNP will be among the hardest hit.

[Hibrandenburg]

It would appear civil servants have urged politicians, probably in line with normal procedures written long before covid, to delete the messages.

If that's the case then so be it.

Who, when social media messaging became a thing, decided they should be deleted? Whoever it was is the villain not the politicians and civil servants who are now taking the flack. IMO!

Didn't Sturgeon say she didn't use WhatsApp to discuss Covid?

If there were specific groups set up in WhatsApp to discuss government business then I'd get all the fuss, that would be like deleting the minutes from official government meetings and absolutely outrageous. Expecting politicians to expose their private chats is ridiculous IMO, why should they and FWIW I felt the same about the Tories being asked the same.

My private WhatsApp gets automatically deleted after 90 days, where's the problem with that?

[McD]

It would appear civil servants have urged politicians, probably in line with normal procedures written long before covid, to delete the messages.

If that's the case then so be it.

Who, when social media messaging became a thing, decided they should be deleted? Whoever it was is the villain not the politicians and civil servants who are now taking the flack. IMO!



I could be wrong, didn’t NS publicly decry Westminster politicians for WhatsApp messages being deleted?

[Ozyhibby]

I could be wrong, didn’t NS publicly decry Westminster politicians for WhatsApp messages being deleted?

Don’t think so.


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[Berwickhibby]

Didn't Sturgeon say she didn't use WhatsApp to discuss Covid?

If there were specific groups set up in WhatsApp to discuss government business then I'd get all the fuss, that would be like deleting the minutes from official government meetings and absolutely outrageous. Expecting politicians to expose their private chats is ridiculous IMO, why should they and FWIW I felt the same about the Tories being asked the same.

My private WhatsApp gets automatically deleted after 90 days, where's the problem with that?

Your right the fuss is because they were group chats that were set up “ Covid Outbreak” and later “Omicron” to discuss the pandemic

[RyeSloan]

August 2021….

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1718577918295597313

I suppose you could argue she committed to giving the inquiry what ever they wanted when they ask for it, not that she committed to keeping what she knew they would ask for!

Hard to tell tho as it’s a classic Nicola answer.

[Hibrandenburg]

Your right the fuss is because they were group chats that were set up “ Covid Outbreak” and later “Omicron” to discuss the pandemic

If Sturgeon posted in these groups then those posts will still be out there, even if she's deleted them from her phone. If they're still out there then they will see the light of day.

[Berwickhibby]

If Sturgeon posted in these groups then those posts will still be out there, even if she's deleted them from her phone. If they're still out there then they will see the light of day.

I think you should pass your WhatsApp technical knowledge to the Covid Enquiry as it appears that the deletions that cannot be recovered from these groups is the main issue.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you should pass your WhatsApp technical knowledge to the Covid Enquiry as it appears that the deletions that cannot be recovered from these groups is the main issue.

Sturgeon has said she didn't manage covid via WhatsApp, if she did then these posts will be on the other people who were in the group's phones. Where are they?

Yet another smoking gun.

[Stairway 2 7]

August 2021….

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1718577918295597313

I suppose you could argue she committed to giving the inquiry what ever they wanted when they ask for it, not that she committed to keeping what she knew they would ask for!

Hard to tell tho as it’s a classic Nicola answer.

That's the clip that will have her done from the public. Imagine saying this then continuing to delete WhatsApps for another two years of covid.The militant wing of SNP will defend it but its inexcusable.

On the 12th of May 21 its announced the Covid inquiry will require all communications, on the 13th Jason Leitch is laughing with SNP staff that it's his bed time ritual to delete the WhatsApps.

Last year when the Times said a source told them Jason Leitch deleted his emails every day the Scottish Government said "It is not correct to suggest that the National Clinical Director deleted every WhatsApp message every day."

Politicians are all the the same rouges wearing different rosettes. I'll say the same as others on here said when Boris and Rishi never handed messages, they should be prosecuted

Kate forbes played a blinder when she repeatedly and deliberately said it was obvious that WhatsApps should be kept for the enquiry, right under the bus.

[Pretty Boy]

That's the clip that will have her done from the public. Imagine saying this then continuing to delete WhatsApps for another two years of covid.The militant wing of SNP will defend it but its inexcusable.

On the 12th of May 21 its announced the Covid inquiry will require all communications, on the 13th Jason Leitch is laughing with SNP staff that it's his bed time ritual to delete the WhatsApps.

Last year when the Times said a source told them Jason Leitch deleted his emails every day the Scottish Government said "It is not correct to suggest that the National Clinical Director deleted every WhatsApp message every day."

Politicians are all the the same rouges wearing different rosettes. I'll say the same as others on here said when Boris and Rishi never handed messages, they should be prosecuted

Kate forbes played a blinder when she repeatedly and deliberately said it was obvious that WhatsApps should be kept for the enquiry, right under the bus.

Forbes has certainly shown herself to he smart, be blessed with good timing, have little issue with throwing colleagues under the bus and it's all garnished with an opportunistic streak.

I think the obituary of her frontline political career may have been written too soon. She's just about ruthless enough to make it.

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes has certainly shown herself to he smart, be blessed with good timing, have little issue with throwing colleagues under the bus and it's all garnished with an opportunistic streak.

I think the obituary of her frontline political career may have been written too soon. She's just about ruthless enough to make it.

I think the only thing between her and the leadership is Stephen Flynn. His problem is he is stuck in London. He also has a strong ruthless streak though and it would not surprise me if he stands for Holyrood at the next elections.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think the only thing between her and the leadership is Stephen Flynn. His problem is he is stuck in London. He also has a strong ruthless streak though and it would not surprise me if he stands for Holyrood at the next elections.


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I like Flynn as you say he needs to get up here though. I think lots of seats are getting lost as a given this year, always hard being the incumbent in recession. There will be a leadership election, Forbes and Flynn would be miles in front. Both can say change for the SNP, distance itself from the past bad press and push on to independence drive at the centre of its being again

[Ozyhibby]

I like Flynn as you say he needs to get up here though. I think lots of seats are getting lost as a given this year, always hard being the incumbent in recession. There will be a leadership election, Forbes and Flynn would be miles in front. Both can say change for the SNP, distance itself from the past bad press and push on to independence drive at the centre of its being again

And both offering to take the party back to the centre where it needs to be.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Did Forbes not say she wouldn't stand again when hamza won last time?

[Ozyhibby]

Did Forbes not say she wouldn't stand again when hamza won last time?

Can’t remember her saying it but I doubt she would stick by it if she did. She is not staying in politics just to be a constituency MSP. She is still very young.


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[Ozyhibby]

That's the clip that will have her done from the public. Imagine saying this then continuing to delete WhatsApps for another two years of covid.The militant wing of SNP will defend it but its inexcusable.

On the 12th of May 21 its announced the Covid inquiry will require all communications, on the 13th Jason Leitch is laughing with SNP staff that it's his bed time ritual to delete the WhatsApps.

Last year when the Times said a source told them Jason Leitch deleted his emails every day the Scottish Government said "It is not correct to suggest that the National Clinical Director deleted every WhatsApp message every day."

Politicians are all the the same rouges wearing different rosettes. I'll say the same as others on here said when Boris and Rishi never handed messages, they should be prosecuted

Kate forbes played a blinder when she repeatedly and deliberately said it was obvious that WhatsApps should be kept for the enquiry, right under the bus.

What is Sturgeon alleged to have got wrong with Covid?


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[Jack]

Politicians are all the the same rouges wearing different rosettes. I'll say the same as others on here said when Boris and Rishi never handed messages, they should be prosecuted


What have you decided they should be prosecuted with?

It's been a decision, probably made by Cabinet Office, that the messages should be deleted and the 4 nations have taken their advice.

I don't agree with the decision, probably made by Cabinet Office, but that's where we are.

I suspect one of the recommendations made by the Inquiries going on just now is that all communications must be kept.


Does anyone know what happened with similar in other countries?

[Stairway 2 7]

What is Sturgeon alleged to have got wrong with Covid?


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What do you mean? I have said before she done the same as most in a difficult situation. Scotlands excess deaths were the same as England and both were similar to the rest of western Europe. There were obvious mistakes where culpability would be nice to be established ie sending people from hospital to old folks homes with zero testing which caused thousands of deaths.

We garnered the most information from the English enquiry from the WhatsApps. Policy wasn't made there but people talked freely

[Stairway 2 7]

What have you decided they should be prosecuted with?

It's been a decision, probably made by Cabinet Office, that the messages should be deleted and the 4 nations have taken their advice.

I don't agree with the decision, probably made by Cabinet Office, but that's where we are.

I suspect one of the recommendations made by the Inquiries going on just now is that all communications must be kept.


Does anyone know what happened with similar in other countries?

She said she wouldn't delete messages and that she wouldn't be able to anyway as there would be an independent enquiry. She then for the next few years deleted messages. She can't possibly say I was just following orders after saying that, she was top dog she could have said this is wrong and I've told the public I will keep them. It might not be criminal but we have been lied to. Why did Scottish government say Jason Leitch wasn't deleting his messages each day as a fact when he was, they assumed it wouldn't come out I think. Just replace the names and see how you feel.

Boris goes on TV says I won't delete WhatsApps as I can't due to the judge led enquiry, he then deletes all messages going forward, Grant Shapps has his messages on auto delete and professor Vallence says he deletes his messages each night when tory heads say be careful of FOI

https://archive.ph/4g7n2
Under the Inquiries Act, it is a criminal offence if someone “intentionally suppresses or conceals a document that is, and that he knows or believes to be, a relevant document, or … intentionally alters or destroys any such document”.
The definition of a “relevant document” under the act is one that “it is likely that the inquiry panel would [if aware of its existence] wish to be provided with it”

[Just Alf]

What do you mean? I have said before she done the same as most in a difficult situation. Scotlands excess deaths were the same as England and both were similar to the rest of western Europe. There were obvious mistakes where culpability would be nice to be established ie sending people from hospital to old folks homes with zero testing which caused thousands of deaths.

We garnered the most information from the English enquiry from the WhatsApps. Policy wasn't made there but people talked freelyOn your last Paragraph, it's quite telling, looking back, Nicola Sturgeon and a few others insisted policy wasn't decided over social media......... that's not to say nothing was 'discussed'!

[Hibrandenburg]

What do you mean? I have said before she done the same as most in a difficult situation. Scotlands excess deaths were the same as England and both were similar to the rest of western Europe. There were obvious mistakes where culpability would be nice to be established ie sending people from hospital to old folks homes with zero testing which caused thousands of deaths.

We garnered the most information from the English enquiry from the WhatsApps. Policy wasn't made there but people talked freely

And people should be able to talk freely, even politicians. What's next, miking them up so that all conversations can be recorded. If policy was made via WhatsApp then it should be made public, but asking for private conversations to be made public doesn't sit right with me.

[grunt]

Politicians are all the the same rouges wearing different rosettes.
Oh? Did Sturgeon introduce a VIP lane to skim billions from the public purse? Did she tell everyone it was ok to shake hands with COVID sufferers? Did she organise parties during lockdown? Did she say that old people should just die?

The Scottish Government is not the same as those lying *******s Westminster; I can't see how you can possibly come to that conclusion. But hey ho. I guess if the media convince enough people like you that they're all the same we can kiss goodbye to independence, and our children will grow up continuing to be told what to do by English politicians.

[Moulin Yarns]

Some people are going to be very disappointed


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68042064

[Hibrandenburg]

Some people are going to be very disappointed


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68042064

Job done though by the media. Like in past smoking bum news though, don't expect anyone to retract their statements. What is it about Sturgeon that makes people want to rip into her before the full story emerges leaving them with egg on their face?

[Moulin Yarns]

Job done though by the media. Like in past smoking bum news though, don't expect anyone to retract their statements. What is it about Sturgeon that makes people want to rip into her before the full story emerges leaving them with egg on their face?

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/nicola-sturgeon-insists-she-acted-in-line-with-with-policy-amid-covid-inquiry

Better explanation

[cabbageandribs1875]

Job done though by the media. Like in past smoking bum news though, don't expect anyone to retract their statements. What is it about Sturgeon that makes people want to rip into her before the full story emerges leaving them with egg on their face?


as usual


a couple on here will be fair gutted

[Berwickhibby]

Somebody is not telling the truth, at the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC, counsel to the inquiry, said former first minister Ms Sturgeon appeared to have "retained no messages whatsoever".

The hearing also heard evidence that her deputy John Swinney's WhatsApp messages were either deleted manually or by using the app's auto-delete function.

Or she retained her messages and passed them to the inquiry as she stated, or Dawson, who is heading this inquiry, without the full facts or causing mischief.

[Ozyhibby]

Somebody is not telling the truth, at the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC, counsel to the inquiry, said former first minister Ms Sturgeon appeared to have "retained no messages whatsoever".

The hearing also heard evidence that her deputy John Swinney's WhatsApp messages were either deleted manually or by using the app's auto-delete function.

Or she retained her messages and passed them to the inquiry as she stated, or Dawson, who is heading this inquiry, without the full facts or causing mischief.

Guess we will just have to wait and see.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Somebody is not telling the truth, at the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC, counsel to the inquiry, said former first minister Ms Sturgeon appeared to have "retained no messages whatsoever".

The hearing also heard evidence that her deputy John Swinney's WhatsApp messages were either deleted manually or by using the app's auto-delete function.

Or she retained her messages and passed them to the inquiry as she stated, or Dawson, who is heading this inquiry, without the full facts or causing mischief.

Read the reports!!! They were kept in other conversations!! It's almost like you want her to be found guilty, or something. 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1748735614189539825?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

So everything was submitted and the last couple of days are just mud slinging?


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[Berwickhibby]

Read the reports!!! They were kept in other conversations!! It's almost like you want her to be found guilty, or something. 🙄

Yesterday’s woman so irrelevant, however I will watch this inquiry with interest as I believe (my opinion) there was lots of wrongdoing during the pandemic both in Westminster and Holyrood.

[grunt]

Read the reports!!! They were kept in other conversations!! It's almost like you want her to be found guilty, or something. 🙄
Much easier to comment if you don't know anything about what's been said.

[Stairway 2 7]

Oh? Did Sturgeon introduce a VIP lane to skim billions from the public purse? Did she tell everyone it was ok to shake hands with COVID sufferers? Did she organise parties during lockdown? Did she say that old people should just die?

The Scottish Government is not the same as those lying *******s Westminster; I can't see how you can possibly come to that conclusion. But hey ho. I guess if the media convince enough people like you that they're all the same we can kiss goodbye to independence, and our children will grow up continuing to be told what to do by English politicians.

The tories are charlatans and half wits more interested in money over lives. Yet Scotland had the same excess deaths so what does that say about our response.

Being not as bad or as corrupt as one of the worst parties in Europe isn't a massive achievement. But of course the SNP are world's away from the tories but that is faint praise

As for the messages she has done the same as Sunak, deleted her messages. When the enquiry asked for them her messages were on other people phones who chose to keep them. She said she wouldn't delete them and then did after that. She says she followed policy but that policy was written in December 21 post an enquiry announcement and post Sturgeon saying she would keep messages.

The policy was written by Ken Thompson in December 21 the same Ken Thompson who in August 20 was telling the SNP chat to be careful of FOI and who Jason Leitch was laughing with that he deleted regularly. Scot gov lied when it said Jason Leitch wasn't doing this as central figures knew

[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1748735614189539825?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

So everything was submitted and the last couple of days are just mud slinging?


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I think the press has been around the fact that Sturgeon deleted her messages like Sunak. Like sunak some of there messages were on other people's phones, we'll never know if that's all the messages. Both knew there would be an enquiry so shouldn't have deleted. The people who didn't delete like Forbes obviously thought the enquiry was more important than the new rule brought in.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the press has been around the fact that Sturgeon deleted her messages like Sunak. Like sunak some of there messages were on other people's phones, we'll never know if that's all the messages. Both knew there would be an enquiry so shouldn't have deleted. The people who didn't delete like Forbes obviously thought the enquiry was more important than the new rule brought in.

She says she has submitted all the messages?


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[Stairway 2 7]

She says she has submitted all the messages?


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She doesn't she says messages with who she spoke most were able to be found obviously from their phones. I believe her but we have to presume all pertinent messages were on the other people's phones. She admits deleting

She said this then still deleted after this

Ciaran Jenkins chanel 4

‘Can you guarantee to the bereaved families that you will disclose emails, WhatsApps, private emails if you’ve been using them. Whatever. That nothing will be off limits in this inquiry'


NicolaSturgeon
‘If you understand statutory public inquiries you would know that even if I wasn’t prepared to give that assurance, which for the avoidance of doubt I am, then I wouldn’t have the ability. This will be a judge-led statutory inquiry.’

[grunt]

The tories are charlatans and half wits more interested in money over lives. Yet Scotland had the same excess deaths so what does that say about our response.Nothing.


Being not as bad or as corrupt as one of the worst parties in Europe isn't a massive achievement. But of course the SNP are world's away from the tories but that is faint praise :confused:


As for the messages she has done the same as Sunak, deleted her messages. When the enquiry asked for them her messages were on other people phones who chose to keep them. She said she wouldn't delete them and then did after that. She says she followed policy but that policy was written in December 21 post an enquiry announcement and post Sturgeon saying she would keep messages.

The policy was written by Ken Thompson in December 21 the same Ken Thompson who in August 20 was telling the SNP chat to be careful of FOI and who Jason Leitch was laughing with that he deleted regularly. Scot gov lied when it said Jason Leitch wasn't doing this as central figures knewYou seem awfully sure of your facts. I don't know where such certainty comes from.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nothing.

:confused:

You seem awfully sure of your facts. I don't know where such certainty comes from.

She said she wouldn't delete, she deleted. Policy changed after she had said to the nation she wouldn't delete as their was an enquiry, but she was FM she could have pushed for them to be kept to keep her promise. It obviously wasn't followed by all as said before Kate forbes said it was obvious there would be an enquiry and that they would need all messages. It appears others didn't delete.

Scot gov said in response to the Times saying they had heard Leitch deleted messages every day that he hadn't. That's a lie. They aren't my facts they are theirs

[marinello59]

She said she wouldn't delete, she deleted. Policy changed after she had said to the nation she wouldn't delete as their was an enquiry, but she was FM she could have pushed for them to be kept to keep her promise. It obviously wasn't followed by all as said before Kate forbes said it was obvious there would be an enquiry and that they would need all messages. It appears others didn't delete.

Scot gov said in response to the Times saying they had heard Leitch deleted messages every day that he hadn't. That's a lie. They aren't my facts they are theirs



Bottom line, Sturgeon and others at the top of the Scottish Government lied. We have been badly let down.

[lapsedhibee]

Bottom line, Sturgeon and others at the top of the Scottish Government lied. We have been badly let down.

Breaking promises is bad and lying is bad, but breaking promises and lying are not the same thing.

[Just Alf]

She said she wouldn't delete, she deleted. Policy changed after she had said to the nation she wouldn't delete as their was an enquiry, but she was FM she could have pushed for them to be kept to keep her promise. It obviously wasn't followed by all as said before Kate forbes said it was obvious there would be an enquiry and that they would need all messages. It appears others didn't delete.

Scot gov said in response to the Times saying they had heard Leitch deleted messages every day that he hadn't. That's a lie. They aren't my facts they are theirsIf she's done wrong then she should be held to account.

But it's feeling like she's getting grief for sending over the messages as required but deleting them off her phone.

Feels like a no win situation.

[grunt]

She said she wouldn't delete, she deleted. Policy changed after she had said to the nation she wouldn't delete as their was an enquiry, but she was FM she could have pushed for them to be kept to keep her promise. It obviously wasn't followed by all as said before Kate forbes said it was obvious there would be an enquiry and that they would need all messages. It appears others didn't delete.

Scot gov said in response to the Times saying they had heard Leitch deleted messages every day that he hadn't. That's a lie. They aren't my facts they are theirs
Everything is always black and white with you, isn't it? It must be nice, having so much certainty in your life.

[grunt]

Bottom line, Sturgeon and others at the top of the Scottish Government lied. We have been badly let down.
Affected you personally, has it?

[McD]

Everything is always black and white with you, isn't it? It must be nice, having so much certainty in your life.



It’s pretty black and white.

NS stated publicly that she would not delete messages, and indeed could not even if she wanted to as there would be a public enquiry. Now that the enquiry is underway, messages have been deleted from her phone, including after that statement was made by NS. These are facts.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/nicola-sturgeons-covid-whatsapp-messages-were-deleted-report-claims

October last year.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s pretty black and white.

NS stated publicly that she would not delete messages, and indeed could not even if she wanted to as there would be a public enquiry. Now that the enquiry is underway, messages have been deleted from her phone, including after that statement was made by NS. These are facts.

Although it appears that she sent them all to the enquiry first?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Although it appears that she sent them all to the enquiry first?


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Did you read her message she doesn't say that even if you keep saying it mate. She deleted hers after saying she wouldn't. She's got some of them from other people's phones. She says she's got the relevant ones but that's coming from her. I assume she won't have from Swinney as he auto deleted.

If I was up in court and I said I won't let you see my messages but I'll send the relevant ones I've got from other people's phones and delete all mine it wouldn't fly.

Why did she agree to a new policy of message deletion months after she said she wouldn't delete as it would be needed for the enquiry.

[Moulin Yarns]

Did you read her message she doesn't say that even if you keep saying it mate. She deleted hers after saying she wouldn't. She's got some of them from other people's phones. She says she's got the relevant ones but that's coming from her. I assume she won't have from Swinney as he auto deleted.

If I was up in court and I said I won't let you see my messages but I'll send the relevant ones I've got from other people's phones and delete all mine it wouldn't fly.

Why did she agree to a new policy of message deletion months after she said she wouldn't delete as it would be needed for the enquiry.

The policy isn't new, I think it became active around 2013. Need to check the government website, but it definitely wasn't new after 2020

[Pretty Boy]

Although it appears that she sent them all to the enquiry first?


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Even she doesn't claim to have sent them all over.

'...the Inquiry does have messages between me and those I most regularly communicated with through informal means'

That's quite different and frankly it's typical vague speak from a politician that is broad enough that it leaves room for 'clarifications' at a later point. I've a feeling the 'I can't recall' catchphrase will be broken out a few times when she eventually appears before the enquiry.

[Stairway 2 7]

The policy isn't new, I think it became active around 2013. Need to check the government website, but it definitely wasn't new after 2020

In regards to record retention for the covid inquiry it was written in nov 21 by Ken Thompson.

There was policy before obviously in regards to FOI and record retention. It's also covered in the Inquiries act that's been around for decades that says "Under the Inquiries Act, it is a criminal offence if someone “intentionally alters or destroys any [relevant] document”

Definition of a relevant document is one that “it is likely that the inquiry panel would ... wish to be provided with it”

She new WhatsApps would be asked for she told the public she wouldn't delete and then did. Surely saying following government orders isn't on when your FM.

She is here recounting messages she sent Alex Salmond 3 years previously and kept, mostly mundane stuff. So what gets kept and what gets deleted
https://twitter.com/markthehibby/status/1748823044255096850

[Stairway 2 7]

Humza on Kuenssberg today its just going to be a series of questions followed by look I'm not going to comment on an ongoing enquiry/investigation

[JimBHibees]

Is what's app seen as an appropriate platform for government businesss? Surely secure email or use of teams would be seen as more appropriate. Would have thought what's app more for personal communication.

[Ozyhibby]

Is what's app seen as an appropriate platform for government businesss? Surely secure email or use of teams would be seen as more appropriate. Would have thought what's app more for personal communication.

It certainly should be.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/paddyb53/status/1749011483168489650?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Ozyhibby]

Is what's app seen as an appropriate platform for government businesss? Surely secure email or use of teams would be seen as more appropriate. Would have thought what's app more for personal communication.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-68049189?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_id=CCE5EAD2-B864-11EE-83E8-A353D0B4AF07&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link


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[Ozyhibby]

Even she doesn't claim to have sent them all over.

'...the Inquiry does have messages between me and those I most regularly communicated with through informal means'

That's quite different and frankly it's typical vague speak from a politician that is broad enough that it leaves room for 'clarifications' at a later point. I've a feeling the 'I can't recall' catchphrase will be broken out a few times when she eventually appears before the enquiry.

If she has sent over all comms on the pandemic then what is the problem? Do we also need to read her chats with her sister or friends?


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[CropleyWasGod]

If she has sent over all comms on the pandemic then what is the problem? Do we also need to read her chats with her sister or friends?


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Doesn't she have a separate phone for that? You'd like to think so.

[Stairway 2 7]

If she has sent over all comms on the pandemic then what is the problem? Do we also need to read her chats with her sister or friends?


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She's sent what she wants to. She said she wouldn't delete the messages but then did. She can blame policy changing but she is FM she can decide. Humza and Forbes didn't delete.

The policy shouldn't have been brought in when it was clear their would be an enquiry. No policy was decided on the Westminster WhatsApps from the enquiry, obviously as who makes actual decisions on WhatsApp. We did gather so much information from them though, people calling Sunak Dr death, Williamson contempt for the teachers. If we asked Williamson to decide himself if that was pertinent he would obviously say no and delete, that's why they should have been kept when it was clear there would be an enquiry.

[Ozyhibby]

She's sent what she wants to. She said she wouldn't delete the messages but then did. She can blame policy changing but she is FM she can decide. Humza and Forbes didn't delete.

The policy shouldn't have been brought in when it was clear their would be an enquiry. No policy was decided on the Westminster WhatsApps from the enquiry, obviously as who makes actual decisions on WhatsApp. We did gather so much information from them though, people calling Sunak Dr death, Williamson contempt for the teachers. If we asked Williamson to decide himself if that was pertinent he would obviously say no and delete, that's why they should have been kept when it was clear there would be an enquiry.

She claims she forwarded before deletion?


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[Moulin Yarns]

She claims she forwarded before deletion?


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No, got from other devices. I don't remember her ever saying she wouldn't delete anything though.

[Stairway 2 7]

She claims she forwarded before deletion?


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Your ignoring everyone who is correcting you on this even putting up her quotes

[Stairway 2 7]

No, got from other devices. I don't remember her ever saying she wouldn't delete anything though.

Ciaran Jenkins chanel 4

‘Can you guarantee to the bereaved families that you will disclose emails, WhatsApps, private emails if you’ve been using them. Whatever. That nothing will be off limits in this inquiry'


NicolaSturgeon
‘If you understand statutory public inquiries you would know that even if I wasn’t prepared to give that assurance, which for the avoidance of doubt I am, then I wouldn’t have the ability. This will be a judge-led statutory inquiry.’

[McD]

No, got from other devices. I don't remember her ever saying she wouldn't delete anything though.



There’s footage been shared on this thread via Twitter of her being asked by a journalist and replying explicitly that she would not delete any messages

[Hibrandenburg]

Ciaran Jenkins chanel 4

‘Can you guarantee to the bereaved families that you will disclose emails, WhatsApps, private emails if you’ve been using them. Whatever. That nothing will be off limits in this inquiry'


NicolaSturgeon
‘If you understand statutory public inquiries you would know that even if I wasn’t prepared to give that assurance, which for the avoidance of doubt I am, then I wouldn’t have the ability. This will be a judge-led statutory inquiry.’

But she has disclosed them.

[Stairway 2 7]

But she has disclosed them.

She says her messages haven't been retained, she said she managed to get messages from other people that she spoke most to. That's not a full picture. Yousaf and Kate Forbes decided to keep.

She said to the public that she wouldn't delete. A few months later her government signed of a policy that said government ministers can decide what is pertinent. That is ridiculous, who is going to keep things that put themselves in a bad light

She kept all her messages to Salmond for years to use against him, many were mundane and not of importance. Why bring in a policy post an enquiry being announced that says you can delete messages you don't think are important

[Stairway 2 7]

The original guidelines they drew up in December 21 said all and full conversations must be kept. They then changed it to the discretion of the msp what is kept. Who agreed to that deplorable change


@AamerAnwar
“ The watering down of guidelines, smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid scrutiny and provide cover for anyone wanting to get rid of their WhatsApps.”

[Hibrandenburg]

She says her messages haven't been retained, she said she managed to get messages from other people that she spoke most to. That's not a full picture. Yousaf and Kate Forbes decided to keep.

She said to the public that she wouldn't delete. A few months later her government signed of a policy that said government ministers can decide what is pertinent. That is ridiculous, who is going to keep things that put themselves in a bad light

She kept all her messages to Salmond for years to use against him, many were mundane and not of importance. Why bring in a policy post an enquiry being announced that says you can delete messages you don't think are important

Can you post a link where she promised not to delete her WhatsApp messages, I'm struggling to find one?

[lapsedhibee]

There’s footage been shared on this thread via Twitter of her being asked by a journalist and replying explicitly that she would not delete any messages

If you're referring to the Ciaran Jenkins footage, she wasn't explicit about not deleting messages. Explicit would be "I will not delete any messages", which she didn't say. She did however explicitly promise to disclose stuff, which you might argue implied that she wouldn't delete anything ever.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you're referring to the Ciaran Jenkins footage, she wasn't explicit about not deleting messages. Explicit would be "I will not delete any messages", which she didn't say. She did however explicitly promise to disclose stuff, which you might argue implied that she wouldn't delete anything ever.

You could argue that but you'd be wrong. I've already deleted the WhatsApp shopping list that my Mrs sent me on Thursday but I can disclose that she asked me to buy milk, bread and eggs.

[marinello59]

Can you post a link where she promised not to delete her WhatsApp messages, I'm struggling to find one?

Does that matter? Surely the point is she shouldn’t be deciding which messages were worthy of deletion or not.
Sturgeon and the SNP tried to portray themselves as somehow different from other parties which was always going to be exposed as a myth. My greatest disappointment though is that Sturgeon didn’t restrict her resignation speech to a Johnny Rotten style, ‘Ever feel like you’ve been cheated’ :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

If you're referring to the Ciaran Jenkins footage, she wasn't explicit about not deleting messages. Explicit would be "I will not delete any messages", which she didn't say. She did however explicitly promise to disclose stuff, which you might argue implied that she wouldn't delete anything ever.

That's an absolute fudge no one couldsay that with a straight face. Giving the assurance you will give your WhatsApps to the enquiry and deleting them are the exact opposite things.

If my accountant said can I see your receipts. If I said yes and then burnt them he would call me a ******g liar. "I said I would give you them, I didn't say I wouldn't get rid of them"

[Berwickhibby]

Does that matter? Surely the point is she shouldn’t be deciding which messages were worthy of deletion or not.
Sturgeon and the SNP tried to portray themselves as somehow different from other parties which was always going to be exposed as a myth. My greatest disappointment though is that Sturgeon didn’t restrict her resignation speech to a Johnny Rotten style, ‘Ever feel like you’ve been cheated’ :greengrin

That’s because she did not have the Class or integrity of Johnny 😊 tin hat on …incoming

[lapsedhibee]

That's an absolute fudge no one couldsay that with a straight face. Giving the assurance you will give your WhatsApps to the enquiry and deleting them are the exact opposite things.

If my accountant said can I see your receipts. If I said yes and then burnt them he would call me a ******g liar. "I said I would give you them, I didn't say I wouldn't get rid of them"

She didn't say that either though.

[lapsedhibee]

You could argue that but you'd be wrong. I've already deleted the WhatsApp shopping list that my Mrs sent me on Thursday but I can disclose that she asked me to buy milk, bread and eggs.

Exactly my point, which not everyone seems to get. Sturgeon trained as a lawyer and she doesn't bandy words about willy nilly. She may well have behaved badly but there are people on this thread just making stuff up about what she promised.

[Stairway 2 7]

She didn't say that either though.

She did give that assurance she would provide them

Ciaran Jenkins chanel 4

‘Can you guarantee to the bereaved families that you will disclose emails, WhatsApps, private emails if you’ve been using them. Whatever. That nothing will be off limits in this inquiry'


NicolaSturgeon
‘If you understand statutory public inquiries you would know that even if I wasn’t prepared to give that assurance, which for the avoidance of doubt I am, then I wouldn’t have the ability. This will be a judge-led statutory inquiry.’

[Stairway 2 7]

You could argue that but you'd be wrong. I've already deleted the WhatsApp shopping list that my Mrs sent me on Thursday but I can disclose that she asked me to buy milk, bread and eggs.

Don't get the anology at all. The comparison would be if your wife said will you keep it and show me, you said yes but then deleted

[Stairway 2 7]

Exactly my point, which not everyone seems to get. Sturgeon trained as a lawyer and she doesn't bandy words about willy nilly. She may well have behaved badly but there are people on this thread just making stuff up about what she promised.

She promised to disclose the emails. She then deleted them. Her government post this created a new policy on retention for the enquiry. The first draft said whole conversations must be kept, the final draft MSPs could decide what is pertinent

[lapsedhibee]

She promised to disclose the emails. She then deleted them. Her government post this created a new policy on retention for the enquiry. The first draft said whole conversations must be kept, the final draft MSPs could decide what is pertinent

She's obviously going to have to delete the e-mails which discuss the £600,000 she stole, who in their right mind would hand that over to a judge? :confused:

[Berwickhibby]

She's obviously going to have to delete the e-mails which discuss the £600,000 she stole, who in their right mind would hand that over to a judge? :confused:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 best post on this thread….made me chuckle

[Ozyhibby]

She promised to disclose the emails. She then deleted them. Her government post this created a new policy on retention for the enquiry. The first draft said whole conversations must be kept, the final draft MSPs could decide what is pertinent

Emails?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

She's obviously going to have to delete the e-mails which discuss the £600,000 she stole, who in their right mind would hand that over to a judge? :confused:

Bants but thousands died so its more serious than missing funds. She said she would hand over her WhatsApps then deleted them.

AamerAnwar lawyer for the Scottish covid bereaved says if deletion happened after the establishing of the Inquiry, then potentially "severe consequences" for those in power..."that can result in a significant fine and a jail sentence."

He says "it's not for Ms Sturgeon to decide what is relevant and what's not," “it can only be described as a cynical and pre-meditated decision” “Sturgeon should be treated no differently to Boris Johnson, who failed to provide WhatsApps from the start of the pandemic, while the prime minister Rishi Sunak claims to have none at all.”

[Stairway 2 7]

Emails?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry emails, WhatsApps and private emails

[Hibrandenburg]

Bants but thousands died so its more serious than missing funds. She said she would hand over her WhatsApps then deleted them.

AamerAnwar lawyer for the Scottish covid bereaved says if deletion happened after the establishing of the Inquiry, then potentially "severe consequences" for those in power..."that can result in a significant fine and a jail sentence."

He says "it's not for Ms Sturgeon to decide what is relevant and what's not," “it can only be described as a cynical and pre-meditated decision” “Sturgeon should be treated no differently to Boris Johnson, who failed to provide WhatsApps from the start of the pandemic, while the prime minister Rishi Sunak claims to have none at all.”

I've asked if you can provide a link to evidence that she actually claimed what you're saying she said, but she apparently didn't. I know some of you are absolutely desperate to find a smoking gun but it's getting embarrassing now.

[Stairway 2 7]

I've asked if you can provide a link to evidence that she actually claimed what you're saying she said, but she apparently didn't. I know some of you are absolutely desperate to find a smoking gun but it's getting embarrassing now.

Your playing daft. You know that she said she would hand over her WhatsApps, she then deleted them. It's pretty cut and dried to most non cultists

[marinello59]

I've asked if you can provide a link to evidence that she actually claimed what you're saying she said, but she apparently didn't. I know some of you are absolutely desperate to find a smoking gun but it's getting embarrassing now.

There’s a smoking gun as well ? The plot thickens. :greengrin

[hibee]

Your playing daft. You know that she said she would hand over her WhatsApps, she then deleted them. It's pretty cut and dried to most non cultists

I thought the widely shared quote was from one of her live daily Covid updates when she was asked the question, if that’s correct then I don’t understand all the confusion.

[Hibrandenburg]

Your playing daft. You know that she said she would hand over her WhatsApps, she then deleted them. It's pretty cut and dried to most non cultists

You're changing the narrative, you claimed she said she wouldn't delete her WhatsApps. Now you've watered it down to she said she would hand over her WhatsApps. What she really said was she'd disclose them and she's done that. Like I said it's getting embarrassing, I mentioned earlier that some would have egg on their face, you've got a full Scottish breakfast on yours.

As for your witty quip about the SNP cult, I've never voted for them.

[Berwickhibby]

You're changing the narrative, you claimed she said she wouldn't delete her WhatsApps. Now you've watered it down to she said she would hand over her WhatsApps. What she really said was she'd disclose them and she's done that. Like I said it's getting embarrassing, I mentioned earlier that some would have egg on their face, you've got a full Scottish breakfast on yours.

As for your witty quip about the SNP cult, I've never voted for them.

But you have claimed to be a party member in the past

[Stairway 2 7]

You're changing the narrative, you claimed she said she wouldn't delete her WhatsApps. Now you've watered it down to she said she would hand over her WhatsApps. What she really said was she'd disclose them and she's done that. Like I said it's getting embarrassing, I mentioned earlier that some would have egg on their face, you've got a full Scottish breakfast on yours.

As for your witty quip about the SNP cult, I've never voted for them.

Saying you'll hand them over is literally saying that you won't delete them it's daft to say different. She hasn't done that the kc at the enquiry said they don't have her messages, she has implied she has given some from other people's devices.

She said she would hand them over but she then deleted them. I'd say 99% of people will see that for what it is shocking.

[Stairway 2 7]

I thought the widely shared quote was from one of her live daily Covid updates when she was asked the question, if that’s correct then I don’t understand all the confusion.

She did. It's straw clutching

[Hibrandenburg]

Saying you'll hand them over is literally saying that you won't delete them it's daft to say different. She hasn't done that the kc at the enquiry said they don't have her messages, she has implied she has given some from other people's devices.

She said she would hand them over but she then deleted them. I'd say 99% of people will see that for what it is shocking.

She didn't say she'd hand them over. She said she would disclose them. Why do you continuously have to use different vocabulary to interpret what she said instead of just saying what she actually said?

[marinello59]

She didn't say she'd hand them over. She said she would disclose them. Why do you continuously have to use different vocabulary to interpret what she said instead of just saying what she actually said?

What she said doesn’t matter.
Do you think it’s right that Johnson, Sturgeon and whoever else felt it was up to them to decide which messages should be deleted or retained?

[Stairway 2 7]

She didn't say she'd hand them over. She said she would disclose them. Why do you continuously have to use different vocabulary to interpret what she said instead of just saying what she actually said?

OK she said she would disclose them and then she went on and deleted them. The enquiry says they do not have copies of them. She says she's managed to get ones from the people she talked most to.

[marinello59]

OK she said she would disclose them and then she went on and deleted them. The enquiry says they do not have copies of them. She says she's managed to get ones from the people she talked most to.

Swinney?

[Moulin Yarns]

Here goes.


Remit for covid enquiry agreed June 2022.

Scottish Government guidelines on messages December 2021


AND



The Scottish government brought in new mobile messaging guidance in November 2021 - in the midst of the pandemic. This spells out how ministers should approach informal messaging systems, such as WhatsApp.

Officials and ministers are allowed to use these apps to conduct business, with the guidance stating "you must transcribe the salient points of any business discussions and/or decisions in a mobile messaging app into an email or text document". This should then be saved centrally.

In other words, you can make decisions and have government discussions on WhatsApp, provided you then copy that information and save it.

This will then be stored exactly as official minutes, records etc would be. Crucially, it will be accessible to the public under Freedom of Information laws.

Once this has all been done, the guidance states "you must delete business conversations in the mobile messaging app".

Therefore, no need to retain WhatsApp messages as they exist in other forms.

[Stairway 2 7]

Swinney?

They said they didn't have any of his messages at the enquiry. We'll have to take her word that he wasn't one of the ones she talked most to.

Humza kept his. Forbes said it was obvious there would be an enquiry so she kept hers

[Stairway 2 7]

Here goes.


Remit for covid enquiry agreed June 2022.

Scottish Government guidelines on messages December 2021


AND



The Scottish government brought in new mobile messaging guidance in November 2021 - in the midst of the pandemic. This spells out how ministers should approach informal messaging systems, such as WhatsApp.

Officials and ministers are allowed to use these apps to conduct business, with the guidance stating "you must transcribe the salient points of any business discussions and/or decisions in a mobile messaging app into an email or text document". This should then be saved centrally.

In other words, you can make decisions and have government discussions on WhatsApp, provided you then copy that information and save it.

This will then be stored exactly as official minutes, records etc would be. Crucially, it will be accessible to the public under Freedom of Information laws.

Once this has all been done, the guidance states "you must delete business conversations in the mobile messaging app".

Therefore, no need to retain WhatsApp messages as they exist in other forms.

This was brought in after she said she would hand hers over. The original draft said that all messages and full conversations must be handed over. Scot Gov then changed it to MSPs can decide what is to be kept.

Who ok'd that as it is utterly shocking. As Aamer Anwar said for the covid bereavement group: “ The watering down of guidelines, smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid scrutiny and provide cover for anyone wanting to get rid of their WhatsApps.”

[McD]

If you're referring to the Ciaran Jenkins footage, she wasn't explicit about not deleting messages. Explicit would be "I will not delete any messages", which she didn't say. She did however explicitly promise to disclose stuff, which you might argue implied that she wouldn't delete anything ever.



You are correct, it’s a fair point. She said she would disclose the various communications

[Jack]

This was brought in after she said she would hand hers over. The original draft said that all messages and full conversations must be handed over. Scot Gov then changed it to MSPs can decide what is to be kept.

Who ok'd that as it is utterly shocking. As Aamer Anwar said for the covid bereavement group: “ The watering down of guidelines, smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid scrutiny and provide cover for anyone wanting to get rid of their WhatsApps.”

Should all telephone calls have been recorded and/or transcribed?

[Moulin Yarns]

You are correct, it’s a fair point. She said she would disclose the various communications

Which has been done, hasn't it??? See above for explanation of how messages are saved.

[Stairway 2 7]

Should all telephone calls have been recorded and/or transcribed?

I've no idea what the policy is for that. The comparison would be if they were, saying you would disclose them but then deleting them all. I wouldn't think recorded telephone calls would be secure at though

[McD]

Which has been done, hasn't it??? See above for explanation of how messages are saved.



As far as I can tell, no it’s not been done as per the explanation that you provided, thank you for that btw, it’s helpful.

It seems any WhatsApp messages NS has given to the enquiry have been gathered from the devices of other people, not from any official records created at the various times of conversations.

[Stairway 2 7]

Which has been done, hasn't it??? See above for explanation of how messages are saved.

The kc at the enquiry said no messages from her have been handed over. She says they have messages from who she talked most to. We have to believe her as she deleted hers.

Who decided post enquiry announcement that it was ok for MSPs to decide what was important and why did they water it down from the first draft that said all conversations should be kept. As Aamer Anwar says it gives MSPs cover to delete what they want. It seems some did and some chose not too

[CropleyWasGod]

As far as I can tell, no it’s not been done as per the explanation that you provided, thank you for that btw, it’s helpful.

It seems any WhatsApp messages NS has given to the enquiry have been gathered from the devices of other people, not from any official records created at the various times of conversations.

Should the enquiry have asked for the transcriptions rather than the original messages?

[Moulin Yarns]

Should the enquiry have asked for the transcriptions rather than the original messages?

I think that's the crux of the matter. The language used should be clear, messages or transcript of.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that's the crux of the matter. The language used should be clear, messages or transcript of.

IMO, it's the content of the messages that is the important issue. All of the other stuff is just political posturing, and irrelevant in the context of the work of the enquiry.

[Stairway 2 7]

Should the enquiry have asked for the transcriptions rather than the original messages?

They asked for all relevant information including typed and written messages. Valance down south handed in his personal diaries and hundreds of written notes for example. Of course transcripts should have been handed in if they had it.

I'm sure we'll here more in the next few weeks, NS isn't up for another 2 weeks

[Ozyhibby]

IMO, it's the content of the messages that is the important issue. All of the other stuff is just political posturing, and irrelevant in the context of the work of the enquiry.

Agree. More concerned with the quality of the decisions made than some of the chat that lead to it.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Agree. More concerned with the quality of the decisions made than some of the chat that lead to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd like to know the chat that led to people being sent from hospitals to old folks homes, the one truly deadly mistake.

We had similar excess deaths to England although they opened up more generally, also similar to the rest of western Europe. It was a hard ballance between economy and covid deaths. Economy also leads to deaths as the 300k dead from tory austerity shows.

The only thing that really made a difference was vaccines and we got that spot on to be fair, from roll out to uptake Scotland did great

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd like to know the chat that led to people being sent from hospitals to old folks homes, the one truly deadly mistake.

We had similar excess deaths to England although they opened up more generally, also similar to the rest of western Europe. It was a hard ballance between economy and covid deaths. Economy also leads to deaths as the 300k dead from tory austerity shows.

The only thing that really made a difference was vaccines and we got that spot on to be fair, from roll out to uptake Scotland did great

Sturgeon already said that she didn't make decisions using unofficial means of communication and has disclosed her official and unofficial communications to the enquiry, what else is it you actually want?

[Stairway 2 7]

Sturgeon already said that she didn't make decisions based unofficial means of communication and has disclosed her official and unofficial communications to the enquiry, what else is it you actually want?

Obviously final decisions weren't literally decided on WhatsApp. In England they obviously weren't decided on WhatsApp but we gathered more insight from them than anything from their mouths.

She hasn't disclosed her information to the enquiry the kc on oath said they had no messages from her. She has got some of her messages from other people.

The problem is with deleting them we will never know the full picture.

I think the biggest scandal is after an enquiry was announced and Sturgeon said she would disclose her messages, Scot gov changed a policy draft that said all messages should be kept to MSPs can decide what to keep. Who signed that off and why. Imagine a court case where the accused decides what is pertinent to the case

[grunt]

What she said doesn’t matter.
And you think we're the ones in a cult?

[Ozyhibby]

Obviously final decisions weren't literally decided on WhatsApp. In England they obviously weren't decided on WhatsApp but we gathered more insight from them than anything from their mouths.

She hasn't disclosed her information to the enquiry the kc on oath said they had no messages from her. She has got some of her messages from other people.

The problem is with deleting them we will never know the full picture.

I think the biggest scandal is after an enquiry was announced and Sturgeon said she would disclose her messages, Scot gov changed a policy draft that said all messages should be kept to MSPs can decide what to keep. Who signed that off and why. Imagine a court case where the accused decides what is pertinent to the case

That is the exact same policy the UK govt has.


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[Stairway 2 7]

That is the exact same policy the UK govt has.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a high bar isn't it. We had a draft written up that said everything will be kept and then matched England to say you can give enquiry what you want.

Yet almost every member down south kept theirs, Rishi deleted and you said he must have something to hide if he's not handing over his. Even Boris kept his although it needed wrestled out of him. Hancock, Williamson, Yousaf, Forbes most people kept them bar Sturgeon and Sunak.

Sturgeon did usually keep messages on her phone, she showed this when she went to 3 year old messages with Salmond on her phone.

[Ozyhibby]

That's a high bar isn't it. We had a draft written up that said everything will be kept and then matched England to say you can give enquiry what you want.

Yet almost every member down south kept theirs, Rishi deleted and you said he must have something to hide if he's not handing over his. Even Boris kept his although it needed wrestled out of him. Hancock, Williamson, Yousaf, Forbes most people kept them bar Sturgeon and Sunak.

Sturgeon did usually keep messages on her phone, she showed this when she went to 3 year old messages with Salmond on her phone.

Sturgeon also said she did not conduct pandemic business on her phone.
I don’t think I have said anything about Sunak or Johnson’s what’s apps? More concerned with the corruption and rule breaking that went on.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think WhatsApp messages are necessary, just show the enquiry the daily update broadcasts. Everything was communicated there. 😉

[Stairway 2 7]

Sturgeon also said she did not conduct pandemic business on her phone.
I don’t think I have said anything about Sunak or Johnson’s what’s apps? More concerned with the corruption and rule breaking that went on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You did I was looking back to see the dates. The problem is deleting messages leaves it up to us to believe people. It's a public enquiry we can't go on what people say the did or said.

[Stairway 2 7]

Scotland’s Information Commissioner on issue of covid WhatsApps:

tells “It appears that the principles of The Freedom of information act appear to have been subverted by some of the conversations that have been released.” Says some of the info released “beggars belief"

Aamer Anwar says they will be checking if anyone has put in a FOI request between 2020 and now as FOI supercedes policy and it would be a criminal offence if anyone deleted information. ‘The deletion of WhatsApps can only be seen as a cynical premeditated decision and Ms Sturgeon and others must answer as to their motivation for deleting messages.’
Anwar says "it's quite clear she had her messages on her phone in August 2021 as she read them out on sky news to Sophie Ridge. It begs the question at what point did she delete the messages as an enquiry had been already announced"

Humza should distance himself say that's a matter for the past regime, I'm the new FM and I have handed over my complete messages

[Berwickhibby]

I think it’s best to let the inquiry run its course and see what the findings are, however the KC leading the questioning has clearly stated that WhatsApp messages were deleted and that Sturgeon deleted all hers.

As pointed out by many that there are lots of ways to communicate and record accounts of what was said and decided. However the fact that 2 groups were set up to discuss the pandemic suggests it was used for business. Deleting messages from them suggests poor management or worse.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder, if this was 30 years ago would we be discussing the deleting of messages or the increase in sale of shredders??

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder, if this was 30 years ago would we be discussing the deleting of messages or the increase in sale of shredders??

Maybe I'm out of step, but I find it hard to understand that official business can be conducted by text messaging. Other than for the most basic of functions, the process itself is open to misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe I'm out of step, but I find it hard to understand that official business can be conducted by text messaging. Other than for the most basic of functions, the process itself is open to misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

A bit like a football forum 😉

[CropleyWasGod]

A bit like a football forum 😉

Did you just call me a Jambo?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did you just call me a Jambo?

Aye 🤣

[Jack]

I wonder, if this was 30 years ago would we be discussing the deleting of messages or the increase in sale of shredders??

That's almost the point I was making with telephone calls earlier.

Having been a civil servant for almost 40 years I was always aware what should be kept for the official records, particularly in policy areas.

Of course not many phone calls made the official record. Minutes taken at very important meetings were not verbatim, sometimes only salient points. Lots of correspondence didn't make the official record.

It's a judgement call from whoever has written it or is reviewing it as to whether or not it should be part of the official record.

Having said that, and I said the same thing months ago, I'm surprised WhatsApp was used for any sort of official business. I can't imagine, even if policy was decided on WhatsApp, there wouldn't be a fuller record of the decisions made and how they were reached kept elsewhere.

Of course if all you're interested in is salacious gossip as was evident at #10 then the possibility there are missing WhatsApp messages will be devastating 😆 However with the lack of Dominic Cummings or Daft Boris characters up here they'd likely be disappointed anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's almost the point I was making with telephone calls earlier.

Having been a civil servant for almost 40 years I was always aware what should be kept for the official records, particularly in policy areas.

Of course not many phone calls made the official record. Minutes taken at very important meetings were not verbatim, sometimes only salient points. Lots of correspondence didn't make the official record.

It's a judgement call from whoever has written it or is reviewing it as to whether or not it should be part of the official record.

Having said that, and I said the same thing months ago, I'm surprised WhatsApp was used for any sort of official business. I can't imagine, even if policy was decided on WhatsApp, there wouldn't be a fuller record of the decisions made and how they were reached kept elsewhere.

Of course if all you're interested in is salacious gossip as was evident at #10 then the possibility there are missing WhatsApp messages will be devastating 😆 However with the lack of Dominic Cummings or Daft Boris characters up here they'd likely be disappointed anyway.

That's what people are really interested in, isn't it? The headlines and the political mud-slinging.

I agree with everything else you say.

[Stairway 2 7]

An article looking at Boris's WhatsApps. It isn't political gossip we got the only truthful insight into the decision making and without the usual spin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/the-minutes-notes-and-whatsapp-messages-shared-during-boris-johnsons-evidence-at-the-covid-inquiry-13024082

In these messages the current PM was called Dr death by scientific advisors over eat out help out. Its refreshing honesty that we wouldn't have got if they had deleted and transcribed what they wanted
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/rishi-sunak-dubbed-dr-death-in-covid-whatsapp-messages-12987761

A good article on Sunak deleting his messages
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/31/what-rishi-sunak-is-trying-to-hide-with-his-whatsapp-cover-up/
What is Rishi Sunak really trying to hide? That’s the inevitable question posed by the Prime Minister’s continued refusal to hand over key diaries and WhatsApp messages to the COVID Inquiry.

The refusal is no small thing. Under the terms of the Inquiries Act, ministers have a legal obligation to hand over any material which the inquiry’s chair, Lady Hallett, demands of them. Failure to do so could constitute a crime.

[Jack]

An article looking at Boris's WhatsApps. It isn't political gossip we got the only truthful insight into the decision making and without the usual spin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/the-minutes-notes-and-whatsapp-messages-shared-during-boris-johnsons-evidence-at-the-covid-inquiry-13024082

In these messages the current PM was called Dr death by scientific advisors over eat out help out. Its refreshing honesty that we wouldn't have got if they had deleted and transcribed what they wanted
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/rishi-sunak-dubbed-dr-death-in-covid-whatsapp-messages-12987761

A good article on Sunak deleting his messages
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/05/31/what-rishi-sunak-is-trying-to-hide-with-his-whatsapp-cover-up/
What is Rishi Sunak really trying to hide? That’s the inevitable question posed by the Prime Minister’s continued refusal to hand over key diaries and WhatsApp messages to the COVID Inquiry.

The refusal is no small thing. Under the terms of the Inquiries Act, ministers have a legal obligation to hand over any material which the inquiry’s chair, Lady Hallett, demands of them. Failure to do so could constitute a crime.

And you don't think there would be a full record, including options offered and implications to Ministers of how these decisions were made?

Is the Dr Death bit important to you?