SNP are lying b******s as well !

[CropleyWasGod]

68% of people think that local councils shouldn't exist and decisions should be made in Westminster :dunno:

So yes? 😄

[lapsedhibee]

So yes? ��

From now on, I'm complaining to Michael Green about potholes in Leith.

[Stairway 2 7]

Comparing turn out of a council election to a referendum on your nations independence is ridiculous, what was the turn out of the hibs club election

[CropleyWasGod]

Comparing turn out of a council election to a referendum on your nations independence is ridiculous, what was the turn out of the hibs club election

I wasn't comparing. I asked what I thought was a reasonable question. The point, of course, was to try and establish what would be a sufficient turnout that would reflect "the will.of the people ".

[Stairway 2 7]

I wasn't comparing. I asked what I thought was a reasonable question. The point, of course, was to try and establish what would be a sufficient turnout that would reflect "the will.of the people ".

The fact council election have people of all parties vote on it makes it irrelevant to this. The low turn out is due to people having little interest. The 32% is mixed, not just one side not voting

People obviously have huge interest in independence referendum. If one side doesn't vote and there is a decent amount under 50% turn out, no one will take it seriously

[CropleyWasGod]

The fact council election have people of all parties vote on it makes it irrelevant to this. The low turn out is due to people having little interest. The 32% is mixed, not just one side not voting

People obviously have huge interest in independence referendum. If one side doesn't vote and there is a decent amount under 50% turn out, no one will take it seriously

So "more than 50%"?

[JeMeSouviens]

The fact council election have people of all parties vote on it makes it irrelevant to this. The low turn out is due to people having little interest. The 32% is mixed, not just one side not voting

People obviously have huge interest in independence referendum. If one side doesn't vote and there is a decent amount under 50% turn out, no one will take it seriously

The last one was won with a little under 47% of the elecorate.

[Jack]

I can understand why people are against independence but I can't understand why people are against a democratic vote.

[Stairway 2 7]

The last one was won with a little under 47% of the elecorate.

I wouldn't say that was a decent amount under 50. But far more importantly both sides voted. All over the world no one takes a referendum seriously if its only one side voting.

Although I'm unsure if the snp want a vote right now when most polls are consistently No

[Jack]

I wouldn't say that was a decent amount under 50. But far more importantly both sides voted. All over the world no one takes a referendum seriously if its only one side voting.

Although I'm unsure if the snp want a vote right now when most polls are consistently No

The polls have been ***** hot at predcting all sorts of votes over the last decade or so. Or have they?

[Andy Bee]

I can understand why people are against independence but I can't understand why people are against a democratic vote.


You're not daft Jack, you know exactly why we're being denied a referendum. First line of defence, don't let those Jocks ask the question. Democracy doesn't come into it.

[Andy Bee]

We've just started a swear jar in the Bee household, after Debate Night on BBC I'm now £83 lighter, Rachael Hamilton should be banned from all future episodes

[JimBHibees]

We've just started a swear jar in the Bee household, after Debate Night on BBC I'm now £83 lighter, Rachael Hamilton should be banned from all future episodes

Who she?

[Stairway 2 7]

The polls have been ***** hot at predcting all sorts of votes over the last decade or so. Or have they?

They aren't completely accurate but if they are consistently saying this year that no is ahead, you unfortunately would be daft to say its anything but too close to call. We'd want to have a good lead and a bit of confidence going in. Because if this is another no, then I can't see another referendum for decades

[ronaldo7]

Who she?

Used to be the Tory shadow tourism minister, who was fined over £50,000 for breaking the law on workplace pensions at the upmarket hotel she owned. The fine had increased as she refused to pay the initial one.

Typical tory...one rule for the Plebs, another for them.

She also claimed last night that the unemployment rate was higher in Scotland than the UK...another lie.

[Jack]

They are completely accurate but if they are consistently saying this year that no is ahead, you unfortunately would be daft to say its anything but too close to call. We'd want to have a good lead and a bit of confidence going in. Because if this is another no, then I can't see another referendum for decades

Type 'why were the polls so wrong' into Google. Add in the UK if you wish.

[Stairway 2 7]

Type 'why were the polls so wrong' into Google. Add in the UK if you wish.

Sorry bad typo meant aren't accurate, but it makes it beyond doubt that it's close. You must be glass half full kind of guy if you think it isn't close

[Daily Hibs]

SNP Scotland is fast becoming a grim place to live under this Scottish Government.

[Jack]

SNP Scotland is fast becoming a grim place to live under this Scottish Government.

It's grim up north was a saying long before the SNP were about!

[Moulin Yarns]

I can understand why people are against independence but I can't understand why people are against a democratic vote.

This, 100%. What are they afraid of? 🤔

[greenginger]

I can understand why people are against independence but I can't understand why people are against a democratic vote.

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.

[Mon Dieu4]

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.

If you have in your manifesto that you will make it law that everyone has to eat cheese on a Tuesday and you win the election then it's your right to do so, doesn't matter what's been said previously or how much other people moan about it, it's democracy but some people seem to want to pick and choose what parts of that they actually want

Not like it's just one election either, it's every single one since 2014

[degenerated]

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.A political generation is 7 years. We know that because that is stated in the Belfast agreement, an agreement the British government are signatories to.

A generation can't surely be different in Northern Ireland to Scotland, no?

[lapsedhibee]

A political generation is 7 years. We know that because that is stated in the Belfast agreement, an agreement the British government are signatories to.

A generation can't surely be different in Northern Ireland to Scotland, no?

The definition of a word is whatever the current Conservative government says it is, that's what strong leadership's all about.

[degenerated]

The definition of a word is whatever the current Conservative government says it is, that's what strong leadership's all about.I should really know that. Consistency and facts are alien to them.

[grunt]

SNP Scotland is fast becoming a grim place to live under this Scottish Government.Maybe go somewhere else then?

[grunt]

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.
Long past time for another vote then. Perhaps this time people will vote more sensibly.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1519090353890070532?t=8z7BzQkYu_dqPztBVSgf2w&s=19

Legal advice on IndyRef2 to be published in June after a 13 month battle to release it under FOI laws. Scottish Government ministers found to have breached the FOI legislation.

Any news on Michael Goves illegal polling on Scottish independence which was supposed to be released within 4 weeks of July 15th 2021.

That dates not a typo. 😆

[JeMeSouviens]

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.

If it's in capitals, shouldn't it be NEVER! :wink:

https://alphahistory.com/northernireland/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ianpaisley.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

I wouldn't say that was a decent amount under 50. But far more importantly both sides voted. All over the world no one takes a referendum seriously if its only one side voting.

Although I'm unsure if the snp want a vote right now when most polls are consistently No

I agree. As I said, we won't get indy with EU approval by holding an advisory ref where the UKG isn't on board and the Unionist side boycotts. It's definitely worth playing the long game to keep EU sympathies on our side.

[lapsedhibee]

I agree. As I said, we won't get indy with EU approval by holding an advisory ref where the UKG isn't on board and the Unionist side boycotts. It's definitely worth playing the long game to keep EU sympathies on our side.

What if a non-advisory referendum is held and the NO side boycotts? Shirley that result then doesn't represent the will of the people etc etc etc.

[Bristolhibby]

We just had a once in a generation democratic vote on independence 8 years ago and the people vote NO.

Democracy isn’t static. We could have a vote every week if the government in Edinburgh declares it in their manifesto and they gain a majority at Holyrood of like minded MSPs.

It’s utter Bollox that we have to get blessed by Westminster to “allow” such a vote endorsed by the electorate of Scotland.

J

[LeithMike]

Democracy isn’t static. We could have a vote every week if the government in Edinburgh declares it in their manifesto and they gain a majority at Holyrood of like minded MSPs.

It’s utter Bollox that we have to get blessed by Westminster to “allow” such a vote endorsed by the electorate of Scotland.

JThere are other laws governing this. You cant have a stable constitutional settlement if its constantly under review and there is no respect for the rule of law.

If the boot was on the other foot, for example, how would you feel if Scotland voted for independence and Edinburgh and Lothian Councils then had a separate vote that they didnt want to be part of an independent Scotland and wanted to join up with the remainder of the UK? How would you feel if they kept running that until they got the result they wanted? How could any government make any plans.



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Mon Dieu4]

There are other laws governing this. You cant have a stable constitutional settlement if its constantly under review and there is no respect for the rule of law.

If the boot was on the other foot, for example, how would you feel if Scotland voted for independence and Edinburgh and Lothian Councils then had a separate vote that they didnt want to be part of an independent Scotland and wanted to join up with the remainder of the UK? How would you feel if they kept running that until they got the result they wanted? How could any government make any plans.



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

If they are elected on that basis then that's it, would be up to the opposition to garner enough support by explaining why it's such a bad idea and why we shouldn't vote for it

It's really straightforward and don't know why people act like there is something underhand going on, the SNP and Greens had it in their manifesto, it's not like they have thrown in a last minute curve ball by stealth

[JeMeSouviens]

There are other laws governing this. You cant have a stable constitutional settlement if its constantly under review and there is no respect for the rule of law.

If the boot was on the other foot, for example, how would you feel if Scotland voted for independence and Edinburgh and Lothian Councils then had a separate vote that they didnt want to be part of an independent Scotland and wanted to join up with the remainder of the UK? How would you feel if they kept running that until they got the result they wanted? How could any government make any plans.



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

There really aren't. Which is one of the reasons why we *don't* have a stable constitutional settlement.

The main reason though is that it's just too evenly divided. It's difficult to maintain Scotland as a UK region when almost or just over half the population don't want to be part of that state. Likewise, it's difficult to see how you can build a new state when almost or just over half the population don't want to be part of that.

[weecounty hibby]

There is a growing movement in England for English independence. A fantastic idea by the way!! I saw a poll recently that of those asked 50% were in favour. This raises two points for me. 1. Who will they ask if they want to leave the union? 2. How will they get round the conundrum that is on one hand saying Scotland is a drain on their resources and on the other explaining that actually without Scotland they would lose billions in finance and what actually keeps their lights on is coming from Scotland so maybe not a great idea.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is a growing movement in England for English independence. A fantastic idea by the way!! I saw a poll recently that of those asked 50% were in favour. This raises two points for me. 1. Who will they ask if they want to leave the union? 2. How will they get round the conundrum that is on one hand saying Scotland is a drain on their resources and on the other explaining that actually without Scotland they would lose billions in finance and what actually keeps their lights on is coming from Scotland so maybe not a great idea.

England would definitely gain in short term fiscal terms from ditching Scotland. You might not believe the minutiae of GERS but it's in the right ballpark.

There are, however, very good reasons for their political class to be against it - a home for nuclear subs and security of energy supply being the main 2. Ultimately, it comes down to international willy waving. The loss of face that comes with a loss of territory is too much for them to stomach. Same thing that motivates Putin, tbh. You would hope they won't use that motivation in quite such a mad ******* way though!

[grunt]

There are, however, very good reasons for their political class to be against it - a home for nuclear subs and security of energy supply being the main 2.

Andrew Marr talking rubbish in the New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/04/putins-war-could-be-the-undoing-of-nicola-sturgeon (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/04/putins-war-could-be-the-undoing-of-nicola-sturgeon)


The Ministry of Defence has considered, and rejected, sites in south Wales – too near oil and gas installations – and on the southern English coast – too close to busy sea lanes and heavily populated areas.

[Andy Bee]

SNP Scotland is fast becoming a grim place to live under this Scottish Government.

Aye, especially if you're a low income family with a couple of kids. £20 a week for each kid 6 years old and under changing to 16 years old and rising to £25. When those kids choose to go to Uni that'll be free along with free bus travel, they choose to become nurses so a bursary is incoming with a final salary higher than the rest of the UK, free prescriptions when needed but OMG those ****** ferries.

All of the above are not available south of the border so no child payment, £9k a year plus IIRC 12% interest for uni, no free bus travel, no free prescriptions, no bursary for trainee nurses and a lower salary when qualified. If it's bad up here it's worse down there.

[JeMeSouviens]

Andrew Marr talking rubbish in the New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/04/putins-war-could-be-the-undoing-of-nicola-sturgeon (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/04/putins-war-could-be-the-undoing-of-nicola-sturgeon)

So, the SNP are going to lose a referendum on Scottish independence because England doesn't want to give up its nukes? :confused:

Weird logic in that article, mostly shot through with Marr's wishful thinking. I guess if Britain had done as good a job of Brit-ifying the Scottish population as a whole as it has done with the landed and political elites, there would be no indy movement and we'd all be quiescent North Brits.

[Stairway 2 7]

England would definitely gain in short term fiscal terms from ditching Scotland. You might not believe the minutiae of GERS but it's in the right ballpark.

There are, however, very good reasons for their political class to be against it - a home for nuclear subs and security of energy supply being the main 2. Ultimately, it comes down to international willy waving. The loss of face that comes with a loss of territory is too much for them to stomach. Same thing that motivates Putin, tbh. You would hope they won't use that motivation in quite such a mad ******* way though!

I agree. I believe Scotland will be financially worse initially. But that isn't the reason not to independent. Can shake of this vile tory government. Yes there will be Scottish Conservatives, but I think they will have to be more central and will get beat generally.

We'll also have a fairer society. We'll obviously also have massive potential, hopefully inside Europe

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd think devo max if was actually a thing and not pish spouted by brown, would definitely pass a referendum

[Santa Cruz]

Aye, especially if you're a low income family with a couple of kids. £20 a week for each kid 6 years old and under changing to 16 years old and rising to £25. When those kids choose to go to Uni that'll be free along with free bus travel, they choose to become nurses so a bursary is incoming with a final salary higher than the rest of the UK, free prescriptions when needed but OMG those ****** ferries. All of the above are not available south of the border so no child payment, £9k a year plus IIRC 12% interest for uni, no free bus travel, no free prescriptions, no bursary for trainee nurses and a lower salary when qualified. If it's bad up here it's worse down there.Under 16's have had free bus and tram travel in London since 2005. Can't be bothered wae the back and forth, so am just browsing, just pointing this fact out in case you weren't aware. It was brought in to ease congestion on the tubes during rush hour if I recall correctly.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd think devo max if was actually a thing and not pish spouted by brown, would definitely pass a referendum

So do I but there is zero way for it to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Under 16's have had free bus and tram travel in London since 2005. Can't be bothered wae the back and forth, so am just browsing, just pointing this fact out in case you weren't aware. It was brought in to ease congestion on the tubes during rush hour if I recall correctly.

Great policy when it arrived, but they've having difficulty keeping it. TFL getting bailed out by central government, and with Grant Shapps trying to get TFL to remove some of the free journeys for some older kids, it might come under pressure when the Tories come back, and they will.

It's a great policy wherever it's implemented, and I'm delighted the Scottish Government have increased it to Under 22's for the whole Nation.

https://www.cityam.com/tfl-agrees-1-6bn-bailout-deal-with-government/#:~:text=The%20bailout%20is%20made%20up%20of%20%C2 %A31.1bn%20in,on%20the%20board%20that%20oversees%2 0the%20transport%20operator.

[SteveHFC]

They aren't completely accurate but if they are consistently saying this year that no is ahead, you unfortunately would be daft to say its anything but too close to call. We'd want to have a good lead and a bit of confidence going in. Because if this is another no, then I can't see another referendum for decades

My fear is if this is a no vote again, we won't get another referendum ever again.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hope there is a parking charge

George Allison
@geoallison
·
NATO Nuclear submarines from three countries have converged at a naval base near Glasgow in Scotland, near the North Atlantic. There's an American 🇺🇸 Virginia class submarine and a French 🇫🇷 Rubis class submarine in addition to the British 🇬🇧 submarines based there

[Jack]

Hope there is a parking charge

George Allison
@geoallison
·
NATO Nuclear submarines from three countries have converged at a naval base near Glasgow in Scotland, near the North Atlantic. There's an American 🇺🇸 Virginia class submarine and a French 🇫🇷 Rubis class submarine in addition to the British 🇬🇧 submarines based there

I think you'll find that's docking fees 😆

[He's here!]

BBC: Sturgeon accused of 'lie' over ferry contract

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61306935

[degenerated]

BBC: Sturgeon accused of 'lie' over ferry contract

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61306935Is that the same Jim McColl that was caught out lying about said contract after he claimed not to have signed it?

[CropleyWasGod]

BBC: Sturgeon accused of 'lie' over ferry contract

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61306935


It might have sounded better coming from someone who lied about his signature being on the contract.

[Stairway 2 7]

So did both lie. I read on here it saved 400 jobs

[CropleyWasGod]

So did both lie. I read on here it saved 400 jobs

From that article:-

a spokesman for the first minister said she had been "clearly referring to the 400 people currently employed at the yard".

He added: "Those 400 jobs would not currently exist if the Scottish government had not taken the action we did to save the yard - that is a fact"

[Stairway 2 7]

From that article:-

a spokesman for the first minister said she had been "clearly referring to the 400 people currently employed at the yard".

He added: "Those 400 jobs would not currently exist if the Scottish government had not taken the action we did to save the yard - that is a fact"

I mean that other boats were lined up to be built anyway. Not a big deal regardless as the contract would have helped. Although it would have been better if they had never got it as its been such a disaster

[greenginger]

Is that the same Jim McColl that was caught out lying about said contract after he claimed not to have signed it?

Yeah, but he said he had forgotten, a bit like Nicola at the Salmond inquiry.

[JimBHibees]

BBC: Sturgeon accused of 'lie' over ferry contract

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61306935

Surprising for BBC to report an anti snp line

[Eaststand]

Surprising for BBC to report an anti snp line

If the BBC were to report every lie one of their friendly Tory politicians told each day, there would simply be no room for any other news stories though.

GGTTH

[Moulin Yarns]

BBC: Sturgeon accused of 'lie' over ferry contract

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61306935

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/ferguson-marine-shipyard-saved-scottish-18946174

Proof that Jim mcColl is a liar as well!

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/ferguson-marine-shipyard-saved-scottish-18946174

Proof that Jim mcColl is a liar as well!


So it is your belief that both are dishonest, yeah?

One elected, the other not accountable to the public in any way whatsoever.

[Moulin Yarns]

So it is your belief that both are dishonest, yeah?

One elected, the other not accountable to the public in any way whatsoever.

I think looking at what is known by us plebs that the yard was put into administration by McColl. Nobody came forward to buy it and the SG stepped in to save it.

According to who you believed it saved either 150 or 350 jobs at the time.

The yard had 5 boats under construction at the time.

I know McColl is accusing sturgeon of lying, but all the information points to him lying. Only time and a public inquiry will tell who lied the most.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think looking at what is known by us plebs that the yard was put into administration by McColl. Nobody came forward to buy it and the SG stepped in to save it.

According to who you believed it saved either 150 or 350 jobs at the time.

The yard had 5 boats under construction at the time.

I know McColl is accusing sturgeon of lying, but all the information points to him lying. Only time and a public inquiry will tell who lied the most.

He said it himself that he got it wrong. It's in that BBC piece.

[Berwickhibby]

I saw a tweet of Sally MacDonald standing in front of the SNP battle bus stating “all aboard the Gravy Bus” is this because they cannot build a Gravy Boat :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I saw a tweet of Sally MacDonald standing in front of the SNP battle bus stating “all aboard the Gravy Bus” is this because they cannot build a Gravy Boat :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

Very good. :top marks

Don't know about the rest of you but I can hardly wait until 6.30 for the next episode of Reporting Ferries.

[Andy Bee]

I'm not saying that this ferry fiasco shouldn't be investigated it rightly should but the airtime it's getting is unbelievable when you consider a Tory peer has had her house and offices raided by Police over an alleged fraud involving multi millions of pounds of tax payers money and there's diddly squat being reported on the BBC.

[Berwickhibby]

I'm not saying that this ferry fiasco shouldn't be investigated it rightly should but the airtime it's getting is unbelievable when you consider a Tory peer has had her house and offices raided by Police over an alleged fraud involving multi millions of pounds of tax payers money and there's diddly squat being reported on the BBC.

That’s because the Tory Peer is under a Criminal investigation and therefore whilst the investigation is on going reporting about it is covered by sub judicie as there could be further arrests and/or charges. The Ferry fiasco is not criminal just incompetence.

sub judice
/sʌb ˈdʒuːdɪsi,sʊb ˈjuːdɪkeɪ/
adjectiveLAW
adjective: subjudice
under judicial consideration and therefore prohibited from public discussion elsewhere.
"the cases were still sub judice"

[Andy Bee]

That’s because the Tory Peer is under a Criminal investigation and therefore whilst the investigation is on going reporting about it is covered by sub judicie as there could be further arrests and/or charges. The Ferry fiasco is not criminal just incompetence.

sub judice
/sʌb ˈdʒuːdɪsi,sʊb ˈjuːdɪkeɪ/
adjectiveLAW
adjective: subjudice
under judicial consideration and therefore prohibited from public discussion elsewhere.
"the cases were still sub judice"

I don't doubt your answer but it's being widely reported elsewhere, the National is actually reporting on the lack of BBC cover. Come to think of it, it isn't sub judice is it? Sub judice would be if it was in the courts which it isn't, it's an investigation. Ergo there's no reason for not reporting it apart from the BBC trying to protect her and whoever else is involved, one rule for the SG and another for the Tories as per.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20107509.bbc-refuses-say-hasnt-covered-tory-peer-michelle-mones-london-house-raid/

[Berwickhibby]

I don't doubt your answer but it's being widely reported elsewhere, the National is actually reporting on the lack of BBC cover. Come to think of it, it isn't sub judice is it? Sub judice would be if it was in the courts which it isn't, it's an investigation. Ergo there's no reason for not reporting it apart from the BBC trying to protect her and whoever else is involved, one rule for the SG and another for the Tories as per.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20107509.bbc-refuses-say-hasnt-covered-tory-peer-michelle-mones-london-house-raid/

Sub judicie also covers criminal investigations and is used regularly if there is a likelihood of more arrests

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1524388722279690240?s=21&t=DL60rjdFU4voRd9ofjhUzQ

Missing document found.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1524388722279690240?s=21&t=DL60rjdFU4voRd9ofjhUzQ

Missing document found.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That'll be a relief to the team on Reporting Ferries, it's a hard enough half hour to fill as it is.

"Now over to our permanently stationed reporter in Adrossan, tell us, just how big a disaster for Sturgeon is this latest bombshell?"

[Moulin Yarns]

That'll be a relief to the team on Reporting Ferries, it's a hard enough half hour to fill as it is.

"Now over to our permanently stationed reporter in Adrossan, tell us, just how big a disaster for Sturgeon is this latest bombshell?"

Further down that twitter rant is an extract saying that the contract between CMAL and Ferguson Marine was fixed price, so the question I have is how Ferguson Marine managed to run up so much over run on costs in a fixed price contract?!

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1524388722279690240?s=21&t=DL60rjdFU4voRd9ofjhUzQ

Missing document found.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mackay hung out for another drying.

[James310]

They couldn't even redact the document correctly.

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1524716819206090753?t=_SvgeTEfD7AvOb9rD2x91A&s=19

Copy and pasting it into Word meant you could remove all the blacked out sections.

[Stairway 2 7]

They couldn't even redact the document correctly.

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1524716819206090753?t=_SvgeTEfD7AvOb9rD2x91A&s=19

Copy and pasting it into Word meant you could remove all the blacked out sections.

😆

[Ozyhibby]

They couldn't even redact the document correctly.

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/status/1524716819206090753?t=_SvgeTEfD7AvOb9rD2x91A&s=19

Copy and pasting it into Word meant you could remove all the blacked out sections.

And was the smoking gun behind the redactions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

And was the smoking gun behind the redactions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

None, just more warnings about the significant risks it posed, that were ignored anyway. Not sure why the need to try and redact.

This explains it quite well though.

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1524728735546716160?t=dT5vDNCvQUfvBMmcrO5Q9A&s=19

[He's here!]

Natalie McGarry: Former SNP MP found guilty of embezzling £25,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61421280)

I didn't follow the first trial closely, but having read more about this one it seems reasonable to suggest that she wasn't somebody who was really cut out for a position of responsibility and the demands that brings. Whether or not that's the case it's been a very sorry saga and presumably she now faces a prison sentence?

[Ozyhibby]

Natalie McGarry: Former SNP MP found guilty of embezzling £25,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61421280)

I didn't follow the first trial closely, but having read more about this one it seems reasonable to suggest that she wasn't somebody who was really cut out for a position of responsibility and the demands that brings. Whether or not that's the case it's been a very sorry saga and presumably she now faces a prison sentence?

She is probably looking at some time in prison although a sensible system would just put someone like her on an electronic tag.


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[He's here!]

None, just more warnings about the significant risks it posed, that were ignored anyway. Not sure why the need to try and redact.

This explains it quite well though.

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1524728735546716160?t=dT5vDNCvQUfvBMmcrO5Q9A&s=19

It's a shambles (and the number of ****-ups Swinney has been associated with must surely embarrass him?) but as long as Nicola just continues to deflect all criticism away by playing the 'we're not as shambolic as the Tories' card I'm sure it will all eventually blow over.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a shambles (and the number of ****-ups Swinney has been associated with must surely embarrass him?) but as long as Nicola just continues to deflect all criticism away by playing the 'we're not as shambolic as the Tories' card I'm sure it will all eventually blow over.

To be fair, being the least worst option should be enough to win any election.


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[Since90+2]

To be fair, being the least worst option should be enough to win any election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe so, but it doesn't exactly say a lot for the quality and depth of policitians in the country.

[marinello59]

To be fair, being the least worst option should be enough to win any election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What a sad observation on politics in Scotland today.

[Kato]

Maybe so, but it doesn't exactly say a lot for the quality and depth of policitians in the country....but it's where we are at.

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[Ozyhibby]

What a sad observation on politics in Scotland today.

That’s the same in any country in the world.


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[He's here!]

She is probably looking at some time in prison although a sensible system would just put someone like her on an electronic tag.


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'Elevated beyond her abilities' (and did not undergo a rigorous selection process, according to this, presumably thanks in a large part to her family connections in the party):

Natalie McGarry: The rise and fall of ex-SNP MP who was once a 'star in the making' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/natalie-mcgarry-the-rise-and-fall-of-ex-snp-mp-who-was-once-a-star-in-the-making/ar-AAXcvbf?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[He's here!]

That’s the same in any country in the world.


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The bar seems set especially low these days, however (the US being the most glaring example). Or is it just that the level of scrutiny now (ie it's a lot harder to 'disappear' things in the electronic age) dissuades a lot of more talented folk from political careers?

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61422970

I'm unclear how Swinney's 'I only signed off the costs' line somehow absolves him of responsibility?

[Berwickhibby]

She is probably looking at some time in prison although a sensible system would just put someone like her on an electronic tag.


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Why do you think she should only be on tag, she used her position of trust to steal ….she received 18 months previously for these crimes when she pleaded guilty… I expect she will receive a longer sentence this time.

[Keith_M]

On a lighter note...


When we were at Glasgow Airport last week, there was a great big sign on one of the out buildings that said 'NATS'.

My wife said, "typical SNP, they have to get their name on everything"

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Why do you think she should only be on tag, she used her position of trust to steal ….she received 18 months previously for these crimes when she pleaded guilty… I expect she will receive a longer sentence this time.

I just don’t think prison works and I would use the tag for all non violent offences. Nothing to do with who she is.


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[greenginger]

I just don’t think prison works and I would use the tag for all non violent offences. Nothing to do with who she is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What about scammers who defraud the old and vulnerable out of their life savings.

just stick a tag on their ankle and let them continue scamming on a associates computer.

[Ozyhibby]

What about scammers who defraud the old and vulnerable out of their life savings.

just stick a tag on their ankle and let them continue scamming on a associates computer.

I’m not saying you don’t keep prison as a last resort. I just think we over use it at the moment.


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[Jack]

What about scammers who defraud the old and vulnerable out of their life savings.

just stick a tag on their ankle and let them continue scamming on a associates computer.

I agree with you and Ozy!

I think prison, as we know it, should be for crimes that involve violence but add to that crimes of a serious nature.

There are countries in Europe where non dangerous criminals are basically kept in a hostel type jail overnight and at weekends. During what might be described as working hours they are allowed out to carry on their job or in some way repay society for their crime.

Anyway it's probably a debate for another day on a thread of its own if/when it has a chance of becoming a reality.

[Berwickhibby]

So the two coppers who took pictures of a crime scene, which contained murdered victims and shared it with others on a private WhatsApp group, were sent to prison …correct sentence ?

[weecounty hibby]

So the two coppers who took pictures of a crime scene, which contained murdered victims and shared it with others on a private WhatsApp group, were sent to prison …correct sentence ?

I know you were asking another poster about this but probably. And I think McGarry deserves prison too. She stole money when in a position of trust. I believe some of the money was to be used for charitable donations. Both pretty low acts to be honest. I'm not sure that having a tag on for a few months is that much of a deterrent for stealing 30+k

[Ozyhibby]

So the two coppers who took pictures of a crime scene, which contained murdered victims and shared it with others on a private WhatsApp group, were sent to prison …correct sentence ?

No, not for me. Not sure the details of that case but sounds like horrific behaviour. That said, it doesn’t sound like either are a danger to the public?
Obviously they lost their jobs. Whatever the prison sentence was though could easily be served at home under house arrest. The money saved could be used for proper rehabilitation programmes. Meanwhile after an appropriate period the restrictions on their sentence can be eased to allow them to find jobs and start contributing to society again. It also allows their family life to continue (in a very limited way). The costs of family breakdown due to prison can be spread over a child’s lifetime.


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[Ozyhibby]

I know you were asking another poster about this but probably. And I think McGarry deserves prison too. She stole money when in a position of trust. I believe some of the money was to be used for charitable donations. Both pretty low acts to be honest. I'm not sure that having a tag on for a few months is that much of a deterrent for stealing 30+k

The tag can be on for a few years if it’s felt appropriate. It is a significant restriction of liberty. Imagine being told you can only leave the house to go to work for 3 years?


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[Berwickhibby]

I know you were asking another poster about this but probably. And I think McGarry deserves prison too. She stole money when in a position of trust. I believe some of the money was to be used for charitable donations. Both pretty low acts to be honest. I'm not sure that having a tag on for a few months is that much of a deterrent for stealing 30+k

My point is similar…position of trust broken … she initially pleaded guilty, got a custodial which would include a reduction for her plea…changed her mind, as I don’t think she was expecting a prison sentence…at the very least the courts will remove the reduction and she will serve the recommended tariff

[weecounty hibby]

No, not for me. Not sure the details of that case but sounds like horrific behaviour. That said, it doesn’t sound like either are a danger to the public?
Obviously they lost their jobs. Whatever the prison sentence was though could easily be served at home under house arrest. The money saved could be used for proper rehabilitation programmes. Meanwhile after an appropriate period the restrictions on their sentence can be eased to allow them to find jobs and start contributing to society again. It also allows their family life to continue (in a very limited way). The costs of family breakdown due to prison can be spread over a child’s lifetime.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Again you are correct in that they probably aren't a danger to society but they were in a position of trust and power and abused both of these to take pictures of two dead bodies and share them about on WhatsApp. A wee bit of house arrest isn't a deterrent in my opinion. Yes they lost their jobs but that is a disciplinary matter at work rather than a legal matter and shouldn't be seen as an addition to the legal route.

[Ozyhibby]

Again you are correct in that they probably aren't a danger to society but they were in a position of trust and power and abused both of these to take pictures of two dead bodies and share them about on WhatsApp. A wee bit of house arrest isn't a deterrent in my opinion. Yes they lost their jobs but that is a disciplinary matter at work rather than a legal matter and shouldn't be seen as an addition to the legal route.

Deterrence is over rated. Nobody ever thinks they are going to get caught. If deterrence worked, you would have no murder in America.
It’s not a wee bit of house arrest. It can be a long sentence if need be.


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[James310]

My point is similar…position of trust broken … she initially pleaded guilty, got a custodial which would include a reduction for her plea…changed her mind, as I don’t think she was expecting a prison sentence…at the very least the courts will remove the reduction and she will serve the recommended tariff

How can you plead guilty get a custodial sentence and then just change your mind? I assume that's allowed but sounds bizarre.

[Berwickhibby]

How can you plead guilty get a custodial sentence and then just change your mind? I assume that's allowed but sounds bizarre.

She appealed her conviction at the court of session claiming she had received poor/wrong legal advice, amazingly she won.

[Stairway 2 7]

So the two coppers who took pictures of a crime scene, which contained murdered victims and shared it with others on a private WhatsApp group, were sent to prison …correct sentence ?

No and same with this woman. The need punished financially and should be tagged and in there house say 6pm to 6am. Take there liberty another way.

Prisons do not work. They don't rehabilitate, they make people into criminals. It's an old fashioned view. We should be following Scandinavia and not the US.

[greenginger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61427216

I see that the SNP creation of Police Scotland is costing us taxpayers another £1 million.

A drop in the ocean compared £50 million on the Rangers debacle I suppose.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61427216

I see that the SNP creation of Police Scotland is costing us taxpayers another £1 million.

A drop in the ocean compared £50 million on the Rangers debacle I suppose.

Pretty sure those attitudes would have been the same if it had remained as Lothian and Borders. The result wouldn't have been any different.

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty sure those attitudes would have been the same if it had remained as Lothian and Borders. The result wouldn't have been any different.

Besides, Police Scotland can point to crime being 60% lower in Scotland than in England and Wales to claim that overall, they are doing a good job.


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[lapsedhibee]

Pretty sure those attitudes would have been the same if it had remained as Lothian and Borders.

SNP have been in power for 15 years. Shirley it's their fault that sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and sectarianism haven't been entirely stamped out of society by now? :dunno:

[Keith_M]

SNP have been in power for 15 years. Shirley it's their fault that sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and sectarianism haven't been entirely stamped out of society by now? :dunno:


Could any party completely stamp out things like that from society?

I'm not keen on the Tories but I don't blame them for the existence of racism and misogyny in society.

I agree, though, that they (both) could do more.

[Berwickhibby]

My disappointment is not with the Government, it’s the system that awards almost £1m of taxpayers Money for sexist behaviour within the firearms unit, but officers who have received life changing injuries whilst on duty get cast with a fraction of that amount.

[Jack]

SNP have been in power for 15 years. Shirley it's their fault that sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and sectarianism haven't been entirely stamped out of society by now? :dunno:

Westminster has been on the go for centuries and such things are apparently worse than they've ever been with the institution itself at the centre of it!

[Jack]

My disappointment is not with the Government, it’s the system that awards almost £1m of taxpayers Money for sexist behaviour within the firearms unit, but officers who have received life changing injuries whilst on duty get cast with a fraction of that amount.

Was the firearms thing not the failure of a number of individuals rather than the system?

[Berwickhibby]

Was the firearms thing not the failure of a number of individuals rather than the system?

Still a system, which allows huge sums to be paid out for poor behaviour within an institution but allows injured officers and military personnel to scrap for nothing. Please note not I do not point the finger at the Scottish Government for this, it happens through out the UK

[Moulin Yarns]

Still a system, which allows huge sums to be paid out for poor behaviour within an institution but allows injured officers and military personnel to scrap for nothing. Please note not I do not point the finger at the Scottish Government for this, it happens through out the UK

I'm pretty sure the case was one of constructive dismissal on the grounds of sexual discrimination. That's covered by strong legislation. Someone injured in the line of duty will have other avenues to go down for claiming compensation.

[Berwickhibby]

I'm pretty sure the case was one of constructive dismissal on the grounds of sexual discrimination. That's covered by strong legislation. Someone injured in the line of duty will have other avenues to go down for claiming compensation.

She was not dismissed she managed to leave under Ill health due to stress and was granted an Ill health pension

[Moulin Yarns]

She was not dismissed she managed to leave under Ill health due to stress and was granted an Ill health pension

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61449144


https://news.stv.tv/scotland/ex-firearms-officer-says-1m-police-payout-will-not-make-up-for-pain



Industrial tribunal ruling

[McD]

She was not dismissed she managed to leave under Ill health due to stress and was granted an Ill health pension


constructive dismissal isn’t actually being dismissed, it’s where someone’s unemployment is made untenable through the actions of their employer, which is what happened here. That’s how it went to employment tribunal


i agree separately with your point about someone injured in the line of duty though

[ronaldo7]

Was the firearms thing not the failure of a number of individuals rather than the system?

Yup.

Male police officers. There'll still be some in post.

They'll be gutted she won her award. Well done, I say.

It might shine a bit of light on the misogynists in the police.

[Berwickhibby]

Yup.

Male police officers. There'll still be some in post.

They'll be gutted she won her award. Well done, I say.

It might shine a bit of light on the misogynists in the police.

I am pleased she won her case but I find the compensation amount disgusting compared to what others received, my former colleague got shot in the face which blinded him for life, this effected his mental health, he self medicated with alcohol, his marriage collapsed and he committed suicide … his compensation award was not even a 20th of that figure.

[Hibrandenburg]

I am pleased she won her case but I find the compensation amount disgusting compared to what others received, my former colleague got shot in the face which blinded him for life, this effected his mental health, he self medicated with alcohol, his marriage collapsed and he committed suicide … his compensation award was not even a 20th of that figure.

I'm sorry to hear about your colleague, but I'm guessing he was a victim of crime rather than his employer.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am pleased she won her case but I find the compensation amount disgusting compared to what others received, my former colleague got shot in the face which blinded him for life, this effected his mental health, he self medicated with alcohol, his marriage collapsed and he committed suicide … his compensation award was not even a 20th of that figure.

https://www.polfed.org/northyorks/about-us/injury-on-duty/


The second paragraph leaps out. Plus ambulance chasing lawyers will fight for compensation.

The policewoman who suffered mental health issues because of the misogyny and sexual discrimination left the police because she was unable to continue under the conditions she faced so took the police to to an industrial tribunal, perhaps others should as well.


Obviously none of that is laid at the door of the Scottish Government but is endemic in police forces across the UK.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.polfed.org/northyorks/about-us/injury-on-duty/


The second paragraph leaps out. Plus ambulance chasing lawyers will fight for compensation.

The policewoman who suffered mental health issues because of the misogyny and sexual discrimination left the police because she was unable to continue under the conditions she faced so took the police to to an industrial tribunal, perhaps others should as well.


Obviously none of that is laid at the door of the Scottish Government but is endemic in police forces across the UK.

If your final sentence is aimed at me then I already stated earlier that I do not point the finger at the Scottish Government, it’s the system which allows excessive payouts of tax payers money to some and not for others who imho suffered with greater injuries

[Moulin Yarns]

If your final sentence is aimed at me then I already stated earlier that I do not point the finger at the Scottish Government, it’s the system which allows excessive payouts of tax payers money to some and not for others who imho suffered with greater injuries

Not aimed at you, but wondered what it's got to do with the Scottish Government or indeed the SNP.

The police federation should probably be making more of an effort on behalf of its members who are injured in the line of duty though.

[He's here!]

New leaked report reveals £250m ferries may never sail:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/

No wonder Sturgeon's found an excuse to jet off to the US...

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.polfed.org/northyorks/about-us/injury-on-duty/


The second paragraph leaps out. Plus ambulance chasing lawyers will fight for compensation.

The policewoman who suffered mental health issues because of the misogyny and sexual discrimination left the police because she was unable to continue under the conditions she faced so took the police to to an industrial tribunal, perhaps others should as well.


Obviously none of that is laid at the door of the Scottish Government but is endemic in police forces across the UK.

Ambulance chasing lawyers or lawyers that help poor people?
The law is there to help everyone, even those who don’t know they need it.
If either of my kids go into law I would be proud if they became ‘Ambulance chasers’.


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[overdrive]

Natalie McGarry: Former SNP MP found guilty of embezzling £25,000 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61421280)

I didn't follow the first trial closely, but having read more about this one it seems reasonable to suggest that she wasn't somebody who was really cut out for a position of responsibility and the demands that brings. Whether or not that's the case it's been a very sorry saga and presumably she now faces a prison sentence?

I did the first stage of my accountancy exams with her husband until he failed them repeatedly, left his job (probably asked to leave), and then concentrated on politics (he’s a Tory councillor in Glasgow). He was a very strange character. He seems to be sticking by her by the look of it. I’m surprised as it can’t look good for him - he stepped down as leader of Glasgow tories “for family reasons”.

Always struck me that they made a strange couple being so different politically.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ambulance chasing lawyers or lawyers that help poor people?
The law is there to help everyone, even those who don’t know they need it.
If either of my kids go into law I would be proud if they became ‘Ambulance chasers’.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe the wrong phrase, but when I was looking for the link I posted it was preceded by ones for lawyers offering no win no fee compensation claims.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe the wrong phrase, but when I was looking for the link I posted it was preceded by ones for lawyers offering no win no fee compensation claims.

I know, I just feel those lawyers get a raw deal. They are the only type of lawyers most people can afford and yet they are somehow seen as less prestigious than the lawyers in big corporate firms helping oligarchs, gangsters and dictators hide their money.


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[Bostonhibby]

I know, I just feel those lawyers get a raw deal. They are the only type of lawyers most people can afford and yet they are somehow seen as less prestigious than the lawyers in big corporate firms helping oligarchs, gangsters and dictators hide their money.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDealt with both most of my working life, the existence of the big corporates and their wealthy clients coupled with the difficulty poor, or at least not very wealthy, have in getting access to affordable law means there's always a place for no win no fee arrangements, and all the other derogatory terms thrown at them.

For what it's worth I say that from a mostly corporate and defendant angle.

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[stu in nottingham]

I’m not saying you don’t keep prison as a last resort. I just think we over use it at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with your views on the lack of effectiveness of custodial sentences. It's curious though that many members of the public see prison as not being used enough. Evident in some of the sometimes quite rabid comments on newspaper articles about convictions.

Working in forensic psychology a few years ago it seemed clear to me that prison was not really the answer and that more importantly this was a generally held view in the Ministry of Justice. Recall there were many studies and initiatives regarding diversion practices designed as alternatives to prison at that time and I'd imagine that's still the case.

[Jones28]

New leaked report reveals £250m ferries may never sail:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/

No wonder Sturgeon's found an excuse to jet off to the US...

So the first minister should be personally responsible for over seeing shipyards and inspecting these ferries herself?

[weecounty hibby]

New leaked report reveals £250m ferries may never sail:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/

No wonder Sturgeon's found an excuse to jet off to the US...
I know this will be badged as whataboutery but you don't seem too upset about the Ajax armoured vehicles, HS2, Crossrail, the aircraft carriers, NHS computer system etc etc etc etc etc. The ferries hasn't been handled well at all but for **** sake get a bit of perspective. Every single one if those is way way more over spent than the ferries. In fact let's have a look at PPE, track and trace during the pandemic. I don't see you all over those issues. As I say this is not excusing what has gone in with the ferries but you are like a dog with a bone about it while ignoring everything else

[He's here!]

So the first minister should be personally responsible for over seeing shipyards and inspecting these ferries herself?

The buck stops with her (as she's admitted, though Mackay is being made the scapegoat).

Full sorry saga well summarised here:

https://www.theweek.co.uk/business/956731/scotland-ongoing-ferry-fiasco-explained

[He's here!]

I know this will be badged as whataboutery but you don't seem too upset about the Ajax armoured vehicles, HS2, Crossrail, the aircraft carriers, NHS computer system etc etc etc etc etc. The ferries hasn't been handled well at all but for **** sake get a bit of perspective. Every single one if those is way way more over spent than the ferries. In fact let's have a look at PPE, track and trace during the pandemic. I don't see you all over those issues. As I say this is not excusing what has gone in with the ferries but you are like a dog with a bone about it while ignoring everything else

It's an SNP bashing thread.

[weecounty hibby]

It's an SNP bashing thread.
Any sign of you talking about these things on the Tory thread then? Hypocrite. I am happy to criticise the Scottish government over ferries but you are completely blinkered about everything else

[He's here!]

SNP have been in power for 15 years. Shirley it's their fault that sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and sectarianism haven't been entirely stamped out of society by now? :dunno:

'Scotland is a racist country'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61455683

[He's here!]

Any sign of you talking about these things on the Tory thread then? Hypocrite. I am happy to criticise the Scottish government over ferries but you are completely blinkered about everything else

I don't think any of the issues you listed have been handled well, but my time on here tends to be limited and it seems to me there's plenty Tory bashing to go around, so I'll tend to proritise the SNP bashing.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't think any of the issues you listed have been handled well, but my time on here tends to be limited and it seems to me there's plenty Tory bashing to go around, so I'll tend to proritise the SNP bashing.

Good for you. Hypocrite

[Jones28]

The buck stops with her (as she's admitted, though Mackay is being made the scapegoat).

Full sorry saga well summarised here:

https://www.theweek.co.uk/business/956731/scotland-ongoing-ferry-fiasco-explained

So she’s admitted and accepted the buck stops with her but you’re still twisting the knife? Seems fair. At least she, unlike her conservative counter parts, actually admits fault and takes blame.

[ronaldo7]

I am pleased she won her case but I find the compensation amount disgusting compared to what others received, my former colleague got shot in the face which blinded him for life, this effected his mental health, he self medicated with alcohol, his marriage collapsed and he committed suicide … his compensation award was not even a 20th of that figure.

Sorry to hear about your friend, however the two systems are not the same. Maybe the victims of crime system needs updating. Is shouldn't take away from the pain and suffering felt by the police woman.

Meanwhile, the misogynists need to be rooted out, for good. I'm sure they've started.

[He's here!]

Good for you. Hypocrite

I think you maybe take this more seriously than me. There's no forum rule that states if you criticise the SNP you then have to pop over to the Tory thread and level things up. Or vice versa. Everyone knows the Westminster government have presided over a series of shambles, but I find it depressing that for as long as Boris Johnson is PM the SNP's own uninspiring standards of governance can be 'whatabouteried' away. As somebody else pointed out earlier on this thread being the 'least worst' option is a sorry reflection on the current standard of UK politics.

[degenerated]

New leaked report reveals £250m ferries may never sail:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/

No wonder Sturgeon's found an excuse to jet off to the US...Sturgeon.....25858

[weecounty hibby]

I think you maybe take this more seriously than me. There's no forum rule that states if you criticise the SNP you then have to pop over to the Tory thread and level things up. Or vice versa. Everyone knows the Westminster government have presided over a series of shambles, but I find it depressing that for as long as Boris Johnson is PM the SNP's own uninspiring standards of governance can be 'whatabouteried' away. As somebody else pointed out earlier on this thread being the 'least worst' option is a sorry reflection on the current standard of UK politics.
As I say. Complete and utter hypocrite. You do not ever criticise anything the Tories do. I am happy to criticise the Scottish government on ferries, education, anything I feel they could do better on. But you are just a constant rash over anything snp but not ever anything UK government or Tories. Try being balanced

[He's here!]

As I say. Complete and utter hypocrite. You do not ever criticise anything the Tories do. I am happy to criticise the Scottish government on ferries, education, anything I feel they could do better on. But you are just a constant rash over anything snp but not ever anything UK government or Tories. Try being balanced

This obviously riles you.

Believe it or not I regard myself as pretty balanced on here when it comes to remaining polite and respecting other opinions. I just happen to loathe the SNP and what they stand for. Doesn't mean I think the UK government is above criticism, far from it. It seems extraordinary that they look like soldiering on with Boris Johnson until the next election - although even more extraordinary is the fact Labour do not as yet appear to be sure of beating him.

There are what, a dozen or so regular posters on here (a sub-forum of a Hibs fans messageboard)? It's hardly a platform for setting the world to rights and for me it's mostly just a chance to sound off on issues which annoy me (and a few which don't). Whether or not I balance what annoys me about the SNP with what annoys me about the Tories doesn't seem that big a deal.

[weecounty hibby]

This obviously riles you.

Believe it or not I regard myself as pretty balanced on here when it comes to remaining polite and respecting other opinions. I just happen to loathe the SNP and what they stand for. Doesn't mean I think the UK government is above criticism, far from it. It seems extraordinary that they look like soldiering on with Boris Johnson until the next election - although even more extraordinary is the fact Labour do not as yet appear to be sure of beating him.

There are what, a dozen or so regular posters on here (a sub-forum of a Hibs fans messageboard)? It's hardly a platform for setting the world to rights and for me it's mostly just a chance to sound off on issues which annoy me (and a few which don't). Whether or not I balance what annoys me about the SNP with what annoys me about the Tories doesn't seem that big a deal.
At least you admit that your postings are derived from a laothing of the SNP. Best ignored then as someone who will never be balanced no matter how much you try to say you are. As I say 100% hypocrite

[Moulin Yarns]

'Scotland is a racist country'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61455683


https://www.thenational.scot/news/20127236.sheku-bayoh-police-scotland-accused-racism-incompetence/


Or maybe just police Scotland


Meanwhile.... https://www.thenational.scot/news/20139746.english-nationalism-issue-not-inclusive-approach-yessers-scotland-expert-says/

[Stairway 2 7]

At least you admit that your postings are derived from a laothing of the SNP. Best ignored then as someone who will never be balanced no matter how much you try to say you are. As I say 100% hypocrite

You need to calm down chief. Hardly hypocritical. Each sides are guilty of posting swayed to one side. Most of our posting is from a loathing of the tories. The harp part is trying to be as objective as possible

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20127236.sheku-bayoh-police-scotland-accused-racism-incompetence/


Or maybe just police Scotland


Meanwhile.... https://www.thenational.scot/news/20139746.english-nationalism-issue-not-inclusive-approach-yessers-scotland-expert-says/

Scotland obviously has racism problems like most nations, can be anti English sometimes unfortunately. I've found no matter if its US, English ,Scottish or Irish, flag ****gers are generally mental.

The more flags on their social media the worse. Good guys and ********s in every nation.

[weecounty hibby]

You need to calm down chief. Hardly hypocritical. Each sides are guilty of posting swayed to one side. Most of our posting is from a loathing of the tories. The harp part is trying to be as objective as possible

Perfectly calm. Chief! He is hypocritical, there is no balance at all from any of his posts. I am happy to say that the ferries have been badly handled, education is not where it should be etc. But he's here there and everywhere in his many guises has never once criticised the Tories or UK gov as far as I can see, so yes, hypocritical.

[Stairway 2 7]

Perfectly calm. Chief! He is hypocritical, there is no balance at all from any of his posts. I am happy to say that the ferries have been badly handled, education is not where it should be etc. But he's here there and everywhere in his many guises has never once criticised the Tories or UK gov as far as I can see, so yes, hypocritical.

Well 90% on here must be hypocritical too, because we're mostly all biased. It would be an awful echo chamber if everyone agreed.

[Just Alf]

Well 90% on here must be hypocritical too, because we're mostly all biased. It would be an awful echo chamber if everyone agreed.I agree, needs all of us on all sides to make this place an enjoyable visit :agree:


What might be irritating them though is that you get the occasional 'Nicola's cheer leader ' type comment stating that no-one can admit she does anything wrong despite the evidence clearly showing that's not the case, in fact it's actually on the Tories thread you'll very rarely, if ever, find anything negative from a Tory leaning poster.

[greenginger]

At least you admit that your postings are derived from a laothing of the SNP. Best ignored then as someone who will never be balanced no matter how much you try to say you are. As I say 100% hypocrite


Do you not loath the Tories ? If you do is in not reasonable to assume your posts are unbalanced and you are a hypocrite too ? :wink:

[Kato]

Do you not loath the Tories ? If you do is in not reasonable to assume your posts are unbalanced and you are a hypocrite too ? :wink:When discussing politics is it not better to be a bit cold hearted?

I don't like any party and find most good politicians a bit boring, which is as it should be.

When it comes to loathing personalities Thatcher is as far as it goes for me. Deliberately set about destroying whole communities in every city of the country when there was no need and took pleasure doing so. A real psychopath.

The rest aren't worth hating or loathing. Disgusted by their policies and beliefs sure but getting full of hatred for swathes of people or people just because they are in a particular party is bad for your own health.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

When discussing politics is it not better to be a bit cold hearted?

I don't like any party and find most good politicians a bit boring, which is as it should be.

When it comes to loathing personalities Thatcher is as far as it goes for me. Deliberately set about destroying whole communities in every city of the country when there was no need and took pleasure doing so. A real psychopath.

The rest aren't worth hating or loathing. Disgusted by their policies and beliefs sure but getting full of hatred for swathes of people or people just because they are in a particular party is bad for your own health.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Agree with all that. Hate Thatcher and much more hate isn't good for you, but I'm verging on loathing a few of the current tory cabinet.

Probably easier for me to be critical because I don't support the snp, although vote for them as a means for independence. Although I'm biased towards hibs mind, however that has been stretched this season

[He's here!]

How can you plead guilty get a custodial sentence and then just change your mind? I assume that's allowed but sounds bizarre.

Explanation for the two trials provided here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61478216

[greenginger]

What is it with the SNP and keeping information secret.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-61472258

changing to private financing for the new sick kids hospital and not telling the Lothian Health board who were managing the project caused all sorts of problems .
The two adjoining hospitals could not share the same heating system and were not even allowed to form a doorway to link the buildings are amongst the problems caused.

[ronaldo7]

What is it with the SNP and keeping information secret.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-61472258

changing to private financing for the new sick kids hospital and not telling the Lothian Health board who were managing the project caused all sorts of problems .
The two adjoining hospitals could not share the same heating system and were not even allowed to form a doorway to link the buildings are amongst the problems caused.

We're not telling you.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1526526183348879360

"Nicola Sturgeon says Ukraine strengthens case for independent Scotland in nato"

Guess we're going to be a nuclear power

[Jack]

https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1526526183348879360

"Nicola Sturgeon says Ukraine strengthens case for independent Scotland in nato"

Guess we're going to be a nuclear power

I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

[Since90+2]

I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

Is it not the case that NATO has a first strike policy in the use of Nuclear Weapons and any country signing up to membership is aware of that?

[James310]

Is it not the case that NATO has a first strike policy in the use of Nuclear Weapons and any country signing up to membership is aware of that?

I think so, the SNP also want to sign and ratify the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons, which no other NATO member has done.

Obviously the article below is written from someone who is opposed to Independence but it highlights some oddities in the SNP position.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/4220921/scotland-nato-snp-posturing-fooled-john-ferry-opinion/

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

The point isn't about Scotland having nuclear weapons themselves. This is different its about joining a nuclear alliance.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s official SNP policy that an independent Scotland will join NATO. There won’t be any opposition to that from Labour or the Tories. Should we become independent then it’s an absolute done deal.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s official SNP policy that an independent Scotland will join NATO. There won’t be any opposition to that from Labour or the Tories. Should we become independent then it’s an absolute done deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As I said on another thread, no bad thing. Wee Scotland will be a member of the world most powerful military alliance.

[Jack]

The point isn't about Scotland having nuclear weapons themselves. This is different its about joining a nuclear alliance.

That seemed to be exactly the point you were making in the post I quoted.

[Stairway 2 7]

That seemed to be exactly the point you were making in the post I quoted.

We will be a part of nato a nuclear power and have to agree to their use if needed. There's plenty of nato nations without weapons themselves that's pretty obvious.

Being anti nuke but joining nato is counter intuitive though, snp won't be going forward though I'd doubt anyway

[Aldo]

We will be a part of nato a nuclear power and have to agree to their use if needed. There's plenty of nato nations without weapons themselves that's pretty obvious.

Being anti nuke but joining nato is counter intuitive though, snp won't be going forward though I'd doubt anyway

That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


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[ronaldo7]

That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where do you get these numbers from?

[Aldo]

Where do you get these numbers from?

Sorry that should have been 10000. Sausage fingers [emoji85]

Should read before I post!


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[ronaldo7]

Sorry that should have been 10000. Sausage fingers [emoji85]

Should read before I post!


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:greengrin

It's not even that high according to questions asked of James Heappey from Deirdre Brock.

This report direct from Mr Heappey says it's 6,000(which includes RN personnel), some of which would stay in place in an Independent Scotland. :aok:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-figures-reveal-faslane-directly-employs-over-6000-people/

Some of them don't even pay tax here.

[Just Alf]

That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm sure I read that if the SNP were in government in an iScotland, Faslane was intended to be the base of the Scottish fleet.

Which would, in theory, be 8 - 10% of the current UK Navy.... so a tug boat :greengrin.... seriously though, it seemed the intention as well was to use 'some' of the money not spent on Trident to obtain/build more surface vessels in addition to patrol the North sea etc. At the time the employment level was estimated to reduce then rise back to a similar level but the really high% of seasonal/fixed term contract workers would be drastically reduced in favour of more permanent roles instead.

Lot of water under the bridge since I read that.... and .. well.... ships/boats seem to have been a problem for the SNP recently!

[Ozyhibby]

I'm sure I read that if the SNP were in government in an iScotland, Faslane was intended to be the base of the Scottish fleet.

Which would, in theory, be 8 - 10% of the current UK Navy.... so a tug boat :greengrin.... seriously though, it seemed the intention as well was to use 'some' of the money not spent on Trident to obtain/build more surface vessels in addition to patrol the North sea etc. At the time the employment level was estimated to reduce then rise back to a similar level but the really high% of seasonal/fixed term contract workers would be drastically reduced in favour of more permanent roles instead.

Lot of water under the bridge since I read that.... and .. well.... ships/boats seem to have been a problem for the SNP recently!

I would think on becoming independent that keeping the sub base in Scotland will be accepted as a price worth paying. Leasing it to the rUK and possibly the US would be lucrative for the new state and would ensure that we become a crucial member of NATO (how could we not given our geography).
The small military we have would likely be focussed on Naval power anyway.


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[James310]

:greengrin

It's not even that high according to questions asked of James Heappey from Deirdre Brock.

This report direct from Mr Heappey says it's 6,000(which includes RN personnel), some of which would stay in place in an Independent Scotland. :aok:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-figures-reveal-faslane-directly-employs-over-6000-people/

Some of them don't even pay tax here.

That's direct employment, those jobs and people will support other jobs in the community.

[ronaldo7]

That's direct employment, those jobs and people will support other jobs in the community.

Just as they will in an Independent Scotland. See Alf's post above.

[Just Alf]

I would think on becoming independent that keeping the sub base in Scotland will be accepted as a price worth paying. Leasing it to the rUK and possibly the US would be lucrative for the new state and would ensure that we become a crucial member of NATO (how could we not given our geography).
The small military we have would likely be focussed on Naval power anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think that's how it would pan out as well, which then begs the question as to where the new base for the Scottish fleet would be located... a beefed up Rosyth?

[The_Exile]

I sincerely doubt the SNP would be anywhere near power in an independent Scotland anyway so it's all moot really as different parties will have their own ideas on what happens with Faslane or NATO etc. I reckon like me, a large number of folk will be lending them their vote for the independence mandate and then after that's achieved we will all likely vote for other parties.

This is all on the condition that the under 40's begin to find their voice and the energy to bother going to a voting booth by then of course. One can but hope I suppose!

[Ozyhibby]

I sincerely doubt the SNP would be anywhere near power in an independent Scotland anyway so it's all moot really as different parties will have their own ideas on what happens with Faslane or NATO etc. I reckon like me, a large number of folk will be lending them their vote for the independence mandate and then after that's achieved we will all likely vote for other parties.

This is all on the condition that the under 40's begin to find their voice and the energy to bother going to a voting booth by then of course. One can but hope I suppose!

Not to mention removing it would take 25+ years. Gives us plenty time to weigh up our options.


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[Jack]

I just wonder what benefit to the economy local and national Faslane actually contributes?

It's a large naval base miles from anywhere. No matter how many thousands people are on the base much of what they need will be on the base; shops, supermarkets, pubs etc. It's not as if they can nip off site in the same way as Portsmouth or Plymouth.

Most of these people will have no emotional investment in the area. I would imagine the RN personnel and families will see it as a punishment rather than somewhere they'll eventually put down roots. Most of the others working there will be contractors from all over the UK who will go wherever the next best contract is.

It's not as if they build the submarines or missiles there. There's no big supporting industries round about that would be decimated if Faslane closed.

So aye, there's plenty spent on base, both in terms of people and equipment, but precious little makes it out the gate.

[James310]

I just wonder what benefit to the economy local and national Faslane actually contributes?

It's a large naval base miles from anywhere. No matter how many thousands people are on the base much of what they need will be on the base; shops, supermarkets, pubs etc. It's not as if they can nip off site in the same way as Portsmouth or Plymouth.

Most of these people will have no emotional investment in the area. I would imagine the RN personnel and families will see it as a punishment rather than somewhere they'll eventually put down roots. Most of the others working there will be contractors from all over the UK who will go wherever the next best contract is.

It's not as if they build the submarines or missiles there. There's no big supporting industries round about that would be decimated if Faslane closed.

So aye, there's plenty spent on base, both in terms of people and equipment, but precious little makes it out the gate.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact-check-many-jobs-depend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

[Jack]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact-check-many-jobs-depend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

I understand there's lots of people involved and the investment probably runs into the billions. But ...

Even just looking at Google Earth Faslane is a secure facility, fenced off from the local community - not really a surprise. The nearest town in Helensburgh, just over 5 miles away, has a population of 15,000. There are probably some work at Faslane but I doubt it's the biggest employer in the area for those not on the base, if you know what I mean.

As I said previously I just can't see Faslane being such a big deal for the local community never mind making a financial difference anywhere further afield.

[ronaldo7]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact-check-many-jobs-depend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

2014 we were promised an increase to 12,500 service personnel in Scotland. Fast forward to 2022 we now have under 10,000.

West Dunbartonshire MP, Martin Docherty-Hughes.

https://twitter.com/MartinJDocherty/status/1526942857243795457

[James310]

2014 we were promised an increase to 12,500 service personnel in Scotland. Fast forward to 2022 we now have under 10,000.

West Dunbartonshire MP, Martin Docherty-Hughes.

https://twitter.com/MartinJDocherty/status/1526942857243795457

All governments will promise jobs that ultimately they won't deliver. I think John Swinney told us a while back the offshore wind industry would create about 28,000 jobs. The actual figure was about 1,700.

[speedy_gonzales]

I just wonder what benefit to the economy local and national Faslane actually contributes?



My mates son got a job with Babcock when he came out of uni, he works more or less full time out at Faslane (so much so that he had to move to Glasgow as the commute, even during lockdown, was too much for him).
He's not alone, Babcock have a big presence there, just as they do at Rosyth.
Plenty skilled employees, living "locally", paying taxes etc....

[Just Alf]

My mates son got a job with Babcock when he came out of uni, he works more or less full time out at Faslane (so much so that he had to move to Glasgow as the commute, even during lockdown, was too much for him).
He's not alone, Babcock have a big presence there, just as they do at Rosyth.
Plenty skilled employees, living "locally", paying taxes etc....A property company I'm familiar with makes a significant amount of revenue from renting flats/houses to the likes of Babcock and the RN..... I'm surprised how many are located in Glasgow itself, folks must be happy about the commute.

[greenginger]

SNP nationalisation of Scotrail.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782

[Moulin Yarns]

SNP nationalisation of Scotrail.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782

Not sure what the fuss is about, I have never been able to have a night out in Perth, even at weekends the last train is before 9pm


Not to mention the dispute has been going on for months.

[SHODAN]

Not sure what the fuss is about, I have never been able to have a night out in Perth, even at weekends the last train is before 9pm


Not to mention the dispute has been going on for months.

Wait, you mean the trains DON'T WORK?! And this has been going on for LONGER than JUST NOW?!

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure what the fuss is about, I have never been able to have a night out in Perth, even at weekends the last train is before 9pm


Not to mention the dispute has been going on for months.

First point is wrong because there is obviously alot to fuss about with thousands effected. Second point is correct though as this is an old problem and not to do with the nationalisation

[greenginger]

First point is wrong because there is obviously alot to fuss about with thousands effected. Second point is correct though as this is an old problem and not to do with the nationalisation

Yes, but the nationalisation solution to the problem is just cut services.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes, but the nationalisation solution to the problem is just cut services.

No sure what else you do with limited staff. Needs resolved pronto though

[Moulin Yarns]

no sure what else you do with limited staff unwilling to work when required. Needs resolved pronto though

ftfy 😉

[He's here!]

Fewer than a third of those eligible sign up for Scottish government's flagship free bus travel scheme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61492386

My recollection of this last year was being told to hold off on applying for my kids until Covid restrictions had eased,
at which time further communications would be issued. Heard nothing since tho.

[Ozyhibby]

Fewer than a third of those eligible sign up for Scottish government's flagship free bus travel scheme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61492386

My recollection of this last year was being told to hold off on applying for my kids until Covid restrictions had eased,
at which time further communications would be issued. Heard nothing since tho.

Both my kids have this and it’s a great idea. Really easy to apply. I also know that my nieces and nephews don’t have theirs yet because their parents have got round to it yet.
I’m not sure it’s much of a news story though?
I live on Corstorphine and every day you would see hundreds of kids walking down at lunchtime from St. Augustine’s and Forrester to the McDonalds. Now they all get the bus because it’s free. Not sure that was the original intention but youngsters are using it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Santa Cruz]

Fewer than a third of those eligible sign up for Scottish government's flagship free bus travel scheme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61492386

My recollection of this last year was being told to hold off on applying for my kids until Covid restrictions had eased,
at which time further communications would be issued. Heard nothing since tho.

We've got ours now. It took 3 attempts with various I.D docs rejected and new ones submitted. It then took a phone call to find out where it was, they had posted it to an address we stayed at several years ago. Turns out they use two systems and the address details come from the Young Scot system. The call handler was really good at identifying the problem and remedied it quickly, got the NEC within days.

[CropleyWasGod]

Both my kids have this and it’s a great idea. Really easy to apply. I also know that my nieces and nephews don’t have theirs yet because their parents have got round to it yet.
I’m not sure it’s much of a news story though?
I live on Corstorphine and every day you would see hundreds of kids walking down at lunchtime from St. Augustine’s and Forrester to the McDonalds. Now they all get the bus because it’s free. Not sure that was the original intention but youngsters are using it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's your headline right there. SNP causing obesity in our kids.

[Aldo]

I understand there's lots of people involved and the investment probably runs into the billions. But ...

Even just looking at Google Earth Faslane is a secure facility, fenced off from the local community - not really a surprise. The nearest town in Helensburgh, just over 5 miles away, has a population of 15,000. There are probably some work at Faslane but I doubt it's the biggest employer in the area for those not on the base, if you know what I mean.

As I said previously I just can't see Faslane being such a big deal for the local community never mind making a financial difference anywhere further afield.

I was a Submariner based at Faslane in the early to mid 90’s.

There is a large married quarters in Helensburgh and along with those who live on the base will without a doubt head into Helensburgh to socialise, shop etc.

There will also be a large influx of sub contracted workers who more than likely board in Helensburgh too.

Whilst I get your point to lose or close Faslane would caused issues for local businesses from Shops, hospitality and other areas. It would have quite a large impact on the local community

How do you replace paying customers in bars, shops and takeaways.

If you didn’t realise I’m for the base and Trident!


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[JeMeSouviens]

I was a Submariner based at Faslane in the early to mid 90’s.

There is a large married quarters in Helensburgh and along with those who live on the base will without a doubt head into Helensburgh to socialise, shop etc.

There will also be a large influx of sub contracted workers who more than likely board in Helensburgh too.

Whilst I get your point to lose or close Faslane would caused issues for local businesses from Shops, hospitality and other areas. It would have quite a large impact on the local community

How do you replace paying customers in bars, shops and takeaways.

If you didn’t realise I’m for the base and Trident!


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It definitely works as a local campaigning issue. It's kept Jackie Baillie as one of the very few Lab MSPs that can win a constituency seat.

That said, it's a totally bonkers argument that we should spend £200Bn to save jobs around Helensburgh, even it were tens of thousands.

[Aldo]

It definitely works as a local campaigning issue. It's kept Jackie Baillie as one of the very few Lab MSPs that can win a constituency seat.

That said, it's a totally bonkers argument that we should spend £200Bn to save jobs around Helensburgh, even it were tens of thousands.

Totally understand that however I cannot see Faslane closing anytime soon. I think others have mentioned that it will be written somewhere that it would remain regardless of Independence!


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[Stairway 2 7]

Faslane won't be going for decades. If Scotland goes independent there will be a few parliaments before it has to be decided.

As for the bus pass, my daughter had a nightmare actually getting it. Multiple emails scans of passport ect, but has now so all is well

[Bristolhibby]

Totally understand that however I cannot see Faslane closing anytime soon. I think others have mentioned that it will be written somewhere that it would remain regardless of Independence!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree, it’s a brilliant bargaining tool and will support our local economy. Enough time for the Scottish Defence Force to set up and move in.

Same with Rosyth, there are no deep water maintenance docks in England that you can sail a Queen Elizabeth Class carrier in. That work will continue and be part of the negotiation process.

J

[Aldo]

Agree, it’s a brilliant bargaining tool and will support our local economy. Enough time for the Scottish Defence Force to set up and move in.

Same with Rosyth, there are no deep water maintenance docks in England that you can sail a Queen Elizabeth Class carrier in. That work will continue and be part of the negotiation process.

J

Thing is they didn’t millions dredging and setting up sections of the Forth for the Trident refit programme. Perfect location etc however way back when the then Gov decided it was going to Devonport which was never fit for purpose. Anything is possible and nothing is guaranteed with Boris and Co in charge


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[He's here!]

Both my kids have this and it’s a great idea. Really easy to apply. I also know that my nieces and nephews don’t have theirs yet because their parents have got round to it yet.
I’m not sure it’s much of a news story though?
I live on Corstorphine and every day you would see hundreds of kids walking down at lunchtime from St. Augustine’s and Forrester to the McDonalds. Now they all get the bus because it’s free. Not sure that was the original intention but youngsters are using it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Arguably better continuing to walk so they at least get some exercise as they make their way to the daily delights of McDonalds :wink:

Rollout/ease of application appears to vary across different local authorities. And I guess for any government announcing headline-making policies the reality of actually implementing them can be a great deal more challenging than anticipated - as we have seen with the abandonment of plans to eliminate the attainment gap in schools by 2026 (a wholly unrealistic ambition in the first place and a policy whose implementation has been badly flawed. Problem is, it's the one which Sturgeon has staked her reputation on):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-abandons-plan-to-eliminate-poverty-related-attainment-gap-in-schools-kjvsfngg5

[Crunchie]

Both my kids have this and it’s a great idea. Really easy to apply. I also know that my nieces and nephews don’t have theirs yet because their parents have got round to it yet.
I’m not sure it’s much of a news story though?
I live on Corstorphine and every day you would see hundreds of kids walking down at lunchtime from St. Augustine’s and Forrester to the McDonalds. Now they all get the bus because it’s free. Not sure that was the original intention but youngsters are using it.

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Just what the country needs eh, hundreds of kids bussing it to McDonald's instead of walking.

[ronaldo7]

Just what the country needs eh, hundreds of kids bussing it to McDonald's instead of walking.

I've ensured all 17 of my football team have them, so they can get to training on time instead of using mum and dad's car. Just what the country needs. 😆

[Jack]

LRT could always change their timetable so that there no suitable busses after the dinner bell goes.

Just as they do for Hibs supporters after the game. There's a bus just before the final whistle then nothing for half an hour.

[Crunchie]

I've ensured all 17 of my football team have them, so they can get to training on time instead of using mum and dad's car. Just what the country needs. 😆
None of our parents had cars back in the day and we all made training on time, we were all usually early in fact playing footy before the adults arrived.

[ronaldo7]

None of our parents had cars back in the day and we all made training on time, we were all usually early in fact playing footy before the adults arrived.

Our boys come from far afield. Times move on, just like Scotland. ✌

[James310]

Nicola Sturgeon becomes Scotland's longest serving FM tomorrow, what's her greatest achievement been?

[lapsedhibee]

Nicola Sturgeon becomes Scotland's longest serving FM tomorrow, what's her greatest achievement been?

Making so many thinking English people wish that they lived in Scotland.

[James310]

Making so many thinking English people wish that they lived in Scotland.

I was thinking more about what changes she has made for the people of Scotland, the ones she has responsibility for.

As an aside nothing stopping as many English as wanted moving to Scotland today. Might not be the case in the future.

[Santa Cruz]

I was thinking more about what changes she has made for the people of Scotland, the ones she has responsibility for.

As an aside nothing stopping as many English as wanted moving to Scotland today. Might not be the case in the future.

I'd go free baby boxes. Never personally benefitted from it myself, good initiative all the same.

[lapsedhibee]

I was thinking more about what changes she has made for the people of Scotland, the ones she has responsibility for.

As an aside nothing stopping as many English as wanted moving to Scotland today. Might not be the case in the future.
Pretty sure immigrants are welcome in Scotland for a good while yet.

[James310]

I'd go free baby boxes. Never personally benefitted from it myself, good initiative all the same.

Very popular yes, who doesn't like "free" stuff though. Not sure it's a massive achievement though, but very popular.

[Stairway 2 7]

I got baby box. Its nice to know all children have the essentials needed. Was proud to put my wee one in the little outfits.

[Ozyhibby]

Crime being 60% lower in Scotland than England & Wales?


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[Ozyhibby]

Free University tuition?


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[Smartie]

Very popular yes, who doesn't like "free" stuff though. Not sure it's a massive achievement though, but very popular.

Difficult to measure, really.

When we got ours we were grateful for it and made good use of it but it was stuff we could and should have bought anyway - for us it was a bit more of a token "nice to get free stuff" thing.

Sadly there are still huge numbers of people in Scotland who live in poverty and you could imagine it being a godsend to those less fortunate. It's hard to imagine that so many people will likely attempt to get by without some very basics.

So I'd go along with it being a great thing.

Given the type of generosity of spirit generally shown by the governments chosen for us by our pals South of the border towards the less fortunate, it does stand out.

[James310]

Crime being 60% lower in Scotland than England & Wales?


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What was it when she became FM and what is it now is probably the best check of that stat, but yes impressive of that's the numbers.

[Stairway 2 7]

Free University tuition?


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Pre Sturgeon. Glasgow has uks highest violent crime rate, but Scotland obviously has lots of rural are. London will make up a huge number of England's numbers.

[Stairway 2 7]

Violent crime was rising every year for 5 years in Scotland before the pandemic hit. But austerity brings crime, so could be worldwide rise. Like all crime statistics they can be changed and there is conflicting results. Not prosecuting for cannabis possession helped lower crime

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49809729.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

An achievement is keeping a party with a large majority popular, which isn't easy. I guess she should be judged on how close Scotland is to independence mainly, as that is her parties main aim

[Ozyhibby]

Pre Sturgeon. Glasgow has uks highest violent crime rate, but Scotland obviously has lots of rural are. London will make up a huge number of England's numbers.

Does Glasgow have the UK’s highest violent crime rate? Is there a source for that?


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[James310]

An achievement is keeping a party with a large majority popular, which isn't easy. I guess she should be judged on how close Scotland is to independence mainly, as that is her parties main aim

They are the party of Independence so as many have said on here they only vote for them because of that. As for her being judged on progress towards Independence then it must be a seen as a failure.

[Ozyhibby]

They are the party of Independence so as many have said on here they only vote for them because of that. As for her being judged on progress towards Independence then it must be a seen as a failure.

Support for Indy used to hover about 25%, now it’s hovers about 50%. You think that’s failure?


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[grunt]

Nicola Sturgeon becomes Scotland's longest serving FM tomorrow, what's her greatest achievement been?
While we're all thinking about that, and giving a range of replies, can you please let us know what Johnson's greatest achievement has been?

[James310]

While we're all thinking about that, and giving a range of replies, can you please let us know what Johnson's greatest achievement has been?

Stick it on the Tory thread and off you go.

[James310]

Support for Indy used to hover about 25%, now it’s hovers about 50%. You think that’s failure?


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No, but when Nicola Sturgeon took over support was about 45%, it's now at about 45%.

I am talking about the period she has been FM.

[Ozyhibby]

No, but when Nicola Sturgeon took over support was about 45%, it's now at about 45%.

I would say it’s about 49% but I don’t suppose that matters just now as no campaign is underway.


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[Ozyhibby]

£20 child payment surely counts as an achievement? I’m sure it’s much needed in a lot of households.


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[ronaldo7]

Social security Scotland. Treating those with difficulties, with dignity and respect. Uplifting benefit payments more than any other uk country, and introducing new benefits, not found anywhere else in the UK. Fairness, and respect are not to be found on the tory thread. I suppose that's why all the Tories are on here. 🙈

[James310]

I would say it’s about 49% but I don’t suppose that matters just now as no campaign is underway.


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I think the poll of polls shows it lower, so basically not moved it at all after 8 years. Considering that's her ultimate aim it has to be seen as a failure.

[grunt]

Stick it on the Tory thread and off you go.
I look forward to reading your replies.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?351465-Tories-are-still-lying-*******s&p=6972781&viewfull=1#post6972781

[James310]

£20 child payment surely counts as an achievement? I’m sure it’s much needed in a lot of households.


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That was the Smith Commission that delivered that, yes she enacted the policy but you could argue it's a success of devolution. Allowing Scotland to make different choices and having the funds to do so.

Education and closing the attainment gap was what she wanted judged on but I think that was harder than she probably thought it would be.

[grunt]

I think the poll of polls shows it lower, so basically not moved it at all after 8 years. Considering that's her ultimate aim it has to be seen as a failure.

You don't think that leading a Government for all these years and increasing her party's majority at every election in a system which is intended to reduce the chance for overall majorities is a success?

[James310]

I look forward to reading your replies.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?351465-Tories-are-still-lying-*******s&p=6972781&viewfull=1#post6972781

I just answered it.

[James310]

You don't think that leading a Government for all these years and increasing her party's majority at every election in a system which is intended to reduce the chance for overall majorities is a success?

Yes, that's true. Is that her greatest achievement then? Although Alex Salmond delivered an overall majority didn't he? Maybe not.

[grunt]

I just answered it.I hate it when I agree with you.

[Just Alf]

I hate it when I agree with you.We're all Hibbies so we DO agree on SOME things! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Fair old list already of achievements. And given that the last few elections the SNP has not faced a single party with a single flagship policy apart from stopping a referendum then I think she is very safe in her job for now.


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[James310]

Fair old list already of achievements. And given that the last few elections the SNP has not faced a single party with a single flagship policy apart from stopping a referendum then I think she is very safe in her job for now.


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The opposition have been useless yes, and I am sure she is safe in her job until she decides she wants to quit. But her list of 'achievments' are not exactly overwhelming for 8 years at the top. Dare I suggest Alex Salmond delivered far more. (A referendum for one)

[Bristolhibby]

For anyone going on about ferries check this whopper out.

I remember work ongoing when I used to work in London back in 2013.

This from Sky News

After 20 years of planning, construction and delays, the Elizabeth Line is finally open 🚆

It’s 4 years and 5 months late and billions over budget - but will it be worth it?

[James310]

For anyone going on about ferries check this whopper out.

I remember work ongoing when I used to work in London back in 2013.

This from Sky News

After 20 years of planning, construction and delays, the Elizabeth Line is finally open 🚆

It’s 4 years and 5 months late and billions over budget - but will it be worth it?

You have to admit constructing a new 100KM railway line that runs through central London is a bit more tricky than building two boats?

[Ozyhibby]

You have to admit constructing a new 100KM railway line that runs through central London is a bit more tricky than building two boats?

Opened the borders railway. Not sure how many £billions over budget it was.


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[James310]

Opened the borders railway. Not sure how many £billions over budget it was.


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That's actually a good achievement and on time and on budget, but work started in 2012 and it was completed in 2015 so while Nicola Sturgeon was FM for 12 months when it opened it's not really one of her achievements as FM.

[He's here!]

Nicola Sturgeon becomes Scotland's longest serving FM tomorrow, what's her greatest achievement been?

Nothing 'great' springs to mind.

He might be reduced to carping from the sidelines these days but Salmond makes some valid points about her record here:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/22/nicola-sturgeon-using-scottish-independence-political-shield/

She really just needs to keep her fingers crossed that Boris Johnson remains PM and her own lacklustre record will remain largely unchallenged at the ballot box.

In saying that I note that support for independence has actually reduced since he became PM so she's in a bit of a limbo situation.

[grunt]

Take your pick


1. Baby Box – Giving every baby born in Scotland the best start in life by providing families with a Baby Box, filled with essential items needed in the first six months of a child’s life.2. Childcare – All eligible children now benefit from at least 1,140 hours of funded early learning and childcare, saving families around £4,500 per child per year.
3. Free Tuition – Students in England face tuition fees up to £27,750 – Scottish students receive university tuition for free, and always will under the SNP.
4. Period Poverty – Scotland is the first in the world to make sanitary products available to all those who need them, free of charge.
5. Record high health funding – Our latest health and care portfolio spending exceeds £16 billion, with resource funding up by over 60% under the SNP.
6. Free prescriptions – Prescription charges abolished in Scotland – now £9.35 per item south of the border.
7. Free NHS dental care – We have already abolished NHS dental fees for all under-26 year olds, and we will deliver free dental care for everybody by the end of this Parliament.
8. Care For All – Free personal and nursing care extended to everyone who needs it, regardless of age – and we’re now taking steps towards a transformative National Care Service.
9. Free Bus Travel – Over one million Scots now enjoy free bus travel across the country, including over-60s and disabled people – and we’re now expanding it further to all young people under 22.
10. Scottish Child Payment – Our new benefit for families, the only one of its kind in the UK, has been called “game-changing” by anti-poverty campaigners, and will help lift around 30,000 children out of poverty.

[grunt]

a healthier scotland


25,000 more staff in scotland’s nhs, that’s over 20 per cent more under the snp.
record high health funding – 2021/22 health portfolio spending will exceed £16 billion, with resource funding up over £6.4 billion under the snp.
free nhs dental care for all young people under 26 – and expanding to everybody by the end of this parliament.
scotland’s core a&e services are the best performing in the uk.
for over five years, scotland has had the highest number of gps per head of population anywhere in the uk.
we’ve expanded ivf to more families – making access in scotland the fairest and most generous in the uk.
scotland is leading the world on alcohol pricing, being the first country to implement minimum unit pricing.
we’ve protected free tuition for nursing and midwifery students – and their bursary rose to £10,000 in 2020.
parking charges at all nhs-run hospitals scrapped – saving patients and staff over £42 million.
nhs scotland staff continue to be significantly better paid than nhs staff in england – a healthcare assistant at the top of band 3, for example, earns over £2,211 more.

[grunt]

a smarter scotland


scotland provides the best package of support for university students anywhere in the uk – with free tuition; low interest rates for student loan repayments; and a minimum income guarantee of £7,750 for the poorest students.
since 2015/16, we have invested over £576 million in tackling the poverty related attainment gap. In 2021/22, we are investing a further £215 million – which includes over £147 million of pupil equity funding going direct to 97% of head teachers in scotland.
over 167,000 pupils in primaries 1 to 3 now benefit from free school meals, and we’re expanding it to p4 and p5 – saving families around £400 per child per year.
we have provided extra resources to local councils to increase education spending in real terms, and help tackle the attainment gap.
over 950 schools upgraded under the snp, providing well-designed, accessible and inclusive learning environments for pupils.
a record 260,490 students enrolled at our world-class scottish universities in 2019/20.
we’ve introduced a national minimum school clothing grant of £100 to help more families afford school uniform costs.
our £70 million young person’s guarantee provides vital opportunities of employment, training or education for young people.
we’re providing our further education students with record levels of support. £138 million in 2020/21 – up 58% in real terms since 2006/07.
we’re leading the way as the only nation in the uk to offer bursary supporttargeted specifically for care-experienced students.

[grunt]

a wealthier scotland


we have delivered a new progressive income tax system, ensuring the majority of scottish taxpayers pay less than elsewhere in the uk – while strengthening our public services with extra investment, and protecting those on lower incomes.
we’ve slashed or abolished business rates for over 117,000 premises – saving small businesses around £2 billion to date.
in 2015, we became the first government in the uk to become an accredited real living wage employer.
we have maintained funding for living wage scotland to continue promoting the payment of the real living wage in businesses across the country.
in 2019, we published the fair work action plan to drive forward fair work becoming the norm in workplaces across scotland.
scotland is the top destination in the uk, outside london, for foreign direct investment.
we met our target to reduce youth unemployment by 40% in 2017 – four years early.
business research and development spend in scotland increased by 6.4% in 2018 to reach a record £1.36 billion, compared to a uk increase of 3.9%.
we launched a £25 million fund to help businesses enhance their digital capacity.
we’ve set up the green jobs workforce academy, helping to re-skill people and create good, green jobs across scotland.
scotland’s productivity is outperforming the uk as a whole. Since 2007, productivity in scotland has grown 10.3%, compared to growth of 2.9% in the uk.
we have established the scottish national investment bank to invest in future generations and cutting-edge innovation for the common good.

[grunt]

a fairer scotland


we have built a new social security system, with dignity and fairness at its heart, currently administering 11 benefits – 7 of which are new and unique to the uk.
we have delivered over 100,000 affordable homes since 2007, with around 70% of them for social rent.
unlike the uk government, we enshrined ambitious child poverty eradication targets into law, and published our first delivery plan outlining concrete actions – backed by a £50 million tackling child poverty fund.
we are tackling child poverty head-on with the scottish child payment, which helps lift around 30,000 children out of poverty.
our investment in carer’s allowance and the carer’s allowance supplement was around £358 million in 2020/21 – our supplement and extra covid payments provided eligible carers with an extra £690.30 last year, compared to carers south of the border.
the first benefit of its kind in the uk, the young carer grant, started in october 2019, supporting eligible young carers with a payment of £305.10.
we’re delivering the best start grant and best start foods payments, putting £46.9 million in the pockets of lower-income families to help with expenses during a child’s early years.
we’re continuing to fully mitigate the callous tory bedroom tax, protecting over 70,000 scottish households from facing the charge.
we introduced the first gender-balanced cabinet in the uk, one of only a handful of gender parity cabinets around the world.
we have kept scottish water in public hands. Customers pay less for a better service in scotland – saving £46 on average compared to the privatised services south of the border.
we’ve delivered free bus travel to over a million scots across the country, including over-60s and disabled people. We’re now expanding it further to all under-22s, making public transport more accessible than ever.

[Bristolhibby]

You have to admit constructing a new 100KM railway line that runs through central London is a bit more tricky than building two boats?

Point was pretty much any government project coming in on time and on budget is rare.

J

[grunt]

a safer scotland


overall crime is down by 45% since 2008-09 – and police recorded crime is at one of the lowest levels seen since 1974.
despite a decade of uk tory austerity, we have increased the policing budget for 2021/22 by £75 million – putting the police in a sustainable position.
scotland has a higher number of police officers than at any time between 1999 and 2007 – over 1,000 more than march 2007. In england and wales, police numbers have dropped by over 16,000, or 11%, in the same period.
automatic early release has been ended, meaning that long-term prisoners who pose an unacceptable risk to public safety will serve their sentence in full. The re-conviction rate is at its lowest level in 21 years.
since 2008, we committed £110 million from the proceeds of crime to community projects for young people across scotland.
we’ve introduced the world-leading domestic abuse act that makes psychological domestic abuse and controlling behaviour a crime.
since 2012, we have invested record funding of £14.5 million to support anti-sectarian education in schools, prisons, workplaces and communities.
the new scottish fire and rescue service has been created.
we have made the sharing of so-called ‘revenge porn’ a specific criminal offence, carrying a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment.
scotland has the uk’s first national action plan on human rights, showing our ambition to be an example of how to realise human rights and tackle injustice at home and abroad.
we established the delivering equally safe fund with additional funding to tackle violence against women and girls.