SNP are lying b******s as well !

[He's here!]

North Lanarkshire Council leader resigns over sexual harrassment claims:

Council leader quits amid sexual harassment claims - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62322944)

[Just Alf]

North Lanarkshire Council leader resigns over sexual harrassment claims:

Council leader quits amid sexual harassment claims - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62322944)Only resigned as leader as well, still staying on as a Councillor... not a great look as it stands.

[He's here!]

Only resigned as leader as well, still staying on as a Councillor... not a great look as it stands.

I'm guessing that may not be a tenable position for long, but I don't know any more about these allegations than what's reported in that story.

Somebody who clearly has a neck of the hardest brass is Margaret Ferrier, who I can only assume is sitting tight so she can draw her MP's salary for another couple of years:

Margaret Ferrier: MP faces further Covid rule breach accusation - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-62306213)

I'm unclear upon what basis she can possibly deny the charge against her.

[Keith_M]

North Lanarkshire Council leader resigns over sexual harrassment claims:

Council leader quits amid sexual harassment claims - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62322944)


Resigning from the role is probably the right thing to do.

I can only presume that whoever appointed him to this position was unaware of any claims of sexual harassment. If they did know about it, then they must have been pretty naive to think it wouldn't be brought into the public eye at some point.

[Kato]

North Lanarkshire Council leader resigns over sexual harrassment claims:

Council leader quits amid sexual harassment claims - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62322944)What a creep.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Only resigned as leader as well, still staying on as a Councillor... not a great look as it stands.

Have the SNP suspended him? I’m assuming they have.

[James310]

Have the SNP suspended him? I’m assuming they have.

They promoted him, just like Patrick Grady.

Also like Derek McKay the SNPs first instinct was to kill the story.

https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1552294401308762112?t=X41oklwrD2khqXVtY_mQ7A&s=19

"Worth remembering that when @HRwritesnews broke this story on Sunday, the SNP's first response was to threaten her with an IPSO complaint about her reporting"

[Berwickhibby]

It’s starting to appear that the Tartan Tories are behaving like the real Tories with their sexual shenanigans :wink:

[Zambernardi1875]

It’s starting to appear that the Tartan Tories are behaving like the real Tories with their sexual shenanigans :wink:

It’s not even close.

[Berwickhibby]

It’s not even close.

I am sure the victims of their abuse will be reassured about that 🙄

[Zambernardi1875]

I am sure the victims of their abuse will be reassured about that 🙄

That wasn’t the point you made.

[Smartie]

Irrespective of anything the Tories do, the SNP needs to firmly sort out this culture of drunkenly groping one another and then the way they subsequently deal with “the story”.

It’s not reflecting at all well on them and is damaging them.

[Berwickhibby]

That wasn’t the point you made.

So you now tell me about the Point I am making…my point is that some politicians of the SNP are sexual predators as are some of the Tories and the people who suffer are their victims. But you appear to defend the SNP because obviously it’s not as bad as the Tories. Regardless which party they represent they are ****

[Jones28]

Irrespective of anything the Tories do, the SNP needs to firmly sort out this culture of drunkenly groping one another and then the way they subsequently deal with “the story”.

It’s not reflecting at all well on them and is damaging them.

:agree:

Whiter than white or the usual "get your own house in order" arguments are very easy to use for lots of people.

FWIW I think theres a sliding scale of sleaze, but it's not at all helpful when these things come out.

[Hiber-nation]

So you now tell me about the Point I am making…my point is that some politicians of the SNP are sexual predators as are some of the Tories and the people who suffer are their victims. But you appear to defend the SNP because obviously it’s not as bad as the Tories. Regardless which party they represent they are ****

Like all political parties the SNP have handled these incidents really poorly but every time you call them "Tartan Tories" you render your point worthless.

[Berwickhibby]

Like all political parties the SNP have handled these incidents really poorly but every time you call them "Tartan Tories" you render your point worthless.

That’s what the SNP were known as in my youth and I am happy to continue using the same monicker….

[Zambernardi1875]

So you now tell me about the Point I am making…my point is that some politicians of the SNP are sexual predators as are some of the Tories and the people who suffer are their victims. But you appear to defend the SNP because obviously it’s not as bad as the Tories. Regardless which party they represent they are ****

i havent once defended the snp. i find most politicians hypocritical, lying, narcissists.

what i do find funny is unionist/tory voters coming on here slating the snp when the institutions they support are far far worse.

[Berwickhibby]

i havent once defended the snp. i find most politicians hypocritical, lying, narcissists.

what i do find funny is unionist/tory voters coming on here slating the snp when the institutions they support are far far worse.

Never voted Tory in my life

[Hibrandenburg]

So you now tell me about the Point I am making…my point is that some politicians of the SNP are sexual predators as are some of the Tories and the people who suffer are their victims. But you appear to defend the SNP because obviously it’s not as bad as the Tories. Regardless which party they represent they are ****

All groups of people will have sleaze bags, no group is free of sex pests and even the church has them. It's how they're dealt with that's important and the SNP really need to get their house in order.

[Zambernardi1875]

Never voted Tory in my life

Tories never admit to being a Tory 😉

[Hiber-nation]

That’s what the SNP were known as in my youth and I am happy to continue using the same monicker….

Even though it is wildly inaccurate. OK then.....

[Berwickhibby]

Even though it is wildly inaccurate. OK then.....

Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name given

[Ozyhibby]

Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name given

So boring.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

So boring.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Boring in your opinion ….but still a fact

[grunt]

Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name given
You have a habit of calling people names on here and IMO it doesn't help discussion.

In this case you are harking back to events of 40+ years ago - do you honestly believe that the SNP of 2022 follow Conservative policies?

And lastly, did SNP really speed up the onset of the Thatcher era? The SNP wasn't responsible for Labour losing the election in 1979, it was the electorate responding to years of Labour's poor Government. Labour would have had to hold a GE later that year anyway, regardless of the VONC. Do you remember the winter of discontent?

Here's a view https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/the-staggers/2019/03/did-snp-bring-really-down-callaghan-government-and-pave-way-thatcherism

[James310]

In this case you are harking back to events of 40+ years ago - do you honestly believe that the SNP of 2022 follow Conservative policies?


Well.....

https://archive.ph/V4XGe

"The SNP are now just Tartan Tories with a smiling face"

[grunt]

Well.....

https://archive.ph/V4XGe

"The SNP are now just Tartan Tories with a smiling face"Seems to be this week's SNP attack hashtag.

[He's here!]

Boring in your opinion ….but still a fact

Along with the 'once in a generation/lifetime' statements by Salmond and Sturgeon in 2014, it's one of these inconvenient truths that annoy SNP supporters so get dismissed as boring or irrelevant.

[Kato]

Along with the 'once in a generation/lifetime' statements by Salmond and Sturgeon in 2014, it's one of these inconvenient truths that annoy SNP supporters so get dismissed as boring or irrelevant.

What is its relevance today?

Do the SNP want to send people to Rwanda? Make striking illegal? Have they nicked billions of pounds for their pals during a global disaster? Seek a return to the troubles in Ireland?

What makes today's SNP like the Torys of today?


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[weecounty hibby]

Along with the 'once in a generation/lifetime' statements by Salmond and Sturgeon in 2014, it's one of these inconvenient truths that annoy SNP supporters so get dismissed as boring or irrelevant.
Aw for **** sake no again with the once in a generation. Look up rhetoric in the dictionary. Then look up the Edinburgh agreement. Then try to find any mention of once in a generation in there. A document signed by ALL parties. Johnson once said he’d die in a ditch, did you believe he would follow through in that as well. Rhetoric! Pure and simple. And folk using that as their defence for not having another referendum are clutching at straws and have already lost the argument
And also I don’t believe even Jim Callaghan blamed the SNP for that VONC and lost election.

[Berwickhibby]

Aw for **** sake no again with the once in a generation. Look up rhetoric in the dictionary. Then look up the Edinburgh agreement. Then try to find any mention of once in a generation in there. A document signed by ALL parties. Johnson once said he’d die in a ditch, did you believe he would follow through in that as well. Rhetoric! Pure and simple. And folk using that as their defence for not having another referendum are clutching at straws and have already lost the argument
And also I don’t believe even Jim Callaghan blamed the SNP for that VONC and lost election.

Trouble with Johnson he never keeps his word…(Pity) And yes I heard Jim Callaghan blame the SNP and Labour MPs who crossed the chamber for his downfall.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fe6d23452c7f19629a184e422db59bce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fbc5eb0f35498dcea775616e3c4f7c4d.jpg

No reply from Cole-Hamilton. Unionists determination to undermine anything positive that Scotland does is breathtaking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[weecounty hibby]

Trouble with Johnson he never keeps his word…(Pity) And yes I heard Jim Callaghan blame the SNP and Labour MPs who crossed the chamber for his downfall.
My recollection of Sunny Jim’s comments about it was that blamed his own MPs party way more than he blamed the SNP. The SNP rightly felt shafted by Labour regarding the referendum and there was I way they would support them. Sadly Labour seem to have a long memory over this but only remember the perceived slight by SNP and not what triggered it. It’s a pity that they refuse to work with SNP anywhere but seem happy to work with Tories across Scotland. Even going as far as suspending councillors who refused to vote for stories to gain positions of power. Tartan Tories from 40 years ago or Red Tories in the here and now

[Berwickhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fe6d23452c7f19629a184e422db59bce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fbc5eb0f35498dcea775616e3c4f7c4d.jpg

No reply from Cole-Hamilton. Unionists determination to undermine anything positive that Scotland does is breathtaking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Err naw Cole-Hamilton is trying to undermine the positive work being carried out, as a unionist, I have been very impressed with the Scottish Government’s work with Ukrainian refugees.

[lapsedhibee]

My recollection of Sunny Jim’s comments about it was that blamed his own MPs party way more than he blamed the SNP. The SNP rightly felt shafted by Labour regarding the referendum and there was I way they would support them. Sadly Labour seem to have a long memory over this but only remember the perceived slight by SNP and not what triggered it. It’s a pity that they refuse to work with SNP anywhere but seem happy to work with Tories across Scotland. Even going as far as suspending councillors who refused to vote for stories to gain positions of power. Tartan Tories from 40 years ago or Red Tories in the here and now

Diehard Tory voters prefer the faraway past to the here and now. Warm village green beer and all that.

[weecounty hibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fe6d23452c7f19629a184e422db59bce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fbc5eb0f35498dcea775616e3c4f7c4d.jpg

No reply from Cole-Hamilton. Unionists determination to undermine anything positive that Scotland does is breathtaking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cole Hamilton is a particularly odious creature. He is also a liar. There is no way he is going to name any charities he spoke to because he didn’t actually speak to any. The aid given to Ukrainian citizens in Scotland has been amazing for SG down to councils and local charities. Anyone trying to belittle that deserves a slap

[ronaldo7]

I am sure the victims of their abuse will be reassured about that 🙄

Not if they'd been assaulted by the police though.

Since 2010, 750 people have been sexually assaulted by a met police officer, and only 83 officers charged, according to a report in inews.

It's seems prevalent in people in positions of power, but I'd thought those who were meant to protect us would have more restraint.

It seems not.

[James310]

Cole Hamilton is a particularly odious creature. He is also a liar. There is no way he is going to name any charities he spoke to because he didn’t actually speak to any. The aid given to Ukrainian citizens in Scotland has been amazing for SG down to councils and local charities. Anyone trying to belittle that deserves a slap

Isn't the point of the story that great work was and has been done but the scheme has now been paused because the SG can't deliver what it promised. It's now putting up nearly 2,000 refugees in a ferry in Leith I believe, but when asked how that would effect the local services such as schools or Doctors etc they had no answer. Praise when it's due but also take the criticism as well when it's due.

[James310]

Not if they'd been assaulted by the police though.

Since 2010, 750 people have been sexually assaulted by a met police officer, and only 83 officers charged, according to a report in inews.

It's seems prevalent in people in positions of power, but I'd thought those who were meant to protect us would have more restraint.

It seems not.

What's that got to do with the SNP?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Cole Hamilton is a particularly odious creature. He is also a liar. There is no way he is going to name any charities he spoke to because he didn’t actually speak to any. The aid given to Ukrainian citizens in Scotland has been amazing for SG down to councils and local charities. Anyone trying to belittle that deserves a slap


He may actually be on to something here.

My wife and I decided to sign up for the scheme from the beginning it was introduced.
Went through all the stages, including a visit from West Lothian Environmental Health to check that the property was ok,boiler safety check, electrical checks etc.
The last step a few weeks ago was a Disclosure Scotland check, which was also fine.
The use of a double bedroom and bathroom was being offered as we have an ensuite of our room.

Heard nothing until yesterday, received an email saying that our property wasn't suitable, no explanation as to why.
It's a 3 bedroom detached house with front and back garden.

I'm at a loss as to why.
Speaking with family and friends and it was suggested that it may be a simple clerical error.

We were really keen to help someone.
I don't know what my next move should be as we've went this far and don't want to give it up.

[Berwickhibby]

What's that got to do with the SNP?

As expected a deflection post….look at them…they are worse

[James310]

He may actually be on to something here.

My wife and I decided to sign up for the scheme from the beginning it was introduced.
Went through all the stages, including a visit from West Lothian Environmental Health to check that the property was ok,boiler safety check, electrical checks etc.
The last step a few weeks ago was a Disclosure Scotland check, which was also fine.
The use of a double bedroom and bathroom was being offered as we have an ensuite of our room.

Heard nothing until yesterday, received an email saying that our property wasn't suitable, no explanation as to why.
It's a 3 bedroom detached house with front and back garden.

I'm at a loss as to why.
Speaking with family and friends and it was suggested that it may be a simple clerical error.

We were really keen to help someone.
I don't know what my next move should be as we've went this far and don't want to give it up.

I am sure a family on the ferry in Leith would love to stay with someone like you.

[weecounty hibby]

Isn't the point of the story that great work was and has been done but the scheme has now been paused because the SG can't deliver what it promised. It's now putting up nearly 2,000 refugees in a ferry in Leith I believe, but when asked how that would effect the local services such as schools or Doctors etc they had no answer. Praise when it's due but also take the criticism as well when it's due as well.
No, I believe the story was about Cole Hamilton having another pop at the government. Where was his proposed solution? What has he done to help the situation? He has been asked for evidence that this meeting even took place and he can’t. As I say I think overall the way this has been handled has been excellent. Issues? Of course. Trying to manage an influx of 000s of people must be a logistical nightmare, but I still believe we asa country are doing well. Using made up phrases like bin fire shows how useless he is. When it comes to being a total arse he is even worse that Rennie was.

[weecounty hibby]

He may actually be on to something here.

My wife and I decided to sign up for the scheme from the beginning it was introduced.
Went through all the stages, including a visit from West Lothian Environmental Health to check that the property was ok,boiler safety check, electrical checks etc.
The last step a few weeks ago was a Disclosure Scotland check, which was also fine.
The use of a double bedroom and bathroom was being offered as we have an ensuite of our room.

Heard nothing until yesterday, received an email saying that our property wasn't suitable, no explanation as to why.
It's a 3 bedroom detached house with front and back garden.

I'm at a loss as to why.
Speaking with family and friends and it was suggested that it may be a simple clerical error.

We were really keen to help someone.
I don't know what my next move should be as we've went this far and don't want to give it up.

Please don’t give up. Get back in touch with your local authority. Speak to one of your local councillors if needed. At worst you should get an explanation of what would be required to make you a suitable location for a family

[stoneyburn hibs]

I am sure a family on the ferry in Leith would love to stay with someone like you.

I'd have thought so too.

[Zambernardi1875]

Isn't the point of the story that great work was and has been done but the scheme has now been paused because the SG can't deliver what it promised. It's now putting up nearly 2,000 refugees in a ferry in Leith I believe, but when asked how that would effect the local services such as schools or Doctors etc they had no answer. Praise when it's due but also take the criticism as well when it's due.

So has cole Hamilton spoke to the charities and confirmed you’re theory or like him are you making it up.

If the refugees were put up in centre parks and given access to private healthcare you’d find a way of slating that too.

On other social media sites you’d be banned for trolling I’ve no idea why you’re allowed to slaver so much pish on here

[degenerated]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fe6d23452c7f19629a184e422db59bce.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220728/fbc5eb0f35498dcea775616e3c4f7c4d.jpg

No reply from Cole-Hamilton. Unionists determination to undermine anything positive that Scotland does is breathtaking.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs there anything that Cole Hamilton won't use in shameless political point scoring exercises. The guy is an absolute welt.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Please don’t give up. Get back in touch with your local authority. Speak to one of your local councillors if needed. At worst you should get an explanation of what would be required to make you a suitable location for a family

I will at first try and get an email correspondence going.
I also work for West Lothian Council so could maybe make inroads that way.

[James310]

No, I believe the story was about Cole Hamilton having another pop at the government. Where was his proposed solution? What has he done to help the situation? He has been asked for evidence that this meeting even took place and he can’t. As I say I think overall the way this has been handled has been excellent. Issues? Of course. Trying to manage an influx of 000s of people must be a logistical nightmare, but I still believe we asa country are doing well. Using made up phrases like bin fire shows how useless he is. When it comes to being a total arse he is even worse that Rennie was.

Aren't politicians of parties that aren't in government supposed to have "pops" at the government? When did this become a bad thing?

I am sure he met the charities and just because he never replied on Twitter doesn't mean he never.

[James310]

So has cole Hamilton spoke to the charities and confirmed you’re theory or like him are you making it up.

If the refugees were put up in centre parks and given access to private healthcare you’d find a way of slating that too.

On other social media sites you’d be banned for trolling I’ve no idea why you’re allowed to slaver so much pish on here

After your previous horrendous post this morning (deleted by Admins) forgive me for ignoring everything you say.

[weecounty hibby]

Aren't politicians of parties that aren't in government supposed to have "pops" at the government? When did this become a bad thing?

I am sure he met the charities and just because he never replied on Twitter doesn't mean he never.
Opposition is the easiest thing in the world. Pops at government are fine but it’s the constant stream of everything is bad and no possible solutions, especially from him and the Lib Dems. I’ve said many times that we need strong opposition that holds government to account. Sadly we don’t have that just a collection of folk who want to throw *****

[Zambernardi1875]

After your previous horrendous post this morning (deleted by Admins) forgive me for ignoring everything you say.

The context of that post still stands. How anyone can shamelessly admit to being a unionist after all they have done is beyond me

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62304573

Contrary to what has been posted on here. A Cruise Ship is being used to house 1,600 refugees until January 2023 while suitable accommodation can be arranged.

The Scottish Government had initially said that the super sponsor scheme would help 3,000 refugees. There has been more than 35,000 applications and over 23,000 visas issued.

[Ozyhibby]

It looks like a deliberate attempt to undermine a scheme to help vulnerable people fleeing a war torn country. Despicable man who is embarrassingly my MP.


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[He's here!]

Aw for **** sake no again with the once in a generation. Look up rhetoric in the dictionary. Then look up the Edinburgh agreement. Then try to find any mention of once in a generation in there. A document signed by ALL parties. Johnson once said he’d die in a ditch, did you believe he would follow through in that as well. Rhetoric! Pure and simple. And folk using that as their defence for not having another referendum are clutching at straws and have already lost the argument
And also I don’t believe even Jim Callaghan blamed the SNP for that VONC and lost election.

Salmond, and to a significant extent, Sturgeon, were the dominant figures of the independence campaign. Salmond stated that he believed the referendum was "a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in lifetime opportunity" while Sturgeon repeatedly called it "once in a generation" or "once in a lifetime". I think it's reasonable for anyone who voted back then to have attached significant weight to those opinions regardless of whether they appeared in the Edinburgh agreement. They're certainly more than throwaway rhetoric.

FWIW, this can be found within the SG's (admittedly much derided) white paper:

“If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?”

“The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence. It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

[He's here!]

The context of that post still stands. How anyone can shamelessly admit to being a unionist after all they have done is beyond me

Who's 'they'?

[Zambernardi1875]

Who's 'they'?

Who’s you?

[CropleyWasGod]

Aren't politicians of parties that aren't in government supposed to have "pops" at the government? When did this become a bad thing?

I am sure he met the charities and just because he never replied on Twitter doesn't mean he never.

What makes you sure that he met the charities?

[Moulin Yarns]

Salmond, and to a significant extent, Sturgeon, were the dominant figures of the independence campaign. Salmond stated that he believed the referendum was "a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in lifetime opportunity" while Sturgeon repeatedly called it "once in a generation" or "once in a lifetime". I think it's reasonable for anyone who voted back then to have attached significant weight to those opinions regardless of whether they appeared in the Edinburgh agreement. They're certainly more than throwaway rhetoric.

FWIW, this can be found within the SG's (admittedly much derided) white paper:

“If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?”

“The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence. It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

Which is worse, saying 'once in a generation opportunity' or '£350million a week for the NHS'?

[Keith_M]

Salmond, and to a significant extent, Sturgeon, were the dominant figures of the independence campaign. Salmond stated that he believed the referendum was "a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in lifetime opportunity" while Sturgeon repeatedly called it "once in a generation" or "once in a lifetime". I think it's reasonable for anyone who voted back then to have attached significant weight to those opinions regardless of whether they appeared in the Edinburgh agreement. They're certainly more than throwaway rhetoric.

FWIW, this can be found within the SG's (admittedly much derided) white paper:

“If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?”

“The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence. It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”


Would you like us to start quoting the lies and misinformation given out by the unionist side to scare people out of voting Yes?

Or how about the many promises made, e.g. The Vow, which we still await any evidence of ever happening?

Do you honestly need reminded, again, that one of the many scare tactics was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU... and of what happened next?

[James310]

What makes you sure that he met the charities?

What makes you sure he never? Generally I take people at face value, if Nicola Sturgeon said she met Charity X the first thing to spring into my mind is not "no she never, prove it"

Just because he never replied to someone on Twitter doesn't mean he made it up.

Maybe he never and it's all a massive lie, if he gets found out then it would be a career ending error so I would imagine it's unlikely he made it up when you consider what it was about and the consequences of being found to have lied about it all.

[weecounty hibby]

Would you like us to start quoting the lies and misinformation given out by the unionist side to scare people out of voting Yes?

Or how about the many promises made, e.g. The Vow, which we still await any evidence of ever happening.

Do you honestly need reminded, again, that one of the many scare tactics was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU, and of what happened next?
Wasting your time. He has ignored the Edinburgh agreement, a document signed by UK and SG and points to a white paper that is no more than a manifesto. It is the worst argument for not holding a referendum and shows the argument is lost. The Good Friday agreement actually states, in writing, signed by UK government that a political generation is seven years. We will be nine years down the line when we have indyref2 next Oct.

[Just Alf]

For those that think that what prominent politicians say during campaigns should be taken as gospel for evermore.....

Do you then agree that when the UK Prime minister said that if Scotland elected a majority of independence supporting MPs then independence negotiations can start at that point?

(Margaret Thatcher)

[James310]

For those that think that what prominent politicians say during campaigns should be taken as gospel for evermore.....

Do you then agree that when the UK Prime minister said that if Scotland elected a majority of independence supporting MPs then independence negotiations can start at that point?

(Margaret Thatcher)

Did she really say that, have seen it used a number of time but have never seen the source. She may well have but do you know where and when she said it and the original quote?

[CropleyWasGod]

What makes you sure he never? Generally I take people at face value, if Nicola Sturgeon said she met Charity X the first thing to spring into my mind is not "no she never, prove it"

Just because he never replied to someone on Twitter doesn't mean he made it up.

Maybe he never and it's all a massive lie, if he gets found out then it would be a career ending error so I would imagine it's unlikely he made it up when you consider what it was about and the consequences of being found to have lied about it all.

You have jumped to the conclusion that I don't believe him.

I have no.opinion on it without evidence either way. However, a major charity has already said that he didn't meet them.

I'm not sure that taking what politicians say at face value is the best thing these days.

[Ozyhibby]

What makes you sure he never? Generally I take people at face value, if Nicola Sturgeon said she met Charity X the first thing to spring into my mind is not "no she never, prove it"

Just because he never replied to someone on Twitter doesn't mean he made it up.

Maybe he never and it's all a massive lie, if he gets found out then it would be a career ending error so I would imagine it's unlikely he made it up when you consider what it was about and the consequences of being found to have lied about it all.

It’s not just someone on Twitter though is it? It’s the largest charity dealing with this issue in Scotland.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Would you like us to start quoting the lies and misinformation given out by the unionist side to scare people out of voting Yes?

Or how about the many promises made, e.g. The Vow, which we still await any evidence of ever happening?

Do you honestly need reminded, again, that one of the many scare tactics was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU... and of what happened next?

:agree: The hypocrisy is quite breathtaking when unionists use a couple of throwaway statements from the yes side as argumentation against a referendum but completely ignore the lies and promises made during the last one.

[James310]

It’s not just someone on Twitter though is it? It’s the largest charity dealing with this issue in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well if he is lying then he deserves everything he gets, not replying on Twitter is not a sure fire sign he is lying.

[James310]

Wasn't the Vow delivered?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref-vow-delivered-westminster-completes-13968479

I am taking the Daily Records word for it which is maybe a problem, but what wasn't delivered?

Also a Yes vote in 2014 was a vote to leave the EU, the EU confirmed that themselves and said Scotland upon Independence would become a third country and need to apply for membership.

[Hibrandenburg]

Wasn't the Vow delivered?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref-vow-delivered-westminster-completes-13968479

I am taking the Daily Records word for it which is maybe a problem, but what wasn't delivered?

Also a Yes vote in 2014 was a vote to leave the EU, the EU confirmed that themselves and said Scotland upon Independence would become a third country and need to apply for membership.

There was no official statement from the EU confirming what you claim. There were opinions expressed both for and against an independent Scotland remaining in the European Union, but the EU's official line was that it would not interfere in internal UK politics.

[weecounty hibby]

Wasn't the Vow delivered?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref-vow-delivered-westminster-completes-13968479

I am taking the Daily Records word for it which is maybe a problem, but what wasn't delivered?

Also a Yes vote in 2014 was a vote to leave the EU, the EU confirmed that themselves and said Scotland upon Independence would become a third country and need to apply for membership.

But the fact is that what actually happened was that Scotland has been removed from the European Union in what is the biggest act of self harm ever. There is no option of getting back as long as we are tied to the union. Neither Tories or Labour will reapply
From memory as well but wasn’t Brown promising some form of federalism and more say on how the uk is run from Scotland. None of that has happened, in fact with recent bills passed there is less say from Scotland

Edit. Should also have added the words Material Change in there somewhere as well!!!!

[James310]

There was no official statement from the EU confirming what you claim. There were opinions expressed both for and against an independent Scotland remaining in the European Union, but the EU's official line was that it would not interfere in internal UK politics.

Yes there was, what is this then? A letter from Vivian Reding who was Vice President of the European Commission Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship.


https://archive2021.parliament.scot/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf


Dear Ms McKelvie,

Thank you for your letter of 10 March 2014.

The European Union has been established by the relevant treaties among the Member
States. The Commission, as the guardian of those treaties, is responsible for overseeing their
implementation, including the implementation of provisions related to the accession of any
European State to the Union.
The Commission's position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of
occasions since 20041
. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory
of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an
independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new
independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with
respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply
anymore on its territory.
Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the
principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a
member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously after
consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, an
agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the
conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails.

This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.
Yours sincerely,

Ms Christina McKelvie, Convener
European and External Relations Committee

[ronaldo7]

What's that got to do with the SNP?

I know several officers in London met who're members. They're disgusted with their colleagues.

[ronaldo7]

As expected a deflection post….look at them…they are worse

Not at all. My point is people in power, all of them, are taking a liberty. It's happening all over, even in the service who's supposed to investigate it.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Smith Commission, which looked at the vow, was implemented by the scotland act 2016, however, the internal market act 2020 has overridden large amounts of the devolved powers of the governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[Berwickhibby]

I know several officers in London met who're members. They're disgusted with their colleagues.

Nothing Coppers hate more than bent coppers… unfortunately like lots of public services there has been huge drop in standards in recruitment….which imho leads to a poorer service and horrible individuals being appointed.

[Ozyhibby]

Nothing Coppers hate more than bent coppers… unfortunately like lots of public services there has been huge drop in standards in recruitment….which imho leads to a poorer service and horrible individuals being appointed.

I’d say the situation with bent coppers has improved over the years? Still far from acceptable but def improved.


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[ronaldo7]

Nothing Coppers hate more than bent coppers… unfortunately like lots of public services there has been huge drop in standards in recruitment….which imho leads to a poorer service and horrible individuals being appointed.

Or coppers turning a blind eye within their own force. My point again is about people in power doing the dirty, whether that's SNP politicians, or others.

Some only see what they want to see.

[Jack]

Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name given

An incompetent Labour party lost the election. That's how Thatcher came to power.

[Berwickhibby]

I’d say the situation with bent coppers has improved over the years? Still far from acceptable but def improved.


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And you can substantiate that how….

[He's here!]

Would you like us to start quoting the lies and misinformation given out by the unionist side to scare people out of voting Yes?

Or how about the many promises made, e.g. The Vow, which we still await any evidence of ever happening?

Do you honestly need reminded, again, that one of the many scare tactics was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU... and of what happened next?

What happened next was Sturgeon seized on Brexit to launch another independence bid only to discover it wasn't the game changer with voters she assumed and lost a third of the SNP's seats at Westminster.

[Mon Dieu4]

What happened next was Sturgeon seized on Brexit to launch another independence bid only to discover it wasn't the game changer with voters she assumed and lost a third of the SNP's seats at Westminster.

That's a bit disengenuous, the SNP got a record number of seats on the back of the failed Independence referendum as a kind of **** you vote, by the time the next general election came round there was never any hope of them maintaining that level of support, so to say they never kept that mental number of seats due to Brexit not being a game changer isn't strictly true is it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes there was, what is this then? A letter from Vivian Reding who was Vice President of the European Commission Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship.


https://archive2021.parliament.scot/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf


Dear Ms McKelvie,

Thank you for your letter of 10 March 2014.

The European Union has been established by the relevant treaties among the Member
States. The Commission, as the guardian of those treaties, is responsible for overseeing their
implementation, including the implementation of provisions related to the accession of any
European State to the Union.
The Commission's position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of
occasions since 20041
. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory
of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an
independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new
independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with
respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply
anymore on its territory.
Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the
principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a
member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously after
consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, an
agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the
conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails.

This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.
Yours sincerely,

Ms Christina McKelvie, Convener
European and External Relations Committee

Again, it was her opinion and completely ignored the question asked by McKelvie which related to Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty and not 49 which Reding quoted in her reply.

Entry to the EU for Scotland was very much on the table. If Scotland had voted yes then Article 48 could have been triggered to answer the Scotland question, we'll never know how that would have turned out because it was never tested. Reding's reply to McKelvie was also discredited by other EU representatives who criticised her assumption that Scotland would automatically become a third state after independence and article 48 would have decided that with some EU experts stating it would be ludicrous for Scotland to be expelled from the EU. In short, Reding might have sway in what she claims, however the decision wouldn't be hers to make.

[James310]

Again, it was her opinion and completely ignored the question asked by McKelvie which related to Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty and not 49 which Reding quoted in her reply.

Entry to the EU for Scotland was very much on the table. If Scotland had voted yes then Article 48 could have been triggered to answer the Scotland question, we'll never know how that would have turned out because it was never tested. Reding's reply to McKelvie was also discredited by other EU representatives who criticised her assumption that Scotland would automatically become a third state after independence and article 48 would have decided that with some EU experts stating it would be ludicrous for Scotland to be expelled from the EU. In short, Reding might have sway in what she claims, however the decision wouldn't be hers to make.

But at first you said there was no response from the EU now you say the response from the EU was rubbished.

The SNP plan was to keep Sterling and the Bank of England, totally incompatible with joining the EU.

[Hibrandenburg]

But at first you said there was no response from the EU now you say the response from the EU was rubbished.

The SNP plan was to keep Sterling and the Bank of England, totally incompatible with joining the EU.

I said there was no official statement from the EU. Reding isn't the EU.

[James310]

To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security.

It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.

[James310]

I said there was no official statement from the EU. Reding isn't the EU.

Who is the EU? It's an organisation and she worked for it in a senior position.

[ronaldo7]

To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security.

It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.

It was for people from the EU. They've changed their minds now though. :aok:

[grunt]

To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security. It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.
Uh, hello?? Have you been asleep for the last 6 years?

[Kato]

To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security.

It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.It was made out to be a big thing by the Unionist parties.

See where that got everyone.

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[grunt]

Do you then agree that when the UK Prime minister said that if Scotland elected a majority of independence supporting MPs then independence negotiations can start at that point? (Margaret Thatcher)


Did she really say that, have seen it used a number of time but have never seen the source. She may well have but do you know where and when she said it and the original quote?

This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpnlNh6XUAAqhVM?format=jpg&name=large

[Steven79]

Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name givenDid the SNP vote the Tories into power or was that the South of England?

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[Keith_M]

To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security.

It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.


It was one of many issues used in the carrot and stick approach of Project Fear, each of which are likely to have influenced a significant number of people.

No one, even your good self, can say exactly how many that influenced, so the only way to really find out is to have a second referendum.

[James310]

It was one of many issues used in the carrot and stick approach of Project Fear, each of which are likely to have influenced a significant number of people.

No one, even your good self, can say exactly how many that influenced, so the only way to really find out is to have a second referendum.

Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

[James310]

This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpnlNh6XUAAqhVM?format=jpg&name=large

That's quite a bit different to what is being suggested. In states we should have a choice and we did have that choice. Yes, arguements are ongoing about having another vote but it's not exactly Thatcher stating and saying what is being claimed.

Thanks for digging it out though, as I had always wondered where it had come from.

[McSwanky]

Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

Do you not think that that was because Brexit wasn't a thing back then? If people had known that the only way to stay in EU wasn't in fact by staying in the UK, in fact it was the opposite, then it may well have become a bigger issue.

[James310]

Do you not think that that was because Brexit wasn't a thing back then? If people had known that the only way to stay in EU wasn't in fact by staying in the UK, in fact it was the opposite, then it may well have become a bigger issue.

I think we knew a referendum was on the cards but yes I agree if people had a crystal ball and knew the UK was going to leave the EU it would have changed some votes at the time and been a bigger issue.

[Just Alf]

This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpnlNh6XUAAqhVM?format=jpg&name=largeThanks for this... was at work so it was a quick bit of typing on my phone... but yes, you're correct this was what I was meaning.

[Berwickhibby]

Did the SNP vote the Tories into power or was that the South of England?

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No 11 SNP MP’s crossed the chamber and sided with a vote of no confidence against the Labour Government, giving the Tories enough votes to call a General Election. Only plus point was that 9 of the 1l lost their seat and said election.

[greenlex]

Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll
It sure as Hell would be now.

[Moulin Yarns]

No 11 SNP MP’s crossed the chamber and sided with a vote of no confidence against the Labour Government, giving the Tories enough votes to call a General Election. Only plus point was that 9 of the 1l lost their seat and said election.

So did 13 Libdems, 5 UUP, 1 UUUP, 1 DUP and 1 Independent.

But Callaghan lost by 1 vot, how can you be sure it was the SNP vote and not one of the others????

[Kato]

Should there be a thread for those who imagine politics and democracy finished in 2014? Maybe another for those who imagine it was 1979?

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[Moulin Yarns]

Should there be a thread for those who imagine politics and democracy finished in 2014? Maybe another for those who imagine it was 1979?

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Great idea, but I think that it will be an echo chamber for the same 3 or 4 posters.

[He's here!]

:agree: The hypocrisy is quite breathtaking when unionists use a couple of throwaway statements from the yes side as argumentation against a referendum but completely ignore the lies and promises made during the last one.

If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.

[lapsedhibee]

If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.

This 'what someone said eight years ago means that a referendum now would be wrong' has all the weight of 'homosexuality is wrong because of what someone said in The Bible'. You have to close down all your rational faculties for it to have any merit at all.

[Steven79]

If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.Should the losing side in an election just accept the result forever?

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[He's here!]

So did 13 Libdems, 5 UUP, 1 UUUP, 1 DUP and 1 Independent.

But Callaghan lost by 1 vot, how can you be sure it was the SNP vote and not one of the others????

Labour had committed to support for a Scottish Assembly and in the general election of 1974 the SNP gained won a record 11 seats. For them to cut a deal with the leader of an opposition party which opposed devolution, let alone independence, was very much a case (as Callaghan said) of turkeys voting for Christmas. Little surprise that playing a key role in Thatcher's ascension saw them lose all but two of their seats and enter decades in the doldrums. Plaid Cymru's MPs, incidentally, voted with the Labour government.

Sure, it was 40 plus years ago, but it remains an indelible, if inconvenient, part of the SNP's history.

[grunt]

When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'.
Agree! Because life under the Tories is brilliant!! I love living in a country governed by a party that the country hasn't voted for in 66 years. Like a real democracy should be.

[He's here!]

Should the losing side in an election just accept the result forever?

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No, obviously not when your raison d'etre is to achieve independence. I'm just pointing out that it's not unreasonable to use the once in a generation/lifetime claim as a stick to beat them with, given that it was the leading light of the losing side who stated it.

[grunt]

If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said.
Can you really not tell the difference between an exhortation to vote and a legal statute?

[grunt]

No, obviously not when your raison d'etre is to achieve independence. I'm just pointing out that it's not unreasonable to use the once in a generation/lifetime claim as a stick to beat them with, given that it was the leading light of the losing side who stated it.
Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

[He's here!]

Agree! Because life under the Tories is brilliant!! I love living in a country governed by a party that the country hasn't voted for in 66 years. Like a real democracy should be.

Depends whether you regard living in the UK as 'life under the Tories' I guess. As I've made clear, there are numerous more meaningful aspects of being British for me than who happens to be in power at Westminster.

It's not so long ago, though, that we had a Labour government in power for over a decade, one which the Scottish electorate voted for in droves. The mantra that we never get what we vote for is a myth which suits the SNP to perpetuate.

[He's here!]

Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

It's just my opinion. I don't expect independence supporters to agree with it, but IMHO it's reasonable and shared by many.

[James310]

Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

Just because you don't agree with poster A or B doesn't mean they are trolling or stirring. They just have a different opinion to you.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour had committed to support for a Scottish Assembly and in the general election of 1974 the SNP gained won a record 11 seats. For them to cut a deal with the leader of an opposition party which opposed devolution, let alone independence, was very much a case (as Callaghan said) of turkeys voting for Christmas. Little surprise that playing a key role in Thatcher's ascension saw them lose all but two of their seats and enter decades in the doldrums. Plaid Cymru's MPs, incidentally, voted with the Labour government.

Sure, it was 40 plus years ago, but it remains an indelible, if inconvenient, part of the SNP's history.

Cut a deal??? Where is your proof? 1 vote, out of more than 20. Go on prove that the single vote was an snp vote!!!

[ronaldo7]

It's just my opinion. I don't expect independence supporters to agree with it, but IMHO it's reasonable and shared by many.

Maybe you could read this from someone who was there. It might refresh your memory.

It might even give you an incite into what actually happened. The deal that could have kept Callaghan in government which they decided not to do, and much more. Poor old Alfred Broughton was told not to bother turning up for the vote.

I get that Britnats will want to bash the Scotnats at all times, but their was too much going on in 1979, and the proceeding years to pin it all on the SNP, although that's been your want.

Happy reading. :aok:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/mar/22/james-callaghan-labour-1979-thatcher

[Keith_M]

Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll


It says in that article that 15% of people that voted No stated the prospect of leaving the EU was a major factor in their vote.

Three other major factors stated by No voters were 'Pensions', 'Defence & Security', 'Oil and Benefits'... all part of Project Fear.


You really need to read articles properly before posting them as evidence.

[James310]

It says in that article that 15% of people that voted No stated the prospect of leaving the EU was a major factor in their vote.

Three other major factors stated by No voters were 'Pensions', 'Defence & Security', 'Oil and Benefits'... all part of Project Fear.


You really need to read articles properly before posting them as evidence.

Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.

[grunt]

Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.
I'm not sure you can come to that conclusion when respondents were limited to "2 or 3" major issues in their replies. There may have been other issues which loomed larger (NHS, pensions) but by artificially limiting replies you can't be certain that the EU was not a major issue, it just wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for most people.

[James310]

I'm not sure you can come to that conclusion when respondents were limited to "2 or 3" major issues in their replies. There may have been other issues which loomed larger (NHS, pensions) but by artificially limiting replies you can't be certain that the EU was not a major issue, it just wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for most people.

I came to that conclusion because if the EU factor was a major issue it would have scored higher than most of the other major issues, it didn't.

[grunt]

I came to that conclusion because if the EU factor was a major issue it would have scored higher than most of the other major issues, it didn't.
You're not paying attention.

[He's here!]

Cut a deal??? Where is your proof? 1 vote, out of more than 20. Go on prove that the single vote was an snp vote!!!

There's nothing to 'prove'. The irrefutable fact is that the SNP agreed to vote with the Tories. Without that agreement Thatcher would obviously not have gone ahead with the vote of no confidence. It wasn't as though there was a sharp intake of breath as the 'Tartan Tories' walked through the lobby with the Tories. She knew she had them in her pocket.

As Callaghan put it during the no-confidence debate: "We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition discovered what the Liberals and the SNP would do, she found the courage of their convictions. So, tonight, the Conservative Party, which wants the Act repealed and opposes even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, which wants independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle! The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going around the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas."

[He's here!]

Maybe you could read this from someone who was there. It might refresh your memory.

It might even give you an incite into what actually happened. The deal that could have kept Callaghan in government which they decided not to do, and much more. Poor old Alfred Broughton was told not to bother turning up for the vote.

I get that Britnats will want to bash the Scotnats at all times, but their was too much going on in 1979, and the proceeding years to pin it all on the SNP, although that's been your want.

Happy reading. :aok:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/mar/22/james-callaghan-labour-1979-thatcher

The post you've replied to was in relation to Salmond's once in a generation/lifetime quote, but thanks for this anyway. I've read that Hattersley piece before but will do so again when I have time to wade through it as I remember it being excellent. I've also seen James Graham's play This House, which relates to the Broughton issue and is also superb. Hard to imagine such honour among whips these days.

I've never suggested the downfall of that Labour government could all be pinned on the SNP. However, there's simply no way of getting round the fact they voted with the Tories and in doing so helped to hasten the election which ushered in the Thatcher era.

[Moulin Yarns]

There's nothing to 'prove'. The irrefutable fact is that the SNP agreed to vote with the Tories. Without that agreement Thatcher would obviously not have gone ahead with the vote of no confidence. It wasn't as though there was a sharp intake of breath as the 'Tartan Tories' walked through the lobby with the Tories. She knew she had them in her pocket.

As Callaghan put it during the no-confidence debate: "We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition discovered what the Liberals and the SNP would do, she found the courage of their convictions. So, tonight, the Conservative Party, which wants the Act repealed and opposes even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, which wants independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle! The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going around the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas."

I don't suppose the defections of 3 labour mps in 1976 would have helped 🤣🤣🤣

Or indeed the lib-lab pact hadn't collapsed in 1978

Or maybe, just maybe, a Labour mp in England hadn't rigged the devolution referendum in March 1979.


If all of these things hadn't happened before the vote of confidence in Callaghan's government then thatcher might have been a bit more cautious about calling the VOC.

But, of course it's all the SNP fault 🙄

[Hibrandenburg]

Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.

Eh! 2 out of 10 is 20%. In a vote that ended 55% to 45% that makes it a huge factor.

[James310]

Eh! 2 out of 10 is 20%. In a vote that ended 55% to 45% that makes it a huge factor.

What?

Sure ok it was a massive issue and scored above Pensions, the economy, the NHS, the pound, defence and security and tax and public spending.

I mean it's such a huge issue now that the polls for Yes have moved significantly since 2016 and then the disaster that is Brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

What?

Sure ok it was a massive issue and scored above Pensions, the economy, the NHS, the pound, defence and security and tax and public spending.

I mean it's such a huge issue now that the polls for Yes have moved significantly since 2016 and then the disaster that is Brexit.

If 20% of the electorate were swayed by the fact (for fact read lie) that voting no meant Scotland would stay in the EU then that has major implications for the validity of the last referendum. If that fact (lie) was why 20% voted for No, then it had a major impact on the results of the 2014 referendum.

[James310]

If 20% of the electorate were swayed by the fact (for fact read lie) that voting no meant Scotland would stay in the EU then that has major implications for the validity of the last referendum. If that fact (lie) was why 20% voted for No, then it had a major impact on the results of the 2014 referendum.

It wasn't 20% it was 15% of No voters who said it was in the top 2 or 3 major issues. Which means it wasn't a top 2 or 3 major issue for 85% of No voters.

It wasn't a lie as in 2014 nobody could predict the future.

But believe whatever you like.

[ronaldo7]

The post you've replied to was in relation to Salmond's once in a generation/lifetime quote, but thanks for this anyway. I've read that Hattersley piece before but will do so again when I have time to wade through it as I remember it being excellent. I've also seen James Graham's play This House, which relates to the Broughton issue and is also superb. Hard to imagine such honour among whips these days.

I've never suggested the downfall of that Labour government could all be pinned on the SNP. However, there's simply no way of getting round the fact they voted with the Tories and in doing so helped to hasten the election which ushered in the Thatcher era.

I suppose if labour had done the deal with the liberals, Maggie wouldn't have got her chance, well, at least for another 6 months.

[Hibrandenburg]

It wasn't 20% it was 15% of No voters who said it was in the top 2 or 3 major issues. Which means it wasn't a top 2 or 3 major issue for 85% of No voters.

It wasn't a lie as in 2014 nobody could predict the future.

But believe whatever you like.

Just trying to use the figures you mentioned, even a 15% sway would have validity implications for the 2014 referendum. No need to predict what would happen regarding Brexit today, it's already happened.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who is the EU? It's an organisation and she worked for it in a senior position.

The EU is a democratically elected organisation, I know you Tories don't understand that but it makes democratic decisions based on its treaties agreed upon by each member state. Reding isn't the EU's dictator, she is one voice amongst many.

[Keith_M]

Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.


You really are into selective reading.

I mentioned a number of issues that, when added together, makes a significant difference in a vote that ended 55 to 45.

But if you want to take the EU issue alone, that's 15% of the 55% that voted No.

If even two thirds of those had voted otherwise on what they felt was a major issue, the vote would have been 50.5% Yes and 49.5% No.


Are you getting it yet?

[James310]

The EU is a democratically elected organisation, I know you Tories don't understand that but it makes democratic decisions based on its treaties agreed upon by each member state. Reding isn't the EU's dictator, she is one voice amongst many.

That's fine, you went from denying any statement had been made to rubbishing the statement that had been made. It was a clear statement from someone senior in the EU, that's good enough for me. I am sure if it said the opposite it would be used as evidence of the opposite. The policies the SNP had in 2014 made it clear we would have left the EU and had to apply to rejoin, things like not having your own currency and central bank being one such policy.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's fine, you went from denying any statement had been made to rubbishing the statement that had been made. It was a clear statement from someone senior in the EU, that's good enough for me. I am sure if it said the opposite it would have it being used as evidence of the opposite. The policies the SNP had in 2014 made it clear we would have left the EU and had to apply to rejoin, things like not having your own currency and central bank being one such policy.

No, I've went from saying the EU didn't make a statement to saying the EU as an organisation didn't make a statement because you can't distinguish between an individual in the EU and the EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's fine, you went from denying any statement had been made to rubbishing the statement that had been made. It was a clear statement from someone senior in the EU, that's good enough for me. I am sure if it said the opposite it would be used as evidence of the opposite. The policies the SNP had in 2014 made it clear we would have left the EU and had to apply to rejoin, things like not having your own currency and central bank being one such policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__wmsIn99E

[James310]

No, I've went from saying the EU didn't make a statement to saying the EU as an organisation didn't make a statement because you can't distinguish between an individual in the EU and the EU.

It's a moot point at the end of the day, the policies of the SNP meant Scotland could never have just automatically joined the EU upon Independence, not when they would be using the pound in an unofficial currency union and still relying on the Bank of England which would basically be a foreign countrys central bank.

[James310]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__wmsIn99E

What on earth is that?

[Ozyhibby]

It's a moot point at the end of the day, the policies of the SNP meant Scotland could never have just automatically joined the EU upon Independence, not when they would be using the pound in an unofficial currency union and still relying on the Bank of England which would basically be a foreign countrys central bank.

None will be an issue next time.[emoji106]


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[James310]

None will be an issue next time.[emoji106]


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Is that true? We have Ian Blackford saying Sterling will be used for "years" and then the SNP pass policies at conference saying 6 tests need to be met before a new currency is introduced and then others saying a new currency would be introduced within weeks of Independence. It's still all over the place.

I am sure the paper on currency whenever it's due will give us some insight.

[grunt]

It's still all over the place.

One day you complain that the ScotGov is wasting money planning for a referendum and the next day you complain that all the details for independence aren't completely worked out (and published so you can trash them). You're nothing if not inconsistent.

[James310]

One day you complain that the ScotGov is wasting money planning for a referendum and the next day you complain that all the details for independence aren't completely worked out (and published so you can trash them). You're nothing if not inconsistent.

I do think that ultimately it's going to be a waste of money yes, and effort and resources that could be put into something else. But the more I think about it the more I believe what's happening now is best for Nicola Sturgeon, rather than what's best for the Independence movement. She can leave office in a few years and say well I did all I could. But if the Supreme Court rules as expected and there is no referendum next year and she turns the General Election into a "defacto referendum" and gets less than 50% then basically that's IndyRef2 lost, and that could put back the Independence movement years. But she will be fine, did all she could etc, time for someone else to take it forward. Off to some UN job somewhere no doubt.

I know I am pretty much alone in thinking this but even some SNP and Indy supporters must be having some doubts.....

[weecounty hibby]

I do think that ultimately it's going to be a waste of money yes, and effort and resources that could be put into something else. But the more I think about it the more I believe what's happening now is best for Nicola Sturgeon, rather than what's best for the Independence movement. She can leave office in a few years and say well I did all I could. But if the Supreme Court rules as expected and there is no referendum next year and she turns the General Election into a "defacto referendum" and gets less than 50% then basically that's IndyRef2 lost, and that could put back the Independence movement years. But she will be fine, did all she could etc, time for someone else to take it forward. Off to some UN job somewhere no doubt.

I know I am pretty much alone in thinking this but even some SNP and Indy supporters must be having some doubts.....
That is another straw that is being clutched at by unionists. And the Indy supporters you see claiming that are the ones who are still clinging to the hope that Salmond is going to ride in on his charger shouting a freedom and unite everyone behind Alba. Never going to happen! NS has spent her entire adult life campaigning for independence. I’m sure she will still do so after the next referendum if it doesn’t go the right way. Albeit not as FM or leader of the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

One day you complain that the ScotGov is wasting money planning for a referendum and the next day you complain that all the details for independence aren't completely worked out (and published so you can trash them). You're nothing if not inconsistent.

That's actually grossly unfair. :tsk tsk:

There is an iron consistency there in saying absolutely anything and everything that's anti-Indy regardless of truth, context, internal logical conistency etc, etc.

[Ozyhibby]

I do think that ultimately it's going to be a waste of money yes, and effort and resources that could be put into something else. But the more I think about it the more I believe what's happening now is best for Nicola Sturgeon, rather than what's best for the Independence movement. She can leave office in a few years and say well I did all I could. But if the Supreme Court rules as expected and there is no referendum next year and she turns the General Election into a "defacto referendum" and gets less than 50% then basically that's IndyRef2 lost, and that could put back the Independence movement years. But she will be fine, did all she could etc, time for someone else to take it forward. Off to some UN job somewhere no doubt.

I know I am pretty much alone in thinking this but even some SNP and Indy supporters must be having some doubts.....

Here we go again. NS is both obsessed by gaining independence but also willing to set it back to protect her legacy.[emoji849]


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[ronaldo7]

Here we go again. NS is both obsessed by gaining independence but also willing to set it back to protect her legacy.[emoji849]


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Someone mentioned being all over the place earlier on. 🙈

[James310]

That's actually grossly unfair. :tsk tsk:

There is an iron consistency there in saying absolutely anything and everything that's anti-Indy regardless of truth, context, internal logical conistency etc, etc.

Why do you always reply to other posters to make your little points against me, you can reply to me as well you know. You are like the boy who punches from behind and then runs away.

[JeMeSouviens]

Here we go again. NS is both obsessed by gaining independence but also willing to set it back to protect her legacy.[emoji849]


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A legacy of late ferries and that time she took her mask off. Sad times. :rolleyes:

[Skol]

None will be an issue next time.[emoji106]


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I thought the policy was still to use the pound, so that is still true

[Keith_M]

A legacy of late ferries and that time she took her mask off. Sad times. :rolleyes:


She should really have resigned for that, TBF.

[Keith_M]

I thought the policy was still to use the pound, so that is still true


Is that the case now? I'm not really up to date on that part, so I honestly don't know.


My preference would be to (eventually) adopt the Euro, but there's usually some scare stories going round about that and I wonder if they're worried if that might put some people off.

It's a bit like retaining Royalty. I don't believe many people in the SNP genuinely want to do it, but I suspect it's an attempt to appeal to certain demographics.

[Berwickhibby]

I thought the policy was still to use the pound, so that is still true

Nah it’s beebaws and Smackeroonies ….

[JeMeSouviens]

I thought the policy was still to use the pound, so that is still true

That assumes it was true in the first place.

Amazingly! It's not.

The criteria for EU accession - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership_en

Having your own currency is a condition of joining the Eurozone, not the EU. To join the EU, an iScotland would have to commit in principle to joining the Eurozone, but there is no timescale applied to that. There are 8 EU countries not currently using the Euro: Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden.

Sweden has been committed to join since 1995, but has not met the conditions (purposefully, ie. they've decided up until now to keep their own currency).

[JeMeSouviens]

Nah it’s beebaws and Smackeroonies ….

I think "groats" is the favoured hilarious put down of choice.

[Zambernardi1875]

Nah it’s beebaws and Smackeroonies ….

We could trade in haggis and still do a better job than the Westminster

[James310]

From this page quoted.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership_en


"The first step is for the country to meet the key criteria for accession. These were mainly defined at the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 and are hence referred to as 'Copenhagen criteria'."

Using the pound informally is the current position of the SNP based on their Growth Commission report. In terms of joining the EU, It is a non-starter. The economic criteria of ‘functioning market economy’ which is a feature of the Copenhagen Agreement is measured by showing a track record in managing monetary policies such as Interest rates and quantitative easing; which Scotland couldn’t show as it would all be decided in the non-EU rUK.

Kirsty Hughes is widely recognised as an expert in this area and is a huge supporter of Scottish Independence, she says;

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1148954503749783553?t=lLFXVJiTreFpkhvOVGxXTw&s=19

"Other issues will come to the fore too: if an indy Scotland adopts the pound for several years & UK is out of the EU, that will mean Scotland doesn't meet EU accession criteria."

And

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1199047213139275776?t=9PxlnRHr_xWCj8r9aNnG4A&s=19


Unlikely to take indy Scotland 10 years to rejoin EU https://t.co/03EyeUv06m. But there is a problem of using pound, if rUK has left EU: member states not in euro are meant to target price stability & treat their exchange rate w euro as matter of common concern.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20157543.independent-scotland-keep-british-pound-years-ian-blackford-says/

"An independent Scotland could keep British pound for years, Ian Blackford says"

[Hibrandenburg]

From this page quoted.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership_en


"The first step is for the country to meet the key criteria for accession. These were mainly defined at the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 and are hence referred to as 'Copenhagen criteria'."

Using the pound informally is the current position of the SNP based on their Growth Commission report. In terms of joining the EU, It is a non-starter. The economic criteria of ‘functioning market economy’ which is a feature of the Copenhagen Agreement is measured by showing a track record in managing monetary policies such as Interest rates and quantitative easing; which Scotland couldn’t show as it would all be decided in the non-EU rUK.

Kirsty Hughes is widely recognised as an expert in this area and is a huge supporter of Scottish Independence, she says;

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1148954503749783553?t=lLFXVJiTreFpkhvOVGxXTw&s=19

"Other issues will come to the fore too: if an indy Scotland adopts the pound for several years & UK is out of the EU, that will mean Scotland doesn't meet EU accession criteria."

And

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1199047213139275776?t=9PxlnRHr_xWCj8r9aNnG4A&s=19


Unlikely to take indy Scotland 10 years to rejoin EU https://t.co/03EyeUv06m. But there is a problem of using pound, if rUK has left EU: member states not in euro are meant to target price stability & treat their exchange rate w euro as matter of common concern.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20157543.independent-scotland-keep-british-pound-years-ian-blackford-says/

"An independent Scotland could keep British pound for years, Ian Blackford says"

There are already exceptions to areas and citizens in the EU using currencies that are not their own. The EU has shown flexibility elsewhere so why not Scotland? Too wee?

[James310]

There are already exceptions to areas and citizens in the EU using currencies that are not their own. The EU has shown flexibility elsewhere so why not Scotland? Too wee?

Which EU member state uses another countries currency?

Kirsty Hughes is founder and Director of the Scottish Centre on European Relations. Are we now at the Brexit stage of ignoring the experts?

[Moulin Yarns]

Turkish lira is used in Cyprus, Swiss Frank is used in both Italy and Germany. While these countries are in the eurozone there are areas, which for historical reasons still use 'foreign' currency.

[James310]

Turkish lira is used in Cyprus, Swiss Frank is used in both Italy and Germany. While these countries are in the eurozone there are areas, which for historical reasons still use 'foreign' currency.

Lol, the official currency of Cyprus is the Euro.

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/country-profiles/cyprus_en

Currency: euro. Euro area member since 1 January 2008

I don't need to tell you what the official currency of Italy and Germany is.

Your examples are not of whole countries using a different currency, not even close.

If I posted such a tenuous link it would be ridiculed.

This feels very Brexity, ignore the expert's and assume we will get some kind of special deal just because.

[Hibrandenburg]

Which EU member state uses another countries currency?

Kirsty Hughes is founder and Director of the Scottish Centre on European Relations. Are we now at the Brexit stage of ignoring the experts?

Norther Cyprus is one example, whilst being legally within the EU its official currency is the Turkish Lira. Campionne d'Italia is also a strange exception after becoming part of the EU in 2020. Officially their currency is now the Euro but in reality all that is accepted is the Swiss Franc.

Like everything in the EU, where there's a will there's a way.

[Hibrandenburg]

Lol, the official currency of Cyprus is the Euro.

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/country-profiles/cyprus_en

Currency: euro. Euro area member since 1 January 2008

I don't need to tell you what the official currency of Italy and Germany is.

Your examples are not of whole countries using a different currency, not even close.

If I posted such a tenuous link it would be ridiculed.

This feels very Brexity, ignore the expert's and assume we will get some kind of special deal just because.

The fact is there are exceptions to the scenario you paint, why wouldn't Scotland be offered similar flexibility by the EU? Too wee, too stupid or too poor?

[James310]

Norther Cyprus is one example, whilst being legally within the EU its official currency is the Turkish Lira. Campionne d'Italia is also a strange exception after becoming part of the EU in 2020. Officially their currency is now the Euro but in reality all that is accepted is the Swiss Franc.

Like everything in the EU, where there's a will there's a way.

The fact we are at the stage of saying Scotland is similar to Northern Cyrpus, which is only legally recognized by Turkey, or a commune in Italy with a population of under 2,000 people then it's more desperate than I thought.

There is no formal EU member state that uses another countries currency.

Why can't the answer be along the lines of yes it's an issue, something that we need answers on and hopefully we get them instead of referring to communes in Italy with under 2,000 people and the size of an Edinburgh suburb.

[ronaldo7]

Norther Cyprus is one example, whilst being legally within the EU its official currency is the Turkish Lira. Campionne d'Italia is also a strange exception after becoming part of the EU in 2020. Officially their currency is now the Euro but in reality all that is accepted is the Swiss Franc.

Like everything in the EU, where there's a will there's a way.

It seems some folk just want to put blockers in the way of progress, can't see a different future, and prefer the status quo. They'll tell you different, but never will they put up a positive about joining Europe. It's always what can't be done, rather than what can.

As you say, where there's a will there's a way.

[James310]

The fact is there are exceptions to the scenario you paint, why wouldn't Scotland be offered similar flexibility by the EU? Too wee, too stupid or too poor?

Sorry I just don't take it seriously that the examples you quote are in any way comparable. If they were we would see them being used regularly and often by Independence supporters, we never have.

If you think they are relevant examples then that's great. We can agree to disagree.

[Hibrandenburg]

The fact we are at the stage of saying Scotland is similar to Northern Cyrpus, which is only legally recognized by Turkey, or a commune in Italy with a population of under 2,000 people then it's more desperate than I thought.

There is no formal EU member state that uses another countries currency.

Why can't the answer be along the lines of yes it's an issue, something that we need answers on and hopefully we get them instead of referring to communes in Italy with under 2,000 people and the size of an Edinburgh suburb.

Nobody is saying that. We're saying there are exceptions to the scenario you think is set in stone.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lol, the official currency of Cyprus is the Euro.

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/country-profiles/cyprus_en

Currency: euro. Euro area member since 1 January 2008

I don't need to tell you what the official currency of Italy and Germany is.

Your examples are not of whole countries using a different currency, not even close.

If I posted such a tenuous link it would be ridiculed.

This feels very Brexity, ignore the expert's and assume we will get some kind of special deal just because.

Hibrandenburg has also given you the same information. Such a shame you can't help but be negative all the time.

You asked if any EU state used another currency and have been given the same answer twice. It may not be the whole country but that is not what you asked.

[James310]

It seems some folk just want to put blockers in the way of progress, can't see a different future, and prefer the status quo. They'll tell you different, but never will they put up a positive about joining Europe. It's always what can't be done, rather than what can.

As you say, where there's a will there's a way.

This could have been said word for word by a Brexiteer about Brexit.

The arguments and challenges are looking really similar now.

[James310]

Hibrandenburg has also given you the same information. Such a shame you can't help but be negative all the time.

You asked if any EU state used another currency and have been given the same answer twice. It may not be the whole country but that is not what you asked.

A commune in Italy is not an EU member state! Northern Cyrpus is not recognized by anyone except Turkey. The official currency of Cyrpus is the Euro.

If you believe these are great examples and you have got me here then crack on.

And I asked if an existing EU state joined the EU using another countries currency, big difference.

[Berwickhibby]

Turkish lira is used in Cyprus, Swiss Frank is used in both Italy and Germany. While these countries are in the eurozone there are areas, which for historical reasons still use 'foreign' currency.

Lived in Germany for a reasonable length of time both as Military and as a Civilian, I have seen the West DM used and the Euro…never seen the Swiss Frank used even in Bavaria

[CropleyWasGod]

Is the Euro (or a promise to adopt it) mandatory for joining the Single Market?

[ronaldo7]

This could have been said word for word by a Brexiteer about Brexit.

The arguments and challenges are looking really similar now.

Nonsense.

Brexit was about going it alone. Independence for Scotland is looking outward in the world, and joining other countries for the common good.

[Kato]

From this page quoted.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership_en


"The first step is for the country to meet the key criteria for accession. These were mainly defined at the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 and are hence referred to as 'Copenhagen criteria'."

Using the pound informally is the current position of the SNP based on their Growth Commission report. In terms of joining the EU, It is a non-starter. The economic criteria of ‘functioning market economy’ which is a feature of the Copenhagen Agreement is measured by showing a track record in managing monetary policies such as Interest rates and quantitative easing; which Scotland couldn’t show as it would all be decided in the non-EU rUK.

Kirsty Hughes is widely recognised as an expert in this area and is a huge supporter of Scottish Independence, she says;

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1148954503749783553?t=lLFXVJiTreFpkhvOVGxXTw&s=19

"Other issues will come to the fore too: if an indy Scotland adopts the pound for several years & UK is out of the EU, that will mean Scotland doesn't meet EU accession criteria."

And

https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1199047213139275776?t=9PxlnRHr_xWCj8r9aNnG4A&s=19


Unlikely to take indy Scotland 10 years to rejoin EU https://t.co/03EyeUv06m. But there is a problem of using pound, if rUK has left EU: member states not in euro are meant to target price stability & treat their exchange rate w euro as matter of common concern.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20157543.independent-scotland-keep-british-pound-years-ian-blackford-says/

"An independent Scotland could keep British pound for years, Ian Blackford says"Looks problematic but not insurmountable. I'd rather have a problem which leads to a better place than live in our current kleptocracy.

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[ronaldo7]

Is the Euro (or a promise to adopt it) mandatory for joining the Single Market?

Nope.

Iceland, Lichtenstein, and Norway, are members.

The options for an independent Scotland include Efta, and much more.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is the Euro (or a promise to adopt it) mandatory for joining the Single Market?

No, and in fact you can't join the Eurozone without being in the EU. Kosovo and Montenegro both use the Euro without being Eurozone members.

I'm pretty sure the reality of the situation is that iScotland would be "parked" in the EEA pre-accession and would take a few years to transition to full EU membership. During that time, we would also transition from any period of Sterlingisation to our own currency.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks, both.

Kinda knew that, but was confused by some of the more extreme chat going on there.

It's therefore up to the Yes side to make all of that explicit, so that it's not hidden by the smoke of the No side.

[He's here!]

Nonsense.

Brexit was about going it alone. Independence for Scotland is looking outward in the world, and joining other countries for the common good.

Just as long as we're not joined to the b*****d English tho :wink:

Joking aside, how does that sunny outlook square with more than a third of SNP supporters voting for Brexit?

I've never bought into this supposed love for the EU that Scotland has allegedly always had. I doubt if I ever gave it a second thought pre-Brexit and even now a Yes Minister episode about the consistency of sausages (or something like that...it's the one where Hacker becomes PM) is pretty much the first thing I associate with the EU!

[James310]

Thanks, both.

Kinda knew that, but was confused by some of the more extreme chat going on there.

It's therefore up to the Yes side to make all of that explicit, so that it's not hidden by the smoke of the No side.

You may be surprised to hear I agree. The SNP policy is full EU membership for Scotland, nothing less. If they had some kind of roadmap that said stage 1 we will do this, stage 2 we will do this which them leads onto stage 3 etc then it would stop some of the noise.

We have nothing like that at all though. It's just we will join the EU, so any noise will be around what joining the EU means until they clarify otherwise.

[ronaldo7]

Just as long as we're not joined to the b*****d English tho :wink:

Joking aside, how does that sunny outlook square with more than a third of SNP supporters voting for Brexit?

I've never bought into this supposed love for the EU that Scotland has allegedly always had. I doubt if I ever gave it a second thought pre-Brexit and even now a Yes Minister episode about the consistency of sausages (or something like that...it's the one where Hacker becomes PM) is pretty much the first thing I associate with the EU!

That's a terrible first sentence. Shame on you.

The English and Welsh are welcome to come along when they can stand on their own without Scotland's resources. Not sure the rest of the EU would accept them though.

Im all for working with my European neighbours as an equal partner. I can always wave at my English friends as I swan through border control.

Do you have an up to date figure for those SNP members who voted for Brexit 6 years ago?

[Moulin Yarns]

Just as long as we're not joined to the b*****d English tho :wink:

Joking aside, how does that sunny outlook square with more than a third of SNP supporters voting for Brexit?

I've never bought into this supposed love for the EU that Scotland has allegedly always had. I doubt if I ever gave it a second thought pre-Brexit and even now a Yes Minister episode about the consistency of sausages (or something like that...it's the one where Hacker becomes PM) is pretty much the first thing I associate with the EU!

Does this mean that the fabled 60% voted against Brexit?


Asking for a friend? 🤣

[James310]

Does this mean that the fabled 60% voted against Brexit?


Asking for a friend? 🤣

Aw, I was hoping for a random YouTube video. What was that previous one all about by the way?

[The Modfather]

You may be surprised to hear I agree. The SNP policy is full EU membership for Scotland, nothing less. If they had some kind of roadmap that said stage 1 we will do this, stage 2 we will do this which them leads onto stage 3 etc then it would stop some of the noise.

We have nothing like that at all though. It's just we will join the EU, so any noise will be around what joining the EU means until they clarify otherwise.

Will the no side provide a similar roadmap to how we get out of the post Brexit managed decline we’re in? You only want to talk about the difficulties of independence, of which there are many, but avoid at all costs talking about the difficulties that come with a second no vote.

[CropleyWasGod]

You may be surprised to hear I agree. The SNP policy is full EU membership for Scotland, nothing less. If they had some kind of roadmap that said stage 1 we will do this, stage 2 we will do this which them leads onto stage 3 etc then it would stop some of the noise.

We have nothing like that at all though. It's just we will join the EU, so any noise will be around what joining the EU means until they clarify otherwise.

Promise? :greengrin

[James310]

Promise? :greengrin

Well maybe just a different kind of noise!

[Zambernardi1875]

Thanks, both.

Kinda knew that, but was confused by some of the more extreme chat going on there.

It's therefore up to the Yes side to make all of that explicit, so that it's not hidden by the smoke of the No side.

Which the yes and snp have frustratingly not been doing since 2014 and instead concentrated on other ridiculous policies

[CropleyWasGod]

Which the yes and snp have frustratingly not been doing since 2014 and instead concentrated on other ridiculous policies

Like running the country?

[Zambernardi1875]

Like running the country?

8 years on and the snp still haven’t addressed the issues around currency or timescales on joining the EU. Until they are the no side will always have that as a trump card. I’m surprised and frustrated this has happened yet to convince people on the fence.

[grunt]

8 years on and the snp still haven’t addressed the issues around currency or timescales on joining the EU.
Do you think that choosing a currency for a newly independent country is like buying a car? "I'll have that one, in yellow, with a diesel engine and alloy wheels". Same with timescales. Once we vote for independence there will be difficult discussions and negotiations to be had both with rUK and with the EU. Neither of these discussions can go very far at present because the rUK are denying that Scotland will ever be independent, and the EU can't openly have such discussions with us until we've made some progress with a referendum.

So I expect there's a lot of thinking going on at SG, and there will ultimately be a white paper setting out some broad principles around both currency and timetable. As said above, where there's a will there's a way. We will get to these things, at the appropriate time.

[James310]

I keep seeing where there is a will there's a way, I knew I had seen it before. Yes it's common phrase but I am sure at the time this would have been criticised by the very same people saying it now.

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/hunt-where-way-brexit-083720541.html

[Zambernardi1875]

Do you think that choosing a currency for a newly independent country is like buying a car? "I'll have that one, in yellow, with a diesel engine and alloy wheels". Same with timescales. Once we vote for independence there will be difficult discussions and negotiations to be had both with rUK and with the EU. Neither of these discussions can go very far at present because the rUK are denying that Scotland will ever be independent, and the EU can't openly have such discussions with us until we've made some progress with a referendum.

So I expect there's a lot of thinking going on at SG, and there will ultimately be a white paper setting out some broad principles around both currency and timetable. As said above, where there's a will there's a way. We will get to these things, at the appropriate time.

After 2014 the SG should’ve brought out its own Scottish currency. Pegged ti the pound like the idea in Bristol but with maybe incentives on using that currency instead. Therefore now we’d have a better argument to say look we have our own currency and then also after joining the EU either used both. But this “all will be revealed later” isn’t swaying voters

[CropleyWasGod]

After 2014 the SG should’ve brought out its own Scottish currency. Pegged ti the pound like the idea in Bristol but with maybe incentives on using that currency instead. Therefore now we’d have a better argument to say look we have our own currency and then also after joining the EU either used both. But this “all will be revealed later” isn’t swaying voters

Apart from the fact that that's probably not legal, there is no central bank to support it.

[grunt]

I keep seeing where there is a will there's a way, I knew I had seen it before. Yes it's common phrase but I am sure at the time this would have been criticised by the very same people saying it now.

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/hunt-where-way-brexit-083720541.htmlI guess you mean me. And QED, Hunt was right. Johnson was so determined to "get Brexit done" that he went back on his word and pushed Brexit through.

[James310]

I guess you mean me. And QED, Hunt was right. Johnson was so determined to "get Brexit done" that he went back on his word and pushed Brexit through.

You are not the only one that has said it.

[James310]

Apart from the fact that that's probably not legal, there is no central bank to support it.

Maybe he is onto something.

https://twitter.com/RideoutTim/status/1553017294758060032?t=5nJoPYkKhPeSbKLtqsizeg&s=19


I wonder what the exchange rate is?

[Berwickhibby]

Maybe he is onto something.

https://twitter.com/RideoutTim/status/1553017294758060032?t=5nJoPYkKhPeSbKLtqsizeg&s=19


I wonder what the exchange rate is?

2 smackeroonies and bawbee to the pound…looks like a Ponzi scam

[James310]

2 smackeroonies and bawbee to the pound…looks like a Ponzi scam

He is the guy suspended by the SNP for making racist comments and runs the fake Bank. He seems a bit of a fantasist. It's like playing shops when you were younger.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, and in fact you can't join the Eurozone without being in the EU. Kosovo and Montenegro both use the Euro without being Eurozone members.

I'm pretty sure the reality of the situation is that iScotland would be "parked" in the EEA pre-accession and would take a few years to transition to full EU membership. During that time, we would also transition from any period of Sterlingisation to our own currency.

Like I said earlier, where there's a will there's a way. The EU can and have shown flexibility in the past. It's ludicrous to say they'd take a hard line with Scotland.

[James310]

Like I said earlier, where there's a will there's a way. The EU can and have shown flexibility in the past. It's ludicrous to say they'd take a hard line with Scotland.

Are you aware of the EU relaxing the rules for anyone else? Montenegro applied for EU membership in 2008 and is still waiting, why are they not being flexible with them?

The EU said in a paper from 2014.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/sites/near/files/pdf/key_documents/2013/package/strategy_paper_2013_en.pdf

"The accession process today is more rigorous and comprehensive than in the past. This reflects the evolution of EU policies as well as lessons learned from previous enlargements. The process is built on strict but fair conditionality with progress towards membership dependent on the steps taken by each country to meet the established criteria. A key lesson from the past is the importance of addressing the fundamentals first."

There is little basis for saying somehow Scotland will get a special deal. I am not saying they will take a hard line, they will just insist the rules are followed. Meet the criteria and you are in.

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland will do whatever it has to do to re-enter the EU. Anyone who says on here we wont is surely just trolling?


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[Hibrandenburg]

Are you aware of the EU relaxing the rules for anyone else? Montenegro applied for EU membership in 2008 and is still waiting, why are they not being flexible with them?

The EU said in a paper from 2014.

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/sites/near/files/pdf/key_documents/2013/package/strategy_paper_2013_en.pdf

"The accession process today is more rigorous and comprehensive than in the past. This reflects the evolution of EU policies as well as lessons learned from previous enlargements. The process is built on strict but fair conditionality with progress towards membership dependent on the steps taken by each country to meet the established criteria. A key lesson from the past is the importance of addressing the fundamentals first."

There is little basis for saying somehow Scotland will get a special deal. I am not saying they will take a hard line, they will just insist the rules are followed. Meet the criteria and you are in.

To quote you, "are you really comparing Scotland to Montenegro"?

[James310]

To quote you, "are you really comparing Scotland to Montenegro"?

Well it's a far better example than a commune in Italy with a population under 2,000 and the size of an Edinburgh suburb. It's an actual country going through the application process now.

But can you name any examples of where the EU was flexible with entry requirements, there may well be some but I am not aware of any?

[StevieC]

Are you aware of the EU relaxing the rules for anyone else?.

Ukraine and Moldova.

Okay, it’s only fast tracking them to Candidate status, but once you’ve received candidate status you only need to comply with laws and regulations, which we already do.

[James310]

Ukraine and Moldova.

Okay, it’s only fast tracking them to Candidate status, but once you’ve received candidate status you only need to comply with laws and regulations, which we already do.

They were clear, no special deal. This just backs up my point, if they won't do it for Ukraine why would they change the rules for Scotland?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220616IPR33216/grant-eu-candidate-status-to-ukraine-and-moldova-without-delay-meps-demand


"In the context of the brutal Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, this move would equate to showing leadership, resolve and vision, say MEPs. They insist that there is no ‘fast-track’ for EU membership and that accession remains a merit-based and structured process, which requires EU membership criteria to be fulfilled and is dependent on the effective implementation of reforms"

I mean it's there in black and white, no fast track process. You meet the rules you are in, it's the same for all countries, but somehow Scotland would be different...it's a baseless claim.

[The Modfather]

They were clear, no special deal. This just backs up my point, if they won't do it for Ukraine why would they change the rules for Scotland?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220616IPR33216/grant-eu-candidate-status-to-ukraine-and-moldova-without-delay-meps-demand


"In the context of the brutal Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, this move would equate to showing leadership, resolve and vision, say MEPs. They insist that there is no ‘fast-track’ for EU membership and that accession remains a merit-based and structured process, which requires EU membership criteria to be fulfilled and is dependent on the effective implementation of reforms"

I mean it's there in black and white, no fast track process. You meet the rules you are in, it's the same for all countries, but somehow Scotland would be different...it's a baseless claim.

Are you now just arguing about the timescales of Scotland re-joining the EU? You’ve admited yourself that Brexit is an economic disaster. Would you see any benefit in Scotland re-joining the EU, whether that takes 1 year or 20, over remaining in the union that very much won’t be re-joining the EU?

[Ozyhibby]

Are you now just arguing about the timescales of Scotland re-joining the EU? You’ve admited yourself that Brexit is an economic disaster. Would you see any benefit in Scotland re-joining the EU, whether that takes 1 year or 20, over remaining in the union that very much won’t be re-joining the EU?

Think they are back to arguing that they won’t let us in.[emoji849]


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[greenlex]

They were clear, no special deal. This just backs up my point, if they won't do it for Ukraine why would they change the rules for Scotland?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220616IPR33216/grant-eu-candidate-status-to-ukraine-and-moldova-without-delay-meps-demand


"In the context of the brutal Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, this move would equate to showing leadership, resolve and vision, say MEPs. They insist that there is no ‘fast-track’ for EU membership and that accession remains a merit-based and structured process, which requires EU membership criteria to be fulfilled and is dependent on the effective implementation of reforms"

I mean it's there in black and white, no fast track process. You meet the rules you are in, it's the same for all countries, but somehow Scotland would be different...it's a baseless claim.
You obviously think a nation that has previous membership albeit as part of a “Union” that was removed against its peoples wishes would hold no sway in a swift return. You might find a special resolution would be found. Even if it was just to piss off former members. Politics is a funny old game. What sort of reforms that Ukraine need to make do you envisage an Independent Scotland having to do?

[ronaldo7]

You are not the only one that has said it.

You definitely haven't. Too positive for you. 😁

[James310]

Think they are back to arguing that they won’t let us in.[emoji849]


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Never said that once, I am being pretty clear you meet the rules and you are in. Just like Ukraine and just like every other country, Scotland won't be any different. All this talk of special deals or flexibility because we are Scotland is baseless and wishful thinking.

It's in black and white from the EU.

"No fast track to EU membership; accession only on the basis of merit and once criteria are fulfilled"

The above is exactly what I am saying.

[James310]

You definitely haven't. Too positive for you. 😁

Have you been studying Nigel Farage? He used to accuse the opponents of Brexit of being too negative when all they were doing was pointing out the facts and the truth.

[James310]

You obviously think a nation that has previous membership albeit as part of a “Union” that was removed against its peoples wishes would hold no sway in a swift return. You might find a special resolution would be found. Even if it was just to piss off former members. Politics is a funny old game. What sort of reforms that Ukraine need to make do you envisage an Independent Scotland having to do?

What's not clear in the EU stating:

"No fast track EU membership; accession only on the basis of merit and once criteria are fulfilled"

Maybe it's all lies.

Have said enough now, back to repeating myself over and over.

[Moulin Yarns]

Never said that once, I am being pretty clear you meet the rules and you are in. Just like Ukraine and just like every other country, Scotland won't be any different. All this talk of special deals or flexibility because we are Scotland is baseless and wishful thinking.

It's in black and white from the EU.

"No fast track to EU membership; accession only on the basis of merit and once criteria are fulfilled"

The above is exactly what I am saying.


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2021/03/31/scotlands-route-to-eu-membership/

Black and White from the EU, 3 or 4 years 😁

[James310]

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2021/03/31/scotlands-route-to-eu-membership/

Black and White from the EU, 3 or 4 years 😁

What you have actually done is link to a blog post from the LSE which references an article from said Kirsty Hughes, the one who says using the pound (the same pound Ian Blackford says we will use for years) is a blocker to joining the EU. As a reminder.

"Other issues will come to the fore too: if an indy Scotland adopts the pound for several years & UK is out of the EU, that will mean Scotland doesn't meet EU accession criteria."

The last bit is key "that will mean Scotland doesn't meet the EU accession criteria"

So in fact nothing from the EU at all and you back up my point, thanks for that.

[ronaldo7]

Have you been studying Nigel Farage? He used to accuse the opponents of Brexit of being too negative when all they were doing was pointing out the facts and the truth.

You seem obsessed with Brexit. I suppose when you voted for a party that supported it, it's expected.

You're going round in circles again. 🙈

[stoneyburn hibs]

Do you think that choosing a currency for a newly independent country is like buying a car? "I'll have that one, in yellow, with a diesel engine and alloy wheels". Same with timescales. Once we vote for independence there will be difficult discussions and negotiations to be had both with rUK and with the EU. Neither of these discussions can go very far at present because the rUK are denying that Scotland will ever be independent, and the EU can't openly have such discussions with us until we've made some progress with a referendum.

So I expect there's a lot of thinking going on at SG, and there will ultimately be a white paper setting out some broad principles around both currency and timetable. As said above, where there's a will there's a way. We will get to these things, at the appropriate time.

Who the #### would buy a yellow car?
Have a word 😜

[StevieC]

They were clear, no special deal. This just backs up my point, if they won't do it for Ukraine why would they change the rules for Scotland?.

Are you just arguing for arguments sake now??
It WAS a special deal, they were fast tracked to candidate status by way of a vote that bypassed the usual lengthy application process for candidate status.
How on earth does that “back up your point” that the EU don’t provide special treatment??
They DID change the rules for Ukraine and Moldova, so why wouldn’t they fast track Scotland to candidate status in the same way?

[Jones28]

Can I just ask: in a modern world where the majority of transactions are done using cards and contactless payment methods: what’s the big deal with using the euro?

I personally couldn’t give a ****, and I’d rather see us use the euro if it meant an easier transition to rejoining the EU.

My parents live in Berwickshire and do their weekly shops in Berwick, but they are in the same boat. Now the borders has always been staunchly pro union, and it’s understandable particularly in the East where the biggest town locally is over the Border, but I wonder if the SNP came and said actually we would adopt the euro if it would ease the issue for lots of people.

[James310]

Can I just ask: in a modern world where the majority of transactions are done using cards and contactless payment methods: what’s the big deal with using the euro?

I personally couldn’t give a ****, and I’d rather see us use the euro if it meant an easier transition to rejoining the EU.

My parents live in Berwickshire and do their weekly shops in Berwick, but they are in the same boat. Now the borders has always been staunchly pro union, and it’s understandable particularly in the East where the biggest town locally is over the Border, but I wonder if the SNP came and said actually we would adopt the euro if it would ease the issue for lots of people.

There is one reason and one reason only why the SNP won't endorse the Euro.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19499617.poll-independence-support-fall-scotland-set-adopt-euro/

"Almost 40 per cent of Scots are less likely to back independence if separation plans appeared on course for the country adopting the euro currency, a new poll has revealed.

The poll by Redford and Wilton Strategies of 1,000 Scottish adults found that 39 per cent would be less likely to support the country’s separation from the rest of the UK if it would then be required to replace the pound with the European currency."

[Jack]

Can I just ask: in a modern world where the majority of transactions are done using cards and contactless payment methods: what’s the big deal with using the euro?

I personally couldn’t give a ****, and I’d rather see us use the euro if it meant an easier transition to rejoining the EU.

My parents live in Berwickshire and do their weekly shops in Berwick, but they are in the same boat. Now the borders has always been staunchly pro union, and it’s understandable particularly in the East where the biggest town locally is over the Border, but I wonder if the SNP came and said actually we would adopt the euro if it would ease the issue for lots of people.

I personally don't see any reason we shouldn't adopt the euro as soon as possible. The £ is tanking anyway so the sooner we're out of it the better.

A solution could be to use both the £ and € during a transition period. Phase in the euro for a couple of years, phase out the £ over a couple of years. Sorted.

A lot of the larger shopping chains already have the ability to take multiple currencies at the till and in many countries around the world even smaller shops can can do. It can't be too difficult.

[Stairway 2 7]

I personally don't see any reason we shouldn't adopt the euro as soon as possible. The £ is tanking anyway so the sooner we're out of it the better.

A solution could be to use both the £ and € during a transition period. Phase in the euro for a couple of years, phase out the £ over a couple of years. Sorted.

A lot of the larger shopping chains already have the ability to take multiple currencies at the till and in many countries around the world even smaller shops can can do. It can't be too difficult.

It's the euro that is absolutely tanking, its on par with the dollar for the first time ever. The pound is flying against the euro, its estimated it will soon be the highest its been against the euro in 8 years. Good for the summer holidays

[Jones28]

There is one reason and one reason only why the SNP won't endorse the Euro.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19499617.poll-independence-support-fall-scotland-set-adopt-euro/

"Almost 40 per cent of Scots are less likely to back independence if separation plans appeared on course for the country adopting the euro currency, a new poll has revealed.

The poll by Redford and Wilton Strategies of 1,000 Scottish adults found that 39 per cent would be less likely to support the country’s separation from the rest of the UK if it would then be required to replace the pound with the European currency."

I’ve never seen that before, thanks.

I personally wouldn’t care if we joined the Euro. Currency is such a chicken **** issue.

[Zambernardi1875]

I personally don't see any reason we shouldn't adopt the euro as soon as possible. The £ is tanking anyway so the sooner we're out of it the better.

A solution could be to use both the £ and € during a transition period. Phase in the euro for a couple of years, phase out the £ over a couple of years. Sorted.

A lot of the larger shopping chains already have the ability to take multiple currencies at the till and in many countries around the world even smaller shops can can do. It can't be too difficult.

Great idea, and as most transactions are online nowadays the currency issue isn’t really a big deal

[ronaldo7]

Will the no side provide a similar roadmap to how we get out of the post Brexit managed decline we’re in? You only want to talk about the difficulties of independence, of which there are many, but avoid at all costs talking about the difficulties that come with a second no vote.

Good question. It's a pity you never get an answer to a reasonable question.

[Moulin Yarns]

You seem obsessed with Brexit. I suppose when you voted for a party that supported it, it's expected.

You're going round in circles again. 🙈

Does anyone know the phrase emotional vampire?

[James310]

Does anyone know the phrase emotional vampire?

You used this line a few years ago when making little personal digs at me, why are you using it again?

You send me random YouTube videos as well, you never explained what that was about as well.

Why do you feel the need to do this all the time?

I can start making silly schoolboy jokes about you if you like as well? Shall we do that?

[Ozyhibby]

It's the euro that is absolutely tanking, its on par with the dollar for the first time ever. The pound is flying against the euro, its estimated it will soon be the highest its been against the euro in 8 years. Good for the summer holidays

Fresh from claiming Scotland has to import energy, your now claiming the pound is flying against the Euro?[emoji23]


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[James310]

I’ve never seen that before, thanks.

I personally wouldn’t care if we joined the Euro. Currency is such a chicken **** issue.

Currency is a lot more than what money you spend in the shops. Having your own currency and Central Bank gives you significant control over the economy and allows you the ability to do things like quantative easing and increase/decreasing interest rates as required.

Adoption of the Euro is not a vote winner now hence why you won't see anyone from the SNP endorse it, but if Scotland were to become Independent then I think it would adopt the Euro as the main barrier of Independence has already been achieved.

[Ozyhibby]

Currency is a lot more than what money you spend in the shops. Having your own currency and Central Bank gives you significant control over the economy and allows you the ability to do things like quantative easing and increase/decreasing interest rates as required.

Adoption of the Euro is not a vote winner now hence why you won't see anyone from the SNP endorse it, but if Scotland were to become Independent then I think it would adopt the Euro as the main barrier of Independence has already been achieved.

I think when the Currency paper is released it will show that the plan is to have a Scottish pound backed by a Scottish central bank which intends to peg the Scottish pound to sterling for an extended transition period.
This allows time for all contracts within Scotland to transfer to the Scottish pound seamlessly. Eventually it will be allowed to float. As the only net exporter in the UK the problem will be in keeping it from strengthening too much compared to the pound.
I don’t think there will be any rush to join the euro. There will need to be a prolonged settling in period for the new currency first and it may be that we never intend to join. That will be for a referendum.
Personally wouldn’t mind but it’s no problem if we don’t.


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[ronaldo7]

It's the euro that is absolutely tanking, its on par with the dollar for the first time ever. The pound is flying against the euro, its estimated it will soon be the highest its been against the euro in 8 years. Good for the summer holidays

It depends on which direction your flying in. If you go back 40 years, you'll find that the euro used to sit at 1.81 to the pound, its now 1.19. A few months on the upward trajectory isn't really, flying.

The dollar against the euro in the same timescale has remained stable as 1982 levels

Small uplifts for summer holidays are great for families, but we've seen a managed decline of the pound to euro over the years.

[Stairway 2 7]

Fresh from claiming Scotland has to import energy, your now claiming the pound is flying against the Euro?[emoji23]


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It's massively a net exporter but it imports alot of gas its stupid to say it doesn't. The pound has went from 1.16 to 1.19 in a month, the highest in 6 years will be broken soon. Its no where near 20 years ago. I was replying to someone who is saying the pound was tanking to the euro, its clearly the opposite.

Gas worries are going to pummel the euro this year. The dollar was worth 0.8 euro 12 months ago its now worth 1. Money markets don't work on what happened 20 year ago, just the years ahead and the euro is tanking

[Ozyhibby]

It's massively a net exporter but it imports alot of gas its stupid to say it doesn't. The pound has went from 1.16 to 1.19 in a month, the highest in 6 years will be broken soon. Its no where near 20 years ago. I was replying to someone who is saying the pound was tanking to the euro, its clearly the opposite.

Gas worries are going to pummel the euro this year. The dollar was worth 0.8 euro 12 months ago its now worth 1. Money markets don't work on what happened 20 year ago, just the years ahead and the euro is tanking

But not against the pound it’s not.


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[Stairway 2 7]

But not against the pound it’s not.


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.89 to .84 in just over a month is a big difference to many companies, but more worrying is the next 12 months. The euro is expected to go into recession soon and the euro will be effected by that. The war and Russian gas problems are going to effect them massively

[Ozyhibby]

.89 to .84 in just over a month is a big difference to many companies, but more worrying is the next 12 months. The euro is expected to go into recession soon and the euro will be effected by that. The war and Russian gas problems are going to effect them massively

While the predictions for the UK economy are downright rosey.[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

While the predictions for the UK economy are downright rosey.[emoji23]


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I'm just saying what the market is predicting for the euro and that is further drops. I was replying to someone who said that the pound is tanking against the Euro it isn't its rising

[Jones28]

Currency is a lot more than what money you spend in the shops. Having your own currency and Central Bank gives you significant control over the economy and allows you the ability to do things like quantative easing and increase/decreasing interest rates as required.

Adoption of the Euro is not a vote winner now hence why you won't see anyone from the SNP endorse it, but if Scotland were to become Independent then I think it would adopt the Euro as the main barrier of Independence has already been achieved.

I think on your second point if they were to do that they effectively guarantee their post referendum fade in to obscurity. It’s what I think will happen but if they were to betray their currency pledge they would rubber stamp it.

[Jack]

I'm just saying what the market is predicting for the euro and that is further drops. I was replying to someone who said that the pound is tanking against the Euro it isn't its rising

I just said the £ was tanking, I didn't specify which currency.

FT last month:
Last week’s interest rate rise by the Bank of England has provided some temporary respite to sterling. But the pound is still 10 per cent weaker against the US dollar compared with its January peak, and 3 per cent weaker against the euro.

Guardian in May:
Ominously, though, in recent weeks the pound has been weak not just against the US dollar but against the euro and other currencies such as the Australian dollar.

And, as we are likely to be in recession deeper and longer than other comparator countries its not looking good for the future.

[Keith_M]

Think they are back to arguing that they won’t let us in.[emoji849]


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He/She does go round in circles a bit.

[Jack]

He/She does go round in circles a bit.

I'm just surprised they find the time to keep all these plates spinning 😉

[grunt]

Who the #### would buy a yellow car?
Have a word 😜
:taxi

:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

I just said the £ was tanking, I didn't specify which currency.

FT last month:
Last week’s interest rate rise by the Bank of England has provided some temporary respite to sterling. But the pound is still 10 per cent weaker against the US dollar compared with its January peak, and 3 per cent weaker against the euro.

Guardian in May:
Ominously, though, in recent weeks the pound has been weak not just against the US dollar but against the euro and other currencies such as the Australian dollar.

And, as we are likely to be in recession deeper and longer than other comparator countries its not looking good for the future.

The conversation was about us changing to the euro and you gave the week pound as demonstration. Its rising fast in the last month against the euro and is expected to for the next year.

If anyone thinks that euro will do better than the pound then what you should do is convert all your available pounds to euros, you'll make a mint when you convert back.

We also aren't expected to go into derp recession, Germany and euro zone are though. Germany should bounce higher though

[Keith_M]

It's amazing how many times over the years I've read that Germany is in in financial trouble, or likely to into a deep recession, but I've yet to see it happen.

There have been a number of fluctuations in the German economy over the last couple of decades but it invariably comes back stronger than ever.

I honestly don't think most people realise how resilient the German economy is compared to countries like the UK, mainly due to it being much more diverse.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's amazing how many times over the years I've read that Germany is in in financial trouble, or likely to into a deep recession, but I've yet to see it happen.

There have been a number of fluctuations in the German economy over the last couple of decades but it invariably comes back stronger than ever.

I honestly don't think most people realise how resilient the German economy is compared to countries like the UK, mainly due to it being much more diverse.

Everything is dependent on what Russia does really they were crazy to bank on it after crimea

Germant like the rest of us was just in a deep recession. In future its seen as a given they will have a recession coming up but they should come out of it better than the uk.

Uk might get a depression but the central estimate it small growth the next few years, although that's worse than all the rest of g7 countries
2606326064

[Hibrandenburg]

It's amazing how many times over the years I've read that Germany is in in financial trouble, or likely to into a deep recession, but I've yet to see it happen.

There have been a number of fluctuations in the German economy over the last couple of decades but it invariably comes back stronger than ever.

I honestly don't think most people realise how resilient the German economy is compared to countries like the UK, mainly due to it being much more diverse.

Their works council and trade union system is the driving force behind their success. Employees actually have a say in how companies are run and they engage and relate far better to their employers than in many other countries. Many football teams in Germany have their roots in large industry because of the bond between employer and employee.

[Ozyhibby]

Their works council and trade union system is the driving force behind their success. Employees actually have a say in how companies are run and they engage and relate far better to their employers than in many other countries. Many football teams in Germany have their roots in large industry because of the bond between employer and employee.

That’s something I’d like to see happen in an Indy Scotland.


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[Keith_M]

Everything is dependent on what Russia does really they were crazy to bank on it after crimea

Germant like the rest of us was just in a deep recession. In future its seen as a given they will have a recession coming up but they should come out of it better than the uk.

Uk might get a depression but the central estimate it small growth the next few years, although that's worse than all the rest of g7 countries
2606326064



Yeah the reliance on Russian gas via Nordstream is looking a bit stupid now.

The German Kanzler of the time, Gerhard Schröder, has been a big fan of Putin and, up until recently, refused to criticise the invasion of the Ukraine.

Makes you wonder just how much money he's been paid.

[Keith_M]

That’s something I’d like to see happen in an Indy Scotland.


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Germany should invade Scotland, make us the 17th Bundesland. Then we can declare independence from them and retain our EU membership.


Aw come on, I've heard worse plans than this...

....anybody want to buy a bridge to Northern Ireland?

:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Germany should invade Scotland, make us the 17th Bundesland. Then we can declare independence from them and retain our EU membership.


Aw come on, I've heard worse plans than this...

....anybody want to buy a bridge to Northern Ireland?

:greengrin

Sounds like a plan to be honest :greengrin

[He's here!]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/F065/production/_126114516_sundaymail-july31.png

[Berwickhibby]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/F065/production/_126114516_sundaymail-july31.png

Shock Horror….another sex pest bring protected by his party

[grunt]

Sunday Mail smear headline


Shock Horror….another sex pest bring protected by his party

Wonder why the Sunday Mail has resurrected this story from FIVE years ago? A story about a misconduct probe which found no crimes were committed?

I guess it makes a good headline and allows the anti-SNP brigade to have something else to get angry about.

https://archive.ph/RNkN1

https://tfn.scot/news/misconduct-probe-at-scottish-youth-parliament-ends

[He's here!]

Wonder why the Sunday Mail has resurrected this story from FIVE years ago? A story about a misconduct probe which found no crimes were committed?

I guess it makes a good headline and allows the anti-SNP brigade to have something else to get angry about.

https://archive.ph/RNkN1

https://tfn.scot/news/misconduct-probe-at-scottish-youth-parliament-ends

You seem to have made up a quote from me.

[James310]

Wonder why the Sunday Mail has resurrected this story from FIVE years ago? A story about a misconduct probe which found no crimes were committed?

I guess it makes a good headline and allows the anti-SNP brigade to have something else to get angry about.

https://archive.ph/RNkN1

https://tfn.scot/news/misconduct-probe-at-scottish-youth-parliament-ends

If this story was about a Tory councilor who had a history of sexual impropriety would your first reaction be why is the newspaper digging up an old story to make the Tory's look bad? Yet that's what you seem to be doing here, unless I am mistaken?

Do you know the details?

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1553714866933858305?t=J5A0oi3dkPDc5BafDtgWGQ&s=19


NEW:

The SNP were warned their former North Lanarkshire Council leader, Jordan Linden, was "not fit" to represent the party.
Linden resigned this week after it was alleged that he sent explicit pictures to a 14-year-old boy and allegedly sexually assaulted a teenager in a hotel.