SNP are lying b******s as well !

[grunt]

a scotland fit for the future


we delivered the £1.35 billion marvel on the forth – the queensferry crossing – under budget.
we doubled the walking and cycling budget, increased to just over £100 million in 2020/21 – and we have committed to continuing funding at the record level for the next five years.
we scrapped bridge tolls on the forth and tay crossings – saving individual commuters around £3,000 to date.
over £9 billion invested in our rail infrastructure since 2007.
we delivered the borders railway, the longest new domestic railway to be built in britain in over 100 years.
the first section of our £3 billion project to dual the a9 from perth to invernesshas been completed.
the £745 million aberdeen bypass opened in february 2019, producing savings in journey times and reductions in hgv traffic through aberdeen.
we established a £50 million town centre fund to enable local authorities to regenerate scotland’s town centres.
we have published an action plan to decarbonise scotland’s railway by 2035.
we’ve invested £16.5 million in the net zero technology centre to focus on emissions reduction.

[grunt]

a greener scotland




we were the first country in the uk to declare a climate emergency and have since passed legislation for the world’s most ambitious emissions reduction targets.
we have already halved our greenhouse gases emissions since 1990 – statistically, we’re second only to sweden in western europe for emissions reductions.
we are world renowned for having underpinned our net zero targets with a legislative commitment to a just transition – ensuring no one is left behind.
we’ve appointed a minister for just transition.
we have established the £62 million energy transition fund.
we have been active on the world stage, leading the edinburgh process on biodiversity and publishing the edinburgh declaration calling for increased action to tackle biodiversity loss.
since 2012, we have funded the restoration of over 25,000 hectares of degraded scottish peatland.
no fracking or other onshore unconventional oil and gas activity can take place in scotland.
we’ve passed legislation to establish an ambitious deposit return scheme for scotland – reducing waste and tackling greenhouse gas emissions.
in 2019-20, we planted 11,050 hectares of new woodland – exceeding our annual 10,000 hectares target in the climate change plan.
around 80% of all new woodland creation across the uk is in scotland – in 2019/2020 alone, we’ve planted over 22 million new trees.
we have established the world first climate justice fund, providing funding for community climate projects in malawi, zambia and rwanda.
we’ve announced pilot projects to offer free bicycles for school-age children who cannot afford one.



There's more, but you get the picture.

[James310]

Take your pick

I am specifically talking about the 8 years of Nicola Sturgeon as FM seeing as tomorrow she becomes the longest ever serving FM.

Most of the stuff on your list was in place before she started as FM and you could again argue things like "free" tuition and prescriptions etc. (nothing is free we pay taxes for it) is another example of devolution working, allowing Scotland to make different choices and have the funding to do so.

[archie]

Take your pick
Bit cheeky - many of these predate the SNP administration and period poverty policies arose from the campaigning of Monica Lennon.

[Stairway 2 7]

The opposition have been useless yes, and I am sure she is safe in her job until she decides she wants to quit. But her list of 'achievments' are not exactly overwhelming for 8 years at the top. Dare I suggest Alex Salmond delivered far more. (A referendum for one)

Salmond definitely more. Getting referendum, free tuition, free prescriptions

[Just Alf]

Bit cheeky - many of these predate the SNP administration and period poverty policies arose from the campaigning of Monica Lennon.This one actually shows grown up politics... so often some politicians seem completely unable to even grudgingly support a good policy if put forward by someone from the opposition.

[ronaldo7]

Bit cheeky - many of these predate the SNP administration and period poverty policies arose from the campaigning of Monica Lennon.

I remember a British labour politician in Scotland demanding we means test most of the stuff we continue to get from the SNP/Green government. If she'd have had her way, we'd be just like England, paying for tuition, and prescription charges to name but two.

Blis just don't want Scotland to prosper.

[ronaldo7]

a greener scotland



There's more, but you get the picture.

If only the Tories could put up their list of achievements.😂

[James310]

I remember a British labour politician in Scotland demanding we means test most of the stuff we continue to get from the SNP/Green government. If she'd have had her way, we'd be just like England, paying for tuition, and prescription charges to name but two.

Blis just don't want Scotland to prosper.

90% of prescriptions are free in England. You could argue why should people who can afford it not pay for it. Isn't it great Scotland can make different choices and pay for them under the current financial settlement, free prescriptions, free tuition, free bikes and laptops, free care, free bus travel etc. Devolution really working as it should be.

[Stairway 2 7]

90% of prescriptions are free in England. You could argue why should people who can afford it not pay for it. Isn't it great Scotland can make different choices and pay for them under the current financial settlement, free prescriptions, free tuition, free bikes and laptops, free care, free bus travel etc. Devolution really working as it should be.

90% of prescriptions given are free, mostly because they were for over 60s. 40% of English are eligible to pay. How many don't bother because 1 item is almost a tenner a shot. My sister in law is a nurse down south and sometimes doesn't get her omeprozole because the price. My mum gives her her unused one, which they probably both know you shouldn't. But worked two years in covid wards so think most Scots tax payers wouldn't mind

[ronaldo7]

90% of prescriptions are free in England. You could argue why should people who can afford it not pay for it. Isn't it great Scotland can make different choices and pay for them under the current financial settlement, free prescriptions, free tuition, free bikes and laptops, free care, free bus travel etc. Devolution really working as it should be.

Just imagine what we could do with powers over immigration, energy policy, defence policy, full control over social security, drugs policy, the constitution, broadcasting, the right to choose what we do here in Scotland, rather than having someone else doing it for us.

[ronaldo7]

90% of prescriptions given are free, mostly because they were for over 60s. 40% of English are eligible to pay. How many don't bother because 1 item is almost a tenner a shot. My sister in law is a nurse down south and sometimes doesn't get her omeprozole because the price. My mum gives her her unused one, which they probably both know you shouldn't. But worked two years in covid wards so think most Scots tax payers wouldn't mind

Really sorry to read this. How many more are like this in England? Thousands going without just so long as the "I'm alright Jack's" and those who benefit/vote for them get to stay in power.

[greenginger]

a greener scotland



There's more, but you get the picture.

Sure we get the picture , but where is all the money coming from that funds this spending extravaganza.

In England £ 13,166 per head of population is spent , in Scotland £14,842 per head is the figure.
Thats 12.5% more , or £ 9.22 billion more spent every year in Scotland, than an average per head would produce ( the Barnet Formula )

Doe anyone think spending would continue at the same level in an independent Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Sure we get the picture , but where is all the money coming from that funds this spending extravaganza.

In England £ 13,166 per head of population is spent , in Scotland £14,842 per head is the figure.
Thats 12.5% more , or £ 9.22 billion more spent every year in Scotland, than an average per head would produce ( the Barnet Formula )

Doe anyone think spending would continue at the same level in an independent Scotland.

What an ambition for Scotland, begging of our neighbour for money.[emoji849]


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[James310]

What an ambition for Scotland, begging of our neighbour for money.[emoji849]


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Redistribution of money across the country is not begging. If you consider yourself left of centre then surely redistribution of wealth to those that need it is a good thing.

In an Indy Scotland would you class the Outer Hebrides as begging for money as they would be sharing and benefiting from the wealth and resources created by the central belt.

[grunt]

Sure we get the picture , but where is all the money coming from that funds this spending extravaganza.
How much have Scotland's taxpayers paid towards the Elizabeth line? Or HS2?

[James310]

How much have Scotland's taxpayers paid towards the Elizabeth line? Or HS2?

https://fullfact.org/online/hs2-scotland/


Probably not as much as you think it is. It's funded wholly by the UK Government, of course which we pay some taxes to. But thanks to Barnett any spending on things like HS2 means Scotland gets more money. In effect, all money spent by Scotland on HS2 is returned through the Barnett formula.

"So for every £1 spent on HS2, Scotland receives 9.2p more funding (because HS2 is deemed to benefit England and Wales for the purpose of Barnett calculations and Scotland’s population as a percentage of England and Wales is about 9.2%). (Technically Barnett funding is not worked out on the spending on individual projects, but the change in spending at a departmental level, but this is, in effect, what happens)."

And believe it or not there are some things where all the expenditure is in Scotland but England gets some of the cost allocated to it.

[Ozyhibby]

Redistribution of money across the country is not begging. If you consider yourself left of centre then surely redistribution of wealth to those that need it is a good thing.

In an Indy Scotland would you class the Outer Hebrides as begging for money as they would be sharing and benefiting from the wealth and resources created by the central belt.

Is the current model the only way to run Scotland? Look at the difference between Scotland and Ireland economies now. Every year the gap grows bigger. How long do you want Scotland to be the poor cousins?

Ireland’s economy:-
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/f74da525aadc20acef178e6723489e13.jpg

And now look at Scotland’s:-
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/2e00270c6c747c92aa4d60305966651b.jpg

That is not a small gap.

Public spending in Scotland is only going one way with the Tories in London.
Don’t tell me there isn’t another way.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Sure we get the picture , but where is all the money coming from that funds this spending extravaganza.

In England £ 13,166 per head of population is spent , in Scotland £14,842 per head is the figure.
Thats 12.5% more , or £ 9.22 billion more spent every year in Scotland, than an average per head would produce ( the Barnet Formula )

Doe anyone think spending would continue at the same level in an independent Scotland.

If only England spent more there might be less poverty in England 🤔

[ronaldo7]

https://fullfact.org/online/hs2-scotland/


Probably not as much as you think it is. It's funded wholly by the UK Government, of course which we pay some taxes to. But thanks to Barnett any spending on things like HS2 means Scotland gets more money. In effect, all money spent by Scotland on HS2 is returned through the Barnett formula.

"So for every £1 spent on HS2, Scotland receives 9.2p more funding (because HS2 is deemed to benefit England and Wales for the purpose of Barnett calculations and Scotland’s population as a percentage of England and Wales is about 9.2%). (Technically Barnett funding is not worked out on the spending on individual projects, but the change in spending at a departmental level, but this is, in effect, what happens)."

And believe it or not there are some things where all the expenditure is in Scotland but England gets some of the cost allocated to it.

How do the people of Wales benefit from HS2?

Since you're down the rabbit hole fighting the union case against Scotland, HS2 is partially paid for by welsh people, but doesn't go anywhere near their country.

Union dividend in action.

[James310]

Is the current model the only way to run Scotland? Look at the difference between Scotland and Ireland economies now. Every year the gap grows bigger. How long do you want Scotland to be the poor cousins?

Ireland’s economy:-
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/f74da525aadc20acef178e6723489e13.jpg

And now look at Scotland’s:-
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/2e00270c6c747c92aa4d60305966651b.jpg

That is not a small gap.

Public spending in Scotland is only going one way with the Tories in London.
Don’t tell me there isn’t another way.


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There is always another way, but is it the right way?

I think we have done Ireland to death on here, has good points and bad points.

[Ozyhibby]

There is always another way, but is it the right way?

I think we have done Ireland to death on here, has good points and bad points.

Guess it depends on whether you want Scotland to be wealthier or not. I can’t see much of a downside to doubling our GDP.


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[James310]

Guess it depends on whether you want Scotland to be wealthier or not. I can’t see much of a downside to doubling our GDP.


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If only there was a plan that said Scotland is here in 2022 and to be like Ireland/Denmark/Norway (delete as appropriate) then we need to do X, Y and Z and it will take X number of years.

Until then it's a useless slogan. I think it was Mark Blythe the economic adviser to the SNP who ridiculed the whole lets be like Denmark etc. slogan.

"The problem that I’ve seen so far is the complete lack of specificity as to ‘here is what the Scottish business model is now, here is where we want to be, this is how we’re going to get from here to here by doing this’,” he said in an online interview.

“Instead of that what we’ve got is ‘Denmark is awesome, we should be like Denmark, if we were independent we would be Denmark’. No, you wouldn’t be Denmark. Denmark took 600 years to become Denmark."

[Ozyhibby]

If only there was a plan that said Scotland is here in 2022 and to be like Ireland/Denmark/Norway (delete as appropriate) then we need to do X, Y and Z and it will take X number of years.

Until then it's a useless slogan. I think it was Mark Blythe the economic adviser to the SNP who ridiculed the whole lets be like Denmark etc. slogan.

"The problem that I’ve seen so far is the complete lack of specificity as to ‘here is what the Scottish business model is now, here is where we want to be, this is how we’re going to get from here to here by doing this’,” he said in an online interview.

“Instead of that what we’ve got is ‘Denmark is awesome, we should be like Denmark, if we were independent we would be Denmark’. No, you wouldn’t be Denmark. Denmark took 600 years to become Denmark."

600 years.[emoji23]
Both countries were poorer than Scotland when I was a kid. Scotland is more than capable of matching either of them without copying either model. What we definitely can’t do is match them while operating as part of the UK.
You say there should be a plan? That’s the one thing that is missing right now within the UK. There is zero plan at all to improve Scotland’s economy. None. Not even a pretend plan. They don’t care one little bit so don’t even bother to kid on there is a plan. We are just expected to just keep trundling along.
You want the SNP to produce a plan for powers they don’t have but are just as happy to have zero plan from London when they have all the levers over the economy?


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[James310]

600 years.[emoji23]
Both countries were poorer than Scotland when I was a kid. Scotland is more than capable of matching either of them without copying either model. What we definitely can’t do is match them while operating as part of the UK.
You say there should be a plan? That’s the one thing that is missing right now within the UK. There is zero plan at all to improve Scotland’s economy. None. Not even a pretend plan. They don’t care one little bit so don’t even bother to kid on there is a plan. We are just expected to just keep trundling along.
You want the SNP to produce a plan for powers they don’t have but are just as happy to have zero plan from London when they have all the levers over the economy?


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Isn't the whole point of Independence to produce a plan for the powers they don't have and how they would use them, that's what the White Paper was?

[Ozyhibby]

Isn't the whole point of Independence to produce a plan for the powers they don't have and how they would use them, that's what the White Paper was?

I’m sure there will be but I’m also sure it will be up for change every five years of the election cycle.
What I’m also sure of just now is that Scotland is massively underperforming and Labour and the Tories seem to be just fine with that and actually celebrate it every year when GERS is published.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/0fc7eb5d14afcb14af95f5cb02b99b1f.jpg

Here is Denmark’s economy. Totally different from Irelands economy, showing that there is no set way of doing things. We could copy either or do our own thing.
What they do have in common is that they are both smashing Scotland out the park.


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[James310]

I’m sure there will be but I’m also sure it will be up for change every five years of the election cycle.
What I’m also sure of just now is that Scotland is massively underperforming and Labour and the Tories seem to be just fine with that and actually celebrate it every year when GERS is published.


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A few posts back I just read a huge list of all the successful things that are being done in Scotland, free this and free that and everything else that's wonderful just now. It's confusing if we are doing really well or really bad.

[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220524/0fc7eb5d14afcb14af95f5cb02b99b1f.jpg

Here is Denmark’s economy. Totally different from Irelands economy, showing that there is no set way of doing things. We could copy either or do our own thing.
What they do have in common is that they are both smashing Scotland out the park.


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We could yes, nobody is saying we can't.

But as I say just saying we can be Ireland/Norway/Denmark is all good and well, but it's meaningless.

Denmark for example have really high income tax rate, would people in Scotland be willing to pay significantly more tax to be like Denmark? Some will some won't.

[Ozyhibby]

We could yes, nobody is saying we can't.

But as I say just saying we can be Ireland/Norway/Denmark is all good and well, but it's meaningless.

Denmark for example have really high income tax rate, would people in Scotland be willing to pay significantly more tax to be like Denmark? Some will some won't.

I think they might if they were earning the money the Danes are?


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[Ozyhibby]

A few posts back I just read a huge list of all the successful things that are being done in Scotland, free this and free that and everything else that's wonderful just now. It's confusing if we are doing really well or really bad.

We are doing as well as we can with the tools we have. We would like more tools though.


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[James310]

I think they might if they were earning the money the Danes are?


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Maybe, but the changes you are suggesting are quite radical and the SNP are not exactly known for radical change. Their policy for Indy up to now is very much don't rock the boat, keep things as close to they are today, for example, keep the pound, stay in NATO, join the EU, keep the Queen even.

And yes maybe 5 or 10 years after Indy a party may emerge that offers this but again it would be radical and the people of Scotland are actually pretty conservative (with a small c!)

[greenginger]

What an ambition for Scotland, begging of our neighbour for money.[emoji849]


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But not afraid to boast about all the benefits Scotland gets from additional spending enabled by the Barnet Formula.

There’s no begging involved.

[James310]

On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

And of course Ireland has no NHS to fund.

[Smartie]

On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

I can see the merit in either approach... and would be perfectly comfortable with either of the two, just as long as the decision to go with either approach was made in Edinburgh, for the benefit of the Scottish people as a whole and with the absolute accountability for making a success of it.

The direction of travel within this union is not good, even if once served us well.

[Ozyhibby]

On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

And of course Ireland has no NHS to fund.

Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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[Smartie]

Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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It would be fair to say that it doesn't fund it anywhere near as well as the UK.

Whether the population as a whole is any worse off for that is an entirely different story...

[James310]

Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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Not to the tune of £150BN+ a year it doesn't. It's about 10% of that.

[degenerated]

It would be fair to say that it doesn't fund it anywhere near as well as the UK.

Whether the population as a whole is any worse off for that is an entirely different story...We could mirror some of the other small countries in Europe that do spend similar amounts on healthcare, like Belgium, Holland and Denmark.

Norway also do but not a great example as unlike Scotland they managed to use their oil to create a fund for these sort of things rather than to finance the infrastructure of a neighbouring countries capital city.

[James310]

I would say it’s about 49% but I don’t suppose that matters just now as no campaign is underway.


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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1715d72c-dbab-11ec-bcbd-e35b52e0266c?shareToken=e71ac8a3c546f6d3136236e83d 39b4d



"Nicola Sturgeon has failed to achieve the SNP’s main objective of boosting support for Scottish independence over her record seven years as first minister, a poll has found.

Having occupied Bute House for a total of seven years, six months and five days, Sturgeon has overtaken her predecessor Alex Salmond — who quit after the 2014 independence referendum — to become the longest-serving first minister today. However, research by YouGov for The Times shows that voters are no more inclined to break up the UK in 2022 than they were when Sturgeon came into office.

When “don’t knows” are excluded from the latest poll, 55 per cent continue to back the Union while 45 per cent favour Scottish independence — the same result as the 2014 referendum."


Actually only 38% of people were on the day the poll was asked willing to say they would vote for Independence.

[grunt]

"Nicola Sturgeon has failed to achieve the SNP’s main objective of boosting support for Scottish independence over her record seven years as first minister, a poll has found.

The Times is a Tory right wing unionist rag. I don't believe a word they say.

[ronaldo7]

Does Glasgow have the UK’s highest violent crime rate? Is there a source for that?


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I've tried to see a source which validated that claim, but it seems to be bringing up cities in England more often than not.

In other news HS2 doesn't go to Wales.

[James310]

The Times is a Tory right wing unionist rag. I don't believe a word they say.

It's The Times reporting a poll, not The Times saying it themselves.

[ronaldo7]

That was the Smith Commission that delivered that, yes she enacted the policy but you could argue it's a success of devolution. Allowing Scotland to make different choices and having the funds to do so.

Education and closing the attainment gap was what she wanted judged on but I think that was harder than she probably thought it would be.

When you say it's a success of devolution. Do you mean the devolution we were given in 1999, or the devolution as it stands now?

We know it's evolved over the last 20 years but it seems to be going into reverse, with tory ministers from London dabbling in devolved areas of responsibility, and taking control from Scottish ministers.

Lord hope of craighead, former first deputy of the Supreme Court, speaking on the internal market bill.

"The devolved powers are rendered worthless by this new system. UK ministers are given powers to do things which contravene the devolution settlements without consultation let alone consent".

In other words, we're not getting more powers, the Tories are taking them away.

[James310]

I've tried to see a source which validated that claim, but it seems to be bringing up cities in England more often than not.

In other news HS2 doesn't go to Wales.

Not sure how old this is but backs it up, think it's about a year old.

https://www.beltramiandcompany.co.uk/news/criminal-defence/glasgow-is-uks-least-peaceful-urban-area

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/over-1100-empty-scottish-homes-brought-back-into-use-as-social-and-affordable-housing-last-year


Back to the success of the Scottish Government (at least partially)

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe we should compare the tenure of the longest serving first minister with the longest serving prime minister?

Guess who? 🙄

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe we should compare the tenure of the longest serving first minister with the longest serving prime minister?

Guess who? 🙄

Walpole? :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

Walpole? :dunno:

Yes, but he wasn't officially titled as prime minister.

The first prime minister of the UK as it is currently was Bonar Law.


Maybe qualify it to longest serving prime minister for the party with the most votes.

[James310]

Yes, but he wasn't officially titled as prime minister.

The first prime minister of the UK as it is currently was Bonar Law.


Maybe qualify it to longest serving prime minister for the party with the most votes.

Maybe it's me, what point are you making here?

[grunt]

It's The Times reporting a poll, not The Times saying it themselves.You're surely not as naive as all that?

[James310]

When you say it's a success of devolution. Do you mean the devolution we were given in 1999, or the devolution as it stands now?

We know it's evolved over the last 20 years but it seems to be going into reverse, with tory ministers from London dabbling in devolved areas of responsibility, and taking control from Scottish ministers.

Lord hope of craighead, former first deputy of the Supreme Court, speaking on the internal market bill.

"The devolved powers are rendered worthless by this new system. UK ministers are given powers to do things which contravene the devolution settlements without consultation let alone consent".

In other words, we're not getting more powers, the Tories are taking them away.

I think Scotland has more powers now than it ever has, allowing to make the changes to the Social security system you applauded. Do you have any specific examples of powers being taken away from the Scottish Parliament? Or were they powers that Brussels had that have now gone to Westminster?

[James310]

You're surely not as naive as all that?

So are you saying the poll is rigged? The people they asked were lying or the figure for Yes was higher but they deliberately made it lower than it really was?

I am not sure what you mean?

If a YouGov poll came out showing support for Independence was higher would you believe that poll? Why?

[ronaldo7]

I think Scotland has more powers now than it ever has, allowing to make the changes to the Social security system you applauded. Do you have any specific examples of powers being taken away from the Scottish Parliament? Or were they powers that Brussels had that have now gone to Westminster?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/&ved=2ahUKEwi7kbeQofr3AhXwgf0HHaMKBNYQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1V6iQoYYtSA9JUM7bRRIQ9

[James310]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/&ved=2ahUKEwi7kbeQofr3AhXwgf0HHaMKBNYQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1V6iQoYYtSA9JUM7bRRIQ9

That's basically a SNP press release.

Lots of could do this, could do that.

Is there one power that the Scottish Parliament had before but now doesn't have?

[Ozyhibby]

That's basically a SNP press release.

Lots of could do this, could do that.

Is there one power that the Scottish Parliament had before but now doesn't have?

The Scottish parliament used to have full control of transport infrastructure and now it doesn’t.


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[James310]

The Scottish parliament used to have full control of transport infrastructure and now it doesn’t.


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Could not see that in the Government papers and struggling to see anything about this. If true then it's wrong and the power should be handed back to the Scottish Parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

Could not see that in the Government papers and struggling to see anything about this. If true then it's wrong and the power should be handed back to the Scottish Parliament.

It’s not going to be though.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Could not see that in the Government papers and struggling to see anything about this. If true then it's wrong and the power should be handed back to the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,crossborder-rail-a1-and-a75-improvements-backed-by-longawaited-uk-transport-review


Westminster decision to upgrade roads which are the responsibility of transport Scotland???


Even though it will benefit Scotland it is a devolved power which has been taken back by Westminster!

[James310]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,crossborder-rail-a1-and-a75-improvements-backed-by-longawaited-uk-transport-review


Westminster decision to upgrade roads which are the responsibility of transport Scotland???


Even though it will benefit Scotland it is a devolved power which has been taken back by Westminster!

Not really, the Scottish Government can still do what it wants. I am sure the people who use that road every day are delighted the UK Government is doing it.

It's not really a power that was held but has been taken away, it's different to that.

I don't share the outrage the UK Government is spending money in the UK to improve the lives of people in the UK.

[Berwickhibby]

Not really, the Scottish Government can still do what it wants. I am sure the people who use that road every day are delighted the UK Government is doing it.

It's not really a power that was held but has been taken away, it's different to that.

I don't share the outrage the UK Government is spending money in the UK to improve the lives of people in the UK.

Probably a good thing as let’s be honest the track record for transport has been less than acceptable

Planes … Prestwick ….Shambles
Boats ……Ferries……….Shambles
Trains…….Scotrail……..Shambles

[Moulin Yarns]

Not really, the Scottish Government can still do what it wants. I am sure the people who use that road every day are delighted the UK Government is doing it.

It's not really a power that was held but has been taken away, it's different to that.

I don't share the outrage the UK Government is spending money in the UK to improve the lives of people in the UK.

You claimed that you couldn't find any information on devolved powers being taken back by Westminster, that's just one example.


Here is a longer list


https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/

[Moulin Yarns]

Probably a good thing as let’s be honest the track record for transport has been less than acceptable

Planes … Prestwick ….Shambles
Boats ……Ferries……….Shambles
Trains…….Scotrail……..Shambles

Cars..... Queensferry Crossing.... Success
Cars..... A9 dualling.... Success so far (3 further dual carriageway sections opened)

[Ozyhibby]

Probably a good thing as let’s be honest the track record for transport has been less than acceptable

Planes … Prestwick ….Shambles
Boats ……Ferries……….Shambles
Trains…….Scotrail……..Shambles

Is Prestwick a shambles?
Is Scotrail the fault of the SG? Surely too early to pass judgement on nationalisation? What’s it been, 3 months?

I’m sure you and James310 are happy enough for these power to go back to Westminster. That’s fine. There will be more power heading that way in years to come to keep you happy.


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[grunt]

I don't share the outrage the UK Government is spending money in the UK to improve the lives of people in the UK.
So you don't agree that devolution should be in place? You can't say you're happy with devolution and at the same time be happy when devoted powers are unilaterally removed?

[James310]

So you don't agree that devolution should be in place? You can't say you're happy with devolution and at the same time be happy when devoted powers are unilaterally removed?

Devolution is a good thing, when it works. The long list of things you published shows that.

I am still not seeing any specific powers that the Scottish Parliament had that has been removed. Yes the UK Gov is spending money on things that are devolved and I can see why some might not like that, but the people benefiting from the upgraded road are absolutely fine with it I am sure.

I am sure if the UK Gov do take powers away and people don't like it then it will only drive support for Independence.

[Berwickhibby]

Is Prestwick a shambles?
Is Scotrail the fault of the SG? Surely too early to pass judgement on nationalisation? What’s it been, 3 months?

I’m sure you and James310 are happy enough for these power to go back to Westminster. That’s fine. There will be more power heading that way in years to come to keep you happy.


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£50m of tax payers money ploughed in which will never be returned is pretty shambolic IMHO

Presently Scotrail is worse than ever …but you are correct this will need months if not years to rectify the many faults inherited

[grunt]

I am still not seeing any specific powers that the Scottish Parliament had that has been removed. Yes the UK Gov is spending money on things that are devolved ...
:wink:

[He's here!]

So are you saying the poll is rigged? The people they asked were lying or the figure for Yes was higher but they deliberately made it lower than it really was?

I am not sure what you mean?

If a YouGov poll came out showing support for Independence was higher would you believe that poll? Why?


'The source/paper/pundit etc doesn't align with my own political ideology therefore I choose to ignore it' riposte has always been a lazy get-out.

[grunt]

'The source/paper/pundit etc doesn't align with my own political ideology therefore I choose to ignore it' riposte has always been a lazy get-out.
You may see it as a lazy get out. I see it as a rational approach to whether I waste my time on biased right wing media who choose to follow an agenda to skew the messaging in the direction that suits their owners.

[ronaldo7]

I think Scotland has more powers now than it ever has, allowing to make the changes to the Social security system you applauded. Do you have any specific examples of powers being taken away from the Scottish Parliament? Or were they powers that Brussels had that have now gone to Westminster?

We're not making changes to the social security system, we've built a new one as the Westminster one is out of date, well, according to the chancellor it is.

It looks like many posts showing how the UK Gov are trying to dictate what happens in devolved areas have been brought to the fore in my coffee break absence.

The Tories didn't want devolution from the start, and they're continuing to try to undermine it again.

Next up GM crops.

[Santa Cruz]

We're not making changes to the social security system, we've built a new one as the Westminster one is out of date, well, according to the chancellor it is.

It looks like many posts showing how the UK Gov are trying to dictate what happens in devolved areas have been brought to the fore in my coffee break absence.

The Tories didn't want devolution from the start, and they're continuing to try to undermine it again.

Next up GM crops.

When you say we've built a new social social security system, am I correct in saying they have adopted the exact same points system for new PIP claimants (think this benefit now has new name), but have made it more compassionate for existing claimants by not subjecting them to continual reviews? Happy to be corrected.

[ronaldo7]

When you say we've built a new social social security system, am I correct in saying they have adopted the exact same points system for new PIP claimants (think this benefit now has new name), but have made it more compassionate for existing claimants by not subjecting them to continual reviews? Happy to be corrected.

You're correct on the more compassionate by not subjecting people to continual reviews.

Someone else will have to help you with the first part re PIP, as we no longer have to go through the process.

[danhibees1875]

Cars..... Queensferry Crossing.... Success
Cars..... A9 dualling.... Success so far (3 further dual carriageway sections opened)

I'm not saying it wasn't a success, but what makes QFC a success or not? :dunno:

I know it hasn't fallen down... But it does seem to be closed often due to ice and often has bottlenecks causing traffic on the lead up to the bridge.

FWIW I like the bridge, and think it compliments the others nicely.

[Santa Cruz]

You're correct on the more compassionate by not subjecting people to continual reviews.

Someone else will have to help you with the first part re PIP, as we no longer have to go through the process.

I think it's called a Disability payment now. I don't have a source but do recall reading it's the same points based system. Imo if we want to take a more compassionate approach, this should apply to both new and existing claimants. This was the chance to do so and an opportunity missed. Depending on where you stay, people will still be going through the process. This new benefit won't be rolled out in Edinburgh or Glasgow until August.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not saying it wasn't a success, but what makes QFC a success or not? :dunno:

I know it hasn't fallen down... But it does seem to be closed often due to ice and often has bottlenecks causing traffic on the lead up to the bridge.

FWIW I like the bridge, and think it compliments the others nicely.

Bottlenecks will always be there because it’s only two lane. The funding of a large part of the bridge came from the EU but from a fund that only allowed for a replacement. As the old bridge only had two lanes then the new one could only have two lanes. Anymore would be seen as an upgrade and the money would not have been available. The only difference is that it was allowed a hard shoulder which the old one did not have.


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[ronaldo7]

I'm not saying it wasn't a success, but what makes QFC a success or not? :dunno:

I know it hasn't fallen down... But it does seem to be closed often due to ice and often has bottlenecks causing traffic on the lead up to the bridge.

FWIW I like the bridge, and think it compliments the others nicely.

How many days has it been closed since it opened?

Did it come in on/ under budget?

[ronaldo7]

I think it's called a Disability payment now. I don't have a source but do recall reading it's the same points based system. Imo if we want to take a more compassionate approach, this should apply to both new and existing claimants. This was the chance to do so and an opportunity missed. Depending on where you stay, people will still be going through the process. This new benefit won't be rolled out in Edinburgh or Glasgow until August.

I'd like to think that the MSPs will find a way to ensure we treat all those applying the same. It's at an early stage in the process and can be tweaked, just as long as the UK Gov don't get involved in another devolved matter.

[Santa Cruz]

I'd like to think that the MSPs will find a way to ensure we treat all those applying the same. It's at an early stage in the process and can be tweaked, just as long as the UK Gov don't get involved in another devolved matter.

I suspect you're right, MSP's will get a fair bit of correspondence re: new claims. The point though is they have had years to plan for taking on this new power and it seems awfy like they've opted for a similar system for new claimants to the chronically unfair existing one. We shall see how this pans out. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

I suspect you're right, MSP's will get a fair bit of correspondence re: new claims. The point though is they have had years to plan for taking on this new power and it seems awfy like they've opted for a similar system for new claimants to the chronically unfair existing one. We shall see how this pans out. :aok:

As the chancellor said, the system was antiquated. I take your point re new claimants though. Good to feed back.

[danhibees1875]

Bottlenecks will always be there because it’s only two lane. The funding of a large part of the bridge came from the EU but from a fund that only allowed for a replacement. As the old bridge only had two lanes then the new one could only have two lanes. Anymore would be seen as an upgrade and the money would not have been available. The only difference is that it was allowed a hard shoulder which the old one did not have.


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I didn't realise there were limitations on the funding like that - interesting. :agree:

I'm not entirely convinced that the roads feeding in don't add to it, but I'm no town planner!

[stuart-farquhar]

Cars..... Queensferry Crossing.... Success
Cars..... A9 dualling.... Success so far (3 further dual carriageway sections opened)

I'll Trump you with Sheriffhall. And the A720 in general. 7 mile queue today. Failure.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'll Trump you with Sheriffhall. And the A720 in general. 7 mile queue today. Failure.

Sherriffhall roundabout was first opened in 1988, 11 years before the Scottish Government was created. The A720, 1981. Who are you blaming for the congestion???

[James310]

Sherriffhall roundabout was first opened in 1988, 11 years before the Scottish Government was created. The A720, 1981. Who are you blaming for the congestion???

Lol, you mean that as well.

It's obviously Henry Ford's fault.

[marinello59]

Bottlenecks will always be there because it’s only two lane. The funding of a large part of the bridge came from the EU but from a fund that only allowed for a replacement. As the old bridge only had two lanes then the new one could only have two lanes. Anymore would be seen as an upgrade and the money would not have been available. The only difference is that it was allowed a hard shoulder which the old one did not have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What percentage of funding came from the EU and can you provide a link to the EU rules that said they wouldn’t invest in improvements to infrastructure.

[degenerated]

What percentage of funding came from the EU and can you provide a link to the EU rules that said they wouldn’t invest in improvements to infrastructure.No idea on EU Funding sum, all I know is that it was from Scottish capital funding budget.

In terms of number of lanes I thought that was down to cost and infrastructure capacity out-with the 22km of works that formed the bridge project and also due to planning around local authority concerns about increased traffic volumes. That was why they introduced the the integrated traffic management systems instead.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lol, you mean that as well.

It's obviously Henry Ford's fault.

Well, I suppose you might be correct, if Karl Benz hadn't beat Ford to it by 22 years. 😂😂😂


Meanwhile I'm wondering when Henry Ford joined the SNP 🤔😁

[greenginger]

Sherriffhall roundabout was first opened in 1988, 11 years before the Scottish Government was created. The A720, 1981. Who are you blaming for the congestion???


OK so the Scott Government did not do the original build but they’ve done SFA to address the congestion problems as they have developed over the years.

[Moulin Yarns]

OK so the Scott Government did not do the original build but they’ve done SFA to address the congestion problems as they have developed over the years.

That's a lie. Maybe it should be on another thread 😉


https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/


As has been mentioned previously somewhere there are lots of issues with the ground around the area, mine workings, a geological fault line for starters.

[marinello59]

No idea on EU Funding sum, all I know is that it was from Scottish capital funding budget.

In terms of number of lanes I thought that was down to cost and infrastructure capacity out-with the 22km of works that formed the bridge project and also due to planning around local authority concerns about increased traffic volumes. That was why they introduced the the integrated traffic management systems instead.

I’m sure Oz will clear that one up soon.

The second part is how I understood it as well. Building a three lane crossing would have prohibitively expensive. Congestion levels are disappointing but sometimes we just have to concede that there are too many cars on the road, admit we are all part of the problem and turn on the radio and chill as we drive slowly home. greengrin
Politics aside the Queensferry crossing is a magnificent feat of engineering. I get an enormous sense of pride every time I see it. On that level alone I’d claim it as a success.

[degenerated]

I’m sure Oz will clear that one up soon.

The second part is how I understood it as well. Building a three lane crossing would have prohibitively expensive. Congestion levels are disappointing but sometimes we just have to concede that there are too many cars on the road, admit we are all part of the problem and turn on the radio and chill as we drive slowly home. greengrin
Politics aside the Queensferry crossing is a magnificent feat of engineering. I get an enormous sense of pride every time I see it. On that level alone I’d claim it as a success.I had the chance to go up the towers when they were building it but bottled it because of my dislike of heights. :greengrin
Very impressive bit of engineering that came in under budget but it was late in being delivered.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m sure Oz will clear that one up soon.

The second part is how I understood it as well. Building a three lane crossing would have prohibitively expensive. Congestion levels are disappointing but sometimes we just have to concede that there are too many cars on the road, admit we are all part of the problem and turn on the radio and chill as we drive slowly home. greengrin
Politics aside the Queensferry crossing is a magnificent feat of engineering. I get an enormous sense of pride every time I see it. On that level alone I’d claim it as a success.

I can’t really back it up because I only know because I saw one of the white hats being interviewed on TV during the build and remembered it. I remember thinking at the time that surely they could have found a way. The guy on the TV seemed to be hinting that maybe the hard shoulder could be used at a future date to increase capacity but maybe not.


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[Jack]

I can’t really back it up because I only know because I saw one of the white hats being interviewed on TV during the build and remembered it. I remember thinking at the time that surely they could have found a way. The guy on the TV seemed to be hinting that maybe the hard shoulder could be used at a future date to increase capacity but maybe not.


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I remember that as well, maybe not the interview though. I was given a tour of the bridge while it was being built and it might have come up in the Q&A at the end.

I have it in my mind it wasn't the EU funding that wouldn't allow 3 lanes but UK government policy. Maybe some background environmental green policy.

The hard shoulder upgrade was a way round this, as you say could become a 3rd lane in the future but in the meantime meant that accidents or breakdowns were much less likely to cause the chaos they did on the old bridge.

[McD]

I’m sure Oz will clear that one up soon.

The second part is how I understood it as well. Building a three lane crossing would have prohibitively expensive. Congestion levels are disappointing but sometimes we just have to concede that there are too many cars on the road, admit we are all part of the problem and turn on the radio and chill as we drive slowly home. greengrin
Politics aside the Queensferry crossing is a magnificent feat of engineering. I get an enormous sense of pride every time I see it. On that level alone I’d claim it as a success.


the bridge is a fantastic feat of engineering and construction… the time spent arranging the roads on either side of it, not so much :greengrin

what I would say in regards to the queues for the bridge, is every time I’m in a queue there, it’s always when the speed limit on the bridge has been lowered, usually to 40. There’s no need for that to happen on almost any of those occasions, and all it does is back up the traffic on either side, and as soon as you clear the bridge the traffic clears, as the speed limit is back to 70.

I can understand certain times requiring the speed limit to be lowered, but it seems to be very very regularly reduced for no reason.

[degenerated]

I remember that as well, maybe not the interview though. I was given a tour of the bridge while it was being built and it might have come up in the Q&A at the end.

I have it in my mind it wasn't the EU funding that wouldn't allow 3 lanes but UK government policy. Maybe some background environmental green policy.

The hard shoulder upgrade was a way round this, as you say could become a 3rd lane in the future but in the meantime meant that accidents or breakdowns were much less likely to cause the chaos they did on the old bridge.It was narrowed due to the original plan of 50m wide bridge being unaffordable at the time of the crash.
It's noted in the big boys book on the Queensferry crossing :greengrin, I'm not a bridge nerd honest. I work for one the lead contractors that made up FCBC, although wasn't involved in it, and there were boxes of these in the office for years after it had all wound down.

We had a boat chartered where they took clients a tour from the water and we could go if there were spaces left and there were engineers etc to explain the process, there was also a free bar so my memory is hazy. 25878258802588125882

[greenginger]

That's a lie. Maybe it should be on another thread 😉


https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/


As has been mentioned previously somewhere there are lots of issues with the ground around the area, mine workings, a geological fault line for starters.

A lie ? Improvements have been planned since 2008.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/

Paper plans don’t ease congestion, and even if they get to a construction stage will their government partners, the Greens , let it be built ?

[Moulin Yarns]

A lie ? Improvements have been planned since 2008.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/

Paper plans don’t ease congestion, and even if they get to a construction stage will their government partners, the Greens , let it be built ?

You clearly know nothing about transport planning if you think that you don't need to look at all options. I've been involved with the A9 dualling and the preparation work before you even decided on the best solution takes years.

What were the improvements planned in 2008? Your link doesn't mention it. 🤔

If you mean 'identified' then yes, but I've already mentioned the geological problems needing to be overcome.

[Stairway 2 7]

Canada got a 10 lane bridge within 5 years, no messing.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-massey-bridge-opening-day

Love some of the Scandinavian bridges that turn into tunnels. A few double decker bridges built recently with light railway and cycling on the lower bridge.

[Ozyhibby]

Canada got a 10 lane bridge within 5 years, no messing.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-massey-bridge-opening-day

Love some of the Scandinavian bridges that turn into tunnels. A few double decker bridges built recently with light railway and cycling on the lower bridge.

We do impressive infrastructure as well. Cross rail is a fantastic engineering feat. We only do these things in London though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We do impressive infrastructure as well. Cross rail is a fantastic engineering feat. We only do these things in London though.


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I'm sure we did all we could with the budget that was given. It came in on budget and looks great I think, but not future proof, especially when the other bridge get decommissioned

[Jack]

I'm sure we did all we could with the budget that was given. It came in on budget and looks great I think, but not future proof, especially when the other bridge get decommissioned

Is the FRB being decommissioned?

It's just been tarted up for public transport and emergency vehicles as well as being a back up for the Queensferry Crossing.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is the FRB being decommissioned?

It's just been tarted up for public transport and emergency vehicles as well as being a back up for the Queensferry Crossing.

I'm unsure but thought it only had 20 years or something, might be prolonged with Queensferry coming in

[greenginger]

You clearly know nothing about transport planning if you think that you don't need to look at all options. I've been involved with the A9 dualling and the preparation work before you even decided on the best solution takes years.

What were the improvements planned in 2008? Your link doesn't mention it. 🤔

If you mean 'identified' then yes, but I've already mentioned the geological problems needing to be overcome.

14 years since the upgrade problem was identified as being required. Read second para of link.

Geological problems can be overcome, they’ve built freeways and flyovers over the San Andreas fault in the US.

[lapsedhibee]

Is the FRB being decommissioned?

It's just been tarted up for public transport and emergency vehicles as well as being a back up for the Queensferry Crossing.

Also needed for pedestrians and cyclists (plenty of both) crossing the Forth.

[Moulin Yarns]

A lie ? Improvements have been planned since 2008.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/

Paper plans don’t ease congestion, and even if they get to a construction stage will their government partners, the Greens , let it be built ?


You clearly know nothing about transport planning if you think that you don't need to look at all options. I've been involved with the A9 dualling and the preparation work before you even decided on the best solution takes years.

What were the improvements planned in 2008? Your link doesn't mention it. 🤔

If you mean 'identified' then yes, but I've already mentioned the geological problems needing to be overcome.


14 years since the upgrade problem was identified as being required. Read second para of link.

Geological problems can be overcome, they’ve built freeways and flyovers over the San Andreas fault in the US.


There you go, Planning takes time, take it from someone with experience of the A9. Identify the problem, do studies of the possible solutions and routes, decide on the solution, go to the magic money tree and build it!! Glad we know how things work, just not in the timescales you think are possible!

[greenginger]

Here’s another time scale problem.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nicola-sturgeon-declines-invitation-appear-123634543.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAL0U9pR1csg3qctIQl-FFi2z2ssbeptFTKQBiFUctNx01WJ2wKpj9pW5wuxgckcoZtcxy VFLMADTIO6l5JmtTAIY9JZcJNDINChAU798Hz-eGNzIwALoDpmMLoPrqJ9rX1LrKVU_iDJdMlZJEyLSzdGvKydUE tSQ8v9HdeFk9egU

Sturgeon invited last November to appear before a Scottish affairs committee at Wesrminister by her fellow Nat committee chairman Peter Wishart.

Took until April for her to reply she was too busy :rolleyes:

[Santa Cruz]

Not a lie as such...ScotGov coming under pressure from the STUC and Opposition to role out free school meals to all Secondary school pupils. This should have been happening from the off imo.

[WhileTheChief..]

A lie ? Improvements have been planned since 2008.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/projects/a720-sheriffhall-roundabout/project-details/

Paper plans don’t ease congestion, and even if they get to a construction stage will their government partners, the Greens , let it be built ?


That's the sort of language that poster uses.

Sometimes people maybe post something not 100% accurate, or they maybe make a mistake. Heaven forbid.

Rest assured he'll be here to call you a liar though. Impossible to have a civil conversation with him if he disagrees with you.

[degenerated]

Not a lie as such...ScotGov coming under pressure from the STUC and Opposition to role out free school meals to all Secondary school pupils. This should have been happening from the off imo.Quite hard to keep up with that one, it doesn't seem so long ago that the opposition were against free school meals

[ronaldo7]

Quite hard to keep up with that one, it doesn't seem so long ago that the opposition were against free school meals

:agree:

Policy started in 2015 for children in p1-3.

This is an extension to the previous policy of offering free school meals to children and young people aged from five to 18 whose families are on low incomes and/or receiving in receipt of qualifying certain benefits.

Not sure Labour got onboard until 2019. Might be wrong on that one though.

If they're wanting it extended again, they'll have to tell us where the money is coming from.

[Stairway 2 7]

Would be great if all school kids got dinner (if it was healthy). Depressing seeing the hoards of school kids outside Greggs and chippies.

[James310]

Submit your Census in today if you need to, or potentially get a fine. Will it reach the 94% target I wonder?

[He's here!]

Submit your Census in today if you need to, or potentially get a fine. Will it reach the 94% target I wonder?

'Scotland's Census has failed'

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/solo-scotland-has-failed-on-census-mppq96p2q

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotland-becomes-first-uk-nation-to-ban-single-use-plastics-after-law-passed-at-cop26-comes-into-force

That's not a lie. 😉

[weecounty hibby]

'Scotland's Census has failed'

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/solo-scotland-has-failed-on-census-mppq96p2q
Congratulations. You will be delighted that the narrative that it was an SNP census rather than a government one has worked with the harder of thinking. Gives you another chance to say the SNP are bad. Never before has a census in Scotland or England as far as I can see has ever been badged as a certain parties census.

[James310]

Congratulations. You will be delighted that the narrative that it was an SNP census rather than a government one has worked with the harder of thinking. Gives you another chance to say the SNP are bad. Never before has a census in Scotland or England as far as I can see has ever been badged as a certain parties census.

The areas with the lowest response rates were the area with the highest Yes votes so I don't think it can purely be put down to people not doing it because it's seen as an SNP Census.

Detaching it from the UK one looks like a mistake in hindsight, but I am sure there will be an inquiry and lessons will be learned.

[weecounty hibby]

The areas with the lowest response rates were the area with the highest Yes votes so I don't think it can purely be put down to people not doing it because it's seen as an SNP Census.

Perhaps that is a good barometer of support for independence in these areas that folk wanted to fill in Scottish census in the face of the msm/Labour/Tory negativity 🤔😄

Detaching it from the UK one looks like a mistake in hindsight, but I am sure there will be an inquiry and lessons will be learned.

Why would a Scotland only census be a mistake? We have powers, nowhere near enough in my view but that's another matter, to allocate funding etc on a Scottish level so makes sense to ask questions directly to the people who live here. High profile Tories and Labour Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie etc were all having a poke about it being SNP and anti British. Total BS but obviously had an impact. Pretty sad and even sadder when you see some glorying in the fact that it was 90%.

[James310]

Why would a Scotland only census be a mistake? We have powers, nowhere near enough in my view but that's another matter, to allocate funding etc on a Scottish level so makes sense to ask questions directly to the people who live here. High profile Tories and Labour Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie etc were all having a poke about it being SNP and anti British. Total BS but obviously had an impact. Pretty sad and even sadder when you see some glorying in the fact that it was 90%.

Scotland has always had it's own Census, we have managed to have a successful Census for literally decades when we did it all together at the same time, questions surely need to be asked why the one time we did it a bit differently it has failed to reach the same response rates as the rest of the UK. It was extended at a cost of about £30M and the total cost is about £150M, if they find this one is of no use because of the low response rate and they need to spend another £100M+ then as taxpayers we should understand why.

Politicians are all the same, no different to the SNP ones moaning about something or another. If they see a failure they will make political gain from it, or try to. That's kind of their jobs, to hold a government to account for perceived failure. That's Scottish politics these days though, everything seen from the lense of the constitution.

[weecounty hibby]

Scotland has always had it's own Census, we have managed to have a successful Census for literally decades when we did it all together at the same time, questions surely need to be asked why the one time we did it a bit differently it has failed to reach the same response rates as the rest of the UK. It was extended at a cost of about £30M and the total cost is about £150M, if they find this one is of no use because of the low response rate and they need to spend another £100M+ then as taxpayers we should understand why.

Politicians are all the same, no different to the SNP ones moaning about something or another. If they see a failure they will make political gain from it, or try to. That's kind of their jobs, to hold a government to account for perceived failure. That's Scottish politics these days though, everything seen from the lense of the constitution.
I'm sorry but this is nothing to do with holding government to account. There were elected members of both parliaments who were encouraging non completion, ably assisted by the msm. I am am SNP member and have been critical of the government where appropriate. I just don't think it needs to be done on every issue on every occasion by the same culprits every time. Again, assisted by the media. There are people within our Parliament who never talk Scotland up, want to run the country down and never want to discuss Scotlands positives. For example inward investment in Scotland has far outstripped the UK and European numbers. I didn't see any member of the opposition parties talk about it and it was on the BBC website very briefly

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm sorry but this is nothing to do with holding government to account. There were elected members of both parliaments who were encouraging non completion, ably assisted by the msm. I am am SNP member and have been critical of the government where appropriate. I just don't think it needs to be done on every issue on every occasion by the same culprits every time. Again, assisted by the media. There are people within our Parliament who never talk Scotland up, want to run the country down and never want to discuss Scotlands positives. For example inward investment in Scotland has far outstripped the UK and European numbers. I didn't see any member of the opposition parties talk about it and it was on the BBC website very briefly

Who were the mps who asked people not to fill out the census, would that not be illegal?

[James310]

I'm sorry but this is nothing to do with holding government to account. There were elected members of both parliaments who were encouraging non completion, ably assisted by the msm. I am am SNP member and have been critical of the government where appropriate. I just don't think it needs to be done on every issue on every occasion by the same culprits every time. Again, assisted by the media. There are people within our Parliament who never talk Scotland up, want to run the country down and never want to discuss Scotlands positives. For example inward investment in Scotland has far outstripped the UK and European numbers. I didn't see any member of the opposition parties talk about it and it was on the BBC website very briefly

Did a politician really say don't complete the Census, I would doubt that seeing as it's a legal requirement and can't imagine anyone encouraging people to break the law.

On your other point how often do you see Labour or the Lib Dems etc in Westminster talking how great the UK is and "talking the UK up" and all the positives that the Tory's have overseen? You don't because that's not how a parliament works.

Criticism of the SNP is not criticism of Scotland, the SNP are not Scotland so if someone has a go at the SNP they are not having a go at Scotland they are having a go at the SNP.

[He's here!]

Did a politician really say don't complete the Census, I would doubt that seeing as it's a legal requirement and can't imagine anyone encouraging people to break the law.

On your other point how often do you see Labour or the Lib Dems etc in Westminster talking how great the UK is and "talking the UK up" and all the positives that the Tory's have overseen? You don't because that's not how a parliament works.

Criticism of the SNP is not criticism of Scotland, the SNP are not Scotland so if someone has a go at the SNP they are not having a go at Scotland they are having a go at the SNP.

Well put. You can be anti-Scottish nationalism without being anti-Scottish.

[James310]

Well put. You can be anti-Scottish nationalism without being anti-Scottish.

I remember reading a survey that found half of SNP supporters agreed with the statement "when people criticise my party, it feels like a personal insult”. The figure was twice the average of other parties.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well put. You can be anti-Scottish nationalism without being anti-Scottish.


I remember reading a survey that found half of SNP supporters agreed with the statement "when people criticise my party, it feels like a personal insult”. The figure was twice the average of other parties.

read it and weep!!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19071840.brexit-triggers-spike-anti-scottish-sentiment-england-study-finds/?ref=rss

apologies, that's behind a paywall.


Same story.


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19071431.experts-say-brexit-sees-rise-hostility-towards-scots-england/

[James310]

read it and weep!!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19071840.brexit-triggers-spike-anti-scottish-sentiment-england-study-finds/?ref=rss

apologies, that's behind a paywall.


Same story.


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19071431.experts-say-brexit-sees-rise-hostility-towards-scots-england/

Why would we read that and weep? They are both behind a pay wall as well.

Has it anything to do with a criticism of the SNP not being a criticism of Scotland?

[Stairway 2 7]

It's nothing to do with the snp. But people would be lying to themselves to say their aren't a number of anti English in Scotland. Every nation has its areseholes though, so why should we be any different. Show me a nation without bigots

[Moulin Yarns]

Why would we read that and weep? They are both behind a pay wall as well.

Has it anything to do with a criticism of the SNP not being a criticism of Scotland?

Because you have read too many Herald and National articles :wink: and can't access them let me summarise.

As a result of Brexit, since 2016 people with scottish accents living and working in england faced the same kind of racisism as west indians in the 60s with people being told to 'go home'

[Moulin Yarns]

It's nothing to do with the snp. But people would be lying to themselves to say their aren't a number of anti English in Scotland. Every nation has its areseholes though, so why should we be any different. Show me a nation without bigots

And I'll show you paradise!

[James310]

Because you have read too many Herald and National articles and can't access them let me summarise.

As a result of Brexit, since 2016 people with scottish accents living and working in england faced the same kind of racisism as west indians in the 60s with people being told to 'go home'

Ok, so that's obviously a bad thing and nobody would say otherwise. Your point?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok, so that's obviously a bad thing and nobody would say otherwise. Your point?

As Stairway said, it is happening in every country in some form, so get of your anti-english horse and realise that we should do better at calling it out regardless of where you are.

And also, as Stairway said, this has nothing to do with the SNP or Labour, or Tory. It's endemic in the whole of the UK in various forms!

[James310]

As Stairway said, it is happening in every country in some form, so get of your anti-english horse and realise that we should do better at calling it out regardless of where you are.

And also, as Stairway said, this has nothing to do with the SNP or Labour, or Tory. It's endemic in the whole of the UK in various forms!

Maybe some crossed wires on your part, but all good and I agree with you.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe some crossed wires on your part, but all good and I agree with you.

:faint::hug:

[Ozyhibby]

So it’s a good thing the Yes movement and the SNP is calling it out? Good to see all you guys give them the thumbs up.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

As Stairway said, it is happening in every country in some form, so get of your anti-english horse and realise that we should do better at calling it out regardless of where you are.

And also, as Stairway said, this has nothing to do with the SNP or Labour, or Tory. It's endemic in the whole of the UK in various forms!

Agreed. It's a non story as you would expect in the telegraph. My wife's English and she's went from always labour to verging on militant snp. I doubt she would if it was anti English. She likes nothing more when were down south, feigning surprise and pity that they pay for prescriptions and university ect when talking to people

For me its not about nationality. Its about having a chance at making a fairer society, away from the corrupt and self serving Westminster

[lapsedhibee]

Agreed. It's a non story as you would expect in the telegraph. My wife's English and she's went from always labour to verging on militant snp. I doubt she would if it was anti English. She likes nothing more when were down south, feigning surprise and pity that they pay for prescriptions and university ect when talking to people


:greengrin

[He's here!]

read it and weep!!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19071840.brexit-triggers-spike-anti-scottish-sentiment-england-study-finds/?ref=rss

apologies, that's behind a paywall.


Same story.


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19071431.experts-say-brexit-sees-rise-hostility-towards-scots-england/

I'm unclear how that relates to being Scottish but not buying into Scottish nationalism.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minimum-alcohol-price-means-drinkers-eat-less-and-heat-less-6h5wscltl

Minimum alcohol price means drinkers ‘eat less and heat less’

[grunt]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minimum-alcohol-price-means-drinkers-eat-less-and-heat-less-6h5wscltl

Minimum alcohol price means drinkers ‘eat less and heat less’That's the (biased) Times take on things. The author of the report was interviewed on GMS today and he was uncritical of minimum alcohol pricing, despite Laura Maxwell twice trying to get him to say as much.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not really got an opinion on it. Sure people still drink, probably just spend more. I wouldn't mind that as a tax. The only problem I have with it I suppose is it shouldn't be giving money to rich supermarkets. The money should have been spent on alcohol education or treatment

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

Bigger article about it here

[Berwickhibby]

Actually have some sympathy for the Scottish Government over this, although I still believe minimum pricing is not the answer, as people with addiction will still purchase regardlessly. I cannot see any other alternative to reduce alcohol related illnesses. Damned if you do Damned if you don’t.

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually have some sympathy for the Scottish Government over this, although I still believe minimum pricing is not the answer, as people with addiction will still purchase regardlessly. I cannot see any other alternative to reduce alcohol related illnesses. Damned if you do Damned if you don’t.

Alcohol specific deaths were up 17% last year. I'm all for them doing something but only if it works. Alcoholics aren't going to stop because it's a bit dearer, that's just fn daft.

Addiction is a medical problem and needs treated as such

[Hibrandenburg]

Alcohol specific deaths were up 17% last year. I'm all for them doing something but only if it works. Alcoholics aren't going to stop because it's a bit dearer, that's just fn daft.

Addiction is a medical problem and needs treated as such

I'm guessing, but isn't the minimum price aimed at discouraging people who are not yet alcoholics in an attempt to reduce alcoholism rather than those who are already addicted?

[Northernhibee]

I'm guessing, but isn't the minimum price aimed at discouraging people who are not yet alcoholics in an attempt to reduce alcoholism rather than those who are already addicted?

It's actually pretty good for the Scottish distilling and brewing industry as well. If the price between a bottle of beer, whisky or whatever and supermarket own label is 100% then a lot of people will just buy the cheaper stuff. If it's 30-50%, more people will go for the smaller company who produces a higher quality product.

Defo has its benefits.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm guessing, but isn't the minimum price aimed at discouraging people who are not yet alcoholics in an attempt to reduce alcoholism rather than those who are already addicted?

I don't think alcoholism works like that. Your not not going to have the illness because the price. People will still become one because alcohol is everywhere

[Stairway 2 7]

It's actually pretty good for the Scottish distilling and brewing industry as well. If the price between a bottle of beer, whisky or whatever and supermarket own label is 100% then a lot of people will just buy the cheaper stuff. If it's 30-50%, more people will go for the smaller company who produces a higher quality product.

Defo has its benefits.

To an extent. But sadly most people get their drink from supermarkets. Most in their are from larger companies, they have also pushed up the price of premium brands. Supermarkets are definitely the biggest winner

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm guessing, but isn't the minimum price aimed at discouraging people who are not yet alcoholics in an attempt to reduce alcoholism rather than those who are already addicted?

Yes, I think that's right. It only really affects very strong and/or (what would be) very cheap drink.

eg. 70cl 40% spirit MUP is £14
75cl 14% wine MUP is £5.25
50cl 5% beer MUP is £1.25

You'd struggle to find much you could describe as pleasurable to drink below those prices, imo.

Last year's Newcastle Uni survey found an overall drop of 8% alcohol consumption in Scotland. This new report shows it's not really making much difference to alcoholics but surely the overall drop in a country with widespread alcohol problems is a good thing?

Entirely anecdotally, I think my kids (early 20s) and their friends have a healthier attitude to alcohol than I and mine did at the same age. Whether that's real and if MUP has anything to do with it, I don't know.

[JeMeSouviens]

MUP would have been much better as a tax, btw, but beyond the powers of our region.

[Stairway 2 7]

MUP would have been much better as a tax, btw, but beyond the powers of our region.

Is Scotland not allowed to raise tax on alcohol that's brutal.

[Jack]

I don't think alcoholism works like that. Your not not going to have the illness because the price. People will still become one because alcohol is everywhere

Do you know how alcoholism works?

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you know how alcoholism works?

As much as most I suppose. Have a close relative blighted by the horrible disease. Its a medical condition and only medical help can prevent it. I'm all for anything that works to stop Scotlands alcohol crisis. It would be banned if it was introduced to the world now. We pretend to ourselves it can be classy with fine wines and real ales. I'm glad scot gov sees it for what it is

[Ozyhibby]

As much as most I suppose. Have a close relative blighted by the horrible disease. Its a medical condition and only medical help can prevent it. I'm all for anything that works to stop Scotlands alcohol crisis. It would be banned if it was introduced to the world now. We pretend to ourselves it can be classy with fine wines and real ales. I'm glad scot gov sees it for what it is

Movement is more towards less prohibition rather than more. For most substances.
I’m against prohibition but minimum pricing does seemed to have worked and the biggest criticism seems to be that they have not raised the minimum price since it was first planned over ten years ago.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Movement is more towards less prohibition rather than more. For most substances.
I’m against prohibition but minimum pricing does seemed to have worked and the biggest criticism seems to be that they have not raised the minimum price since it was first planned over ten years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It shouldn't be banned but alcohol should be seen for what it is. Its much more harmful to you and others than most drugs

Saw this chart. Shows the unbelievable harm to others alcohol causes per 100k, compared to other drugs
25920

[Berwickhibby]

Movement is more towards less prohibition rather than more. For most substances.
I’m against prohibition but minimum pricing does seemed to have worked and the biggest criticism seems to be that they have not raised the minimum price since it was first planned over ten years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You think minimum pricing does work, Universities of Sheffield and Newcastle (Aus) have completed extensive research into Scottish alcohol minimum pricing. Both independantly published the same results...

There is no benefit whatsoever to minimum alcohol pricing. Drinkers continue to drink but do not eat or heat their homes instead. Alcohol sales remain constant but general heath and welfare standards dropped substantially

I tip my hat at the Government for a good try to improve health and I do not have the answer.. but this was no success

[Ozyhibby]

You think minimum pricing does work, Universities of Sheffield and Newcastle (Aus) have completed extensive research into Scottish alcohol minimum pricing. Both independantly published the same results...

There is no benefit whatsoever to minimum alcohol pricing. Drinkers continue to drink but do not eat or heat their homes instead. Alcohol sales remain constant but general heath and welfare standards dropped substantially

I tip my hat at the Government for a good try to improve health and I do not have the answer.. but this was no success

https://arc-nenc.nihr.ac.uk/news/mup-50p-impact-study/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57293223.amp

8% drop in alcohol consumption is surely having a beneficial effect on the nations health?


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[grunt]

There is no benefit whatsoever to minimum alcohol pricing. Drinkers continue to drink but do not eat or heat their homes instead. Alcohol sales remain constant but general heath and welfare standards dropped substantially

I tip my hat at the Government for a good try to improve health and I do not have the answer.. but this was no successBut this was not the findings of the Sheffield study:


The study, by the University of Sheffield, the University of Newcastle (Australia) and Figure 8 Consultancy Services, looked at the "hard to reach" population of people who drank alcohol at harmful levels, including those dependent on alcohol and those accessing treatment services.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

So, regardless how tempting it is to make sweeping generalisations about the effectiveness of a particular SG policy, this study released today should not be used to support those sweeping statements. IMO.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://arc-nenc.nihr.ac.uk/news/mup-50p-impact-study/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57293223.amp

8% drop in alcohol consumption is surely having a beneficial effect on the nations health?


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Not if you need to catch a ferry it's not! :grr:

[Just Alf]

Over the last few years I've seen more youngsters in pubs having soft drinks when out with friends, some at my work seem happy to go somewhere for a coffee or 2 rather than go to the pub.

Don't think minimum pricing will ever stop me carrying on drinking but in my unscientific view maybe a few folks don't get into it in the 1st place.

[Ozyhibby]

Not if you need to catch a ferry it's not! :grr:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61679080

Bigger scandal than the ferries but never gets a mention on BBC Scotland news? Or GMS on Radio Scotland? Or the Nine?


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[Just Alf]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61679080

Bigger scandal than the ferries but never gets a mention on BBC Scotland news? Or GMS on Radio Scotland? Or the Nine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk£2.5 billion spent so far with nothing operational delivered and they're considering scrapping it! Jeez

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think alcoholism works like that. Your not not going to have the illness because the price. People will still become one because alcohol is everywhere

Alcoholism is an addiction that starts with a habit, if you can discourage people becoming habitual drinkers then you can stop them becoming alcoholics.

[greenginger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61679080

Bigger scandal than the ferries but never gets a mention on BBC Scotland news? Or GMS on Radio Scotland? Or the Nine?


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The MoD negotiated a fixed price contract for the delivery of the vehicles.

Obviously something the Scottish Government never considered when ordering their ferries.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, I think that's right. It only really affects very strong and/or (what would be) very cheap drink.

eg. 70cl 40% spirit MUP is £14
75cl 14% wine MUP is £5.25
50cl 5% beer MUP is £1.25

You'd struggle to find much you could describe as pleasurable to drink below those prices, imo.

Last year's Newcastle Uni survey found an overall drop of 8% alcohol consumption in Scotland. This new report shows it's not really making much difference to alcoholics but surely the overall drop in a country with widespread alcohol problems is a good thing?

Entirely anecdotally, I think my kids (early 20s) and their friends have a healthier attitude to alcohol than I and mine did at the same age. Whether that's real and if MUP has anything to do with it, I don't know.

:agree:

Kids today are definitely more switched on to the pitfalls of addiction than my generation. Education and pricing young kids out of the market will definitely have a positive effect going forward.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree:

Kids today are definitely more switched on to the pitfalls of addiction than my generation. Education and pricing young kids out of the market will definitely have a positive effect going forward.

The idea that the policy was going to have substantial positive effects within a few years is nonsense IMO. This was always, like most social issues, going to take a generation to work its way through.

Continued review and adjustment are necessary, of course, but the notion that the scheme has failed or should be binned is short-sighted and dangerous.

[Stairway 2 7]

Alcoholism is an addiction that starts with a habit, if you can discourage people becoming habitual drinkers then you can stop them becoming alcoholics.

But the habit hasn't gone away. Im not sure why people are saying it dropped by 8% it was 2%.

You could say alcohol sales are very much flat if a little down since 2013. There was a really big drop from 2009 to 2013 not sure why. That certainly made a difference. Look at the graph here
25921

The report often reported says it worked because Scotland fell faster than North East England by 8% in one year, in purchases in 35,000 homes. Its a comparison against one region in one year. It says the biggest drops were in houses who bought the most alcohol. Although the study out yesterday said the opposite. That can only be but down to its too close to register


Look at the trends and its flat, although it actually rose during covid.

England has been pretty flat for 10 years and bellow Scotland. Statistically insignificant falls and rises of a few percent.

So Scotland had a big fall in 2009 then stagnated really, although deaths have been creeping up

[Santa Cruz]

The idea that the policy was going to have substantial positive effects within a few years is nonsense IMO. This was always, like most social issues, going to take a generation to work its way through.

Continued review and adjustment are necessary, of course, but the notion that the scheme has failed or should be binned is short-sighted and dangerous.

Kind of like New Zealand's health policy, banning purchasing cigarettes for anyone born after 2008, and reducing the amount of shops that can sell cigarettes to discourage others. Will take time, but the benefits and lives saved over time will be there for all too see. Would love to see that happen here.

[JimBHibees]

The MoD negotiated a fixed price contract for the delivery of the vehicles.

Obviously something the Scottish Government never considered when ordering their ferries.

Fixed price for delivering nothing costing billions sounds a good deal right enough.

[Moulin Yarns]

The MoD negotiated a fixed price contract for the delivery of the vehicles.

Obviously something the Scottish Government never considered when ordering their ferries.


Ahem!!!

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60837254.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16546344030152&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

[Ozyhibby]

The MoD negotiated a fixed price contract for the delivery of the vehicles.

Obviously something the Scottish Government never considered when ordering their ferries.

They’ve spent £3bn and have no vehicles.[emoji23]


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[Lendo]

They’ve spent £3bn and have no vehicles.[emoji23]


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Not only do we have nothing, we also have 310 injured service men and women thanks to the project.

[Berwickhibby]

But the habit hasn't gone away. Im not sure why people are saying it dropped by 8% it was 2%.

You could say alcohol sales are very much flat if a little down since 2013. There was a really big drop from 2009 to 2013 not sure why. That certainly made a difference. Look at the graph here
25921

The report often reported says it worked because Scotland fell faster than North East England by 8% in one year, in purchases in 35,000 homes. Its a comparison against one region in one year. It says the biggest drops were in houses who bought the most alcohol. Although the study out yesterday said the opposite. That can only be but down to its too close to register


Look at the trends and its flat, although it actually rose during covid.

England has been pretty flat for 10 years and bellow Scotland. Statistically insignificant falls and rises of a few percent.

So Scotland had a big fall in 2009 then stagnated really, although deaths have been creeping up

I totally agree with your explanation….I was not having a dig at the Scottish Government, MUP has not been a success but at least there has been an attempt to reduce Alcohol related illness.

[Stairway 2 7]

I totally agree with your explanation….I was not having a dig at the Scottish Government, MUP has not been a success but at least there has been an attempt to reduce Alcohol related illness.

I agree it's brill they are trying. It might have worked slightly but we just need a conversation if it's worth the 270 million it's cost the public so far, probably is. I'm being po faced but I like a bevvy myself, but realise it's no good for us. Would love it if the young team were put off, but there is no regular drop like there is with smoking.

Scot gov know there is a problem though and are obviously trying

[JimBHibees]

Yes, I think that's right. It only really affects very strong and/or (what would be) very cheap drink.

eg. 70cl 40% spirit MUP is £14
75cl 14% wine MUP is £5.25
50cl 5% beer MUP is £1.25

You'd struggle to find much you could describe as pleasurable to drink below those prices, imo.

Last year's Newcastle Uni survey found an overall drop of 8% alcohol consumption in Scotland. This new report shows it's not really making much difference to alcoholics but surely the overall drop in a country with widespread alcohol problems is a good thing?

Entirely anecdotally, I think my kids (early 20s) and their friends have a healthier attitude to alcohol than I and mine did at the same age. Whether that's real and if MUP has anything to do with it, I don't know.

Similar for me two kids 18 and 20 and both them and their friends certainly not drinking to same extent as when I was their age.

[Stairway 2 7]

Underage drinking has dropped massively in the last 20 years in the uk. In 2005 a real sharp decline started and its now around half of what it was. Not sure if there was a focus around this time but it really worked. It's flattened out the last few years but still a lot lower than it was

25922

[LewysGot2]

Similar for me two kids 18 and 20 and both them and their friends certainly not drinking to same extent as when I was their age.

What is the driver there, do you reckon?

Is it cost? Or are you influencing their choices through “don’t do what I did”? Or school education programmes?

So many parents of our generation are quite happy to encourage drinking including under age drinking of their offspring- Scotlands unhealthy relationship with alcohol and its perceived vital role in social activities by people of all backgrounds. Sometimes parents wanting to be cool parents other times the old rite of passage stuff. I’ve even had a mate worry his kid won’t fit in if he doesn’t drink…mind blowing tbh from someone who is educated himself otherwise.

Is it other things that have generally replaced alcohol as the high of choice, too. The white marching stuff is definitely more prevalent at football in the young.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the driver there, do you reckon?

Is it cost? Or are you influencing their choices through “don’t do what I did”? Or school education programmes?

So many parents of our generation are quite happy to encourage drinking including under age drinking of their offspring- Scotlands unhealthy relationship with alcohol and its perceived vital role in social activities by people of all backgrounds. Sometimes parents wanting to be cool parents other times the old rite of passage stuff. I’ve even had a mate worry his kid won’t fit in if he doesn’t drink…mind blowing tbh from someone who is educated himself otherwise.

Is it other things that have generally replaced alcohol as the high of choice, too. The white marching stuff is definitely more prevalent at football in the young.

I think it’s lots of things. Education is part of it but there are other factors. Until they are 18, it is a lot more difficult to get served in a pub than it was when we were younger. So habits are forming at a later stage. There are also more choices open to them for meeting up. They can go out and meet in Nando’s for a couple of hours midweek where as we would never have been able to eat out cheaply and so would have went to a pub.
IMHO the young ones today are behaving much better and making far better choices than our generation (I’m 51) were making.


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[JimBHibees]

What is the driver there, do you reckon?

Is it cost? Or are you influencing their choices through “don’t do what I did”? Or school education programmes?

So many parents of our generation are quite happy to encourage drinking including under age drinking of their offspring- Scotlands unhealthy relationship with alcohol and its perceived vital role in social activities by people of all backgrounds. Sometimes parents wanting to be cool parents other times the old rite of passage stuff. I’ve even had a mate worry his kid won’t fit in if he doesn’t drink…mind blowing tbh from someone who is educated himself otherwise.

Is it other things that have generally replaced alcohol as the high of choice, too. The white marching stuff is definitely more prevalent at football in the young.

A whole load of factors I think peer group depends entirely their friendship group etc parental influences definitely a factor we certainly didn't directly encourage our kids to drink eg a parent we know dropped her daughter off to meet her mates in a park with a bottle of wine at 14. Pubs being much stricter though appreciate there can be ways round it. Imagine cost a factor also. Daughter now 18 was 17 when started uni so couldn't drink in the union. They do drink but seem to be more selective and sensible up until now though obviously that can fundamentally change.

[Stairway 2 7]

Must be something to do with education as 15 year old weren't getting served when I was that age in 2000. But in about 2005 the number of 15 year olds that had drunk started to plummet to now where it halved
25941

One thing is there was only a few people of colour in my secondary. But my nephew goes now and they are probably about a third. A big numbers parent are from Muslim nations in Asia and Africa. I had a bbq for my daughters pals last week and had to get some halal stuff. She says most of her Muslim pals had drunk but only a couple of times and they are 17/18.

Same with her she drinks but rarely, we've not drummed it in one way or the other as they all seem clued up. I was out clubbing 4 times a week at 18 but it was much cheaper, prices are mental now up town. Uni next year so it might go tits up

[JeMeSouviens]

I think it’s lots of things. Education is part of it but there are other factors. Until they are 18, it is a lot more difficult to get served in a pub than it was when we were younger. So habits are forming at a later stage. There are also more choices open to them for meeting up. They can go out and meet in Nando’s for a couple of hours midweek where as we would never have been able to eat out cheaply and so would have went to a pub.
IMHO the young ones today are behaving much better and making far better choices than our generation (I’m 51) were making.


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:agree:

Also, going for a coffee is a thing, which it wasn't in our day (I'm 52).

[Jones28]

I think young people now generally are a bit more caring about their health in general. Smoking rates have plummeted.

It might be something to do with Love Island or these rank shows that show the "beautiful" people flaunting themselves. It might be **** TV but it may be that case that people have been inspired to make positive changes and be more healthy.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think young people now generally are a bit more caring about their health in general. Smoking rates have plummeted.

It might be something to do with Love Island or these rank shows that show the "beautiful" people flaunting themselves. It might be **** TV but it may be that case that people have been inspired to make positive changes and be more healthy.

Love Island and social media thing might tie in with why there is an explosion on steroid use in uk youths unfortunately

[The Tubs]

I’d say it’s due to everyone carrying around a video camera and being able to share the results with an unlimited number of people immediately. I’m sure they have all watched videos of steaming folk and have been put off.

[LewysGot2]

A whole load of factors I think peer group depends entirely their friendship group etc parental influences definitely a factor we certainly didn't directly encourage our kids to drink eg a parent we know dropped her daughter off to meet her mates in a park with a bottle of wine at 14. Pubs being much stricter though appreciate there can be ways round it. Imagine cost a factor also. Daughter now 18 was 17 when started uni so couldn't drink in the union. They do drink but seem to be more selective and sensible up until now though obviously that can fundamentally change.

It's interesting the trends. I've two kids in their 20s. You're probably younger than me at 50 but not too much I guess. Parenting in the days we were growing up was less tolerant and there was more tough love. You'd get the back of my dad's hand in our house if we were caught underage drinking and even as adults the old dear would fret over messier behaviours. I don't think I'm remotely soft as a parent but I'm not like them in this respect. I reckon most parents would have been like mine when I was growing up and I definitely think most parents these days are far more tolerant. Some to the point of indulgent like the wine providing mum you describe.
Some parents seem to want to be their kids mates and that's where the boundary blurs.

But against a back drop of more liberal parenting apparently fewer teens are getting smashed. I wonder how that breaks down - is their a demographic bias at play? Multiculturalism?

Or are the kids making good choices just wiser and ignoring the patterns of their previous generations?

Whatever the case let's hope it's real, sustainable and improves because by Sauzee our country, our NHS and our children need it

[Ozyhibby]

It's interesting the trends. I've two kids in their 20s. You're probably younger than me at 50 but not too much I guess. Parenting in the days we were growing up was less tolerant and there was more tough love. You'd get the back of my dad's hand in our house if we were caught underage drinking and even as adults the old dear would fret over messier behaviours. I don't think I'm remotely soft as a parent but I'm not like them in this respect. I reckon most parents would have been like mine when I was growing up and I definitely think most parents these days are far more tolerant. Some to the point of indulgent like the wine providing mum you describe.
Some parents seem to want to be their kids mates and that's where the boundary blurs.

But against a back drop of more liberal parenting apparently fewer teens are getting smashed. I wonder how that breaks down - is their a demographic bias at play? Multiculturalism?

Or are the kids making good choices just wiser and ignoring the patterns of their previous generations?

Whatever the case let's hope it's real, sustainable and improves because by Sauzee our country, our NHS and our children need it

There are so many different things that could be at play. Is it possible that parents these days are sometimes about 15 years older than their own parents? I often think if I had had kids in my 20’s I would have been nowhere near as good at it?


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[LewysGot2]

There are so many different things that could be at play. Is it possible that parents these days are sometimes about 15 years older than their own parents? I often think if I had had kids in my 20’s I would have been nowhere near as good at it?


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Interesting angle. I don't think every sector of society is having children older than their parents did - some are doing it just as young or even younger. It's probably fair to say folk who go into further or higher education and/or who want a career will. Those trapped in a cycle of poverty and lack of ambition/opportunity not so much...and this probably only emphasises the gap.

[Berwickhibby]

Is Patrick Grady going to get sacked or the whip removed for being a creepy sex pest? Or just a two day suspension

[Jones28]

Love Island and social media thing might tie in with why there is an explosion on steroid use in uk youths unfortunately

I don't think theres any question there.

[Stokesy's on fire]

The Broken record that is Sturgeon has played the same divisive tune for long enough. We really are in a bad way when we have clowns like Sturgeon and Boris leading the way

[McSwanky]

The Broken record that is Sturgeon has played the same divisive tune for long enough.

Isn't that kind of the point of her leadership of the SNP? She supports division of the UK, of course she's going to be divisive!

[Moulin Yarns]

The Broken record that is Sturgeon has played the same divisive tune for long enough. We really are in a bad way when we have clowns like Sturgeon and Boris leading the way

Which clowns would you rather have in charge? 😉

[Berwickhibby]

The Broken record that is Sturgeon has played the same divisive tune for long enough. We really are in a bad way when we have clowns like Sturgeon and Boris leading the way

:aok: Absolutely

[grunt]

We really are in a bad way when we have clowns like Sturgeon and Boris leading the way


Absolutely
Who would you suggest in her place? Or instead of Johnson?

[Berwickhibby]

Who would you suggest in her place? Or instead of Johnson?

Who I want is Dugdale and Burnham… who we get will be Bozo and Nippy

[Moulin Yarns]

Who I want is Dugdale and Burnham… who we get will be Bozo and Nippy

Dugdale has left politics and Burnham is not in the position to become leader, so, realistically what clowns do you want to replace Johnson and sturgeon?

[Berwickhibby]

Dugdale has left politics and Burnham is not in the position to become leader, so, realistically what clowns do you want to replace Johnson and sturgeon?

I gave my suggestions…. The pool of talent in every party is so poor that I believe we will be lumbered with the current incumbents for a while longer

[Santa Cruz]

Isn't that kind of the point of her leadership of the SNP? She supports division of the UK, of course she's going to be divisive!

Think it's more to do with division within Scotland. Regardless of any Referendum outcome, the division caused will be irreparable. At least when we had the Thatcher Gov, we were mostly united as a country. That's not the case now and possibly the saddest part of current day politics in Scotland imo.

[Moulin Yarns]

I gave my suggestions…. The pool of talent in every party is so poor that I believe we will be lumbered with the current incumbents for a while longer

What I'm asking is, because neither of your suggestions are actually available, realistically, based on the shallow pool of talent in the Labour Party, who would be your preferred leaders.

[JeMeSouviens]

Think it's more to do with division within Scotland. Regardless of any Referendum outcome, the division caused will be irreparable. At least when we had the Thatcher Gov, we were mostly united as a country. That's not the case now and possibly the saddest part of current day politics in Scotland imo.

:confused:

I presume you mean Scotland rather than the UK. But even then, 25% cheered her on while 75% were united in a mixture of utter hopelessness and anger. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

Now 25% are cheering on ****face, and the other 75% are split between hopelessness and actually wanting to do something about it.

[grunt]

Think it's more to do with division within Scotland. Regardless of any Referendum outcome, the division caused will be irreparable. At least when we had the Thatcher Gov, we were mostly united as a country. That's not the case now and possibly the saddest part of current day politics in Scotland imo.
I think we're every bit as united as a country as we were in Thatcher's day. The difference now is that those who don't want Scotland to succeed are sowing doubt and talking up division. They are making more noise, but I believe most Scots want the country to do well. And most Scots do not want Tories or Tory policies involved in our lives.

[grunt]

Who I want is Dugdale and Burnham… who we get will be Bozo and NippyInstructive post. Proper names for your choices, derogatory nicknames for those you oppose. You talk about division in politics but you can't even give your opponents the courtesy of using their real names.

[Santa Cruz]

:confused:

I presume you mean Scotland rather than the UK. But even then, 25% cheered her on while 75% were united in a mixture of utter hopelessness and anger. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

Now 25% are cheering on ****face, and the other 75% are split between hopelessness and actually wanting to do something about it.

Possibly the 25% went over my head cos I never knew a single person who supported her Gov. It wouldn't have been 75% either, mentioned this numerous times, this Board is not representative of the populations views on politics. A lot of the public do not give a hoot about politicians from any party, you can see that in turnout figures.

[Berwickhibby]

Instructive post. Proper names for your choices, derogatory nicknames for those you oppose. You talk about division in politics but you can't even give your opponents the courtesy of using their real names.

Of course! I despise both Johnson and Sturgeon, but to please you I have used their correct surnames

[MKHIBEE]

Instructive post. Proper names for your choices, derogatory nicknames for those you oppose. You talk about division in politics but you can't even give your opponents the courtesy of using their real names.
I understand the point you are making re names, but as one of the opponents can’t even give the electorate the decency of treating them as adults, alongside all his other failings, then he really deserves nothing more

[Stairway 2 7]

I understand the point you are making re names, but as one of the opponents can’t even give the electorate the decency of treating them as adults, alongside all his other failings, then he really deserves nothing more

Yeah I was going to say I've called him far worse

[McSwanky]

Possibly the 25% went over my head cos I never knew a single person who supported her Gov. It wouldn't have been 75% either, mentioned this numerous times, this Board is not representative of the populations views on politics. A lot of the public do not give a hoot about politicians from any party, you can see that in turnout figures.22 Tory Mps in Scotland in 1979, 21 in 1983, 10 in 1987. It wasn't until we had a Labour government that the numbers dropped to near zero.

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course! I despise both Johnson and Sturgeon, but to please you I have used their correct surnames

OK, so maybe I misunderstood and you want Barnham's Circus and Dugsh*te for your leaders :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

OK, so maybe I misunderstood and you want Barnham's Circus and Dugsh*te for your leaders :wink:

You are close Bozo �� would fit easily into Barnham’s circus �� and Nippy is dugsh*te ��

[LewysGot2]

Of course! I despise both Johnson and Sturgeon, but to please you I have used their correct surnames

Both the PM and the FM are populist leaders who have convinced the wider electorate that they are their pal with the whole Boris and Nicola thing. Deliberate strategy that has worked to a fair extent.

Dewar
McLeish
McConnell
Salmond
Nicola


Blair
Brown
Cameron
May
Boris

It’s the sign of the times…

[Since90+2]

Both the PM and the FM are populist leaders who have convinced the wider electorate that they are their pal with the whole Boris and Nicola thing. Deliberate strategy that has worked to a fair extent.

Dewar
McLeish
McConnell
Salmond
Nicola


Blair
Brown
Cameron
May
Boris

It’s the sign of the times…

Hardly anybody uses the term Nicola, certainly not in the media.

[He's here!]

What I'm asking is, because neither of your suggestions are actually available, realistically, based on the shallow pool of talent in the Labour Party, who would be your preferred leaders.

Lisa Nandy has long been my choice for Labour leader. They're missing a trick passing her over. One of the few high profile Labour (or Tory) MPs who has actually made an effort to understand Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Lisa Nandy has long been my choice for Labour leader. They're missing a trick passing her over. One of the few high profile Labour (or Tory) MPs who has actually made an effort to understand Scotland.

Wow, we should feel so privileged that an attempt was made to understand us.[emoji849]


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[Hiber-nation]

Lisa Nandy has long been my choice for Labour leader. They're missing a trick passing her over. One of the few high profile Labour (or Tory) MPs who has actually made an effort to understand Scotland.

Her comments about looking to Catalonia for lessons on how to defeat Scottish nationalism were embarrassing.

The only thing she has in her favour is that she has performed a bit better than the likes of Starmer, Reeves and Lammy which wouldn't really be difficult.

[Santa Cruz]

Lisa Nandy has long been my choice for Labour leader. They're missing a trick passing her over. One of the few high profile Labour (or Tory) MPs who has actually made an effort to understand Scotland.

I think she's good enough, but favour Wes Streeting personally. SNP supporters would not welcome Raynor, she has little time for the FM and will not be shy in voicing this. I watched her a while back doing her nut about the FM only ever respecting democratic results when they work in her favour.

[Ozyhibby]

I think she's good enough, but favour Wes Streeting personally. SNP supporters would not welcome Raynor, she has little time for the FM and will not be shy in voicing this. I watched her a while back doing her nut about the FM only ever respecting democratic results when they work in her favour.

Which democratic results has NS not respected?


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[Santa Cruz]

Which democratic results has NS not respected?


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I dunno it was Raynor who said it, it was a while back so can't recall the interview accurately enough to give quotes. I said respecting, it was maybe more not accepting democratic results that worked in her favour. I just recall thinking she was not impressed with the FM at all.

FWIW I actually think the FM would hold her own against Raynor. Much as I admire how Raynor has reached the heights she has, she can sometimes appear poorly prepared in interviews. I would say the FM is more media savvy and politically astute (that was really hard to admit :greengrin).

[He's here!]

I think she's good enough, but favour Wes Streeting personally. SNP supporters would not welcome Raynor, she has little time for the FM and will not be shy in voicing this. I watched her a while back doing her nut about the FM only ever respecting democratic results when they work in her favour.

Sure it wasn't Thornberry?

https://youtu.be/ATtnQ_Rdn5Y

[Santa Cruz]

Sure it wasn't Thornberry?

https://youtu.be/ATtnQ_Rdn5Y

No defo Raynor. I'm going back a few years, can't recall the programme sorry.

[He's here!]

Her comments about looking to Catalonia for lessons on how to defeat Scottish nationalism were embarrassing.

The only thing she has in her favour is that she has performed a bit better than the likes of Starmer, Reeves and Lammy which wouldn't really be difficult.

As she's pointed out those comments were deliberately misinterpreted by the SNP for the sake of cheap headlines:

https://youtu.be/1YqN98T386Q

Nandy's a really sharp operator and would turn Labour's fortunes around both north and south of the border IMHO.

[He's here!]

Mystery deepens over where the Scottish Government's Covid funding went:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61816859

[Mr Grieves]

Mystery deepens over where the Scottish Government's Covid funding went:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61816859

I read the article and it doesn't exactly tie in with your comment.

[Ozyhibby]

I read the article and it doesn't exactly tie in with your comment.

It never does.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/_kateforbes/status/1537333054922018817?s=21&t=IP2bwHeNH11SHQwFWuVj2A

Excellent response from Kate Forbes to Audit Scotland report.


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[Hiber-nation]

It never does.


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Yep. Nandy was on TV last year basically denying the Independence campaign even existed and mocking those in favour of it. Dreadful stuff.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep. Nandy was on TV last year basically denying the Independence campaign even existed and mocking those in favour of it. Dreadful stuff.

The good thing is that they giving the Yes campaign a clear run on the substance. The document released on Tuesday went totally unchallenged. No excuses we’re offered for our poor performance or even promises to do better in the future. They just accepted it and said so what. The Better Together 2 campaign appears to be that we are sinking but it’s all good because we are sinking together.


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[James310]

The good thing is that they giving the Yes campaign a clear run on the substance. The document released on Tuesday went totally unchallenged. No excuses we’re offered for our poor performance or even promises to do better in the future. They just accepted it and said so what. The Better Together 2 campaign appears to be that we are sinking but it’s all good because we are sinking together.


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There is no 'Better Together 2' campaign because there is no referendum. I know it suits the narrative to build it up act like it is though as it somehow gives it legitimacy so I see why it's done. I don't think a document full of graphs and bar charts with over 100 footnotes published only on a government website is going to inspire voters.

I would be surprised if a handful of people you stopped on the street have read it.

The more I see the more this seems like a plan to string it out until the next General Election then vote SNP for a mandate for IndyRef2 and round and round we go.

I could of course be spectacularly wrong and she has some cunning plan but even from her comments she has said she wants a legal referendum. So it's either a S30 or a non legally binding opinion poll basically. The latter will not lead to any kind of formal campaigning to those opposed.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/_kateforbes/status/1537333054922018817?s=21&t=IP2bwHeNH11SHQwFWuVj2A

Excellent response from Kate Forbes to Audit Scotland report.


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That lassie is all over her brief, unlike the headline chasers.

Great thread on her Twitter account.

[weecounty hibby]

I read the article and it doesn't exactly tie in with your comment.

But it's a great headline!! Remember how much unionists get excited about three word phrases so who can blame them for not reading the body if reports

[Ozyhibby]

There is no 'Better Together 2' campaign because there is no referendum. I know it suits the narrative to build it up act like it is though as it somehow gives it legitimacy so I see why it's done. I don't think a document full of graphs and bar charts with over 100 footnotes published only on a government website is going to inspire voters.

I would be surprised if a handful of people you stopped on the street have read it.

The more I see the more this seems like a plan to string it out until the next General Election then vote SNP for a mandate for IndyRef2 and round and round we go.

I could of course be spectacularly wrong and she has some cunning plan but even from her comments she has said she wants a legal referendum. So it's either a S30 or a non legally binding opinion poll basically. The latter will not lead to any kind of formal campaigning to those opposed.

A union kept together by force of law. The end of democracy in Scotland. You must be so proud.


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[ronaldo7]

There is no 'Better Together 2' campaign because there is no referendum. I know it suits the narrative to build it up act like it is though as it somehow gives it legitimacy so I see why it's done. I don't think a document full of graphs and bar charts with over 100 footnotes published only on a government website is going to inspire voters.

I would be surprised if a handful of people you stopped on the street have read it.

The more I see the more this seems like a plan to string it out until the next General Election then vote SNP for a mandate for IndyRef2 and round and round we go.

I could of course be spectacularly wrong and she has some cunning plan but even from her comments she has said she wants a legal referendum. So it's either a S30 or a non legally binding opinion poll basically. The latter will not lead to any kind of formal campaigning to those opposed.

You only have to look at the "Scottish" press to see that BT2 is fully up and running.

[Berwickhibby]

I have not read the report in full but genuinely wonder if there is an underspend and finances are there, would there be an opportunity for businesses to apply for funding for some of that cash …

[Kato]

I read the article and it doesn't exactly tie in with your comment.What I see is...

Scottish Covid spending "Let's scrutinise to the last farthing".

English Covid spending "meh".

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[ronaldo7]

I have not read the report in full but genuinely wonder if there is an underspend and finances are there, would there be an opportunity for businesses to apply for funding for some of that cash …

The report only run until December. All the money has now been fully allocated.

[James310]

You only have to look at the "Scottish" press to see that BT2 is fully up and running.

It's making the news of course it is, but there is no formal Better Together 2 campaign and there won't be one unless a S30 is agreed.

[ronaldo7]

It's making the news of course it is, but there is no formal Better Together 2 campaign and there won't be one unless a S30 is agreed.

The British state run two pronged attacks, sometimes more. 😉

[James310]

The British state run two pronged attacks, sometimes more. 😉

Not really sure what that means?

[Ozyhibby]

The report only run until December. All the money has now been fully allocated.

And the report appears to be rather positive about the SG.


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[grunt]

There is no 'Better Together 2' campaign because there is no referendum...

Are we "not allowed" to have a referendum then?

[Berwickhibby]

Are we "not allowed" to have a referendum then?

As I recall we had a once in a generation referendum in 2014.

[grunt]

As I recall we had a once in a generation referendum in 2014.:rolleyes:

So we're not allowed another one? "You'll have had your referendum"?

[weecounty hibby]

As I recall we had a once in a generation referendum in 2014.

That is such a boring comeback. Nowhere in the Edinburgh agreement, signed by all parties, is a timeframe for another referendum mentioned. Also the Westminster government has already defined a political generation in the Good Friday agreement as seven years. Actually written into a legal document. 2014 to 2023 = 9 years.

[degenerated]

Lisa Nandy has long been my choice for Labour leader. They're missing a trick passing her over. One of the few high profile Labour (or Tory) MPs who has actually made an effort to understand Scotland.And what was her understanding - that they should deal with Scotland's democratic choice the same way as Spain dealt with Catalonia.

[James310]

That is such a boring comeback. Nowhere in the Edinburgh agreement, signed by all parties, is a timeframe for another referendum mentioned. Also the Westminster government has already defined a political generation in the Good Friday agreement as seven years. Actually written into a legal document. 2014 to 2023 = 9 years.

I accept it's not in the Edinburgh agreement but let's not pretend it wasn't said multiple times and was referenced multiple times in the White Paper.

"If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?

The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence."

It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity."

"If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost."

"It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

Maybe people were naive to believe what was being said in the White Paper.

[ronaldo7]

I accept it's not in the Edinburgh agreement but let's not pretend it wasn't said multiple times and was referenced multiple times in the White Paper.

"If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?

The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence."

It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity."

"If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost."

"It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

Maybe people were naive to believe what was being said in the White Paper.

Have a look at the Smith commission report.

Your answer is in there.

[James310]

It's also relevant to reference a speech in October 2015 when Nicola Sturgeon said we should pursue a second independence referendum only if there is "strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country"

After Brexit, Covid, Boris Johnson etc is there evidence that the country has changed its mind and Independence has become the choice of a clear majority? I think you would hard pressed to argue it has based on all the multiple opinion polls we get.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I accept it's not in the Edinburgh agreement but let's not pretend it wasn't said multiple times and was referenced multiple times in the White Paper.

"If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?

The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence."

It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity."

"If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost."

"It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

Maybe people were naive to believe what was being said in the White Paper.

It was said once and the Unionists piled on top of it at the time.

[James310]

It was said once and the Unionists piled on top of it at the time.

That's just not true though, it was said multiple times in interviews.

[Ozyhibby]

It's also relevant to reference a speech in October 2015 when Nicola Sturgeon said we should pursue a second independence referendum only if there is "strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country"

After Brexit, Covid, Boris Johnson etc is there evidence that the country has changed its mind and Independence has become the choice of a clear majority? I think you would hard pressed to argue it has based on all the multiple opinion polls we get.

Never mind opinion polls. Votes at the ballot box are what counts and we returned a majority of MSP’s who said they will pursue a second referendum. That’s how the system is supposed to work.
If you want to do away with democracy then just say so?


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[stoneyburn hibs]

That's just not true though, it was said multiple times in interviews.

Happy to be corrected if you can.
Nevertheless saying it an interview doesn't make it law.

[James310]

Never mind opinion polls. Votes at the ballot box are what counts and we returned a majority of MSP’s who said they will pursue a second referendum. That’s how the system is supposed to work.
If you want to do away with democracy then just say so?


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I am just following Nicola Sturgeons instructions!

The next 12 months will be interesting, if you are correct then there will be a big swing to Independence if people feel they are not getting the chance to vote on independence, but again the polls show 77% of people don't want a referendum in 2023 and 84% think Independence is not in the top 3 priorities for the Scottish Government.

Let's see what series of papers say and what the roadmap to the referendum is, if you have confidence in Nicola Sturgeon you won't have long to wait as she said a legal referendum will happen next year.

[James310]

Happy to be corrected if you can.
Nevertheless saying it an interview doesn't make it law.

I never said it was law though did I?

I can search the internet for the video where she and Alex Salmond say it multiple times across multiple interviews but you get the picture.