SNP are lying b******s as well !

[silverhibee]

You (Silver) must think they are all part of the grand plot.

A grand plot, me, no way, I mean if the police tell you something we must believe it.

The tents were the statement, plastered on the papers and tv, it sent the message that this must be serious stuff and people bought it, and yet Michelle Mone can walk the streets freely after bumping the tax payer £60m and not a blue tent to be seen.

[silverhibee]

There was no suggestion of French diplomats buried in his garden?


:cb

:thumbsup:

[silverhibee]

I am sure if they were sorting through all their personal possssions in the garden with the media filming it then as he has stated they would be accused of not doing enough to protect their privacy and people would be saying they were doing it deliberately. I guess they could have boxed everything up and taken it away, but he says it was their also in the interests of "justice" so maybe the search has to be done there and then. I still think the simplest explanation is likely to be the truth.

If he is lying then on whose orders and direction seeing as he was the most senior police officer in Scotland?

And yet we got to see evidence bags in the garden.

Operation Branchform is now a longer investigation than the Lockerbie bombing, one is for £600k the other was for the murder of hundreds of people.

And yip, in any operation the police bag and box everything up and take it to the police station, why was this case so different.

[Berwickhibby]

A grand plot, me, no way, I mean if the police tell you something we must believe it.

The tents were the statement, plastered on the papers and tv, it sent the message that this must be serious stuff and people bought it, and yet Michelle Mone can walk the streets freely after bumping the tax payer £60m and not a blue tent to be seen.

Investigation into Mone still ongoing, unfortunately her wealthy lawyers are stalling and fighting every part of the investigation.

Saw this a while back https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/15/uks-national-agency-says-it-is-not-scared-of-ppe-medpros-lawyers another thief who deserves the jail

[jamie_1875]

A grand plot, me, no way, I mean if the police tell you something we must believe it.

The tents were the statement, plastered on the papers and tv, it sent the message that this must be serious stuff and people bought it, and yet Michelle Mone can walk the streets freely after bumping the tax payer £60m and not a blue tent to be seen.

So if he is lying who is directing him? If you genuinely believe he is deliberately doing this to somehow embarrass the SNP who is directing him to do this seeing as he was the most senior police officer in Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

So if he is lying who is directing him? If you genuinely believe he is deliberately doing this to somehow embarrass the SNP who is directing him to do this seeing as he was the most senior police officer in Scotland.

Does he need to be directed by someone else?


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[grunt]

It was reported that Murrell was buying personal items using company funds, again this was reported so the simple explanation is they were looking for these personal items in amongst all their other personal items.
How would they know just by looking at them which personal items had been "bought with company funds"? Answer - they wouldnt. It's all for show, a performance aimed at the Unionist vote in Scotland and across the wider UK, saying "look at what these crooks in the SNP have been up to". It's a whole bag of lies, which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

[grunt]

A grand plot, me, no way, I mean if the police tell you something we must believe it.Agreed. :agree:

[grunt]

The tents were the statement, plastered on the papers and tv, it sent the message that this must be serious stuff and people bought it, and yet Michelle Mone can walk the streets freely after bumping the tax payer £60m and not a blue tent to be seen.
In my view the whole PPE Medpro contract was bogus, so I'd be looking for the more than £200,000,000 they were paid for their dirty crony deal. As it is, it seems that the Govt are only seeking recovery of the £122,000,000 part of the contract where they supplied useless sterile gowns which had to be destroyed. Mone and her criminal husband should be behind bars for the rest of their lives.

[Ozyhibby]

How would they know just by looking at them which personal items had been "bought with company funds"? Answer - they wouldnt. It's all for show, a performance aimed at the Unionist vote in Scotland and across the wider UK, saying "look at what these crooks in the SNP have been up to". It's a whole bag of lies, which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

To be fair if there were Tetley tea bags in the house and a receipt for Tetley tea bags put through by the SNP then it seems like a slam dunk case. I’m surprised it’s took this long.


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[Ozyhibby]

How would they know just by looking at them which personal items had been "bought with company funds"? Answer - they wouldnt. It's all for show, a performance aimed at the Unionist vote in Scotland and across the wider UK, saying "look at what these crooks in the SNP have been up to". It's a whole bag of lies, which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

Worked a treat last July then.


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[Berwickhibby]

In my view the whole PPE Medpro contract was bogus, so I'd be looking for the more than £200,000,000 they were paid for their dirty crony deal. As it is, it seems that the Govt are only seeking recovery of the £122,000,000 part of the contract where they supplied useless sterile gowns which had to be destroyed. Mone and her criminal husband should be behind bars for the rest of their lives.

I agree

[grunt]

To be fair if there were Tetley tea bags in the house and a receipt for Tetley tea bags put through by the SNP then it seems like a slam dunk case. I’m surprised it’s took this long.
You would make a TERRIBLE prosecutor.

[lapsedhibee]

To be fair if there were Tetley tea bags in the house and a receipt for Tetley tea bags put through by the SNP then it seems like a slam dunk case. I’m surprised it’s took this long.


If the date of purchase seemed incompatible with the use-by date on the carton of teabags, that could take two or three years to resolve.

[grunt]

Worked a treat last July then.:agree: I'm pretty sure it had an impact. We're seeing interference in our democratic processes in plain sight. On the grass of the front garden, you might say.

[Ozyhibby]

You would make a TERRIBLE prosecutor.

[emoji23]


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[Andy Bee]

When you think over the life of the Union, the whole 318 years of it, not one UK PM has been arrested and that period has seen some utter ghouls in office with some heinous crimes committed and then you look at the 25 years of Scottish devolution and we've had 2 out of 7 First Ministers arrested, both SNP, it sort of brings things into perspective. This is a fitup it just is.

[Kato]

A grand plot, me, no way, I mean if the police tell you something we must believe it.

The tents were the statement, plastered on the papers and tv, it sent the message that this must be serious stuff and people bought it, and yet Michelle Mone can walk the streets freely after bumping the tax payer £60m and not a blue tent to be seen.£203 million.

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[Stairway 2 7]

If he is found guilty in court will people put their hands up and say fair play he really was a criminal or just keep on down the calimero route.

The SNP are the establishment. Justice is devolved Angela Constance as the minister of justice and the top two in the crown office are in the SNP cabinet. If there is a cover up it will come out and it's stunning it got past the 3 mentioned above

[jamie_1875]

If he is found guilty in court will people put their hands up and say fair play he really was a criminal or just keep on down the calimero route.

The SNP are the establishment. Justice is devolved Angela Constance as the minister of justice and the top two in the crown office are in the SNP cabinet. If there is a cover up it will come out and it's stunning it got past the 3 mentioned above

I suspect if he is found guilty the judge and jury have obviously been got at by the shady UK establishment!!

Just like when Alex Salmond was found guilty.... oh.

[Ozyhibby]

If he is found guilty in court will people put their hands up and say fair play he really was a criminal or just keep on down the calimero route.

The SNP are the establishment. Justice is devolved Angela Constance as the minister of justice and the top two in the crown office are in the SNP cabinet. If there is a cover up it will come out and it's stunning it got past the 3 mentioned above

The SNP can’t get involved in investigation, especially if it’s concerning them. This will just need to play out.
Just the launching of investigations is enough to paralyse an organisation. Police Scotland and the PF have form for vindictive prosecutions. There was nothing the SNP could do to stop them either.
Or the case against Salmond, which let’s face it should never have been near a court room. Extremely sleazy behaviour and a definite HR issue but nothing more.


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[Ozyhibby]

I suspect if he is found guilty the judge and jury have obviously been got at by the shady UK establishment!!

Just like when Alex Salmond was found guilty.... oh.

Salmond was found guilty?[emoji2369]


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[Stairway 2 7]

I suspect if he is found guilty the judge and jury have obviously been got at by the shady UK establishment!!

Just like when Alex Salmond was found guilty.... oh.

I think most pro Indy but pro Salmond supporters think it was the SNP establishment ie Sturgeon and Liz Lloyd that got Salmond prosecuted.

[Ozyhibby]

I think most pro Indy but pro Salmond supporters think it was the SNP establishment ie Sturgeon and Liz Lloyd that got Salmond prosecuted.

Police Scotland and the PF’s office are responsible for bringing a criminal case to court. Nobody else. They brought an incredibly weak case to court and were sent packing. Only they know why they let it get that far.


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[JimBHibees]

When you think over the life of the Union, the whole 318 years of it, not one UK PM has been arrested and that period has seen some utter ghouls in office with some heinous crimes committed and then you look at the 25 years of Scottish devolution and we've had 2 out of 7 First Ministers arrested, both SNP, it sort of brings things into perspective. This is a fitup it just is.

The lack of any sort of criminal charges for the Ppe scandals down south where clearly millions where misappropriated fraudulently says it all. Definitely different standards better together though.

[Keith_M]

:agree: I'm pretty sure it had an impact. We're seeing interference in our democratic processes in plain sight. On the grass of the front garden, you might say.



On the grassy knoll?


:hmmm:

[silverhibee]

Investigation into Mone still ongoing, unfortunately her wealthy lawyers are stalling and fighting every part of the investigation.

Saw this a while back https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/15/uks-national-agency-says-it-is-not-scared-of-ppe-medpros-lawyers another thief who deserves the jail

Yeah I know that, but you would have to do a bit digging to know she is under investigation and when was the last time Mones case was scrutinised like Sturgeon and Murrell on the tv.

[Stairway 2 7]

Police Scotland and the PF’s office are responsible for bringing a criminal case to court. Nobody else. They brought an incredibly weak case to court and were sent packing. Only they know why they let it get that far.


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There was blame all round the original investigation by the SNP against Salmond was found in court to be "unlawfully" and "with apparent bias". Liz Lloyd was named in parliament as the person who leaked to the daily record about the claims and police incorrectly followed up on that. The justice minister at the time must have been in consultation too and the PF sitting in cabinet. Seems a shambles for all involved

[silverhibee]

So if he is lying who is directing him? If you genuinely believe he is deliberately doing this to somehow embarrass the SNP who is directing him to do this seeing as he was the most senior police officer in Scotland.

Erm let me guess, Rishi Sunak did say supporters of independence are extremists and pose a threat to the uk, so we can start there in Westminister, if I’m a threat then I would expect Nicola Sturgeon to be top of the list by MI 5 and they would be instructed by government to destroy her, they have tried but not succeeded yet.

[silverhibee]

How would they know just by looking at them which personal items had been "bought with company funds"? Answer - they wouldnt. It's all for show, a performance aimed at the Unionist vote in Scotland and across the wider UK, saying "look at what these crooks in the SNP have been up to". It's a whole bag of lies, which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

I would say more folk are waking up and seeing the stitch up.

[Smartie]

Erm let me guess, Rishi Sunak did say supporters of independence are extremists and pose a threat to the uk, so we can start there in Westminister, if I’m a threat then I would expect Nicola Sturgeon to be top of the list by MI 5 and they would be instructed by government to destroy her, they have tried but not succeeded yet.

They effectively have succeeded.

She's gone from a strong, decisive, powerful leader to a shell of that. Fallen a long way from her pomp in a short period of time.

Job done.

[jamie_1875]

How would they know just by looking at them which personal items had been "bought with company funds"? Answer - they wouldnt. It's all for show, a performance aimed at the Unionist vote in Scotland and across the wider UK, saying "look at what these crooks in the SNP have been up to". It's a whole bag of lies, which you seem to have bought into wholesale.

Again the simple and rational explanation was he bought them via the company Amazon account, so probably very easy to identify what was bought with company funds. I mean he bought a campervan for over £100,000 with company funds, what on earth was that for? Was he going to get Nicola Sturgeon driving around sleeping in it at nightime?! Even the company treasurer never knew about it until he saw it in the accounts, so what else was he buying...

Again the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one. If he goes to court we will find out.

It still doesn't explain why this "show" was only kicked off when an Independence supporter made the complaint to police. No Unionists made any complaints as they wouldn't have contributed to the fundraiser. Without that complaint being made it's unlikely it would have spiraled into what it has become.

Let's hope we get some resolution soon.

[Ozyhibby]

There was blame all round the original investigation by the SNP against Salmond was found in court to be "unlawfully" and "with apparent bias". Liz Lloyd was named in parliament as the person who leaked to the daily record about the claims and police incorrectly followed up on that. The justice minister at the time must have been in consultation too and the PF sitting in cabinet. Seems a shambles for all involved

But what I said was true. It’s entirely on Police Scotland and the PF that it ended up in court.


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[Ozyhibby]

Again the simple and rational explanation was he bought them via the company Amazon account, so probably very easy to identify what was bought with company funds. I mean he bought a campervan for over £100,000 with company funds, what on earth was that for? Was he going to get Nicola Sturgeon driving around sleeping in it at nightime?! Even the company treasurer never knew about it until he saw it in the accounts, so what else was he buying...

Again the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one. If he goes to court we will find out.

It still doesn't explain why this "show" was only kicked off when an Independence supporter made the complaint to police. No Unionists made any complaints as they wouldn't have contributed to the fundraiser. Without that complaint being made it's unlikely it would have spiraled into what it has become.

Let's hope we get some resolution soon.

Who owns the campervan?


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[jamie_1875]

Erm let me guess, Rishi Sunak did say supporters of independence are extremists and pose a threat to the uk, so we can start there in Westminister, if I’m a threat then I would expect Nicola Sturgeon to be top of the list by MI 5 and they would be instructed by government to destroy her, they have tried but not succeeded yet.

I mean maybe just maybe after 20 years in the job and being arrogant enough to lie about things like the membership numbers he thought he was a bit untouchable, it's possible.

[jamie_1875]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7869196]Who owns the campervan?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk [/ QUOTE]

The SNP. It's in their accounts, it was sitting in his mother's drive.

[CropleyWasGod]

Again the simple and rational explanation was he bought them via the company Amazon account, so probably very easy to identify what was bought with company funds. I mean he bought a campervan for over £100,000 with company funds, what on earth was that for? Was he going to get Nicola Sturgeon driving around sleeping in it at nightime?! Even the company treasurer never knew about it until he saw it in the accounts, so what else was he buying...

Again the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one. If he goes to court we will find out.

It still doesn't explain why this "show" was only kicked off when an Independence supporter made the complaint to police. No Unionists made any complaints as they wouldn't have contributed to the fundraiser. Without that complaint being made it's unlikely it would have spiraled into what it has become.

Let's hope we get some resolution soon.

Gonny stop calling it a "company" :greengrin

The camper van was bought for campaigning. Around one of the lockdowns, so not the best decision in hindsght. But fraudulent? Not a bit.

As for the Treasurer not knowing? He's either at it, or incompetent.

And Murrell bought it with his own money, in the party's name, for which he is being repaid.

[Hibrandenburg]

Erm let me guess, Rishi Sunak did say supporters of independence are extremists and pose a threat to the uk, so we can start there in Westminister, if I’m a threat then I would expect Nicola Sturgeon to be top of the list by MI 5 and they would be instructed by government to destroy her, they have tried but not succeeded yet.

Wouldn't be the first time that the intelligence services have had the SNP in their sights. I'm amazed that anyone can't understand why the UK intelligence services working on behalf of the UK government, wouldn't actively try and undermine a party whose sole purpose is the destruction of the UK as we know it.

[Kato]

The lack of any sort of criminal charges for the Ppe scandals down south where clearly millions where misappropriated fraudulently says it all. Definitely different standards better together though.It's worth pointing out that Mone's Medpro contract is only 1 of many.

111 VIP lane contracts, 71 with zero due diligence. All while companies with good track records in supplying PPE were being ignored.

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[Andy Bee]

Wouldn't be the first time that the intelligence services have had the SNP in their sights. I'm amazed that anyone can't understand why the UK intelligence services working on behalf of the UK government, wouldn't actively try and undermine a party whose sole purpose is the destruction of the UK as we know it.

Papers coming out now after being locked away for decades dating back to the sixties. If they were doing this way back then then you've got to wonder what they're up to now with todays technologies.

https://x.com/wal_cym/status/1879317919236276466

[grunt]

David Kennedy, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said: "The police investigation, as far as we are concerned, has been completed. It's frustrating for the police officers involved that they're continually getting the blame for dragging their heels.

From the paragon of impartial Scottish newspapers - the Scottish Daily Express! :greengrin

[Kato]

Wouldn't be the first time that the intelligence services have had the SNP in their sights. I'm amazed that anyone can't understand why the UK intelligence services working on behalf of the UK government, wouldn't actively try and undermine a party whose sole purpose is the destruction of the UK as we know it.Willie McRae. Found dead in his car after committing "suicide". Shot himself in head with a gun which was found 60ft away from his car.

Not strange at all.

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[grunt]

On the grassy knoll?


:hmmm:
I dont remember there being tents on the grassy knoll ...

[hibee]

Yeah I know that, but you would have to do a bit digging to know she is under investigation and when was the last time Mones case was scrutinised like Sturgeon and Murrell on the tv.

The Michelle Mone Scandal: Where Did Our Money Go is being advertised on Channel 5 just now and will be on this Monday at 9pm.

The BBC are also making a programme called The Rise and Fall of Michelle Mone but no idea when it will be on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2024/bbc-commission-documentary-series-telling-story-of-michelle-mone

[grunt]

It's worth pointing out that Mone's Medpro contract is only 1 of many.

111 VIP lane contracts, 71 with zero due diligence. All while companies with good track records in supplying PPE were being ignored.

This is why I want Johnson and the rest of his lying Tory cabal in prison for life. Or longer, if need be.

[grunt]

Again the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one. Why do you say that? What evidence do you have for this point of view?

[jamie_1875]

Willie McRae. Found dead in his car after committing "suicide". Shot himself in head with a gun which was found 60ft away from his car.

Not strange at all.

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Wasn't it the fact that the police originally thought they were dealing with a road traffic accident and moved the car, when they discovered he had a gunshot wound they moved the car back to around the same area he was found, that could explain why the gun was found away from the scene.

If not the case then yes it's very unlikely you shoot yourself and throw the gun that distance!

[jamie_1875]

Why do you say that? What evidence do you have for this point of view?

Which one? Aren't we allowed opinions? You think it's a stitch up, I don't and suspect there is some foul play by Murrell based on what I have read, you don't. We are allowed to disagree and have a different opinion.

[grunt]

Which one? Aren't we allowed opinions? You think it's a stitch up, I don't and suspect there is some foul play by Murrell based on what I have read, you don't. We are allowed to disagree and have a different opinion.Of course we're allowed opinions. I'm just asking how you arrived at your opinion. Don't worry if you don't want to answer.

[jamie_1875]

Of course we're allowed opinions. I'm just asking how you arrived at your opinion. Don't worry if you don't want to answer.

Based on what he has been charged with and the details of the case I have seen and read, plus he is a proven liar but where else would it be from? I am guessing very similar to you, you think it's a set up based on what you have seen and read I am assuming.

[Stairway 2 7]

From the paragon of impartial Scottish newspapers - the Scottish Daily Express! :greengrin

Does a direct quote become not a direct quote when it's in a certain paper.

[Kato]

Wasn't it the fact that the police originally thought they were dealing with a road traffic accident and moved the car, when they discovered he had a gunshot wound they moved the car back to around the same area he was found, that could explain why the gun was found away from the scene.

If not the case then yes it's very unlikely you shoot yourself and throw the gun that distance!The eye witnesses disagreed with the police's positioning of the car.

Stank to high heaven at the time. Stinks now.

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[jamie_1875]

The eye witnesses disagreed with the police's positioning of the car.

Stank to high heaven at the time. Stinks now.

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So the car was moved?

[grunt]

Does a direct quote become not a direct quote when it's in a certain paper.You're too clever to believe that.

[grunt]

Based on what he has been charged with and the details of the case I have seen and read, plus he is a proven liar but where else would it be from? I am guessing very similar to you, you think it's a set up based on what you have seen and read I am assuming.
Sorry, I was asking why you think "the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one". That's not been my experience.

[Andy Bee]

So the car was moved?

Doesn't matter anyway, the nurse and an orderly in Aberdeen Hospital both state he was shot in the back of the neck with the bullet lodged at the bottom of his brain stem. No injuries to the front of his face, infact they didn't realise he'd been shot until the xray was taken.

The car had rolled and the gun was found in a burn below the car. Pretty weird if not impossible to shoot yourself in the back of your neck whilst driving a car. The book Firebrand, Ron Culleys second book on the subject covers it all in great detail.

[Jack]

I mean maybe just maybe after 20 years in the job and being arrogant enough to lie about things like the membership numbers he thought he was a bit untouchable, it's possible.

I never did get the seriousness of the membership numbers. Who was he/the SNP kidding other than themselves?

Some other parties never even say what their membership numbers are!

Who cares?

[jamie_1875]

I never did get the seriousness of the membership numbers. Who was he/the SNP kidding other than themselves?

Some other parties never even say what their membership numbers are!

Who cares?

It was Humza Yousaf, Kate Forbes and Ash Regan who cared.

"The SNP is expected to release its membership figures on Thursday after demands from the three candidates in its leadership contest.

The party previously said it would only give the numbers when the result of the vote was announced.

Ash Regan called for transparency in an open letter, also written on behalf of Kate Forbes, to SNP chief executive officer Peter Murrell.

Humza Yousaf's team said he had "sought assurances" figures would be released"

[jamie_1875]

Sorry, I was asking why you think "the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one". That's not been my experience.

Because it generally always is. Occam's Razor I think is the term but I may be wrong.

[grunt]

Because it generally always is. Occam's Razor I think is the term but I may be wrong.I'd be surprised if that applies in politics in 2025.

[Jack]

It was Humza Yousaf, Kate Forbes and Ash Regan who cared.

"The SNP is expected to release its membership figures on Thursday after demands from the three candidates in its leadership contest.

The party previously said it would only give the numbers when the result of the vote was announced.

Ash Regan called for transparency in an open letter, also written on behalf of Kate Forbes, to SNP chief executive officer Peter Murrell.

Humza Yousaf's team said he had "sought assurances" figures would be released"

An internal issue then. Why the national furore?

[jamie_1875]

An internal issue then. Why the national furore?

It was essentially a contest to decide the next First Minister of Scotland so received significant coverage, which seems reasonable.

[Kato]

So the car was moved?We already discussed the fact the car was moved.

Why are you asking if the car was moved? You're not Rumpole.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250117/f94afc1a9ad26834191858688923ea37.jpg

Swinney steadying the ship.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250117/f94afc1a9ad26834191858688923ea37.jpg

Swinney steadying the ship.


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Even though the ship was seven years late a four times the original cost :faf::faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

Even though the ship was seven years late a four times the original cost :faf::faf:

:greengrin

[Jack]

Even though the ship was seven years late a four times the original cost :faf::faf:

At least it's sailing.





For now.

[Andy Bee]

Ahh well, John Swinney it is then, for ever and ever and ever. :greengrin

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-is-about-to-become-unreformable/

[Ozyhibby]

Ahh well, John Swinney it is then, for ever and ever and ever. :greengrin

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-is-about-to-become-unreformable/

Not sure the point of the article?


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[Andy Bee]

Surely trying to change the rules to make it markedly harder to change the leadership should be highlighted? This is the type of thing that caused all the division previously with Sturgeon.

[Ozyhibby]

Surely trying to change the rules to make it markedly harder to change the leadership should be highlighted? This is the type of thing that caused all the division previously with Sturgeon.

It’s not like it’s hard to change SNP leadership. We’ve had three in last two years? If the current leadership loses support they will be gone just like in any other party.
As it is, Swinney has steadied the ship and got the party back to bread and butter issues abandoned but late years Sturgeon and Yousaf. There is no desire out there to change the leadership?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Only a matter of time before Sarwar proposes it!


https://news.stv.tv/politics/work-to-begin-on-council-tax-replacement-to-overhaul-local-levy-system


.

[Ozyhibby]

Only a matter of time before Sarwar proposes it!


https://news.stv.tv/politics/work-to-begin-on-council-tax-replacement-to-overhaul-local-levy-system


.

This is a good idea. The SNP needs a big offer for the next election that represents some change. The work will need to almost done and the plans fully fleshed out to win people’s confidence it will happen though after previous failures but it def has potential.
Labour currently are offering to keep SNP policies we already have but with the caveat that Sarwar is known to lie about what his intentions are.


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[Paul1642]

This is a good idea. The SNP needs a big offer for the next election that represents some change. The work will need to almost done and the plans fully fleshed out to win people’s confidence it will happen though after previous failures but it def has potential.
Labour currently are offering to keep SNP policies we already have but with the caveat that Sarwar is known to lie about what his intentions are.


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I’m fully supportive of overhauling council tax but I’m cynical of the SNP’s timing, effectively running it as an election pledge, when they have already done so in the past only to then go deafly quiet about it for years.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m fully supportive of overhauling council tax but I’m cynical of the SNP’s timing, effectively running it as an election pledge, when they have already done so in the past only to then go deafly quiet about it for years.

That’s a fair point and this is def being done with an eye on the election. It’s also likely reflects the change from Yousaf to Forbes/Swinney and actually getting real things done instead of a lot of the culture wars nonsense of Yousaf.
One thing for sure is that the vast majority in Scotland think this needs done and will support it until they work out that maybe they are one of the losers from the change.


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[Andy Bee]

I don't know what to make of the voting in Kirky. https://x.com/mgshanks/status/1890307225127641584

Turnout 26.2%, down 18% from last time, SNP supporters still seem to be staying at home. Labour only up 1% but Reform smashing the Tories with 15% of the vote to the Tories 4.1%. If this voting trend continues to 2026 we'll see a shedload of Reform getting in on the list unless SNP change tach on vote 1&2 SNP. Small numbers I know but it should still be a warning.

[Paul1642]

Not a purely SNP issue but the confirmed Edinburgh 25/26 Council Tax raised 8%, Water Charges raised 9.9%

The council have voted to raise council tax by 8% and earlier Scottish Water raised water and waste charges by 9.9% for 25/26

Council Budget headlines 25/26

Investment of £296m in five new schools and five extensions is planned, together with replacement of Fox Covert Campus.

A further £26m will be invested in upgrading our special needs schools.

We are continuing to invest £12.5m this year, and next year, in our pavements, streetscapes, lighting and roads. There’s an additional £5m for Safer Routes to School and other travelling safely initiatives.

There’s £50m investment for purchasing or building suitable temporary accommodation for homeless.

Libraries and Community Centres are hugely valued by our residents and £15m is planned for upgrading and integrating community spaces. We’re committed to keeping our libraries open and we’re investing £15m to replace Blackhall Library

Investment of almost £50m is planned for Health and Social Care facilities, including £5.6m for adaptations to people’s own homes.

there’s additional support of £14m for Adult Health and Social Care in this year’s budget.

They also mentioned in the debate that 3% of the rise will go to pay for the rise in employer National Insurance contributions announced at the UK budget.

Band 25/26 Council Tax 25/26 Council Tax + Water charges 24/25 Council Tax + Water charges
A £1,042.34 £1,442.60 £1,329.39
B £1,216.06 £1,683.03 £1,550.95
C £1,389.79 £1,923.47 £1,772.52
D £1,563.51 £2,163.89 £1,994.08
E £2,054.28 £2,788.09 £2,569.91
F £2,540.70 £3,407.93 £3,141.73
G £3,061.87 £4,062.52 £3,745.71
H £3,830.60 £5,031.39 £4,639.62


A fair increase for some and looks like other councils are in similar ballparks.

I don’t grudge paying the increase because it’s plain to see that the council is in desperate need of cash. Hopefully this raise combined with the imminent tourists tax makes a noticeable difference.

The banding system is of course massively out dated though.

[grunt]

Not a purely SNP issue but the confirmed Edinburgh 25/26 Council Tax raised 8%, Water Charges raised 9.9%.
Not even remotely an SNP issue?

[Ozyhibby]

Not a purely SNP issue but the confirmed Edinburgh 25/26 Council Tax raised 8%, Water Charges raised 9.9%

The council have voted to raise council tax by 8% and earlier Scottish Water raised water and waste charges by 9.9% for 25/26

Council Budget headlines 25/26

Investment of £296m in five new schools and five extensions is planned, together with replacement of Fox Covert Campus.

A further £26m will be invested in upgrading our special needs schools.

We are continuing to invest £12.5m this year, and next year, in our pavements, streetscapes, lighting and roads. There’s an additional £5m for Safer Routes to School and other travelling safely initiatives.

There’s £50m investment for purchasing or building suitable temporary accommodation for homeless.

Libraries and Community Centres are hugely valued by our residents and £15m is planned for upgrading and integrating community spaces. We’re committed to keeping our libraries open and we’re investing £15m to replace Blackhall Library

Investment of almost £50m is planned for Health and Social Care facilities, including £5.6m for adaptations to people’s own homes.

there’s additional support of £14m for Adult Health and Social Care in this year’s budget.

They also mentioned in the debate that 3% of the rise will go to pay for the rise in employer National Insurance contributions announced at the UK budget.

Band25/26 Council Tax25/26 Council Tax + Water charges24/25 Council Tax + Water charges
A£1,042.34£1,442.60£1,329.39
B£1,216.06£1,683.03£1,550.95
C£1,389.79£1,923.47£1,772.52
D£1,563.51£2,163.89£1,994.08
E£2,054.28£2,788.09£2,569.91
F£2,540.70£3,407.93£3,141.73
G£3,061.87£4,062.52£3,745.71
H£3,830.60£5,031.39£4,639.62


A fair increase for some and looks like other councils are in similar ballparks.

I don’t grudge paying the increase because it’s plain to see that the council is in desperate need of cash. Hopefully this raise combined with the imminent tourists tax makes a noticeable difference.

The banding system is of course massively out dated though.

Isn’t Edinburgh a Labour/Tory coalition?


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[Paul1642]

Not even remotely an SNP issue?

To be honest it didn’t seem worthy of a new thread and this seemed the most relevant to shoehorn it into.

It was however very much an SNP issue last year when the Scottish government froze council tax and they could have set a % cap or provided more central money to councils reducing the need for large raises so I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s not a partial SNP issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's completely an SNP issue due to the farcical council tax freeze that wasn't nearly funded. The rises are needed to end the years and of austerity. Hopefully gives councils some breathing space and all councils whatever the party will announce similar rises.

Yes it needs reformed but no party seems to have an idea on how

[Andy Bee]

Not a purely SNP issue but the confirmed Edinburgh 25/26 Council Tax raised 8%, Water Charges raised 9.9%

The council have voted to raise council tax by 8% and earlier Scottish Water raised water and waste charges by 9.9% for 25/26

Council Budget headlines 25/26

Investment of £296m in five new schools and five extensions is planned, together with replacement of Fox Covert Campus.

A further £26m will be invested in upgrading our special needs schools.

We are continuing to invest £12.5m this year, and next year, in our pavements, streetscapes, lighting and roads. There’s an additional £5m for Safer Routes to School and other travelling safely initiatives.

There’s £50m investment for purchasing or building suitable temporary accommodation for homeless.

Libraries and Community Centres are hugely valued by our residents and £15m is planned for upgrading and integrating community spaces. We’re committed to keeping our libraries open and we’re investing £15m to replace Blackhall Library

Investment of almost £50m is planned for Health and Social Care facilities, including £5.6m for adaptations to people’s own homes.

there’s additional support of £14m for Adult Health and Social Care in this year’s budget.

They also mentioned in the debate that 3% of the rise will go to pay for the rise in employer National Insurance contributions announced at the UK budget.

Band 25/26 Council Tax 25/26 Council Tax + Water charges 24/25 Council Tax + Water charges
A £1,042.34 £1,442.60 £1,329.39
B £1,216.06 £1,683.03 £1,550.95
C £1,389.79 £1,923.47 £1,772.52
D £1,563.51 £2,163.89 £1,994.08
E £2,054.28 £2,788.09 £2,569.91
F £2,540.70 £3,407.93 £3,141.73
G £3,061.87 £4,062.52 £3,745.71
H £3,830.60 £5,031.39 £4,639.62


A fair increase for some and looks like other councils are in similar ballparks.

I don’t grudge paying the increase because it’s plain to see that the council is in desperate need of cash. Hopefully this raise combined with the imminent tourists tax makes a noticeable difference.

The banding system is of course massively out dated though.


Trying to work out those bands in todays prices is crazy. I'm thinking a band F must be around the £350 - £500k mark, G around £500 - £650k and H around £600k upwards. We need more bands. There must be people sitting in £2 - £3m houses paying the same as someone in a £600 - £700k house.

[Ozyhibby]

Trying to work out those bands in todays prices is crazy. I'm thinking a band F must be around the £350 - £500k mark, G around £500 - £650k and H around £600k upwards. We need more bands. There must be people sitting in £2 - £3m houses paying the same as someone in a £600 - £700k house.

Even without full reform that should have been done ages ago.
I’m sure I read somewhere that Buckingham Palace pays the same council house tax as a 3 bed in Blackpool.
They should really do it on valuations on property done every 5 years. 1% or so per year.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Trying to work out those bands in todays prices is crazy. I'm thinking a band F must be around the £350 - £500k mark, G around £500 - £650k and H around £600k upwards. We need more bands. There must be people sitting in £2 - £3m houses paying the same as someone in a £600 - £700k house.

https://www.saa.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands/

There you go.



Range of ValuesBandUp to £27,000AOver £27,000 and up to £35,000BOver £35,000 and up to £45,000COver £45,000 and up to £58,000DOver £58,000 and up to £80,000EOver £80,000 and up to £106,000FOver £106,000 and up to £212,000GOver £212,000


34 years ago, I reckon my house, bought in 1989 is worth around 10x it's value then.

[Andy Bee]

Even without full reform that should have been done ages ago.
I’m sure I read somewhere that Buckingham Palace pays the same council house tax as a 3 bed in Blackpool.
They should really do it on valuations on property done every 5 years. 1% or so per year.


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Seen something on that the other day. Buckingham Palace pays less than the average Scottish home.

[Andy Bee]

https://www.saa.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands/

There you go.



Range of ValuesBandUp to £27,000AOver £27,000 and up to £35,000BOver £35,000 and up to £45,000COver £45,000 and up to £58,000DOver £58,000 and up to £80,000EOver £80,000 and up to £106,000FOver £106,000 and up to £212,000GOver £212,000

I used the old values as a reference MY then just used the value and Band of my own home, back of a fag packet stuff but it can't be far out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Seen something on that the other day. Buckingham Palace pays less than the average Scottish home.

A claim circulating in news outlets and on social media that Buckingham Palace pays less council tax than most English households is missing important context. In addition to council tax the palace is also subject to over £800,000 in business rates.

https://fullfact.org/news/buckingham-palace-pay-council-tax/

[Andy Bee]

A claim circulating in news outlets and on social media that Buckingham Palace pays less council tax than most English households is missing important context. In addition to council tax the palace is also subject to over £800,000 in business rates.

https://fullfact.org/news/buckingham-palace-pay-council-tax/

Jeezo they must really be feeling the pinch :rolleyes:

[Andy Bee]

Even without full reform that should have been done ages ago.
I’m sure I read somewhere that Buckingham Palace pays the same council house tax as a 3 bed in Blackpool.
They should really do it on valuations on property done every 5 years. 1% or so per year.


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I suppose there's now plenty average working people in £300k+ houses now, It's certainly the new level for a new home around my way. £3k a year on council tax is going to hurt. Maybe a stepped % like they do with LBTT.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose there's now plenty average working people in £300k+ houses now, It's certainly the new level for a new home around my way. £3k a year on council tax is going to hurt. Maybe a stepped % like they do with LBTT.

I just picked 1% out the air. It could be a bit less so long as it raises enough money. Important thing is wealthy people in huge houses start paying their fair share.


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[grunt]

It's completely an SNP issue due to the farcical council tax freeze that wasn't nearly funded. The rises are needed to end the years and of austerity. Hopefully gives councils some breathing space and all councils whatever the party will announce similar rises.

So what you're saying is everyone should be happy with the Council Tax increases because it remedies the years of Scot Gov CT freeze? In that case well done to the Edinburgh Labour Council for increasing our taxes!

[Stairway 2 7]

So what you're saying is everyone should be happy with the Council Tax increases because it remedies the years of Scot Gov CT freeze? In that case well done to the Edinburgh Labour Council for increasing our taxes!

No one is happy with council tax rises but if you don't want recession they need raised in a major way, pick your poison. SNP councils will raise in the same way so it's silly to blame each party that's putting it up. It should never have been frozen all they years it makes no sense cutting the council tax budget each year.

Scottish people also pay more income tax than UK and actually I do say well done SNP on raising our tax as it's necessary

[Ozyhibby]

No one is happy with council tax rises but if you don't want recession they need raised in a major way, pick your poison. SNP councils will raise in the same way so it's silly to blame each party that's putting it up. It should never have been frozen all they years it makes no sense cutting the council tax budget each year.

Scottish people also pay more income tax than UK and actually I do say well done SNP on raising our tax as it's necessary

Scottish council tax is much lower than England?
And I doubt more tax helps stave off recession?


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[grunt]

No one is happy with council tax rises but if you don't want recession they need raised in a major way, pick your poison.
You're going to have to help me out here. What's the link between Council Tax and recession?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Trying to work out those bands in todays prices is crazy. I'm thinking a band F must be around the £350 - £500k mark, G around £500 - £650k and H around £600k upwards. We need more bands. There must be people sitting in £2 - £3m houses paying the same as someone in a £600 - £700k house.

Totally agree. If Council Tax is to stay we need more bands and updated based on today's pricing. It shouldn't be that hard to do given tools exist like Zoopla etc for estimating market value. I'm currently in a band G house, yet there are houses in the same town that recently sold for 3x what we paid for ours that are also band G. I'm in a new build estate where there are two identical house types, both moved in on same day and both paid £343k. One of the houses is band F and the other is band G...go figure. System is a total mess.

The reality is that if there was a political will to reform council tax it could be done fairly quickly.

[Stairway 2 7]

Scottish council tax is much lower than England?
And I doubt more tax helps stave off recession?


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Sorry I meant austerity it was too early. Freezing the tax and not funding it means cuts in real terms. Council tax gets spent usually on the bottom up unlike other taxes, so it really hurts the most disadvantaged.

It needs reformed but if it isn't then Council tax freezing is horrendous.

[hibee]

Totally agree. If Council Tax is to stay we need more bands and updated based on today's pricing. It shouldn't be that hard to do given tools exist like Zoopla etc for estimating market value. I'm currently in a band G house, yet there are houses in the same town that recently sold for 3x what we paid for ours that are also band G. I'm in a new build estate where there are two identical house types, both moved in on same day and both paid £343k. One of the houses is band F and the other is band G...go figure. System is a total mess.

The reality is that if there was a political will to reform council tax it could be done fairly quickly.

Two identical houses in different bands is surely just a mistake which can be rectified rather than it being anything to do with the system, one of them will be incorrect.

I’ve not read up on the SNP proposals for reform or if they even have any but I totally disagree with it being based on the value of a home.

Two people living in a large house will have access to the same council services as two people living in a small house.

[lapsedhibee]

Two identical houses in different bands is surely just a mistake which can be rectified rather than it being anything to do with the system, one of them will be incorrect.

I’ve not read up on the SNP proposals for reform or if they even have any but I totally disagree with it being based on the value of a home.

Two people living in a large house will have access to the same council services as two people living in a small house.

Didn't we already try a flat rate council tax, and people didn't like it? IIRC there was actual rioting in Scotland when Thatcher introduced it.

[Andy Bee]

Two identical houses in different bands is surely just a mistake which can be rectified rather than it being anything to do with the system, one of them will be incorrect.

I’ve not read up on the SNP proposals for reform or if they even have any but I totally disagree with it being based on the value of a home.

Two people living in a large house will have access to the same council services as two people living in a small house.

Using that argument all people working 40 hours should be paid the same or all people should be taxed the same amount. Tax needs to be progressive and council tax isn't progressive enough at the moment. Personally I'd just have a land tax.

[Ozyhibby]

Two identical houses in different bands is surely just a mistake which can be rectified rather than it being anything to do with the system, one of them will be incorrect.

I’ve not read up on the SNP proposals for reform or if they even have any but I totally disagree with it being based on the value of a home.

Two people living in a large house will have access to the same council services as two people living in a small house.

Big fan of the Poll Tax were you?


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[hibee]

Didn't we already try a flat rate council tax, and people didn't like it? IIRC there was actual rioting in Scotland when Thatcher introduced it.


Big fan of the Poll Tax were you?


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When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

[Ozyhibby]

When I was typing that I knew the poll tax would be brought up and obviously I’ve heard it wasn’t very popular [emoji3] but I would have been at school so don’t have any real memory of it so have no real sense of how much it would cost me nowadays or if I’m better off with council tax!

I still don’t think for example two pensioners with the same income should pay different amounts for the same service purely based on the value of the house they probably worked hard all their life to pay for but I don’t know what the solution is.

I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.
Taxing property based on value is done in many countries all over the world. Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?
The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.


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[hibee]

I was on a YTS training scheme that paid £27.30 a week and my poll tax was £600 per annum.


I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.


Do you really think a person living in Ravelston Dykes should pay the same as a person in Muirhouse?


Yes, same council, same services provided.



The worked hard all their life to pay for argument is nonsense. Do people in small houses not work hard? If this society is good to you and you prosper then you should expect to pay more.


In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

[Ozyhibby]

I can see why people would complain about that, clearly not implemented fairly.



Yes, same council, same services provided.



In your opinion it’s nonsense but not in mine, society doesn’t generally give people bigger houses for free.

Of course people in small houses work hard, if two people worked the same job all their life, earned the same, and now have the same income with no savings they should pay the same council tax if the only difference between them is how they chose to spend their own money when they were working.

You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

[Paul1642]

Why is there different levels of income tax when we all use the same police NHS etc. Because in almost every civilised society people realise some can afford more than others to get a livable society for all

I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

[RyeSloan]

You don’t think a big house with a massive garden and many bathrooms uses more public services? Who cuts all those nice trees up Ravelston Dykes, clears the leaves etc?


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Fact is though that the vast majority of the council costs come from two areas. Education and Social Care.

Arguing over who uses more based on size of house or where they stay is rather pointless.

The Council Tax aka Property taxes are highly effective tax in terms of what percentage is received v expected. It’s also a very stable tax as it’s based on an unmovable asset.

It therefore makes a lot of sense for local councils to levy a property tax.

The problem is that the system has been left to decay to the point that it’s now rather distorted. This has reduced its progressiveness and is clearly now not fit for purpose.

Debate will rage as to what could or should replace it but in the meantime it’s beyond me why they don’t just start by refreshing the valuations and bands to fix some of the existing issues with the existing system.

Done correctly I’m sure that would raise some additional revenue as well as being ‘fairer’.

That would at least buy some time to allow the politicians to finally get around to trying to discuss what might be seen as a sensible replacement (maybe!)

[BSEJVT]

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

[Ozyhibby]

I was about to reply with almost exactly this but seen you’ve beat me to it.

To set a flat rate of council tax for all would increase the amount drastically for those least well off whilst decreasing it drastically for those most well off, so to keep it simple, it’s definitely not the solution.

In the absence of a better solution, maybe just resetting the band based on 2025 values rather than 1991 values would be a good start.

My personal opinion would be a % of the properties value, however not 1% as suggested above. Maybe somewhere between 0.5% - 0.75%.

Both solutions have the issue of how we value so many properties though, and the ongoing issue of keeping it up to date.

Maybe an element of factoring in the number of adult occupants too. We already have the single person discount but arguably a property with 2 adults should also pay less than one with 5.

Finally, students should not be exempt from council tax IMO, simply subject to a discount. They use a the services in the same way as anyone else.

Aren’t we trying to get older people to downsize? Giving a discount for one person living in a 5 bed house seems counter productive. It’s encouraging an inefficient use of resources.
Happy for Students to have it free because their source of income is borrowing from the govt. It would be a bit mad to tax them on money they have borrowed.


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[Ozyhibby]

I think the perception of any tax depends to a large extent on how it affects the person paying it and their ability to do so.

It is entirely possible in theory to take an altruistic approach to determining equitable taxation, but harder to maintain that altruism, when its effects really begin to bite on you.

That ability to meet taxation changes through the years for a number of reasons, e.g.:

Starting work on a low salary with little free income

Career progression providing more free income

Cohabitating with spouse providing yet more free income

Children coming along obliterating free income

Gradual Recovery of free income

Peak Free income years post children

Retirement.

As someone in the latter category, I have experienced all these things with some easier to navigate through than others.

I would though say the 2 most difficult are the children obliterating free income stage and Retirement.

As most others will have done at our stage of life we worked bloody hard over 40 plus years to afford the house we currently live in.

We now pay more in Council Tax than our highest-ever mortgage payment at a time when we have lower income than in the last 20 years and little ability to do anything to change that.

We love our house, but are now in a race to the bottom to see whether either we or our Retirement Income/Savings run out first.

I also think that one of the great irony's is that moving down does not release nearly as much cash as you may expect by the time fees, taxes and the need to bring the smaller house up to standard are factored in.

If it is the latter we will need to sell and move down and that doesn't seem right to me, especially at a time when our consumption of local authority provided services is likely at an all time low. Fully accept though that paying as you use said services is completely unworkable so we are where we are on that point.

I am in favour of progressive taxation, but it seems that that only works one way (in an upwards direction) and there is no counterpart to that when your ability to pay lessens on anything other than Income Tax and NI, that is you earn less so you pay less or in the case of NI nothing.

LBTT should not be levied on people downsizing. IMHO.


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[Hibs4185]

Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

[Ozyhibby]

Someone above made a very good point.

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.

Implemenring it may be tricky as you’d maybe need your house valued every year but I’m sure there would be a way to do it.

Seems fair and sensible to me

A new valuation every 5 years should be enough.


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[grunt]

Change the system so it’s based on the property value. Charge a certain percentage every year. If you live in a £100k flat or a £2 million mansion then you pay proportionally.

Edinburgh especially must be worth billions in properties, if you can afford a big house you can afford a bigger council tax.
So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

[Ozyhibby]

So if the value of my home increases through no action of mine, I end up paying more CT even though my own circumstances - and income - may have stayed the same? If the increase in property values continues, I may end up not being able to afford to live in my own home?

The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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[Stairway 2 7]

The govt can adjust every year how much of a percentage it takes. If prices are rising they can drop the percentage.
But if the price of your home has gone up by the govt putting in a new tram line near you then of course you will be expected to pay more because you have made a gain at the publics expense.

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It would also perhaps incentivize people to downsize who have spare bedrooms. Things aren't sustainable as is a generation comfortable with huge homes and another generation coming through that will never own a home so pay expensive rents and were back to families sharing bedrooms, sometimes adults with their kids


David Milner
@djjmilner
·
20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31

[grunt]

David Milner
@djjmilner
·
20h
The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.

56! This is up, staggeringly, from 45 in 2021

In 1981 the median age was 31
"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

[Stairway 2 7]

"The average age of a median homebuyer ..." is meaningless twaddle.

And those figures are from a US publication, not UK.

It's complete bollocks.

It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

[Andy Bee]

It's meaningless on its own but the trends are clear there is a home ownership crisis for the youth.

Between 2006 and 2024, the proportion of 25- to 34-year-olds living with their parents increased a third from 13% to 18% 450,000 more

The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35

In 1998 35% of 25 to 35 yo's it was 55 by 2020.

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that

It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not so much people with £400k houses, there's huge amounts of tax left on the table for people with properties above £600 - £700k. People with a £700k property pay around £3.3k, people with a £2m property pay the same £3.3k. We need a completely new system or at the very least we need revaluations and more bands.

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

[Keith_M]

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?


I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

[Ozyhibby]

Take property out of the equation and introduce a local income tax?

Then you are taxing work not wealth?


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[Ozyhibby]

I'd almost be in favour of that, were it not for the fact that the richest in society usually earn their money outside of the PAYE system.

They already avoid paying a fair share of their earnings in taxes through various schemes, such as income earned through companies based abroad and other such wheezes. This would just give them another get out clause.

Yip. You can’t hide property.


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[hibee]

10,360 Scottish kids are counted as homeless up from 6,600 2018, a national disgrace. If people with 400k houses have to pay a bit more to help reduce that number then I can live with that


That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

[Stairway 2 7]

That’s the price of a normal family home these days, families living in these houses are not millionaires and shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s kids.

They should be going after the millionaires with multiple homes more and leaving normal families alone as they’re already paying more than enough tax.

Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

[Andy Bee]

Everyone wants other people to pay. I pay more in Scotland than I would in England and I think I definitely pay too little. Of course tax should be top heavy but everyone including "normal families" should pay what in reality would be a tiny bit more for Scottish kids not to be homeless

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

[Stairway 2 7]

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

I completely agree raise the % every 50k past 400k

[hibee]

10931 homes worth £1m+ in Scotland according to Savills, an eye watering 71% increase since 2019 and a lot in Edinburgh. Granted a lot will be homes already existing with the values going up but it's still pretty shocking that CT is calculated with the highest value band homes being £212k.

The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

[Andy Bee]

The highest value band is a house that would have been valued at £212k in April 1991 though, in todays money that’s a house worth £770k so we’d only need one more band from £275k for that to catch all the £1m homes today.

I've just had a flick through zoopla and this is CT band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69476215/?search_identifier=0be9b24ead71616e2635fd27ec56f3c 97d3ad27d11048265be730071c100fbd1

And there's plenty more like it. It aint as simple as sticking another band on.

CT band F

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/67571123/?search_identifier=ee1e778ae5508154a84c3606c78f0a6 d16fc8ef8feee18efb73742daf57d519e

6 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms and 4 reception rooms Offers over £2.2m CT Band G

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/69480204/?search_identifier=ee1e778ae5508154a84c3606c78f0a6 d16fc8ef8feee18efb73742daf57d519e

WTAF

[Moulin Yarns]

There are at least 22 houses in my postcode, every one is different. Valuations according to zoopla range from £275,500 (2021) to 780,000 (2014)

[grunt]

The average age of a median homebuyer in the UK is now 56.


The average age of a first time buyer was 26 in 1997 it's now 35
I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

Not all homebuyers are first time buyers, so no contradiction?

[grunt]

Not all homebuyers are first time buyers, so no contradiction?
Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

If people are buying their first home at an older age I guess it tells us that home ownership is becoming more difficult?


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[Andy Bee]

Perhaps contradiction was not the right word, nonetheless I remain confused. I don't really understand the first statistic (which related to the US in any case). I've yet to receive an explanation for what a "median homebuyer" is. If the stat just means that people buying all homes - whether their first or twenty-first - are getting older, then I'm not sure what that tells us?

Average age for a first time buyer is between 32 and 35 depending where you read it, it's rising though. They're either renting or staying with parents up to that age which I suppose will also effect population growth. In the case of people in living wage jobs I don't see how they would ever get on the housing ladder which also raises the question of future pensions, how do they survive on state pension and pay rent?

[grunt]

If people are buying their first home at an older age I guess it tells us that home ownership is becoming more difficult?
Your post did not state that the stats you provided related to first time buyers ...

And if that is what you meant, the numbers are clearly gibberish.

[Ozyhibby]

Your post did not state that the stats you provided related to first time buyers ...

And if that is what you meant, the numbers are clearly gibberish.

Wasn’t my post?[emoji2369]


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[Stairway 2 7]

I'm getting a bit confused by the contradictory numbers you keep posting. I agree with your overll premise, that there is a home ownership problem for young people today, but your headline grabbing posts are not helping to make your case.

None of the numbers are contradictory they are complimentary. In every metric the average age is increasing by a decade. First time buyer, age people leaving home average age of houses bought. They don't mean anything on their own but there is a clear trend. It's not complicated as it's obvious and alarming how high the rises are.

[grunt]

None of the numbers are contradictory they are complimentary. Well thank you for that.

[lapsedhibee]

Well thank you for that.
:tsk tsk:

[jamie_1875]

https://x.com/AuditorGenScot/status/1895030093891731696?t=9k9BjR83qNORBa6exfOMPA&s=19

"40 per cent of pupils in Scotland’s state schools receive additional support for their learning.

But the Scottish Government failed to plan for the impacts of an inclusive approach to ASL."

This is a really difficult subject as I think any government would struggle to meet the needs of every single child, so yes the SNP are in power but I think this would be a challenge for any party in government.

I have to say I have a child with ASL and actually I can't fault the support he gets, so he is perhaps one of the lucky ones.

This should be a priority for all parties in the run up to the 2026 elections.

[Berwickhibby]

I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.

[grunt]

I have to say I have a child with ASL and actually I can't fault the support he gets, so he is perhaps one of the lucky ones.


I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.
Good to hear positive feedback such as this.

[Ozyhibby]

I have to agree, my grandson is autistic but the support he has received in his education has been exemplary.


Good to hear positive feedback such as this.

The interesting thing about education is that while there are frequent reports of its shortcomings, whenever parents are asked about their kids own school they usually answer that they are very happy with and think it is doing a great job.


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[jamie_1875]

The interesting thing about education is that while there are frequent reports of its shortcomings, whenever parents are asked about their kids own school they usually answer that they are very happy with and think it is doing a great job.


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I have heard some complete horror stories as well where kids are being really badly let down. I think in my case my son has a formal diagnosis, that opens doors and unlocks funding. There are kids waiting years for a diagnosis though. There are plenty of kids being let down through no fault of the teacher or school, the teacher has a class of 30 and if nearly half require additional support it causes lots of issues as the kids who don't need support are not reaching their potential and the kids who do need it are not getting it in a formal way.

I would like to see all parties come together on this and share ideas and suggestions on how to improve it, as the report says the Scottish Government have failed here.

[grunt]

Nicola Sturgeon has announced she is standing down from Scottish politics.

The former first minister has revealed she will not contest next year’s Holyrood election, in confirmation that had long been expected following her resignation as SNP leader two years ago.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Nicola Sturgeon has announced she is standing down from Scottish politics.

The former first minister has revealed she will not contest next year’s Holyrood election, in confirmation that had long been expected following her resignation as SNP leader two years ago.

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

[Ozyhibby]

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

Maybe operation branch form will finally go for a prosecution?


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[JimBHibees]

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

Huge loss to the parliament

[GlesgaeHibby]

Huge loss to the parliament

In what sense? She's barely spoke in parliament in the last two years.

[Berwickhibby]

No surprise, and no loss. She's barely done anything to justify picking up a wage as an MSP since standing down as FM.

Agreed …absolute wage thief …along with a few others from various party’s

[jamie_1875]

Huge loss to the parliament

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

[Hibs4185]

Maybe operation branch form will finally go for a prosecution?


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Aye the day before the polls open next year no doubt.

Not insinuating that all the delays are politically motivated at all

[JimBHibees]

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

Probably her election record and leadership of her party.

[Hibrandenburg]

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

Keeping the SNP to the left of centre and mitigating against several unfair UK government policies.

Looking at the current Labour government, the SNP are the nearest thing we have to a socialist party, that's mainly down to Sturgeon's leadership.

[jamie_1875]

Keeping the SNP to the left of centre and mitigating against several unfair UK government policies.

Looking at the current Labour government, the SNP are the nearest thing we have to a socialist party, that's mainly down to Sturgeon's leadership.

Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-first-minister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-first-minister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.

I think my point was a valid one and maybe if she didn't have to divert so much money, then her record on education might have been better.

[Jack]

What's her greatest political achievement achieved through the parliament?

From a personal perspective, when the SNP came to power and she became the Cabinet Secretary for Health she led a mini revolution in the NHS in Scotland.

Scotland made its own path then and I wouldn't be the only one to suggest that led to the Scottish NHS outperforming it's neighbours since then. I was speaking with the head of the NHS in England at a UK medical conference about the merits of the different systems a few years after the divergence. After a fair discussion I asked him 'bottom line, where would you prefer to be if you were ill?' "Scotland" he said!

If only the NHS (UK wide, even the not as good England and Wales) was as good now as it was then.

[grunt]

Fair enough but I was meaning more something she did with the powers she had that didn't involve giving stuff or money away. Education was what she asked to be judged on, not sure she passed that one and it probably depends on which set of stats you use.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-first-minister-34844455

Probably a fair summary above.
LOL

That Daily Record article is virtually unreadable due to the ads on the page. And when you do get to the article itself, it's a list of disjointed comments that look like they've been compiled by AI. Phrases like "failed miserably" have no place in a fact and context free piece like that. A complete waste of my time looking at it. If that's considered to be a "fair summary" then we're all doomed. Please don't post links to the Daily Record again.

[jamie_1875]

LOL

That Daily Record article is virtually unreadable due to the ads on the page. And when you do get to the article itself, it's a list of disjointed comments that look like they've been compiled by AI. Phrases like "failed miserably" have no place in a fact and context free piece like that. A complete waste of my time looking at it. If that's considered to be a "fair summary" then we're all doomed. Please don't post links to the Daily Record again.

Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.

[grunt]

Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.
I read it because you said it was a fair summary. It was not. It was a hack job by someone with a longstanding dislike of Scottish independence, Sturgeon and the SNP. He couldn't be fair about her if his life depended on it.

[jamie_1875]

I read it because you said it was a fair summary. It was not. It was a hack job by someone with a longstanding dislike of Scottish independence, Sturgeon and the SNP. He couldn't be fair about her if his life depended on it.

Opinions eh! I thought it was fair.

[Ozyhibby]

Just don't read them! And it was an opinion piece and lots of people believe she did fail miserably.

Not that many as she kept winning elections. [emoji6]


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[Hibs4185]

From a personal perspective, when the SNP came to power and she became the Cabinet Secretary for Health she led a mini revolution in the NHS in Scotland.

Scotland made its own path then and I wouldn't be the only one to suggest that led to the Scottish NHS outperforming it's neighbours since then. I was speaking with the head of the NHS in England at a UK medical conference about the merits of the different systems a few years after the divergence. After a fair discussion I asked him 'bottom line, where would you prefer to be if you were ill?' "Scotland" he said!

If only the NHS (UK wide, even the not as good England and Wales) was as good now as it was then.

My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

[Jack]

My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

That reflects in the NHS too. In Scotland there's collaboration between different parts of the NHS and other agencies. It works well the vast majority of the time.

In England there's 'competition' between different parts of the NHS AND private healthcare providers. The NHS Trusts don't trust each other.

[Berwickhibby]

My wife is a teacher who specialises in kids who need additional support. Up here, all the relevant departments share the info and speak to each other.

In England, all the departments don’t, therefore making it much more difficult to identify examples of abuse etc.

It’s not perfect in Scotland but we have a joined up system which is far better at helping the individuals that need it more efficiently

Strangely, that’s not my experience in Berwick, there was a monthly meeting where departments and various organisations, ie police, social services, children’s services, mental health, housing, licensing, youth project, schools, child protection etc would discuss and deal with issues to ensure that anybody in need of intervention was highlighted and the correct service was allocated tasks and report back. The protocol was that all information was provided.

[Keith_M]

Strangely, that’s not my experience in Berwick, there was a monthly meeting where departments and various organisations, ie police, social services, children’s services, mental health, housing, licensing, youth project, schools, child protection etc would discuss and deal with issues to ensure that anybody in need of intervention was highlighted and the correct service was allocated tasks and report back. The protocol was that all information was provided.


Yeah but we all know that Berwick is really part of Scotland

:wink:

[Berwickhibby]

Yeah but we all know that Berwick is really part of Scotland

:wink:

Should be Capital of Berwickshire…. Changed hands 14 times

[Hibrandenburg]

Should be Capital of Berwickshire…. Changed hands 14 times

Berwick should never have made peace with Moscow then they would still have been too afraid to invade Ukraine.

[Berwickhibby]

Berwick should never have made peace with Moscow then they would still have been too afraid to invade Ukraine.

:greengrin:greengrin always a great tale to tell about the town

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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[Hiber-nation]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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No idea how they think Curtice is still relevant. We went to a lecture of his about 10 years ago and it was dire, took us all our time not to walk out.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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"Sky News has learned that there are currently 10 senior officers working on the case"


I thought the investigation was complete and it was now with the CPS??

[Ozyhibby]

"Sky News has learned that there are currently 10 senior officers working on the case"


I thought the investigation was complete and it was now with the CPS??

It’s no wonder that white collar crime goes unpunished so much. The SNP is tiny with only about 20 employees involved yet police Scotland can’t work out if any money is missing after two years and £2m+ spent investigating.


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[grunt]

It’s no wonder that white collar crime goes unpunished so much. The SNP is tiny with only about 20 employees involved yet police Scotland can’t work out if any money is missing after two years and £2m+ spent investigating.
Was that the charge? I thought it was about money not being spent for the intended purpose? The auditors didn't flag up any missing money.

[jamie_1875]

Was that the charge? I thought it was about money not being spent for the intended purpose? The auditors didn't flag up any missing money.

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

[grunt]

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. Ok thanks.

It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.Isn't the delay due to CoPFS deciding whether there's a case to answer?

[hibee]

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.

[Ozyhibby]

Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.

And sturgeon officially cleared.


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[Andy Bee]

And sturgeon officially cleared.


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Along with Colin Beattie, "no longer under investigation"

[Ozyhibby]

Along with Colin Beattie, "no longer under investigation"

Easily stretch it another year before a trial.


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[Andy Bee]

Easily stretch it another year before a trial.


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Yup, this is just the start of it. It's gonna be a long year. No point checking the BBC TV guide for the foreseeable, wall to wall Murrell.

[Ozyhibby]

Swinney should move sharply clearing out Police Scotland before they come for him. Two SNP first ministers investigated and no convictions to show for it. Millions of pounds spent and police hours wasted.


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[grunt]

Perfectly timed post, he’s appeared in court today charged with embezzlement.
Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

[hibee]

Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

How would I know?

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

When is the Scottish election?


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[Andy Bee]

Swinney should move sharply clearing out Police Scotland before they come for him. Two SNP first ministers investigated and no convictions to show for it. Millions of pounds spent and police hours wasted.


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With a name like Honest John they've no chance of snaring big John, he's beyond reproach :agree::greengrin

[jamie_1875]

But what happened to the plot to get Sturgeon? Surely if this was a big set up to get to the SNP and damage Independence they would have charged her as well as that would have been headline grabbing stuff in the run up to 2026 election.

If Murrell is found guilty is it still a big plot?

[grunt]

How would I know?
You're new to this social media thing, eh?

[grunt]

But what happened to the plot to get Sturgeon? Surely if this was a big set up to get to the SNP and damage Independence they would have charged her as well as that would have been headline grabbing stuff in the run up to 2026 election.

If Murrell is found guilty is it still a big plot?
You don't think the blue tents, the four year investigation, the constant coverage in the BBC and the Daily Record, the arrest and the thousands of comments on social media about her likely guilt have had sufficient impact?

[jamie_1875]

You don't think the blue tents, the four year investigation, the constant coverage in the BBC and the Daily Record, the arrest and the thousands of comments on social media about her likely guilt have had sufficient impact?

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

[Stairway 2 7]

When is the Scottish election?


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Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her

[lapsedhibee]

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

If there was a plot the end game would be to damage or ideally get rid of the SNP, not one individual in it.

[jamie_1875]

If there was a plot the end game would be to damage or ideally get rid of the SNP, not one individual in it.

It's failed then, the SNP still ahead in the polls and support for Indy hasn't changed. The plotters were just rubbish at their job perhaps.

Maybe it wasn't a plot and Murrell was a bad boy, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[grunt]

Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her
Apparently has the world record for largest ever theft from a government - estimates between $5 and $10billion dollars. Are you suggesting that Murrell's embezzlement is of similar scale?

[Ozyhibby]

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

They didn’t need to and there was no evidence. They got her with the investigation. This was 100% successful.


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[Ozyhibby]

Does that not all seem a bit tin hat now the first ministers husband has been charged by the PF. Or do you think the PF with to cabinet members as it's head, are part of the shenanigans. If he gets guilty will you say fair play he was up to no good, this correctly was a huge story and would be front page news for years in any country it happened?

The Spanish PMs wifes corruption has multiple articles on the BBC over the last year and I was born after Imelda Marcos was robbing money but I know about her

The same PF found to have been guilty of malicious prosecution already?


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[jamie_1875]

They didn’t need to and there was no evidence. They got her with the investigation. This was 100% successful.


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I don't think you can know three was no evidence, plenty of people are not charged as perhaps the evidence isn't strong enough to get a conviction so unless you have inside information you can't be sure there was no evidence at all.
But my point being if this was a plot the plotters are pretty rubbish as surely charging her and having a court case would cause maximum damage to the SNP, for some reason only known to the plotters they have decided not to do that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Apparently has the world record for largest ever theft from a government - estimates between $5 and $10billion dollars. Are you suggesting that Murrell's embezzlement is of similar scale?

The last sentence you just made up. The Spanish PMs wife was small scale corruption but I've seen it all over the UK press for a year now, because it's a huge story, or are they out to get the Spanish PM 😆. The South Korean PMs wife was meant to have been given a free designer handbag and it was worldwide news BBC, Time magazine, CNN etc.

The husband of our FM getting charged with embezzlement is massive news and would be the main headline in any country in the world. If people don't agree with that I don't think they are being impartial

[Ozyhibby]

The last sentence you just made up. The Spanish PMs wife was small scale corruption but I've seen it all over the UK press for a year now, because it's a huge story, or are they out to get the Spanish PM [emoji38]. The South Korean PMs wife was meant to have been given a free designer handbag and it was worldwide news BBC, Time magazine, CNN etc.

The husband of our FM getting charged with embezzlement is massive news and would be the main headline in any country in the world. If people don't agree with that I don't think they are being impartial

Were those cases guilty? Not fussed about Murrel but the investigation of Sturgeon stinks of being politically motivated.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Were those cases guilty? Not fussed about Murrel but the investigation of Sturgeon stinks of being politically motivated.


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The Spanish PMs wife's case hasn't reached court yet a year later.

That sounds a Trumpian. You can't just say you aren't bothered about Murrel he was the first ministers husband of course she would be investing too, one as being his wife so usually privy to some of his finances and two the head of the party he's accused of embezzling.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think you can know three was no evidence, plenty of people are not charged as perhaps the evidence isn't strong enough to get a conviction so unless you have inside information you can't be sure there was no evidence at all.
But my point being if this was a plot the plotters are pretty rubbish as surely charging her and having a court case would cause maximum damage to the SNP, for some reason only known to the plotters they have decided not to do that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250320/8d352cd07315445d1c2d80936a6c1858.jpg
If there was evidence surely they would have shown it to her?


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[Smartie]

The thing that most dissuades me from this being some sort of a conspiracy is the fact that iirc it started out as a "nat on nat" squabble that the police seemed very hesitant to get involved with.

Eventually, after having been harangued by the aggrieved parties they agreed to look into it and it has led us here.

Obviously there is the split in the SNP that happened and that could be considered to an extent to be "political motivation" but it's not as seductive as the idea of the British state taking out significant figures within the independence movement - which doesn't really add up as being relevant to the actual issues at stake here?

[jamie_1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250320/8d352cd07315445d1c2d80936a6c1858.jpg
If there was evidence surely they would have shown it to her?


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So if it's a plot why was there no evidence?

[Ozyhibby]

So if it's a plot why was there no evidence?

They didn’t need any. Look at the damage they done without it. Splendid effort.


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[Ozyhibby]

The thing that most dissuades me from this being some sort of a conspiracy is the fact that iirc it started out as a "nat on nat" squabble that the police seemed very hesitant to get involved with.

Eventually, after having been harangued by the aggrieved parties they agreed to look into it and it has led us here.

Obviously there is the split in the SNP that happened and that could be considered to an extent to be "political motivation" but it's not as seductive as the idea of the British state taking out significant figures within the independence movement - which doesn't really add up as being relevant to the actual issues at stake here?

I doubt the British state are involved. I suspect this is home grown here in Scotland.


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[Hibs4185]

There can be no doubt that the case is politically motivated. I have a feeling it will be another Salmond type case with a not guilty at the end.

Not a big fan of Murrell anyway but no way he was stupid enough to steal party money. Maybe he was, we’ll soon find out at trail.

What can’t be denied is the length of time it’s taken to get here and also the time it will take to get to court. Far more serious crimes have had far less resources spent on them. That is no coincidence.

Can I imagine the PF’s office having an agenda? Quite frankly yes, you just have to look at Rangers Football Club RIP.

[jamie_1875]

They didn’t need any. Look at the damage they done without it. Splendid effort.


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What damage, the SNP are leading in the polls and support for Independence is unchanged, wasn't support for Indy actually higher in the last poll?

Pretty rubbish plot if you ask me, they should all be fired for failing miserably.

[JimBHibees]

If there was a plot the end game would be to damage or ideally get rid of the SNP, not one individual in it.

They know mud sticks all about damaging reputations

[Smartie]

There can be no doubt that the case is politically motivated. I have a feeling it will be another Salmond type case with a not guilty at the end.

Not a big fan of Murrell anyway but no way he was stupid enough to steal party money. Maybe he was, we’ll soon find out at trail.

What can’t be denied is the length of time it’s taken to get here and also the time it will take to get to court. Far more serious crimes have had far less resources spent on them. That is no coincidence.

Can I imagine the PF’s office having an agenda? Quite frankly yes, you just have to look at Rangers Football Club RIP.

It feels very similar to the Salmond affair... when the whole thing had to operate in secret, behind closed doors, little info ever really seemed to reach the public domain, it took up a massive quantity of public resource, the supposed guilty party turned out to be innocent although the reputational damage was very much done.

[Ozyhibby]

What damage, the SNP are leading in the polls and support for Independence is unchanged, wasn't support for Indy actually higher in the last poll?

Pretty rubbish plot if you ask me, they should all be fired for failing miserably.

Your contention is that it did not hurt the SNP? Or Sturgeon?[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.sky.com/story/bluesky-13332075

Must keep this going to help Labour.[emoji849]


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This aged well! 😉

[jamie_1875]

Your contention is that it did not hurt the SNP? Or Sturgeon?[emoji23]


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It's been a rubbish plot, I would have planted the evidence and then had the court case starting just as the 2026 elections were happening to give it maximum publicly. I would have made sure the guilty verdict was delivered the day before polling. 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

It's been a rubbish plot, I would have planted the evidence and then had the court case starting just as the 2026 elections were happening to give it maximum publicly. I would have made sure the guilty verdict was delivered the day before polling. 😂

I think there's a flaw in this that I think there's possibly a law that prevents court cases involving political parties and elections going on at the same time.

[jamie_1875]

I think there's a flaw in this that I think there's possibly a law that prevents court cases involving political parties and elections going on at the same time.

What law is than then, what's it called?

There are local elections all the time so how would that work, surely people are prosecuted as individuals?

[Hibs4185]

There can be no doubt that the case is politically motivated. I have a feeling it will be another Salmond type case with a not guilty at the end.

Not a big fan of Murrell anyway but no way he was stupid enough to steal party money. Maybe he was, we’ll soon find out at trail.

What can’t be denied is the length of time it’s taken to get here and also the time it will take to get to court. Far more serious crimes have had far less resources spent on them. That is no coincidence.

Can I imagine the PF’s office having an agenda? Quite frankly yes, you just have to look at Rangers Football Club RIP.

[silverhibee]

Thanks for posting. When do we find out how much he's alleged to have embezzled?

Closed court so no one knows.

[Stairway 2 7]

John Swinney says its now clear the SNP may have been the victim of an embezzlement and the issue needs to be addressed by the courts.

Fair play he's no going down the American politics route of injustices, cover ups and it being politically motivated.

[lapsedhibee]

What damage, the SNP are leading in the polls and support for Independence is unchanged, wasn't support for Indy actually higher in the last poll?

Pretty rubbish plot if you ask me, they should all be fired for failing miserably.

Did you notice the SNP did quite badly at the last election?

[Ozyhibby]

John Swinney says its now clear the SNP may have been the victim of an embezzlement and the issue needs to be addressed by the courts.

Fair play he's no going down the American politics route of injustices, cover ups and it being politically motivated.

I’ve always said if there was wrong doing then the SNP is the victim here. And if Murrell is guilty then so be it. The arrest of Sturgeon was entirely without evidence though.


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[silverhibee]

Appeared in court on petition and if it goes to trial it will be before a jury.

[jamie_1875]

People seem to forget a SNP treasurer resigned as Murrell never let him get full access to the books, I mean that's a pretty big red flag right there in plain sight.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57299030.amp

I doubt Douglas Chapman was in on it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Appeared in court on petition and if it goes to trial it will be before a jury.

Aye, imagine getting an impartial jury of his peers!!

🤣

[allmodcons]

Murrell was charged with embezzlement so it's moved on. It's taking a ridiculous amount of time, he was charged nearly a year ago and no sign of a court date.

My understanding is that embezzlement can be a misappropriation of funds.

That is spending money on something or another when an individual doesn’t have the authority to do so.

[Kato]

What damage, the SNP are leading in the polls and support for Independence is unchanged, wasn't support for Indy actually higher in the last poll?

Pretty rubbish plot if you ask me, they should all be fired for failing miserably.

Can you quantify "failing miserably".

Without the charges against Sturgeon, the tent, the headlines, the constant flow of social media outrage, the irritant of it being mentioned in every discussion by an SNP representative on TV, maybe support for the SNP/independence would be even higher than it is.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Aye, imagine getting an impartial jury of his peers!!

🤣

Low opinion of Scots. Salmond got not guilty and I'm confident the jury will go with the evidence

[Berwickhibby]

I’ve always said if there was wrong doing then the SNP is the victim here. And if Murrell is guilty then so be it. The arrest of Sturgeon was entirely without evidence though.


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How do you know, the threshold test for arrest is a lot less than for charge. Obviously as one of the named account holders there were questions needed to be asked under caution.

[cabbageandribs1875]

(1) Jolyon Maugham: "Oh look, now her political career is over, the police have dropped their investigation. www.theguardian.com/politics/202..." — Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/jolyonmaugham.bsky.social/post/3lksv2wcg7k2g?fbclid=IwY2xjawJJmr1leHRuA2FlbQIxMAA BHZD_bSrrCBlUFYyDF4mqLixYun_1-csQERM64OS7a2DDq5-Fsxy5r-BAsQ_aem_Y0Fbjg7Su4jEJLW7t3wkVQ)

[JimBHibees]

But if this was the big plot to get her and the SNP why hasn't she been charged? Surely that would be the end game in this plot?

Job done by implicating her and the favourable British media giving it blanket wall to wall coverage and when not covering it covering ferries.

[grunt]

What damage, the SNP are leading in the polls and support for Independence is unchanged, wasn't support for Indy actually higher in the last poll? Pretty rubbish plot if you ask me, they should all be fired for failing miserably.


Luckily the people of Scotland agree with me seeing as over 800,000 voted for Labour at the election less than a year ago going from 1 MP at the previous election to 37.

Aye, no damage at all!

[Jack]

My understanding is that embezzlement can be a misappropriation of funds.

That is spending money on something or another when an individual doesn’t have the authority to do so.

Well thanks for explaining that!

Thing is financial crimes are notoriously difficult to get a conviction on. You've kindly provided a very simple explanation of what embezzlement is.

Most folk don't even know how their bank account works 😂

[Berwickhibby]

Well thanks for explaining that!

Thing is financial crimes are notoriously difficult to get a conviction on. You've kindly provided a very simple explanation of what embezzlement is.

Most folk don't even know how their bank account works 😂

What is embezzlement under the UK law?
It occurs when someone who was entrusted to manage someone else's money or property steals all or part of that money or property for their own personal gain. The offence occurs when an individual has legal access to another's money or property, but not legal ownership of it and they abuse this authority.

[grunt]

What is embezzlement under the UK law?
It occurs when someone who was entrusted to manage someone else's money or property steals all or part of that money or property for their own personal gain. The offence occurs when an individual has legal access to another's money or property, but not legal ownership of it and they abuse this authority.
Thanks. Makes sense. Good explanation.

[J-C]

Money donated for independence was then used elsewhere without getting the go ahead from the people donating it. Technically a criminal act but stupidity by Morell.

[CropleyWasGod]

Money donated for independence was then used elsewhere without getting the go ahead from the people donating it. Technically a criminal act but stupidity by Morell.

"elsewhere" wouldn't be a crime unless it was for PM's personal gain.

Using funds that were ring-fenced for something, and used elsewhere in party business, would be an internal matter between the donors and the party. That wouldn't be criminal.

It's also worth nothing that the party accounts made no mention of any ring-fenced funds.

[Jack]

What is embezzlement under the UK law?
It occurs when someone who was entrusted to manage someone else's money or property steals all or part of that money or property for their own personal gain. The offence occurs when an individual has legal access to another's money or property, but not legal ownership of it and they abuse this authority.

My point is that (for the most part I'm assuming dot.netters are a fairly savvy bunch) if embezzlement needs folk on here to explain to others what are the chances of a jury being able to understand it?

Particularly when there's a bunch of lawyers/QCs and whatever trying to confuse those jurors who probably already don't know one end of their bank account from another?

[CropleyWasGod]

My point is that (for the most part I'm assuming dot.netters are a fairly savvy bunch) if embezzlement needs folk on here to explain to others what are the chances of a jury being able to understand it?

Particularly when there's a bunch of lawyers/QCs and whatever trying to confuse those jurors who probably already don't know one end of their bank account from another?

Financial crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute. I've often thought they should be judged by a specialist court, who at least have a basic grasp of such stuff.

It's therefore the job of the prosecutors to make things as simple as possible for the jury, to get to the actual heart of the charge, and try to blow away any smoke from the defence. Not easy.

[Ozyhibby]

Financial crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute. I've often thought they should be judged by a specialist court, who at least have a basic grasp of such stuff.

It's therefore the job of the prosecutors to make things as simple as possible for the jury, to get to the actual heart of the charge, and try to blow away any smoke from the defence. Not easy.

Especially so in very large organisations. I would think that with an organisation as small as the SNP that it should not be too difficult work out what has went on?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Especially so in very large organisations. I would think that with an organisation as small as the SNP that it should not be too difficult work out what has went on?


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Not necessarily so.

In smaller organisations, there are likely to be fewer and less complex controls over things. That makes dodgy behaviour a bit simpler.

Fraud and embezzlement are also more likely if there is less division between functions, eg where the beneficiary is also the person who authorises the expenditure. That's common in smaller organisations. (see Rowling, J.K.)

[RyeSloan]

"elsewhere" wouldn't be a crime unless it was for PM's personal gain.

Using funds that were ring-fenced for something, and used elsewhere in party business, would be an internal matter between the donors and the party. That wouldn't be criminal.

It's also worth nothing that the party accounts made no mention of any ring-fenced funds.

That’s because they used that well worn accounting technique of ‘woven through’ instead! [emoji12]

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it's all assumption what has happened no? I'm sure it will be come clear and people will analyse at that time

[Hibs4185]

"elsewhere" wouldn't be a crime unless it was for PM's personal gain.

Using funds that were ring-fenced for something, and used elsewhere in party business, would be an internal matter between the donors and the party. That wouldn't be criminal.

It's also worth nothing that the party accounts made no mention of any ring-fenced funds.

I think therein lies the problem. The funds were for Independence and during Covid they bought a camper van. They also had to fight 2-3 unexpected elections in fairly quick succession so funds weee used for that.

I’m sure PM’s defence will be that the funds were used towards independence but maybe not as the donors expected.

I also think the donors who donated are the ones who reported it to the police and although independence supporters they now have an axe to grind with the SNP. Wings over scotland etc but that’s only going by some content on X

[Berwickhibby]

I think therein lies the problem. The funds were for Independence and during Covid they bought a camper van. They also had to fight 2-3 unexpected elections in fairly quick succession so funds weee used for that.

I’m sure PM’s defence will be that the funds were used towards independence but maybe not as the donors expected.

I also think the donors who donated are the ones who reported it to the police and although independence supporters they now have an axe to grind with the SNP. Wings over scotland etc but that’s only going by some content on X

If that was the case then there is not a crime, to complete the offence he must have acted unlawfully and there was personal gain.

[jamie_1875]

It's not just the missing £600,000 that is being disputed. It was reported the Police were looking at over 1000 instances of fraud as well as the £600K so it moved on from just where did the missing £600K go. As posted above the SNP treasurer resigned as he couldn't access the relevant financial information from Murrell and claimed a lack of transparency and then the auditors resigned as well, even someone senior like Humza Yousaf said he never even knew the auditors has resigned as it was kept a secret. There was the purchase of the £110K campervan and then the undeclared loans he made to the party as well, I mean all can perhaps be explained perfectly legitimately and that's what I am sure his lawyers will be pulling together in court. You add all these small things together and it starts to build a picture of something though that doesn't quite look right, but a jury of his peers it seems will have the chance to look at all this.

[lapsedhibee]

It's not just the missing £600,000 that is being disputed. It was reported the Police were looking at over 1000 instances of fraud as well as the £600K so it moved on from just where did the missing £600K go. As posted above the SNP treasurer resigned as he couldn't access the relevant financial information from Murrell and claimed a lack of transparency and then the auditors resigned as well, even someone senior like Humza Yousaf said he never even knew the auditors has resigned as it was kept a secret. There was the purchase of the £110K campervan and then the undeclared loans he made to the party as well, I mean all can perhaps be explained perfectly legitimately and that's what I am sure his lawyers will be pulling together in court. You add all these small things together and it starts to build a picture of something though that doesn't quite look right, but a jury of his peers it seems will have the chance to look at all this.

Is that legit reporting, or is it counting each of a thousand teabags inappropriately used as a separate crime?

[grunt]

Money donated for independence was then used elsewhere without getting the go ahead from the people donating it. Technically a criminal act but stupidity by Morell.
What law does this break, technically?

[jamie_1875]

Is that legit reporting, or is it counting each of a thousand teabags inappropriately used as a separate crime?

"There has been an Amazon account which may have been linked to SNP funds, and purchases from that account are being looked at very closely. There are over 1,000 individual items that the police are looking at as potential instances of fraud and go back a number of years.

Goods range from quite expensive items to relatively cheap everyday products, but the point is that all of these things together could add up to a very serious criminal allegation. Companies and political parties cannot just spend money any way they want - there are rules about how people are paid and there are obviously huge tax implications as well."

Maybe he was buying tea bags, but it wasn't his money to buy tea bags with for his own personal use. If any of us started using the company credit card or petty cash for personal use we would rightly be either disciplined or if serious reported to the police, why would this be different?

Don't you think the resignation of both the treasurer and the auditors points to something not being quite right? I mean that's a big signal something is wrong, but maybe resigning due to lack of financial transparency is normal.

[Moulin Yarns]

These matters are active under the Contempt of Court Act 1981. The provisions of this Act protect the integrity of proceedings, preserve access to justice for victims and secure the rights of people accused of crime.

“Anyone publishing items about active cases is advised to exercise caution as material must not be commentary or analysis of evidence, witnesses or accused. Contempt of Court carries penalties of up to two years in prison and/or an unlimited fine.”

Just saying.

[Ozyhibby]

"There has been an Amazon account which may have been linked to SNP funds, and purchases from that account are being looked at very closely. There are over 1,000 individual items that the police are looking at as potential instances of fraud and go back a number of years.

Goods range from quite expensive items to relatively cheap everyday products, but the point is that all of these things together could add up to a very serious criminal allegation. Companies and political parties cannot just spend money any way they want - there are rules about how people are paid and there are obviously huge tax implications as well."

Maybe he was buying tea bags, but it wasn't his money to buy tea bags with for his own personal use. If any of us started using the company credit card or petty cash for personal use we would rightly be either disciplined or if serious reported to the police, why would this be different?

Don't you think the resignation of both the treasurer and the auditors points to something not being quite right? I mean that's a big signal something is wrong, but maybe resigning due to lack of financial transparency is normal.

If an SNP employee, no matter how senior, has been stealing from the SNP then I hope they get the book thrown at them.


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[J-C]

What law does this break, technically?

The money wasn't given for normal party use but for an independence campaign which was thwarted by the courts, that money should've been handed back to the members if they wanted it back. Instead it was used for other party matters, I'm sure it was a bitter disgruntled member who brought it to the police's notice. Still wasn't party money to use as they wished.

[lapsedhibee]

"There has been an Amazon account which may have been linked to SNP funds, and purchases from that account are being looked at very closely. There are over 1,000 individual items that the police are looking at as potential instances of fraud and go back a number of years.

Goods range from quite expensive items to relatively cheap everyday products, but the point is that all of these things together could add up to a very serious criminal allegation. Companies and political parties cannot just spend money any way they want - there are rules about how people are paid and there are obviously huge tax implications as well."

Maybe he was buying tea bags, but it wasn't his money to buy tea bags with for his own personal use. If any of us started using the company credit card or petty cash for personal use we would rightly be either disciplined or if serious reported to the police, why would this be different?

Don't you think the resignation of both the treasurer and the auditors points to something not being quite right? I mean that's a big signal something is wrong, but maybe resigning due to lack of financial transparency is normal.

Ta. I'm sure there won't be 1,000 separate charges of fraud relating to Amazon purchases. Don't think anyone doubts that there's been dodgy looking stuff, and quite possibly dodgy actual stuff, going on. Lock him up if he's guilty, but the coverage in general has been ****, even with Sarah Smith safely tucked out of the way in Trumpland.