SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Stairway 2 7]

Or more correctly add to the Scottish debt.


The agreement will allow ministers in Edinburgh to double their annual borrowing to protect day-to-day spending to £600m

People argue we can't borrow ourselves, then complain that we can borrow?

[Moulin Yarns]

People argue we can't borrow ourselves, then complain that we can borrow?

The amount that the Scottish Government are being allowed to borrow is but a drop in the ocean of what is required for the Scottish Budget.

[Stairway 2 7]

Gers might not be spot on but the debate is usually around how much we are subsidised. I don't think any even pro independence economist thinks Scotland doesn't get more than we put it, especially thanks to barnett being calculated wrong for us. Scotland gets 30% more public spending than England thanks to Barnett being miscalculated

[Stairway 2 7]

The amount that the Scottish Government are being allowed to borrow is but a drop in the ocean of what is required for the Scottish Budget.

1%

[degenerated]

People argue we can't borrow ourselves, then complain that we can borrow?Being able to borrow is good but being able to spend it on what we need it to be spent on is a bigger issue, no?

[Stairway 2 7]

Being able to borrow is good but being able to spend it on what we need it to be spent on is a bigger issue, no?

It is but it should free up money to spend as we wish. Almost 40% of our gdp comes from income tax so we get a good whack, although we should have everything

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/08/18/why-gers-is-wrong-yet-again/

GERS is a wild guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

It is but it should free up money to spend as we wish. Almost 40% of our gdp comes from income tax so we get a good whack, although we should have everythingWe can only really spend it on capital projects, it can only be spent on resource if there is a fall in income tax receipts if I remember correctly.

[Jack]

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/08/18/why-gers-is-wrong-yet-again/

GERS is a wild guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think a wild guess is being kind. I'd say closer to a politically motivated deliberate attempt to mislead.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/08/18/why-gers-is-wrong-yet-again/

GERS is a wild guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Richard Murphy is called a quack on here when he criticises the snp and by more regularly.

A piece about that Murphy article you linked, where a number of prefesors ask did he even read GERS. Yes they are estimates but have a lot of data behind them, hence snp don't argue against them. Well worth a read for anyone thinking GERS is just a guess

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html?m=1

In the comments of murphys article someone says why would the snp chose the methodology and sign off the independent auditors, he replies because snp don't want independence. No bother Richard


https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1297963568038662145?lang=en-GB

[Ozyhibby]

Richard Murphy is called a quack on here when he criticises the snp and by more regularly.

A piece about that Murphy article you linked, where a number of prefesors ask did he even read GERS. Yes they are estimates but have a lot of data behind them, hence snp don't argue against them. Well worth a read for anyone thinking GERS is just a guess

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html?m=1

In the comments of murphys article someone says why would the snp chose the methodology and sign off the independent auditors, he replies because snp don't want independence. No bother Richard


https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1297963568038662145?lang=en-GB

I imagine GERS will turn more favourable over next few years which may suit the SNP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

I think a wild guess is being kind. I'd say closer to a politically motivated deliberate attempt to mislead.

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject. Professor MacDonald is Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at the Adam Smith Business School; he has acted as an advisor on currency and exchange rate issues to the European Commission, IMF, World Bank, European Central Bank and a number of other central banks. He was previously Bonar Macfie Chair of Economics and Adam Smith Chair of Political Economy at the University of Glasgow and Professor of International Finance at the University of Strathclyde. I think we can fairly say that Professor MacDonald knows his stuff .

He offered the following comment:
"It is important to note that that GERS is a national Statistics publication and assessed by the independent UK Statistics Authority. The statistics are produced by civil servants, and not by a partisan group, and are best practice in the sense that they meet the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, a code that is consistent with the European Statistics Code of Practice.
As in practically any statistical exercise the GERS statistics depend on estimates and there is nothing unusual about that. In that regard it is noteworthy that the statistics produced and reported in GERS come with standard confidence intervals indicating the uncertainty with which the central estimates are held. An examination of these confidence bounds demonstrates that the generally accepted position on Scotland’s fiscal and trade positions are unchanged. This is why mainstream economists, statisticians and commentators will continue to use these statistics in their work."
Professor Ronald MacDonald



I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response. Angus is Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) and was previously Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury. It would be fair to say he too knows this subject better than most.

He offered me the following reply
“All economic statistics involve sampling and estimates. But when the UK Statistics Authority designate figures as ‘National Statistics’ that’s hugely significant. This is a kite-mark showing they meet international statistical standards. Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. The people who work to create these statistics are honest, hard-working and dedicated public servants who aren’t allowed to answer back to defend themselves. Anyone who questions our national statisticians’ honesty and integrity should take a hard look at themselves.”
Professor Angus Armstrong

[Moulin Yarns]

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject. Professor MacDonald is Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at the Adam Smith Business School; he has acted as an advisor on currency and exchange rate issues to the European Commission, IMF, World Bank, European Central Bank and a number of other central banks. He was previously Bonar Macfie Chair of Economics and Adam Smith Chair of Political Economy at the University of Glasgow and Professor of International Finance at the University of Strathclyde. I think we can fairly say that Professor MacDonald knows his stuff .

He offered the following comment:
"It is important to note that that GERS is a national Statistics publication and assessed by the independent UK Statistics Authority. The statistics are produced by civil servants, and not by a partisan group, and are best practice in the sense that they meet the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, a code that is consistent with the European Statistics Code of Practice.
As in practically any statistical exercise the GERS statistics depend on estimates and there is nothing unusual about that. In that regard it is noteworthy that the statistics produced and reported in GERS come with standard confidence intervals indicating the uncertainty with which the central estimates are held. An examination of these confidence bounds demonstrates that the generally accepted position on Scotland’s fiscal and trade positions are unchanged. This is why mainstream economists, statisticians and commentators will continue to use these statistics in their work."
Professor Ronald MacDonald



I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response. Angus is Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) and was previously Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury. It would be fair to say he too knows this subject better than most.

He offered me the following reply
“All economic statistics involve sampling and estimates. But when the UK Statistics Authority designate figures as ‘National Statistics’ that’s hugely significant. This is a kite-mark showing they meet international statistical standards. Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. The people who work to create these statistics are honest, hard-working and dedicated public servants who aren’t allowed to answer back to defend themselves. Anyone who questions our national statisticians’ honesty and integrity should take a hard look at themselves.”
Professor Angus Armstrong

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_McDonald

[grunt]

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject.

I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response.
Neither of these quotes address the points raised by Richard Murphy. It's the social media equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears.

[Ozyhibby]

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject. Professor MacDonald is Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at the Adam Smith Business School; he has acted as an advisor on currency and exchange rate issues to the European Commission, IMF, World Bank, European Central Bank and a number of other central banks. He was previously Bonar Macfie Chair of Economics and Adam Smith Chair of Political Economy at the University of Glasgow and Professor of International Finance at the University of Strathclyde. I think we can fairly say that Professor MacDonald knows his stuff .

He offered the following comment:
"It is important to note that that GERS is a national Statistics publication and assessed by the independent UK Statistics Authority. The statistics are produced by civil servants, and not by a partisan group, and are best practice in the sense that they meet the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, a code that is consistent with the European Statistics Code of Practice.
As in practically any statistical exercise the GERS statistics depend on estimates and there is nothing unusual about that. In that regard it is noteworthy that the statistics produced and reported in GERS come with standard confidence intervals indicating the uncertainty with which the central estimates are held. An examination of these confidence bounds demonstrates that the generally accepted position on Scotland’s fiscal and trade positions are unchanged. This is why mainstream economists, statisticians and commentators will continue to use these statistics in their work."
Professor Ronald MacDonald



I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response. Angus is Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) and was previously Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury. It would be fair to say he too knows this subject better than most.

He offered me the following reply
“All economic statistics involve sampling and estimates. But when the UK Statistics Authority designate figures as ‘National Statistics’ that’s hugely significant. This is a kite-mark showing they meet international statistical standards. Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. The people who work to create these statistics are honest, hard-working and dedicated public servants who aren’t allowed to answer back to defend themselves. Anyone who questions our national statisticians’ honesty and integrity should take a hard look at themselves.”
Professor Angus Armstrong

I don’t pay much heed to them either way. They don’t tell you anything about an independent Scotland unless you think we would make all the same choices and if that were the case then what would be the point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[McD]

Neither of these quotes address the points raised by Richard Murphy. It's the social media equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears.


they do address some of the comments on here about their accuracy and any political motivation behind the people who work to generate the GERS

[Stairway 2 7]

Neither of these quotes address the points raised by Richard Murphy. It's the social media equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears.

They do he's saying they are a guess when there is lots of analysis that creates the central figure. The rest of the article goes through his claims one by one. He's generally thought of as a nutter. He said last summer to stop inflation boe should cut inflation rate and start quantative easing. If that doesn't tell you everything

[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t pay much heed to them either way. They don’t tell you anything about an independent Scotland unless you think we would make all the same choices and if that were the case then what would be the point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It doesn't no. It gives us an idea of immediately post but yes things will change after that however we want. I think Derek Mackay said similar, he agreed GERS was a good interpretation of now but wanted to produce an idea of what after independence

[Jones28]

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject. Professor MacDonald is Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at the Adam Smith Business School; he has acted as an advisor on currency and exchange rate issues to the European Commission, IMF, World Bank, European Central Bank and a number of other central banks. He was previously Bonar Macfie Chair of Economics and Adam Smith Chair of Political Economy at the University of Glasgow and Professor of International Finance at the University of Strathclyde. I think we can fairly say that Professor MacDonald knows his stuff .

He offered the following comment:
"It is important to note that that GERS is a national Statistics publication and assessed by the independent UK Statistics Authority. The statistics are produced by civil servants, and not by a partisan group, and are best practice in the sense that they meet the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, a code that is consistent with the European Statistics Code of Practice.
As in practically any statistical exercise the GERS statistics depend on estimates and there is nothing unusual about that. In that regard it is noteworthy that the statistics produced and reported in GERS come with standard confidence intervals indicating the uncertainty with which the central estimates are held. An examination of these confidence bounds demonstrates that the generally accepted position on Scotland’s fiscal and trade positions are unchanged. This is why mainstream economists, statisticians and commentators will continue to use these statistics in their work."
Professor Ronald MacDonald



I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response. Angus is Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) and was previously Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury. It would be fair to say he too knows this subject better than most.

He offered me the following reply
“All economic statistics involve sampling and estimates. But when the UK Statistics Authority designate figures as ‘National Statistics’ that’s hugely significant. This is a kite-mark showing they meet international statistical standards. Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. The people who work to create these statistics are honest, hard-working and dedicated public servants who aren’t allowed to answer back to defend themselves. Anyone who questions our national statisticians’ honesty and integrity should take a hard look at themselves.”
Professor Angus Armstrong

Clown.

[Jack]

I asked Professor Ronald MacDonald for his thoughts on the subject. Professor MacDonald is Research Professor in Macroeconomics and International Finance at the Adam Smith Business School; he has acted as an advisor on currency and exchange rate issues to the European Commission, IMF, World Bank, European Central Bank and a number of other central banks. He was previously Bonar Macfie Chair of Economics and Adam Smith Chair of Political Economy at the University of Glasgow and Professor of International Finance at the University of Strathclyde. I think we can fairly say that Professor MacDonald knows his stuff .

He offered the following comment:
"It is important to note that that GERS is a national Statistics publication and assessed by the independent UK Statistics Authority. The statistics are produced by civil servants, and not by a partisan group, and are best practice in the sense that they meet the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, a code that is consistent with the European Statistics Code of Practice.
As in practically any statistical exercise the GERS statistics depend on estimates and there is nothing unusual about that. In that regard it is noteworthy that the statistics produced and reported in GERS come with standard confidence intervals indicating the uncertainty with which the central estimates are held. An examination of these confidence bounds demonstrates that the generally accepted position on Scotland’s fiscal and trade positions are unchanged. This is why mainstream economists, statisticians and commentators will continue to use these statistics in their work."
Professor Ronald MacDonald



I also asked Professor Angus Armstrong for his response. Angus is Director of Macroeconomics at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) and was previously Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury. It would be fair to say he too knows this subject better than most.

He offered me the following reply
“All economic statistics involve sampling and estimates. But when the UK Statistics Authority designate figures as ‘National Statistics’ that’s hugely significant. This is a kite-mark showing they meet international statistical standards. Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. The people who work to create these statistics are honest, hard-working and dedicated public servants who aren’t allowed to answer back to defend themselves. Anyone who questions our national statisticians’ honesty and integrity should take a hard look at themselves.”
Professor Angus Armstrong

These people say GERS are stats not accounts. So they're not giving a true and fair view in an accounting sense. Meanwhile comments are about Scotlands bottom line is running up a debts to/with rUK.

Should have asked an Accountant instead of statisticians if we want a true and fair view of Scotlands financial position.

[Stairway 2 7]

These people say GERS are stats not accounts. So they're not giving a true and fair view in an accounting sense. Meanwhile comments are about Scotlands bottom line is running up a debts to/with rUK.

Should have asked an Accountant instead of statisticians if we want a true and fair view of Scotlands financial position.

Clutching

[Jack]

Clutching

Would you be happy is a statistician did Hibs accounts?

I'm not sure the shareholders would.

[Stairway 2 7]

Would you be happy is a statistician did Hibs accounts?

I'm not sure the shareholders would.

Accountants did the accounts. When an eminent macroeconomic says "Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously." I trust that more than Joe bloggs saying these figures are rigged

[Jack]

Accountants did the accounts.

No they didn't.

[Stairway 2 7]

No they didn't.

Accountants did hibs accounts I'm sure but I'm not sure the relevance, why would statisticians do them. GERS isn't accounts. Are you saying the independent team that compiled gers don't know what they are doing. Or disagreeing with the professor when he says "Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously."

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Accountants did hibs accounts I'm sure but I'm not sure the relevance, why would statisticians do them. GERS isn't accounts. Are you saying the independent team that compiled gers don't know what they are doing. Or disagreeing with the professor when he says "Anybody who says these figures are “easily rigged” or “nonsense data” frankly doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously."

It's not that the figures are rigged. it's just that they are rough estimates generated from a methodology report that relies on an arguably outdated model.

[degenerated]

I don’t pay much heed to them either way. They don’t tell you anything about an independent Scotland unless you think we would make all the same choices and if that were the case then what would be the point?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd it's worth paying even less attention to Ronald MacDonald of better together and Kevin Hague's ultra unionist group these islands.

He came out with some absolute nonsense about an independent currency costing £300 billion and wiping 30% off pensions when the SNP put forward a proposal for Scottish currency.
These claims were in complete contradiction to previous claims he made when the Scottish government plan was to keep sterling. 27095

[Stairway 2 7]

And it's worth paying even less attention to Ronald MacDonald of better together and Kevin Hague's ultra unionist group these islands.

He came out with some absolute nonsense about an independent currency costing £300 billion and wiping 30% off pensions when the SNP put forward a proposal for Scottish currency.
These claims were in complete contradiction to previous claims he made when the Scottish government plan was to keep sterling. 27095

He doesn't give his opinion in the piece he literally just just says they were compiled by independent statisticians. Snp approved them and approve the GERS report when it comes out. Saying its rigged or a guess is all very trump snpanon

[degenerated]

He doesn't give his opinion in the piece he literally just just says they were compiled by independent statisticians. Snp approved them and approve the GERS report when it comes out. Saying its rigged or a guess is all very trump snpanonCool

[Rumble de Thump]

He doesn't give his opinion in the piece he literally just just says they were compiled by independent statisticians. Snp approved them and approve the GERS report when it comes out. Saying its rigged or a guess is all very trump snpanon

The flaws with GERS have been well documented over the years. The information in it is often simply wrong and misleading, so who would really want to draw any firm conclusions from that?

[Stairway 2 7]

The flaws with GERS have been well documented over the years. The information in it is often simply wrong and misleading, so who would really want to draw any firm conclusions from that?

If it was biased against Scotland financially there is not a chance snp wouldn't take it to court and fight it. Why wouldn't they.

But they release it and they accept it as a fair representation. If independence supporters think it biased why don't they attack snp for releasing it as is

[archie]

Scotland's Future, the Scottish Government publication that preceeded the referendum stated:

The starting point for this analysis is the National Statistics publication, Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS). GERS is the authoritative publication on Scotland's public finances.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/6/

Was the Scottish Government mistaken?

[Rumble de Thump]

If it was biased against Scotland financially there is not a chance snp wouldn't take it to court and fight it. Why wouldn't they.

But they release it and they accept it as a fair representation. If independence supporters think it biased why don't they attack snp for releasing it as is

I'm not sure about independence supporters (everyone should be able to acknowledge its clear flaws), but the whole point of GERS was never to provide a fair and accurate representation of Scotland's finances. It was created by the Tories as a means of trying to dissuade people in Scotland from even wanting a devolved parliament let alone an independent Scotland. That was its purpose. That's why it exists. It's great to ask questions and be inquisitive, though. We just need to ackowledge the reality of the situation as a starting point.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

If it was biased against Scotland financially there is not a chance snp wouldn't take it to court and fight it. Why wouldn't they.

But they release it and they accept it as a fair representation. If independence supporters think it biased why don't they attack snp for releasing it as is

The report isn't unlawful, just mistakenly misunderstood as being unquestionably accurate by some people, when the report isn't even based on any definitive real world figures but economic outcome forecasts. Just because the Scottish Government uses it, doesn't necessarily mean that they accept it as a fair representation. They accept it as the only representation available.

[Rumble de Thump]

Scotland's Future, the Scottish Government publication that preceeded the referendum stated:

The starting point for this analysis is the National Statistics publication, Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS). GERS is the authoritative publication on Scotland's public finances.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/6/

Was the Scottish Government mistaken?

GERS is literally the authoritative publication on Scotland's public finances.

[Stairway 2 7]

They use it as verbatim when they want

East Dunbartonshire and SNP Spokesperson for Pensions, Ms Callaghan mp said

I must also stress that an independent Scotland can completely afford to pay state pensions. Latest figures (GERS: 2020-21) show that even during the pandemic, without borrowing a single penny, Scottish tax revenue covered all devolved day to day spending (e.g., on the NHS and schools) as well as all spending in Scotland on the state pension and Universal Credit

[Jack]

They use it as verbatim when they want

East Dunbartonshire and SNP Spokesperson for Pensions, Ms Callaghan mp said

I must also stress that an independent Scotland can completely afford to pay state pensions. Latest figures (GERS: 2020-21) show that even during the pandemic, without borrowing a single penny, Scottish tax revenue covered all devolved day to day spending (e.g., on the NHS and schools) as well as all spending in Scotland on the state pension and Universal Credit

Even I believe the historic spend stuff. It's when it starts forecasting and then there's the bit the Scottish Government has no control over it becomes a nonsense.

[archie]

Even I believe the historic spend stuff. It's when it starts forecasting and then there's the bit the Scottish Government has no control over it becomes a nonsense.

It's the Scottish Government that produces it.

[degenerated]

If it was biased against Scotland financially there is not a chance snp wouldn't take it to court and fight it. Why wouldn't they.

But they release it and they accept it as a fair representation. If independence supporters think it biased why don't they attack snp for releasing it as isIt's the best that can be made from garbage data, that's the point.

The problem the SNP have is that they were happy to use these flawed statistics when it suited them.

[archie]

It's the best that can be made from garbage data, that's the point.

The problem the SNP have is that they were happy to use these flawed statistics when it suited them.

Are you saying the numbers in Scotland's Future were flawed?

[grunt]

He's generally thought of as a nutter. He said last summer to stop inflation boe should cut inflation rate and start quantative easing. If that doesn't tell you everything
Says who?

I take it you mean cut the interest rate - I've seen many economists who criticise the BoE approach to controlling inflation. Is he an outlier?

[archie]

Says who?

I take it you mean cut the interest rate - I've seen many economists who criticise the BoE approach to controlling inflation. Is he an outlier?

I wouldn't describe anyone as a nutter. But I do know that Richard Murphy isn't an economist.

[archie]

The flaws with GERS have been well documented over the years. The information in it is often simply wrong and misleading, so who would really want to draw any firm conclusions from that?

Is there a better alternative?

[Stairway 2 7]

Says who?

I take it you mean cut the interest rate - I've seen many economists who criticise the BoE approach to controlling inflation. Is he an outlier?

Most think he's ridiculous. They should probably cut rates now that interest is falling and going to continue. He said last year when they were rising they should cut it and follow that with quantitative easing, something that helped create the rise. To be fair thankfully everyone said he was ridiculous, but he ignores his mad shouts doesn't acknowledge he has been proven wrong and just pumps out another 100 blogs.

Even when talking about gers he says the snp produce it because they don't want independence and it helps show that clown

[degenerated]

Most think he's ridiculous. They should probably cut rates now that interest is falling and going to continue. He said last year when they were rising they should cut it and follow that with quantitative easing, something that helped create the rise. To be fair thankfully everyone said he was ridiculous, but he ignores his mad shouts doesn't acknowledge he has been proven wrong and just pumps out another 100 blogs.

Even when talking about gers he says the snp produce it because they don't want independence and it helps show that clownThe bank of England don't seem to think that quantitative easing necessarily caused inflation, are they nutters too?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2023/april/ben-broadbent-speech-hosted-by-national-institute-of-economic-and-social-research

[Stairway 2 7]

The bank of England don't seem to think that quantitative easing necessarily caused inflation, are they nutters too?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2023/april/ben-broadbent-speech-hosted-by-national-institute-of-economic-and-social-research

This isn't the bank of England and it doesn't say QE didn't contribute at all. I said helped increase interest rates. Of course I don't think it caused it I've said previously brexit is probably due 10% alone. Fuel and food the majority.

BOE definitely didn't think QE would help last summer and definitely didn't think cutting interest rates in July last year when murphy suggested it, hence it increased them a large amount.

I don't think they should have risen today but that's a different story

[Stairway 2 7]

This is old news about Murphy. Last year when he ripped apart SNPs independence paper, everyone said he's best ignored and I agreed

Richard Murphy: SNP currency plans for independence are 'so wrong' I'd switch to No

https://archive.ph/gdSVd

[degenerated]

This isn't the bank of England and it doesn't say QE didn't contribute at all. I said helped increase interest rates. Of course I don't think it caused it I've said previously brexit is probably due 10% alone. Fuel and food the majority.

BOE definitely didn't think QE would help last summer and definitely didn't think cutting interest rates in July last year when murphy suggested it, hence it increased them a large amount.

I don't think they should have risen today but that's a different storyIt quite literally is is the deputy governor, monetary policy for the bank of England?

[Stairway 2 7]

It quite literally is is the deputy governor, monetary policy for the bank of England?

One person doing a speech isn't the BOE as an entity, but that's not the main point. The fact the boe literally did the opposite of what Murphy suggested is

[grunt]

Most think he's ridiculous.
Who does? Provide some evidence.

Edit: Don't bother. I'm not interested.

[Stairway 2 7]

Who does? Provide some evidence.

Edit: Don't bother. I'm not interested.

Keep posting but not interested? Do you agree with him that SNPs independence paper finances are so bad you should vote no

There's articles from Adam Smith institute, and Forbes saying he's an idiot and not an economist
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/06/15/bankers-pay-rises-36-idiot-outraged/amp/

In this post 2 years ago he says we shouldn't be worried about inflation lol lol
https://youtu.be/NgV0-jKjqbc

In this blog post last spring he said rising inflation was unexpected ffs I can post 10 articles with every real economists saying high inflation is coming

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/03/23/this-is-not-a-time-fir-small-thinking-when-only-big-thinking-will-do/

This is his best and another reason hes an idiot. He says delaying the first and second vaccine dose was wrong. Imperial college research shows it saved 10,000 lives and another 60,000 hospitalisations. He said AZ didn't work. It stopped 99% of deaths. WHO estimates it saved 6,300,000 lives in its first year

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1396512848935784448
@RichardJMurphy
Three thoughts on vaccines. First, the second dose delay was obviously a mistake. Second AZ is clearly not ‘highly effective’ as claimed. It has an impact, but only a bit more than is necessary to be considered worthwhile. And third, the gov’t is still lying about all this

@MSStavroulaUHS
Although you're absolutely free to express your thoughts, it would be wise to share them if they are relevant to your area of expertise. And public health is not that area

@RichardJMurphy
I am discussing data and governance. Both are well within my areas expertise. So, politely, stop taking nonsense

[xyz23jc]

It's the best that can be made from garbage data, that's the point.

The problem the SNP have is that they were happy to use these flawed statistics when it suited them.

UK Stylee... Ken? :greengrin

[degenerated]

Keep posting but not interested? Do you agree with him that SNPs independence paper finances are so bad you should vote no

There's articles from Adam Smith institute, and Forbes saying he's an idiot and not an economist
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/06/15/bankers-pay-rises-36-idiot-outraged/amp/

In this post 2 years ago he says we shouldn't be worried about inflation lol lol
https://youtu.be/NgV0-jKjqbc

In this blog post last spring he said rising inflation was unexpected ffs I can post 10 articles with every real economists saying high inflation is coming

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/03/23/this-is-not-a-time-fir-small-thinking-when-only-big-thinking-will-do/

This is his best and another reason hes an idiot. He says delaying the first and second vaccine dose was wrong. Imperial college research shows it saved 10,000 lives and another 60,000 hospitalisations. He said AZ didn't work. It stopped 99% of deaths. WHO estimates it saved 6,300,000 lives in its first year

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1396512848935784448
@RichardJMurphy
Three thoughts on vaccines. First, the second dose delay was obviously a mistake. Second AZ is clearly not ‘highly effective’ as claimed. It has an impact, but only a bit more than is necessary to be considered worthwhile. And third, the gov’t is still lying about all this

@MSStavroulaUHS
Although you're absolutely free to express your thoughts, it would be wise to share them if they are relevant to your area of expertise. And public health is not that area

@RichardJMurphy
I am discussing data and governance. Both are well within my areas expertise. So, politely, stop taking nonsenseWhat are you gonna do when Elon musk breaks twitter :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

What are you gonna do when Elon musk breaks twitter :greengrin

There was four links so probably use the Internet simply. If he does something similar will replace it as its how news is told now. Traditional media are for the old people. I was watching a discussion from the editors of the I and financial Times they both said newsrooms round the country are basically full of people constantly on twitter. A newspaper is two days old news and the TV and Internet articles are yesterday's reviews of twitter. Hopefully he loses control of it as it's by far the world's best source of news

[degenerated]

There was four links so probably use the Internet simply. If he does something similar will replace it as its how news is told now. Traditional media are for the old people. I was watching a discussion from the editors of the I and financial Times they both said newsrooms round the country are basically full of people constantly on twitter. A newspaper is two days old news and the TV and Internet articles are yesterday's reviews of twitter. Hopefully he loses control of it as it's by far the world's best source of informationDon't waste your time on Bluesky it's pretty crap so far.

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't waste your time on Bluesky it's pretty crap so far.

Was praying for threads but it was a crap twitter. Twitter is going downhill fast. It's smooth and has some good new features. But it's getting filled with right wing ****. I bite and comment at them, then feel guilty as I realise they get promoted and now monetized by engagement. It's also the biggest waste of time, must have spent hundreds of hours arguing with activaxers like a complete tit

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Was praying for threads but it was a crap twitter. Twitter is going downhill fast. It's smooth and has some good new features. But it's getting filled with right wing ****. I bite and comment at them, then feel guilty as I realise they get promoted and now monetized by engagement. It's also the biggest waste of time, must have spent hundreds of hours arguing with activaxers like a complete tit

When was Twitter ever uphill? It has always been a cesspit. But it's certainly gone from the bottom of the hill, all the way into the ground towards the deep pits of hell.

[Stairway 2 7]

When was Twitter ever uphill? It has always been a cesspit. But it's certainly gone from the bottom of the hill, all the way into the ground towards the deep pits of hell.

I think before if you just followed the right people, I pretty much follow journalists I like and hibs, you could miss a lot of bile. But it seems to find its way through now. It's a shame because it got too important to get taken over by one person who is easily led.

I think this thread is snp mind. Stephen Flynn was very good on radio 2. Being pretty clear about oil reduction we'll see and how the jobs in the North East have to be switched to green jobs. There could be economic hard times in the North if we don't act now and green jobs are definitely the way to do it. I hope Flynn can switch to a Holyrood seat as he'd be a great FM in my opinion

[Ozyhibby]

I think before if you just followed the right people, I pretty much follow journalists I like and hibs, you could miss a lot of bile. But it seems to find its way through now. It's a shame because it got too important to get taken over by one person who is easily led.

I think this thread is snp mind. Stephen Flynn was very good on radio 2. Being pretty clear about oil reduction we'll see and how the jobs in the North East have to be switched to green jobs. There could be economic hard times in the North if we don't act now and green jobs are definitely the way to do it. I hope Flynn can switch to a Holyrood seat as he'd be a great FM in my opinion

Have to say that I totally agree with you on Flynn. He’s a real talent. His comms skills are excellent.
Great interview with him here on Newsagents podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000622942006

He might have to move to Holyrood once they suspend him from parliament for using his headed paper.[emoji23]


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66409588

I'd imagine that privately Yousaf could see this court action far enough, especially as it's likely to play out against the by-election backdrop, but feels duty-bound to go through with it.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66409588

I'd imagine that privately Yousaf could see this court action far enough, especially as it's likely to play out against the by-election backdrop, but feels duty-bound to go through with it.

The biggest win for the SNP in the by-election is the Labour candidate is pro self ID also

[Ozyhibby]

The biggest win for the SNP in the by-election is the Labour candidate is pro self ID also

Does that really matter for Labour? They just run a mile from speaking about what they believe in.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Does that really matter for Labour? They just run a mile from speaking about what they believe in.


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I don't think it will sway the by-election but it's definitely contributed to SNPs slide. Most voters aren't politics geeks like us so don't care about branch office gibes ect, self ID cuts through I believe

[xyz23jc]

Does that really matter for Labour? They just run a mile from speaking about what they believe in.


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Think the term is TELT....!:greengrin

[He's here!]

Fergus Ewing calls for SNP vote on Scottish Greens Bute House Agreement | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23700951.fergus-ewing-calls-snp-vote-scottish-greens-bute-house-agreement/)

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23700951.fergus-ewing-calls-snp-vote-scottish-greens-bute-house-agreement/

I hope you're quoting Dianne Abbot on the Labour thread, too :-)

[He's here!]

Alex Salmond signs up leading SNP figures to appear at his Fringe Festival show (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/alex-salmond-signs-up-leading-snp-figures-to-appear-at-his-fringe-festival-show/ar-AA1eQyOU)

Salmond's Fringe show seems to have attracted a fair number of SNP MPs/MSPs who it's fair to say don't altogether see eye to eye with the party.

Does Salmond still harbour hopes of returning to a more high-profile political role?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/susaninlangside/status/1688503854566899712?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Glasgow refusing prison boat.[emoji106]
Will the Labour Tory coalition in Edinburgh do the same?


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/susaninlangside/status/1688503854566899712?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Glasgow refusing prison boat.[emoji106]
Will the Labour Tory coalition in Edinburgh do the same?


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Don't need to forth ports already refused. Although I'm not sure if principle was involved but spaces were already full

[CropleyWasGod]

Alex Salmond signs up leading SNP figures to appear at his Fringe Festival show (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/alex-salmond-signs-up-leading-snp-figures-to-appear-at-his-fringe-festival-show/ar-AA1eQyOU)

Salmond's Fringe show seems to have attracted a fair number of SNP MPs/MSPs who it's fair to say don't altogether see eye to eye with the party.

Does Salmond still harbour hopes of returning to a more high-profile political role?

Loses any claim to credibility by the use of those words in that order.

Any fule kno that.

[He's here!]

Education staff could strike in September - union - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66411340)

Hopefully a pay offer can be agreed before we see schools closed again next term. Many of those voting to strike are in roles which are chronically underpaid and arguably deserve a rise more than teachers.

[He's here!]

SNP has resorted to ‘grievance politics’ at Westminster, says Streeting (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-has-resorted-to-grievance-politics-at-westminster-says-streeting/ar-AA1eUZb4?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ae864d88f50045e192aa5b73ce66a2f6&ei=7)

Not really true to say they've 'resorted' to grievance politics surely? It's long been their modus operandi.

[Smartie]

SNP has resorted to ‘grievance politics’ at Westminster, says Streeting (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-has-resorted-to-grievance-politics-at-westminster-says-streeting/ar-AA1eUZb4?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ae864d88f50045e192aa5b73ce66a2f6&ei=7)

Not really true to say they've 'resorted' to grievance politics surely? It's long been their modus operandi.

"Wes Streeting, shadow health secretary
He added: “The fact is, if I were a Scot, I would want to be an MSP, not an MP, because the issues that I care most about, issues that drive me are around public services, equality, and social justice."

If he were a Scot, he might be able to see that the Labour Party are not the vehicle for delivering any of that, in any shape or form, any more.

[Glory Lurker]

If you want to improve the lot of the less well off, it's the politics of envy, maybe even class war.

If you want to change the way Scotland is governed, it's grievance.

Stick a label on it and vilify. That's how you preserve the status quo.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/susaninlangside/status/1688503854566899712?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Glasgow refusing prison boat.[emoji106]
Will the Labour Tory coalition in Edinburgh do the same?


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Aka not in my back yard?

[Smartie]

Aka not in my back yard?

No.

Because they are vile and dangerous, as the tweet and then the article specifically declare.

In fairness - the article quoted Stephen Kinnock who doesn't exactly give a ringing endorsement of the use of these things but acknowledges that Labour are going to have to deal with the mess they inherit before possibly changing course in time.

This isn't a stick with which to beat the SNP though.

Back to the Ferries?

[weecounty hibby]

Aka not in my back yard?

What a sad, sad way to look at someone doing the right thing. They are a disgrace on so many levels. Conditions, costs, who the money is going to etc. Well done Glasgow or any other city who doesn't accept them

[Jack]

One refugee barge!

The torys will need 17 such barges to deal with this year's illegal immigration alone.

Because of the torys continued failure on immigration almost 7,000 barges for the last 6 years. End to the barges would reach Strasbourg!

[lapsedhibee]

One refugee barge!

The torys will need 17 such barges to deal with this year's illegal immigration alone.

Because of the torys continued failure on immigration almost 7,000 barges for the last 6 years. End to end the barges would reach Strasbourg!

Not seeing how they're getting the last lot out of the water and across the north of France. Is there a system of quite wide canals there? :dunno:

[Jack]

Not seeing how they're getting the last lot out of the water and across the north of France. Is there a system of quite wide canals there? :dunno:

OK, I've found a way to measure keeping them all on the water 😀

Houses of Parliament to nearly Lands End!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What a sad, sad way to look at someone doing the right thing. They are a disgrace on so many levels. Conditions, costs, who the money is going to etc. Well done Glasgow or any other city who doesn't accept them

Well done Glasgow. :agree: Hope Edinburgh follows, but i'm not holding my breath with those lot running the show.

[He's here!]

No.

Because they are vile and dangerous, as the tweet and then the article specifically declare.

In fairness - the article quoted Stephen Kinnock who doesn't exactly give a ringing endorsement of the use of these things but acknowledges that Labour are going to have to deal with the mess they inherit before possibly changing course in time.

This isn't a stick with which to beat the SNP though.

Back to the Ferries?

Said it before but we'd quickly discover that a benevolent tone would not be so readily adopted if the most convenient landing point for boats crossing the Channel happened to be off the coast of Scotland. You just need to look at some of the comments underneath the article about the Ukrainians being housed at Leith docks which HarponHibee has flagged up on the Labour thread.

Little surprise Labour are getting in early with an admission they'll be continuing to deploy this sort of accommodation as nobody is currently able to come up with a better idea. What would Susan Aitken's solution be?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Said it before but we'd quickly discover that a benevolent tone would not be so readily adopted if the most convenient landing point for boats crossing the Channel happened to be off the coast of Scotland. You just need to look at some of the comments underneath the article about the Ukrainians being housed at Leith docks which HarponHibee has flagged up on the Labour thread.

Little surprise Labour are getting in early with an admission they'll be continuing to deploy this sort of accommodation as nobody is currently able to come up with a better idea. What would Susan Aitken's solution be?

The purpose of showing those comments was to highlight the attitudes of a typical British bigot. The sentiments in those comments are exactly the type of attitude that the UK Government continues to stir up, with help from a media that is hell bent on treating migrants as statistics, rather than actual people who have suffered unimaginable hardships.

[Ozyhibby]

The purpose of showing those comments was to highlight the attitudes of a typical British bigot. The sentiments in those comments are exactly the type of attitude that the UK Government continues to stir up, with help from a media that is hell bent on treating migrants as statistics, rather than actual people who have suffered unimaginable hardships.

Yes but if they can put them on a big barge in the Clyde then the can provide a nice focal point for bigotry and hatred to grow. The union flag brigade would be down there like a shot.


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[grunt]

Said it before but we'd quickly discover that a benevolent tone would not be so readily adopted if the most convenient landing point for boats crossing the Channel happened to be off the coast of Scotland. You just need to look at some of the comments underneath the article about the Ukrainians being housed at Leith docks which HarponHibee has flagged up on the Labour thread.

I don't think you're right, but we'll never know for sure. I think yer average Scot has way more respect for the plight of refugees than those comments display. One of the problems we face as a society today is that these angry voices are amplified out of all proportion by social media and the press.

[Jack]

Yes but if they can put them on a big barge in the Clyde then the can provide a nice focal point for bigotry and hatred to grow. The union flag brigade would be down there like a shot.


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Given its a UK government barge then surely it would have its own Union Jack as a government building or perhaps the Red Ensign.

That would confuse the hell out of them 😆

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think you're right, but we'll never know for sure. I think yer average Scot has way more respect for the plight of refugees than those comments display. One of the problems we face as a society today is that these angry voices are amplified out of all proportion by social media and the press.

When asked on Rwanda Scots approve a wee bit less than England 31% approve, London opposes the most. Only 1 poll though
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/10/31/3c056/2

Your right the average person has more compassion than they posts, the uk public has one of the most favorable attitudes to immigrants in the world. London is the most internationally diverse cities in the world
https://archive.ph/2x5J7

The difference is in the governments. The problem is the right wing Westminster government in charge plays to the 10% of ****bag racists. Scot gov I believe tries their best to treat refugees with dignity and respect

[Smartie]

Said it before but we'd quickly discover that a benevolent tone would not be so readily adopted if the most convenient landing point for boats crossing the Channel happened to be off the coast of Scotland. You just need to look at some of the comments underneath the article about the Ukrainians being housed at Leith docks which HarponHibee has flagged up on the Labour thread.

Little surprise Labour are getting in early with an admission they'll be continuing to deploy this sort of accommodation as nobody is currently able to come up with a better idea. What would Susan Aitken's solution be?

I think you're miles off the mark with this one.

All this "stop the boats" stuff is deeply divisive. Poor treatment of migrants actually unifies people across the political divide, there are even Tories who haven't yet gone full BNP like the current lot have.

Labour appearing to be soft on the issue is putting off people who may be interested in switching to them at the next election although again, I see they are being critical of these ghastly boats today.

This isn't a political football, it's a simple matter of good guys and ***** to me and we all need to be very careful which side we join.

Many of the policies of the current Tory party are repugnant and anyone with any sense of decency should be distancing themselves from them and not just because they don't want these boats in their back yard.

I only live a few hundred yards away from where the boat of Ukrainians was and I would happily have a large number of migrants here as long as their conditions were adequate. Not the lap of luxury but humane.

[lapsedhibee]

OK, I've found a way to measure keeping them all on the water 😀

Houses of Parliament to nearly Lands End!

:aok:

[He's here!]

Alex Salmond urges Humza Yousaf to end power sharing deal with Scottish Greens (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/alex-salmond-urges-humza-yousaf-to-end-power-sharing-deal-with-scottish-greens/ar-AA1eXKvU?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d1b4d6a53ded463787a0a9cd914035b1&ei=11)

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Alex Salmond urges Humza Yousaf to end power sharing deal with Scottish Greens (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/alex-salmond-urges-humza-yousaf-to-end-power-sharing-deal-with-scottish-greens/ar-AA1eXKvU?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d1b4d6a53ded463787a0a9cd914035b1&ei=11)

The SNP will do what they have to do to maintain a functional government. I know Alex Salmond doesn't like that idea and is desperate for the SNP to surrender power over to the opposition (as I'm sure many unionists are as well). But if they have to maintain a political coalition with the greens to keep the right-wing crack pots from taking over, then that's what they'll continue to do.

[CropleyWasGod]

Said it before but we'd quickly discover that a benevolent tone would not be so readily adopted if the most convenient landing point for boats crossing the Channel happened to be off the coast of Scotland. You just need to look at some of the comments underneath the article about the Ukrainians being housed at Leith docks which HarponHibee has flagged up on the Labour thread.

Little surprise Labour are getting in early with an admission they'll be continuing to deploy this sort of accommodation as nobody is currently able to come up with a better idea. What would Susan Aitken's solution be?

1. it's not, so it isn't really worth considering. If it were, I'd be more concerned about the sudden shift in the Tectonic Plates than where a couple of barges were moored.

2. Scotland, in most people's view, is under-populated. That was borne out by the Labour FM (McConnell, I think) who wanted Blair to relax immigration limits for Scotland, so that we could increase our population. He was refused, of course, but it does suggest that Scottish Governments (of most colours) would have a more humane and pragmatic attitude towards immigrants.

[He's here!]

Humza Yousaf orders probe into Scottish Government credit card spending after massive data dump - Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/humza-yousaf-orders-probe-scottish-30657844)

A lot of this doesn't appear especially scandalous, although the number of trips abroad Sturgeon took seems questionable when foreign affairs are a reserved matter. As Fraser Nelson put it on Radio Scotland the taxpayer is essentially 'footing the bill for her ego trips'.

[grunt]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/humza-yousaf-orders-probe-scottish-30657844

A lot of this doesn't appear especially scandalous, although the number of trips abroad Sturgeon took seems questionable when foreign affairs are a reserved matter. As Fraser Nelson put it on Radio Scotland the taxpayer is essentially 'footing the bill for her ego trips'.Rubbish.

[weecounty hibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/humza-yousaf-orders-probe-scottish-30657844

A lot of this doesn't appear especially scandalous, although the number of trips abroad Sturgeon took seems questionable when foreign affairs are a reserved matter. As Fraser Nelson put it on Radio Scotland the taxpayer is essentially 'footing the bill for her ego trips'.

What absolute nonsense. I know that you hate her and have an obsession bordering on unhealthy, but whether you lije it or not she was the FM of the country and seen internationally as a very impressive stateswoman. She has every right to visit foreign countries to promote Scotland. And yes I have no doubt independence came up in those visits and rightly so as she was elected to do just that

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What absolute nonsense. I know that you hate her and have an obsession bordering on unhealthy, but whether you lije it or not she was the FM of the country and seen internationally as a very impressive stateswoman. She has every right to visit foreign countries to promote Scotland. And yes I have no doubt independence came up in those visits and rightly so as she was elected to do just that

Scottish representatives are not allowed to go abroad and talk up Scotland. It's "reserved" to the big boys down south that we don't elect to represent us. You should know better. :tsk tsk:

[He's here!]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/03B5/production/_130694900_stts-09-08-23-001-stts.jpg

Exam results overall holding up OK but attainment gap continues to widen.

[Ozyhibby]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/03B5/production/_130694900_stts-09-08-23-001-stts.jpg

Exam results overall holding up OK but attainment gap continues to widen.

It didn’t continue to widen. It widened on last year, where it fell.


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[He's here!]

It didn’t continue to widen. It widened on last year, where it fell.


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That's fine then.

[lapsedhibee]

That's fine then.

Not fine, but true, which is a good starting place.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That's fine then.

Progress isn't always linear. Sometimes it's 2 steps forward followed by 1 step backwards. Of course the British press in Scotland will always focus on the 1 step backwards as long as the SNP are at the helm, it doesn't matter to them if progress is being made in the long run.

[McSwanky]

Progress isn't always linear.

Something that some minds seem to find very difficult to grasp. See also climate change (it's cold outside!)

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1689212345006841856?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP starting to recover?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1689212345006841856?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP starting to recover?


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The Green vote also seems disproportionately high, which could mean an even higher % of votes for the SNP. Possibly 42-43% rather than 40 and perhaps only losing 2 or 3 seats.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1689212345006841856?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP starting to recover?


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Seems an outlier by a long margin. I'd wait for a few more Scotland only polls. Would be happy with snp and tory figures there but can't see it. The tories in particular are amazingly low.

Although yougov yesterday had tories falling further despite the culture war so fingers crossed.

[Stairway 2 7]

The Green vote also seems disproportionately high, which could mean an even higher % of votes for the SNP. Possibly 42-43% rather than 40 and perhaps only losing 2 or 3 seats.

Green general election voters in Scotland last time when polled were 50/50 on wanting independence, so I'm not sure there vote would all fall one way. There is certainly space for a pro union greens, would cut union party votes a bit too

[Ozyhibby]

Seems an outlier by a long margin. I'd wait for a few more Scotland only polls. Would be happy with snp and tory figures there but can't see it. The tories in particular are amazingly low.

Although yougov yesterday had tories falling further despite the culture war so fingers crossed.

The Tory vote in Scotland was always boosted by their unionism. I think they will think it safe under Starmer to switch to Labour.
It’s just one poll but it’s a start.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Green general election voters in Scotland last time when polled were 50/50 on wanting independence, so I'm not sure there vote would all fall one way. There is certainly space for a pro union greens, would cut union party votes a bit too

What was the weight of the poll? Was the poll exclusively for green voters, or was it a sub sample taken from a larger poll?

[Jones28]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1689212345006841856?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP starting to recover?


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The Lib Dem share is really quite staggering.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Green vote also seems disproportionately high, which could mean an even higher % of votes for the SNP. Possibly 42-43% rather than 40 and perhaps only losing 2 or 3 seats.

Green voters often don't get a candidate in a GE, so I'd agree that their votes would probably go elsewhere.

[Keith_M]

The Lib Dem share is really quite staggering.


Sickened Tory Voters that couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour?

[Stairway 2 7]

What was the weight of the poll? Was the poll exclusively for green voters, or was it a sub sample taken from a larger poll?

Can't see it similar for Holyrood election and a sub sample, about 2000 people. Polls are just polls but thinking 100% would go to snp is obviously wrong imo

It's clear a party who's issue is the most important thing facing us would come from both sides of the independence debate

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Can't see it similar for Holyrood election and a sub sample, about 2000 people. Polls are just polls but thinking 100% would go to snp is obviously wrong imo

It's clear a party who's issue is the most important thing facing us would come from both sides of the independence debate

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

I don't believe 100% would go to the SNP. A large proportion would remain Green with possibly a small percentage going towards Labour/Lib Dems. I would however challenge the 50/50 conclusion of the poll if it's based on a low sub sample size with a high margin of error. Considering the article discusses support for independence covering multiple parties. I'm going to assume that the result is based on one poll, divided into smaller sub samples. There may have also been some shenanigans going on with 14% of those claiming to be Alba voters saying they would vote NO to independence.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't believe 100% would go to the SNP. A large proportion would remain Green with possibly a small percentage going towards Labour/Lib Dems. I would however challenge the 50/50 conclusion of the poll if it's based on a low sub sample size with a high margin of error. Considering the article discusses support for independence covering multiple parties. I'm going to assume that the result is based on one poll, divided into smaller sub samples. There may have also been some shenanigans going on with 14% of those claiming to be Alba voters saying they would vote NO to independence.

People generally don't believe polls that they disagree with and believe in the ones that does. This is unreasonable but the one this morning is fine although we're taking snp votes from a subsample of uk polling.

Polls give a rough idea, I'd bet green voters are pretty split

[Smartie]

The Lib Dem share is really quite staggering.

I can’t help but think that there’s a massive opportunity for them.

There will be a massive number of people down South who would never vote Labour but be totally turned off by the Tories’ culture war pish.

The “shy Tory” types who have won election after election for them.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

People generally don't believe polls that they disagree with and believe in the ones that does. This is unreasonable but the one this morning is fine although we're taking snp votes from a subsample of uk polling.

Polls give a rough idea, I'd bet green voters are pretty split

It's not a case of believing the poll or not. But how the conclusions were drawn and the margin of error involved. Sub samples generally have a much higher margin of error than full samples, due to being only a fraction of the full sample size. The sub sample for Green voters may have only been 50-100 people in size, which has a high margin for error.

I'm not definitively claiming that you're wrong. I'm just making a calculated observation on how I think this data was collected.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's not a case of believing the poll or not. But how the conclusions were drawn and the margin of error involved. Sub samples generally have a much higher margin of error than full samples, due to being only a fraction of the full sample size. The sub sample for Green voters may have only been 50-100 people in size, which has a high margin for error.

I'm not definitively claiming that you're wrong. I'm just making a calculated observation on how I think this data was collected.

Exact same for the SNP subsample in a British sample that you just took as gospel. Your calculated observation only works for one poll, brilliant. I don't believe either polls but they give an idea I suppose.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Exact same for the SNP subsample in a British sample that you just took as gospel. Your calculated observation only works for one poll, brilliant. I don't believe either polls but they give an idea I suppose.

The calculated number of seats for the SNP from the sub sample matches that of the full sample at 38 seats.

[Ozyhibby]

With polls it’s best to look for trends over time along with consistency. Last few polls appeared to show the SNP decline had stabilised and reached a floor. This one is the first to show a bit of a recovery but will have to wait and see.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The calculated number of seats for the SNP from the sub sample matches that of the full sample at 38 seats.

About 100 people in the poll said they were voting snp. Similar numbers would have said they were green voters in the Scottish independence poll. As I've said people agree with polls that says what they want. They are only a sample though and decent for seeing trends

[Stairway 2 7]

With polls it’s best to look for trends over time along with consistency. Last few polls appeared to show the SNP decline had stabilised and reached a floor. This one is the first to show a bit of a recovery but will have to wait and see.


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Pretty much yeah.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

About 100 people in the poll said they were voting snp. Similar numbers would have said they were green voters in the Scottish independence poll. As I've said people agree with polls that says what they want. They are only a sample though and decent for seeing trends

That's irrelevant. As in a full sample poll, the margin of error is divided up between the options. But when you take a poll from a sub sample of a poll, the margin of error is compounded.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's irrelevant. As in a full sample poll, the margin of error is divided up between the options. But when you take a poll from a sub sample of a poll, the margin of error is compounded.

The sample size for Scotland is so small for both that you could have an argument to say they are too small to be reliable. If you said that I'd say your probably right. Saying one is accurate and one is not is just daft, you know that I'm sure but wouldn't post it.

British wide polls usually aren't that good to track the snp but I'm sure there will be more soon so we can see where the trend is going

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The sample size for Scotland is so small for both that you could have an argument to say they are too small to be reliable. If you said that I'd say your probably right. Saying one is accurate and one is not is just daft, you know that I'm sure but wouldn't post it.

British wide polls usually aren't that good to track the snp but I'm sure there will be more soon so we can see where the trend is going

I agree that the sample size for Scotland is too small to draw any conclusions from, when it's a sub sample taken from a wider UK poll. However, a UK wide poll with a sub sample of over 11,000 has a margin of error of less than 1%. The UK wide poll matches the sub sample for the SNP at 38 seats. This could of course completely change over the coming months. But it's a pretty accurate indication of where the SNP are right now.

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree that the sample size for Scotland is too small to draw any conclusions from, when it's a sub sample taken from a wider UK poll. However, a UK wide poll with a sub sample of over 11,000 has a margin of error of less than 1%. The UK wide poll matches the sub sample for the SNP at 38 seats. This could of course completely change over the coming months. But it's a pretty accurate indication of where the SNP are right now.

Nonsense it was less than 1000 Scots in the uk wide poll, I'd doubt anyone apart from someone wanting to be accurate would say this is accurate with certainty.

This one is much much wider than any of the last say 10 polls. So there's either been a dramatic shift suddenly (there's not) or its not accurate. If the next few polls are as wide as this then I'll admit I'm wrong, you do the say if they go to the 4-5% they have sat at?

[Stairway 2 7]

Kate Forbes says there should be a poll on the Bute House agreement amongst members. Third ex minister to put this forward

[Ozyhibby]

Kate Forbes says there should be a poll on the Bute House agreement amongst members. Third ex minister to put this forward

I think there is no harm in testing the members opinions on this.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Nonsense it was less than 1000 Scots in the uk wide poll, I'd doubt anyone apart from someone wanting to be accurate would say this is accurate with certainty.

This one is much much wider than any of the last say 10 polls. So there's either been a dramatic shift suddenly (there's not) or its not accurate. If the next few polls are as wide as this then I'll admit I'm wrong, you do the say if they go to the 4-5% they have sat at?

It's a UK poll with a sample of over 11,000 people. This gives it a margin of error of less than 1%. You're treating the 1000 or so in Scotland as if it was it's own poll. That's not how it works. If you take the 1,000 in Scotland and create a new poll from that (the sub sample poll), then yes, the margin of error goes up, but only for that new poll. Not the original poll with a sample over 11,000. The other polls you refer to tend to have a sample between 1000-2000 over the whole of the UK, giving them a higher margin of error.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think there is no harm in testing the members opinions on this.


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I don't think they need to it was clear before the election
there would be cooperation. Membership is far away from the voting public, I'm not sure what it'll tell us for the elections One way or the other.

I don't see why they don't just reign the greens in and keep them away from being incharge of policy. Greens aren't going to jump back to being a minor party outside power. I don't believe in their red lines.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's a UK poll with a sample of over 11,000 people. This gives it a margin of error of less than 1%. You're treating the 1000 or so in Scotland as if it was it's own poll. That's not how it works. If you take the 1,000 in Scotland and create a new poll from that (the sub sample poll), then yes, the margin of error goes up, but only for that new poll. Not the original poll with a sample over 11,000. The other polls you refer to tend to have a sample between 1000-2000 over the whole of the UK, giving them a higher margin of error.

But no one in England can vote for the SNP only 8% of that 11k. If your talking about Labour or tories numbers being accurate then maybe, although I don't think they are. There is no way tories are that low

[TrumpIsAPeado]

But no one in England can vote for the SNP only 8% of that 11k.
That does nothing to skew the results. Those who aren't voting SNP will vote for a party that can be voted for across the whole of the UK with the exception of Alba and perhaps the SSP. But those percentages are too minute to make any noticeable difference.


If your talking about Labour or tories numbers being accurate then maybe, although I don't think they are. There is no way tories are that low

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But the largest poll with the smallest margin of error conducted in a long while suggests otherwise.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think they need to it was clear before the election
there would be cooperation. Membership is far away from the voting public, I'm not sure what it'll tell us for the elections One way or the other.

I don't see why they don't just reign the greens in and keep them away from being incharge of policy. Greens aren't going to jump back to being a minor party outside power. I don't believe in their red lines.

If they start reigning in the greens then yes carry on but if not then the members are entitled to have their say.


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[JeMeSouviens]

People generally don't believe polls that they disagree with and believe in the ones that does. This is unreasonable but the one this morning is fine although we're taking snp votes from a subsample of uk polling.

Polls give a rough idea, I'd bet green voters are pretty split

If you're talking about the Findoutnow/EC one, then the sample size is 11K+ which is big enough to make the Scottish subsample worth noticing.

I agree it's just one poll though.

[JeMeSouviens]

That does nothing to skew the results. Those who aren't voting SNP will vote for a party that can be voted for across the whole of the UK with the exception of Alba and perhaps the SSP. But those percentages are too minute to make any noticeable difference.



That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But the largest poll with the smallest margin of error conducted in a long while suggests otherwise.

The +/-1 (or with a normal ~1000 sample +/-3) margin of error is only the moe due to sampling variation. There will also be significant errors from the methodologies used. We just don't know which company has the best one.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nonsense it was less than 1000 Scots in the uk wide poll, I'd doubt anyone apart from someone wanting to be accurate would say this is accurate with certainty.

This one is much much wider than any of the last say 10 polls. So there's either been a dramatic shift suddenly (there's not) or its not accurate. If the next few polls are as wide as this then I'll admit I'm wrong, you do the say if they go to the 4-5% they have sat at?

1000 is about the normal sample size for a Scotland-only or UK-wide poll. 11K is massive.

[Stairway 2 7]

That does nothing to skew the results. Those who aren't voting SNP will vote for a party that can be voted for across the whole of the UK with the exception of Alba and perhaps the SSP. But those percentages are too minute to make any noticeable difference.



That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But the largest poll with the smallest margin of error conducted in a long while suggests otherwise.

It's less than 1000 Scots and you're taking it as verbatim. It's not only who is voting for who it's fitting them into seats and guessing a GE result. Progressive alliance who pushes tactical anti tory voting disagrees with the method

@TheProgAlliance
As has been already posted by others in the thread, please don't bother posting screen shots of Electoral Calculus claiming we're wrong. That site uses a generic national MRP polling which has already been proven before as flawed in certain seats. Local info is ignored by them

You think tories might get less than 90 seats. Not a chance either today or next year unfortunately imo.

1000 is the usual size for a Scottish only poll, but I would never trust that either

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It's less than 1000 Scots and you're taking it as verbatim. It's not only who is voting for who it's fitting them into seats and guessing a GE result. Progressive alliance who pushes tactical anti tory voting disagrees with the method

@TheProgAlliance
As has been already posted by others in the thread, please don't bother posting screen shots of Electoral Calculus claiming we're wrong. That site uses a generic national MRP polling which has already been proven before as flawed in certain seats. Local info is ignored by them

You think tories might get less than 90 seats. Not a chance either today or next year unfortunately imo.

1000 is the usual size for a Scottish only poll, but I would never trust that either

Again, it's irrelevant as it doesn't negate the fact that a poll of 11,000 people has a margin of error of less than 1%. Saying that there's only 1,000 or so in Scotland doesn't make any difference to the margin or error. Its like saying that there's only 100 included from Manchester or 50 from Southampton. It's irrelevant. The margin of error remains at under 1%. Now if you were to create a new poll from one of those sub samples, the margin of error of the new poll would be much higher as the sub sample size becomes the full sample size of that poll.

[Stairway 2 7]

Again, it's irrelevant as it doesn't negate the fact that a poll of 11,000 people has a margin of error of less than 1%. Saying that there's only 1,000 or so in Scotland doesn't make any difference to the margin or error. Its like saying that there's only 100 included from Manchester or 50 from Southampton. It's irrelevant. The margin of error remains at under 1%. Now if you were to create a new poll from one of those sub samples, the margin of error of the new poll would be much higher as the sub sample size becomes the full sample size of that poll.

The margin of error is just a formula and doesn't always work in the real world, hence so many large polls are still far or actual results. That's the smaller part of the problem. The bigger problem is they are using this poll then using a methodology to estimate the GE, which could be good or bad. I don't think anyone seriously believes the tories would get less than 90 seats give or take 1%.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/stephen-flynn-tells-green-deal-critics-to-put-up-or-shut-up-as-he-refuses-to-rule-out-holyrood-switch-4249683

I’m almost certain Flynn will head to Holyrood in 2026 and will be leader not long after.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/stephen-flynn-tells-green-deal-critics-to-put-up-or-shut-up-as-he-refuses-to-rule-out-holyrood-switch-4249683

I’m almost certain Flynn will head to Holyrood in 2026 and will be leader not long after.


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Headline is shocking trying to build tension. His words were very calm and hardly confrontational. I've said for a while he'd be my preferred FM but it probably came just too quick for him.

[Stairway 2 7]

So em one poll but

@electpoliticsuk
·
10m
Holyrood Voting Intention:

Constituency:
SNP: 36% (+3)
LAB: 32% (+2)
CON: 19% (-2)
LDM: 8% (-2)
GRN: 2% (=)
REF: 1% (-1)
ALBA: 1% (=)

Regional:
LAB: 30% (+4)
SNP: 29% (+1)
CON: 18% (-1)
LDM: 10% (-2)
GRN: 9% (+1)
REF: 3% (-1)
ALBA: 2% (=)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 5-6 August,

@electpoliticsuk
·
28m
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 37% (+2)
LAB: 34% (+2)
CON: 17% (-4)
LDM: 7% (=)
GRN: 2% (=)
REF: 2% (=)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 5-6 August,
Changes w/ 1-2 July.

[Ozyhibby]

Headline is shocking trying to build tension. His words were very calm and hardly confrontational. I've said for a while he'd be my preferred FM but it probably came just too quick for him.

I’m warming to the idea a lot. He is very very ambitious which is something I maybe didn’t appreciate before.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m warming to the idea a lot. He is very very ambitious which is something I maybe didn’t appreciate before.


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I thought he came out best on self ID and could have calmed some devision if FM. Basically said he believed and approved in it but those in the party that opposed shouldn't be hounded or banished. I said it was probably early for him to be a FM as he would shine first destroying the nitwits in Westminster, which he has. I wish he'd had a run at boris during covid and parties ect, as Starmer missed so many open goals

[Kato]

So em one poll but

@electpoliticsuk
·
10m
Holyrood Voting Intention:

Constituency:
SNP: 36% (+3)
LAB: 32% (+2)
CON: 19% (-2)
LDM: 8% (-2)
GRN: 2% (=)
REF: 1% (-1)
ALBA: 1% (=)

Regional:
LAB: 30% (+4)
SNP: 29% (+1)
CON: 18% (-1)
LDM: 10% (-2)
GRN: 9% (+1)
REF: 3% (-1)
ALBA: 2% (=)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 5-6 August,

@electpoliticsuk
·
28m
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 37% (+2)
LAB: 34% (+2)
CON: 17% (-4)
LDM: 7% (=)
GRN: 2% (=)
REF: 2% (=)

Via
@RedfieldWilton
, On 5-6 August,
Changes w/ 1-2 July.20% still see the Tories as a viable option. Democracy n'that must have a tiny piece of fluff for brains.

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[Jack]

Does anyone here actually have a full understanding of how stats and samples work?

[He's here!]

I don't think they need to it was clear before the election
there would be cooperation. Membership is far away from the voting public, I'm not sure what it'll tell us for the elections One way or the other.

I don't see why they don't just reign the greens in and keep them away from being incharge of policy. Greens aren't going to jump back to being a minor party outside power. I don't believe in their red lines.


Forbes is that latest to express interest in getting rid of them:

Kate Forbes backs SNP 'discussion' on deal with Scottish Greens - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66453712)

I don't believe in their red lines either. GRA reforms, HPMAs and the DRS...all either amended (ie made a mess of) or at least influenced by Green 'red lines' yet despite each one crashing and burning the Greens have shown no sign of walking. As Ewing put it, the SG has been hijacked by 'fringe extremists' so from my point of view I hope they stick around to wreak more havoc.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Forbes is that latest to express interest in getting rid of them:

Kate Forbes backs SNP 'discussion' on deal with Scottish Greens - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66453712)

I don't believe in their red lines either. GRA reforms, HPMAs and the DRS...all either amended (ie made a mess of) or at least influenced by Green 'red lines' yet despite each one crashing and burning the Greens have shown no sign of walking. As Ewing put it, the SG has been hijacked by 'fringe extremists' so from my point of view I hope they stick around to wreak more havoc.

We've been over this. A policy doesn't "crash and burn" just because the occupying country decides to overreach on devolved matters to prevent them from being implemented. What ever "fringe extremists" you perceive to be in the Scottish Government. They will never come anywhere close to complete basket cases like Suella Braverman or Lee Anderson. But they likely aren't extremists in your own mind.

[archie]

We've been over this. A policy doesn't "crash and burn" just because the occupying country decides to overreach on devolved matters to prevent them from being implemented. What ever "fringe extremists" you perceive to be in the Scottish Government. They will never come anywhere close to complete basket cases like Suella Braverman or Lee Anderson. But they likely aren't extremists in your own mind.

'The occupying country'?

[Just Alf]

'The occupying country'?Not well put :-)

That said... yet again DRS failure is getting pointed to the devolved government, this despite Scotland implementing the project exactly as set out in the original Westminster white paper.
As previously mentioned, Scotland, Wales and even NI were further down the implementation road than Westminster... wonder why Westminster stuck a stick in the spokes of the government furthest ahead with the fall out being that the other government's sitting 2nd and 3rd on that road are having to stick on the brakes thereby allowing the one (Westminster) which is still to get moving to catch up at some point. Oh, and now all three are supposed to amend their DRS implementation to match England's glass opt out.

Yet its the 3 devolved governments to blame

[Stairway 2 7]

DRS was never going to be ready this year. Lorna Slater was on morning TV saying she was certain it would go ahead in August 23. About 4 hours later Humza was on saying it would be delayed until March 24. Hopefully SNP have taken back control

Then they announced second delay until 25. Are they taking it to court like the other section 25s?

The only court case I can see circularity Scotland getting defeated by a shopkeeper, with the court saying it was set up unlawfully by the Scottish government
https://archive.ph/zKBHp

None of that is anything to do with occupation, which is obviously daft.

We unfortunately voted to remain a union and a decade later I don't think much has shifted with no slightly ahead.

[Ozyhibby]

DRS was never going to be ready this year. Lorna Slater was on morning TV saying she was certain it would go ahead in August 23. About 4 hours later Humza was on saying it would be delayed until March 24. Hopefully SNP have taken back control

Then they announced second delay until 25. Are they taking it to court like the other section 25s?

The only court case I can see circularity Scotland getting defeated by a shopkeeper, with the court saying it was set up unlawfully by the Scottish government
https://archive.ph/zKBHp

None of that is anything to do with occupation, which is obviously daft.

We unfortunately voted to remain a union and a decade later I don't think much has shifted with no slightly ahead.

I wouldn’t say nothing has changed. We’ve continued to get a lot poorer. Our independent neighbours have continued to get a lot richer.


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[147lothian]

Is Humza Yousaf going to offer better value for money for tax payers than Nicola Sturgeon?

Nicola Sturgeon's SNP racked up a £14M credit card bill in three years.

[Jack]

Is Humza Yousaf going to offer better value for money for tax payers than Nicola Sturgeon?

Nicola Sturgeon's SNP racked up a £14M credit card bill in three years.

Which part of the credit card bill do you think was not value for money?

Do you have something to compare it with to suggest it's not value for money or poor practice? The previous 3 years? A company like Standard Life or Royal Bank of Scotland?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is Humza Yousaf going to offer better value for money for tax payers than Nicola Sturgeon?

Nicola Sturgeon's SNP racked up a £14M credit card bill in three years.

Translation: Scottish government civil servants have expenses. Who knew?

You can tell this is a total non-story by the way the press have seized on the FM+staff using fast-track security and airport lounges as the killer angle. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

You can tell this is a total non-story by the way the press have seized on the FM+staff using fast-track security and airport lounges as the killer angle. :rolleyes:

That bit confused me a bit. Edinburgh Airport has a VIP area, as do most other airports. You'd have thought the most senior politicians in the country would be entitled to use it. Likewise abroad, as an important guest of the country involved VIP would have been made available.

[Hiber-nation]

Translation: Scottish government civil servants have expenses. Who knew?

You can tell this is a total non-story by the way the press have seized on the FM+staff using fast-track security and airport lounges as the killer angle. :rolleyes:

To be fair a few SG erses are getting kicked over some of the items and rightly so but it's a drop in the ocean compared to Scottish Labour's mega-extravagant reign and Jackie Baillie as usual has got a brass neck..

[archie]

Not well put :-)

That said... yet again DRS failure is getting pointed to the devolved government, this despite Scotland implementing the project exactly as set out in the original Westminster white paper.
As previously mentioned, Scotland, Wales and even NI were further down the implementation road than Westminster... wonder why Westminster stuck a stick in the spokes of the government furthest ahead with the fall out being that the other government's sitting 2nd and 3rd on that road are having to stick on the brakes thereby allowing the one (Westminster) which is still to get moving to catch up at some point. Oh, and now all three are supposed to amend their DRS implementation to match England's glass opt out.

Yet its the 3 devolved governments to blame

Valiant attempt to defend the indefensible. Well played :-)

[archie]

To be fair a few SG erses are getting kicked over some of the items and rightly so but it's a drop in the ocean compared to Scottish Labour's mega-extravagant reign and Jackie Baillie as usual has got a brass neck..

Was there a credit card scandal under Labour?

[Ozyhibby]

What are the odds the civil service in London spend more than £140m on their expenses? We’ll never know of course because they would never be so transparent. And we’ll be billed for that as well because they are working on our behalf, naturally.


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[He's here!]

DRS was never going to be ready this year. Lorna Slater was on morning TV saying she was certain it would go ahead in August 23. About 4 hours later Humza was on saying it would be delayed until March 24. Hopefully SNP have taken back control

Then they announced second delay until 25. Are they taking it to court like the other section 25s?

The only court case I can see circularity Scotland getting defeated by a shopkeeper, with the court saying it was set up unlawfully by the Scottish government
https://archive.ph/zKBHp

None of that is anything to do with occupation, which is obviously daft.

We unfortunately voted to remain a union and a decade later I don't think much has shifted with no slightly ahead.

Guff about occupying countries, colonies etc certainly won't help shift the polls on independence.

It's remarkable that Slater retains her ministerial post after the DRS shambles. Shows how beholden to the Greens the SG is I guess.

[Jack]

What are the odds the civil service in London spend more than £140m on their expenses? We’ll never know of course because they would never be so transparent. And we’ll be billed for that as well because they are working on our behalf, naturally.


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To be fair the rules around civil servants spending on cards is as tight as a ducks thingmy and that will be the same around the UK.

Where it might get abuse is around the private offices where Ministers are involved and lines (particularly Goves) get blurred.

[JeMeSouviens]

Was there a credit card scandal under Labour?

Is there a credit card scandal under the SNP?

[archie]

Is there a credit card scandal under the SNP?

It appears so. I would have said Scottish Government rather than SNP, but Jack's point suggests it's Ministers rather than civil servants.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there a credit card scandal under the SNP?

Only an idiot would believe there was.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/14/pac_emergency_services_network/

Will this be covered by BBC Scotland?


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[archie]

Only an idiot would believe there was.


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Charming - how to win friends and influence people!

[Jack]

It appears so. I would have said Scottish Government rather than SNP, but Jack's point suggests it's Ministers rather than civil servants.

To be clear I said it MIGHT get abused where lines between civil servants and Ministers become blurred.

[JeMeSouviens]

It appears so. I would have said Scottish Government rather than SNP, but Jack's point suggests it's Ministers rather than civil servants.

It really doesn't so far.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Guff about occupying countries. colonies etc certainly won't help shift the polls on independence.

There's no getting through to the politically ignorant anyway. So i'll continue to word it as accurately as possible.


Is there a credit card scandal under the SNP?

No there isn't. But that won't prevent the British media in Scotland from pointing to a list of very standard expenses and claiming that there's one anyway while being as vague on the actual data as possible.


https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/14/pac_emergency_services_network/

Will this be covered by BBC Scotland?


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Of course not. Which is just one example of many that they could touch upon, but haven't been given political clearance to do so.

[lapsedhibee]

Is there a credit card scandal under the SNP?

If civil servants have been taking private planes to meetings instead of going by bus, Yousaf must resign. :agree:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

If civil servants have been taking private planes to meetings instead of going by bus, Yousaf should resign. :agree:

Private planes at £500,000 a trip.

[Kato]

If civil servants have been taking private planes to meetings instead of going by bus, Yousaf must resign. :agree:...or helicopters.

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[CropleyWasGod]

If civil servants have been taking private planes to meetings instead of going by bus, Yousaf must resign. :agree:

Bike, Shirley?

[He's here!]

There's no getting through to the politically ignorant anyway. So i'll continue to word it as accurately as possible.



'Politically ignorant' being those who don't agree with you?

[Hiber-nation]

Was there a credit card scandal under Labour?

Not that I'm aware (nor is there one now) of but plenty of totally unwarranted extravagance as I mentioned. I benefited from some of it so I should know!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

'Politically ignorant' being those who don't agree with you?

There's disagreement over subjective viewpoints. Then there's taking objective data and trying to spin a story out of it that simply isn't there. Something that the British media excels at in Scotland.

[He's here!]

Charming - how to win friends and influence people!

Didn't strike me as the wisest riposte in light of the regular admin warnings about keeping things polite on here.

[He's here!]

There's disagreement over subjective viewpoints. Then there's taking objective data and trying to spin a story out of it that simply isn't there. Something that the British media excels at in Scotland.

I'd agree that describing Scotland as an occupied country is subjective. It's certainly not based on fact.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'd agree that describing Scotland as an occupied country is subjective. It's certainly not based on fact.

So how would you describe a country that doesn't hold the choice to leave a political and economic union? If it isn't occupied, then what is it? I look forward to your subjective view point on the matter.

[McD]

There's no getting through to the politically ignorant anyway. So i'll continue to word it as accurately as possible.



No there isn't. But that won't prevent the British media in Scotland from pointing to a list of very standard expenses and claiming that there's one anyway while being as vague on the actual data as possible.



Of course not. Which is just one example of many that they could touch upon, but haven't been given political clearance to do so.


‘occupying country’ is not ‘as accurate as possible’, it’s utterly inaccurate. I have no love for the tories or Westminster, nor do I have an issue with your position on them, but that phraseology is just nonsense, and belittles any salient points you are making.

[McD]

So how would you describe a country that doesn't hold the choice to leave a political and economic union? If it isn't occupied, then what is it? I look forward to your subjective view point on the matter.


“In international law, a territory is considered “occupied” when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.”

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/#:~:text=In%20international%20law%2C%20a%20territo ry,end%20of%20the%20nineteenth%20century.


can you show us the hostile army keeping us all in check, or will you accept that whilst we all can see what you’re trying to say, that you’ve indulged in a bit of hyperbole?

[McD]

It's all well and good simply saying that it's inaccurate. But I've already given a point as to why it may actually be accurate. What point do you have to suggest that it isn't?


please see my next/last reply, providing my point as to why it’s not accurate

[TrumpIsAPeado]

“In international law, a territory is considered “occupied” when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.”

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/#:~:text=In%20international%20law%2C%20a%20territo ry,end%20of%20the%20nineteenth%20century.


can you show us the hostile army keeping us all in check, or will you accept that whilst we all can see what you’re trying to say, that you’ve indulged in a bit of hyperbole?

What is being described here is military occupation. At no point have I used the word "military". A country can still be occupied through other means without the use of military force. Political and economic forces for example.

[McD]

What is being described here is military occupation. At no point have I used the word "military". A country can still be occupied through other means without the use of military force. Political and economic forces for example.


no one has accused you of using the word military.

google ‘occupying country’ and the link I shared is the first option.

what do you think the word ‘occupying’ actually means?

If you’d used the word ‘controlling’, I doubt anyone would have said a word about it.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

no one has accused you of using the word military.

google ‘occupying country’ and the link I shared is the first option.

what do you think the word ‘occupying’ actually means?

If you’d used the word ‘controlling’, I doubt anyone would have said a word about it.

Occupy means to "take control". If control is an acceptable term, then why isn't occupied? Why can't a country be occupied through political or economic measures? I'm not sure I agree with you that it has to involve the military. Military force is only one example of occupation.

[archie]

There's no getting through to the politically ignorant anyway. So i'll continue to word it as accurately as possible.

Again, how to win friends and influence people. Any update on your claim that Keir Starmer is taking cash bribes from private health companies?

[archie]

So how would you describe a country that doesn't hold the choice to leave a political and economic union? If it isn't occupied, then what is it? I look forward to your subjective view point on the matter.

Like almost all countries in the world. Your framing does you no favours because it is based on palpably false statements.

[147lothian]

Which part of the credit card bill do you think was not value for money?

Do you have something to compare it with to suggest it's not value for money or poor practice? The previous 3 years? A company like Standard Life or Royal Bank of Scotland?

Six copies of Women Hold up Half The Sky, a book of speeches by Nicola Sturgeon

A driving theory test for a member of staff

Nail Polish

£272 on 'wellington boots for inspections'.

One entry for February 2020 shows how civil servants spent £1,271 at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam on private security and passport checks and lounge access.

its not possible to quote all the transactions that were not value for tax payers money because 3,000 entries had no description against them, while more than £25,000 of fraudulent transactions occurred on the cards and were flagged up for refunds.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23708308.14m-credit-card-bill-includes-10k-sturgeons-airport-vip-costs/

[lapsedhibee]

Bike, Shirley?

Unless there's a substantial number of puncture repair kits itemised on the credit card statements, Yousaf must resign. :agree:

[archie]

What is being described here is military occupation. At no point have I used the word "military". A country can still be occupied through other means without the use of military force. Political and economic forces for example.

Give us an example of where a country has been occupied in the way you describe.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Like almost all countries in the world. Your framing does you no favours because it is based on palpably false statements.

What part of that statement is false? If I recall, there was a British court judgement that made it very clear that Scotland didn't hold the power to decide whether it wanted to leave the UK or not. Do you dispute this?

[archie]

What part of that statement is false? If I recall, there was a British court judgement that made it very clear that Scotland didn't hold the power to decide whether it wanted to leave the UK or not. Do you dispute this?
The UK is a unitary state. The vast majority of unitary states do not allow secession. Your misframing of the constitutional position suggests a weakness in your 'argument'.

[lapsedhibee]

Give us an example of where a country has been occupied in the way you describe.

Not a country, but wouldn't say it would be too much of a stretch to describe the BBC as having been occupied by the Tory party recently.

[degenerated]

So how would you describe a country that doesn't hold the choice to leave a political and economic union? If it isn't occupied, then what is it? I look forward to your subjective view point on the matter.

Annexed?

[McD]

Occupy means to "take control". If control is an acceptable term, then why isn't occupied? Why can't a country be occupied through political or economic measures? I'm not sure I agree with you that it has to involve the military. Military force is only one example of occupation.


the only time I’ve used to word military was in response to you using it, so please don’t put words into my mouth.

Occupy doesn’t mean to take control, unless you do want to include the words ‘military conquest or settlement’ (check the dictionary), which you have summarily rejected. So you’ve disproven your own argument.


Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages (https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en) · Learn more (https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/10106608?hl=en)












occupy

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(https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&q=how+to+pronounce+occupy&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRowS3w8sc9YSn9SWtOXmPU5OIN KMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLiYglJLcoV4pLi4GLLT04uLai0YlFiSs 3jWcQqnpFfrlCSr1AA1JEP1JKqAFEAAM0WqzhXAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=gb&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD5dGe9tGAAxVoWUEAHaEaCygQ3eEDegQIRxAI)



verb
gerund or present participle: occupying



1.
reside or have one's place of business in (a building).
"the rented flat she occupies in Hampstead"


Similar:



inhabited






lived-in






tenanted






settled






live in






inhabit






be the tenant of




tenant






lodge in




be established/ensconced in




establish/ensconce oneself in




take up residence in




make one's home in




settle in




move into




people






populate






settle






stay in




reside in




dwell in




Opposite:



free






idle






vacant






empty











fill or take up (a space or time).
"two long windows occupied almost the whole of the end wall"


Similar:



in use




full






engaged






taken






unavailable






take up






fill






fill up






cover






extend over




use up






utilize









be situated in or at (a position in a system or hierarchy (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&q=hierarchy&si=ACFMAn8hzZSJQsgXIYlkGc-z1vmpoPbCCyqtiYgZYRndbYQ3-2kOzaFMia9TfQVpIc-8ej9nGVgS2lPgL8owEeHexv2s5XXzOQ%3D%3D&expnd=1)).
"the Bank of England occupies a central position in the UK financial system"




hold (a position or job).
"a very different job from any that he had occupied before"


Similar:



hold






be in






fill






have






hold down














2.
fill or preoccupy (the mind).
"her mind was occupied with alarming questions"


Similar:



engage






busy






employ






distract






absorb






engross






preoccupy






hold






hold the attention of




immerse






interest






involve






entertain






divert






amuse






beguile











keep (someone) busy and active.
"Sarah occupied herself taking the coffee cups over to the sink"


Similar:



busy






engaged






working






employed






at work






on the job






hard-pressed






active






absorbed






engrossed






interested






involved






focused on




immersed






preoccupied






tied up




hard at it






wrapped up




on the go






on the trot






on the hop














3.
take control of (a place, especially a country) by military conquest (https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&hl=en-gb&q=conquest&si=ACFMAn-fuhiZynqzEWN5DhRvBVhtH_LWmipLQfGOHx0qYkyATiGWYTVKh Y8ZDNdmKbAUZPALuxJXeap6xqUS_F6fIMakmqnr3A%3D%3D&expnd=1) or settlement.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The UK is a unitary state. The vast majority of unitary states do not allow secession. Your misframing of the constitutional position suggests a weakness in your 'argument'.

Considering Scotland has no meaningful sway over the constitutional position. I guess you could say that we're constitutionally occupied as well.

[archie]

Considering Scotland has no meaningful sway over the constitutional position. I guess you could say that we're constitutionally occupied as well.

Is Bavaria occupied? Is Alsace occupied. Is Iowa occupied? These are all parts of countries that don't allow succession. It is a normal position.

[McD]

What part of that statement is false? If I recall, there was a British court judgement that made it very clear that Scotland didn't hold the power to decide whether it wanted to leave the UK or not. Do you dispute this?


no one disputes this. What is being disputed is the use of the word ‘occupied’. Had you said controlled by, overseen by, governed by (at least to some degree), no one would have an issue

[lapsedhibee]

Give us an example of where a country has been occupied in the way you describe.

Steady, you're implying there that Scotland's a country.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Is Bavaria occupied? Is Alsace occupied. Is Iowa occupied? These are all parts of countries that don't allow succession. It is a normal position.

None of these are examples of countries. Scotland is defined as a country (not a state), that is part of the United Kingdom.

[Stairway 2 7]

We had a vote 9 years ago where 55% wanted to stay in the union, bizarre occupied ha. Average of last 10 polls has no about 3% ahead still. The will of the people is the union just now imo or at least split down the middle.

I think that will change but we need something to change if is to soon. In March Humza said we need a clear and sustained lead in the polls before Indy vote 2 should be called

[archie]

Steady, you're implying there that Scotland's a country.

Not at all. I'm trying to establish an example that follows the 'logic' of the 'argument'.

[archie]

None of these are examples of countries. Scotland is defined as a country (not a state), that is part of the United Kingdom.

Defined where?

[CropleyWasGod]

Six copies of Women Hold up Half The Sky, a book of speeches by Nicola Sturgeon

A driving theory test for a member of staff

Nail Polish

£272 on 'wellington boots for inspections'.

One entry for February 2020 shows how civil servants spent £1,271 at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam on private security and passport checks and lounge access.

its not possible to quote all the transactions that were not value for tax payers money because 3,000 entries had no description against them, while more than £25,000 of fraudulent transactions occurred on the cards and were flagged up for refunds.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23708308.14m-credit-card-bill-includes-10k-sturgeons-airport-vip-costs/

What is the context of these payments?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Defined where?


Scotland (Scots: Scotland; Scottish Gaelic: Alba [ˈal̪ˠapə] (listen)) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom. Covering the northern third of the island of Great Britain,[17][18][19] Scotland is the second-largest country in the United Kingdom, and accounted for 8.3% of the population in 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

[archie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

No, but seriously, where is it defined?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

No, but seriously, where is it defined?


Scotland is the northernmost country in the UK.
https://study-uk.britishcouncil.org/why-study/about-uk/uk-nations/scotland

Is this source British enough for you?

[grunt]

I despair for Scotland's future. Bring on the apocalypse, it can't come soon enough.

[CropleyWasGod]

I despair for Scotland's future. Bring on the apocalypse, it can't come soon enough.

We need it now.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://study-uk.britishcouncil.org/why-study/about-uk/uk-nations/scotland

Is this source British enough for you?

But we're no occupied really though eh we don't need dictionary definitions. It's all gone a bit silly, can tell it's the politicians holidays and slow news days

[TrumpIsAPeado]

But we're no occupied really though eh we don't need dictionary definitions. It's all gone a bit silly, can tell it's the politicians holidays and slow news days

Which brings us straight back to the point why we don't have control over having a choice on whether to leave the UK or not. We're just going full circle here. I'm not going to budge on what i've said.

[archie]

https://study-uk.britishcouncil.org/why-study/about-uk/uk-nations/scotland

Is this source British enough for you?

Look up the list of members of the UN and show me where Scotland is.

[archie]

Which brings us straight back to the point why we don't have control over having a choice on whether to leave the UK or not. We're just going full circle here. I'm not going to budge on what i've said.

I'm sure you won't. And actually it is in the interests of those who don't want separation that you carry on.

[archie]

Which brings us straight back to the point why we don't have control over having a choice on whether to leave the UK or not. We're just going full circle here. I'm not going to budge on what i've said.

You can break the circle be pointing out countries that allow succession. I think Eritrea is one and possibly Canada in relation to Quebec. But apart from that?

[JeMeSouviens]

You can break the circle be pointing out countries that allow succession. I think Eritrea is one and possibly Canada in relation to Quebec. But apart from that?

You're in the wrong argument, the monarchy thread is over there <- :wink:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Look up the list of members of the UN and show me where Scotland is.

It's not the purpose of the UN to determine what is categorised as a country or not. It recognizes the United Kingdom as it's member. But nowhere does the UN state that Scotland isn't a country in it's own right.


I'm sure you won't. And actually it is in the interests of those who don't want separation that you carry on.

Just as it's in the interests of those that do for people like yourself to keep (incorrectly) stating that Scotland isn't a country.

[Stairway 2 7]

Which brings us straight back to the point why we don't have control over having a choice on whether to leave the UK or not. We're just going full circle here. I'm not going to budge on what i've said.

We had a vote 9 years ago. Almost every poll this year has no ahead. Occupation is utterly silly. The public didn't want to rejoin and probably don't still. Its depressing but true, making up were occupied makes Yes look like Qanon

[archie]

You're in the wrong argument, the monarchy thread is over there <- :wink:

Very good. Take the rest of the day off. But before you do, and advance on the countries that allow secession?

[archie]

It's not the purpose of the UN to determine what is categorised as a country or not. It recognizes the United Kingdom as it's member. But nowhere does the UN state that Scotland isn't a country in it's own right.



Just as it's in the interests of those that do for people like yourself to keep (incorrectly) stating that Scotland isn't a country.

OK. Do you think someone in Scotland forgot to apply to the UN?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm sure you won't. And actually it is in the interests of those who don't want separation that you carry on.

Interesting. I know Scotland isn't a country*, you know Scotland isn't a country. Nice to see a Labour person admitting all that "best of both worlds" guff was just that. Whose interests do you think would be served by supporters of the Union proclaiming this fact? :dunno:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

We had a vote 9 years ago. Almost every poll this year has no ahead. Occupation is utterly silly. The public didn't want to rejoin and probably don't still. Its depressing but true, making up were occupied makes Yes look like Qanon

Polls are not referendums or elections. I thought you would understand this considering your own scepticism regarding polling data. Those polling results can never be tested, because Scotland doesn't have any control over whether it can even put forward the question to the Scottish electorate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Very good. Take the rest of the day off. But before you do, and advance on the countries that allow secession?

Why? I couldn't gaf, tbh. :confused:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

OK. Do you think someone in Scotland forgot to apply to the UN?

A country doesn't need to be independent to still be a country in it's own right. Take an occupied country for example.

[McSwanky]

OK. Do you think someone in Scotland forgot to apply to the UN?Eh? [emoji23]

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

I'm sure you won't. And actually it is in the interests of those who don't want separation that you carry on.

Indeed.

As is the frequent use of 'British' as a term of disparagement. 'British court' (actually the UK Supreme Court, whose five justices for the referendum ruling included a Scottish and a Welsh judge), 'British bigots' in reference to Edinburgh Live readers...and of course the 'British media' (among whose major publishers two are US-based, while probably Scotland's most conservative, yet longest-established newspaper group DC Thomson remains firmly Scottish-owned).

This perception that folk are wandering the streets of Scotland's towns and cities feeling oppressed when the majority remain content to be part of the UK is fanciful to put it politely.

[archie]

Interesting. I know Scotland isn't a country*, you know Scotland isn't a country. Nice to see a Labour person admitting all that "best of both worlds" guff was just that. Whose interests do you think would be served by supporters of the Union proclaiming this fact? :dunno:

But if you use misleading rhetorical framings like 'voluntary unions', or 'Scotland is a country' and so on, which have no basis in reality then it is going to be disappointing. And you are doing it with your framing of this in relation to the 'best of both worlds' stuff. Whose interests are advanced by using these misleading rhetorical framings?

[Stairway 2 7]

Polls are not referendums or elections. I thought you would understand this considering your own scepticism regarding polling data. Those polling results can never be tested, because Scotland doesn't have any control over whether it can even put forward the question to the Scottish electorate.

You literally said yesterday that polling was an accurate representation but 20 or 30 polls with no leads aren't accurate, I'm not sure your a real account. Unlike yourself I don't trust 1 poll but dozens make it clear. Humza agreed he said yes needs clear and sustained leads in the polls, when talking to Ash Regan who wanted a vote now

We had a vote 9 years ago. We need to be leading clearly for a while in polls to get another or as if we lose again it will be a long time before another. That's why I didn't want Humza something has to change and its not going to happen with him soon.

This is all just noise though. Your occupation shout was daft

[archie]

Eh? [emoji23]

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

Well you guys keep saying Scotland is a country and I don't see a seat at the UN. Harp on suggested it wasn't the UN's job to determine what a country was.

[cabbageandribs1875]

some people just despise the thought of an independent Scotland eh

they'd rather the name Scotland didn't exist


the Britnats are here to set us straight

[grunt]

This perception that folk are wandering the streets of Scotland's towns and cities feeling oppressed when the majority remain content to be part of the UK is fanciful to put it politely.
How do you know they're content? Have you asked them? Course not, that's not allowed.

[grunt]

Well you guys keep saying Scotland is a country and I don't see a seat at the UN. Harp on suggested it wasn't the UN's job to determine what a country was.
I've stayed out of this playground spat, but I'd like to know one thing. What country do you live in?

[JeMeSouviens]

But if you use misleading rhetorical framings like 'voluntary unions', or 'Scotland is a country' and so on, which have no basis in reality then it is going to be disappointing. And you are doing it with your framing of this in relation to the 'best of both worlds' stuff. Whose interests are advanced by using these misleading rhetorical framings?

Imo, Unionists, which is why they do so much of it.

Nationalists tend to use them in the sense of calling out their actual untruth. "You said Scotland was in a voluntary Union, so what's the mechanism via which it leaves?" etc.

"The best of both worlds" was indeed a misleading framing, but it's not mine. :wink:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You literally said yesterday that polling was an accurate representation but 20 or 30 polls with no leads aren't accurate, I'm not sure your a real account. Unlike yourself I don't trust 1 poll but dozens make it clear. Humza agreed he said yes needs clear and sustained leads in the polls, when talking to Ash Regan who wanted a vote now

We had a vote 9 years ago. We need to be leading clearly for a while in polls to get another or as if we lose again it will be a long time before another. That's why I didn't want Humza something has to change and its not going to happen with him soon.

This is all just noise though. Your occupation shout was daft

You were quick enough to dismiss a poll with such a high sample and low margin of error, but you'll give credibility to polls with considerably smaller samples with a higher margin of error.

Now i'm not suggesting that these polls are wrong. But they can never be tested and that's not how things should function in a democracy.

[archie]

Imo, Unionists, which is why they do so much of it.

Nationalists tend to use them in the sense of calling out their actual untruth. "You said Scotland was in a voluntary Union, so what's the mechanism via which it leaves?" etc.

"The best of both worlds" was indeed a misleading framing, but it's not mine. :wink:

Ok. Do you agree with the following statements that we see a lot here?

- Scotland is a country
- Scotland is in a voluntary union

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ok. Do you agree with the following statements that we see a lot here?

- Scotland is a country
- Scotland is in a voluntary union

Yes.
No.

[archie]

I've stayed out of this playground spat, but I'd like to know one thing. What country do you live in?

Nice of you to join. My view is that we live in the UK. There is lots of objective evidence for this.

The SNP previously recognised this and worked to get a majority in the Scottish Parliament which led to them being able to negotiate a deal to have a referendum in leaving the UK. This deal was seen worldwide as an exemplar. It was all set out in Scotland's Future. As part of that there was lots of reference to rUK. This clearly suggests that the SNP led Government saw Scotland leaving the UK. So it seems I'm on the same page as the SNP was in the run up to the referendum. The rhetorical framings that we see here are just obfuscatory noise.

[Just Alf]

Give us an example of where a country has been occupied in the way you describe.Belarus?

Anyways...
FWIW I agree with you that "occupied" isn't the correct phrase.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ok. Do you agree with the following statements that we see a lot here?

- Scotland is a country
- Scotland is in a voluntary union

No and no.

Scotland was and could be a country but currently isn't. I don't think anyone would think we're in a voluntary union? Even those who were hoodwinked by your side in the past.

[Stairway 2 7]

You were quick enough to dismiss a poll with such a high sample and low margin of error, but you'll give credibility to polls with considerably smaller samples with a higher margin of error.

Now i'm not suggesting that these polls are wrong. But they can never be tested and that's not how things should function in a democracy.

No I dismissed the formula the poll used to find out seats. If it said x amount will vote Labour x tories I would take that as close. But they take they figures and try and find out seats. Many are saying there formula is off. Its given tories less than 90 seats if you believe that then you aren't very self aware when throwing out politically nieve.

It was also an outlier when every poll has given SNP about a 4% lead over Labour in Scotland, it had 11%. I was hardly stunned when the redfield poll last night was back to a 4% lead like the rest.

Polls are good for trends but you need to use an average of Many of them. I think yes was close last winter, but it's clearly went towards no ahead. The First minister agreed yes has to be ahead regularly, which it isn't.

Regardless this isn't about the accuracy of Polls or whether Scotland is a nation. Its deflection from the radge shout Scotland is occupied

[JeMeSouviens]

Belarus?

Anyways...
FWIW I agree with you that "occupied" isn't the correct phrase.

No, it's not. See also "colony". Total guff. As archie correctly points out, we are just in a region of a unitary state. I look forward to all supporters of the Union being so honest going forward. :wink:

[archie]

No and no.

Scotland was and could be a country but currently isn't. I don't think anyone would think we're in a voluntary union? Even those who were hoodwinked by your side in the past.

So we agree on the country issue. It's a shame you see the people of Scotland as fundamentally stupid. It's not a view I share, whichever way they voted in the referendum.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Nice of you to join. My view is that we live in the UK. There is lots of objective evidence for this.

The SNP previously recognised this and worked to get a majority in the Scottish Parliament which led to them being able to negotiate a deal to have a referendum in leaving the UK. This deal was seen worldwide as an exemplar. It was all set out in Scotland's Future. As part of that there was lots of reference to rUK. This clearly suggests that the SNP led Government saw Scotland leaving the UK. So it seems I'm on the same page as the SNP was in the run up to the referendum. The rhetorical framings that we see here are just obfuscatory noise.

You were trying to equate Scotland to Bavaria, Alsace and Iowa. Where are their parliaments located and what is their capital cities?

[JeMeSouviens]

So we agree on the country issue. It's a shame you see the people of Scotland as fundamentally stupid. It's not a view I share, whichever way they voted in the referendum.

The people of Scotland are no more nor less stupid than people anywhere else. Lying for political gain, and a certain amount of people being taken in by it, is a sad fact all over.

[archie]

You were trying to equate Scotland to Bavaria, Alsace and Iowa. Where are their parliaments located and what is their capital cities?

Baviaria - Munich and Berlin

Alsace - Strasbourg and Paris

Iowa -Des Moines and Washington DC.

[archie]

The people of Scotland are no more nor less stupid than people anywhere else. Lying for political gain, and a certain amount of people being taken in by it, is a sad fact all over.

Sure is.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Baviaria - Munich and Berlin

Alsace - Strasbourg and Paris

Iowa -Des Moines and Washington DC.

So they don't have their own parliaments and capitals. But are instead part of larger countries with their own parliaments and capitals? Which would make sense for states.

Scotland however has it's own parliament and it's own capital city. How could that possibly be if Scotland is just a state?

[JeMeSouviens]

So they don't have their own parliaments and capitals. But are instead part of larger countries with their own parliaments and capitals? Which would make sense for states.

Scotland however has it's own parliament and it's own capital city. How could that possibly be if Scotland is just a state?

Bavaria has a parliament as part of the German Federation, which sits in Munich. Alsace doesn't exist in a political sense, so that's baws. Scotland isn't even "just a state". It's a region of a unitary state with an asymmetric extra tier of local government.

[CropleyWasGod]

So they don't have their own parliaments and capitals. But are instead part of larger countries with their own parliaments and capitals? Which would make sense for states.

Scotland however has it's own parliament and it's own capital city. How could that possibly be if Scotland is just a state?

Bavaria and Iowa do have their own parliaments and capitals.

[archie]

So they don't have their own parliaments and capitals. But are instead part of larger countries with their own parliaments and capitals? Which would make sense for states.

Scotland however has it's own parliament and it's own capital city. How could that possibly be if Scotland is just a state?

I'm sorry - I have difficulty following your point. The point is that none of these areas has a right to seceed.

[archie]

Bavaria has a parliament as part of the German Federation, which sits in Munich. Alsace doesn't exist in a political sense, so that's baws. Scotland isn't even "just a state". It's a region of a unitary state with an asymmetric extra tier of local government.

OK - but the fundamental point is that they don't have a right to seceed.