SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Ozyhibby]

I’m happy to say that this ferries fiasco is indeed a scandal and there needs to be accountability. What I haven’t seen suggested is anything other than this being a bad decision? There appears to be no suggestion of corruption? I guess in that sense it’s very different from the spending scandals there.


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[Skol]

I’m happy to say that this ferries fiasco is indeed a scandal and there needs to be accountability. What I haven’t seen suggested is anything other than this being a bad decision? There appears to be no suggestion of corruption? I guess in that sense it’s very different from the spending scandals there.


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There is definitely no whiff off corruption. What’s pretty clear is that a series of bad mistakes have been made with no assessment of the risks.

It’s a good job a full risk assessment of independence has been carried out ;-)

On katos point, I agree there are plenty of Tory issues as well but they should not distract us from holding the Scottish government to account

[Kato]

There is definitely no whiff off corruption. What’s pretty clear is that a series of bad mistakes have been made with no assessment of the risks.

It’s a good job a full risk assessment of independence has been carried out ;-)

On katos point, I agree there are plenty of Tory issues as well but they should not distract us from holding the Scottish government to accountThey aren't.

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[He's here!]

It is a scandal by the looks of it. I'm joining in with you, as I said above if any SNP person is guilty of wrongdoing in this they should be taken to task, jailed if need be. You can read what I said above.

If whataboutery means going after other political criminals, like gaslighting rapists, PPE fraudsters, COVID loan fraudsters, MP liars, litigious money launderers, those in cahoots with Putins oligarch minions - surely now is the time to go after them as well. Where is your whataboutery, when whataboutery is very much required these days? If politics is to function as a positive force we need more and consistent whataboutery to get rid of ALL the criminals/incompetents.


They are "loathsome" and "horrible" as well, no? Or is your silence of these elements within the Conservative and Unionist Party tacit support?

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Not disagreeing with any of that. The SG's ability to simply throw the comfort blanket of independence over any disquiet though tends to dilute serious criticism, no matter how justified.

This guy's not everyone's favourite writer but he does sum things up well here:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-s-ferry-mess

[Kato]

Not disagreeing with any of that. The SG's ability to simply throw the comfort blanket of independence over any disquiet though tends to dilute serious criticism, no matter how justified.

This guy's not everyone's favourite writer but he does sum things up well here:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-s-ferry-messSo it's along the lines of the Trams scandal only with less money involved. Brutal. This'll be all over the front pages for months. Like that time Strurgeon disgracefully got mixed up between a Friday and a Monday.

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[lucky]

I’m no fan of the SNP but they stepped in to save the last yard on Clyde and gave it a contract for two ships and then Nationalised the company. Their actions might be politically driven but 300 well paid jobs were saved. Lots of governments help local firms win contracts. The Italian and French governments have done it for years and no one complains about state aid or financial mismanagement. If the U.K. government stepped in and nationalised P&O ferries and reinstated the 800 sacked workers no one would complain

[greenginger]

I’m no fan of the SNP but they stepped in to save the last yard on Clyde and gave it a contract for two ships and then Nationalised the company. Their actions might be politically driven but 300 well paid jobs were saved. Lots of governments help local firms win contracts. The Italian and French governments have done it for years and no one complains about state aid or financial mismanagement. If the U.K. government stepped in and nationalised P&O ferries and reinstated the 800 sacked workers no one would complain

Fair enough , but these ferries will 5 years late , £200 million over budget , and may never sale .

[Ozyhibby]

Fair enough , but these ferries will 5 years late , £200 million over budget , and may never sale .

I’m no fan of this deal at all, I think it was foolish for the govt to get involved with in the first place, but even I was surprised by the fact that the last shipyard on the Clyde was not actually capable of building boats.
There is not much call for shipyards like that these days so I expect that yard to close the minute those ferries are ready or they admit defeat and mothball them.


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[He's here!]

I’m no fan of this deal at all, I think it was foolish for the govt to get involved with in the first place, but even I was surprised by the fact that the last shipyard on the Clyde was not actually capable of building boats.
There is not much call for shipyards like that these days so I expect that yard to close the minute those ferries are ready or they admit defeat and mothball them.


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McColl doing his best to wash his hands of it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60910732

[Stairway 2 7]

Is 250 million a fair amount to save a few hundred jobs for a couple of years. What other non viable businesses should we save.

[Ozyhibby]

Is 250 million a fair amount to save a few hundred jobs for a couple of years. What other non viable businesses should we save.

While this is a massive error of judgement that should never have happened and was easily predictable, we can’t know if the £250m figure is correct yet.
As we speak, the ferries are only due to cost £206m (the media is forecasting the rest) and if (big if) they actually get completed for that then I guess you have to deduct the £100m they were originally forecast to cost. The loss then to the taxpayer comes in at about £110m. A massive amount and it shouldn’t have happpened but less than we gave away free to Michelle Mone.


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[Stairway 2 7]

While this is a massive error of judgement that should never have happened and was easily predictable, we can’t know if the £250m figure is correct yet.
As we speak, the ferries are only due to cost £206m (the media is forecasting the rest) and if (big if) they actually get completed for that then I guess you have to deduct the £100m they were originally forecast to cost. The loss then to the taxpayer comes in at about £110m. A massive amount and it shouldn’t have happpened but less than we gave away free to Michelle Mone.


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It's not one against the other, both are unbelievable waste of public funds. There has to be sackings

[grunt]

It's not one against the other, both are unbelievable waste of public funds. There has to be sackingsLOL. The UK Gov wrote off £4.8billion in covid loans and no one got sacked. They spent £12billion on PPE 80% of which was unusable or surplus to requirements. This is chicken feed.

[Stairway 2 7]

LOL. The UK Gov wrote off £4.8billion in covid loans and no one got sacked. They spent £12billion on PPE 80% of which was unusable or surplus to requirements. This is chicken feed.

Once again more they did that so who cares what we did. The uk government should be jailed for a multitude of reasons but we expect that from them. If you only compare yourself to them you can get away with a lot. Do you not want and expect better from scot gov, or are you just going to come back with so what when they did this

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m no fan of this deal at all, I think it was foolish for the govt to get involved with in the first place, but even I was surprised by the fact that the last shipyard on the Clyde was not actually capable of building boats.
There is not much call for shipyards like that these days so I expect that yard to close the minute those ferries are ready or they admit defeat and mothball them.


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There was an expert talking about this on Radio Scotland yesterday.

He was saying the boats are totally wrong and not fit for purpose.

For example, apparently, they can hold up to 1000 passengers but the Ardrossan ferry has never carried more than 300.

There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey

They are the wrong height for the docks in Ardrossan

etc etc

[H18 SFR]

Teachers side vote overwhelmingly to accept pay offer relating to April 2021 (80%). They’ve accepted 1.22% with a 1% uplift from January 2022. They said they’d ballot strike at anything under 3% so a total capitulation on the union’s side. The Scot Gov will never take them seriously for the wage rise due for this year.

[grunt]

Once again more they did that so who cares what we did. The uk government should be jailed for a multitude of reasons but we expect that from them. If you only compare yourself to them you can get away with a lot. Do you not want and expect better from scot gov, or are you just going to come back with so what when they did this"We expect that from them" so that makes it ok?

Yes I do expect better from SG, however I'm willing to find the facts before jumping on the "sack 'em all" bandwagon.

Plus, I'm just asking for some perspective here.

[grunt]

There was an expert talking about this on Radio Scotland yesterday.

He was saying the boats are totally wrong and not fit for purpose.

For example, apparently, they can hold up to 1000 passengers but the Ardrossan ferry has never carried more than 300.

There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey

They are the wrong height for the docks in Ardrossan

etc etcDo you honestly think that we would have got this far without someone asking these basic questions?

[WhileTheChief..]

Do you honestly think that we would have got this far without someone asking these basic questions?

Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?

[Stairway 2 7]

"We expect that from them" so that makes it ok?

Yes I do expect better from SG, however I'm willing to find the facts before jumping on the "sack 'em all" bandwagon.

Plus, I'm just asking for some perspective here.

Saying they should be jailed means I think it makes it OK? The fact a pretty obvious now.

[Kato]

Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?Sometimes that does happen.

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[Mon_the_cabbage]

Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?

Well he appears to have made the bit about crew accommodation up?

You state he said "There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey"

CalMac operate an Onshore/Offshore shift pattern so crew members do need sleeping quarters.

[grunt]

Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?Did I say that they had made it up? No. I questioned whether you thought that these basic questions would not have previously been considered in a multi-million pound programme of work.

[grunt]

Saying they should be jailed means I think it makes it OK? The fact a pretty obvious now.Sorry, you're right and I missed that you said that. We agree. They should be jailed.

[WhileTheChief..]

Well he appears to have made the bit about crew accommodation up?

You state he said "There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey"

CalMac operate an Onshore/Offshore shift pattern so crew members do need sleeping quarters.


Most of the 50 crew members are catering staff.

It's a 50 min crossing. Why is that needed is the point I think he was making.

I'll bow out, I ain't no shipping expert compared to you guys!

[ronaldo7]

I heard Jim McColl on the radio this morning saying he never signed the contract. Turns out he did actually sign the contract. Maybe he was just making it all up. :greengrin

CMAL CEO, Tom Docherty signed the contract also. (Not sure if he's in the SNP though).

https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1508791734918123530

[Mon_the_cabbage]

Most of the 50 crew members are catering staff.

It's a 50 min crossing. Why is that needed is the point I think he was making.

I'll bow out, I ain't no shipping expert compared to you guys!

I'm no shipping expert either but I do know that CalMac crew live onboard for a number of weeks as part of their shift pattern which is contrary to the false statement you repeated that no crew accommodation is required.

[ronaldo7]

Most of the 50 crew members are catering staff.

It's a 50 min crossing. Why is that needed is the point I think he was making.

I'll bow out, I ain't no shipping expert compared to you guys!

Maybe they were kitting it out for when we get back into the EU, for the route from Rosyth to Europe. :sauzee:

Forward thinking.:wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

There was an expert talking about this on Radio Scotland yesterday.

He was saying the boats are totally wrong and not fit for purpose.

For example, apparently, they can hold up to 1000 passengers but the Ardrossan ferry has never carried more than 300.

There is sleeping accommodation for up to 50 crew members when none is required for a 50 minute journey

They are the wrong height for the docks in Ardrossan

etc etc

The current Arran ferry is this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Caledonian_Isles

110 cars/1000 passengers max. The new one is 127/1000. I think the overall size is dictated by the car decks more than passenger capacity?

The harbour at Ardrossan is meant to be closing soon to get upgraded. The Arran ferry will run from Troon while that's done.

[WhileTheChief..]

Maybe they were kitting it out for when we get back into the EU, for the route from Rosyth to Europe. :sauzee:

Forward thinking.:wink:

Replacing P&O?!

[ronaldo7]

Replacing P&O?!

:greengrin

They'll be paying more than the minimum wage anyway. :aok:

[WhileTheChief..]

The current Arran ferry is this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Caledonian_Isles

110 cars/1000 passengers max. The new one is 127/1000. I think the overall size is dictated by the car decks more than passenger capacity?

The harbour at Ardrossan is meant to be closing soon to get upgraded. The Arran ferry will run from Troon while that's done.

Thanks. The current crew is only 26. If they have built sleeping accom for 50+ crew that does seem a bit OTT.

Seems like this is a really touchy subject so I'm treading carefully here. I thought Radio Scotland was generally a good source of info for most of you on here but apparently not in this case!!

[ronaldo7]

Thanks. The current crew is only 26. If they have built sleeping accom for 50+ crew that does seem a bit OTT.

Seems like this is a really touchy subject so I'm treading carefully here. I thought Radio Scotland was generally a good source of info for most of you on here but apparently not in this case!!

Hot Bunking is not something you want to do in this day and age.

[JimBHibees]

Do you honestly think that the expert that Radio Scotland got on, just made this stuff up?

Wouldn't rule it out can remember the BBC putting on live tv a guy who was in reception for an interview for a completely unrelated job to what he was asked to speak about :greengrin

[He's here!]

It's not one against the other, both are unbelievable waste of public funds. There has to be sackings

Bearing in mind nobody appears to have been answerable for the Scottish government admitting they acted unlawfully over the investigation into the Salmond sexual harassment claims, it's unlikely a single head will roll over this. The blame has basically been lumped on the long-departed Derek Mackay.

Said it earlier, but for as long as the 'another referendum is coming (honest)' blanket can be used to smother the critics, nobody from the SG will be held up to serious scrutiny over screw-ups like the ferries fiasco:

The SNP know they're incompetent. It's why they keep talking about independence (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/24/snp-know-incompetent-keep-talking-independence/)

Such tactics may not wash so readily once it finally dawns on the faithful that there's zero chance of another referendum in 2023.

[grunt]

The SNP know they're incompetent. It's why they keep talking about independence (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/24/snp-know-incompetent-keep-talking-independence/)

The Telegraph!! :greengrin

I know it's petty of me, but anyone who links to the Tories in-house newspaper as evidence for their viewpoint has forfeited the argument IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

Bearing in mind nobody appears to have been answerable for the Scottish government admitting they acted unlawfully over the investigation into the Salmond sexual harassment claims, it's unlikely a single head will roll over this. The blame has basically been lumped on the long-departed Derek Mackay.

Said it earlier, but for as long as the 'another referendum is coming (honest)' blanket can be used to smother the critics, nobody from the SG will be held up to serious scrutiny over screw-ups like the ferries fiasco:

The SNP know they're incompetent. It's why they keep talking about independence (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/24/snp-know-incompetent-keep-talking-independence/)

Such tactics may not wash so readily once it finally dawns on the faithful that there's zero chance of another referendum in 2023.

Are the SNP incompetent though? They appear to be the most competent govt in the UK just now?


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[Kato]

The Telegraph!! :greengrin

I know it's petty of me, but anyone who links to the Tories in-house newspaper as evidence for their viewpoint has forfeited the argument IMO.Russian financed in-house Tory paper.

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[Jack]

Are the SNP incompetent though? They appear to be the most competent govt in the UK just now?


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The SNP have certainly made mistakes and public money has been misspent. I think the huge difference between them and the current incumbents at Westminster is intent which is why the SNP is given easy/easier ride by those who vote for them.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP have certainly made mistakes and public money has been misspent. I think the huge difference between them and the current incumbents at Westminster is intent which is why the SNP are given easy/easier ride by those who vote for them.

Certainly not given an easier ride by the media? The £250m for ferries is chicken feed to what is being wasted elsewhere even this week but it’s all we here about in the news. Michelle Mone barely rates a mention in the news.


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[Stairway 2 7]

What reason won't they have an election in 2023? Is it they don't think they will get a legally binding one by then

[Moulin Yarns]

What reason won't they have an election in 2023? Is it they don't think they will get a legally binding one by then

There was an election in 2021, it will be 2026 before the next Scottish election. 😉

I know you meant to say referendum 😁

[Stairway 2 7]

There was an election in 2021, it will be 2026 before the next Scottish election. 😉

I know you meant to say referendum 😁

Aye referendum. I've just not seen why 2023 won't happen, seen someone mentioning Ukraine but that's obviously nonsense.

Is it not thinking we will get the win, if so then fair enough as it will be the last vote in decades. Or is it they won't get it to be legally binding in time

[wee_cooper]

Aye referendum. I've just not seen why 2023 won't happen, seen someone mentioning Ukraine but that's obviously nonsense.

Is it not thinking we will get the win, if so then fair enough as it will be the last vote in decades. Or is it they won't get it to be legally binding in time

probably more like the latter. More likely is a General Election next year as I doubt the Tories will hold off till 2024.

[WeeRussell]

Thanks. The current crew is only 26. If they have built sleeping accom for 50+ crew that does seem a bit OTT.

Seems like this is a really touchy subject so I'm treading carefully here. I thought Radio Scotland was generally a good source of info for most of you on here but apparently not in this case!!

Wow! Even your bowing out lasted longer than your treading carefully 😂

Who is it specifically you think that feels touchy about this?

[Stairway 2 7]

Hopefully these ships turn out better

UK Defence Journal
@UKDefJournal
·

BAE Systems is looking for more than 400 skilled tradespeople to join their Clyde workforce in Glasgow as the Type 26 frigate programme gains momentum

[SteveHFC]

Aye referendum. I've just not seen why 2023 won't happen, seen someone mentioning Ukraine but that's obviously nonsense.

Is it not thinking we will get the win, if so then fair enough as it will be the last vote in decades. Or is it they won't get it to be legally binding in time

My fear is if it's a no vote again. We won't get another referendum ever again.

[WhileTheChief..]

My fear is if it's a no vote again. We won't get another referendum ever again.

If it's a no vote, they'll just try again in another 5 or 10 years i'd have thought?

[JeMeSouviens]

If it's a no vote, they'll just try again in another 5 or 10 years i'd have thought?

Québec has had 2 referendums: 1980 a 60-40 no, 1995 a baw-hair 50.5-49.5 no. Following 1995, everyone assumed it was only a matter of time. There has not been a 3rd and the indy tide has more or less gone out.

Having said that there are obviously huge and important differences:

- The demographics are the opposite of ours, the older age groups favour indy.
- Québec now has a "short of independence" party, the CAQ, mainly composed of splitters from the pro-indy PQ. The CAQ is in favour of extracting the maximum for Québec within the Canadian federation, whether at the expense of Anglophone Canada or not.
- An inclusive indy side is hard to pull off when so much of the politics is wrapped in the language/culture of "New France".
- Québec is a genuinely powerful province within a federation.

But it is a warning that the seemingly inevitable is not inevitable.

[WhileTheChief..]

Would there be any harm in Scotland saying we will hold a referendum every x years?

It would keep both governments on their toes in perpetuity as they'd have to constantly try to keep everyone on side!

[Kato]

Would there be any harm in Scotland saying we will hold a referendum every x years?

It would keep both governments on their toes in perpetuity as they'd have to constantly try to keep everyone on side!Would be an even worse popularity competition than we have now.

The country needs a plan for the long term. Pandering to clicks and likes is all we have.

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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60939628

It's not so much his daily rate which strikes me as the issue here but the fact that as 'turnaround director' the turnaround achieved seems to have been negligible to non-existent.

[JimBHibees]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60939628

It's not so much his daily rate which strikes me as the issue here but the fact that as 'turnaround director' the turnaround achieved seems to have been negligible to non-existent.

Shows how out of touch Scottish Labour are if they think Lionel Messi is on 3k a day :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

That'll be a class trip

rnal
@UKDefJournal
·
28m
HMS Glasgow, currently being built on the Clyde, is to be used to ferry passengers between Scottish islands after a request from the Scottish Government due to delays with the ferries being built at Port Glasgow

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd remind about the date first before it kicks off actually

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd remind about the date first before it kicks off actually

Due to be operational from 2026, I think that even the Glen Sannock will be running before then 😉

[He's here!]

'Scottish government marked own homework over ferries fiasco':

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-ferries-fiasco-has-taken-another-nasty-turn

[James310]

'Scottish government marked own homework over ferries fiasco':

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-ferries-fiasco-has-taken-another-nasty-turn

I saw none of the former managers of Ferguson Marine were allowed to speak to Audit Scotland as they had all signed gagging orders as part of their package when leaving. Audit Scotland asked the Scottish Government to relax the gagging orders so they could speak to them but the Government refused.

[Skol]

I had the misfortune to get stuck behind blackford on the way to the game today.

[Berwickhibby]

I had the misfortune to get stuck behind blackford on the way to the game today.

You have my deepest sympathy :greengrin

[greenginger]

I had the misfortune to get stuck behind blackford on the way to the game today.


Was he heading for posh seats or mixing with the plebs ?

[Skol]

Was he heading for posh seats or mixing with the plebs ?

Brunswick road so too early to tell !

Although I guess he had at least one encounter with a pleb.

[He's here!]

I saw none of the former managers of Ferguson Marine were allowed to speak to Audit Scotland as they had all signed gagging orders as part of their package when leaving. Audit Scotland asked the Scottish Government to relax the gagging orders so they could speak to them but the Government refused.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20041188.derek-mackay-vows-set-record-straight-holyrood-ferry-fiasco-inquiry/

'I was fourth in pecking order behind Sturgeon, Swinney and Brown,' says Mackay.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20041188.derek-mackay-vows-set-record-straight-holyrood-ferry-fiasco-inquiry/

'I was fourth in pecking order behind Sturgeon, Swinney and Brown,' says Mackay.

Derek ‘Peado’ Mackay is stating he is now prepared to give evidence in the Ferry mess

[Jack]

Derek ‘Peado’ Mackay is stating he is now prepared to give evidence in the Ferry mess

A pretty dodgy accusation to make given the police said no laws had been broken.

[Berwickhibby]

A pretty dodgy accusation to make given the police said no laws had been broken.

So grooming a young boy is acceptable behaviour the man is a beast in my book regardless

[Jack]

So grooming a young boy is acceptable behaviour the man is a beast in my book regardless

I'm in no way defending what he did. Its what you've written I'd suggest is actionable.

[Berwickhibby]

I'm in no way defending what he did. Its what you've written I'd suggest is actionable.

If he had been a MSP of any other party I doubt you would not have this opinion, where if he had been Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or whoever my opinion would still be the same.

[Jack]

If he had been a MSP of any other party I doubt you would not have this opinion, where if he had been Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or whoever my opinion would still be the same.

Absolutely. In the eyes of the law he has not committed a crime. But I've been questioning your actions not his. I'd suggest your comment is quite possibly libelous.

No matter what I think personally of any politician, or anyone else for that matter, I wouldn't be going on a public forum describing them as something the police have investigated him for and stated quite clearly no law was broken.

[Stairway 2 7]

Absolutely. In the eyes of the law he has not committed a crime. But I've been questioning your actions not his. I'd suggest your comment is quite possibly libelous.

No matter what I think personally of any politician, or anyone else for that matter, I wouldn't be going on a public forum describing them as something the police have investigated him for and stated quite clearly no law was broken.
I'd doubt he'd want the publicity of taking a football fan to court, especially although not illegal definitely dodgy and verging on grooming

[Berwickhibby]

Absolutely. In the eyes of the law he has not committed a crime. But I've been questioning your actions not his. I'd suggest your comment is quite possibly libelous.

No matter what I think personally of any politician, or anyone else for that matter, I wouldn't be going on a public forum describing them as something the police have investigated him for and stated quite clearly no law was broken.

There is a whole string of posts discussing Prince Andrew’s beast like behaviour and he has never been found guilty or charged with any crime….I don’t recall you posting about others describing him as a peado libellous… both escaped justice in my opinion

[Jack]

There is a whole string of posts discussing Prince Andrew’s beast like behaviour and he has never been found guilty or charged with any crime….I don’t recall you posting about others describing him as a peado libellous… both escaped justice in my opinion

I can't remember looking at that thread as I had no interest in the subject so I can't comment on that.

[Sergio sledge]

https://mullandionaferrycommittee.org/2022/04/03/two-ferries-two-buyers-same-shipyard-but-two-very-different-prices/

I don't know the history or leanings of the source, and I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions regarding the tendering process and, presumably, privatisation making things better, but I thought this was an interesting comparison between Norwegian ferries getting built at the same time as CalMac's new ferries in Turkey.

Having used the Norwegian ferries a few times I have to say the operation, efficiency and reliability puts our ferries to shame.

[Ozyhibby]

https://mullandionaferrycommittee.org/2022/04/03/two-ferries-two-buyers-same-shipyard-but-two-very-different-prices/

I don't know the history or leanings of the source, and I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions regarding the tendering process and, presumably, privatisation making things better, but I thought this was an comparison between Norwegian ferries getting built at the same time as CalMac's new ferries in Turkey.

Having used the Norwegian ferries a few times I have to say the operation, efficiency and reliability puts our ferries to shame.

That makes horrible reading. They should be going to the Turks and asking if they can just have two more of what the Norwegians ordered.


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[Skol]

That makes horrible reading. They should be going to the Turks and asking if they can just have two more of what the Norwegians ordered.


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No idea if its true, but apparently we pay more because of the bespoke nature of our designs. Much of which are based on demands from unions for on board crew facilities

[Ozyhibby]

No idea if its true, but apparently we pay more because of the bespoke nature of our designs. Much of which are based on demands from unions for on board crew facilities

What is the longest crossing these boats do? Surely we shouldn’t need on board cabins for crew?


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[Skol]

What is the longest crossing these boats do? Surely we shouldn’t need on board cabins for crew?


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That was my immediate thought, but apparently its for when they are not sailing, the crew need living and leisure facilities on board and having such facilities on land is not acceptable to the unions.

[Just Alf]

That was my immediate thought, but apparently its for when they are not sailing, the crew need living and leisure facilities on board and having such facilities on land is not acceptable to the unions.Crazy... it would be cheaper to buy a nearby hotel and set it up as crew quarters!

[Sergio sledge]

Crazy... it would be cheaper to buy a nearby hotel and set it up as crew quarters!

Yeah you would think so, they could buy a hotel at every port they sail from for less than the additional cost of one single ferry.

You've got to wonder why in Norway they only need 10 crew for their larger ferry but we have facilities for 31?

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah you would think so, they could buy a hotel at every port they sail from for less than the additional cost of one single ferry.

You've got to wonder why in Norway they only need 10 crew for their larger ferry but we have facilities for 31?

I think that’s down to the fact we feel the need to put restaurants and bars on ferries even if it’s only a short trip.


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[JeMeSouviens]

What is the longest crossing these boats do? Surely we shouldn’t need on board cabins for crew?


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I think the longest calmac sailing is Oban-Barra which takes about 5 hours, but I guess they usually sail there and back as one long shift?

The Islay ferry they're talking about in that article is just over 2 hours. They do 4 or 5 crossings a day, some to Port Ellen and some to Port Askaig.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the longest calmac sailing is Oban-Barra which takes about 5 hours, but I guess they usually sail there and back as one long shift?

The Islay ferry they're talking about in that article is just over 2 hours. They do 4 or 5 crossings a day, some to Port Ellen and some to Port Askaig.

So there absolutely zero need for on board accommodation. And if this was run by a private business that had to make money, there wouldn’t be.


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[Stairway 2 7]

For they short journeys it should be kitted out like a bus. You could have a hot drinks and a snacks vending machine if needed.

[WhileTheChief..]

So there absolutely zero need for on board accommodation. And if this was run by a private business that had to make money, there wouldn’t be.


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I mentioned this on another thread.

Expert on Radio Scotland talking about the design of the boats being all wrong and having sleeping quarters for up to 50 staff, amongst many other problems.

It was rubbished though, cause folk took it as a criticism of the SNP gov.

[WhileTheChief..]

For they short journeys it should be kitted out like a bus. You could have a hot drinks and a snacks vending machine if needed.

The Ardrossan crossing is 45 mins but the boats have restaurants to cater for 3 course meals on them!!!

[Sergio sledge]

The Ardrossan crossing is 45 mins but the boats have restaurants to cater for 3 course meals on them!!!

Mental.

[marinello59]

So there absolutely zero need for on board accommodation. And if this was run by a private business that had to make money, there wouldn’t be.


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When I was at sea a lot of people genuinely used to think that we tied up every night and all went to sleep. Good to see that level of misunderstanding as to how vessels are actually run is still around to provide a few laughs. :greengrin
Seafarers rights have been eroded massively since the early 70s. Blaming the cost of new ferries on Union demands is really no different from laying the blame for the P and O crews sacking on themselves for requiring decent wages. I do respect that you have always been consistent with your Thatcherite anti union views. For me though the most important thing by far any of us can do at the present time to improve our day to day lives is to join a Union .

[marinello59]

The Ardrossan crossing is 45 mins but the boats have restaurants to cater for 3 course meals on them!!!

Self service cafeteria style restaraunts that people actually use. Let’s not try to pretend there’s full silver service going on. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

When I was at sea a lot of people genuinely used to think that we tied up every night and all went to sleep. Good to see that level of misunderstanding as to how vessels are actually run is still around to provide a few laughs. :greengrin
Seafarers rights have been eroded massively since the early 70s. Blaming the cost of new ferries on Union demands is really no different from laying the blame for the P and O crews sacking on themselves for requiring decent wages. I do respect that you have always been consistent with your Thatcherite anti union views. For me though the most important thing by far any of us can do at the present time to improve our day to day lives is to join a Union .

I bet the crew on those Norwegian boats are earning a pittance as well. [emoji849]
If a boats crossing time is only a couple of hours, why do staff need to live aboard?


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[Mon_the_cabbage]

I mentioned this on another thread.

Expert on Radio Scotland talking about the design of the boats being all wrong and having sleeping quarters for up to 50 staff, amongst many other problems.

It was rubbished though, cause folk took it as a criticism of the SNP gov.

With all due respect it was rubbished because it is erm rubbish. Nothing to do with SNP.
Cal Mac in line with most other ferry companies operate an offshore/onshore shift pattern. Typically this can be two weeks on/ two weeks off.

A quick google shows DFDS and P & O (not the best example I admit) operate in the same patterns.

[Ozyhibby]

Self service restaraunts that people actually use. Let’s not try to pretend there’s full silver service going on. :greengrin

I’m sure they are used but are they cost effective? If they are making new ferries unaffordable, are they worth it?
I’m not really making a point about workers conditions, this is about why we are paying double what the Norwegians are paying for these boats. Sounds like we need a lot of new ones and it’s time we looked at getting them a bit cheaper.


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[marinello59]

I bet the crew on those Norwegian boats are earning a pittance as well. [emoji849]
If a boats crossing time is only a couple of hours, why do staff need to live aboard?


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Do you honestly think these large vessels are like cars, the crew hop on, do their single crossing for the day then tie up and go home?:greengrin
When do you think maintenance is done? How about security whilst alongside? Or the nights that can be spent constantly checking and adjusting moorings whilst alongside when the wind gets up. Who moves the vessel when another arrival needs the berth? When is the compulsory regular onboard training done. Do you think the crews all live within commuting distance of the vessel they are employed on? Have you considered the cost of onshore food , travel and accomodation costs?
I’ll stop now, I’m even finding myself annoying. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Self service cafeteria style restaraunts that people actually use. Let’s not try to pretend there’s full silver service going on. :greengrin

Why is any needed if not in other nations. Why does Norway need only 11 staff. I'm sure they are just as safe

[Mon_the_cabbage]

Do you honestly think these large vessels are like cars, the crew hop on, do their single crossing for the day then tie up and go home?:greengrin
When do you think maintenance is done? How about security whilst alongside? Or the nights that can be spent constantly checking and adjusting moorings whilst alongside when the wind gets up. Who moves the vessel when another arrival needs the berth? When is the compulsory regular onboard training done. Do you think the crews all live within commuting distance of the vessel they are employed on? Have you considered the cost of onshore food , travel and accomodation costs?
I’ll stop now, I’m even finding myself annoying. :greengrin

I’m glad you’ve arrived! 😬😬😬😬

I’ve been relying on what I knew of a Cal Mac officer I know through my daughter! I can pipe down now!

[ronaldo7]

The Ardrossan crossing is 45 mins but the boats have restaurants to cater for 3 course meals on them!!!

Interesting that you've picked out this crossing, as it's the only one to offer food. The rest of the ferries only offer tea, coffee, and snacks as far as I can see.

Pesky Scots, wanting better services for their cash. 😆

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting that you've picked out this crossing, as it's the only one to offer food. The rest of the ferries only offer tea, coffee, and snacks as far as I can see.

Pesky Scots, wanting better services for their cash. 😆

Both ships are double the price due to needing catering facilities and 3 times the staff than Norway

[Skol]

I’m sure they are used but are they cost effective? If they are making new ferries unaffordable, are they worth it?
I’m not really making a point about workers conditions, this is about why we are paying double what the Norwegians are paying for these boats. Sounds like we need a lot of new ones and it’s time we looked at getting them a bit cheaper.


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There is an irony here that Norway are held up as an example of why Scotland should be independent, but when its suggested we follow their lead its not workable !

I know this is a small thing in the bigger scheme of things, but this is an example where different thinking is required.

I get that boats need looking after, but accommodation and gyms on board for the few when you could have that on shore just doesnt make sense.

[Just Alf]

I think I should probably point out there's a few indy/snp supporters arguing that these ferries are overpriced... its really not a case of snp can do no bad so nothing to see here as is some times made out.

[ronaldo7]

Both ships are double the price due to needing catering facilities and 3 times the staff than Norway

I wasn't commenting on the new boats, it was the facilities currently offered I was commenting on. I'll have a look at your link regarding the 2 new boats and comparisons to Norway later, if that's ok. 😉

[Stairway 2 7]

I wasn't commenting on the new boats, it was the facilities currently offered I was commenting on. I'll have a look at your link regarding the 2 new boats and comparisons to Norway later, if that's ok. 😉

Not my link but it's up to you and overall not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things

[Ozyhibby]

There is an irony here that Norway are held up as an example of why Scotland should be independent, but when its suggested we follow their lead its not workable !

I know this is a small thing in the bigger scheme of things, but this is an example where different thinking is required.

I get that boats need looking after, but accommodation and gyms on board for the few when you could have that on shore just doesnt make sense.

I’m saying copy Norway. [emoji106]


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[ronaldo7]

Not my link but it's up to you and overall not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things

👍.

Sorry, I thought it was yours. 😮

Apologies, it's been a long day. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

I think I should probably point out there's a few indy/snp supporters arguing that these ferries are overpriced... its really not a case of snp can do no bad so nothing to see here as is some times made out.

I’m struggling how anyone could see this as a constitutional issue?


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[weecounty hibby]

I’m struggling how anyone could see this as a constitutional issue?


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Totally agree, but it is being used by some as a"Scotland can't possibly govern itself because if this fiasco" by a lot of people. Mostly people who want to keep us tied to a government who has wasted billions on tack and trace, HS2 massively overspent, ditto Crossrail, ditto aircraft carriers, spent £50m on a ferry company that didn't actually have any ferries, 900k on a bridge survey that every expert told them couldn't be done etc etc. The ferry issue has Ben handled badly and the government should be accountable but ffs let's get it in perspective. The BBC in Scotland have been leading with this and following the FM about for a fortnight now which would be fine if they held others to that same standard

[WhileTheChief..]

Interesting that you've picked out this crossing, as it's the only one to offer food. The rest of the ferries only offer tea, coffee, and snacks as far as I can see.

Pesky Scots, wanting better services for their cash. 😆

Not so much that I picked it, it was what they were discussing on the news on the radio.

[WhileTheChief..]

Self service cafeteria style restaraunts that people actually use. Let’s not try to pretend there’s full silver service going on. :greengrin

Are you meaning on the existing boats or the new ones?

[marinello59]

Are you meaning on the existing boats or the new ones?

That’s what you get in the existing boats.

[He's here!]

So there absolutely zero need for on board accommodation. And if this was run by a private business that had to make money, there wouldn’t be.


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I'd imagine there is a requirement for some on-board accommodation to cater for staff who may be seconded on to these boats but don't live within commuting distance? Plus there will be maintenance required while in port, but it's the scale of the staff facilities (including gyms?!) which seems excessive for such relatively short routes.

FWIW I once got the ferry to Colonsay regularly for a work contract and the on-board staff were all local folk.

[WhileTheChief..]

That’s what you get in the existing boats.

So the guy on the news was asking why we need to move from this to the fancy catering with over 50 staff.

If there's no silver service now, we don't need it in the future, do we?!!

[CropleyWasGod]

So the guy on the news was asking why we need to move from this to the fancy catering with over 50 staff.

If there's no silver service now, we don't need it in the future, do we?!!

I didn't hear the guy on the news.

did he confirm that there would be silver service on both new ferries?

did he say there was to be 50 staff on each ferry, or in total?

did he mention the 40% increase in space that would help expand the economies of Jura and Islay?

[marinello59]

So the guy on the news was asking why we need to move from this to the fancy catering with over 50 staff.

If there's no silver service now, we don't need it in the future, do we?!!

Has anybody said that Cal Mac are going to be providing silver service dining? These ferries are for the Islay crossing which takes two hours, there has to be some form of catering, I’d imagine the offering will be pretty much in line with what it is now. There certainly won’t be over 50 staff employed in hospitality services on board. Somebody is making stuff up to suit their own argument. (Not you I hasten to add.)
Passengers wanting to eat on a long journey and crews getting basic gym facilities and a bed of their own whilst they live and work away from home. It’s needless opulence I tell you. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Has anybody said that Cal Mac are going to be providing silver service dining? These ferries are for the Islay crossing which takes two hours, there has to be some form of catering, I’d imagine the offering will be pretty much in line with what it is now. There certainly won’t be over 50 staff employed in hospitality services on board. Somebody is making stuff up to suit their own argument. (Not you I hasten to add.)
Passengers wanting to eat on a long journey and crews getting basic gym facilities and a bed of their own whilst they live and work away from home. It’s needless opulence I tell you. :greengrin

Why does Norway need 11 staff but us 50. Why do we need catering for a 2 hour journey buy Norwegians don't for longer.

[Jack]

Things have come a long way since Ben-Hur was a galley slave! I wonder if the crew gym even has a rowing machine!!

[Stairway 2 7]

Things have come a long way since Ben-Hur was a galley slave! I wonder if the crew gym even has a rowing machine!!

I'm sure the crew gym doesn't make it double the price. More needing catering for 2 hour journeys and multiple times the staff of Norway

[WhileTheChief..]

I didn't hear the guy on the news.

did he confirm that there would be silver service on both new ferries?

did he say there was to be 50 staff on each ferry, or in total?

did he mention the 40% increase in space that would help expand the economies of Jura and Islay?

The silver service comment was me being cheeky with marinello!

I think he said 50 for each boat but I could be wrong.

He only talked about the Ardrossan crossing.

He also said something about them being too big for the port there and that they would have difficulty turning or something.

I dunno, it was just something I caught on Drivetime on the way home from work last week. He was some sort of shipping expert that had something to do with ferries!

I'm just passing on what I heard. Happy to accept I maybe picked some info up wrong.

[grunt]

He also said something about them being too big for the port there and that they would have difficulty turning or something.
Do you really think that someone would have commissioned the design, development and build of a ferry which was "too big" for the port it is intended for ????

[James310]

Do you really think that someone would have commissioned the design, development and build of a ferry which was "too big" for the port it is intended for ????

https://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/19592410.ardrossan-harbour-no-way-port-ready-ferry/

Ardrossan Harbour: 'no way the port would be ready' for ferry'

North Ayrshire’s Council leader has spoken of a “systemic issue” around the delivery of projects involving ferries.

He said such obstacles have made it “virtually impossible” that Ardrossan will be ready to host the new delay-hit Glen Sannox vessel if it is finally completed next summer.

Council leader Joe Cullinane hit out after councillors probed the possibility of further delays in an estimated £40 million plan to upgrade Ardrossan Harbour, to allow it to host the troubled vessel.

Edit: you are correct the new ferry was designed for the new harbour, but the new harbour looks like it won't be ready.

[Stairway 2 7]

Does it mean the pier upgrade needed due to bigger size? No idea if was planned anyway

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/1153021/23m-pier-upgrade-needed-because-new-ferry-is-too-big/


This says too big but means by passenger numbers and too many staff

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18820291.anger-scotlands-ferry-fleet-deemed-big-islands-taxpayer-burden/

Anger as Scotland's ferry fleet deemed too 'big for islands and a taxpayer burden

[LeithMike]

Does the ferry actually need the staff accommodation? Why not just make provision in the ports themselves or do something similar to airlines? I doubt planes are built with staff accommodation and gyms and that airlines just do deals on local accommodation. Surely something similar is possible and more strategic.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Why does Norway need 11 staff but us 50. Why do we need catering for a 2 hour journey buy Norwegians don't for longer.

Maybe the Norwegians are more comfortable with picnic lunches?





:cb:

[Stairway 2 7]

Does the ferry actually need the staff accommodation? Why not just make provision in the ports themselves or do something similar to airlines? I doubt planes are built with staff accommodation and gyms and that airlines just do deals on local accommodation. Surely something similar is possible and more strategic.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
With the extra money they could have a state owned hotel at each port

[WhileTheChief..]

Do you really think that someone would have commissioned the design, development and build of a ferry which was "too big" for the port it is intended for ????

Again, not me saying it, just passing on what was said.

A few links now been posted that appear to say similar.

[LeithMike]

Do you really think that someone would have commissioned the design, development and build of a ferry which was "too big" for the port it is intended for ????Yes, absolutely. Public procurement is conducted terribly. Remember the works on Leith walk for trams that never went there? The nimrods that were built then scrapped before going into service? That's just the tip of the iceberg.

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[Ozyhibby]

Yes, absolutely. Public procurement is conducted terribly. Remember the works on Leith walk for trams that never went there? The nimrods that were built then scrapped before going into service? That's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Public procurement is a total shambles in this country. I think one of the worst offenders is the MoD.


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[TrapperJohn]

Hardly ever post but as a confused independence supporter … What is the Scottish Government playing at?

Rant on:
How can Scotland go from building the Queensferry Crossing to screwing up on the ferries for the Western Isles?

How can Pentland Ferries build and operate a successful ferry from Caithness to Orkney but Calmac/CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t do the same on the Western Isles?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/)

How can Pentland Ferries have MV Pentalina and MV Alfred built for £15M a piece but CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t for £97M, then £200M and still rising?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt accept that there are major ferry issues for the Western Isles but reject solutions to the ferry shortage?
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/ (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt continually ignore industry experts?
seatransport.com (designer of MV Pentalina) and their Scots naval designer Dr Stuart Balatyne have made numerous offers to CMAC/CMAL and Scottish Government since 2008 - from royalty free designs, to building a fleet, to using Fergusons and InchGreen.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/ (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/)
https://archive.ph/vqSva (https://archive.ph/vqSva)
https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay (https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay)


How long can the ScottishGovt keep deflecting the blame?
https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight (https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight)


Is this sheer incompetence or is this political stubbornness just to stay in power as a devolved govt blaming everyone else or worse…is this some plan to dismantle the desire for an independent Scotland?

Rant off:

A very disillusioned independence supporter.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60994370

Is this an error on the BBC website? I thought she was jailed for this years ago?

[Steven79]

Hardly ever post but as a confused independence supporter … What is the Scottish Government playing at?

Rant on:
How can Scotland go from building the Queensferry Crossing to screwing up on the ferries for the Western Isles?

How can Pentland Ferries build and operate a successful ferry from Caithness to Orkney but Calmac/CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t do the same on the Western Isles?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/)

How can Pentland Ferries have MV Pentalina and MV Alfred built for £15M a piece but CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t for £97M, then £200M and still rising?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt accept that there are major ferry issues for the Western Isles but reject solutions to the ferry shortage?
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/ (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt continually ignore industry experts?
seatransport.com (designer of MV Pentalina) and their Scots naval designer Dr Stuart Balatyne have made numerous offers to CMAC/CMAL and Scottish Government since 2008 - from royalty free designs, to building a fleet, to using Fergusons and InchGreen.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/ (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/)
https://archive.ph/vqSva (https://archive.ph/vqSva)
https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay (https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay)


How long can the ScottishGovt keep deflecting the blame?
https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight (https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight)


Is this sheer incompetence or is this political stubbornness just to stay in power as a devolved govt blaming everyone else or worse…is this some plan to dismantle the desire for an independent Scotland?

Rant off:

A very disillusioned independence supporter.

Since Salmond left the SNP have become rudderless.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Crunchie]

Hardly ever post but as a confused independence supporter … What is the Scottish Government playing at?

Rant on:
How can Scotland go from building the Queensferry Crossing to screwing up on the ferries for the Western Isles?

How can Pentland Ferries build and operate a successful ferry from Caithness to Orkney but Calmac/CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t do the same on the Western Isles?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/timeline/)

How can Pentland Ferries have MV Pentalina and MV Alfred built for £15M a piece but CMAL/ScottishGovt can’t for £97M, then £200M and still rising?
https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/ (https://pentlandferries.co.uk/new-boat/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pentalina)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt accept that there are major ferry issues for the Western Isles but reject solutions to the ferry shortage?
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/ (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/4061438/transport-scotland-says-it-has-no-plans-to-buy-pentalina-but-it-might-lease-it/)


How can CMAL/ScottishGovt continually ignore industry experts?
seatransport.com (designer of MV Pentalina) and their Scots naval designer Dr Stuart Balatyne have made numerous offers to CMAC/CMAL and Scottish Government since 2008 - from royalty free designs, to building a fleet, to using Fergusons and InchGreen.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/ (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13169775.shipbuilding-expert-scotland-can-thrive-without-westminster-military-orders/)
https://archive.ph/vqSva (https://archive.ph/vqSva)
https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay (https://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/inchgreen-dry-dock-and-repair-quay)


How long can the ScottishGovt keep deflecting the blame?
https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight (https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-the-ferries-fiasco-is-a-coverup-in-plain-sight)


Is this sheer incompetence or is this political stubbornness just to stay in power as a devolved govt blaming everyone else or worse…is this some plan to dismantle the desire for an independent Scotland?

Rant off:

A very disillusioned independence supporter.


You're not alone

[He's here!]

'FM accused of cover-up over official's death'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61000088

[Stairway 2 7]

'FM accused of cover-up over official's death'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61000088
I think it's stretching to blame NS here. Hospitals are unfortunately a dangerous place to be and no country managed infection control during this. She had quite a lot on her plate to be responsible for a single nhs enquiry

[Since90+2]

I think it's stretching to blame NS here. Hospitals are unfortunately a dangerous place to be and no country managed infection control during this. She had quite a lot on her plate to be responsible for a single nhs enquiry

If agree with that. I don't think NS has performed particularly well last 6 months (to be fair to her, she's basically carrying her party by herself) but I'm not sure a tragedy like this can be placed at her door.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61011696

I remain unclear about this. Is it a retrial? If so, on what grounds?

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61011696

I remain unclear about this. Is it a retrial? If so, on what grounds?

Judges Lord Carloway, Lord Glennie and Lord Turnbull quashed the ex-politician's embezzlement convictions following a hearing at the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh.

The judges made their ruling after hearing submissions, which cannot be reported for legal reasons, from defence advocate Gordon Jackson QC.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61011696

I remain unclear about this. Is it a retrial? If so, on what grounds?

It's a retrial. The original convictions were appealed, and quashed.

[He's here!]

It's a retrial. The original convictions were appealed, and quashed.

Cheers. Forgive my ignorance but why does her case then return to court?

[He's here!]

Sturgeon's secret state:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeons-secret-state

[CropleyWasGod]

Cheers. Forgive my ignorance but why does her case then return to court?

See LH's post above. Can only surmise the appeal court ordered it.

[grunt]

Sturgeon's secret state:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeons-secret-state
LOL. The Spectator!

Their writers are a list of the UK's biggest controversialists!
Liddle, Young, O'Neill - all people you should run a mile to avoid.
Save yourself time and ignore anything that comes from that cesspit.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/writers

[Berwickhibby]

LOL. The Spectator!

Their writers are a list of the UK's biggest controversialists!
Liddle, Young, O'Neill - all people you should run a mile to avoid.
Save yourself time and ignore anything that comes from that cesspit.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/writers

Strange …. I have the same opinion of the National :wink:

[grunt]

Strange …. I have the same opinion of the National :wink:
I'm sure you do. I'm content to not be a fan of anything associated with Rod Liddle.

[Just Alf]

Strange …. I have the same opinion of the National :wink:Lol ... as an indy supporter I share your opinion :agree:

[Berwickhibby]

I'm sure you do. I'm content to not be a fan of anything associated with Rod Liddle.

Liddle is another prick who writes pish in an attempt to appear relevant. His ultra right wing opinions are sickening, Also don’t read Spector

[He's here!]

LOL. The Spectator!

Their writers are a list of the UK's biggest controversialists!
Liddle, Young, O'Neill - all people you should run a mile to avoid.
Save yourself time and ignore anything that comes from that cesspit.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/writers

Spectator's arguably got the strongest team of quality writers contributing to any UK publication, hence its trend-busting circulation figures for a print magazine. I don't agree with all of the opinions by any means but refusing to read anything that doesn't tally with your own views is a lazy and easy get-out.

[Ozyhibby]

Spectator's arguably got the strongest team of quality writers contributing to any UK publication, hence its trend-busting circulation figures for a print magazine. I don't agree with all of the opinions by any means but refusing to read anything that doesn't tally with your own views is a lazy and easy get-out.

Or it could just reflect the growth of right wing thinking down south?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Spectator's arguably got the strongest team of quality writers contributing to any UK publication, hence its trend-busting circulation figures for a print magazine. I don't agree with all of the opinions by any means but refusing to read anything that doesn't tally with your own views is a lazy and easy get-out.

I think I'll stick with Viz for my quality writing 😉

[James310]

Spectator's arguably got the strongest team of quality writers contributing to any UK publication, hence its trend-busting circulation figures for a print magazine. I don't agree with all of the opinions by any means but refusing to read anything that doesn't tally with your own views is a lazy and easy get-out.

The thing is there are lots of articles that would tally with lots on here though. Some example headlines from articles:

How to waste an 80 seat majority
Zelensky has saved Boris
Boris's Brexit Ukraine comparison was a mistake
Is Boris in denial about the impending economic crisis
Boris is finished, its when not if

And many more like it.

Can't see The National running anything that's remotely critical of the SNP.

[grunt]

Spectator's arguably got the strongest team of quality writers contributing to any UK publication ...

Right. Ok. If you say so.

[James310]

Or it could just reflect the growth of right wing thinking down south?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet growth has been highest in Scotland.

https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1360602515377709063?t=sUz26EvRIPw3gWfg4j885Q&s=19


But he rather understates The Spectator’s popularity north of the border. Our surge to 100,000 sales has been disproportionately helped by surge in Scottish readership. Per capita, its (way) higher than England.

[Ozyhibby]

Yet growth has been highest in Scotland.

https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1360602515377709063?t=sUz26EvRIPw3gWfg4j885Q&s=19


But he rather understates The Spectator’s popularity north of the border. Our surge to 100,000 sales has been disproportionately helped by surge in Scottish readership. Per capita, its (way) higher than England.

I’m not surprised. They have made a massive push to gain unionist readers in Scotland. They run about as many negative stories about NS as they do about Megan Markle or the EU.


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[wee_cooper]

LOL. The Spectator!

Their writers are a list of the UK's biggest controversialists!
Liddle, Young, O'Neill - all people you should run a mile to avoid.
Save yourself time and ignore anything that comes from that cesspit.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/writers

I read it but am an SNP voter. Nothing wrong with reading other people's views.

[Jack]

With regards to the spectator it's just as well the articles, most of, aren't fact checked.

[He's here!]

With regards to the spectator it's just as well the articles, most of, aren't fact checked.

You know this for a 'fact'?

[He's here!]

See LH's post above. Can only surmise the appeal court ordered it.

I guess so. Are different witnesses then able to be called? Today's evidence that McGarry was simply handed signed blank cheques by the signatory to the group's accounts casts WFI in a pretty embarrassing light. I don't recall this sort of evidence being presented last time but maybe I've just forgotten:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61041946

[greenginger]

Nicola caught breaking face mask laws.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61135232

I wonder if she will resign for breaking the laws she brought in herself . :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Nicola caught breaking face mask laws.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61135232

I wonder if she will resign for breaking the laws she brought in herself . :greengrin

Err…. Naw, she won’t even get a Fixed Penalty Notice

[weecounty hibby]

Nicola caught breaking face mask laws.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61135232

I wonder if she will resign for breaking the laws she brought in herself . :greengrin

Its getting petty as **** and mostly from the unionists. There are multiple pictures of party leaders and campaigners indoors and in groups in close proximity to each other but someone felt it necessary to report NS to the police!? What a ****ing waste of police time and what a way to actually announce you have no policies or ideas that will get folk to vote for you

[greenginger]

Err…. Naw, she won’t even get a Fixed Penalty Notice

So the SNP creation, Police Scotland , won’t fine their boss .

[Stairway 2 7]

Its getting petty as **** and mostly from the unionists. There are multiple pictures of party leaders and campaigners indoors and in groups in close proximity to each other but someone felt it necessary to report NS to the police!? What a ****ing waste of police time and what a way to actually announce you have no policies or ideas that will get folk to vote for you

It's law to have one in the barbers. She should get fined like all the tories. She made the rules, preached them, so live by them. Not as boris who lied to parliament, but those who make the rules should follow them and no make daft excuses

[hibby rae]

Nicola caught breaking face mask laws.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61135232

I wonder if she will resign for breaking the laws she brought in herself . :greengrin

That's pathetic stuff from the Tories, especially as the rule will over in less than 6 hours time. Trying anything tk draw attention away from their leader.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's pathetic stuff from the Tories, especially as the rule will over in less than 6 hours time. Trying anything tk draw attention away from their leader.

Nonsense both leaders made the rules and should be punished like the riff raff.

[James310]

It's law to have one in the barbers. She should get fined like all the tories. She made the rules, preached them, so live by them. Not as boris who lied to parliament, but those who make the rules should follow them and no make daft excuses

It's the most minor of minor breaches, but...she extended the law to have face masks and she has broken that law (for the second time). Nothing should come of it but she must expect the reaction when she has been telling us all week if you break the law you should resign.

[Just Alf]

So the SNP creation, Police Scotland , won’t fine their boss .Hope not, she should be treated the same as everyone else surely?


Ps I spotted yer smiley in the 1st post and did take it you were being a bit tounge in cheek :greengrin

[greenginger]

O
Hope not, she should be treated the same as everyone else surely?


Ps I spotted yer smiley in the 1st post and did take it you were being a bit tounge in cheek :greengrin

Yep, you’re right.

[hibby rae]

Nonsense both leaders made the rules and should be punished like the riff raff.

Well she has said that she forgot for a few seconds and then put one on, everyone makes an honest mistake sometimes, and there's no reason to think anything different happened. In a two-year period she's forgotten to wear a mask twice. Big difference between having a brain fart and deceiving the entire nation, and House, through consistently breaking the rules during the most severe period of the pandemic.

The two leaders and scenarios are poles apart from each other and can't be equated.

[Just Alf]

O

Yep, you’re right.I'm so happy lol :-)

[Lendo]

Well she has said that she forgot for a few seconds and then put one on, everyone makes an honest mistake sometimes, and there's no reason to think anything different happened. In a two-year period she's forgotten to wear a mask twice. Big difference between having a brain fart and deceiving the entire nation, and House, through consistently breaking the rules during the most severe period of the pandemic.

The two leaders and scenarios are poles apart from each other and can't be equated.

I say without a mask on for 20 minutes on the train on Friday, not in protest or to be difficult, I simply just forgot. The minute I realised I stuck it on. Everyone is human and can make a mistake.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well she has said that she forgot for a few seconds and then put one on, everyone makes an honest mistake sometimes, and there's no reason to think anything different happened. In a two-year period she's forgotten to wear a mask twice. Big difference between having a brain fart and deceiving the entire nation, and House, through consistently breaking the rules during the most severe period of the pandemic.

The two leaders and scenarios are poles apart from each other and can't be equated.
She wasn't just walking down the street then jumped in a random shop. She had a huge team with her and photogrophers, they would have talked before she walked in. She is going from person to person and getting videos without one. If it was a tory there would be fuming.

It is a nonsense but it's a nonsense she made the rules for, then extended after going to church without a mask. Having a cake on your birthday is no big deal, but if you decide the rules you should get done. If not everyone fined in the last two years should rip up their fines.

I've said repeatedly boris should walk, not for the cake but the lying to parliament. If more fines for parties come he should resign for that. NS shouldn't resign, but should take a fine or risk pissing off everyone fined.

The reply would be I doubt others got fined for not wearing a mask. But also no one will have got a fine for having a cake with staff. It doesn't matter, you make the rules stick by them

[Stokesy's on fire]

You know what Boris and Sturgeon are like the old firm they are both cheeks of the same smelly backside

[Stairway 2 7]

IMHO Sturgeon is a good person with flows like everyone, whilst boris is a ****

[Hibrandenburg]

So forgetting to put on a mask is now equivalent to holding several garden panties where no masks were worn and suitcases of alcohol were smuggled in to the party. Grasping at straws doesn't cover it.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

[greenginger]

So forgetting to put on a mask is now equivalent to holding several garden panties where no masks were worn and suitcases of alcohol were smuggled in to the party. Grasping at straws doesn't cover it.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

No masks were required at outside gatherings

No straws have been grasped . Who made the law ? Who broke the law ? Sturgeon :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Who made the law ? Who broke the law ? Sturgeon :agree:

Since it's Eastertime ... Jesus had a moustache. And Hitler did too. :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

No masks were required at outside gatherings

No straws have been grasped . Who made the law ? Who broke the law ? Sturgeon :agree:

Straws were grasped at the downing Street parties, all part of the games they were playing! 😉


What about the parties in 10 downing Street, indoors, with alcohol and without masks?!

[Santa Cruz]

No masks were required at outside gatherings

No straws have been grasped . Who made the law ? Who broke the law ? Sturgeon :agree:

Correct. In the video not one person out of the several present had a mask on. Sure, she can say she forgot, did she not notice everyone else surrounding her was breaking the law?

[Mcbizz1998]

Usual nationalist whatabouttery on here and social media.

Nicola Sturgeon was responsible for covid restrictions in Scotland, not Boris or the tories. Extended the mask mandate was a piece of covid theatre from Sturgeon, and she has been hoisted by her own petard. Glorious.

[Andy Bee]

So forgetting to put on a mask is now equivalent to holding several garden panties where no masks were worn and suitcases of alcohol were smuggled in to the party. Grasping at straws doesn't cover it.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk


Whilst I would never disregard anything this UK Government is capable of, why would they be holding "garden panties" and what the **** have you been googling if that indeed is a predictive text typo? :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

So forgetting to put on a mask is now equivalent to holding several garden panties where no masks were worn and suitcases of alcohol were smuggled in to the party. Grasping at straws doesn't cover it.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

Don't believe she forgot a mask. She would have talked before walking in with her large team. She takes a selfie with people without a mask and shakes his hair. As per the masks are for the cameras. Last week was the excuse, the Queen might have asked her to not wear one, talk about straw clutching.

If she doesn't take a fine it's a piss take to everyone who got one.

There's only whataboutary from one side, almost unanimously everyone said boris should walk. His was worse but unrelated. The rulers need to stick to the rules too

[Stairway 2 7]

Also in the video she put out there's about 10 people all without masks, in one small room. Do they not really care about the rules. Surely if she is meeting so many people she should say guys its actually illegal not to wear in the barbers. If she thought it was unsafe I guess she wouldn't have went in, even none of the staff had one

[Hibrandenburg]

Whilst I would never disregard anything this UK Government is capable of, why would they be holding "garden panties" and what the **** have you been googling if that indeed is a predictive text typo? :greengrin:faf:

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

[Jack]

If this was a staged event, in the barbers, with attendance by invitation only i.e. no general public allowed in would face masks be required?

[hibby rae]

She wasn't just walking down the street then jumped in a random shop. She had a huge team with her and photogrophers, they would have talked before she walked in. She is going from person to person and getting videos without one. If it was a tory there would be fuming.

It is a nonsense but it's a nonsense she made the rules for, then extended after going to church without a mask. Having a cake on your birthday is no big deal, but if you decide the rules you should get done. If not everyone fined in the last two years should rip up their fines.

I've said repeatedly boris should walk, not for the cake but the lying to parliament. If more fines for parties come he should resign for that. NS shouldn't resign, but should take a fine or risk pissing off everyone fined.

The reply would be I doubt others got fined for not wearing a mask. But also no one will have got a fine for having a cake with staff. It doesn't matter, you make the rules stick by them

In the 6 month period from the second half of last year, only 1 fine was handed out for not wearing a mask. And that was probably an extreme case.

It's not whataboutery when saying the two instances can't be equated, it's stating a fact. People weren't upset because he had a cake for his birthday, it's the consistent disregard, contempt and deception that is the issue. They knew what they were doing was wrong, and didn't care.

You can't say people would have talked before etc. it's more than possible there would have been a slip-up, because human error does happen. I've done it when I go in the office, I've got up from my desk and I'm halfway down the corridor before I realise and we've had it drilled into us to wear them inside and I've already been wearing it.

Now if it turns out she's been at it the whole time and ignored people when they've told her, that would be different, but I would bet that is not the case.

[Stairway 2 7]

In the 6 month period from the second half of last year, only 1 fine was handed out for not wearing a mask. And that was probably an extreme case.

It's not whataboutery when saying the two instances can't be equated, it's stating a fact. People weren't upset because he had a cake for his birthday, it's the consistent disregard, contempt and deception that is the issue. They knew what they were doing was wrong, and didn't care.

You can't say people would have talked before etc. it's more than possible there would have been a slip-up, because human error does happen. I've done it when I go in the office, I've got up from my desk and I'm halfway down the corridor before I realise and we've had it drilled into us to wear them inside and I've already been wearing it.

Now if it turns out she's been at it the whole time and ignored people when they've told her, that would be different, but I would bet that is not the case.

But I said last week the cake in the office with workmates doesn't matter that much its the lying to parliament. That was absolutely hounded with everyone saying it does matter, he makes the rules he should get fined for them. Has to go both ways they must want her fined too. No one got fined for having a cake in the office either. Tories have been trawling twitter this week putting up screenshots from NHS staffs feeds of them having cake and nibbles during the pandemic, shocking patter sharing it.

I've always said the lying to parliament was the thing, but many on here said both was. Now if he gets more fines for parties ect, that's also different.

[500miles]

If Nicola Sturgeon forgot to put her mask on for a minute, it's pretty desperate straw clutching from the right wing. I've done it loads of times and not realised until I past the fruit and veg aisle in tesco. Never thought for a second I'd be due a fine for it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't believe she just forgot. Would have been a briefing before she went in with her staff and umpteen camera men. She was going between people without a masks taking selfies.

If they make the rules, why didn't she say to all the staff to wear a mask. Why did they stay in a small room with 10 people without a mask. Surely ask them to mask or call the police if its against the law. More likely when the cameras were ready to roll mask went on

[hibby rae]

But I said last week the cake in the office with workmates doesn't matter that much its the lying to parliament. That was absolutely hounded with everyone saying it does matter, he makes the rules he should get fined for them. Has to go both ways they must want her fined too. No one got fined for having a cake in the office either. Tories have been trawling twitter this week putting up screenshots from NHS staffs feeds of them having cake and nibbles during the pandemic, shocking patter sharing it.

I've always said the lying to parliament was the thing, but many on here said both was. Now if he gets more fines for parties ect, that's also different.

But you're trying to make it seem what is probably a genuine mistake for a few seconds is the same as what the Tories have done. And it just isn't.

Even if it was just one incident each, Johnson had a party at a time when the pandemic was at it's most brutal stage (which is a very important point) and we know that that one party was part of a culture of rule breaking at No. 10. It seems to me that is the point people are making.

[Stairway 2 7]

But you're trying to make it seem what is probably a genuine mistake for a few seconds is the same as what the Tories have done. And it just isn't.

Even if it was just one incident each, Johnson had a party at a time when the pandemic was at it's most brutal stage (which is a very important point) and we know that that one party was part of a culture of rule breaking at No. 10. It seems to me that is the point people are making.

No I'm saying the ruling class need to stick by the rules they make and extend. No one got fined for not wearing a mask or having a birthday cake in the office. The tories acted despicably, loads should get the boot, especially boris for lying to parliament.

NS shouldn't quit obviously. But when she didn't wear a mask at the church service, then extended mask wearing. She's then jumping about a room with no one including staff wearing a mask.

[hibby rae]

No I'm saying the ruling class need to stick by the rules they make and extend. No one got fined for not wearing a mask or having a birthday cake in the office. The tories acted despicably, loads should get the boot, especially boris for lying to parliament.

NS shouldn't quit obviously. But when she didn't wear a mask at the church service, then extended mask wearing. She's then jumping about a room with no one including staff wearing a mask.

And the evidence suggests she has followed the rules, bar two minor slips in a two year period. You can guarantee if it had been more than that we would know about it.

Masks are done now if you want them to be, and this is a non-story being used as a tool to defend/deflect from the actions of others.

[lapsedhibee]

But I said last week the cake in the office with workmates doesn't matter that much its the lying to parliament. That was absolutely hounded with everyone saying it does matter, he makes the rules he should get fined for them. Has to go both ways they must want her fined too. No one got fined for having a cake in the office either. Tories have been trawling twitter this week putting up screenshots from NHS staffs feeds of them having cake and nibbles during the pandemic, shocking patter sharing it.

I've always said the lying to parliament was the thing, but many on here said both was. Now if he gets more fines for parties ect, that's also different.

You're completely ignoring the repeated offending at Downing St while you're trying to make your equivalence between Sturgeon's misdeed and Johnson's. His cake event was reported when it happened and people gave precisely zero *****. It's only since the repeated nature of the gatherings became widely known that anyone's been interested in it (including the police, who've surely only fined him £50 for that as a taster of much more to come).

It is the lying that's the thing, though, not whether or how many candles were on a ******* cake.

How long was it before Sturgeon put on a mask in the barber's? If it was less than nine minutes, let her off. If more than nine minutes, RESIGN!

[Stairway 2 7]

You're completely ignoring the repeated offending at Downing St while you're trying to make your equivalence between Sturgeon's misdeed and Johnson's. His cake event was reported when it happened and people gave precisely zero *****. It's only since the repeated nature of the gatherings became widely known that anyone's been interested in it (including the police, who've surely only fined him £50 for that as a taster of much more to come).

It is the lying that's the thing, though, not whether or how many candles were on a ******* cake.

How long was it before Sturgeon put on a mask in the barber's? If it was less than nine minutes, let her off. If more than nine minutes, RESIGN!

Your ignoring that I said the tories that were involved should resign. Your also ignoring that when I said last week the cake didn't matter it was the lying, people were frothing saying the cake does matter.

[lapsedhibee]

Your ignoring that I said the tories that were involved should resign. Your also ignoring that when I said last week the cake didn't matter it was the lying, people were frothing saying the cake does matter.

I know, the cake reference was about the general media and social media coverage, which has been predictably abysmal. Even now BBC is squeamish about suggesting that Johnson might have lied in Parliament. All the crap about 'inadvertently misleading the House' has been simply pathetic. Not sure that people on here were frothing about the cake.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know, the cake reference was about the general media and social media coverage, which has been predictably abysmal. Even now BBC is squeamish about suggesting that Johnson might have lied in Parliament. All the crap about 'inadvertently misleading the House' has been simply pathetic. Not sure that people on here were frothing about the cake.

There was a number that said the act does matter he broke the law ect. I said it gives them a smokescreen to say it was only a cake. He shouldn't go for that as we've all slipped up, he should go for lying to parliament. Obviously if he gets one for Abba party, he should go singularly for that anyway

[lapsedhibee]

It's very obvious what's happened at Barbergate. Sturgeon needs Johnson to stay as PM for her to have any chance of winning Indyref2, Johnson's under pressure to go for rulebreaking, she's deliberately tried to normalise rulebreaking to help relieve the pressure on him, calculating that she won't suffer long-term consequences herself because of the non-repetitive nature of her misdeed.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's very obvious what's happened at Barbergate. Sturgeon needs Johnson to stay as PM for her to have any chance of winning Indyref2, Johnson's under pressure to go for rulebreaking, she's deliberately tried to normalise rulebreaking to help relieve the pressure on him, calculating that she won't suffer long-term consequences herself because of the non-repetitive nature of her misdeed.

You bants. But I'd go as far as saying I'd doubt yes would win a referendum if Labour win the next election. Boris is surely Labour’s best chance of winning. A new leader and they will say forget about the past this is a new regime

[Ozyhibby]

This thing in the barber shop has been great for NS. It’s making her opponents look ridiculous. Even the BBC news were mocking the complainants this morning. With elections on the way, that can only help the SNP.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-nicola-sturgeon-now-resign-


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[Just Alf]

With regards to parties, masks etc then all politicians should be treated the same as Joe public whith regards to fines etc, otherwise its a case of one rule for them and another for us.

[Hiber-nation]

This thing in the barber shop has been great for NS. It’s making her opponents look ridiculous. Even the BBC news were mocking the complainants this morning. With elections on the way, that can only help the SNP.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-nicola-sturgeon-now-resign-


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Steerpike". Jesus wept.

[greenginger]

"Steerpike". Jesus wept.


Gossip columnist best ignored.

[Mcbizz1998]

Don't believe she just forgot. Would have been a briefing before she went in with her staff and umpteen camera men. She was going between people without a masks taking selfies.

If they make the rules, why didn't she say to all the staff to wear a mask. Why did they stay in a small room with 10 people without a mask. Surely ask them to mask or call the police if its against the law. More likely when the cameras were ready to roll mask went on

Yeah - she didn’t forget anything. She initially had a mask on, the photo’s show that. So she had it on and removed it, and was in a room full of people also not wearing them.

Just more lies like when she didn’t recall anything about Salmond and when she found out about the allegations. But don’t worry, her lies and hypocrisy don’t matter because Boris had a garden party.

[Berwickhibby]

As Sturgeon set this legislation then extended it, regardless how minor people see the infraction, she should be issued a fixed penalty notice, pay it and move on. Others have had to pay so why should she be treated any differently.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah - she didn’t forget anything. She initially had a mask on, the photoshop show that. So she had it on and removed it, and was in a room full of people also not wearing them.

Just more lies like when she didn’t recall anything about Salmond and when she found out about the allegations. But don’t worry, her lies and hypocrisy don’t matter because Boris had a garden party.

Is there a time line? Everyone else has said she went in without a mask first then put it on, which makes more sense.

[Ozyhibby]

As Sturgeon set this legislation then extended it, regardless how minor people see the infraction, she should be issued a fixed penalty notice, pay it and move on. Others have had to pay so why should she be treated any differently.

Have others been given fixed penalties for not wearing masks?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Have others been given fixed penalties for not wearing masks?


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On London transport 1552 people were fined in December for not wearing a mask

https://inews.co.uk/news/face-masks-rules-london-public-transport-tfl-rules-fines-not-wearing-coverings-1386912

Someone asked Scotland Police but they said they didn't have the data. There surely were quite a few if Scotland has similar population to London


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (SCOTLAND) ACT 2002
I refer to your recent request for information which has been handled in accordance with
the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.
For ease of reference, your request is replicated below together with the response.
How many fines for not wearing a face covering in a public space in Scotland (incl.
public transport) have been issued between:
1. 1
st Jan 2021 and 19th July 2021
2. 19th July and the most up to date figures available
3. Can you please clarify how many of these fines (in either section of dates) was
for a repeat offence, so was therefore more than £30.
In response to your questions, I regret to inform you that I am unable to provide you with the
information you have requested, as it would prove too costly to do so within the context of
the fee regulations.
As you may be aware the current cost threshold is £600 and I estimate that it would cost
well in excess of this amount to process your request.
As such, and in terms of Section 16(4) of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002
where Section 12(1) of the Act (Excessive Cost of Compliance) has been applied, this
represents a refusal notice for the information sought.
By way of explanation the most recent data provides that between 01 January 2021 and 17
June 2021, 14,442 Fixed Penalty Notices (FPN) were issued for Covid-19 related offences.
The Covid-19 related offences that may relate to mask wearing are recorded as:
ASB12 16(1) Failure to comply - Coronvirus Regulations
ASB13 16(2) Obstruct person - Coronvirus Regulations
ASB14 16(3) Contravene Direction - Coronavirus Regulations
There is no specific offence for non-mask wearing. Therefore, in order to determine the
information you require each penalty notice would need to be manually examined to
determine if the FPN was issued due to non-mask wearing or a repeat fine due to non-mask
wearing.
A conservative estimate would be that it would take approximately 3 minutes per record
and that this would equate to 722 hours of work.

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually must be more lenient up here as the record says just 1

[Stairway 2 7]

Nicola Sturgeon said this last summer

She said: “The regulations that will be published are likely to follow very closely the situation on public transport so in terms of enforcement that would involve for people not complying, potentially the imposition of a fixed penalty notice.

“It is not something I think is fair or reasonable to expect workers in shops to enforce so police would be able in certain circumstances to impose fixed penalty notices but the police will enforce these things very proportionately and sensitively.

I recognise very readily that this is not the easiest thing for the police to enforce either which is why all of us can help by doing this voluntarily even though it is going to be backed up by law.

[Ozyhibby]

Actually must be more lenient up here as the record says just 1

So a stern wag of the finger should suffice then?


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[stu in nottingham]

On London transport 1552 people were fined in December for not wearing a mask

https://inews.co.uk/news/face-masks-rules-london-public-transport-tfl-rules-fines-not-wearing-coverings-1386912

Someone asked Scotland Police but they said they didn't have the data. There surely were quite a few if Scotland has similar population to London


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (SCOTLAND) ACT 2002
I refer to your recent request for information which has been handled in accordance with
the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.
For ease of reference, your request is replicated below together with the response.
How many fines for not wearing a face covering in a public space in Scotland (incl.
public transport) have been issued between:
1. 1
st Jan 2021 and 19th July 2021
2. 19th July and the most up to date figures available
3. Can you please clarify how many of these fines (in either section of dates) was
for a repeat offence, so was therefore more than £30.
In response to your questions, I regret to inform you that I am unable to provide you with the
information you have requested, as it would prove too costly to do so within the context of
the fee regulations.
As you may be aware the current cost threshold is £600 and I estimate that it would cost
well in excess of this amount to process your request.
As such, and in terms of Section 16(4) of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002
where Section 12(1) of the Act (Excessive Cost of Compliance) has been applied, this
represents a refusal notice for the information sought.
By way of explanation the most recent data provides that between 01 January 2021 and 17
June 2021, 14,442 Fixed Penalty Notices (FPN) were issued for Covid-19 related offences.
The Covid-19 related offences that may relate to mask wearing are recorded as:
ASB12 16(1) Failure to comply - Coronvirus Regulations
ASB13 16(2) Obstruct person - Coronvirus Regulations
ASB14 16(3) Contravene Direction - Coronavirus Regulations
There is no specific offence for non-mask wearing. Therefore, in order to determine the
information you require each penalty notice would need to be manually examined to
determine if the FPN was issued due to non-mask wearing or a repeat fine due to non-mask
wearing.
A conservative estimate would be that it would take approximately 3 minutes per record
and that this would equate to 722 hours of work.

As the report you mention, those figures are specifically for Transport in London. I'm not saying it hasn't happened but personally, I haven't heard of one person being fined here for not wearing a mask otherwise, not even on transport systems. I have seen local reports of students arranging parties being fined £10,000 though. Perhaps putting Johnson's swingeing £50 fine into perspective some might say.

[Stairway 2 7]

So a stern wag of the finger should suffice then?


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It's whether the leaders should have a higher standard. I'd bet no one got done for having a cake in their office, but I'm glad he got a fine. Abba parties ect are different if it's true he was at them, as that is taking the p.

If its just the cake fine, that and Sturgeons mask will all blow over in a few weeks

[Berwickhibby]

Actually must be more lenient up here as the record says just 1

This report seems to suggest a lot more than 1 https://www.law.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-09/FPN%20Data%20Report%203.pdf

[Lendo]

Has Douglas Ross demanded her resignation yet?

[Jack]

Nicola Sturgeon said this last summer

She said: “The regulations that will be published are likely to follow very closely the situation on public transport so in terms of enforcement that would involve for people not complying, potentially the imposition of a fixed penalty notice.

“It is not something I think is fair or reasonable to expect workers in shops to enforce so police would be able in certain circumstances to impose fixed penalty notices but the police will enforce these things very proportionately and sensitively.

I recognise very readily that this is not the easiest thing for the police to enforce either which is why all of us can help by doing this voluntarily even though it is going to be backed up by law.

So even if there was a police presence the likely scenario would be ...

Ms Sturgeon you are not wearing your mask.

Oops sorry, NS puts on mask.

No further action necessary.

[ronaldo7]

The twittersphere is awash with politicians without masks on indoors. Some in classrooms. Leave this up to the police to decide, just like the others. If she's fined then so be it.

[ronaldo7]

And there we have it. The police have spoken to her and no further action to be taken.

[ronaldo7]

It seems someone has reported Douglas Ross and Anas Sarwar for similar breaches in the last few days.

Welcome to the hornets nest.

[Berwickhibby]

It seems someone has reported Douglas Ross and Anas Sarwar for similar breaches in the last few days.

Welcome to the hornets nest.

If they were not wearing masks….issue them with a fixed penalty notice

[stu in nottingham]

My particular favourite was when he was 'asked three times' to wear a mask in a hospital.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-told-three-times-22173717


Close runner-up is him going maskless when sitting with the 95 year-old David Attenborough at Cop2.

https://news.sky.com/story/cop26-boris-johnson-faces-backlash-for-failing-to-wear-mask-while-sitting-next-to-sir-david-attenborough-12458494


Then there's the train.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-mask-train-hospital-b1962180.html


We mustn't forget the theatre.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/24/boris-johnson-accused-of-flouting-request-to-wear-mask-at-theatre


Or meeting one of his troops. Had to self-isolate after this one.

https://www.chad.co.uk/health/coronavirus/boris-johnson-forced-to-self-isolate-after-meeting-ashfield-mp-lee-anderson-without-mask-3036951

25798

[weecounty hibby]

If they were not wearing masks….issue them with a fixed penalty notice

But it's utter ****ing nonsense and a waste of polis time. For persistent offenders or those who cause a scene when asked to put a mask on then fair enough. But this was 100% mischief making and so is the reports of Sarwar and Ross.

[Northernhibee]

Absolutely ****ing pathetic.

If people can’t see the difference between what on the face of things would be forgetting to put a face mask on whilst campaigning and having several office parties in the height of lockdown, lying to parliament about it and still trying to come up with **** excuses then there’s no hope for them.

I say that as someone who’s not a big fan of the SNP.

[ronaldo7]

If they were not wearing masks….issue them with a fixed penalty notice

Thank goodness you're no longer on the beat. Whatever happened to a word in the ear. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

Absolutely ****ing pathetic.

If people can’t see the difference between what on the face of things would be forgetting to put a face mask on whilst campaigning and having several office parties in the height of lockdown, lying to parliament about it and still trying to come up with **** excuses then there’s no hope for them.

I say that as someone who’s not a big fan of the SNP.

It’s great for the SNP that their opponents are making themselves look like petty idiots.


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[Berwickhibby]

Thank goodness you're no longer on the beat. Whatever happened to a word in the ear. 😂

Power of discretion removed years ago ….

[ronaldo7]

Power of discretion removed years ago ….

Ah, policing by questionnaire, at least in England anyway. 😂

[Bristolhibby]

If they were not wearing masks….issue them with a fixed penalty notice

There is discretion though, I’ve been caught speeding, and was very humble and I got a telling off to slow down and was on my way.

Similarly I’ve been caught by a GATSO, no discretion, 3 points and £60 fine.

In this instance discretion is correct, Alexander Johnson’s multiple parties, there’s a theme, he has to be fined. And multiple times.

J

[grunt]

Don't believe she forgot a mask. She would have talked before walking in with her large team. She takes a selfie with people without a mask and shakes his hair. As per the masks are for the cameras. Last week was the excuse, the Queen might have asked her to not wear one, talk about straw clutching.

If she doesn't take a fine it's a piss take to everyone who got one.

There's only whataboutary from one side, almost unanimously everyone said boris should walk. His was worse but unrelated. The rulers need to stick to the rules too:faf::faf::faf::faf:

[James310]

https://twitter.com/BBCandrewkerr/status/1517253075823742978?t=wMjqqd8RsNwV8oO5os7DHw&s=19

How can paper work for something so fundamental be missing? £240M contract and no emails, no minutes etc. nothing at all. It can't "be located" so it must have existed but seems to have disappeared. All very odd that any kind of documents cannot be found.

[Radium]

Power of discretion removed years ago ….

https://www.law.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-09/FPN%20Data%20Report%203.pdf

One of a number of reports around the enforcement in Scotland and the Police use of the 4Es. Not strictly relevant to the thread but good context.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.law.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-09/FPN%20Data%20Report%203.pdf

One of a number of reports around the enforcement in Scotland and the Police use of the 4Es. Not strictly relevant to the thread but good context.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bit of a read, however my point was, in England and Wales, around 2005/6 after many complaints about favouritism the power of discretion was removed by senior officers, this all tied in with complaints about masons etc not being prosecuted and people of colour were, for similar offences. Police stopped deciding on who got charged it was passed to the CPS for them to make decisions.

[LewysGot2]

https://twitter.com/BBCandrewkerr/status/1517253075823742978?t=wMjqqd8RsNwV8oO5os7DHw&s=19

How can paper work for something so fundamental be missing? £240M contract and no emails, no minutes etc. nothing at all. It can't "be located" so it must have existed but seems to have disappeared. All very odd that any kind of documents cannot be found.

It is concerning/important and not the first time either that records and minutes have not been traceable. Derek McKay looks likely to be questioned over what happened. He's already suggested Keith Brown, Swinney and Sturgeon were all ahead of him in approving this contract.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/BBCandrewkerr/status/1517253075823742978?t=wMjqqd8RsNwV8oO5os7DHw&s=19

How can paper work for something so fundamental be missing? £240M contract and no emails, no minutes etc. nothing at all. It can't "be located" so it must have existed but seems to have disappeared. All very odd that any kind of documents cannot be found.

Sounds as if there may simply have been no paperwork in the first place. Maybe easier to claim it's 'gone missing' than admit no records exist.

McConnell is calling for the police to get involved:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/call-in-the-police-says-lord-mcconnell-as-row-over-scottish-ferry-contract-worsens-fvt0w0bqp

[James310]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1519090353890070532?t=8z7BzQkYu_dqPztBVSgf2w&s=19

Legal advice on IndyRef2 to be published in June after a 13 month battle to release it under FOI laws. Scottish Government ministers found to have breached the FOI legislation.

[greenginger]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1519090353890070532?t=8z7BzQkYu_dqPztBVSgf2w&s=19

Legal advice on IndyRef2 to be published in June after a 13 month battle to release it under FOI laws. Scottish Government ministers found to have breached the FOI legislation.

Hope it doesn’t get lost or misplaced like the ferry contract documents.

[McD]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1519090353890070532?t=8z7BzQkYu_dqPztBVSgf2w&s=19

Legal advice on IndyRef2 to be published in June after a 13 month battle to release it under FOI laws. Scottish Government ministers found to have breached the FOI legislation.


why does it have to wait until June?

[Moulin Yarns]

why does it have to wait until June?

They have been given until June as a deadline.

[Ozyhibby]

I would imagine the legal advice will say ‘it depends’. That’s how they make their money.


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[James310]

I would imagine the legal advice will say ‘it depends’. That’s how they make their money.


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It's legal advice from the Lord Advocate I suspect, rather than a commerical legal firm. It will be related to does Holyrood have the legal competency to hold a legally binding referendum without a S30 order. I suspect the answer is no, hence the desire to not publish.

[Glory Lurker]

I'm glad this is coming out.

It might say "crack on" or "not allowed". Latter isn't end of the world. Scottish government having a mandate to pursue it, but getting told "no" by the UK government is a potential vote winner.

If it's somewhere on the fence that would be annoying but it wouldn't mean that Scottish Government was reckless should it go ahead.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm glad this is coming out.

It might say "crack on" or "not allowed". Latter isn't end of the world. Scottish government having a mandate to pursue it, but getting told "no" by the UK government is a potential vote winner.

If it's somewhere on the fence that would be annoying but it wouldn't mean that Scottish Government was reckless should it go ahead.

It wouldn't be legally binding. If the SG can hold a ref it'll be advisory like brexit and they'll assume that the UKG can't ignore "the will of the people". Unionists can counter that by boycotting and then as long as the turnout is below 50%, which you'd expect, they will think they're golden.

Whatever happens next, this has a long way to run I suspect. Constitutional paralysis, gotta love it. :rolleyes:

[McD]

They have been given until June as a deadline.


thank you :aok:

[Glory Lurker]

It wouldn't be legally binding. If the SG can hold a ref it'll be advisory like brexit and they'll assume that the UKG can't ignore "the will of the people". Unionists can counter that by boycotting and then as long as the turnout is below 50%, which you'd expect, they will think they're golden.

Whatever happens next, this has a long way to run I suspect. Constitutional paralysis, gotta love it. :rolleyes:

Let's not discount it being within competence quite yet, but a "not allowed" would be my second preference.

[James310]

Let's not discount it being within competence quite yet, but a "not allowed" would be my second preference.

The Scotland Act is fairly clear, matters of the constitution are reserved.

An advisory referendum would be a mistake in my humble opinion (if you are on the Yes side) as it would likely be boycotted by potentially half the country and Yes wins with 99% of the vote on a turnout of say 40%. Can't say with a serious face that's the will of the Scottish people. Also would all the councils take part, would the electoral commission endorse it etc. Minefield.

[lapsedhibee]

The Scotland Act is fairly clear, matters of the constitution are reserved.

An advisory referendum would be a mistake in my humble opinion (if you are on the Yes side) as it would likely be boycotted by potentially half the country and Yes wins with 99% of the vote on a turnout of say 40%. Can't say with a serious face that's the will of the Scottish people. Also would all the councils take part, would the electoral commission endorse it etc. Minefield.

Since when does not turning up to vote carry the same weight as voting? :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

Since when does not turning up to vote carry the same weight as voting? :confused:

It's unfair, but it's a tactic that works the world over. People always ignore a vote that a large % have disputed and abstained

[James310]

Since when does not turning up to vote carry the same weight as voting? :confused:

I just don't see how on a turnout of half or less than the last referendum any result can be taken as a serious indication of the will of the people of Scotland, even more so if Yes wins with 90%+ of the vote.

But if that's the road the SNP want to go down then so be it. Just don't see it happening as Nicola Sturgeon has said in the past she wants a repeat of the process of the 2014 referendum.

[Glory Lurker]

The Scotland Act is fairly clear, matters of the constitution are reserved.



I read that there is some academic debate about whether the Scotland Act is the be all and end all on the point, but let's assume the advice is a clear "incompetent". The Scottish Government has a mandate to pursue a referendum but the UK Government wants to discount it. That'll just help build pro-referendum/ independence support.

[CropleyWasGod]

I just don't see how on a turnout of half or less than the last referendum any result can be taken as a serious indication of the will of the people of Scotland, even more so if Yes wins with 90%+ of the vote.

But if that's the road the SNP want to go down then so be it. Just don't see it happening as Nicola Sturgeon has said in the past she wants a repeat of the process of the 2014 referendum.

The last Council elections in Scotland had a turnout of 32%. Is that a serious indication of the will of the people?

[James310]

The last Council elections in Scotland had a turnout of 32%. Is that a serious indication of the will of the people?

A bit different to the question should Scotland break away from UK though, as I say if that's the road the SNP want to go down and see what happens then they should crack on.

[Stairway 2 7]

The last Council elections in Scotland had a turnout of 32%. Is that a serious indication of the will of the people?

Hardly comparable to the independence of your nation, particularly after high turn out in last referendum. Just shows most aren't arsed about council elections

[James310]

I read that there is some academic debate about whether the Scotland Act is the be all and end all on the point, but let's assume the advice is a clear "incompetent". The Scottish Government has a mandate to pursue a referendum but the UK Government wants to discount it. That'll just help build pro-referendum/ independence support.

Not sure it will, hasn't that been the case the last 5 years or so? Remember Sturgeon telling us she has a mandate after various other elections and we would have a referendum in 2018 or 2019 and so on. Nothing happened and support has pretty much fallen back to mid 40s again. Who knows though, maybe that's the SNP game plan, I would suggest its not a great plan to rely on though, but who knows what their strategy is.

[JeMeSouviens]

I read that there is some academic debate about whether the Scotland Act is the be all and end all on the point, but let's assume the advice is a clear "incompetent". The Scottish Government has a mandate to pursue a referendum but the UK Government wants to discount it. That'll just help build pro-referendum/ independence support.

There is no doubt the SG can't enact a binding referendum without another section 30 order. There is some doubt about whether an advisory ref would be ok (as in not struck down by the Supreme Court under the current law). Enacting change to the constitution is reserved, testing the opinion of the population about constitutional matters might not be.

A non-agreed ref wouldn't bring indy on its own anway, imo, because it wouldn't be recognised by the EU as a legit process. Could be another useful stepping stone along the way though.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/279100124_10160493932376844_6773280110686714028_n. jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=e4nvxgGOCzUAX9vwATP&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8YxwrYo1ZcebcFRdht5W4yTt_HpHxOCyozsUGhwPuL rQ&oe=626F8E4A


thanks Prof

[lapsedhibee]

The last Council elections in Scotland had a turnout of 32%. Is that a serious indication of the will of the people?

68% of people think that local councils shouldn't exist and decisions should be made in Westminster :dunno: