SNP are lying b******s as well !

[grunt]

Bang to rights.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwFIbtwWIAEK49u?format=jpg&name=medium

[Kato]

Bang to rights.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwFIbtwWIAEK49u?format=jpg&name=mediumThat's photoshopped. It would've said "welcome hame".

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[grunt]

That's photoshopped. It would've said "welcome hame".
Sherlock Kato.

[Kato]

Sherlock Kato.Lemonentry

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[marinello59]

The stand backing down shows to me that Cherry KC knows the law better than randoms. Can see female sport events that allow only biological females being disrupted now. There is only one opinion allowed for some

I’m delighted she forced The Stand in to backing down. The attempt to silence people we disagree with is just plain wrong.

[grunt]

I’m delighted she forced The Stand in to backing down. The attempt to silence people we disagree with is just plain wrong.
Were they attempting to "silence" her? Or did they just not want her appearing at their own club? Are you suggesting that privately owned clubs should have no say over who appears on their stages?

[Stairway 2 7]

Were they attempting to "silence" her? Or did they just not want her appearing at their own club? Are you suggesting that privately owned clubs should have no say over who appears on their stages?

Yes it's literally illegal hence the sheepish back peddle. What if a club didn't want black people, lesbians, feminists or Christians.

[grunt]

Yes it's literally illegal hence the sheepish back peddle. What if a club didn't want black people, lesbians, feminists or Christians.
When you put it like that it makes perfect sense.

[marinello59]

Were they attempting to "silence" her? Or did they just not want her appearing at their own club? Are you suggesting that privately owned clubs should have no say over who appears on their stages?

What I suggest is neither here nor there. Cherry argued that she had been unlawfully discriminated against and the Stand’s legal advisers agree. They probably know a wee bit more about these things than me.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sturgeon made children and young people the central plank of what her givernment wanted to achieve. We were to judge her on that.

The interview below is with Scotland's Children and Young People's Commissioner.. His job is set out in law with its primary focus to protect and promote the rights of children and young people.

Interviewer asks about Sturgeon's commitments, "...What is your verdict on that, are you saying she failed?"

Commissioner: "Absolutely"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65588466

As we all know, this is just one small part of it. Her government's record on children and young people, on health and social care, on the things that fundamentally matter, will haunt her legacy for far longer than motorhomes and Amazon wish lists.

[Mibbes Aye]

Interesting leak. Police getting nervous and trying to cover themselves?


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It wasn't a leak. It was a reply by a SNP minister to a parliamentary question raised by.........an SNP MSP :greengrin

[grunt]

Sturgeon made children and young people the central plank of what her givernment wanted to achieve. We were to judge her on that.

The interview below is with Scotland's Children and Young People's Commissioner.. His job is set out in law with its primary focus to protect and promote the rights of children and young people.

Interviewer asks about Sturgeon's commitments, "...What is your verdict on that, are you saying she failed?"

Commissioner: "Absolutely"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65588466

As we all know, this is just one small part of it. Her government's record on children and young people, on health and social care, on the things that fundamentally matter, will haunt her legacy for far longer than motorhomes and Amazon wish lists.

Politics in this country is in the gutter.


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[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon made children and young people the central plank of what her givernment wanted to achieve. We were to judge her on that.

The interview below is with Scotland's Children and Young People's Commissioner.. His job is set out in law with its primary focus to protect and promote the rights of children and young people.

Interviewer asks about Sturgeon's commitments, "...What is your verdict on that, are you saying she failed?"

Commissioner: "Absolutely"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65588466

As we all know, this is just one small part of it. Her government's record on children and young people, on health and social care, on the things that fundamentally matter, will haunt her legacy for far longer than motorhomes and Amazon wish lists.

I’d say Scotland is the best place in the UK for children.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I’d say Scotland is the best place in the UK for children.


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Help is available. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/prescriptions-life/201803/how-stop-comparing-yourself-others)

Here for you hon :greengrin

[connerg]

If there was no SNP in charge at Holyrood, Labour would be in control, taking their instruction's from down south of course.
Why do so many so called Scot's not want to have their own voice?

[grunt]

The interview below is with Scotland's Children and Young People's Commissioner.. His job is set out in law with its primary focus to protect and promote the rights of children and young people.

Interviewer asks about Sturgeon's commitments, "...What is your verdict on that, are you saying she failed?"

Commissioner: "Absolutely"
Seems to have changed his view somewhat since last November. Regarding the Scottish Child Payment?

"It's hugely positive ... people have described it as a lifeline."

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to have changed his view somewhat since last November. Regarding the Scottish Child Payment?

"It's hugely positive ... people have described it as a lifeline."

Got his 5 mins on the tele though. Shame he looked foolish in doing so.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1658094484767268868?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

The retiring children’s commissioner just 8 weeks ago.[emoji102]


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[grunt]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1658094484767268868?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

The retiring children’s commissioner just 8 weeks ago.[emoji102]

"We've achieved more than any of us thought that we could."

"I'm really proud of what we've achieved over the past 6 years."

[Ozyhibby]

"We've achieved more than any of us thought that we could."

"I'm really proud of what we've achieved over the past 6 years."

Might have had a wee nod like Sue Gray?[emoji6]


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1658094484767268868?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

The retiring children’s commissioner just 8 weeks ago.[emoji102]


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"We've achieved more than any of us thought that we could."

"I'm really proud of what we've achieved over the past 6 years."

Oh dear, sorry guys, I can see you have been busy scouring the internet for this but.....

You do realise he is talking about what he and his team did, don’t you? Do you actually think he is talking about what Scottish Government did? :greengrin

He’a talking about his team’s involvement in the Independent Care Review and the likes, he even say so during your clip.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh dear, sorry guys, I can see you have been busy scouring the internet for this but.....

You do realise he is talking about what he and his team did, don’t you? Do you actually think he is talking about what Scottish Government did? :greengrin

He’a talking about his team’s involvement in the Independent Care Review and the likes, he even say so during your clip.

He achieved all this under a Labour Scottish govt? Wow. Impressive.


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[Mibbes Aye]

He achieved all this under a Labour Scottish govt? Wow. Impressive.


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What are you on about Ozy?

He said his team had done a lot of good, wished they had achieved more. He also said that Sturgeon/the SNP had absolutely failed on their part.

Anyway, my rationale for mentioning him was about Sturgeon’s legacy. Obviously those high-powered jobs at the UN and the like we were hearing about on here won’t be happening just quite yet.

Will her legacy be public services - that’s what she said she wanted, but that’s where so little has been achieved, just U-turn upon U-turn. Or will her legacy be constitutional - that’s maybe what she actually wanted, but that’s where ultimately she couldn’t move the dial.

As much as I reject her ideology and have been dismayed at her approach to delivering public services, she did give a significant part of her life to working in public service. I respect that and I genuinely hope the first thing she is remembered for isn’t murky or shady financials that few folk will ever believe she knew nothing about.

[grunt]

He said his team had done a lot of good, wished they had achieved more. He also said that Sturgeon/the SNP had absolutely failed on their part.
Only you could take the three comments made by Adamson over the last six months and see them as being consistent. A career in politics surely beckons.

[J-C]

Only you could take the three comments made by Adamson over the last six months and see them as being consistent. A career in politics surely beckons.


Since this was made PM only, he's about the last one attempting to put the boot into all things SNP and Scottish Gov, be a bit lonely now since all the other Labour/Tory cheer leaders are not allowed on here any more.

[WhileTheChief..]

You only want SNP supporters to discuss the SNP on here from now on?

Will probably turn into a pretty boring thread. You'd be better off just going to an SNP forum in that case no?

I thought the whole idea of these threads was to read the views from posters with different points of views. Seems totally pointless otherwise.

[grunt]

I thought the whole idea of these threads was to read the views from posters with different points of views. Seems totally pointless otherwise.
That's actually a very good idea. What are your views on Adamson's recent remarks about the lack of progress by the SG on addressing child poverty?

[Ozyhibby]

That's actually a very good idea. What are your views on Adamson's recent remarks about the lack of progress by the SG on addressing child poverty?

Does Scotland have the lowest child poverty in the UK?


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[Jack]

​
Since this was made PM only, he's about the last one attempting to put the boot into all things SNP and Scottish Gov, be a bit lonely now since all the other Labour/Tory cheer leaders are not allowed on here any more.

Maybe Project Fear are too tight to pay the subscription 😆

26734

[marinello59]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-finances-call-for-inquiry-into-crown-office-delay-of-nicola-sturgeon-home-police-search-warrant

Anybody know if a two week delay is normal? I have no idea.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-finances-call-for-inquiry-into-crown-office-delay-of-nicola-sturgeon-home-police-search-warrant

Anybody know if a two week delay is normal? I have no idea.

Looks like just another attempt to throw mud and see what sticks. Pathetic really but it might be working.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Looks like just another attempt to throw mud and see what sticks. Pathetic really but it might be working.


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Quite possibly.

I think Kenny MacAskill makes a better point about separating the role of Lord Advocate as an adviser to the government, from that of the Lord Advocate as head of COPFS, that's never sat too comfortably. Similarly in England, where Braverman made a mockery of the attorney-general post, although highlighting her pretty abject legal expertise in the process.

[Ozyhibby]

Quite possibly.

I think Kenny MacAskill makes a better point about separating the role of Lord Advocate as an adviser to the government, from that of the Lord Advocate as head of COPFS, that's never sat too comfortably. Similarly in England, where Braverman made a mockery of the attorney-general post, although highlighting her pretty abject legal expertise in the process.

Didn’t he used to be Justice Secretary?


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[marinello59]

Looks like just another attempt to throw mud and see what sticks. Pathetic really but it might be working.


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Possibly. The Indy movement really is a nest of vipers these days.

[grunt]

Anybody know if a two week delay is normal? I have no idea.

From the BBC "story":


BBC Scotland understands that a draft search warrant was submitted by the police which the fiscal then discussed with officers before its contents were finalised.

The warrant, which is reported to have included a long list of items the police wanted to seize, was then signed by a sheriff on the same day it was finished.

[Mibbes Aye]

Didn’t he used to be Justice Secretary?


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I think he was, under Salmond? Maybe got moved by Sturgeon. He clearly didn't do anything about it at the time if so.

Actually he was at Justice, at some point because he was involved with the whole Libyan release stuff. That was an international cause de celebre :greengrin - Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Conti, Mikey Forrester, Russian sailors et al

[Ozyhibby]

I think he was, under Salmond? Maybe got moved by Sturgeon. He clearly didn't do anything about it at the time if so.

Actually he was at Justice, at some point because he was involved with the whole Libyan release stuff. That was an international cause de celebre :greengrin - Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Conti, Mikey Forrester, Russian sailors et al

Common among politicians to have amazing ideas once they leave a role. Legalising drugs is the usual. Hard to find an ex justice minister, ex chief constable, ex judge etc who doesn’t now think we should legalise drugs. In the too hard basket when they were in a position to do something though.


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[Kato]

Would the warrant mention the items Police Scotland were to search for?

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[grunt]

Would the warrant mention the items Police Scotland were to search for?
See my post above. Yes.

[Ozyhibby]

Would the warrant mention the items Police Scotland were to search for?

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They def should spread that in the media slowly over a number of weeks no matter how boring it sounds.


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[Mibbes Aye]

They def should spread that in the media slowly over a number of weeks no matter how boring it sounds.


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Cool. It could be like a cross between The Generation Game and Argos bingo :greengrin

GHD straighteners, got those...Nespresso machine, yup....His and hers bath towels, ya beezer....just need the Clairol foot spa and the Binatone cordless with answering machine for 'House'!!!!!!!

[Hibbyradge]

Cool. It could be like a cross between The Generation Game and Argos bingo :greengrin

GHD straighteners, got those...Nespresso machine, yup....His and hers bath towels, ya beezer....just need the Clairol foot spa and the Binatone cordless with answering machine for 'House'!!!!!!!

Pah. Typical Labour supporter.

Not a cuddly toy in sight!

[grunt]

Dawn Butler is told that she can't raise Rees-Mogg's explicit confession that Voter ID was designed to be Tory gerrymandering to be discussed in the chamber, but later in the same session Mhairi Black is told off by the same deputy speaker for describing the Tories as being "pished" at parties in Number 10. I wonder if the House of Commons has got its priorities right?

[grunt]

SNP motion to discuss the cost of living crisis in Westminster gets the full attention of everyone in the House of Commons

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwQbladaIAQ_QhJ?format=jpg&name=medium

[Mibbes Aye]

SNP motion to discuss the cost of living crisis in Westminster gets the full attention of everyone in the House of Commons

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwQbladaIAQ_QhJ?format=jpg&name=medium

It looks like they have got less than a fifth of their own MPs there!

[Mibbes Aye]

Pah. Typical Labour supporter.

Not a cuddly toy in sight!

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[Kato]

Cool. It could be like a cross between The Generation Game and Argos bingo :greengrin

GHD straighteners, got those...Nespresso machine, yup....His and hers bath towels, ya beezer....just need the Clairol foot spa and the Binatone cordless with answering machine for 'House'!!!!!!!That was what I was thinking, a mixture of the big prize from Bullseye and the crap bits of the generation game. Didn't wee (nicky) do well.

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[Mibbes Aye]

That was what I was thinking, a mixture of the big prize from Bullseye and the crap bits of the generation game. Didn't wee (nicky) do well.

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Angus MacNeil had offered to host but the "nothing in this game for two in a bed" line felt a bit inappropriate.

I would pay good money to see Family Fortunes though - "...And here we have the Murrells, David, we asked 100 people what kind of thing would you buy from Amazon"?

:greengrin

[Kato]

Angus MacNeil had offered to host but the "nothing in this game for two in a bed" line felt a bit inappropriate.

I would pay good money to see Family Fortunes though - "...And here we have the Murrells, David, we asked 100 people what kind of thing would you buy from Amazon"?

:greengrinhttps://youtu.be/7XMW6Z_Oq38

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

SNP motion to discuss the cost of living crisis in Westminster gets the full attention of everyone in the House of Commons

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwQbladaIAQ_QhJ?format=jpg&name=medium

Looks like their own MP's have set the tone and others have followed suit.

[grunt]

Looks like their own MP's have set the tone and others have followed suit.Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.

Looks like the SNP have about 9 MPs at Westminster?

[CropleyWasGod]

Looks like the SNP have about 9 MPs at Westminster?

Bloody disgraceful from all parties IMO.

[grunt]

Looks like the SNP have about 9 MPs at Westminster?
8 more than the Tories and Labour.

[CropleyWasGod]

That was what I was thinking, a mixture of the big prize from Bullseye and the crap bits of the generation game. Didn't wee (nicky) do well.

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A caravan? :confused:

[Kato]

A caravan? :confused:Yes, with an inbuilt car at the front.



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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

8 more than the Tories and Labour.

A full attendance by all SNP candidates in response to the miserable showing from the other parties would have been PR pure gold though?

[Jack]

To be fair I think most debates in the HoC have similar attendance rates, some folk just turn up for the vote - if there is one. I think its rare to have everyone in.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/holyrood-sources/id1673972192?i=1000613366154

Another enjoyable Holyrood Sources.

Good performance again from Yousaf at FMQ’s although it’s clear he’s not up against much. His performance in the rest of his job is still sadly lacking.


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[Keith_M]

Do we have any update on Ms Surgeon's driving lessons?


There's so many possible headlines to be made from that, I can't help feel that the MSM are missing a trick.

[degenerated]

Sources within the police....:hmmm:

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1658777390829428738?t=tihhI75sB0Uo1O3obgi8Mg&s=19

[wookie70]

A caravan? :confused: A motorhome

[Keith_M]

Any news of actual criminal charges?

[Hibrandenburg]

Any news of actual criminal charges?

They're now looking into old CCTV and it looks like they've finally got Sturgeon bang to rights caught smoking in a one way street.

[Mibbes Aye]

They're now looking into old CCTV and it looks like they've finally got Sturgeon bang to rights caught smoking in a one way street.

I love a good euphemism as much as the next man but this is a new one for me. The mind boggles.

[Hibrandenburg]

I love a good euphemism as much as the next man but this is a new one for me. The mind boggles.

It's a quote from the parody cop show "Sledge Hammer".

[grunt]

BBC Scotland sends journalist to Turkey to report on progress of the ferries being built there. Good use of licence payers money.

https://twitter.com/bbciainmac/status/1661602257132044288?s=61&t=-BLvE2XlsyxZYcSjKNkxtg

[Mibbes Aye]

BBC Scotland sends journalist to Turkey to report on progress of the ferries being built there. Good use of licence payers money.

https://twitter.com/bbciainmac/status/1661602257132044288?s=61&t=-BLvE2XlsyxZYcSjKNkxtg

It wouldn't be a story if it hadn't been for spectacular mismanagement and dodgy procurement. And the blame for that sits squarely with SNP ministers.

The fact that even this far down the road, it would be cheaper to scrap the second ferry and build a new one from scratch - that's farcical. It is breathtakingly farcical.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

Could this be the start of cross border cooperation between Westminster and holyrood??

[Jones28]

It wouldn't be a story if it hadn't been for spectacular mismanagement and dodgy procurement. And the blame for that sits squarely with SNP ministers.

The fact that even this far down the road, it would be cheaper to scrap the second ferry and build a new one from scratch - that's farcical. It is breathtakingly farcical.

How more acknowledgement do we need to give the fact that the ferries are a complete **** up?


Just out of interest, because I don't think you're going to find a single SNP supporter suggesting that it was at all well managed.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

Could this be the start of cross border cooperation between Westminster and holyrood??

Informal pact between the Conservatives and the SNP?

[Mibbes Aye]

How more acknowledgement do we need to give the fact that the ferries are a complete **** up?


Just out of interest, because I don't think you're going to find a single SNP supporter suggesting that it was at all well managed.

I didn’t bring ferries up, I was replying to a poster who did.

[Ozyhibby]

Informal pact between the Conservatives and the SNP?

Or just the UK govt imposing its will on the SG again? Depending on your outlook I guess you could see that as working together.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Or just the UK govt imposing its will on the SG again? Depending on your outlook I guess you could see that as working together.


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No. It’s definitely a scheme worked up by two jaded, tired administrations who have more that unites them than divides them :na na:

Only joking! The whole thing sounds like it is probably just a good intention let down by bad communication or planning, potentially on both sides. Simple and non-partisan.

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

Could this be the start of cross border cooperation between Westminster and holyrood??


Informal pact between the Conservatives and the SNP?It seems that the Scottish Govt learned of this "co-operation" by reading about it on the BBC.

[marinello59]

How more acknowledgement do we need to give the fact that the ferries are a complete **** up?


Just out of interest, because I don't think you're going to find a single SNP supporter suggesting that it was at all well managed.

I keep saying this but too few actually give a thought to how badly this affects the lives of our islanders. It’s easier to focus on protecting your favoured politicians and sidelining any discussion when you live in the central belt. This ongoing shambles should be dragged up at every opportunity and shoved in the faces of the incompetent politicians responsible. Maybe somebody will finally put their hands up but I doubt it. The same self serving denial of any blame as the mob at Westminster practice.
We have a family funeral this week. In the past it was easy enough to book a last minute ferry and travel over for a day to attend. Not anymore, some will be staying over for a week because they can’t get booked on suitable ferries, some simply won’t be able to go. The expensive alternative of flying isn't an option either, the failing ferry service means flights are fully booked virtually every day. The saddest part of all this? It’s now the norm.

[grunt]

I keep saying this but too few actually give a thought to how badly this affects the lives of our islanders. It’s easier to focus on protecting your favoured politicians and sidelining any discussion when you live in the central belt. This ongoing shambles should be dragged up at every opportunity and shoved in the faces of the incompetent politicians responsible. Maybe somebody will finally put their hands up but I doubt it.
You're quite right. It's tragic that Labour didn't do anything about the ferries when they were in power.

[Skol]

I thought I had missed the holy ground whilst it was closed down. I have had a look over some of the threads and realise I haven’t really missed it at all :-(

[grunt]

I thought I had missed the holy ground whilst it was closed down. I have had a look over some of the threads and realise I haven’t really missed it at all :-(
It was never closed down. Where were you?

[marinello59]

You're quite right. It's tragic that Labour didn't do anything about the ferries when they were in power.

That was sixteen years ago.:greengrin

The ferry service was OK back then, I know, I used it at least once a month. It was a younger fleet less prone to breakdown with no urgent pressure to order new vessels thanks to good forward planning. I don’t think Labour deserve any praise for that , CalMac were just getting the basics right. The food onboard wasn’t that great though. :greengrin

[Skol]

It was never closed down. Where were you?

I am not a private member and it was locked down for about three weeks

[Stairway 2 7]

It greatly improved, sad to hear its reopened. Labour thread stayed a bit of a chore but ho hum

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1663112191367852032?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This should be withdrawal of the whip. SNP needs to be above this sort of thing.


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[Jack]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1663112191367852032?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This should be withdrawal of the whip. SNP needs to be above this sort of thing.


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Technically I'm not sure.

It was obviously allowed within the rules before the Braverman story, otherwise it wouldn't have been paid, so on those grounds it's a bit unfair to call foul now, or even sending off!

That fines were ever allowed is a shocker. MPs are responsible for making laws. They shouldn't get a free pass when they break them.

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/scotnational/status/1663112191367852032?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This should be withdrawal of the whip. SNP needs to be above this sort of thing.


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That would be harsh to say the least.

[He's here!]

Lorna Slater to assess whether deposit return scheme can go ahead - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65758196)

You'd think Slater would just be glad she's been thrown a lifeline to get some sort of scheme off the ground after her own shambolic attempts failed dismally. It was daft not to accept in the first place that the most practical way to implement this was as part of a UK-wide initiative.

[Ozyhibby]

Lorna Slater to assess whether deposit return scheme can go ahead - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65758196)

You'd think Slater would just be glad she's been thrown a lifeline to get some sort of scheme off the ground after her own shambolic attempts failed dismally. It was daft not to accept in the first place that the most practical way to implement this was as part of a UK-wide initiative.

How did it fail?


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[marinello59]

How did it fail?


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Where do we start with that one? Slater is lucky she is still in position.
Didn’t all three of the leadership candidates have reservations about the scheme, some more than others. She oversaw long delays, ignored genuine concerns from business leaders as she ploughed on regardless and left asking for a trade exemption far too late. There are plenty within the SNP who saw the failings.
Letting herself be politically out manouvered by Alister Jack should be the prompt Yousaf needs to drop the Green coalition entirely. I’m not so sure he will.

[Ozyhibby]

Where do we start with that one? Slater is lucky she is still in position.
Didn’t all three of the leadership candidates have reservations about the scheme, some more than others. She oversaw long delays, ignored genuine concerns from business leaders as she ploughed on regardless and left asking for a trade exemption far too late. There are plenty within the SNP who saw the failings.
Letting herself be politically out manouvered by Alister Jack should be the prompt Yousaf needs to drop the Green coalition entirely. I’m not so sure he will.

She hasn’t been politically out manoeuvred by Jack though. He has just imposed the power of the UK govt over the Scottish govt. The scheme has been stopped dead by the UK govt. We’ll never know if it would have failed.


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[marinello59]

She hasn’t been politically out manoeuvred by Jack though. He has just imposed the power of the UK govt over the Scottish govt. The scheme has been stopped dead by the UK govt. We’ll never know if it would have failed.


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She has been.
Rather than just refusing the trade exemption he has offered an alternative UK wide scheme that many businesses and voters will see as a sensible solution.
I’m not comfortable with Westminster stepping in over any devolved matter but this will not result in any increased support for Independence at all. I don’t like it but Jack played his political cards right here. The grievance card ain’t gonna trump his hand at all.

[Moulin Yarns]

She has been.
Rather than just refusing the trade exemption he has offered an alternative UK wide scheme that many businesses and voters will see as a sensible solution.
I’m not comfortable with Westminster stepping in over any devolved matter but this will not result in any increased support for Independence at all. I don’t like it but Jack played his political cards right here. The grievance card ain’t gonna trump his hand at all.

I saw the UK government proposal as a decent compromise, until I realised that the Welsh government are bringing in exactly the same scheme as Scotland but a year later. Has the Welsh secretary told Wales they can't include glass??

[Hibrandenburg]

She hasn’t been politically out manoeuvred by Jack though. He has just imposed the power of the UK govt over the Scottish govt. The scheme has been stopped dead by the UK govt. We’ll never know if it would have failed.


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Of course it wouldn't have failed, there might have been a few adjustments needing ironed out after the launch but why shouldn't a scheme successfully implemented in other countries not work in Scotland? Is there another country in the world where around 50% of the population have zero belief in their own capabilities?

[Mibbes Aye]

Of course it wouldn't have failed, there might have been a few adjustments needing ironed out after the launch but why shouldn't a scheme successfully implemented in other countries not work in Scotland? Is there another country in the world where around 50% of the population have zero belief in their own capabilities?

Way to go with winning people over to your cause. Repeatedly telling them they are worthless, lacking in belief etc etc etc.

It's just gaslighting isn't it? "Vote for me because you are too stupid to know any better", wrapped in a saltire shroud.

You and others have been banging that drum about 'them' for ten years now, but the dial hasn't changed. Maybe 'they' aren't the stupid ones.......

[Hibrandenburg]

Way to go with winning people over to your cause. Repeatedly telling them they are worthless, lacking in belief etc etc etc.

It's just gaslighting isn't it? "Vote for me because you are too stupid to know any better", wrapped in a saltire shroud.

You and others have been banging that drum about 'them' for ten years now, but the dial hasn't changed. Maybe 'they' aren't the stupid ones.......

It doesn't surprise me that you see it that way, but as they say "if the cap fits......".

Do I actually think that a large part of the electorate are stupid? Well in short yes, we're at the edge of a climate disaster that will bring famine, disease and wars for resources and land but they continually keep voting against any meaningful change that might slow that down. So yes, I'm quite happy to state that there's a lot of stupid people out there who would seemingly put their children's futures on the line to preserve some kind of inherited nationalist identity.

[Stairway 2 7]

The scheme would have worked and will work I'm sure, I'm all for it. It's ridiculous to say it wasn't mismanaged to the point of shambles and delays, well before uk gov got involved.

Why did the SNP give it to the greens and that nitwit Slater. Should have let the adults do it and took their time and did it properly.

Separately the glass part of it needs a separate debate. I don't know why everything needs to be blanket with no nuance. Pubs recycle almost 100% of glass, so don't touch their system. We already recycle 76% of glass in the UK which is pretty good, not much behind many who have a drs, places with curbside is higher.

The top 3 glass recycling rates in Europe are from nations that don't have DRS. Playing it as an ecological disaster not having one is just playing politics. Humza tweeted twice not having one means 600 million glass bottles on our beaches. This is clearly stupid as 600 million is the total number of glass bottles used in Scotland, so the recycling rate would have to drop to zero

[Ozyhibby]

The scheme would have worked and will work I'm sure, I'm all for it. It's ridiculous to say it wasn't mismanaged to the point of shambles and delays, well before uk gov got involved.

Why did the SNP give it to the greens and that nitwit Slater. Should have let the adults do it and took their time and did it properly.

Separately the glass part of it needs a separate debate. I don't know why everything needs to be blanket with no nuance. Pubs recycle almost 100% of glass, so don't touch their system. We already recycle 76% of glass in the UK which is pretty good, not much behind many who have a drs, places with curbside is higher.

The top 3 glass recycling rates in Europe are from nations that don't have DRS. Playing it as an ecological disaster not having one is just playing politics. Humza tweeted twice not having one means 600 million glass bottles on our beaches. This is clearly stupid as 600 million is the total number of glass bottles used in Scotland, so the recycling rate would have to drop to zero

Glass or no glass is not the point now. It’s about devolution being withdrawn.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.conveniencestore.co.uk/your-business/glass-should-be-in-drs-for-all-uk-nations-say-scots/679100.article

8 in 10 Scots want glass included in the DRS.

This is something that Wales is allowed to do but not Scotland? Why is this?


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[Kato]

https://www.conveniencestore.co.uk/your-business/glass-should-be-in-drs-for-all-uk-nations-say-scots/679100.article

8 in 10 Scots want glass included in the DRS.

This is something that Wales is allowed to do but not Scotland? Why is this?


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Because the Scottish one is some kind of Marxist Wokerati genderless plot against British values?

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[Ozyhibby]

Because the Scottish one is some kind of Marxist Wokerati genderless plot against British values?

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I’m for Indy and it doesn’t hurt when Scotland is discriminated against like this but I’d also like the country to work. So frustrating.
My mate works for DTI (or whatever they call it these days) and has just spent the week in Belfast bugging up the advantages NI has to American businesses by being in the SM and CU. In the long run there is going to be economic costs to Scotland being treated differently from others.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It's not about devolution, it's about the law and competence. If Edinburgh Council said were going to increase the minimum wage of everyone working in Edinburgh, scot gov would say you know what powers you have and that isn't one of them. Andy wightman ex Green MSP is all for the policy and competence

@andywightman
·
Serious question. ScotGov has known for years that an internal market exemption was needed. Why then did it proceed (with substantial cost for businesses) without this exemption in place? Should Gov not have secured exemption first before third parties incurred these costs?

[Ozyhibby]

It's not about devolution, it's about the law and competence. If Edinburgh Council said were going to increase the minimum wage of everyone working in Edinburgh, scot gov would say you know what powers you have and that isn't one of them. Andy wightman ex Green MSP is all for the policy and competence

@andywightman
·
Serious question. ScotGov has known for years that an internal market exemption was needed. Why then did it proceed (with substantial cost for businesses) without this exemption in place? Should Gov not have secured exemption first before third parties incurred these costs?

But all good for Wales?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65763697?at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=08768AF8-FFAA-11ED-936F-F1443AE5AB7B&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews


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[Stairway 2 7]

But all good for Wales?


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I'd doubt it. There's is years away I'm sure both will be told the same thing

[Ozyhibby]

I'd doubt it. There's is years away I'm sure both will be told the same thing

So this is no longer a devolved matter?


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[Just Alf]

So this is no longer a devolved matter?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAccording to the bbc the other day Glass was originally included in the UK wide scheme hence why both Scotland and Wales included it in their schemes.
They also confirmed that the intention from day one was for the schemes UK wide to be integrated with each other. Dunno who the talking head they had on reporting on it tho.

[Stairway 2 7]

So this is no longer a devolved matter?


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Not all aspects of it legally, as Andy wightman says the scot Gov knew this so probably playing politics as with the other objections

[marinello59]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/ferry-services-on-island-routes-face-further-disruption?utm_source=app

Just when you think the ferry situation couldn’t get more farcical. What an utter embarrassment.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/ferry-services-on-island-routes-face-further-disruption?utm_source=app

Just when you think the ferry situation couldn’t get more farcical. What an utter embarrassment.

Ferries need serviced. How embarrassing. [emoji849]


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[marinello59]

Ferries need serviced. How embarrassing. [emoji849]


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Ferries are breaking down more often because the fleet is aging. An expensive charter vessel brought in to service one of the routes affected can’t use the departure pier so isn’t being deployed. People who made ferry bookings months ago that have been contacted days before departure to be told they are now on a standby list instead. Peoples lives are being severely disrupted, this is far from what used to be normal. It’s highly embarrassing.

[Ozyhibby]

Ferries are breaking down more often because the fleet is aging. An expensive charter vessel brought in to service one of the routes affected can’t use the departure pier so isn’t being deployed. People who made ferry bookings months ago that have been contacted days before departure to be told they are now on a standby list instead. Peoples lives are being severely disrupted, this is far from what used to be normal. It’s highly embarrassing.

I know, it’s tough. These two ferries are very late and should have been delivered. There is no doubt about it. Pointing out every single knock on effect doesn’t really help or enlighten the debate though. By the time the next election at Holyrood there will be 6 brand new boats in the water.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Ferries need serviced. How embarrassing. [emoji849]


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What is embarrassing is the way SNP suporters act as if it is no big deal, people are making too much fuss about it and all the "Yeah, but the ferries (rolly-eyes smiley)". I assume that this is because they cannot defend the indefensible, that's the best they have got. I don't mind them doing it though, because it shows how utterly out-of-touch they are with the real issues people face.

Mind you, when a country that has nearly a quarter of its children in poverty, scraps its Minister for Social Security so they can have a Minister for Independence, that also emonstrates how blind the Scottish Government is to reality.

Shona Robison was on the news the other day talking about her £1billion shortfall in the budget - taxpayers' money for public services. The cost of ferry failure equates to half of that. How embarrassing indeed.

[Ozyhibby]

What is embarrassing is the way SNP suporters act as if it is no big deal, people are making too much fuss about it and all the "Yeah, but the ferries (rolly-eyes smiley)". I assume that this is because they cannot defend the indefensible, that's the best they have got. I do't mind them doing it though, because it shows how utterly out-of-touch they are with the real issues people face.

Mind you, when a country that has nearly a quarter of its children in poverty, scraps its Minister for Social Security so they can have a Minister for Independence, that also emonstrates how blind the Scottish Government is to reality.

Shona Robison was on the news the other day talking about her £1billion shortfall in the budget - taxpayers' money for public services. The cost of ferry failure equates to half of that. How embarrassing indeed.

Is child poverty better or worse in Labour run Wales?


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[grunt]

Is child poverty better or worse in Labour run Wales?
Completely irrelevant. We're talking down Scotland on this thread.

[Sergio sledge]

I know, it’s tough. These two ferries are very late and should have been delivered. There is no doubt about it. Pointing out every single knock on effect doesn’t really help or enlighten the debate though. By the time the next election at Holyrood there will be 6 brand new boats in the water.


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This has been going on for years though, the disruption on certain routes caused by aging ferries requiring maintenance and there being no option for replacement has been a serious issue for a long time. I looked back at one of my friends (who lived on Uist at the time) twitter timeline and he was talking of issues 12 years ago.

The government has let the fleet age without adequate plans in place for replacing them. Which means we are at the point now where a significant proportion of the fleet need replaced in a short space of time and so any delays caused by mismanagement of contracts just causes more issues. They should never have got to the point they are at now if they'd put proper plans in place and managed things properly.

The 6 new ferries are only going to provide a sticking plaster to a problem, the fleet average age is 24 years old with operational life for a ferry expected to be around 30 years.

The only way issues like this, which affect island and rural communities but have very little effect on the central belt, can be kept in the public eye and action taken is by constantly reminding people who aren't affected by it of the problems caused by it. If everyone just shut up and said nothing because we're getting 6 new ferries then the ongoing issues (that these new ferries aren't going to solve) would be forgotten about by a government who seem to either not care or ignore issues affecting rural communities.

But yes, lets forget about the ongoing issues with lifeline services because we're getting 6 new ferries sometime in the next 3 years.

[Ozyhibby]

Another good outing for Yousaf at FMQ’s. Ross and Sarwar all over the place. After a rocky start as FM he seems to be settling in now.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Another good outing for Yousaf at FMQ’s. Ross and Sarwar all over the place. After a rocky start as FM he seems to be settling in now.


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But no one apart from politics geeks including myself watches Scottish FMQs, must be a few hundred.

His approval rating is rock bottom and the party is doing worse in every poll consistently. With a general election 16 months away probably, he needs to change something or there is going to big losses next year and surely his jotters. I don't know what that change of tactic should be but it needs to be sharp and soon you'd think

[Ozyhibby]

But no one apart from politics geeks including myself watches Scottish FMQs, must be a few hundred.

His approval rating is rock bottom and the party is doing worse in every poll consistently. With a general election 16 months away probably, he needs to change something or there is going to big losses next year and surely his jotters. I don't know what that change of tactic should be but it needs to be sharp and soon you'd think

I think there has been a change over the last couple of weeks. He has been spending more time with business groups and out in the community. To be honest, it looks like he’s campaigning already. What he’s not doing is giving constant sound bites on campervans etc. To early to tell yet but appears to be stabilising the ship. No need to panic just yet.
By every measure his govt is the best performing in the UK. A full 16 months to sell that message is plenty time.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think there has been a change over the last couple of weeks. He has been spending more time with business groups and out in the community. To be honest, it looks like he’s campaigning already. What he’s not doing is giving constant sound bites on campervans etc. To early to tell yet but appears to be stabilising the ship. No need to panic just yet.
By every measure his govt is the best performing in the UK. A full 16 months to sell that message is plenty time.


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It's been the same message the last few years and for the last 6 months it's been uk government are taking our power. Yet constant decline in the polls without bottoming out. I'm sure they will eventually bounce back a bit but it needs to start soon. I don't think the calamero act is working. I'd distance the greens and put 99% of efforts into the undecided middle ground

[Mibbes Aye]

By every measure his govt is the best performing in the UK. A full 16 months to sell that message is plenty time.


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Maybe you should tell people waiting more than four hours in A&E in Edinburgh, or on a waiting list for treatment, or waiting for urgent cancer treatment that their delay is okay because it could be a little worse if they were in England?

Incidentally, swathes of England including London, the North-East and the South-West perform better than Scotland. They would take umbrage at your suggestion Humza is doing a better job.

But getting back to your main point, are you sure the Scottish government has the best performance in the UK?

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe you should tell people waiting more than four hours in A&E in Edinburgh, or on a waiting list for treatment, or waiting for urgent cancer treatment that their delay is okay because it could be a little worse if they were in England?

Incidentally, swathes of England including London, the North-East and the South-West perform better than Scotland. They would take umbrage at your suggestion Humza is doing a better job.

But getting back to your main point, are you sure the Scottish government has the best performance in the UK?

From today, figures can be used by both sides to prove points at times

https://archive.ph/9KnuW

Thousands of Scots are waiting more than two years for treatment but in England only a few hundred face the same waits, according to Public Health Scotland (PHS) statistics.
Opposition leaders said the figures represented a “shameful failure” of the SNP government, and that ministers have previously been “quick to draw comparisons to England when it suits them”.
As of March 31, 7,849 Scots have been waiting over two years for inpatient, outpatient or day care treatment from NHS Scotland, while in England just 599 were suffering through the same lengthy waits.
England’s NHS also appears to outperform NHS Scotland at the 18-month mark. In England, 10,737 patients have been waiting longer than 18 months for treatment, while in Scotland, the figure is 21,681 - more than twice the number of English patients

[Hibrandenburg]

Maybe you should tell people waiting more than four hours in A&E in Edinburgh, or on a waiting list for treatment, or waiting for urgent cancer treatment that their delay is okay because it could be a little worse if they were in England

It could also be a lot better if staff shortages could be reduced by skilled EU staff but errr Brexit. Or if Scotland could decide to raise national insurance to provide a better service but errr reserved to UK Government. What about changing the immigration policy to make it easier to replace EU staff but errr people in boats. Maybe borrow some money, again nope, we have to stick to financing our needs from a budget depending on what Westminster decides to spend. I suppose we could put in more funds by making cuts in defence or the crown, but again no, all reserved.

As long as Scotland is tied to Westminster then our options are limited and our health service dependent to a large extent on what Westminster decides.

[Stairway 2 7]

It could also be a lot better if staff shortages could be reduced by skilled EU staff but errr Brexit. Or if Scotland could decide to raise national insurance to provide a better service but errr reserved to UK Government. What about changing the immigration policy to make it easier to replace EU staff but errr people in boats. Maybe borrow some money, again nope, we have to stick to financing our needs from a budget depending on what Westminster decides to spend. I suppose we could put in more funds by making cuts in defence or the crown, but again no, all reserved.

As long as Scotland is tied to Westminster then our options are limited and our health service dependent to a large extent on what Westminster decides.

Immigration has went through the roof since brexit and small boat furore though 600k net last year is massive, although most obviously down south. Income tax accounts for about a quarter of uk income so there is value is raising it which I'm glad we do. We also get 2k per head more than England to spend so you'd think our waiting list would be smaller but..


Im not saying brexit isn't an unmitigated disaster or that we shouldn't get more rights to raise other taxes. SNP policy though seems pretty consistent, take credit for the good, blame Westminster for the bad. I think many voters are bored of that after over a decade

[Mibbes Aye]

It could also be a lot better if staff shortages could be reduced by skilled EU staff but errr Brexit. Or if Scotland could decide to raise national insurance to provide a better service but errr reserved to UK Government. What about changing the immigration policy to make it easier to replace EU staff but errr people in boats. Maybe borrow some money, again nope, we have to stick to financing our needs from a budget depending on what Westminster decides to spend. I suppose we could put in more funds by making cuts in defence or the crown, but again no, all reserved.

As long as Scotland is tied to Westminster then our options are limited and our health service dependent to a large extent on what Westminster decides.

My point was about the sheer and utter crassness of SNP supporters making hollow boasts about how the SNP did better than the English. And those boasts actually being untrue. But I think you knew that.

People in crisis, people needing urgent health treatment generally don’t care if their treatment is marginally better or worse than say, England’s. They just want treatment. Preferably without the propaganda and lies.

[Hibrandenburg]

Immigration has went through the roof since brexit and small boat furore though 600k net last year is massive, although most obviously down south. Income tax accounts for about a quarter of uk income so there is value is raising it which I'm glad we do. We also get 2k per head more than England to spend so you'd think our waiting list would be smaller but..


Im not saying brexit isn't an unmitigated disaster or that we shouldn't get more rights to raise other taxes. SNP policy though seems pretty consistent, take credit for the good, blame Westminster for the bad. I think many voters are bored of that after over a decade

Are those immigrants allowed to work though?

[Ozyhibby]

Are those immigrants allowed to work though?

Yes but at a 20% discount to you and me.[emoji6]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/1664339467392393218?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Drakeford on recycling.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Are those immigrants allowed to work though?

Yes. 100k came from Hong Kong last year, young and well educated, were fortunate to have them. Our horrible trade deal we are about to sign with India will open the floodgates further as they are both making take a poor deal and open borders. It's great for us but voters of Brexit won't think so. We just need a way of getting them to settle here.

[Bristolhibby]

Yes but at a 20% discount to you and me.[emoji6]


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Phew, I thought they were claiming benefits instead of working jobs that Brits won’t do.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Yes. 100k came from Hong Kong last year, young and well educated, were fortunate to have them. Our horrible trade deal we are about to sign with India will open the floodgates further as they are both making take a poor deal and open borders. It's great for us but voters of Brexit won't think so. We just need a way of getting them to settle here.

The irony that people who were anti brown faces, have enabled a situation whereby less white Europeans enter in exchange for MORE brown faces coming to the U.K.

Marvellous.

J

[grunt]

My point was about the sheer and utter crassness of SNP supporters making hollow boasts about how the SNP did better than the English. And those boasts actually being untrue. But I think you knew that.

Agreed. It is similarly crass to boast about Labour's performance from 20 years ago. I accept that Labour was generally a positive force when in Government, but they've been a completely ineffective opposition in the 13 years since. They have allowed the Tories to get away with their lurch to the right, largely down to their putting Corbyn forward as Labour Leader, and also for not effectively opposing Brexit. Labour were complicit in the Tories' destruction of the UK.

[Mibbes Aye]

Agreed. It is similarly crass to boast about Labour's performance from 20 years ago. I accept that Labour was generally a positive force when in Government, but they've been a completely ineffective opposition in the 13 years since. They have allowed the Tories to get away with their lurch to the right, largely down to their putting Corbyn forward as Labour Leader, and also for not effectively opposing Brexit. Labour were complicit in the Tories' destruction of the UK.

My point was about Ozy telling patients in RIE that they should be grateful they weren't in hospital in Sheffield or Swansea. That's nothing to do with what Labour did last time in office.

I agree that since 2010 Labour hasn't laid a glove on the Tories at general elections. Miliband got a very rough time from the press mostly for standing up to them, but just about everything Miliband was proposing is now seen as common ground by everybody. As for Corbyn, his feeble and pitiful attempts to pretend he was genuinely pro-Remain did nothing to stop Brexit.

Your last sentence is utter nonsense. There isn't a great amount you can do facing an 80-seat majority but Labour's tactics to date have been to try and divide the Conservatives and lay bare their internal contradictions. They have done a good job of that. They also used the parliamentary chamber to pin down Johnson and his lies, and put him at risk of losing his seat in Parliament. That's rather effective opposition work. Come the election the electorate will decide, I guess.

[Since90+2]

My point was about Ozy telling patients in RIE that they should be grateful they weren't in hospital in Sheffield or Swansea. That's nothing to do with what Labour did last time in office.

I agree that since 2010 Labour hasn't laid a glove on the Tories at general elections. Miliband got a very rough time from the press mostly for standing up to them, but just about everything Miliband was proposing is now seen as common ground by everybody. As for Corbyn, his feeble and pitiful attempts to pretend he was genuinely pro-Remain did nothing to stop Brexit.

Your last sentence is utter nonsense. There isn't a great amount you can do facing an 80-seat majority but Labour's tactics to date have been to try and divide the Conservatives and lay bare their internal contradictions. They have done a good job of that. They also used the parliamentary chamber to pin down Johnson and his lies, and put him at risk of losing his seat in Parliament. That's rather effective opposition work. Come the election the electorate will decide, I guess.

If Labour had been more pro Remain/EU, as their membership was shown to be, then they'd not have had to contend with an 80 seat majority. Instead they fudged the issue, tried to play both sides and allowed the harshest of brexits to be inflicted on this country.

They'll probably be voted in at the next GE, not because they are any good but simply because the alternative is utterly horrendous.

[grunt]

As for Corbyn, his feeble and pitiful attempts to pretend he was genuinely pro-Remain did nothing to stop Brexit.

Your last sentence is utter nonsense. There isn't a great amount you can do facing an 80-seat majority but Labour's tactics to date have been to try and divide the Conservatives and lay bare their internal contradictions. They have done a good job of that. They also used the parliamentary chamber to pin down Johnson and his lies, and put him at risk of losing his seat in Parliament. That's rather effective opposition work. Come the election the electorate will decide, I guess.
I don't agree, but then I wouldn't would I?

Labour are complicit in the dreadful state of the UK because they did not oppose the Tory Brexit. As Her Majesty's Official Opposition they have been found wanting. Big time.

[Mibbes Aye]

If Labour had been more pro Remain/EU, as their membership was shown to be, then they'd not have had to contend with an 80 seat majority. Instead they fudged the issue, tried to play both sides and allowed the harshest of brexits to be inflicted on this country.

They'll probably be voted in at the next GE, not because they are any good but simply because the alternative is utterly horrendous.

I couldn't agree more. And as I have said countless times on here, the responsibility for that sits firmly and squarely with Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and the hard left entryists behind them. More Labour voters voted Remain than ever voted for Bagpuss's grand-dad but he well and truly sold the jerseys.

We had already left the EU by the time Starmer became leader.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't agree, but then I wouldn't would I?

Labour are complicit in the dreadful state of the UK because they did not oppose the Tory Brexit. As Her Majesty's Official Opposition they have been found wanting. Big time.

See my post above. There were plenty of us arguing that Corbyn would be a disaster at the time, during the time, after the time. Many decent people - members, councillors, MPs - left the party because of him and his 'people'. Some stayed and fought.

Did you blame Alex McLeish, or Hibs fans, for getting us relegated in 1998, incidentally?

[Ozyhibby]

See my post above. There were plenty of us arguing that Corbyn would be a disaster at the time, during the time, after the time. Many decent people - members, councillors, MPs - left the party because of him and his 'people'. Some stayed and fought.

Did you blame Alex McLeish, or Hibs fans, for getting us relegated in 1998, incidentally?

I blame the Duff Jimmy happy clappers.[emoji35]


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[grunt]

See my post above. There were plenty of us arguing that Corbyn would be a disaster at the time, during the time, after the time. Many decent people - members, councillors, MPs - left the party because of him and his 'people'. Some stayed and fought.

Labour is Labour to me, regardless of who the leader is at the time. I'm saying Labour weren't an effective opposition over the last 13 years and it sounds like you're agreeing with me.

Having said that, it seems that Starmer's approach to Brexit is pretty similar to Corbyn's: "What's done is done, no SM, CU or FOM"?

[Mibbes Aye]

I blame the Duff Jimmy happy clappers.[emoji35]


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Andy Dow will come good, missing piece of the jigsaw etc etc :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Labour is Labour to me, regardless of who the leader is at the time. I'm saying Labour weren't an effective opposition over the last 13 years and it sounds like you're agreeing with me.

Your first sentence doesn't do you any favours, honestly. It is a simple-minded in the extreme. You've just been calling Labour 'sensible' on another thread.

As for an effective opposition, I posted elsewehere that a huge amount of what Ed Miliband wanted to do (and was pilloried for) is now seen as common ground for all parties. And in Starmer's time we have seen the Tories forced into U-turning on a windfall tax on energy suppliers. We have also seen him lead the way in getting Johnson to a place where he may lose his seat for his lies.

What has galled but was ultimately necessary was the work Starmer and the party has had to do, to expunge the entryists, deal with those who would hi-jack the party for their own ends. That job is pretty much done now. Neil Kinnock had to do it in the eighties and Labour still lost the next two elections on voter trust. Starmer, if the polling holds true, will have done that between two elections and led LAbour back to government. That's unprecedented.


said that, it seems that Starmer's approach to Brexit is pretty similar to Corbyn's: "What's done is done, no SM, CU or FOM"?

Brexit had happened before Starmer was leader. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason the deal was so poor was because the Tories dodn't want to stand at the despatch box and defend the negotiations against a man who had built a career on being a human rights lawyer and on prosecuting serious crime.

But let's get to the point here. The Brexit vote was to Leave. Like it or lump it, that's democracy.

Do you think if the people vote to leave a union then their sovereign will should be respected?

[Stairway 2 7]

Your first sentence doesn't do you any favours, honestly. It is a simple-minded in the extreme. You've just been calling Labour 'sensible' on another thread.

As for an effective opposition, I posted elsewehere that a huge amount of what Ed Miliband wanted to do (and was pilloried for) is now seen as common ground for all parties. And in Starmer's time we have seen the Tories forced into U-turning on a windfall tax on energy suppliers. We have also seen him lead the way in getting Johnson to a place where he may lose his seat for his lies.

What has galled but was ultimately necessary was the work Starmer and the party has had to do, to expunge the entryists, deal with those who would hi-jack the party for their own ends. That job is pretty much done now. Neil Kinnock had to do it in the eighties and Labour still lost the next two elections on voter trust. Starmer, if the polling holds true, will have done that between two elections and led LAbour back to government. That's unprecedented.



Brexit had happened before Starmer was leader. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason the deal was so poor was because the Tories dodn't want to stand at the despatch box and defend the negotiations against a man who had built a career on being a human rights lawyer and on prosecuting serious crime.

But let's get to the point here. The Brexit vote was to Leave. Like it or lump it, that's democracy.

Do you think if the people vote to leave a union then their sovereign will should be respected?

The way you speak to posters is abhorrent sometimes honestly. Smarmy arrogant and condescending, new Labour. Can't even be bothered debating points on this thread because Mandelson the spin doctor will be on to say, Starmer has never done anything bad, even if it's clearly obvious like not pushing for a full return to the EU or getting more immigration

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/deposit-return-scheme-in-grave-danger-from-uk-government-says-humza-yousaf-in-letter-to-rishi-sunak?fbclid=IwAR0_nHto2Fo2NdbGIqR9yB_MIqqHEnK_R1b cMgRMS6okXkRYCHLGRQ_oubY


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/delayed-calmac-ferry-glen-sannox-could-set-to-sea-today-says-ferguson-marine-boss?utm_source=app

A silver lining would be knowing that this shipyard had been saved.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65795252?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=49E67D60-042B-11EE-B34B-11D4D772BE90&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link

More info on the ferries, especially on what caused the delays. Interesting stuff.


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[greenginger]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/delayed-calmac-ferry-glen-sannox-could-set-to-sea-today-says-ferguson-marine-boss?utm_source=app

A silver lining would be knowing that this shipyard had been saved.


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Jim McColl reckons the shipyard would have prospered without the ferry contract.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2022/06/ferries-now-obsolete-says-former-yard-owner/amp/

[Ozyhibby]

Jim McColl reckons the shipyard would have prospered without the ferry contract.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2022/06/ferries-now-obsolete-says-former-yard-owner/amp/

Of course he does. I’d be playing for Hibs as well if it wasn’t for my lack of ability.[emoji849]


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[greenginger]

Of course he does. I’d be playing for Hibs as well if it wasn’t for my lack of ability.[emoji849]


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I think Jim McColl has a proven track record for business competence, whereas SNP ministers have a record of incompetence in most matters.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think Jim McColl has a proven track record for business competence

Is that why he was part of the consortium that attempted to buy Rangers in 2010? Because of his proven business competence?

[Ozyhibby]

I think Jim McColl has a proven track record for business competence, whereas SNP ministers have a record of incompetence in most matters.

No track record in building boats though.


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[greenginger]

Is that why he was part of the consortium that attempted to buy Rangers in 2010? Because of his proven business competence?


I’m sure his business acumen would be one of the reasons he was invited to join the consortium.

It certainly wasn’t because he was a havering politician.

[greenginger]

No track record in building boats though.


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I don’t think anyone has a track record building the boats planned by Scottish Government/CalMac.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65795252?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=49E67D60-042B-11EE-B34B-11D4D772BE90&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link

More info on the ferries, especially on what caused the delays. Interesting stuff.


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A hefty dollop of spin there.

Six years late, three times over budget and a project mired in murkiness and incompetence. There's no turning this into a 'good news' story.

[Ozyhibby]

A hefty dollop of spin there.

Six years late, three times over budget and a project mired in murkiness and incompetence. There's no turning this into a 'good news' story.

It’s good news if the shipyard survives and thrives going forward surely?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

It’s good news if the shipyard survives and thrives going forward surely?


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Depends who you ask. Some people were desperate for it to fail.

[degenerated]

It’s good news if the shipyard survives and thrives going forward surely?


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im not sure that's how unionism works

[Just Alf]

About time!

BBC News - MPs vote to ban Margaret Ferrier from Commons for 30 days
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65702252

[Ozyhibby]

About time!

BBC News - MPs vote to ban Margaret Ferrier from Commons for 30 days
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65702252

Well done the SNP putting principle first.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Ian Blackford to stand down as an MP at next election.

Wonder if he's retiring from politics or fancies Holyrood in future.

[He's here!]

Ian Blackford to stand down as an MP at next election.

Wonder if he's retiring from politics or fancies Holyrood in future.

Hopefully the former.

[Just Alf]

Ian Blackford to stand down as an MP at next election.

Wonder if he's retiring from politics or fancies Holyrood in future.I get the impression he's going to do a sort of Gordon Brown/Labour thing, but on the opposite side :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I get the impression he's going to do a sort of Gordon Brown/Labour thing, but on the opposite side :greengrin

Ooohh… secret dark money funded think tank?


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[Just Alf]

Ooohh… secret dark money funded think tank?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNow THAT is a step too far! :rofl:

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/redfieldwilton/status/1666476416202833921?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Starting to bounce back.


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[He's here!]

Scottish deposit return delayed until October 2025 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65836297)

Shambles from start to finish. Slater surely has to resign. As Circularity Scotland point out there was nothing to prevent next year's launch in Scotland (other than, presumably, the SNP's petulant determination to pick a fight).

Macwhirter is spot on:

The SNP can't blame Westminster for Lorna Slater's recycling disaster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lorna-slaters-recycling-disaster/)

[Just Alf]

Scottish deposit return delayed until October 2025 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65836297)

Shambles from start to finish. Slater surely has to resign. As Circularity Scotland point out there was nothing to prevent next year's launch in Scotland (other than, presumably, the SNP's petulant determination to pick a fight).

Macwhirter is spot on:

The SNP can't blame Westminster for Lorna Slater's recycling disaster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lorna-slaters-recycling-disaster/)Got to this bit and gave up....

"Indeed, what is the point of requiring UK companies to have separate labelling and deposit recovery protocols for Scotland alone? Surely the 20p on a can of coke bought in Scotland should be redeemable anywhere in the UK? The Scottish government was willy nilly creating a regulatory border in the UK. It was like Brexit for bottles and cans.*"

The whole point of the Scottish system is that it IS linked across all 4 UK jurisdictions as and when they came on stream. If theyve got that wrong then I'm not sure what else?

[grunt]

Macwhirter is spot on
That would be a first.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish deposit return delayed until October 2025 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65836297)

Shambles from start to finish. Slater surely has to resign. As Circularity Scotland point out there was nothing to prevent next year's launch in Scotland (other than, presumably, the SNP's petulant determination to pick a fight).

Macwhirter is spot on:

The SNP can't blame Westminster for Lorna Slater's recycling disaster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lorna-slaters-recycling-disaster/)

Or maybe devolution should mean something? This hasn’t been a shambles, it’s been sabotaged. Still, you keep waving your union flag.[emoji106]


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[marinello59]

Or maybe devolution should mean something? This hasn’t been a shambles, it’s been sabotaged. Still, you keep waving your union flag.[emoji106]


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I’m a long time Yes voter. Nothing to do with waving a Union Flag, Slater oversaw a shambles. Blaming Westminster just won’t gain any traction on this one. She should be sacked but no chance of that.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m a long time Yes voter. Nothing to do with waving a Union Flag, Slater oversaw a shambles. Blaming Westminster just won’t gain any traction on this one. She should be sacked but no chance of that.

What specifically was a shambles?


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[Hiber-nation]

I’m a long time Yes voter. Nothing to do with waving a Union Flag, Slater oversaw a shambles. Blaming Westminster just won’t gain any traction on this one. She should be sacked but no chance of that.

Commonly known as Loopy Lorna by civil servants, even green sympathising ones.

[marinello59]

What specifically was a shambles?


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We had this same conversation last week or the week before. We can just scroll back to save us both time. :greengrin
If you think Slater was on top of her brief then we are never going to agree anyway.

[grunt]

We had this same conversation last week or the week before. We can just scroll back to save us both time. :greengrin
If you think Slater was on top of her brief then we are never going to agree anyway.
The view from Wales:

https://twitter.com/ScotIncGrowth/status/1664434342230204416?s=20

[Jack]

Scottish deposit return delayed until October 2025 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65836297)

Shambles from start to finish. Slater surely has to resign. As Circularity Scotland point out there was nothing to prevent next year's launch in Scotland (other than, presumably, the SNP's petulant determination to pick a fight).

Macwhirter is spot on:

The SNP can't blame Westminster for Lorna Slater's recycling disaster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lorna-slaters-recycling-disaster/)

I wonder, for the good of us all, how the UK government is going to introduce this in England now without looking foolish? Or will the tory liars leave it to Labour?

[Mibbes Aye]

Or maybe devolution should mean something? This hasn’t been a shambles, it’s been sabotaged. Still, you keep waving your union flag.[emoji106]


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I've not been following this one that closely but I think I read that Lorna Slater was claiming that it was 'sabotage' to be wanting a common labelling system across the four nations, a common logo and a common adminisration fee. That sounds like common sense to me, not 'sabotage'.

I read that business, from the Federation of Small Businesses through to the likes of Tesco wanted a common UK implentation date. That sounds like common sense to me, not 'sabotage'

She does seem like a bit of a weak link in the government.

[Ozyhibby]

I've not been following this one that closely but I think I read that Lorna Slater was claiming that it was 'sabotage' to be wanting a common labelling system across the four nations, a common logo and a common adminisration fee. That sounds like common sense to me, not 'sabotage'.

I read that business, from the Federation of Small Businesses through to the likes of Tesco wanted a common UK implentation date. That sounds like common sense to me, not 'sabotage'

She does seem like a bit of a weak link in the government.

Business didn’t want more regulation? Colour me shocked. Devolution is dying.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Business didn’t want more regulation? Colour me shocked. Devolution is dying.


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You've misread. They wanted consistency.

[Ozyhibby]

You've misread. They wanted consistency.

So not devolution?


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[Andy Bee]

I’m a long time Yes voter. Nothing to do with waving a Union Flag, Slater oversaw a shambles. Blaming Westminster just won’t gain any traction on this one. She should be sacked but no chance of that.

So are you saying that you agree with Jacks intervention?

[Ozyhibby]

You've misread. They wanted consistency.

Sorry, with what?


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[Mibbes Aye]

So not devolution?


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I don't see the DRS as being this big act of sabotage. Firstly it sounds silly. Secondly, if you wanted to undermine devoution there would be far more effective ways to do that.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry, with what?


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With labelling, logo, admin fee and implementation date. Businesses from small to large seem to prefer that.

[marinello59]

So are you saying that you agree with Jacks intervention?

No. I’ve said previously on this thread I was uncomfortable with it. I don’t agree with him but Jack has politically outmanoeuvred Slater, there won’t be a massive surge in support for Indy on the back of this. It is possible to be critical of both Governments at the same time.

[Ozyhibby]

No. I’ve said previously on this thread I was uncomfortable with it. I don’t agree with him but Jack has politically outmanoeuvred Slater, there won’t be a massive surge in support for Indy on the back of this. It is possible to be critical of both Governments at the same time.

Has he outmanoeuvred her or just used the new powers they have given themselves over the Scottish Parliament? The fact is, what Jack says goes. There is nothing the SG can do about it.
Your correct in that support for Indy may not rise. Half of Scotland seems comfortable with the return of power to Westminster.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/redfieldwilton/status/1666494396181667860?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Public supported the DRS.


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[degenerated]

Sorry, with what?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkConsistency with a UK system where Wales are okay to do the exact same thing that Scotland got stopped for.

This is almost certainly nothing to do with muscular unionism, donations from the whisky industry to Tory party or the unelected deputy viceroy offord and his latge shareholding in the whisky industry.

[Ozyhibby]

Consistency with a UK system where Wales are okay to do the exact same thing that Scotland got stopped for.

This is almost certainly nothing to do with muscular unionism, donations from the whisky industry to Tory party or the unelected deputy viceroy offord and his latge shareholding in the whisky industry.

Consistency with a non existent scheme in England.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

Sarwar’s silence on this will be good for the SNP. Any Scot in favour of protecting the environment can see that only the SNP will stand up for that.


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[Moulin Yarns]

sarwar’s silence on this will be good for the snp. Any scot in favour of protecting the environment can see that only the scottish green party will stand up for that.


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ftfy

[He's here!]

Calls for compensation as deposit return scheme delayed - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65843748)

Businesses set to seek compensation from the SG in the wake of the DRS fiasco.

Slater's the stooge here but it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.

[Ozyhibby]

Calls for compensation as deposit return scheme delayed - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65843748)

Businesses set to seek compensation from the SG in the wake of the DRS fiasco.

Slater's the stooge here but it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.

Labour councillor attacks SNP. Shocked.


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[Kato]

Calls for compensation as deposit return scheme delayed - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65843748)

Businesses set to seek compensation from the SG in the wake of the DRS fiasco.

Slater's the stooge here but it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.In what manner does it pander to NS's vanity?

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[JimBHibees]

In what manner does it pander to NS's vanity?

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It just does right :greengrin

[grunt]

... it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.:faf:

[marinello59]

Calls for compensation as deposit return scheme delayed - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65843748)

Businesses set to seek compensation from the SG in the wake of the DRS fiasco.

Slater's the stooge here but it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.

It was far from a vanity project, it was well intended and needed legislation, the principal of which has the support of every party in the UK. Hopefully something is rescued from the wreckage, we owe it to future generations to get this stuff right.

[He's here!]

It was far from a vanity project, it was well intended and needed legislation, the principal of which has the support of every party in the UK. Hopefully something is rescued from the wreckage, we owe it to future generations to get this stuff right.

I agree that most bona fide recycling initiatives (as opposed to the 'greenwashing' we've seen various companies called out for) are well intended, but this was ill-considered from the start. Anyone could see that this (like the gender reform bill) was only going to set the Scottish Parliament on a collision course with Westminster. It was cynical, self-aggrandisement from Sturgeon, which most Scottish businesses saw right through (yet were compelled to jump through hoops to comply, while she turned a deaf ear to their concerns). Yousaf's attempt to spin C&C Group's stance on the issue was desperate stuff and they rightly called him out for it. Slater? I almost feel sorry for her, but her ineptitude has been laid bare to those few who still didn't appreciate the scale of her glaikitness.

[grunt]

I agree that most bona fide recycling initiatives (as opposed to the 'greenwashing' we've seen various companies called out for) are well intended, but this was ill-considered from the start. Anyone could see that this (like the gender reform bill) was only going to set the Scottish Parliament on a collision course with Westminster. It was cynical, self-aggrandisement from Sturgeon, which most Scottish businesses saw right through (yet were compelled to jump through hoops to comply, while she turned a deaf ear to their concerns). Yousaf's attempt to spin C&C Group's stance on the issue was desperate stuff and they rightly called him out for it. Slater? I almost feel sorry for her, but her ineptitude has been laid bare to those few who still didn't appreciate the scale of her glaikitness.Not a vanity project, then?

[Ozyhibby]

I agree that most bona fide recycling initiatives (as opposed to the 'greenwashing' we've seen various companies called out for) are well intended, but this was ill-considered from the start. Anyone could see that this (like the gender reform bill) was only going to set the Scottish Parliament on a collision course with Westminster. It was cynical, self-aggrandisement from Sturgeon, which most Scottish businesses saw right through (yet were compelled to jump through hoops to comply, while she turned a deaf ear to their concerns). Yousaf's attempt to spin C&C Group's stance on the issue was desperate stuff and they rightly called him out for it. Slater? I almost feel sorry for her, but her ineptitude has been laid bare to those few who still didn't appreciate the scale of her glaikitness.

A bill passed 2 or 3 years ago when Westminster had the exact same policy was designed to set us on a collision course with Westminster? Good one.[emoji6][emoji23][emoji23]
The UK govt only moved against glass 6 months ago long after the SG started the work on this.


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[He's here!]

Not a vanity project, then?

Ego-driven might be more accurate.

[weecounty hibby]

Ego-driven might be more accurate.

Is the Welsh or NI schemes ego driven? Just curious as they seem to be the same as the one proposed by Holyrood. It only appears to be the English government that is out of step with the rest of this union of equals. Certainly that's how Mark Drakeford (Labour) sees it

[degenerated]

Ego-driven might be more accurate.Or, equally, it might also be as nonsensical as your previous claim.

[J-C]

Ego-driven might be more accurate.

I watched a programme recently and the last 15 min was dedicated to Denmark's bottle and can recycle programme with deposit vending style machines which gave out vouchers to be cashed in or used as part payment. Does this mean Denmark's perfectly good working recycling system was ego driven, as to me it looks exactly the same as the one Scotland is suggesting.

[He's here!]

Is the Welsh or NI schemes ego driven? Just curious as they seem to be the same as the one proposed by Holyrood. It only appears to be the English government that is out of step with the rest of this union of equals. Certainly that's how Mark Drakeford (Labour) sees it

If it was just the failure of the DRS scheme we were talking about then you could probably cut Sturgeon some slack, but she had form for tin-eared determination to push things through. In this case even her own ministers were calling for a rethink, but (as with the hopelessly flawed gender reform bill) she seemed concerned only with burnishing her fast-fading legacy by driving it through. Ditto the daft Supreme Court battle last year, doomed to failure from the start but doggedly pursued for the sole purpose of stoking grievance.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

If it was just the failure of the DRS scheme we were talking about then you could probably cut Sturgeon some slack, but she had form for tin-eared determination to push things through. In this case even her own ministers were calling for a rethink, but (as with the hopelessly flawed gender reform bill) she seemed concerned only with burnishing her fast-fading legacy by driving it through. Ditto the daft Supreme Court battle last year, doomed to failure from the start but doggedly pursued for the sole purpose of stoking grievance.

A "hopelessly flawed gender reform bill" that was backed by a clear majority of parliament. How lucky we are to have another parliament made up of MPs that we don't vote for to decide for us whether one of our own bills is flawed or not.

[grunt]

Businesses set to seek compensation from the SG in the wake of the DRS fiasco.
Slater's the stooge here but it's another vanity project from Sturgeon that's ended in ignominy.


If it was just the failure of the DRS scheme we were talking about then you could probably cut Sturgeon some slack, but she had form for tin-eared determination to push things through.
That was what we were talking about. You seem to u-turn quicker than a Labour politician.


... she had form for tin-eared determination to push things through.Otherwise known as fulfilling her party's manifesto and enacting the wishes of the majority of the Scottish parliament. You'd be criticising her if she hadn't gone ahead with it.

[Ozyhibby]

Is the Welsh or NI schemes ego driven? Just curious as they seem to be the same as the one proposed by Holyrood. It only appears to be the English government that is out of step with the rest of this union of equals. Certainly that's how Mark Drakeford (Labour) sees it

And they have only been out of step for 6 months. Previously everyone was aligned. It’s almost like they engineered this.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dress this anyway you like but this has been a slap down of Scotland by the UK govt. It’s them showing who’s boss. They have had enough of devolution and it’s time for muscular unionism. And fair play to them, we have been slapped down pretty good.


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[grunt]

And fair play to them, we have been slapped down pretty good.
No.

[Just Alf]

Dress this anyway you like but this has been a slap down of Scotland by the UK govt. It’s them showing who’s boss. They have had enough of devolution and it’s time for muscular unionism. And fair play to them, we have been slapped down pretty good.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's crazy... all 4 nations were heading in the same direction, its almost like because one was so far behind in implementation of their bit they decided to move the goal posts for everyone.

[Ozyhibby]

It's crazy... all 4 nations were heading in the same direction, its almost like because one was so far behind in implementation of their bit they decided to move the goal posts for everyone.

It’s not just moving goalposts. We have to totally comply with their system. We have to charge the same amount but they won’t tell us how much. Our regulations have to match their even though theirs don’t exist yet.


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[Kato]

It’s not just moving goalposts. We have to totally comply with their system. We have to charge the same amount but they won’t tell us how much. Our regulations have to match their even though theirs don’t exist yet.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWell that's Nicola Sturgeon's vanity project stopped just in time. Phew!

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[Mibbes Aye]

It's crazy... all 4 nations were heading in the same direction, its almost like because one was so far behind in implementation of their bit they decided to move the goal posts for everyone.

That's probably as close to the truth as anything I've read yet :greengrin

The other thing, that couldn't possibly be said because it would lead to some posters gouging their eyes out and setting fire to their keyboards :greengrin would be that since 84% of the population lives in England, it might be considered helpful by business to wait on them.

The one thing I can't work out though, and I'm sure there will be enlightened posters to help me out here - the Tories have been in power since 2010, we have had devolved government since 1999.

Why would the perfidious Albion wait all that time to undermine devolution, if they always intended to? Surely just after 2014 would have been the right time?

And why pick two areas like gender reform and DRS - one where the public seems to be split (and a large proportion would rather just not talk about it!) and one where the public seems to think it is a reasonable idea in principle but have little or no interest in the technical detail?

That's the bit that doesn't add up for me.

[Ozyhibby]

That's probably as close to the truth as anything I've read yet :greengrin

The other thing, that couldn't possibly be said because it would lead to some posters gouging their eyes out and setting fire to their keyboards :greengrin would be that since 84% of the population lives in England, it might be considered helpful by business to wait on them.

The one thing I can't work out though, and I'm sure there will be enlightened posters to help me out here - the Tories have been in power since 2010, we have had devolved government since 1999.

Why would the perfidious Albion wait all that time to undermine devolution, if they always intended to? Surely just after 2014 would have been the right time?

And why pick two areas like gender reform and DRS - one where the public seems to be split (and a large proportion would rather just not talk about it!) and one where the public seems to think it is a reasonable idea in principle but have little or no interest in the technical detail?

That's the bit that doesn't add up for me.

The new muscular unionism is a recent change in direction. The Tories have been debating it for a while. Those against like Gove have lost.
Would be nice if Labour would stand behind the devolution they delivered or is it to be sacrificed so Starmer doesn’t upset voters in England?
Second last paragraph is where I am on both issues. What I do care about is it should be for Scottish Parliament to introduce. If we make a mistake we should own it but it should be our mistake to make. On both issues.

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[Hibrandenburg]

It’s not just moving goalposts. We have to totally comply with their system. We have to charge the same amount but they won’t tell us how much. Our regulations have to match their even though theirs don’t exist yet.


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The Scottish Government are on a very dangerous tack. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas and what's worse is they are doing it deliberately.

[Jack]

It's crazy... all 4 nations were heading in the same direction, its almost like because one was so far behind in implementation of their bit they decided to move the goal posts for everyone.

They are only delaying in England because the torys are looking for the best way to line their pockets.

[degenerated]

It’s not just moving goalposts. We have to totally comply with their system. We have to charge the same amount but they won’t tell us how much. Our regulations have to match their even though theirs don’t exist yet.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's purely political, they're going to do this with every bit of legislation the Scottish government tries to implement. They've decided that devolution is only acceptable if we elect a unionist government.

[Mibbes Aye]

The new muscular unionism is a recent change in direction. The Tories have been debating it for a while. Those against like Gove have lost.
Would be nice if Labour would stand behind the devolution they delivered or is it to be sacrificed so Starmer doesn’t upset voters in England?
Second last paragraph is where I am on both issues. What I do care about is it should be for Scottish Parliament to introduce. If we make a mistake we should own it but it should be our mistake to make. On both issues.

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:faf:

You are just making things up!

Starmer was in Rutherglen and Hamilton and was asked about the DRS. His response?

He couldn't understand how two governments between them couldn't manage to make this work. He is in favour of a DRS but it left him "flabbergasted" that two elected givernements seemed more caught up in petty divisiveness and blame, than actually just making it work.

And you know what, I think he probably speaks for a majority there.

[JimBHibees]

:faf:

You are just making things up!

Starmer was in Rutherglen and Hamilton and was asked about the DRS. His response?

He couldn't understand how two governments between them couldn't manage to make this work. He is in favour of a DRS but it left him "flabbergasted" that two elected givernements seemed more caught up in petty divisiveness and blame, than actually just making it work.

And you know what, I think he probably speaks for a majority there.

An easy line to come out with he should be standing up for devolution much more than he and his party in this country are doing but obviously suits him politically to be as bland as he presents himself to be.

[grunt]

Starmer knows full well why the two Governments failed to agree but it suits his political ambitions to knock the Scottish Government.

[He's here!]

:faf:

You are just making things up!

Starmer was in Rutherglen and Hamilton and was asked about the DRS. His response?

He couldn't understand how two governments between them couldn't manage to make this work. He is in favour of a DRS but it left him "flabbergasted" that two elected givernements seemed more caught up in petty divisiveness and blame, than actually just making it work.

And you know what, I think he probably speaks for a majority there.

I'd agree with you there.

[Mibbes Aye]

Starmer knows full well why the two Governments failed to agree but it suits his political ambitions to knock the Scottish Government.

The Scottish Government aren't as important to him as you make out, but the Scottish people are.

And he's nailed it here. People are looking at this abject spectacle of two governments unable to make a bottle return scheme work between them, and wondering WTF are they playing at?

FFS, my mum trusted me to take the bottles down to the juice lorry and I was seven at the time :faf:

[weecounty hibby]

The Scottish Government aren't as important to him as you make out, but the Scottish people are.

And he's nailed it here. People are looking at this abject spectacle of two governments unable to make a bottle return scheme work between them, and wondering WTF are they playing at?

FFS, my mum trusted me to take the bottles down to the juice lorry and I was seven at the time :faf:
4 governments. And only one of the is causing the issues

[Keith_M]

The Scottish Government aren't as important to him as you make out, but the Scottish people are.

And he's nailed it here. People are looking at this abject spectacle of two governments unable to make a bottle return scheme work between them, and wondering WTF are they playing at?

FFS, my mum trusted me to take the bottles down to the juice lorry and I was seven at the time :faf:


The Scottish Government have done their best to try to implement a scheme that was intended, at some point, to be rolled out across the whole of the UK. The UK government had in fact agreed with the original format of the scheme, but have reneged on this and are now blocking any progress.

Given that, I'm confused as to how you now come to the conclusion that this is just being about two governments that cannot agree.

[degenerated]

The Scottish Government have done their best to try to implement a scheme that was intended, at some point, to be rolled out across the whole of the UK. The UK government had in fact agreed with the original format of the scheme, but have reneged on this and are now blocking any progress.

Given that, I'm confused as to how you now come to the conclusion that this is just being about two governments that cannot agree.I'm sure you know why :hilarious

[Mibbes Aye]

4 governments. And only one of the is causing the issues

That's unfair on the Scottish Government, I think the Tories are just as culpable as the SNP on this one. Well, I say SNP, but it's been the Scottish Greens laying down the law to them again, hasn't it?

England, Wales and Northern Ireland go live, jointly, no later than Oct 2025, that's right isn't it?

[weecounty hibby]

That's unfair on the Scottish Government, I think the Tories are just as culpable as the SNP on this one. Well, I say SNP, but it's been the Scottish Greens laying down the law to them again, hasn't it?

England, Wales and Northern Ireland go live, jointly, no later than Oct 2025, that's right isn't it?

You know exactly that the English government had agreed to go ahead with what the Scottish government proposed. The fact that they can't get their act together like Scotland did, and on so many topics, has led them to move the goal posts, get the Jack boots out and trample over the Scottish government because they can. Pretty sad state of affairs and even sadder that you think it's OK. Wales and NI had no issues with Scotland leading the way, I wonder why that wasn't the case with tye English government

[Mibbes Aye]

You know exactly that the English government had agreed to go ahead with what the Scottish government proposed. The fact that they can't get their act together like Scotland did, and on so many topics, has led them to move the goal posts, get the Jack boots out and trample over the Scottish government because they can. Pretty sad state of affairs and even sadder that you think it's OK. Wales and NI had no issues with Scotland leading the way, I wonder why that wasn't the case with tye English government

I don't think it's OK. i think it is a bloody shambles that the two governments can't sort out a bottle recycling scheme between them without it descending into a vitriolic blame game.

And I think a lot of ordinary voters like me will reflect on this psychodrama and why the two governmens involved seem to be doing more blaming than fixing.

It cannot be that difficult!

[He's here!]

You know exactly that the English government had agreed to go ahead with what the Scottish government proposed. The fact that they can't get their act together like Scotland did, and on so many topics, has led them to move the goal posts, get the Jack boots out and trample over the Scottish government because they can. Pretty sad state of affairs and even sadder that you think it's OK. Wales and NI had no issues with Scotland leading the way, I wonder why that wasn't the case with tye English government

There's no English government.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think it's OK. i think it is a bloody shambles that the two governments can't sort out a bottle recycling scheme between them without it descending into a vitriolic blame game.

And I think a lot of ordinary voters like me will reflect on this psychodrama and why the two governmens involved seem to be doing more blaming than fixing.

It cannot be that difficult!

One government got the legislation through parliament, and put everything in place required to run a scheme agreed by all parliamentary parties, the other dragged their heals, took backhanders from interested parties and removed glass from their proposed scheme.

Do you agree?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

There's no English government.

Indeed. Just a Government put together by 84% of the British electorate that happen to reside in England in a FPTP system that effectively allows them to dictate over 99% of the decisions made. Real strong point you've put forward there.

[Mibbes Aye]

Indeed. Just a Government put together by 84% of the British electorate that happen to reside in England in a FPTP system that effectively allows them to dictate over 99% of the decisions made. Real strong point you've put forward there.

You are not quite right. Some of the electorate in Scotland voted Conservative, and some MPs and ministers are Scottish and Conservative. That’s fact, as much as you or I might not like it.

Sounds like you are lumping England and Conservative together. I wonder why?

[Mibbes Aye]

One government got the legislation through parliament, and put everything in place required to run a scheme agreed by all parliamentary parties, the other dragged their heals, took backhanders from interested parties and removed glass from their proposed scheme.

Do you agree?

Thank you for asking but I’m not sure I do. I think businesses tried to warn Slater and now they are thinking of suing SG:

I also think UKG should have been more proactive on DRS.

But most of all I think the two governments should both get their act together, drop the blame game rhetoric and fix it.

[JimBHibees]

Indeed. Just a Government put together by 84% of the British electorate that happen to reside in England in a FPTP system that effectively allows them to dictate over 99% of the decisions made. Real strong point you've put forward there.

Yeah but apart from that.

[ACLeith]

Indeed. Just a Government put together by 84% of the British electorate that happen to reside in England in a FPTP system that effectively allows them to dictate over 99% of the decisions made. Real strong point you've put forward there.

A very good friend who is as strongly against Independence as I am in favour, agrees that it is fair to call it an English government.

He agrees that of the 3 countries and 1 Province that make up the UK, only 1 of the four voted Tory at the last election, hence he accepts the logic of the statement.

[Moulin Yarns]

Thank you for asking but I’m not sure I do. I think businesses tried to warn Slater and now they are thinking of suing SG:

I also think UKG should have been more proactive on DRS.

But most of all I think the two governments should both get their act together, drop the blame game rhetoric and fix it.

Aye, Sue the Scottish Government for the delay in implementation. Do you see the flaw in that arguement?

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, Sue the Scottish Government for the delay in implementation. Do you see the flaw in that arguement?

I don't think that's why they are considering legal action.

I think it's to do with SG telling them they needed to invest what little capital they had into something that's effectively mothballed for two years.

Anyway, I want to be clear on this. It's easy to blame the SG for their part in this utter shambles but the UKG have dithered and diddled as well.

I still don't get how Bon Accord could do it but the SNP and the Tories can't :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think that's why they are considering legal action.

I think it's to do with SG telling them they needed to invest what little capital they had into something that's effectively mothballed for two years.

Anyway, I want to be clear on this. It's easy to blame the SG for their part in this utter shambles but the UKG have dithered and diddled as well.

I still don't get how Bon Accord could do it but the SNP and the Tories can't :greengrin

The only reason the Scottish Parliament can't is because the UK parliament said naw. Do you see where the problem lies? why there is a delay? why the retailers are considering sueing?

No doubt you will come back with more false blame. You have taken on the mantle of a former poster on here who shall remain nameless!

[Mibbes Aye]

The only reason the Scottish Parliament can't is because the UK parliament said naw. Do you see where the problem lies? why there is a delay? why the retailers are considering sueing?

No doubt you will come back with more false blame. You have taken on the mantle of a former poster on here who shall remain nameless!

There had already been a delay because Humza announced one when he became FM. But you are just continuing with the blame game that I sincerely believe most voters couldn't care less about.

And what's this "false blame" nonsense? As I said at the outset, as a detached observer, it looks like a mess. Because it is a mess. And instead of fixing the mess, the two elected governments are bickering like pre-schoolers about who goes first for indoor playtime.

How about working together to fix it, rather than blaming each other for breaking it?

[Ozyhibby]

This is all very Donald Trump ‘very fine people on both sides’.
I guess when it’s suits your narrative you can believe that.


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[Just Alf]

You are not quite right. Some of the electorate in Scotland voted Conservative, and some MPs and ministers are Scottish and Conservative. That’s fact, as much as you or I might not like it.

Sounds like you are lumping England and Conservative together. I wonder why?Hang on... remember the Conservatives that some of us voted for in Scotland also voted this policy through... as that was what was originally agreed by all parties

[Mibbes Aye]

This is all very Donald Trump ‘very fine people on both sides’.
I guess when it’s suits your narrative you can believe that.


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Nothing 'very fine' about any of them IMO.

Slater is plain old incompetent. If she was in a majority party government she would have been moved along long before now.

Jack, I genuinely can't think of anything worthwhile I can affix credit to him for.

[marinello59]

This is all very Donald Trump ‘very fine people on both sides’.
I guess when it’s suits your narrative you can believe that.


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Any chance of quoting who has said that Oz? I’m struggling to find anybody pushing that line here so I am guessing it’s a news quote I have missed. Personally I think the lot of them are ********s..:greengrin

[TrumpIsAPeado]

This is all very Donald Trump ‘very fine people on both sides’.
I guess when it’s suits your narrative you can believe that.


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:agree:

It's an effort to apply a balanced narrative to a situation that is very much unbalanced. Both Governments working together for the greater good simply can't happen when one Government can simply over reach and over rule the other Government using a court system that it has full legislative authority over. There's no room for working together, they've made sure of that.

[Hibrandenburg]

There had already been a delay because Humza announced one when he became FM. But you are just continuing with the blame game that I sincerely believe most voters couldn't care less about.

And what's this "false blame" nonsense? As I said at the outset, as a detached observer, it looks like a mess. Because it is a mess. And instead of fixing the mess, the two elected governments are bickering like pre-schoolers about who goes first for indoor playtime.

How about working together to fix it, rather than blaming each other for breaking it?

You've lost the plot, what effort have Westminster made to work together with the Scottish Government to fix the problem?

[Mibbes Aye]

You've lost the plot, what effort have Westminster made to work together with the Scottish Government to fix the problem?

Not enough, as far as I can see. Which is what I've said all along, if you care to read back.

Incidentally, how have I lost the plot? I don't think I have, I think I'm voicing the bewilderment that many ordinary punters feel looking at all this. But does the red mist descend for you if you feel the SNP are being criticised, even when it is crystal clear that both sides are being criticised?

It's glass bottles FFS. Listen to businesses, listen to Ecotricity and the other green groups and work together like adults, not bad-tempered bairns.

[He's here!]

Indeed. Just a Government put together by 84% of the British electorate that happen to reside in England in a FPTP system that effectively allows them to dictate over 99% of the decisions made. Real strong point you've put forward there.

I'm not putting forward a point, just stating a fact.

It's also a fact that the majority of the Scottish electorate prefer not to be governed solely from Holyrood. A majority I suspect will only grow once Labour sweep the boards at the next general election.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm not putting forward a point, just stating a fact.

It's also a fact that the majority of the Scottish electorate prefer not to be governed solely from Holyrood. A majority I suspect will only grow once Labour sweep the boards at the next general election.

Labour are not sweeping any boards at the next general election, because Labour has effectively been removed from the party under Keir Starmer. Even if the pro-brexit Keir Starmer Party do get a temporary bump in support in Scotland, it's not going to last when people are forced to face up to the fact that there's nothing about the Keir Starmer Party that aligns with Scotland's own political values.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not enough, as far as I can see. Which is what I've said all along, if you care to read back.

Incidentally, how have I lost the plot? I don't think I have, I think I'm voicing the bewilderment that many ordinary punters feel looking at all this. But does the red mist descend for you if you feel the SNP are being criticised, even when it is crystal clear that both sides are being criticised?

It's glass bottles FFS. Listen to businesses, listen to Ecotricity and the other green groups and work together like adults, not bad-tempered bairns.

So the UK government block a Scottish government initiative on recycling without putting forward any argumentation on how the scheme could be improved and somehow the Scottish Government are jointly to blame. You have lost the plot.

[degenerated]

Labour are not sweeping any boards at the next general election, because Labour has effectively been removed from the party under Keir Starmer. Even if the pro-brexit Keir Starmer Party do get a temporary bump in support in Scotland, it's not going to last when people are forced to face up to the fact that there's nothing about the Keir Starmer Party that aligns with Scotland's own political values.I think what he means is sweep the boards in England. So we should be happy that England will have chosen for a labour government to rule over us, whether we like it or not.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the message is that devolution only works if Scotland and England both vote Labour. It’s not really devolution then though is it?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

I think what he means is sweep the boards in England. So we should be happy that England will have chosen for a labour government to rule over us, whether we like it or not.

It won't even be a Labour Government though, so it's pointless even referring to them as Labour. The Conservatives on here know that it won't be a Labour Government which is why they're so excited over the prospects of Keir Starmer being the next PM. They know as long as he's answering to the same crooks in 55 Tufton Street, it'll be business as usual.

[Mibbes Aye]

So the UK government block a Scottish government initiative on recycling without putting forward any argumentation on how the scheme could be improved and somehow the Scottish Government are jointly to blame. You have lost the plot.


I'm still not sure you read my posts - businesses are wanting consistence and commonalities around logos, bar codes, administration fees etc. why wasnt that taken into account? Why would someone deliberately ignore that?

There's a clear answer here. Both governments need to talk to each other to get an integrated scheme on the table or risk losing the confidence of business and the public. Both governments. Not my words incidentally, the words of Circularity Scotland.

Take the petty politics out of it and give the public a solution instead of sniping at each other on our time and our money.