SNP are lying b******s as well !

[WhileTheChief..]

Yeh, the FM salary is 140.5k.

What Murrell has been paid is less clear as his salary was stated in the party accounts up until 2013 then not listed for the next eight years. When it reappeared last year it was listed as circa 80k.

Before or after the secret-salary-top-up?!! :duck:

[grunt]

Before or after the secret-salary-top-up?!! :duck:Good point, MPs and MSPs should not be allowed second jobs.

https://news.sky.com/story/westminster-accounts-mps-earn-17-1m-on-top-of-their-salaries-since-the-last-election-with-tories-taking-15-4m-12758768


Westminster Accounts: MPs earn £17.1m on top of their salaries since the last election - with Tories taking £15.2m

[J-C]

Be much more than that. I'm sure the First Minister's salary alone is about £140k.

Not sure what Murrell was paid as Chief Executive but they'll be over £200,000 between the two of them. They'll be pretty well off.

I think this was my point, a couple with no kids and wages they had will be able to spend on pricey pots etc.

[Ozyhibby]

I think this was my point, a couple with no kids and wages they had will be able to spend on pricey pots etc.

Yes but it’s important to leave the impression they stole them.[emoji6]


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65373659

Why would it be proving so hard to find auditors willing to take this on? It's nearly eight months since the last ones closed the account.

And why would Blackford claim to have fully briefed Flynn in December when it turns out he knew nothing about the auditors quitting until February?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/connorgillies/status/1650484053932376064?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP membership on the rise.[emoji106]


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[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/connorgillies/status/1650484053932376064?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP membership on the rise.[emoji106]


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Who's going to believe that? Particularly if Blackford's got anything to do with it...

The SNP's civil war erupts in Westminster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-snp-in-westminster-turn-on-each-other/)

[Kato]

Who's going to believe that? Particularly if Blackford's got anything to do with it...

The SNP's civil war erupts in Westminster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-snp-in-westminster-turn-on-each-other/)Is it any more contentious than some of the stuff you post from The Express/Sunday Mail/Daily Mail?

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[Ozyhibby]

Who's going to believe that? Particularly if Blackford's got anything to do with it...

The SNP's civil war erupts in Westminster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-snp-in-westminster-turn-on-each-other/)

I believe it.[emoji106]


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[grunt]

I believe it.[emoji106]You're an SNP fanboy. You'll believe anything they put out.

[Since90+2]

Is it any more contentious than some of the stuff you post from The Express/Sunday Mail/Daily Mail?

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Exactly.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You're an SNP fanboy. You'll believe anything they put out.

How's "better together" coming along? How much better off are we compared to 9 years ago?

[Steven79]

How's "better together" coming along? How much better off are we compared to 9 years ago?[emoji1787]

We aren't getting an answer to that anytime soon...

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[Ozyhibby]

How's "better together" coming along? How much better off are we compared to 9 years ago?

The better together and brexit crew don’t really care about that. It’s all union flags and Rule Britannia.


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[grunt]

How's "better together" coming along? How much better off are we compared to 9 years ago?You're new here, aren't you?

[WhileTheChief..]

https://twitter.com/connorgillies/status/1650484053932376064?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

SNP membership on the rise.[emoji106]


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There was some chat on Newsnight or Sky about the membership numbers since 2014.

Part of the discussion was that a lot of the newer members were the ones that were responsible for the shift more towards the green agenda and identity politics stuff.

It was never front and central under Salmond, and whilst I appreciate the world has moved on since then, do you think there is any merit in the above view?

Is there maybe a group of SNP members that are the similar to how Momemtun influenced Labour re Corbyn? Yousaf would do well to avoid that path as best as possible.

Listening to Salmond and McKaskill's recent interviews, Alba seem to be talking a lot of sense.

I used they think they were the radical ones but I'm now wondering if there's is the more sensible approach than the SNPs.

[Smartie]

Who's going to believe that? Particularly if Blackford's got anything to do with it...

The SNP's civil war erupts in Westminster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-snp-in-westminster-turn-on-each-other/)

Don't you think there's a possibility that recent events - tent in the Murrells' garden, spurious headlines in the papers for weeks and a few arrests - but with no charges brought - might lead to a bunker mentality and a defensive bounce amongst those who aren't inclined to believe all they read?

Or that some folk have actually been quietly disillusioned with the old guard, and a fresh start under a new leader might bring about a bounce in membership, even if he is perceived to be the continuity candidate?


I certainly found it easy to accept that membership numbers would have dropped off as Sturgeon and co started to pursue largely unpopular policies such as the gender bill.


Shooting Blackford the messenger may be your action of choice but an increase wouldn't be much of a surprise to me tbh. I've been trying to keep an open mind on it all but I can't pretend there isn't a bit of me that wants to fight their corner with them a part of me that had been getting pretty disillusioned.

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't you think there's a possibility that recent events - tent in the Murrells' garden, spurious headlines in the papers for weeks and a few arrests - but with no charges brought - might lead to a bunker mentality and a defensive bounce amongst those who aren't inclined to believe all they read?

Or that some folk have actually been quietly disillusioned with the old guard, and a fresh start under a new leader might bring about a bounce in membership, even if he is perceived to be the continuity candidate?


I certainly found it easy to accept that membership numbers would have dropped off as Sturgeon and co started to pursue largely unpopular policies such as the gender bill.


Shooting Blackford the messenger may be your action of choice but an increase wouldn't be much of a surprise to me tbh. I've been trying to keep an open mind on it all but I can't pretend there isn't a bit of me that wants to fight their corner with them a part of me that had been getting pretty disillusioned.

If the polls keep plummeting for the snp then I'd say no

[Smartie]

If the polls keep plummeting for the snp then I'd say no

Polls and memberships are different things though and might go in different directions.

Polls might be affected by the more whimsical deciding to take their vote elsewhere, not unreasonable.

I don't think it's unthinkable though that you might see a hardening of those already sympathetic under what could possibly be perceived to be an attack.

[Stairway 2 7]

Polls and memberships are different things though and might go in different directions.

Polls might be affected by the more whimsical deciding to take their vote elsewhere, not unreasonable.

I don't think it's unthinkable though that you might see a hardening of those already sympathetic under what could possibly be perceived to be an attack.

I hope so but I think 40% either side are hard yes or no, independence will happen or not on the 10%. SNP should put most of their energy into this group and I think they definitely haven't.

[He's here!]

Don't you think there's a possibility that recent events - tent in the Murrells' garden, spurious headlines in the papers for weeks and a few arrests - but with no charges brought - might lead to a bunker mentality and a defensive bounce amongst those who aren't inclined to believe all they read?

Or that some folk have actually been quietly disillusioned with the old guard, and a fresh start under a new leader might bring about a bounce in membership, even if he is perceived to be the continuity candidate?


I certainly found it easy to accept that membership numbers would have dropped off as Sturgeon and co started to pursue largely unpopular policies such as the gender bill.


Shooting Blackford the messenger may be your action of choice but an increase wouldn't be much of a surprise to me tbh. I've been trying to keep an open mind on it all but I can't pretend there isn't a bit of me that wants to fight their corner with them a part of me that had been getting pretty disillusioned.

If you read the links I posted you'll see that Blackford has nothing to do with the membership update. I'm just pointing out he's been called out as a liar by Flynn.

[grunt]

I hope so but I think 40% either side are hard yes or no, independence will happen or not on the 10%.
:confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

:confused:

Class maths whilst the bairn jumps over me. I was going to say 45% but then I thought have the polls not been further either way. I'm not sure, but it is probably 45% that won't change

[ronaldo7]

Who's going to believe that? Particularly if Blackford's got anything to do with it...

The SNP's civil war erupts in Westminster | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-snp-in-westminster-turn-on-each-other/)

It looks like the appetite for party numbers to be produced will continue for a while. Do you have any idea what the other political party numbers are in Scotland?

[grunt]

Class maths whilst the bairn jumps over me. I was going to say 45% but then I thought have the polls not been further either way. I'm not sure, but it is probably 45% that won't change
Think you're right here. Task for SNP is not only to target the 10% undecideds, but also to hold onto the 45% Yes voters they already have. This is what the current media / BT onslaught is about, IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

It looks like the appetite for party numbers to be produced will continue for a while. Do you have any idea what the other political party numbers are in Scotland?

I wonder if the Scottish Lib Dem’s even have as many members as the SNP has added in last couple of weeks?


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[Mr Grieves]

It looks like the appetite for party numbers to be produced will continue for a while. Do you have any idea what the other political party numbers are in Scotland?

Yesterday - Scottish Conservative chairman Craig Hoy claimed the SNP "is addicted to secrecy".

Today - The Scottish Conservatives told STV News it does not publish its membership figures.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/snp-membership-numbers-jump-by-more-than-2000-since-humza-yousaf-became-leader-party-says

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It looks like the appetite for party numbers to be produced will continue for a while. Do you have any idea what the other political party numbers are in Scotland?

Well not the tories, they're refusing to release theirs.

[Ozyhibby]

There was some chat on Newsnight or Sky about the membership numbers since 2014.

Part of the discussion was that a lot of the newer members were the ones that were responsible for the shift more towards the green agenda and identity politics stuff.

It was never front and central under Salmond, and whilst I appreciate the world has moved on since then, do you think there is any merit in the above view?

Is there maybe a group of SNP members that are the similar to how Momemtun influenced Labour re Corbyn? Yousaf would do well to avoid that path as best as possible.

Listening to Salmond and McKaskill's recent interviews, Alba seem to be talking a lot of sense.

I used they think they were the radical ones but I'm now wondering if there's is the more sensible approach than the SNPs.

I think there has been some members noisier than other in recent years pushing the party. That’s all very well but they are doing it as a form of short cut without taking the general public with them. There is only so far you can stretch that elastic band before it snaps back to the middle. I think we’ll see that over next couple of years. The party will be firmly back in the centre for the Scottish elections.

This happens in all parties imo.


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[ronaldo7]

I wonder if the Scottish Lib Dem’s even have as many members as the SNP has added in last couple of weeks?


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The Tories, whilst asking for full transparency of others, have refused to publish their numbers.

Any Labour peeps know what the Scottish numbers are?

The greens have 7646

[Mibbes Aye]

I think there has been some members noisier than other in recent years pushing the party. That’s all very well but they are doing it as a form of short cut without taking the general public with them. There is only so far you can stretch that elastic band before it snaps back to the middle. I think we’ll see that over next couple of years. The party will be firmly back in the centre for the Scottish elections.

This happens in all parties imo.


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You say some members but nearly half your membership just voted for someone who is against gay marriage and single mothers.

I think Sturgeon’s departure has lifted the veil on your membership and it is a lot less progressive than your party has admitted to.

[Santa Cruz]

You say some members but nearly half your membership just voted for someone who is against gay marriage and single mothers.

I think Sturgeon’s departure has lifted the veil on your membership and it is a lot less progressive than your party has admitted to.

I don't think it was half the SNP membership, was there not about 20,000 who didn't vote at all?

[Mibbes Aye]

The Tories, whilst asking for full transparency of others, have refused to publish their numbers.

Any Labour peeps know what the Scottish numbers are?

The greens have 7646

I guess that will be me then :greengrin

There’s a figure of 16,000 or thereabouts that I have seen. But I don’t think that includes affiliate members. If you are in a Labour-affiliated union you can choose to have your subs go to the union or to Labour. If your union subs go to the party you get a vote in internal party elections - leadership, NEC etc - and some other elements.

All the big unions are affiliated. What I am uncertain about is whether the sub to Labour is opt-in or opt-out. I think it used to be opt-out across the board but some may have changed. I think Unison switched to opt-in a few years back.

[degenerated]

I wonder if the Scottish Lib Dem’s even have as many members as the SNP has added in last couple of weeks?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'd be surprised if the conservatives even have that number.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't think it was half the SNP membership, was there not about 20,000 who didn't vote at all?

Fair point, I wonder if they just wanted Salmond back :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd be surprised if the conservatives even have that number.

You'd hope not. Although unfortunately members doesn't equate votes, so a descent proportion of mentalists vote for them up here

[ronaldo7]

I guess that will be me then :greengrin

There’s a figure of 16,000 or thereabouts that I have seen. But I don’t think that includes affiliate members. If you are in a Labour-affiliated union you can choose to have your subs go to the union or to Labour. If your union subs go to the party you get a vote in internal party elections - leadership, NEC etc - and some other elements.

All the big unions are affiliated. What I am uncertain about is whether the sub to Labour is opt-in or opt-out. I think it used to be opt-out across the board but some may have changed. I think Unison switched to opt-in a few years back.

I saw that figure a while back when Corbyn had folk swarming to the party in England, not so much here.

It'd be nice if the branch office could update the press. 😆

Cheers anyway. 👍

Edit

Heard some numbers last night.
Red branch office 7000
Blue branch office 3000
Orange branch office in the hundreds.

[Ozyhibby]

You say some members but nearly half your membership just voted for someone who is against gay marriage and single mothers.

I think Sturgeon’s departure has lifted the veil on your membership and it is a lot less progressive than your party has admitted to.

I don’t think she ever said she was against single mothers? I’m pretty sure she said it was a choice she had not made. Clumsy wording but I don’t think anyone seriously thinks she wants to outlaw it? And the same with gay marriage. She was very clear she would 100% protect gay marriage as a right.
It’s fun for opponents to characterise her that way but most people can see through it.
It’s like calling Starmer a Tory. Everyone knows he’s not but because he copies them a lot it gives an easy target.
It’s all knockabout stuff though so go for it.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I don’t think she ever said she was against single mothers? I’m pretty sure she said it was a choice she had not made. Clumsy wording but I don’t think anyone seriously thinks she wants to outlaw it? And the same with gay marriage. She was very clear she would 100% protect gay marriage as a right.
It’s fun for opponents to characterise her that way but most people can see through it.
It’s like calling Starmer a Tory. Everyone knows he’s not but because he copies them a lot it gives an easy target.
It’s all knockabout stuff though so go for it.


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Yeah, I was careful with my wording. I believe she called having a child out of wedlock ‘wrong’ and said she would have voted against equal marriage. I think there was an element of having her cake and eating it by saying she would nevertheless uphold the law etc. You can’t really pitch for office by doing otherwise! But like you say, all in good spirit.

I think the key point I was making was about the membership though. I think the SNP likes to portray itself as young, vibrant and progressive. The reality is that the membership is heavily skewed to ABC1s, is 71% over-50s and nearly half of them are over-65s. The evidence base for a trend towards ageing and less socially liberal does exist but obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, and nor should age be treated as deterministic.

For whatever reason, half the party electorate did go with the small government, low tax candidate with personal views deemed by many to be socially illiberal. I think that is interesting in what it might say about the membership, far more than what it says about Kate Forbes.

[grunt]

Yeah, I was careful with my wording. I believe she called having a child out of wedlock ‘wrong’ and said she would have voted against equal marriage. I think there was an element of having her cake and eating it by saying she would nevertheless uphold the law etc. You can’t really pitch for office by doing otherwise! But like you say, all in good spirit.I'd be interested to hear what else you think she could have said in the circumstances.


For whatever reason, half the party electorate did go with the small government, low tax candidate with personal views deemed by many to be socially illiberal. I think that is interesting in what it might say about the membership, far more than what it says about Kate Forbes.Possibly that some members can differentiate between the personal and the professional when looking at a candidate?

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I was careful with my wording. I believe she called having a child out of wedlock ‘wrong’ and said she would have voted against equal marriage. I think there was an element of having her cake and eating it by saying she would nevertheless uphold the law etc. You can’t really pitch for office by doing otherwise! But like you say, all in good spirit.

I think the key point I was making was about the membership though. I think the SNP likes to portray itself as young, vibrant and progressive. The reality is that the membership is heavily skewed to ABC1s, is 71% over-50s and nearly half of them are over-65s. The evidence base for a trend towards ageing and less socially liberal does exist but obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, and nor should age be treated as deterministic.

For whatever reason, half the party electorate did go with the small government, low tax candidate with personal views deemed by many to be socially illiberal. I think that is interesting in what it might say about the membership, far more than what it says about Kate Forbes.

Is she for small government?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah, I was careful with my wording. I believe she called having a child out of wedlock ‘wrong’ and said she would have voted against equal marriage. I think there was an element of having her cake and eating it by saying she would nevertheless uphold the law etc. You can’t really pitch for office by doing otherwise! But like you say, all in good spirit.

I think the key point I was making was about the membership though. I think the SNP likes to portray itself as young, vibrant and progressive. The reality is that the membership is heavily skewed to ABC1s, is 71% over-50s and nearly half of them are over-65s. The evidence base for a trend towards ageing and less socially liberal does exist but obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, and nor should age be treated as deterministic.

For whatever reason, half the party electorate did go with the small government, low tax candidate with personal views deemed by many to be socially illiberal. I think that is interesting in what it might say about the membership, far more than what it says about Kate Forbes.

I find a lot of what you say about the SNP is taking nuggets changing and growing them then running with it. What is the make up of other parties or unions, you think it's minorities and the young. It's a fact younger people are more likely to vote snp and independence. I also believe most people that voted Forbes respect that Forbes repeatedly said she chooses to live her life one way, but doesn't force or tell people how to live their life on social choices.


The stuff about low tax small government is just made up, her ideas with common weal will show that but you'll not care I presume?

[Mibbes Aye]

I'd be interested to hear what else you think she could have said in the circumstances.


I made it clear in the following sentence :confused:

[ronaldo7]

Is she for small government?


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Is she low tax?

[grunt]

I made it clear in the following sentence :confused:You contradicted yourself in the following sentence.

[Mibbes Aye]

You contradicted yourself in the following sentence.

I said she had her cake and ate it. She knew that her principles didn’t stand up to scrutiny so she said she would bide by the law, as if somehow she had a choice.

[Mibbes Aye]

Is she for small government?


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Is she low tax?

I judge her on her words and actions and I would say yes, she is.

Her national economic strategy read like an application for the IMF. No mention of the public sector to any real extent but she does talk about making Scotland a “magnet for global private capital”.

When she laid out her multi-year spending review before she went off, it was huge spending cuts in the public sector, reduction of services, reduction of public sector staff, selling off public buildings and cutting or merging the non-departmental agencies of government. Nothing about tax rises, in fact the IFS modelled her numbers and said they didn’t budget for any increase in higher rate for at least four years. Even the Fraser of Allander Institute called it ‘stark’.

And let’s not forget her work on the Scottish Growth Commission. Proposing an effective cap on public debt of 50% of GDP, which would make it one of the lowest in the OECD. But reducing public borrowing not by increasing tax, especially tax on the wealthier, but by reducing public spending.

That’s all Tory playbook stuff. And that’s what a lot of your brethren voted for. In fairness maybe they didn’t know.

[grunt]

I said she had her cake and ate it. She knew that her principles didn’t stand up to scrutiny so she said she would bide by the law, as if somehow she had a choice.

You can be pretty disgusting when you want to be, can't you?

[Mibbes Aye]

You can be pretty disgusting when you want to be, can't you?

What are you on about? What is 'disgusting' about saying she knew her principles wouldn't stand up to scrutiny?

[WhileTheChief..]

I judge her on her words and actions and I would say yes, she is.

Her national economic strategy read like an application for the IMF. No mention of the public sector to any real extent but she does talk about making Scotland a “magnet for global private capital”.

When she laid out her multi-year spending review before she went off, it was huge spending cuts in the public sector, reduction of services, reduction of public sector staff, selling off public buildings and cutting or merging the non-departmental agencies of government. Nothing about tax rises, in fact the IFS modelled her numbers and said they didn’t budget for any increase in higher rate for at least four years. Even the Fraser of Allander Institute called it ‘stark’.

And let’s not forget her work on the Scottish Growth Commission. Proposing an effective cap on public debt of 50% of GDP, which would make it one of the lowest in the OECD. But reducing public borrowing not by increasing tax, especially tax on the wealthier, but by reducing public spending.

That’s all Tory playbook stuff. And that’s what a lot of your brethren voted for. In fairness maybe they didn’t know.

I really, really hope she replaces Yousaf and starts to press ahead with all of the above. Fantastic.

[147lothian]

Why do the SNP wear white roses at Parliament? Is it gesture-politicking or does it have a deep and significant meaning?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why do the SNP wear white roses at Parliament? Is it gesture-politicking or does it have a deep and significant meaning?

Possibly Rosa alba, the wild scottish rose

The white rose became a symbol of the Jacobite cause

[archie]

Why do the SNP wear white roses at Parliament? Is it gesture-politicking or does it have a deep and significant meaning?

From Hugh MacDairmid poem the Little White Rose.

[147lothian]

From Hugh MacDairmid poem the Little White Rose.

Surely not, Hugh McDarairid may have been been a co-founder of the National Party in Scotland in 1928 the predecessor of the SNP, but he was also a fascist who felt that a Nazi invasion of England was in Scotland's best interest.

I think quite a few founder members of the SNP in the 30's were fascist sympathizers but surely the modern SNP are not going to draw attention to this.

[Berwickhibby]

Surely not, Hugh McDarairid may have been been a co-founder of the National Party in Scotland in 1928 the predecessor of the SNP, but he was also a fascist who felt that a Nazi invasion of England was in Scotland's best interest.

I think quite a few founder members of the SNP in the 30's were fascist sympathizers but surely the modern SNP are not going to draw attention to this.

Stand by with your tin hat on…. Incoming defence and denial of the founders will be along shortly :faf::faf:

[Kato]

Stand by with your tin hat on…. Incoming defence and denial of the founders will be along shortly :faf::faf:You sure?

There have been a few mentions of those leanings on here.

Christopher Grieve had some talent but he was also a fascist prick.

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[Ozyhibby]

Stand by with your tin hat on…. Incoming defence and denial of the founders will be along shortly :faf::faf:

About as boring as who’s fault slavery was but crack on if it floats your boat. I prefer looking forward.


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[Kato]

About as boring as who’s fault slavery was but crack on if it floats your boat. I prefer looking forward.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI look forward to seeing a socialisty Labour Party.

Like what they had when I was nipper.

They built houses n'****, could run a railway and a power grid. Stuff that was highly practical for everyone.

What with them becoming totally different to their roots it's highly unlikely.

Liberals aren't exactly the bastion of powerful thinking they were in the past.

Republicans and Democrats in America literally exchanged places on the political spectrum at one point.

The SNP mirrored Irish and other European nationalist movements. Pre-holocaust Fascism had an allure and calling to arms for those with resentments and axes to grind. From my pov they were still rammed with weirdos up to the late 1970's when a few alternative, more practical voices started to be heard 21st century SNP is barely recognisable to the Ku Klux Kailyard types from the 30's. If you get a chance dip into MacDiarmids early political letters. A fevered crank.

Not many political parties have gone unchanged. Look at the Tories, at one point they thought it was their god given right to exploit the whole globe for the own personal gain - now its just a few islands off the west of Europe and the tiny ones here and there upon which they stash their loot and mess up the locals. I suppose it is global given they allow any old war crim, drug lord or Putin peeps to bank with them. Second British Empire that set-up. ******* cockroaches.

I'm not describing the voters of those parties btw, only the make-up of the front of house people. Before anyone goes bananas.

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[degenerated]

I look forward to seeing a socialisty Labour Party.

Like what they had when I was nipper.

They built houses n'****, could run a railway and a power grid. Stuff that was highly practical for everyone.

What with them becoming totally different to their roots it's highly unlikely.

Liberals aren't exactly the bastion of powerful thinking they were in the past.

Republicans and Democrats in America literally exchanged places on the political spectrum at one point.

The SNP mirrored Irish and other European nationalist movements. Pre-holocaust Fascism had an allure and calling to arms for those with resentments and axes to grind. From my pov they were still rammed with weirdos up to the late 1970's when a few alternative, more practical voices started to be heard 21st century SNP is barely recognisable to the Ku Klux Kailyard types from the 30's. If you get a chance dip into MacDiarmids early political letters. A fevered crank.

Not many political parties have gone unchanged. Look at the Tories, at one point they thought it was their god given right to exploit the whole globe for the own personal gain - now its just a few islands off the west of Europe and the tiny ones here and there upon which they stash their loot and mess up the locals. I suppose it is global given they allow any old war crim, drug lord or Putin peeps to bank with them. Second British Empire that set-up. ******* cockroaches.

I'm not describing the voters of those parties btw, only the make-up of the front of house people. Before anyone goes bananas.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkDid McDiarmid not stand for election for both the Nationalist party and the communist party. He got kicked out of nationalist party for being a commie and kicked out of communist party for being a nationalist.
He sounds like someone who has supported every political stance at some point or other.

None of which is relevant to the SNP today.

[archie]

Did McDiarmid not stand for election for both the Nationalist party and the communist party. He got kicked out of nationalist party for being a commie and kicked out of communist party for being a nationalist.
He sounds like someone who has supported every political stance at some point or other.

None of which is relevant to the SNP today.

I think he was a complex guy. But the SNP does make it relevant with the white rose stuff.

[Kato]

Did McDiarmid not stand for election for both the Nationalist party and the communist party. He got kicked out of nationalist party for being a commie and kicked out of communist party for being a nationalist.
He sounds like someone who has supported every political stance at some point or other.

None of which is relevant to the SNP today.Like quite a few writers from that era they followed political fashions/passions. No doubt he was an anti-English bigot though, a strand that stands out for me. A true commie wouldn't push that line at the time. He wasn't alone with that melting pot of views within the early SNP.

But let's face it though he saw himself as an intellectual, semi-permanently blootered out of his gourd on whisky most of the time (an almost de riguor sign of patriotism in Scotland back then), with a bigoted streak - an unhealthy combo.

The SNP should really have rebranded in the 80s but none of them had the smarts.

Some of his poyums are good from what I remember...


"Never call me British,
For it is far too near Brutish
and that is the difference between U and I."

Nah, maybe it's doggerel.

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[Kato]

I think he was a complex guy. But the SNP does make it relevant with the white rose stuff.You think fascism is relevant within the SNP today?

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[147lothian]

I think he was a complex guy. But the SNP does make it relevant with the white rose stuff.[/QUOTE]

According to George Galloway the SNP wanted a Nazi invasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9szHpDRpNQ

[McSwanky]

Somebody just quoted George Galloway. Close the thread.

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[archie]

You think fascism is relevant within the SNP today?

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No. But I think the White Rose and Arthur Donaldson stuff should be quietly binned.

[Kato]

No. But I think the White Rose and Arthur Donaldson stuff should be quietly binned.Well said.

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[Kato]

I think he was a complex guy. But the SNP does make it relevant with the white rose stuff.

According to George Galloway the SNP wanted a Nazi invasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9szHpDRpNQ[/QUOTE]The "SNP" at the time were some pish breeked dudes in bothys getting angrily zonked and angrily writing letters. Lucky if they had 200 people who supported the guff they came out with.

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[Ozyhibby]

Somebody just quoted George Galloway. Close the thread.

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[emoji23]


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[Mr Grieves]

The Tories, whilst asking for full transparency of others, have refused to publish their numbers.

Any Labour peeps know what the Scottish numbers are?

The greens have 7646

:dunno:

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1650776285327630336?t=gNpzM7c2E49nW5gOSNOyaA&s=19

"Scottish Labour, Scot Tories, and the Scottish Lib Dems can't crow about transparency if they are fundamentally unwilling to share their own membership figures

Do as I say, not what I do doesn't fly when you attack the opposition for failing to do something you yourself won't do"

"Doesn't matter if they're published in accounts, what matters is up-to-date figures as that is what they demand of the SNP."

"Pointless decision to not provide figures too, undermines the best attack line they have on the SNP at the moment which is that the current crisis is one of a failure of transparency

Doesn't hit as hard if you just ignore questions from journalists about your membership figures"

[ronaldo7]

:dunno:

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1650776285327630336?t=gNpzM7c2E49nW5gOSNOyaA&s=19

"Scottish Labour, Scot Tories, and the Scottish Lib Dems can't crow about transparency if they are fundamentally unwilling to share their own membership figures

Do as I say, not what I do doesn't fly when you attack the opposition for failing to do something you yourself won't do"

"Doesn't matter if they're published in accounts, what matters is up-to-date figures as that is what they demand of the SNP."

"Pointless decision to not provide figures too, undermines the best attack line they have on the SNP at the moment which is that the current crisis is one of a failure of transparency

Doesn't hit as hard if you just ignore questions from journalists about your membership figures"

I edited my response to MA who'd given an assumed number for the Red branch office.

The numbers I was quoted was Tories 3,000, Labour 7,000, and Lib dems in the hundreds.

The only way we'll get accurate figures is if the transparency asked of the SNP is reciprocated by the unionists.

[Smartie]

According to George Galloway the SNP wanted a Nazi invasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9szHpDRpNQThe "SNP" at the time were some pish breeked dudes in bothys getting angrily zonked and angrily writing letters. Lucky if they had 200 people who supported the guff they came out with.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

It's possible to agree with George Galloway about "then" but consider that the party may possibly have changed over the following three quarters of a century or so to the point where they're worth voting for.

There seems to be a real obsession with history and the past when it comes to putting a pro union argument forward. Lately we've had everything from slavery to the "tartan tories" stuff from the seventies and now this. A positive case for the future within the union would be most welcome instead of bickering about nonsense that is largely irrelevant. It's starting to feel a bit like Putin and his inane ramblings about the past to try to justify actions that are going to make the future bleaker for all around him.

[Santa Cruz]

I edited my response to MA who'd given an assumed number for the Red branch office.

The numbers I was quoted was Tories 3,000, Labour 7,000, and Lib dems in the hundreds.

The only way we'll get accurate figures is if the transparency asked of the SNP is reciprocated by the unionists.

The lack of transparency by the SNP led to the CEO resigning. I don't get the obsession with membership numbers, it doesn't equate to votes cast for any of the parties. I get this investigation is boring as...but seriously could that journalist not be concentrating on something more important right now that affects the entire country as opposed to a tiny % of party political members who have a higher degree of passion for politics than folk out there with nothing.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think he was a complex guy. But the SNP does make it relevant with the white rose stuff.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/archivists-garden/index-by-plant-name/white-rose-of-scotland-scots-rose-burnet-rose#:~:text=The%20Burnet%20Rose%20has%20become,li ttle%20white%20rose%20of%20Scotland.

Throughout Britain, Europe and Asia it is found on coastal sand dunes and limestone heath. Next to the thistle, Rosa spinosissima is probably our most emblematic native plant. It has been used as a Scottish emblem since Charles Edward Stuart or 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' (1720-1788) and may have been the source of the Jacobite white cockade.


The poem celebrates the white rose of Scotland, not fascism.

[He's here!]

I edited my response to MA who'd given an assumed number for the Red branch office.

The numbers I was quoted was Tories 3,000, Labour 7,000, and Lib dems in the hundreds.

The only way we'll get accurate figures is if the transparency asked of the SNP is reciprocated by the unionists.

The only way to get accurate figures is surely by releasing accurate figures, not by pretending they're 30-40k higher than they are, accusing the media of lying about the numbers then eventually having to come clean only when pressed by your own MSPs.

The only reason anyone's remotely bothered about this is because of the fanfare the SNP create around party membership numbers (bit like the yams and their obsession with size). Otherwise I doubt it would attract much attention. Trying to gain mileage by pointing out how much bigger their numbers are than the other parties is comfort blanket stuff.

After what's happened I'm actually surprised the SNP are still trying to big the numbers thing up. Who's going to believe anything they say now?

[ronaldo7]

The lack of transparency by the SNP led to the CEO resigning. I don't get the obsession with membership numbers, it doesn't equate to votes cast for any of the parties. I get this investigation is boring as...but seriously could that journalist not be concentrating on something more important right now that affects the entire country as opposed to a tiny % of party political members who have a higher degree of passion for politics than folk out there with nothing.

I agree.

The press rightfully investigated and ran to ground the situation of the SNP membership, but when other parties jumped on the bandwagon, they themselves should be squeaky clean on their branch numbers.

It's all a bit attendances at the fitba for me, so let's be having them, as the journalist is going to continue until he gets them, unless he's told otherwise.

I believe in 2021 when Sir Keir blagged his way to become leader of the Labour party, the numbers quoted leaving were 190,000

I'm sure it'll all die down in a couple of days unless the SNP numbers fall again.

[Ozyhibby]

The only way to get accurate figures is surely by releasing accurate figures, not by pretending they're 30-40k higher than they are, accusing the media of lying about the numbers then eventually having to come clean only when pressed by your own MSPs.

The only reason anyone's remotely bothered about this is because of the fanfare the SNP create around party membership numbers (bit like the yams and their obsession with size). Otherwise I doubt it would attract much attention. Trying to gain mileage by pointing out how much bigger their numbers are than the other parties is comfort blanket stuff.

After what's happened I'm actually surprised the SNP are still trying to big the numbers thing up. Who's going to believe anything they say now?

When did they lie about membership numbers?


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[archie]

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/archivists-garden/index-by-plant-name/white-rose-of-scotland-scots-rose-burnet-rose#:~:text=The%20Burnet%20Rose%20has%20become,li ttle%20white%20rose%20of%20Scotland.

Throughout Britain, Europe and Asia it is found on coastal sand dunes and limestone heath. Next to the thistle, Rosa spinosissima is probably our most emblematic native plant. It has been used as a Scottish emblem since Charles Edward Stuart or 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' (1720-1788) and may have been the source of the Jacobite white cockade.


The poem celebrates the white rose of Scotland, not fascism.

I'm sure that's true. But the author also wrote 'A plea for a Scottish Fascism' and 'A programme for a Scottish Fascism'. He also speculated that it would be better if the Germans won WW2. Now I think he was all over the place and could overlook a young man blowing with the political wind. Others are less forgiving. I guess the question is how comfortable are you with his early writings?

[archie]

When did they lie about membership numbers?


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It was in response to reports of dropping membership. The former Chief Exec gave Murray Foote the wrong numbers and he fed them to the press. It came out at the leadership election. Foote resigned as he had been put in a position where he lied.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sure that's true. But the author also wrote 'A plea for a Scottish Fascism' and 'A programme for a Scottish Fascism'. He also speculated that it would be better if the Germans won WW2. Now I think he was all over the place and could overlook a young man blowing with the political wind. Others are less forgiving. I guess the question is how comfortable are you with his early writings?

To be honest, I couldn't care less about mcdiarmid or what he said or wrote.

The scotch rose was a symbol of Scotland long before he wrote a 4 line poem about it.

The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want for my part
Only the little white rose of Scotland
That smells sharp and sweet—and breaks the heart.

There, I've quoted the poem, does that make me a fascist?

[Kato]

As an aside Gavin Bowd's "Fascist Scotland" is a good read.

One explanation he gives as to why fascism never really took hold here is that it had to carve out a new niche for bigotry in Scotland, in what was an already crowded market.

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[Ozyhibby]

To be honest, I couldn't care less about mcdiarmid or what he said or wrote.

The scotch rose was a symbol of Scotland long before he wrote a 4 line poem about it.

The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want for my part
Only the little white rose of Scotland
That smells sharp and sweet—and breaks the heart.

There, I've quoted the poem, does that make me a fascist?

Going around quoting poetry, your def for the watching.[emoji6]


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[He's here!]

When did they lie about membership numbers?


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I'm pretty sure you must already know the answer but...

SNP media chief Murray Foote resigns over membership dispute - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64993032)

Swiftly followed by Murrell's resignation.

[archie]

To be honest, I couldn't care less about mcdiarmid or what he said or wrote.

The scotch rose was a symbol of Scotland long before he wrote a 4 line poem about it.

The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want for my part
Only the little white rose of Scotland
That smells sharp and sweet—and breaks the heart.

There, I've quoted the poem, does that make me a fascist?

No. But if you look at Kato's posts you'll get a sense of the strength of feeling from someone who supports independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

No. But if you look at Kato's posts you'll get a sense of the strength of feeling from someone who supports independence.

That's one person's view.

Do you at least accept that the wearing of the white rose of Scotland has absolutely nothing to do with Hugh mcdiarmid or fascism and was a long standing symbol of Scotland for centuries before he wrote a poem about it?

[archie]

That's one person's view.

Do you at least accept that the wearing of the white rose of Scotland has absolutely nothing to do with Hugh mcdiarmid or fascism and was a long standing symbol of Scotland for centuries before he wrote a poem about it?

I think it is to do with MacDairmid https://www.thenational.scot/news/19294182.queens-speech-ian-blackford-snp-mps-wore-white-roses/

https://www.itv.com/news/2015-05-27/snp-mps-wear-white-rose-of-scotland-for-queens-speech

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it is to do with MacDairmid https://www.thenational.scot/news/19294182.queens-speech-ian-blackford-snp-mps-wore-white-roses/

https://www.itv.com/news/2015-05-27/snp-mps-wear-white-rose-of-scotland-for-queens-speech

That's up to you, but I know that history is on my side.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/archivists-garden/index-by-plant-name/white-rose-of-scotland-scots-rose-burnet-rose#:~:text=The%20Burnet%20Rose%20has%20become,li ttle%20white%20rose%20of%20Scotland.


Roses also have a long history as an emblem and are regularly seen in heraldry. For example the white rose is the plant badge of the Clan Keith which dates back to the time Malcolm II (died 1034) and the Battle of Barrie in 1010. David I (c.1080-1153) granted the family lands in Lothian in 1150. Later Robert the Bruce (1274-1329) granted the hereditary Marischal Earldom to Sir Robert Keith after the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.

https://www.fairfaxhouse.co.uk/articles/in-the-name-of-the-rose/#:~:text=As%20a%20symbol%20associated%20with,for%2 0the%20Jacobites%2C%20of%20legitimacy.

The White Rose is perhaps the most evocative and powerful of Jacobite symbols, a significance it retains even today. Wearing the White Rose or displaying it on personal possessions signified complete dedication to the Stuart cause, even unto death. For Catholic followers of Jacobitism the rose also possessed an intense religious importance as an emblem of the Virgin Mary. As a symbol associated with royalty the rose has a long history in both England and Scotland, where it is recorded as a Stuart royal symbol from the fifteenth century. White, meanwhile, is the colour of purity and, importantly for the Jacobites, of legitimacy.


It appears that only opponents of independence are seeing anything to do with fascism in the wearing of the white rose.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it is to do with MacDairmid https://www.thenational.scot/news/19294182.queens-speech-ian-blackford-snp-mps-wore-white-roses/

https://www.itv.com/news/2015-05-27/snp-mps-wear-white-rose-of-scotland-for-queens-speech

Carol Monaghan mp tagged Hugh MacDairmid in her tweet on wearing a white rose for the swearing in. I didn't know his past or if she did but very foolish

https://twitter.com/CMonaghanSNP/status/603501327470206976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E603501327470206976%7Ctwgr%5E 3c702b9c0ba42953f74e64b72c4d0d35043a3b31%7Ctwcon%5 Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2F2015-05-27%2Fsnp-mps-wear-white-rose-of-scotland-for-queens-speech

https://twitter.com/CMonaghanSNP/status/603501327470206976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E603501327470206976%7Ctwgr%5E 3c702b9c0ba42953f74e64b72c4d0d35043a3b31%7Ctwcon%5 Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2F2015-05-27%2Fsnp-mps-wear-white-rose-of-scotland-for-queens-speech

[Stairway 2 7]

That's up to you, but I know that history is on my side.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/archivists-garden/index-by-plant-name/white-rose-of-scotland-scots-rose-burnet-rose#:~:text=The%20Burnet%20Rose%20has%20become,li ttle%20white%20rose%20of%20Scotland.


Roses also have a long history as an emblem and are regularly seen in heraldry. For example the white rose is the plant badge of the Clan Keith which dates back to the time Malcolm II (died 1034) and the Battle of Barrie in 1010. David I (c.1080-1153) granted the family lands in Lothian in 1150. Later Robert the Bruce (1274-1329) granted the hereditary Marischal Earldom to Sir Robert Keith after the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.

https://www.fairfaxhouse.co.uk/articles/in-the-name-of-the-rose/#:~:text=As%20a%20symbol%20associated%20with,for%2 0the%20Jacobites%2C%20of%20legitimacy.

The White Rose is perhaps the most evocative and powerful of Jacobite symbols, a significance it retains even today. Wearing the White Rose or displaying it on personal possessions signified complete dedication to the Stuart cause, even unto death. For Catholic followers of Jacobitism the rose also possessed an intense religious importance as an emblem of the Virgin Mary. As a symbol associated with royalty the rose has a long history in both England and Scotland, where it is recorded as a Stuart royal symbol from the fifteenth century. White, meanwhile, is the colour of purity and, importantly for the Jacobites, of legitimacy.


It appears that only opponents of independence are seeing anything to do with fascism in the wearing of the white rose.

The national is hardly an opponent of independence, Carol Monaghan snp mp either.

[Stairway 2 7]

How could they buy a motor home without him the treasurer knowing about it. There is 80k for vehicle assets in the accounts he signed off.

BBCandrewkerr
·
The SNP’s former Treasurer Colin Beattie has told journalists that he “didn’t know” about the SNP’s motorhome. He was asked: “Did you know about the motorhome purchase and did you sign it off?” He replied: “No, I didn’t know about it.” Mr Beattie then walked away from the group

Video
https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1650827588959444992

[marinello59]

How could they buy a motor home without him the treasurer knowing about it. There is 80k for vehicle assets in the accounts he signed off.

BBCandrewkerr
·
The SNP’s former Treasurer Colin Beattie has told journalists that he “didn’t know” about the SNP’s motorhome. He was asked: “Did you know about the motorhome purchase and did you sign it off?” He replied: “No, I didn’t know about it.” Mr Beattie then walked away from the group

Video
https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1650827588959444992

Maybe that £80k related to another vehicle or vehicles?

[ehf]

After what's happened I'm actually surprised the SNP are still trying to big the numbers thing up. Who's going to believe anything they say now?

Straight out the Trump/Putin playbook.

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe that £80k related to another vehicle or vehicles?

I don't think so as that would mean the motorhome hasn't been put in the books. Does seem utterly bizarre he didn't know about it

[147lothian]

Stand by with your tin hat on…. Incoming defence and denial of the founders will be along shortly :faf::faf:

No tin hat required. The SNP were involved in some questionable activities before and during WW2 hardline supporters can't really defend or deny this they are much more likely to say er....er....er.... I look forward not back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOzf5XXftrU

[ronaldo7]

Maybe that £80k related to another vehicle or vehicles?

Obviously the one that Nicola is learning to drive in. If only the journos could run this to ground. 🚙

[archie]

That's up to you, but I know that history is on my side.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/archivists-garden/index-by-plant-name/white-rose-of-scotland-scots-rose-burnet-rose#:~:text=The%20Burnet%20Rose%20has%20become,li ttle%20white%20rose%20of%20Scotland.


Roses also have a long history as an emblem and are regularly seen in heraldry. For example the white rose is the plant badge of the Clan Keith which dates back to the time Malcolm II (died 1034) and the Battle of Barrie in 1010. David I (c.1080-1153) granted the family lands in Lothian in 1150. Later Robert the Bruce (1274-1329) granted the hereditary Marischal Earldom to Sir Robert Keith after the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.

https://www.fairfaxhouse.co.uk/articles/in-the-name-of-the-rose/#:~:text=As%20a%20symbol%20associated%20with,for%2 0the%20Jacobites%2C%20of%20legitimacy.

The White Rose is perhaps the most evocative and powerful of Jacobite symbols, a significance it retains even today. Wearing the White Rose or displaying it on personal possessions signified complete dedication to the Stuart cause, even unto death. For Catholic followers of Jacobitism the rose also possessed an intense religious importance as an emblem of the Virgin Mary. As a symbol associated with royalty the rose has a long history in both England and Scotland, where it is recorded as a Stuart royal symbol from the fifteenth century. White, meanwhile, is the colour of purity and, importantly for the Jacobites, of legitimacy.


It appears that only opponents of independence are seeing anything to do with fascism in the wearing of the white rose.

OK. I don't think the SNP has adopted the White Rose as a fascist emblem. That's just daft. But it is clearly linked, by the SNP, to Hugh Macdairmid. And he has written some questionable stuff along with the poem. That's the issue for some people.

[Moulin Yarns]

The national is hardly an opponent of independence, Carol Monaghan snp mp either.

Do either of them link the scotch white rose to fascism? I must have missed it!

[Stairway 2 7]

Do either of them link the scotch white rose to fascism? I must have missed it!

Eh she makes it clear she wore it due to a fascist. I believe its a poor move they should ignore him he was decades ago, certainly not tweet his name. I on the other hand believe SNP of today should be in anyway blamed or connected to him. Its like praising Trumps Republicans for Abraham Lincoln

[Moulin Yarns]

Eh she makes it clear she wore it due to a fascist. I believe its a poor move they should ignore him he was decades ago, certainly not tweet his name. I on the other hand believe SNP of today should be in anyway blamed or connected to him. Its like praising Trumps Republicans for Abraham Lincoln

I think you know that she used his name because of the poem and not his background.

Runrig has the monument to him on the cover of the album 'Amazing Things', should we decry Runrig as supporters of fascism??

[Stairway 2 7]

I think you know that she used his name because of the poem and not his background.

Runrig has the monument to him on the cover of the album 'Amazing Things', should we decry Runrig as supporters of fascism??

Of course she used his name because of his early work for snp and not for his fascism, I believe that is poor and the same with runrig. Most SNP supporters and myself were saying Starmer shouldn't have quoted Margaret Thatcher, not due to the quote but due to her other opinions.

Would you have a poem by Mussolini on your wall or a painting from Adolf, I think not regardless of their quality

[Ozyhibby]

This is like saying Labour are anti-Semitic just because they are in the middle of a civil war over the issue. Nobody really believes they are but it’s used by their opponents. It’s a bit boring to be honest.


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[Stairway 2 7]

This is like saying Labour are anti-Semitic just because they are in the middle of a civil war over the issue. Nobody really believes they are but it’s used by their opponents. It’s a bit boring to be honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Has everyone not said the SNP or the MPs aren't fascist in any way though, so not the same.

SNP today are obviously nothing to do with the party of almost a century ago. That said I wouldn't highlight a bigot from the past if I were any of them

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm sure that's true. But the author also wrote 'A plea for a Scottish Fascism' and 'A programme for a Scottish Fascism'. He also speculated that it would be better if the Germans won WW2. Now I think he was all over the place and could overlook a young man blowing with the political wind. Others are less forgiving. I guess the question is how comfortable are you with his early writings?

It's always funny when you unionists claim the SNP are historically fascist, conveniently forgetting that there were many Nazi sympathisers and admirers in the British establishment. The Royal family had them, the Labour Party had them and one particular Tory went on to establish the British Fascist Party.

As always the unionists want the SNP to be examined under the microscope forgetting what skeletons they have in their own cupboards.

[He's here!]

How could they buy a motor home without him the treasurer knowing about it. There is 80k for vehicle assets in the accounts he signed off.

BBCandrewkerr
·
The SNP’s former Treasurer Colin Beattie has told journalists that he “didn’t know” about the SNP’s motorhome. He was asked: “Did you know about the motorhome purchase and did you sign it off?” He replied: “No, I didn’t know about it.” Mr Beattie then walked away from the group

Video
https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1650827588959444992


Mind-boggling, not least the fact he seems so utterly ill-briefed to deal with such questions.

As you say, if the motor vehicles referred to in the report don't include the motor home, why hasn't it been put through the books?! Or is Beattie simply incompetent?

I note that further down this story the stand-off between Blackford and Flynn about who knew what and when about the auditors continues apace:

Former SNP treasurer 'didn't know' about motorhome - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65385825)

[He's here!]

Obviously the one that Nicola is learning to drive in. If only the journos could run this to ground. ��

Talking of whom, will she be following the beleaguered Beattie in showing face back at Holyrood any time soon?

[Kato]

It's always funny when you unionists claim the SNP are historically fascist, conveniently forgetting that there were many Nazi sympathisers and admirers in the British establishment. The Royal family had them, the Labour Party had them and one particular Tory went on to establish the British Fascist Party.

As always the unionists want the SNP to be examined under the microscope forgetting what skeletons they have in their own cupboards.

There was also more than one Tory who "liked" Hitler - also members of the aristocracy, press barons, members of the Royal Family.

All of those had way more sway than a bunch of jocks getting pished and writing poetry.

There was also a Tory/Aristocratic "Friends of Germany" group which was prominent. Rings a more recent treacherous bell.

Prince Charles Edward, Queen Vic's grandson joined the Nazi Party and the Brownshirts. His town of Coburg, the ancestral seat of the Hannoverian/Saxe Coburg/Windsor dynasty, became the first municipality in Germany with a Nazi mayor.

He also wore a stormtroopers uniform to Dode V's funeral.

Hitler made head of the German Red Cross which implemented the T4 programme murdering 200,000 disabled people in the name of eugenics.

A white rose pales a bit really.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

Talking of whom, will she be following the beleaguered Beattie in showing face back at Holyrood any time soon?

Doubt she’ll ever be back in Holyrood. A couple more weeks of staying out of reach of any questions and then she’ll stand down as an MSP.

I also doubt we’ll see her give any interviews or speeches anytime soon either.

She told everyone in the media / the country when she resigned as FM, that there was nothing in it, and there was no story to be found. That’s about as far from the truth as possible.

How can she possibly face the same media again?

No idea what the future holds for her, but it will be one completely outside of Scottish politics.

[Santa Cruz]

I don't think so as that would mean the motorhome hasn't been put in the books. Does seem utterly bizarre he didn't know about it

Maybe he wasn't the treasurer at the time, the one who resigned said he wasn't given access to the accounts. This is not my theory, I put my hands up to having read it in the comments section of the herald.

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe he wasn't the treasurer at the time, the one who resigned said he wasn't given access to the accounts. This is not my theory, I put my hands up to having read it in the comments section of the herald.

I'm not sure but he did sign off the 2021 accounts where the 80k of vehicles were in the accounts, so he certainly should have known about it. He might clarify later

[Smartie]

Doubt she’ll ever be back in Holyrood. A couple more weeks of staying out of reach of any questions and then she’ll stand down as an MSP.

I also doubt we’ll see her give any interviews or speeches anytime soon either.

She told everyone in the media / the country when she resigned as FM, that there was nothing in it, and there was no story to be found. That’s about as far from the truth as possible.

How can she possibly face the same media again?

No idea what the future holds for her, but it will be one completely outside of Scottish politics.

A lot of the above will depend on exactly what "the story" turns out to be.

[grunt]

She told everyone in the media / the country when she resigned as FM, that there was nothing in it, and there was no story to be found. That’s about as far from the truth as possible.
I wish you would tell me what the truth is here, as I don't have a Scooby about what's going on.

[grunt]

I'm not sure but he did sign off the 2021 accounts where the 80k of vehicles were in the accounts, so he certainly should have known about it. He might clarify laterDo the accounts say that the £80k relates to the motor home?

[ronaldo7]

Talking of whom, will she be following the beleaguered Beattie in showing face back at Holyrood any time soon?

Your guess is as good as mine, actually no, you're guess is better than mine, you've practiced it more. 😉

[Stairway 2 7]

Do the accounts say that the £80k relates to the motor home?

No motor vehicles.

[archie]

It's always funny when you unionists claim the SNP are historically fascist, conveniently forgetting that there were many Nazi sympathisers and admirers in the British establishment. The Royal family had them, the Labour Party had them and one particular Tory went on to establish the British Fascist Party.

As always the unionists want the SNP to be examined under the microscope forgetting what skeletons they have in their own cupboards.

If you had followed the thread I said he was complex. The issue isn't the pre-war period but the highlighting of him now by the SNP. As to the establishment sympathies for the Nazis in the pre war period, I defy you to find anything that I have ever posted that has in any way tried to defend that.

[archie]

There was also more than one Tory who "liked" Hitler - also members of the aristocracy, press barons, members of the Royal Family.

All of those had way more sway than a bunch of jocks getting pished and writing poetry.

There was also a Tory/Aristocratic "Friends of Germany" group which was prominent. Rings a more recent treacherous bell.

Prince Charles Edward, Queen Vic's grandson joined the Nazi Party and the Brownshirts. His town of Coburg, the ancestral seat of the Hannoverian/Saxe Coburg/Windsor dynasty, became the first municipality in Germany with a Nazi mayor.

He also wore a stormtroopers uniform to Dode V's funeral.

Hitler made head of the German Red Cross which implemented the T4 programme murdering 200,000 disabled people in the name of eugenics.

A white rose pales a bit really.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Sure. But you don't find the current royal family bigging up one of Victoria's 22 grandchildren.

[Santa Cruz]

Do the accounts say that the £80k relates to the motor home?

Another theory from a pretty adamant poster in the herald comments section is the motorhome is showing as a leased vehicle in the accounts. I don't understand accounting, I toil to sometimes understand my own finances, so no idea what this means really.

[grunt]

No motor vehicles.Yeah but that's just the standard wording. Purchase of a motor home would probably go into that category. I'm just pointing out that people are assuming the motor home is the vehicle that's in the accounts but it might not be. As with lots of other things, we just don't know.

[grunt]

Another theory from a pretty adamant poster in the herald comments section is the motorhome is showing as a leased vehicle in the accounts. I don't understand accounting, I toil to sometimes understand my own finances, so no idea what this means really.
There are no "leased vehicles" separately identified in the accounts. Either this poster has inside knowledge or they're guessing.

[Ozyhibby]

Talking of whom, will she be following the beleaguered Beattie in showing face back at Holyrood any time soon?

She is in parliament today?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

I note that further down this story the stand-off between Blackford and Flynn about who knew what and when about the auditors continues apace:

Former SNP treasurer 'didn't know' about motorhome - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65385825)

This one is a lovely wee subplot. At least one of them is lying. It seems like years ago rather than months ago when news of a challenge to Blackford as Westminster leader was being dismissed as wishful thinking.

[WhileTheChief..]

A lot of the above will depend on exactly what "the story" turns out to be.

I'm not so sure it really matters what the outcome is, however unfair that may sound.

The story is the here and now, and what we've all witnessed these last few weeks.

Assuming there has been nothing criminal or 'dodgy', the simple point about not having auditors, and not being able to appoint any, is a huge story in itself.

Blackford and Flynn arguing about who knew what, when - would have been a huge story if it happened when NS was in charge. With everything else going on, it's a little side show.

Blackford was on the news saying the accounts are fine and will 100% be filed and audited in time. I bet he's not so sure about that now.

The point i'm making is, if you think back to how firmly in control NS was the day before she announced her resignation, to where the SNP and NS are now, it's been a remarkable change.

The police wrapping up their enquiry without any charges or further arrests won't change anything.

[Santa Cruz]

There are no "leased vehicles" separately identified in the accounts. Either this poster has inside knowledge or they're guessing.

I don't want to post some random persons comments, goes into quite a lot of detail which you can view without a subscription. It may or may not make more sense to someone who understands accounts. Will warn you though if you don't already know the comments section in that paper is not objective in any way, full of political bias. I find it odd how unobjective people are when it comes to politics in Scotland. For me, you can chose a party which you would prefer to vote for, but it's fine to also criticise them on points you don't agree with. Seldom happens nowadays.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah but that's just the standard wording. Purchase of a motor home would probably go into that category. I'm just pointing out that people are assuming the motor home is the vehicle that's in the accounts but it might not be. As with lots of other things, we just don't know.

It might not be the motorhome but it will be far worse for the SNP if its not in the accounts, although I'm sure it is.

The is no vehicle assets in the previous accounts.

Here's the accounts where its listed

https://mobile.twitter.com/staylorish/status/1650832230564995078

Note 18 has no reference to the vehicle its weirdly lumped in with office equipment so you can't see what it was bought for. The fixed asset note and the depreciation policy both fail to note anything about motor vehicles, which is weird

https://mobile.twitter.com/kevmc2016/status/1650856380503404547

[grunt]

Assuming there has been nothing criminal or 'dodgy', the simple point about not having auditors, and not being able to appoint any, is a huge story in itself.How is this a "huge story"? Organisations change auditors all the time, and auditors will often step down as seems to have been the case here. We don't know if new auditors have been appointed and we don't know if the SNP has struggled to find some. It might be a story, but equally it might not.


The police wrapping up their enquiry without any charges or further arrests won't change anything.Well if this is the case, then "job done". The SNP (and possibly the wider independence movement?) destabilised by huge police and media operation regardless of whether any wrongdoing* has occurred.

*If it has, I'll be very disappointed.

[Moulin Yarns]

OK. I don't think the SNP has adopted the White Rose as a fascist emblem. That's just daft. But it is clearly linked, by the SNP, to Hugh Macdairmid. And he has written some questionable stuff along with the poem. That's the issue for some people.

You are the one who linked it to Hugh mcdiarmid on here, yesterday evening in response to a question about the wearing of the white rose. At the same time I was explaining the historical significance of the white rose in Jacobite history.

It's strange how the length of 'debate' about it has centred on the author of a poem rather than the actual history of the the white cockade.

[grunt]

Note 18 has no reference to the vehicle its weirdly lumped in with office equipment so you can't see what it was bought for. The fixed asset note and the depreciation policy both fail to note anything about motor vehicles, which is weird
Poor drafting and accounts checking by the auditors. Sack 'em.

[Stairway 2 7]

You are the one who linked it to Hugh mcdiarmid on here, yesterday evening in response to a question about the wearing of the white rose. At the same time I was explaining the historical significance of the white rose in Jacobite history.

It's strange how the length of 'debate' about it has centred on the author of a poem rather than the actual history of the the white cockade.

The national and one of the mps who actually wore it linked it to him. Its hardly a big deal and obviously snp of today aren't the least bit fascist

[grunt]

It might not be the motorhome but it will be far worse for the SNP if it's not in the accounts, although I'm sure it is. Depends when it was bought. Depends who owns it.

[Stairway 2 7]

How is this a "huge story"? Organisations change auditors all the time, and auditors will often step down as seems to have been the case here. We don't know if new auditors have been appointed and we don't know if the SNP has struggled to find some. It might be a story, but equally it might not.

Well if this is the case, then "job done". The SNP (and possibly the wider independence movement?) destabilised by huge police and media operation regardless of whether any wrongdoing* has occurred.

*If it has, I'll be very disappointed.

Beattie said today they hadn't. It is big news as they lost them in September Blackford said he found out the end of last year, Flynn February and Humza in March. They also have 35 days to find an auditor that they admit they are having difficulty getting, get them to audit accounts or they lose over £1 million.

[Stairway 2 7]

Depends when it was bought. Depends who owns it.

Humza said that the SNP bought it in January 2021. Chapman was treasurer when it was bought but left due to not getting access to financial information. Beattie signed off 2021 accounts

[Kato]

Sure. But you don't find the current royal family bigging up one of Victoria's 22 grandchildren.Of course they don't. They are way too busy with modern day objectionable stuff to look back at him.

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[Hibrandenburg]

A lot of the above will depend on exactly what "the story" turns out to be.

I don't think it's right and proper or even legal for her to make any statements at this time. But it's typical unionist behaviour to expect the independence side to either do things that they can't or that the unionists refuse to do themselves.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you had followed the thread I said he was complex. The issue isn't the pre-war period but the highlighting of him now by the SNP. As to the establishment sympathies for the Nazis in the pre war period, I defy you to find anything that I have ever posted that has in any way tried to defend that.

You've not, but you've not posted anything to highlight it either. :wink:

[marinello59]

The only way to get accurate figures is surely by releasing accurate figures, not by pretending they're 30-40k higher than they are, accusing the media of lying about the numbers then eventually having to come clean only when pressed by your own MSPs.

The only reason anyone's remotely bothered about this is because of the fanfare the SNP create around party membership numbers (bit like the yams and their obsession with size). Otherwise I doubt it would attract much attention. Trying to gain mileage by pointing out how much bigger their numbers are than the other parties is comfort blanket stuff.

After what's happened I'm actually surprised the SNP are still trying to big the numbers thing up. Who's going to believe anything they say now?

Unfortunately they were proved to have lied once. But there’s no need to publish the numbers now that they have regained the ability to count them in real time again, it’s internal party business, just as it is for all the other parties.
If they are withholding the size of the electorate from candidates in a leadership contest though, which the SNP did, that’s entirely different.

[marinello59]

I don't think it's right and proper or even legal for her to make any statements at this time. But it's typical unionist behaviour to expect the independence side to either do things that they can't or that the unionists refuse to do themselves.

It’s typical behaviour from many on both sides to an equal degree.

[grunt]

Beattie said today they hadn't. It is big news as they lost them in September Blackford said he found out the end of last year, Flynn February and Humza in March. They also have 35 days to find an auditor that they admit they are having difficulty getting, get them to audit accounts or they lose over £1 million.Is this what the police investigation is about? If they miss the deadline for having audited accounts is the £1m gone forever or just until they get the accounts done?


Humza said that the SNP bought it in January 2021. Chapman was treasurer when it was bought but left due to not getting access to financial information. Beattie signed off 2021 accountsAnything illegal here?

[grunt]

It’s typical behaviour from many on both sides to an equal degree.Very fine people on both sides?

[marinello59]

Very fine people on both sides?

Of course there is.

[grunt]

Of course there is.
Sorry, it was a relatively obscure Trump quote.

[He's here!]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/snp-nicola-sturgeon-holyrood-scottish-parliament-scottish-labour-b2326573.html?amp

I see Sturgeon has finally surfaced, describing the ongoing debacle as beyond her "worst nightmares".

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/snp-nicola-sturgeon-holyrood-scottish-parliament-scottish-labour-b2326573.html?amp

I see Sturgeon has finally surfaced, describing the ongoing debacle as beyond her "worst nightmares".

She actually said "I could not have anticipated in my worst nightmares what would have unfolded over the past few weeks.”

So she still isn't admitting to having expected this or for being the reason for her stepping down. Which admittedly I do find unconvincing.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is this what the police investigation is about? If they miss the deadline for having audited accounts is the £1m gone forever or just until they get the accounts done?

Anything illegal here?

I think they can lose them. There have been lots of other parties that have got extentions I'd read. I would bet the tories would try and influence that not happening though.

I'm no expert but I don't think anything illegal has happened, I'd bet that the vehicle in the accounts is the motorhome. I think the more likely thing is Murrell has been doing too much himself and ruling the party as his own. I believe Humza ect when they say they didn't know about a number of things. Its all getting a bit boring for me. Even if their is proven corruption or mismanagement its probably just due to one person and not the party

[He's here!]

I think they can lose them. There have been lots of other parties that have got extentions I'd read. I would bet the tories would try and influence that not happening though.

I'm no expert but I don't think anything illegal has happened, I'd bet that the vehicle in the accounts is the motorhome. I think the more likely thing is Murrell has been doing too much himself and ruling the party as his own. I believe Humza ect when they say they didn't know about a number of things. Its all getting a bit boring for me. Even if their is proven corruption or mismanagement its probably just due to one person and not the party

Even if that were the case and the motor home is included in the accounts, what would it say about Beattie's competence? For a purchase of that nature to pass the party's treasurer by would seem extraordinary.

[marinello59]

Sorry, it was a relatively obscure Trump quote.

Ah… whoosh. :greengrin

[He's here!]

She actually said "I could not have anticipated in my worst nightmares what would have unfolded over the past few weeks.”

So she still isn't admitting to having expected this or for being the reason for her stepping down. Which admittedly I do find unconvincing.

Remarkable to hear her say she hasn't been spoken to by the police yet.

[marinello59]

I’ve said it before on this thread but at a human level I can only feel sympathy for the situation Nicola Sturgeon is facing right now. You can see the toll it has taken on her, she must be living in a nightmare.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Remarkable to hear her say she hasn't been spoken to by the police yet.

Well she says that, but we don't know if it's really true or not. It could also be that they're trying to build a case around her. Which would likely mean doing away with the small fish in order to get to the big fish.

[grunt]

Remarkable to hear her say she hasn't been spoken to by the police yet.
You expected her to lie?


Well she says that, but we don't know if it's really true or not. Oh you do expect her to lie!

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I’ve said it before on this thread but at a human level I can only feel sympathy for the situation Nicola Sturgeon is facing right now. You can see the toll it has taken on her, she must be living in a nightmare.

Depends if she's innocent or guilty as sin I suppose. Although in all likelihood it'll be somewhere in the middle.

[grunt]

Well she says that, but we don't know if it's really true or not. It could also be that they're trying to build a case around her. Which would likely mean doing away with the small fish in order to get to the big fish.CEO of the party and Treasurer are small fish? Ok.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’ve said it before on this thread but at a human level I can only feel sympathy for the situation Nicola Sturgeon is facing right now. You can see the toll it has taken on her, she must be living in a nightmare.

Agree. If no charges are brought there will be a political backlash.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

CEO of the party and Treasurer are small fish? Ok.

I doubt they're the only people the police have spoken to. Just because the media doesn't report on every single individual, doesn't mean that others haven't been questioned as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

Even if that were the case and the motor home is included in the accounts, what would it say about Beattie's competence? For a purchase of that nature to pass the party's treasurer by would seem extraordinary.

If he didn't know it would make him stupid for not asking for details in the accounts before signing. He and others are all saying they knew nothing about the motorhome, for a company that needed an 100k loan its certainly ridiculous that one could be purchased without clearing it with others.

[Just Alf]

Has everyone not said the SNP or the MPs aren't fascist in any way though, so not the same.

SNP today are obviously nothing to do with the party of almost a century ago. That said I wouldn't highlight a bigot from the past if I were any of themRe your 1st sentence, I sort of agree, but ( :greengrin ) someone brought it up for some reason?

[grunt]

I doubt they're the only people the police have spoken to. Just because the media doesn't report on every single individual, doesn't mean that others haven't been questioned as well.We'll have to agree to disagree. Given the rabid nature of reporting in this investigation, I think if the police questioned Nicola's goldfish it would be headline news.

[CropleyWasGod]

Reading all the posts today about Beattie.

I am not sure what his qualifications are for being Treasurer, but if he is a member of any accountancy body, I think he may be getting his collar felt.

He has been party to the approval of accounts which clearly show the acquisition of (a) vehicle(s) , which has been financed by the CEO, and which wasn't paid for through the party's bank account. If he hasn't asked the appropriate questions about that, he's incompetent.

If he is actually telling the truth, and it turns out that the vehicle(s) in the accounts are not the motor home, that opens up a completely new line of enquiry.

[He's here!]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Given the rabid nature of reporting in this investigation, I think if the police questioned Nicola's goldfish it would be headline news.

She's handed them their front page headlines for tomorrow on a plate with that 'worst nightmare' chat.

[Berwickhibby]

Beattie’s memory is coming back https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65385825?fbclid=IwAR043b5JrAXWxH8yf0koEeHC75vhBVvk RK6VEdU-RurF0PAYQhr-HZKHk8k personally I think he is full of ****

[He's here!]

This one is a lovely wee subplot. At least one of them is lying. It seems like years ago rather than months ago when news of a challenge to Blackford as Westminster leader was being dismissed as wishful thinking.

I'll concede that Flynn seems a more agreeable character than Blackford and appears to play things with a pretty straight bat. 'It's hard to get that image of the police tent out of your head' is a quote you can't imagine Blackford ever making and to state that the first he knew of the campervan 'was on the front page of a newspaper' is refreshingly honest. On that basis I'd believe his version of events re the auditors before that windbag Blackford.

[grunt]

She's handed them their front page headlines for tomorrow on a plate with that 'worst nightmare' chat.
What do you expect her to say, that she is enjoying it?

[He's here!]

Beattie’s memory is coming back https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65385825?fbclid=IwAR043b5JrAXWxH8yf0koEeHC75vhBVvk RK6VEdU-RurF0PAYQhr-HZKHk8k personally I think he is full of ****

Oh THAT campervan...

Uh huh.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65393718

No refunds, says Yousaf.

Might be tricky to 'unweave' the funds right enough...another 'ring-fenced' fundraiser might do it tho.

[147lothian]

OK. I don't think the SNP has adopted the White Rose as a fascist emblem. That's just daft. But it is clearly linked, by the SNP, to Hugh Macdiarmid. And he has written some questionable stuff along with the poem. That's the issue for some people.

Exactly, no one has claimed that the modern SNP is fascist in any way, shape or form, however many of the founding members of the SNP in the 1930's were involved in some very questionable activities before and during WW2, including Hugh MacDiarmid, who wrote "A plea for a Scottish Fascism" and a "Programme for a Scottish Fascism". Hugh MacDiarmid also felt that a Nazi invasion of England was "in Scotland's best interests". For this reason the modern SNP should quietly stop the wearing of the white rose in parliament.

https://thinkscotland.org/2022/05/the-white-rose-represents-what-exactly-fascism-scottish-exceptionalism-anglophobia/

[Moulin Yarns]

A final word on the white rose wearing.

I wish that they would wear the proper Rosa pimpinelafolia, a single rosette of petals rather than the floribunda rose they got from a florist.

[ronaldo7]

A final word on the white rose wearing.

I wish that they would wear the proper Rosa pimpinelafolia, a single rosette of petals rather than the floribunda rose they got from a florist.

In that case, it's nothing to do with McDairmid as he speaks of the former. 😆

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65397235

Some pretty good stuff in here. Hope it goes forward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65396233

Sounds like Blackford kept pretty much everyone in the dark re the auditors according to the story on the Herald front page. Not sure how long he can keep trying to shift the heat on to Flynn.

[He's here!]

https://archive.ph/qVFzT

Hadn't realised this was still dragging on.

[Smartie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65397235

Some pretty good stuff in here. Hope it goes forward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's interesting.

I know it's incredibly contentious here in Scotland, but I remember the subject of the uniquely Scottish "not proven" verdict coming up in the Netflix series version of "The Staircase". It was put forward as an excellent example of what can be done when a judge thinks someone is guilty but that there is insufficient evidence to prove it - possibly the only time I can remember anyone making a positive case for it's existence.

On balance - I think I accept that criminal justice is riddled with imperfection but at heart I think "innocent until proven guilty" is the way to go, and that muddying the waters doesn't really help anyone. Ultimately this is probably a good, and long overdue, move.

[Santa Cruz]

That's interesting.

I know it's incredibly contentious here in Scotland, but I remember the subject of the uniquely Scottish "not proven" verdict coming up in the Netflix series version of "The Staircase". It was put forward as an excellent example of what can be done when a judge thinks someone is guilty but that there is insufficient evidence to prove it - possibly the only time I can remember anyone making a positive case for it's existence.

On balance - I think I accept that criminal justice is riddled with imperfection but at heart I think "innocent until proven guilty" is the way to go, and that muddying the waters doesn't really help anyone. Ultimately this is probably a good, and long overdue, move.

I agree. Good post.

[Stairway 2 7]

Removing not proven will increase the amount of guilty verdicts its generally agreed. Maybe we do need more convictions but I'm not sure. Hopefully the review and decision won't be lead by politicians but by the justice system themselves

[Ozyhibby]

Removing not proven will increase the amount of guilty verdicts its generally agreed. Maybe we do need more convictions but I'm not sure. Hopefully the review and decision won't be lead by politicians but by the justice system themselves

I’ve no problem with more convictions but would prefer different sentencing with less prison used.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’ve no problem with more convictions but would prefer different sentencing with less prison used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Any conviction can ruin a life and future career. I'd definitely have less for minor things, but that is separate from this

[He's here!]

Who’s in charge and what are they in charge of? | RobinMcAlpine.org (http://robinmcalpine.org/whos-in-charge-and-what-are-they-in-charge-of/)

Much to agree with here.

[Since90+2]

That's interesting.

I know it's incredibly contentious here in Scotland, but I remember the subject of the uniquely Scottish "not proven" verdict coming up in the Netflix series version of "The Staircase". It was put forward as an excellent example of what can be done when a judge thinks someone is guilty but that there is insufficient evidence to prove it - possibly the only time I can remember anyone making a positive case for it's existence.

On balance - I think I accept that criminal justice is riddled with imperfection but at heart I think "innocent until proven guilty" is the way to go, and that muddying the waters doesn't really help anyone. Ultimately this is probably a good, and long overdue, move.

I respectively disagree with that.

Not proven, IMO , offered a safeguard to ensuring only those who we are almost certain beyond reasonable doubt are guilty.

It's a very fine balancing act, but my opinion is that the overall burden should fall on those doing that prosecution to prove someone is guilty, rather than a judge or jury going on a feeling or a gut instinct, which I think not proven protected against.

They'll be legal minds with far better inside into it than mine on the pros and cons, but that's my two tuppence worth

[ronaldo7]

I respectively disagree with that.

Not proven, IMO , offered a safeguard to ensuring only those who we are almost certain beyond reasonable doubt are guilty.

It's a very fine balancing act, but my opinion is that the overall burden should fall on those doing that prosecution to prove someone is guilty, rather than going on a feeling or a gut instinct, which I think not proven protected against.

They'll be legal minds with far better inside into it than mine on the pros and cons, but that's my two tuppence worth

I suppose a bit of balance to this is the reduction from 15 to 12 jurors, but still requiring 8 for a conviction. I'm sure amendments will be made as it passes through parliament where most parties are in agreement. We only need union jack to come up with some spurious reason why it affects England.

[archie]

I suppose a bit of balance to this is the reduction from 15 to 12 jurors, but still requiring 8 for a conviction. I'm sure amendments will be made as it passes through parliament where most parties are in agreement. We only need union jack to come up with some spurious reason why it affects England.

How would it affect the rest of the UK?

[He's here!]

I respectively disagree with that.

Not proven, IMO , offered a safeguard to ensuring only those who we are almost certain beyond reasonable doubt are guilty.

It's a very fine balancing act, but my opinion is that the overall burden should fall on those doing that prosecution to prove someone is guilty, rather than a judge or jury going on a feeling or a gut instinct, which I think not proven protected against.

They'll be legal minds with far better inside into it than mine on the pros and cons, but that's my two tuppence worth

I agree with you. As you say, a very fine line, but I think it's more than just a quirk of Scots Law.

[He's here!]

Ian Blackford's tantrum over SNP auditor enquiries | The Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ian-blackfords-tantrum-over-auditor-enquiries/)

This just gets better.

How dare you. How dare you.

[ronaldo7]

How would it affect the rest of the UK?

Not sure it does, it won't stop union jack trying to find something that does though.

Before you answer, it's Scots law...I know.😏

[Smartie]

I respectively disagree with that.

Not proven, IMO , offered a safeguard to ensuring only those who we are almost certain beyond reasonable doubt are guilty.

It's a very fine balancing act, but my opinion is that the overall burden should fall on those doing that prosecution to prove someone is guilty, rather than a judge or jury going on a feeling or a gut instinct, which I think not proven protected against.

They'll be legal minds with far better inside into it than mine on the pros and cons, but that's my two tuppence worth


I agree with you. As you say, a very fine line, but I think it's more than just a quirk of Scots Law.

Part of what makes me uncomfortable about it is the fact that it is unique to Scotland.

Rather than it being a historical legacy quirk that we have to either continue or abolish, do you believe that it's a good enough idea that every legal system in the world who don't employ it (ie all of them), should?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Exactly, no one has claimed that the modern SNP is fascist in any way, shape or form, however many of the founding members of the SNP in the 1930's were involved in some very questionable activities before and during WW2, including Hugh MacDiarmid, who wrote "A plea for a Scottish Fascism" and a "Programme for a Scottish Fascism". Hugh MacDiarmid also felt that a Nazi invasion of England was "in Scotland's best interests". For this reason the modern SNP should quietly stop the wearing of the white rose in parliament.

https://thinkscotland.org/2022/05/the-white-rose-represents-what-exactly-fascism-scottish-exceptionalism-anglophobia/

Winston Churchill also felt that a Nazi invasion of Scotland would somehow be in England's best interests if they simply allowed them to have Scotland. That was of course until he found out that the Nazi invasion was never going to stop at Scotland.

[He's here!]

How would it affect the rest of the UK?

It wouldn't. If anything it would align this aspect of Scots Law more with Engish Law.

[Berwickhibby]

Winston Churchill also felt that a Nazi invasion of Scotland would somehow be in England's best interests if they simply allowed them to have Scotland. That was of course until he found out that the Nazi invasion was never going to stop at Scotland.

You will to show me a link to that, as this is a first for me, I googled but could not find anything

[TrumpIsAPeado]

You will to show me a link to that, as this is a first for me, I googled but could not find anything

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20130324/282106339089564

[Kato]

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20130324/282106339089564"Our precious Union".

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20130324/282106339089564

No direct quotes or orders and some historian believes 🙄

[archie]

It is utter rubbish. Why on earth would Britain want to give Germany a foothold in Scotland to pummel the rest of the country? It would also surrender control of the north Atlantic and therefore the ability to ship material from the US and Canada. It stands up to no scrutiny whatsoever. But I know you won't believe me. Here's the author who was misquoted in the DM article https://gordon-barclay.net/blog/mythologies/mythologies-abandon-scotland/

[grunt]

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20130324/282106339089564


It was spread very widely by the prominent nationalist blogger Wings over Scotland ...:greengrin

[Since90+2]

Part of what makes me uncomfortable about it is the fact that it is unique to Scotland.

Rather than it being a historical legacy quirk that we have to either continue or abolish, do you believe that it's a good enough idea that every legal system in the world who don't employ it (ie all of them), should?

I don't know enough about other legals systems and their balances and checks to comment. They possibly have a higher threshold for original prosecution for example.

I just fundamentally believe that if it can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt almost to the point of someone being certain a person's guilt, then it should be a not proven ve verdict.

[archie]

"Our precious Union".

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Taking the Daily Mail as gospel are we?

[Berwickhibby]

It was spread very widely by the prominent nationalist blogger Wings over Scotland ...

If it came from that horrible parasite then I know it’s utter nonsense

[Kato]

Taking the Daily Mail as gospel are we?Yeah, we should stop that.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-cold-calls-auditors-as-accounts-deadline-looms-0lcpcpfxb

Is it strange that nobody wants to take on this job? Strikes me as unusual that thd party of government in Scotland would be reduced to cold calling auditors.

[greenlex]

Having been on the wrong end of a not proven verdict I can say without doubt it’s since then been a personal bugbear of mine.
I wasn’t guilty but had a devils own job proving that. Just as the prosecution could obviously not prove guilt on my part. I’ve since always thought that in some people’s eyes I was guilty. It really grates with me. Guilt should be proved. End off. Guilty or not guilty. Not proven is a cop out.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-cold-calls-auditors-as-accounts-deadline-looms-0lcpcpfxb

Is it strange that nobody wants to take on this job? Strikes me as unusual that thd party of government in Scotland would be reduced to cold calling auditors.

Given the policies of ICAS and ICAEW on confidentiality, I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of whoever leaked such an email, if it exists.

[Santa Cruz]

Having been on the wrong end of a not proven verdict I can say without doubt it’s since then been a personal bugbear of mine.
I wasn’t guilty but had a devils own job proving that. Just as the prosecution could obviously not prove guilt on my part. I’ve since always thought that in some people’s eyes I was guilty. It really grates with me. Guilt should be proved. End off. Guilty or not guilty. Not proven is a cop out.

Totally agree, What happened to you is one reason I'd support abolishing it, the other being the complainer has just went through the ordeal of a court trial with no outcome delivered one way or another. It seems like everyone involved is just left in limbo.

[archie]

Given the policies of ICAS and ICAEW on confidentiality, I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of whoever leaked such an email, if it exists.

Excuse my ignorance, but if unsolicited e mails are sent out, is there anything explicit as to the duties of the data controller of the organisation receiving them?

[CropleyWasGod]

Excuse my ignorance, but if unsolicited e mails are sent out, is there anything explicit as to the duties of the data controller of the organisation receiving them?

Confidentiality regarding clients, (current, past and potential) is at the heart of any CA practice. Nothing can be disclosed without their consent, or if forced by legal process.

[archie]

Confidentiality regarding clients, (current, past and potential) is at the heart of any CA practice. Nothing can be disclosed without their consent, or if forced by legal process.

Thanks.

[He's here!]

Confidentiality regarding clients, (current, past and potential) is at the heart of any CA practice. Nothing can be disclosed without their consent, or if forced by legal process.

Do you qualify as a potential client by sending a cold call email, even if the recipient has no interest in taking you on?

[Ozyhibby]

Do you qualify as a potential client by sending a cold call email, even if the recipient has no interest in taking you on?

I would think so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danhibees1875]

Do you qualify as a potential client by sending a cold call email, even if the recipient has no interest in taking you on?

Was it you that leaked the email? :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you qualify as a potential client by sending a cold call email, even if the recipient has no interest in taking you on?

Absolutely.

[Stairway 2 7]

Leak probably from the other end as there is a constant stream of stuff coming out from internal meetings ect

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcdouglasf/status/1651488752903114752?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Bit of good news.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/bbcdouglasf/status/1651488752903114752?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Bit of good news.[emoji106]
Gray shouldn't be in Osaka without a UK Government minder.

[He's here!]

That's interesting.

I know it's incredibly contentious here in Scotland, but I remember the subject of the uniquely Scottish "not proven" verdict coming up in the Netflix series version of "The Staircase". It was put forward as an excellent example of what can be done when a judge thinks someone is guilty but that there is insufficient evidence to prove it - possibly the only time I can remember anyone making a positive case for it's existence.

On balance - I think I accept that criminal justice is riddled with imperfection but at heart I think "innocent until proven guilty" is the way to go, and that muddying the waters doesn't really help anyone. Ultimately this is probably a good, and long overdue, move.

The Staircase lawyer David Rudolf backs not proven verdict - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46309751)

Rudolf actually reasons that if you were going to drop one verdict it would be not guilty.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuN1e5pXsAAdvT5?format=jpg&name=large

[147lothian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbbVSLJLIY

[ronaldo7]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuN1e5pXsAAdvT5?format=jpg&name=large

Jackie Bailey said it wouldn't work. Cheers Jackie. 🍻

[147lothian]

Humza explains why the SNP membership numbers are falling


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbbVSLJLIY

[Keith_M]

Any updates on the plates, cups, pots, pans, etc?

[ronaldo7]

Any updates on the plates, cups, pots, pans, etc?

We'll get a video on that soon enough. 😏

[Moulin Yarns]

Any updates on the plates, cups, pots, pans, etc?

Not sure about the plates and cups but we all needed to replace the pots and pans after beating the **** out of them every Thursday making a noise for the NHS.

[archie]

Not sure about the plates and cups but we all needed to replace the pots and pans after beating the **** out of them every Thursday making a noise for the NHS.:-)

[147lothian]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-cold-calls-auditors-as-accounts-deadline-looms-0lcpcpfxb

Is it strange that nobody wants to take on this job? Strikes me as unusual that thd party of government in Scotland would be reduced to cold calling auditors.

Why is it that the SNP can't get any financial company to audit their accounts?

[Glory Lurker]

Why is it that the SNP can't get any financial company to audit their accounts?

I don't know. Why is it that the SNP can't get any financial company to audit their accounts?

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/28/alex-salmond-interview-alba-scotland-nicola-sturgeon/

Salmond: I can't see SNP crisis being over by Christmas.

[Kato]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/28/alex-salmond-interview-alba-scotland-nicola-sturgeon/

Salmond: I can't see SNP crisis being over by Christmas.He's coming over WW1 jambo style.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Why is it that the SNP can't get any financial company to audit their accounts?

No doubt people with more direct experience of auditing firms will know better thn me, but in my indirect experience the big firms tend to have clear workplans for the short- to medium-term. I suspect many aren't sitting around, drumming their fingers, hoping someone will call them.

I also suspect that the SNP are in what some of us would call a seller's market. They don't want a service, they need a service and they need it sharpish. That likely means any firm with business sense can charge over the market rate.

If this does cost the party more, then I think they should do the decent thing and refund the equivalent amount to members. It's not their fault that their membership fees are propping up such a dysfunctional and dishonest regime.

[Skol]

I suspect given what’s been going on, any engagement might need to be quite a bit more in depth to ensure the full details are known and covered than if it was part of an ongoing engagement. Not something that can be done quickly unless lots of resource is thrown at it, which costs.

[He's here!]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/B378/production/_129544954_herbeebsatapril29-page-001.jpg


The Herald appears to have won some sort of appeal to have these papers released:

More questions for Yousaf over gay marriage vote and 'unavoidable' meeting (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/more-questions-yousaf-over-gay-063000945.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIZyo1q7XUF-D-NoYtFnNdeehI7DOh3hHP-I6fyojtqlh9jvgfZCJxlULr8lZ8PFLkMy4RtPKiVye7oMbELy_ 95NK76U0vQKluSXUZug1geGV7coIhnJwpW0jthhckOpkp0dlZd crsZp0alJlIIU-ynuRWHtPMXqN3Lbw1j-omQV)

[WhileTheChief..]

He must have known people would check up on his take on this. I doubt he'd be so daft as to make up a meeting didn't exist or to claim the family was begging for help if they hadn't been in touch.

He's screwed if the story turns out to be correct.

[Skol]

He must have known people would check up on his take on this. I doubt he'd be so daft as to make up a meeting didn't exist or to claim the family was begging for help if they hadn't been in touch.

He's screwed if the story turns out to be correct.

I doubt that he would have foreseen the current situation unfolding and the story he had concocted would mean he got away with this. I have no doubt he had the meeting and they probably discussed the topic he claims. However it seems pretty clear this was a meeting of. convenience and there just happened to be a reason he could make it sound legitimate. In his previous roles no one was interested. As first minister though it’s very different.

My view is that honesty is the best policy and to keep sticking to a story that has all the hallmarks of being a lie makes it worse than admitting what he did.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

My view is that honesty is the best policy

It isn't though. Which is why they all lie. Nobody truths their way into that position of power.

[Skol]

It isn't though. Which is why they all lie. Nobody truths their way into that position of power.

Yeah. True. That’s what I hate about our politicians when they dodge the truth. They even dodge easy questions just in case.

I still prefer honesty but it’s all to rare these days.

[Santa Cruz]

Yeah. True. That’s what I hate about our politicians when they dodge the truth. They even dodge easy questions just in case.

I still prefer honesty but it’s all to rare these days.

This Indy supporting satirist pretty much nails this with the very last word in his latest sketch. This is probably his funniest one in his series so far, all of them are on youtube. He goes over the many Indy Ref 2 strategies put to voters by NS over the years. He's no fan of the SNP, Labour, The Greens or the Tories, so I'm not sure which party he wants to run the country :greengrin He plays a charachter called Morag who is an uber NS fan.

I hesitated to post it when I first watched it as personally don't find any reference to the Care Home deaths dues to covid funny, it seems insensitive to me. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for the most part judging by the comments even Indy supporters could see the funny side of it.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1651516176378281985?cxt=HHwWgoC2ncvNrustAAAA

[He's here!]

Revealed: the SNP plot to oust Humza Yousaf (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b8d74a4e-e6ab-11ed-ad7b-c846b47f9f32?shareToken=4b3e8e2705cfb930ef2f061579 5ba4ee)

[He's here!]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu6f-TWXgAcEgXY?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu8oB8iXwAUUpDs?format=jpg&name=small

[JimBHibees]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu6f-TWXgAcEgXY?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu8oB8iXwAUUpDs?format=jpg&name=small

Your relentless I will give you that.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t buy these papers so thanks for sharing them on here.

[degenerated]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu6f-TWXgAcEgXY?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu8oB8iXwAUUpDs?format=jpg&name=smallSounds like they're getting a bit desperate now, it's all beginning to look very politically motivated now.

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t buy these papers so thanks for sharing them on here.

Nobody buys these papers anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[archie]

Nobody buys these papers anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

'Nobody'?

[Ozyhibby]

'Nobody'?

Sorry mr. Literal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Revealed: the SNP plot to oust Humza Yousaf (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b8d74a4e-e6ab-11ed-ad7b-c846b47f9f32?shareToken=4b3e8e2705cfb930ef2f061579 5ba4ee)

The article starts with:


Supporters of Kate Forbes are secretly organising a “shadow government” as part of preparations to launch a coup against Humza Yousaf.

If it's a secret, then how does The Times know about it? :hmmm:

It also states:


However, her key allies have been holding behind-closed-doors talks with MSPs and MPs with a view to making a move to oust the new first minister.

Behind closed doors? But open to journalists of The Times?

[archie]

Sorry mr. Literal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mr Accuracy!

[ronaldo7]

The article starts with:



If it's a secret, then how does The Times know about it? :hmmm:

It also states:



Behind closed doors? But open to journalists of The Times?

Kate's reply.

"I’d usually ignore articles with ‘sources’ purporting to speak for me & about me, but the latest ‘coup’ piece tonight is ridiculous. I’m busy enough - contributing to policy debates, supporting the party & working in the constituency, where there are no shortage of fine coos."

She then posts a picture of a highland coo.

Not sure what the media are trying to do with her at the moment. Possibly trying to build her up just now, so that if she ever goes for the leadership, they can say, we told you so.

[archie]

Kate's reply.

"I’d usually ignore articles with ‘sources’ purporting to speak for me & about me, but the latest ‘coup’ piece tonight is ridiculous. I’m busy enough - contributing to policy debates, supporting the party & working in the constituency, where there are no shortage of fine coos."

She then posts a picture of a highland coo.

Not sure what the media are trying to do with her at the moment. Possibly trying to build her up just now, so that if she ever goes for the leadership, they can say, we told you so.

I have no particular insights here, but given the amount of leaking to the media during the leadership contest, it not that strange that it could still be going on. The question is who is doing it? It could also be to undermine Forbes, by implying she is disloyal.

[147lothian]

Revealed: the SNP plot to oust Humza Yousaf (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b8d74a4e-e6ab-11ed-ad7b-c846b47f9f32?shareToken=4b3e8e2705cfb930ef2f061579 5ba4ee)

One thing is for sure Hollyrood would be a lot less entertaining if they do oust the Clown Prince.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqiqRTX6z2M

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I have no particular insights here, but given the amount of leaking to the media during the leadership contest, it not that strange that it could still be going on. The question is who is doing it? It could also be to undermine Forbes, by implying she is disloyal.

It'll be the same "unnamed source" that the British media always rely on when discussing "top secret affairs" within the SNP.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

One thing is for sure Hollyrood would be a lot less entertaining if they do oust the Clown Prince.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqiqRTX6z2M

A youtube channel with 200+ videos in the space of a year all about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Where do you find the time?

[ronaldo7]

I have no particular insights here, but given the amount of leaking to the media during the leadership contest, it not that strange that it could still be going on. The question is who is doing it? It could also be to undermine Forbes, by implying she is disloyal.

It could be many things as you've said, it could also be false and made up. The fact she's come out last night to say so should give us all a clue.

[Moulin Yarns]

One thing is for sure Hollyrood would be a lot less entertaining if they do oust the Clown Prince.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqiqRTX6z2M

Hollyrood?????? 🙄

[J-C]

Your relentless I will give you that.


Trawls through every press outlet till he finds his anti SNP headlines, I can't imagine being that desperate in life to spend my time doing these things.

[J-C]

Sorry mr. Literal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You should have said " nobody in their right mind"

[WhileTheChief..]

Trawls through every press outlet till he finds his anti SNP headlines, I can't imagine being that desperate in life to spend my time doing these things.

Do you say the same about the Tory and Labour threads on here? There’s endless links to articles in the Guardian, but I’ve never seen you complain about the folk who post them?

Are these posters also desperate?

[Ozyhibby]

You should have said " nobody in their right mind"

Fair point.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[J-C]

Do you say the same about the Tory and Labour threads on here? There’s endless links to articles in the Guardian, but I’ve never seen you complain about the folk who post them?

Are these posters also desperate?


Don't need to, the Labour thread is far too much bickering between a few usual suspects and the Tory thread everyone seems to have a go at them due to just being Tories.