SNP are lying b******s as well !

[ronaldo7]

I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

You're advocating that we stay in the UK, to be ruled by a party which England chooses (see 80 seat majority). My question re Wales was really about how they're dealing with devolution, and is it also affecting the people there. If 'Welsh' labour are not effective, I can see a surge of plaid cymru in the future.

[greenginger]

I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

[Mcbizz1998]

I’d imagine he got it from the fact you finished your post with a dig about how many years she’s been talking about another referendum.

Would you expect her to stand and say “aye barry, we’ll get dragged out of the EU after all the lies of the referendum and brexit vote” at that time? As for what happened to it, you surely weren’t expecting to be filling out your no vote the very next day? Whenever her ideally planned date for this was; she didn’t know about covid ahead of time, but it did happen, as did a number of other blockers. It will happen, so you will get your wish.

Your posts make you seem more ‘on edge’ than “amused” about all this.

Did you watch the video? Or just start typing? It was from 2017, she said she would call it for autumn 2018/spring 2019….. that never happened. What was the blocker? Covid? Lol.


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[ronaldo7]

I agree with that and that’s why I think it’s important we see proposals on this from the SNP to better inform the debate. The absence of this makes it very difficult.

I suspect this will lead to someone stating the union need to make their case in reply. They don’t really as we know what we get and how it works. However I do agree that the UK government could and should do more. Sadly the current incumbents are not going to and we are stuck with in my view poor governments in both Westminster and holyrood. The missed opportunity with boris at the helm is massive.


I've seen you post this line before, so will oblige. :wink:

We've no idea what the UK will become in the future. So many lies in the past doesn't fill me with confidence though.

[WeeRussell]

Did you watch the video? Or just start typing? It was from 2017, she said she would call it for autumn 2018/spring 2019….. that never happened. What was the blocker? Covid? Lol.


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Forgive me, I'm not as up on politics as you and many others, and my memory clearly isn't that sharp for going back 4 or 5 years.

Can you tell me if Boris and co told Nicola just to fire-on and let the people of Scotland decide their fate, and she just stalled (or kept dangling the carrot) for some reason?

I imagine at some point, Covid had an effect. But again, happy to stand corrected by those who know better.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

I got the same (although in my case it was after doing my SA). You can request it through your hmrc online account which will reassure you it's not a scam.

[Mcbizz1998]

Forgive me, I'm not as up on politics as you and many others, and my memory clearly isn't that sharp for going back 4 or 5 years.

Can you tell me if Boris and co told Nicola just to fire-on and let the people of Scotland decide their fate, and she just stalled (or kept dangling the carrot) for some reason?

I imagine at some point, Covid had an effect. But again, happy to stand corrected by those who know better.

She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.


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[JeMeSouviens]

There's no glass ceiling for the Conservatives in England and Wales, or if there is it is set at a very high level. In that context it's quite a tough gig for Starmer to catch and defeat them. But he seems to have kept Labour ahead for most of the last four months and that's presumably due to a mix of Johnson's crash and Starmer's relatively good performance.

Bit of a challenge then for Elsie that in the same context her nationalists cannot emulate Starmer's Labour with a poll bounce majority for independence. The Conservatives here absolutely do have a glass ceiling and they also offer virtually everything you could want to drive Scottish voters towards the idea of independence ranging from a crap Tory leader to a malign/incompetent government and a rag-tag Cabinet of fellow traveller idiots and bad faith actors.

My suspicion is that the Salmond and Sturgeon record in government of the last 14 years is slowly catching up with them and this is leading to a stalling in confidence about their statements on both another referendum and independence itself. The only thing protecting their poll numbers at the moment is the Conservative glass ceiling and Scottish Labour being stuck in third place and struggling to get visible and to carve out electoral ground of their own.

So perhaps the Scottish electorate does increasingly realise that the 'SNP are lying *******s as well!' but currently those electors feel they have nowhere else credible to go...

SNP got 47/41% last year. Or 45% in 2019 GE. Higher than Tories in UK btw.

I would suggest there is a Tory UK ceiling at about 45% - Johnson got 43 even with his new anti-immigration coalition and Thatcher only managed a high of 44. Thanks to Westminster's super duper system, that's all you need though. How unifying.

[He's here!]

You can also support indy without being a proud Scot. I don't think it's anything in particular to be proud of, tbh. It would just be another small European country if it functioned normally.

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

[lapsedhibee]

She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.


I remember some of the period you refer to and it was filled with senior English politicians claiming it would be illegal and/or immoral to hold another referendum. Javid when running for Tory leader memorably said he "wouldn't allow it". Wasn't Nandy at that time implying that Sturgeon, if she went ahead, should be dealt with like Catalonian rebels (ie prosecuted and jailed)? Not sure whether 'dithering' accurately describes the nature of the discourse at the time.

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

It’s a heavy price we pay for that Britishness when you look at the prosperity of our neighbours. For some, that’s a price worth paying. More and more people are taking a different view.


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[WeeRussell]

She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.


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I can only speak personally, but I for one, as a long-time independence supporter (far more pro-independence than pro SNP/Nicola Sturgeon etc) would undoubtedly prefer to see some sort of stability/hope/resolution regarding Ukraine before any campaigning or talk of referendums are ramped-up again. Some things simply are more important right now regardless of who is involved politically.

Do you think you and others would be understanding and welcoming if Ian Blackford stood-up and WAS calling for a referendum right now amongst all the debate and crisis-talk over Ukraine?

When you say 'fall for it'.. do you not think Indy supporters would prefer to have the referendum at a time they think they can win too? Don't get me wrong, I think we're already in a position that we THINK we can win.. but if your theory is that we can't win just now, why would we object to waiting a little longer?

I could easily be missing something but I find it quite unique that your main argument against the SNP is they are not calling a referendum quick enough, when all I've heard over the past few years from Douglas Ross, Boris Johnson and the other Tory/Unionist advocates are that it's not the time and Scottish people don't want another divisive referendum etc. Why are you so concerned about the timing of a referendum, if you don't mind me asking?

[One Day Soon]

SNP got 47/41% last year. Or 45% in 2019 GE. Higher than Tories in UK btw.

I would suggest there is a Tory UK ceiling at about 45% - Johnson got 43 even with his new anti-immigration coalition and Thatcher only managed a high of 44. Thanks to Westminster's super duper system, that's all you need though. How unifying.


I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

[WeeRussell]

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

I can't help thinking you must have stronger arguments than the above for being so anti-independence surely, HH?

"those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence" Who are these people? I've still never encountered them.

"many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK" I guess it depends on what you mean by different. We don't, as a country vote tory, and we didn't vote for Brexit for example?

"What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics" Okay, but a decision on independence is very much a political one. And if our argument was that we just want to be 'Scottish' and not 'British' regardless of politics, we'd be scorned at with quotes of 'Braveheart' and 'anti English'

"Governments come and go." They do, but they are most often Tory, and never the one Scotland votes for.

"the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder)" I won't entertain this with a retort about the traits of people like Boris and Jacob RM :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

I don't think I actually know anybody like that (although I accept from twitter zoomerati evidence that they exist).

For me, indy is about the chance to live in a smaller, reformed state, which I believe will improve the lives of those around me. And recently, add to get back into Europe to that. Most people in Britain don't want these things. A significant number of Scots like yourself don't either. But there is some hope that a majority might appear here in my lifetime to get it done. Hope so.

As to the "not so different" thing. Yes, that's true to an extent but it's also true about Ireland and I don't feel an iota different about my Irish friends and family than I do about my English friends and family.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

When the Tories came to power independence was polling at about 27%. It’s now at 50%. And you interpret that as the SNP not making progress against a Tory govt in Westminster?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

1. A rise in Lab support is a short term drag on Indy support.
2. Even with a determined push for a ref, it won't be agreed with UK in the short term. Managing that is going to be tricky. I wouldn't personally put money on a ref happening until after the next UK GE.
3. I don't think you should judge real life by social media. Yes there is an excitable nat wing on twitter but most of it left for Alba.
4. Other than that we've gone from 45/55 to 50/50 over NS' tenure. From 30ish to 50 over the 14 years.
5. We'll get there in the end.

[One Day Soon]

When the Tories came to power independence was polling at about 27%. It’s now at 50%. And you interpret that as the SNP not making progress against a Tory govt in Westminster?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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Did you just not read my posts or did you choose to deliberately try to gaslight by completely misrepresenting my points?

[WeeRussell]

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

I'm not saying your overall point is incorrect, but I gave up judging anything by social media a while back. In fact I pretty much gave up on social media altogether :greengrin (he says while typing on an online forum)

[One Day Soon]

1. A rise in Lab support is a short term drag on Indy support.
2. Even with a determined push for a ref, it won't be agreed with UK in the short term. Managing that is going to be tricky. I wouldn't personally put money on a ref happening until after the next UK GE.
3. I don't think you should judge real life by social media. Yes there is an excitable nat wing on twitter but most of it left for Alba.
4. Other than that we've gone from 45/55 to 50/50 over NS' tenure. From 30ish to 50 over the 14 years.
5. We'll get there in the end.


Again, my core point remains. Circumstances as propitious as they can be for raising support for independence and yet No remains stubbornly ahead. All the while the same negatives result in a Labour lead in the UK over a four month period. Why isn't Sturgeon getting Yes over the line in this context?

It's not the rise in Labour support being a short term drag on support for independence because No has been ahead in 21 of the last 30 polls on the subject going back to April '21 and its been tied in another 6. Yes has led in just 3. Yes was becalmed long before Johnson and Partygate kicked off in November '21.

[One Day Soon]

I'm not saying your overall point is incorrect, but I gave up judging anything by social media a while back. In fact I pretty much gave up on social media altogether :greengrin (he says while typing on an online forum)

Yes, there's definitely a lot to be said for avoiding social media and doomscrolling. And to be fair, taking social media as strong evidence for or against anything is far from definitive so I'm going to go right ahead and agree with you on that and concede the point there.

[JeMeSouviens]

Again, my core point remains. Circumstances as propitious as they can be for raising support for independence and yet No remains stubbornly ahead. All the while the same negatives result in a Labour lead in the UK over a four month period. Why isn't Sturgeon getting Yes over the line in this context?

It's not the rise in Labour support being a short term drag on support for independence because No has been ahead in 21 of the last 30 polls on the subject going back to April '21 and its been tied in another 6. Yes has led in just 3. Yes was becalmed long before Johnson and Partygate kicked off in November '21.

I don't accept this core point. Yes, Johnson is an utter ********. But a pandemic is probably about as propitious as it could get for Unionists. "Don't take risks, come and be safe in our big state in uncertain times". Yet even with that Yes support is stubbornly high and over the long term inexorably increasing.

[One Day Soon]

I don't accept this core point. Yes, Johnson is an utter ********. But a pandemic is probably about as propitious as it could get for Unionists. "Don't take risks, come and be safe in our big state in uncertain times". Yet even with that Yes support is stubbornly high and over the long term inexorably increasing.


What's the long term? Yes support is currently pretty much where was 8 years ago in the referendum.

A pandemic is as good for sitting governments as it is for the constitutional status quo. Yet Starmer's Labour is ahead of the government on a sustained basis, while Yes can't develop a lead. I'm not complaining BTW :greengrin.

[JeMeSouviens]

What's the long term? Yes support is currently pretty much where was 8 years ago in the referendum.

A pandemic is as good for sitting governments as it is for the constitutional status quo. Yet Starmer's Labour is ahead of the government on a sustained basis, while Yes can't develop a lead. I'm not complaining BTW :greengrin.

I'm not sure I'd be getting that excited, "sustained" for about 3 months and looks like it's tightening again already:

https://i.ibb.co/0GqRWgP/Screenshot-2022-03-11-at-15-17-46.png

The Tories will ditch Johnson if they actually think they're going to lose. Personally I'm desperate to see the back of him, regardless of how "propitious" or not he is. Makes my skin crawl.

[Skol]

Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

It’s definitely not a scam. Two others in my family have had these in recent years. If you do nothing you eventually get a cheque if you log in you get it paid to your bank within five days.

[Skol]

I've seen you post this line before, so will oblige. :wink:

We've no idea what the UK will become in the future. So many lies in the past doesn't fill me with confidence though.

Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

[CapitalGreen]

Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

Is that true of referendums though? Taking the Brexit referendum as an example, many people voted for Brexit based on where they felt the status quo of the UK within the EU was heading (increaded immigration, EU army, joining the Euro etc) rather than for any supposed benefits of Brexit.

[Skol]

Is that true of referendums though? Taking the Brexit referendum as an example, many people voted for Brexit based on where they felt the status quo of the UK within the EU was heading (increaded immigration, EU army, joining the Euro etc) rather than for any supposed benefits of Brexit.

I guess everyone will have their own reasons for any vote they make and there will be many reasons

Just done some quick calcs on the tax letter I have and am surprised by how little extra tax I have paid over and above had I been a uk tax payer. I had thought it would be more.

Thinking about the tax refund I reckon it might be connected to me claiming the wfh tax allowance which is did very close to the tax year end.. which remind me I need to claim it when I log in to get my refund paid to my bank. Just need to locate my government gateway details so I can login though

[CapitalGreen]

I guess everyone will have their own reasons for any vote they make and there will be many reasons

Just done some quick calcs on the tax letter I have and am surprised by how little extra tax I have paid over and above had I been a uk tax payer. I had thought it would be more.

Thinking about the tax refund I reckon it might be connected to me claiming the wfh tax allowance which is did very close to the tax year end.. which remind me I need to claim it when I log in to get my refund paid to my bank. Just need to locate my government gateway details so I can login though

I got the same letter for a refund around £70 too and also claim the WFH allowance so you could be right.

[Jones28]

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

I genuinely do think think there is more that unites than divides us with most of the UK, but I still feel that independence is the best route for Scotland. I have Scottish relatives that have lived in England, are English and I have too - my wife is half English.

In spite of that I would vote for independence tomorrow. The English establishment has lost its mind, and as such a significant proportion of the English electorate have too. You only have to look at the very recent stuff with the Ukrainian refugees if you want evidence of just how ****ed up the UK’s perception or foreigners is.

I find it repulsive.

[WeeRussell]

I genuinely do think think there is more that unites than divides us with most of the UK, but I still feel that independence is the best route for Scotland. I have Scottish relatives that have lived in England, are English and I have too - my wife is half English.

In spite of that I would vote for independence tomorrow. The English establishment has lost its mind, and as such a significant proportion of the English electorate have too. You only have to look at the very recent stuff with the Ukrainian refugees if you want evidence of just how ****ed up the UK’s perception or foreigners is.

I find it repulsive.

Good post - a lot of that applies to myself. I’m just not married 😂

[ronaldo7]

Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

Independence in Europe or staying with Little Britain. That'll do for me. Now we just need to get a bus and a painter. :aok:

The case for the Union...https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1502295684166438915 :thumbsup:

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s definitely not a scam. Two others in my family have had these in recent years. If you do nothing you eventually get a cheque if you log in you get it paid to your bank within five days.

Yeah. Most refunds are paid directly these days.

Be wary with your GG log-in though. There's a few scams around relating to them.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1502293996122607618 :aok:

[greenginger]

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1502293996122607618 :aok:


Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

[ronaldo7]

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

Glad you're onboard. 👍

[greenginger]

Glad you're onboard. 👍


Yep, your post has found its rightful place under this thread’s title. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Yep, your post has found its rightful place under this thread’s title. :greengrin

Better than the first post anyway. 👍😂

[Ozyhibby]

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

People in Ireland, Denmark, Norway etc appear to be weathering the storm better than Scotland. Why is that?


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[Jones28]

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

So just like every other government of similar size then? Like Ireland for example? Or Denmark?

[grunt]

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.
I wonder if you're going to wake up this morning and realise what a silly late night post this was.

[Callum_62]

So just like every other government of similar size then? Like Ireland for example? Or Denmark?Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

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[Jones28]

Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

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Oh yeah. Never mind, praise the union.

[Santa Cruz]

Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

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If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

[Ozyhibby]

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in

Article on that sort of stuff here. UK comes in at an impressive 13th although Scotland would likely be a bit below that if it was there. Most of our near neighbours are top 10 though.


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[Callum_62]

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.I'm sure you can dig that info out - I'm not Sir David Gray [emoji23]

Can you provide me an example of another country that is bound by the same political set up we have in the UK?

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[James310]

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

It's a fair point, all this we can be Denmark or Ireland risks turning into a meaningless slogan unless it's actually backed up with a plan that says here is where Scotland is today, here is where we want to get to and we will get to this place by doing X, Y and Z. I don't think I am wrong in saying everyone would like to see this?

[Ozyhibby]

It's a fair point, all this we can be Denmark or Ireland risks turning into a meaningless slogan unless it's actually backed up with a plan that says here is where Scotland is today, here is where we want to get to and we will get to this place by doing X, Y and Z. I don't think I am wrong in saying everyone would like to see this?

I’d like to see even an intention from the UK govt for us to get there, never mind an actual plan? Right now, all we are being told is ‘it’s impossible’.

It’s good to see an acknowledgement of the fact we are lagging behind though in our current set up.


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[Santa Cruz]

I'm sure you can dig that info out - I'm not Sir David Gray [emoji23]

Can you provide me an example of another country that is bound by the same political set up we have in the UK?

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No probs, just think if you and other posters are going to make continual comparisons with other similarly sized nations, you might make a more persuasive case by providing some stats to back it up.

Re: your 2nd question, why would I, what purpose does it serve? We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

[Santa Cruz]

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in

Article on that sort of stuff here. UK comes in at an impressive 13th although Scotland would likely be a bit below that if it was there. Most of our near neighbours are top 10 though.


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Ta.

[Jones28]

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

I will try to dig that out when I’m on my computer on Monday, but the article Ozy has shared is a brilliant insight in to this.

Norway has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, but their level of public service is phenomenal and wages as a whole are a lot higher. This article explains

https://frifagbevegelse.no/foreign-workers/norway-does-not-have-a-common-minimum-wage-for-all-workers-here-we-explain-why-6.539.832584.eb1e6e70f1

A cleaner in Norway can expect a minimum wage of £16 per hour, with extra payment outside conventional hours.

[He's here!]

I can't help thinking you must have stronger arguments than the above for being so anti-independence surely, HH?

"those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence" Who are these people? I've still never encountered them.

"many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK" I guess it depends on what you mean by different. We don't, as a country vote tory, and we didn't vote for Brexit for example?

"What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics" Okay, but a decision on independence is very much a political one. And if our argument was that we just want to be 'Scottish' and not 'British' regardless of politics, we'd be scorned at with quotes of 'Braveheart' and 'anti English'

"Governments come and go." They do, but they are most often Tory, and never the one Scotland votes for.

"the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder)" I won't entertain this with a retort about the traits of people like Boris and Jacob RM:greengrin

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

[Callum_62]

No probs, just think if you and other posters are going to make continual comparisons with other similarly sized nations, you might make a more persuasive case by providing some stats to back it up.

Re: your 2nd question, why would I, what purpose does it serve? We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

Have I made continual comparisons?

Anyway what would make Scotland so unique that it couldnt go along similar lines to other successful small Nations?

You don't think its odd that you can't name a similar set up outside the UK?

If it's the gold standard why isnt it mirrored elsewhere?

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[WeeRussell]

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

Absolutely is reasonable and I appreciate your honesty 👍 I was being genuine when questioning if you had other reasons, as I assumed you would likely have some political reasons for your choice as well as the above.

Why is it that your arguments are reasonable and honest stances but when someone from the independence side puts their part of the debate over, they’re attempting to school you?

Do you therefore, based on the above, concede that you don’t see any political reason for us to remain part of the union, should there be another political referendum, and you’d be voting purely because you prefer to be identify as British than Scottish?

[McSwanky]

We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

It's a fair point, but what bothers me is the terms the last referendum were fought on. e.g. more powers for Scotland (remember Gordon Brown?) , a 'choice' on EU membership.

The first never happened (and there seems to be pressure from the incumbent government to go the other way) and the second didn't feel like much of a choice to me.

Things have changed considerably (including the EU's attitude towards an independent Scotland) since 2014.

[Santa Cruz]

Have I made continual comparisons?

Anyway what would make Scotland so unique that it couldnt go along similar lines to other successful small Nations?

You don't think its odd that you can't name a similar set up outside the UK?

If it's the gold standard why isnt it mirrored elsewhere?

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I did add other posters...it's not the first time these comparisons have been made.

To my knowledge Scotland has a fairly lowish percentage of workers who pay any income tax, we also have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers. Add to that people who are dependent on welfare payments and that adds up to a fair amount of revenue paid out and not so much recouped via the employment sector.

I don't think it's odd, because it's not me that's questioning it. Who said it's a gold standard btw?

I'm interested in more detail. Thanks Jones28 (don't know how to multiquote) an easy to read breakdown would be useful. Ozy's link is easy for most to understand I would imagine, your average voter wants easy to read and understand stats to make quicker comparisons.

[Santa Cruz]

It's a fair point, but what bothers me is the terms the last referendum were fought on. e.g. more powers for Scotland (remember Gordon Brown?) , a 'choice' on EU membership.

The first never happened (and there seems to be pressure from the incumbent government to go the other way) and the second didn't feel like much of a choice to me.

Things have changed considerably (including the EU's attitude towards an independent Scotland) since 2014.

I understand that. The problem the SNP have with the EU argument being the main reason for another referendum is, a fair number of Labour and Tory voters, voted to remain, some of the Labour vote may still favour re-joining the EU over remaining in the UK. I don't see many Tory voters dong that. Also nearly a third of the leave voters are SNP voters and then there's the 30% who weren't even bothered enough to vote. On that basis I think they have a job on their hand making this the main reason to vote for Indy.

[Ozyhibby]

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take.
Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.


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[Callum_62]

I did add other posters...it's not the first time these comparisons have been made.

To my knowledge Scotland has a fairly lowish percentage of workers who pay any income tax, we also have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers. Add to that people who are dependent on welfare payments and that adds up to a fair amount of revenue paid out and not so much recouped via the employment sector.

I don't think it's odd, because it's not me that's questioning it. Who said it's a gold standard btw?

I'm interested in more detail. Thanks Jones28 (don't know how to multiquote) an easy to read breakdown would be useful. Ozy's link is easy for most to understand I would imagine, your average voter wants easy to read and understand stats to make quicker comparisons.

If its not the gold standard why would anyone vote for it to remain in place?

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[Santa Cruz]

If its not the gold standard why would anyone vote for it to remain in place?

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A multitude of reasons would be my guess.

[Skol]

I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take.
Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.


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I don’t feel particularly British and I am definitely Scottish first. I maybe feel more British when there is an olympics taking place but that’s it.

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.

I do find the position on the EU to be a new dynamic. I think we do 60% of our trade with the UK but we may be aiming to create a border that will make trade more difficult and then try to change the nature of our trading relationships. I also agree with an earlier poster that not all independence supporters see the EU as the way forward and if comes to the crunch there may be another big divide at that time.

[grunt]

I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take. Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.
It is an honest stance to take, you're right.

My issue is that in 2022 being British means you need to align yourself with the far right English Tory party who wants a low tax, low benefits, everyman-for-himself economy, a country where immigrants are not valued, where zero hours contracts prevail and workers' rights don't exist, where food standards and environmental standards are diminished, and there is no NHS. If that's the sort of country you want to live in, stick with the union.

That's not for me.

[ronaldo7]

It doesn't look like many of the British nationalists on here have been persuaded yet. Many of them seem happy enough with what they have. The Scottish Parliament being bypassed by the UkGov in devolved areas. That's ok though, as long as we feel British. Whatever the next referendum brings, a targeted approach to the waverers is where we'll win, along with the youth vote. This thread has really just highlighted in a few posts how the British nationalists feel about Scotland.

Where's your money tree.

Prove you can be as good as other small nations.

Whilst being accepting of the current regime in London.

When we win the pensioners, we win.

[grunt]

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.
You were posting at the same time as I was so I didn't see this.

I understand where you're coming from, but for the reasons stated in my previous post, I don't believe we are "better served being in the UK". The UK - or rather England - is lurching in a very unsavoury direction and we'll be far better served outside of it, IMO.

[ronaldo7]

I don’t feel particularly British and I am definitely Scottish first. I maybe feel more British when there is an olympics taking place but that’s it.

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.

I do find the position on the EU to be a new dynamic. I think we do 60% of our trade with the UK but we may be aiming to create a border that will make trade more difficult and then try to change the nature of our trading relationships. I also agree with an earlier poster that not all independence supporters see the EU as the way forward and if comes to the crunch there may be another big divide at that time.

Your second para. What's the evidence for this? Where are we being better served?

[Santa Cruz]

Quote from an old Private Eye article.

The whole way politics is conducted in Scotland has changed beyond recognition and anyone deluded into believing there is anything liberal or progressive about that should consider the case study of Blackford versus Kennedy. They might be reminded that other people’s Nationalisms invariably look more attractive from a safe distance. Charles Kennedy, the good man, died three weeks after losing his seat. The poison of the campaign did not kill him but it robbed him of peace and dignity in the last months of his life. Democratic politics need never be like that. As one of Charles’s staff, David Green, told the programme: ‘Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, that doesn’t make you a Quisling or a traitor… It just means you have a different viewpoint.’

[Skol]

It doesn't look like many of the British nationalists on here have been persuaded yet. Many of them seem happy enough with what they have. The Scottish Parliament being bypassed by the UkGov in devolved areas. That's ok though, as long as we feel British. Whatever the next referendum brings, a targeted approach to the waverers is where we'll win, along with the youth vote. This thread has really just highlighted in a few posts how the British nationalists feel about Scotland.

Where's your money tree.

Prove you can be as good as other small nations.

Whilst being accepting of the current regime in London.

When we win the pensioners, we win.

British nationalists is exactly why it’s impossible to have any sensible debate.

[ronaldo7]

British nationalists is exactly why it’s impossible to have any sensible debate.

Their really isn't anything wrong with it. Scottish nationalist, British nationalist. English nationalist, they're all used in the free British press.

What's wrong with it?

Go and have a look at the latest piece from David leask, a respected journalist. He's covering British nationalism in one of his pieces.

[Just Alf]

.....

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

The result of the forthcoming census will be a good indication of what people think, whether they identify as Scottish, British or something else is one of the questions.

[CapitalGreen]

Quote from an old Private Eye article.

The whole way politics is conducted in Scotland has changed beyond recognition and anyone deluded into believing there is anything liberal or progressive about that should consider the case study of Blackford versus Kennedy. They might be reminded that other people’s Nationalisms invariably look more attractive from a safe distance. Charles Kennedy, the good man, died three weeks after losing his seat. The poison of the campaign did not kill him but it robbed him of peace and dignity in the last months of his life. Democratic politics need never be like that. As one of Charles’s staff, David Green, told the programme: ‘Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, that doesn’t make you a Quisling or a traitor… It just means you have a different viewpoint.’




I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

[Moulin Yarns]

I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

It's a quote from the article?!

[CapitalGreen]

It's a quote from the article?!

I know it is, I’m just not sure of it’s relevance and why the part in bold has been highlighted during what has been a respectful debate unless someone felt they were being called a quisling or a traitor.

[He's here!]

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

[Jack]

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

Who has suggested there will be a SNP/Greens government in an independent Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

Lucky being part of the UK means we never have loathsome idiots running the country.[emoji849]


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[greenginger]

Lucky being part of the UK means we never have loathsome idiots running the country.[emoji849]


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I agree, but that does not mean we don’t have loathsome idiots running Scotland. :greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

Apologies, I'll try again. Didn't mean to cause any disrespect. This was the part that struck a chord with me.

Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, It just means you have a different viewpoint.’

[He's here!]

Absolutely is reasonable and I appreciate your honesty 👍 I was being genuine when questioning if you had other reasons, as I assumed you would likely have some political reasons for your choice as well as the above.

Why is it that your arguments are reasonable and honest stances but when someone from the independence side puts their part of the debate over, they’re attempting to school you?

Do you therefore, based on the above, concede that you don’t see any political reason for us to remain part of the union, should there be another political referendum, and you’d be voting purely because you prefer to be identify as British than Scottish?

Again with the yes, but...:wink:

Fair enough, all I meant was I'm just putting my point of view across and that view really is as straightforward as it appears.

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.

[grunt]

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.
So you'll be happy with the privatisation of the NHS then? Because that's what you'll get.

[Just Alf]

We're no longer in the EU but I still feel I'm part of the wider Europe and would class my self as European in certain circumstances.
I'm guessing if we're ever independent I'll still feel British as well.


With regards to any iScotland government my mum and dad will revert back to Labour and Tory so will cancel each other out and let in the snp! :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Who has suggested there will be a SNP/Greens government in an independent Scotland?

A constant refrain from the opposition supporters!! :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

Again with the yes, but...:wink:

Fair enough, all I meant was I'm just putting my point of view across and that view really is as straightforward as it appears.

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.

The raison d'etre of the SNP is self determination. The UK would still exist, it would just be all the poorer for it :wink:

[He's here!]

Their really isn't anything wrong with it. Scottish nationalist, British nationalist. English nationalist, they're all used in the free British press.

What's wrong with it?

Go and have a look at the latest piece from David leask, a respected journalist. He's covering British nationalism in one of his pieces.

I think it's fair to say that the phrase British nationalism conjures up associations with the BNP/extreme right. Not unreasonable to take exception to being described that way.

[ronaldo7]

I think it's fair to say that the phrase British nationalism conjures up associations with the BNP/extreme right. Not unreasonable to take exception to being described that way.

Not in the context of my post. Nothing from that could be construed to mean as much.

Maybe the poster just doesn't like being asked questions which have to be backed up.:dunno:

[Just Alf]

I think it's fair to say that the phrase British nationalism conjures up associations with the BNP/extreme right. Not unreasonable to take exception to being described that way.It's an interesting point....

So...

What does someone who supports the union as it is just now want to be called?

[Skol]

It's an interesting point....

So...

What does someone who supports the union as it is just now want to be called?

A proud Scot with a different view.

[Just Alf]

A proud Scot with a different view.That works!... but in terms of a wee discussion surely we can't be typing that out every time! :greengrin

[Skol]

No voter then :-)

Although I expect in the event of another referendum it will not be a yes no answer. Happy to be a remainer then

[Callum_62]

So its Nats vs proud Scots with a different view

[emoji106]

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[Just Alf]

No voter then :-)

Although I expect in the event of another referendum it will not be a yes no answer. Happy to be a remainer thenLol... I get where you're coming from... i seem to remember that using the word 'no' was an issue as it implied a form of negativity!


What's in a name... :-)
Johnson (and the Tories in general) are really good at trolling the snp in Westminster...
Every time they mention it, it's the Scottish NATIONALIST Party.

(Appears to really rip Blackfords knitting when it's brought up!)

:greengrin

[Callum_62]

Lol... I get where you're coming from... i seem to remember that using the word 'no' was an issue as it implied a form of negativity!


What's in a name... :-)
Johnson (and the Tories in general) are really good at trolling the snp in Westminster...
Every time they mention it, it's the Scottish NATIONALIST Party.

(Appears to really rip Blackfords knitting when it's brought up!)

:greengrinTo be fair getting any partys name right should be a given as showing a modicum of respect in the house

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[Bostonhibby]

To be fair getting any partys name right should be a given as showing a modicum of respect in the house

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkBozo Probably thinks Murray Ross is the leader of the Scotland Nationalistic Party.


He does like a good party, legal or otherwise.


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[Callum_62]

Bozo Probably thinks Murray Ross is the leader of the Scotland Nationalistic Party.


He does like a good party, legal or otherwise.


Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkWonder what would happen if Blackford started calling them the ****servatives

[emoji848]

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[Bostonhibby]

Wonder what would happen if Blackford started calling them the ****servatives

[emoji848]

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkNasty party seems to strike at a nerve down here.[emoji6]

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[ronaldo7]

A proud Scot with a different view.

😂

Now you're back on. Care to answer the questions on the thread asked of you. 👍

[Keith_M]

No voter then :-)

Although I expect in the event of another referendum it will not be a yes no answer. Happy to be a remainer then


How about 'Remoaners'?


:duck:





:greengrin

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/12/nicola-sturgeons-childish-attention-seeking-proves-scotland/

A hatchet job to some extent but I was bemused by her comments re a no fly zone and indeed the 'pardon' for alleged witches (of whom, as is pointed out, some 15% were men).

The dilution of her daily covid update platform does seem to have left her at a bit of a loose end.

[Callum_62]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/12/nicola-sturgeons-childish-attention-seeking-proves-scotland/

A hatchet job to some extent but I was bemused by her comments re a no fly zone and indeed the 'pardon' for alleged witches (of whom, as is pointed out, some 15% were men).

The dilution of her daily covid update platform does seem to have left her at a bit of a loose end.I can't read the whole article but ever since day one I've thought why are we publicly saying what we will and won't do?

Ruling out completely and publically a no fly zone - why?

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[WeeRussell]

Wonder what would happen if Blackford started calling them the ****servatives

[emoji848]

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I don’t know but I’m certainly going to start calling them that! 😂👍

[WeeRussell]

Again with the yes, but...:wink:

Fair enough, all I meant was I'm just putting my point of view across and that view really is as straightforward as it appears.

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.

Yes, but?

Again - why is it not okay when someone questions or challenges a view from the other side. Should it be end of debate every time you post?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/12/nicola-sturgeons-childish-attention-seeking-proves-scotland/

A hatchet job to some extent but I was bemused by her comments re a no fly zone and indeed the 'pardon' for alleged witches (of whom, as is pointed out, some 15% were men).

The dilution of her daily covid update platform does seem to have left her at a bit of a loose end.

Great headline. Scotland not ready for independence. Like we are children. Guess it’s how they think of us.
Next week’s telegraph article on how Nicola Sturgeon’s choice of shoes show Scotland is not ready for independence.


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[Bostonhibby]

Great headline. Scotland not ready for independence. Like we are children. Guess it’s how they think of us.
Next week’s telegraph article on how Nicola Sturgeon’s choice of shoes show Scotland is not ready for independence.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe telegraph, not like them to have slightly Conservative bias, or be part of the Nasty party gravy train.....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220313/d3b954690910d41426377682132404a7.jpg

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Next week’s telegraph article on how Nicola Sturgeon’s choice of shoes show Scotland is not ready for independence.


The Telegraph calling a politician childish while idolising that other politician with the toddler haircut. Such a rag.

[Kato]

The telegraph, not like them to have slightly Conservative bias, or be part of the Nasty party gravy train.....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220313/d3b954690910d41426377682132404a7.jpg

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkThis was when Boris Johnson was being paid £200,000 a year for a weekly column, in which he called the EU Nazis and blamed NATO for RU's invasion of Ukraine in 2014.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Bostonhibby]

This was when Boris Johnson was being paid £200,000 a year for a weekly column, in which he called the EU Nazis and blamed NATO for RU's invasion of Ukraine in 2014.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkAnd that's one of the more transparent features of his life...

Maybe one day we will find out about his aide free sessions with ledbedev and others in Perugia?

Russia, Russians, Russian money does seem to be a constant thread though. It seems the Conservative Friends of Russia group has been disbanded suddenly, a great shame when you consider one of the attendees was one Carrie Symonds when it was set up.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

And that's one of the more transparent features of his life...

Maybe one day we will find out about his aide free sessions with ledbedev and others in Perugia?

Russia, Russians, Russian money does seem to be a constant thread though. It seems the Conservative Friends of Russia group has been disbanded suddenly, a great shame when you consider one of the attendees was one Carrie Symonds when it was set up.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Now that that source of dirty cash has gone, he’ll need to find another. Coincidently, he’s off to Saudi Arabia this week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bostonhibby]

Now that that source of dirty cash has gone, he’ll need to find another. Coincidently, he’s off to Saudi Arabia this week.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkKeeps the ties with despotic undemocratic tyrants going then....

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Yes, but?

Again - why is it not okay when someone questions or challenges a view from the other side. Should it be end of debate every time you post?

Not at all. I respect your opinion and your right to question mine. It's just that on this particular question I don't really see further mileage in it. You asked if my primary basis for opposing independence was because I retain a strong British identity and I confirmed that was the case.

I guess that having spent a sizeable chunk of my life in various parts of the UK has shaped that identity, but I certainly feel that the melting pot of culture, geography, history, sport...you name it...forms a collective nation I'd be very sorry to no longer be part of. Politics runs a poor second in that respect and it depresses me the way things have polarised over the last decade. I wouldn't describe myself as a 'British nationalist', a 'Unionist' or indeed 'Tory' but because I have no interest in seeing the UK broken up it seems now to follow that I must be labelled as one or all of these things.

[Kato]

I wouldn't describe myself as a 'British nationalist', a 'Unionist' or indeed 'Tory' but because I have no interest in seeing the UK broken up it seems now to follow that I must be labelled as one or all of these things.

You're pretty fond of labels for others though, "odious", "loathsome" etc...argue the points if you don't want labelled.



...


Most of my English pals see themselves as English. The whole British thing being tainted with Empire and BNP type connections. They have no need for the British tag as its too convoluted a pose, they have their parliament in England serving England. That said they all hate the Tories anyway and when it boils down to it just see themselves as human beings rather than some chappy political label.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

Not at all. I respect your opinion and your right to question mine. It's just that on this particular question I don't really see further mileage in it. You asked if my primary basis for opposing independence was because I retain a strong British identity and I confirmed that was the case.

I guess that having spent a sizeable chunk of my life in various parts of the UK has shaped that identity, but I certainly feel that the melting pot of culture, geography, history, sport...you name it...forms a collective nation I'd be very sorry to no longer be part of. Politics runs a poor second in that respect and it depresses me the way things have polarised over the last decade. I wouldn't describe myself as a 'British nationalist', a 'Unionist' or indeed 'Tory' but because I have no interest in seeing the UK broken up it seems now to follow that I must be labelled as one or all of these things.That's a good explanation and makes a lot of sense, I've family with that view.

I'm actually interested in how you view Scots that think along the same lines that want to vote for independence as a result... often they get the braveheart thing thrown at them.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m comfy with people saying that they feel British and that’s why they don’t want Indy. What I find a little strange is that they don’t fight harder for more devolution of the economic levers that could help Scotland match the like of Denmark, Ireland, Norway, Iceland etc etc.
The current offer is stay British even though you will be a bit poorer than you could be, it’s worth it. I’m not sure how strong a case that is in the long run, especially as the next generation already feels less British.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

I certainly feel that the melting pot of culture, geography, history, sport...you name it...forms a collective nation I'd be very sorry to no longer be part of. Politics runs a poor second in that respect and it depresses me the way things have polarised over the last decade. I wouldn't describe myself as a 'British nationalist', a 'Unionist' or indeed 'Tory' but because I have no interest in seeing the UK broken up it seems now to follow that I must be labelled as one or all of these things.

:top marksAgree with all of this.

[greenginger]

Another SNP lying B*****d.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/ukraine-russia-war-as-public-supports-ukrainian-refugees-its-time-for-uk-government-to-deliver-angus-robertson-msp-3610894

Robertson claim Britain refused to take Jewish refugees in the 30’s before the Second World War.

Britain actually took 40,000 adults plus another 10,000 children on the kinder transport scheme.

That is a large proportion of the Jews who left mainland Europe, others going to US , South America , and Jordan.

[degenerated]

Another SNP lying B*****d.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/ukraine-russia-war-as-public-supports-ukrainian-refugees-its-time-for-uk-government-to-deliver-angus-robertson-msp-3610894

Robertson claim Britain refused to take Jewish refugees in the 30’s before the Second World War.

Britain actually took 40,000 adults plus another 10,000 children on the kinder transport scheme.

That is a large proportion of the Jews who left mainland Europe, others going to US , South America , and Jordan.He doesn't say that at all, he says they were largely refused.

Whilst Britain did take the numbers of refugees you state around 10 times that number were refused entry.

[Kato]

Another SNP lying B*****d.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/ukraine-russia-war-as-public-supports-ukrainian-refugees-its-time-for-uk-government-to-deliver-angus-robertson-msp-3610894

Robertson claim Britain refused to take Jewish refugees in the 30’s before the Second World War.

Britain actually took 40,000 adults plus another 10,000 children on the kinder transport scheme.

That is a large proportion of the Jews who left mainland Europe, others going to US , South America , and Jordan.Thousands were refused entry. Every child who came to the UK required a sponsor and a £50 payment to HM Govt. Three and half grand in today's money. Drop the charge and thousands who were turned away could have been saved.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

Thousands were refused entry. Every child who came to the UK required a sponsor and a £50 payment to HM Govt. Three and half grand in today's money. Drop the charge and thousands who were turned away could have been saved.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkAfter Germany annexed Austria the British government actually tightened the immigration laws to make it more difficult for them to gain entry.

I seem to remember reading that there were over half a million case files held by British Jewish associations on those that had been refused entry.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thousands were refused entry. Every child who came to the UK required a sponsor and a £50 payment to HM Govt. Three and half grand in today's money. Drop the charge and thousands who were turned away could have been saved.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Bit like Ukraine. Refugee response slow but military response superb. If it wasn't for the allies there wouldn't be a Jewish race in central Europe and the *******s wouldn't stop at the jews

[Kato]

After Germany annexed Austria the British government actually tightened the immigration laws to make it more difficult for them to gain entry.


Probably a policy led by the fascist traitors in Parliament and the racist press.

Being Anti anti-Semitic was a fashion among the upper classes only once the atrocities of the holocaust were revealed post-war.



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[greenginger]

Y
Thousands were refused entry. Every child who came to the UK required a sponsor and a £50 payment to HM Govt. Three and half grand in today's money. Drop the charge and thousands who were turned away could have been saved.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/kindertransport/

The only children requiring a £ 50 payment were the small proportion who didn’t ha a UK guarantor.

The £ 50 was required cover returning home costs and was paid for by charities.

But just keep banging on with your made up stories.

[Mcbizz1998]

Another SNP lying B*****d.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/ukraine-russia-war-as-public-supports-ukrainian-refugees-its-time-for-uk-government-to-deliver-angus-robertson-msp-3610894

Robertson claim Britain refused to take Jewish refugees in the 30’s before the Second World War.

Britain actually took 40,000 adults plus another 10,000 children on the kinder transport scheme.

That is a large proportion of the Jews who left mainland Europe, others going to US , South America , and Jordan.

The SNP should keep quiet about that particular war. You know, considering their plan at that time….

https://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-nazi-plan-2512735?amp

[Stairway 2 7]

King's college says 80,000 Jewish refugees came to Britain in the 1930s. It wasn't as easy as it is now to travel great distances and people were much poorer in general


During the early 1930s, it was easiest for the wealthy to leave Germany and travel to Britain as these individuals had private means and good international contacts while those without these benefits found it more difficult to leave Europe. Britain, like the rest of the western hemisphere, was still recovering from the effects of the Great Depression and was reluctant to encourage immigrants who might challenge the British workforce for employment

Under these methods, by the end of 1938, approximately 30,000 refugees had entered Britain

In response to this surge of violence (in 1938) it became clear to the British government that anyone to whom they offered visas would likely remain in the country. The British Jewish community quickly pushed for further assistance to help Jewish refugees escape from Nazi oppression and many rescue operations were launched with the Kindertransport and Kitchener Camp rescues being the largest.

In total, nearly 10,000 children travelled to Britain as part of the Kindertransport scheme

Altogether, the lives of some 4,000 refugees were saved by the Kitchener Camp rescue.

It is impossible to know the exact numbers who found refuge in Britain even if only temporarily while en route to another nation but somewhere in the vicinity of 80,000 refugees arrived in Britain during the 1930s

[grunt]

The SNP should keep quiet about that particular war. You know, considering their plan at that time….

That's pathetic.

[weecounty hibby]

The SNP should keep quiet about that particular war. You know, considering their plan at that time….

https://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-nazi-plan-2512735?amp
I don't even need to open that to know you will be talking about Arthur Donaldson. A man who never faced any charges whatsoever from the British state. It is a story largely made up and wholly debunked many times over. But it is a good one to keep the Brits warm and cosy while ignoring the Russian assets currently in government. Actually part of the government!! Get your head round that one. Also if its Nazi sympathisers your looking for you can start at tye very top of Engkish society with the Royal family

[Mcbizz1998]

I don't even need to open that to know you will be talking about Arthur Donaldson. A man who never faced any charges whatsoever from the British state. It is a story largely made up and wholly debunked many times over. But it is a good one to keep the Brits warm and cosy while ignoring the Russian assets currently in government. Actually part of the government!! Get your head round that one. Also if its Nazi sympathisers your looking for you can start at tye very top of Engkish society with the Royal family

Go on then, debunk it.

“The Brits” [emoji28]

Edit: just realised you are maybe Irish given the username.

[Mcbizz1998]

That's pathetic.

Is it aye? Why’s that?

[CropleyWasGod]

Go on then, debunk it.

“The Brits” [emoji28]

In that article that you linked:-

"The fact that even Tom Johnston, the secretary of state at the time, dismissed the story and released Mr Donaldson from internment speaks volumes for the veracity of this far-fetched tale,"

[Mcbizz1998]

In that article that you linked:-

"The fact that even Tom Johnston, the secretary of state at the time, dismissed the story and released Mr Donaldson from internment speaks volumes for the veracity of this far-fetched tale,"

That’s not debunking it. I could start linking lots
of other articles.

[CropleyWasGod]

That’s not debunking it. I could start linking lots
of other articles.

So the Secretary of State dismissing the story is not enough?

[weecounty hibby]

Go on then, debunk it.

“The Brits” [emoji28]…. you are one mate!

No evidence has ever been produced to substantiate the claims against Donaldson and he was NEVER charged with any offence. I'm fact he was interred on the word of one man with no corroborating statements from anyone.

I actually read the link you posted and this is the last paragraph.
"The fact that even Tom Johnston, the secretary of state at the time, dismissed the story and released Mr Donaldson from internment speaks volumes for the veracity of this far-fetched tale."

The report you linked also said this
"His internment was widely believed to be a result of his pacifist policies, and he was released without charge after six weeks in Barlinnie prison"
So hardly the smoking gun or the definitive case for him being a Nazi sympathisers you think it is

Oh, by the way what about that English Royal family though?

[WeeRussell]

That’s not debunking it. I could start linking lots
of other articles.

Actual ones that prove your point? I don’t think you could, as I reckon you would have already done so if that was the case.

[Mcbizz1998]

So the Secretary of State dismissing the story is not enough?

It’s evidence that maybe it didn’t happen but it’s not debunking anything.

Donaldson set up the Scottish Neutrality League… he was at least happy for Scotland to avoid fighting the Nazis. His pal Hugh McDiarmid, the nationalist hero, said he thought the axis powers invading would be good for Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

Linking people's politics of the 30s to 80 years later is daft, whether that's to shame snp, uk government or the royals

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s evidence that maybe it didn’t happen but it’s not debunking anything.

.

So the senior politician in Scotland says it didn't happen, and you say that's "not debunking anything."

2 questions:-

1. what would be enough for you to believe that it didn't happen?

2. do you have proof that it did?

[weecounty hibby]

Linking people's politics of the 30s to 80 years later is daft, whether that's to shame snp, uk government or the royals

I am not for one second suggesting that the Royal family of today would indulge in anything like that. But I was trying to show that what the unionists try to do with Donaldson, with absolutely no proof can be done with the highest of the English classes but there is actual evidence. I have seen the Donaldson story many many times from anti SNP sorts to try to show some sort of right wing Nazism but there is no corroborated proof.

[Mcbizz1998]

No evidence has ever been produced to substantiate the claims against Donaldson and he was NEVER charged with any offence. I'm fact he was interred on the word of one man with no corroborating statements from anyone.

I actually read the link you posted and this is the last paragraph.
"The fact that even Tom Johnston, the secretary of state at the time, dismissed the story and released Mr Donaldson from internment speaks volumes for the veracity of this far-fetched tale."

The report you linked also said this
"His internment was widely believed to be a result of his pacifist policies, and he was released without charge after six weeks in Barlinnie prison"
So hardly the smoking gun or the definitive case for him being a Nazi sympathisers you think it is

Oh, by the way what about that English Royal family though?

He wasn’t charged, doesn’t mean it never happened. He set up the Scottish neutrality league, that in itself tells you his feelings towards the war and what Scotlands role should be. The SNP have a sketchy record around that time, no doubt about that - that was my only point.

What about the Royals? [emoji23] This is an SNP thread and I’m not a supporters of the royal family. I don’t know why you have come to that conclusion?!

[Mcbizz1998]

So the senior politician in Scotland says it didn't happen, and you say that's "not debunking anything."

2 questions:-

1. what would be enough for you to believe that it didn't happen?

2. do you have proof that it did?

1. Don’t know
2. I never said it did and no I don’t have proof. I, on balance, believe it probably did. That’s all.

Cheers.

[Stairway 2 7]

I am not for one second suggesting that the Royal family of today would indulge in anything like that. But I was trying to show that what the unionists try to do with Donaldson, with absolutely no proof can be done with the highest of the English classes but there is actual evidence. I have seen the Donaldson story many many times from anti SNP sorts to try to show some sort of right wing Nazism but there is no corroborated proof.

It's not worth the effort it's bizarre to link the shame if there was any, to the current snp.

It's like saying Donald Trump and the Republicans should be loved by African Americans now, because Lincoln a Republican done so much for the slaves

[Mcbizz1998]

It's not worth the effort it's bizarre to link the shame if there was any, to the current snp.

It's like saying Donald Trump and the Republicans should be loved by African Americans now, because Lincoln a Republican done so much for the slaves

Yeah well, that was actually my point in the first place. The SNP accusing Britain of not taking in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years ago, is pathetic and unfounded.

So I brought up something that is also unfounded (although I suspect may well be true) about the SNP.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah well, that was actually my point in the first place. The SNP accusing Britain of not taking in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years ago, is pathetic and unfounded.

So I brought up something that is also unfounded (although I suspect may well be true) about the SNP.

Agree the Robertson article was pish in using the horror of the war to hit the current tory gov

[weecounty hibby]

Yeah well, that was actually my point in the first place. The SNP accusing Britain of not taking in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years ago, is pathetic and unfounded.

So I brought up something that is also unfounded (although I suspect may well be true) about the SNP.
What makes you suspect it is true? What is your research on this, what evidence have you seen that others may not have? What is it that you have seen that the might of the British state and their security services didn't and led them to release Donaldson with no charge?

[WeeRussell]

1. Don’t know
2. I never said it did and no I don’t have proof. I, on balance, believe it probably did. That’s all.

Cheers.

Would it be fair to say the “on balance” but isn’t really what you mean, and you just want to believe it happened?

[Hiber-nation]

1. Don’t know
2. I never said it did and no I don’t have proof. I, on balance, believe it probably did. That’s all.

Cheers.

This all sounds very familiar.

What was your previous user name again?

[JeMeSouviens]

Would it be fair to say the “on balance” but isn’t really what you mean, and you just want to believe it happened?

Mostly, Proud Scots with an alternative view couldn’t care less whether it’s true or not, it’s a great smear.

Bit like all the Big Jock Knew stuff.

[Just Alf]

Trolls.back out from.under.its Bridge it seems.

[Mcbizz1998]

What makes you suspect it is true? What is your research on this, what evidence have you seen that others may not have? What is it that you have seen that the might of the British state and their security services didn't and led them to release Donaldson with no charge?

As I said above, I made the point after reading about the SNP claiming Britain didn’t take in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years or so ago. So I made a similarly unfounded point.

Whether I believe it to be true or not is my personal opinion.

Mainly its due to Donaldson and the SNP’s sympathies of the time, MI5 clearly believing it and deciding he needed interned, the informant who said it happened, the quotes from Donaldson at the time (“ The government would leave the country and England’s position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, has great possibilities”) and my total disdain for the SNP in general. To be clear, I’m not saying it happened.

[Mcbizz1998]

This all sounds very familiar.

What was your previous user name again?

Haha - nope not me! I presume it’s someone else you didn’t agree with?

I have been a member on here for a few weeks after being a long term reader of the main forum. Think I will just stick to that one going forward[emoji106]

Cheers.

[WeeRussell]

As I said above, I made the point after reading about the SNP claiming Britain didn’t take in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years or so ago. So I made a similarly unfounded point.

Whether I believe it to be true or not is my personal opinion.

Mainly its due to Donaldson and the SNP’s sympathies of the time, MI5 clearly believing it and deciding he needed interned, the informant who said it happened, the quotes from Donaldson at the time (“ The government would leave the country and England’s position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, has great possibilities”) and my total disdain for the SNP in general. To be clear, I’m not saying it happened.

Hold on…

What you believe isn’t your opinion, and you’re not saying it happened but your opinion is it did happen because you hate the SNP?!

[grunt]

The SNP should keep quiet about that particular war. You know, considering their plan at that time….



That's pathetic.


Is it aye? Why’s that?


To be clear, I’m not saying it happened.
:greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

As I said above, I made the point after reading about the SNP claiming Britain didn’t take in enough Jewish refugees, 80 years or so ago. So I made a similarly unfounded point.

Whether I believe it to be true or not is my personal opinion.

Mainly its due to Donaldson and the SNP’s sympathies of the time, MI5 clearly believing it and deciding he needed interned, the informant who said it happened, the quotes from Donaldson at the time (“ The government would leave the country and England’s position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, has great possibilities”) and my total disdain for the SNP in general. To be clear, I’m not saying it happened.

You literally did say that it happened I quote "I on balance believe it probably did happen"

What you have copied is a quote from the British MI5 agent that has never been corroborated by anyone. You are presenting it here as if it was a direct quote from Donaldson that you can prove he said. You cannot prove he ever said anything like that

[Mcbizz1998]

Hold on…

What you believe isn’t your opinion, and you’re not saying it happened but your opinion is it did happen because you hate the SNP?!

Did you read the post you quoted mate?

I can believe something happened and not categorically say that it 100% did (as I don’t have the proof).

And I gave lots of other reasons for why I believe it (probably) happened other than not liking the SNP haha.

[Mcbizz1998]

You literally did say that it happened I quote "I on balance believe it probably did happen"

What you have copied is a quote from the British MI5 agent that has never been corroborated by anyone. You are presenting it here as if it was a direct quote from Donaldson that you can prove he said. You cannot prove he ever said anything like that

Nope - there is a difference between saying I believe something probably happened (which is my opinion only) and saying something definitely did happen (which is a statement of fact).

Ok - I will take your word for that. I thought that was a direct quote. Thanks for clarifying.

[WeeRussell]

Did you read the post you quoted mate?

I can believe something happened and not categorically say that it 100% did (as I don’t have the proof).

And I gave lots of other reasons for why I believe it (probably) happened other than not liking the SNP haha.

I did. You said that whether you believe it to be true is not your opinion.

[majorhibs]

Did you read the post you quoted mate?

I can believe something happened and not categorically say that it 100% did (as I don’t have the proof).

And I gave lots of other reasons for why I believe it (probably) happened other than not liking the SNP haha.


Nope - there is a difference between saying I believe something probably happened (which is my opinion only) and saying something definitely did happen (which is a statement of fact).

Ok - I will take your word for that. I thought that was a direct quote. Thanks for clarifying.

Oh my & I thought they were gettin back on top of these lying brexit russki lying types, with they’re trolling disinformation & influencing! Schoolboy error!

[weecounty hibby]

Nope - there is a difference between saying I believe something probably happened (which is my opinion only) and saying something definitely did happen (which is a statement of fact).

Ok - I will take your word for that. I thought that was a direct quote. Thanks for clarifying.

Ah, the old defence of saying "allegedly " when accusing someone and thinking that means you didnt ,actually accuse them!!

Yes, what you have tried to pass off as quotes from Donaldson were actually what the MI5 officer alleged in his report. Never backed up by anyone else and again never believed by the then secretary of state or the police and therefore Donaldon was released without charge

[Mcbizz1998]

Oh my & I thought they were gettin back on top of these lying brexit russki lying types, with they’re trolling disinformation & influencing! Schoolboy error!

Maybe I’m tired or something but I don’t get this post?

Am I being called a liar? What have a lied about in either of those posts?

[Mcbizz1998]

Ah, the old defence of saying "allegedly " when accusing someone and thinking that means you didnt ,actually accuse them!!

Yes, what you have tried to pass off as quotes from Donaldson were actually what the MI5 officer alleged in his report. Never backed up by anyone else and again never believed by the then secretary of state or the police and therefore Donaldon was released without charge

But I didn’t do that?? I am just telling you what I believe to be true. You seem to be upset that I personally believe something.

I have conceded I can’t prove it and told you what my opinion is based on. But I believe it just like people believe in lots of things they can’t prove. Not something to get upset about.

Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

[weecounty hibby]

Maybe I’m tired or something but I don’t get this post?

Am I being called a liar? What have a lied about in either of those posts?
Personally I don't think you're lying, I think you are mistaken and have bought into a myth that keeps getting used by unionists to try to prove some kind of neo nazism in the SNP, allied to your dislike of the SNP you are happy to believe the myth

[Mcbizz1998]

Personally I don't think you're lying, I think you are mistaken and have bought into a myth that keeps getting used by unionists to try to prove some kind of neo nazism in the SNP, allied to your dislike of the SNP you are happy to believe the myth

Ok well thanks for that. I’m not accusing the SNP of being neo-nazis either btw.

I seem to be getting accused of being a troll, a liar and someone else who presumably posted on here previously.

I’ve maybe misjudged what can and can’t be posted - will stick to hibs topics to avoid hassle in future.

[weecounty hibby]

But I didn’t do that?? I am just telling you what I believe to be true. You seem to be upset that I personally believe something.

I have conceded I can’t prove it and told you what my opinion is based on. But I believe it just like people believe in lots of things they can’t prove. Not something to get upset about.

Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

Honestly not offended in the slightest. The written word often doesn't come across well in a debate. One of my dearest friends is a unionist and nothing will ever persuade him otherwise. I would never fall out with him nor take offence at his stance. I don't agree with him but it's his right to his beliefs and I respect him for that. So no offence taken at all

[majorhibs]

But I didn’t do that?? I am just telling you what I believe to be true. You seem to be upset that I personally believe something.

I have conceded I can’t prove it and told you what my opinion is based on. But I believe it just like people believe in lots of things they can’t prove. Not something to get upset about.

Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

How many times? OCD or what? What ye tryin to prove & who to? Who do you work for? How long since you last slept? Any chance postin summat sensible instead of what you obv know will be devisive here due to past posts? Or better still go oot & have a pint or find a girlfriend.

[Mcbizz1998]

Honestly not offended in the slightest. The written word often doesn't come across well in a debate. One of my dearest friends is a unionist and nothing will ever persuade him otherwise. I would never fall out with him nor take offence at his stance. I don't agree with him but it's his right to his beliefs and I respect him for that. So no offence taken at all

[emoji106]

[Kato]

The SNP should keep quiet about that particular war. You know, considering their plan at that time….

https://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-nazi-plan-2512735?amp

I'm not the SNP so have no problem talking about it. My very early memories of the SNP as a political party are from the 1970's when they seemed to be represented by some real cranks, a tiny amount of earnest students and some honest to goodness weirdos. Not even beneath the surface was a lot of Anti-English sentiment. I've no particular love or passion for the SNP so can see discuss the article.


In your link Arthur Donaldson had this as his plan.


"The government would leave the country and England's position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, has great possibilities," Mr Donaldson is recorded as saying.

"The movement in Scotland must then be able to show the German government that it is organised and has a clear-cut policy, that it is not with England in the war.

"The German government will give them every possible assistance in their early struggle, and when fire and confusion is at its height in England the movement can start in earnest."

That's disgusting. To seek to make political capitol from a neighbouring countries misfortune is the thought process of an absolute weirdo. It just goes to show though, fascism isn't anything to do with governing a country, its plain gangsterism as it was in Nazi Germany and as it is now in Russia. Power grabs and stroking egos with cash while using any old local petty bigotry to get a foothold. There's a book out there "Fascism In Scotland" which describes a "new form of bigotry trying to make a name for itself in an already crowded market" but all it does is use old ones to stoke division.

The SNP spokeman's answer is pathetic and they shouldn't keep quiet about it, the should talk about this guy as an example of how dangerous personalities can seek power.


If its true.


It was 60 years ago he was Leader of the SNP. It was niche partisan outfit. Politics change, in 1960 there were Tory politicians who came round to realising having a state owned power grid and railway could actually have a good effect on the economy.

At the moment for me the SNP or Indyref2 and arguing the whys and wherefores of is small fry compared to what is happening around us and what is within our country.










Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[majorhibs]

Kato obv untouchable or even an admin????

Absolute not what posted before to your obv amusement. Not amusing

[Ozyhibby]

Some hilarious stuff on here tonight.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Absolute not what posted before to your obv amusement. Not amusingKnock yourself out.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

I'm not the SNP so have no problem talking about it. My very early memories of the SNP as a political party are from the 1970's when they seemed to be represented by some real cranks, a tiny amount of earnest students and some honest to goodness weirdos. Not even beneath the surface was a lot of Anti-English sentiment. I've no particular love or passion for the SNP so can see discuss the article.


In your link Arthur Donaldson had this as his plan.


"The government would leave the country and England's position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, has great possibilities," Mr Donaldson is recorded as saying.

"The movement in Scotland must then be able to show the German government that it is organised and has a clear-cut policy, that it is not with England in the war.

"The German government will give them every possible assistance in their early struggle, and when fire and confusion is at its height in England the movement can start in earnest."

That's disgusting. To seek to make political capitol from a neighbouring countries misfortune is the thought process of an absolute weirdo. It just goes to show though, fascism isn't anything to do with governing a country, its plain gangsterism as it was in Nazi Germany and as it is now in Russia. Power grabs and stroking egos with cash while using any old local petty bigotry to get a foothold. There's a book out there "Fascism In Scotland" which describes a "new form of bigotry trying to make a name for itself in an already crowded market" but all it does is use old ones to stoke division.

The SNP spokeman's answer is pathetic and they shouldn't keep quiet about it, the should talk about this guy as an example of how dangerous personalities can seek power.


If its true.


It was 60 years ago he was Leader of the SNP. It was niche partisan outfit. Politics change, in 1960 there were Tory politicians who came round to realising having a state owned power grid and railway could actually have a good effect on the economy.

At the moment for me the SNP or Indyref2 and arguing the whys and wherefores of is small fry compared to what is happening around us and what is within our country.










Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Spot on Kato, but what is not being considered was the political climate during the late 30s was that owning a Daschund made you a quisling. I have read elsewhere that Donaldson would have liked to have worked with Nazi Germany had they succeeded in invading Great Britain, however imho he and his few members at this time would have been nothing but a nuisance rather than any credible threat. Real spies and agitators would have been of much more importance.

[majorhibs]

Spot on Kato, but what is not being considered was the political climate during the late 30s was that owning a Daschund made you a quisling. I have read elsewhere that Donaldson would have liked to have worked with Nazi Germany had they succeeded in invading Great Britain, however imho he and his few members at this time would have been nothing but a nuisance rather than any credible threat. Real spies and agitators would have been of much more importance.

Absolutely, 100%, spot on completely, what I uselessly attempted last night with no eyes left, fingers thumbs, brain at -10% although may have mixed last 3 up, is how, nowadays, with alleged enlightenment, how decisions or actions in history can ever be related to actions now, when we all know decisions made by people in power today do NOT result in death/elimination of said person/family/nation but decisions & actions made in history did! Obviously excepting current Ukrainian situation, which seems to draw many comparisons with barbaric history. As far as the frankly disgusting deflection such a headline to this thread creates while the similar headlined thread was about pointing out ever yet more lies from a current government who imo must be by so far you couldn’t measure the biggest lying govt the UK has ever known, well that individual got WAY too much attention from me due to me stupidly thinking that it was a poster from long ago I’d liked, green & glaikit. Apologies to old time quality poster G & G, & I won’t be spending too much future time wasting on etonian wannabees like your near namesake.

[Kato]

Absolutely, 100%, spot on completely, what I uselessly attempted last night with no eyes left, fingers thumbs, brain at -10% although may have mixed last 3 up, is how, nowadays, with alleged enlightenment, how decisions or actions in history can ever be related to actions now, when we all know decisions made by people in power today do NOT result in death/elimination of said person/family/nation but decisions & actions made in history did! Obviously excepting current Ukrainian situation, which seems to draw many comparisons with barbaric history. As far as the frankly disgusting deflection such a headline to this thread creates while the similar headlined thread was about pointing out ever yet more lies from a current government who imo must be by so far you couldn’t measure the biggest lying govt the UK has ever known, well that individual got WAY too much attention from me due to me stupidly thinking that it was a poster from long ago I’d liked, green & glaikit. Apologies to old time quality poster G & G, & I won’t be spending too much future time wasting on etonian wannabees like your near namesake.


History is there to learn from.

I like Vodka, Chekov's short stories, Gogol's novels and the idea of having a samovar with an endless brew. I'm not expecting either a medal from Putin or a tap on the door from MI5. If I'd been born in Russia, been allowed by their dictator to come to this country with a few billion in my pocket and sought to destabilise the UK economy, political institutions and relationships with the near neighbours I'd expect both. At the end of ww2 they had a programme of de-Nazification, sadly they didn't do it here.

[majorhibs]

The difference between you & me, my friend, is I have a rope around my neck, & you, do not! (c/o Tuco), the other big difference wi me is the bigger the lying politician, the bigger I dislike them! Why is it I feel pretty unique in this nowadays?

History, in all its horror & brilliance, is ruined nowadays by zealots who think they are anything.

[greenginger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60767736

Thats not Blackford lying again is it ?

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60767736

Thats not Blackford lying again is it ?

Home Office minister Kevin Foster tweeted: "It would be wrong to move children without attempting to reunite them with their family first and without the agreement of their home and host governments."

This appears to be his response to Blackford's remarks about orphans. And this demonstrates that Blackford's lying? :confused:

[majorhibs]

Home Office minister Kevin Foster tweeted: "It would be wrong to move children without attempting to reunite them with their family first and without the agreement of their home and host governments."

This appears to be his response to Blackford's remarks about orphans. And this demonstrates that Blackford's lying? :confused:

Nah mate. Nowadays anything’s fair game! Orphans living in Orphanages? Move along now, greenginge & torys don’t see a story or headline here. Sortae sums them up imo.

[One Day Soon]

**** me, this thread is badly in need of an interpreter at this stage.

[Moulin Yarns]

Home Office minister Kevin Foster tweeted: "It would be wrong to move children without attempting to reunite them with their family first and without the agreement of their home and host governments."

This appears to be his response to Blackford's remarks about orphans. And this demonstrates that Blackford's lying? :confused:

Let's reunite orphans with their parents seems to the UK government plans all along.

[greenginger]

Home Office minister Kevin Foster tweeted: "It would be wrong to move children without attempting to reunite them with their family first and without the agreement of their home and host governments."

This appears to be his response to Blackford's remarks about orphans. And this demonstrates that Blackford's lying? :confused:

Read the article. There has been no agreement with Ukraine or Polish governments to move the children. ( not surprising considering well over 1 million people have crossed the Polish border )
The Home Office will facilitate travel if consent is given.

In other words the children can’t be moved without Polish and Ukraine permission.

Blackford states “” a week on and the Home Office is the ONLY obstacle in the way “

That sounds like a lie to me, either that or Blackford hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about.

[grunt]

That sounds like a lie to me, either that or Blackford hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about.Good morning!

This tells me two things. One, that your world is neatly divided into black and white, where issues are either one thing or another, with no room for nuance. And two, that you believe the UK Gov explanation and don't believe the SNP explanation. We're all acting on what is reported, it's just that we differ in who we believe.

[weecounty hibby]

Read the article. There has been no agreement with Ukraine or Polish governments to move the children. ( not surprising considering well over 1 million people have crossed the Polish border )
The Home Office will facilitate travel if consent is given.

In other words the children can’t be moved without Polish and Ukraine permission.

Blackford states “” a week on and the Home Office is the ONLY obstacle in the way “

That sounds like a lie to me, either that or Blackford hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about.

He has said today that he has all of the relevant approvals except for the UK government. They have missed the plane on Friday but if the UK gov don't get the finger out they will also miss Monday's flight

[Moulin Yarns]

Read the article. There has been no agreement with Ukraine or Polish governments to move the children. ( not surprising considering well over 1 million people have crossed the Polish border )
The Home Office will facilitate travel if consent is given.

In other words the children can’t be moved without Polish and Ukraine permission.

Blackford states “” a week on and the Home Office is the ONLY obstacle in the way “

That sounds like a lie to me, either that or Blackford hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about.


Good morning!

This tells me two things. One, that your world is neatly divided into black and white, where issues are either one thing or another, with no room for nuance. And two, that you believe the UK Gov explanation and don't believe the SNP explanation. We're all acting on what is reported, it's just that we differ in who we believe.


He has said today that he has all of the relevant approvals except for the UK government. They have missed the plane on Friday but if the UK gov don't get the finger out they will also miss Monday's flight

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?356787-Dnipro-Kids-Evacuation-Update&p=6893855&viewfull=1#post6893855



They won’t make the plane, we have missed the deadline for Home Office approval and it has had to be postponed.

[Mcbizz1998]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60770729

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60770729

The report found:

The Scottish government does not have an analysis of the total amounts paid out to different sectors.
For sector specific funding administered by national organisations, such as Scottish Enterprise, about 20% of payments cannot currently be matched to council areas.
And information to enable wider analysis of how funding supported specific groups, such as female-owned businesses, is not available from centrally held data.

Not sure how any of that justifies the Labour "mired in secrecy" complaint as reported by BBC. "Lack of granularity" would be more accurate shirley.

[JimBHibees]

Read the article. There has been no agreement with Ukraine or Polish governments to move the children. ( not surprising considering well over 1 million people have crossed the Polish border )
The Home Office will facilitate travel if consent is given.

In other words the children can’t be moved without Polish and Ukraine permission.

Blackford states “” a week on and the Home Office is the ONLY obstacle in the way “

That sounds like a lie to me, either that or Blackford hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about.

Given the huge praise Stevie C has given Ian Blackford on the main page think you might be due him an apology.

[grunt]

Given the huge praise Stevie C has given Ian Blackford on the main page think you might be due him an apology.
:agree:

[greenginger]

Given the huge praise Stevie C has given Ian Blackford on the main page think you might be due him an apology.

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

[degenerated]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.Gie it a rest, you're making yourself look a bit foolish

[Moulin Yarns]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

If the UK government had been as welcoming as Poland, Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia with open borders and no unnecessary paperwork this could have been resolved without the need for Blackford's intervention.

Also from that BBC article


"While this process has been more difficult than it needed to be, all that matters now is that these children will be in a place of safety and I am pleased beyond words," he said.


"I want to pay tribute to everyone who has worked hard to make this happen, including the Scottish charity Dnipro Kids, the Ukrainian and Polish authorities, the Scottish government, Edinburgh City Council, and all those who have helped resolve issues at the Home Office."


He added: "It's essential that the UK government learns lessons and removes unnecessary barriers and delays to supporting displaced children and families."

[ronaldo7]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

You called Ian Blackford a slob earlier in the thread. You may wish to retract this slur and apologise, given the amount of work he's put in to help the Dnipro kids charity, or are you so hateful it's beneath you.

[lapsedhibee]

Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

So Ukraine wasn't bothered about the orphans leaving the country (they had already left) but it was Ukraine that was preventing them being in the UK. Seems plausible.

[WeeRussell]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

“Patel says” is never a good way to begin your argument…

Anyway, you are aware it is possible for her to confirm it’s now been confirmed and not mean it wasn’t held-up at this end rather than in Ukraine? It’s not like Patel left a voicemail and has been waiting for them to call back and say aye.

[CapitalGreen]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.

Jeez take a day off man. I’ll take Stevie’s on the ground account of what has gone on to get this done over a bunch of known liars in the UK government or their simps on here.

[Berwickhibby]

Well done to Ian Blackford and your work in supporting the Dnipro kids, I still don’t like him, but credit where credit is due.

[Bostonhibby]

No doubt Blackford put a lot of effort into the situation, but he still turned it into a political bashing issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60787601

Read the article.

” Patel says,

I am extremely grateful to the authorities in Ukraine, who have NOW confirmed to me that the children can come here “

Nothing could happen without Ukraine approval, and considering they have millions of cases it wasn’t going to happen overnight.

But just blame the U k Gov. if it makes you feel good.I kind of see where you are coming from by the letter of the apparent law here but really cannot see that our Home secretary has done anything proactive here, or generally at all.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

I kind of see where you are coming from by the letter of the apparent law here but really cannot see that our Home secretary has done anything proactive here, or generally at all.


Eh? She's stood up in the House of Commons and proclaimed that the UK's got a great record of looking out for refugees. If that's not the same thing as helping refugees I don't know what is.

[WeeRussell]

Eh? She's stood up in the House of Commons and proclaimed that the UK's got a great record of looking out for refugees. If that's not the same thing as helping refugees I don't know what is.

Oh don’t - that line is still ringing in my head from question time last night!

[Bostonhibby]

Eh? She's stood up in the House of Commons and proclaimed that the UK's got a great record of looking out for refugees. If that's not the same thing as helping refugees I don't know what is.Was it on the side of a bus though?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Was it on the side of a bus though?


No, of course not. Putting something on the side of a bus was a pure populist stunt by Vote Leave, and no government department would stoop to that. Home Office traditionally uses the sides of a van to promote its policies.

[greenginger]

Hi
I kind of see where you are coming from by the letter of the apparent law here but really cannot see that our Home secretary has done anything proactive here, or generally at all.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Firstly , there is no way the UK gov could move those children to the UK without Ukrainian Gov consent.
As orphans they will be the responsibility of the Ukrainian State.

Now if someone could obtain a copy of this permission and its dated 10 days ago , then Patel and Co are to blame.

If on the other hand permission only came through yesterday, the the moon- howlers on here have made ar**s of themselves once again.

[Bostonhibby]

Hi

Firstly , there is no way the UK gov could move those children to the UK without Ukrainian Gov consent.
As orphans they will be the responsibility of the Ukrainian State.

Now if someone could obtain a copy of this permission and its dated 10 days ago , then Patel and Co are to blame.

If on the other hand permission only came through yesterday, the the moon- howlers on here have made ar**s of themselves once again.I'm just thinking Patel must have been doing off the radar style lobbying to get it done then.

No doubt Blackford (whose party I do not support) was the one doing the pressing to get it across the line...

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm just thinking Patel must have been doing off the radar style lobbying to get it done then.

No doubt Blackford (whose party I do not support) was the one doing the pressing to get it across the line...

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

As StevieC posted in the wee small hours of this morning


https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?356787-Dnipro-Kids-Evacuation-Update&p=6894867&viewfull=1#post6894867

[He's here!]

Well done to Ian Blackford and your work in supporting the Dnipro kids, I still don’t like him, but credit where credit is due.

I cannae stand the pompous windbag either but I'd assumed he was involved with this as a member of the charity/Hibs fan rather than as an attempt to make some sort of political capital from it?

[ACLeith]

Regardless of political allegiances, EVERYBODY needs to listen to Stevie C; he knows what has been/is happening.

If he contradicts someone's view, then I know who I believe. I can't imagine that GG meant to call him a moon howler and an a**e, but he disagrees with him, so maybe he did?

[JeMeSouviens]

Regardless of political allegiances, EVERYBODY needs to listen to Stevie C; he knows what has been/is happening.

If he contradicts someone's view, then I know who I believe. I can't imagine that GG meant to call him a moon howler and an a**e, but he disagrees with him, so maybe he did?

iirc, Stevie is an SNP member. I can't imagine he's going to appear on GG's xmas card list!

[WhileTheChief..]

I kind of see where you are coming from by the letter of the apparent law here but really cannot see that our Home secretary has done anything proactive here, or generally at all.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for her in the Commons.

If you search online there's plenty of positive stuff about it, but it might mean you reading positive stories about a Tory so tread carefully!

You'll not read about it on here or in the Guardian though, only bad things the gov does are allowed.

[hibsbollah]

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for her in the Commons.

If you search online there's plenty of positive stuff about it, but it might mean you reading positive stories about a Tory so tread carefully!

You'll not read about it on here or in the Guardian though, only bad things the gov does are allowed.

And she’s a secret hun, according to the Manchester Evening News?
My favourite Truss story, tops even Cheese and Pork Markets.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/top-tory-liz-truss-filmed-21774565.amp

[Bostonhibby]

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for her in the Commons.

If you search online there's plenty of positive stuff about it, but it might mean you reading positive stories about a Tory so tread carefully!

You'll not read about it on here or in the Guardian though, only bad things the gov does are allowed.

Not going to fall out with you on this one[emoji106]
I don't by Newspapers or subscribe to the guardian


Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for her in the Commons.

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for the Home Secretary? Link please, I've completely missed that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hi

Firstly , there is no way the UK gov could move those children to the UK without Ukrainian Gov consent.
As orphans they will be the responsibility of the Ukrainian State.

Now if someone could obtain a copy of this permission and its dated 10 days ago , then Patel and Co are to blame.

If on the other hand permission only came through yesterday, the the moon- howlers on here have made ar**s of themselves once again.Isn't it strange then, that loads of other countries have managed to take in thousands of Ukrainian refugees. If it was the Ukrainians holding things up, then why were they only stopping them coming to the UK?

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

Politicians from all sides of the House were full of praise for the Home Secretary? Link please, I've completely missed that.

It was in the Commons when she announced the news. Not sure how to find a link but I'm sure you'll manage to find it if you look!!

It was on every news channel though, dunno how you missed it.

[WhileTheChief..]

And she’s a secret hun, according to the Manchester Evening News?
My favourite Truss story, tops even Cheese and Pork Markets.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/top-tory-liz-truss-filmed-21774565.amp

That's a belter!!

Didn't realise she was a gay Tory. Whatever next :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

Not going to fall out with you on this one[emoji106]
I don't by Newspapers or subscribe to the guardian


Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

I'm no fan of hers, but credit where it's due.

She got the job done though, which is the most important point in all of this. I'm pretty sure we all agree on that.

[lapsedhibee]

It was in the Commons when she announced the news. Not sure how to find a link but I'm sure you'll manage to find it if you look!!

It was on every news channel though, dunno how you missed it.

First thing that comes up, a story two hours old, is Tories complaining about her. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/borders-bill-asylum-seekers-patel-b2038961.html

[WhileTheChief..]

Sorry, my mistake, I thought we were talking about Liz Truss.

[Moulin Yarns]

Isn't it strange then, that loads of other countries have managed to take in thousands of Ukrainian refugees. If it was the Ukrainians holding things up, then why were they only stopping them coming to the UK?

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

Humanitarian reasons? 😉

[greenginger]

I
Regardless of political allegiances, EVERYBODY needs to listen to Stevie C; he knows what has been/is happening.

If he contradicts someone's view, then I know who I believe. I can't imagine that GG meant to call him a moon howler and an a**e, but he disagrees with him, so maybe he did?


Of of course I wasn’t referring to Stevie C

I was referring to the half dozen or so posters on here who turn virtually every thread into some kind of UK gov bashing thread.

As far as I can see from Stevie C’s posts , he’s never joined that club , so to suggest I included him was false.

However who caused the delay might or might not come out one day, but let’s all just be happy that the kids are here and safe.

[Bostonhibby]

I


Of of course I wasn’t referring to Stevie C

I was referring to the half dozen or so posters on here who turn virtually every thread into some kind of UK gov bashing thread.

As far as I can see from Stevie C’s posts , he’s never joined that club , so to suggest I included him was false.

However who caused the delay might or might not come out one day, but let’s all just be happy that the kids are here and safe.Never crossed my mind that you were.

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[lapsedhibee]

Sorry, my mistake, I thought we were talking about Liz Truss.

Oh, her. How some leftie wags are characterising that is

"Will you pay the £400million to free Radcliffe?"

Johnson: No
Hunt: No
Raab: No
Truss: Ok then

Were politicians of all hues really saying she'd played a blinder, or just welcoming the overdue release? I didn't see the announcement live.

[majorhibs]

I


Of of course I wasn’t referring to Stevie C

I was referring to the half dozen or so posters on here who turn virtually every thread into some kind of UK gov bashing thread.

As far as I can see from Stevie C’s posts , he’s never joined that club , so to suggest I included him was false.

However who caused the delay might or might not come out one day, but let’s all just be happy that the kids are here and safe.

I’m with the 1/2 dozen or so moon howlers & erses every time V the tories or greenginger, frankly imo screamin Lord Sutch was vastly superior at politics than any of this current lot & I think he grasped the ins & outs better also, because the Planet he was coming from actually was closer to our Planet here than greenginge/patel/Johnson’s etc.

[JimBHibees]

Isn't it strange then, that loads of other countries have managed to take in thousands of Ukrainian refugees. If it was the Ukrainians holding things up, then why were they only stopping them coming to the UK?

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Yes it is unusual the UK seems to be the only country that the Ukrainians would have an issue with their citizens fleeing war going to.

[Bostonhibby]

Yes it is unusual the UK seems to be the only country that the Ukrainians would have an issue with their citizens fleeing war going to.Maybe all the other countries didn't have all those folk howling at the moon we keep hearing about, so you can surely understand why the Ukrainian government would want to see refugees fleeing for their lives to go there first?

Especially if, as has been pointed out, the Ukrainian government seemed to have a need to pre approve / delay entry into other apparent places of safety.



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[Hibrandenburg]

Humanitarian reasons? [emoji6]:tee hee:

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[He's here!]

Not sure which of the SNP threads this belongs on but I think that no matter how strong anyone's allegiance to te Scottish government, most would agree this is a screw-up of hefty (and clearly ongoing) proportions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60837254

[Kato]

Not sure which of the SNP threads this belongs on but I think that no matter how strong anyone's allegiance to te Scottish government, most would agree this is a screw-up of hefty (and clearly ongoing) proportions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60837254There should be a full enquiry into that and if criminality is found people should go to jail. If its just incompetence the people should be sacked and named.



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[Jones28]

Not sure which of the SNP threads this belongs on but I think that no matter how strong anyone's allegiance to te Scottish government, most would agree this is a screw-up of hefty (and clearly ongoing) proportions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60837254

No dressing that up, that is ****ing ridiculous.

[Bostonhibby]

No dressing that up, that is ****ing ridiculous.What a f up, seeing Salmond's face right in the middle of it does help the PR either.

Right up there with Grayling spending money on boats that didnt exist.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/chris-grayling-defends-awarding-brexit-ferry-contract-to-firm-with-no-ferries

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[Kato]

No dressing that up, that is ****ing ridiculous.Yup, they should really go to town on f-ups like that.......

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[Ozyhibby]

I agree with this. The govt shouldn’t be getting into the ship building industry or trying to run airports. So far, they haven’t managed to make either viable businesses.


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[speedy_gonzales]

I agree with this. The govt shouldn’t be getting into the ship building industry or trying to run airports. So far, they haven’t managed to make either viable businesses.


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I'm starting to get nervous about them running the ScotRail franchise now. A lot of chat about services & station facilities being reduced/slashed.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm starting to get nervous about them running the ScotRail franchise now. A lot of chat about services & station facilities being reduced/slashed.

Got to agree with this. It's got impending disaster written all over it.

I think the Calmac and Prestwick things are ultimately well meaning attempts to save jobs, but Scotgov must take some lessons from how badly they've turned out and that cutting corners, however well intentioned, is not a good thing when you're using public money.

[weecounty hibby]

Got to agree with this. It's got impending disaster written all over it.

I think the Calmac and Prestwick things are ultimately well meaning attempts to save jobs, but Scotgov must take some lessons from how badly they've turned out and that cutting corners, however well intentioned, is not a good thing when you're using public money.

100% correct. Both were the right thing to do at the time, just been badly managed. I don't necessarily think we need to privatise them again as in principle I have no issues with publicly owned industry. The government needs to learn from these on how to run a nationalised industry. They should also take lessons from the publicly owned Scottish Water which generally seems to be ok, not without issues but ok

[Ozyhibby]

100% correct. Both were the right thing to do at the time, just been badly managed. I don't necessarily think we need to privatise them again as in principle I have no issues with publicly owned industry. The government needs to learn from these on how to run a nationalised industry. They should also take lessons from the publicly owned Scottish Water which generally seems to be ok, not without issues but ok

These aren’t nationalised industries though, they are nationalised companies that are competing with private companies. In the case of Prestwick, there is a reason it needed saving. It’s an airport that is too far away from any population centres and it’s competing with two bigger airports in the two biggest population centres in Scotland. If it’s problems were only short term then it would have been sold by now. As for Ferguson Marine, it looks like we have saved a shipyard that can’t build boats. We’re those jobs worth saving? Thankfully we seem to have learned a lesson there and the latest order for ferries went to somewhere that can.
Scotrail is a bit different in that it’s a natural monopoly so it’s possible to run it properly but it needs done at arms length from govt. There are plenty example of nationalised railways done properly but they all need govt subsidy of one form or another.


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[weecounty hibby]

These aren’t nationalised industries though, they are nationalised companies that are competing with private companies. In the case of Prestwick, there is a reason it needed saving. It’s an airport that is too far away from any population centres and it’s competing with two bigger airports in the two biggest population centres in Scotland. If it’s problems were only short term then it would have been sold by now. As for Ferguson Marine, it looks like we have saved a shipyard that can’t build boats. We’re those jobs worth saving? Thankfully we seem to have learned a lesson there and the latest order for ferries went to somewhere that can.
Scotrail is a bit different in that it’s a natural monopoly so it’s possible to run it properly but it needs done at arms length from govt. There are plenty example of nationalised railways done properly but they all need govt subsidy of one form or another.


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I think we are in agreement

[Sergio sledge]

Not sure which of the SNP threads this belongs on but I think that no matter how strong anyone's allegiance to te Scottish government, most would agree this is a screw-up of hefty (and clearly ongoing) proportions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60837254

Considering some of the hoops small firms have to jump through to get onto public sector tender lists and the, sometimes expensive and over specified, insurances and bonds that have to be in place in order to be awarded contracts it seems completely ridiculous that a contract was entered into without the required guarantees in place to protect the client. Who in their right mind goes into a contract of that size without being contractually secure?

[Berwickhibby]

Considering some of the hoops small firms have to jump through to get onto public sector tender lists and the, sometimes expensive and over specified, insurances and bonds that have to be in place in order to be awarded contracts it seems completely ridiculous that a contract was entered into without the required guarantees in place to protect the client. Who in their right mind goes into a contract of that size without being contractually secure?

Err the Scottish Government

[CapitalGreen]

Err the Scottish Government

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/zmfc7ty/articles/z7dyvk7

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/zmfc7ty/articles/z7dyvk7

Very good… nice piece of deflection

So what now? This order is projecting to be at least £153million over budget. That is £500,000 per job. Is the business really saved? Are the jobs really saved? Why has the order for 2 more ferries gone to Turkey?

[Ozyhibby]

Very good… nice piece of deflection

So what now? This order is projecting to be at least £153million over budget. That is £500,000 per job. Is the business really saved? Are the jobs really saved? Why has the order for 2 more ferries gone to Turkey?

It’s a balls up, plain and simple. The jobs are not saved as it’s hard to see why anyone would ask that yard to ever build a boat for them now. They have no chance of ever getting UK govt work while it’s owned by the SG. The minute these ferries are eventually finished I think this yard will be closed. This was a stupid idea from day one and plenty people said so.
As for the last question, I would have thought it was obvious?


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[Moulin Yarns]

I hope people are aware that the wiring which is not fit for purpose and needing replacing was complete before the Scottish Government became involved.

[Steven79]

I hope people are aware that the wiring which is not fit for purpose and needing replacing was complete before the Scottish Government became involved.When did that ever stop critics of the SNP.

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[Skol]

I hope people are aware that the wiring which is not fit for purpose and needing replacing was complete before the Scottish Government became involved.

And as I understand it, it they were fit for purpose when installed. design changes made after the cables were installed meant they were no longer fit for purpose to the new design.

[Berwickhibby]

And as I understand it, it they were fit for purpose when installed. design changes made after the cables were installed meant they were no longer fit for purpose to the new design.

But when did that ever stop some supporters of the SNP

[Just Alf]

But when did that ever stop supporters of the SNPLiterally in the 10 posts or so before yours there's SNP supporters saying the government got it wrong?

Edit: Apologies, I'm guessing you mean 'some' .. and on that I agree, its clear to see with some supporters of the other parties as well. There's always some :agree:

[Berwickhibby]

Literally in the 10 posts or so before yours there's SNP supporters saying the government got it wrong?

Edit: Apologies, I'm guessing you mean 'some' .. and on that I agree, its clear to see with some supporters of the other parties as well. There's always some :agree:

Edited to some as you are absolutely correct

[He's here!]

Derek Mackay seems to be getting the blame:

Nicola Sturgeon ‘throwing Derek Mackay under the bus’ after blaming him for ferry fiasco | Scotland | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-throwing-derek-mackay-under-the-bus-after-blaming-him-for-ferry-fiasco-9fsjn0sng)

The pics of one of the unfinished ferries being 'launched' with painted-on windows is especially cringeworthy.

[Berwickhibby]

Derek Mackay seems to be getting the blame:

Nicola Sturgeon ‘throwing Derek Mackay under the bus’ after blaming him for ferry fiasco | Scotland | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-throwing-derek-mackay-under-the-bus-after-blaming-him-for-ferry-fiasco-9fsjn0sng)

The pics of one of the unfinished ferries being 'launched' with painted-on windows is especially cringeworthy.

I wonder if it’s a school bus 🤭🤭

[James310]

These aren’t nationalised industries though, they are nationalised companies that are competing with private companies. In the case of Prestwick, there is a reason it needed saving. It’s an airport that is too far away from any population centres and it’s competing with two bigger airports in the two biggest population centres in Scotland. If it’s problems were only short term then it would have been sold by now. As for Ferguson Marine, it looks like we have saved a shipyard that can’t build boats. We’re those jobs worth saving? Thankfully we seem to have learned a lesson there and the latest order for ferries went to somewhere that can.
Scotrail is a bit different in that it’s a natural monopoly so it’s possible to run it properly but it needs done at arms length from govt. There are plenty example of nationalised railways done properly but they all need govt subsidy of one form or another.


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The Scottish Government will be praying nothing goes wrong with the Lochaber Smelter plant, they are on the hook for nearly £600M in guarantees if it does.

The Ferry's and Prestwick would be small fry compared to this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59332620


"They came up with something called "Project Boots", in which investors would buy bonds in return for guaranteed quarterly payments.

What was unusual about this transaction was that the Scottish government was also involved - guaranteeing to meet the payments even if the power stations broke down or the smelter couldn't afford them.

The Financial Times has fought a two-year freedom of information battle to confirm the size of this "taxpayer guarantee" - and, following intervention from Scotland's information commissioner, the government has revealed the figure to be £586m."

[Kato]

What would the price be if all the devolved Govt's investments came home to roost. £2B? £3?

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[He's here!]

McColl: Ferry contract was awarded for 'political gain':

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-rushed-disastrous-calmac-ferry-deal-in-hope-of-pre-election-boost-bd7mdlpg9

[Kato]

McColl: Ferry contract was awarded for 'political gain':

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-rushed-disastrous-calmac-ferry-deal-in-hope-of-pre-election-boost-bd7mdlpg9Like the "levelling up" projects favouring constituencies who voted Tory?

I don't see the scandal with this unless both are scandals?

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[He's here!]

Like the "levelling up" projects favouring constituencies who voted Tory?

I don't see the scandal with this unless both are scandals?

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I guess nothing's ever a scandal if whataboutery can be deployed as the default response.

Yousaf certainly seems to think there's nothing to see here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60886637

[Kato]

I guess nothing's ever a scandal if whataboutery can be deployed as the default response.

Yousaf certainly seems to think there's nothing to see here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60886637It is a scandal by the looks of it. I'm joining in with you, as I said above if any SNP person is guilty of wrongdoing in this they should be taken to task, jailed if need be. You can read what I said above.

If whataboutery means going after other political criminals, like gaslighting rapists, PPE fraudsters, COVID loan fraudsters, MP liars, litigious money launderers, those in cahoots with Putins oligarch minions - surely now is the time to go after them as well. Where is your whataboutery, when whataboutery is very much required these days? If politics is to function as a positive force we need more and consistent whataboutery to get rid of ALL the criminals/incompetents.


They are "loathsome" and "horrible" as well, no? Or is your silence of these elements within the Conservative and Unionist Party tacit support?

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