SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Mibbes Aye]

More chance of getting on a trident submarine :greengrin

Careful. Next thing you know is that the ferries were built but Westminster deployed Trident subs to sink them to make the SG look bad.

[Paul1642]

So targeting poor people?

A pretty large jump there. The minimum unit price was never meant to punish anyone rich or poor who want to enjoy a drink in moderation.

It was to financially discourage those who would but the cheapest possible spirit on the shelf and drink as much of it as they could afford for the sole purpose of getting pissed.

There is no benefit to anyone in society being able to buy a bottle of crap, strong drink for dirt cheap.

[Smartie]

A pretty large jump there. The minimum unit price was never meant to punish anyone rich or poor who want to enjoy a drink in moderation.

It was to financially discourage those who would but the cheapest possible spirit on the shelf and drink as much of it as they could afford for the sole purpose of getting pissed.

There is no benefit to anyone in society being able to buy a bottle of crap, strong drink for dirt cheap.

My student self would have disagreed with your final paragraph.

[archie]

A pretty large jump there. The minimum unit price was never meant to punish anyone rich or poor who want to enjoy a drink in moderation.

It was to financially discourage those who would but the cheapest possible spirit on the shelf and drink as much of it as they could afford for the sole purpose of getting pissed.

There is no benefit to anyone in society being able to buy a bottle of crap, strong drink for dirt cheap.
The idea that a poor person with a drink problem will, as a result of minimum alcohol pricing , say that's that then is questionable.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/marcuscarslaw1/status/1638314811363667970?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I forgot Labour opposed as well.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/marcuscarslaw1/status/1638314811363667970?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I forgot Labour opposed as well.


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Could be justified alcohol deaths are up and problem drinkers are spending more on drink when money is tight.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/07/minimum-alcohol-pricing-causes-poorest-cut-back-food-scotland

Minimum alcohol price ‘causes poorest to cut back on food’ in Scotland
This article is more than 9 months old
Some problem drinkers also reducing heating to afford rising alcohol costs, according to Public Health Scotland

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-leaked-alex-salmond-committee-29512880

SNP leaked Alex Salmond committee findings to protect Nicola Sturgeon, claims former Green MSP
Andy Wightman, who sat on the Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints, says he will write to Holyrood's presiding officer in an attempt to finally get to the bottom of the leak

[Ozyhibby]

Could be justified alcohol deaths are up and problem drinkers are spending more on drink when money is tight.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/07/minimum-alcohol-pricing-causes-poorest-cut-back-food-scotland

Minimum alcohol price ‘causes poorest to cut back on food’ in Scotland
This article is more than 9 months old
Some problem drinkers also reducing heating to afford rising alcohol costs, according to Public Health Scotland

https://twitter.com/monicalennon7/status/1638083941218373632?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

To be fair it’s now supported by Monica Lennon so I’ve no idea where Labour stand on the issue.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/monicalennon7/status/1638083941218373632?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

To be fair it’s now supported by Monica Lennon so I’ve no idea where Labour stand on the issue.


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There's no way they are cancelling it now. Although with inflation it must be smaller than it was

[danhibees1875]

There's no way they are cancelling it now. Although with inflation it must be smaller than it was

It was never going to stay at 50p, but the current level of inflation along with the current coverage of the schemes success is probably the right time to bring that up.

It'll be interesting to see the proposed figure and subsequent impact on common products. Last time the 50p impacted the strong and cheap stuff almost exclusively and limited the odd nice promotion - a significant hike could see a more wide reaching impact.

Is tesco value etc vodka still a thing? The MUP should have meant it's price went up to around the price of smirnoff etc which should have made the product redundant- unless smirnoff also bumped prices to maintain the delta.

[Santa Cruz]

https://twitter.com/monicalennon7/status/1638083941218373632?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

To be fair it’s now supported by Monica Lennon so I’ve no idea where Labour stand on the issue.


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It's more of an emotive issue for her than most, her Dad's death was alcohol related.

[Stairway 2 7]

It was never going to stay at 50p, but the current level of inflation along with the current coverage of the schemes success is probably the right time to bring that up.

It'll be interesting to see the proposed figure and subsequent impact on common products. Last time the 50p impacted the strong and cheap stuff almost exclusively and limited the odd nice promotion - a significant hike could see a more wide reaching impact.

Is tesco value etc vodka still a thing? The MUP should have meant it's price went up to around the price of smirnoff etc which should have made the product redundant- unless smirnoff also bumped prices to maintain the delta.

Go to England and you'll see our prices rose quite a bit across the board. 24 packs of beer significantly less spirits too. The value vodka isn't as much a thing now I don't think as Glen's is near the minimum price, premium spirits just bumped there's further.

[danhibees1875]

Go to England and you'll see our prices rose quite a bit across the board. 24 packs of beer significantly less spirits too. The value vodka isn't as much a thing now I don't think as Glen's is near the minimum price, premium spirits just bumped there's further.

I'll have a closer look next time I'm down. :greengrin

I know sainsburys (maybe others) in England do a deal where you get 20% off if you buy 6 bottles of wine. I'm not sure if things like that are replicated at all here (promotions isn't quite the same as MUP granted) - for instance 3 ciders for £5 in England is presumably why you sometimes see an individual bottle of cider priced at £1.67 here.

[He's here!]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-leaked-alex-salmond-committee-29512880

SNP leaked Alex Salmond committee findings to protect Nicola Sturgeon, claims former Green MSP
Andy Wightman, who sat on the Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints, says he will write to Holyrood's presiding officer in an attempt to finally get to the bottom of the leak

Yes, archie (I think) posted the link to the full text of his allegations last week. It's an interesting and (if you have time read through it all) credible assertion from a guy who had nothing to gain from the leak. Could well prove to be another stain on Sturgeon legacy:

https://andywightman.scot/

[archie]

I'll have a closer look next time I'm down. :greengrin

I know sainsburys (maybe others) in England do a deal where you get 20% off if you buy 6 bottles of wine. I'm not sure if things like that are replicated at all here (promotions isn't quite the same as MUP granted) - for instance 3 ciders for £5 in England is presumably why you sometimes see an individual bottle of cider priced at £1.67 here.

You often see offers that would be multi-buys in England sold at a per unit price here that amounts to the same.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, archie (I think) posted the link to the full text of his allegations last week. It's an interesting and (if you have time read through it all) credible assertion from a guy who had nothing to gain from the leak. Could well prove to be another stain on Sturgeon legacy:

https://andywightman.scot/

On an issue I think only Andy Wightman probably cares about now. And his chances of finding the leak are almost zero. There was nothing illuminating in his recent blog.


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[archie]

On an issue I think only Andy Wightman probably cares about now. And his chances of finding the leak are almost zero. There was nothing illuminating in his recent blog.


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I think you will find more people interested in it than you might imagine.

[Ozyhibby]

I think you will find more people interested in it than you might imagine.

Maybe. It’s possible this could bring down Sturgeon.


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[archie]

Maybe. It’s possible this could bring down Sturgeon.


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I think she's doing that all by herself.

[He's here!]

On an issue I think only Andy Wightman probably cares about now. And his chances of finding the leak are almost zero. There was nothing illuminating in his recent blog.


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Really? It would further expose the dark arts at the heart of the SNP management under Sturgeon if true - and it definitely impacted on how her being deemed to have misled Parliament was perceived.

You seemed certain for a long time that nobody cared about the GRR.

[Ozyhibby]

Really? It would further expose the dark arts at the heart of the SNP management under Sturgeon if true - and it definitely impacted on how her being deemed to have misled Parliament was perceived.

You seemed certain for a long time that nobody cared about the GRR.

Still think the vast majority don’t care about GRR. I think it’s an issue that affects so few people that there was no benefit to pursuing it. They did and it’s done no good what so ever. It’s not law and the opportunity cost of all the time spent on it is huge. NS should have went nowhere near it. I certainly wouldn’t have.
As for Wightman, he needs evidence or he’s wasting his time.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Still think the vast majority don’t care about GRR. I think it’s an issue that affects so few people that there was no benefit to pursuing it. They did and it’s done no good what so ever. It’s not law and the opportunity cost of all the time spent on it is huge. NS should have went nowhere near it. I certainly wouldn’t have.
As for Wightman, he needs evidence or he’s wasting his time.


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I suspect you are right in as much that GRR isn’t seen as a doorstep issue for a lot of people, regardless of its merits.

Voters do get exercised about division and discord in parties though, especially if it is the government or a party with intentions of forming the government.

In that sense this whole situation hasn’t helped the SNP at all.

[Ozyhibby]

I suspect you are right in as much that GRR isn’t seen as a doorstep issue for a lot of people, regardless of its merits.

Voters do get exercised about division and discord in parties though, especially if it is the government or a party with intentions of forming the government.

In that sense this whole situation hasn’t helped the SNP at all.

I agree on that. And for no gain. Had I been an MSP I would have happily voted for it but I would not have wasted anymore time on it than the one days debate. NS hasn’t made many political mistakes but this was certainly one of them. She probably felt the cross party support would have protected her but that disappeared the minute an opportunity arose.
The GRR should be dropped now. It’s on Alistair Jack’s desk now. Let him answer to any complaints going forward. The SNP need to get back to governing for the majority of people who have more important issues on their mind.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230323/f948e9f2755dcd9b775a7200a75089fe.jpg

Well done NS.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230323/f948e9f2755dcd9b775a7200a75089fe.jpg

Well done NS.


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I read Salmond left on +35.

Forbes is -8
Yousaf-20, in between Starmer and Sunak

[Mibbes Aye]

O
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230323/f948e9f2755dcd9b775a7200a75089fe.jpg

Well done NS.


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I agree. More people find her ‘unfavourable’ than feel that way about Sarwar or Starmer :greengrin

[grunt]

O

I agree. More people find her ‘unfavourable’ than feel that way about Sarwar or Starmer :greengrin
Just shows how many ****ing stupid people there are in Scotland.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230323/f948e9f2755dcd9b775a7200a75089fe.jpg

Well done NS.


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wonderful woman, wonderful politician respected the world over, except by Daily Mail/Express/Telegraph/Sun reading British Nationalists

[He's here!]

O

I agree. More people find her ‘unfavourable’ than feel that way about Sarwar or Starmer :greengrin

Not surprised. She was a polarising figure whose departure will not be mourned by those opposed to independence.

Her legacy is a thin one. Failed to deliver on independence, which is what she was repeatedly elected to do, and when it came to domestic policy she failed utterly in her oft-repeated number one priority, to close the education attainment gap.

[JimBHibees]

Not surprised. She was a polarising figure whose departure will not be mourned by those opposed to independence.

Her legacy is a thin one. Failed to deliver on independence, which is what she was repeatedly elected to do, and when it came to domestic policy she failed utterly in her oft-repeated number one priority, to close the education attainment gap.

Difficult to argue she failed on independence when she was never allowed a vote on it by the most corrupt U.K. government ever in our wonderful democratic union of unequals. Think her legacy is a strong one in terms of winning elections particularly when the media were predominantly against every move she made and her leadership in the pandemic was extraordinary imo.

[He's here!]

Oh, and she leaves this in a great place too...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65061614

[Skol]

Difficult to argue she failed on independence when she was never allowed a vote on it by the most corrupt U.K. government ever in our wonderful democratic union of unequals. Think her legacy is a strong one in terms of winning elections particularly when the media were predominantly against every move she made and her leadership in the pandemic was extraordinary imo.

It is not difficult at all. Her predecessor secured a vote from a much weaker position.

Overall sturgeon has led a divided nation and not only has she made no attempt to heal the division, she encouraged her supporters to feasts even bigger division

I hope her replacement takes a different approach

[JeMeSouviens]

Difficult to argue she failed on independence when she was never allowed a vote on it by the most corrupt U.K. government ever in our wonderful democratic union of unequals. Think her legacy is a strong one in terms of winning elections particularly when the media were predominantly against every move she made and her leadership in the pandemic was extraordinary imo.

Agree with that. The pandemic, with the twin "broad shouldered" propaganda opps of furlough and vaccine delivery, ought to have been a big boost for Unionism. Whatever you think of NS, I don't see how anyone can say she did other than totally knock her pan in trying to do the right thing throughout a pretty bleak time.

You could say she failed to significantly move the dial on indy support. But to say she failed to deliver on what she was elected to do is like saying Canute failed with tides. The reality has always been that Holyrood is not a sovereign parliament and the 2014 ref was only held because Unionism expected a massive, resounding, put it to bed forever style win.

I think in terms of devolved policy her legacy is pretty mixed. SNP strategy since 2007 has been cautious to say the least and NS is the exemplar of that. Don't rock any boats and try and keep as many as possible in the indy tent (mix those metaphors!) To be honest, not rocking boats can be an underrated quality in politicians, see Westminster govt 2010-2023 for the counterfactual, but her delivery has fallen well short of the rhetorical promises. I think her government has suffered from too much of the SNP's talent being wasted at Westminster and NS being too loyal to long time allies, along with the aforementioned excess of caution.

In party political terms her electoral success has been unprecedented but perhaps at the cost of (way) too much top down iron grip. I think the current turmoil reflects the inevitable destabilising vacuum when you remove that much power held in that tight a concentration.

It's a pity she never got the chance to see if she could actually lead a country.

[Moulin Yarns]

It is not difficult at all. Her predecessor secured a vote from a much weaker position.

Overall sturgeon has led a divided nation and not only has she made no attempt to heal the division, she encouraged her supporters to feasts even bigger division

I hope her replacement takes a different approach

You've identified the reason without realising it.


Salmond secured the referendum from a much weaker position, is the very reason why sturgeon was continually refused one because the position is so much stronger.

[Skol]

You've identified the reason without realising it.


Salmond secured the referendum from a much weaker position, is the very reason why sturgeon was continually refused one because the position is so much stronger.

Yeah I was pondering on that. I think Cameron agreed thinking there was no chance of a yes vote before getting a real fright. However he then stupidly thought he could pull off the same truck on Brecht. He really has screwed things up for the uk as a whole.

Also salmond was a shrewd political operator and I wouldn’t be surprised if he had been able to get a second referendum.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah I was pondering on that. I think Cameron agreed thinking there was no chance of a yes vote before getting a real fright. However he then stupidly thought he could pull off the same truck on Brecht. He really has screwed things up for the uk as a whole.

Also salmond was a shrewd political operator and I wouldn’t be surprised if he had been able to get a second referendum.

If he was really shrewd he would have build in the right to hold one when the Scottish Parliament voted for one. Even if there was an agreed timetable.


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[weecounty hibby]

Yeah I was pondering on that. I think Cameron agreed thinking there was no chance of a yes vote before getting a real fright. However he then stupidly thought he could pull off the same truck on Brecht. He really has screwed things up for the uk as a whole.

Also salmond was a shrewd political operator and I wouldn’t be surprised if he had been able to get a second referendum.
I don't think he would have. The fact that it was much closer in 2014 than the no side imagined means that we won't be allowed one any time soon. Let that sink in as well, we won't be allowed one 🤣🤣🤣 and folk think that is a good thing!!

[Mibbes Aye]

Just shows how many ****ing stupid people there are in Scotland.

That’s the spirit! Keep reaching out to that 55% :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

That’s the spirit! Keep reaching out to that 55% :greengrin

It's the sort of chat NS is saying we need to avoid and to get back to civil discussions. Kate Forbes has been saying similar.

Guess it doesn't apply to their side!

[Skol]

If he was really shrewd he would have build in the right to hold one when the Scottish Parliament voted for one. Even if there was an agreed timetable.


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Yeah good point. He got lots of other things right like the question and the timing, but he did miss a trick there.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s the spirit! Keep reaching out to that 55% :greengrin

Iirc, he's one of the 55%.

[JimBHibees]

Yeah good point. He got lots of other things right like the question and the timing, but he did miss a trick there.

Was probably a non negotiable point for Uk gov

[grunt]

That’s the spirit! Keep reaching out to that 55% :greengrin


It's the sort of chat NS is saying we need to avoid and to get back to civil discussions. Kate Forbes has been saying similar. Guess it doesn't apply to their side!
There's no point in reaching out. Firstly, neither of you is open to change. Secondly, even if we were polling at 90% Yes the Labour and Tory parties at Westminster would not "allow" a further poll. They need Scotland's energy and water resources too much to let us go. Indy is finished, might as well close the thread. We're done. It's all over.

[J-C]

I can't believe that after the **** show of the Tory government and a weak Labour, Scotland is still 50-50 on independence, madness

[archie]

There's no point in reaching out. Firstly, neither of you is open to change. Secondly, even if we were polling at 90% Yes the Labour and Tory parties at Westminster would not "allow" a further poll. They need Scotland's energy and water resources too much to let us go. Indy is finished, might as well close the thread. We're done. It's all over.
What water? And what is 'our' energy?

[Kato]

What water? And what is 'our' energy?Is this where you say its all the Uk's water and its all the Uks energy because we are unitary state, archie?

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[archie]

Is this where you say its all the Uk's water and its all the Uks energy because we are unitary state, archie?

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Well it's a bit more nuanced than that. I'm not aware of water exports from Scotland to the rest of the UK, apart from Highland Spring, so I would be interested to learn more about that. Notions of 'our' energy seem to ignore that it's actually privately owned (in some cases by community groups) and is financially supported by GB energy users by subsidies and guaranteed prices to encourage the development of renewables. So it's the 'ours' in relation to electricity I'm having a problem with.

[Kato]

Well it's a bit more nuanced than that. I'm not aware of water exports from Scotland to the rest of the UK, apart from Highland Spring, so I would be interested to learn more about that. Notions of 'our' energy seem to ignore that it's actually privately owned (in some cases by community groups) and is financially supported by GB energy users by subsidies and guaranteed prices to encourage the development of renewables. So it's the 'ours' in relation to electricity I'm having a problem with.So why not save bandwidth, cut to the chase and say that - rather than the big rigmarole of rhetorical questions?

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[greenginger]

So why not save bandwidth, cut to the chase and say that - rather than the big rigmarole of rhetorical questions?

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There’s your water answer .

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/

Scotland does not supply England with water.

[archie]

So why not save bandwidth, cut to the chase and say that - rather than the big rigmarole of rhetorical questions?

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It wasn't a rhetorical question. I think it fair to give Grunt the chance to make his point.

[Jack]

There’s your water answer .

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/

Scotland does not supply England with water.

Wales supplies to England and I'm pretty sure there's plans in the pipeline 😉 for more/new Welsh reservoirs supplying England.

Every few years there's chatter about pipelines from Scotland but as you say nothing has come from it. Yet!

[Kato]

There’s your water answer .

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/

Scotland does not supply England with water.I never asked for an answer about water but thanks, very kind.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Wales supplies to England and I'm pretty sure there's plans in the pipeline 😉 for more/new Welsh reservoirs supplying England.

Every few years there's chatter about pipelines from Scotland but as you say nothing has come from it. Yet!

It's inevitable the way the planet is warming. The south coast is going to struggle for water in the not too distant future

[Skol]

Was probably a non negotiable point for Uk gov

That’s a pretty standard response to assume Westminster are to blame and point the finger. They may have been, but I don’t know and your answer suggests you don’t know either. What we do know is that it wasn’t in the agreement.

[weecounty hibby]

There’s your water answer .

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/

Scotland does not supply England with water.

Yet

[Skol]

There's no point in reaching out. Firstly, neither of you is open to change. Secondly, even if we were polling at 90% Yes the Labour and Tory parties at Westminster would not "allow" a further poll. They need Scotland's energy and water resources too much to let us go. Indy is finished, might as well close the thread. We're done. It's all over.

More of what is wrong about and holds back the independence movement.

The assumption that there is no point reaching out. The assumption it will not be allowed. It’s all rubbish IMO. If there was an attempt to understand why people vote no, and attempt to build a positive case to get some of them onside, then there will be no way that whoever is in charge at Westminster would continue to say no.

I hope the new leadership come at this with a fresh perspective.

[grunt]

More of what is wrong about and holds back the independence movement.

The assumption that there is no point reaching out. The assumption it will not be allowed. It’s all rubbish IMO. If there was an attempt to understand why people vote no, and attempt to build a positive case to get some of them onside, then there will be no way that whoever is in charge at Westminster would continue to say no.

I hope the new leadership come at this with a fresh perspective.Sure.

[The Modfather]

More of what is wrong about and holds back the independence movement.

The assumption that there is no point reaching out. The assumption it will not be allowed. It’s all rubbish IMO. If there was an attempt to understand why people vote no, and attempt to build a positive case to get some of them onside, then there will be no way that whoever is in charge at Westminster would continue to say no.

I hope the new leadership come at this with a fresh perspective.

Out of interest, what are some of the potential positive aspects you can see in independence? Or the possible new directions we could take from the current path of the UK?

[Skol]

Out of interest, what are some of the potential positive aspects you can see in independence? Or the possible new directions we could take from the current path of the UK?

I think that’s for the independence movement to outline.

Clearly not being part of the basket case of the uk as it is now is one. So explain how that can be made to work

I think the new leader needs to dial back from all the divide and conquer mentality.

[The Modfather]

I think that’s for the independence movement to outline.

Clearly not being part of the basket case of the uk as it is now is one. So explain how that can be made to work

I think the new leader needs to dial back from all the divide and conquer mentality.

I just thought it might be more constructive and interesting for someone who is open minded, but still feels staying in the UK is our best option, to talk about some of the positive aspects and opportunities of independence. Even if it doesn’t swing the pendulum towards voting yes. Otherwise it’s just people listing things and the other side trying to find holes to talk them down.

What were some of the positive aspects of Indyref1 you liked? Could/should we implement these ideas whether we’re independent or not? If we were independent, what kind of a direction for a country would you like to see us go in?

[Skol]

Lol. Being open minded about independence hasn’t been an observation made here before

I remain sceptical but given events of the last few years I am about as open minded as I have ever been. since I was at school probably.

There are Many risks and unknowns and I would like an honest debate about these and how they would be managed. The usual wishing them away is not enough for me.

[Hibrandenburg]

It is not difficult at all. Her predecessor secured a vote from a much weaker position.

Overall sturgeon has led a divided nation and not only has she made no attempt to heal the division, she encouraged her supporters to feasts even bigger division

I hope her replacement takes a different approach

Salmond secured a referendum because no one in Westminster gave him a cat in hells chance of getting enough votes win it. Sturgeon never got a sniff at a democratic referendum because there was a real chance she would have pulled it off.

[Rumble de Thump]

Lol. Being open minded about independence hasn’t been an observation made here before

I remain sceptical but given events of the last few years I am about as open minded as I have ever been. since I was at school probably.

There are Many risks and unknowns and I would like an honest debate about these and how they would be managed. The usual wishing them away is not enough for me.

People who think Scotland should remain in the UK tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknows about remaining in the UK.

[marinello59]

People who think Scotland should remain in the UK tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknows about remaining in the UK.

People who think Scotland should be Independent tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknowns about leaving the U.K.

There, two biased and unfounded statements that should cancel each other out. :greengrin

[grunt]

People who think Scotland should be Independent tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknowns about leaving the U.K.
I don't think there's anyone on here who says that independence does not come with risks. Can you point to any posts which say this?

[marinello59]

I don't think there's anyone on here who says that independence does not come with risks. Can you point to any posts which say this?

You are asking me to defend a statement that I have already described as unfounded and biased. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

There are risks with both options. Only one of them lets us make our own choices though in order to try minimise those risks.


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[Mibbes Aye]

There are risks with both options. Only one of them lets us make our own choices though in order to try minimise those risks.


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“Our” choice was “No thanks”. You don’t have ownership of “we” or “our”, do you? 😀

[Ozyhibby]

“Our” choice was “No thanks”. You don’t have ownership of “we” or “our”, do you? [emoji3]

Sadly yes, the choice appears to be decline. And it’s on schedule.


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[J-C]

Still amazed that with all the Tory **** show we've had in the last 13 years, the lies during independence and Brexit and the corruption during Covid, the polls are still around 50-50, what will it take for people to wake up.

[Ozyhibby]

Still amazed that with all the Tory **** show we've had in the last 13 years, the lies during independence and Brexit and the corruption during Covid, the polls are still around 50-50, what will it take for people to wake up.

I think now, someone needs to be able to set out a vision of what the country could be. I don’t think anyone is doing that just now. So we just keep bumbling along.


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[grunt]

You are asking me to defend a statement that I have already described as unfounded and biased. :greengrin
I was asking for evidence of a statement you had described. A statement I'd never seen anyone make. But you just carry on.

[marinello59]

I was asking for evidence of a statement you had described. A statement I'd never seen anyone make. But you just carry on.

Do you think I was being serious there? Even when I described it as unfounded?
You really don’t have a sense of humour at all do you. :greengrin

[grunt]

Still amazed that with all the Tory **** show we've had in the last 13 years, the lies during independence and Brexit and the corruption during Covid, the polls are still around 50-50, what will it take for people to wake up.
You only have to look on this thread. People want cast iron guarantees of something that cannot be forecast. People are scared of what they cannot imagine. So we're stuck with being governed by people that don't care about Scotland. Them's the breaks.

If no one had imagination we would never have discovered new worlds. But it's easier to stick your head in the sand and say, "prove it".

[marinello59]

I think now, someone needs to be able to set out a vision of what the country could be. I don’t think anyone is doing that just now. So we just keep bumbling along.


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Yousaf?
Forbes?
Regan?

[grunt]

Do you think I was being serious there? Even when I described it as unfounded?
You really don’t have a sense of humour at all do you. :greengrinI don't think there's anything remotely amusing about the ruin of the future of my children and grandchildren, no.

[grunt]

“Our” choice was “No thanks”. You don’t have ownership of “we” or “our”, do you? 😀You'll have had your democracy.

[Ozyhibby]

Yousaf?
Forbes?
Regan?

I think only Forbes is capable of having a big picture vision. Yousaf would be in the category of good enough to be better than his opposite number but really it would just be bumbling along as we are now.
Not saying we have seen what Forbes big vision is yet, just that I think she is a capable leader. Potentially.
Regan hasn’t a hope.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://ballotbox.scot/after-sturgeon-end-of-an-era-or-a-government

Interesting article, worth a read. Plots a possible path to a Labour victory at Holyrood. Needs the Tories right enough but it’s possible.


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[marinello59]

I think only Forbes is capable of having a big picture vision. Yousaf would be in the category of good enough to be better than his opposite number but really it would just be bumbling along as we are now.
Not saying we have seen what Forbes big vision is yet, just that I think she is a capable leader. Potentially.
Regan hasn’t a hope.


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:agree:

[Rumble de Thump]

People who think Scotland should be Independent tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknowns about leaving the U.K.

There, two biased and unfounded statements that should cancel each other out. :greengrin

Sorry. That doesn't really make sense. I was just stating the obvious.

[Mibbes Aye]

You only have to look on this thread. People want cast iron guarantees of something that cannot be forecast. People are scared of what they cannot imagine. So we're stuck with being governed by people that don't care about Scotland. Them's the breaks.

If no one had imagination we would never have discovered new worlds. But it's easier to stick your head in the sand and say, "prove it".

I don’t think you can say ‘Prove it’ if your head is in the sand. You can say ‘Respect the result of a demovratic exercise and play up, you chaps’ though.

Not sure why that is! 😀

[grunt]

You can say ‘Respect the result of a demovratic exercise and play up, you chaps’ though.

Good of you to finally clarify your position. So we've had one vote and we can't have another, eh? Useful to know where we stand.

Strange view of democracy though.

[Mibbes Aye]

You only have to look on this thread. People want cast iron guarantees of something that cannot be forecast. People are scared of what they cannot imagine. So we're stuck with being governed by people that don't care about Scotland. Them's the breaks.

If no one had imagination we would never have discovered new worlds. But it's easier to stick your head in the sand and say, "prove it".

And while we are at it, there was the imagination to steer devolution through Westminster (cough, New Labour) and there was the imagination to deliver two terms of devolved government (cough, Labour-led) that delivered good, solid imaginative legislation, like the acts relating to mental health and capacity, the first legislation on land reform and a whole bunch more.

Trying to manage the best of both worlds is a great ambition. Just a shame for the people of Acotland that they have had to put up with two direly incompetent administrations qt the same time. One in Westminster consumed by hatred of one union, one in Holyrood consumed by hatred of another union.

[Mibbes Aye]

Good of you to finally clarify your position. So we've had one vote and we can't have another, eh? Useful to know where we stand.

Strange view of democracy though.

I never said that though, did I? At least you are showing you have imagination I guess😀

[grunt]

And while we are at it, there was the imagination to steer devolution through Westminster (cough, New Labour) and there was the imagination to deliver two terms of devolved government (cough, Labour-led) that delivered good, solid imaginative legislation, like the acts relating to mental health and capacity, the first legislation on land reform and a whole bunch more.

How long ago was this? You Labour types seem to enjoy living in the past ...

[grunt]

I never said that though, did I? At least you are showing you have imagination I guess[emoji3]

Please explain what you meant if not this.

[Mibbes Aye]

Please explain what you meant if not this.

I’m really not here to explain things for you. Try reading it again, take notes if helpful.

Or accept that the prospectus was rejected not because people were unimaginative. They just didn’t like it.

Incidentally, labelling more than half your electorate as unimaginative might not be the best tactic next time round.

[grunt]

I’m really not here to explain things for you. Try reading it again, take notes if helpful.

If you're not willing to stand by a statement you made barely 20 minutes ago, it makes it difficult to debate with you.

[Mibbes Aye]

If you're not willing to stand by a statement you made barely 20 minutes ago, it makes it difficult to debate with you.

Since when were you ever interested in debate?

Anyway, I explained it in the bit you cropped out. Debate that :greengrin

[archie]

You only have to look on this thread. People want cast iron guarantees of something that cannot be forecast. People are scared of what they cannot imagine. So we're stuck with being governed by people that don't care about Scotland. Them's the breaks.

If no one had imagination we would never have discovered new worlds. But it's easier to stick your head in the sand and say, "prove it".

So an independent Scotland might be better or it might be worse. Is that it?

[SteveHFC]

https://twitter.com/sunday_mail/status/1639752227186245632?s=46&t=MW7rW9XsaY_rH0m4EYSRhg

Tomorrow's front page leads on high-value transactions including vehicle purchases being looked at by police investigating allegations of fraud in the SNP.

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/sunday_mail/status/1639752227186245632?s=46&t=MW7rW9XsaY_rH0m4EYSRhg

Tomorrow's front page leads on high-value transactions including vehicle purchases being looked at by police investigating allegations of fraud in the SNP.

Not much info on the front page apart from attention grabbing headline and vague blurb. Not remotely saying "nothing to see here", but a Labour paper pumping an anti-SNP front page isn't really significant.

[Ozyhibby]

So an independent Scotland might be better or it might be worse. Is that it?

Actually that is it. I can’t see how anyone would think otherwise.


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[Skol]

People who think Scotland should remain in the UK tend to be unable to even acknowledge that there are risks and unknows about remaining in the UK.

Not on my part. However there is much less unknown about the current set up, doesn’t mean I like it.

[Kato]

Not on my part. However there is much less unknown about the current set up, doesn’t mean I like it.What do you know about the next ten years within the UK?

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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65080560

While I don't personally agree a change of PM/FM mid-term necessitates an election, Sarwar is entitled to call out the SNP's double standards here.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65080560

While I don't personally agree a change of PM/FM mid-term necessitates an election, Sarwar is entitled to call out the SNP's double standards here.

I guess we could also call out Labour’s double standards on the issue. Did we have an election when McConnnel was appointed?


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[He's here!]

I guess we could also call out Labour’s double standards on the issue. Did we have an election when McConnnel was appointed?


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Sarwar points that out, referring to Swinney calling it a 'stitch-up' at the time.

[Skol]

What do you know about the next ten years within the UK?

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More than I know if we were independent.

[Just Alf]

I guess we could also call out Labour’s double standards on the issue. Did we have an election when McConnnel was appointed?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think part.of.the problem was with recent UK government PM changes they made changes that weren't in the party manifesto when elected by the populace but were in their personal ones?

If the new Scottish FM keeps going with the policies the electorate voted for.at the last.eleection then morally its fine, IF they decide to deviate from.that then the right thing to do would be to announce a new election.

[Ozyhibby]

I think part.of.the problem was with recent UK government PM changes they made changes that weren't in the party manifesto when elected by the populace but were in their personal ones?

If the new Scottish FM keeps going with the policies the electorate voted for.at the last.eleection then morally its fine, IF they decide to deviate from.that then the right thing to do would be to announce a new election.

I don’t think Forbes or Yousaf have indicated anything that could be called a major change of direction.


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[Kato]

More than I know if we were independent.A great politicians answer ;.)

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[Skol]

A great politicians answer ;.)

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And yours a great interviewers question :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

A great politicians answer ;.)

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Nah, what you’re looking for is:

Well Kato, I’m glad you asked me that question. I’m glad you asked and let me just be absolutely clear on this, our record on being clear about the next ten years is really important. The opposition have had years to sort this and what have we got? Broken promises and empty words. So I just want to be clear about this because it is vitally important, we want to be clear about the next ten years for everyone in this country. No more lies, real clarity for real hard working families.

[Just Alf]

Nah, what you’re looking for is:

Well Kato, I’m glad you asked me that question. I’m glad you asked and let me just be absolutely clear on this, our record on being clear about the next ten years is really important. The opposition have had years to sort this and what have we got? Broken promises and empty words. So I just want to be clear about this because it is vitally important, we want to be clear about the next ten years for everyone in this country. No more lies, real clarity for real hard working families.Ha ha.. I read that with Boris J's voice ringing in my.ears!

To be fair, almost any politician of any party would come.out with similar to a greater or lesser degree at times!

[Kato]

Nah, what you’re looking for is:

Well Kato, I’m glad you asked me that question. I’m glad you asked and let me just be absolutely clear on this, our record on being clear about the next ten years is really important. The opposition have had years to sort this and what have we got? Broken promises and empty words. So I just want to be clear about this because it is vitally important, we want to be clear about the next ten years for everyone in this country. No more lies, real clarity for real hard working families.

It's the coached "Let me be clear", that all of the Tory Party peeps come out with at the start of a sentence which let's you know: they aren't going to be clear, they will fudged the answer they've chosen to give, it might not have any bearing on the subject at all, they might lie, they might mention "the British people" - with an appendix of possibilities; "Putins Illegal War", "we're coming out of world-wide pandemic", "we are helping those most in need through the energy crisis".

Absolute hokum.

People fall for the tone, the confidence and, when it's there, the plummy accent.

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[Callum_62]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65079902?at_format=link&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_id=F5C57C1A-CBED-11ED-8EB3-CDE0D89D5CC3&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign_type=owned&at_medium=social&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow

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[archie]

It's the coached "Let me be clear", that all of the Tory Party peeps come out with at the start of a sentence which let's you know: they aren't going to be clear, they will fudged the answer they've chosen to give, it might not have any bearing on the subject at all, they might lie, they might mention "the British people" - with an appendix of possibilities; "Putins Illegal War", "we're coming out of world-wide pandemic", "we are helping those most in need through the energy crisis".

Absolute hokum.

People fall for the tone, the confidence and, when it's there, the plummy accent.

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I will take no lessons...

[Kato]

I will take no lessons...Already versed?

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[archie]

Already versed?

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Just another politician quite.

[greenlex]

More than I know if we were independent.
Further down the ****ter for sure.

[Stairway 2 7]

Unbelievably only 4% of storm drains are monitored in Scotland so we get useless data. Its revealed 14,000 Olympic swimming pools of sewage is poured into Scottish water each year. Who is going to take responsibility.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/swimming-pools-sewage-scotland-rivers-29583848.amp

Fergal Sharkey is picking up the fight

"Sharkey said: “Scotland’s first problem is simply the sheer scale of the lack of monitoring. But from the few bits of data available… there is just as big a scale of sewage dumping going on in Scotland as there is in England and Wales"

[Moulin Yarns]

Unbelievably only 4% of storm drains are monitored in Scotland so we get useless data. Its revealed 14,000 Olympic swimming pools of sewage is poured into Scottish water each year. Who is going to take responsibility.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/swimming-pools-sewage-scotland-rivers-29583848.amp

Fergal Sharkey is picking up the fight

"Sharkey said: “Scotland’s first problem is simply the sheer scale of the lack of monitoring. But from the few bits of data available… there is just as big a scale of sewage dumping going on in Scotland as there is in England and Wales"

That's the responsibility of SEPA.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's the responsibility of SEPA.

Their targets aims and objectives are decided by Scottish ministers. They are only one of the parties that need to take the blame along with Scottish water but mostly Scottish government.

Just as the Tories are ultimately to blame for the filth in English waters and not just the environmental agency, Scottish government should rightly be getting blasted for this, its disgusting.

[Ozyhibby]

A spokesman for Scottish Water said: “While we acknowledge that our monitoring coverage is not as high as in England and Wales, it is very important to note that 87 per cent of water bodies in Scotland are in good water quality condition and this compares with 16 per cent south of the border.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Their targets aims and objectives are decided by Scottish ministers. They are only one of the parties that need to take the blame along with Scottish water but mostly Scottish government.

Just as the Tories are ultimately to blame for the filth in English waters and not just the environmental agency, Scottish government should rightly be getting blasted for this, its disgusting.

The article is all about the monitoring, and that's 100% on SEPA.

[archie]

The article is all about the monitoring, and that's 100% on SEPA.

Which is a government agency.

[Stairway 2 7]

The article is all about the monitoring, and that's 100% on SEPA.

Sepa's members are chosen by ministers and their objectives are decided by ministers

The article is also about 14,000 swimming pools of ***** being dumped in our water. 12k times sewage was poured into our water. Sepas 87% satisfactory is a nonsense as almost half of sites weren't checked due to poor monitoring. No monitoring on the water of leith, only 350 of 3700 sites are checked.

[Ozyhibby]

Sepa's members are chosen by ministers and their objectives are decided by ministers

The article is also about 14,000 swimming pools of ***** being dumped in our water. 12k times sewage was poured into our water. Sepas 87% satisfactory is a nonsense as almost half of sites weren't checked due to poor monitoring. No monitoring on the water of leith, only 350 of 3700 sites are checked.

It’s outflows that weren’t monitored. The waterways are. The whole story is full of guesswork about levels of pollution. And that’s enough to make the story. Levels of discharge should be monitored more. There was no need to add guesses about how bad things might be.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s outflows that weren’t monitored. The waterways are. The whole story is full of guesswork about levels of pollution. And that’s enough to make the story. Levels of discharge should be monitored more. There was no need to add guesses about how bad things might be.


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It's not guesswork

https://archive.ph/ntAvn
The number of recorded sewage spills in Scotland's rivers and seas has increased by 40% over the last five years, new figures show.
Scottish Water data shows the equivalent of 47,000 Olympic-sized swimming pools worth of waste has been discharged since 2016.

The waterways aren't checked almost half weren't checked last year sepa reluctantly admitted for their 87% figure. They only

https://archive.ph/fwroc

[Stairway 2 7]

Could be a good barometer

British Electoral Politics
@electpoliticsuk

SNP MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West Margaret Ferrier is facing a 30 day suspension from the House of Commons for breaking Covid rules in 2020.

Enough for a recall petition, likely leading to a by-election in one of Labour’s top targets in Scotland

[He's here!]

Could be a good barometer

British Electoral Politics
@electpoliticsuk

SNP MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West Margaret Ferrier is facing a 30 day suspension from the House of Commons for breaking Covid rules in 2020.

Enough for a recall petition, likely leading to a by-election in one of Labour’s top targets in Scotland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65123054

Yes, Ian Murray is certainly pushing for a by-election.

Guess a lot depends on how much damage Ferrier has done to the SNP's reputation in the eyes of constituents by refusing to resign.

[Stairway 2 7]

Her punishment could have implications for boris so I hope it's 30 days and a by-election

ChrisMusson
·

Woah... the SNP member of the Commons Standards Committee, Allan Dorans, joined with 3 Tory MPs to try to reduce the suspension of Margaret Ferrier from 30 days to 9 days - which would have allowed her to keep her seat and avoid a byelection

[Ozyhibby]

Her punishment could have implications for boris so I hope it's 30 days and a by-election

ChrisMusson
·

Woah... the SNP member of the Commons Standards Committee, Allan Dorans, joined with 3 Tory MPs to try to reduce the suspension of Margaret Ferrier from 30 days to 9 days - which would have allowed her to keep her seat and avoid a byelection

Hope it’s 30 days on its own merits.


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[Stairway 2 7]

One poll but similar trend to others shows the direction of travel up to the FM elections. Will be interesting to see the next few post election


British Electoral Politics
@electpoliticsuk
·
36m
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 40% (-2)
LAB: 33% (+3)
CON: 16% (-2)
LDM: 6% (=)

Scottish Parliament Voting Intention:

Constituency:
SNP: 39% (-6)
LAB: 31% (+3)
CON: 14% (-1)
LDM: 8% (+2)
GRN: 6% (+3)

Regional List:
SNP: 32% (-5)
LAB: 27% (+1)
CON: 17% (=)
GRN: 12% (+3)
LDM: 8% (+1)

Via
@PanelbaseMD
, On 7-10 March,
Changes w/ 7-11 October 2022.

[Sergio sledge]

Fergus Ewing fairly ripping into the Bute House agreement today.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/snp-scottish-government-first-minister-humza-yousaf-snp-government-b2312265.html

Here's Ross Greer's response: https://www.thenational.scot/news/23428286.fergus-ewing-calls-end-snp-deal-extremist-greens/

Have to say, despite Ewing's article being pretty scathing and probably needlessly antagonistic, calling the Greens "wine bar psuedo-intellectuals.." it is a lazy response from Greer calling Ewing a Tory and not addressing the pertinent issues raised by Ewing. Many in the Highlands and Islands feel pretty let down by the Bute House agreement and the agenda put forward by the greens particularly around the HMPAs and the carbon credits scheme announced a few weeks ago, but also the prevailing feeling that the delays to the A9 duelling are not entirely accidental with the green party being set against it.

[Ozyhibby]

Fergus Ewing fairly ripping into the Bute House agreement today.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/snp-scottish-government-first-minister-humza-yousaf-snp-government-b2312265.html

Here's Ross Greer's response: https://www.thenational.scot/news/23428286.fergus-ewing-calls-end-snp-deal-extremist-greens/

Have to say, despite Ewing's article being pretty scathing and probably needlessly antagonistic, calling the Greens "wine bar psuedo-intellectuals.." it is a lazy response from Greer calling Ewing a Tory and not addressing the pertinent issues raised by Ewing. Many in the Highlands and Islands feel pretty let down by the Bute House agreement and the agenda put forward by the greens particularly around the HMPAs and the carbon credits scheme announced a few weeks ago, but also the prevailing feeling that the delays to the A9 duelling are not entirely accidental with the green party being set against it.

Beginning to agree with Ewing.


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[Paul1642]

Beginning to agree with Ewing.


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I have said for a long time that the SNPs love in with the Green Party is their biggest mistake.

The majority of the county are not interested in their crap and whilst the core SNP vote might be okay with it, they aren’t gonna gain the votes of undecided voters if they think a vote for SNP = green in govt.

The GRB was pushed by the greens and basically took down sturgeon and caused the division of a once rock solid SNP.

[147lothian]

I have said for a long time that the SNPs love in with the Green Party is their biggest mistake.

The majority of the county are not interested in their crap and whilst the core SNP vote might be okay with it, they aren’t gonna gain the votes of undecided voters if they think a vote for SNP = green in govt.

The GRB was pushed by the greens and basically took down sturgeon and caused the division of a once rock solid SNP.

It's not so long since the greens were accusing the SNP of transphobia

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/green-councillors-brand-snp-as-transphobic-in-a-letter-on-government-talks-3284279

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/new-income-tax-band-proposal-by-humza-yousaf-could-lift-20000-children-out-of-poverty


The only problem is that all the top earners will move to Carlisle and it has to wait until the next budget.

[danhibees1875]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/new-income-tax-band-proposal-by-humza-yousaf-could-lift-20000-children-out-of-poverty


The only problem is that all the top earners will move to Carlisle and it has to wait until the next budget.

There's already a tax band at the level that article quotes - is this just reporting on the change of that tax level from 41% to 42%, or is there more to it?

[Jones28]

Peter Murrell arrested.

Dearie me.

[Mibbes Aye]

So Murrell’s been nicked then. The journey into murk continues.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65187823

[Stairway 2 7]

Peter Murrell arrested.

Dearie me.

Ooft. Rumours were everywhere when Sturgeon stepped down that the arrest was imminent

[Ozyhibby]

Lucky we are shot of him.[emoji106]


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[Pretty Boy]

A shock to absolutely nobody with a few working brain cells.

[He's here!]

https://i0.wp.com/wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/00AA2B3C-AFE8-4745-98A7-D39B71C533B2.jpeg?resize=460%2C286&ssl=1

[hibee]

Now we know the reason for her sudden departure.

[Jones28]

Innocent until proven guilty, but the look is not a good one with NS departing so abruptly.

It's going to be a big challenge for the new first minister to clean this ****ing mess up.

[Stairway 2 7]

Lucky we are shot of him.[emoji106]


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Not a hope in hell Yousaf blocks all shrapnel from it if he gets done. Many still see him as getting Yousaf the job and he is the self professed continuity candidate

[heretoday]

A setback for SNP perhaps but this doesn't dilute the desire for independence. It just shows what a murky business politics is.

[He's here!]

Lucky we are shot of him.[emoji106]


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Yep, this should all blow over in a couple of days...

[One Day Soon]

Not a hope in hell Yousaf blocks all shrapnel from it if he gets done. Many still see him as getting Yousaf the job and he is the self professed continuity candidate


Good job Yousaf didn't describe Murrell as a "born winner" or anything eh?

[One Day Soon]

Yep, this should all blow over in a couple of days...

Nothing to see here...

[Ozyhibby]

Yep, this should all blow over in a couple of days...

Doubt it. SNP members are the victim here though. Party will need to clean house.


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[One Day Soon]

Innocent until proven guilty, but the look is not a good one with NS departing so abruptly.

It's going to be a big challenge for the new first minister to clean this ****ing mess up.


Clean it up? The next set of questions are going to be about who else knew what and when...

[grunt]

Woo hoo!

[He's here!]

A setback for SNP perhaps but this doesn't dilute the desire for independence. It just shows what a murky business politics is.

Really? You don't think the murkiness at the heart of the party leading the independence drive will make people consider whether they're who you'd want running the country?

[He's here!]

Nothing to see here...

Won't be likened to Scotland's own mini-Trump furore at all...

[Jones28]

Clean it up? The next set of questions are going to be about who else knew what and when...

Thats for the police to decide.

[One Day Soon]

Thats for the police to decide.

I think the fourth estate may take a different view...

[Mibbes Aye]

Nothing to see here...

That’s because it’s locked away in a Swiss bank vault 😀

[Jones28]

Really? You don't think the murkiness at the heart of the party leading the independence drive will make people consider whether they're who you'd want running the country?

The SNP are a vehicle for independence for the majority of people I know.

[Jones28]

I think the fourth estate may take a different view...

You think the press are going to paint the SNP in a positive light?

[One Day Soon]

That’s because it’s locked away in a Swiss bank vault 😀


Or heavily invested in Scottish exceptionalism futures.

[GreenGray]

The SNP are a vehicle for independence for the majority of people I know.

Unfortunately this is true, and is exactly what has hindered independence in my opinion. People can’t distinguish between the SNP and an independent Scotland.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Sturgeons home and SNP offices getting raided just now

[One Day Soon]

The SNP are a vehicle for independence for the majority of people I know.


Just not for the majority of Scots - and likely a lot less after this runs its full course. Particularly if it opens the gates to the other much, much murkier stuff which still has not seen the light of day.

[One Day Soon]

You think the press are going to paint the SNP in a positive light?


I think they - and others - are going to want to know who else knew what and when. Difficult time to be a brand new First Minister regarded as the favoured choice of the previous incumbent to the extent that you were comfortable being described as the continuity candidate.

[Jones28]

Just not for the majority of Scots - and likely a lot less after this runs its full course. Particularly if it opens the gates to the other much, much murkier stuff which still has not seen the light of day.


And yet they've dominated in elections for what, 10 years?

Sadly for Independence you're probably right - though I don't know what murkier stuff you're referring to.

[Pretty Boy]

A setback for SNP perhaps but this doesn't dilute the desire for independence. It just shows what a murky business politics is.

It will harm the SNP electorally and as the only realistic route to independence that in turn harms the movement.

It probably won't make a jot of difference to the 'I'll vote SNP regardless of anything until we are independent' type of voter but plenty who have been 'lending' the SNP their vote will be considering looking elsewhere.

For me I'll continue to vote SSP if they stand in my constituency so a socialist vote is registered. If they don't then I'll either hold my nose and vote Labour for the 1st time since 2017 or, as with the last 2 or 3 elections, just not vote at all so no one can claim tacit approval or twist a vote to mean something it doesn't.

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes could be FM quicker than I thought.[emoji1696]


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[Smartie]

Won't be likened to Scotland's own mini-Trump furore at all...

In both cases it's probably worth waiting for a guilty verdict before getting too excited.

I don't know why some of the reaction to this makes me think of this particular Fast Show sketch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZkBbIGwOjw

[One Day Soon]

In both cases it's probably worth waiting for a guilty verdict before getting too excited.

I don't know why some of the reaction to this makes me think of this particular Fast Show sketch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZkBbIGwOjw


I'd say that's about right. For both sentences... :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Forbes could be FM quicker than I thought.[emoji1696]


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I certainly hope so. Lesser and much, much better of two evils.

[Mcbizz1998]

This is, quite simply, marvellous.

Vindication for anyone calling this corrupt cabal over the last few years. Sturgeon resigning voluntarily because she was “tired” - nobody believed that power hungry woman would ever relinquish her position for no reason. Now we know why.

Popcorn anyone?

[hibee]

Sturgeons home and SNP offices getting raided just now

Nice big police tent erected in her front garden too, some of her neighbours have been tweeting photos.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yousaf will be delighted this and the plummeting membership numbers were known after most votes were already cast. I'd doubt the continuity candidate (who won by 1000 votes) would have won otherwise

[Ozyhibby]

Yousaf will be delighted this and the plummeting membership numbers were known after most votes were already cast. I'd doubt the continuity candidate (who won by 1000 votes) would have won otherwise

I agree. Looks like sturgeon timed everything to perfection. Shortened leadership race a big help.


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[grunt]

Particularly if it opens the gates to the other much, much murkier stuff which still has not seen the light of day.
Tell us more about this much, much murkier stuff ...

[Steven79]

This is, quite simply, marvellous.

Vindication for anyone calling this corrupt cabal over the last few years. Sturgeon resigning voluntarily because she was “tired” - nobody believed that power hungry woman would ever relinquish her position for no reason. Now we know why.

Popcorn anyone?I hope they both rot in jail.

Much more to come out over the next few week.

I'm a former SNP voter as well...

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[Mibbes Aye]

As ODS has pointed out, it all boils down to two rather straightforward questions.

Who knew what and when?

And what did Sturgeon know and when?

Murrell’s doesn’t equate to guilt, not yet anyway. But we do know that £600,000 isn’t where it was meant to be. So, question three, where is it?

No quick resolution to all this,

[grunt]

Much more to come out over the next few week.

What are you referring to? Please explain.

[Santa Cruz]

As ODS has pointed out, it all boils down to a rather straightforward question.

Who knew what and when?

And what did Sturgeon know and when?

Murrell’s doesn’t equate to guilt, not yet anyway. But we do know that £600,000 isn’t where it was meant to be. So, question 2, where is it?

No quick resolution to all this,

Is the answer to q2 the front garden? What's the tent all about, it's not a forensic case, or am I missing something?

[Ozyhibby]

As ODS has pointed out, it all boils down to a rather straightforward question.

Who knew what and when?

And what did Sturgeon know and when?

Murrell’s doesn’t equate to guilt, not yet anyway. But we do know that £600,000 isn’t where it was meant to be. So, question 2, where is it?

No quick resolution to all this,

Will take a long time right enough. Could be that Sturgeon resigns her seat which gives us a by-election.
Politically it’s all about Yousaf now though. What did he know (I’m doubtful he knew much) and was there any shenanigans in his election? Those are two biggest questions facing the SNP just now.
The party will cut Sturgeon and Murrel adrift now. That’s the way it goes. Will be as sad for them as it was for Salmond but hey ho.


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[grunt]

But we do know that £600,000 isn’t where it was meant to be. So, question 2, where is it?
Are you saying this is all about £600k? Just shows how small time Scotland is, if there's all this fuss over a paltry £600k. The Tories have been stealing £billions from the country over the last few years and nobody cares a bit. That's how you do corruption.

[Mibbes Aye]

Is the answer to q2 the front garden? What's the tent all about, it's not a forensic case, or am I missing something?

That’s a good answer but not the right one I’m afraid.

Remember, you have two lives left and you’ve still got Phone A Friend.

[Ozyhibby]

Is the answer to q2 the front garden? What's the tent all about, it's not a forensic case, or am I missing something?

People always said Murrel knew where the bodies were buried. [emoji6][emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Is the answer to q2 the front garden? What's the tent all about, it's not a forensic case, or am I missing something?

Humza did say he was going to make the SNP a big tent

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you saying this is all about £600k? Just shows how small time Scotland is, if there's all this fuss over a paltry £600k. The Tories have been stealing £billions from the country over the last few years and nobody cares a bit. That's how you do corruption.

We don’t all “do” corruption, don’t tar us with your brush thanks.

Anyway, I don’t think we have talked about corruption yet. At this stage it feels more like people are talking about “theft” and “fraud”.

[Mibbes Aye]

Humza did say he was going to make the SNP a big tent

😂

[One Day Soon]

Tell us more about this much, much murkier stuff ...


Patience Grunt, patience. No one wants to go prejudicing this and other enquiries...

[archie]

Just not for the majority of Scots - and likely a lot less after this runs its full course. Particularly if it opens the gates to the other much, much murkier stuff which still has not seen the light of day.

I'd strongly advise not taking this part of the discussion any further.

[Just_Jimmy]

Is the answer to q2 the front garden? What's the tent all about, it's not a forensic case, or am I missing something?Probably to keep stuff dry, and stop neighbours filming or taking videos would be a common sense guess.

People going in and out or material included.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Will take a long time right enough. Could be that Sturgeon resigns her seat which gives us a by-election.
Politically it’s all about Yousaf now though. What did he know (I’m doubtful he knew much) and was there any shenanigans in his election? Those are two biggest questions facing the SNP just now.
The party will cut Sturgeon and Murrel adrift now. That’s the way it goes. Will be as sad for them as it was for Salmond but hey ho..


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This is about more than the SNP leadership election though. If they can’t recognise that then they are as guilty of inward-looking self-obsession as I have previously suggested

Will Sturgeon still get her fancy international job everyone was bigging her up for? Or have police asked her to notify them if she intends leaving the country?

[One Day Soon]

I'd strongly advise not taking this part of the discussion any further.

Indeed.

[grunt]

We don’t all “do” corruption, don’t tar us with your brush thanks.Do you have trouble interpreting the written word?


Anyway, I don’t think we have talked about corruption yet. At this stage it feels more like people are talking about “theft” and “fraud”.You don't think that theft and fraud - allegedly perpetrated by someone in a position of authority - is a form of corruption?

[Santa Cruz]

Probably to keep stuff dry, and stop neighbours filming or taking videos would be a common sense guess.

People going in and out or material included.

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Thanks. I'm the sort who has to watch tv programmes at least twice because I miss the obvious clues that everyone else gets the first time they watch. Thought in this case I was missing something, makes sense what you say.

[Ozyhibby]

This is about more than the SNP leadership election though. If they can’t recognise that then they are as guilty of inward-looking self-obsession as I have previously suggested

Will Sturgeon still get her fancy international job everyone was bigging her up for? Or have police asked her to notify them if she intends leaving the country?

I don’t really care about Sturgeons future job prospects to be honest. Would be a loss as a campaigner though.
The party will move on. All parties do.


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[grunt]

I'd strongly advise not taking this part of the discussion any further.


Indeed.
You started it!!

[One Day Soon]

You started it!!

Nope. I alluded to other issues. I'm not describing or discussing them. And there's already plenty in the news at the moment to keep us well occupied for a good while.

Can't imagine any of the current shenanigans are going to make Yousaf's scorecard look too good in next year's Westminster elections.

[Just_Jimmy]

Thanks. I'm the sort who has to watch tv programmes at least twice because I miss the obvious clues that everyone else gets the first time they watch. Thought in this case I was missing something, makes sense what you say.So do I, usually because my wife won't stop talking over it. [emoji1787]

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[One Day Soon]

So do I, usually because my wife won't stop talking over it. [emoji1787]

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Whereas in my case I quite heavily rely on Mrs One Day Soon to explain plot points that I've missed completely.

[Rumble de Thump]

What punishment was handed out after the guilty verdict?

[Since90+2]

What a mess the SNP are in.

[Crunchie]

I don’t really care about Sturgeons future job prospects to be honest. Would be a loss as a campaigner though.
The party will move on. All parties do.


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It'll be more than Sturgeon and her hubby involved in this. Your blase attitude towards this reeks of hypocrisy on your part.

[Mcbizz1998]

What punishment was handed out after the guilty verdict?

Same punishment Sturgeon and her pals dished out to Salmond after his guilty verdict… I presume!?

[Ozyhibby]

It'll be more than Sturgeon and her hubby involved in this. Your blase attitude towards this reeks of hypocrisy on your part.

In what sense? If they have committed a crime then I want them prosecuted. Fully.


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[Bristolhibby]

This is, quite simply, marvellous.

Vindication for anyone calling this corrupt cabal over the last few years. Sturgeon resigning voluntarily because she was “tired” - nobody believed that power hungry woman would ever relinquish her position for no reason. Now we know why.

Popcorn anyone?

Get off the fence mate.

In the grand scheme of scandals the ones I’m more interested in are

PPE money and fast track contracts scandal
Russian influence in U.K. politics.
Track & Trace Money
BREXIT and clear Russian involvement.

If he’s guilty then let’s let justice be served.

I’d like to think the electors are can distinguish between the SNP and Independence.

J

[pollution]

...and I thought Trump's arrest was big news.

Thank God for an independent judiciary.

[Hiber-nation]

Get off the fence mate.

In the grand scheme of scandals the ones I’m more interested in are

PPE money and fast track contracts scandal
Russian influence in U.K. politics.
Track & Trace Money
BREXIT and clear Russian involvement.

If he’s guilty then let’s let justice be served.

J

Yep, the SNP are in an almighty mess but let's not lose sight of these issues which are on another level entirely.

[Crunchie]

Get off the fence mate.

In the grand scheme of scandals the ones I’m more interested in are

PPE money and fast track contracts scandal
Russian influence in U.K. politics.
Track & Trace Money
BREXIT and clear Russian involvement.

If he’s guilty then let’s let justice be served.

I’d like to think the electors are can distinguish between the SNP and Independence.

J
Who else will give them independence? The comments on here are clear on that, get rid and move on regardless. Before her resignation wee nippy was the best thing since sliced bread to the snp hoardes, now it's get rid and move on haha.

[He's here!]

Will take a long time right enough. Could be that Sturgeon resigns her seat which gives us a by-election.
Politically it’s all about Yousaf now though. What did he know (I’m doubtful he knew much) and was there any shenanigans in his election? Those are two biggest questions facing the SNP just now.
The party will cut Sturgeon and Murrel adrift now. That’s the way it goes. Will be as sad for them as it was for Salmond but hey ho.


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Hey ho isn't really going to cut it here. The party is in utter turmoil.

[Keith_M]

Whereas in my case I quite heavily rely on Mrs One Day Soon to explain plot points that I've missed completely.


Could you get her to do a write up for some of the recent Midsomer Murders for me?


Cheers

:aok:

[Mon Dieu4]

Who else will give them independence? The comments on here are clear on that, get rid and move on regardless. Before her resignation wee nippy was the best thing since sliced bread to the snp hoardes, now it's get rid and move on haha.

So in your way of thinking you can't find out new information about someone and change your mind on them?

For what it's worth both Sturgeon and Salmond were pretty much head and shoulders above any other politician of their day, none of any of the information that's come out about either of them since changes that

[Ozyhibby]

Who else will give them independence? The comments on here are clear on that, get rid and move on regardless. Before her resignation wee nippy was the best thing since sliced bread to the snp hoardes, now it's get rid and move on haha.

100% correct. That’s a good thing. It’s not people you should follow. It’s ideas. It’s policy.


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[Ozyhibby]

Hey ho isn't really going to cut it here. The party is in utter turmoil.

It is in turmoil. And soon it won’t be. That’s how it works.


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[He's here!]

Who else will give them independence? The comments on here are clear on that, get rid and move on regardless. Before her resignation wee nippy was the best thing since sliced bread to the snp hoardes, now it's get rid and move on haha.

Indeed. The two are inseparable, so unless those who still think independence would be a good thing find a new vehicle for achieving it their stance is now pretty much reduced to: 'We don't want those shambolic Tory eejits running our country so we're sticking by our own bunch of shambolic SNP eejits.'

[Crunchie]

Indeed. The two are inseparable, so unless those who still think independence would be a good thing find a new vehicle for achieving it their stance is now pretty much reduced to: 'We don't want those shambolic Tory eejits running our country so we're sticking by our own bunch of shambolic SNP eejits.'
:top marks

[Mcbizz1998]

Who else will give them independence? The comments on here are clear on that, get rid and move on regardless. Before her resignation wee nippy was the best thing since sliced bread to the snp hoardes, now it's get rid and move on haha.

I can list lots of issues and scandals that are higher up the agenda than the corruption within the SNP, but that’s beside the point.

Independence has been dead for a long time, despite what some on here like to believe - however, we have a cultish 45% (give or take) who would have voted for the SNP no matter what. They don’t care that this government has failed on virtually every metric - they want an independent Scotland and would vote SNP even if Sturgeon personally shat in their cornflakes every morning.

My hope now, as this case unravels, that some will wake up. I clearly fundamentally disagree with nationalists on independence, that’s fine - but they need to stop voting for this corrupt, dangerously “progressive” cabal and find a new avenue towards independence. I’m not sure there is anywhere for them to go though, so it will likely continue.

[Steven79]

I can list lots of issues and scandals that are higher up the agenda than the corruption within the SNP, but that’s beside the point.

Independence has been dead for a long time, despite what some on here like to believe - however, we have a cultish 45% (give or take) who would have voted for the SNP no matter what. They don’t care that this government has failed on virtually every metric - they want an independent Scotland and would vote SNP even if Sturgeon personally shat in their cornflakes every morning.

My hope now, as this case unravels, that some will wake up. I clearly fundamentally disagree with nationalists on independence, that’s fine - but they need to stop voting for this corrupt, dangerously “progressive” cabal and find a new avenue towards independence. I’m not sure there is anywhere for them to go though, so it will likely continue.And what about Unionists voting for a even more corrupt bunch?

We are being shafted on all sides and it's time we took our country back in the hands of Scots that want for the best for Scotland and it's people not corrupt politicians that are only looking out for themselves...

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[Jones28]

Indeed. The two are inseparable, so unless those who still think independence would be a good thing find a new vehicle for achieving it their stance is now pretty much reduced to: 'We don't want those shambolic Tory eejits running our country so we're sticking by our own bunch of shambolic SNP eejits.'

Well as someone who fits that bill I would suggest that firstly, the 2 WILL be a separate issue once Independence is achieved. After Indy I would more likely vote independently, or for whichever party suited my agenda.

The SNP are, to me and many others, a vehicle for Indy and no more. FWIW I liked Sturgeon, I thought she most of the Covid stuff right, but made mistakes too.

Re your point about shambolic eejits, the difference is that are the Conservative party in Westminster aren't shambolic, they're so brazen and transparent in their self interest that comparing the two is a bit laughable to be honest.

Having said that, this is no excuse for what has been going on here. Glass houses and stones etc.

[Just Alf]

Yousaf will be delighted this and the plummeting membership numbers were known after most votes were already cast. I'd doubt the continuity candidate (who won by 1000 votes) would have won otherwiseYeah... wasn't it the case it was the 2nd choice votes that meant he scraped over the line?

[WhileTheChief..]

Yep, the SNP are in an almighty mess but let's not lose sight of these issues which are on another level entirely.

Cool, there’s plenty of threads to discuss them, this one’s for the SNP.

You can’t excuse the SNPs actions by pointing to the Tories and shouting “but they did worse”.

That’s not going to cut it any longer.

[SHODAN]

Unionist coalition at Holyrood in 2026, followed by a deliberate stripping away of all the things devolution has given us to make independence as unattractive as possible. Ross or whoever the Tory deputy leader is might fancy a cheeky wee referendum on scrapping Holyrood altogether too.

Thanks, Sturgeon. Thought there might be one politician that wasn't as corrupt at the rest of them.

[marinello59]

Predictable maybe :greengrin

26648

[Since90+2]

Yeah... wasn't it the case it was the 2nd choice votes that meant he scraped over the line?

He got more 1st choice votes than Regan & Forbes.

[Berwickhibby]

What I am having trouble understanding is why the police have erected a forensic tent if they are only looking for documents 🤷*♂️

[Kato]

What I am having trouble understanding is why the police have erected a forensic tent if they are only looking for documents [emoji1745]*[emoji3603]Got to make a show.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Whereas in my case I quite heavily rely on Mrs One Day Soon to explain plot points that I've missed completely.

It was Murrell. In the study. With the mask, stripit t-shirt and a bag labelled 'LOOT' :agree:

[SteveHFC]

Predictable maybe :greengrin

26648

Stolen from elsewhere.

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2023_04/image.png.59d1788b49ab49da1c613bd8726ff1a0.png

[Mcbizz1998]

And what about Unionists voting for a even more corrupt bunch?

We are being shafted on all sides and it's time we took our country back in the hands of Scots that want for the best for Scotland and it's people not corrupt politicians that are only looking out for themselves...

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You could have disguised your whataboutery a bit better by avoiding actually using ‘and what about’ at the start of the sentence! [emoji3]

[Mibbes Aye]

Do you have trouble interpreting the written word?

You don't think that theft and fraud - allegedly perpetrated by someone in a position of authority - is a form of corruption?

Multiple definitions of all those terms so you could argue it in any direction.

In politics, in our current age, I would suggest 'corruption' is generally used about personal gain derived from bribery, inducements etc. That makes it different from theft and fraud, where the personal gain is achieved by the miscreant themself.

Of course, if you are arguing that Murrell and even Sturgeon are morally corrupt or morally bankrupt, say, I would have to ponder that. I will let you know the outcome of my deliberations :agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

So in your way of thinking you can't find out new information about someone and change your mind on them?

For what it's worth both Sturgeon and Salmond were pretty much head and shoulders above any other politician of their day, none of any of the information that's come out about either of them since changes that

Not literally :greengrin

As for metaphorically, no. They were good tacticians early on, but if Sturgeon ever had a strategy it fell apart or got lost. As for Salmond, the thing that stood out for me most was that when he had male opponents he could outspar them often. When it was female opponents he was poor. Annabel Goldie regularly pricked his pomposity and given where her party was at, that shouldn't have been possible.

[Mibbes Aye]

It is in turmoil. And soon it won’t be. That’s how it works.


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You are doing a great job typing while simultaneously ccrossing your fingers :greengrin

[grunt]

You can’t excuse the SNPs actions by pointing to the Tories and shouting “but they did worse”.
That’s not going to cut it any longer.
Why not? Seems a reasonable approach to me.

[grunt]

Thanks, Sturgeon. Thought there might be one politician that wasn't as corrupt at the rest of them.
Has she been arrested too?

[Berwickhibby]

I seem to recall recently that many posters on here were defending Murrell and the missing £600k that was ring fenced, with great explanations on how the money did not have to be physically in possession or in a bank….but would appear when required :faf::faf: funny the Polis and the Fiscal who is lead on this investigation think otherwise

[WhileTheChief..]

A lot of SNP supporters / voters are probably feeling really let down by recent events, and rightly so.

We had years of Sturgeon and Blackford preaching to everyone. Let's see what they've got to say now, if anything. The days of them being able to mock those of who don't want Indy are over.

If you're going to slate everyone else, you really need to make sure your own house is in order first.

[JeMeSouviens]

It was Murrell. In the study. With the mask, stripit t-shirt and a bag labelled 'LOOT' :agree:

Swag, surely? He's not an amateur. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

A lot of SNP supporters / voters are probably feeling really let down by recent events, and rightly so.

We had years of Sturgeon and Blackford preaching to everyone. Let's see what they've got to say now, if anything. The days of them being able to mock those of who don't want Indy are over.

If you're going to slate everyone else, you really need to make sure your own house is in order first.

Who? SNP voters? Fwiw, I still think an independent Scotland in the EU is by far the best (somewhat achievable) option to a better society here in the long term. Hope that helps.

[He's here!]

I seem to recall recently that many posters on here were defending Murrell and the missing £600k that was ring fenced, with great explanations on how the money did not have to be physically in possession or in a bank….but would appear when required :faf::faf: funny the Polis and the Fiscal who is lead on this investigation think otherwise

'Woven through the accounts' was the fudged explanation.

[Mibbes Aye]

Swag, surely? He's not an amateur. :rolleyes:

Probably. It did have big dollar signs on it though!

[Just Alf]

He got more 1st choice votes than Regan & Forbes.Cheers, must've misread it..

[WeeRussell]

Well as someone who fits that bill I would suggest that firstly, the 2 WILL be a separate issue once Independence is achieved. After Indy I would more likely vote independently, or for whichever party suited my agenda.

The SNP are, to me and many others, a vehicle for Indy and no more. FWIW I liked Sturgeon, I thought she most of the Covid stuff right, but made mistakes too.

Re your point about shambolic eejits, the difference is that are the Conservative party in Westminster aren't shambolic, they're so brazen and transparent in their self interest that comparing the two is a bit laughable to be honest.

Having said that, this is no excuse for what has been going on here. Glass houses and stones etc.

100% 👍

[JeMeSouviens]

Cheers, must've misread it..

He got 48% to Forbes 40% 1st pref, 52-48 once Ash Regan's votes were redistributed. You had to get over 50% to win 1st round.

[Kato]

A lot of SNP supporters / voters are probably feeling really let down by recent events, and rightly so.

We had years of Sturgeon and Blackford preaching to everyone. Let's see what they've got to say now, if anything. The days of them being able to mock those of who don't want Indy are over.

If you're going to slate everyone else, you really need to make sure your own house is in order first.Will you be voting Tory again?

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[He's here!]

Tweet from the recently-retired general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation:

https://i0.wp.com/wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/calums.jpg?resize=460%2C141&ssl=1

Certainly true to say that few journalists were bold enough to dip their toes in this murky story when Sturgeon was still in her pomp. The party's implosion since her unexpected (maybe less so in the light of today's developments) resignation has been more spectacular than even its biggest opponents could have hoped for.

[The Harp Awakes]

Indeed. The two are inseparable, so unless those who still think independence would be a good thing find a new vehicle for achieving it their stance is now pretty much reduced to: 'We don't want those shambolic Tory eejits running our country so we're sticking by our own bunch of shambolic SNP eejits.'

To date, the strategy of unionist parties to keep the independence 'wolf' from the door, has been entirely focused on defeating the SNP.

I've always thought that was a flawed strategy. Unionists would have been much more successful in their cause by putting forward a positive case for the Union and winning over the hearts and minds of the ~50% of Scots who want independence.

The SNP right now are clearly in turmoil, but do unionists like yourself really believe that ~50% of Scots are just going to give up and go away? If so, then more fool you. Personally, it just makes me more determined to find a route through to independence. One thing is for sure, I will never vote for a unionist party again as a result of the deceitful way they acted during the 2014 referendum.

The SNP were always a vehicle to achieving independence. If a vehicle stutters or breaks down, it will either be repaired and keep going or be replaced.

The current turmoil in the SNP has probably set the delivery timetable for independence back a year or two. In truth though, I think the independence cause needed some time to refocus in any case.

Enjoy your glee and popcorn while it lasts :aok:

[WeeRussell]

Indeed. Sturgeon. Murky. SNP. Pomp. Sturgeon. Implosion. SNP. Fudged. Sturgeon.

Am I doing this right?

[Curried]

I understand Murrell has been arrested, but has he actually been charged with any offence?

[grunt]

I understand Murrell has been arrested, but has he actually been charged with any offence?According to some on here, he's been found guilty already.

[Mibbes Aye]

Indeed. Sturgeon. Murky. SNP. Pomp. Sturgeon. Implosion. SNP. Fudged. Sturgeon.

Am I doing this right?

Do a Wordcloud, you know you want to 😀

[Mibbes Aye]

According to some on here, he's been found guilty already.

No one has said he has been found guilty. He’s not been charged with anything yet.

Unless you know something! Spill!!

[Mcbizz1998]

To date, the strategy of unionist parties to keep the independence 'wolf' from the door, has been entirely focused on defeating the SNP.

I've always thought that was a flawed strategy. Unionists would have been much more successful in their cause by putting forward a positive case for the Union and winning over the hearts and minds of the ~50% of Scots who want independence.

The SNP right now are clearly in turmoil, but do unionists like yourself really believe that ~50% of Scots are just going to give up and go away? If so, then more fool you. Personally, it just makes me more determined to find a route through to independence. One thing is for sure, I will never vote for a unionist party again as a result of the deceitful way they acted during the 2014 referendum.

The SNP were always a vehicle to achieving independence. If a vehicle stutters or breaks down, it will either be repaired and keep going or be replaced.

The current turmoil in the SNP has probably set the delivery timetable for independence back a year or two. In truth though, I think the independence cause needed some time to refocus in any case.

Enjoy your glee and popcorn while it lasts :aok:

It’s over mate, you lost.

[He's here!]

Well as someone who fits that bill I would suggest that firstly, the 2 WILL be a separate issue once Independence is achieved. After Indy I would more likely vote independently, or for whichever party suited my agenda.

The SNP are, to me and many others, a vehicle for Indy and no more. FWIW I liked Sturgeon, I thought she most of the Covid stuff right, but made mistakes too.

Re your point about shambolic eejits, the difference is that are the Conservative party in Westminster aren't shambolic, they're so brazen and transparent in their self interest that comparing the two is a bit laughable to be honest.

Having said that, this is no excuse for what has been going on here. Glass houses and stones etc.

Is a lack of transparency when it comes to self-interest any more laudable? His lies about the membership figures led to Murrell's resignation, while his lack of transparency over the 'ring-fenced funds' appears to have led to his arrest.

I find this 'just a vehicle for indy' line hard to swallow incidentally. It seems little more than a way of sidestepping criticism of the SNP because, hey, it's only independence that matters no matter how clapped-out the vehicle which drives it may be.

[Kato]

To date, the strategy of unionist parties to keep the independence 'wolf' from the door, has been entirely focused on defeating the SNP.

I've always thought that was a flawed strategy. Unionists would have been much more successful in their cause by putting forward a positive case for the Union and winning over the hearts and minds of the ~50% of Scots who want independence.

The SNP right now are clearly in turmoil, but do unionists like yourself really believe that ~50% of Scots are just going to give up and go away? If so, then more fool you. Personally, it just makes me more determined to find a route through to independence. One thing is for sure, I will never vote for a unionist party again as a result of the deceitful way they acted during the 2014 referendum.

The SNP were always a vehicle to achieving independence. If a vehicle stutters or breaks down, it will either be repaired and keep going or be replaced.

The current turmoil in the SNP has probably set the delivery timetable for independence back a year or two. In truth though, I think the independence cause needed some time to refocus in any case.

Enjoy your glee and popcorn while it lasts :aok:As I've said a few times on here I've never been a fan of the SNP. When I was younger they were rammed with weirdos. I can't remember but I may have voted for them once inthe 80s as a protest vote. I voted similarly for the Communist Party in Edinburgh East which was just to piss off the SWP guy who I knew and he was a pompous ass.

I voted SNP in the last election which is the first time I consciously voted for them to win. Will reconsider that when the election comes around. I feel for those SNP followers who have been let down by Murrel. Whatever books he's cooked he is out of order.



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[Kato]

Is a lack of transparency when it comes to self-interest any more laudable? His lies about the membership figures led to Murrell's resignation, while his lack of transparency over the 'ring-fenced funds' appears to have led to his arrest.

I find this 'just a vehicle for indy' line hard to swallow incidentally. It seems little more than a way of sidestepping criticism of the SNP because, hey, it's only independence that matters no matter how clapped-out the vehicle which drives it may be.You see the Tories/Labour as a vehicle against independence, just switch the tactic around - that will help you understand why some people vote for the SNP whilst not necessarily wanting them to run an independent Scotland for ever more.

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