SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/13/uk-government-poised-to-block-scottish-bottle-recycling-scheme

England says no. Again.


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England falls in line with the general view of Forbes, Yousaf and Regan :greengrin

[He's here!]

England falls in line with the general view of Forbes, Yousaf and Regan :greengrin

Indeed. They'd actually be doing the SG a favour by blocking it. Save them the embarrassment of the further delays and excuses to come.

[archie]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/13/uk-government-poised-to-block-scottish-bottle-recycling-scheme

England says no. Again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Westminster, not England.

[grunt]

Westminster, not England.

Effectively the same thing.

[archie]

Effectively the same thing.

Don't be silly!

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/kvisleis/status/1635581639081295872?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64952272

NASUWT narrowly accepts pay offer which means strike action is at an end, at least for now. Good news.

[grunt]

Don't be silly!

What's silly about it?

[archie]

What's silly about it?

Because the Parliament is for the whole UK.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64952272

NASUWT narrowly accepts pay offer which means strike action is at an end, at least for now. Good news.

At least for now?


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[grunt]

Because the Parliament is for the whole UK.Once the four national boundary reviews are completed in 2023, England is set to have 543 MPs, Wales 32, a loss of eight, and Scotland 57, a decrease of two.

So with 543 MPs in England, what they say, goes. Even if every Scottish MP from whatever party voted against something that English MPs wanted, we couldn't win the vote. Westminster is England.

[He's here!]

At least for now?


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Best deal the unions could achieve at present and they have (rightly IMHO) accepted it. But I know there remains disquiet (not just among the more 'militant' NASUWT) that the offer still falls well below inflation. They still want to resolve that and reinstate the value of teachers' salaries.How that plays out remains to be seen.

[Smartie]

Best deal the unions could achieve at present and they have (rightly IMHO) accepted it. But I know there remains disquiet (not just among the more 'militant' NASUWT) that the offer still falls well below inflation. They still want to resolve that and reinstate the value of teachers' salaries.How that plays out remains to be seen.

I think there's going to be continuing disquiet for a bit longer. The complaints about pay increases being less than inflation aren't unreasonable but it's harder to see where the money comes from to pay for public sector pay increases in line with inflation.

Below I'll link to article written a few months ago by a business coach who advises dentists (a big part of the advice he gives tends to revolve around abandoning the sinking ship that is the NHS). These are the pay increases that Sainsbury's are awarding their staff. The way they'll pay for it will be by increasing their prices, the prices paid by the teachers etc. Unfortunately the governments on both sides of the border just won't have the same sort of flexibility / wiggle room to raise funds to pay the increased wages to keep up with inflation.

It's a mess and I don't know what the solution is. All I do know is that irrespective of anyone's political views, it's not in anybody's interests to have ambulance drivers, teachers, firefighters etc on strike - we all need them to be adequately paid and happy enough being able to do their best in their jobs, and it's terrible state of affairs when they cannot.

Now I think of it - the taxes on record profits, then the income tax paid on increased pay for employees at the supermarkets will probably be a starting point when it comes to raising cash to award public sector pay increases in line with inflation.

https://www.coachbarrow.com/post/sainsbury-increase-staff-pay-for-the-third-time-in-12-months

[He's here!]

I think there's going to be continuing disquiet for a bit longer. The complaints about pay increases being less than inflation aren't unreasonable but it's harder to see where the money comes from to pay for public sector pay increases in line with inflation.

Below I'll link to article written a few months ago by a business coach who advises dentists (a big part of the advice he gives tends to revolve around abandoning the sinking ship that is the NHS). These are the pay increases that Sainsbury's are awarding their staff. The way they'll pay for it will be by increasing their prices, the prices paid by the teachers etc. Unfortunately the governments on both sides of the border just won't have the same sort of flexibility / wiggle room to raise funds to pay the increased wages to keep up with inflation.

It's a mess and I don't know what the solution is. All I do know is that irrespective of anyone's political views, it's not in anybody's interests to have ambulance drivers, teachers, firefighters etc on strike - we all need them to be adequately paid and happy enough being able to do their best in their jobs, and it's terrible state of affairs when they cannot.

Now I think of it - the taxes on record profits, then the income tax paid on increased pay for employees at the supermarkets will probably be a starting point when it comes to raising cash to award public sector pay increases in line with inflation.

https://www.coachbarrow.com/post/sainsbury-increase-staff-pay-for-the-third-time-in-12-months

Cheers.

Of course, if you're a boss at the Ferguson shipyard you simply bypass the SG and award yourself a hefty bonus:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-64954744

[WeeRussell]

At least for now?


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Yes. HH can speak for every teacher in the country because he’s worked in the same building as a few and he knows they’re all still pure raging at the SNP and will strike again very soon.

Or he’s desperately trolling about the SNP again seeing as the Lineker thread has died down.

[greenginger]

Once the four national boundary reviews are completed in 2023, England is set to have 543 MPs, Wales 32, a loss of eight, and Scotland 57, a decrease of two.

So with 543 MPs in England, what they say, goes. Even if every Scottish MP from whatever party voted against something that English MPs wanted, we couldn't win the vote. Westminster is England.

MP’s vote on party lines not on country lines.

[archie]

Once the four national boundary reviews are completed in 2023, England is set to have 543 MPs, Wales 32, a loss of eight, and Scotland 57, a decrease of two.

So with 543 MPs in England, what they say, goes. Even if every Scottish MP from whatever party voted against something that English MPs wanted, we couldn't win the vote. Westminster is England.
The assumption underpinning this is that MPs for English constituencies vote as a homogeneous block. That is, of course, nonsense.

[grunt]

The assumption underpinning this is that MPs for English constituencies vote as a homogeneous block. That is, of course, nonsense.
If England wants something, it gets it.

[archie]

If England wants something, it gets it.

England isn't a block. I know you are trying to set up a Scotland England thing here. People in Aberdeen argue that if the central belt wants something they get it. Is that also the case?

[grunt]

England isn't a block. I know you are trying to set up a Scotland England thing here. People in Aberdeen argue that if the central belt wants something they get it. Is that also the case?
Ozy said England blocked Scottish Govt policy.
You said Westminster, not England.
I said same difference.
England / Westminster blocked Scottish Govt policy.

[archie]

Ozy said England blocked Scottish Govt policy.
You said Westminster, not England.
I said same difference.
England / Westminster blocked Scottish Govt policy.

It's not the same. I don't think it's healthy to reduce it to a Scotland England thing. Would you say the same about Aberdonians saying central belt blocked something in the Scottish Parliament?

[He's here!]

Yes. HH can speak for every teacher in the country because he’s worked in the same building as a few and he knows they’re all still pure raging at the SNP and will strike again very soon.

Or he’s desperately trolling about the SNP again seeing as the Lineker thread has died down.

I can't speak for every teacher in the country (though my job has taken me from Aberdeen and Dundee to Glasgow and Edinburgh so I've probably worked with a few hundred down the years) but you certainly seem to think you can speak for me. If my opinions irritate you so much you can always block me ;-)

Pointing out that teaching unions are disillusioned enough with the SG to have launched their first strikes in 40 years isn't what I'd describe as trolling

[grunt]

It's not the same. I don't think it's healthy to reduce it to a Scotland England thing. Would you say the same about Aberdonians saying central belt blocked something in the Scottish Parliament?
Nonsense argument. As you well know, Aberdeen isn't a separate country with its own Parliament and laws. This is bordering on troll-like behaviour.

[grunt]

Pointing out that teaching unions are disillusioned enough with the SG to have launched their first strikes in 40 years isn't what I'd describe as trollingGenuine question: is the teachers disillusionment solely with the SG, or does their concern extend to their treatment by the wider UK Government (in terms of cost of living, energy costs etc)?

[Smartie]

Genuine question: is the teachers disillusionment solely with the SG, or does their concern extend to their treatment by the wider UK Government (in terms of cost of living, energy costs etc)?

Not wishing to answer for HH here (I will anyway) but I always find it really hard to sum up the thoughts of tens of thousands of people or make sweeping generalisations.

Within the teaching profession you'll have the ones who are avidly anti-SNP and allow it to judge their opinions and you'll also have the avidly pro-independence ones who will think the SNP can do no wrong and will wish to put the blame on the Tories and whitewash the SNP of as much responsibility as possible.

I don't work in teaching but in my line of work I'd fully confess to being an outlier, so trying to sum up the thoughts and feelings of a large group of people whose opinion I don't really share can be a bit of a challenge.

[archie]

Nonsense argument. As you well know, Aberdeen isn't a separate country with its own Parliament and laws. This is bordering on troll-like behaviour.

It's the very opposite of troll like behaviour. The UK is a unitary state. Scotland is not a separate country. The argument you are making is exactly the same as some Aberdonians make about the Scottish Parliament. So either they are both valid or both invalid.

[grunt]

Aberdeen isn't a separate country with its own Parliament and laws.


Scotland is not a separate country.
Bit of a Sunak-like political reply there.

[archie]

Bit of a Sunak-like political reply there.

I have no idea what this means.

[WeeRussell]

Not wishing to answer for HH here (I will anyway) but I always find it really hard to sum up the thoughts of tens of thousands of people or make sweeping generalisations.

Within the teaching profession you'll have the ones who are avidly anti-SNP and allow it to judge their opinions and you'll also have the avidly pro-independence ones who will think the SNP can do no wrong and will wish to put the blame on the Tories and whitewash the SNP of as much responsibility as possible.

I don't work in teaching but in my line of work I'd fully confess to being an outlier, so trying to sum up the thoughts and feelings of a large group of people whose opinion I don't really share can be a bit of a challenge.

… and there’s a genuine answer.

[Mibbes Aye]

Once the four national boundary reviews are completed in 2023, England is set to have 543 MPs, Wales 32, a loss of eight, and Scotland 57, a decrease of two.

So with 543 MPs in England, what they say, goes. Even if every Scottish MP from whatever party voted against something that English MPs wanted, we couldn't win the vote. Westminster is England.

It almost makes you wonder why nearly fifty SNP MPs bother with it

And take the good salary, the very comfortable pension, the healthy staffing and expense account, the chance to sit on select committees, the chance to get on national TV on a regular basis. Let alone the APPGs.

One SNP MP has to manage being vice-chair of the APPG on the British Virgin Islands as well as the APPG on pubs. As well as 55 other APPG memberships, including the Pacific Islands, Japan and Switzerland. How she copes with that I do not know. And all that for a vote that doesn’t matter in parliament!

As I say, it almost makes you wonder why they bother with it, given you say it is such a waste of time. Almost.

[greenginger]

If England wants something, it gets it.

I’m sure England wants the extra £2000 per head funding that Scotland enjoys, but I don’t think they’ve got it yet.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m sure England wants the extra £2000 per head funding that Scotland enjoys, but I don’t think they’ve got it yet.

If England want to spend an extra £2000 on their public services all they need to do is vote for it. Not a luxury we have.


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[Mibbes Aye]

If England want to spend an extra £2000 on their public services all they need to do is vote for it. Not a luxury we have.


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I see the point you are making here Ozy. Do nothing and reap the 'Union dividend'.

Be careful though, my friend. Some of your fellow party members won't see the big picture like you do :greengrin

[greenginger]

The
If England want to spend an extra £2000 on their public services all they need to do is vote for it. Not a luxury we have.


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Yep, and the Barnet consequential will immediately increase Scotland’s spending by an equivalent amount.

[Ozyhibby]

The

Yep, and the Barnet consequential will immediately increase Scotland’s spending by an equivalent amount.

Amazingly, if the people of England want to stop that too, they can do so.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Saw Scotland is getting an extra 300 mil from Barnet in the budget. The more they idiots waste on nonsense the better for us

[archie]

Amazingly, if the people of England want to stop that too, they can do so.


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It's not the people of England.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not the people of England.

Really?


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[archie]

Really?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup.

[grunt]

I have no idea what this means.It means you replied to half my statement and left out the bit that was difficult for you.

But then you know that. You're just a troll. Bye.

[J-C]

It's not the people of England.


Well the people of Scotland don't hold the power in Westminster, the huge majority of MP's are English, infact 533 out of 650.

[archie]

It means you replied to half my statement and left out the bit that was difficult for you.

But then you know that. You're just a troll. Bye.

What on earth are you talking about?

[archie]

Well the people of Scotland don't hold the power in Westminster, the huge majority of MP's are English, infact 533 out of 650.

It's the UK Parliament.

[J-C]

It's the UK Parliament.

Doh! Really, it's a wee tad biased don't you think, where's the balance in voting.

[archie]

Doh! Really, it's a wee tad biased don't you think, where's the balance in voting.

No. It's a simple fact. Again you are implying that MPs from English constituencies vote as a homogeneous block. At best that makes no sense and at worst it's a pretty ugly sentiment.

[Jack]

No. It's a simple fact. Again you are implying that MPs from English constituencies vote as a homogeneous block. At best that makes no sense and at worst it's a pretty ugly sentiment.

English MPs will vote for what's best for their constituency/region/country, and so they should. That is not necessarily best for the devolved nations.

That leaves the MPs for the devolved nations massively outvoted and therefore dependent on the needs and wishes of the English people and their policies before considering how devolved policies and spending can be formulated.

[archie]

English MPs will vote for what's best for their constituency/region/country, and so they should. That is not necessarily best for the devolved nations.

That leaves the MPs for the devolved nations massively outvoted and therefore dependent on the needs and wishes of the English people and their policies before considering how devolved policies and spending can be formulated.

That's a slightly different take to what some have been arguing here. But again it falls into the trap of seeing things through an English, Scottish, Welsh or NI prism. It totally ignores things like economic interests. It also fundamentally ignores that MPs do not vote on whether they are from England, Scotland etc. By that logic Mhari Black and Douglas Ross would vote together for Scotland's interests. They don't because they have different philosophical views on what Scotland interests are. And that applies across Westminster.

I posted yesterday about the complaint from Aberdeen that central belt interests dominate in Holyrood. Do you think that is an issue too?

[He's here!]

Not wishing to answer for HH here (I will anyway) but I always find it really hard to sum up the thoughts of tens of thousands of people or make sweeping generalisations.

Within the teaching profession you'll have the ones who are avidly anti-SNP and allow it to judge their opinions and you'll also have the avidly pro-independence ones who will think the SNP can do no wrong and will wish to put the blame on the Tories and whitewash the SNP of as much responsibility as possible.

I don't work in teaching but in my line of work I'd fully confess to being an outlier, so trying to sum up the thoughts and feelings of a large group of people whose opinion I don't really share can be a bit of a challenge.

I take your point, but when you've been working in a particular industry/profession for a long number of years you can form a relatively well-informed view.

It's not as black and white as to divide opinions along political lines. Most rational-thinking colleagues are not so blinkered in their political allegiances that they would refuse to countenance criticism of the Scottish government even if they are staunch SNP voters. For example, the head teacher of the school I've most recently been working in is a passionate backer of independence and was a Sturgeon devotee, but regards Somerville as an imbecile and puts her colleagues' wellbeing ahead of how she'll vote at the ballot box.

Many, of course, simply don't get involved when the staffroom chat turns to politics. Like any workplace but particularly, I would suggest, in an educational environment, it's crucial that colleagues are aligned when it comes to performing their primary role as effectively as possible.

[He's here!]

That's a slightly different take to what some have been arguing here. But again it falls into the trap of seeing things through an English, Scottish, Welsh or NI prism. It totally ignores things like economic interests. It also fundamentally ignores that MPs do not vote on whether they are from England, Scotland etc. By that logic Mhari Black and Douglas Ross would vote together for Scotland's interests. They don't because they have different philosophical views on what Scotland interests are. And that applies across Westminster.

I posted yesterday about the complaint from Aberdeen that central belt interests dominate in Holyrood. Do you think that is an issue too?

That's it in a nutshell.

Personally thought it was a mistake to abolish England's regional assemblies.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's a slightly different take to what some have been arguing here. But again it falls into the trap of seeing things through an English, Scottish, Welsh or NI prism. It totally ignores things like economic interests. It also fundamentally ignores that MPs do not vote on whether they are from England, Scotland etc. By that logic Mhari Black and Douglas Ross would vote together for Scotland's interests. They don't because they have different philosophical views on what Scotland interests are. And that applies across Westminster.

I posted yesterday about the complaint from Aberdeen that central belt interests dominate in Holyrood. Do you think that is an issue too?

It is. Or at a more micro level that Inverness interests dominate Highland. It is beyond ridiculous that "local" government stretches from Ardnamurchan to Caithness!

[archie]

It is. Or at a more micro level that Inverness interests dominate Highland. It is beyond ridiculous that "local" government stretches from Ardnamurchan to Caithness!

It's an interesting debate. The old district and regional council structures could be argued as top heavy, but they allowed for the grouping of services at a more granular level. Issues with a particularly local focus like housing were at district level, whereas services that benefited from economies of scale, like social work and education, were at a regional level. Argyll used to be cited as an area that benefitted from standards being raised because of the wider experience of Glasgow being in the same region. I think that would address some of the points you raise, but I don't think it could be justified on over governance grounds. Is there a case for more councils but with shared services for certain functions?

[Jack]

That's a slightly different take to what some have been arguing here. But again it falls into the trap of seeing things through an English, Scottish, Welsh or NI prism. It totally ignores things like economic interests. It also fundamentally ignores that MPs do not vote on whether they are from England, Scotland etc. By that logic Mhari Black and Douglas Ross would vote together for Scotland's interests. They don't because they have different philosophical views on what Scotland interests are. And that applies across Westminster.

I posted yesterday about the complaint from Aberdeen that central belt interests dominate in Holyrood. Do you think that is an issue too?

You're missing a fundamental point as is your way with your posts.

[archie]

You're missing a fundamental point as is your way with your posts.

And that point is?

[Jack]

And that point is?

You regularly miss fundamental points when they don't suit.

[archie]

You regularly miss fundamental points when they don't suit.

That's just getting personal now Jack. So the fundamental point is?

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64978689

Shock.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64978689

Shock.

Someone will be along shortly to paint on the windows :faf:

[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64978689

Shock.

Just when you think our Islanders have suffered enough. There are real consequences for peoples lives because of this absolute farce. And still nobody takes responsibility.

[xyz23jc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64978689

Shock.

The shock is it's on the BBC website... Aye? :wink::greengrin

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/keir-starmer-claims-snp-falling-29479637

'SNP lurching to right and falling apart, claims Starmer'

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/keir-starmer-claims-snp-falling-29479637

'SNP lurching to right and falling apart, claims Starmer'

He would say that. Also has a veiled pop at the Scottish branch and shows a bit disregard for Donald Dewar's devolution settlement.

And if he thinks any SNP leaver is going to join Labour he needs his head looked.

Next!

[Santa Cruz]

He would say that. Also has a veiled pop at the Scottish branch and shows a bit disregard for Donald Dewar's devolution settlement.

And if he thinks any SNP leaver is going to join Labour he needs his head looked.

Next!

Do you think SNP leavers have joined Alba?

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think SNP leavers have joined Alba?

Probably haven’t joined anywhere and are still there to be won back over by a new SNP leader. I think they still vote SNP.


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[weecounty hibby]

Do you think SNP leavers have joined Alba?

I don't. I think the vast majority have just gone back to being yessers who aren't party members, i know a handful who are in that camp. Theyll still vote SNP and still want independence but are no longer party members.

[Rumble de Thump]

What are the benefits of being a member of a political party? Is it just getting to vote on leadership contests?

[Santa Cruz]

Probably haven’t joined anywhere and are still there to be won back over by a new SNP leader. I think they still vote SNP.


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You might be right. I was more thinking if you're a member of any party, that indicates you are more interested in politics than your more typical voter who just places a vote. If you then leave for whatever reason but still hold strong political views, I would have thought you move your vote to a party who supports issues you most align with. At the same time showing you protest against the party you were a member of but feel let down by.

[He's here!]

He would say that. Also has a veiled pop at the Scottish branch and shows a bit disregard for Donald Dewar's devolution settlement.

And if he thinks any SNP leaver is going to join Labour he needs his head looked.

Next!

Yes he would say that, but with the SNP in a mess now's the time to capitalise - and he does acknowledge the mass exodus of SNP members doesn't mean they'll automatically switch to Labour. I do think though that the chance to put a Labour government in place (thereby ensuring Scottish voters DO get the government they vote for) will help him make inroads into changing the Scottish political landscape.

[Rumble de Thump]

Yes he would say that, but with the SNP in a mess now's the time to capitalise - and he does acknowledge the mass exodus of SNP members doesn't mean they'll automatically switch to Labour. I do think though that the chance to put a Labour government in place (thereby ensuring Scottish voters DO get the government they vote for) will help him make inroads into changing the Scottish political landscape.

Although some people have made it clear they would love it to be the case, the SNP isn't in a mess.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes he would say that, but with the SNP in a mess now's the time to capitalise - and he does acknowledge the mass exodus of SNP members doesn't mean they'll automatically switch to Labour. I do think though that the chance to put a Labour government in place (thereby ensuring Scottish voters DO get the government they vote for) will help him make inroads into changing the Scottish political landscape.

You think Labour can win in Scotland in the next 18 months? [emoji102]


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[He's here!]

Although some people have made it clear they would love it to be the case, the SNP isn't in a mess.

I think even their most ardent supporters would acknowledge they've hit troubled waters.

[He's here!]

You think Labour can win in Scotland in the next 18 months? [emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Win? As in a majority of Scottish Westminster seats? Doubtful, but I think they are in with a good shout of becoming a credible contender again.

[Hiber-nation]

I think even their most ardent supporters would acknowledge they've hit troubled waters.

I don't know any SNP supporter who thinks otherwise. No point in pretending on here that all is well just to have an argument with the likes of you. It's a mess, if KF gets in then that will help but there are still huge issues to overcome. I know some longstanding party members and they're scunnered.

[Hiber-nation]

Win? As in a majority of Scottish Westminster seats? Doubtful, but I think they are in with a good shout of becoming a credible contender again.

They are a contender because they're not the SNP. It's certainly not due to anything Scottish Labour have come up with.

[Santa Cruz]

I don't know any SNP supporter who thinks otherwise. No point in pretending on here that all is well just to have an argument with the likes of you. It's a mess, if KF gets in then that will help but there are still huge issues to overcome. I know some longstanding party members and they're scunnered.

Think you're right. The in-fighting and briefings against the new leader, whoever that is, will continue. That's a problem for any political party when that happens, but much worse if the party is in Gov.

[Ozyhibby]

Win? As in a majority of Scottish Westminster seats? Doubtful, but I think they are in with a good shout of becoming a credible contender again.

So not the govt we voted for as you claimed?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/a0fa3a4948054e6d165cf319f6051483.jpg
Some context.


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[Santa Cruz]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/a0fa3a4948054e6d165cf319f6051483.jpg
Some context.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It doesn't mean anything. Look at how many votes the SNP got at the last election when they had over 100k members. Labour got nearly half that amount of votes with less than a fifth of party member numbers in comparison to the SNP.

[WeeRussell]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/a0fa3a4948054e6d165cf319f6051483.jpg
Some context.


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Labour are definitely only another post about ferries or link to the telegraph away from taking complete control.

[He's here!]

So not the govt we voted for as you claimed?


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Yeh, I think right now it's a long shot but not impossible if the SNP continue to unravel at the present rate. I do, though, think the Scottish electorate will have a bigger say in who takes power than they have since Blair, even that doesn't equate to a Labour majority here.

Scottish politics has become a stagnant pond under the SNP. Talk of another referendum in five years is hardly going to invigorate their followers. It's time to change the narrative, which should hopefully work in Labour's favour.

[weecounty hibby]

I do find it funny how people are looking at the SNP and talking about unravelling, turmoil etc. That has been the Labour party for my entire voting life, apart from a brief spell when Blair was leader. Tories are always a **** show. Political parties will go through phases like this. Thankfully for snp, and Scotland, it's not their default position

[Hibbyradge]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/a0fa3a4948054e6d165cf319f6051483.jpg
Some context.


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What are those numbers?

[Ozyhibby]

What are those numbers?

Party members


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[Hibbyradge]

Party members


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Thanks. I should have read the subsequent posts.

[JeMeSouviens]

It doesn't mean anything. Look at how many votes the SNP got at the last election when they had over 100k members. Labour got nearly half that amount of votes with less than a fifth of party member numbers in comparison to the SNP.

It doesn't mean the amount of voters they attract is proportionate. It does mean what it says though, they have a vastly larger membership.

And also a very high per-capita membership for a UK party notwithstanding this drop off. For comparison, the most recent Lab figure I can see is 430K (equivalent to 35Kish in Scotland) . So Scot Lab is hugely underperforming the UK party when it comes to attracting members. The Tories have less than half of Lab and the poor old Libs less in the whole UK than even this reduced SNP figure.

[degenerated]

Yeh, I think right now it's a long shot but not impossible if the SNP continue to unravel at the present rate. I do, though, think the Scottish electorate will have a bigger say in who takes power than they have since Blair, even that doesn't equate to a Labour majority here.

Scottish politics has become a stagnant pond under the SNP. Talk of another referendum in five years is hardly going to invigorate their followers. It's time to change the narrative, which should hopefully work in Labour's favour.When half the electorate or thereabouts want Scotland to be a normal country what makes you think they're going to start voting for a unionist party like Labour?

[Mibbes Aye]

It doesn't mean the amount of voters they attract is proportionate. It does mean what it says though, they have a vastly larger membership.

And also a very high per-capita membership for a UK party notwithstanding this drop off. For comparison, the most recent Lab figure I can see is 430K (equivalent to 35Kish in Scotland) . So Scot Lab is hugely underperforming the UK party when it comes to attracting members. The Tories have less than half of Lab and the poor old Libs less in the whole UK than even this reduced SNP figure.

All this ‘size of our membership’ talk by SNP supporters sounds a bit FOH to me 😀

[Mibbes Aye]

What are the benefits of being a member of a political party? Is it just getting to vote on leadership contests?

Financial support for elections and campaigns (assuming your party tells you where the money went).

A little bit of a chance to try and shape policy at conference etc

Countless emails

20% off at the Co-Op

[archie]

When half the electorate or thereabouts want Scotland to be a normal country what makes you think they're going to start voting for a unionist party like Labour?

Because unionist/nationalist isn't the only prism people have in deciding who to vote for.

[Ozyhibby]

All this ‘size of our membership’ talk by SNP supporters sounds a bit FOH to me [emoji3]

You say that like FOH is a bad thing?


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[Berwickhibby]

Another SNP loss in Council by election…to the Tories in Stirling 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

Because unionist/nationalist isn't the only prism people have in deciding who to vote for.

It’s is the dominant prism in Scotland. We have Tories voting for Labour and Labour supporters voting tactically for the Tories in Scotland. The constitution is the single biggest issue in Scottish politics and it’s not changing soon. I live in ACH constituency that he won by a country mile and I haven’t met a single person who doesn’t think he’s a bit of a dick but I’ve met loads who voted for him.


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[Mibbes Aye]

You say that like FOH is a bad thing?


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You’re right. I suppose the difference is FOH members know where their money goes.

[archie]

It’s is the dominant prism in Scotland. We have Tories voting for Labour and Labour supporters voting tactically for the Tories in Scotland. The constitution is the single biggest issue in Scottish politics and it’s not changing soon. I live in ACH constituency that he won by a country mile and I haven’t met a single person who doesn’t think he’s a bit of a dick but I’ve met loads who voted for him.


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I wonder if that might change given a)Labour in the UK being in its strongest position for years b) stronger emphasis on getting the Tories out c) possible fall out from SNP leadership election?

[weecounty hibby]

Another SNP loss in Council by election…to the Tories in Stirling 🙄

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan. Always was going to be a Tory win. The SNP vote share went up so not too bad a result while not unexpected

[weecounty hibby]

I wonder if that might change given a)Labour in the UK being in its strongest position for years b) stronger emphasis on getting the Tories out c) possible fall out from SNP leadership election?

It is a fallacy to suggest that you need to vote Labour in Scotland to get rid of the Tories. Labour need to win in England, end of. If they don't they will not win the election.

[Stairway 2 7]

Mainly greens going to tory

BallotBoxScot

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan (Stirling) by-election, first preferences:

Conservative: 1832 (41%, +10.9)
SNP: 1202 (26.9%, +1.1)
Labour: 600 (13.4%, +1.6)
Lib Dem: 399 (8.9%, -0.4)
Green: 389 (8.7%, -7.3)
Family: 50 (1.1%, +0.4)
(Non-returns 6.2% in 2022

[archie]

It is a fallacy to suggest that you need to vote Labour in Scotland to get rid of the Tories. Labour need to win in England, end of. If they don't they will not win the election.

The point I'm making is that an electable Labour is a more attractive proposition. That will apply here too. At lot will depend on how the new FM does. If the history of Labour teaches us anything it's that nothing lasts forever.

[He's here!]

It doesn't mean the amount of voters they attract is proportionate. It does mean what it says though, they have a vastly larger membership.

And also a very high per-capita membership for a UK party notwithstanding this drop off. For comparison, the most recent Lab figure I can see is 430K (equivalent to 35Kish in Scotland) . So Scot Lab is hugely underperforming the UK party when it comes to attracting members. The Tories have less than half of Lab and the poor old Libs less in the whole UK than even this reduced SNP figure.

'notwithstanding this drop off'...losing more than 40% of your members in a short space of time is more than a drop-off. It lays bare the party's direction of travel right now, so it's little wonder they were so reluctant to release the figures.

When your raison d'etre is independence (ie a specific cause to rally round) it's more likely you'll get folk signing up to that cause. While other factors/policies will likely have contributed to so many members drifting away, the sense that independence is as far away as ever is the most common reason for disillusionment.

[He's here!]

It is a fallacy to suggest that you need to vote Labour in Scotland to get rid of the Tories. Labour need to win in England, end of. If they don't they will not win the election.

Pretty sure Theresa May had Scottish Tory votes to thank for keeping them in power in 2017. Had Labour been more successful here they'd have been in a position to form a government.

[He's here!]

When half the electorate or thereabouts want Scotland to be a normal country what makes you think they're going to start voting for a unionist party like Labour?

The other half of the electorate or thereabouts would prefer to see the dead weight of constitutional debate pushed way down the agenda when it comes to Scottish politics. In the current economic climate it may well be that the mass exodus of members from the SNP reflects that view too. There are simply bigger priorities for many these days.

Sturgeon kicked up a stink about the 'democracy denial' of the Supreme Court decision and the s35, yet membership has continued to fall in the wake of such rabble-rousing hyperbole (probably a key aspect of her decision to quit). The opportunity to actually make a difference at the ballot box may well sway voters next time out. Labour, though, really need to ramp up their credentials here to ensure that happens, so I suspect we'll see plenty more of the rhetoric from Starmer that he's been coming out with this week.

[JeMeSouviens]

All this ‘size of our membership’ talk by SNP supporters sounds a bit FOH to me 😀

Well, it's on the way down sharply, so we can but hope FOH follows suit. :wink:

It is pretty remarkable what happened to the SNP membership following the Indyref and I guess we are now seeing that, suprise!, it was an anomalous high and things are trending back to the mean.

[Just Alf]

All this ‘size of our membership’ talk by SNP supporters sounds a bit FOH to me [emoji3]To be fair it was a non-SNP supporter that 1st posted something relating to the party falling apart, it's fair it's responded to IMHO.

That said... I can see your point! :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Well, it's on the way down sharply, so we can but hope FOH follows suit. :wink:

It is pretty remarkable what happened to the SNP membership following the Indyref and I guess we are now seeing that, suprise!, it was an anomalous high and things are trending back to the mean.

It's remarkable the numbers stayed steady for 7 years post referendum. It also is how it's fell of a cliff particular in the last year. It will certainly effect finances but it won't necessarily matter, as long as the leavers doesn't show a trend of people stopping voting snp

[He's here!]

It's remarkable the numbers stayed steady for 7 years post referendum. It also is how it's fell of a cliff particular in the last year. It will certainly effect finances but it won't necessarily matter, as long as the leavers doesn't show a trend of people stopping voting snp

Guessing this is what may lie behind the Murrell loan.

[marinello59]

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan. Always was going to be a Tory win. The SNP vote share went up so not too bad a result while not unexpected

They lost to Labour up in Aberdeen a few weeks ago as well.

[He's here!]

Just when you think our Islanders have suffered enough. There are real consequences for peoples lives because of this absolute farce. And still nobody takes responsibility.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64988304

[Stairway 2 7]

A few hours after Ash Regan raised concerns about her actions in the FM elections, Liz Lloyd resigns. She was Nicola Sturgeons chief of staff and says she was always going to go when NS quit, so goes weeks later

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23394303.fm-aide-quit-regan-raises-concerns-civil-service-chief/

"So there are lots of questions here. What has been promised to [Liz Lloyd]? Why is it that Liz Lloyd is being paid by the taxpayer helping Humza Yousaf, the party’s favourite candidate?" they said.

[WeeRussell]

The other half of the electorate or thereabouts would prefer to see the dead weight of constitutional debate pushed way down the agenda when it comes to Scottish politics. In the current economic climate it may well be that the mass exodus of members from the SNP reflects that view too. There are simply bigger priorities for many these days.

Sturgeon kicked up a stink about the 'democracy denial' of the Supreme Court decision and the s35, yet membership has continued to fall in the wake of such rabble-rousing hyperbole (probably a key aspect of her decision to quit). The opportunity to actually make a difference at the ballot box may well sway voters next time out. Labour, though, really need to ramp up their credentials here to ensure that happens, so I suspect we'll see plenty more of the rhetoric from Starmer that he's been coming out with this week.

Yep. SNP members are leaving because they don’t want independence any more.

[Stairway 2 7]

Murray Foote SNPs media manager quits. He said to the media last month that it was nonsense they lost 30,000 members and said similar on twitter. He's chucked a grenade as he's going saying that the information was from HQ.

Bizarre. No wonder they are routing for Yousaf as there would be sackings at HQ for incompetence. Any more resignations coming today or we quite done?

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryHoare/status/1636791880309522435

[marinello59]

Murray Foote SNPs media manager quits. He said to the media last month that it was nonsense they lost 30,000 members and said similar on twitter. He's chucked a grenade as he's going saying that the information was from HQ.

Bizarre. No wonder they are routing for Yousaf as there would be sackings at HQ for incompetence. Any more resignations coming today or we quite done?

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryHoare/status/1636791880309522435

Murrell should surely be considering his own position now.

[He's here!]

Murray Foote SNPs media manager quits. He said to the media last month that it was nonsense they lost 30,000 members and said similar on twitter. He's chucked a grenade as he's going saying that the information was from HQ.

Bizarre. No wonder they are routing for Yousaf as there would be sackings at HQ for incompetence. Any more resignations coming today or we quite done?

https://mobile.twitter.com/GregoryHoare/status/1636791880309522435

What a shambles. This is the guff he put out:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23318753.snp-reject-report-30-000-quit-party-nicola-sturgeon-gender-reforms/

Liz Lloyd...was she not at the heart of the alleged attempt to make the Salmond allegations 'go away'?

[Ozyhibby]

Yousaf will be hoping a lot of people voted early because being the continuity candidate now is not a great look.


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[Ozyhibby]

Might watch tonight’s hustings.[emoji23]


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[McD]

Might watch tonight’s hustings.[emoji23]


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where can it be watched?

[Ozyhibby]

where can it be watched?

https://www.youtube.com/live/UZTL-tCD5BQ?feature=share


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[Santa Cruz]

Might watch tonight’s hustings.[emoji23]


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Thought these had finished?

[Ozyhibby]

Thought these had finished?

This one is run by the Inverness courier.


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[McD]

https://www.youtube.com/live/UZTL-tCD5BQ?feature=share


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thanks Ozy, appreciated :aok:

[Santa Cruz]

This one is run by the Inverness courier.


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Ok, ta

[archie]

A few hours after Ash Regan raised concerns about her actions in the FM elections, Liz Lloyd resigns. She was Nicola Sturgeons chief of staff and says she was always going to go when NS quit, so goes weeks later

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23394303.fm-aide-quit-regan-raises-concerns-civil-service-chief/

"So there are lots of questions here. What has been promised to [Liz Lloyd]? Why is it that Liz Lloyd is being paid by the taxpayer helping Humza Yousaf, the party’s favourite candidate?" they said.

Published today by Andy Wightman https://andywightman.scot/archives/4998

[He's here!]

Published today by Andy Wightman https://andywightman.scot/archives/4998

Well, that's quite the allegation...the rush to leak the story did seem odd at the time right enough.

[marinello59]

Yousaf will be hoping a lot of people voted early because being the continuity candidate now is not a great look.


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If any of the other two win the stench won’t stop. The SNP are looking just as dysfunctional as the Tories right now. What a mess.

[Mibbes Aye]

No mention from anyone of Stephen Flynn on QT last night?

I’ve never seen anyone turn an audience like that in my life 😂

[WeeRussell]

No mention from anyone of Stephen Flynn on QT last night?

I’ve never seen anyone turn an audience like that in my life 😂

I really enjoyed him. Wish more would say it like it is in that way.

[Mibbes Aye]

I really enjoyed him. Wish more would say it like it is in that way.

Big chance on the national telly and he blew it in his first response.

It isn’t even that he was saying anything unexpected, the SNP are desperately trying to avoid a Starmer majority. It was the way he said it, the room thought he was an idiot.

Worst thing for him and whoever advised him on his lines was that he had made a decent start, although slagging a Tory budget is the political equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/keir-starmer-claims-snp-falling-29479637

'SNP lurching to right and falling apart, claims Starmer'

Oh the irony.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64993032 It appears something is rotten at Murrell Towers

[cabbageandribs1875]

Oh the irony.


indeed, i can't believe that right wing brexit-supporting labour manifesto-destroying strike-hating Scotland-hating Democracy-denying big red Tory tw@t said that

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh the irony.


the mask of many years, which is to argue only about the constitution in the hope that nobody will notice how bad you are in government, has slipped completely.

Thing is, he is only saying what many of us on here - pro-independence, anti- independence, couldn’t give a •••• about flags and woad - have been saying for a good while now.

[WeeRussell]

Big chance on the national telly and he blew it in his first response.

It isn’t even that he was saying anything unexpected, the SNP are desperately trying to avoid a Starmer majority. It was the way he said it, the room thought he was an idiot.

Worst thing for him and whoever advised him on his lines was that he had made a decent start, although slagging a Tory budget is the political equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.

His first response was the “decent start” (?!) and he was applauded by the audience for most of his input throughout. Sure, the woman next to him rolled her eyes a couple of times and his opposition thought he was an “idiot”.

I assumed it was the Keir Starmer tie comments you took exception to. Like I say, no issue for me personally - saying what so many of us think, including Labour supporters. If your main take from Question Time last night was that Stephen Flynn looked an idiot and blew a big chance then I can’t see either of us budging.

I enjoyed him and think he done well. Happy to agree to disagree with no condescending essays required.

[Kato]

His first response was the “decent start” (?!) and he was applauded by the audience for most of his input throughout. Sure, the woman next to him rolled her eyes a couple of times and his opposition thought he was an “idiot”.

I assumed it was the Keir Starmer tie comments you took exception to. Like I say, no issue for me personally - saying what so many of us think, including Labour supporters. If your main take from Question Time last night was that Stephen Flynn looked an idiot and blew a big chance then I can’t see either of us budging.

I enjoyed him and think he done well. Happy to agree to disagree with no condescending essays required.Agreed. The tesco guy and the lady sitting to his right just had knee-jerk reactions to whatever he said, hardly a win for them. Did like some of what the tesco guy said.

Can't say I enjoy hearing those things he said on question time as its the reality for the country/unitary state. Seems like whatever crap the Tories fling at the fan some people can't wait to willfully fling themselves towards the backflow and proclaim it practical or patriotic or whatever it is they pretend it to be at any given time. Someone has to say it though. I'd also quite enjoy hearing him say "round and round the ragged rascal ran", but that's and another matterrr.

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[Mibbes Aye]

His first response was the “decent start” (?!) and he was applauded by the audience for most of his input throughout. Sure, the woman next to him rolled her eyes a couple of times and his opposition thought he was an “idiot”.

I assumed it was the Keir Starmer tie comments you took exception to. Like I say, no issue for me personally - saying what so many of us think, including Labour supporters. If your main take from Question Time last night was that Stephen Flynn looked an idiot and blew a big chance then I can’t see either of us budging.

I enjoyed him and think he done well. Happy to agree to disagree with no condescending essays required.

Your essay wasn’t condescending, be kind to yourself.

I was just intrigued that no one from the SNP fold on here had posted any comment about their Westminster leader, and by the sounds of it, much-preferred Holyrood leader. That was his first appearance on QT wasn’t it?

He got a great round of applause for Tory-bashing, in a way that the ‘outsider’ on the panel can. Then he made his jibe about Starmer. I didn’t take exception to it. I was laughing out loud. More importantly, the audience who had been on his side went stone-cold silent, some rumbling and growling even. Talk about not being able to read a room. It’s little wonder all he ended up doing after that was trying to shout over Lucy Powell.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1636845500916744194?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Murrell to stand down.


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[Ozyhibby]

Your essay wasn’t condescending, be kind to yourself.

I was just intrigued that no one from the SNP fold on here had posted any comment about their Westminster leader, and by the sounds of it, much-preferred Holyrood leader. That was his first appearance on QT wasn’t it?

He got a great round of applause for Tory-bashing, in a way that the ‘outsider’ on the panel can. Then he made his jibe about Starmer. I didn’t take exception to it. I was laughing out loud. More importantly, the audience who had been on his side went stone-cold silent, some rumbling and growling even. Talk about not being able to read a room. It’s little wonder all he ended up doing after that was trying to shout over Lucy Powell.

Don’t watch QT so not really got an opinion.


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[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/kieranpandrews/status/1636845500916744194?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Murrell to stand down.


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He should already be gone. The party has lied and the buck stops with him.

[Ozyhibby]

He should already be gone. The party has lied and the buck stops with him.

I agree. They have had a shocking couple of weeks.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Agreed. The tesco guy and the lady sitting to his right just had knee-jerk reactions to whatever he said, hardly a win for them. Did like some of what the tesco guy said.

Can't say I enjoy hearing those things he said on question time as its the reality for the country/unitary state. Seems like whatever crap the Tories fling at the fan some people can't wait to willfully fling themselves towards the backflow and proclaim it practical or patriotic or whatever it is they pretend it to be at any given time. Someone has to say it though. I'd also quite enjoy hearing him say "round and round the ragged rascal ran", but that's and another matterrr.

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I’m glad you made that last statement first, not me :greengrin. It becomes more prominent when he gets excited and his voice gets higher-pitched too. I would have imagined the SNP did media training for their MPs but then it turns out he has just quit!

And before anyone gets too hot under the collar, one of the things Ed Miliband was lampooned for was his adenoidal voice. It’s a bit cheap to use it as a weapon but it nevertheless has some effect, which I guess says more about people in general than it does about Miliband or Flynn.

[Santa Cruz]

I agree. They have had a shocking couple of weeks.


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Do you not think they should spoil the ballot papers received and re-start the voting process again?

[Stairway 2 7]

Snps excuse for lying is awful. They say when they were asked if they had lost 30k members they were being asked if they lost 30k members due to grc.


https://mobile.twitter.com/OMalleyFife/status/1636824493048905735

[Mibbes Aye]

Don’t watch QT so not really got an opinion.


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It will be on catch-up. I think they repeat the programme during the week as well. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

It will be on catch-up. I think they repeat the programme during the week as well. :greengrin

I mean that I don’t ever watch it. It’s not really my cup of tea. And Newsnight on the other channel.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/159234099e90d65cdff6dfd74e8022e2.jpg

Mr. Continuity is now Mr. Change.[emoji23]


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[Mibbes Aye]

I mean that I don’t ever watch it. It’s not really my cup of tea. And Newsnight on the other channel.


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Yeah, I’m being a bit unfair to be honest, sorry.

I go through phases with it. I don’t think it will ever match its heyday, c.1995-1997. The audience used to boo the Tory panellist just about from the minute they were introduced, and every time they gave a response, even if it couldn’t possibly offend anybody :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/159234099e90d65cdff6dfd74e8022e2.jpg

Mr. Continuity is now Mr. Change.[emoji23]


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Footage emerges of Murray Forde at his exit interview with Murrell

26543

[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230317/159234099e90d65cdff6dfd74e8022e2.jpg

Mr. Continuity is now Mr. Change.[emoji23]


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What did he say, I'm proud of being Mr continuity, Peter Murrell why would I get rid of him he's an election winner, I don't go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories the other candidates should stop listening to innuendo.

He's literally not mentioned change once, any criticism of the snp was doing the opponents work. Now when it's a shambles, they are nothing to do with me I wanted change

[marinello59]

What did he say, I'm proud of being Mr continuity, Peter Murrell why would I get rid of him he's an election winner, I don't go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories the other candidates should stop listening to innuendo.

He's literally not mentioned change once, any criticism of the snp was doing the opponents work. Now when it's a shambles, they are nothing to do with me I wanted change

Yousaf’s slogan should be ‘Follow me, I’ll be right behind you.’ :greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

Mandy Rhodes now - when she was told not to question the press officer's integrity re: J. Cherry questions.

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1636852247530287107

[Kato]

I’m glad you made that last statement first, not me :greengrin. It becomes more prominent when he gets excited and his voice gets higher-pitched too. I would have imagined the SNP did media training for their MPs but then it turns out he has just quit!

And before anyone gets too hot under the collar, one of the things Ed Miliband was lampooned for was his adenoidal voice. It’s a bit cheap to use it as a weapon but it nevertheless has some effect, which I guess says more about people in general than it does about Miliband or Flynn.

I like both Miliband and Flynn.

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[Mibbes Aye]

I like both Miliband and Flynn.

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I voted for Ed in 2010. I think history will treat him more kindly than the electorate did. His policies were portrayed as extreme at the time and are pretty much orthodox now.

As for Flynn, he seems a very earnest fellow, which is an admirable trait in my book. Not enough earnestness these days, regardless of what one is being earnest about.

[weecounty hibby]

Do you not think they should spoil the ballot papers received and re-start the voting process again?

Why? Please explain that as I have no idea why that needs to happen.

[Santa Cruz]

Why? Please explain that as I have no idea why that needs to happen.

If two of the three candidates hadn't asked questions, the members wouldn't have been any wiser about the lack of transparency. They may have made different choices if they knew at the start of the ballot what they know now. The resignations have created speculation which leads to suspicion, I don't think that will go away if Humza wins now. Just think it would remove the speculation if they restart the voting process. I'm obvs not a member or supporter, so my opinion is not as valid as others who are.

[weecounty hibby]

If two of the three candidates hadn't asked questions, the members wouldn't have been any wiser about the lack of transparency. They may have made different choices if they knew at the start of the ballot what they know now. The resignations have created speculation which leads to suspicion, I don't think that will go away if Humza wins now. Just think it would remove the speculation if they restart the voting process. I'm obvs not a member or supporter, so my opinion is not as valid as others who are.
What if HY still wins? I am gutted that the debate has been dragged down by innuendo that could have been sorted if the 3 candidates had attended the meeting that Lorna Finn asked them to a few weeks ago. Imo this has been used by some to divide and cause disruption in the party. Its been great for folk like Cherry and Salmond to use it as an attack on the party. Sal.ond is a bitter ego driven has been and Cherry is a total *****bag. If she really had any conviction she would have left the party and gone to Alba. But she won't as she knows she won't be elected again if she does

[marinello59]

What if HY still wins? I am gutted that the debate has been dragged down by innuendo that could have been sorted if the 3 candidates had attended the meeting that Lorna Finn asked them to a few weeks ago. Imo this has been used by some to divide and cause disruption in the party. Its been great for folk like Cherry and Salmond to use it as an attack on the party. Sal.ond is a bitter ego driven has been and Cherry is a total *****bag. If she really had any conviction she would have left the party and gone to Alba. But she won't as she knows she won't be elected again if she does

You have just described a party ripping itself apart with infighting. Apart from Indy why would anyone vote for them?

[Santa Cruz]

What if HY still wins? I am gutted that the debate has been dragged down by innuendo that could have been sorted if the 3 candidates had attended the meeting that Lorna Finn asked them to a few weeks ago. Imo this has been used by some to divide and cause disruption in the party. Its been great for folk like Cherry and Salmond to use it as an attack on the party. Sal.ond is a bitter ego driven has been and Cherry is a total *****bag. If she really had any conviction she would have left the party and gone to Alba. But she won't as she knows she won't be elected again if she does

If Humza still wins, that removes the ?? around speculation, it puts him in a better position than he will be if he wins as things stand. Totally disagree about Cherry, think she's been treated really poorly. Admire her for standing up for herself when she's been sidelined just for having a different opinion on some issues.

[Skol]

The dishonesty at the top is now exposed as just being what they thought was clever spin.

This might seem innocuous over member numbers. You need to ask though if they lie about this what else were the lying about.

It is time for change

[Ozyhibby]

What if HY still wins? I am gutted that the debate has been dragged down by innuendo that could have been sorted if the 3 candidates had attended the meeting that Lorna Finn asked them to a few weeks ago. Imo this has been used by some to divide and cause disruption in the party. Its been great for folk like Cherry and Salmond to use it as an attack on the party. Sal.ond is a bitter ego driven has been and Cherry is a total *****bag. If she really had any conviction she would have left the party and gone to Alba. But she won't as she knows she won't be elected again if she does

I don’t think it’s fair now to blame the candidates. I don’t think that information was going to be given had that meeting happened. I think we are well beyond this not being a transparency issue. When the party is lying to its own press officer so that he can lie to the public then that is definitely a problem. While this campaign has now been messy it will be good for the party in the long term. It’s clear now that some people have become too cosy in their roles and had not been following best practice. In future the party must have full transparency over these issues.
And we have to ask why these figures were such a closely guarded secret? It’s a spectacular drop.
I think supporters of the party are entitled to ask questions about why nearly a third of the membership have left?
While I’m happy enough to support the GRA I certainly would not have wasted as much political capital on it as the SNP did. Especially when the other parties who supported it were happy to take a back seat when they saw it could cause problems for the SNP. But if you told me that the GRA would cost the SNP a third of its membership then there is zero chance I would have supported it. And I would have wanted rid of anyone in the party who wanted to pursue that strategy. We are a party bound together by support for Indy above all else. You can’t pursue issues without taking the membership and the public with you.
Ash Regan has done the party a massive favour by going so hard on this issue.


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[Skol]

I would guess that the actual lie was in the overstating of the membership numbers.

They were probably right that they haven’t lost 30k members but ended up being forced to reveal the truth.

It’s a pretty odd thing to be untruthful about though.

[Ozyhibby]

You have just described a party ripping itself apart with infighting. Apart from Indy why would anyone vote for them?

All parties have times like this. It’s probably a bit overdue with the SNP. It will be good for the party in the long run.
Indy is the primary reason that people vote for the SNP. That’s not going away anytime soon. It’s why Labour won’t recover in Scotland the way it will in England.


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[Ozyhibby]

I would guess that the actual lie was in the overstating of the membership numbers.

They were probably right that they haven’t lost 30k members but ended up being forced to reveal the truth.

It’s a pretty odd thing to be untruthful about though.

Difficult to speculate why they did it but it’s clear that they should not have concealed it during a leadership race. Especially when there is a favoured candidate of the party big wigs. That has been handled terribly.


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[WeeRussell]

The dishonesty at the top is now exposed as just being what they thought was clever spin.

This might seem innocuous over member numbers. You need to ask though if they lie about this what else were the lying about.

It is time for change

And there’s only one thing that will bring change.

[Skol]

And there’s only one thing that will bring change.

Lol. We can only change the lying at the top if we get independence. They wouldn’t have lied if it hadn’t been for Westminster :cb

[He's here!]

What if HY still wins? I am gutted that the debate has been dragged down by innuendo that could have been sorted if the 3 candidates had attended the meeting that Lorna Finn asked them to a few weeks ago. Imo this has been used by some to divide and cause disruption in the party. Its been great for folk like Cherry and Salmond to use it as an attack on the party. Sal.ond is a bitter ego driven has been and Cherry is a total *****bag. If she really had any conviction she would have left the party and gone to Alba. But she won't as she knows she won't be elected again if she does

What innuendo? Heads are rolling, with Murrell's seemingly next.

In the light of all this I imagine some will be less inclined to laugh off the ongoing fraud probe.

[He's here!]

Lol. We can only change the lying at the top if we get independence. They wouldn’t have lied if it hadn’t been for Westminster :cb

Indeed. Where do you turn when the catch-all Westminster blame card can't be played?

[archie]

indeed. Where do you turn when the catch-all westminster blame card can't be played?

mi5, gchq?

[Berwickhibby]

Gone according to Sky https://news.sky.com/story/snp-chief-executive-peter-murrell-resigns-12836882

[Skol]

Gone according to Sky https://news.sky.com/story/snp-chief-executive-peter-murrell-resigns-12836882

Let’s hope Ozy is right and it is now time for a reset. It can only be a good thing for Scotland but what this means for the selection of a new leader is anyone’s guess.

The continuity candidate will need to change his messaging now

[grunt]

Gone according to BBC too https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65000606

[Hibrandenburg]

What innuendo? Heads are rolling, with Murrell's seemingly next.

In the light of all this I imagine some will be less inclined to laugh off the ongoing fraud probe.

Heads are rolling or people are stepping down?

[Skol]

Heads are rolling or people are stepping down?

His official statement said he was resigning anyway after the new leader was elected and is just bringing it forward a few weeks. Lying to the end !!!

[Mibbes Aye]

So. still a few questions to be answered.

What did happen to the £600,000?

Does the SNP still owe half the loan money to Murrell? If so, will it be settling this directly?

Did Murrell get a package in return for going immediately?

Will the party appoint an independent figure to investigate and publicly report on the various accusations and allegations that have swamped this leadership election - and also the party’s financial arrangements. After all it has been nearly two years since the treasurer and others resigned over a lack of access to all the information to do their jobs .

Given the murky relationship between Murrell’s role and what is effectively the naming of a new first minister, then full transparency is the least owed to the Scottish people.

[Pretty Boy]

You wouldn't buy a second hand car from Murrell. Dodgy as.

Hopefully there is a bit of accountability and transparency going forward. The Scottish electorate are owed as much.

[Stairway 2 7]

His official statement said he was resigning anyway after the new leader was elected and is just bringing it forward a few weeks. Lying to the end !!!

The same as what Liz Lloyd a few hours after being named by Regan for helping Yousaf win whilst employed by the tax payer. Yes we were being told to go, but we were going anyway

[marinello59]

His official statement said he was resigning anyway after the new leader was elected and is just bringing it forward a few weeks. Lying to the end !!!

Apparently there was no intent to mislead so no need to apologise or show any contrition for costing another man his job. I suspect Mr Murrell’s story is far from over.

[marinello59]

Heads are rolling or people are stepping down?

Murrell was told to resign or face a vote of no confidence. He was effectively sacked.

[Ged]

How can Murrell say that "there was no intention to mislead"? The membership figure he gave was a bare faced lie.

[Skol]

Sure he lied but they were not as bad lies as those told in Westminster. ;-)

[Curried]

Full cream from the unionists:-)

[Berwickhibby]

Full cream from the unionists:-)

Tartan Tories behaving like their big brothers the Tories with their deception and lack of transparency… snake oil salesmen the lot of them :faf:

[H18 SFR]

All the we were going anyway reminds me of when I dumped the psycho ex and she told everyone she was dumping me anyway.

[He's here!]

Tartan Tories behaving like their big brothers the Tories with their deception and lack of transparency… snake salesmen the lot of them :faf:

Nest of vipers indeed. Just like any political party. Problem is the SNP claimed to be progressives, holding the moral high ground. This has finally been fully exposed as a sham and I suspect there's worse to come for them. As Mibbes Aye points out, there are plenty more questions to be answered of Murrell's role...

Regan is the only candidate calling this out for the shambles it is. There's mileage in her call for the vote to be paused.

[He's here!]

How can Murrell say that "there was no intention to mislead"? The membership figure he gave was a bare faced lie.

He tried to downplay the original lie by telling another one (ie by claiming he thought the 30k figure referred to those leaving over the gender reforms...utter nonsense of course).

[Hibrandenburg]

Murrell was told to resign or face a vote of no confidence. He was effectively sacked.

OK, thanks.

[Kato]

https://i.ibb.co/Yhq5VyC/20230318-141145.jpg

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[Skol]

https://i.ibb.co/Yhq5VyC/20230318-141145.jpg

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Pretty much sums it up

[WhileTheChief..]

Every time there's a criticism of the SNP, someone has to try to shift the discussion to "yeah, but the Tories...."

Not this time!

This one has got absolutely nothing to do with Westminster, or Sunak, or anyone else south of the border.

[Just Alf]

Every time there's a criticism of the SNP, someone has to try to shift the discussion to "yeah, but the Tories...."

Not this time!

This one has got absolutely nothing to do with Westminster, or Sunak, or anyone else south of the border.Sometimes it's valid.... don't think this is one of them though :agree:

[Stairway 2 7]

When you've got one of the worst governments in British history in Westminster, it gives you a fair amount of leeway to be hopeless but better

[marinello59]

When you've got one of the worst governments in British history in Westminster, it gives you a fair amount of leeway to be hopeless but better

No need to push it to the limit though. :greengrin

[hibee]

Hearts fans today?

26544

https://twitter.com/heartsgoals/status/1637112768661684226?s=61&t=NzwNqgQPmkQf9xtor6QZnA

[marinello59]

Hearts fans today?

26544

https://twitter.com/heartsgoals/status/1637112768661684226?s=61&t=NzwNqgQPmkQf9xtor6QZnA

Wrong thread?

[Crunchie]

Gone according to Sky https://news.sky.com/story/snp-chief-executive-peter-murrell-resigns-12836882
Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[He's here!]

Wrong thread?

Whatever thread it's meant to be on is it genuine?!

[Stairway 2 7]

Whatever thread it's meant to be on is it genuine?!

Yes and to be fair their fans are slamming it. The boys jeans are about as bad as the flag

[degenerated]

Yes and to be fair their fans are slamming it. The boys jeans are about as bad as the flagIts taken a lot to beat the William and Kate wedding tea towels they had at Easter road but fair play to them, they've done it. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

https://i.ibb.co/Yhq5VyC/20230318-141145.jpg

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Yep

[He's here!]

Full cream from the unionists:-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65006051.amp

Today's front pages certainly make colourful reading ;-)

'Sex, lies and spin'...not sure what the 'sex' part is.

[Berwickhibby]

I know it’s Craig Murray and he is a conspiracy idiot nut job….. https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg/status/1637413736146149376?s=61&t=jVZFMD2OZJdphYiF-Yq2Gw

[grunt]

I know it’s Craig Murray and he is a conspiracy idiot nut job….. ... but, hey, I'll post it anyway!

[Berwickhibby]

... but, hey, I'll post it anyway!

Oh aye…because maybe once he is right :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Nicola Sturgeon was asked to meet the select committee today by Pete Wishart. She said she was too busy, she went on loose women

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1637852641781751808

[Ozyhibby]

Nicola Sturgeon was asked to meet the select committee today by Pete Wishart. She said she was too busy, she went on loose women

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1637852641781751808

I agree with her decision. And not just SNP FM’s. The Scottish FM is accountable to the Scottish Parliament.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I agree with her decision. And not just SNP FM’s. The Scottish FM is accountable to the Scottish Parliament.


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Select Committees don’t just ask people to attend, to hold them to
account. And given they act as representatives of the people (that’s all UK people) then it sounds like one last petty act of defiance, seasoned with a dash of democracy denial.

[grunt]

Nicola Sturgeon was asked to meet the select committee today by Pete Wishart. She said she was too busy, she went on loose women


Has she ever been asked before? Since when has Westminster shown any interest in the SG?What's the point in asking her now, when they haven't seen the need to ask her in the last 10 years?

[Stairway 2 7]

Has she ever been asked before? Since when has Westminster shown any interest in the SG?What's the point in asking her now, when they haven't seen the need to ask her in the last 10 years?

Mark Drakeford has been asked 3 times and took part three times, Nicola Sturgeon has been asked 3 times and been busy three times apparently

[grunt]

Experts say research provides clear evidence minimum unit pricing has reduced harm caused by alcohol

https://t.co/ULyVQdKb4T

[Ozyhibby]

Experts say research provides clear evidence minimum unit pricing has reduced harm caused by alcohol

https://t.co/ULyVQdKb4T

It would likely work a bit better if they lifted the minimum price in line with inflation.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Experts say research provides clear evidence minimum unit pricing has reduced harm caused by alcohol

https://t.co/ULyVQdKb4T

What a study. Alcohol related deaths have rose the two years after the ban peaking in 2021 and has dropped by 9 in 2022. I'm glade they say covid has clouded the data because well obviously.

Overall consumption has been dropping fast for the last 15 years anyway and the youth are drinking less each year so it will drop further.

I don't mind sin taxes but this study is vague. We already drink less than the EU average so not a huge issue, drug deaths need our full concentration

[archie]

Experts say research provides clear evidence minimum unit pricing has reduced harm caused by alcohol

https://t.co/ULyVQdKb4T

So you'll be supporting the tax rise on whisky?

[WeeRussell]

So you'll be supporting the tax rise on whisky?

Why draw that conclusion when they are separate things? You may as well accuse him of wanting alcohol banned completely.

[archie]

Why draw that conclusion when they are separate things? You may as well accuse him of wanting alcohol banned completely.
Isn't the point of minimum alcohol pricing that alcohol is too cheap? Therefore the principle of raising prices is valid for both cases.

[Ozyhibby]

Isn't the point of minimum alcohol pricing that alcohol is too cheap? Therefore the principle of raising prices is valid for both cases.

There are two different dynamics involved in both schemes.
I’m comfortable with sin taxes though and don’t object to the whiskey tax.


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[archie]

There are two different dynamics involved in both schemes.
I’m comfortable with sin taxes though and don’t object to the whiskey tax.


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What are the different dynamics?

[Ozyhibby]

What are the different dynamics?

Whiskey is mostly already pretty expensive. The minimum pricing is for the stuff sold at the bottom of the market in 2 litre plastic bottles.
While drinking whiskey is harmful, the people who are most at risk from alcohol related deaths have usually moved to cheaper alternative by that time.


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[archie]

Whiskey is mostly already pretty expensive. The minimum pricing is for the stuff sold at the bottom of the market in 2 litre plastic bottles.
While drinking whiskey is harmful, the people who are most at risk from alcohol related deaths have usually moved to cheaper alternative by that time.


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So targeting poor people?

[weecounty hibby]

Scotch Whisky doesn't have an e!!!!!!!!!

[archie]

Scotch Whisky doesn't have an e!!!!!!!!!

I saw that. I assumed Ozy was targeting the Irish stuff rather then the life giving Scottish nectar!

[Ozyhibby]

So targeting poor people?

Yes. It’s poor people we are trying to save.[emoji106]


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[archie]

Yes. It’s poor people we are trying to save.[emoji106]


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Doesn't alcohol abuse affect all incomes?

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes. It’s poor people we are trying to save.[emoji106]


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It's not working. Alchahol deaths are at a record high, well down 9 from last year but still through the roof. Although that pails into insignificance compared to our world beating drug deaths.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not working. Alchahol deaths are at a record high, well down 9 from last year but still through the roof. Although that pails into insignificance compared to our world beating drug deaths.

So is the report wrong?


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[archie]

So is the report wrong?


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It's more nuanced than the headline. From the article you posted:
'The research was observational, so cannot prove conclusively that the significant fall in deaths was due to the minimum unit pricing policy.'

[Stairway 2 7]

So is the report wrong?


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Yes its awful but they got the answer they wanted. I don't like Christopher Snowden but he's right on this. He has an piece on it today in it he has his quote from last year

"I wouldn’t be surprised if activist-academics pull a dodgy counterfactual out of their hat at the last minute and claim success, as has just happened with the sugar tax. In fact, I'd put money on it"

https://snowdon.substack.com/p/the-minimum-pricing-salvage-job

Set up by a scot gov body and conducted by two people who have been pushing for minimum pricing. It's only way to find a % is by comparing us to England. What about all the caveats like we had more excess deaths or we had much more drug deaths and there is a cross over. Why only use one year when other years show a different result. Why not compare Wales also who brought in minimum pricing, ect ect.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's more nuanced than the headline. From the article you posted:
'The research was observational, so cannot prove conclusively that the significant fall in deaths was due to the minimum unit pricing policy.'

Even the quote is ridiculous. Yes their was a significant fall in deaths the year after it was brought in. But mention the year after too when it rose further than it had been then rose the year after. God knows why it has started rising again

26556

[archie]

Even the quote is ridiculous. Yes their was a significant fall in deaths the year after it was brought in. But mention the year after too when it rose further than it had been then rose the year after. God knows why it has started rising again

26556

I think they cite Covid?

[Stairway 2 7]

I think they cite Covid?

Other nations had a jump in consumption but not deaths, was barely a lockdown in 2022 but still as high, hopefully starts to drop again

[Mibbes Aye]

Alcohol-related deaths tend to be many years if not decades in the making. That’s robust. My opinion, which is less robust, is that the MAP impact will be offset by a huge spike from lockdown. But the full effect won’t be apparent until we have longer-term evidence.

[Ozyhibby]

Other nations had a jump in consumption but not deaths, was barely a lockdown in 2022 but still as high, hopefully starts to drop again

If it’s not working then it should be binned straight away because it’s not a tax, the govt see no other benefit from it. The cash goes straight to the drinks producers.


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[Curried]

Alcohol-related deaths tend to be many years if not decades in the making. That’s robust. My opinion, which is less robust, is that the MAP impact will be offset by a huge spike from lockdown. But the full effect won’t be apparent until we have longer-term evidence.

I agree. A Before After Control Impact (BACI) study has always been required, but i doubt if any sufficient platform has ever been set.
It's like the new proposed Marine Protected Area's (MPAs)....danae look at it now (or ever) in any empirical sense.

[Stairway 2 7]

If it’s not working then it should be binned straight away because it’s not a tax, the govt see no other benefit from it. The cash goes straight to the drinks producers.


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I would swap it for a tax straight away post independence.

[Ozyhibby]

I would swap it for a tax straight away post independence.

Out of our power that though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Out of our power that though.


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Post independence?

[Smartie]

If it’s not working then it should be binned straight away because it’s not a tax, the govt see no other benefit from it. The cash goes straight to the drinks producers.


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Will they not pay tax on increased profit though?

So not being taxed directly, but indirectly?

[Ozyhibby]

Will they not pay tax on increased profit though?

So not being taxed directly, but indirectly?

Straight to UK govt. If they pay it at all. Companies seem very good at avoiding tax.


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[archie]

Straight to UK govt. If they pay it at all. Companies seem very good at avoiding tax.


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Obviously straight to UKG benefits us all.

[Ozyhibby]

Obviously straight to UKG benefits us all.

Of course it does.[emoji6]


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[Hibrandenburg]

Obviously straight to UKG benefits us all.

Can't wait to have my turn on that Trident submarine.

[CropleyWasGod]

Straight to UK govt. If they pay it at all. Companies seem very good at avoiding tax.


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The smaller retailers, such as corner shops, pay Income Tax in the main. So, if their profits are increasing, the SG benefits.

[Ozyhibby]

The smaller retailers, such as corner shops, pay Income Tax in the main. So, if their profits are increasing, the SG benefits.

I would not think that a very big percentage of alcohol is sold by sole traders?


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[archie]

Can't wait to have my turn on that Trident submarine.

You might appreciate NHS, pensions, transport, etc., etc.

[Ozyhibby]

You might appreciate NHS, pensions, transport, etc., etc.

Can we get a shot on Michelle Mone’s boat?


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[archie]

Can we get a shot on Michelle Mone’s boat?


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I suspect if you are your usual charming self you might be in with a shot.

[Stairway 2 7]

Wow

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23402670.snp-mp-calls-kate-forbes-sex-obsessed-religious-fundamentalist/?ref=twtrec

SNP MP calls Kate Forbes a sex-obsessed religious fundamentalist

[grunt]

Wow

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23402670.snp-mp-calls-kate-forbes-sex-obsessed-religious-fundamentalist/?ref=twtrec

SNP MP calls Kate Forbes a sex-obsessed religious fundamentalist
No he didn't.

[Ozyhibby]

Wow

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23402670.snp-mp-calls-kate-forbes-sex-obsessed-religious-fundamentalist/?ref=twtrec

SNP MP calls Kate Forbes a sex-obsessed religious fundamentalist

Headline doesn’t exactly match the actual story.


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[Stairway 2 7]

No he didn't.

Pretty much did if not he was at least including her in a group or them

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty much did if not he was at least including her in a group or them

He was talking about religions in general. In the same way I would. Not the same as saying an individual is that though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

He was talking about religions in general. In the same way I would. Not the same as saying an individual is that though.


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You'd do well as his lawyer but I'd bet most wouldn't believe it. Where did he say anything about religions in general he was in the middle of talking about her

I I was talking about Putin then said the thing about these dictators is they are all mental, it would be obvious I'm talking about him mainly. By him saying these religious fundamentalists he's just being passive aggressive.

Notice he said he'd work with her. Yet another gravy train guzzler

[Hibby Bairn]

Straight to UK govt. If they pay it at all. Companies seem very good at avoiding tax.


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What? All Companies?

[danhibees1875]

Can we get a shot on Michelle Mone’s boat?


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Submarines and now boats, you'll be wanting to use a ferry next. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Submarines and now boats, you'll be wanting to use a ferry next. :greengrin

More chance of getting on a trident submarine :greengrin