Tories are still lying *******s

[WhileTheChief..]

Is it not simple. You're not bothered about Rangers fans insulting, disgusting names for Catholics but are up in arms about people on here using insulting, disgusting names for Conservatives.



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You're so bothered about their singing that you do what exactly??

Nowt.

Same as me.

[grunt]

Now we've got the Conservatives talking about levelling up across the country. I'd have thought everyone on the Left would see that as a positive thing.
If you believe the Tories have any interest in levelling up then I've got a bridge to sell you.

I can understand people voting Tory in the past - they used to be "the party of business", a safe pair of hands for the economy. But **** business and Brexit has blown that completely out of the water - the current Government is Tory in name only, now they're just interested in getting money for themselves. You just have to look at the number of "decent" Tories who got kicked out of the party.

[Kato]

I doubt many Conservative voters vote the way they did because of these issues. I know I didn't.

It's just that these issues aren't the priority for the majority of people in the country.

Mile long foodbank queues?? Really? This is sort of stuff I just don't get. It's like Corbyn describing a country that hardly anyone recognised.

Maybe I'm extremely fortunate but I've never come across this and don't know anyone that knows anyone that is affected like this. ( I earn an average wage BTW and come from a working class family so I'm not some well off Tory B!)

Now we've got the Conservatives talking about levelling up across the country. I'd have thought everyone on the Left would see that as a positive thing. Get poorer people in the country earning more and giving them more opportunites in life. That's got to be a good thing no?




It would be great if levelling up was an actual thing. At the moment it's just talk. Maybe some people just don't trust the talk given how disparity has grown so much under the Tory finance policies during the last 40 years. "Levelling up" would see some sort of downward trend in disparity levels, so we'll just have to wait and see. Have heard it all before though, "hard working families", "all in this together" those turned out to be lies.


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[Kato]

Perfectly chilled here, not up in arms about anything.

What are you complaining about then?

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[Northernhibee]

It's just that these issues aren't the priority for the majority of people in the country.

Mile long foodbank queues?? Really? This is sort of stuff I just don't get. It's like Corbyn describing a country that hardly anyone recognised.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s11gifJ8Q1c

Why would that not be someone's priority, to ensure that people can afford to put food on the table and a roof over their head? Is that how self centred this nation has become in the last eleven years?

Loughborough University studies found that 41.1% of children in Middlesborough are living in poverty. In one of the richest countries in the world.

[Moulin Yarns]

I doubt many Conservative voters vote the way they did because of these issues. I know I didn't.

It's just that these issues aren't the priority for the majority of people in the country.

Mile long foodbank queues?? Really? This is sort of stuff I just don't get. It's like Corbyn describing a country that hardly anyone recognised.

Maybe I'm extremely fortunate but I've never come across this and don't know anyone that knows anyone that is affected like this. ( I earn an average wage BTW and come from a working class family so I'm not some well off Tory B!)

Now we've got the Conservatives talking about levelling up across the country. I'd have thought everyone on the Left would see that as a positive thing. Get poorer people in the country earning more and giving them more opportunites in life. That's got to be a good thing no?

It's like the Left want to keep people in perpetual poverty instead of trying to lift them out of it.

Can I ask, have you seen the empty shelves in supermarkets recently?

Who do you blame for them?

[Kato]

You're so bothered about their singing that you do what exactly??

Nowt.

Same as me.You do a lot of defending them singing those songs on here.

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[mjhibby]

More authoritarian by the day. Don't think democracy in the UK has been in such peril as now imo

And they are doing it in plain sight and hoping nobody notices. Just horrible human beings but the worse is probably to come. It boils down to the vast majority voting for their interests and have no interest in helping others You see it every day. The fact that some folk don't see food banks so don't think it's an issue sums it up perfectly. With the ni rise,soaring energy bills,universal credit cut and huge increases in food means the poorest will be the worst off they have been for decades. The tories don't give a dawn Shameful behaviour but par for the course for them.

[Ozyhibby]

Two years into a 5 year term, can anyone point to a specific policy that should level up anything?


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[Northernhibee]

Two years into a 5 year term, can anyone point to a specific policy that should level up anything?


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Or even a concrete definition of what "levelling up" is?

[Kato]

It's just that these issues aren't the priority for the majority of people in the country.



What are their priorities?

What are your priorities?

As I've stated a few times here my priorities are to see businesses and industries thrive, a capitalist outlook with a chance for everyone to make good out of it, coupled with a strong social contract. No Conservative govt has delivered that in my lifetime.





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[Callum_62]

"talking about leveling up" ha ha ha

They've been in power over a decade and everyone should be perfectly content with 'talking about leveling up'

Have they themselves even put any definition what leveling up is? What will be a success? When can it be judged?

Brilliant

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[WhileTheChief..]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s11gifJ8Q1c

Why would that not be someone's priority, to ensure that people can afford to put food on the table and a roof over their head? Is that how self centred this nation has become in the last eleven years?

Loughborough University studies found that 41.1% of children in Middlesborough are living in poverty. In one of the richest countries in the world.

I'd imagine most people voting put their own families interests first? I'd have thought that goes without saying really and doesn't make anyone self-centered for doing so.

If you've got young kids you probably care a lot about education for example.

[Northernhibee]

I'd imagine most people voting put their own families interests first? I'd have thought that goes without saying really and doesn't make anyone self-centered for doing so.

If you've got young kids you probably care a lot about education for example.

If you’ve got young kids in certain parts of the country you’ve got not far off a 50/50 chance of them being in poverty.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-refuse-declare-25387334

Is this story “levelling up”? What is it about the Tories that could be “best for your family”? The decaying NHS? Underfunded education system? Overstretched justice system if someone you know is on the wrong end of a crime?

Unless you know a cabinet member and are likely to get a dodgy VIP lane contract, how could they possibly benefit the average family?

[Kato]

Educating kids who don't have enough food in their bellys is really difficult.

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[WhileTheChief..]

You do a lot of defending them singing those songs on here.

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Harping on about this again? I've never defended Rangers fans on here. Ever.

However, if there's a choice between having to listen to hate speech / songs or having government censor free speech then it's a no brainer for me though.

Free speech trumps everything in my book. Without exception.

Who decides what's hate speech? It's s slippery road you're going down when government can tell you what you can or can't say. Go ask a student living in Hong Kong.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/comment/122439/boris-johnson-is-a-dreadful-pm-presiding-over-the-most-shambolic-and-corrupt-government-in-a-hundred-years-and-the-worst-thing-is-the-public-dont-seem-to-care?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=organic_twitter&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1636113170-2


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[Kato]

Harping on about this again? I've never defended Rangers fans on here. Ever.

However, if there's a choice between having to listen to hate speech / songs or having government censor free speech then it's a no brainer for me though.

Free speech trumps everything in my book. Without exception.

Who decides what's hate speech? It's s slippery road you're going down when government can tell you what you can or can't say. Go ask a student living in Hong Kong.

It's nothing to do with government legislation for me. It doesn't work, ir didn't work and won't work. Wasn't up for the SNP's legislation at all and recognised it was put together by people who don't understand football fans and who probably don't like what they imagine football fans are.

That's not say I'm against what they sing. It's a symptom of a "divide and rule" tactic used again and again to control populations. Singling out a community as an "other" so the ruling classes can rest assured they are divided and can continue their exploitation.

Education and solidarity is they way out of that split, not legislation.

It's not the binary choice you present it as.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211105/7a11aca3a56cce9f04bcbe44b13a6154.jpg


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[hibsbollah]

I'd imagine most people voting put their own families interests first? I'd have thought that goes without saying really and doesn't make anyone self-centered for doing so.

If you've got young kids you probably care a lot about education for example.

1. Name something that the current Govt is doing that is putting you, your family’s or your country’s interests first. So we can debate that.

2. What are your thoughts on the Paterson affair, and how is him taking half a million pounds to put policies in place that benefits a particular businessman, benefiting you and your family? How does corruption help you and your family? He’s now walking away to a massive pension and a massive career on the speaking circuit.

[Northernhibee]

Free speech trumps everything in my book. Without exception.
.

I wholeheartedly agree that free speech is absolutely vital.

Which is why I utterly condemn the anti-free speech Tory Party.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8973679/Tory-MPs-urge-Boris-Johnson-war-BBC-National-Trust-wokery.html

[WhileTheChief..]

Can I ask, have you seen the empty shelves in supermarkets recently?

Who do you blame for them?

I don't blame anyone, I can wait a few days to buy more crisps or pasta, it's no big deal really!

Who should I be blaming? Will we just say the f'in Tories and save us all a bit time?!

[Northernhibee]

I don't blame anyone, I can wait a few days to buy more crisps or pasta, it's no big deal really!

Who should I be blaming? Will we just say the f'in Tories and save us all a bit time?!

I miss not having to wait a few days to be able to do my shopping. Nobody put that on the side of a bus.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't blame anyone, I can wait a few days to buy more crisps or pasta, it's no big deal really!

Who should I be blaming? Will we just say the f'in Tories and save us all a bit time?!

So, nothing to do with Brexit then? That's why we have shortages, lack of employees from the EU because they were hounded out by tory government!

[WhileTheChief..]

1. Name something that the current Govt is doing that is putting you, your family’s or your country’s interests first. So we can debate that.

2. What are your thoughts on the Paterson affair, and how is him taking half a million pounds to put policies in place that benefits a particular businessman, benefiting you and your family? How does corruption help you and your family? He’s now walking away to a massive pension and a massive career on the speaking circuit.

1. I can't really, I'm pretty easily pleased though and am happy with the way things are going. Similarly there is nothing the Scottish Gov has done that I can point to and say has made a tangible difference to my life. The one thing I do genuinely give them credit for is the Queensferry Crossing and finishing the M8 upgrade.

In general terms though, I vote Conservative because I'm more for smaller government and more freedom to the individual. I hate the way we have moved so much towards identity politics and the self loathing people seem to have about Britain as a whole. I think we're a tremendous country.

2. Disgusting. He should have been booted out the party when it was proved what he was up to. Clearly none of what he has done benefits me. But it doesn't follow that I should therefore vote for a different party.

People still vote for the SNP despite Derek McKay for example!

[WhileTheChief..]

So, nothing to do with Brexit then? That's why we have shortages, lack of employees from the EU because they were hounded out by tory government!

What reason to folk in other countries give for the empty shelves? It's not a UK issue, it's happening across the world.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't blame anyone, I can wait a few days to buy more crisps or pasta, it's no big deal really!

Who should I be blaming? Will we just say the f'in Tories and save us all a bit time?!

Not everyone lives in big cities where they can go to different places to complete the shopping. I have a 60 mile round trip to the supermarket, that's an extra 90 minutes on the day compared to city dwellers. I can't "wait a few days" because I can only do a supermarket shop once a month.

[Northernhibee]

What reason to folk in other countries give for the empty shelves? It's not a UK issue, it's happening across the world.


https://northeastbylines.co.uk/shortages-a-view-from-europe/

Really?

[Moulin Yarns]

What reason to folk in other countries give for the empty shelves? It's not a UK issue, it's happening across the world.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hunt-for-fruit-pickers-extends-6-000-miles-as-shortage-bites-xtthzl3mp

Like to explain that?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/shortages-a-view-from-europe/

Really?

Surely not another lie from the tories? 🤔😂

[WhileTheChief..]

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/shortages-a-view-from-europe/

Really?

Cool. I'll go into my Coop in the morning and it will have full shelves. If I go in at 5pm it won't!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Cool. I'll go into my Coop in the morning and it will have full shelves. If I go in at 5pm it won't!!

I see that the debate has already collapsed 🤔😁

[Kato]

There's barely any debate to be had on any subject. Offer any view that is remotely Conservative and you're shot down in flames, not in an argument or debate kinda way, just name calling and online abuse.

This is turning out to be a of load nonsense. As ever there is plenty content and examples being given on this thread, like it is every day.

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[Northernhibee]

Cool. I'll go into my Coop in the morning and it will have full shelves. If I go in at 5pm it won't!!

Not cool. Before Brexit availability wasn't an issue, nor was rampant inflation. Why would that ever be a good (or even neutral) thing?

[Kato]

In general terms though, I vote Conservative because I'm more for smaller government and more freedom to the individual.

How does the policy of "levelling up", included in the Conservative manifesto when you voted for them and praised by yourself above, sit next to wanting "small government".

It's impossible to have both.

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[WhileTheChief..]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hunt-for-fruit-pickers-extends-6-000-miles-as-shortage-bites-xtthzl3mp

Like to explain that?

It's not up to me to explain everything the Tories do ffs. There's plenty they do that I probably disagree with.

[Northernhibee]

This is turning out to be a load nonsense. As ever there is plenty content and examples being given on this thread, like it is every day.

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Which is why self pitying attempts to desperately be the victim are the only things that are put forward on the other side. Just like how some Tory MPs have been taking comments on Twitter that are anything but abusive but trying to pass them off as such. When people realise that they are victims of the Tories as opposed to victims of immigration/the EU/the unemployed/the disabled etc. etc. etc. then the blindfold falls off and they can see how they've been played.

[WhileTheChief..]

Which is why self pitying attempts to desperately be the victim are the only things that are put forward on the other side. Just like how some Tory MPs have been taking comments on Twitter that are anything but abusive but trying to pass them off as such. When people realise that they are victims of the Tories as opposed to victims of immigration/the EU/the unemployed/the disabled etc. etc. etc. then the blindfold falls off and they can see how they've been played.

I hope you're not suggesting I think of myself as a victim? I don't.

[WhileTheChief..]

How does the policy of "levelling up", included in the Conservative manifesto when you voted for them and praised by yourself above, sit next to wanting "small government".

It's impossible to have both.

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Ok, you're right. Sorry.

I'll leave you all to it again.

[Northernhibee]

I hope you're not suggesting I think of myself as a victim? I don't.

:top marksIt's disgusting the way that anyone who votes Conservative is treated on this board.

. Offer any view that is remotely Conservative and you're shot down in flames, not in an argument or debate kinda way, just name calling and online abuse.

Seems like you're fine if you read The National or Guardian but you're the Devil incarnate if you read anything else!

Poor you.

Mind you, people have actually engaged in a debate "kinda" thing, but facts and statistics have largely been ignored.

[lapsedhibee]

Now we've got the Conservatives talking about levelling up across the country. I'd have thought everyone on the Left would see that as a positive thing. Get poorer people in the country earning more and giving them more opportunites in life. That's got to be a good thing no?

It's like the Left want to keep people in perpetual poverty instead of trying to lift them out of it.

Please. You genuinely believe that Johnson is sincere about levelling up across the country?

[WhileTheChief..]

Poor you.

Mind you, people have actually engaged in a debate "kinda" thing, but facts and statistics have largely been ignored.

What's with the crappy attitude towards me?

It's just a different take on politics, no need for it at all.

[hibsbollah]

Ok, you're right. Sorry.

I'll leave you all to it again.

Is that it?

I was going to ask you about the minimum wage, a functional NHS, sure start for children, plenty of other policies that I imagine would benefit you and your family and the wider country, but which the Conservative Party fought tooth and nail against. Destroyed mining communities for a bit of extra cash. Levelling up for the North of England is only necessary because it was neglected in the first place. But it’s a phrase of hot air, meaningless. A bunch of cash already previously allocated while universal credit gets slashed. Lots of meaty subjects to talk about which might go some way to trying to explain to you why the Tories are so widely despised by some people.

But you don’t want to, that’s fine. Just don’t pretend there’s any anti Tory bullying going on, that’s just nonsense. You’ve had a fair and polite hearing.

[WhileTheChief..]

Please. You genuinely believe that Johnson is sincere about levelling up across the country?

I do, yeah.

I think he's right when you look at areas that have voted Labour for decades and are no better off. Got be worth trying something different for them no?

[WhileTheChief..]

Is that it?

I was going to ask you about the minimum wage, a functional NHS, sure start for children, plenty of other policies that I imagine would benefit you and your family and the wider country, but which the Conservative Party fought tooth and nail against. Destroyed mining communities for a bit of extra cash. Levelling up for the North of England is only necessary because it was neglected in the first place. But it’s a phrase of hot air, meaningless. A bunch of cash already previously allocated while universal credit gets slashed. Lots of meaty subjects to talk about which might go some way to trying to explain to you why the Tories are so widely despised by some people.

But you don’t want to, that’s fine. Just don’t pretend there’s any anti Tory bullying going on, that’s just nonsense. You’ve had a fair and polite hearing.

Crikey, gimme a chance, I'm at work and there's a of of posts to reply to!

I understand why the Government is despised by some people. I don't understand hating on someone because of who they vote for.

[cabbageandribs1875]

in the times apparently, another Tory called Paterson a ***t in the voting lobby :faf:

[Kato]

Ok, you're right. Sorry.

I'll leave you all to it again.That isn't the point. The point is what your vote is leaving for people way less well off than you ( and your pals) and it could be so much better.

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[One Day Soon]

Not cool. Before Brexit availability wasn't an issue, nor was rampant inflation. Why would that ever be a good (or even neutral) thing?

Inflation is much closer aligned to the consequences of Covid than Brexit. Plenty of other economies getting very skittish about their levels and their rising rates. From memory Brazil, Russia, India, US, Germany and Eurozone all ahead of us as recently as July.

[Kato]

Crikey, gimme a chance, I'm at work and there's a of of posts to reply to!

I understand why the Government is despised by some people. I don't understand hating on someone because of who they vote for.I'm going to 'fess up and admit to calling Tory voters a bad name.

"Mugs" I think it was.

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[neil7908]

Ok, you're right. Sorry.

I'll leave you all to it again.

I think this is a fair point though. As best as I can tell (although it's a bit unclear), leveling up involves pumping loads of public money into various areas that are 'left behind' . Surely that's the total opposite of small government? In fact, is it not socialism?

[ronaldo7]

:top marksIt's disgusting the way that anyone who votes Conservative is treated on this board.

Doubt a thread titled 'Nationalists are lying *******' would have been allowed for so long.

There's barely any debate to be had on any subject. Offer any view that is remotely Conservative and you're shot down in flames, not in an argument or debate kinda way, just name calling and online abuse.

Seems like you're fine if you read The National or Guardian but you're the Devil incarnate if you read anything else!

Meanwhile two pages on, and it looks like you've been in a reasoned debate with others on this thread. Do you want to take back your disparaging comment above?

[WhileTheChief..]

Is that it?

I was going to ask you about the minimum wage, a functional NHS, sure start for children, plenty of other policies that I imagine would benefit you and your family and the wider country, but which the Conservative Party fought tooth and nail against. Destroyed mining communities for a bit of extra cash. Levelling up for the North of England is only necessary because it was neglected in the first place. But it’s a phrase of hot air, meaningless. A bunch of cash already previously allocated while universal credit gets slashed. Lots of meaty subjects to talk about which might go some way to trying to explain to you why the Tories are so widely despised by some people.

But you don’t want to, that’s fine. Just don’t pretend there’s any anti Tory bullying going on, that’s just nonsense. You’ve had a fair and polite hearing.

Minimum or living wage has been increasing recently, not got a problem with that at all.

Personally I think the NHS is fine. You could double it's annual budget every year and it will never be enough.

Don't know what Sure Start is so can't comment on that.

Closing the mines was controversial at the time but was the right thing to do.

Ok, so the North of England was ignored in the past, let's at least try and fix it now though yeah?

The chat here since I posted that has been civil and fine, go back through some of the thread though and you'll see what I was referring to though.

I don't go reading every political manifesto or considering every policy before I decide who to vote for. Like a lot of people, I look to the leaders and what they are about.

I couldn't stand Corbyn or anything he stood for. I like Boris though, and I do believe him when he talks about levelling up. I like his positive outlook on things..

I'm not in favour of independence so despite admiring Sturgeon I could never vote for her. I voted for Brexit. I still believe it was the right thing to do.

[WhileTheChief..]

Meanwhile two pages on, and it looks like you've been in a reasoned debate with others on this thread. Do you want to take back your disparaging comment above?

Noted in my last post before I saw this.

Go back and read some earlier pages though.....

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59177409

Corruption plain and simple.


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[Ozyhibby]

1. I can't really, I'm pretty easily pleased though and am happy with the way things are going. Similarly there is nothing the Scottish Gov has done that I can point to and say has made a tangible difference to my life. The one thing I do genuinely give them credit for is the Queensferry Crossing and finishing the M8 upgrade.

In general terms though, I vote Conservative because I'm more for smaller government and more freedom to the individual. I hate the way we have moved so much towards identity politics and the self loathing people seem to have about Britain as a whole. I think we're a tremendous country.

2. Disgusting. He should have been booted out the party when it was proved what he was up to. Clearly none of what he has done benefits me. But it doesn't follow that I should therefore vote for a different party.

People still vote for the SNP despite Derek McKay for example!

Do the Tories still believe in small govt? We’re taxed now more than we have ever been taxed in my lifetime and we are 12 years into a Tory govt?


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[Northernhibee]

...I like Boris though, and I do believe him...


:whistle:

[ronaldo7]

Noted in my last post before I saw this.

Go back and read some earlier pages though.....

I've read them thanks.

It seems when the going gets a bit tough, the tories do a runner, so kudos to you for staying so long. They all seem to come out when the FM or her predecessor are getting reamed by the MSM (I think I counted about 6 smoking guns), but run for the hills when it's about their precious Union.

Boris and co, are just a bunch of spivs looking to make a quick buck imo, and the evidence is staring us all in the face. Some folk just don't want to see it though.

The I'm alright Jacks.

[WhileTheChief..]

I've read them thanks.

It seems when the going gets a bit tough, the tories do a runner, so kudos to you for staying so long. They all seem to come out when the FM or her predecessor are getting reamed by the MSM (I think I counted about 6 smoking guns), but run for the hills when it's about their precious Union.

Boris and co, are just a bunch of spivs looking to make a quick buck imo, and the evidence is staring us all in the face. Some folk just don't want to see it though.

The I'm alright Jacks.

I guess I see the opposite!!

I rarely see the media giving Nicola Sturgeon a hard time.

I NEVER see Ian Blackfrod questioned on anything. I see him as a complete embarrassment to Scotland who gets to spout his guff very week unchallenged.

I obviously don't agree with your last sentence. It's not that I don't want to see it, I just don't see it.

I think Boris is a genuinely decent bloke who wants to help others. I also think Nicola Sturgeon wants to help others. They just have a different take on how to do it. Is that really so bad?

[grunt]

I voted for Brexit. I still believe it was the right thing to do.Can I ask why?

[Moulin Yarns]

It's not up to me to explain everything the Tories do ffs. There's plenty they do that I probably disagree with.

Talk about debate, then shut down the debate when it becomes difficult to justify. 🤔🙄

[ronaldo7]

I guess I see the opposite!!

I rarely see the media giving Nicola Sturgeon a hard time.

I NEVER see Ian Blackfrod questioned on anything. I see him as a complete embarrassment to Scotland who gets to spout his guff very week unchallenged.

I obviously don't agree with your last sentence. It's not that I don't want to see it, I just don't see it.

I think Boris is a genuinely decent bloke who wants to help others. I also think Nicola Sturgeon wants to help others. They just have a different take on how to do it. Is that really so bad?

You're not paying attention then. The difference is palpable the way they treat your party in Scotland to the devolved governing parties.

Blackford was on BBC NEWS last night. You might have missed it.

If you think Boris is a decent bloke, then I'm afraid you're definitely not paying attention. It's there if you want to see it, as you say though, you don't see it.

Peace out.

[Moulin Yarns]

What have the tories ever done for us?


https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexit-wipes-17bn-off-uk-trade-with-the-eu-in-just-three-months-300061/?fbclid=IwAR2MqlUabJ-2SgUweWGX0a4HN972m738fWz33TEuNo5ami5X8dXcr8dz-MQ

[ronaldo7]

Minimum or living wage has been increasing recently, not got a problem with that at all.

Personally I think the NHS is fine. You could double it's annual budget every year and it will never be enough.

Don't know what Sure Start is so can't comment on that.

Closing the mines was controversial at the time but was the right thing to do.

Ok, so the North of England was ignored in the past, let's at least try and fix it now though yeah?

The chat here since I posted that has been civil and fine, go back through some of the thread though and you'll see what I was referring to though.

I don't go reading every political manifesto or considering every policy before I decide who to vote for. Like a lot of people, I look to the leaders and what they are about.

I couldn't stand Corbyn or anything he stood for. I like Boris though, and I do believe him when he talks about levelling up. I like his positive outlook on things..

I'm not in favour of independence so despite admiring Sturgeon I could never vote for her. I voted for Brexit. I still believe it was the right thing to do.

With all the evidence currently available, why is it still the right thing to have been done?

[grunt]

I think Boris is a genuinely decent bloke who wants to help others.Decent bloke?


A journalist who Boris Johnson (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/boris-johnson) secretly discussed helping a friend to have beaten up has demanded an apology from the Conservative leadership candidate as he stands on the brink of Downing Street.Stuart Collier, the journalist who was at the centre of the incident nearly 30 years ago, said Johnson was not fit to be prime minister.
In 1990, Johnson was secretly recorded agreeing to provide the address of the News of the World (https://www.theguardian.com/media/newsoftheworld) reporter Stuart Collier to his friend Darius Guppy, who wanted to arrange for the journalist to have his ribs cracked as revenge for investigating his activities.

[One Day Soon]

Noted in my last post before I saw this.

Go back and read some earlier pages though.....


You might be best to either formally put some people on ignore (I'm not sure how you do that but I've seen posters refer to it) or just do it yourself informally. Just because someone posts in a thread you have contributed to doesn't mean you have to either read them, answer them or even engage with them. Some people here debate with good intent, others don't. It's probably best to decide who you think isn't gratuitously abusive or mindlessly inflexible and go from there. Between posters themselves generally and the admins in particular .net tends to self-regulate most of the worst off the site eventually one way or another.

I think you are absolutely wrong about Johnson. I think he is one of the very worst exponents of populism in a way that is cancerous to our politics. The first two paras of the Wiki definition describe it well:

"Populism refers to a range of political stances that emphasize the idea of "the people" and often juxtapose this group against "the elite" or "the establishment". The term developed in the late 19th century in connection to the Populist Party and has been applied to various politicians, parties and movements since that time, often derisively by opponents. Within political science and other social sciences, several different definitions of populism have been employed, with some scholars proposing that the term be rejected altogether.


A common framework for interpreting populism is known as the ideational approach: this defines populism as an ideology which presents "the people" as a morally good force and contrasts them against "the elite", who are portrayed as corrupt and self-serving. Populists differ in how "the people" are defined, but it can be based along class, ethnic, or national lines.[citation needed] Populists typically present "the elite" as comprising the political, economic, cultural, and media establishment, depicted as a homogeneous entity and accused of placing their own interests, and often the interests of other groups—such as large corporations, foreign countries, or immigrants—above the interests of "the people". Populist parties and social movements are often led by charismatic or dominant figures who present themselves as the "voice of the people". According to the ideational approach, populism is often combined with other ideologies, such as nationalism, liberalism, or socialism. Thus, populists can be found at different locations along the left–right political spectrum, and there exist both left-wing populism and right-wing populism."

[WhileTheChief..]

Talk about debate, then shut down the debate when it becomes difficult to justify. 🤔🙄

Sorry, you've lost me, i'm not trying to shut anything down but I'm also not going to pretend i know the ins and outs of every damn policy the Conservatives come up with.

Look, I'm not a political junkie that follows very news story or policy closely. I'm not remotely involved in politics and I don't have the answers you are looking for.

I'm a regular working class guy that votes differently to you guys. Can't you show a bit of tolerance to other people's views?

I'll just ignore the smiley's that you keep using to try and patronise me.

[blackpoolhibs]

Boris Johnson a decent bloke?

He's a liar and a cheat who's only interested in his mates and his own bank balance.

He's up there with the worst prime minister we've ever had, the guy is a clown who wouldn't know the truth if it bit him on the arse.

A decent guy. :brickwall

[WhileTheChief..]

You might be best to either formally put some people on ignore (I'm not sure how you do that but I've seen posters refer to it) or just do it yourself informally. Just because someone posts in a thread you have contributed to doesn't mean you have to either read them, answer them or even engage with them. Some people here debate with good intent, others don't. It's probably best to decide who you think isn't gratuitously abusive or mindlessly inflexible and go from there. Between posters themselves generally and the admins in particular .net tends to self-regulate most of the worst off the site eventually one way or another.


This thread is 50+ pages. Other than today you'll be hard pushed to find 5 or 6 posts from me on it.

If i replied to everyone that i disagreed with on here I'd have been banned ages ago!

[One Day Soon]

This thread is 50+ pages. Other than today you'll be hard pushed to find 5 or 6 posts from me on it.

If i replied to everyone that i disagreed with on here I'd have been banned ages ago!


The tolling of the 'Left By Mutual Consent' bell is generally a pretty happy sound.

[lapsedhibee]

I like Boris though, and I do believe him

Aw, man. I don't think even Johnson believes what he says now.

[WhileTheChief..]

With all the evidence currently available, why is it still the right thing to have been done?

Not to open a whole new can of worms but in a similar way that i said I prefer small government, I also prefer less government, closer to the people that they are accountable to.

I think in the long run Brexit will massively benefit all of us.

[WhileTheChief..]

Aw, man. I don't think even Johnson believes what he says now.

Fair do's :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Not to open a whole new can of worms but in a similar way that i said I prefer small government, I also prefer less government, closer to the people that they are accountable to.

I think in the long run Brexit will massively benefit all of us.

Govt from Holyrood is nice and close.[emoji6]
And the Tories are not a party of small govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

The tolling of the 'Left By Mutual Consent' bell is generally a pretty happy sound.

Does that mean you think I should be binned??:confused:

[WhileTheChief..]

Govt from Holyrood is nice and close.[emoji6]
And the Tories are not a party of small govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah i saw this point coming but I can't do Brexit, Tories are all Bs and Independence all at the same time!

[Moulin Yarns]

Not to open a whole new can of worms but in a similar way that i said I prefer small government, I also prefer less government, closer to the people that they are accountable to.

I think in the long run Brexit will massively benefit all of us.

You'll have a long wait then!!


What have the tories ever done for us?


https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexit-wipes-17bn-off-uk-trade-with-the-eu-in-just-three-months-300061/?fbclid=IwAR2MqlUabJ-2SgUweWGX0a4HN972m738fWz33TEuNo5ami5X8dXcr8dz-MQ

In the same way that Independence will massively benefit all of us, in the long run!! :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!

[One Day Soon]

Govt from Holyrood is nice and close.[emoji6]
And the Tories are not a party of small govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Scottish ones certainly don't seem to be and Johnson absolutely isn't. I think up here they're still in favour of creating a whole load of smaller local authorities which they would see as being a lot more accountable to their communities. I think but I could have this wrong - that its an idea lifted from either the Norwegian or Swedish experience.

Johnson's willingness to spend is so incontinent that Sunak and the dryer, more conventional Tories are already pretty pissed off about it. Unfortunately I think that Johnson's spend propensity - while absolutely the right think to do in the current circumstances rather than more austerity, if correctly targeted - is generally politically motivated incoherent rubbish.

[One Day Soon]

Does that mean you think I should be binned??:confused:

No. It's an observation that the more intolerant 'build an empty room just so that they can then go and start a fight in one on their own' types tend to end up binned.

[Kato]

Not to open a whole new can of worms but in a similar way that i said I prefer small government, I also prefer less government, closer to the people that they are accountable to.



I felt the EU were far closer to the UK populace and understood what ordinary people wanted way more than a entitled, upper class, never wanted for nothing, guy who went to Eton.

The SNP are surely closer to the people of Scotland than the Conservative Party who treat and talk about Scotland as though they own it.

[One Day Soon]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!


That question is probably worth starting a thread in its own right. You MAY find others, after all some people thought Jarko Wiss was a good thing...

[Moulin Yarns]

The Scottish ones certainly don't seem to be and Johnson absolutely isn't. I think up here they're still in favour of creating a whole load of smaller local authorities which they would see as being a lot more accountable to their communities. I think but I could have this wrong - that its an idea lifted from either the Norwegian or Swedish experience.

Johnson's willingness to spend is so incontinent that Sunak and the dryer, more conventional Tories are already pretty pissed off about it. Unfortunately I think that Johnson's spend propensity - while absolutely the right think to do in the current circumstances rather than more austerity, if correctly targeted - is generally politically motivated incoherent rubbish.

Definitely Nordic

https://www.nordichorizons.org/category/local-democracy/

I didn't think it was also a Tory policy though.

[Moulin Yarns]

I felt the EU were far closer to the UK populace and understood what ordinary people wanted way more than a entitled, upper class, never wanted for nothing, guy who went to Eton.

The SNP are surely closer to the people of Scotland than the Conservative Party who treat and talk about Scotland as though they own it.

You could be right :wink:

http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/index.php

[Hibrandenburg]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!

:tumble:

[One Day Soon]

:tumbleweed


TBF you've only given it 30 minutes and the echo chamber will need longer than that to attract external interest... :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

TBF you've only given it 30 minutes and the echo chamber will need longer than that to attract external interest... :greengrin

:greengrin

It is an incredibly effective way to close a debate on Hibsnet though. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

:greengrin

It is an incredibly effective way to close a debate on Hibsnet though. :wink:

Well I'm all for that :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

:greengrin

It is an incredibly effective way to close a debate on Hibsnet though. :wink:

To be honest, this is a thread about the tories, and one tory can't answer all the questions. It needs a few more, but where are we going to find them?

[grunt]

Not to open a whole new can of worms but in a similar way that i said I prefer small government, I also prefer less government, closer to the people that they are accountable to. I think in the long run Brexit will massively benefit all of us.
Small government eh? Do you mean less red tape?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=6742625#post6742625


Brexit wipes £17bn off UK trade with the EU in just three months (thelondoneconomic.com) (https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexit-wipes-17bn-off-uk-trade-with-the-eu-in-just-three-months-300061/?fbclid=IwAR2MqlUabJ-2SgUweWGX0a4HN972m738fWz33TEuNo5ami5X8dXcr8dz-MQ)

Brexit red tape has slashed £17 billion from UK trade with the European Union in just three months as businesses struggle to keep up with new costs, a spending watchdog revealed.

Despite promises from the Leave campaign that red tape would fade after Britain quit the EU, UK companies have had to fill in an astonishing 48 million customs declarations and 140,000 export health certificates in the eight months since the UK quit the single market and customs union , according to the National Audit Office (NAO).

The watchdog’s report also warned that the government could face action for not “complying with international trading rules” – but that when controls are finally introduced, they will bring “significant risks” to traders.

[hibsbollah]

That question is probably worth starting a thread in its own right. You MAY find others, after all some people thought Jarko Wiss was a good thing...

Best left footed player in Europe….

[hibsbollah]

Minimum or living wage has been increasing recently, not got a problem with that at all.

Personally I think the NHS is fine. You could double it's annual budget every year and it will never be enough.

Don't know what Sure Start is so can't comment on that.

Closing the mines was controversial at the time but was the right thing to do.

Ok, so the North of England was ignored in the past, let's at least try and fix it now though yeah?

The chat here since I posted that has been civil and fine, go back through some of the thread though and you'll see what I was referring to though.

I don't go reading every political manifesto or considering every policy before I decide who to vote for. Like a lot of people, I look to the leaders and what they are about.

I couldn't stand Corbyn or anything he stood for. I like Boris though, and I do believe him when he talks about levelling up. I like his positive outlook on things..

I'm not in favour of independence so despite admiring Sturgeon I could never vote for her. I voted for Brexit. I still believe it was the right thing to do.

Well I appreciate you answering the questions anyway. It doesn’t often happen and makes the forum more interesting when folk do. I’ll make a similar effort if you have any of me.

[lapsedhibee]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!

GBYoung and FalkirkHibee will agree with you on many things. GBYoung's currently in hiding and FalkirkHibee's changed his name. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

GBYoung and FalkirkHibby will agree with you on many things. GBYoung's currently in hiding and FalkirkHibby's changed his name. :greengrin

There’s another couple of right wingers sometimes post on here, James and Paul. And He’s here! And that Lucifer felly.

[Lendo]

There’s another couple of right wingers sometimes post on here, James and Paul. And He’s here! And that Lucifer felly.

hahaha! I forgot about the Luciferian conspiracy stuff. Ahh the good old days.

[Smartie]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!

I've never voted Conservative, I'm in favour of independence and I'm vehemently anti-Brexit, however...

I'm open to the idea of right of centre thinking on certain subjects. I actually think Scotland as a whole would be stronger for being a bit more open minded to right of centre thinking but Scotland unfortunately carries some very deep scars from the damage inflicted by Tory governments over the past few decades and can be forgiven for being deeply mistrusting. If you feel you're copping a hard time on here, that's probably why.

My views vary from the wildly left wing to the moderately right wing from subject to subject based on my life's experiences so far. Scotland has a shamefully grotesque inequality of opportunity and until that is properly addressed, I don't think you can back the implementation of too many right wing policies with a clear conscience. It leaves too many behind through no fault of their own.

I'm more interested that the politics suit the population. Right wing countries (like the USA and England are currently) should have the right wing governments they elected, be comfortable with the pros and cons that go with that, and make a success of it. Scandinavian nations, with their different set of values, should have politics that reflect that set of values.

Where does that leave Scotland? Scotland is a weird place that I've grown to loathe more than love as I've got older. It's a wonderful place for a small number of people. It's hellish for a similar number. It's ok for the majority. It should do so, so, much better given the abundance of resource with which it has been blessed. That is a frustration that simply aches more as time goes by. It would be fair to say that voting conservative, against independence and in favour of Brexit only makes that situation worse, not better, in my opinion.

[Keith_M]

I'd imagine most people voting put their own families interests first? I'd have thought that goes without saying really and doesn't make anyone self-centered for doing so.

If you've got young kids you probably care a lot about education for example.


So what is it specifically that the Tories do for you and your family that earns them your vote?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tories in Bozo's constituency today....

"They're a bunch of c***s" :greengrin


https://youtu.be/gPb11xHqgPY

[Kato]

Tories in Bozo's constituency today....

"They're a bunch of c***s" :greengrin


https://youtu.be/gPb11xHqgPYSurely the worst thing about that is that someone has had the temerity to call the Torys "a bunch of c***s". Never mind the lies, the scuttling of business since Brexit, the latest uncovered bribery euphemised as sleaze, the monetising of a pandemic in favour of themselves and their pals - SOMEONE CALLED THEM A BAD WORD.

This won't worry them. Before the next election some sort of flag wavy, anti Labour, unthinking nonsense which stokes patriotic crap in the electorates breasts, as opposed to their brains, will be concocted and they will all vote Tory again. Maybe not the guy who called them c***ts though.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

This won't worry them.

Might worry Nadine Dorries. She's very keen to get rid of all hate speech (except her own, obviously). Might try and close down Byline as they've broadcast a female-oriented slur.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1456656898338525189

[Bostonhibby]

Best left footed player in Europe….Bring him home.....

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

Might worry Nadine Dorries. She's very keen to get rid of all hate speech (except her own, obviously). Might try and close down Byline as they've broadcast a female-oriented slur.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1456656898338525189

just like her boss, has a wee laugh at herself thinking she's a jokey funny individual, but no one joins in


i expect peerages for her daughters

[Jack]

If the torys weren't a bunch of perpetual lying *******s this thread wouldn't exist.

If people didn't vote for them, knowing what they're like, there would be no issues of perceived victimisation.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

I think these threads suffer eventually from becoming a mass pile on in which we all post links to apocalyptic stories about how evil they are. It’s the echo chambers’ echo chamber.

There must be dozens of Tories on Hibs net that could try and defend either the Scottish iterations of Davison and dRoss, or Boris and chums? From the point of view of trickle down economics, nation first, something? After all, it’s not like nobody votes for them.

I appreciate the diversity of opinion on here. Lets bear in mind, for some people in this country, their football teams are tied to their politics and entire world view. Thankfully, Hibs fans think for themselves. I like the idea that we can all sit next to each other following the same team, as well as having different political positions and our own views on all and any topics.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!

Brexit: I was torn. In the end I decided to support it. I still don't know if it's the right thing to have done. It is done now however and we have to make it work and do it with confidence.
Independence: I'm against it. I don’t have any confidence in the SNP and many of their policies worry me. They want the state to be all powerful, and that for me is at odds with the Scottish mindset. They have fully embraced 'wokeness' and they seem intent on implementing its tenets everywhere. I have absolute confidence in Scottish people of course, and if we go it alone, we'll make it, I just don't favour the idea at this time. I genuinely think remaining in UK makes more sense. The SNP stirs up nationalist sentiment to encourage people to vote with their hearts not their heads.
Voting: I would prefer a Federal system - Scottish, Northern Irish(depending on what they decide to do), Welsh, Northern England and Southern England parliaments. I've voted for both of the big two over the years. Labour for me has completely abandoned the working class in favour of middle class champagne socialists who live in the main metropolitan centres. They treat working class men in particular with complete disdain. These are the very people who sneer and look down their noses at football fans. The Tories are a weird mix of old Conservative values oddly mixed with more socially liberal ideas. Boris Johnson is not a good PM. He cannot relate to the man in the street. He also looks at the working man with disdain. He’s out of touch. I am politically homeless. None of these parties offers anything that I am interested in. Politics in general has degraded to the level of pantomime. All parties now seem to think they have the right to rule and not serve. Ideally, a new party will emerge which is close to the centre. Common sense politics. Equal opportunities for all but no guarantee of equality of outcome. No more identity politics Each person is seen for what they are, a human being. No more references to race, gender or sexuality. You are just a person and you have the right to be treated with dignity and respect for that reason alone. No more house of lords. It has no place in a modern democracy. If you want be a politician or have political influence, work for it and encourage people to vote for you, as opposed to assuming the right by virtue of birth-right. No monarchy, it has to go, it's ridiculous. On some issues I'm right of centre and on others left of centre. I believe in a reasonable welfare state an support the NHS. On the other hand, I am concerned by the acceptance of the collectivist woke left. It has become cult like. Every area of our lives now comes under the scrutiny of the pc mob. If they say you’re a witch, you're a witch and anyone who defends you is a witch too. The SNP, Labour and to a lesser extend the Conservatives have embraced this. Do we all want to see an end to racism? Of course we do. Are there more than 2 genders? Of course there aren't. At this point, if someone decides they are offended, then someone has to be in the wrong and must be punished. I love the fact that the one thing we all have in common is Hibernian Football Club. We don't all have to agree on one set of ideas. Diversity of opinion should be encouraged. You are welcome to disagree as strongly as you like. I think this poster feels he is at odds with his fellow supporters because he has different from views from majority. We should welcome debate and allow people to say their piece. Dismissing people as ‘right wingers’ is petty name calling and too simplistic. Many people are not sure exactly who to vote for, have mixed views and don’t need to be Pidgeon-holed. Anyway, for crying out loud, another long post. I'll shut up now.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

I've never voted Conservative, I'm in favour of independence and I'm vehemently anti-Brexit, however...

I'm open to the idea of right of centre thinking on certain subjects. I actually think Scotland as a whole would be stronger for being a bit more open minded to right of centre thinking but Scotland unfortunately carries some very deep scars from the damage inflicted by Tory governments over the past few decades and can be forgiven for being deeply mistrusting. If you feel you're copping a hard time on here, that's probably why.

My views vary from the wildly left wing to the moderately right wing from subject to subject based on my life's experiences so far. Scotland has a shamefully grotesque inequality of opportunity and until that is properly addressed, I don't think you can back the implementation of too many right wing policies with a clear conscience. It leaves too many behind through no fault of their own.

I'm more interested that the politics suit the population. Right wing countries (like the USA and England are currently) should have the right wing governments they elected, be comfortable with the pros and cons that go with that, and make a success of it. Scandinavian nations, with their different set of values, should have politics that reflect that set of values.

Where does that leave Scotland? Scotland is a weird place that I've grown to loathe more than love as I've got older. It's a wonderful place for a small number of people. It's hellish for a similar number. It's ok for the majority. It should do so, so, much better given the abundance of resource with which it has been blessed. That is a frustration that simply aches more as time goes by. It would be fair to say that voting conservative, against independence and in favour of Brexit only makes that situation worse, not better, in my opinion.


A really thoughtful post. I appreciate that you're open enough to say your views vary depending on the subject. I have said something similar to this poster. We may not agree on everything, but we can agree to disagree. I think it's important to hear alternative views. I am absolutely open to changing my mind on a subject if a better argument is put forward. I feel the same about Scotland now. There are things I love about it, but it other ways I feel we can be small minded and parochial. You are right to point our the difference in quality of life between those with the most and those with the least. Independence concerns me because I fear that the problems we have have will worsen. Of course you believe the opposite and I respect your right to have that point of view. It is not good enough that life expectancy in some areas of Glasgow is on par with African nations. Alcoholism, drug abuse and that old scourge of sectarianism still exist and have only improved marginally. I have lost faith in the main parties. I enjoy robust discussion. All too often though, discussions descend in to name calling, etc. Keep that open mind of yours and feel free to disagree with any time.

[Crunchie]

Is there anyone else on this thread / forum that votes Conservative, is against Independence and was for Brexit?!!

Am i out here on my own??!!!
Sorry mate, I like you was at work but unable to get online. Just getting ready to go back in, some of us have to try and help with the levelling up :aok:. I'm not against Independence per say only as long as we want to be chained to the EU.

[One Day Soon]

John Major absolutely roasted Boris Johnson and the coterie of crank hard Brexiteers surrounding him this morning in Radio 4. A moderate Tory shoving it to the parasite extremists currently running the country after hijacking that party. Really uplifting to hear.

[WhileTheChief..]

Anyway, for crying out loud, another long post. I'll shut up now.

Decent reply, you should post more often!

The point you make about 'wokeness' is a good one.

The whole issue around identity politics is just wrong. The SNP have fully embraced it though and want to run with it.

They'd get rid of the terms Mr & Mrs if they thought they could and have us all being Ms. Watch this space!

It's probably my biggest gripe against the SNP., along with Indy obv.

As for labour, totally agree about them being for posh socialists these days.

In the 90s I'd have been classed as Mondeo man and would probably have been a typical Blair voter. Not a chance in Hell i could vote Labour these days.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/569bebd394fd0ab9df4d3fdb474bb8c2.jpg

Written by Tory Mathew Parris.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

We get the politicians and governments we deserve. Millions voted for them.


https://youtu.be/NhiIUFB6hIw

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1456601290096660482?s=21

This is good from James O’Brien


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhileTheChief..]

I've never voted Conservative, I'm in favour of independence and I'm vehemently anti-Brexit, however...

I'm open to the idea of right of centre thinking on certain subjects. I actually think Scotland as a whole would be stronger for being a bit more open minded to right of centre thinking but Scotland unfortunately carries some very deep scars from the damage inflicted by Tory governments over the past few decades and can be forgiven for being deeply mistrusting. If you feel you're copping a hard time on here, that's probably why.

My views vary from the wildly left wing to the moderately right wing from subject to subject based on my life's experiences so far. Scotland has a shamefully grotesque inequality of opportunity and until that is properly addressed, I don't think you can back the implementation of too many right wing policies with a clear conscience. It leaves too many behind through no fault of their own.

I'm more interested that the politics suit the population. Right wing countries (like the USA and England are currently) should have the right wing governments they elected, be comfortable with the pros and cons that go with that, and make a success of it. Scandinavian nations, with their different set of values, should have politics that reflect that set of values.

Where does that leave Scotland? Scotland is a weird place that I've grown to loathe more than love as I've got older. It's a wonderful place for a small number of people. It's hellish for a similar number. It's ok for the majority. It should do so, so, much better given the abundance of resource with which it has been blessed. That is a frustration that simply aches more as time goes by. It would be fair to say that voting conservative, against independence and in favour of Brexit only makes that situation worse, not better, in my opinion.

Missed this post earlier, thanks for the reply.

Agree with most of what you say apart from the last sentence obviously.

[Kato]

The point you make about 'wokeness' is a good one.

The whole issue around identity politics is just wrong.


I get confused sometimes about this term as it means something different every day.

What do you see as "wokeness" and why do you think it is wrong?

[Pretty Boy]

The fundamental issue the Tories have is they are creating a whole generation who having nothing to conserve. What use are the Conservatives then?

The middle class are being obliterated, wages aren't keeping pace with the cost of living, home ownership is stagnating whilst property prices continue to rise, the cost of renting is running out of control, education saddles young people in England with tens of thousands of pounds of debt.....

The current popularity that seems largely based on jingoism, yearning for a golden age that never existed and rampant exceptionalism screams last hurrah to me.

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1456601290096660482?s=21

This is good from James O’Brien


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good, and so depressing.

[WhileTheChief..]

I get confused sometimes about this term as it means something different every day.

What do you see as "wokeness" and why do you think it is wrong?

Ok, I'll bite...

Sensitive subject but here goes.

After the killing of George Floyd, this forum, and social media everywhere across the world, was full of people posting about how bad it was and how much they hate racism.

On Instagram, everyone posted black squares to show their solidarity for example, stuff like that.

It was the main subject on the news and everybody was talking about it.

They were talking about it so much, it was like everyone was trying to outdo each other in the 'i think racism is bad' stakes.

That's the Woke part right there.

Fast forward to now.

When's the last time anyone on here even mentioned George Floyd? Totally forgotten about.

And yet, when it happened it was like we'd lost a family member going by some of the stuff you read on social media. My view, is that a lot of that outpouring of 'grief' was simply folk trying to show they hate racism to feel accepted. To show they're a better person than the next.

Where are the threads now with people talking about what they're doing differently in their lives since it happened? Why's no one keeping it front and centre anymore?

It's because it's not on the news. It's not fashionable this year.

Instead, everyone is posting about Green they are.

Woke.

Next year it will be something else.

[Hibrandenburg]

The whole issue around identity politics is just wrong. The SNP have fully embraced it though and want to run with it.

They'd get rid of the terms Mr & Mrs if they thought they could and have us all being Ms. Watch this space!

What an utterly ridiculous thing to even say, never mind actually believe.

[bigwheel]

Ok, I'll bite...

Sensitive subject but here goes.

After the killing of George Floyd, this forum, and social media everywhere across the world, was full of people posting about how bad it was and how much they hate racism.

On Instagram, everyone posted black squares to show their solidarity for example, stuff like that.

It was the main subject on the news and everybody was talking about it.

They were talking about it so much, it was like everyone was trying to outdo each other in the 'i think racism is bad' stakes.

That's the Woke part right there.

Fast forward to now.

When's the last time anyone on here even mentioned George Floyd? Totally forgotten about.

And yet, when it happened it was like we'd lost a family member going by some of the stuff you read on social media. My view, is that a lot of that outpouring of 'grief' was simply folk trying to show they hate racism to feel accepted. To show they're a better person than the next.

Where are the threads now with people talking about what they're doing differently in their lives since it happened? Why's no one keeping it front and centre anymore?

It's because it's not on the news. It's not fashionable this year.

Instead, everyone is posting about Green they are.

Woke.

Next year it will be something else.

I think that’s your version of the situation. To me, Equality, diversity and inclusion remains a major topic . In everyday life and in the workplace people are much more aware of prejudice and inequalities. Delighted that’s the case…

Black Live matter fight goes on, and yes people are repurposing the term woke as a negative thing, but for me it remains a positive term. It was derived to note those who were becoming alert to the prejudices faced by many minorities. If you want to use it that way, then so be it…but it is a right if centre view of the term, which does nothing to recognise where is grew from.

We talk about current topics across all domains a lot on this forum. It’s driven by the news cycle. Just because we do so, doesn’t mean we care less about topics of last year, whether it’s about football, politics or prejudice….that’s just the nature of social forums…..


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[Pretty Boy]

What an utterly ridiculous thing to even say, never mind actually believe.

It's something that seems to be on the increase. People getting really upset about hypothetical scenarios they have quite literally made up.

[CropleyWasGod]

I get confused sometimes about this term as it means something different every day.

What do you see as "wokeness" and why do you think it is wrong?

"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.

[Ozyhibby]

The fundamental issue the Tories have is they are creating a whole generation who having nothing to conserve. What use are the Conservatives then?

The middle class are being obliterated, wages aren't keeping pace with the cost of living, home ownership is stagnating whilst property prices continue to rise, the cost of renting is running out of control, education saddles young people in England with tens of thousands of pounds of debt.....

The current popularity that seems largely based on jingoism, yearning for a golden age that never existed and rampant exceptionalism screams last hurrah to me.

I agree with you about the coming generation of young people. They are being denied the same opportunities my generation had.
It’s often said that as you grow older you are more likely to vote Tory as you start to accumulate some wealth in your property etc. That is not going to be such a factor soon as young people nowadays are not getting on the property ladder the way we managed to. They won’t have as much wealth to protect.
The situation will be the same for the Union. They may find that people don’t move to supporting the union as they get older because they don’t have mortgages that they think need protecting from change. Since 2014 the polls have moved in favour of independence to the point where it’s almost neck and neck. Is this due to the case being made for Indy cutting through or is it due to older voters dying off and being replaced by younger more pro Indy young people?


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[hibsbollah]

"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.

Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

[CropleyWasGod]

Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

I agree. But the use of the word these days is generally more negative than positive.

[Northernhibee]

What is Brexit if not identity politics? “We are England and we demand to be seen as the war winning, colonising, tubthumping world beating biggest country in the world, nobody likes us we don’t care”. It’s got **** all to do with reality.

Listening to people talk about how they’d prefer to be treated and addressed isn’t politics, it’s common decency.

[Kato]

Ok, I'll bite...

Sensitive subject but here goes.

After the killing of George Floyd, this forum, and social media everywhere across the world, was full of people posting about how bad it was and how much they hate racism.

On Instagram, everyone posted black squares to show their solidarity for example, stuff like that.

It was the main subject on the news and everybody was talking about it.

They were talking about it so much, it was like everyone was trying to outdo each other in the 'i think racism is bad' stakes.

That's the Woke part right there.

Fast forward to now.

When's the last time anyone on here even mentioned George Floyd? Totally forgotten about.

And yet, when it happened it was like we'd lost a family member going by some of the stuff you read on social media. My view, is that a lot of that outpouring of 'grief' was simply folk trying to show they hate racism to feel accepted. To show they're a better person than the next.

Where are the threads now with people talking about what they're doing differently in their lives since it happened? Why's no one keeping it front and centre anymore?

It's because it's not on the news. It's not fashionable this year.

Instead, everyone is posting about Green they are.

Woke.

Next year it will be something else.


Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/4098587e8402906ae691426b7262a4dc.jpg


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[Northernhibee]

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Staggering.

[hibsbollah]

I agree. But the use of the word these days is generally more negative than positive.

Definitely.

[Callum_62]

Seems fair to remove money from education and healthcare if you don't vote to cover up corruption [emoji106]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/9672daa6e0609270f9a06e07f7df82ff.jpg

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[Keith_M]

My personal opinion of how Brexit happened was that a large number of Tory MPs panicked when they saw the rising popularity of UKIP and were afraid they'd lose their jobs to UKIP candidates, so were open to having a referendum purely to win over those same voters.

This backfired massively and is the reason that Johnson, who was the person appointed by the Conservatives to front the campaign, disappeared from view for what seemed like months and both him and Cameron left Theresa May to carry the can.

They are now led by this charlatan, a person that seems to have no morals and no genuine political viewpoints, only greed and self interest. He didn't appoint himself as Prime Minister, he was voted into his position as Prime Ministerial candidate by his fellow Conservative MPs.

His party appear to exist for nothing other than self interest, and the people who vote for them seem to share that self interest (going by the comments on here from Tory Voters).



Obviously, everybody has the right to vote for who they think serves their interests.. but surely you can also see why some of us find that more than a little distasteful?

[WhileTheChief..]

Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

My point is, why isn't it being talked about these days? Folk were talking about it like it was the most important thing in their lives - remember the huge demonstrations?

I'd have thought that if it meant so much to people they might bring it up now and again. They don't though. So it appears they only cared about it when it was the 'in' thing to do.

Now, clearly this is a bit of a sweeping statement so it's not meant directly at you or anyone else on here, but that's what i think of when I think of woke.

It's not caring about the issue, of course people should care, it's shouting from the rooftops about how much you care.

[WhileTheChief..]

Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

I definitely use it in a negative way :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

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[hibsbollah]

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I bet this **** is first to bang the nations airwaves about benefit scroungers. But he’s encouraging and facilitating tax avoidance for a clique. Should be behind bars, not waiting for the inevitable peerage and after dinner speaking circuit.

[Kato]

My point is, why isn't it being talked about these days? Folk were talking about it like it was the most important thing in their lives - remember the huge demonstrations?

I'd have thought that if it meant so much to people they might bring it up now and again. They don't though. So it appears they only cared about it when it was the 'in' thing to do.

Now, clearly this is a bit of a sweeping statement so it's not meant directly at you or anyone else on here, but that's what i think of when I think of woke.

It's not caring about the issue, of course people should care, it's shouting from the rooftops about how much you care.


Not understanding your point here. It's perfectly natural that people will be more vocal in the immediate aftermath of an atrocious act. That doesn't mean they don't hold the same convictions when the fuss dies down.

You also didn't address the "freedom of speech" aspect.

Why is OK for bigots to have free speech as and when they want, allowed to them in case the country turns into a version of Hong Kong, but anti-bigots are to be mistrusted as somehow insincere when expressing themselves as and when they want?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

"Woke" is this era's "PC". A pejorative to criticise people with whom your social and cultural values don't align.

Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Just because it's not in the news and people aren't posting daily updates on their ongoing feelings about George Floyd doesn't mean they don't now think that racism is bad.

You are taking their words and making up your mind as to what their motives are and what they are thinking, which is a tricky thing to do on the internet. Of course people are going post about what's in the news currently, that is why it's called "news".

Are people not entitled to say what they want when they want? If we stopped that we'd might as well be living in Hong Kong etc etc.

Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.

[CropleyWasGod]

Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

Thanks for proving my point.😋

[Hiber-nation]

Those who adhere to the cult of 'woke' do not allow anyone who's values don't align with their beliefs to even speak! Having people cancelled, fired, publicly shamed and prosecuted because they don't agree with you isn't very tolerant is it? PC and wokness are about forcing people to agree with things that are contrary to the truth. Failure to comply results in the aforementioned consequences. Why would anyone want to be part of that, unless they like controlling people?

You've been here before haven't you? Lost count now.

[hibsbollah]

Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.

My boy is doing Shakespeare for his Nat 4s. Romeo and Juliet. Same as i did at school at 14 in the 80s.

The Stones decided THEMSELVES to not do Brown Sugar ‘for awhile’ but will bring it back at some point. Even though it’s about raping female slaves you own.

So two blatant falsehoods already. These things haven’t been ‘cancelled’
In terms of ACTUAL political correctness that actually happens, the most prominent example is anyone appearing on the BBC two weeks before Remembrance Sunday being plastered in Haig poppies or they don’t appear. And anyone who encourages debate about their feelings about this particular festival gets the pitchfork and ducking stool treatment from the Mail and the Sun and gets actually cancelled.

There’s a kerfuffle going on at the moment around Yorkshire cricket and a player calling a teammate ‘pki’ repeatedly for years. What’s notable isn’t that it has become a story, but that YCC got away with dismissing the player’s formal complaints after a full investigation, on the rationale that it was ‘only banter’. They were brought to book kicking and screaming. It doesn’t feel like a world where we’re hyper sensitive about causing offence to me, it’s going in exactly the opposite direction. I don’t think you’ve got much to worry about.

[degenerated]

I bet this **** is first to bang the nations airwaves about benefit scroungers. But he’s encouraging and facilitating tax avoidance for a clique. Should be behind bars, not waiting for the inevitable peerage and after dinner speaking circuit.Owen Patterson may end up on the after dinner speakers circuit but you can bet your bottom dollar he ends up in the house of lords first.

[cabbageandribs1875]

You've been here before haven't you? Lost count now.



long term browser :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

the king corrupt one hasn't knocked back the idea of a peerage for paterson


imagine when Johnson is finally on his way out, he will load the House of gravy train with Tories :agree: won't be too long before there's more in the house of gravy than there is in the Chinese Assembly

[Kato]

Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy ....

Yes of course.


...for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say.

As Dave Chappelle would say that is mostly on twitter, which is a place that doesn't actually exist.

You can be anti-bigotry without being part of a "mob" or imaginary mindset/"cult".

I'm working-class from Niddrie and my Mum taught me about bigot's, why bigotry is wrong and how to go about expressing any thoughts against it. We were brought up heathen with no religion to speak of but she was sickened at how her Catholic and Italian pals were treated. If you want to get rid of discussions on racism/sexism/misogyny and concentrate on human rights a good place to start would be getting rid of bigotry. Then we've got a clean slate.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Except for a lot of people, it’s not pejorative. Id much rather be woke than asleep.

If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

[Pretty Boy]

It's entirely possible to feel strongly about something whilst not discussing it all the time. On occasion there is an opportunity presented to make a point and it stands to reason that when the conversation is being had on a wider scale then you will make your voice heard.

Personally speaking I have always felt strongly about the pathetic conviction rates for sexual crimes up to and including rape. Further the treatment of and language around women who genuinelt believe themselves to have been victims of crime even when an acquittal is the outcome is something that concerns me. That is shaped by personal experiences in my own life. In recent years the cases involving people like Ched Evans, Alex Salmond and more recently tragically Sarah Everard have seen me be very vocal and visible with my viewpoint. I'll happily admit to shouting down people who use lazy tropes that are all too common when discussing these situations. Just because I am more vocal at these times doesn't mean I stop caring the rest of the time. I'm sure many people on this thread could give comparable examples.

The point above about being working class and from a scheme is a good one. I was brought up in Oxgangs in a working class fanilt. I learned from a young age that being racist, sexist, homophobic and so on was wrong. It's really no excuse and I'm not sure it's an excuse many people from such backgrounds make for themselves either.

[Pretty Boy]

If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

There are more than 2 genders though. That's been accepted in various cultures for centuries, perhaps even millenia.

Unless you are conflating gender and biological sex?

[Bostonhibby]

Yes of course.



As Dave Chappelle would say that is mostly on twitter, which is a place that doesn't actually exist.

You can be anti-bigotry without being part of a "mob" or imaginary mindset/"cult".

I'm working-class from Niddrie and and my Mum taught me about bigot's, why bigotry is wrong and how to go about expressing any thoughts against it. We were brought up heathen with no religion to speak of but she was sickened at how her Catholic and Italian pals were treated. If you want to get rid of discussions on racism/sexism/misogyny and concentrate on human rights a good place to start would be getting rid of bigotry. Then we've got a clean slate.Top post[emoji106]This atheist from Magdalene agrees[emoji6]

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[FromLeithtoNZ]

Thanks for proving my point.😋

In what way have I proved your point?

[hibsbollah]

If being woke means recognizing that racism exists(and has done for all of human history), agreeing that it's wrong(it's simply not in any way, shape or form fair) and choosing not to be racist(realising that we all need to be better), then I'm all for it. Effectively, this just means being a decent person. It's great to think that there will be a future where the colour of a persons skin, their ethnic backround or their country of origin won't determine how they are treated. Who would be against that?

However, when Dave Chappelle can't do his show, the Rolling Stones can't play "Brown Sugar" and I am forced to believe there are more than 2 genders (denying a fundamental fact about humanity), I'm note sure the woke world is a happy place to be. The woke don't allow anyone to disagree. There is no room for discussion. Every day, someone else if publicly shamed and/or cancelled. It's the modern day version of the Salem witch trials. It becomes more absurd by the day and I genuinely think it has all the hallmarks of a cult.

Is this just the same post you’ve made a few hours ago? I’ve pointed out you’re wrong about Brown Sugar already. Assuming this isn’t just a bot account why don’t you try and engage with that points I and others have made?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

There are more than 2 genders though. That's been accepted in various cultures for centuries, perhaps even millenia.

Unless you are conflating gender and biological sex?

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

[hibsbollah]

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

I had to read Das Kapital a few times at uni. I can honestly say Marx had nothing to say whatsoever about ‘gender neutrality’. Lots of Marxists are very misogynistic and are as likely to have old fashioned ideas about sex and gender as right wingers, who are probably just as likely to be queer/trans/whatever as anyone else.

Maybe you’re confusing Marx with Mark from Trainspotting ‘One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just ******s. Sounds great to me.’

[lapsedhibee]

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

What century are you posting from, if you don't mind me asking? :dunno:

[Jack]

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

You could start by looking up hermaphrodite.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

It will be interesting to see what happens in England going forward and I do think it might be doing a fair few of them a disservice by saying that "the English can see no wrong and vote them in".

The last few elections have been a bit unusual and fought on different territory than usual. As they've gone down the nationalist rabbit hole they've ended up caring a lot more about issues like Brexit and have ultimately been prepared to turn a blind eye to a few undesirable traits to get what they want.

The opposition also have to take a bit of responsibility for not making a strong enough case for someone else and something else.

We'll see where they go in future. I loathe this bunch of utterly incompetent and corrupt charlatans as much as the next person but as Brexit disappears into the rear view mirror a bit, Scotland grapples with its own constitutional issues (with knock on effects for the Labour Party throughout the UK) then it will be very interesting to see who and what England will want in future, and why.

Is there anyone worth voting for? I'm suggesting people should abstain from voting, but the current options are unappealing to say the least. I'm not sure how others feel, but I don't think I've ever been more disillusioned with politics.

[Kato]

Seems to me like there exists a spectrum of genders, like the flag you see on Pride marches it shows a spectrum because that's where our genders lie. Two shades of that spectrum seem to be the most populated but there are other shades. If you learn to see that exists and respect that then taking up extreme views isn't necessary, whatever side of the debate they come from.

[Kato]

It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.


Was that not Brexit?

[FromLeithtoNZ]

I had to read Das Kapital a few times at uni. I can honestly say Marx had nothing to say whatsoever about ‘gender neutrality’. Lots of Marxists are very misogynistic and are as likely to have old fashioned ideas about sex and gender as right wingers, who are probably just as likely to be queer/trans/whatever as anyone else.

Maybe you’re confusing Marx with Mark from Trainspotting ‘One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just ******s. Sounds great to me.’

Whilst Marx may not have necessarily promoted the idea, Marxists(those who took his ideas and ran with them) added 'gender neutrality' this to their list of 'must haves' for a truly equal society. Think of the poster with a women showing her bicep. How much further are we going to go with this idea? How many letters do add to LBGTQ? I can't say I've read Das Kapital. Feel free to call me out for criticising Marx when I haven't read his key piece of work. I'll take that on the chin. I can tell you that I have as much desire to read Das Kapital as I have to read Mein Kampf. The authors of both books and their ideas created misery, pain, imprisonment, suffering and death to millions. Two utterly poisonous regimes. The ideals behind both ideologies need to be consigned to history. That doesn't mean we forget about them. Doing so would only risk a repeat. They should be held up as examples of what not to do.

[Pretty Boy]

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

Yes there are.

In Western thinking the idea of biological sex and gender being different constructs is a relatively recent discussion, certainly in mainstream thinking it found prominence among feminists in the 1970s.

There has been recognition of a 3rd (and 4th and 5th...)gender in various cultures for centuries as I have already stated. Polynesia, the Indian sub continent and South America being the most notable.

As for the difference between sex and gender the distinction of one being biological whilst the other is a social construct is not something I can attribute to Marx although I'm not that well read when it comes to old Karl so I may have missed it. I don't accept it's that difficult to see why multiple genders are possible even if we are accepting of the fact there are only 2 sexes (or 3 when you consider the 1.5% of people who are biologically intersex).

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d4c04c72-3e70-11ec-9bef-aa3112940013?shareToken=14d91ed5c78d2d531bd95d03b1 f03c48

Border Force seem to be falling out with Priti Patel. Apparently they are not keen on letting people drown at sea.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/e6deddd5fd65bd3a23ad58348f2694de.jpg


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[hibsbollah]

Whilst Marx may not have necessarily promoted the idea, Marxists(those who took his ideas and ran with them) added 'gender neutrality' this to their list of 'must haves' for a truly equal society. Think of the poster with a women showing her bicep. How much further are we going to go with this idea? How many letters do add to LBGTQ? I can't say I've read Das Kapital. Feel free to call me out for criticising Marx when I haven't read his key piece of work. I'll take that on the chin. I can tell you that I have as much desire to read Das Kapital as I have to read Mein Kampf. The authors of both books and their ideas created misery, pain, imprisonment, suffering and death to millions. Two utterly poisonous regimes. The ideals behind both ideologies need to be consigned to history. That doesn't mean we forget about them. Doing so would only risk a repeat. They should be held up as examples of what not to do.

That’s absolutely up to you what books to read, obviously. I just think you’re very uninformed about what ‘Marxists’ believe, and if you want to understand it’s probably a good idea to read about it. I read Mein Kampf and managed to avoid believing in the moral righteousness of a liebensraum for the German race so it IS possible to read a book without being won over by its ideas :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

You could start by looking up hermaphrodite.

That's going to open a can of worms 😉

[hibsbollah]

That's going to open a can of worms 😉

:faf: :faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

Are there? Please elaborate. How many genders are there? How does does gender differ from biological sex? Lots of things have existed for millennia which are perverse; human sacrifice, polygamy, owning slaves to name just a few. The theory that there are more than 2 genders is not based in fact or reality. It is a political idea. Marxists decided that everyone has to be regarded is an equal in every way. They therefore created the idea the idea of gender neutrality. The woke claim gender is socially constructed. It's quite the opposite, gender roles are based on the typical traits and particular strengths which men and women have innately. That is to say, natural human behaviours which are not taught. The marxist invention of gender neutrality has been constructed to match their ideology. Everything must be altered to fit the marxist view. Of course, disagreeing is unacceptable. I honestly cannot believe how many of you have fallen for this. What happen to critical thinking? Just look at the world around you rather than blindly following a political idea. As a teenager growing up in Leith in the late 80's/ early 90s, I could never have imagined people thinking like this. That's not to say change didn't need to happen. It absolutely did. We all said things in those days we'd now be ashamed of. But seriously, it's gone too far. It's a cultural revolution and it is going to end in misery.

Stop reading out of date books.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

[Moulin Yarns]

:faf: :faf:

Thank you. 👍

[Bostonhibby]

That's going to open a can of worms [emoji6]I preferred when we were just looking to see if the Nasty party were still lying ********.

I've checked, they are.

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[hibsbollah]

Whilst Marx may not have necessarily promoted the idea, Marxists(those who took his ideas and ran with them) added 'gender neutrality' this to their list of 'must haves' for a truly equal society. Think of the poster with a women showing her bicep. How much further are we going to go with this idea? How many letters do add to LBGTQ? I can't say I've read Das Kapital. Feel free to call me out for criticising Marx when I haven't read his key piece of work. I'll take that on the chin. I can tell you that I have as much desire to read Das Kapital as I have to read Mein Kampf. The authors of both books and their ideas created misery, pain, imprisonment, suffering and death to millions. Two utterly poisonous regimes. The ideals behind both ideologies need to be consigned to history. That doesn't mean we forget about them. Doing so would only risk a repeat. They should be held up as examples of what not to do.

Also, Rosie the Riveter was the poster you’re referring to, it was from WW2 a campaign by the Americans to encourage women to do the jobs that men couldn’t do because they were busy fighting the Nazis. All it’s doing is showing a physically strongwoman, gender doesn’t come into it.

You’re now confusing the wartime US Government with Marxism. Not really sure where we’re going from here…

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Yes there are.

In Western thinking the idea of biological sex and gender being different constructs is a relatively recent discussion, certainly in mainstream thinking it found prominence among feminists in the 1970s.

There has been recognition of a 3rd (and 4th and 5th...)gender in various cultures for centuries as I have already stated. Polynesia, the Indian sub continent and South America being the most notable.

As for the difference between sex and gender the distinction of one being biological whilst the other is a social construct is not something I can attribute to Marx although I'm not that well read when it comes to old Karl so I may have missed it. I don't accept it's that difficult to see why multiple genders are possible even if we are accepting of the fact there are only 2 sexes (or 3 when you consider the 1.5% of people who are biologically intersex).

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

That’s absolutely up to you what books to read, obviously. I just think you’re very uninformed about what ‘Marxists’ believe, and if you want to understand it’s probably a good idea to read about it. I read Mein Kampf and managed to avoid believing in the moral righteousness of a liebensraum for the German race so it IS possible to read a book without being won over by its ideas :greengrin

Fair point. I can only imagine the contents of Mein Kampf are horrifying. Like reading the memoirs of a psychopath. You're obviously well read. I take my hat of to you for that. Your point is similar to what Aristotle said about being able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Morally, the idea of racial superiority is repugnant. Perhaps reading the chief proponent of that idea, gives an insight in to a mind that accepts the idea as not only being true, but morally justifiable. I am new here and I don't want to antagonise or get off side with anyone. After all, it's a football forum. I do enjoy debate though and I won't demand that anyone accept my point-of-view over their own. There are too many people doing that, and I strongly object to being forced to believe anything, particularly when not backed up by fact. If I'm guilty of that, please point it out. I will however hold to my beliefs unless I am convinced otherwise. I am absolutely open to being convinced otherwise if a better argument is presented.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Was that not Brexit?

Who knows? Remains to be seen. Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a little Englander or Scotlander. Yes, there are many who are flag waving nationalists and many who have unpleasant views, no question. Surely though you can understand that there are plenty who voted for it for rational reasons. There were arguments for both remaining and leaving. I was personally torn. It's happened now. People have to work together rather than pointing the figure. We need unity not division.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

What century are you posting from, if you don't mind me asking? :dunno:

Fundamental truths are perennial. Inventing the idea that there are more than 2 genders does not make that idea true. The fact we are even having this conversation these days is mind boggling. The fact that most of you are going along with it is terrifying. What other new 'truths' will we be forced to believe in the coming years. God help us all.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/f2d256eedcd339573d1efd0489d538ad.jpg

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/want-a-seat-in-the-house-of-lords-be-tory-treasurer-and-donate-3m/

£3m for a chance to make laws in UK. And people think we are a democracy?[emoji23]


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[Kato]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.Where are the human rights in taking things in the direction of forced treatment?

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[Kato]

Fair point. I can only imagine the contents of Mein Kampf are horrifying. Like reading the memoirs of a psychopath. You're obviously well read. I take my hat of to you for that. Your point is similar to what Aristotle said about being able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Morally, the idea of racial superiority is repugnant. Perhaps reading the chief proponent of that idea, gives an insight in to a mind that accepts the idea as not only being true, but morally justifiable. I am new here and I don't want to antagonise or get off side with anyone. After all, it's a football forum. I do enjoy debate though and I won't demand that anyone accept my point-of-view over their own. There are too many people doing that, and I strongly object to being forced to believe anything, particularly when not backed up by fact. If I'm guilty of that, please point it out. I will however hold to my beliefs unless I am convinced otherwise. I am absolutely open to being convinced otherwise if a better argument is presented.Mein Kempf is just Adolph snowflaking on about the Treaty of Versailles and whipping up misplaced grudges against peoples he took a personal dislike to. These days it would be lost in vast tonnage of Facebook slurry of a similar ilk.

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[Kato]

Surely though you can understand that there are plenty who voted for it for rational reasons.

Sorry but I was completely unaware.



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[Glory Lurker]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/f2d256eedcd339573d1efd0489d538ad.jpg

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/want-a-seat-in-the-house-of-lords-be-tory-treasurer-and-donate-3m/

£3m for a chance to make laws in UK. And people think we are a democracy?[emoji23]


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If only Labour had delivered their promise to abolish it before they were seduced by the trough. And bowing to people with metal hats.

[One Day Soon]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

I think feminists of the second and third waves would mostly take great offence to the suggestion that their radicalism and their ideology is in some way derivative from either Marxism as a doctrine or from Marx, a man.

Feminists at every iteration seem perfectly capable of assessing the challenges faced by women by dint of their own experiences, their own political and social responses to their circumstances and with a fairly comprehensive set of left through to right wing political persuasions sitting behind that feminism. Dragging Marxism into this is an unlikely and I think unsustainable position.

[FromLeithtoNZ]

Where are the human rights in taking things in the direction of forced treatment?

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No treatment should ever be forced on anyone against their will. Treatment for any issue should only ever be voluntary.

[CropleyWasGod]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

Your last paragraph could have been written about gay men in the 70s. Using language like "childhood trauma " , "treatment " "delusion" and " healthier thinking " smacks of the horrors of conversion therapy.

[danhibees1875]

Your last paragraph could have been written about gay men in the 70s. Using language like "childhood trauma " , "treatment " "delusion" and " healthier thinking " smacks of the horrors of conversion therapy.

I tend to stay away from these conversations as I'll admit my knowledge on gender/sex is limited, but that last paragraph is a shocker.

It's entirely compassion free and doesn't have any place in the 21st century.

[Bristolhibby]

No treatment should ever be forced on anyone against their will. Treatment for any issue should only ever be voluntary.

Sectioning someone?

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Your last paragraph could have been written about gay men in the 70s. Using language like "childhood trauma " , "treatment " "delusion" and " healthier thinking " smacks of the horrors of conversion therapy.

Aye, the real name of the poster is Marty McFly.

[Keith_M]

Yes, we should be entitled to say what we want, absolutely. Wokeness however actively stops people from expressing any opinion which doesn't agree with their view of the world. That's the problem. You don't have the option of disagreeing with the well trained woke disciple. There is no room for diversity of opinion or healthy discussion in the world they are creating for us. The people of Hong Kong are under the thumb of people who have been practicing wokeness(i.e. communism) for a very long time. No matter how absurd the woke idea is, if you don't agree with it, you are shamed, cancelled, fired from you job or even prosecuted. The woke love to call people fascists. They are closest we have come to fascism since the second world war. Surely we can all agree that healthy debate and the exchange of ideas is far more healthy for society that a mob telling everyone what their allowed to say. Ask Dave Chappelle what he thinks. No more Shakespeare in schools. The Rolling Stones not 'allowed' to play Brown Sugar anymore. The list goes on and on and on.


Now, I occasionally object to newspaper articles that portray (what I feel) are a very warped sense of what is and is not acceptable, but that just comes over as a reactionary rant and is full of innacuracies, e.g. Shakespeare and Brown Sugar

.

[Moulin Yarns]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

On the last paragraph, what type of treatment do you advocate for someone who is transgender ( not intersex)? Is it possibly the same treatment that you would advocate for gay men or women? Are you saying that they are not thinking healthy? What is healthy thinking?

[neil7908]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

RE the last paragraph - where did complete your psychology and/or medical degree? I'm curious as what you are saying goes completely against current thinking from trained professionals.

Gender dysphoria is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association to diagnose mental conditions.

Rather than a terrifying fear of "wokeness", my biggest issue with our current age is that every Tom, Dick and Harry on the internet has decided, without any actual investigation, that they know more than the collective knowledge of tens of thousands of professionals who have spent their lives dedicated to a particular subject.

Michael Gove said it best "we've had enough of experts". Sadly that is true. The average punter now thinks they know more than scientists about climate change, medical professionals about gender, and racism than those experiencing it.

And that worries the hell out of me more than a few on Twitter getting a annoyed.

[Jack]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.

Why waste time with a long term goal? Just send them straight to the death camps.

Your posts are vile.

[WhileTheChief..]

Your last paragraph could have been written about gay men in the 70s. Using language like "childhood trauma " , "treatment " "delusion" and " healthier thinking " smacks of the horrors of conversion therapy.


I think you guys have all taken his point the wrong way.

Think for a moment of some mental health illnesses, and our thoughts on them in the past.

I’ll maybe be a bit clumsy with my language here but I’ll try and explain.

If you hand a relative that was going a bit senile, or ‘mad’ , that kept telling you all that he wanted to live in a wardrobe because of the fairies that come for him in the night, we wouldn’t go straight to “ok Uncle Bob, no problem, here’s a pillow and duvet for you to get comfy”.

We would look to get him some help.

I think the poster is trying to suggest, is that if someone feels trapped in the body of someone of the opposite sex, that’s a mental issue, and maybe they need help in a similar way?

The thought that teenagers or younger still can decide on their gender just doesn’t seem right.

I don’t think his post in any way can be compared to conversion therapy.

[Kato]

I think the poster is trying to suggest, is that if someone feels trapped in the body of someone of the opposite sex, that’s a mental issue, and maybe they need help in a similar way?


Is this what you believe?

[lapsedhibee]

Fundamental truths are perennial. Inventing the idea that there are more than 2 genders does not make that idea true. The fact we are even having this conversation these days is mind boggling. The fact that most of you are going along with it is terrifying. What other new 'truths' will we be forced to believe in the coming years. God help us all.

This is you, this is:

1. "There are only two genders."

2. "There are a tiny number of people who are intersex."

3. "There are only two genders."

It must be great to have no problem whatsoever in holding completely contradictory 'facts' inside your head. It's not so great when you say them out loud, to other people.

[WhileTheChief..]

Is this what you believe?

I don’t know. I don’t know enough about the subject.

[Kato]

I don’t know. I don’t know enough about the subject.There's a whole thread on the subject not that far down with lots of information.

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[Keith_M]

I think you guys have all taken his point the wrong way.

Think for a moment of some mental health illnesses, and our thoughts on them in the past.

I’ll maybe be a bit clumsy with my language here but I’ll try and explain.

If you hand a relative that was going a bit senile, or ‘mad’ , that kept telling you all that he wanted to live in a wardrobe because of the fairies that come for him in the night, we wouldn’t go straight to “ok Uncle Bob, no problem, here’s a pillow and duvet for you to get comfy”.

We would look to get him some help.

I think the poster is trying to suggest, is that if someone feels trapped in the body of someone of the opposite sex, that’s a mental issue, and maybe they need help in a similar way?

The thought that teenagers or younger still can decide on their gender just doesn’t seem right.

I don’t think his post in any way can be compared to conversion therapy.


That's kind of what I took from it and think some of the reactions have been a bit over the top.

[SHODAN]

Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.

I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.

[Keith_M]

Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.

I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.



Yeah, TBF, it is quite a tangent from the topic of The Tories.

[Moulin Yarns]

Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.

I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.

I think that's a good opinion.

The main mental health issues that Trans people face are imposed on them. There is no cure as you say, there is also no treatment regardless of what someone suggests.

For some reason most people think that trans means wanting to transition from male to female, however you have Elliott Page, formerly Ellen Page, and a friend in kirkcaldy who changed their name from Amy to Jude a few weeks ago. These are not what people generally think.

All the talk is about men wanting to be known as women, but that's not always the case.

[Kato]

Yeah, TBF, it is quite a tangent from the topic of The Tories.

Is that not the whole point of "The Culture Wars"? If we are at odds with these discussions, which seem to be aligned to left versus right then we aren't discussing the traditional left versus right subject - Economics. I'm guilty of being sucked in just as much as anyone btw.

[lord bunberry]

The feminists of the 70's were inspired by Marxism. As I pointed out previously, the Marxists promoted the idea that men and women were equal in all ways, music to a feminists ear. An idea created invented by one of group of people to serve their cause, which later adopted to a later group of people to serve their cause. 3rd wave feminism is marxism.

People in the parts the world you mention, may well have had odd beliefs at various points in history. That those societies may have believed in the idea of multiple genders, doesn't mean that there is any truth behind. South American societies believed that human sacrifice appeased the gods. Does that mean we should revive the practice because it was done in the past? Of course it doesn't? Believing something is true doesn't make it true. I could believe I'm giraffe but you're and not obliged to agree with me. It's absurd.

There are a tiny number of people who are intersex. This is a fact, therefore I won't deny it. Men who are biologically men, but think they are women have a psychological problem. There is no genetic or hormonal reason for their belief. It can only be psychological. That being the case, we should be compassionate toward them. They may have experienced childhood trauma. They should be given treatment with a view to helping them live a healthy normal life. Agreeing that a man is a woman is not helping that person. If you do agree, you are complicit in helping remain in a state of delusion. Of course, it may be necessary to agree with them initially, before staring treatment so as not to push the poor person away. However, like a drug addict, the long term goal should be to quietly and sensitively move them toward healthier thinking. That is the truly compassionate thing to do. They are crying out for help, so lets help them.
Who let the 1970s in?

[Keith_M]

Soooooo....


....the Tories, questionable parentage or not?

[One Day Soon]

Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.

I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.


Your quite right, off to the other thread it should go.

[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211107/1eb80d7643c3d0388016f47487b31a15.png


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[lapsedhibee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211107/1eb80d7643c3d0388016f47487b31a15.png


A good enough joke, but shouldn't Lammy also be calling for jail time for the miscreants?

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/jonashworth/status/1457389355056738306?s=21


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[Bostonhibby]

Some of the faux-compassionate "opinions" on this thread regarding trans people make me genuinely sad, particularly the suggestion that it is a mental disorder that needs to be cured (i.e. just like the attitudes to gay people historically); my trans friends have to put up with this on a day-to-day basis from all angles and I can't imagine what it must be like for them.

I've had to put a number of people on ignore already; I would kindly request that this discussion be moved to that to the thread we already have for it so I don't have to see this again.Nail, hammer heid [emoji106]

There's a place for the main protagonist here.......

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[Bostonhibby]

Soooooo....


....the Tories, questionable parentage or not?I've had a quick check today and can confirm they're still nasty ********

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[cabbageandribs1875]

Tories are to blame for absolutely everything that's wrong in the world today but not even i can blame them for the last three pages on this thread :confused:


but anyway

St Albans beat Forest Green in the FA cup earlier tonight

[Keith_M]

I've had a quick check today and can confirm they're still nasty ********





Thanks, at least we've cleared that up

:greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Tories are to blame for absolutely everything that's wrong in the world today but not even i can blame them for the last three pages on this thread :confused:


but anyway

St Albans beat Forest Green in the FA cup earlier tonight

Vegans losing is a bad omen for what COP26 will deliver.

[Stairway 2 7]

@JohnRentoul
Labour lead in @IpsosMORI poll for Standard
Lab 36% nc
Con 35% -4
Green 11% +5
Lib Dem 9% nc
https://standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-loses-poll-lead-ipsos-mori-sleaze-scandal-b964945.html

[Lendo]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/07/mps-could-be-barred-from-consultancy-roles-in-sleaze-clampdown

Commons Standards Committee considering a ban on MP holding a second job as advisers or consultants. Seems like a great move. I imagine there’s a lot of MP very worried about their bottom line right now.

[Kato]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/07/mps-could-be-barred-from-consultancy-roles-in-sleaze-clampdown

Commons Standards Committee considering a ban on MP holding a second job as advisers or consultants. Seems like a great move. I imagine there’s a lot of MP very worried about their bottom line right now.


Cue mass exodus of Tory people wanting to be MP's.

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[Ozyhibby]

Cue mass exodus of Tory people wanting to be MP's.

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A good thing for everyone.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/08/boris-johnson-no-10-flat-renovation-watchdog?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1636379859

Nothing to see here. This is why they tried so hard to undermine the system last week.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211108/3ec84f38f13760f10b4bf88377e3da39.jpg


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[stokesmessiah]

I just watched the clip on the BBC website where Bojo was getting questioned about it whilst visiting a hospital. His opening gambit is to talk about the great personal loss suffered by Paterson. They really are a horrendous shower.

[lapsedhibee]

I just watched the clip on the BBC website where Bojo was getting questioned about it whilst visiting a hospital. His opening gambit is to talk about the great personal loss suffered by Paterson. They really are a horrendous shower.

He didn't get things entirely his way with Lord Paterson but, still determined to show that rules don't apply to him, he wanders about a hospital maskless. Posh boy ****wit, as Dorries would say.

[stokesmessiah]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211108/3ec84f38f13760f10b4bf88377e3da39.jpg


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Strange as they were so interested in it last week!!!?

[cabbageandribs1875]

He didn't get things entirely his way with Lord Paterson but, still determined to show that rules don't apply to him, he wanders about a hospital maskless. Posh boy ****wit, as Dorries would say.



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/254934117_10226798665373450_2567528332696861321_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=PExpus0xwAgAX_1ANkU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c9bea99d44ff0a76fb26458dab437ab1&oe=618EB1FD


however, a hospital spokesperson sought to reassure the public he was following the rules

[Kato]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/254934117_10226798665373450_2567528332696861321_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=PExpus0xwAgAX_1ANkU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c9bea99d44ff0a76fb26458dab437ab1&oe=618EB1FD


however, a hospital spokesperson sought to reassure the public he was following the rulesMask? He should be huckled for that shirt.

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[Pretty Boy]

Mask? He should be huckled for that shirt.

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His slovenly appearance just shows a total disrespect for the position he holds.

I don't for a minute believe he actually does respect the role he has, it seems like he sees it as a birthright of sorts, but a bit of a pretence wouldn't go amiss. It's so obviously contrived as well, both he and his advisors know the lovable rogue/Worzel Gummidge look plays well with the sort of people who base their voting intention on 'a guy you could have a pint with'.

A horrible individual.

[hibsbollah]

His slovenly appearance just shows a total disrespect for the position he holds.

I don't for a minute believe he actually does respect the role he has, it seems like he sees it as a birthright of sorts, but a bit of a pretence wouldn't go amiss. It's so obviously contrived as well, both he and his advisors know the lovable rogue/Worzel Gummidge look plays well with the sort of people who base their voting intention on 'a guy you could have a pint with'.

A horrible individual.

The press went after socialists Michael Foot and Corbyn for looking like utter tramps, so I’m not going to get stuck into Bozo for him looking like he’s just fallen out of skip…it’s what he does and says that makes me viscerally despise the man. But there is definitely a double standard at work.

[gbhibby]

Mask? He should be huckled for that shirt.

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Not in the EPL for his ablities as a politician more like the conference league in terms of his ablities as a politician. Some of the stuff he comes out with he clearly has not read or does not understand his briefing.

[WhileTheChief..]

His slovenly appearance just shows a total disrespect for the position he holds.

I don't for a minute believe he actually does respect the role he has, it seems like he sees it as a birthright of sorts, but a bit of a pretence wouldn't go amiss. It's so obviously contrived as well, both he and his advisors know the lovable rogue/Worzel Gummidge look plays well with the sort of people who base their voting intention on 'a guy you could have a pint with'.

A horrible individual.

Nice view from up there looking down on us?

You think we’re so uneducated that that’s why we voted for him?

You’re talking about regular, working class folks here. The same sort of folks that form the SNP base up here I’d imagine or that Labour would love to represent again down south.

[Callum_62]

Nice view from up there looking down on us?

You think we’re so uneducated that that’s why we voted for him?

You’re talking about regular, working class folks here. The same sort of folks that form the SNP base up here I’d imagine or that Labour would love to represent again down south.Under what education did you vote for him?

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[Pretty Boy]

Nice view from up there looking down on us?

You think we’re so uneducated that that’s why we voted for him?

You’re talking about regular, working class folks here. The same sort of folks that form the SNP base up here I’d imagine or that Labour would love to represent again down south.

I'm talking about the people who say they voted for him because he's the kind of guy they would like to have a pint with. That's it.

[wookie70]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/07/mps-could-be-barred-from-consultancy-roles-in-sleaze-clampdown

Commons Standards Committee considering a ban on MP holding a second job as advisers or consultants. Seems like a great move. I imagine there’s a lot of MP very worried about their bottom line right now.




That was a Corbyn policy I think. Quite right as it is starting to get ridiculous in terms of cash for peerages and contracts given to donors

[hibsbollah]

Nice view from up there looking down on us?

You think we’re so uneducated that that’s why we voted for him?

You’re talking about regular, working class folks here. The same sort of folks that form the SNP base up here I’d imagine or that Labour would love to represent again down south.

I’m not sure what exactly you have a problem with there; voting for someone based on ‘who you want to have a pint with’ is massively misguided, don’t you agree?

[Kato]

Nice view from up there looking down on us?

You think we’re so uneducated that that’s why we voted for him?

You’re talking about regular, working class folks here. The same sort of folks that form the SNP base up here I’d imagine or that Labour would love to represent again down south.

The reasons you gave for voting Tory the other day were contrary, vague and by your own admission ill-informed, with the idea put forward that your just a working class person so why should you be a politico.

"I don't go reading every political manifesto or considering every policy before I decide who to vote for. Like a lot of people, I look to the leaders and what they are about."

You also said you "like Boris".


Fair enough. You're entitled to vote for someone if their eyes are less close together than their opponents if you want, but are you in a position to complain about appearing ignorant after posting that?

Working class people used to the sharpest tools in the political box. Using it as an excuse for not being informed is pretty sad.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

it's a pity they're now only starting to realise what Johnson and his cabal of corruptness have done to their party, it's a start though i guess

Dr brendor grosvenor - Twitter Search / Twitter (https://twitter.com/search?q=Dr%20brendor%20grosvenor&src=typeahead_click&f=live)

[Kato]

it's a pity they're now only starting to realise what Johnson and his cabal of corruptness have done to their party, it's a start though i guess

Dr brendor grosvenor - Twitter Search / Twitter (https://twitter.com/search?q=Dr%20brendor%20grosvenor&src=typeahead_click&f=live)Johnson and his cabal biggest "crime" is getting clumsy. Really good Conservative are adept at hiding their corruption.

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[Hiber-nation]

it's a pity they're now only starting to realise what Johnson and his cabal of corruptness have done to their party, it's a start though i guess

Dr brendor grosvenor - Twitter Search / Twitter (https://twitter.com/search?q=Dr%20brendor%20grosvenor&src=typeahead_click&f=live)

That was 2 years ago today!

[cabbageandribs1875]

That was 2 years ago today!


in that case it's a pity more,a LOT more haven't followed suit

[cabbageandribs1875]

Johnson and his cabal biggest "crime" is getting clumsy. Really good Conservative are adept at hiding their corruption.

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it's a pity the last tory MP to retire from the house with at least a moral compass(i think) was Ken Clarke


Leadsom and rees-mogg should own the events from last week and resign, as for the other 250+ ? that voted for corruption they will always be tainted, the 13 that voted against Johnson can at the very least hold their heads high..well at least until they start voting to punish the poor again anyway.

[lapsedhibee]

it's a pity the last tory MP to retire from the house with at least a moral compass(i think) was Ken Clarke


Leadsom and rees-mogg should own the events from last week and resign, as for the other 250+ ? that voted for corruption they will always be tainted, the 13 that voted against Johnson can at the very least hold their heads high..well at least until they start voting to punish the poor again anyway.

Absolutely hilarious that the 250 are presenting themselves as victims. :crazy:

[Pretty Boy]

it's a pity the last tory MP to retire from the house with at least a moral compass(i think) was Ken Clarke


Leadsom and rees-mogg should own the events from last week and resign, as for the other 250+ ? that voted for corruption they will always be tainted, the 13 that voted against Johnson can at the very least hold their heads high..well at least until they start voting to punish the poor again anyway.

I'm always wary of looking back with rose tinted specs but I think there is an older style conservative (small and big c) who is at best bemused and at worst alarmed by the current state of the Tory party.

Someone like John Major was vocally anti Brexit and was particularly critical of the underhand tactics used by the leave machine. Equally he has put his head above the parapet last week and unequivocally condemned his party for their attempts to subvert parliament. He seemed genuinely horrified by their behaviour. He has also written extensively in the last few days, across multiple publications, about the folly of the UK triggering Article 16. He's no saint but he seems obviously hurt looking at the current openly corrupt, arch nationalist, populist personality cult guise the Tories have adopted.

The fundamental issue is large swathes of the public still don't seem to be horrified by them. Either that or they see no realistic alternative. Neither is a good thing.

[Callum_62]

Can't say he doesnt tackle the hard questions

https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1457712157324349440?t=Itt0qfY7i2gu0K1zJapX7A&s=19

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[Kato]

Can't say he doesnt tackle the hard questions

https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1457712157324349440?t=Itt0qfY7i2gu0K1zJapX7A&s=19

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkHe's got a great PR team but he's actually one least skillful politicians around.

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[Pretty Boy]

The press went after socialists Michael Foot and Corbyn for looking like utter tramps, so I’m not going to get stuck into Bozo for him looking like he’s just fallen out of skip…it’s what he does and says that makes me viscerally despise the man. But there is definitely a double standard at work.

My issue with Johnson is the look is important.

He's openly admitted in the past he deliberately messed up his hair before TV appearances, maybe still does. It's all part of the buffoon act, his whole image is carefully crafted and the look is part of that. It's all an act. The newspaper columns, the casual jogging shots, HIGNFY, all of it was part of a bigger plan.

Corbyn and Foot may have lacked sartorial elegance but it was real. With Johnson it's a distfation tactic and part of the painting of him as a bumbling buffoon rather than a dangerous demagogue.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m not sure what exactly you have a problem with there; voting for someone based on ‘who you want to have a pint with’ is massively misguided, don’t you agree?

Of course.

I think it’s pretty demeaning to assume that’s why scores of people voted for him though.

[Smartie]

My issue with Johnson is the look is important.

He's openly admitted in the past he deliberately messed up his hair before TV appearances, maybe still does. It's all part of the buffoon act, his whole image is carefully crafted and the look is part of that. It's all an act. The newspaper columns, the casual jogging shots, HIGNFY, all of it was part of a bigger plan.

Corbyn and Foot may have lacked sartorial elegance but it was real. With Johnson it's a distfation tactic and part of the painting of him as a bumbling buffoon rather than a dangerous demagogue.

I think folk are giving him credit he doesn’t deserve in making him out to be some sort of evil genius, with the appearance part of some sort of master plan.

Everything I see suggests he’s a ****ing imbecile.

[Kato]

My issue with Johnson is the look is important.

He's openly admitted in the past he deliberately messed up his hair before TV appearances, maybe still does. It's all part of the buffoon act, his whole image is carefully crafted and the look is part of that. It's all an act. The newspaper columns, the casual jogging shots, HIGNFY, all of it was part of a bigger plan.

Corbyn and Foot may have lacked sartorial elegance but it was real. With Johnson it's a distfation tactic and part of the painting of him as a bumbling buffoon rather than a dangerous demagogue.It's his costume. The Bullingdon Club's get-up when they go around smashing restaurants and bullying bar-staff is a costume. Rees-Mogg wears another one. It's there to annoy/impress/bamboozle, and it works.

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[Kato]

Of course.

I think it’s pretty demeaning to assume that’s why scores of people voted for him though.Yeah, politics can be rough.

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[WhileTheChief..]

The reasons you gave for voting Tory the other day were contrary, vague and by your own admission ill-informed, with the idea put forward that your just a working class person so why should you be a politico.

"I don't go reading every political manifesto or considering every policy before I decide who to vote for. Like a lot of people, I look to the leaders and what they are about."

You also said you "like Boris".


Fair enough. You're entitled to vote for someone if their eyes are less close together than their opponents if you want, but are you in a position to complain about appearing ignorant after posting that?

Working class people used to the sharpest tools in the political box. Using it as an excuse for not being informed is pretty sad.

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I’m not making excuses for anything.

The point I was making was that I tend to vote for a leader I like. I don’t think that’s an uncommon position to hold. I don’t like Boris because of his hair or choice of clothing though!

Cant remember what reasons I gave for voting Conservative, it’s irrelevant to this point really.

You say I’m I’ll informed. Ok, I’ll take that. Same as millions and millions up and down the country. You and a few others on here appear to follow things really closely, fair do’s.

I don’t. I get snippets on the news on the radio in the morning, or on Newsnight or Sky news or whatever. I don’t pretend to know it all and I’m not trying to change anyone’s view on anything. I still like to have a wee say now and again though.

If it’s any consolation to you, I’m a Conservative voter living in Glasgow’s east end. The definition of a wasted vote!

[Pretty Boy]

I think folk are giving him credit he doesn’t deserve in making him out to be some sort of evil genius, with the appearance part of some sort of master plan.

Everything I see suggests he’s a ****ing imbecile.

The 1st link is long but gives some idea into the Johnson image and character being deeper than 1st glance suggests. The 2nd follows a similar theme:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/boris-johnson-minister-of-chaos/619010/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2019/12/boris-johnson-brexit.html

'Boris' was something of a fictional character. At some point the lines between reality and fiction became blurred and have now almost disappeared entirely.

[Kato]

The point I was making was that I tend to vote for a leader I like. I don’t think that’s an uncommon position to hold. I don’t like Boris because of his hair or choice of clothing though!

Cant remember what reasons I gave for voting Conservative, it’s irrelevant to this point really.

You say I’m I’ll informed. Ok, I’ll take that. Same as millions and millions up and down the country.

If you take voting for him because "he seems like a good bloke to have a pint with" as a broad euphemism for voting for him because "he's the leader I like". It's not really too much of difference. It's a daft-ish reason to vote for any leader, not many people "liked" Thatcher for instance, Churchill was reviled by many before WW2, but its hardly the worst insult.

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[WhileTheChief..]

If you take voting for him because "he seems like a good bloke to have a pint with" as a broad euphemism for voting for him because "he's the leader I like". It's not really too much of difference. It's a daft-ish reason to vote for any leader, not many people "liked" Thatcher for instance, Churchill was reviled by many before WW2, but its hardly the worst insult.

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Tony Blair? Worked for him a treat.

Why you so bothered about why I vote a certain way? I’ve given a couple of lines and you seem intent on just putting me down. Fine. Can we just leave it at that? I’m not about to write paragraphs only for you to tear it to shreds and say I’m wrong.

[WhileTheChief..]

There’s probably some folk that vote SNP because they like Nicola Sturgeon. Is that daft too?

[Kato]

Tony Blair? Worked for him a treat.

Why you so bothered about why I vote a certain way? I’ve given a couple of lines and you seem intent on just putting me down. Fine. Can we just leave it at that? I’m not about to write paragraphs only for you to tear it to shreds and say I’m wrong.Not so bothered about your vote and not having a go.

There were claims a few days ago that this thread was all insults towards Torys and Tory voters. Someone points out that some people voted for that party for trite reasons and you took umbrage when, apparently, you voted for that party for trite reasons.

Just a bit surprised that it's worth complaining about.

Your vote maybe didn't matter but thousands of votes based on trite reasons did.

One theme of this thread is that despite being liars many Tory politicians were voted in with thousands of votes given for reasons that were trite, or contrary, or for things that weren't really on the table.

I don't like any politicians btw, admire a few, none of whom play that game any more, and that's it. If they do a good job for the whole country then that's the least to be expected. This century has been a sh*t show on that front and its getting sh*ttier.



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[Hibrandenburg]

Of course.

I think it’s pretty demeaning to assume that’s why scores of people voted for him though.

PB was being kind. IMO vast swathes of people this time round voted tory just to piss off liberals, the same as with Brexit. Voting for self harm out of spite goes way beyond stupid.

[hibsbollah]

Details of some of the MPs financial arrangements; Andrew Mitchell receiving £180,000 per year from 6 businesses on top of his £80k mp salary, another MP Julian Smith receives £144,000 from 3 businesses. Will these MPs ever vote for what would be in effect, slashing their salaries by more than half, especially when some know they have little chance of promotion into the cabinet? I really hope this continues to be in the spotlight, it won’t be limited to Tory MPs either….

[Keith_M]

If it’s any consolation to you, I’m a Conservative voter living in Glasgow’s east end. The definition of a wasted vote!


You sound like the kind of fellow I could go for a pint with.

I'll see you at Loudens on Saturday.