Jambos Legal Challenge

[Billy Whizz]

So did Vladimir Romanov and that ended well.

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No he didn’t, he used other people’s money, chancer

[Caversham Green]

Will Hearts have to present exactly what they are seeking from the action? I assume they can’t say ‘we are suing for reconstruction, if not we’ll settle for null and void but there again we’ll take reinstatement if it’s available.

Yes I think they would. If they went for an interdict that would suggest they were looking for reinstatement into the Premiership. I think they'd be more likely to succeed if they just went for compensation.

[Hibs4185]

Just had a look at twitter and it seems that hearts supporting media are adamant that they are going all out to stop the season starting.

With all the threats being made by hearts and their supporters can the SPFL and SFA not threaten expulsion for taking the governing body to court and not CAS?

About time somebody stood up to them and let football and society get back to some sort of normality.

[Billy Whizz]

And Cowdenbeath.

I wonder if Donald Findlay is getting suited and booted for this fight - he'll already be fully briefed and there's no conflict of interest in representing the SPFL. He might even do it pro-bono for a few loan players from clubs other than Hearts.

Be lovely if he had to question English and Levein😄

[Skol]

The thing is an out of court settlement could have been pre-empted if the spfl acknowledged this was unusual and some form of enhanced parachute was offered.

Actually assessing what the loss in revenue and impact is impossible at present. Hearts estimates are based on 20/21 season being just like any other which if clearly isn’t.

[jacomo]

Let's face it, the Sevco "no sporting advantage" ruling indicates that anything can happen.


This is true and a potential risk. But Hearts are now going to find themselves fighting against the interests of the entire top flight. I don’t think this is going to go well for them.

[Caversham Green]

Just had a look at twitter and it seems that hearts supporting media are adamant that they are going all out to stop the season starting.

With all the threats being made by hearts and their supporters can the SPFL and SFA not threaten expulsion for taking the governing body to court and not CAS?

About time somebody stood up to them and let football and society get back to some sort of normality.

If they go straight to a court of law before the CAS they're breaking the SFA's rules so they would be open to sanctions including suspension or expulsion. I think it would also weaken their case in court since they hadn't followed all the procedures available to them. Maybe Slope can enlighten us on that one.

[Bostonhibby]

No he didn’t, he used other people’s money, chancerHe owed to himself, like the team he owned, fleeced, laundered money through then dumped before fleeing with a suitcase full of idiots sharemoney[emoji16]

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[Irish_Steve]

Hi Slope, what was the office view on that time Paul Hanlon equalised in injury time and Hibs went on to win the Scottish Cup?

I think he has Slope-d off. Be good when he signs up to HSL tho

[Aldo]

If they go straight to a court of law before the CAS they're breaking the SFA's rules so they would be open to sanctions including suspension or expulsion. I think it would also weaken their case in court since they hadn't followed all the procedures available to them. Maybe Slope can enlighten us on that one.

Looks like they might be CG. If this is indeed the case I would expect the SFA to do their duty and impose the relevant sanction/punishment. Regardless of the outcome of any court case they’ve broken the rules by taking the SPFL to court.

I wonder if the SFA will take action? You would think Budge and co will know this?? Surely?


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[Caversham Green]

Looks like they might be CG. If this is indeed the case I would expect the SFA to do their duty and impose the relevant sanction/punishment. Regardless of the outcome of any court case they’ve broken the rules by taking the SPFL to court.

I wonder if the SFA will take action? You would think Budge and co will know this?? Surely?


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The SFA should certainly be fighting back. Apart from anything else I would have thought the CAS would be more competent to deal with this since it is essentially a sporting dispute - did Hearts deserve to be relegated or not. I think their problem is that they would almost certain to lose the case at the CAS so they're looking for a corporate misdemeanour.

[Smartie]

Or if you've murdered an innocent teenager purely because he walked past you wearing a Celtc scarf.

I heard he's the 'go to guy' for murderous bigots.

Does he not have a good record in cases the other way round though, ie murdered for wearing a Rangers scarf?

I remember raising an eyebrow in the past at cases he was involved in thinking "he won't be enjoying that much". Sorry I can't cite an example off the top of my head.

Professionals get on with doing their job.

[Slope]

I think he has Slope-d off. Be good when he signs up to HSL tho

a) I am still here
b) I am signed up to HSL
c) What makes you think I am a ‘he’?
d) Please try to stop making assumptions about me. By all means take issue with any point I’ve made but do try to cut out the ad hominem attacks. It’s tiresome and largely why I usually resist the temptation to post.

[Aldo]

The SFA should certainly be fighting back. Apart from anything else I would have thought the CAS would be more competent to deal with this since it is essentially a sporting dispute - did Hearts deserve to be relegated or not. I think their problem is that they would almost certain to lose the case at the CAS so they're looking for a corporate misdemeanour.

Let’s hope they do as rules are clear. PTFC will also be in bother and will suffer the similar fate as Budge and co.

I think Budge and Co are about to find out that suing the SPFL may come back to haunt them.

Trying to stop the start of the season (if that’s what they are indeed trying to do) will hamper those in Europe and you can guarantee there will be pressure put on the SFA by Lawwell and others to ensure they are punished


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[Irish_Steve]

a) I am still here
b) I am signed up to HSL
c) What makes you think I am a ‘he’?
d) Please try to stop making assumptions about me. By all means take issue with any point I’ve made but do try to cut out the ad hominem attacks. It’s tiresome and largely why I usually resist the temptation to post.

Don`t forget to personally reply to all the others!

[Brightside]

a) I am still here
b) I am signed up to HSL
c) What makes you think I am a ‘he’?
d) Please try to stop making assumptions about me. By all means take issue with any point I’ve made but do try to cut out the ad hominem attacks. It’s tiresome and largely why I usually resist the temptation to post.

That and having 6 fingers.

[Seveno]

Yep, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I reckon he will be a useful ally for the SPFL though.



If true that tells us it's all about compensation. I still think an out of court settlement is the most likely outcome.

I'm not convinced a law court would have the power to order any sort of reconstruction or null and void in any case. Reinstate Hearts in the top league at the expense of Dundee United possibly.

Surely the SPFL Board would have to seek approval from the member clubs for an out of court settlement and the amount to be offered, given that the member clubs would have to pay it?

[Ozyhibby]

Surely the SPFL Board would have to seek approval from the member clubs for an out of court settlement and the amount to be offered, given that the member clubs would have to pay it?

They absolutely would. [emoji106]


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[Waxy]

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[Andy74]

So, they are going just to ask for there to be no relegation because it is not fair. Good luck with that.

[mal]

"a petition ... to challenge ... decision of the SPFL to enforce regulations ..."

Did none of them read that back to hear how it sounded?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Subtext "give us some money to go away".

[Andy74]

"a petition ... to challenge ... decision of the SPFL to enforce regulations ..."

Did none of them read that back to hear how it sounded?

It reads enforce relegations not regulations.

[Irish_Steve]

Can the SPFL just reply " Saw it Ann"

[Sammy7nil]

a) I am still here
b) I am signed up to HSL
c) What makes you think I am a ‘he’?
d) Please try to stop making assumptions about me. By all means take issue with any point I’ve made but do try to cut out the ad hominem attacks. It’s tiresome and largely why I usually resist the temptation to post.


That and having 6 fingers.

Honestly the badgering of knew posters is really cringe worthy the poster may or may not be a jumbo or Hibs fan but I think 10 posts with little of note is not nearly enough to make an informed judgement. Just let folk post without the abuse.

[H18 SFR]

It reads enforce relegations not regulations.

But they weren’t relegated they were expelled according to them.

[Andy74]

Subtext "give us some money to go away".

Which doesn't work because where do you start with having some sporting penalty for finishing last and how are they rest of us compensated for the things which we might have missed out on?

The wording of that statement is amateurish - I am assuming they must have some more detail to their case rather than accepting that everything has been done properly because they agree with the league standings but they just don't want to go down?

They don't have anything here.

[hibee_nation]

Why is it always 30 years for a ST when their Hibbiness is in question, is it part of a script they learn before dropping behind enemy lines.

[ac1]

So everything stands apart from relegation (because that does not suit us)

I think Hibs should challenge this and ask for the cash we lost out on and all the the numerous other teams who could have finished in other positions if they had all won their games

[Craig_in_Prague]

Which doesn't work because where do you start with having some sporting penalty for finishing last and how are they rest of us compensated for the things which we might have missed out on?

The wording of that statement is amateurish - I am assuming they must have some more detail to their case rather than accepting that everything has been done properly because they agree with the league standings but they just don't want to go down?

They don't have anything here.

Yep,they have no issue with champions declared nor European spots! But relegation isnt ok!

Wow.

I do wonder how this all ends.

[mutley]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

Soooooooo, can this get them into bother with SFA?


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[MrSmith]

I am really done with this childish self serving nonsense! Let the SPFL employ Donald Findlay to defend the position :D

[Aldo]

So, they are going just to ask for there to be no relegation because it is not fair. Good luck with that.

But saying there should be champions to keep in Lawwells good books.

That’s that then. They’ve taken the SPFL to court which is a breach of rules.

Step forward the SFA


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[Andy74]

Hearts fans actually seem to be seeing this as a work of legal genius!! :confused:

[Waxy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

Soooooooo, can this get them into bother with SFA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProKelty and Brora get yourselves ready for league two football.

[Aldo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

Soooooooo, can this get them into bother with SFA?


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I think it can


Under the SFA articles of association rule 5.1c, clubs have agreed “all members shall recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the Fifa and the Uefa statutes”.


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[Andy74]

But saying there should be champions to keep in Lawwells good books.

That’s that then. They’ve taken the SPFL to court which is a breach of rules.

Step forward the SFA


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Exactly - they are accepting the vote they took part in. They are accepting there are champions and accepting that the standings are fine because they aren't arguing the payments.

This is a court - I'm not sure what legal basis they have to say that whilst accepting all that they think being relegated this one year isn't fair?

For anyone who suspected they might have something - they don't.

[speedy_gonzales]

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No further comment will be made by either Club at this time.

Do you pinky promise???

[147lothian]

Hearts fans actually seem to be seeing this as a work of legal genius!! :confused:

They must have Bob Geldof representing them in court because all it seems to ssay is "Give me the ****ing money".

[bringbackbenny]

That’s that then. They’ve taken the SPFL to court which is a breach of rules.

Step forward the SFA


In Rod we trust

[Del Boy]

So are they arguing that there should be no promotions?

[madhatter]

Where do Hearts and Partick think this supposed increased parachute payment is coming from? SPFL tree of money? Anything they get will come out of the general pot for all clubs surely? In other words how is claiming more money for your club altruistic?

Hibs lost out on money as league was called early. Hibs are having to look at staff wage cuts and likely redundancies. Should every club just sue the governing body until we all just implode?

[Aldo]

Exactly - they are accepting the vote they took part in. They are accepting there are champions and accepting that the standings are fine because they aren't arguing the payments.

This is a court - I'm not sure what legal basis they have to say that whilst accepting all that they think being relegated this one year isn't fair?

For anyone who suspected they might have something - they don't.

So they are happy with promotion and champions but not relegation.

They don’t want to halt the start of the season but they have the option.

So they have asked for a 7 day turnaround.

Let’s see where this goes.

They are wanting the rules changed to suit and if everyone did that the games up.

As for the rules of taking the SPFL to court. I would suggest that said rule has been broken and they need to be brought to case. PTFC also


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[Rumble de Thump]

On the 15th of June Hearts released a statement attacking the SPFL and other clubs as they announced they had begun legal action. Their statement incldued the line: "Given that this is now an active legal matter, the club will be offering no further comment at this time."

Two days later they release another statement attacking the SPFL and other clubs as they announce (again) that they have begun legal acttion, which ends: "No further comment will be made by either Club at this time."

Given they have begun legal action. surely it's not acceptable to being publicly attacking the organisation you have launched legal action against. It seems like a very Hearts thing to do.

[GlesgaeHibby]

So they are happy with promotion and champions but not relegation.

They don’t want to halt the start of the season but they have the option.

So they have asked for a 7 day turnaround.

Let’s see where this goes.

They are wanting the rules changed to suit and if everyone did that the games up.

As for the rules of taking the SPFL to court. I would suggest that said rule has been broken and they need to be brought to case. PTFC also


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Utterly absurd to be challenging promotion and relegation while being content with champions being declared.

[Bostonhibby]

I think it can


Under the SFA articles of association rule 5.1c, clubs have agreed “all members shall recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the Fifa and the Uefa statutes”.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkUEFA have form where the CAS are ignored as well.

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[AltheHibby]

They have the independent review from the auditors to support their defence. Up against that, 'it's no fair, my conveyance said," will likely carry zero weight.

My earlier comment was meant to be facetious, but it looks like I hit the bullseye. :cb

[greenpaper55]

Give us the money or we hold you to ransom !

[Bobby's Cinema]

Utterly absurd to be challenging promotion and relegation while being content with champions being declared.
'We don't care about anything else, only that we ourselves are spared.'

Another demonstration of humble and honest Hearts acting in the best interests of scottish football while everyone else acts in self interest.

Alongside their proposals for a 14 top league, and after that suit yourselves we don't care what format. A true class act

[007]

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Wanting to shaft Dundee United, Raith and Cove who will then take legal action if Hearts win the case.

[Since452]

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Bitter ****bags. Hope they fall flat on their face.

[Victor]

Still don’t see what they are challenging. How can you overturn a majority members vote? If this is over Dundee’s failed vote, then it makes even less sense.

[007]

I think it can


Under the SFA articles of association rule 5.1c, clubs have agreed “all members shall recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the Fifa and the Uefa statutes”.


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Kick them out. 12-12-16.

[Aldo]

UEFA have form where the CAS are ignored as well.

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They have so here’s hoping the SFA are taking notes and preparing a case of their own!


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[Sergio sledge]

It's interesting that their challenge seems to be based on the SPFL changing the rules on promotion and relegations rather than the decision to end the league itself.

Obviously we don't know exactly what they are basing this on, but to my mind the only rules regarding promotion and relegations that were changed were the scrapping of the playoffs, which doesn't affect either Hearts or Thistle.

The SPFL rules that we've seen clearly state that the season ends after all the games are completed or as and when the board decides which happened in this case. When the season is complete promotions and relegations happen according to the rules i.e. bottom club is automatically relegated and top club promoted. The clubs who are disadvantaged by a change in the rules are the clubs in promotion playoff positions and not Hearts or Thistle.

There must be more to it than I'm seeing though as their lawyers must think they have a case they can argue. Either that or they're just angling for an out of court settlement and think the settlement they can get is far more than the cost of the lawyers lodging the petition.

[007]

Where's their duty of care to Dundee United, Raith and Cove? Hypocrites.

[Victor]

It's interesting that their challenge seems to be based on the SPFL changing the rules on promotion and relegations rather than the decision to end the league itself.

Obviously we don't know exactly what they are basing this on, but to my mind the only rules regarding promotion and relegations that were changed were the scrapping of the playoffs, which doesn't affect either Hearts or Thistle.

The SPFL rules that we've seen clearly state that the season ends after all the games are completed or as and when the board decides which happened in this case. When the season is complete promotions and relegations happen according to the rules i.e. bottom club is automatically relegated and top club promoted. The clubs who are disadvantaged by a change in the rules are the clubs in promotion playoff positions and not Hearts or Thistle.

There must be more to it than I'm seeing though as their lawyers must think they have a case they can argue. Either that or they're just angling for an out of court settlement and think the settlement they can get is far more than the cost of the lawyers lodging the petition.

Think their challenge has been submitted by Lionel Hutz. A blatant attempt to extort funds via a legal challenge with little hope of success, other than an out of court settlement.

[Jim44]

Big of Budge not to go immediately for an interdict. She clearly likes to wrap her dispute in threatening language. She knows that, had she gone for an interdict, she would likely have been refused, probably weakening her ensuing action. I initially was of the opinion that they might have been entitled to some sort of financial compensation but I hope now that they get nowt, are laughed out of court and that the Scottish football authorities throw the book at them and involve UEFA in dealing with them.

[H18 SFR]

Do you not think she’s started legal action simply to save face with the masses? By doing so she will see off an absolute **** storm.

[steviehibsleith]

It's interesting that their challenge seems to be based on the SPFL changing the rules on promotion and relegations rather than the decision to end the league itself.

Obviously we don't know exactly what they are basing this on, but to my mind the only rules regarding promotion and relegations that were changed were the scrapping of the playoffs, which doesn't affect either Hearts or Thistle.

The SPFL rules that we've seen clearly state that the season ends after all the games are completed or as and when the board decides which happened in this case. When the season is complete promotions and relegations happen according to the rules i.e. bottom club is automatically relegated and top club promoted. The clubs who are disadvantaged by a change in the rules are the clubs in promotion playoff positions and not Hearts or Thistle.

There must be more to it than I'm seeing though as their lawyers must think they have a case they can argue. Either that or they're just angling for an out of court settlement and think the settlement they can get is far more than the cost of the lawyers lodging the petition.

And very shortly a agreement out of court for 6 million to hearts with PT getting 250k

The league continue as is
Hearts Laud Anne and claim a victory and play happily in the Championship

And JAnderson deposits a cheque for 6.25 Million to the SPFL which no one ever hears about .

[Waxy]

Sure no relegated club has been given compensation before.
Give them nothing.

[Del Boy]

Where's their duty of care to Dundee United, Raith and Cove? Hypocrites.

Budge kept saying no club should be punished as a result of coronavirus. Dundee United and Cove Rangers ran away with their leagues after investing heavily to be promoted and that old bint now thinks they should be punished just so Hearts who have been utter ***** can be saved from relegation. Absolutely disgusting, and as much as I sympathise with Thistle if they’re putting their name to this they can **** off as well.

[Springbank]

Budge kept saying no club should be punished as a result of coronavirus. Dundee United and Cove Rangers ran away with their leagues after investing heavily to be promoted and that old bint now thinks they should be punished just so Hearts who have been utter ***** can be saved from relegation. Absolutely disgusting, and as much as I sympathise with Thistle if they’re putting their name to this they can **** off as well.

Thistle losing all sorts of goodwill across the country

[Peevemor]

I see they're saying that the decision was "unfair and unjust".

What's the difference?

[truehibernian]

Hearts fans actually seem to be seeing this as a work of legal genius!! :confused:

It's most certainly not :greengrin add into the mix they 'reserve the right' to consider an interim interdict if their action fails :faf: classic appeasement statement - will never happen :aok: Joe Bloggs can raise a writ for judicial review.

Funny watching it unfold though - just hope wee Leslie remembers that giant bee he let out the jar when he was a bairn :greengrin

[Waxy]

Stranraer played this part superbly. Piggy back on any (unexpected) success from the double desperados but are squeaky clean against any (inevitable) sanctions.

[007]

Big of Budge not to go immediately for an interdict. She clearly likes to wrap her dispute in threatening language. She knows that, had she gone for an interdict, she would likely have been refused, probably weakening her ensuing action. I initially was of the opinion that they might have been entitled to some sort of financial compensation but I hope now that they get nowt, are laughed out of court and that the Scottish football authorities throw the book at them and involve UEFA in dealing with them.

Her QC will have advised her she'll either not get an interim interdict or will possibly have to put up a sh¡toad of security to cover any of the SPFL's resultant losses, if/when she loses the case. Instead, they are just trying to use the threat of it as leverage because if they apply for the interdict and likely get told no or have to put multiple millions on the line then they've weakened their position.

I'd say they're not confident of getting the interdict because if they got it, they'd be in a stronger negotiating position and could move the case to a final outcome quicker. Probably solicitors wanting to drag it out to maximise their fees.

[jacomo]

Is it normal to ask the courts for a remedy but at the same time also say you are open to compensation if it’s not successful?

Surely you are either confident of your case or you are not.

[Aldo]

Her QC will have advised her she'll either not get an interim interdict or will possibly have to put up a sh¡toad of security to cover any of the SPFL's resultant losses, if/when she loses the case. Instead, they are just trying to use the threat of it as leverage because if they apply for the interdict and likely get told no or have to put multiple millions on the line then they've weakened their position.

I'd say they're not confident of getting the interdict because if they got it, they'd be in a stronger negotiating position and could move the case to a final outcome quicker. Probably solicitors wanting to drag it out to maximise their fees.

So if they don’t get their own way they will apply for the interdict to halt play.

Very dangerous game being played by Budge and co. Do you think she aware she’s broken the rules by taking the SPFL to court?


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[truehibernian]

Her QC will have advised her she'll either not get an interim interdict or will possibly have to put up a sh¡toad of security to cover any of the SPFL's resultant losses, if/when she loses the case. Instead, they are just trying to use the threat of it as leverage because if they apply for the interdict and likely get told no or have to put multiple millions on the line then they've weakened their position.

I'd say they're not confident of getting the interdict because if they got it, they'd be in a stronger negotiating position and could move the case to a final outcome quicker. Probably solicitors wanting to drag it out to maximise their fees.

Don't forget that Celtic and The Rangers have been very quiet on the court situation - there's a huge reason why she has not gone for any interdict (she'd lose). They are still to wade in with their 'influence' :agree: Hearts are not the establishment club...........be mindful of that :cb

I'm finding it very amusing. Hearts fans have been watching way too much Judge Rinder. Might watch some Petrocelli box sets tonight to keep up with their newly acquired legal acumen :greengrin

[mal]

It reads enforce relegations not regulations.

Oops! Maybe I should have read it with my glasses in before getting on my high horse.

[ac1]

Don't forget that Celtic and The Rangers have been very quiet on the court situation - there's a huge reason why she has not gone for any interdict (she'd lose). They are still to wade in with their 'influence' :agree: Hearts are not the establishment club...........be mindful of that :cb

I'm finding it very amusing. Hearts fans have been watching way too much Judge Rinder. Might watch some Petrocelli box sets tonight to keep up with their newly acquired legal acumen :greengrin

They are unreal on Kickback - all week they have been in a rage 'The SPFL only stopped the league so they could make sure Celtic get 9 in a row' - now they think Budge is playing a blinder by not having a problem with Celtic getting the title?!

Make up your minds 😆

[GonzoReturns]

So if they don’t get their own way they will apply for the interdict to halt play.

Very dangerous game being played by Budge and co. Do you think she aware she’s broken the rules by taking the SPFL to court?


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Her legal team have presumably told her she can. Be interesting to hear what the SPFL say over the next week. As the SPFL is a members run organization can see several conference calls involving 40 clubs!! Would also expect the SFA taking legal advice. The other worry, are there are other agendas/politics/power struggles going on as well. Maybe the SPFL should be saying right here’s your membership fees back now ****** off.

[Eyrie]

Can't see why the court would prevent the new season starting. Any delay would have to be until the court case is heard, but there's already a back log in the courts as it is due to coronavirus. The damage that delay would cause to all of Scottish football is out of all proportion to any damage (real or imaginary) suffered by Hearts and Partick. They can be recompensed in other ways (ie financially) if they win their case.

Assessing the amount of financial loss will be interesting. They would need to demonstrate that their losses are solely the result of the SPFL's actions and not due to other factors.

The second tier not starting until October is likely to be irrelevant if the Premiership is playing behind closed doors. Reduced attendances when fans are allowed back will be partly due to coronavirus, and partly to the inevitable decrease when a team has played badly. The only provable element will be the reduced away supports with no derbies or Ugly Sisters.

We already know that the two Scottish clubs comparable in size to Hearts have spoken publicly about the coronavirus causing financial problems. Hearts are in a worse position by attempting to force through salary cuts long before they were relegated. They can't blame everything on "relegation" and expect to come out better off than their two direct competitors.

It doesn't help Hearts that in nine of the last ten seasons the club that was bottom after thirty games was automatically relegated and the only exception was just one point behind, not four. Combine that with their form last season and it's difficult to prove that they wouldn't have gone down anyway.

The SPFL gave Hearts opportunities to find a way that would keep them up and Hearts were unable to do that beyond wanting a fourteen team league, which was then democratically rejected by the member clubs. Any duty of care owed by those clubs to Hearts and Partick has to be offset by the duty of care that every club owes to whichever clubs found themselves disadvantaged by the fourteen team league.

Partick may have more grounds for a claim if the bottom two leagues don't go ahead, although I think that there would be enough clubs willing to play to at least form one league.

[Peevemor]

Don't forget that Celtic and The Rangers have been very quiet on the court situation - there's a huge reason why she has not gone for any interdict (she'd lose). They are still to wade in with their 'influence' :agree: Hearts are not the establishment club...........be mindful of that :cb

I'm finding it very amusing. Hearts fans have been watching way too much Judge Rinder. Might watch some Petrocelli box sets tonight to keep up with their newly acquired legal acumen :greengrinPetrocelli! I've just realised why their stand's not finished.

[660]

Just heard hearts have donated £1m to the NHS for every win outwith Edinburgh in season 19/20. Credit where credits due to the big team 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 no wonder they won a a world war on their own

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a pretty weak statement from Hearts. They clearly are not confident in their case. There appears to be no point of law they have identified?


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[tamig]

And very shortly a agreement out of court for 6 million to hearts with PT getting 250k

The league continue as is
Hearts Laud Anne and claim a victory and play happily in the Championship

And JAnderson deposits a cheque for 6.25 Million to the SPFL which no one ever hears about .
Why would anyone agree to 6m to them for anything? Its a ludicrous amount of money. They were relegated and are entitled to nowt.

[bingo70]

It’s a pretty weak statement from Hearts. They clearly are not confident in their case. There appears to be no point of law they have identified?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it not something to do with it not being a criminal case so no law needs to be broken? It’s a civil case (might not be the right term?) so they’re questioning the fairness of it rather than the legality of it?

There’s every chance I’ve got that completely wrong but sure my jambo mates explanation was something along those lines.

[Peevemor]

When was the last time a civil court ruled on a sporting decision?

[bingo70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news

[Prof. Shaggy]

No he didn’t, he used other people’s money, chancer

Is that not what we're saying here?

[007]

So if they don’t get their own way they will apply for the interdict to halt play.

Very dangerous game being played by Budge and co. Do you think she aware she’s broken the rules by taking the SPFL to court?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think they'll apply for it. They'll keep it in their back pocket and try and use it as leverage. Usual Jambo bulls**t spin will be that it is for the good of the game that they've not done it.

Is it definitely the SPFL they can't take to court (per the rules)? Or is it just the SFA, (or is it both) they can't take to court? Someone has posted something about it on here but I can't remember what?

[jgl07]

Is it not something to do with it not being a criminal case so no law needs to be broken? It’s a civil case (might not be the right term?) so they’re questioning the fairness of it rather than the legality of it?


Hearts have been committing crimes against football for years.

[jacomo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news


They are a Big club and they think Bigly.

[truehibernian]

Is it not something to do with it not being a criminal case so no law needs to be broken? It’s a civil case (might not be the right term?) so they’re questioning the fairness of it rather than the legality of it?

There’s every chance I’ve got that completely wrong but sure my jambo mates explanation was something along those lines.

They are questioning due process and the (defenders) decision that has ultimately adversely affected them (both) - asking for a judicial review of the decision to relegate and the process involved which came to that final decision (and its lawfulness within the realms of the defenders constitution and terms as laid out).

[Since452]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[madhatter]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news

:hilarious that is quite honestly insane. That’s not attempting to gain an enhanced relegation parachute package. That’s literally getting the league to cover the cost of them being in that league for a season...at very least a substantial amount of the cost.

Can other member clubs group together and create a vote on Hearts and Patrick’s membership?

[matty_f]

£8m??? Good luck with that :faf:

[Aldo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news

WTF 8 million and Thistle £2 million.

They’ll need that for the potential fine the SFA will hand out


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[Irish_Steve]

Here`s a thought which is probably absolute nonsense but by actually taking part in any votes, Hearts would be accepting the result of said vote.

What would have happened if they had`ve refused to take part?

[matty_f]

Here`s a thought which is probably absolute nonsense but by actually taking part in any votes, Hearts would be accepting the result of said vote.

What would have happened if they had`ve refused to take part?

Considered as abstaining, I'd presume.

[Andy74]

They are questioning due process and the (defenders) decision that has ultimately adversely affected them (both) - asking for a judicial review of the decision to relegate and the process involved which came to that final decision (and its lawfulness within the realms of the defenders constitution and terms as laid out).

It's not clear that it is questioning the process involved - in fact they seem to be supporting most of what was involved in that decisions making process. Their case seems to amount to no more than it is unfair to relegate teams in the current circumstances.

[GonzoReturns]

Through out this there has been the Scottish football must stand together well right now the 40 clubs need to and tell Hearts and Partick they are no longer part of the SPFL. Let them set up their own league.

[Caversham Green]

Can't see why the court would prevent the new season starting. Any delay would have to be until the court case is heard, but there's already a back log in the courts as it is due to coronavirus. The damage that delay would cause to all of Scottish football is out of all proportion to any damage (real or imaginary) suffered by Hearts and Partick. They can be recompensed in other ways (ie financially) if they win their case.

Assessing the amount of financial loss will be interesting. They would need to demonstrate that their losses are solely the result of the SPFL's actions and not due to other factors.

The second tier not starting until October is likely to be irrelevant if the Premiership is playing behind closed doors. Reduced attendances when fans are allowed back will be partly due to coronavirus, and partly to the inevitable decrease when a team has played badly. The only provable element will be the reduced away supports with no derbies or Ugly Sisters.

We already know that the two Scottish clubs comparable in size to Hearts have spoken publicly about the coronavirus causing financial problems. Hearts are in a worse position by attempting to force through salary cuts long before they were relegated. They can't blame everything on "relegation" and expect to come out better off than their two direct competitors.

It doesn't help Hearts that in nine of the last ten seasons the club that was bottom after thirty games was automatically relegated and the only exception was just one point behind, not four. Combine that with their form last season and it's difficult to prove that they wouldn't have gone down anyway.

The SPFL gave Hearts opportunities to find a way that would keep them up and Hearts were unable to do that beyond wanting a fourteen team league, which was then democratically rejected by the member clubs. Any duty of care owed by those clubs to Hearts and Partick has to be offset by the duty of care that every club owes to whichever clubs found themselves disadvantaged by the fourteen team league.

Partick may have more grounds for a claim if the bottom two leagues don't go ahead, although I think that there would be enough clubs willing to play to at least form one league.

An excellent summary. One other thing to that has been mentioned several times already, why go to the Court of Session when there is a specialist court dedicated to settling these sort of disputes? Presumably their legal representatives took account of that but I just can't see any reason for it. Besides which they're in breach of the SFA rules.

[steviehibsleith]

Budge kept saying no club should be punished as a result of coronavirus. Dundee United and Cove Rangers ran away with their leagues after investing heavily to be promoted and that old bint now thinks they should be punished just so Hearts who have been utter ***** can be saved from relegation. Absolutely disgusting, and as much as I sympathise with Thistle if they’re putting their name to this they can **** off as well.


Why would anyone agree to 6m to them for anything? Its a ludicrous amount of money. They were relegated and are entitled to nowt.

The last part says JAnderson pays. In essence Hearts are paying their own compensation

[Jim44]

Through out this there has been the Scottish football must stand together well right now the 40 clubs need to and tell Hearts and Partick they are no longer part of the SPFL. Let them set up their own league.

I don’t know about them setting up an independent league ‘cos they’ll be Jimmy nae Pals. But, whether they win or lose, I hope the SFA and SPFL have the balls to take action against them. Termination of their membership would be ‘pleasing’. 😀

[MrSmith]

They must be desperate and on the brink of admin. £8m for what?

[Sammy7nil]

WTF 8 million and Thistle £2 million.

They’ll need that for the potential fine the SFA will hand out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thistles turnover last year was £3 million so their turnover will drop by 66% ? Should they not also be making cuts there by reducing their potential loses?

[Caversham Green]

WTF 8 million and Thistle £2 million.

They’ll need that for the potential fine the SFA will hand out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thistle's total turnover for 2019 was £3m - they're saying they'll lose two thirds of their income as a direct result of being relegated.

[Rumble de Thump]

Surely Budge must have got around to reading the SPFL rules by now.

[truehibernian]

It's not clear that it is questioning the process involved - in fact they seem to be supporting most of what was involved in that decisions making process. Their case seems to amount to no more than it is unfair to relegate teams in the current circumstances.

They are - they are questioning the whole process in the sense that the decision that the SPFL made to relegate is against what is within the regulations as set out in the constitution - the fact they both 'agree' or do not contest promotion and champions is irrelevant - in fact, (as you kind of imply Andy) it's harmful to their overall case (in my opinion) making that 'allowance'. The Rangers - as an example - could have won the league (mathematically). Other sides could have achieved a promotion play-off. Partick can argue they could have played their way out of it, equally Ayr United could have argued they could won promotion through the play-offs. We could have achieved a Euro spot :cb

Covid-19, Government restrictions, public health - that's the grenade in the room and one which any court will have to have sympathetic and realisitic views. Added to that, the SPFL are 42 clubs , not 2, each with a democratic vote. Scotland announced today we are in recession and the worst hit out of all the UK countries.......let's see a court here grant interdicts that curtail any (wider) economic (and social) growth :wink:

It all boils down to could the SPFL take/reach (fairly) the decision they came to. And in my opinion - unbiased - they could - as they put it to their members. They even reached out thereafter, to a vote(s), to see if there was option(s) to remedy that decision (and change it). The clubs collectively, and democratically decided - relegate Hearts, Partick and Stranraer.

[Aldo]

Thistles turnover last year was £3 million so their turnover will drop by 66% ? Should they not also be making cuts there by reducing their potential loses?

And it’s their own fault for being bottom. Harsh but simple really. Any sympathy I had for them has waned and now they are in bed with Budge and co they will get what’s coming to them for breaking the rules by taking the SPFL to court!

Have they actually thought what they are going to do should they lose??


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[Aldo]

Thistle's total turnover for 2019 was £3m - they're saying they'll lose two thirds of their income as a direct result of being relegated.

Really.

Should have played a bit better then! Just like Budges mob.

I’d like to hear the SFA’s take is in all this? Or will they wait and see the outcome?


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[007]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53080219

£8m hearts are wanting?! Apologies if that’s old news

Not surprised at their greed. Budge herself said she couldn't calculate it so she just keeps chucking on milions every few days.😂😂😂 Just as I thought, they're wanting immunity from the effect of Covid-19, imagine trying to profit off that.

[GonzoReturns]

I don’t know about them setting up an independent league ‘cos they’ll be Jimmy nae Pals. But, whether they win or lose, I hope the SFA and SPFL have the balls to take action against them. Termination of their membership would be ‘pleasing’. 😀

👍👍👍😂😂

[truehibernian]

Interesting Thistle are claiming £2 million..........exactly the same amount quoted that the Weir estate is allegedly giving them post his sad passing. Shameful stuff from them.

[truehibernian]

Not surprised at their greed. Budge herself said she couldn't calculate it so she just keeps chucking on milions every few days.😂😂😂 Just as I thought, they're wanting immunity from the effect of Covid-19, imagine trying to profit off that.

And equally unsurprising that they overspent on their main stand to the tune of £10 million :cb

[Col2]

Thistle's total turnover for 2019 was £3m - they're saying they'll lose two thirds of their income as a direct result of being relegated.

Bit it will take the courts 5 mins to differentiate between relegation impact and Covid Impact (which everyone has).

So based on us admitting a 50% reduction in turnover that means thistle straight away down to £1.5m as a starting point and then overlay relegation (best case for them). So likely to be at best £750k.

[calumhibee1]

Shameful that they’re trying to profit from the COVID-19 situation while family’s all over the world have lost loved ones. Not surprising in the slightest though. Because let’s make no mistake - that’s exactly what they’re trying to do here.

[Rumble de Thump]

Budge and the rest of the Hearts board are well aware that they're in the wrong. But Budge has screwed up big time. Her mismangement has taken them to the Championship, while squandering £10 million+ on the stand alone, and she has blamed everyone but herself. She has been threatening legal action for some time and it will be getting financed by her cash human. It's his money that will be lost and Budge will tell the Hearts fans she did everything she possibly could (apart from manage the club well).

[ancient hibee]

And
And it’s their own fault for being bottom. Harsh but simple really. Any sympathy I had for them has waned and now they are in bed with Budge and co they will get what’s coming to them for breaking the rules by taking the SPFL to court!

Have they actually thought what they are going to do should they lose??


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If they lose they’ll do what the SPFL will do if they lose- appeal.

[660]

What is thistles turnover? £2m is ridiculous as is 8m for the lothians third club

[Aldo]

And

If they lose they’ll do what the SPFL will do if they lose- appeal.

Indeed however I’m hoping the SFA throw the book at them both!


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[CB_NO3]

Their revenue would have dropped by about 50% this season no matter what league they were in. Good luck with £8M

[Spike Mandela]

An excellent summary. One other thing to that has been mentioned several times already, why go to the Court of Session when there is a specialist court dedicated to settling these sort of disputes? Presumably their legal representatives took account of that but I just can't see any reason for it. Besides which they're in breach of the SFA rules.

The SFA won’t do anything. They never did previously...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/18270735

[hibbyfraelibby]

Paid Member

1,588 posts
Location - Edinburgh
Posted 7 minutes ago
41 minutes ago, David McCaig said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/david-winnie-is-fearful-of-lasting-damage-as-relegated-pair-go-to-court-z0rkv5w2d


David Winnie, a Scottish Cup winner with St Mirren who also turned out for Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee, knows the game but his legal eye sets him apart as member clubs prepare to take action against Scottish football.

Winnie, the head of sports law at Mayfair-based Charles Douglas Solicitors LLP, believes that the process of bringing Scottish football grinding to a halt may have already begun. The 53-year-old also warned that Hearts and Partick Thistle going down the judicial route could do irreparable damage to the Scottish game, both financially and by fomenting resentment which will take years to dissipate.

“When you look at sums of £6-7 million being bandied about as the cost to Hearts of not being in the top tier this season, I don’t think they had any other option but to do this,” he said.

“The cost of taking this action will be outweighed by the financial cost of demotion so, from their perspective, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain in that regard. The way things have gone with reconstruction, this was always likely to end up in court.

“Hearts have two causes of action contractually. Regarding membership of the SPFL, it’s an agreement between the clubs and the body itself and the clubs are party to a contract with the SPFL and each other.

“If the SPFL, by omission or by failing to follow its own corporate framework in passing a written resolution, will be in breach of that contract. You need to take it back to the issue of Dundee’s ‘missing’ vote.

“As far as I can see, the original ‘no’ vote from Dundee [which opposed ending the season] should have stood. Their secretary, Eric Drysdale, confirmed that the vote had been sent and that it had been received: it wasn’t a bounce back.

“In company law, there is no obligation on any member to cast a negative vote. Generally, members will vote in favour of a resolution and, if they don’t reply, they’re not in favour.

“However, what had been invited in terms of this resolution was a submission by clubs as to whether they were for or against the motion to end the season. When Dundee voted no, that should have stood.

“I also think there was also a lack of information provided to the members on which to base their decisions, specifically the fact that money would need to be repaid to Sky for unfulfilled fixtures. You could argue as to whether or not that information was material but the financial implications for Hearts are catastrophic.”

Season 2020-21 will be the most compressed in the game’s history, with competitions being carried over from last season due to the Covid-19 crisis at one end and an early close to accommodate the displaced Euro 2020 finals at the other, and Winnie anticipates that state of affairs worsening.

“If I was advising Hearts, I would seek an interim interdict on the Premiership season starting, on the grounds that they should be involved in it. In fact, given that they announced their intention to take the SPFL to court immediately after their reconstruction plan was voted down on Monday, I suspect that they have already done so.

“That would provide the SPFL with a logistical nightmare when it comes to delivering a fixture list. Ideally, this case will be fast-tracked at the Court of Session — the window is narrowing so the ruling must be expedited. If not, it may drag on for months and, if the ruling is in Hearts’ favour, then the Premiership would need to be restarted with them in it, which could lead to chaos and more contractual trouble with the broadcasters.

“I would also seek compensation for being relegated when there was a mathematical possibility that Hearts could have survived. Even if that amounted to only half of their projected losses for next season, that is money that would be paid for by the other members.

“Factor in Partick Thistle’s parachute payment and you could be looking at the other 40 clubs each losing around £100,000. Celtic are the only ones who can afford that — this action has the potential to decimate Scottish football.

“The game isn’t meant to be played out in court and the judge shouldn’t be the referee. However this ends, no one will be happy and there will be a whole host of ill will directed at Hearts and Thistle.

“I have sympathy for the SPFL board, who were attempting to deal with a situation which was truly unprecedented. They have admitted to making mistakes but those procedural errors will provide Hearts with ammunition. It will still be difficult for them to succeed and, ultimately, there will be no winners.”

So now we know who the Jumbos went to for their legal advice

[Real Emerald]

They are the biggest cheats in Scottish football. Their Benny Factor saving the whole of Scottish football in one week then suing the whole of Scottish football for £10m the next. The self interest stuff is laughable as that’s all they’re interested in. Any sympathy for them is gone and I hope the SFA//UEFA/FIFA throw them out of football permanently.

[Rumble de Thump]

Isn't the head of the SFA the Partick guy?

[Andy74]

So now we know who the Jumbos went to for their legal advice

I didn’t agree with much of what he had to say on this but it made a lot more sense than what Hearts have actually come up with.

[hibbyfraelibby]

a) I am still here
b) I am signed up to HSL
c) What makes you think I am a ‘he’?
d) Please try to stop making assumptions about me. By all means take issue with any point I’ve made but do try to cut out the ad hominem attacks. It’s tiresome and largely why I usually resist the temptation to post.

A) Groan
B) Reference no?
C) We live in a non-binary world. Not all ships are now called "She"
D) Ad hominem attacks? Peg selling, junkie, Lochender vermin are to thick too use, or even know of that phrase.

So is your real name Doug or Les? Gender unspecifically.

[brog]

So now we know who the Jumbos went to for their legal advice

A lengthy piece which appears to give Hearts some hope then finally he says 'it will still be difficult for them'. That's really the only pertinent comment!

[theonlywayisup]

£8m - what a load of rubbish. £2m - ditto

I assume that's just to cover Hertz's & Thistle loss, so won't include legal costs! So the cost to the other 40 teams will be considerably greater than the £10m.

Surely, Hertz are about to become the most hated team in Scottish Football.

[Peevemor]

Isn't the head of the SFA the Partick guy?I think you'll find it's the Hibs guy.

[SMAXXA]

So now we know who the Jumbos went to for their legal advice

If he reckons it could cost every club 100k, claim the cash from Anderson and we can have a whip round for the other 50k no damage done 😉

[007]

Looking forward to when they get asked to show their workings and all Budge can do is lick her finger and hold it aloft.

Besides, should the claim not be for the losses they'll incur as a result of being in the Championship compared to the Premiership i.e. the impact on the bottom line not the top line. Surely even Budge with her mismanagement skills wouldn't lose £8m more in the Championship than in the Premiership, even with a shorter season.

[GonzoReturns]

If James Anderson really wants to support and protect Scottish football you would hope he will be telling Budge she’s wrong. He can’t have it both ways. Supporting a regime who wants to cripple the Scottish game.

[Aldo]

The SFA won’t do anything. They never did previously...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/18270735

On 20th July 2012 The SFA appealed the decision and the original sentence of a transfer embargo was upheld. This took place between 1 Sept 2012 and August 2013.


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[007]

I work in the legal profession. For what it’s worth the office deliberations in the practice, conducted over coffee and involving 2 QCs concluded that there was a high probability that Partick and Hearts would have some court room success. This of course was based on the publicly known elements of the case only. The view was that an ‘interim’ interdict was quite likely to be successful if only to buy time for a fuller examination of the issues. If the relegation is allowed to stand then damages were thought to be a near certainty. Not what I particularly wanted to hear but brace yourselves.

In your legal opinion, how would they have calculated the £8m claim figure?

[Andy74]

Looking forward to when they get asked to show their workings and all Budge can do is lick her finger and hold it aloft.

Besides, should the claim not be for the losses they'll incur as a result of being in the Championship compared to the Premiership i.e. the impact on the bottom line not the top line. Surely even Budge with her mismanagement skills wouldn't lose £8m more in the Championship than in the Premiership, even with a shorter season.

There’s also the fact they got themselves in that position. The stats seem to show that they had about a 1 in 10 chance of getting to the play off spot if the games continued. You could then look at the circumstances of their most recent games v Hamilton and St Mirren.

They’ve also accepted the league placings.

I’m struggling to see a case for compensation.

[007]

There’s also the fact they got themselves in that position. The stats seem to show that they had about a 1 in 10 chance of getting to the play off spot if the games continued. You could then look at the circumstances of their most recent games v Hamilton and St Mirren.

They’ve also accepted the league placings.

I’m struggling to see a case for compensation.

Even though they were odds on favourites to go down, I doubt the court would take that into consideration. They aren't arguing about the placings, just that the rules were changed. They're saying the rule changes should have had no promotions or relegations.

[GonzoReturns]

If they do get some success in court the SPFL has no money the clubs have no money so any award claim should only be paid back £1 a week 👍👍👍

[Eyrie]

Even though they were odds on favourites to go down, I doubt the court would take that into consideration. They aren't arguing about the placings, just that the rules were changed. They're saying the rule changes should have had no promotions or relegations.

The court isn't going to put Hearts in a better position than they would otherwise have been, so it will have to take into consideration the likelihood that Hearts would have been relegated anyway as a result of their own actions on the pitch.

That may not nullify the compensation claim but it will massively reduce any award.

[Andy74]

Even though they were odds on favourites to go down, I doubt the court would take that into consideration. They aren't arguing about the placings, just that the rules were changed. They're saying the rule changes should have had no promotions or relegations.

They’ve also claimed a figure of compensation if the court doesn’t stop their relegation. The fact that they were pretty much going down anyway would be very relevant to that aspect of it.

[Eyrie]

They’ve also claimed a figure of compensation if the court doesn’t stop their relegation. The fact that they were pretty much going down anyway would be very relevant to that aspect of it.

As would the impact of coronavirus on all clubs in Scotland.

Can't wait for them to provide the court with details of how they calculated the £8m claim. Half the workings will be illegible under the "Smoking Kills" warning.

[bingo70]

https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1273304860402778113?s=21

Hopefully that link works but it’s a Partick Thistle fan saying that despite how unfair it may seem, it’s not a case for the courts and they’re unlikely to win. I don’t know how clued up he is but it made sense to me. Just hope he’s right.

[SteveHFC]

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/188814-spfl-declare-league-due-to-covid-partick-join-legal-action-cos-petition-lodged/&do=findComment&comment=7937257

Will they aye? :hilarious

[SouthMoroccoStu]

I think we should join the lawsuit
We lost out on about £150k for dropping a league place

So we can ask for £3.5m

[Radium]

Given that games are being played without crowds, and there is no date for this changing the starting point for any compensation is the difference in prize money between top of championship/ league 1 and bottom in the higher league. No guarantees about finishing positions though.

Given that neither team will have to play before October, the will retain access to the furlough scheme for staff and players, reducing costs.

They will not have to pay for CV-19 testing till they are allowed to train. More savings.

... and all this is based on the idea that you can square how to promote a team without relegation. Perhaps they will refer to Hilberts paradox of the grand hotel.

https://youtu.be/faQBrAQ87l4



[emoji16]


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[Logie Green]

There’s also the fact they got themselves in that position. The stats seem to show that they had about a 1 in 10 chance of getting to the play off spot if the games continued. You could then look at the circumstances of their most recent games v Hamilton and St Mirren.

They’ve also accepted the league placings.

I’m struggling to see a case for compensation.

How do you calculate they had a 1 in 10 chance of being in the play-offs when they were only 4 points from the play-off position?

[Andy74]

How do you calculate they had a 1 in 10 chance of being in the play-offs when they were only 4 points from the play-off position?

If they are going to make up numbers so am I!

Actually I think it’s about how often teams with that gap manage to actually save themselves with the games left.

[Onion]

Hearts were the worst team in the Prem and about to be relegated. So they use the Covid pandemic as a prop to try squeeze money out of others. How supportive. Ties in perfectly with their previous behaviour of ripping off charities, tax payers, small businesses and other clubs.

If they get money out of other clubs for this, they will become the most hated and will have to brace themselves for the consequences. Chucking them out of football would be a decent response from the members.

[007]

https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1273304860402778113?s=21

Hopefully that link works but it’s a Partick Thistle fan saying that despite how unfair it may seem, it’s not a case for the courts and they’re unlikely to win. I don’t know how clued up he is but it made sense to me. Just hope he’s right.

Better advice than they've been getting.

Still, at least they're keeping solicitors in work seeing as they'd rather not use the money to keep their own employees in work.

[bingo70]

Hearts were the worst team in the Prem and about to be relegated. So they use the Covid pandemic as a prop to try squeeze money out of others. How supportive. Ties in perfectly with their previous behaviour of ripping off charities, tax payers, small businesses and other clubs.

If they get money out of other clubs for this, they will become the most hated and will have to brace themselves for the consequences. Chucking them out of football would be a decent response from the members.

I don’t think there’s any consequences to being the most hated club in Scotland is there?

Not done Rangers that much harm over the years.

[calumhibee1]

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/188814-spfl-declare-league-due-to-covid-partick-join-legal-action-cos-petition-lodged/&do=findComment&comment=7937257

Will they aye? :hilarious

You’d think they’d stop embarrassing themselves by predicting a Hearts victory at every turn. They’ve failed at every hurdle so far and will fail at every hurdle to come.

[gaz1875]

https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1273304860402778113?s=21

Hopefully that link works but it’s a Partick Thistle fan saying that despite how unfair it may seem, it’s not a case for the courts and they’re unlikely to win. I don’t know how clued up he is but it made sense to me. Just hope he’s right.


That guy sounds right and makes sense, or at least what I want to hear :greengrin

[Irish_Steve]

One guy swimming against the tide!

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Posted 1 minute ago
I do worry that we are all in an echo chamber on this thread and so far throughout it all none of it has played in our favour or to our belief of how it will go and i fear this is no different.



There will be no u turn on reconstruction unless the court decides it.



I dont think the SPFL have been twiddling their thumbs the last 2 months and will have been reviewing every last detail of what they did and looking at their articles of association to see if there are any gaps.



If they do nothing in the next 7 days then for me that will show they believe their case is solid.



i’ll say it again they know how to defend the indefensible and seem to dodge bullets for fun so i hope this time they have overstretched it.



Time will tell but im cautious to get too optimistic here.

[Since452]

One guy swimming against the tide!

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Posted 1 minute ago
I do worry that we are all in an echo chamber on this thread and so far throughout it all none of it has played in our favour or to our belief of how it will go and i fear this is no different.



There will be no u turn on reconstruction unless the court decides it.



I dont think the SPFL have been twiddling their thumbs the last 2 months and will have been reviewing every last detail of what they did and looking at their articles of association to see if there are any gaps.



If they do nothing in the next 7 days then for me that will show they believe their case is solid.



i’ll say it again they know how to defend the indefensible and seem to dodge bullets for fun so i hope this time they have overstretched it.



Time will tell but im cautious to get too optimistic here.

That will go down well

[Logie Green]

If they are going to make up numbers so am I!

Actually I think it’s about how often teams with that gap manage to actually save themselves with the games left.

Fair enough. I thought I’d stumbled onto Kickback when I saw your figures....

[bingo70]

That guy sounds right and makes sense, or at least what I want to hear :greengrin

Exactly.

I’m scared to send it to my jambo mate. Their over confidence is worrying me 😆

[Spike Mandela]

On 20th July 2012 The SFA appealed the decision and the original sentence of a transfer embargo was upheld. This took place between 1 Sept 2012 and August 2013.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I remember the famous transfer embargo that took place after the transfer window shut.😂

Point still stands though that the SFA did nothing for Rangers taking them to court. They won’t do anything to Hearts either.

[calumhibee1]

One guy swimming against the tide!

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Posted 1 minute ago
I do worry that we are all in an echo chamber on this thread and so far throughout it all none of it has played in our favour or to our belief of how it will go and i fear this is no different.



There will be no u turn on reconstruction unless the court decides it.



I dont think the SPFL have been twiddling their thumbs the last 2 months and will have been reviewing every last detail of what they did and looking at their articles of association to see if there are any gaps.



If they do nothing in the next 7 days then for me that will show they believe their case is solid.



i’ll say it again they know how to defend the indefensible and seem to dodge bullets for fun so i hope this time they have overstretched it.



Time will tell but im cautious to get too optimistic here.

Nail on the head there.

[weecounty hibby]

Nail on the head there.

Yeah, he'll be a jealous peg selling hobo though. Vermin!!

[greenpaper55]

Can any of the legal eagles help out us lesser mortals, what can a lodged petition at the court of sessions actually do ?
Has that petition been granted ?
the basis of the two clubs complaints seems to be an unfair resolution i take it that was the vote ? and that this caused unfair relegations.
So when was it ok to go to court when something was unfair ?

[007]

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_06/Capture.thumb.PNG.706441c1433d3c85ca6007da6129d65e .PNG (https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2020_06/Capture.PNG.67dc2b56c51219dc34f4cbb693a3b0df.PNG)

"Instead, the petition primarily seeks to reduce the unfair resolution insofar as it changed the SPFL’s rules on promotion and relegation. If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation relative to the significant financial loss which the unfair relegations will visit upon us."

SPFL might as well go to court if all that'll happen is the court will decide Hearts, Partick and Stranraer stay up and Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. Not got a lot to lose, just have to pay Hearts' fees and then shrug at Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove and say "Sorry, nowt we can do, Judge said so."

As for the bit that says:
"If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation..."

I think if the remedy isn't granted by the court then you've lost the case and can shove the £10m up yer erse.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can any of the legal eagles help out us lesser mortals, what can a lodged petition at the court of sessions actually do ?
Has that petition been granted ?
the basis of the two clubs complaints seems to be an unfair resolution i take it that was the vote ? and that this caused unfair relegations.
So when was it ok to go to court when something was unfair ?



That's what the civil courts are there for, amongst other things; to decide what is fair and what isn't.

[tamig]

Exactly.

I’m scared to send it to my jambo mate. Their over confidence is worrying me 😆

They were confident of reconstruction. It was in the bag. Relax man.

[tamig]

"Instead, the petition primarily seeks to reduce the unfair resolution insofar as it changed the SPFL’s rules on promotion and relegation. If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation relative to the significant financial loss which the unfair relegations will visit upon us."

SPFL might as well go to court if all that'll happen is the court will decide Hearts, Partick and Stranraer stay up and Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. Not got a lot to lose, just have to pay Hearts' fees and then shrug at Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove and say "Sorry, nowt we can do, Judge said so."

As for the bit that says:
"If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation..."

I think if the remedy isn't granted by the court then you've lost the case and can shove the £10m up yer erse.

How does that first sentence stack up? No rules were changed in relation to promotion and relegation so far as I can see. The only thing changed were the play-offs - which aren’t relevant here.

[FilipinoHibs]

"Instead, the petition primarily seeks to reduce the unfair resolution insofar as it changed the SPFL’s rules on promotion and relegation. If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation relative to the significant financial loss which the unfair relegations will visit upon us."

SPFL might as well go to court if all that'll happen is the court will decide Hearts, Partick and Stranraer stay up and Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. Not got a lot to lose, just have to pay Hearts' fees and then shrug at Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove and say "Sorry, nowt we can do, Judge said so."

As for the bit that says:
"If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation..."

I think if the remedy isn't granted by the court then you've lost the case and can shove the £10m up yer erse.

I think the SPFL will simply go to court and show the rules were not changed on relegation, that the rules allow the board to call the league early. In this case the member clubs voted and supported the move. On financial losses they will point to losses being suffered because playing football has been restricted to being played behind closed doors by clubs not relegated - Aberdeen, Hibs. Doncaster has been making everything is watertight and ready for this. Budge has been threatening this for weeks and SPFL are ready.

[007]

How does that first sentence stack up? No rules were changed in relation to promotion and relegation so far as I can see. The only thing changed were the play-offs - which aren’t relevant here.

Doesn't really stack up does it. They must be claiming they should change the relegation/promotion rule too. Wonder who wrote that Budge, a solicitor (surely not) or Deans.

[matty_f]

How does that first sentence stack up? No rules were changed in relation to promotion and relegation so far as I can see. The only thing changed were the play-offs - which aren’t relevant here.

Surely not relegating them would have been changing the rules?

[greenpaper55]

How does that first sentence stack up? No rules were changed in relation to promotion and relegation so far as I can see. The only thing changed were the play-offs - which aren’t relevant here.

I see what you mean, maybe they got Deans to write this guff after all he "kens how to sell hooses"

[NYHibby]

How does that first sentence stack up? No rules were changed in relation to promotion and relegation so far as I can see. The only thing changed were the play-offs - which aren’t relevant here.


Surely not relegating them would have been changing the rules?

The first sentence of the statement, which wasn’t quoted above by 007, says “Heart of Midlothian Football Club and Partick Thistle Football Club have today lodged a petition with the Court of Session to challenge the unfair and unjust decision of the SPFL to enforce relegations, to the extreme detriment of those clubs affected.”

That underlined bit doesn’t suggest that they are challenging a change to the rules. It’s closer to challenging an omission of not changing the rules because the result of apply the rules would be unfair and unjust.

[Springbank]

The first sentence of the statement, which wasn’t quoted above by 007, says “Heart of Midlothian Football Club and Partick Thistle Football Club have today lodged a petition with the Court of Session to challenge the unfair and unjust decision of the SPFL to enforce relegations, to the extreme detriment of those clubs affected.”

That underlined bit doesn’t suggest that they are challenging a change to the rules. It’s closer to challenging an omission of not changing the rules because the result of apply the rules would be unfair and unjust.

Difficult to prove this "omission" was a widespread view when the relegations were voted on & approved competently I guess

[greenpaper55]

The BBC headline reads,

"Hearts and Partick Thistle are claiming £10m from the SPFL should the courts rule not to overturn their relegations."

Have they got this correct ?

[bingo70]

The BBC headline reads,

"Hearts and Partick Thistle are claiming £10m from the SPFL should the courts rule not to overturn their relegations."

Have they got this correct ?




Yes, Hearts are after £8m and Partick after £2m

Seriously

[greenpaper55]

Yes, Hearts are after £8m and Partick after £2m

Seriously

So if they lose the court case they still want this dosh !

[tamig]

Yes, Hearts are after £8m and Partick after £2m

Seriously

I’d love to see the breakdown of these numbers. Finger in the air stuff at best.

[green day]

So, am I reading it correctly that they are not looking to stop European competition, or to stop the league starting in August?

I thought that was what we had been promised was absolutely on the table, dead cert etc etc.

All I see here is - Hearts have shat it, dont really have a case, and are just looking for a few quid.

[greenpaper55]

Did i not read somewhere that the SPFL could launch an interdict of their own stopping hearts from taking this further ?

[tamig]

So, am I reading it correctly that they are not looking to stop European competition, or to stop the league starting in August?

I thought that was what we had been promised was absolutely on the table, dead cert etc etc.

All I see here is - Hearts have shat it, dont really have a case, and are just looking for a few quid.
There’s a veiled threat they could still go down the interdict route but its clear they want compo of some kind. They are entitled to zilch. Let it go all the way. I’m sure the league will have a watertight case.

[NYHibby]

Did i not read somewhere that the SPFL could launch an interdict of their own stopping hearts from taking this further ?

I don’t know Scottish civil procedure, since I’m English qualified, but an interdict is not the term used for how the SPFL could attempt to get rid of this claim. They would do the Scottish equivalent of applying for summary judgement or for the claim to be struck out.

[madhatter]

Surely SPFL can just say “this was put to the vote of our member clubs, we are elected by the member clubs. They hold the power of reform, we simply just help to facilitate their will”.

If Hearts reply saying “you could have proactively sought reform in order to protect all clubs” then just say “it is not our place to impose undemocratic positions on our member clubs, we allowed ample time for member clubs to discuss and vote. Their will has been carried out. We would like to add that Heart’s and Partick’s position on this appears to disregard the democratic will of their fellow member clubs as indicated by their intention to attempt to stall commencement of season. Furthermore, threats to the commencement of the season shows a deliberate attempt to damage our game as a whole by holding its member clubs and governing body to ransom.”

This could go quite poorly for Hearts and Partick. Could be very bad if member clubs decide enough is enough.

[bingo70]

There’s a veiled threat they could still go down the interdict route but its clear they want compo of some kind. They are entitled to zilch. Let it go all the way. I’m sure the league will have a watertight case.

I don’t particularly like Neil Doncaster. I think he does a poor job of promoting and selling our game but he strikes me as someone who is probably a very good administrator.

I’ve had many a tantrum over the last few weeks with things not happening quick enough but I do suspect everything done to date will have been with a mind to cover his back in case there was a legal challenge, especially as he knows Rangers are desperate to pounce on any mistake he makes. I’m sure the SPFL know what they are doing and will be confident of a good case.

I just find it a bit surprising Hearts are apparently willing to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on what looks like a pretty flimsy case though.

[007]

So, am I reading it correctly that they are not looking to stop European competition, or to stop the league starting in August?

I thought that was what we had been promised was absolutely on the table, dead cert etc etc.

All I see here is - Hearts have shat it, dont really have a case, and are just looking for a few quid.

The statement proves Deans' words were an empty threat.

They're too scared of Lawwell to try and stop the European stuff, as is proven by them saying they're not trying to reverse any declaration of Champions.

[Since452]

Hearts had better hope that they win this case and win big because they are alienating a lot of clubs and supporters of those clubs. Don't be surprised to see some boycotting happening to them and not the other way around. They won't have many friends left in Scottish football no matter the outcome.

[007]

I don’t particularly like Neil Doncaster. I think he does a poor job of promoting and selling our game but he strikes me as someone who is probably a very good administrator.

I’ve had many a tantrum over the last few weeks with things not happening quick enough but I do suspect everything done to date will have been with a mind to cover his back in case there was a legal challenge, especially as he knows Rangers are desperate to pounce on any mistake he makes. I’m sure the SPFL know what they are doing and will be confident of a good case.

I just find it a bit surprising Hearts are apparently willing to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on what looks like a pretty flimsy case though.

They don't have a choice, the fans would riot. Instead they're now getting the fans' hopes up and stringing them along with talk of £8m and counting. If it does go to court they might be in for a huge disappointment.

[NYHibby]

There’s a veiled threat they could still go down the interdict route but its clear they want compo of some kind. They are entitled to zilch. Let it go all the way. I’m sure the league will have a watertight case.

What is the Scots law test for an interim interdict? Because in England trying to get an interim injunction is inconsistent with also saying at the same time you want compensation. One of the legs of the test for an interim injunction is that damages would not be an adequate remedy, hence a need to preserve the status quo.

[tamig]

I don’t particularly like Neil Doncaster. I think he does a poor job of promoting and selling our game but he strikes me as someone who is probably a very good administrator.

I’ve had many a tantrum over the last few weeks with things not happening quick enough but I do suspect everything done to date will have been with a mind to cover his back in case there was a legal challenge, especially as he knows Rangers are desperate to pounce on any mistake he makes. I’m sure the SPFL know what they are doing and will be confident of a good case.

I just find it a bit surprising Hearts are apparently willing to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on what looks like a pretty flimsy case though.
I think he’s played it pretty much perfectly - although its been frustrating on a few occasions. An important thing he mentioned in his weekend Sky interview was the revelation around the mysterious executive powers. He made it clear that the powers would have been applied in order to call the leagues had the vote not gone the right way. That to me was him ticking the box in case the Dundee fiasco was raised as part of the legal submission.

[007]

Hearts had better hope that they win this case and win big because they are alienating a lot of clubs and supporters of those clubs. Don't be surprised to see some boycotting happening to them and not the other way around. They won't have many friends left in Scottish football no matter the outcome.

Their only friends left will be Partick, Stranraer and Inverness and that's about it. Probably lost Rangers today by stating they're not trying to reverse the declaration of champions. Robertson has probably now flushed the memory stick with the all the files re the SPFLs legal defence plans down the bog. 🤭

[tamig]

What is the Scots law test for an interim interdict? Because in England trying to get an interim injunction is inconsistent with also saying at the same time you want compensation. One of the legs of the test for an interim injunction is that damages would not be an adequate remedy, hence a need to preserve the status quo.

I have absolutely no idea and I was surprised to see the reference to compensation made in that statement. It didn’t seem like the wisest move to me.

[Since452]

Different situation but here's a piece about compensation paid in Holland to a club denied promotion. Sounds more realistic.

https://northerntimes.nl/dutch-football-association-to-give-leeuwarder-club-425000-euros-as-compensation-for-cancelled-season/

[malcolm]

The facts publicly known are that the spfl followed its rules and procedures and went out of its way to allow hearts the opportunity within those rules to get agreement on a outcome that suited them better. It appears that Budge’s remedy was worse than the problem so failed on the test of fairness to other clubs. It also appears that she seems to have made little or no effort to actually crystallise her idea into a proper proposal or to canvas support.


As a petition Hearts are acknowledging that they seek a remedy to which they have no right, and are instead seeking from the court a remedy on a discretionary or equitable basis. The problem is that such a remedy would damage others and so I can’t see a court being persuaded.

A use for a petition approach would be to overcome a lack or omission of an ability to deal with a matter. Nobile officium may be used where there is no legal rule adequately covering a given situation or where there is a legal rule governing a situation but its application would be unduly excessive, oppressive or burdensome. The spfl rule here is relegation and its burdensome nature is simply the competitive outcome that all sign up to and budge’s desired remedy is unduly burdensome to more clubs than their routine relegation at season’s end. It seems unlikely that even without Covid that relegation would have been avoided.

Also the figures being quoted seem fantasy even if they could win there would be no punitive element to damages regardless of how red her neck is for the mess of her own creation and the putative losses are muchly and bigly overinflated.

If the legal action is being bankrolled by their benny boy then it is a free shot at what to me looks like an hard target. But it would help budge duck away from being a target for their supporters for the mess under her watch but dangerously it would ramp up their delusions of victimisation.

[G B Young]

What a shambles Hearts are.

The real reason the likes of Budge, Levein, Ian Murray, Deans (and journo fans like Tom English who backed the wrong horse) are so bitter and refusing to accept the situation is because the bright new dawn they thought they were going to proudly oversee has slipped through their hands like sand thanks to several years of appalling decisions and they've pretty much ended up right back where they started - with a Championship-standard team and a hefty hole in their finances.

As I've said on another thread, any rational onlooker can see that the damage inflicted on Scottish football is down to a global pandemic, not because league reconstruction (which most clubs had no interest in) didn't happen. Hearts' increasingly desperate attempts to divert that narrative are an embarrassment at a time when many industries around the globe are facing far more damaging futures than a season in the Championship.

The way they clambered over their creditors to emerge from administration and presented it as some sort of heroic achievement always stuck in the craw and it's little wonder their current plight has attracted next to no sympathy from other clubs or their fans.

[Biggie]

They're absolute *****bags.....let them take it all the way.
****ing £8m !....what the actual **** ?
Tell them we're skint and offer them 10p in the pound.

[Speedy]

Their only friends left will be Partick, Stranraer and Inverness and that's about it. Probably lost Rangers today by stating they're not trying to reverse the declaration of champions. Robertson has probably now flushed the memory stick with the all the files re the SPFLs legal defence plans down the bog. 🤭

It was an odd statement. Titles and european places are fair but not relegation.

[007]

Different situation but here's a piece about compensation paid in Holland to a club denied promotion.

https://northerntimes.nl/dutch-football-association-to-give-leeuwarder-club-425000-euros-as-compensation-for-cancelled-season/

Being denied promotion isn't much different to being relegated. Both are being in the 2nd tier when you think you should be in the 1st.

Only €425k, they obviously don't have a restaurant with a castle view that earns them millions more in hospitality when they're in the top division. 😂

€425k is closer to a realistic sum. As I've mentioned before, the £500k parachute payment 11th would have got if they went down is more like I'd expect.

Looking forward to the Jambos that previously pointed to other Eurooean leagues for the precedents, now saying the Dutch compensation can't be compared to them.

[tamig]

The facts publicly known are that the spfl followed its rules and procedures and went out of its way to allow hearts the opportunity within those rules to get agreement on a outcome that suited them better. It appears that Budge’s remedy was worse than the problem so failed on the test of fairness to other clubs. It also appears that she seems to have made little or no effort to actually crystallise her idea into a proper proposal or to canvas support.


As a petition Hearts are acknowledging that they seek a remedy to which they have no right, and are instead seeking from the court a remedy on a discretionary or equitable basis. The problem is that such a remedy would damage others and so I can’t see a court being persuaded.

A use for a petition approach would be to overcome a lack or omission of an ability to deal with a matter. Nobile officium may be used where there is no legal rule adequately covering a given situation or where there is a legal rule governing a situation but its application would be unduly excessive, oppressive or burdensome. The spfl rule here is relegation and its burdensome nature is simply the competitive outcome that all sign up to and budge’s desired remedy is unduly burdensome to more clubs than their routine relegation at season’s end. It seems unlikely that even without Covid that relegation would have been avoided.

Also the figures being quoted seem fantasy even if they could win there would be no punitive element to damages regardless of how red her neck is for the mess of her own creation and the putative losses are muchly and bigly overinflated.

If the legal action is being bankrolled by their benny boy then it is a free shot at what to me looks like an hard target. But it would help budge duck away from being a target for their supporters for the mess under her watch but dangerously it would ramp up their delusions of victimisation.
Thats reassuring thanks. As for your last sentence, wouldn’t it be nice if the SPFL could maybe add some credence to those delusions of victimisation by meting out some robust disciplinary actions on our maroon chums?

[greenginger]

I don’t particularly like Neil Doncaster. I think he does a poor job of promoting and selling our game but he strikes me as someone who is probably a very good administrator.

I’ve had many a tantrum over the last few weeks with things not happening quick enough but I do suspect everything done to date will have been with a mind to cover his back in case there was a legal challenge, especially as he knows Rangers are desperate to pounce on any mistake he makes. I’m sure the SPFL know what they are doing and will be confident of a good case.

I just find it a bit surprising Hearts are apparently willing to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on what looks like a pretty flimsy case though.


Did they not not say they were getting their legals paid for by another anonymous donor ?

Certainly not Anderson , so is it Budge or FoH , or have reeled in another sucker. ?

[bawheid]

Perhaps we could start talking compensation once they’ve paid back all the creditors they stiffed the last time they found themselves in a financial hole. They’ve no shame.

[Waxy]

Really dont see they have any case. Take them all the way.

[jon paul jones]

Harshly maybe but not unfairly. The agreed way to end the season was the fairest way to do it.

They will lose a lot more money than us (relatively) due to being the worst team in their league. We weren't.

And actually now I consider it, we could have had a European qualification and run in Europe so who knows how much we've potentially missed out on?

Am I right in saying that St Johnstone game in hand was against the rangers 2012?

[Real Emerald]

Yes, Hearts are after £8m and Partick after £2m

Seriously

That’s £2m for each game they won, not bad!

[007]

The facts publicly known are that the spfl followed its rules and procedures and went out of its way to allow hearts the opportunity within those rules to get agreement on a outcome that suited them better. It appears that Budge’s remedy was worse than the problem so failed on the test of fairness to other clubs. It also appears that she seems to have made little or no effort to actually crystallise her idea into a proper proposal or to canvas support.


As a petition Hearts are acknowledging that they seek a remedy to which they have no right, and are instead seeking from the court a remedy on a discretionary or equitable basis. The problem is that such a remedy would damage others and so I can’t see a court being persuaded.

A use for a petition approach would be to overcome a lack or omission of an ability to deal with a matter. Nobile officium may be used where there is no legal rule adequately covering a given situation or where there is a legal rule governing a situation but its application would be unduly excessive, oppressive or burdensome. The spfl rule here is relegation and its burdensome nature is simply the competitive outcome that all sign up to and budge’s desired remedy is unduly burdensome to more clubs than their routine relegation at season’s end. It seems unlikely that even without Covid that relegation would have been avoided.

Also the figures being quoted seem fantasy even if they could win there would be no punitive element to damages regardless of how red her neck is for the mess of her own creation and the putative losses are muchly and bigly overinflated.

If the legal action is being bankrolled by their benny boy then it is a free shot at what to me looks like an hard target. But it would help budge duck away from being a target for their supporters for the mess under her watch but dangerously it would ramp up their delusions of victimisation.

Good post.

So if the court decides Hearts have been shafted, they won't allow Dundee United to be shafted instead so then compensation comes in to play. However if the court decides everything done by the SPFL was not untoward then no compensation, Hearts pay all costs and slink away with their tail between their legs.

I don't see why the SPFL wouldn't think the best option is to let the court decide. Hearts are looking for £8m, probably thinking the bigger the amount they claim for means they'll get a nice chunky out of court settlement. However, it is probably in the interest of the SPFL to let someone independent decide what would be a fair amount (should they lose), i.e. someone who isn't unhinged coming up with random big numbers.

[Irish_Steve]

Am I right in saying that St Johnstone game in hand was against the rangers 2012?

Yes, so what were the chances of them winning that - mind you, League was determined on average points per game so thats why they went above us

[Since452]

Yes, so what were the chances of them winning that - mind you, League was determined on average points per game so thats why they went above us

Every chance. Hamilton just went there and beat them. We can take our medicine though.

[jacomo]

Hearts had better hope that they win this case and win big because they are alienating a lot of clubs and supporters of those clubs. Don't be surprised to see some boycotting happening to them and not the other way around. They won't have many friends left in Scottish football no matter the outcome.


They’ve lost their minds. Budge needs to find a way to drop this nonsense soon because she’s in danger of taking Hearts to a very bad place.

[Jdawg]

I don’t know Scottish civil procedure, since I’m English qualified, but an interdict is not the term used for how the SPFL could attempt to get rid of this claim. They would do the Scottish equivalent of applying for summary judgement or for the claim to be struck out.

No. Interdict is to stop something (the new season). If the claim has no legal basis then the defencer will advance a preliminary plea (a legal argument rather than factual). If successful the court action is dismissed and the defender will get the court expenses.

[Jdawg]

What is the Scots law test for an interim interdict? Because in England trying to get an interim injunction is inconsistent with also saying at the same time you want compensation. One of the legs of the test for an interim injunction is that damages would not be an adequate remedy, hence a need to preserve the status quo.

Test

Prima facie case (at first sight) and balance of convenience.

[FilipinoHibs]

According to DR article on another thread, Hearts and PT have written to every SPFL club setting out their court action. No wonder many clubs are calling for their expulsion - same article. They have dug a big hole for themselves. If not careful they will be pushed in it and covered up.

[660]

According to DR article on another thread, Hearts and PT have written to every SPFL club setting their court action. No wonder many clubs are calling for their expulsion - same article. They have dug a big hole for themselves. If not careful they will be pushed in it and covered up.

sElF iNtErEsT

[HoboHarry]

According to DR article on another thread, Hearts and PT have written to every SPFL club setting out their court action. No wonder many clubs are calling for their expulsion - same article. They have dug a big hole for themselves. If not careful they will be pushed in it and covered up.

Are clubs really calling for them to be expelled? Hadn't seen that, which clubs?

[FilipinoHibs]

Are clubs really calling for them to be expelled? Hadn't seen that, which clubs?

Here we go:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistles-10million-pay-22210164#ICID=Android_DailyRecordNewsApp_AppShare

[cocteautwin]

Does anyone know who is funding the PTFC legal challenge? Is it likely to be J. Anderson?

[HoboHarry]

Here we go:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistles-10million-pay-22210164#ICID=Android_DailyRecordNewsApp_AppShare
Sevco can't afford to lose any money, hope they are leading the charge lol.....

[Waxy]

Kick them out the league.Brutal clubs to attempt this form of blackmail especially at this time.We’d be better off with Kelty and Brora.

[marinello59]

Here we go:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistles-10million-pay-22210164#ICID=Android_DailyRecordNewsApp_AppShare

Looks like warning shots being fired. I wonder if this will get anywhere near a court room.

[Onion]

Looks like warning shots being fired. I wonder if this will get anywhere near a court room.

Budge is in big trouble here. Playing in the SPFL is not a right, it's a privilege but she's treating the other members like cash cows through he courts. This is not going to end well for Hearts or Budge. She's been badly advised all along.

[MacGruber]

There simply has to be repercussions for Hearts and Partick - irrespective if they win or lose their case.
Expelling from the league sounds extreme however their action is extreme and potentially fatal to other clubs.

If their is no consequence to their action it is open season in future. They need to be made an example of.

£8 million is a nonesense. A parachute paymeng plus a little sweetner would be sensible - about £500,000 if they were getting £400,000 anyway. Maybe actually just the £400,000 they are due.

After that is settled - punishment. Banned from Europe for 5 years (no real affect to them anyway) banned from cup competition, kicked out the league or fined. Can put the fine anywhere between £400,000 to £8 million.

They would kick up a fuss at being fined. At that point the SPFL should say they don't have to pay but if they choose not to the SPFL reserve the right to throw them out. Don't want to of course but ... you know

[Brightside]

SFA / SPFL should simply tell them that if this continues their licence will be removed.

[theonlywayisup]

Here we go:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistles-10million-pay-22210164#ICID=Android_DailyRecordNewsApp_AppShare

Key text is copied below for those who don't like clicking on the DR website




One senior top-flight chief executive said last night: “The £10m claim from Hearts and Thistle is outrageous. If they were to be awarded that sum then there are a number of Premier League clubs who would risk going under.


“At a time when Scottish football is on its knees as a result of the pandemic they are effectively threatening to bury it.”


Another chairman added: “I’m not sure what the rule book says about expelling member clubs and I hope it wouldn’t get to that stage but it’s no wonder clubs are angry enough to be talking of the possibility.”


One CEO from the Championship added: “They are holding a gun to the head of Scottish football. Perhaps one of us may have to suggest to Doncaster they are kicked out of the league and Kelty Hearts and Brora are brought in.”

[Bostonhibby]

I'm liking it. Kelty Hearts, Like having Hearts in the league but without the creditors list.

Wonder if Kelty have a proper sized pitch to play on?

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[CropleyWasGod]

There simply has to be repercussions for Hearts and Partick - irrespective if they win or lose their case.
Expelling from the league sounds extreme however their action is extreme and potentially fatal to other clubs.

If their is no consequence to their action it is open season in future. They need to be made an example of.

£8 million is a nonesense. A parachute paymeng plus a little sweetner would be sensible - about £500,000 if they were getting £400,000 anyway. Maybe actually just the £400,000 they are due.

After that is settled - punishment. Banned from Europe for 5 years (no real affect to them anyway) banned from cup competition, kicked out the league or fined. Can put the fine anywhere between £400,000 to £8 million.

They would kick up a fuss at being fined. At that point the SPFL should say they don't have to pay but if they choose not to the SPFL reserve the right to throw them out. Don't want to of course but ... you know

Pretty sure a parachute payment isn't due to the team that finishes bottom. It's 500k,I think, to a team if they lose the play-off.

[calumhibee1]

Every chance. Hamilton just went there and beat them. We can take our medicine though.

I wouldn’t have gave St J much chance at Ibrox do reckon we would have finished above them easily enough. Fairs fair though and like you said, we can accept that.

[proud_and_green]

SFA / SPFL should simply tell them that if this continues their licence will be removed.

You would have to be pretty certain of your grounds for doing that. But sounds like a decent outcome!

[Caversham Green]

I wouldn’t have gave St J much chance at Ibrox do reckon we would have finished above them easily enough. Fairs fair though and like you said, we can accept that.

We were also due to play them at ER before the split. We should have been favourites to win that and that would pretty much have guaranteed top six.

[Skol]

They have hugely inflated the figure in the hope of getting what they think is realistic. Think £3m was their initial forecast and that was based on a normal and not Covid impacted season

[Ozyhibby]

They have hugely inflated the figure in the hope of getting what they think is realistic. Think £3m was their initial forecast and that was based on a normal and not Covid impacted season

There is no way they are getting money out the other clubs now unless the court orders it. They have upset just about everyone now.


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[FilipinoHibs]

Over 72% of the clubs with no direct benefit indicated against reconstruction. So clubs are already fed up with them. This court of session nonsense is going to harden attitudes. Thompson like any lawyer has led his client to believe they could win millions and threatening all the SPFL clubs directly. This is another PR disaster for Budge and Hearts. Some train wreck they have created.

[Skol]

The whole approach from budge is to through her weight about and bully people. The kind of senior manager that is toxic for any organisation.

If she had taken a different more conciliatory approach then I suspect there was a better chance of some compromise being reached.

[MrSmith]

There will inevitability be a phone call from the jumbos big brother in the west advising them to drop any action because it is impacting upon them and that is unacceptable.

Celtic will employ a top QC to countersue without breaking a sweat. And let’s face it, as benefactors go, Celtic are not short.

AB has created a monster that is way out of control now and it is really about to hit the skids.

[Numptie]

The SPFL's first argument will be that the Scottish Courts are not the place to hear a footballing dispute. The clubs have agreed to go to CAS to resolve disputes. They will then set out the process for relegating Hearts, with the agreement of the members.

[Iain G]

Over 72% of the clubs with no direct benefit indicated against reconstruction. So clubs are already fed up with them. This court of session nonsense is going to harden attitudes. Thompson like any lawyer has led his client to believe they could win millions and threatening all the SPFL clubs directly. This is another PR disaster for Budge and Hearts. Some train wreck they have created.

I did love this bit of the DR story:

"It’s understood the legal case is being led by David Thomson QC, who represented the Jags in an unsuccessful court bid against the SPL in 2004. He failed to persuade Lord Brodie to award an interdict that would’ve prevented their relegation."

Hearts keeping up their recent track record of backing another dead cert winner then :greengrin

[hibeerealist]

Does anyone know who is funding the PTFC legal challenge? Is it likely to be J. Anderson?

Apparently confirmed not JA however could very well be one of his mates (Co-Benny)!

[hibeerealist]

Pretty sure a parachute payment isn't due to the team that finishes bottom. It's 500k,I think, to a team if they lose the play-off.


Sure I read somewhere it is £300,000 to Hertz and a Prem club going down via playoffs would have been £500,000.

[Caversham Green]

They have hugely inflated the figure in the hope of getting what they think is realistic. Think £3m was their initial forecast and that was based on a normal and not Covid impacted season

The most logical way to justify their claim would be to look at what happened the last time they were relegated. What happened then was their turnover increased by half a million. They should be paying the SPFL a commission.


There is no way they are getting money out the other clubs now unless the court orders it. They have upset just about everyone now.


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I've said on the other thread that Ann Budge and the other directors won't be getting a very friendly welcome at any of the grounds she visits next season.

[Keith_M]

I wonder if many of the people who currently follow Hearts will switch their allegiance to Edinburgh City after Hearts have been expelled from the league.

I hope they expand their stadium a bit, so we can have a decent derby game at New Year.

[brog]

Every chance. Hamilton just went there and beat them. We can take our medicine though.

St J would still have been double figure odds to win at Ibrox. In addition 2 of their remaining 3 pre split games were away to us & Celtc. We was robbed, no doubt about it.

[Carheenlea]

With no parachute payment for second bottom being paid out it probably would be reasonable to award Hearts that sum given the circumstances.

They aren’t entitled to it, but I wouldn’t have any objection to it and think it would be a fair compromise.

[Skol]

What were the grounds on which Partick challenged relegation before. I don’t have any recollection of that.

[GonzoReturns]

With no parachute payment for second bottom being paid out it probably would be reasonable to award Hearts that sum given the circumstances.

They aren’t entitled to it, but I wouldn’t have any objection to it and think it would be a fair compromise.

And then fine them double for bringing the game into disrepute.

[Skol]

Actually was it related to stadium of the promoted team?

[hibsbollah]

The SPFL's first argument will be that the Scottish Courts are not the place to hear a footballing dispute. The clubs have agreed to go to CAS to resolve disputes. They will then set out the process for relegating Hearts, with the agreement of the members.

Expelling them, you mean :greengrin

Except this time we might be talking about the correct definition of the word. They can play their derbies against Bonnyrigg Rose from now on.

[Peevemor]

What were the grounds on which Partick challenged relegation before. I don’t have any recollection of that.

Was it maybe when Invernesss were promoted but their stadium wasn't finished. Instead of being kept in the 2nd tier (as had previously happened to Falkirk), they were allowed to groundshare at Pittodrie for half a season.

[Moulin Yarns]

Have hearts and Partick explained how a 13 team Premier league and 11 team division 1 will work?

Call their bluff and schedule all their matches in the second half of the season.

[Waxy]

Any payment made to hearts would give them an unfair advantage over their championship rivals next season also who have all had to play by the same rules.Kick them out

[Waxy]

What were the grounds on which Partick challenged relegation before. I don’t have any recollection of that.

They finished bottom and got relegated but tried to say ICT (who won the championship) didnt have a sufficient stadium for the premier league.
Is this the karma?

[CapitalGreen]

What were the grounds on which Partick challenged relegation before. I don’t have any recollection of that.

ICT won the old 1st division but the SPL’s minimum stadium criteria were preventing them being promoted. They had proposed stadium sharing with Aberdeen but Partick (who were set to be relegated) challenged this on the technicality that any ground share agreement had to be in place by the end of March. The SPL put a rule change to a vote which would see the minimum capacity required reduced but the vote didn’t pass meaning Partick were saved. Following this, it came to light that not all clubs had received full information prior to the vote so another was tabled. Partick went to court to seek court order blocking a second vote however the court said no. The second vote was held and the rule change was passed consigning Partick to relegation.

[FilipinoHibs]

They finished bottom and got relegated but tried to say ICT (who won the championship) didnt have a sufficient stadium for the premier league.
Is this the karma?

Seemingly Hearts put forward a motion to support ICT that killed PT.

[lucky]

How do they get to £8m compensation? Hibs have said their income is going half next season so the club with a smaller ground and smaller attendances want £8m is just baffling then again it’s Ann Budge who is claiming it.

[Cabbage East]

So if they lose the court case they still want this dosh !

They don't want it. They NEED it.

[Danderhall Hibs]

How do they get to £8m compensation? Hibs have said their income is going half next season so the club with a smaller ground and smaller attendances want £8m is just baffling then again it’s Ann Budge who is claiming it.

It’s just a guess and scaremongering mate - it started at £3m and has steadily increased in an attempt to crank up the pressure after the bribe didn’t work out how they intended.

Does anyone know if the other 40 clubs can counter claim if / when Hearts/Thistle lose the case?

[JohnMcM]

That woman just can't stop herself from making veiled threats can she? She says they haven't sought an interdict but reserve the right to. Jesus wept, is there no one around her to advise her of the suicidal stupidity of making statements like that.

Seriously, it seems she is heading for a full blown breakdown, poor woman. I hope someone helps her.

[Since452]

What were the grounds on which Partick challenged relegation before. I don’t have any recollection of that.

Stadium criteria. The same tactic that saved Aberdeen when they finished bottom and weren't relegated.

[malcolm]

If their petition fails it would be because the court would not interfere with or over rule the properly carried out rules of the spfl and the resulting outcome. The outcome would stand and so the squeal and bluster in the statement about an interdict seems just that all bluster. It seems to follow a pattern. Any grounds for a court to consider allowing an interdict would then seem that it would already have been weighed by the court and found inadequate.

The approach to this by budge seems to have been one driven by condescension and entitlement. If they have not talked down to other clubs they’ve not talked to them at all, together of course with threats. I can’t imagine how she could have gone about this in a worse way.

So also if they fail to get the court to over rule the properly applied spfl rules and so inflict bad outcomes on other clubs contrary to those rules, budge then expects compensation? ... As a negotiation tactic it seriously sucks. I suspect that the existence of a seemingly perpetually hand in the pocket benefactor has made them utterly reckless when it comes to cost and expense. Perhaps that this is not about foolish fantasy amounts of compensation but all about saving face. If she looks in the mirror soon I’d expect she may see egg on hers. What she’d never see in it is someone who has successfully run a football business.

[mal]

Stadium criteria. The same tactic that saved Aberdeen when they finished bottom and weren't relegated.

When we were relegated in 1998 Dundee were promoted. I have a vague recollection that Dundee's stadium wasn't compliant but we didn't mount a challenge to them coming up and they were given all the time they needed to sort things out.

[mal]

If their petition fails it would be because the court would not interfere with or over rule the properly carried out rules of the spfl and the resulting outcome. The outcome would stand and so the squeal and bluster in the statement about an interdict seems just that all bluster. It seems to follow a pattern. Any grounds for a court to consider allowing an interdict would then seem that it would already have been weighed by the court and found inadequate.

The approach to this by budge seems to have been one driven by condescension and entitlement. If they have not talked down to other clubs they’ve not talked to them at all, together of course with threats. I can’t imagine how she could have gone about this in a worse way.

So also if they fail to get the court to over rule the properly applied spfl rules and so inflict bad outcomes on other clubs contrary to those rules, budge then expects compensation? ... As a negotiation tactic it seriously sucks. I suspect that the existence of a seemingly perpetually hand in the pocket benefactor has made them utterly reckless when it comes to cost and expense. Perhaps that this is not about foolish fantasy amounts of compensation but all about saving face. If she looks in the mirror soon I’d expect she may see egg on hers. What she’d never see in it is someone who has successfully run a football business.

Maybe they were going belly up anyway and this way they get to blame the other clubs instead of taking responsibility themselves, and the Jambo fans don't turn on the folk mismanaging their club?

[Since452]

That woman just can't stop herself from making veiled threats can she? She says they haven't sought an interdict but reserve the right to. Jesus wept, is there no one around her to advise her of the suicidal stupidity of making statements like that.

Seriously, it seems she is heading for a full blown breakdown, poor woman. I hope someone helps her.

She's tried to bully her way out of this mess since day one

[FilipinoHibs]

When we were relegated in 1998 Dundee were promoted. I have a vague recollection that Dundee's stadium wasn't compliant but we didn't mount a challenge to them coming up and they were given all the time they needed to sort things out.

I believe that is called sporting integrity .

[Bostonhibby]

If their petition fails it would be because the court would not interfere with or over rule the properly carried out rules of the spfl and the resulting outcome. The outcome would stand and so the squeal and bluster in the statement about an interdict seems just that all bluster. It seems to follow a pattern. Any grounds for a court to consider allowing an interdict would then seem that it would already have been weighed by the court and found inadequate.

The approach to this by budge seems to have been one driven by condescension and entitlement. If they have not talked down to other clubs they’ve not talked to them at all, together of course with threats. I can’t imagine how she could have gone about this in a worse way.

So also if they fail to get the court to over rule the properly applied spfl rules and so inflict bad outcomes on other clubs contrary to those rules, budge then expects compensation? ... As a negotiation tactic it seriously sucks. I suspect that the existence of a seemingly perpetually hand in the pocket benefactor has made them utterly reckless when it comes to cost and expense. Perhaps that this is not about foolish fantasy amounts of compensation but all about saving face. If she looks in the mirror soon I’d expect she may see egg on hers. What she’d never see in it is someone who has successfully run a football business.It's entirely about saving face, look at her legacy when the season ended.

What value have they got for all that money? An already dubious reputation from the bumping of hundreds of creditors has hardly improved. Creating a siege mentality and throwing even more of other folks money at their current plight looks desperate.

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