Jambos Legal Challenge

[greenginger]

So Deans was taken aback that only 16 of the 42 clubs voted in favour and he had passed on the information given to him in good faith.

The information must have come from Budge as club chairman were not going to discuss their voting intention with any supporter or media. As for chairmen saying they’ll vote one way then vote the other, I think it more than likely Budge was told they were considering the proposal just to get the daft old bird off the phone.

[greenpaper55]

I keep seeing the word "prejudice" in his and other statements from the hearts, in other words all the other clubs and the SPFL board had it in for them ! No ya ...... it was a pandemic that caused the whole thing.

[Dalianwanda]

"If everyone is acting in self interest and clubs have chosen to allow this way of doing things to fester - then you really can't complain if you become the loser." Poster talking about Dundee United fans, Is this not exactly what THEY are doing?

[Hibs Class]

You are not missing much, but here you go:

"Leslie Deans has asked me to post his final comments on jkb due to the backlash and sustained criticism posted by fellow members when the information, received and posted in good faith, has turned out to be incorrect. This basically comes down to the underhand tactics adopted by chairman when saying they’ll act one way but in fact act the complete opposite. There is no legislation that covers this. We all have the clubs best interests at heart, yet some of the abuse levelled at certain posters has left a bad taste in the mouth when all one is trying to do is keep members informed of proceedings. As follows:-


I have reluctantly decided to refrain from making further detailed comment on Kickback about the ongoing litigation/arbitration. Certain posters clearly object to your posting my remarks and I regard their personal abuse as offensive. Whilst I understand their frustration that the anticipated reconstruction never got off the ground ,the information provided to me was passed on in good faith. I was not the only one taken aback by the news that only 16 out of 42 clubs supported this.
Like others of my generation, my mastery of technology is not the best so thank you for lodging my comments. I should also congratulate certain posters-- David McCaig, Footbalfirst, Ethan Hunt, Hibsarepants come to mind amongst others, -- who continue to offer incisive and insightful comment on complex issues
I stated publicly on BBC radio that I believed we had a good case. David Thomson QC explained clearly in his opinion on Patrick Thistle 's website that the motion of April 10 had failed. He was clear in his view of the Dundee vote.
Additionally the SPFL executive induced its members to vote in a certain way by virtue of its misrepresentation and withholding of relevant information in its advice paper of April 8.
What follows is whether Hearts and PT suffered unfair prejudice as defined in the Companies Act. I believe they did. To change the rules from a 38 to a 30 game season part way through is inherently unfair if it leads to relegation , as admitted by at least one SPFL director.
The prejudice is the major loss of income suffered by being in a lower and shortened league.
With unfair prejudice established I anticipate the tribunal should find in favour of Hearts and PT.
The tribunal should comprise 3 experienced independent lawyers and I have no qualms or concerns that we will get a fair hearing. Any manifest legal errors will mean it's referred back to Lord Clark.
Others have said, rightly in my opinion, that there will be bad blood between clubs going forward. I hope in the fullness of time others might recognise that we fought for what is right and if changes are then made as a result , there could be a major benefit to football as a whole."

In summary, I’m a nobody who thought I was a somebody but it turns out I actually was a nobody.

[Kato]

I have reluctantly decided to refrain from making further detailed comment...

...cue yards of guff...

[Irish_Steve]

In summary, I’m a nobody who thought I was a somebody but it turns out I actually was a nobody.

Lots of them are still lapping up LD`s comments although said comments are nearly all incorrect. One poster did call him a drama queen so I expect him to be punted soon.

10-2 Leslie, 10-2

[Rumble de Thump]

They've spent months trying to convince everyone that the rules were changed because if they managed to convince enough people then maybe they'd gain an unfair advantage. It's gone on so long that plenty of them have convinced themselves. They can't deal with the reality. The rules weren't changed. They were applied.

I just hope that they continue to be devoted to Queen Ann and she continues to steer them from one disaster to another.

[hibeerealist]

Just another roaster from roaster central, the world is not interested in the slightest

[truehibernian]

...cue yards of guff...

Or it could be that his previous public domain comments could be proved defamatory :cb

His claiming to be of a generation that cannot master 'technology' :faf: he's an estate agent where most transactions and communications are online.........is he really saying he cannot register on a forum and post :greengrin

[Irish_Steve]

Am I incorrect in thinking that the Judge said it was a football matter, not a Company Law matter - surely Leslie didn`t get that wrong as well?

[AltheHibby]

You are not missing much, but here you go:

"Leslie Deans ...is ... a whole."

When my wife was a private English tutor she got a letter supposedly from the governess of an adult male with learning difficulties who needed to improve his English. The letter had the same tone as this latest rubbish, and said that he was to be beaten with a cane if he misbehaved. (She binned him rapidly)

Not that I am alleging that they are the same, but this guy turned out to be writing the letters himself and was a doctor at a local hospital! Oh yes, and he was a pervert who went from tutor to tutor trying to get them to meet his real 'needs'. However, the whiny, self-serving style is similar

[Greenworld]

Apologies if it's already been posted, but what happened regarding the costs of last weeks legal case? Did each side pay their own costs?

EZHearts paid there own and 50% of the spfl's costs

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[malcolm]

‘ With unfair prejudice established I anticipate the tribunal should find in favour of Hearts and PT.
The tribunal should comprise 3 experienced independent lawyers and I have no qualms or concerns that we will get a fair hearing. With unfair prejudice established I anticipate the tribunal should find in favour of Hearts and PT.
The tribunal should comprise 3 experienced independent lawyers and I have no qualms or concerns that we will get a fair hearing. Any manifest legal errors will mean it's referred back to Lord Clark. ’

Thankfully there has only been detriment in the least unfair way and given that experienced lawyers will be in charge of the arbitration we can be sure that they won’t make any manifestly obvious legal errors...oh wait is Leslie Deans not an experienced lawyer?

[HoboHarry]

When is the arbitration going to be over so we can be done with this ****show?

[Skol]

How have Hearts managed to gaslight people into believing that they have been treated harshly? They're not the only team that could have improved their league position. If they and Partick are the only teams that receive compensation for what they could have achieved then they've been given preferential treatment and their special pleading has been successful.

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.

[Ozyhibby]

When is the arbitration going to be over so we can be done with this ****show?

We won’t know until the result is announced. Everything from here on in is supposed to be private. They could have been sitting today for all we know and it will be done by Friday.


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[HoboHarry]

We won’t know until the result is announced. Everything from here on in is supposed to be private.


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Oh fair enough. So has the actual process actually started and have the people making the judgement been appointed yet? Or is that unknown at this point?

Edit - I saw your last comments too late....

[Peevemor]

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.Bad luck - maybe. Unfair - no.

[Springbank]

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.

Hahaaa

Surrrrrrrre

EVERY team that's in 12th place should ALWAYS be paid 3 times what the tournament winners receive.....

And they should NEVER be relegated for finishing 12th, with a total of 4 wins in the past however many months & years

Maroon tinted specs are the issue, not green ones!

[Kato]

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.

Which element is unfair?

[Iggy Pope]

Pkaying behind closed doors with strict bii-security neasures and playing in front of bray fans are two entirely different things.

If your srnse of taste means you can't diffentiate the difference between apples and oears you need to book a test.😉

Post of the week. Everyone else just give up.

[grunt]

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.
That would be me then. They were bottom when the music stopped. Thus relegated.

[Skol]

Which element is unfair?

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim

[Eyrie]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim

I agree that it was unfair on Hearts but that was the least unfair option available.

Any alternative has a worse effect on other teams.

[Peevemor]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claimI still don't see how it's unfair.

We could likewise argue that, far from finishing 7th, we might have been able to win a European place.

That 3 promoted clubs are required to spend money on legal fees is unfair.

[Kato]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.







Taking the "green tinted spectacles" which I don't wear off for a second, I think you are getting "unfair" mixed up with "unlucky".

Given all the circumstances; time available, timing, tv contracts and the rules already in place which every club agreed to, wouldn't you agree?


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[matty_f]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim
I think it was unfair, but no more unfair than Hibs being denied a crack at Europe or top 6, or Motherwell being unable to push for a rare second place finish, or The Rangers that elusive first ever title.

The whole situation was unfair, not not more so on Hearts than on the others.

[Dashing Bob S]

I agree that it was unfair on Hearts but that was the least unfair option available.

Any alternative has a worse effect on other teams.

A global pandemic was ‘unfair’ on the world. It was ‘unfair’ on football.

The season finishing early was ‘unfair’ on all clubs and their fans. Hearts were treated no more or less ‘unfairly’ than any other club. They were simply the poorest club in the league when the season was called to a premature end.

Tough titty

[eezyrider]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim

No, anyone looking at this objectively will realise it's unfair that they were denied the chance to see out the season and try to do something to avoid relegation.

That doesn't mean we also understand that Covid-19 is unfair, and that decisive decisions sometimes mean there will be losers.

EZ

[Kato]

No, anyone looking at this objectively will realise it's unfair that they were denied the chance to see out the season and try to do something to avoid relegation.

That doesn't mean we also understand that Covid-19 is unfair, and that decisive decisions sometimes mean there will be losers.

EZ

Maybe they should take Covid-19 to court.

[147lothian]

With the fixtures out, and the sky games picked, that's reconstruction dead in the water IMO the only thing they have left to go for is compensation or nothing, a risky strategy because I recon it will backfire and end up costing them, they are not unique in losing money because of games being cancelled, relegation is what happens when your bottom of the pack at the end of the season.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Maybe they should take Covid-19 to court.

fgs don't put ideas in their heads

[007]

In summary, I've called it wrong on everything so far but this is how the arbitration tribunal will play out.

He wants to get it wrong one last time.

[grunt]

... but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!
That's how football leagues work. Bottom team goes down. Nothing unfair about it.

[bod]

i think it was unfair on the bottom teams but the members voted so i just have to accept it

[Lago]

Oh fair enough. So has the actual process actually started and have the people making the judgement been appointed yet? Or is that unknown at this point?

Edit - I saw your last comments too late....
Starting next week I've read, don't ask where it could have been twitter or some other media.

[Pete]

If anyone cannot see there is an element of unfairness in the outcome for Hearts, they need to take their green tinted spectacles off.

I actually agree but after all of this I simply don't care.

Hope we're able to give them an absolute horseing in the cup. Arrogant *******s

[Lago]

i think it was unfair on the bottom teams but the members voted so i just have to accept it
Absolutely correct, there was a process which was explained & agreed by all the clubs. They would vote on a proposal to end the league on a points per game basis. All clubs agreed to accept the outcome. Then it becomes a PR disaster, Dundee no then claim vote lost in the either, change their vote to yes, then Doncaster phones Dons chairman to tell him his vote doesn't matter proposal has passed. We then have ICT accusing Dundee of going back on a promised no vote, the SPFL agree they found Dundee vote in a spam folder, really, & they did vote no but changed it after speaking to Doncaster, he explains that a no vote can be changed to a yes, but not vice a versa.
All this did was give Hearts, rangers etc every excuse to shout foul, corruption, we was robbed & the football World at large looked on in amusement.
A unnecessary PR cock up.

[Onion]

Just don't see how we can have Hearts remain in the Prem - effectively with no penalty - and still have Hibs losing a place and £125k in prize money. That means at the end of all this, Hearts will have lost out less from the season being called than Hibs. That's crazy.

Bottom line, you cannot pick and choose which bits of the normal process you want to exercise. Hearts get back into the Prem, Caltic cannot win the league, Hibs go back into 6th, flip a coin for Europe.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/dd40c835d793558d995db8f4ab260e28.plist


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[Heisenberg]

Hearts fans will be getting excited again as the Belgians have basically decided to void their league.

[WhileTheChief..]

Harsh maybe but not unfair.

I thought that for something to be unfair there needs to be element of foul play? There wasn’t in this case.

[Ozyhibby]

The arbitration panel have no interest in what’s fair and what’s not. Only what is legal and in the rules of the game. If the spfl have done everything by the book then they will win the case. If they haven’t then Hearts have a chance of winning. This is all about how the vote was handled.


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[Peevemor]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/dd40c835d793558d995db8f4ab260e28.plist


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkFrom what I can gather the problem is procedural and the relegation can still be confirmed by a vote on Friday.

[Kato]

Harsh maybe but not unfair.

I thought that for something to be unfair there needs to be element of foul play? There wasn’t in this case.Exactly, harsh/unlucky.

I asked Skol which element was unfair. Still to get a proper answer.

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[Onion]

The arbitration panel have no interest in what’s fair and what’s not. Only what is legal and in the rules of the game. If the spfl have done everything by the book then they will win the case. If they haven’t then Hearts have a chance of winning. This is all about how the vote was handled.


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If the vote is deemed by the Arbitration panel to be compromised or "illegal", what's to stop them just ordering a fresh vote ? If the season gets called, then Hearts lose. If they vote not to end the season, what then ?

[jacomo]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim


It’s harsh, for sure. If Hearts hadn’t been such sore losers I would have sympathy for them.

But it’s not unfair. Unfair suggests Hearts were singled out for worse treatment than anyone else. They were not. They were 12th when the league finished and so they were relegated.

Unfair is clubs pretending to be solvent when they are not, dodging the rules and making other clubs suffer instead. Unfair is some clubs being thrown out of cup competitions for minor player registration infringements, while others escape punishment for doing the same.

These are awful circumstances in which to be relegated from the top flight. Hearts will rue the fact they didn’t get the chance to climb out of trouble. But it is not unfair.

[tamig]

"If everyone is acting in self interest and clubs have chosen to allow this way of doing things to fester - then you really can't complain if you become the loser." Poster talking about Dundee United fans, Is this not exactly what THEY are doing?

Irony is an invisible trait in the maroon asylum.

[Andy74]

If the vote is deemed by the Arbitration panel to be compromised or "illegal", what's to stop them just ordering a fresh vote ? If the season gets called, then Hearts lose. If they vote not to end the season, what then ?

It isn’t an option Hearts have asked for so won’t be happening either way.

[Ozyhibby]

If the vote is deemed by the Arbitration panel to be compromised or "illegal", what's to stop them just ordering a fresh vote ? If the season gets called, then Hearts lose. If they vote not to end the season, what then ?

I would think that is what they would do.
If I was to guess what will happen, I think the tribunal will criticise the SPFL about the procedures, practices and communication around the vote but will say that there was nothing unlawful in it and Hearts will lose their case.


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[Irish_Steve]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/dd40c835d793558d995db8f4ab260e28.plist


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They are whipping themselves up into a frenzy over this on Brokeback. Funny, when French decision to relegate teams was upheld, this had no bearing on what was happening to Hearts according to them. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[007]

Hearts fans will be getting excited again as the Belgians have basically decided to void their league.

No doubt have switched from it being irrelevant yesterday to the situation here to it now being highly relevant.

[mal]

No green-tinted glasses here. Hearts were treated absolutely fairly, exactly the same as every other team. They're demanding to be unfairly favoured. As for not having the opportunity to play their last 8 games, they had 30 games not to be bottom and they failed. They even had one game where it was clear that a premature ending to the season was imminent and they failed there too.

[007]

It’s harsh, for sure. If Hearts hadn’t been such sore losers I would have sympathy for them.

But it’s not unfair. Unfair suggests Hearts were singled out for worse treatment than anyone else. They were not. They were 12th when the league finished and so they were relegated.

Unfair is clubs pretending to be solvent when they are not, dodging the rules and making other clubs suffer instead. Unfair is some clubs being thrown out of cup competitions for minor player registration infringements, while others escape punishment for doing the same.

These are awful circumstances in which to be relegated from the top flight. Hearts will rue the fact they didn’t get the chance to climb out of trouble. But it is not unfair.

Saved me posting something similar.

Think it was Inverness that lost out in the League Cup when Hearts were only penalised 2 points instead of 3 for breaching the rules.

I suppose you could say they did get a chance, albeit not all the remaining games, but blew it against St Mirren. As we know, there was at least 1 fan that realised whoever was bottom after that match could end up being relegated.😀

[Billy Whizz]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/dd40c835d793558d995db8f4ab260e28.plist


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Why is it always the BBC that publish this info, France, Belgium etc

[Slateford Hibee]

Do you
a.) reward failure (don't relegate PT, hmfc).
b.) punish success (don't promote DU, RR & CR).
c.) spoil the product (change the number of teams in the top league, create a boring end to the season).

Option A is the least unfair. If you don't have a seat when the music stops you are out.

[Sammy7nil]

The fact that they might have been able to avoid relegation.

By no means a certainty but possible. Anyone who denies that is not looking at this objectively.

many others including hibs could make similar claims, but Hearts do find themselves in a lower league as a result which is a bigger impact than us dropping a place in the league and the possible european slot we may have got !!!!

The problem that Hearts dont see is that if they get their way, others, like Dundee United, are treated unfairly.

Bottom line is whichever way you turn someone can make that claim

I would say unfortunate rather than unfair. The rules allow for the season to be ended early unfortunately Hearts were bottom when it was called. Like a game of musical chairs it is not unfair when you lose unlucky may be not unfair.

[Bostonhibby]

They are whipping themselves up into a frenzy over this on Brokeback. Funny, when French decision to relegate teams was upheld, this had no bearing on what was happening to Hearts according to them. There are none so blind as those who will not see.So are they thinking of joining the Belgian League now? I know they think they can virtually pick their league, but do they know they can't spend maroon pounds in the land of the Walloons?

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[CropleyWasGod]

So are they thinking of joining the Belgian League now? I know they think they can virtually pick their league, but do they know they can't spend maroon pounds in the land of the Walloons?

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They might be well suited to the land of the Phlegms.

[CraigHibee]

The spam farts finished bottom of the league as they are *****.

Absolutely no sympathy from me, bottom of the league but their fans still think they're world beaters

[bawheid]

It would be really funny if they spent loads of money and were still crap next year. I would laugh lots. HOOF!

[Eyrie]

I would say unfortunate rather than unfair. The rules allow for the season to be ended early unfortunately Hearts were bottom when it was called. Like a game of musical chairs it is not unfair when you lose unlucky may be not unfair.

I said "unfair" earlier but "unfortunate" is the correct term.

[Kato]

It would be really funny if they spent loads of money and were still crap next year. I would laugh lots. HOOF!Sadly, Levien has left.

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[bawheid]

Sadly, Levien has left.

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Ask Dundee United fans what it was like watching their team under Neilson. In fact, ask Hearts fans!

[Bostonhibby]

They might be well suited to the land of the Phlegms.For absolutely no reason at all

https://vimeo.com/99663693

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[majorhibs]

Hahaaa

Surrrrrrrre

EVERY team that's in 12th place should ALWAYS be paid 3 times what the tournament winners receive.....

And they should NEVER be relegated for finishing 12th, with a total of 4 wins in the past however many months & years

Maroon tinted specs are the issue, not green ones!

I’m liking this post!

[majorhibs]

I actually agree but after all of this I simply don't care.

Hope we're able to give them an absolute horseing in the cup. Arrogant *******s

My type of reply!

[TheMrSandiego]

Do you
a.) reward failure (don't relegate PT, hmfc).
b.) punish success (don't promote DU, RR & CR).
c.) spoil the product (change the number of teams in the top league, create a boring end to the season).

Option A is the least unfair. If you don't have a seat when the music stops you are out.

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.

[matty_f]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.
Kelty and Brora were denied a chance of promotion because it was impossible to play the play off in a reasonable time - they still don’t know when they can play football. Neither were entitled to go up automatically. The proposal for reconstruction, as well as promoting those two teams, would have placed teams in the current first division in the new lowest tier, which brings the risk of being relegated from the league set up.
It’s hardly surprising turkeys didn’t vote for Christmas, regardless of bus journeys.

Brechin’s survival is the flip side - they stayed up on a practicality, the inability to play the play off (which they might have won, that league doesn’t feature automatic relegation). Relegating Brechin from a league without automatic relegation would surely have been more unfair than what happened, given that neither Kelty nor Brora were entitled to automatic promotion (in fact, at least one of them definitely wouldn’t have been promoted).

Reconstruction would inarguably have spoiled the product. A split halfway through the season effectively creates a two tier top flight, and while it could be argued that the top 6/bottom 6 does the same, the point at which it splits significantly lessens the impact.

There’s also the financial impact and the significant drop in the competitiveness of the league. Anyone championing a system that splits halfway through the season to a top 6/bottom 8 format is kidding themselves on if they think that’s an improvement on what we currently have.

The shambles, as it’s being labelled, is not down to the SPFL who have acted in the best interests of its members in as much as they’ve had no fair and reasonable solution to choose, so have taken the least unfair option available to them.

They have had to consider UEFA guidelines (titles, relegations, European places to be decided on sporting merit, timescales for completing competitions) and deal with the very real fact that the inability to play competitive football severely restricts their options.

No, the shambles os’s because certain clubs have refused to abide by the rules they signed up to, have refused to acknowledge the limitations on the options available, and who have tried to drag everyone else down because they’re petulant, arrogant, entitled pricks.

[007]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.

A) Brechin situation was different because bottom place doesn't automatically go down. Scrapping playoffs was the right thing to do as we would've had to then delay the restart for 6 matches to be played 1st. As it is, we have scrapped the January shut down and are praying for a mild winter because there is next to no room to rescheduled matches. There is no room to fit in the 2019/2020 playoff matches.

B) Brora and Kelty can perhaps consider themselves unlucky not to have a crack at promotion however playoffs would have involved 4 matches and as said above, there isn't room to fit in playoffs. Bonnyrigg Rose were 6 points behind Kelty with a game in hand so I wouldn't describe that as Kelty romping the league.

C) The game here would be no more of a laughing stock than the other European leagues, which have had court cases, if it hadn't been for Rangers trying to get rid of the SPFL board with their damp squib of a dossier because they're still upset about being made to restart at the 4th tier and because of the way Hearts and Hearts people have behaved.

In what way was the game a laughing stocking and a shambles pre-covid and how have the SPFL spoiled the product? Biggest TV deal ever, crowds at the highest levels for decades, easily the highest crowds per capita of any European country.

[Greenworld]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.Utter Rubbish the only laughing stock is hearts.
They single handedly have dragged football into the gutter.
Hearts are the ones that need punished further expulsion from scottish football would be appropriate.

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[Victor]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200708/dd40c835d793558d995db8f4ab260e28.plist


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hearts are now relying on Belgium? Belgium? They are not even a real country, if my memory serves me right, they were originally part of Spain. They they are now the EU equivalent of Washington DC which is why the EU HQ and NATO are based there. The only good things to come out of Belgium are Tin Tin and Hercules Poirot, (both fictional, like Hearts attempts to portray themselves as a real team) and Jacques Brel, who was real and brilliant (unlike Hearts).


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[Waxy]

10 point deduction for hearts and Partick for this would be fair.

[Peevemor]

In the Belgian thing, league 1A was stopped immediately and Waasland were relegated despite it being possible (like Hearts) for them to avoid it. However, league 1B wasn't stopped immediately, with the decision taken to allow another play-off match to decide relegation.

It's the difference in treatment between the 2 leagues that has prompted the decision, which could still be overturned by a vote tomorrow.

In any case it's totally different to HMFC/PT's argument.

[Kato]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.What would you have done to make it less of "a shambles"? It seems to me that "the shambles" part is down the protracted obstruction of the clubs vote to end the League.

What part is "unfair"? No one is saying its ideal but where have Hearts been dealt with unfairly?

The use of the word without any aspects of unfairness actually being described in the last few posts is beginning to echo Sportsound.


What would have been "fairer"?

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[Jpdhfc]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.

Kelty did not romp there league though 6 pts ahead of Bonnyrigg who had a game in hand with 5 games to play

[brog]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.

LTYF! Always wanted to say that!

[Since452]

10 point deduction for hearts and Partick for this would be fair.

Deduct Partick 20 for being foolish enough to be Hearts wee lapdog

[Joe6-2]

Hearts are now relying on Belgium? Belgium? They are not even a real country, if my memory serves me right, they were originally part of Spain. They they are now the EU equivalent of Washington DC which is why the EU HQ and NATO are based there. The only good things to come out of Belgium are Tin Tin and Hercules Poirot, (both fictional, like Hearts attempts to portray themselves as a real team) and Jacques Brel, who was real and brilliant (unlike Hearts).


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Belgium were part of the Netherlands until 1830

[Danderhall Hibs]

Kelty did not romp there league though 6 pts ahead of Bonnyrigg who had a game in hand with 5 games to play

And Kelty still had to go to Bonnyrigg - that 6 point “romp” could easily have turned into a goal difference diferentiator.

The Lowland League must be a shambles as well.

[Heisenberg]

Kelty and Brora have been the least hard done by in all of this. They were absolute ****ing chancers trying to act the victim and snake their way into the league setup on the back of the virus.

[NC1875]

And Kelty still had to go to Bonnyrigg - that 6 point “romp” could easily have turned into a goal difference diferentiator.

The Lowland League must be a shambles as well.

Sure most of Bonnyriggs remaining games were at home too. They were more likely to finish top than Hearts were to avoid relegation imo.

[04Sauzee]

Dave Mcormack of Aberdeen tweets

Next week we’ll update Dons fans on the Club’s cashflow projections for Season 20/21. An example of the reality we face is an income loss of £400,000 with the Rangers game being played behind closed doors. Determined to avoid staff redundancies and entertain our fans! Stand Free!

[Peevemor]

Dave Mcormack of Aberdeen tweets

Next week we’ll update Dons fans on the Club’s cashflow projections for Season 20/21. An example of the reality we face is an income loss of £400,000 with the Rangers game being played behind closed doors. Determined to avoid staff redundancies and entertain our fans! Stand Free!

Seems a huge amount for one match.

[Irish_Steve]

Seems a huge amount for one match.

He`s probably factoring in TV money too??

[Peevemor]

He`s probably factoring in TV money too??

The TV money doesn't change, behind closed doors or otherwise.

[Danderhall Hibs]

He`s probably factoring in TV money too??

They’re still getting paid that though?

[oneone73]

He`s probably factoring in TV money too??

They're not losing TV money though?

[nonshinyfinish]

Seems a huge amount for one match.

Yeah, I don't know exactly how many STs they've sold, but assuming 8k, that leaves 12k tickets that they now can't sell. To get to £400k they'd need to be sold at an average of £33. Seems very unlikely once you account for concessions.

They would lose some additional money from catering, but £400k seems high.

[Keith_M]

For absolutely no reason at all

https://vimeo.com/99663693

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My wife is innocently sitting at her Home Office, trying to do her work and was the victim of sexual harassment just after the Sexy Assistant appeared in the video.

I also now have a black eye.

I'm blaming you for both of these (obviously unrelated) events.

[Sammy7nil]

Kelty and Brora were denied a chance of promotion because it was impossible to play the play off in a reasonable time - they still don’t know when they can play football. Neither were entitled to go up automatically. The proposal for reconstruction, as well as promoting those two teams, would have placed teams in the current first division in the new lowest tier, which brings the risk of being relegated from the league set up.
It’s hardly surprising turkeys didn’t vote for Christmas, regardless of bus journeys.

Brechin’s survival is the flip side - they stayed up on a practicality, the inability to play the play off (which they might have won, that league doesn’t feature automatic relegation). Relegating Brechin from a league without automatic relegation would surely have been more unfair than what happened, given that neither Kelty nor Brora were entitled to automatic promotion (in fact, at least one of them definitely wouldn’t have been promoted).

Reconstruction would inarguably have spoiled the product. A split halfway through the season effectively creates a two tier top flight, and while it could be argued that the top 6/bottom 6 does the same, the point at which it splits significantly lessens the impact.

There’s also the financial impact and the significant drop in the competitiveness of the league. Anyone championing a system that splits halfway through the season to a top 6/bottom 8 format is kidding themselves on if they think that’s an improvement on what we currently have.

The shambles, as it’s being labelled, is not down to the SPFL who have acted in the best interests of its members in as much as they’ve had no fair and reasonable solution to choose, so have taken the least unfair option available to them.

They have had to consider UEFA guidelines (titles, relegations, European places to be decided on sporting merit, timescales for completing competitions) and deal with the very real fact that the inability to play competitive football severely restricts their options.

No, the shambles os’s because certain clubs have refused to abide by the rules they signed up to, have refused to acknowledge the limitations on the options available, and who have tried to drag everyone else down because they’re petulant, arrogant, entitled pricks.

:aok:

[Juniper Greens]

Aberdeen have a massive hospitality suite. That will be packed out when sevco visit

[nonshinyfinish]

Aberdeen have a massive hospitality suite. That will be packed out when sevco visit

Ah, didn't think of hospitality.

[Wakeyhibee]

Seems a huge amount for one match.

20k @ £15 ave. Corporate and Catering (theirs is in house) doesn't sound too far away. He has said income theres obviously less expenditure too, staff, stewarding/policing.

[Bostonhibby]

My wife is innocently sitting at her Home Office, trying to do her work and was the victim of sexual harassment just after the Sexy Assistant appeared in the video.

I also now have a black eye.

I'm blaming you for both of these (obviously unrelated) events.I don't accept that at all, can we resolve this at arbitration please?
I want to nominate my dentist and estate agent to hear it.

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[greenginger]

Sure most of Bonnyriggs remaining games were at home too. They were more likely to finish top than Hearts were to avoid relegation imo.

They might have won the Lowland league but they would still have to beat Brora then Brechin to go up.

I wonder if a 12 12 10 10 set up was ever proposed at the Budge run reconstruction think tank.

It would have cured a lot of the unlucky/unfair outcomes apart from Budges club’s expulsion and was probably forbidden from discussion.

[Sammy7nil]

20k @ £15 ave. Corporate and Catering (theirs is in house) doesn't sound too far away. He has said income theres obviously less expenditure too, staff, stewarding/policing.

I assume they have sold season tickets ? So not 20,000 but average will be more than £15 I would imagine the great unwashed pay £30 a ticket?

He is making Hearts £8 million loss seem realistic :greengrin

[Keith_M]

I don't accept that at all, can we resolve this at arbitration please?
I want to nominate my dentist and estate agent to hear it.

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Nah, I think the European Court Of Human Rights would be the most appropriate.

We want £10M compensation between us.

[Peevemor]

Aberdeen have a massive hospitality suite. That will be packed out when sevco visit

Even 1000 people (which is huge) at £100 per head is "only" £100k.

Add on 6k (being generous) PATG fans at say £30 - that's £180k.

We're still miles away from £400k

[Bostonhibby]

Nah, I think the European Court Of Human Rights would be the most appropriate.

We want £10M compensation between us.You need a different defendant, I can feel an administration event coming on

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[Peevemor]

20k @ £15 ave. Corporate and Catering (theirs is in house) doesn't sound too far away. He has said income theres obviously less expenditure too, staff, stewarding/policing.

Their home attendances against the OF last season were.

Celtic 15,079
Rangers 14,790
Celtic 14,135

https://www.afc.co.uk/matches/fixtures-results/

[hibeerealist]

The SPFL have actually managed to do all of the above.

a. Brechin have been rewarded for being far and away the worst team in the league system and surviving. Ironicly it was their chairman who came up with the orginal proposal to end the season too.

b. Both Kelty and Broara romped their respective leagues but got got shafted out of the chance of promotion. One club even admitting to voting down reconstruction as they didnt fancy the bus trip up north to play Broara!!!

c. Spoil the product? Are you actually serious with that? The game is now an even bigger laughing stock than it was pre-covid which is mental as we were a shambles then too.

As ive said before, if it wasnt for Hearts going down here surely most Hibs fans would agree none of this is fair. We have ended up rooting for the best of a bunch of shocking options purely to laugh at Hearts (again) but in truth the whole thing has been a shambles. Please try and not lose sight of that.

A lot of guys replying to this you are clearly in a very small minority with your opinions OR a yam fud LTYF

[Keith_M]

I assume they have sold season tickets ? So not 20,000 but average will be more than £15 I would imagine the great unwashed pay £30 a ticket?

He is making Hearts £8 million loss seem realistic :greengrin


Aberdeen v Rangers - 4th Dec 2019 -
Attendance 14,790


They sold at least 10k Season Tickets last season, so not many walk-ups at that game...

[jacomo]

Nah, I think the European Court Of Human Rights would be the most appropriate.

We want £10M compensation between us.


Presumably you want to pocket 80% of the compensation, for reasons that aren’t entirely clear?

[Caversham Green]

Seems a huge amount for one match.

Wasn't he also talking about the lockdown costing them £1m per month? I think he's prone to a bit of exaggeration.

[Keith_M]

Presumably you want to pocket 80% of the compensation, for reasons that aren’t entirely clear?


I have a black eye. Plus all the emotional distress.

You can't put a price on that... But if you could, it would be £8M.

[malcolm]

Hearts are now relying on Belgium? Belgium? They are not even a real country, if my memory serves me right, they were originally part of Spain. They they are now the EU equivalent of Washington DC which is why the EU HQ and NATO are based there. The only good things to come out of Belgium are Tin Tin and Hercules Poirot, (both fictional, like Hearts attempts to portray themselves as a real team) and Jacques Brel, who was real and brilliant (unlike Hearts).


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I’d only vaguely heard of him before I visited the cemetery where he is buried. The French speakers seemed to be more impressed with him than the famous painter also buried there. For sure no one is going to sing ‘Ne Me Quitte Pas’ to hearts or budge more like ‘ferme la porte en sortant!’

[Peevemor]

Wasn't he also talking about the lockdown costing them £1m per month? I think he's prone to a bit of exaggeration.

It doesn't help anyone though. He can hardly come out with nonsense like that then say Hearts' £8m claim is OTT.

[PatHead]

Hearts are now relying on Belgium? Belgium? They are not even a real country, if my memory serves me right, they were originally part of Spain. They they are now the EU equivalent of Washington DC which is why the EU HQ and NATO are based there. The only good things to come out of Belgium are Tin Tin and Hercules Poirot, (both fictional, like Hearts attempts to portray themselves as a real team) and Jacques Brel, who was real and brilliant (unlike Hearts).


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What about chocolate and strong beer? Think you need to update the list.

[Keith_M]

IIRC, Aberdeen cut the away allocation for games against The Rangers and Celtc.

They now seem to be estimating the value of the games at some fantasy figure, despite having reduced the income from those games last season by their own actions.

They need to make up their minds if they need the money from the Ugly Sisters or not.

[Keith_M]

What about chocolate and strong beer? Think you need to update the list.


OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

[JimBHibees]

A) Brechin situation was different because bottom place doesn't automatically go down. Scrapping playoffs was the right thing to do as we would've had to then delay the restart for 6 matches to be played 1st. As it is, we have scrapped the January shut down and are praying for a mild winter because there is next to no room to rescheduled matches. There is no room to fit in the 2019/2020 playoff matches.

B) Brora and Kelty can perhaps consider themselves unlucky not to have a crack at promotion however playoffs would have involved 4 matches and as said above, there isn't room to fit in playoffs. Bonnyrigg Rose were 6 points behind Kelty with a game in hand so I wouldn't describe that as Kelty romping the league.

C) The game here would be no more of a laughing stock than the other European leagues, which have had court cases, if it hadn't been for Rangers trying to get rid of the SPFL board with their damp squib of a dossier because they're still upset about being made to restart at the 4th tier and because of the way Hearts and Hearts people have behaved.

In what way was the game a laughing stocking and a shambles pre-covid and how have the SPFL spoiled the product? Biggest TV deal ever, crowds at the highest levels for decades, easily the highest crowds per capita of any European country.

Very good post agree with all of it. Our league is probably as strong as it has been for a while and is no more a shambles than any other league dominated by one club at present. The biggest problem with Scottish football is the large numbers of people within the game who slag it off particularly MSM more prevalent when Rangers were in lower leagues and broadcast media particularly Sportsound who have been a genuine shambles during this pandemic.

When you say highest crowds in Europe per capita what does that mean per head of population?

[Keith_M]

...
When you say highest crowds in Europe per capita what does that mean per head of population?


It just means that the average attendance is artificially inflated by the number of Old Firm supporters.

If the attendances at top tier games were more evenly spread among the twelve teams, it would be worth bragging about.

However, the reality is that we have two massively supported clubs... plus a bunch of average to small teams making up the numbers.

[JimBHibees]

Aberdeen have a massive hospitality suite. That will be packed out when sevco visit

That will be or would have been?

Now that pubs are reopening are clubs able to sell hospitality on a reduced social distance basis?

[Billy Whizz]

That will be or would have been?

Now that pubs are reopening are clubs able to sell hospitality on a reduced social distance basis?

It’s a good and interesting point. Are they doing this in England?

[JimBHibees]

It just means that the average attendance is artificially inflated by the number of Old Firm supporters.

If the attendances at top tier games were more evenly spread among the twelve teams, it would be worth bragging about.

However, the reality is that we have two massively supported clubs... plus a bunch of average to small teams making up the numbers.

Realise that just wondered how it was worked out. Agree with your point.

[JimBHibees]

It’s a good and interesting point. Are they doing this in England?

Would assume not as think there is a 300 person limit on games including squads and club staff just wondering if that was likely to change.

[FilipinoHibs]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

Great football, tennis, the Belgium Resistance, beer, mussels in cream with fries, Rin Tin Tin, Hello Hello and great Economists.

[Peevemor]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

There's a comedian (comedienne?) called Laura Laune who can be hilarious - but only if you understand French. She's a bit fit too.

Plastic Bertrand (ça plan pour moi) is Belgian as was Adolphe Sax, inventor of the saxaphone.

[matty_f]

It doesn't help anyone though. He can hardly come out with nonsense like that then say Hearts' £8m claim is OTT.

He can if he’s demonstrating that it’s a loss that would have been incurred anyway. Hearts can’t claim compensation for it if the loss wasn’t from relegation. Covid related losses can’t be considered, as they’d incur them anyway.

[poolman]

You are not missing much, but here you go:

"Leslie Deans has asked me to post his final comments on jkb due to the backlash and sustained criticism posted by fellow members when the information, received and posted in good faith, has turned out to be incorrect. This basically comes down to the underhand tactics adopted by chairman when saying they’ll act one way but in fact act the complete opposite. There is no legislation that covers this. We all have the clubs best interests at heart, yet some of the abuse levelled at certain posters has left a bad taste in the mouth when all one is trying to do is keep members informed of proceedings. As follows:-


I have reluctantly decided to refrain from making further detailed comment on Kickback about the ongoing litigation/arbitration. Certain posters clearly object to your posting my remarks and I regard their personal abuse as offensive. Whilst I understand their frustration that the anticipated reconstruction never got off the ground ,the information provided to me was passed on in good faith. I was not the only one taken aback by the news that only 16 out of 42 clubs supported this.
Like others of my generation, my mastery of technology is not the best so thank you for lodging my comments. I should also congratulate certain posters-- David McCaig, Footbalfirst, Ethan Hunt, Hibsarepants come to mind amongst others, -- who continue to offer incisive and insightful comment on complex issues
I stated publicly on BBC radio that I believed we had a good case. David Thomson QC explained clearly in his opinion on Patrick Thistle 's website that the motion of April 10 had failed. He was clear in his view of the Dundee vote.
Additionally the SPFL executive induced its members to vote in a certain way by virtue of its misrepresentation and withholding of relevant information in its advice paper of April 8.
What follows is whether Hearts and PT suffered unfair prejudice as defined in the Companies Act. I believe they did. To change the rules from a 38 to a 30 game season part way through is inherently unfair if it leads to relegation , as admitted by at least one SPFL director.
The prejudice is the major loss of income suffered by being in a lower and shortened league.
With unfair prejudice established I anticipate the tribunal should find in favour of Hearts and PT.
The tribunal should comprise 3 experienced independent lawyers and I have no qualms or concerns that we will get a fair hearing. Any manifest legal errors will mean it's referred back to Lord Clark.
Others have said, rightly in my opinion, that there will be bad blood between clubs going forward. I hope in the fullness of time others might recognise that we fought for what is right and if changes are then made as a result , there could be a major benefit to football as a whole."


What a plum

He admits his " mastery of Technology " is crap 😄

Is he trying to say he's unaware of how to register on a message board and either post or reply to posts 🤔

He then gets a grade A roaster to do it for him 🙄

I wonder if his work still sends out letters ? Maybe not, he's maybe still trying to work out how to keep the stamps from falling of the envelope

[JimBHibees]

Great football, tennis, the Belgium Resistance, beer, mussels in cream with fries, Rin Tin Tin, Hello Hello and great Economists.

And who can forget Eddy Merckx five time Tour de France winner.:greengrin

[Peevemor]

He can if he’s demonstrating that it’s a loss that would have been incurred anyway. Hearts can’t claim compensation for it if the loss wasn’t from relegation. Covid related losses can’t be considered, as they’d incur them anyway.

All I'm saying is that if he can exaggerate his losses by a factor of 3 or 4, why can't they? It becomes open season for making up figures.

[Dalianwanda]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

Rock Werchter Festival always has a pretty strong line up...

[Sammy7nil]

He can if he’s demonstrating that it’s a loss that would have been incurred anyway. Hearts can’t claim compensation for it if the loss wasn’t from relegation. Covid related losses can’t be considered, as they’d incur them anyway.

That would be the problem if arbitration decide they were wrongly relegated taking in to account hospitality for games against OF Hibs as opposed to Alloa and Arbroath their income could go down by 50%. It would be very difficult to calculate losses.

[Brunswickbill]

What about chocolate and strong beer? Think you need to update the list.

Aye and the saxophone, invented by Adolphe Sax. Pretty good national fitba team as well.

[Lago]

Great football, tennis, the Belgium Resistance, beer, mussels in cream with fries, Rin Tin Tin, Hello Hello and great Economists.
Hello Hello, when did the border get moved?

[matty_f]

That would be the problem if arbitration decide they were wrongly relegated taking in to account hospitality for games against OF Hibs as opposed to Alloa and Arbroath their income could go down by 50%. It would be very difficult to calculate losses.

Only if those matches v Hibs etc took place prior to fans being back in stadiums.

[Gordy M]

It just means that the average attendance is artificially inflated by the number of Old Firm supporters.

If the attendances at top tier games were more evenly spread among the twelve teams, it would be worth bragging about.

However, the reality is that we have two massively supported clubs... plus a bunch of average to small teams making up the numbers.

But its not artificial, these are still members of the Scottish public watching Scottish football, and even if remove Celtic/Rangers, Scotland are still 4th in the table.....not too bad for a bunch of small/average teams

[monarch]

Forgetting Belgium for a moment isn’t it a pity that crowds are unable to attend matches at the moment (understandably). A pre season friendly for us at Raith Rovers might have persuaded More than a few Hibbys to cross the bridge in an attempt to help Rovers financial situation in fighting their corner in the upcoming arbitration.

[FilipinoHibs]

And who can forget Eddy Merckx five time Tour de France winner.:greengrinOr Audrey Hepburn. Plus Club Med holidays were invented in Belguim.

[Joe6-2]

Or Audrey Hepburn. Plus Club Med holidays were invented in Belguim.

Back to football
Kevin De Bruyne

[Sammy7nil]

Only if those matches v Hibs etc took place prior to fans being back in stadiums.

That is the point calculations will be very complicated should they also take account that Hearts should be reducing costs planning for the Championship. It could get very messy.

[mixumatosis]

What about chocolate and strong beer? Think you need to update the list.

Eddy Merckx, most of the best bike races in the world and +1 for the beer.

Also, chips. So they probably have a special relationship in the offing.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I don't know exactly how many STs they've sold, but assuming 8k, that leaves 12k tickets that they now can't sell. To get to £400k they'd need to be sold at an average of £33. Seems very unlikely once you account for concessions.

They would lose some additional money from catering, but £400k seems high.

Their commercial income is a lot higher than ours. Maybe they are including that?


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[Scott Allan Key]

When my wife was a private English tutor she got a letter supposedly from the governess of an adult male with learning difficulties who needed to improve his English. The letter had the same tone as this latest rubbish, and said that he was to be beaten with a cane if he misbehaved. (She binned him rapidly)

Not that I am alleging that they are the same, but this guy turned out to be writing the letters himself and was a doctor at a local hospital! Oh yes, and he was a pervert who went from tutor to tutor trying to get them to meet his real 'needs'. However, the whiny, self-serving style is similarSounds like an established Yam.

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[nonshinyfinish]

Their commercial income is a lot higher than ours. Maybe they are including that?


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Yeah could be. But my figures above were based on the incorrect assumption that they sell out for Sevco games – as Peevemor pointed out they only get ~15k. So even more would need to be from corporate/hospitality/whatever.

If the figure is accurate then they're absolutely raking it in from non-ticket sources.

[Peevemor]

Yeah could be. But my figures above were based on the incorrect assumption that they sell out for Sevco games – as Peevemor pointed out they only get ~15k. So even more would need to be from corporate/hospitality/whatever.

If the figure is accurate then they're absolutely raking it in from non-ticket sources.

And as i said in a precious post, 1000 in hospitality x £100 is only £100k - and that's a hugely generous estimation.

[Irish_Steve]

And who can forget Eddy Merckx five time Tour de France winner.:greengrin

The Cannibal - and if i remember correctly, the only man to win all three major jerseys in one Tour de France

[Aalborg Hibs]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

Eddy Merckx, Tom Boonen, Lucien van Impe, Philipe Gilbert, Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Eden Hazard, Kevin de Bruyne etc etc

[CropleyWasGod]

Eddy Merckx, Tom Boonen, Lucien van Impe, Philipe Gilbert, Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Eden Hazard, Kevin de Bruyne etc etc

Jacques Brel :not worth

[JohnMcM]

What about chocolate and strong beer? Think you need to update the list.

Don't forget the twirly pastry bun things with currants in them and a bit icing that look like a wee tolley.:greengrin

[H18 SFR]

Has it started yet? As in the SFA part?

[JeMeSouviens]

Waffles!

[Irish_Steve]

Stephane Omeonga

[JeMeSouviens]

... and frites with mayo.:drool:

(Allegedly) "French" fries are only called that because the US military didn't know where it was when the name caught on. :rolleyes:

[Keith_M]

Great football, tennis, the Belgium Resistance, beer, mussels in cream with fries, Rin Tin Tin, Hello Hello and great Economists.


What's 'Hello Hello'? Do you mean the Billy Boys song?

If you actually mean the TV show, then it's 'Allo, 'Allo and was in France, not Belgium

Also, 'Rin Tin Tin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rin_Tin_Tin)' was a dog in US movies. Whereas 'Tintin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin#/media/File:Tintin-mainCast.png)' (sans 'Rin') was the wee Belgian pr1ck that had a dog as a side-kick.



I really hope you're Hearts' Lawyer when they go to the Adjudication Panel.

:wink:

[oldbutdim]

Eddy Merckx, Tom Boonen, Lucien van Impe, Philipe Gilbert, Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Eden Hazard, Kevin de Bruyne etc etc

I believe the Smurfs are also Belgian.

But, even more of a surprise (if you were surprised at the Smurfs being Belgian that is) is the origin of French Fries.

Despite many believing these tasty potato snacks were invented by a lower division side in Gorgie, these were also of Belgian origin.
Shocker eh?

[calumhibee1]

But its not artificial, these are still members of the Scottish public watching Scottish football, and even if remove Celtic/Rangers, Scotland are still 4th in the table.....not too bad for a bunch of small/average teams

Yup. And if you remove the OF then you have to remove the big teams from other leagues.. which would probably put us back near the top again.

[Keith_M]

But its not artificial, these are still members of the Scottish public watching Scottish football, and even if remove Celtic/Rangers, Scotland are still 4th in the table.....not too bad for a bunch of small/average teams


If that's true, it would be pretty impressive.


I'm going to check that out, though.

:wink:

[FilipinoHibs]

What's 'Hello Hello'? Do you mean the Billy Boys song?

If you actually mean the TV show, then it's 'Allo, 'Allo and was in France, not Belgium

Also, 'Rin Tin Tin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rin_Tin_Tin)' was a dog in US movies. Whereas 'Tintin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin#/media/File:Tintin-mainCast.png)' (sans 'Rin') was the wee Belgian pr1ck that had a dog as a side-kick.



I really hope you're Hearts' Lawyer when they go to the Adjudication Panel.

:wink:

No they passed me over: they said I still had a grasp of some of the facts.

[TheMrSandiego]

A) Brechin situation was different because bottom place doesn't automatically go down. Scrapping playoffs was the right thing to do as we would've had to then delay the restart for 6 matches to be played 1st. As it is, we have scrapped the January shut down and are praying for a mild winter because there is next to no room to rescheduled matches. There is no room to fit in the 2019/2020 playoff matches.

B) Brora and Kelty can perhaps consider themselves unlucky not to have a crack at promotion however playoffs would have involved 4 matches and as said above, there isn't room to fit in playoffs. Bonnyrigg Rose were 6 points behind Kelty with a game in hand so I wouldn't describe that as Kelty romping the league.

C) The game here would be no more of a laughing stock than the other European leagues, which have had court cases, if it hadn't been for Rangers trying to get rid of the SPFL board with their damp squib of a dossier because they're still upset about being made to restart at the 4th tier and because of the way Hearts and Hearts people have behaved.

In what way was the game a laughing stocking and a shambles pre-covid and how have the SPFL spoiled the product? Biggest TV deal ever, crowds at the highest levels for decades, easily the highest crowds per capita of any European country.

I agree we had to scrap the Premier League play off due to the August 1st deadline for starting the new season, but given the lower leagues had no deadline and are now not starting until the middle of October, I think they could have done something with those play offs.

They could have played those at a neutral Premier League ground and found a way to settle all promotion and relgation in the lower leagues on the pitch rather than through a vote. It would have been easy to vote only on paying out prize money to the lower leagues back in March and wait a bit until the landscape was clearer before thinking about promotion and relegation.

By doing that Hearts case would also be considerably weaker as they would be the only club crying foul play. They wouldn't have Thistle to support them and they would in effect the only club taking a hit for the greater good of the game. Would have certainly been a more of a moral dilema for Budge.

As for the SPFL being a shambles, i will have to agree to disagree on that. We dont have a sponsor for the top flight or Scottish Cup. For years the product has been geared towards the old firm, particularly by Sky who now hold sole TV rights.

[TheMrSandiego]

A lot of guys replying to this you are clearly in a very small minority with your opinions OR a yam fud LTYF

Yam fud? Are you 12? My post was actually nothing to do with Hearts and more to do with the lower leagues. Maybe read that properly before throwing out insults.

[Keith_M]

No they passed me over: they said I still had a grasp of some of the facts.


Yeah, I thought you got to many parts right to be the Hearts Lawyer


:greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

Anderlecht, Liege, the Grande Place, Jupiler beer in the sunshine with thousands of other Hibbies. Belgium has good memories for me. First time I had seen chips with mayo, a revelation to a young boy from Alloa
Anyway back to the Jambos legal ****ing about. I am now very bored with it. Just get it done tell them to GTF, dick them points and fine them for bringing the game into disrepute and let's get the big teams in the big league playing football again!!

[FilipinoHibs]

Yeah, I thought you got to many parts right to be the Hearts Lawyer


:greengrin

My lud Allo Allo was a spoof of a BBC drama Secret Army which was based around a Brussels cafe's secret operations to get British pilots out of Belgium. Similar characters and relationships. I rest my case.

[HappyAsHellas]

If that's true, it would be pretty impressive.


I'm going to check that out, though.

:wink:
I'm sure I read that Ross County are one of the best supported teams in the world. Average gate of 4,000 and a town population of 8,000. When you put this in a per capita situation it means Newcastle would need a home gate of 500,000 to be in the same league. Statistics eh?

[Fish]

Eddy Merckx, Tom Boonen, Lucien van Impe, Philipe Gilbert, Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Eden Hazard, Kevin de Bruyne etc etc

If you are into your Belgian Nu Wave, Clan of Xymox (the early stuff)

[KdyHby]

Has the fundraiser started for Utd, Rovers and Cove?

[huggie1875]

Asterix and Obelix

[mal]

I agree we had to scrap the Premier League play off due to the August 1st deadline for starting the new season, but given the lower leagues had no deadline and are now not starting until the middle of October, I think they could have done something with those play offs.

They could have played those at a neutral Premier League ground and found a way to settle all promotion and relgation in the lower leagues on the pitch rather than through a vote. It would have been easy to vote only on paying out prize money to the lower leagues back in March and wait a bit until the landscape was clearer before thinking about promotion and relegation.

By doing that Hearts case would also be considerably weaker as they would be the only club crying foul play. They wouldn't have Thistle to support them and they would in effect the only club taking a hit for the greater good of the game. Would have certainly been a more of a moral dilema for Budge.


So let's see a few of the places where this solution falls down:

1) You want to play playoffs but you're scrapping the playoff for promotion to the top division, thus treating the different divisions differently, which would be unfair. This seems to be the very basis for the Belgian court case.
2) You don't seem to be proposing that the leagues are played to completion, just the playoffs. I assume that the qualification criterion for the playoffs would be current league position based on PPG. So you're simply complicating the perfectly workable solution we already have.
3) Probably most importantly, players were out of contract so these games would have to be played with radically different squads from the ones that played the actual league games, thus rendering the situation farcical.
4) Why has Partick's position changed in your scenario? They were in the automatic relegation place, not in a playoff position.
5) Nobody knew that the lower divisions wouldn't start until October when the decision had to be made.

[Hibby70]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

Brussel Sprouts. I believe Budge Dredd will be selling these in the new superstar next season.

[Aldo]

Has the fundraiser started for Utd, Rovers and Cove?

It has and they have raised about £13,000 last time I looked (that’s the 2 guys walking from Tiny to Tannadice)


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[CropleyWasGod]

Has the fundraiser started for Utd, Rovers and Cove?

Rovers have been quoted today as saying that they have received help from other clubs.

I presume United and Cove will have had the same.

[matty_f]

I agree we had to scrap the Premier League play off due to the August 1st deadline for starting the new season, but given the lower leagues had no deadline and are now not starting until the middle of October, I think they could have done something with those play offs.

They could have played those at a neutral Premier League ground and found a way to settle all promotion and relgation in the lower leagues on the pitch rather than through a vote. It would have been easy to vote only on paying out prize money to the lower leagues back in March and wait a bit until the landscape was clearer before thinking about promotion and relegation.

By doing that Hearts case would also be considerably weaker as they would be the only club crying foul play. They wouldn't have Thistle to support them and they would in effect the only club taking a hit for the greater good of the game. Would have certainly been a more of a moral dilema for Budge.

As for the SPFL being a shambles, i will have to agree to disagree on that. We dont have a sponsor for the top flight or Scottish Cup. For years the product has been geared towards the old firm, particularly by Sky who now hold sole TV rights.

Given that there is still no possibility of any of the teams who could have been in play off positions being able to train, and there being prohibitive cost and practical issues around being able to train, and considering the issues with player contracts, squad sizes etc, it’s being generous to say your suggestion that they could accommodate the play offs is fanciful.

[brog]

Yam fud? Are you 12? My post was actually nothing to do with Hearts and more to do with the lower leagues. Maybe read that properly before throwing out insults.

You have 17 posts in 2 years & more than 50% of them are defending Hearts in one way or another. As we're talking about Belgium I'd say your posts have the same odour as a rush hour Brussels tram! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I agree we had to scrap the Premier League play off due to the August 1st deadline for starting the new season, but given the lower leagues had no deadline and are now not starting until the middle of October, I think they could have done something with those play offs.

They could have played those at a neutral Premier League ground and found a way to settle all promotion and relgation in the lower leagues on the pitch rather than through a vote. It would have been easy to vote only on paying out prize money to the lower leagues back in March and wait a bit until the landscape was clearer before thinking about promotion and relegation.

By doing that Hearts case would also be considerably weaker as they would be the only club crying foul play. They wouldn't have Thistle to support them and they would in effect the only club taking a hit for the greater good of the game. Would have certainly been a more of a moral dilema for Budge.

As for the SPFL being a shambles, i will have to agree to disagree on that. We dont have a sponsor for the top flight or Scottish Cup. For years the product has been geared towards the old firm, particularly by Sky who now hold sole TV rights.

Given the problem is we can’t play football, it’s amazing how many people’s solution to the problem is we play football games.[emoji23]


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[Skol]

Given the problem is we can’t play football, it’s amazing how many people’s solution to the problem is we play football games.[emoji23]


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This for me is they key point. Way back when this wad first decided we had some hope we might be back playing, but its taken longer than anticipated which means finishing the season out is not an option and only could have been if Sturgeon had allowed Scotland to follow the England timeline.

For all that Hearts (and some other clubs) have been impacted by this decision, it remains the best available option of those on the table.

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't forget the twirly pastry bun things with currants in them and a bit icing that look like a wee tolley.:greengrin

You mean Danish pastries?? 😁

[Springbank]

This for me is they key point. Way back when this wad first decided we had some hope we might be back playing, but its taken longer than anticipated which means finishing the season out is not an option and only could have been if Sturgeon had allowed Scotland to follow the England timeline.

For all that Hearts (and some other clubs) have been impacted by this decision, it remains the best available option of those on the table.

One day last week England had 183 deaths
The whole of the EU combined had 103
Scotland had 0 Wales 1 NI 1

In a pandemic, health comes first, football doesn't
Suggesting we follow England's lead is to risk lives

[Moulin Yarns]

Asterix and Obelix

That's gauling 😉

[jacomo]

Given that there is still no possibility of any of the teams who could have been in play off positions being able to train, and there being prohibitive cost and practical issues around being able to train, and considering the issues with player contracts, squad sizes etc, it’s being generous to say your suggestion that they could accommodate the play offs is fanciful.


Going ahead with the play offs without completing the league games that determine which club gets a play off place is the most convoluted nonsense I have heard during this entire saga.

The Hearts are a bit hard of thinking, aren’t they?

[matty_f]

Going ahead with the play offs without completing the league games that determine which club gets a play off place is the most convoluted nonsense I have heard during this entire saga.

The Hearts are a bit hard of thinking, aren’t they?

This is not new news. :greengrin

[Sammy7nil]

]Going ahead with the play offs without completing the league games that determine which club gets a play off place is the most convoluted nonsense I[/B] have heard during this entire saga.

The Hearts are a bit hard of thinking, aren’t they?

You mean like they are doing in England :confused:

[nonshinyfinish]

You mean like they are doing in England :confused:

Yeah, if points per game is good enough to decide champions, Europe and automatic relegation places, it's good enough to decide playoff places.

The reason to bin the playoffs was the uncertainty around getting them played (meaning teams could go for months not knowing what league to prepare for).

[Skol]

One day last week England had 183 deaths
The whole of the EU combined had 103
Scotland had 0 Wales 1 NI 1

In a pandemic, health comes first, football doesn't
Suggesting we follow England's lead is to risk lives

I didn’t suggest that. I just said that’s the only way it could have happened.

[JeMeSouviens]

Asterix and Obelix

French to the tip of their Gaulois.

[Peevemor]

French to the tip of their Gaulois.

Apart from Gérard Depardieu who plays Obelix in the films and, apart 5 different passports, is currently Russian. :greengrin

[Tynie01011973]

You mean Danish pastries?? 😁

Belgian Buns 😁

[Numptie]

Apart from Gérard Depardieu who plays Obelix in the films and, apart 5 different passports, is currently Russian. :greengrin

Asterix the Gaul - Gaul covered France, Belgium, and parts of Holland and Germany. So, part Belgian.

[CentreLine]

Belgian Buns 😁

Beer. Belgian beer is some of the strongest and best beer around 🍻

[The 90+2]

Kelty and Brora have been the least hard done by in all of this. They were absolute ****ing chancers trying to act the victim and snake their way into the league setup on the back of the virus.

Nah that award goes to Stranraer who where goosed big time but been claiming hard done by big time.

[Bostonhibby]

Nah that award goes to Stranraer who where goosed big time but been claiming hard done by big time.Stranraer are the Hearts of Dumfries and Galloway by the sounds of it. Probably call themselves famous as well

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[JohnMcM]

You mean Danish pastries?? 😁

Oh.:rolleyes:

[hibeerealist]

Yam fud? Are you 12? My post was actually nothing to do with Hearts and more to do with the lower leagues. Maybe read that properly before throwing out insults.

OK maybe, just maybe a Hibby but with Hertz / Yam mentality / opinion towards the leagues calling, that help!

Oh and your next post about playing the play off games now after season ended, MOST of the clubs in the lower leagues have NO players signed as their contracts ended May/June so you propose they play these games with different teams to those they had during the season?

LTYF

[G B Young]

Sorry if I've missed it, but has the arbitration panel even been set up yet? I thought there was talk of it being in place as early as Monday this week?

[Peevemor]

Sorry if I've missed it, but has the arbitration panel even been set up yet? I thought there was talk of it being in place as early as Monday this week?

I don't know how much will be publicised about the arbitration, but the Raith Rovers chairman is in the papers today saying that it'll probably take place next week.

[CropleyWasGod]

Asterix the Gaul - Gaul covered France, Belgium, and parts of Holland and Germany. So, part Belgian.

Gaul also comprised parts of Northern Italy. Without wanting to bring up JK Rowling, the part you talk about was Transalpine Gaul, and the Italian part was Cisalpine Gaul.

Only on Hibs.net 🙏

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry if I've missed it, but has the arbitration panel even been set up yet? I thought there was talk of it being in place as early as Monday this week?

The SFA said that they would be making no further comment, presumably until it is over.

[RoYO!]

Something that continually seems to be forgotten- to the point where I'm doubting myself- it's in the articles/ spfl rules that they can call the league at any point-true or false?

In which case- how has this gone this far? It's in the rules of the competition which hearts signed up to.

Also belgium and France perhaps dont have such wording.

In the words of Mugatu, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

[Joe6-2]

Something that continually seems to be forgotten- to the point where I'm doubting myself- it's in the articles/ spfl rules that they can call the league at any point-true or false?

In which case- how has this gone this far? It's in the rules of the competition which hearts signed up to.

Also belgium and France perhaps dont have such wording.

In the words of Mugatu, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

This is the reason this should have been nipped in the bud right at the start, no rules were broken and it’s been allowed to become a complete farce

[Peevemor]

This is the reason this should have been nipped in the bud right at the start, no rules were broken and it’s been allowed to become a complete farce

By who though?

Even though there is a rule in place that HMFC/PTFC aren't allowed to take the SPFL to court, they did it anyway.

Hearts in particular have made it a farce, but nobody in a position of authority could stop them doing so.

[Lago]

​
Sorry if I've missed it, but has the arbitration panel even been set up yet? I thought there was talk of it being in place as early as Monday this week?
Read it due to start on Monday or Tuesday of next week. Reading Bill Clark's, Raith Rovers, thoughts today & he seems to think the outcome is 50-50 which is a bit of a worry.

[Sammy7nil]

​
Read it due to start on Monday or Tuesday of next week. Reading Bill Clark's, Raith Rovers, thoughts today & he seems to think the outcome is 50-50 which is a bit of a worry.

First time I have read anyone close to the case put a figure on it. It will have the Jumbo hoards frothing out of their facemasks.

A little worrying as I would have thought if there is nothing untoward in the SPFL records it would a be a slam dunk with the possibility of a small amount of compensation paid if the panel were feeling generous.

[Aalborg Hibs]

You mean Danish pastries?? 😁

In Denmark, they are called Wienerbrød, or 'bread from Vienna'. I think it was the Americans who arsed that one up. Again.

[Victor]

​
Read it due to start on Monday or Tuesday of next week. Reading Bill Clark's, Raith Rovers, thoughts today & he seems to think the outcome is 50-50 which is a bit of a worry.

If arbitration finds for Hearts and they are reinstated to the Premier League, we should follow the Hearts fans’ lead and boycott everything. Going out, staying in, watching football, not watching football, everything. That’ll teach them.


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[Bostonhibby]

Gaul also comprised parts of Northern Italy. Without wanting to bring up JK Rowling, the part you talk about was Transalpine Gaul, and the Italian part was Cisalpine Gaul.

Only on Hibs.net [emoji120]

Sounds like a load of Gauls to me, couldn't we get Budge on the case to devise an acceptable solution this transalpine / Cisalpine thing?

Maybe divide the two into 14 and get them to give a lot of money to Hearts?

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[Keith_M]

Belgian Buns ��


You just reminded me of this Belgian Waitress...


23735

[MrSmith]

If arbitration finds for Hearts and they are reinstated to the Premier League, we should follow the Hearts fans’ lead and boycott everything. Going out, staying in, watching football, not watching football, everything. That’ll teach them.


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if arbitration finds for Hearts, I’d expect Dundee Utd, Raith & Cove to bring an action to court. Consisting of, subversion of Scottish football through corruption and bribe plus bullying. I’m absolutely certain every other team in Scottish Football will make it an open season in terms of court action regarding Hearts and Partick. Both of those teams are on shaky ground right now.

[Lago]

First time I have read anyone close to the case put a figure on it. It will have the Jumbo hoards frothing out of their facemasks.

A little worrying as I would have thought if there is nothing untoward in the SPFL records it would a be a slam dunk with the possibility of a small amount of compensation paid if the panel were feeling generous.
Yes I was as well, he has a fairly large piece in today's Daily Mail, print version, goes into why they felt it was necessary to defend the case & that a number of clubs from across the divisions have contributed to Raith's cost. Makes the point that Hearts & Partick have asked for documentation going back to the first resolution & the Dundee SPFL vote & whether it was legal or not. Says it will be decided on company law rather than sporting fairness. In his judgment he thinks it could be a 50-50 call.

[brog]

Yes I was as well, he has a fairly large piece in today's Daily Mail, print version, goes into why they felt it was necessary to defend the case & that a number of clubs from across the divisions have contributed to Raith's cost. Makes the point that Hearts & Partick have asked for documentation going back to the first resolution & the Dundee SPFL vote & whether it was legal or not. Says it will be decided on company law rather than sporting fairness. In his judgment he thinks it could be a 50-50 call.

What do you expect him to say? He can't say anything else.

[WhileTheChief..]

Hearts fans still hoping that several clubs go bust.

Not gonna happen Jambos.

I’ll bet that every club survives and that all Hearts’ squealing will be quickly forgotten as soon as the first ball of the season is kicked :cb

[Lago]

What do you expect him to say? He can't say anything else.
Really?

[jacomo]

Something that continually seems to be forgotten- to the point where I'm doubting myself- it's in the articles/ spfl rules that they can call the league at any point-true or false?

In which case- how has this gone this far? It's in the rules of the competition which hearts signed up to.

Also belgium and France perhaps dont have such wording.

In the words of Mugatu, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!


Having read the relevant clauses, I think that it is open to interpretation. Mind you, I’m not a lawyer, but the legal profession makes money in finding room for manoeuvre on issues that initially appear straightforward.

What is not in doubt however is that the top flight voted unanimously to end the season, pay out prize money and declare Celtc champions and Hearts relegated. As Hearts participated in that process and did not object at the time, and indeed publicly support most of it, I am not sure what legal grounds they have to exempt themselves from relegation.

[Kato]

Hearts fans still hoping that several clubs go bust.

Not gonna happen Jambos.

I’ll bet that every club survives and that all Hearts’ squealing will be quickly forgotten as soon as the first ball of the season is kicked :cbThat's assuming they stop squealing.

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[Springbank]

Having read the relevant clauses, I think that it is open to interpretation. Mind you, I’m not a lawyer, but the legal profession makes money in finding room for manoeuvre on issues that initially appear straightforward.

What is not in doubt however is that the top flight voted unanimously to end the season, pay out prize money and declare Celtc champions and Hearts relegated. As Hearts participated in that process and did not object at the time, and indeed publicly support most of it, I am not sure what legal grounds they have to exempt themselves from relegation.

I think Doncaster & the spfl have played Ann Budge like a piano

That the *process* of the Dundee Good Friday vote was *messy* is not in doubt. But its *legality* was sound. If anything ICT and PTFC may expect a reprimand for attempting to collude to rig that vote in hearts favour....

Since Good Friday it's been plain sailing
Budge given the reconstruction reigns
Budge fails to even put a proposal to a vote
Spfl takes the reigns & puts 14-10-10-10 to a vote
Budge votes for relegation & prizemoney
Clubs reject reconstruction plans

[malcolm]

Apart from Gérard Depardieu who plays Obelix in the films and, apart 5 different passports, is currently Russian. :greengrin


And the fact that Goscinny though born in Paris in 1926 was a child of immigrants from Poland and Ukraine and spent his childhood in Argentina, before moving to New York. On his return he founded the Franco-Belgian comics magazine Pilote and began his career as a cartoonist. The other one, Uderzo, was also born in France as the child of Italian immigrants. They had an exhibition at the Jewish museum in London about Goscinny. My favourite comic books ever and about the Gauls ...a name derived I believe from a celtic word for clan. So all round maybe not so French in origin as it appears.:greengrin

Incidentally not sure even Getafix could help hearts now.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Really?

Really

[jacomo]

That's assuming they stop squealing.

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They won’t. But they will be a separate division to us, so it will seem quieter.

[Mibbes Aye]

OK, but aside from Tin Tin, Poirot, chocolate and strong beer... what have the Belgians ever done for us?

Eric Gerets, defender for Standard Liege and the Belgian side back in the eighties.

In a feat of foresight that made Nostradamus look lame, he invented the lockdown look -hair and facial hair.

Some purists would argue that Paul Breitner got there first but that smacks of a typical Teutonic superiority complex.

Oh, and the R&S record label. Now that was techno!

[CB_NO3]

Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove asking for a sub?

[tamig]

Yes I was as well, he has a fairly large piece in today's Daily Mail, print version, goes into why they felt it was necessary to defend the case & that a number of clubs from across the divisions have contributed to Raith's cost. Makes the point that Hearts & Partick have asked for documentation going back to the first resolution & the Dundee SPFL vote & whether it was legal or not. Says it will be decided on company law rather than sporting fairness. In his judgment he thinks it could be a 50-50 call.
If the initial vote is deemed illegal then surely the obvious solution is to hold another vote. I don’t think the panel has the authority to order the SPFL to effectively null and void the season. That would be a car crash.

In any case, there seems to be no issue surrounding the legality of the Dundee vote although it turned into a bit of a comms fiasco.

[Kato]

I think Doncaster & the spfl have played Ann Budge like a piano

That the *process* of the Dundee Good Friday vote was *messy* is not in doubt. But its *legality* was sound. If anything ICT and PTFC may expect a reprimand for attempting to collude to rig that vote in hearts favour....

Since Good Friday it's been plain sailing
Budge given the reconstruction reigns
Budge fails to even put a proposal to a vote
Spfl takes the reigns & puts 14-10-10-10 to a vote
Budge votes for relegation & prizemoney
Clubs reject reconstruction plansA fair summation.

Still waiting to hear which elements of this were unfair to Hearts.


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[Irish_Steve]

Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove asking for a sub?

Yip - quite right too and hopefully it will wind up the maroon muppets also

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53346709

[Sammy7nil]

Having read the relevant clauses, I think that it is open to interpretation. Mind you, I’m not a lawyer, but the legal profession makes money in finding room for manoeuvre on issues that initially appear straightforward.

What is not in doubt however is that the top flight voted unanimously to end the season, pay out prize money and declare Celtc champions and Hearts relegated. As Hearts participated in that process and did not object at the time, and indeed publicly support most of it, I am not sure what legal grounds they have to exempt themselves from relegation.

I am sure Hearts are claiming they did not vote for that and ND was wrong to say it was unanimous.

[007]

Having read the relevant clauses, I think that it is open to interpretation. Mind you, I’m not a lawyer, but the legal profession makes money in finding room for manoeuvre on issues that initially appear straightforward.

What is not in doubt however is that the top flight voted unanimously to end the season, pay out prize money and declare Celtc champions and Hearts relegated. As Hearts participated in that process and did not object at the time, and indeed publicly support most of it, I am not sure what legal grounds they have to exempt themselves from relegation.

I keep seeing that Hearts agreed to their relegation. I disagree with that. They voted against the initial resolution which included ending the season, paying out prize money, declaring Celtc champions, relegating Hearts and promoting Dundee United etc. They then subsequently only agreed the league couldn't be played to a finish and that was all that was in the unanimous vote, not promotion/relegation.

Their argument is that curtailing the league was fine but not the relegation/promotion.

The SPFL website says:

SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: “On Friday, Ladbrokes Premiership clubs expressed their clear and unanimous view that there was no realistic prospect of completing the outstanding fixtures from Season 2019/20.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ladbrokes-premiership-and-spfl-season-201920-cur

The website does also say:

As with the Ladbrokes Championship, Ladbrokes League One and Ladbrokes League Two competitions, final season placings have been determined by points per game in league matches played to 13 March 2020 by each club.

The decision means that Celtic are crowned 2019/20 champions and Hearts have been relegated to the Ladbrokes Championship.

But I don't think Hearts conceding there was no way the league could be finished means they were agreeing to the outcomes determined in the resolution, which they voted against.

[hibbyfraelibby]

If the initial vote is deemed illegal then surely the obvious solution is to hold another vote. I don’t think the panel has the authority to order the SPFL to effectively null and void the season. That would be a car crash.

In any case, there seems to be no issue surrounding the legality of the Dundee vote although it turned into a bit of a comms fiasco.

I wish people would stop calling the first vote "illegal". Even if the law was not followed it would not be "illegal" but "unlawful" a completely different legal concept with a whole raft of different resolution options. Whatever the Oink Plonkers think this isn't going to result in anyone getting criminal record.

[PatHead]

I keep seeing that Hearts agreed to their relegation. I disagree with that. They voted against the initial resolution which included ending the season, paying out prize money, declaring Celtc champions, relegating Hearts and promoting Dundee United etc. They then subsequently only agreed the league couldn't be played to a finish and that was all that was in the unanimous vote, not promotion/relegation.

Their argument is that curtailing the league was fine but not the relegation/promotion.

The SPFL website says:

SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: “On Friday, Ladbrokes Premiership clubs expressed their clear and unanimous view that there was no realistic prospect of completing the outstanding fixtures from Season 2019/20.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ladbrokes-premiership-and-spfl-season-201920-cur

The website does also say:

As with the Ladbrokes Championship, Ladbrokes League One and Ladbrokes League Two competitions, final season placings have been determined by points per game in league matches played to 13 March 2020 by each club.

The decision means that Celtic are crowned 2019/20 champions and Hearts have been relegated to the Ladbrokes Championship.

But I don't think Hearts conceding there was no way the league could be finished means they were agreeing to the outcomes determined in the resolution, which they voted against.
Did they not vote for the board to be allowed to call the league?

[Sammy7nil]

Did they not vote for the board to be allowed to call the league?

Yes, but is that the same thing as voting for relegation?

No wonder legal people make a fortune :greengrin

[jacomo]

I think Doncaster & the spfl have played Ann Budge like a piano

That the *process* of the Dundee Good Friday vote was *messy* is not in doubt. But its *legality* was sound. If anything ICT and PTFC may expect a reprimand for attempting to collude to rig that vote in hearts favour....

Since Good Friday it's been plain sailing
Budge given the reconstruction reigns
Budge fails to even put a proposal to a vote
Spfl takes the reigns & puts 14-10-10-10 to a vote
Budge votes for relegation & prizemoney
Clubs reject reconstruction plans


Don’t disagree with any of that.

[PatHead]

Yes, but is that the same thing as voting for relegation?

No wonder legal people make a fortune :greengrin

Depends on which side you are on I suppose. If they didn't want to run the risk of the season being called they should have voted against. You can argue that they would have known that and should have voted against.

[jacomo]

I keep seeing that Hearts agreed to their relegation. I disagree with that. They voted against the initial resolution which included ending the season, paying out prize money, declaring Celtc champions, relegating Hearts and promoting Dundee United etc. They then subsequently only agreed the league couldn't be played to a finish and that was all that was in the unanimous vote, not promotion/relegation.

Their argument is that curtailing the league was fine but not the relegation/promotion.

The SPFL website says:

SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: “On Friday, Ladbrokes Premiership clubs expressed their clear and unanimous view that there was no realistic prospect of completing the outstanding fixtures from Season 2019/20.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ladbrokes-premiership-and-spfl-season-201920-cur

The website does also say:

As with the Ladbrokes Championship, Ladbrokes League One and Ladbrokes League Two competitions, final season placings have been determined by points per game in league matches played to 13 March 2020 by each club.

The decision means that Celtic are crowned 2019/20 champions and Hearts have been relegated to the Ladbrokes Championship.

But I don't think Hearts conceding there was no way the league could be finished means they were agreeing to the outcomes determined in the resolution, which they voted against.


Have to say, I was under the impression they were one and the same thing. Obviously Hearts also got assurances that reconstruction would be looked at seriously and Budge accepted role as vice chair of the task force.

But surely they voted for season to end and all that comes with it?

[007]

Did they not vote for the board to be allowed to call the league?

I think it was exactly how Neil Doncaster says it on the SPFL website.

"SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: “On Friday, Ladbrokes Premiership clubs expressed their clear and unanimous view that there was no realistic prospect of completing the outstanding fixtures from Season 2019/20."

People have misinterpreted this as Hearts agreeing to their relegation, which was probably because of the way it was put across in the media at the time. If they'd gone on record as agreeing to the relegation part of the resolution I doubt the case would have made it this far.

[green day]

I keep seeing that Hearts agreed to their relegation. I disagree with that. They voted against the initial resolution which included ending the season, paying out prize money, declaring Celtc champions, relegating Hearts and promoting Dundee United etc. They then subsequently only agreed the league couldn't be played to a finish and that was all that was in the unanimous vote, not promotion/relegation.

Their argument is that curtailing the league was fine but not the relegation/promotion.

The SPFL website says:

SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: “On Friday, Ladbrokes Premiership clubs expressed their clear and unanimous view that there was no realistic prospect of completing the outstanding fixtures from Season 2019/20.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ladbrokes-premiership-and-spfl-season-201920-cur

The website does also say:

As with the Ladbrokes Championship, Ladbrokes League One and Ladbrokes League Two competitions, final season placings have been determined by points per game in league matches played to 13 March 2020 by each club.

The decision means that Celtic are crowned 2019/20 champions and Hearts have been relegated to the Ladbrokes Championship.

But I don't think Hearts conceding there was no way the league could be finished means they were agreeing to the outcomes determined in the resolution, which they voted against.

If Hearts and Budge are hanging their hats on that, then its laughable. This is straight out the Leslie Deans "I am an actual Lawyer you know" playbook of bollocks

There is no way (absolutely no chance) that no chairmen out of the 12 asked "so, if we agree that that we cant finish the season, does that mean that Champions are crowned and a team is automatically relegated?"

I would bet it is even minuted as well.

[tamig]

I wish people would stop calling the first vote "illegal". Even if the law was not followed it would not be "illegal" but "unlawful" a completely different legal concept with a whole raft of different resolution options. Whatever the Oink Plonkers think this isn't going to result in anyone getting criminal record.

Thats fair enough although I was only using the wording others have used.

[007]

Have to say, I was under the impression they were one and the same thing. Obviously Hearts also got assurances that reconstruction would be looked at seriously and Budge accepted role as vice chair of the task force.

But surely they voted for season to end and all that comes with it?

The distinction is, they didn't vote to end the season in the Good Friday vote and then later agreed it couldn't be completed. Remember back in April, along with Rangers and Inverness, they were putting together their own resolution for null and void which is also agreeing the season can't be completed. Agreeing at the meeting of top flight clubs in the middle of May that the league can't be completed is being consistent with what they were trying to do with null and void. It is also consistent with their argument that everything in the Good Friday resolution should stand except for relegation and promotion.

[Baader]

Loved Deans cameo during this. Comes on the radio slavering about injustice and how Hearts can destroy Scottish football from within. Reminds everyone he is a lawyer. But one you buy a house from, not a proper lawyer. Feeds a load of nonsense to some mug on Kickback. Declares that reconstruction is a goer with the member clubs, maybe a vote or two away. Gets it spectacularly wrong. Gives opinion on their case. Gets that wrong, he misread it. Blames his age. Says he is flattered some fans would want him on the arbitration panel despite the fact he can't actually be considered. Gets some more stuff wrong. Says he won't be offering any more legal opinion. F****s off. Best Hertz cameo since Albert Kidd in 1986.

[O'Rourke3]

Yes I was as well, he has a fairly large piece in today's Daily Mail, print version, goes into why they felt it was necessary to defend the case & that a number of clubs from across the divisions have contributed to Raith's cost. Makes the point that Hearts & Partick have asked for documentation going back to the first resolution & the Dundee SPFL vote & whether it was legal or not. Says it will be decided on company law rather than sporting fairness. In his judgment he thinks it could be a 50-50 call.

Arbitration needs to get to an agreement. This will be money. If the panel finds for Hearts, then Aug 1 is goosed as they haven't even started training yet. That screws everyone else up and invites more court action from the Arabs. Cue emergency resolution to dissolve the company and regroup with a 40 team set-up.

[McD]

They have implemented such schedules in England and other leagues. That was driven by the TV money in these leagues admittedly. This would be applied to the top league only. I am not advocating it but saying if we were in Hearts position in March this is something that could be put before the league that was a bit more creative and not antagonistic that could have won the support of clubs. Hearts and Rangers adopted a confrontational approach of null and void and unworkable reconstructions.


In England it was to complete the last 9 matches of this season, not for the whole season that you were advocating

and even then, other interventions have been put in place to minimise injuries such as a break in the middle of each half for fluids and rest, and 5 subs with 9 on the bench

[007]

If Hearts and Budge are hanging their hats on that, then its laughable. This is straight out the Leslie Deans "I am an actual Lawyer you know" playbook of bollocks

There is no way (absolutely no chance) that no chairmen out of the 12 asked "so, if we agree that that we cant finish the season, does that mean that Champions are crowned and a team is automatically relegated?"

I would bet it is even minuted as well.

Just to be clear, I disagree with most things Budge says and does, I just don't think she's ballsed up this bit of her argument like some think she has.

The SPFL had to let UEFA know if we were calling the league or playing it to a finish and that's what the discussion in the middle of May between the Premiership clubs was about. They all agreed it couldn't be played to a finish. We weren't on the call and haven't seen the minutes so we don't know how the discussions went but I'd bet Hearts and Rangers made it clear they weren't going to argue the league could actually be played to a finish and that it didn't mean they'd changed their minds about relegation or awarding titles.

If Hearts were on the record as agreeing to their relegation it would have been brought up at the Court of Session hearing by the SPFL's or the 3 clubs' lawyer.

[jacomo]

The distinction is, they didn't vote to end the season in the Good Friday vote and then later agreed it couldn't be completed. Remember back in April, along with Rangers and Inverness, they were putting together their own resolution for null and void which is also agreeing the season can't be completed. Agreeing at the meeting of top flight clubs in the middle of May that the league can't be completed is being consistent with what they were trying to do with null and void. It is also consistent with their argument that everything in the Good Friday resolution should stand except for relegation and promotion.


Yes but the Rangers pulled the plug and the null and void option was never put forward as a formal proposal.

Hearts are trying to make the case that they’ve been wronged in some way, but it’s hard to see how. I really hope that stamping your feet and generally acting like a spoilt 8 yr old doesn’t carry any legal weight.

[Lago]

If the initial vote is deemed illegal then surely the obvious solution is to hold another vote. I don’t think the panel has the authority to order the SPFL to effectively null and void the season. That would be a car crash.

In any case, there seems to be no issue surrounding the legality of the Dundee vote although it turned into a bit of a comms fiasco.
Only reporting what I read in a daily paper as I thought it was of interest, some on here apparently seem to think it's my own interpretation of the situation for some reason, maybe too lazy to read it in it's entirety for themselves. 😒

[Lago]

I wish people would stop calling the first vote "illegal". Even if the law was not followed it would not be "illegal" but "unlawful" a completely different legal concept with a whole raft of different resolution options. Whatever the Oink Plonkers think this isn't going to result in anyone getting criminal record.
Illegal - unlawful sounds like symantecs.

[Andy74]

Illegal - unlawful sounds like symantecs.

Illegal means that it is contrary to an existing law.

Unlawful means that there isn’t expressly a law that allows the thing.

[Caversham Green]

Just to be clear, I disagree with most things Budge says and does, I just don't think she's ballsed up this bit of her argument like some think she has.

The SPFL had to let UEFA know if we were calling the league or playing it to a finish and that's what the discussion in the middle of May between the Premiership clubs was about. They all agreed it couldn't be played to a finish. We weren't on the call and haven't seen the minutes so we don't know how the discussions went but I'd bet Hearts and Rangers made it clear they weren't going to argue the league could actually be played to a finish and that it didn't mean they'd changed their minds about relegation or awarding titles.

If Hearts were on the record as agreeing to their relegation it would have been brought up at the Court of Session hearing by the SPFL's or the 3 clubs' lawyer.

The resolution to promote United had already been passed in April so if the Premiership season wasn't going to be completed Hearts knew they would either be relegated or reconstruction would happen. The fact that they hadn't voted in favour of the resolution is irrelevant - I didn't vote for Boris but he's still the PM. If they didn't agree with the way the April vote was held they should have formally objected at that point and taken no part in the vote to curtail the Premiership since taking part implies acceptance of the earlier resolution. Reconstruction was given more chances to pass than it deserved, it failed so relegation is the only other option.

The Court of Session hearing was not about the case itself, it was about deciding whether that was the right place to be hearing the case so Hearts agreement or otherwise to their relegation wasn't relevant.

[southern hibby]

I’m probably going to make a fool of myself here as I’ve no law knowledge But here goes.....

If hearts voted for the league to end because there had to be an answer to Uefa reference finishing the league games by the end of July. Wouldn’t they have more chance of getting compensation from Uefa because they were the governing body that was making the SPFL give an answer before they had a realistic chance of knowing how the Scottish Government was playing lockdown in stadiums?

Trust me I’m not in anyway sticking up for them but I can’t see how they believe it’s scottish footballs fault the league had to be called.

As I said earlier I’ve probably opened myself up for some ridicule.

GGTTH

[Juice-Terry]

Illegal means that it is contrary to an existing law.

Unlawful means that there isn’t expressly a law that allows the thing.

Really? Is there a law that expressly allows breathing? If not, does that make breathing unlawful? If so, what's the use of the concept?

[PatHead]

Arbitration needs to get to an agreement. This will be money. If the panel finds for Hearts, then Aug 1 is goosed as they haven't even started training yet. That screws everyone else up and invites more court action from the Arabs. Cue emergency resolution to dissolve the company and regroup with a 40 team set-up.

I have a feeling that there has to be a 12 month notice period so that would not work.

[Andy74]

Really? Is there a law that expressly allows breathing? If not, does that make breathing unlawful? If so, what's the use of the concept?

There’s no law that specifically covers you’re right to breathe, but it’s not illegal because there’s no law against it.

[FilipinoHibs]

They agree to the champions of each league being declared when the league was called. That was the first vote involving the Dundee vote. They are validating this vote but saying relegation was unfair. But so was teams unable to improve their positions including taking part in the play offs and improve their financial position. The Dundee vote has been shown to be within company law and has been audited by a third party. This is about money and placating their fans. If the two side cannot agree on a compromised amount, then panel will impose an amount that think is reasonable which may be zero.

[Numptie]

I have a feeling that there has to be a 12 month notice period so that would not work.

Arbitration does not reach an agreement it produces a finding. This isn't mediation. The panel look at the side's arguments and just like court, makes a judgement. They will make a decision based on company law.

[Northernhibee]

Cove starting fundraising for their legal challenge.

https://gf.me/u/yfut7r

[Lago]

There’s no law that specifically covers you’re right to breathe, but it’s not illegal because there’s no law against it.
Who was it said "the Law is an ass"

[Juice-Terry]

There’s no law that specifically covers you’re right to breathe, but it’s not illegal because there’s no law against it.

But according to your definition above it's unlawful (not illegal) to breathe. Is that really right? Does 'unlawful' mean something more like 'not covered by the law'?

[Andy74]

But according to your definition above it's unlawful (not illegal) to breathe. Is that really right? Does 'unlawful' mean something more like 'not covered by the law'?

It is an extreme example of course because it is something you can’t help but yes it is the subtle difference between something that is against a law and something that is not expressly permitted by a law.

[Sammy7nil]

Arbitration needs to get to an agreement. This will be money. If the panel finds for Hearts, then Aug 1 is goosed as they haven't even started training yet. That screws everyone else up and invites more court action from the Arabs. Cue emergency resolution to dissolve the company and regroup with a 40 team set-up.

I may be wrong but there does not have to be an agreement, if parties fail to reach agreement the panel decides and that decision is binding.

[PatHead]

Arbitration does not reach an agreement it produces a finding. This isn't mediation. The panel look at the side's arguments and just like court, makes a judgement. They will make a decision based on company law.

Surely they couldn’t dissolve the company (or set up a new company) without 12 months notice though?

[AltheHibby]

From the Metro:

"'Unlawful' is an adjective which describes when something is not permitted by or conforming to the law. Meanwhile, something that is 'illegal' is forbidden by law.24 Sep 2019"

Which is different from my understanding that unlawful is against the law and illegal is a sick bird of prey.:greengrin

[proud_and_green]

Belgium were part of the Netherlands until 1830And the Netherlands was a Spanish colony.

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[Lago]

And the Netherlands was a Spanish colony.

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Yes and they were called The Low Country's