Brexit - What Now.

[BroxburnHibee]

Apologies for another thread but after last night's results be interesting to see whether people think it will actually happen.

Will we leave on the 31st October?

[makaveli1875]

No we wont . Maybe the politicians can learn something from this . If they want to change the status quo on a big issue like this then a clear majority is required at the polls , 60% required to win or something along those lines .

[Fife-Hibee]

No we wont . Maybe the politicians can learn something from this . If they want to change the status quo on a big issue like this then a clear majority is required at the polls , 60% required to win or something along those lines .

Democracy doesn't work on 60%. In fact, it completely undermines it.

[makaveli1875]

Democracy doesn't work on 60%. In fact, it completely undermines it.

Democracy is falling apart on 52% . If 1 side had got 60% we wouldnt be having these arguments , it would be clear cut and decisive .

[lapsedhibee]

Don't know yet. Too early to say whether Farageism has peaked. Despite more people having voted anti-Brexit than pro-Brexit, Brexit Ultras like Redwood are describing last week's vote as a 'third vote to leave'.

If we do leave on October 31, the UK will start to break up imo. Ireland first, then Scotland.

[Fife-Hibee]

Democracy is falling apart on 52% . If 1 side had got 60% we wouldnt be having these arguments , it would be clear cut and decisive .

The issue isn't the percentage of the result. It's the details behind what the result actually meant. Even if leave had won by 70%+ the same issues would still be apparent. There was no clear information on what "leave" actually meant.

[makaveli1875]

The issue isn't the percentage of the result. It's the details behind what the result actually meant. Even if leave had won by 70%+ the same issues would still be apparent. There was no clear information on what "leave" actually meant.

heres the dictionary definition of leave incase your in any doubt

"she left London on June 6"


synonyms:
depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from

[Fife-Hibee]

heres the dictionary definition of leave incase your in any doubt

"she left London on June 6"


synonyms:
depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from



Because it's that simple isn't it? "Leave means Leave" right? We just simply "leave". Never mind the details behind how we do that in a sensible manner, or the vision for our future relationships with Europe and the rest of the world. Nope, we just "leave". :rolleyes:

[grunt]

heres the dictionary definition of leave incase your in any doubt

"she left London on June 6"


synonyms:
depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from



You should be in the audience for the next #BBCQT

[JeMeSouviens]

heres the dictionary definition of leave incase your in any doubt

"she left London on June 6"


synonyms:
depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from



And the thing the UK was to "depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from" was membership of the EU. The government has negotiated something that clearly falls within that definition and the Leavers don't accept it as leaving. So **** them, call the whole nonsense off and move on.

[makaveli1875]

You should be in the audience for the next #BBCQT

Couldnt think of many worse ways to spend an evening .

[makaveli1875]

And the thing the UK was to "depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from" was membership of the EU. The government has negotiated something that clearly falls within that definition and the Leavers don't accept it as leaving. So **** them, call the whole nonsense off and move on.

The remainers dont accept it either , if they did the issue would be settled by now

[JeMeSouviens]

The remainers dont accept it either , if they did the issue would be settled by now

Almost all the Remainers in the Tory party did. It's Tory legislation to enact a Tory negotiated deal brought forward by a Tory government. If the Tories can't/won't deliver it then it's got **** all to do with anyone else. Hell mend them.

[Fife-Hibee]

The remainers dont accept it either , if they did the issue would be settled by now

Democracy isn't about accepting results. In fact, the exact opposite is true. It's the freedom to express one's views, even if they're in a minority. Remainers were never going to stop being remainers after the result. Just as indy supporters in Scotland were never going to stop being indy supporters in Scotland after the result. An open democracy allows for that.

[lord bunberry]

I think we’ll leave with no deal at the end of October. There will be an independence referendum soon after and Scotland will leave the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

It looks like compromise is well and truly dead.

So I think it'll play out like this:

- The Tories will have a renegotiate-or-no-deal leader in a few weeks.
- There'll be no renegotiation from the EU side so presumably they'll have to try for No Deal.
- No Deal still unlikely to get through with parliament's consent.
- I think there are enough non-lunatic Tories who will threaten to collapse the government.

Which leaves:

- a general election with the Tories for No deal and Labour/Lib/SNP for Remain

The fly in the ointment is old fascist Farage. He might be persuaded to stand down his mob if the new Tory leader commits to no deal (and would probably have to be offered a peerage or something as well :rolleyes:). If he doesn't, then a GE will be extremely hard for the Tories to win. In that circumstance it's just about conceivable there could be a No Deal vs Remain ref2. Brexit death match!

[Smartie]

Tories will have a new leader who will promise to "get tough" with the EU and get an improved deal.

Leader will attempt, and fail, to renegotiate deal.

Not sure if there will be a General Election at that point. If there is, victory is there and waiting for the Labour Party campaigning on a remain vote and the hard Brexit we all dread may be averted. If their numpty in charge cannot see what is right in front of him (which he might not) then god knows what might happen.

I don't think he'll get it and I think a hard Brexit is almost inevitable.

Scotland won't be allowed another referendum for at least a decade and frustration will rise.

The rest of the UK will get poorer post-Brexit, look for someone else to blame and notice that Scotland is a significant drain on their resources as our economy struggles without free movement within the EU.

Scotland will remain dependent for about another 10-15 years until we become a serious drain financially and emotionally on the UK and English anger has risen further, stoked by Farage in his next project.

We have another referendum.

The risks over using the pound/ bawbee/ euro become a risk worth taking and we become independent.

Hopefully the EU is still in existence then.

[grunt]

Scotland will remain dependent for about another 10-15 years until we become a serious drain financially and emotionally on the UK and English anger has risen further ...

Well you're a barrel of laughs today.

[Fife-Hibee]

Scotland:
"I've hud enough.... turn off the English life support machine."

[Smartie]

Well you're a barrel of laughs today.

Do you disagree?

[grunt]

Do you disagree?

It's not a case of agreeing or disagreeing. I just think it's a very depressing outlook.

[Smartie]

It's not a case of agreeing or disagreeing. I just think it's a very depressing outlook.

It really is.

I am genuinely concerned about the outlook for Scotland over the next decade or so and what any sort of Brexit might mean for us here.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Don't know yet. Too early to say whether Farageism has peaked. Despite more people having voted anti-Brexit than pro-Brexit, Brexit Ultras like Redwood are describing last week's vote as a 'third vote to leave'.

If we do leave on October 31, the UK will start to break up imo. Ireland first, then Scotland.

Not really true that though. Labour and Tory official policy is to support Brexit.

Corbyn is still sitting on the fence this morning. Labour members should be up in arms to get him booted out.

[Jack Hackett]

2h ago11:19 (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/may/26/european-elections-2019-results-eu-election-parliament-brexit-party-farage-tories-may-live?page=with:block-5cebb8848f08ad67f1a81cec#block-5cebb8848f08ad67f1a81cec)
UK: Corbyn says Brexit will have to go back to the public

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has been speaking to the BBC after last night’s poor election results for his party. The MP for Islington North said Labour had had a very clear Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum) policy all along, adding it was clear that the issue would have to be put to the public again in a general election or a public vote.

:faf:

Jez must have sore baws stradding his very clear policy

[JeMeSouviens]

:faf:

Jez must have sore baws stradding his very clear policy




Slightly o/t but when did it become a thing for politicians to defend notoriously unclear policy by banging on about how clear it is? Hopefully with May gone we are past peak-clarity. :rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

Not really true that though. Labour and Tory official policy is to support Brexit.
True. But their official policy was to support Brexit in the 2017 general election, leading to claims that because 82% voted for them, 82% want Brexit, claims which (I believe) are wholly false. So official policy is not a good knockdown indicator of the true position.


Corbyn is still sitting on the fence this morning. Labour members should be up in arms to get him booted out.
Amen to that.

[Jack Hackett]

Slightly o/t but when did it become a thing for politicians to defend notoriously unclear policy by banging on about how clear it is? Hopefully with May gone we are past peak-clarity. :rolleyes:

Whenever it started, she's clearly (:greengrin) up there with the most repetitive... and that's just up to January :rolleyes:


22074

... and that's just in Parliament

[Bangkok Hibby]

Whenever it started, she's clearly (:greengrin) up there with the most repetitive... and that's just up to January :rolleyes:


22074

... and that's just in Parliament

One of my very biggest pet hates with politicians (I have many) The word "clear" was never mentioned until about 15 years ago (I'm getting on and my memory may be playing tricks) when one bright spark PR person came up with the idea to insert the word into every interview so the thick public would believe what they were being told. As happens with buzz words in politics they've all latched onto it and it now just sounds utterly ridiculous. Another is "kick the can down the road" aaaarrgghhh!!

[SHODAN]

Get off the fence Corbyn or get out.

Unbelievable he's still doing this. Surely the grassroots members will push for a change now.

[RyeSloan]

Get off the fence Corbyn or get out.

Unbelievable he's still doing this. Surely the grassroots members will push for a change now.

What is his position (daft question I know!)?

As far as I can tell it’s that he still backs Brexit but will only call a second ref on a revised deal and only if that’s after a GE?

But he has no position on what happens without a GE?

[lapsedhibee]

What is his position (daft question I know!)?

As far as I can tell it’s that he still backs Brexit but will only call a second ref on a revised deal and only if that’s after a GE?

But he has no position on what happens without a GE?

He's previously said that if he can't get the deal Labour wants or a GE then he'll back a second ref, as that's the party policy.

[Ryan91]

What is his position (daft question I know!)?

As far as I can tell it’s that he still backs Brexit but will only call a second ref on a revised deal and only if that’s after a GE?

But he has no position on what happens without a GE?

His position is about as clear as mud.

[RyeSloan]

He's previously said that if he can't get the deal Labour wants or a GE then he'll back a second ref, as that's the party policy.

Hmm OK but neither of those things have happened and seem rather unlikely to do basically he has no position?

Ach I give up [emoji2957]

[Fife-Hibee]

What is his position (daft question I know!)?

As far as I can tell it’s that he still backs Brexit but will only call a second ref on a revised deal and only if that’s after a GE?

But he has no position on what happens without a GE?

He's actively doing his best to avoid becoming the next PM. As i've said before, he doesn't want to be in a position where he actually has to impliment what he preaches from the side lines.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hmm OK but neither of those things have happened and seem rather unlikely to do basically he has no position?

Ach I give up [emoji2957]

He's been perfectly clear! Honestly, some people ...

He wants a GE and a Labour Brexit but he supports a public vote (without specifying any of the options) being kept on the table to stop no deal or a "bad Tory" Brexit.

There, couldn't be clearer! :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

It looks like Lab are inching towards ref2

Corbyn in email to Lab MPs leaked to Sky -
"the deadlock in Parliament can now only be broken by the issue going back to the people through a general election or a public vote. We are ready to support a public vote on any deal"

McDonnell on camera to Sky -
"Of course we want a GE highly unlikely Tories will go for that now after the results last night. Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas. Our only option now is go back to the people in a referendum and that is the position we’re in now"

[RyeSloan]

He's been perfectly clear! Honestly, some people ...

He wants a GE and a Labour Brexit but he supports a public vote (without specifying any of the options) being kept on the table to stop no deal or a "bad Tory" Brexit.

There, couldn't be clearer! :agree:

That’s clarified nicely thanks [emoji2957]

[BroxburnHibee]

My thoughts are a 'No Deal' Tory leader is now a certainty.

Parliament will never endorse 'No Deal' but as its the default position I'd expect whoever the next PM is will take us to the cliff edge.

Will parliament Revoke rather than see that happen? No idea but a compromise such as a 2nd Referendum looks far off IMO.

[SHODAN]

My thoughts are a 'No Deal' Tory leader is now a certainty.

Parliament will never endorse 'No Deal' but as its the default position I'd expect whoever the next PM is will take us to the cliff edge.

Will parliament Revoke rather than see that happen? No idea but a compromise such as a 2nd Referendum looks far off IMO.

Remain vs No Deal. I'm just going to take the day off for the day after that one cause there's no way I'd be sleeping.

If we actually vote for no deal then goodnight UK, you're done.

[Smartie]

Remain vs No Deal. I'm just going to take the day off for the day after that one cause there's no way I'd be sleeping.

If we actually vote for no deal then goodnight UK, you're done.

I'm in no way a fan of a no deal Brexit but I've always thought that it would be preferable to embrace it (tackle the problems head on, pursue whichever opportunities it may present) and be led by people who 100% believe in it than to go for some sort of halfway fudge that is vastly inferior to what we already have, doesn't please the other side. doesn't afford us any opportunity and doesn't actually satisfy anyone.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm in no way a fan of a no deal Brexit but I've always thought that it would be preferable to embrace it (tackle the problems head on, pursue whichever opportunities it may present) and be led by people who 100% believe in it than to go for some sort of halfway fudge that is vastly inferior to what we already have, doesn't please the other side. doesn't afford us any opportunity and doesn't actually satisfy anyone.

The problem is that those at the front leading the fight for Brexit want nothing to do with the actual nitty gritty that involves making it a success.

[Mibbes Aye]

I would have to say that Ozyhibby called it right a while back.

In the circumstances we are in, any new Tory leader almost certainly is forced into a GE whether they want it or not.

Labour, under Yvette Cooper, standing on a slate of national unity to prevent Brexit and essentially forcing the Lib Dems and Greens to sign up formally or informally, trumps the Leave vote, especially when the Tories are riven. I think the only way they can appease all shades of pro-Leave is through someone like Raab, which automatically loses them their Remain voters and maybe some of the soft leavers. Anyone else is spinning plates and will lose votes to Farage in one direction and the Lib Dem’s in the other.

With Cable standing down, there is a big opportunity for Jo Swinson to propel herself forward. I think Ed Davey is tarnished more by association with the Coalition. Interesting times.

EDIT: and meant to add, Labour need to do the sensible thing and bin Jeremy and elect someone who is competent and electable, i.e. Yvonne Cooper

[lord bunberry]

I would have to say that Ozyhibby called it right a while back.

In the circumstances we are in, any new Tory leader almost certainly is forced into a GE whether they want it or not.

Labour, under Yvette Cooper, standing on a slate of national unity to prevent Brexit and essentially forcing the Lib Dems and Greens to sign up formally or informally, trumps the Leave vote, especially when the Tories are riven. I think the only way they can appease all shades of pro-Leave is through someone like Raab, which automatically loses them their Remain voters and maybe some of the soft leavers. Anyone else is spinning plates and will lose votes to Farage in one direction and the Lib Dem’s in the other.

With Cable standing down, there is a big opportunity for Jo Swinson to propel herself forward. I think Ed Davey is tarnished more by association with the Coalition. Interesting times.

EDIT: and meant to add, Labour need to do the sensible thing and bin Jeremy and elect someone who is competent and electable, i.e. Yvonne Cooper

I still can’t see there being a general election, the results from last night will have terrified the tories, it would be political suicide. We live in strange times though and absolutely nothing can be ruled in or out.

[Ozyhibby]

I still can’t see there being a general election, the results from last night will have terrified the tories, it would be political suicide. We live in strange times though and absolutely nothing can be ruled in or out.

If it looks like heading for no deal then there are enough Tory remainers willing to vote against the govt in a no confidence motion. A GE may not be what they want but they may not be able to avoid it if they go for no deal. If Johnson gets in I can see him trying to sell something very like May’s deal because he won’t want to be a PM that lasts only a couple of months.
Ask me tomorrow and I’ll tell you something else.[emoji23] It’s impossible to tell what’s going to happen. There are so many moving parts in this.


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[Hibbyradge]

When Thatcher was deposed as leader of the Tories, John Major was appointed as a patsy because of the expectation that Labour would win the next GE. Of course, Sheffield and "Well, all right" etc saw to it that Major did win, but I have a niggling thought that something similar might happen this time.

Maybe Fife-Hibees' fondness of all things conspiratorial has permeated my brain :wink: but I have a niggling idea that a cunning plan may be about to unfold.

Could the Tories appoint a sacrificial dark horse as PM who would call, and lose, a GE so that Labour can pull the plug on Brexit and then suffer the consequences if future polls?

Too much tin foil?

[Ozyhibby]

When Thatcher was deposed as leader of the Tories, John Major was appointed as a patsy because of the expectation that Labour would win the next GE. Of course, Sheffield and "Well, all right" etc saw to it that Major did win, but I have a niggling thought that something similar might happen this time.

Maybe Fife-Hibees' fondness of all things conspiratorial has permeated my brain :wink: but I have a niggling idea that a cunning plan may be about to unfold.

Could the Tories appoint a sacrificial dark horse as PM who would call, and lose, a GE so that Labour can pull the plug on Brexit and then suffer the consequences if future polls?

Too much tin foil?

That involves politicians losing their jobs, including Johnson. Unlikely. And it’s unlikely that is why Major won as well.


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[Hibbyradge]

That involves politicians losing their jobs, including Johnson. Unlikely. And it’s unlikely that is why Major won as well.


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I know it's unlikely, but the Tories will be expecting to lose seats next time out anyway, and they've still got Brexit to deal with.

May got the top job because no-one else wanted to touch Brexit. That particular poisoned chalice hasn't gone away and there's a lot more political blood to be spilled before it does.

The temptation to pass the responsibility to Labour must be great and the people who really control the Tory party are calculating strategists. A few casualties now might be a price worth paying in the longer term.

And here's the thing about conspiracy theories. The more you go down the rabbit hole, the more plausible the theory gets.

I've fair convinced myself. :hilarious

[Tornadoes70]

When Thatcher was deposed as leader of the Tories, John Major was appointed as a patsy because of the expectation that Labour would win the next GE. Of course, Sheffield and "Well, all right" etc saw to it that Major did win, but I have a niggling thought that something similar might happen this time.

Maybe Fife-Hibees' fondness of all things conspiratorial has permeated my brain :wink: but I have a niggling idea that a cunning plan may be about to unfold.

Could the Tories appoint a sacrificial dark horse as PM who would call, and lose, a GE so that Labour can pull the plug on Brexit and then suffer the consequences if future polls?

Too much tin foil?

I think may was supposed to be that very patsy but she ended up embroiled in some weird half in half out deal that suited very few of the tory half wits.

Every party has folk devising deep thinker stratagem with worst case scenarios part of any planning.

Jeremy decided sitting on the fence was our plan for now which wasn't the worst by any means. Gives us scope for whatever materialises abeit not everyone agrees.

[Hibbyradge]

I think may was supposed to be that very patsy but she ended up embroiled in some weird half in half out deal that suited very few of the tory half wits.

Every party has folk devising deep thinker stratagem with worst case scenarios part of any planning.

Jeremy decided sitting on the fence was our plan for now which wasn't the worst by any means. Gives us scope for whatever materialises abeit not everyone agrees.

Jeremy fence sitting has delivered the worst election results for his party ever at a time when the Tories fared even worse.

I don't know whether to admire your loyalty or pity your stubborn refusal to recognise the truth.

[lord bunberry]

If it looks like heading for no deal then there are enough Tory remainers willing to vote against the govt in a no confidence motion. A GE may not be what they want but they may not be able to avoid it if they go for no deal. If Johnson gets in I can see him trying to sell something very like May’s deal because he won’t want to be a PM that lasts only a couple of months.
Ask me tomorrow and I’ll tell you something else.[emoji23] It’s impossible to tell what’s going to happen. There are so many moving parts in this.


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If there’s a general election after a no confidence vote, who would be speaking and negotiating for the country? Is it not possible that we could fall out with no deal due to us running out of time to get a new government elected? I’m not old enough to remember what happened the last time there was a no confidence vote, so I’ve genuinely no idea.

[Tornadoes70]

Jeremy fence sitting has delivered the worst election results for his party ever at a time when the Tories fared even worse.

I don't know whether to admire your loyalty or pity your stubborn refusal to recognise the truth.

If a general election were to be called Jeremy would be the next PM. I'm in no doubt whatsoever about that sooner or later.

[Ozyhibby]

Jeremy fence sitting has delivered the worst election results for his party ever at a time when the Tories fared even worse.

I don't know whether to admire your loyalty or pity your stubborn refusal to recognise the truth.

That’s the 4th set of elections he has lost as party leader including losing the Theresa May in a GE. And still the Labour Party keep him. Seems they would rather be a party of protest rather than power. He is unelectable.


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[Ozyhibby]

If a general election were called Jeremy would be the next PM. I'm in no doubt whatsoever about that.

He’s already lost one and that was to Theresa May ffs.


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[Moulin Yarns]

If a general election were to be called Jeremy would be the next PM. I'm in no doubt whatsoever about that sooner or later.

Nigel.

[The Modfather]

If a general election were to be called Jeremy would be the next PM. I'm in no doubt whatsoever about that sooner or later.

What is that confidence based on? The voting public don’t seem to see the long game he is playing.

I can see the parallels between Corbyn & Arsene Wenger in the second half of his time at Arsenal. Wenger didn’t move with the times, stuck rigidly to his footballing philosophy and was left behind as a dinosaur when football evolved and he didn’t. Becoming not relevant when it came to winning and competing for the big trophies.

[Tornadoes70]

What is that confidence based on? The voting public don’t seem to see the long game he is playing.

I can see the parallels between Corbyn & Arsene Wenger in the second half of his time at Arsenal. Wenger didn’t move with the times, stuck rigidly to his footballing philosophy and was left behind as a dinosaur when football evolved and he didn’t. Becoming not relevant when it came to winning and competing for the big trophies.

Using football analogies on a politics thread, wow, HR will be along any minute taking issue that we're not proper debaters :greengrin.

Correct, Jeremy is traditional Labour and is very strong on delivering public services and an economy that works for the many not the few.

Separatism would deliver massive cuts to public services while devastating the Scottish economy for some time thereafter and who knows when the economy would pick up again. The poorest in Scotland would be hardest hit as those with money could either move physically or move their money to safer havens. If that doesn't matter to you by all means carry on regardless.

[Phil MaGlass]

I think we’ll leave with no deal at the end of October. There will be an independence referendum soon after and Scotland will leave the UK.

This, especially if Boris becomes PM

[The Modfather]

Using football analogies on a politics thread, wow, HR will be along any minute taking issue that we're not proper debaters :greengrin.

Correct, Jeremy is traditional Labour and is very strong on delivering public services and an economy that works for the many not the few.

Separatism would deliver massive cuts to public services while devastating the Scottish economy for some time thereafter and who knows when the economy would pick up again. The poorest in Scotland would be hardest hit as those with money could either move physically or move their money to safer havens. If that doesn't matter to you by all means carry on regardless.

Your thoughts on Scottish Independence are well noted on here, but unless you’re saying he will win a general election because Scottish independence is bad, it’s of no relevance to why he would win a general election.

I was curious why the trend is for Labour to get fewer and fewer votes but you’re still confident he would win a general election? What would make the masses who aren’t voting for a Labour now suddenly vote for him to become the next PM?

[Fife-Hibee]

When Thatcher was deposed as leader of the Tories, John Major was appointed as a patsy because of the expectation that Labour would win the next GE. Of course, Sheffield and "Well, all right" etc saw to it that Major did win, but I have a niggling thought that something similar might happen this time.

Maybe Fife-Hibees' fondness of all things conspiratorial has permeated my brain :wink: but I have a niggling idea that a cunning plan may be about to unfold.

Could the Tories appoint a sacrificial dark horse as PM who would call, and lose, a GE so that Labour can pull the plug on Brexit and then suffer the consequences if future polls?

Too much tin foil?

Now you're starting to get it. :wink:

However, I don't see Labour pulling the plug on Brexit. Both parties don't want to be the next party in government to deal with any of this mess. It's no coincidence that the popularity of both parties are at rock bottom, neither wants to form the next government. It's a poisoned chalice and they both know it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I know it's unlikely, but the Tories will be expecting to lose seats next time out anyway, and they've still got Brexit to deal with.

May got the top job because no-one else wanted to touch Brexit. That particular poisoned chalice hasn't gone away and there's a lot more political blood to be spilled before it does.

The temptation to pass the responsibility to Labour must be great and the people who really control the Tory party are calculating strategists. A few casualties now might be a price worth paying in the longer term.

And here's the thing about conspiracy theories. The more you go down the rabbit hole, the more plausible the theory gets.

I've fair convinced myself. :hilarious

I think that might be true if they thought Labour had what they would consider a sensible Blairite in charge. They are petrified of Corbyn and McDonnell though. Not in electoral terms, but what they might do if they get into power.

[Hibbyradge]

Using football analogies on a politics thread, wow, HR will be along any minute taking issue that we're not proper debaters :greengrin.


It's not like you to miss the point, but I'll exclude you from my generalisation about debaters.

You're clearly a Master.

[ancient hibee]

The only thing certain about that election is that the vast majority of the electorate exercised their democratic choice to stay at home and have nothing to do with it.I read someone in the Scottish Government saying Scotland has spoken and the SNP has shown the way-16% of the electorate-wow.

[Ozyhibby]

The only thing certain about that election is that the vast majority of the electorate exercised their democratic choice to stay at home and have nothing to do with it.I read someone in the Scottish Government saying Scotland has spoken and the SNP has shown the way-16% of the electorate-wow.

Since when did we start counting the votes of people who didn’t vote? And specifically counting them for one side or the other? If you don’t vote it doesn’t matter what you think.


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[James310]

Since when did we start counting the votes of people who didn’t vote? And specifically counting them for one side or the other? If you don’t vote it doesn’t matter what you think.


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So much for Scotland was engaged in politics though?

It was actually less than 15% of eligible voters that voted SNP, but Scotland has spoken, all 15% of them.

[Hibbyradge]

So much for Scotland was engaged in politics though?

It was actually less than 15% of eligible voters that voted SNP, but Scotland has spoken, all 15% of them.

That's a pretty good sample though.

[SHODAN]

So much for Scotland was engaged in politics though?

It was actually less than 15% of eligible voters that voted SNP, but Scotland has spoken, all 15% of them.

If anything, this strengthens the argument for mandatory voting laws. Politicians couldn't wriggle out of the "oh but it's not a representative sample" argument any more.

Of course, whilst the current government is in power this won't happen, because the demographics most likely to vote are on the whole partisan voters for them.

[JeMeSouviens]

John Bercow on whether parliament has a means to stop no deal:


"The House will have its say. The idea that Parliament is going to be evacuated from the centre stage of debate on Brexit is unimaginable. It is simply unimaginable."

[Bangkok Hibby]

John Bercow on whether parliament has a means to stop no deal:

I like this guy. Looking forward to his autobiography

[Ozyhibby]

So much for Scotland was engaged in politics though?

It was actually less than 15% of eligible voters that voted SNP, but Scotland has spoken, all 15% of them.

Oh, so we are counting people who don’t vote for your side now. [emoji23] I suppose when you poll 12% or less you have to try something.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Oh, so we are counting people who don’t vote for your side now. [emoji23] I suppose when you poll 12% or less you have to try something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Updated Tory figure for today's new Holy Ground reality - 4.7% :wink:

[HappyAsHellas]

A tory remainer mp on the radio yesterday said he would not vote with a vote of no confidence even if it meant leaving with no deal, as anything was better for the UK than a Corbyn government. Faced with losing his job, a politician will do anything he can to stay on the gravy train. People imagining that a no deal scenario would be voted down by conservatives have to realise that this would mean relying on a tory with a conscience - a very rare breed indeed.

[James310]

Oh, so we are counting people who don’t vote for your side now. [emoji23] I suppose when you poll 12% or less you have to try something.


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All parties obviously had low %s of eligible voters when turnout was so low, but I keep hearing how Scotland is engaged with politics etc when that clearly is not the case. If the 'winning' party has less than 15% of the eligibile votes then I am not sure we can read too much into it.

[Peevemor]

All parties obviously had low %s of eligible voters when turnout was so low, but I keep hearing how Scotland is engaged with politics etc when that clearly is not the case. If the 'winning' party has less than 15% of the eligibile votes then I am not sure we can read too much into it.

Crikey. Traditionally the turnout is crap for European elections, but any excuse to trash the SNP eh?

And even with a low turnout, the results give a more accurate representation of the moood of the country than any opinion poll and quite clearly the majority in Scotland support staying in the EU and have no faith in neither Labour nor the Tories.

[JeMeSouviens]

Crikey. Traditionally the turnout is crap for European elections, but any excuse to trash the SNP eh?

And even with a low turnout, the results give a more accurate representation of the moood of the country than any opinion poll and quite clearly the majority in Scotland support staying in the EU and have no faith in neither Labour nor the Tories.

Perhaps these might be useful ...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3487/4022812485_f4a9f33406.jpg

[James310]

Crikey. Traditionally the turnout is crap for European elections, but any excuse to trash the SNP eh?

And even with a low turnout, the results give a more accurate representation of the moood of the country than any opinion poll and quite clearly the majority in Scotland support staying in the EU and have no faith in neither Labour nor the Tories.

Well the mood of the nation suggests Indy has not moved at all since 2014. Even after Nicola Sturgeon saying vote for the SNP in these elections even if you are against Indy. So despite the absolute shambles of the last few years no further forward.

[Peevemor]

Well the mood of the nation suggests Indy has not moved at all since 2014. Even after Nicola Sturgeon saying vote for the SNP in these elections even if you are against Indy. So despite the absolute shambles of the last few years no further forward.

That's your take on it, as long as it helps you feel better.

[James310]

That's your take on it, as long as it helps you feel better.

What's your take?

[lapsedhibee]

A tory remainer mp on the radio yesterday said he would not vote with a vote of no confidence even if it meant leaving with no deal, as anything was better for the UK than a Corbyn government. Faced with losing his job, a politician will do anything he can to stay on the gravy train. People imagining that a no deal scenario would be voted down by conservatives have to realise that this would mean relying on a tory with a conscience - a very rare breed indeed.
Pity he wasn't also asked what he would do if there was no chance of a Corbyn government, ie if Labour had a proper leader in place.

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps these might be useful ...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3487/4022812485_f4a9f33406.jpg

… not sure they would, as they are - or are about to be - illegal here.

[JeMeSouviens]

… not sure they would, as they are - or are about to be - illegal here.

Sheesh! Mr Picky :rolleyes:

Ok, just for you ...

https://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/600/5010326113600/IDShot_540x540.jpg

[lapsedhibee]

Sheesh! Mr Picky :rolleyes:

Ok, just for you ...

https://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/600/5010326113600/IDShot_540x540.jpg

That's more like it.

Mon Green.

[Peevemor]

What's your take?For me it's pretty clear that the Scottish electorate are losing any little faith they had left in the big 2 Westminster parties. The reasons are numerous and obvious, but above all I think the total disregard and lack of respect shown by Corbyn, May et al toward the will of the majority of Scots has come back to bite their bums.

[James310]

For me it's pretty clear that the Scottish electorate are losing any little faith they had left in the big 2 Westminster parties. The reasons are numerous and obvious, but above all I think the total disregard and lack of respect shown by Corbyn, May et al toward the will of the majority of Scots has come back to bite their bums.

Do you think the vote shows an increased appetite for Indy as the SNP are today claiming? I don't see that myself. Ian Blackford saying the result has 'cemented' the case for IndyRef2 but why?

[Fife-Hibee]

Well the mood of the nation suggests Indy has not moved at all since 2014. Even after Nicola Sturgeon saying vote for the SNP in these elections even if you are against Indy. So despite the absolute shambles of the last few years no further forward.

You're making a glaring error equating the EU result to how an Indy Ref would pan out. It suits the "nothing has changed, no point in having one" narrative.

[James310]

You're making a glaring error equating the EU result to how an Indy Ref would pan out. It suits the "nothing has changed, no point in having one" narrative.

It's not me saying it 'cements' the requirement for IndyRef2 though, it's Ian Blackford.

[Peevemor]

Do you think the vote shows an increased appetite for Indy as the SNP are today claiming? I don't see that myself. Ian Blackford saying the result has 'cemented' the case for IndyRef2 but why?Politicians, including those of the SNP, will spin any result to their advantage. It's up to the voting public to remain as informed as possible.

The European elections can only be compared with the results of previous European elections.

For example, I voted Green (there's no SNP in Brittany), but I wouldn't necessarily do so in a national election.

In any case, the pro-indy parties came out on top of those who voted. Of course the SNP are going to milk that.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's not me saying it 'cements' the requirement for IndyRef2 though, it's Ian Blackford.

IndyRef2 was already cemented when the SNP went back to Westminster with a majority of seats with a referendum commitment in their manifesto. The European election simply shows the stark difference in the directions Scotland and rUK are taking.

[BroxburnHibee]

I intended this thread to be a discussion on the 31/10 deadline and the likelihood of it happening.

[JeMeSouviens]

I intended this thread to be a discussion on the 31/10 deadline and the likelihood of it happening.

Vanishingly unlikely I think.

[Bostonhibby]

What is his position (daft question I know!)?

As far as I can tell it’s that he still backs Brexit but will only call a second ref on a revised deal and only if that’s after a GE?

But he has no position on what happens without a GE?He's the slightly vague hesitant guy with the beard who normally sits somewhere near Dianne Abbott.

Sadly the current manifestation of the party I've always supported is rudderless, leaderless and lost touch with a fair percentage of it's natural support who are not part of the activist movement steering it down a path of irrelevance to everyone but themselves.

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[ancient hibee]

Since when did we start counting the votes of people who didn’t vote? And specifically counting them for one side or the other? If you don’t vote it doesn’t matter what you think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As you clearly weren’t able to understand my original post I’ll try again.I wasn’t
apportioning the votes of those who didn’t vote but merely pointing out that the vast majority didn’t choose to vote at all and that therefore the votes for any party were a minuscule part of the electorate and to extrapolate from that any kind of overall view was silly.

[grunt]

I intended this thread to be a discussion on the 31/10 deadline and the likelihood of it happening.

Good luck with that. Unless you ban him from the thread, our 310 chum will turn every discussion into one about how bad the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon are.

On topic, here's a nice positive thread from twitter.
https://twitter.com/staedtler/status/1133423541704101888?s=21

[James310]

Good luck with that. Unless you ban him from the thread, our 310 chum will turn every discussion into one about how bad the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon are.

On topic, here's a nice positive thread from twitter.
https://twitter.com/staedtler/status/1133423541704101888?s=21

You are a charmer, do you live up to your name?

How silly of me to post about the EU elections on a Brexit thread, of course they are totally unrelated. And again about IndyRef2 when the leader of the SNP also commented on it and linked it to Brexit.

I would say you turn everything into a SNP love in but actually I have no clue what you post so it must be pretty irrelevant.

[Fife-Hibee]

You are a charmer, do you live up to your name?

How silly of me to post about the EU elections on a Brexit thread, of course they are totally unrelated. And again about IndyRef2 when the leader of the SNP also commented on it and linked it to Brexit.

I would say you turn everything into a SNP love in but actually I have no clue what you post so it must be pretty irrelevant.

Why don't you just admit that you would never ever back the independence of the country you live in under any circumstance?

Trident could go off tomorrow, taking out half of Scotland and you would be on here giving us all a speech on how it brings us all closer together.

[James310]

Why don't you just admit that you would never ever back the independence of the country you live in under any circumstance?

Trident could go off tomorrow, taking out half of Scotland and you would be on here giving us all a speech on how it brings us all closer together.

No I wouldn't, I would be dead.

[Fife-Hibee]

No I wouldn't, I would be dead.

Oh well. At least you won't have to experience the sheer horrors of a country making it's own choices.

[JeMeSouviens]

Oh well. At least you won't have to experience the sheer horrors of a country making it's own choices.

He doesn’t think Scotland is or should be a country. It’s a completely different mindset.

[Moulin Yarns]

As you clearly weren’t able to understand my original post I’ll try again.I wasn’t
apportioning the votes of those who didn’t vote but merely pointing out that the vast majority didn’t choose to vote at all and that therefore the votes for any party were a minuscule part of the electorate and to extrapolate from that any kind of overall view was silly.



Ain't democracy a bitch

[degenerated]

John Bercow on whether parliament has a means to stop no deal:Interesting and slightly concerning article

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/new-prime-minister-intent-no-deal-brexit-cant-be-stopped-mps-0

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[Bishop Hibee]

In the mad political world at present, I actually found myself agreeing with Malcolm Rifkind who was on the BBC News Channel earlier today. He was making the point that as the Conservative Partly had failed to agree Brexit and then Parliament had failed to agree Brexit then there must be a second vote. He made it clear he was speaking as someone who had been very much against a second vote but as both his own party and Parliament had made a complete arse of things, this was the only answer. If someone like him is supporting a second referendum, the tide is definitely turning. I therefore voted that we would not leave on 31.10.19.

[RyeSloan]

In the mad political world at present, I actually found myself agreeing with Malcolm Rifkind who was on the BBC News Channel earlier today. He was making the point that as the Conservative Partly had failed to agree Brexit and then Parliament had failed to agree Brexit then there must be a second vote. He made it clear he was speaking as someone who had been very much against a second vote but as both his own party and Parliament had made a complete arse of things, this was the only answer. If someone like him is supporting a second referendum, the tide is definitely turning. I therefore voted that we would not leave on 31.10.19.

It’s a fair point but what happens when if we have a second ref and the answer is the same? Or would there be a multiple choice question that gives no overall majority to any option?

Or if it’s leave with a deal but not this deal (The Corbyn option?) would Barnier tell the UK to bolt again on a renegotiation?

A second vote is somehow touted as a panacea but it could easily lead to just more nonsense....

[Peevemor]

It’s a fair point but what happens when if we have a second ref and the answer is the same? Or would there be a multiple choice question that gives no overall majority to any option?

Or if it’s leave with a deal but not this deal (The Corbyn option?) would Barnier tell the UK to bolt again on a renegotiation?

A second vote is somehow touted as a panacea but it could easily lead to just more nonsense....The difference with a second vote is that people will have a better idea what they're voting for/against.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a fair point but what happens when if we have a second ref and the answer is the same? Or would there be a multiple choice question that gives no overall majority to any option?

Or if it’s leave with a deal but not this deal (The Corbyn option?) would Barnier tell the UK to bolt again on a renegotiation?

A second vote is somehow touted as a panacea but it could easily lead to just more nonsense....

A second vote will need to be a straight choice between WTO and Remain. The brexiteers have not managed to negotiate a deal so at least we will know exactly what we are voting for.


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[grunt]

A second vote will need to be a straight choice between WTO and Remain. The brexiteers have not managed to negotiate a deal so at least we will know exactly what we are voting for.


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Do people know what WTO will be like? There's a huge number who seem to think that it will be fine.

[jonty]

A second vote will need to be a straight choice between WTO and Remain. The brexiteers have not managed to negotiate a deal so at least we will know exactly what we are voting for.


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They have managed to negotiate a deal.

We knew we’d have to negotiate a deal to leave, why is it we suddenly think we can shove two fingers up and do what we like. We agreed to the process when we joined didn’t we? If another country was doing this we’d be going nuts.

[RyeSloan]

A second vote will need to be a straight choice between WTO and Remain. The brexiteers have not managed to negotiate a deal so at least we will know exactly what we are voting for.


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No there is a deal on the table. One that got (in the end) quite a few MP’s to vote for it. Not sure you can simply discard it and not give people the option to vote for it.

Which is kind of my point. A second vote is touted as the way out but I’m not even sure people can agree what that second vote should or would be!

No matter what would happen if the result was mega close or didn’t land heavily on remain...

[Jack]

No there is a deal on the table. One that got (in the end) quite a few MP’s to vote for it. Not sure you can simply discard it and not give people the option to vote for it.

Which is kind of my point. A second vote is touted as the way out but I’m not even sure people can agree what that second vote should or would be!

No matter what would happen if the result was mega close or didn’t land heavily on remain...


The original vote was leave or stay. Mays deal is the leave option.

In my opinion the vote would have to be between Mays deal or remain.

[JeMeSouviens]

No there is a deal on the table. One that got (in the end) quite a few MP’s to vote for it. Not sure you can simply discard it and not give people the option to vote for it.

Which is kind of my point. A second vote is touted as the way out but I’m not even sure people can agree what that second vote should or would be!

No matter what would happen if the result was mega close or didn’t land heavily on remain...

Have a Brexit run off, deal v no deal. Then take the chosen Brexit option to a final confirmation v Remain. Hold them a week apart like the French do with their presidential election.

[JeMeSouviens]

Actually I think parliament should just say the whole thing’s pish, revoke and save months/years of turmoil. Sighs of relief all round.

[grunt]

Actually I think parliament should just say the whole thing’s pish, revoke and save months/years of turmoil. Sighs of relief all round.

This.

Government should do what it's supposed to do - lead the country and do what's best for the country.

[Sylar]

Actually I think parliament should just say the whole thing’s pish, revoke and save months/years of turmoil. Sighs of relief all round.

Would result in riots, not relief.

Followed by years of antagonistic politics, social division, a fuelled far-right and civil unrest.

[JeMeSouviens]

Would result in riots, not relief.

Followed by years of antagonistic politics, social division, a fuelled far-right and civil unrest.

The people who say there'll be riots also said there'd be riots if we didn't leave by March 29th. So far, no riots.

All the other stuff is coming anyway, and imo will find much more fertile conditions in a no deal Brexit scenario. (Basically Weimar Germany-lite).

[Fife-Hibee]

The people who say there'll be riots also said there'd be riots if we didn't leave by March 29th. So far, no riots.

All the other stuff is coming anyway, and imo will find much more fertile conditions in a no deal Brexit scenario. (Basically Weimar Germany-lite).

No. People said there would be riots if the public were told that Brexit was cancelled by March 29th. It's be drawn out longer, but those who voted Leave still fully expect us to do so.

Regardless of what happens next, there's going to be riots. Which is why parliament is struggling to piece any real solution together.

[marinello59]

Michael Gove to win the Tory leadership contest. He’ll go to Brussels with May’s deal, get it tweaked a bit and it will go through Parliament this time.
Anybody here plannning to riot if that happens? I’m not sure whether to take part or just watch it on the TV. I’m assuming it will be live unless it kicks off at a stupid time.

[Fife-Hibee]

Michael Gove to win the Tory leadership contest. He’ll go to Brussels with May’s deal, get it tweaked a bit and it will go through Parliament this time.
Anybody here plannning to riot if that happens? I’m not sure whether to take part or just watch it on the TV. I’m assuming it will be live unless it kicks off at a stupid time.

Just the mere thought of that slimy wee cretin becoming the next PM is enough to make me lose my ****. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Michael Gove to win the Tory leadership contest. He’ll go to Brussels with May’s deal, get it tweaked a bit and it will go through Parliament this time.
Anybody here plannning to riot if that happens? I’m not sure whether to take part or just watch it on the TV. I’m assuming it will be live unless it kicks off at a stupid time.


I don't think he'll get to the final 2 but even if he did he has not much chance with the membership due to his brass necked backstabbing last time.

Edit: actually I could be talking bollocks ("NO", I here you gasp!). Here's the latest ConHome survey of Tory members:

https://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-29-at-08.31.02.png

[Ozyhibby]

Give is probably the only one capable of getting something through. The rest will go for hard brexit and fail and we will end up with a GE.


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[Smartie]

Gove is a repulsive little turd of a man.

I'm never really going to be overly positive about any candidate for the leadership of the Tory party, but the idea of him as PM really turns my stomach.

[grunt]

Followed by years of antagonistic politics, social division, a fuelled far-right and civil unrest.

That's coming whatever happens.

[Ozyhibby]

No there is a deal on the table. One that got (in the end) quite a few MP’s to vote for it. Not sure you can simply discard it and not give people the option to vote for it.

Which is kind of my point. A second vote is touted as the way out but I’m not even sure people can agree what that second vote should or would be!

No matter what would happen if the result was mega close or didn’t land heavily on remain...

There is a deal on the table but the brexiteers did not vote for it. It’s up to them to now put their WTO brexit up against remain.


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[SHODAN]

Gove is a repulsive little turd of a man.

I'm never really going to be overly positive about any candidate for the leadership of the Tory party, but the idea of him as PM really turns my stomach.

Two weeks ago I'd agree with you, but honestly, given his softening stance and the other candidates I'd probably take him as the "compromise" candidate right now.

Plus, the public hate him and he'd lose a GE/fuel support for independence.

[Fife-Hibee]

Judge rules that Boris Johnson must stand trial for telling porkies in the brexit campaign. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR3cZXq9PxOm1AKH_3RN9itF--Xd_14d1-IdWFZrsWzx31cMb-CE00qQDw8

[Moulin Yarns]

Judge rules that Boris Johnson must stand trial for telling porkies in the brexit campaign. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR3cZXq9PxOm1AKH_3RN9itF--Xd_14d1-IdWFZrsWzx31cMb-CE00qQDw8

Where's daffy duck when you need him 😉

Price of popcorn will increase

[JeMeSouviens]

Judge rules that Boris Johnson must stand trial for telling porkies in the brexit campaign. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR3cZXq9PxOm1AKH_3RN9itF--Xd_14d1-IdWFZrsWzx31cMb-CE00qQDw8

Stand by for industrial scale irony about Brave Boris of Eton & Oxford taking on the Establishment Elite. FFS.
It will probably boost his campaign.

[Moulin Yarns]

Stand by for industrial scale irony about Brave Boris of Eton & Oxford taking on the Establishment Elite. FFS.
It will probably boost his campaign.

I'm wondering if having a criminal case against him will not make his bid invalid?

[Bostonhibby]

Two weeks ago I'd agree with you, but honestly, given his softening stance and the other candidates I'd probably take him as the "compromise" candidate right now.

Plus, the public hate him and he'd lose a GE/fuel support for independence.Am thinking the same way, live in a pro brexit area with a massive tory parliamentary majority-they'd return a horse as MP if one got the nomination.

There's quite a few of the elderly party members who will ultimately select our PM round here, and my take on it is they're talking anyone but Boris who is a long term liability, and Gove seems well thought of, they probably think he's a nice young man.!

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[Fife-Hibee]

Stand by for industrial scale irony about Brave Boris of Eton & Oxford taking on the Establishment Elite. FFS.
It will probably boost his campaign.

Considering the utterly bonkers political landscape, that wouldn't shock me at all. Cue Tommy Robinson levels of paranoia from Boris Johnson, echoed throughout the British right-wing media.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm wondering if having a criminal case against him will not make his bid invalid?

The question is really when will the case come to court and the outcome known.


A by-election is held if a seat becomes vacant during the lifetime of a Parliament, either when an MP resigns from the House of Commons, or because an MP has died. The law also allows a seat to be declared vacant because of a Member's bankruptcy, mental illness or conviction for a serious criminal offence.
A by-election does not automatically take place if an MP changes political party.
Until a new MP is elected, constituency matters are handled by an MP of the same party in a neighbouring constituency.



Imagine for a moment Mr Johnstone is elected as leader of the Conservative Party, and then a short while later is found guilty, a crime which can carry life imprisonment, and we have to go through the whole thing again?

[Smartie]

If any good can come out of this whole sorry affair, might it be someone as high-profile as Johnson being held to account for the utter bollocks that was spouted meaning that in future politicians need to be a bit more careful about what they promise?

[Fife-Hibee]

The question is really when will the case come to court and the outcome known.



Imagine for a moment Mr Johnstone is elected as leader of the Conservative Party, and then a short while later is found guilty, a crime which can carry life imprisonment, and we have to go through the whole thing again?

Not a chance will that happen. Tony Blair proved you can walk out of court grinning regardles of your crimes, as long as you're high profile enough.

[marinello59]

Not a chance will that happen. Tony Blair proved you can walk out of court grinning regardles of your crimes, as long as you're high profile enough.

What was Blair convicted of? :confused:

[degenerated]

What was Blair convicted of? :confused:

I think that's the point he was making :agree:

[marinello59]

I think that's the point he was making :agree:

What was he charged with ? I don’t remember any pictures of him walking out of court grinning.

[Fife-Hibee]

What was he charged with ? I don’t remember any pictures of him walking out of court grinning.

It was a figure of speech. If Boris Johnson becomes the next PM, he will be untouchable. Just like the queen, the laws need not apply.

[Moulin Yarns]

It was a figure of speech. If Boris Johnson becomes the next PM, he will be untouchable. Just like the queen, the laws need not apply.

Careful, you can't call Johnston a queen, you will feel the wrath of some posters on here. :wink:

[lord bunberry]

Lots of tories seem to be talking about a managed no deal using something called article 20. Is this complete bollocks or is there something in it?

[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of tories seem to be talking about a managed no deal using something called article 20. Is this complete bollocks or is there something in it?

I think article 20 is to do with EU citizenship. No idea how that would change anything.

[JeMeSouviens]

Lots of tories seem to be talking about a managed no deal using something called article 20. Is this complete bollocks or is there something in it?

If you mean GATT article 24 it's (surprise!) total bollocks.

https://uktradeforum.net/2019/01/26/why-claims-about-a-wto-article-24-interim-agreement-are-a-red-herring/

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/12/27/myth-of-10-year-grace-period/



By Peter Ungphakorn

What’s going on here? To sum up

The 10-year period was designed for countries setting up free trade from scratch, not weakening integration.
For Brexit, citing it is unnecessary because it isn’t needed
Citing it also adds unnecessary complications
Or to put it another way, if the UK does cite it, it will face three hurdles:

The UK would have to reach agreement with the EU. The UK could not do this unilaterally. So this isn’t exactly “no deal”.
That agreement would have to include a plan and timetable for achieving the final agreement. And it would have to have a sufficient amount of detail, including what the final agreement would look like, because …
… the WTO membership could demand changes, if they weren’t convinced that the plan could be achieved within about 10 years. The UK and EU would have to accept those changes or scrap the agreement. (This doesn’t apply to free trade agreements that are not interim.)
In other words, the 10-year “grace period” has been used to cite WTO rules incorrectly by people who only have a superficial understanding of the rules.

[lord bunberry]

If you mean GATT article 24 it's (surprise!) total bollocks.

https://uktradeforum.net/2019/01/26/why-claims-about-a-wto-article-24-interim-agreement-are-a-red-herring/

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/12/27/myth-of-10-year-grace-period/
That was it, couldn’t remember the number :greengrin
To be honest I thought it all sounded to good to be true.

[degenerated]

What was he charged with ? I don’t remember any pictures of him walking out of court grinning.

I assumed it was more a literal reference relating to the Iraq Enquiry

[Jack Hackett]

Stand by for industrial scale irony about Brave Boris of Eton & Oxford taking on the Establishment Elite. FFS.
It will probably boost his campaign.

The irony has already started. Boris's argument against the case was that the prosecution is a 'political stunt'... which is totally not what his big red bus was :rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

The irony has already started. Boris's argument against the case was that the prosecution is a 'political stunt'... which is totally not what his big red bus was :rolleyes:

Prediction:
Somewhere along the line a magistrate will call him a glib and shameless liar. Johnston's fans will claim a kafflik conspiracy, ignore the finding, and he'll still be their darling.

Farage may benefit by beginning to seem, comparatively, upright and honest.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/opinion/nigel-farage-brexit.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/opinion/nigel-farage-brexit.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Thanks for sharing that. It’s ensured me a depressing end to a rubbish day!

[Hibbyradge]

Thanks for sharing that. It’s ensured me a depressing end to a rubbish day!

Sorry GL. 😥

[Hibbyradge]

This is an interesting piece which suggests that the reality is starting to hit home ...

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2019/05/daniel-hannan-the-tory-catch-22-we-cant-face-an-election-before-brexit-but-we-may-not-get-brexit-without-an-election.html

[Killiehibbie]

I'm wondering if having a criminal case against him will not make his bid invalid?
I'm sure there are jobs you can't apply for if there are criminal proceedings against you. This should be one of them, i'd go as far as never let him work again.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/rupertmyers/status/1133966733486755840?s=21

I don’t think this guy has a chance of winning the Tory leadership as they are moving to the far right but he should.
Speaks well on the perils of no deal here.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/rupertmyers/status/1133966733486755840?s=21

I don’t think this guy has a chance of winning the Tory leadership as they are moving to the far right but he should.
Speaks well on the perils of no deal here.


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I posted the same thing on the Tories thread. He has also admitted to smoking opium at a wedding in Iran. Inhaled and everything. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

I posted the same thing on the Tories thread. He has also admitted to smoking opium at a wedding in Iran. Inhaled and everything. :wink:

He is exactly what they need and if they did go for him and he manages some sort of brexit deal then he would wipe the floor with Corbyn.
It’s just the sort of thing the Tories always manage to do so maybe he does stand a chance. His popularity will grow over the next few weeks as he gets more air time and Tories start to think about electability as well as brexit. They have a keen sense of self preservation the Tories.


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[JeMeSouviens]

He is exactly what they need and if they did go for him and he manages some sort of brexit deal then he would wipe the floor with Corbyn.
It’s just the sort of thing the Tories always manage to do so maybe he does stand a chance. His popularity will grow over the next few weeks as he gets more air time and Tories start to think about electability as well as brexit. They have a keen sense of self preservation the Tories.


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They used to before they went mad over Europe. Not sure the self preservation instinct is very strong any more.

[Ozyhibby]

They used to before they went mad over Europe. Not sure the self preservation instinct is very strong any more.

True, someone like him would be no good for the SNP anyway. Far better if Boris is in charge.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn interviewed today in Dublin. Still wants to negotiate his fantasy a la carte Brexit and is refusing to say if Remain would be on the ballot for a confirmatory ref. :rolleyes:

[SHODAN]

Corbyn interviewed today in Dublin. Still wants to negotiate his fantasy a la carte Brexit and is refusing to say if Remain would be on the ballot for a confirmatory ref. :rolleyes:

Oh my god get him to ****, he's useless.

[Hibrandenburg]

He is exactly what they need and if they did go for him and he manages some sort of brexit deal then he would wipe the floor with Corbyn.
It’s just the sort of thing the Tories always manage to do so maybe he does stand a chance. His popularity will grow over the next few weeks as he gets more air time and Tories start to think about electability as well as brexit. They have a keen sense of self preservation the Tories.


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After May, the Tories will only accept a Brexiteer who is willing to go no deal.

[Hibbyradge]

This is what we're up against :brickwall:

Len McCluskey Warns Corbyn: Copying Lib Dems On Brexit Would Be ‘Electoral Suicide’

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/len-mccluskey-warns-corbyn-making-labour-the-anti-brexit-party-would-be-electoral-suicide_uk_5cf0d33be4b0e8085e37bbf7

[Fife-Hibee]

This is what we're up against :brickwall:

Len McCluskey Warns Corbyn: Copying Lib Dems On Brexit Would Be ‘Electoral Suicide’

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/len-mccluskey-warns-corbyn-making-labour-the-anti-brexit-party-would-be-electoral-suicide_uk_5cf0d33be4b0e8085e37bbf7

He's right. It's too late for Labour now. They have lost the remain vote to the Lib Dems for the foreseeable future. However, they have no chance of gaining the leave vote either.

As a "tartan tory" I must say, i'm rather delighted with these turn of events. :cb

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/36a8f4f425265d4077865f6a81d8e5a2.jpg
A Tory who understands.


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[Hibbyradge]

As a "tartan tory" I must say, i'm rather delighted with these turn of events. :cb

No doubt you are.

'Mon the Tories.

[Fife-Hibee]

No doubt you are.

'Mon the Tories.

:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Result from the Peterborough by-election:

Lab 30.9% (-17.2)
Brex 28.9% (n/a)
Con 21.4% (-25.5)
Lib 12.3% (+8.9)
Grn 3.1% (+1.3)


Pretty much confirms what recent polling has shown. Tories absolutely ****ed by Farage, Labour losing a good chunk from both Leave and Remain sides but more from Remain.

If nothing much changed between now and a GE, FPTP would probably deliver a Lab majority but it's extremely volatile. The Libs were absolute no-hopers here, where they are much closer to Lab they may get a much bigger boost.

[JeMeSouviens]

From Daily Mirror pol ed Pippa Crerar:


BREAKING: Labour has tabled a cross-party motion to prevent a No Deal Brexit. Would hand control of Parliamentary agenda to MPs on Tuesday 25th June. Gives them mechanism to stop UK crashing out.

[Callum_62]

From Daily Mirror pol ed Pippa Crerar:Couldn't they have just supported the Cherry amendment?

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[JeMeSouviens]

Couldn't they have just supported the Cherry amendment?

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Motion defeated by 11 votes. ****.

[Callum_62]

Absolutely topper. I love Westminster

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[lapsedhibee]

Absolutely topper. I love Westminster

Ach, there were more laughs in the Bill Murray/Andie MacDowell version.

[G B Young]

Motion defeated by 11 votes. ****.

That's a sore one for Labour. Corbyn's soor puss was priceless when the result was read out. 'Resentment rising off him like steam' as the braying Tories celebrated in front of him :hilarious

[marinello59]

That's a sore one for Labour. Corbyn's soor puss was priceless when the result was read out. 'Resentment rising off him like steam' s the braying Tories celebrated in front of him :hilarious

Aye, a no deal Brexit is hilarious. It’s far more important that Tory MPs protect their careers.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's a sore one for Labour. Corbyn's soor puss was priceless when the result was read out. 'Resentment rising off him like steam' as the braying Tories celebrated in front of him :hilarious

It's a sore one for everybody that doesn't want a recession, hundreds of thousands of job losses and quite probably people actually dying.

What a wheeze, eh? :rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Don't really know why anyone would find our predicament we are in as hilarious

The govts own analysis paints a very bleak picture - what's to celebrate by keeping that as a possible option?

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[Smartie]

Without wanting to defend the Tories, or to pretend that a no-deal Brexit would be anything other than catastrophic.........

Do you not undermine your own bargaining position by taking "no deal" off the table?

If you go in only being prepared to have "a deal" then you get whichever deal is on offer, without having the ability to tell the other side to F off, this isn't remotely in our interests.

The delusion of course is that there is a better deal to be had, just as long as we had the right people doing the bargaining. There isn't, the EU have offered as much as they should be reasonably expected to without undermining their own existence.


I remain absolutely in favour of remaining - no deal we get will beat what we have. I am also of the opinion though that "no deal" is better than a "crap deal" which seems to be the only type of deal that is on offer.

It's a shame that so many people in the UK would prefer a crap deal to a good one. It actually is that simple.

[JeMeSouviens]

Without wanting to defend the Tories, or to pretend that a no-deal Brexit would be anything other than catastrophic.........

Do you not undermine your own bargaining position by taking "no deal" off the table?

If you go in only being prepared to have "a deal" then you get whichever deal is on offer, without having the ability to tell the other side to F off, this isn't remotely in our interests.

The delusion of course is that there is a better deal to be had, just as long as we had the right people doing the bargaining. There isn't, the EU have offered as much as they should be reasonably expected to without undermining their own existence.


I remain absolutely in favour of remaining - no deal we get will beat what we have. I am also of the opinion though that "no deal" is better than a "crap deal" which seems to be the only type of deal that is on offer.

It's a shame that so many people in the UK would prefer a crap deal to a good one. It actually is that simple.

Not really. If you went to sell your car and didn't like the deal, you'd keep it and drive it home. You wouldn't crash it into the nearest tree and then walk.

[Callum_62]

Without wanting to defend the Tories, or to pretend that a no-deal Brexit would be anything other than catastrophic.........

Do you not undermine your own bargaining position by taking "no deal" off the table?

If you go in only being prepared to have "a deal" then you get whichever deal is on offer, without having the ability to tell the other side to F off, this isn't remotely in our interests.

The delusion of course is that there is a better deal to be had, just as long as we had the right people doing the bargaining. There isn't, the EU have offered as much as they should be reasonably expected to without undermining their own existence.


I remain absolutely in favour of remaining - no deal we get will beat what we have. I am also of the opinion though that "no deal" is better than a "crap deal" which seems to be the only type of deal that is on offer.

It's a shame that so many people in the UK would prefer a crap deal to a good one. It actually is that simple.A crap deal is the best on offer due to our own govts red lines

A Govt that knows the terrible economic impact on its people should not persue that route at all


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[JeMeSouviens]

8 Lab rebs + 13 abstentions
10 Tory rebs

They think they'll get another chance later. They better be right. :grr:

[G B Young]

Aye, a no deal Brexit is hilarious. It’s far more important that Tory MPs protect their careers.

I wasn't really commenting on the issue at stake, it was more a point about the all round inability of Corbyn to land any kind of telling blow on the most fractured Tory party and shambolic government of recent times. He'd have been quietly confident of pushing that motion through today but has been undone by his own MPs.

[Smartie]

Not really. If you went to sell your car and didn't like the deal, you'd keep it and drive it home. You wouldn't crash it into the nearest tree and then walk.

I was thinking more about walking into a shop to buy a bag of crisps. If you take the option of walking out of the shop without the crisps off the table then are you not obliged to give the shop owner whatever they want for the crisps?

In your case, is keeping the car and driving it home not the "no deal" equivalent?

[JeMeSouviens]

I was thinking more about walking into a shop to buy a bag of crisps. If you take the option of walking out of the shop without the crisps off the table then are you not obliged to give the shop owner whatever they want for the crisps?

In your case, is keeping the car and driving it home not the "no deal" equivalent?

No, reverting to the status quo is remain.

[Ozyhibby]

25 Labour mps abstained or voted against the whip last night.


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[G B Young]

25 Labour mps abstained or voted against the whip last night.


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Presumably most represent leave voting constituencies and, rightly in my view, feel that they were elected to represent the views of those who put them in parliament rather than follow the ever shifting stance that their party takes on Brexit.

[lapsedhibee]

Presumably most represent leave voting constituencies and, rightly in my view, feel that they were elected to represent the views of those who put them in parliament rather than follow the ever shifting stance that their party takes on Brexit.

I think they are elected to represent their constituents' interests, rather than their views. That's how a Tory MP can represent a Labour voter, and vice versa.

[G B Young]

Not really. If you went to sell your car and didn't like the deal, you'd keep it and drive it home. You wouldn't crash it into the nearest tree and then walk.

In that instance you'd presumably just find another buyer, which is not an option with Brexit. The EU are the only 'buyer' on the market and a very reluctant one at that, hence the reason you need to maintain a threat to walk away from the deal in the hope it will persuade them to improve their offer. Of course the deal is further complicated by the fact that the 'seller' is not the sole owner of the car. They're more like the nominated driver of a vehicle which has been utilised by a large number of passengers, the majority of whom have voted to sell it. However, a combination of squabbling over the price by those who wish to sell it and a backdrop of moaning from those who wanted to keep the vehicle has led to the nominated driver being replaced, probably by one who will have fewer qualms about driving it into a tree to end the impasse.

[G B Young]

I think they are elected to represent their constituents' interests, rather than their views. That's how a Tory MP can represent a Labour voter, and vice versa.

I'm not sure that applies here. Whether or not it proves to be in a constituency's best 'interests' to leave the EU a local MP is not, as far as I'm aware, elected because he or she is perceived to 'know better' than those who elected them. When a clear majority of your constituents vote to leave it's surely beholden on a democratically elected MP to respect any further expression of democracy within his or her constituency. To do otherwise would smack of an arrogance that will ultimately see that MP voted out of office.

This seems to be the biggest problem with referendums ie that too many MPs or MSPs think they know better than the electorate and because, unlike general elections which come round every few years, they can't handle the fact there's not another chance to have things their way. Hence why we now live in a seemingly endless cycle of attempts to block Brexit and to force another Scottish independence referendum.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not sure that applies here. Whether or not it proves to be in a constituency's best 'interests' to leave the EU a local MP is not, as far as I'm aware, elected because he or she is perceived to 'know better' than those who elected them. When a clear majority of your constituents vote to leave it's surely beholden on a democratically elected MP to respect any further expression of democracy within his or her constituency. To do otherwise would smack of an arrogance that will ultimately see that MP voted out of office.

What do you mean, further expression of democracy?

[Ozyhibby]

What do you mean, further expression of democracy?

Since the EU referendum we have since voted in a parliament that seems reluctant to carry it through. As that is a more recent democratic vote surely that is more important?


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[Bristolhibby]

Presumably most represent leave voting constituencies and, rightly in my view, feel that they were elected to represent the views of those who put them in parliament rather than follow the ever shifting stance that their party takes on Brexit.

Wish the Scottish Tories were this moral when it comes to votes in Parliament.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not sure that applies here. Whether or not it proves to be in a constituency's best 'interests' to leave the EU a local MP is not, as far as I'm aware, elected because he or she is perceived to 'know better' than those who elected them. When a clear majority of your constituents vote to leave it's surely beholden on a democratically elected MP to respect any further expression of democracy within his or her constituency. To do otherwise would smack of an arrogance that will ultimately see that MP voted out of office.

This seems to be the biggest problem with referendums ie that too many MPs or MSPs think they know better than the electorate and because, unlike general elections which come round every few years, they can't handle the fact there's not another chance to have things their way. Hence why we now live in a seemingly endless cycle of attempts to block Brexit and to force another Scottish independence referendum.

Actually that's precisely how representative democracy is supposed to work.

Edmund Burke - "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

MPs should have the necessary intellect, access to all the relevant evidence and the time that you and I might not necessarily have to come to a judgement. You don't like his/her judgements then you have the chance to vote them out next election.

In the case of Brexit, it ought to be, by now, overwhelmingly obvious to MPs that it's a stupid idea that should be dropped quicker than Boris' latest mistress. Unfortunately not enough of them have the metaphorical balls to do it.

[G B Young]

What do you mean, further expression of democracy?

An MP is democratically elected by virtue of attracting more votes than any other candidate in his or her constituency at a General Election. This is, by and large, accepted and respected by all concerned. We don't, for example, see a losing candidate and his or her supporters stage a campaign to reverse the result simply because they don't like it. On that basis, it surely follows that when we see another democratic vote within that constituency (ie Brexit) that the sitting MP should accept and respect the majority opinion. That doesn't mean they shouldn't also take on board the views of those who voted against Brexit but to actively go against the majority decision delivered by those he represents in parliament would seem to be a dereliction of his or her responsibilities to them.

[G B Young]

Actually that's precisely how representative democracy is supposed to work.

Edmund Burke - "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

MPs should have the necessary intellect, access to all the relevant evidence and the time that you and I might not necessarily have to come to a judgement. You don't like his/her judgements then you have the chance to vote them out next election.

In the case of Brexit, it ought to be, by now, overwhelmingly obvious to MPs that it's a stupid idea that should be dropped quicker than Boris' latest mistress. Unfortunately not enough of them have the metaphorical balls to do it.

Is that the definitive standard to which all MPs must adhere or simply Burke's opinion?

[Bristolhibby]

An MP is democratically elected by virtue of attracting more votes than any other candidate in his or her constituency at a General Election. This is, by and large, accepted and respected by all concerned. We don't, for example, see a losing candidate and his or her supporters stage a campaign to reverse the result simply because they don't like it. On that basis, it surely follows that when we see another democratic vote within that constituency (ie Brexit) that the sitting MP should accept and respect the majority opinion. That doesn't mean they shouldn't also take on board the views of those who voted against Brexit but to actively go against the majority decision delivered by those he represents in parliament would seem to be a dereliction of his or her responsibilities to them.

That analogy doesn’t work.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

An MP is democratically elected by virtue of attracting more votes than any other candidate in his or her constituency at a General Election. This is, by and large, accepted and respected by all concerned. We don't, for example, see a losing candidate and his or her supporters stage a campaign to reverse the result simply because they don't like it. On that basis, it surely follows that when we see another democratic vote within that constituency (ie Brexit) that the sitting MP should accept and respect the majority opinion. That doesn't mean they shouldn't also take on board the views of those who voted against Brexit but to actively go against the majority decision delivered by those he represents in parliament would seem to be a dereliction of his or her responsibilities to them.

By the same token, that would give licence to any MP in a remain seat to do whatever they liked to oppose Brexit?

I agree with you to the extent that if parliament is going to bottle its responsibility to decide things and hold a referendum instead, then parliament should be bound by the result.

However, the problem with Brexit (from start to finish) though is that there are many different forms of Brexit and the soft end (Norway style) is arguably closer to remain than the hard end of no deal. What was promised by the Brexiters, complete sovereign control with no economic downside, ie. having cake and eating it, has (surprise!) proved impossible to implement. It's ridiculous to claim a mandate for no deal from a vote including people who voted for Norway.

I think they need to either pick a specific version of Brexit and put that to a ref2 vs remain or just cancel it altogether.

The problem with ref2 is that they will pick no deal and then the same set of lying *****bags that won ref1 will update their lies to show that they can still have their cake and eat it. The Tory leadership candidates already have this process well underway. The EU are about to back down, they'll get a "managed" no deal, GATT art 24 will come to the rescue in a way that every trade commentator has already dismissed as TOTAL AND UTTER ****ING NONSENSE, magical technology that nobody is developing will fix the Irish border, they can just go and negotiate directly with Germany/Ireland/France/the Tooth Fairy and Barnier's team will be cut out of the loop. Blah, blah and more ****ing blah. :rolleyes:

[G B Young]

That analogy doesn’t work.

J

Why not? Here's Labour's Lisa Nandy, a staunch remainer but MP for a staunchly pro-Brexit constituency on what she sees as her responsibility to her constituents:


"I may take a different view to many of my constituents on Brexit, but I like and respect them enough to know that wanting to leave the EU is not the same as being stupid or racist, as they have too often been labelled. They listened to the economic arguments I, and others, put forward in 2016 and took a judgment to vote leave. I am yet to meet more than a handful of people who have changed their minds.

"Every time I talk about this I am told I should be resolutely making the argument for remain. But I and others did exactly that in 2016, spending months in the most sceptical towns of the North West, North East and Midlands making the case for the many and varied benefits of EU membership. We weren’t very much helped by a national campaign which championed the economic benefits of remaining. After decades of relative decline, and much EU structural fund investment focused on rebuilding our great cities, it just didn’t cut it among many people in towns who had seen jobs disappear and young people leave, and it still doesn’t.

"Almost universally on the doorstep questions about a second referendum are largely greeted with bewilderment. I am reminded frequently that we’ve had one already and it’s time for Parliament to get on with it."

[JeMeSouviens]

Why not? Here's Labour's Lisa Nandy, a staunch remainer but MP for a staunchly pro-Brexit constituency on what she sees as her responsibility to her constituents:


"I may take a different view to many of my constituents on Brexit, but I like and respect them enough to know that wanting to leave the EU is not the same as being stupid or racist, as they have too often been labelled. They listened to the economic arguments I, and others, put forward in 2016 and took a judgment to vote leave. I am yet to meet more than a handful of people who have changed their minds.

"Every time I talk about this I am told I should be resolutely making the argument for remain. But I and others did exactly that in 2016, spending months in the most sceptical towns of the North West, North East and Midlands making the case for the many and varied benefits of EU membership. We weren’t very much helped by a national campaign which championed the economic benefits of remaining. After decades of relative decline, and much EU structural fund investment focused on rebuilding our great cities, it just didn’t cut it among many people in towns who had seen jobs disappear and young people leave, and it still doesn’t.

"Almost universally on the doorstep questions about a second referendum are largely greeted with bewilderment. I am reminded frequently that we’ve had one already and it’s time for Parliament to get on with it."

Or in other words, I know Brexit's crap but I want to keep my job. It's not exactly high principle.

[Jones28]

Fully anticipate no-deal now, with Johnson being effectively sworn in after two rounds of votes. This is mental, and not the good kind of "we've just won the Scottish cup" bewildered mental.

[BroxburnHibee]

Fully anticipate no-deal now, with Johnson being effectively sworn in after two rounds of votes. This is mental, and not the good kind of "we've just won the Scottish cup" bewildered mental.

Yep we mock the yanks for electing Trump now a few thousand Tory party members are about to force our own version on us.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep we mock the yanks for electing Trump now a few thousand Tory party members are about to force our own version on us.

To be fair, everyone in this country knows this is how PM’s are picked so it’s not really the Tory members fault. It’s our fault for voting in the Tories or voting no in 2014 or whatever democratic decision you may think led us here. Either way, its democracy in action.


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[Moulin Yarns]

To be fair, everyone in this country knows this is how PM’s are picked so it’s not really the Tory members fault. It’s our fault for voting in the Tories or voting no in 2014 or whatever democratic decision you may think led us here. Either way, its democracy in action.


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Not strictly true.

Prime minister is normally voted because of being leader of a party and they become prime minister through a general election.

We are about to have our second prime minister through party members only

[marinello59]

Not strictly true.

Prime minister is normally voted because of being leader of a party and they become prime minister through a general election.

We are about to have our second prime minister through party members only

Strictly speaking we don’t vote for a PM or even a Government in a general election. We vote for a local representative.

[Ozyhibby]

Not strictly true.

Prime minister is normally voted because of being leader of a party and they become prime minister through a general election.

We are about to have our second prime minister through party members only

We’ve had lots more than two PM’s this way.


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[James310]

We’ve had lots more than two PM’s this way.


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May, Brown and Major are 3 off the top of my head in recent times. The next one will be the fourth and I am sure as you say plenty more.

Nicola Sturgeon became FM when Salmond stood down.

[Fife-Hibee]

May, Brown and Major are 3 off the top of my head in recent times. The next one will be the fourth and I am sure as you say plenty more.

Nicola Sturgeon became FM when Salmond stood down.

Sturgeon was deputy First Minister so the move was very much expected.

[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon was deputy First Minister so the move was very much expected.

Yip but the principle is the same. We don’t elect individual heads of state, we elect representative to go to parliament and they then choose a leader. Both the Tories and Labour now consult party members but that’s up to them.


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[ronaldo7]

Sturgeon was deputy First Minister so the move was very much expected.

She became leader of the SNP, and then had an election to become FM in the Scottish Parliament, and was opposed by, Ruth Davidson. 66 votes to 15. 39 abstentions.

Ruth lost that election as well. I make it, 8 in a row now.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://i.ibb.co/mcr6fFS/hypocracy3.png



https://i.ibb.co/cYh5Y6n/hypocracy2.png


:whistle:

.

[JeMeSouviens]

A neat visualisation of why the EU is a bit more relaxed about No Deal than the Brexiters (still!) think:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-D1f6qWwAAtyQy.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-D9OCxW4AELj18.png

[Moulin Yarns]

There are so many threads that this could go on.

Westminster VI





https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1144215399732580352?s=19

[Callum_62]

There are so many threads that this could go on.

Westminster VI





https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1144215399732580352?s=19So it's a fairly easy change in Govt in a general election most likley

Doesn't sit well with me during the Conservative leadership contest them all saying they'd never call a GE

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[HiBremian]

There are so many threads that this could go on.

Westminster VI





https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1144215399732580352?s=19

Opinion polling volatility has gone off the radar recently, suggesting a lot of people seem to be all over the place. But maybe, just maybe, it's because the vast majority of voters don't pay much attention to politics. And with traditional political loyalties dissolving over the past 20 years, it maybe shouldn't be so surprising in the current climate.

My take is that we'll leave the EU on 31 October on a mildly re-worded version of the WA, that maybe emphasises more the Tories' aim of being out of all EU institutions. It'll be sold by Johnson to his own MPs on a "back me or sack me" basis, sugared with the key prospect of a subsequent general election. He'll have enough Labour MP votes to counter the DUP. The attraction (to Tory MPs) of a GE after leaving the EU is that he will have pleased the "just get on with it" brigade. They, the majority of voters who don't pay attention, vastly outnumber the rabid no-dealers, and will this time vote for the buffoon because he, to quote a famous football term, "delivered". The Tories will then be returned with a majority of 50 or so seats, ready to negotiate with a more amenable HoC behind them. The Brexit Party and Corbyn will both be history.

But BoJo himself will lose his seat in Uxbridge to Ali Milani, leaving the winning party without a PM :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Opinion polling volatility has gone off the radar recently, suggesting a lot of people seem to be all over the place. But maybe, just maybe, it's because the vast majority of voters don't pay much attention to politics. And with traditional political loyalties dissolving over the past 20 years, it maybe shouldn't be so surprising in the current climate.

My take is that we'll leave the EU on 31 October on a mildly re-worded version of the WA, that maybe emphasises more the Tories' aim of being out of all EU institutions. It'll be sold by Johnson to his own MPs on a "back me or sack me" basis, sugared with the key prospect of a subsequent general election. He'll have enough Labour MP votes to counter the DUP. The attraction (to Tory MPs) of a GE after leaving the EU is that he will have pleased the "just get on with it" brigade. They, the majority of voters who don't pay attention, vastly outnumber the rabid no-dealers, and will this time vote for the buffoon because he, to quote a famous football term, "delivered". The Tories will then be returned with a majority of 50 or so seats, ready to negotiate with a more amenable HoC behind them. The Brexit Party and Corbyn will both be history.

But BoJo himself will lose his seat in Uxbridge to Ali Milani, leaving the winning party without a PM :greengrin


But....


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-brexit-deal-talks-boris-johnson-renegotiation-irish-back-stop-border-a8975666.html

[HiBremian]

But....


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-brexit-deal-talks-boris-johnson-renegotiation-irish-back-stop-border-a8975666.html

Sorry, should have said, the rewording will be the political declaration about the future relationship. He'll sell the WA "as is", easy for the general public, but requiring bullying plus sweeties for his MPs.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think we will leave on Halloween with no deal. Having thrown the Tory membership so much red meat with his vehement EU bashing, Bozo won't be able to do anything else. His concern is his own career, and it would be suicide for him to u-turn now. The EU will not re-negotiate the withdrawal agreement (nor should they) and the UK government cannot get anything through parliament. I can only forsee leaving with no deal; any other outcome would be astonishing, in my opinion.

[Just Alf]

I see that the EU has just signed a trade agreement with (basically) South America... And we're going to miss out... Oh well. Mind you, as per Boris etc these deals are easy, this one was only 20 years in negotiation after all.

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[Jack]

I see that the EU has just signed a trade agreement with (basically) South America... And we're going to miss out... Oh well. Mind you, as per Boris etc these deals are easy, this one was only 20 years in negotiation after all.

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So the EU has been getting on with the day job protecting and enhancing their members lot while at the same time the UK tory government couldn't hold up a half sheet of A4 with any agreement on it that they come to with any country about anything!

[Hibrandenburg]

Does anybody actually remember life pre EU? My memories are those of a country that was an absolute ****hole and the sick man of Europe. I remember visiting East Berlin after the wall came down and it was like a trip down memory lane. Astonishingly it's the generation before me that has overwhelmingly voted for a return to the time where we lagged behind the rest of Europe in almost every positive way possible. I don't get it, I really don't get it.

[lapsedhibee]

Does anybody actually remember life pre EU? My memories are those of a country that was an absolute ****hole and the sick man of Europe. I remember visiting East Berlin after the wall came down and it was like a trip down memory lane. Astonishingly it's the generation before me that has overwhelmingly voted for a return to the time where we lagged behind the rest of Europe in almost every positive way possible. I don't get it, I really don't get it.

Brexiters I know aren't hankering after the 1950s. They're nostalgic for the Victorian era.

[Hibrandenburg]

Brexiters I know aren't hankering after the 1950s. They're nostalgic for the Victorian era.

Great, so sending kids up chimneys and poor houses. Or do these people really believe we all drove round in horse drawn carriages wearing top hats and tails.

[lapsedhibee]

Great, so sending kids up chimneys and poor houses. Or do these people really believe we all drove round in horse drawn carriages wearing top hats and tails.

Don't think Rees Moggy's like would have any problem sleeping if radical reforms like The Not Sending Children Up Chimneys Act were undone.

[Mibbes Aye]

Brexiters I know aren't hankering after the 1950s. They're nostalgic for the Victorian era.

Spoken for truth.

The Victorian sense of exceptionalism, combined with a healthy free trade attitude and a moral small-c conservatism is a perfect fit for many parliamentarians and members.

[cabbageandribs1875]

jo swinson and Ed davey both saying the lib-dems would not form a coalition with labour if Corbyn was still at the helm

[stoneyburn hibs]

jo swinson and Ed davey both saying the lib-dems would not form a coalition with labour if Corbyn was still at the helm

They'd form a coalition with absolutely any party that gives them a share of power.

[cabbageandribs1875]

They'd form a coalition with absolutely any party that gives them a share of power.


100% swinson would






and probably the same % for Davey :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Fauxrage's MEPs have turned their backs on the EU anthem again, just as they did 5 years ago. Guerilla warfare against the political elite or what. Wonder if it'll have the devastating effect now that it obviously had back then.

[JeMeSouviens]

Philip Hammond in the Commons:


it would be wrong to pursue no deal as a policy and I believe it will be for Commons, of which I will continue proudly to be a member, to ensure that doesn't happen

:cb

[JeMeSouviens]

Also Hammond:


Let me go further, the government’s analysis suggests that in a disruptive no-deal exit there will be a hit to the exchequer of about £90bn.

[BroxburnHibee]

Philip Hammond in the Commons:



:cb

He knows hes getting sacked whoever wins.

[JeMeSouviens]

Beyond embarrassing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/04/ann-widdecombe-likens-brexit-to-emancipation-of-slaves

[lapsedhibee]

Beyond embarrassing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/04/ann-widdecombe-likens-brexit-to-emancipation-of-slaves

Deranged.

[GreenLake]

Happy July 4th Redcoats!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190704/fcb717d7e34257d52587641b31583265.jpg

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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/philip-hammond-leads-30-tory-mps-in-plot-to-stop-no-deal-brexit-in-october-11757279

Looks very much like we are heading to a GE.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://news.sky.com/story/philip-hammond-leads-30-tory-mps-in-plot-to-stop-no-deal-brexit-in-october-11757279

Looks very much like we are heading to a GE.


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Mon the Phil-istines!

[Fife-Hibee]

https://news.sky.com/story/philip-hammond-leads-30-tory-mps-in-plot-to-stop-no-deal-brexit-in-october-11757279

Looks very much like we are heading to a GE.


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A tory/brexitparty/ukip/DUP coalition should hopefully seal the deal for us.

[Ozyhibby]

A tory/brexitparty/ukip/DUP coalition should hopefully seal the deal for us.

All Nicola’s dreams come true.[emoji23]


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[lapsedhibee]

Beyond embarrassing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/04/ann-widdecombe-likens-brexit-to-emancipation-of-slaves

The Gruniad meets Still Game on Widdecombe:
"There really is something of the ***** about her" :faf:

[JeMeSouviens]

Labour's position is apparently about to shift. Aiui they want:

- a ref2 on any Tory deal or no deal and they will campaign to remain

- if there's a GE, they will campaign to renegotiate a Labour Brexit deal and that will also be put to a ref2. The decision whether to campaign to remain in that ref2 or take their own deal and brexit will be taken later depending on what they negotiate.

There you are, crystal. :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190709/59301906166188597594fa4201c7fbe9.jpg
Good point.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Part 1 of Lab's new position now confirmed by Corbyn.

BUT no confirmation of part 2. Apparently that has to wait on their manifesto "process".

Bizarre, given that it's the lack of a clear position on what they would do in power that's killing them and they're not shy on saying what they'd do about any number of other things. :rolleyes:

[Fife-Hibee]

So how many brexiteers knew that "taking back control" was all about handing it straight over to the US?

Is this all part of the masterplan to make Britain great again?

[Slavers]

So how many brexiteers knew that "taking back control" was all about handing it straight over to the US?

Is this all part of the masterplan to make Britain great again?

If you knew bible prophecy then you'd know why such moves are being made.

[Bangkok Hibby]

If you knew bible prophecy then you'd know why such moves are being made.

Really? Love to know your thinking here

[Fife-Hibee]

If you knew bible prophecy then you'd know why such moves are being made.

I know nothing of "bible prophecy". But i'll pray that it's Jesus coming down from the clouds to banish the anti-christ that has taken over America and now the UK as well. :pray:

[JeMeSouviens]

Amber Rudd accepts no deal as a possible outcome.

Craven self interest. :rolleyes:

Only a matter of time until the first Ruth Davidson "what Scotland needs is no deal" speech.

[Bristolhibby]

jo swinson and Ed davey both saying the lib-dems would not form a coalition with labour if Corbyn was still at the helm

TBF that’s good politicking. Distance themselves from Corbyn (toxic to some middle voters)

Then when votes are cast go into some confidence and supply a la DUP.

Not in a coalition and pinched some seats.

J

[Ozyhibby]

TBF that’s good politicking. Distance themselves from Corbyn (toxic to some middle voters)

Then when votes are cast go into some confidence and supply a la DUP.

Not in a coalition and pinched some seats.

J

They might do more than pinch some seats the way the Labour Party are going.


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[Fife-Hibee]

The Lib Dems wouldn't form a coaltion with any left leaning party. It goes against their parties austerity enabling principles. They'll join forces with the most Conservative available to them, whether it be the Conservative Party themselves, or a New Labour clone.

The fact they've ruled out a coalition with Jeremy Corbyn, based purely on unproven accusations, but they haven't ruled out a coalition with the openly racist Boris Johnson should be no surprise to anyone.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_eAKQvXkAAdPJm.png

:faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

What I'm listening to just now.

https://open.spotify.com/user/guardianmusic/playlist/6l0Wyp6lI2nZPNKoeDp92U

[JeMeSouviens]

New OBR forecast out for No Deal Brexit. They predict:

A recession next year with 2% contraction, £30 Billion hit to tax revenue, £ to go to near € parity for several years.

Woo-hoo. :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

New OBR forecast out for No Deal Brexit. They predict:

A recession next year with 2% contraction, £30 Billion hit to tax revenue, £ to go to near € parity for several years.

Woo-hoo. :rolleyes:

I knew there would be an upside to Brexit. :wink:

[DaveF]

New OBR forecast out for No Deal Brexit. They predict:

A recession next year with 2% contraction, £30 Billion hit to tax revenue, £ to go to near € parity for several years.

Woo-hoo. :rolleyes:

Fake news, OBR full of remoaners. ..etc..etc..

[JeMeSouviens]

I knew there would be an upside to Brexit. :wink:

Is it none of your relatives can afford to visit you? :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it none of your relatives can afford to visit you? :wink:

I'm saying nowt. :greengrin