Brexit - What Now.

[grunt]

Not fascist in the slightest.


Home Office immigration enforcement officials are targeting places of worship to advise people with insecure status to return to their countries of origin.On three occasions, officials entered religious premises to take people direct to airports.

https://t.co/7aTtXo7IFV

[Stairway 2 7]

Larry Elliot again arguing that brexit didn't harm the uk 😳

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/06/brexit-blame-uk-economy-opportunity-eu?CMP=share_btn_tw

Whether that opportunity is seized or squandered is yet to be seen but the dire predictions didn’t happen

[grunt]

Not fascist in the least:


The government has been accused of “gerrymandering” and “legalised voter suppression” by pushing ahead with mandatory voter ID for next year’s May local elections, amid renewed concerns that young people will be locked out of voting. At least six of the government-accepted IDs for voting are specifically targeted at older people, while almost none are aimed at younger people. New secondary legislation introduced by ministers to extend the Elections Act using Henry VIII powers – whereby Parliament is bypassed – include 310 references to the word “refusal” to grant a ballot paper.

@lloyd_rm told me: “I pushed very hard for ministers to accept other forms of ID,” Russell-Moyle said. But the decision was taken to exclude forms of ID “that are just as secure”. He added that “student ID cards or Railcards have been deemed not acceptable”

[Stairway 2 7]

Not fascist in the least:

Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.

[grunt]

Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.
I fear you are missing the point. It's not that there is a problem with voter fraud; there isn't. It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

[James310]

Not fascist in the least:

Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.

[grunt]

Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

[grunt]

Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.Do other European countries also have a requirement for citizens to have a national form of ID? if they do, then it's no big deal they should be asked to provide it when voting. In the UK we do not have a requirement for our citizens to carry ID. And we don't have a problem with voter fraud. So why introduce the need for ID when there's no problem?

[James310]

It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

So acceptable ID will include things like a bus pass, something young people in Scotland will have in increasing numbers due to the "free" travel scheme. The plan is you can also get a voter identification card from your local council for free and they will be required to provide this by law, so the facts don't really back up your claims. Even expired photo ID will be acceptable. In fact 98% of people will already have the required ID. See below:

What identification will be acceptable?

There will be a wide range of photographic identification which will be acceptable.

These include:

Various concessionary travel passes
PASS cards
Ministry of Defence identity cards
Photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme
Driver’s licenses
Passports
Free Voter Cards, provided by local authorities

Expired photographic identification will also be accepted if the photograph is of a good enough likeness to allow polling station staff to confirm the identity of the holder.

Legislation will also make clear that local authorities must provide a Voter Card free of charge where an elector does not have one of the approved forms of photo identification

What if I don’t have any of those documents?

Everyone eligible to vote will continue to be able to do so. New research published by the Government shows that 98% of electors already own a photographic document that is on the list of acceptable types of identification under this policy.

Local authorities will be required, by law, to provide a Voter Card free of charge where an elector does not have one of the approved forms of photo identification. A similar provision will be established for anonymous electors who will be able to apply for a free anonymous elector Voter Card should they wish to vote in person.

So, if they really wanted to do what you are suggesting they would not be doing the above would they.

[Mon Dieu4]

Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.

The fact there were 595 instances of voter fraud in the year 2019 which includes and General, local, European and mayoral elections shows there is absolutely no need for it, there must be another reason behind why they are doing it imo

[grunt]

So, if they really wanted to do what you are suggesting they would not be doing the above would they.
You either didn't read, or didn't understand my reply.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do people think that there isn't any voter id already?

Next time you receive an electoral vote check it, you will find a number which corresponds with the electoral roll.

It might not be the same as having to show photo id but it links your address to the voting paper.

[James310]

You either didn't read, or didn't understand my reply.

I did, you said the Tory's are doing it to increase their majority and will make it difficult for people to get the required ID.

I replied with the facts that things like a bus pass will be acceptable and it will become law that local councils will have to supply voter ID cards free of charge, and not forgetting 98% of people already have the required ID.

All things you think they would NOT be doing if it was all about stopping non Tory voters voting.

[grunt]

I did, you said the Tory's are doing it to increase their majority and will make it difficult for people to get the required ID. I replied with the facts that things like a bus pass will be acceptable and it will become law that local councils will have to supply voter ID cards free of charge, and not forgetting 98% of people already have the required ID.

All things you think they would NOT be doing if it was all about stopping non Tory voters voting.


Various concessionary travel passes
PASS cards
Ministry of Defence identity cards
Photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme
Driver’s licenses
Passports
Free Voter Cards, provided by local authorities


98%? And you believe that?

Look at the list of acceptable forms of ID - how many of them will be available to voters aged 18-24?

The very fact that someone has to go to the trouble of contacting the Council to obtain a voter card will ITSELF prove to be a barrier to voting to youngsters who already vote less than older folk because of their disenchantment with politicians and politics. Also - have you tried to contact the Council recently???

[James310]

98%? And you believe that?

Look at the list of acceptable forms of ID - how many of them will be available to voters aged 18-24?

The very fact that someone has to go to the trouble of contacting the Council to obtain a voter card will ITSELF prove to be a barrier to voting to youngsters who already vote less than older folk because of their disenchantment with politicians and politics. Also - have you tried to contact the Council recently???

Once again, I simply cannot believe that you cannot see what is happening here. Your continued arguments in support of the Govt in dealing with a problem that does not exist in the face of what I consider to be overwhelming evidence is either trolling or blind and unconditional support of the Tory Govt.

Did you read it, 98% ALREADY have the required ID. And yes I do believe it, unlike you I am not into conspiracy theories that think everything I don't agree with is fake or made up.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-photographic-id-ownership-in-great-britain

There is the link to the research, why do you think it's made up or fabricated? Which parts exactly aren't true?

If you were concerned about younger people then again the facts are not your friend.

"Younger people were more likely than the general population to hold a form of photo ID. Ninety-nine
per cent of those aged 18-29 held a form of photo ID, slightly higher than either those aged 30-69
(98%) or 70+ (98%). Additionally, those aged 85+ were less likely to hold photo ID that was
recognisable. Nine in ten (91%) did so, compared to well over nine in ten (95-98%) of younger age
groups."

Seems to work just fine in all other European countries. Maybe it's you that needs to stop your unconditional belief that everything and everyone is somehow out to get you or some other group.

[grunt]

Seems to work just fine in all other European countries. Maybe it's you that needs to stop your unconditional belief that everything and everyone is somehow out to get you or some other group.
You. Are. Missing. The. Point.

We don't need it.
It will deter people from voting.
It will disproportionately favour the Tories.

[James310]

You. Are. Missing. The. Point.

We don't need it.
It will deter people from voting.
It will disproportionately favour the Tories.

So is it made up research or not? If you challenge the authenticity of something then at least come back with a reason why?

People need ID to pick up a parcel, having ID to vote when so many already have it isn't that big a deal. I thought something that aligns us with the rest of Europe would be welcomed not rejected.

[Stairway 2 7]

Does it work in Northern Ireland where you need it?

[Mon Dieu4]

So is it made up research or not? If you challenge the authenticity of something then at least come back with a reason why?

People need ID to pick up a parcel, having ID to vote when so many already have it isn't that big a deal. I thought something that aligns us with the rest of Europe would be welcomed not rejected.

Looking at the electoral commission website there have been 1,566 possible electoral fraud cases out of how many 10s of millions that voted since 2017, 9 people have been convicted, 10 received a caution and 3 are still under investigation, that's spanning 5 years and there is no evidence in the figures that it's in any way on the increase

There is zero reason at all for this to be implemented

[James310]

Looking at the electoral commission website there have been 1,566 possible electoral fraud cases out of how many 10s of millions that voted since 2017, 9 people have been convicted, 10 received a caution and 3 are still under investigation, that's spanning 5 years and there is no evidence in the figures that it's in any way on the increase

There is zero reason at all for this to be implemented

I guess that's the ones we know about. I don't think it's a widespread problem either, just don't agree with the narrative it's some Tory plot to stop people voting. The facts prove this.

I wonder if people in France think it's some plot to stop people voting as well or they just get on with it and accept it's fairly normal around the world.

[hibsbollah]

I guess that's the ones we know about. I don't think it's a widespread problem either, just don't agree with the narrative it's some Tory plot to stop people voting. The facts prove this.

I wonder if people in France think it's some plot to stop people voting as well or they just get on with it and accept it's fairly normal around the world.

It’s fairly well established that the US Trumpian Republican Party are actively trying to engineer the voting population in key states, whether you call this ‘voter suppression’ as the DEmocrats do or ‘Rooting out voter fraud’ as the GOP do depends on your allegiances. It’s equally well established that the new Tory establishment of right wing nuts have very close ties with Steve Bannon and those Republicans close to Trump and even to the right of Trump, and now they are following almost step by step and word for word, their playbook.

It’s fairly obvious what’s going on.

[Stairway 2 7]

It will surely all go through an app in the next 10 years. Vaccine passports went well and things will only get better.

[James310]

It’s fairly well established that the US Trumpian Republican Party are actively trying to engineer the voting population in key states, whether you call this ‘voter suppression’ as the DEmocrats do or ‘Rooting out voter fraud’ as the GOP do depends on your allegiances. It’s equally well established that the new Tory establishment of right wing nuts have very close ties with Steve Bannon and those Republicans close to Trump and even to the right of Trump, and now they are following almost step by step and word for word, their playbook.

It’s fairly obvious what’s going on.

Yes it's all a big plot, that's why 98% of people already have the required ID and they are changing the law so local councils have to give out required ID free of charge for the 2% that may not have it. If people can use their bus pass as ID they are not doing a great job of voter suppression.

If anything is Trumpian it's the conspiracy theories going around about this when it's just bringing us in line with the rest of Europe and the world.

[Ozyhibby]

We’ll soon be a ‘papers please’ society.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We’ll soon be a ‘papers please’ society.


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Most of Europe has been for years, ID has always had lots of opposition in the uk. Probably know everything about us due to our phones and Internet anyway

[James310]

We’ll soon be a ‘papers please’ society.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Show me your bus pass at once!

[Hibrandenburg]

Most of Europe has been for years, ID has always had lots of opposition in the uk. Probably know everything about us due to our phones and Internet anyway

One of the advantages imo of taking German citizenship was that I got an ID. It's just practical on so many accounts. I've only had positive experiences, one document to prove my identity and no faffing about with utility bills, driving licences or bus passes. The law in Germany is that I have a legal obligation to be able to identify myself, but that doesn't mean on the spot so there is no need for me to have my ID card with me at all times.

Anyone who thinks that because the UK doesn't have ID cards means that they don't have to identify themselves in certain circumstances is kidding themselves.

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/thecommongreen/status/1589599757034553345?s=20&t=9DkXeG7f_SZ8dnF-11iOww


Reminder that voter ID without a free, mandatory, universal and automatically issued ID scheme is voter suppression.

The Government's pilot found that around 1% of voters reported that they didn't vote at all because they didn't have ID or disagreed with the ID scheme.Up to 0.7% of voters who did turn out were turned away for lack of ID and did not return.

At the 2019 General Election, 26 seats were won with majorities of less than 2%. At the 2017 GE, 50 seats were won with margins of <2%. In a tight national race, 2% voter suppression could well make the difference between Governments should it favour one party over another.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/voter-identification-pilots/may-2019-voter-identification-pilot-schemes/impact-voters-experience


We also asked respondents whether the requirement to show ID made them more or less likely to vote. Most people in the pilot scheme said it made no difference or made them more likely to vote (90%). However, a notable minority said it made them less likely to vote (3%), that they didn’t have ID (1%) or that they didn’t know (6%). Non-voters on 2 May were more likely than voters to say that they would be negatively affected or that they were unsure.

[grunt]

If anything is Trumpian it's the conspiracy theories going around about this when it's just bringing us in line with the rest of Europe and the world.
That's probably why the Electoral Commission are concerned. They are big on conspiracy theories.

[Jones28]

Most of Europe has been for years, ID has always had lots of opposition in the uk. Probably know everything about us due to our phones and Internet anyway

I do find it hilarious that people don’t want to have ID but have social media, mobile phone numbers and one password to access every single online account they’ve got.

Voter ID is bollocks though.

[Stairway 2 7]

I do find it hilarious that people don’t want to have ID but have social media, mobile phone numbers and one password to access every single online account they’ve got.

Voter ID is bollocks though.

Agree with both parts really. On the first it's why I would piss my self laughing at the conspiracy nuts saying covid vaccine was about tracking us. People would put these comments up with their gps smart phones on a social media site...

[grunt]

I do find it hilarious that people don’t want to have ID but have social media, mobile phone numbers and one password to access every single online account they’ve got.

Voter ID is bollocks though.I think you're being a bit simplistic about the argument. I don't want voter ID - at least, not the currently proposed version of voter ID - not for myself, as I'd have no problem providing ID. The reason I don't want it is for all those who can't provide ID. And that has NOTHING to do with social media, phone numbers etc.

[grunt]

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/11/07/voter-id-its-far-worse-than-any-us-state/


The Government has been accused of “gerrymandering” and “legalised voter suppression” by pushing ahead with mandatory voter ID for next year’s May local elections, amid renewed concerns that young people will be locked out of voting.

At the 2023 elections in England, voters will have to show ID or be turned away for the first time, following the passing of the Elections Act this April.

Election officials say they have not had enough time to prepare and are worried that thousands will be turned away at the polling station – triggering potential ballot box conflicts and allegations of unfairness.

[Jack]

The boss of retailer Next is urging the government to let more foreign workers into the UK to ease labour shortages.

Lord Wolfson, who was a prominent advocate of Brexit, said the UK's current immigration policy was crippling economic growth.

He said firms should pay a tax to employ foreign workers, to encourage them to recruit from the UK first.

The government said it had delivered on its promise to "take back control of our immigration system".

Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC: "We have got people queuing up to come to this country to pick crops that are rotting in fields, to work in warehouses that otherwise wouldn't be operable, and we're not letting them in.

"And we have to take a different approach to economically productive migration."

He said that the government needed to decide whether the UK was an open free trading nation, or whether post-Brexit it wanted to be "fortress Britain", pulling up the drawbridge to foreign workers at significant cost to the economy.

"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted," he said.

[Kato]

"it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted"

Blimey. What is he on about. Brexit was never ever defined other than a few slogans at simpleton level.

If he had a vision of brexit in his head he sounds like a right divvy.

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[Ozyhibby]

The boss of retailer Next is urging the government to let more foreign workers into the UK to ease labour shortages.

Lord Wolfson, who was a prominent advocate of Brexit, said the UK's current immigration policy was crippling economic growth.

He said firms should pay a tax to employ foreign workers, to encourage them to recruit from the UK first.

The government said it had delivered on its promise to "take back control of our immigration system".

Lord Wolfson, a Conservative peer, told the BBC: "We have got people queuing up to come to this country to pick crops that are rotting in fields, to work in warehouses that otherwise wouldn't be operable, and we're not letting them in.

"And we have to take a different approach to economically productive migration."

He said that the government needed to decide whether the UK was an open free trading nation, or whether post-Brexit it wanted to be "fortress Britain", pulling up the drawbridge to foreign workers at significant cost to the economy.

"I think in respect of immigration, it's definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit wanted," he said.

He wants higher taxes for people not born here?[emoji102]


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[Hibbyradge]

He wants higher taxes for people not born here?[emoji102]


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That's not what he said. He wants firms to pay a tax for employing them.

Why, I have no idea.

[Ozyhibby]

That's not what he said. He wants firms to pay a tax for employing them.

Why, I have no idea.

Whoever pays it, it’s a tax on foreigners. It makes people not born here more expensive to hire.


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[Hibbyradge]

Whoever pays it, it’s a tax on foreigners. It makes people not born here more expensive to hire.


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They are 2 different things, but yes, it does and I've no idea why he thinks it's necessary.

Must be a sop to the hardliners. :dunno:

[Bostonhibby]

https://twitter.com/tshep42/status/1590657740560830470?t=Aazz2Ot2wIGqAntM01ty6Q&s=08

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[Kato]

https://twitter.com/tshep42/status/1590657740560830470?t=Aazz2Ot2wIGqAntM01ty6Q&s=08

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkThe brexiters complaining now are obviously the ones who were taken in by the con.

The brexiters who are keeping schtum and don't want to talk about it are the con artists.

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[Bostonhibby]

The brexiters complaining now are obviously the ones who were taken in by the con.

The brexiters who are keeping schtum and don't want to talk about it are the con artists.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkThe biggest brexiteer I personally know has moved from attacking everything and anything that critiques brexit as just "remoaners" through to everything being due to the "war" with Russia, and today, now that it's hitting him personally hard financially he freely talks about mistakes being made but "we" never knew about them at the time. Self interest is a powerful motivator and politics aside he's not all bad, even follows Hibs[emoji16]



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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221111/584b1e68433063064fd70e88bf4bfc9c.jpg


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[grunt]

London has lost its crown as Europe’s biggest stock market to Paris

https://t.co/H6OAhelquB

[grunt]

The UK economy has been ‘permanently damaged by Brexit’, says former BOE policymaker Michael Saunders

https://twitter.com/BloombergTV/status/1592109834664648704?s=20&t=A_csuv0jnmwr2qDFAdzsgg

[cabbageandribs1875]

London has lost its crown as Europe’s biggest stock market to Paris

https://t.co/H6OAhelquB





aww never mind, it still has the title of the money laundering capital of the world, we should be so proud


https://anons.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/london-the-money-laundering-capital-of-the-world-documentary-nnd3srwpygM.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-kingdom/how-britain-stumbled?utm_medium=social

Interesting read. Does the UK fix this or does it continue it’s decline?


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[grunt]

Former Environment Sec George Eustice has spoken about the post-Brexit UK/Australia trade deal in the Commons. He says now no longer a minister: "I no longer have to put such a positive gloss on what was agreed...the Australia deal is not actually a very good trade deal for the UK."

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1592203847946358787?s=20&t=Iqbggxs7TeaVWgnWyiIJ4w

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1592208294684557312?s=46&t=xnRucd89wJ8k48FSgl2WPA

Tories now admit trade deal with Oz was a disaster.


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[grunt]

Some incredible comments from Eustice


"We did not actually need to give Australia nor New Zealand full liberalisation of beef and sheep. It was not in our economic interests to do so. And neither Australia nor New Zealand had anything to offer in return for such a grand concession."


"In my view the best clause of this treaty we have with Australia, is the final clause, because it does gives any UK govt...an unbridled right to terminate and renegotiate the FTA at any time with just six months notice."


"The UK went into this negotiation holding the strongest hand, the best cards but at some point in early summer 2021, the then Trade Secretary [Truss] took a decision to set an arbitrary target to conclude it by G7- from that moment we were on the backfoot."


"In fact at one point the then Trade Secretary [Truss] asked her opposite number in Australia what he would need in order to conclude an agreement by G7, and of course he then set out his terms which eventually shaped the deal. We must never repeat that mistake."

[Jones28]

Some incredible comments from Eustice

**** me. That’s absolutely terrifying. So this was their flagship, “we told you it would be good” trade deal. And it’s been eviscerated in parliament by a former minister. And it was signed off by our former prime minister.

Is anyone still even admitting they voted for Brexit?

[Kato]

Former Environment Sec George Eustice has spoken about the post-Brexit UK/Australia trade deal in the Commons. He says now no longer a minister: "I no longer have to put such a positive gloss on what was agreed...the Australia deal is not actually a very good trade deal for the UK."

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1592203847946358787?s=20&t=Iqbggxs7TeaVWgnWyiIJ4w
Liar. (not you g)

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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/uk-economy-has-been-permanently-damaged-by-brexit-says-economist


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[Stairway 2 7]

@ElectionMapsUK
·

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?

Right to Leave: 32% (-3)
Wrong to Leave: 56% (+4)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Nov.
Changes w/ 1-2 Nov.

Largest EVER lead for 'Wrong to Leave' (polled since Aug 2016)

[grunt]

That discussion we were having about voter ID, and how it's not designed to suppress the votes of the younger generation ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhxC_DBXgAAm5On?format=jpg&name=900x900

[grunt]

From OBR report:

"Our trade forecast reflects our assumption that Brexit will result in the UK’s trade intensity being 15% lower in the long run than if the UK had remained in the EU. The latest evidence suggests that Brexit has had a significant adverse impact on UK trade."

[wookie70]

From OBR report:

"Our trade forecast reflects our assumption that Brexit will result in the UK’s trade intensity being 15% lower in the long run than if the UK had remained in the EU. The latest evidence suggests that Brexit has had a significant adverse impact on UK trade."

Given the OBR nearly always forecast more positively than the reality turns out to be I would guess it will be nearer 18-20%

[grunt]

Have you ever heard a more pathetic response than this from Victoria Atkins?

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1593339794393907208?s=20&t=-EsVkVDQfNhFKXLCF0l8Ng

[JeMeSouviens]

Have you ever heard a more pathetic response than this from Victoria Atkins?

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1593339794393907208?s=20&t=-EsVkVDQfNhFKXLCF0l8Ng

As pathetic as that is, it just fits into the "routinely pathetic" category these days. :rolleyes:

[grunt]

Sadiq Khan puts his head above the parapet:

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1593978950208061440?s=20&t=3Tq2Aa7n1XmNWlsnTWxHrQ


Let’s be honest: Brexit isn’t working.British exporters are struggling, our living standards are falling and the UK is now the only G7 country with a smaller economy than before the pandemic.Unless we face up to the harm Brexit is causing we can't start to address it.

[archie]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1594035405703225345?s=20&t=Iyx31re4ZF77EsKk58nMaQ

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1594035405703225345?s=20&t=Iyx31re4ZF77EsKk58nMaQ
Is that good? Does it include FOM?

[archie]

Is that good? Does it include FOM?I don't think so (at this stage). Suspect it is flying a kite to see how it lands.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't think so (at this stage). Suspect it is flying a kite to see how it lands.

It doesn't include FOM but I think it's the start of the softening up process.

[Glory Lurker]

We're going home, we're going home, we're going, UK's going home

[neil7908]

Don't worry everyone, Rishi believes in Brexit:

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/rishi-sunak-tries-to-quash-rumours-of-closer-alignment-with-eu-saying-i-believe-in-brexit-12752298

And as we all know, we just have to close our eyes and wish hard enough and all our problems will be solved.

And I thought this guy was supposed to be the serious Tory after all the banter under Truss in trashing the economy and costing us 10s of billions?

[Jack]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1594035405703225345?s=20&t=Iyx31re4ZF77EsKk58nMaQ

Had to laugh when a certain Jacob Rees Moggie said such a thing would negate all the trade agreements that had already been agreed.

[grunt]

Oh look another business packs up in the UK because of Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/21/200-jobs-at-risk-as-icelandic-fish-processing-firm-pulls-out-of-uk-brexit-coronavirus (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/21/200-jobs-at-risk-as-icelandic-fish-processing-firm-pulls-out-of-uk-brexit-coronavirus)

[grunt]

Brexit - analysis of post Brexit trade deals impact on GDP compared with Brexit impact itself:

https://twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1596566890343673856?s=20&t=110jH_8tTEkQU5oSQ5CEOg

This is a crime against the citizens of the UK, and those responsible should be in prison.

[grunt]

Here's the German ambassador to the UK, concerned about declining levels of trade between Germany and the UK:


UK is Germany’s third export market, but we are concerned that trade between the UK and Germany has continuously declined since the Brexit referendum. Britain has traditionally been Germany’s fifth largest trading partner. In 2022 UK will drop out of the list of the TOP 10 (blue line below).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fit1o5sXwAAyCxm?format=jpg&name=large

[grunt]

https://t.co/rrqGtyKV4B


Brexit and the economy: the hit has been ‘substantially negative’ via @FT (https://twitter.com/FT)

[Kato]

https://t.co/rrqGtyKV4BDavid Frost (not that one) claiming that trade is not GDP and that trade isn't linked to productivity.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1596088992965050371?t=f22OwZVpiQ9oGZcrKEKqKQ&s=19

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[Bostonhibby]

David Frost (not that one) claiming that trade is not GDP and that trade isn't linked to productivity.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1596088992965050371?t=f22OwZVpiQ9oGZcrKEKqKQ&s=19

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkCouldn't we just cancel all recognised methods of benchmarking GDP globally and start using the sunlituplandsometer?

Even if the inventor of said uplands has lost the latest in a long line of jobs and moved on to earning £250k upwards for speeches to anyone who will listen whilst those he has left behind in the er......well......uplands....struggle a bit

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[Kato]

Couldn't we just cancel all recognised methods of benchmarking GDP globally and start using the sunlituplandsometer?

Even if the inventor of said uplands has lost the latest in a long line of jobs and moved on to earning £250k upwards for speeches to anyone who will listen whilst those he has left behind in the er......well......uplands....struggle a bit

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkWhen I was a kid the economy was measured at the end of the news by showing the "balance of payments", then showing the footsy thingmwy which meant nowt to most was normalised. Then they started showing how well the country was doing by measuring "sales on the High Street", which was mental as a lot of that was tick.

Those things were shown on telly, sometimes every night.

What do they show at the end of the news now as the economic thermometer?

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[1875godsgift]

When I was a kid the economy was measured at the end of the news by showing the "balance of payments", then showing the footsy thingmwy which meant nowt to most was normalised. Then they started showing how well the country was doing by measuring "sales on the High Street", which was mental as a lot of that was tick.

Those things were shown on telly, sometimes every night.

What do they show at the end of the news now as the economic thermometer?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk


The weather?

[Kato]

The weather?Yeah. Heat banks. And food banks. The measure of how the country is faring.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

poor guy :agree: Wishaw business forced to stop all trade with EU due to Brexit | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23161092.wishaw-business-forced-stop-trade-eu-due-brexit/?ref=eb)


A SCOTTISH firm has revealed how it was forced to abandon all trade with Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe) after Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/news/brexit/) hammered the “nail into the coffin” of its export business.
Andrew Duff, who runs butchers MacDuff 1890, said it’s now easier to export to Hong Kong than it is to Europe

He said: “Brexit has, and will continue to be, an unmitigated disaster for households and businesses across these islands – reducing Scottish exports by a staggering £2.2 billion in the last year alone.

[Bostonhibby]

poor guy :agree: Wishaw business forced to stop all trade with EU due to Brexit | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23161092.wishaw-business-forced-stop-trade-eu-due-brexit/?ref=eb)


A SCOTTISH firm has revealed how it was forced to abandon all trade with Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe) after Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/news/brexit/) hammered the “nail into the coffin” of its export business.
Andrew Duff, who runs butchers MacDuff 1890, said it’s now easier to export to Hong Kong than it is to Europe

He said: “Brexit has, and will continue to be, an unmitigated disaster for households and businesses across these islands – reducing Scottish exports by a staggering £2.2 billion in the last year alone.


Disaster? That can't be right? Didn't Dim Lizzy do something with cheese and Bozo waved a kipper about on a stage somewhere.

Surely these more than offset actual trade losses otherwise where's the benefit?

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[archie]

poor guy :agree: Wishaw business forced to stop all trade with EU due to Brexit | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23161092.wishaw-business-forced-stop-trade-eu-due-brexit/?ref=eb)


A SCOTTISH firm has revealed how it was forced to abandon all trade with Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe) after Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/news/brexit/) hammered the “nail into the coffin” of its export business.
Andrew Duff, who runs butchers MacDuff 1890, said it’s now easier to export to Hong Kong than it is to Europe

He said: “Brexit has, and will continue to be, an unmitigated disaster for households and businesses across these islands – reducing Scottish exports by a staggering £2.2 billion in the last year alone.




It's reasonable to ask why are exports easier to Hong Kong than Europe?

[Ozyhibby]

It's reasonable to ask why are exports easier to Hong Kong than Europe?

Hong Kong is a less regulated market?


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[Jack]

It's reasonable to ask why are exports easier to Hong Kong than Europe?

Yes and it's also reasonable to ask why its so disproportionately difficult to export to our closest and main market.

Would you like to explain why that is?

[grunt]

It's reasonable to ask why are exports easier to Hong Kong than Europe?Agreed. This is absolutely the main thing to take away from this story.

:brickwall

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/01/brexit-added-nearly-6bn-to-uk-food-bills-in-two-years-research-finds?CMP=share_btn_tw

Brexit putting up food prices.


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[Jack]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/01/brexit-added-nearly-6bn-to-uk-food-bills-in-two-years-research-finds?CMP=share_btn_tw

Brexit putting up food prices.


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I can't think of anything where Brexit has reduced prices!

[archie]

Agreed. This is absolutely the main thing to take away from this story.

:brickwall

Why is it not a reasonable question? If it's easier to export to 6,000 milers away there must be barriers. Is it the UK or EU that are putting them up. It's really important in how we move forward to understand the actual impediments.

[grunt]

Why is it not a reasonable question? If it's easier to export to 6,000 milers away there must be barriers. Is it the UK or EU that are putting them up. It's really important in how we move forward to understand the actual impediments.We had the ability to export to 22 miles away with no unnecessary paperwork no red tape no delays and we gave it all away for no reason. Why did we do that? That's the only reasonable question here.

[archie]

We had the ability to export to 22 miles away with no unnecessary paperwork no red tape no delays and we gave it all away for no reason. Why did we do that? That's the only reasonable question here.

Not really. We can look backwards all we want, but to carve a route forward we mast understand the blockages and work out how to address them.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not really. We can look backwards all we want, but to carve a route forward we mast understand the blockages and work out how to address them.

Join the EU and it all goes away 😁

[archie]

Join the EU and it all goes away 😁
Fine. But given that's not on the table (and even if it was it would take years)we need to address these issues now.

[ronaldo7]

Join the EU and it all goes away 😁

Don't be daft.

We only need to think positive and make up some three word slogans and it'll all be fine. I'll start.

**** the jocks.

[Bostonhibby]

Don't be daft.

We only need to think positive and make up some three word slogans and it'll all be fine. I'll start.

**** the jocks.Sunlit Uplands

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1598249010468372480?t=bwEnioRBpHrW6bFG76SMcg&s=08

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[Moulin Yarns]

Fine. But given that's not on the table (and even if it was it would take years)we need to address these issues now.

It will be a lot quicker with an independent Scotland.

#getindependencedone 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't be daft.

We only need to think positive and make up some three word slogans and it'll all be fine. I'll start.

**** the jocks.

Where's the lifeboat?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1201/1339297-von-der-leyen-oireachtas/


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[grunt]

Fine. But given that's not on the table (and even if it was it would take years)we need to address these issues now.
Why would it take years?

[archie]

Why would it take years?

Because we would have to meet the accession criteria which includes a number of financial tests. https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/joining-eu_en

But before that we would need a currency and a functioning central bank.

[grunt]

Because we would have to meet the accession criteria which includes a number of financial tests. https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/joining-eu_en

But before that we would need a currency and a functioning central bank.

I'm sure this could all be resolved by negotiation and discussion, if we could only put forward a serious statesman to represent the UK.

[Kato]

Because we would have to meet the accession criteria which includes a number of financial tests. https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/joining-eu_en

But before that we would need a currency and a functioning central bank.I know, it's quite thrilling to look forward to these things.

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[archie]

I know, it's quite thrilling to look forward to these things.

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Maybe you should get out more?

[archie]

I'm sure this could all be resolved by negotiation and discussion, if we could only put forward a serious statesman to represent the UK.

Well it can all be resolved (I presume you mean by a Scottish Government). But it will take time and some pain (which might well be worth it).

[Kato]

Maybe you should get out more?Meany.

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[Jack]

Not really. We can look backwards all we want, but to carve a route forward we mast understand the blockages and work out how to address them.

It's all very well you coming on here and sounding all reasonable in most of your posts but we all know it's not going to happen. The torys would rather break the law, national and international, than negotiate and Labour show no signs of being any better than tory lite.

[archie]

Meany.

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I was, wasn't I!

[grunt]

"We'll match EU funding" said Vote Leave

The last EU funding package for Cornwall was worth £515M over 6 years.

The Tories have offered £350M OVER 30 YEARS!

All they had to do for the EU money was publicise the EU logo, this time they must have an elected Mayor.

[Stairway 2 7]

Brexit voters changing their mind too late

https://inews.co.uk/news/leave-voters-changed-minds-brexit-2002261

[grunt]

Brexit voters changing their mind too late

https://inews.co.uk/news/leave-voters-changed-minds-brexit-2002261Anyone with half a functioning brain would have known it was a mistake. These fools shouldn't ever be allowed to vote again.

[Jack]

Not very helpful to our struggling NHS

"Brexit has worsened doctor shortages in the UK, according to a study published on Sunday. The Nuffield Trust, a think tank specialising in health care, found that Britain's split from the European Union (EU) left the country short of 4,000 doctors in many key areas."

[WhileTheChief..]

Anyone with half a functioning brain would have known it was a mistake. These fools shouldn't ever be allowed to vote again.

Do you mean these 2 women or the half the country that voted to leave?

Think about it for a second. Even if I was a fool for voting to leave, you really think I shouldn’t be allowed to vote again? That also apply to Indy or any other subject?

That’s sounding pretty authoritarian to me. Don’t you have any tolerance for anyone that votes differently or disagrees with you?

[Bostonhibby]

Not very helpful to our struggling NHS

"Brexit has worsened doctor shortages in the UK, according to a study published on Sunday. The Nuffield Trust, a think tank specialising in health care, found that Britain's split from the European Union (EU) left the country short of 4,000 doctors in many key areas."Surely the extra £250m a week that Bozo promised for the NHS as a result of leaving Europe is making a difference?

It was on the side of a bus and everything.

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[Kato]

Surely the extra £250m a week that Bozo promised for the NHS as a result of leaving Europe is making a difference?

It was on the side of a bus and everything.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkIt was £350m. Might as well be £350T as it was a load of lies. Still broad shoulders and all that.

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[grunt]

Do you mean these 2 women or the half the country that voted to leave?

Think about it for a second. Even if I was a fool for voting to leave, you really think I shouldn’t be allowed to vote again? That also apply to Indy or any other subject?

That’s sounding pretty authoritarian to me. Don’t you have any tolerance for anyone that votes differently or disagrees with you?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

[Bostonhibby]

It was £350m. Might as well be £350T as it was a load of lies. Still broad shoulders and all that.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk[emoji106] someone must have trousered the missing £100m[emoji16]

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/andybounds/status/1600006993238020099?s=46&t=XzGNoSiVr1X1X8I0QDHjaw

Electric cars to face a 10% tariff due to brexit. Will be handy in next Indy debate to be able to point out that cars will get 10% cheaper.[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Couldn't find an Irish independence poll but would obviously effect a brexit border deal

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/12/03/poll-shows-northern-ireland-rejects-unity-by-large-margin/

Northern Ireland would vote decisively against a united Ireland if there was a Border poll, according to an Ipsos opinion poll for a new research project into North-South relations and political views on the future of the island.

The poll shows almost twice as many voters who expressed a preference want to remain in the United Kingdom.

In the Republic, however, there is a majority of more than four to one in favour of unity, according to a simultaneous and identical poll.

[grunt]

London Is No Longer Europe’s Financial Center Because of Brexit, Euronext Boss Says

https://t.co/KDzqY0sWll

[grunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/07/city-faces-fresh-post-brexit-blow-as-eu-moves-to-restrict-certain-trades

City faces fresh post-Brexit blow as EU moves to restrict certain trades

[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/07/city-faces-fresh-post-brexit-blow-as-eu-moves-to-restrict-certain-trades

City faces fresh post-Brexit blow as EU moves to restrict certain tradesErrm, strong and stable. Putin something something borders.

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[grunt]

We had got to get out from under Westminster rule
Britain’s largest packaging company will close its factory in Kent and continue to expand production in Europe, warning that a planned bonfire of EU laws risked plunging the UK into a deeper economic crisis

https://t.co/sPZi2jNeno

[grunt]

We have got to get out from under Westminster rule


Ready for the next banking crash? UK Govt to reverse post 2007-08 crash regulation. Lower equity base, no ring-fencing of investment banking, no personal accountability, unlimited bonuses. No regulation of hedge funds, private equity.

https://t.co/s7JQ8vRWzY

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/11/keir-starmer-economic-disaster-of-brexit-labour-grandees-peter-hain?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1670746939

Starmer has turned into a brexiteer. He doesn’t care what harm he is doing to Scotland, so long as he wins votes in England.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/11/keir-starmer-economic-disaster-of-brexit-labour-grandees-peter-hain?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1670746939

Starmer has turned into a brexiteer. He doesn’t care what harm he is doing to Scotland, so long as he wins votes in England.


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There are no politicians with vision anymore. Instead of working to get the electorate to buy into a plan to make things better, they're all out chasing votes by trying to adopt a position that fits where the votes are. Nothing can change that way and we'll continue in a never ending spiral to the bottom until someone can sell us some kind of vision on how we can do things better. The nearest we have to that is independence.

[grunt]

There are no politicians with vision anymore. Instead of working to get the electorate to buy into a plan to make things better, they're all out chasing votes by trying to adopt a position that fits where the votes are. Nothing can change that way and we'll continue in a never ending spiral to the bottom until someone can sell us some kind of vision on how we can do things better. The nearest we have to that is independence.
Good post. :aok:

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkF9vK-XwAAKgtX?format=jpg&name=medium

[archie]

There are no politicians with vision anymore. Instead of working to get the electorate to buy into a plan to make things better, they're all out chasing votes by trying to adopt a position that fits where the votes are. Nothing can change that way and we'll continue in a never ending spiral to the bottom until someone can sell us some kind of vision on how we can do things better. The nearest we have to that is independence.

I hesitate to ask, but how would independence change that?

[Hibrandenburg]

I hesitate to ask, but how would independence change that?

It's a vision of how Scotland could be run. There's zero vision involved going forward in the UK because our laws governing parliament are centuries old and are designed to retain the status quo. Independence would give Scotland the chance to form a modern democracy unchained from the hereditary passage of power from a system designed to benefit generation after generation of those fortunate to be born into the right class with money.

Scotland has the chance to press the reset button and build a society tapered to our needs and formed using successful models used in other small independent democracies. There will be no desire for change any time soon in England and thus no chance of change in Scotland as long as we're tied to the Union.

[grunt]

It's a vision of how Scotland could be run.
:top marks

[James310]

It's a vision of how Scotland could be run. There's zero vision involved going forward in the UK because our laws governing parliament are centuries old and are designed to retain the status quo. Independence would give Scotland the chance to form a modern democracy unchained from the hereditary passage of power from a system designed to benefit generation after generation of those fortunate to be born into the right class with money.

Scotland has the chance to press the reset button and build a society tapered to our needs and formed using successful models used in other small independent democracies. There will be no desire for change any time soon in England and thus no chance of change in Scotland as long as we're tied to the Union.

That would be a great speech if we never had a referendum in 2014. The centuries old laws designed to maintain the status quo must have disappeared or done a runner for a period of time as Scotland had it's largest ever democratic exercise in it's history with millions taking part in both campaigns over a few years. What happened to the old out of date laws that were supposed to prevent that happening? The people of Scotland were given an opportunity to form this modern democracy you talk about and they looked at the plans and they said eh naw, your alright actually.

[grunt]

That would be a great speech if we never had a referendum in 2014.
Democracy's a real pain, isn't it?

Why can't these separatists just sit down and shut up?

What are you so afraid of?

[James310]

Democracy's a real pain, isn't it?

Why can't these separatists just sit down and shut up?

What are you so afraid of?

No democracy is great, we have had loads of it in recent times. 2 referendums, 3 General Elections and 2 Scottish Elections all since 2014!

[Ozyhibby]

No democracy is great, we have had loads of it in recent times. 2 referendums, 3 General Elections and 2 Scottish Elections all since 2014!

Especially when you can just disregard the result when it doesn’t suit you.


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[James310]

Especially when you can just disregard the result when it doesn’t suit you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Like the 2014 and 2016 referendums? The ones some people want to have again because the result never suited them, like that?

[Kato]

Democracy's a real pain, isn't it?

Why can't these separatists just sit down and shut up?

What are you so afraid of?Why even bother. It's been explained umptyfour times on here but the disingenuousness carries on.

Pretty insulting really.

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[weecounty hibby]

Like the 2014 and 2016 referendums? The ones some people want to have again because the result never suited them, like that?
That truly would be democratic though. Things have changed significantly enough for an indyref. And now that people see what Brexit actually means rather than just some sloganeering then it should be reviewed. Sadly democracy will be ignored on both fronts as the establishment have got what they wanted out of both

[Hibrandenburg]

That would be a great speech if we never had a referendum in 2014. The centuries old laws designed to maintain the status quo must have disappeared or done a runner for a period of time as Scotland had it's largest ever democratic exercise in it's history with millions taking part in both campaigns over a few years. What happened to the old out of date laws that were supposed to prevent that happening? The people of Scotland were given an opportunity to form this modern democracy you talk about and they looked at the plans and they said eh naw, your alright actually.

We'll win in the long run, you do realise that don't you? It's a matter of how and when, not if.

[Keith_M]

Back to Brexit....


350 Million pound a week extra for the NHS. Surely that's more than enough to give the Nurses their pay rise?





26343

[Bostonhibby]

Back to Brexit....


$350Million pound a week extra for the NHS. Surely that's more than enough to give the Nurses their pay rise?





26343I think the nasties gave it to their chums disguised as PPE contracts instead?

Baroness Mone's families share appears to have been less than a weeks, they must surely feel hard done by if true?

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[grunt]

$350Million pound a week extra for the NHS. Surely that's more than enough to give the Nurses their pay rise?
"The NHS got that money" according to Lord Snooty on BBCQT

https://twitter.com/TopNewsWorks/status/1603519544294793223?s=20&t=w4DeJwM_cjSrhTi7HqTm9A

[Keith_M]

"The NHS got that money" according to Lord Snooty on BBCQT

https://twitter.com/TopNewsWorks/status/1603519544294793223?s=20&t=w4DeJwM_cjSrhTi7HqTm9A


🤣

[Bostonhibby]

"The NHS got that money" according to Lord Snooty on BBCQT

https://twitter.com/TopNewsWorks/status/1603519544294793223?s=20&t=w4DeJwM_cjSrhTi7HqTm9ACould technically be true, they had to launder it through somewhere then onto their chums/donators.

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[Kato]

Could technically be true, they had to launder it through somewhere then onto their chums/donators.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkThat sounds like a joke but it ain't. All the VIP Lane contract amounts have been added onto "NHS spending" for the purpose of Govt accounting. So it looks like NHS spending but its actually one of their heists.

I'm not sure if the Track and Trace spending with Serco has been added into NHS spending as well but would not be surprised.



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[Bostonhibby]

That sounds like a joke but it ain't. All the VIP Lane contract amounts have been added onto "NHS spending" for the purpose of Govt accounting. So it looks like NHS spending but its actually one of their heists.

I'm not sure if the Track and Trace spending with Serco has been added into NHS spending as well but would not be surprised.



Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkI rarely joke about such things[emoji16]

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[Glory Lurker]

"The NHS got that money" according to Lord Snooty on BBCQT

https://twitter.com/TopNewsWorks/status/1603519544294793223?s=20&t=w4DeJwM_cjSrhTi7HqTm9A

He is a horrible person. Ruling over us.

[Jack]

He is a horrible person. Ruling over us.

A reason for independence on its own.

[grunt]

Brexit working out well then.

https://t.co/qlTsZilWma


Brexit costs government £40 billion a year in lost tax revenue

[Kato]

Brexit working out well then.

https://t.co/qlTsZilWmaTory MPs out in force to deny these figures today.

Denying the effects of brexit is a sure fire way to hear a Tory MP speak "passionately" ie lie through their teeth.

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[grunt]

Brexit working out well then

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-ministerial-government-cars-made-in-germany-audi-b2250544.html


Brexit means no UK manufacturer able to build UK ministerial cars. Govt’s next fleet of armoured cars will be made in Germany because supply chain issues hampered by Brexit mean no British manufacturer is able to meet its requirements.

[grunt]

Brexit working out well then

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/target-date-for-cleaning-up-englands-waterways-pushed-back-by-36-years-340952/


The target date for cleaning up England’s waterways has been pushed back … by a casual 36 years.

The Environment Agency pledged on Thursday to invest £5.3 billion to stop the further deterioration of waterways.

Not one English waterway, including rivers, lakes, estuaries and coastal waters is in good ecological and chemical health at present, with pollution from water treatment plants and agriculture the key sources of the damage.

But the summary documents within the plan reveal the target for all 3,651 water bodies to achieve good chemical and ecological status – a state in which they are as close to their natural state as possible – was now decades away in 2063.

Until Brexit, the UK government was signed up to the water framework directive, which required countries to make sure all their waters achieved “good” chemical and ecological status by 2027 at the latest.

[grunt]

Brexit working out well then

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1606580838342176769?s=20&t=ZtJqXK6yc3Afz9Lc29eLvw


New pork markets!

Great news for British farmers who can now sell pork to South Korea!

We've removed a barrier which blocked exports of products such as bacon & pork sausages and could be worth up to £1 million over five years.

This is not a joke.

[Bostonhibby]

Brexit working out well then

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/1606580838342176769?s=20&t=ZtJqXK6yc3Afz9Lc29eLvw



This is not a joke.Meanwhile a pound of pork sausages in the UK will cost £1m in 5 years time.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221224/a6d6e2eb54fc70a327ce3cba598da25a.jpg


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[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk-kfBnWQAIR1UA?format=jpg&name=small

[grunt]

Brexit working out well then

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-benefits-israel-b2245807.html?amp


The government has refused to publish an estimate of the economic benefits of its latest planned Brexit trade deal.

[wookie70]

Brexit working out well then.

https://t.co/qlTsZilWma 109 million every day.

[grunt]

Brexit working out well then.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlYVB8_XkAER7MR?format=jpg&name=large

[Smartie]

Brexit working out well then.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlYVB8_XkAER7MR?format=jpg&name=large

I actually thought it would have been significantly more than that.

[marinello59]

I actually thought it would have been significantly more than that.

Me too. And in the interest of balance can we blame all of that on Brexit? Covid and the war in Ukraine has surely played a part in that as well. My experience in Poland was that prices were surging significantly there as well.

[grunt]

I actually thought it would have been significantly more than that.


Me too. And in the interest of balance can we blame all of that on Brexit? Covid and the war in Ukraine has surely played a part in that as well. My experience in Poland was that prices were surging significantly there as well.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2022/l-December-22/By-the-end-of-2021-Brexit-had-already-cost-UK-households-a-total-of-5.8-billion-in-higher-food-bills-–-new-LSE-research


“The UK inflation rate rose above 11 per cent in 2022, the highest rate in 40 years. Many factors, affecting both supply and demand for goods and services, are involved. One factor in this high inflation has been the rise in non-tariff barriers for trade with the EU.

“In leaving the EU, the UK swapped a deep trade relationship with few impediments to trade for one where a wide range of checks, forms and steps are required before goods can cross the border. Firms faced higher costs and passed most of these onto consumers. Over the two years to the end of 2021, Brexit increased food prices by around six per cent overall.”

[Hibbyradge]

Me too. And in the interest of balance can we blame all of that on Brexit? Covid and the war in Ukraine has surely played a part in that as well. My experience in Poland was that prices were surging significantly there as well.

I think the figure that's quoted is purely the extra cost which Brexit has caused.

The pandemic and cost of living increases, including fuel, are on top, and significantly higher than £210.

[marinello59]

I think the figure that's quoted is purely the extra cost which Brexit has caused.

The pandemic and cost of living increases, including fuel are on top, and significantly higher than £210.

That makes sense, thanks.

[marinello59]

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2022/l-December-22/By-the-end-of-2021-Brexit-had-already-cost-UK-households-a-total-of-5.8-billion-in-higher-food-bills-–-new-LSE-research

Interesting that domestic food producers are actually doing better. Nobody likes price rises but the prices supermarkets etc we’re paying to farmers here were scandalously low. Add in the reduction in food miles if we are buying more domestically produced goods and there is a small benefit there. Leaving has still been a disaster though.

[grunt]

"But what currency will Scotland use ...?"

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2022/12/31/nikola-tesla-to-appear-on-coins-as-croatia-joins-the-euro/ (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2022/12/31/nikola-tesla-to-appear-on-coins-as-croatia-joins-the-euro/)


The number of countries using the euro will reach 20 this weekend as Croatia adopts the currency.

The coastal country of just under four million people is simultaneously joining the euro zone and the Schengen area of free travel on Sunday, January 1st.

The date marks the end of a long road for those who advocated for the greater European Union integration of a major tourism economy which gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991.

[Ozyhibby]

Me too. And in the interest of balance can we blame all of that on Brexit? Covid and the war in Ukraine has surely played a part in that as well. My experience in Poland was that prices were surging significantly there as well.

That’s why it’s only £210. Your food bill will have gone up more than £210.


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[marinello59]

That’s why it’s only £210. Your food bill will have gone up more than £210.


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You seem to have misunderstood my post. I had assumed £210 was the increase including all other factors as well. Somebody else already put me right on that one. Thanks though. :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

Me too. And in the interest of balance can we blame all of that on Brexit? Covid and the war in Ukraine has surely played a part in that as well. My experience in Poland was that prices were surging significantly there as well.Kwakers and Dim Lizzy now have desk jobs adding up numbers behind the scenes?

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[grunt]

Brexit and Pink Floyd; what more could you ask for?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/wreckage-of-brexit-politicians-denial?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/pippacrerar/status/1610543549262462983?s=46&t=2SzNxez76eIfSLBDDsp6hw

I guess it’s good they are admitting it’s a disaster.


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[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlzKqr8XwAcQKdn?format=jpg&name=medium

[grunt]

Brexit going well then

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/tory-voters-now-believe-costs-of-brexit-outweigh-benefits-341621/


Conservative voters are losing faith in Brexit, according to new polling published in The Telegraph, with many now believing that the costs outweigh the benefits.

Scepticism among Tory supporters towards Britain’s departure from the EU is now greater than support for how it is going, the poll revealed, with a third of those planning to vote Conservative at the next election saying they believe Brexit had created more problems than it solved.

[Bostonhibby]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlzKqr8XwAcQKdn?format=jpg&name=mediumChanged their mind, but don't know why?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[grunt]

Changed their mind, but don't know why?This graph is based on a question that needed to be completed in the respondents' own words. I guess these people just left the box blank.

[Bostonhibby]

This graph is based on a question that needed to be completed in the respondents' own words. I guess these people just left the box blank.[emoji106]

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[Ozyhibby]

Looking at the news over the last couple of days, it appears that Sunak’s solution to the NI protocol is just to actually implement it. It’s probably the only thing he could do but NI unionists will not be happy.


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[Bostonhibby]

Looking at the news over the last couple of days, it appears that Sunak’s solution to the NI protocol is just to actually implement it. It’s probably the only thing he could do but NI unionists will not be happy.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHave you ever seen a truly happy one? Always seem to be scowling and looking for something to be staunch or indignant about.

Gaun yirsel Rishi. Wait until someone tells him where and what N.Ireland is.

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[Kato]

Looking at the news over the last couple of days, it appears that Sunak’s solution to the NI protocol is just to actually implement it. It’s probably the only thing he could do but NI unionists will not be happy.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkKate (p)Hoey was on Newsnight the other night talking about a land border being implemented along with "technical electronic stuff" which would solve the problem of goods travelling cross border.

The "technical electronic stuff" remains unspecified and the interviewer missed the chance somehow to ask her to specify what this "technical electronic stuff" actually is.


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[Kato]

Have you ever seen a truly happy one? Always seem to be scowling and looking for something to be staunch or indignant about.



The Presbyterian Taliban. What do you expect?

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[Bostonhibby]

The Presbyterian Taliban. What do you expect?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk[emoji106]

Cannae see the Taliban wearing those ridiculous hats and sashes though.

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[Kato]

[emoji106]

Cannae see the Taliban wearing those ridiculous hats and sashes though.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk..they'd rather wear a turban by the looks of things.

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[hibsbollah]

Sadiq Khan breaks cover. I fully expect GB News, Morrissey, Marc Francois and Sauron to be fuming.

https://labourlist.org/2023/01/khan-to-argue-brexit-isnt-working-and-call-for-greater-alignment-with-europe/?amp

[Just Alf]

Ironically the NI protocol implemented on the Scottish border allowing Scotland to have some EU single market benefits would dim the lights of those agitating for a 2nd indy referendum because brexit had moved the goal posts.

[Ozyhibby]

Ironically the NI protocol implemented on the Scottish border allowing Scotland to have some EU single market benefits would dim the lights of those agitating for a 2nd indy referendum because brexit had moved the goal posts.

They don’t seem smart enough to do it though but I agree it would.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Ironically the NI protocol implemented on the Scottish border allowing Scotland to have some EU single market benefits would dim the lights of those agitating for a 2nd indy referendum because brexit had moved the goal posts.

I think the main plank of the anti-independence strategy is make Scotland poor and afraid, not better off.

[grunt]

How it started:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fmrr9vMXoAAb99G?format=png&name=small

[grunt]

How it's going:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fmrr-utXEAAMJLd?format=png&name=small

[James310]

How it's going:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fmrr-utXEAAMJLd?format=png&name=small

Well as I keep saying what do people expect if you put up barriers with your biggest trading partners. Bad idea wasn't it.

[Just Alf]

Well as I keep saying what do people expect if you put up barriers with your biggest trading partners. Bad idea wasn't it.Agreed, they had the chance of a 'soft brexit', negotiating a common market that would have helped both sides etc etc... but decided to ignore almost half their own population that voted remain.

[Bostonhibby]

Agreed, they had the chance of a 'soft brexit', negotiating a common market that would have helped both sides etc etc... but decided to ignore almost half their own population that voted remain.What any non flag waver would sensibly have done but this mess was riding along on the crest of a UK/English nationalist wave, a great many never even contemplated trade being where it is today and blame the sorry state of our economy on anything but Brexit.

I have the misfortune to know someone who said at the time of Brexit that we would bring the German and French car markets to their knees without us buying their cars, he still believes it now and has recently replaced his German car with a french made one.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Brexit is a bin for Italian real estate as bankers leave

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-21/milan-luxury-real-estate-booms-as-bankers-leave-london-for-italy

[grunt]

In a book written by an adviser to M Barnier, it is revealed that Johnson phoned Barnier on the morning of the deal to get the EU to drop the requirement for NI-GB exit declarations.

Johnson is a cretin and has caused so much damage to this country.

[ronaldo7]

In a book written by an adviser to M Barnier, it is revealed that Johnson phoned Barnier on the morning of the deal to get the EU to drop the requirement for NI-GB exit declarations.

Johnson is a cretin and has caused so much damage to this country.

The baton has been picked up by David Lammy confirming that labour will not countenance any thought of joining the single market and ruled out freedom of movement.

Make Brexit work, used by starmer and co are a brexit leading party now.

Other 3 word slogans used by Rachel Reeves this week end include, drain the swamp.

Trump would be proud.

[Ozyhibby]

The baton has been picked up by David Lammy confirming that labour will not countenance any thought of joining the single market and ruled out freedom of movement.

Make Brexit work, used by starmer and co are a brexit leading party now.

Other 3 word slogans used by Rachel Reeves this week end include, drain the swamp.

Trump would be proud.

Vote yes for the right to live and work in 27 countries across Europe. [emoji106]


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[The Tubs]

Well as I keep saying what do people expect if you put up barriers with your biggest trading partners. Bad idea wasn't it.

When said trading partner is determined to commit economic suicide, there may not be any other option than to find other relationships.

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64399748.amp


UK car production collapses to lowest for 66 years

[grunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/26/visitor-to-uk-parliament-made-to-cover-stop-brexit-sticker-on-laptop?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Visitor to UK parliament made to cover ‘stop Brexit’ sticker on laptop

[grunt]

https://www.politico.eu/article/experts-brexit-protocol-is-boosting-northern-ireland-economy/


BELFAST — The post-Brexit trade protocol is helping, not hurting, growth and profitability in Northern Ireland because of its advantageous access to EU markets, according to a British economic think tank.

Wednesday’s findings from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research pour cold water on Conservative and Democratic Unionist claims that the protocol’s requirement for EU checks on British goods arriving in Northern Ireland has undermined business opportunities.

As part of its latest quarterly report on the U.K.’s economic outlook, the London-based research group says available data shows the reverse is true. It says Northern Ireland’s economic output “has slightly outperformed the U.K. average.”

[Kato]

https://www.politico.eu/article/experts-brexit-protocol-is-boosting-northern-ireland-economy/The more crackpot Unionists in the northern bit of Ireland don't want success if it means a connection with the EU. They want all the awkwardness, disadvantage and miserable form filling we have on the Leeward Isle.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

good old Brexit, Rool britania yay

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/01/31/01/67145079-11694623-image-a-92_1675128228241.jpg

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/31/three-years-on-brexit-uk-voters-rejoining-eu-labour-europe

A deeply pointless Polly Toynbee article, 80% of which sets out the damage Brexit has done, 10% of it navel gazing about what the loony right wing have been calling us (boo hoo) and 10% coming to the odd conclusion that putting the case for re-integration is too risky for Labour.

Another example of a 'bedwetter' tendency among certain pro-European Labour supporters. If the polls look so good for a re-integration with Europe, why continue running scared from the press? The economic damage inflicted by the point if/when Labour DO take power may be too great to do anything important while in power anyway. Make the case for 'the national interest' (Starmer usually likes this position) and be brave for once.

[archie]

Serious question. How do people here feel about Angus Robertson's assertion that a yes vote for independence would be taken as a vote to join the EU.

[Kato]

Serious question. How do people here feel about Angus Robertson's assertion that a yes vote for independence would be taken as a vote to join the EU.I don't think you smear voting intentions around in that manner. Many SNP voters voted Leave.

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[KWJ]

Serious question. How do people here feel about Angus Robertson's assertion that a yes vote for independence would be taken as a vote to join the EU.

I'm behind it and would expect it to be part of the YES campaign. I know there some that would like Independence from UK AND Europe but I think the numbers are pretty small.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnyAM65XkAEaRFG?format=jpg&name=900x900

[grunt]

Serious question. How do people here feel about Angus Robertson's assertion that a yes vote for independence would be taken as a vote to join the EU.
Happy with that. The sooner the better.

[hibsbollah]

Serious question. How do people here feel about Angus Robertson's assertion that a yes vote for independence would be taken as a vote to join the EU.

I believe Denmark voted against ratifying Maastricht, but then re-entered without going back to the people for a Ref2. So theres some sort of precedent. I bet there is no consititutional requirement to go back for a Ref2, although I dont know for sure. Then there's the democratic legitimacy question...does overwhelming support in polls and a Yes vote for indy in a referendum amount to enough of a 'moral' mandate? I think it would.

But the EU path for re-admission is the main question that needs resolved i would have thought, not an independent Scotland's process for ratifying a mandate, which they would win surely anyway.

[archie]

I believe Denmark voted against ratifying Maastricht, but then re-entered without going back to the people for a Ref2. So theres some sort of precedent. I bet there is no consititutional requirement to go back for a Ref2, although I dont know for sure. Then there's the democratic legitimacy question...does overwhelming support in polls and a Yes vote for indy in a referendum amount to enough of a 'moral' mandate? I think it would.

But the EU path for re-admission is the main question that needs resolved i would have thought, not an independent Scotland's process for ratifying a mandate, which they would win surely anyway.
As a remain voter who would vote to join, I was surprised given a) the democratic legitimacy point that the SNP raise around Brexit and b) that a significant number of yes voters voted leave. I guess they have done the maths, but even so. In addition, I would want to know the terms of any deal before I went in. Doesn't having a referendum on entry give some leverage on the terms that the EU would apply. If you say it's subject to a referendum they may be softer than if you give an unqualified commitment to join.

[Ozyhibby]

I believe Denmark voted against ratifying Maastricht, but then re-entered without going back to the people for a Ref2. So theres some sort of precedent. I bet there is no consititutional requirement to go back for a Ref2, although I dont know for sure. Then there's the democratic legitimacy question...does overwhelming support in polls and a Yes vote for indy in a referendum amount to enough of a 'moral' mandate? I think it would.

But the EU path for re-admission is the main question that needs resolved i would have thought, not an independent Scotland's process for ratifying a mandate, which they would win surely anyway.

I think the EU path would be pretty straightforward. I think the Scottish govt will be very easy to deal with in signing up fully to the EU project.
I do think the EU might ask us to confirm by referendum that we are committed as a country to signing up. They won’t want another UK.


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[Ozyhibby]

As a remain voter who would vote to join, I was surprised given a) the democratic legitimacy point that the SNP raise around Brexit and b) that a significant number of yes voters voted leave. I guess they have done the maths, but even so. In addition, I would want to know the terms of any deal before I went in. Doesn't having a referendum on entry give some leverage on the terms that the EU would apply. If you say it's subject to a referendum they may be softer than if you give an unqualified commitment to join.

I don’t think there will be any opt outs that other countries don’t have other than a few basics which don’t affect the other members. Prob won’t insist on Schengen just because we don’t have land borders anyway. We’ll need to sign up with a view to one day joining the Euro even if we never get there. All the other opt outs the UK had will be gone. Most of them were for the benefit of business and not people anyway.


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[hibsbollah]

I don’t think there will be any opt outs that other countries don’t have other than a few basics which don’t affect the other members. Prob won’t insist on Schengen just because we don’t have land borders anyway. We’ll need to sign up with a view to one day joining the Euro even if we never get there. All the other opt outs the UK had will be gone. Most of them were for the benefit of business and not people anyway.


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Has the Spanish/Catalonia issue now become less of a hurdle? I recall that was discussed a lot but I know the Spanish have elected a new government since then.

[Ozyhibby]

Has the Spanish/Catalonia issue now become less of a hurdle? I recall that was discussed a lot but I know the Spanish have elected a new government since then.

So long as the process is legal and respected by international community, Spain don’t have a problem.


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[James310]

So long as the process is legal and respected by international community, Spain don’t have a problem.


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So not a de facto referendum then, an actual referendum?

Also do you have any evidence Spain won't have a problem? I probably agree with you if it's legal and respected by the EU and UN but don't see anything official from Spain.

[Ozyhibby]

So not a de facto referendum then, an actual referendum?

Also do you have any evidence Spain won't have a problem? I probably agree with you if it's legal and respected by the EU and UN but don't see anything official from Spain.

I agree that a de-facto referendum isn’t going to cut it and I expect that position to be towed back from slightly. The campaign will remain about Indy though.
With Spain, there is precedence and the fact they have always said so long as it’s legal. They had no objection to Czech Republic or Slovakia joining as Indy nations.


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[archie]

So not a de facto referendum then, an actual referendum?

Also do you have any evidence Spain won't have a problem? I probably agree with you if it's legal and respected by the EU and UN but don't see anything official from Spain.I can't see the EU having an issue with an independent Scotland that became so by legal means. Anything less than that would be a no no.

[James310]

I agree that a de-facto referendum isn’t going to cut it and I expect that position to be towed back from slightly. The campaign will remain about Indy though.
With Spain, there is precedence and the fact they have always said so long as it’s legal. They had no objection to Czech Republic or Slovakia joining as Indy nations.


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Oddly we agree on most things, a de facto referendum is useless if you want international recognition. I am not sure "Spain" have indicated as you suggest as for every official that says one thing another comes along and says the opposite. It will depend who is in government at that time in Spain.

[ronaldo7]

I agree that a de-facto referendum isn’t going to cut it and I expect that position to be towed back from slightly. The campaign will remain about Indy though.
With Spain, there is precedence and the fact they have always said so long as it’s legal. They had no objection to Czech Republic or Slovakia joining as Indy nations.


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2018 Spanish position.

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

[James310]

2018 Spanish position.

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

What's odd is when I said the EU was clear in stating a vote for Yes in the 2014 referendum was a vote to leave the EU and showed the evidence from the EU signed by ¥iwiant Reding who was the
vice-President of the European Commission
Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship I was told that's not valid as it's just one person.

Now it seems we are ok with one person from the EU saying something and accepting it as fact, just because they are saying the thing we want them to say I see.

I see how it works now.

[ronaldo7]

What's odd is when I said the EU was clear in stating a vote for Yes in the 2014 referendum was a vote to leave the EU and showed the evidence from the EU signed by ¥iwiant Reding who was the
vice-President of the European Commission
Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship I was told that's not valid as it's just one person.

Now it seems we are ok with one person from the EU saying something and accepting it as fact, just because they are saying the thing we want them to say I see.

I see how it works now.

Keep yer knickers on James.

I'm only quoting what he said. 😂

FWIW, I think Spain will take a view as they have with other independent nations joining.

Carry on lads, the more the merrier. 🌏

[archie]

Keep yer knickers on James.

I'm only quoting what he said. 😂

FWIW, I think Spain will take a view as they have with other independent nations joining.

Carry on lads, the more the merrier. 🌏

Although clearly the terms of joining would be important. Would we be a net contributor for example.

[ronaldo7]

Although clearly the terms of joining would be important. Would we be a net contributor for example.

Of course it would, however we've moved a long way from the position in 2014.

I wonder how many scare stories the unionists can come up with this time.

To answer your earlier question, I'd rather he was more nuanced in his stance, as many, SNP vote leave people will have seen the debacle Brexit has brought us, and will be onboard the return train now.

I don't think many will be arguing to stay outside the EU with Farage, Starmer, Sunak, and broken Britain.

[Ozyhibby]

Although clearly the terms of joining would be important. Would we be a net contributor for example.

Remember when the UK thought it was a net contributor.[emoji51]


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[archie]

Remember when the UK thought it was a net contributor.[emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was.

[James310]

Remember when the UK thought it was a net contributor.[emoji51]


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??

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

[Ozyhibby]

It was.


??

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

We are losing about £2bn a week in lost trade and £40bn a year in lost tax revenues. We got out a lot more than we put in. Being outside the EU is an ongoing disaster.


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[archie]

We are losing about £2bn a week in lost trade and £40bn a year in lost tax revenues. We got out a lot more than we put in. Being outside the EU is an ongoing disaster.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's not the same thing.

[ronaldo7]

That's not the same thing.

Being a member of the club had more benefits than not.

Are you saying differently?

[archie]

The more I think about this latest announcement, the less there is to it. Let's work this through. It is being said that a vote for independence would be a vote to join the EU. I think that doesn't stack up for a number of reasons:

- It's unlikely that any referendum question would cover both Scottish Independence and EU application. It would be really bad practice and I doubt UKG would allow.
- In the light of that it would only be an SNP commitment.
- Independence would be a process over a number of years. Scotland could have back channel discussions with EU, but couldn't apply until independent.
- The serious discussion of meeting the convergence criteria could only start once there was a clear understanding of the Scottish economic position post independence.
- The EU application process takes years - the EU's own documentation says that.
- All this assumes that the SNP is in power over this period as they would probably be the only ones to give that committment.
- This could mean that a vote on Scottish Independence is taken as legitimising joining the EU maybe up to 10 years later.
- And that's before we consider any democratic legitimacy issues at the core of it.

So I'm thinking this is about something different. Perhaps trying to create a story to break some of the noise that has been engulfing SG over the last wee while?

[archie]

Being a member of the club had more benefits than not.

Are you saying differently?I was a remainer. But lets stick with facts. Britain was a net contributer.

[ronaldo7]

I was a remainer. But lets stick with facts. Britain was a net contributer.

I think the deal was definitely better than what we've got now, but each to their own.

[grunt]

I was a remainer. But let's stick with facts. Britain was a net contributer.Depends how you measure it. Far too many simplistic discussions around Brexit and the EU and this is just another. You might as well say that you're a net contributor to Hibs. A meaningless measure.

[ronaldo7]

Depends how you measure it. Far too many simplistic discussions around Brexit and the EU and this is just another. You might as well say that you're a net contributor to Hibs. A meaningless measure.

It's like saying you're paying a membership for the hibs club and getting nothing back for it. Dig deeper, and you find the benefits.

[grunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/31/brexit-lies-tory-billionaire-guy-hands-uk-eu-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Guy Hands, a leading City figure, has called Brexit a “complete disaster” and a “bunch of total lies” that has harmed large parts of the economy.

Speaking on the third anniversary of the UK’s departure from the EU, Hands, the founder, chair and chief investment officer of the private equity firm Terra Firma, said: “It’s been a complete disaster. The reality is it’s been a lose-lose situation for us and Europe. Europe has lost more [in financial services] but we’ve lost as well. And the reality of Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum) was, it was just was a bunch of complete and total lies.

[Just Alf]

As a remain voter who would vote to join, I was surprised given a) the democratic legitimacy point that the SNP raise around Brexit and b) that a significant number of yes voters voted leave. I guess they have done the maths, but even so. In addition, I would want to know the terms of any deal before I went in. Doesn't having a referendum on entry give some leverage on the terms that the EU would apply. If you say it's subject to a referendum they may be softer than if you give an unqualified commitment to join.If we were to get independence I'd want a referendum on fully rejoining.

I'd hope though, that the Government of the day would be looking at membership of the common market on some level and maybe even the common travel area regardless.

[Smartie]

Britain was a net contributor but it was a win / win relationship.

Our departure has been, and will continue to be, a lose / lose.

[JeMeSouviens]

Apart from the original 6 members, the only countries to join the EU without a referendum were Cyprus in 2004 and (ironically enough) the UK in 1973, although there was a confirmatory stay-in ref in 1975. So there's no actual requirement to have one afaics.

I think taking a Yes vote as sufficient to start the process/join the EEA and a further confirmatory ref before accession would be my preference, but I think it would be a formality and I wouldn't be at all bothered if we skipped that step.

[Jack]

While some folk are saying a significant number of SNP folk, along with the others parties, voted for Brexit in Scotland it could equally be said that a significant number of Brexit voters now see that vote as a mistake and would therefore probably be for joining the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

The more I think about this latest announcement, the less there is to it. Let's work this through. It is being said that a vote for independence would be a vote to join the EU. I think that doesn't stack up for a number of reasons:

- It's unlikely that any referendum question would cover both Scottish Independence and EU application. It would be really bad practice and I doubt UKG would allow.
- In the light of that it would only be an SNP commitment.
- Independence would be a process over a number of years. Scotland could have back channel discussions with EU, but couldn't apply until independent.
- The serious discussion of meeting the convergence criteria could only start once there was a clear understanding of the Scottish economic position post independence.
- The EU application process takes years - the EU's own documentation says that.
- All this assumes that the SNP is in power over this period as they would probably be the only ones to give that committment.
- This could mean that a vote on Scottish Independence is taken as legitimising joining the EU maybe up to 10 years later.
- And that's before we consider any democratic legitimacy issues at the core of it.

So I'm thinking this is about something different. Perhaps trying to create a story to break some of the noise that has been engulfing SG over the last wee while?

It’s possible the whole process takes a while although I doubt a decade given how aligned we already are with the EU. Lots of the benefits can be unlocked quicker than that though such as access to SM and CU. EFTA membership could be almost instant so long as we comply with their criteria.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Of course a vote for snp isn't a vote for joining the EU. Westminster elections can't be a referendum for another issue, its silly.

It's all a mute point though as Scotland voted to stay in the EU and brexit has been a disaster since then. I'm sure we'll have a referendum and it will be a landslide.

[Ozyhibby]

Of course a vote for snp isn't a vote for joining the EU. Westminster elections can't be a referendum for another issue, its silly.

It's all a mute point though as Scotland voted to stay in the EU and brexit has been a disaster since then. I'm sure we'll have a referendum and it will be a landslide.

My own preference is for there to be a referendum on the EU. It will be a landslide but it’s still the right way to go.
When indyref2 comes along, I also expect the campaign to be very heavy on rejoining the EU. I expect to see as many [emoji1099] as [emoji2528] on marches and rallies.
The evidence of how bad brexit really is is stacking up now and getting the No camp to defend it all the time is just smart politics.


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[archie]

Depends how you measure it. Far too many simplistic discussions around Brexit and the EU and this is just another. You might as well say that you're a net contributor to Hibs. A meaningless measure.Guys - we're actually on the same side with this one. There is nothing simplistic about the fact Britain was a net contributer. That's not to say there weren't other benefits, but why make stuff up?

[archie]

Britain was a net contributor but it was a win / win relationship.

Our departure has been, and will continue to be, a lose / lose.Agreed.

[Moulin Yarns]

Depends how you measure it. Far too many simplistic discussions around Brexit and the EU and this is just another. You might as well say that you're a net contributor to Hibs. A meaningless measure.

It was a case of giving apples and receiving pears, as far as I remember it 😉

[James310]

It was a case of giving apples and receiving pears, as far as I remember it 😉

You can't give it up can you. 😂 Let it go man, you will feel so much better. Move on, you got it wrong and that happens from time to time.

[archie]

My own preference is for there to be a referendum on the EU. It will be a landslide but it’s still the right way to go.
When indyref2 comes along, I also expect the campaign to be very heavy on rejoining the EU. I expect to see as many [emoji1099] as [emoji2528] on marches and rallies.
The evidence of how bad brexit really is is stacking up now and getting the No camp to defend it all the time is just smart politics.


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Would the terms of any deal be of interest to you?

[Ozyhibby]

Would the terms of any deal be of interest to you?

Not sure what you mean? The terms we join on would be the same as it is for every other member?


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[archie]

Not sure what you mean? The terms we join on would be the same as it is for every other member?


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Convergence criteria, euro, net contributor, that sort of thing.

[James310]

Not sure what you mean? The terms we join on would be the same as it is for every other member?


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Like Croatia? They had to partake in a program called "Excessive Deficit Procedure" that imposed massive austerity on Croatia. Like that kind of thing?

Would that not be a hard sell?

I think we have been down this road before though.

Isn't the next Independence paper about the EU, seems a long time since the last one.

[Ozyhibby]

Convergence criteria, euro, net contributor, that sort of thing.

None of those things worry me. Convergence criteria will be easier for Scotland than most given we have been part of the EU for a long time. I imagine the SG will want to fully converge our economy with the EU.
The Euro, we’ll need to commit to it the same as everyone else. When we eventually join it could be a long way away but I don’t think it’s a problem. There won’t be any more pressure on Scotland than there is on Sweden.
Net contributor is something that changes all the time anyway. Ireland didn’t used to be a net contributor but now it is. We are not as rich as Ireland so I doubt we will have to pay as much as the €300m they paid last year. It will be worth it whatever we pay.


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[Ozyhibby]

Like Croatia? They had to partake in a program called "Excessive Deficit Procedure" that imposed massive austerity on Croatia. Like that kind of thing?

Would that not be a hard sell?

I think staying out of the EU will be a harder sell.
Croatia seem pretty happy with the deal.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Westminster elections can't be a referendum for another issue, its silly.

UK "democracy" in Scotland summed up right there. We can't influence major change unless we send enough MPs to Westminster. We can't however send enough MPs to Westminster, ever.

[grunt]

Like Croatia?
The same Croatia that's a net beneficiary from being in the EU? That Croatia?

[Stairway 2 7]

UK "democracy" in Scotland summed up right there. We can't influence major change unless we send enough MPs to Westminster. We can't however send enough MPs to Westminster, ever.

Eh. What's that got to do with using a uk government election as an eu defacto referendum

[James310]

The same Croatia that's a net beneficiary from being in the EU? That Croatia?

Yes, that one. So a number of years of austerity and cuts to public services is worth it in tbe long run? I am just saying that needs to be considered, it's not all plain sailing and easy as some seem to want to make out.