Brexit - What Now.

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m going to say it as I want to be honest, I hope we leave without a deal. It will undoubtedly lead to Scottish independence and that’s what I think is the best option for Scotland right now. I voted to remain and even when leave won I never thought for a second we’d be in this position. It’s time to pull up the drawbridge and let England get on with whatever it wants to do. It’s time we looked after ourselves and put the question back to the Scottish people. It’s beyond my comprehension as to why anyone would look at the current situation and think we’d not be better by leaving it behind. I know I’m being selfish, but I want my daughter to grow up in a country that has the same prospects and rights that I had. I’m a middle aged man that has made his choices in life for good or bad, my daughter is a child that has all that ahead of her. I might be being a bit dramatic, but my daughter is my life and the thought of her growing up in a country that appears to be moving ever further to the right saddens me.

Be very careful what you wish for. I completely understand your sentiment but it is widely understood that no deal would be economically damaging for Ireland. That being true, there’s absolutely no way it can be anything other than horrendous here. We are totally geared for getting things to/from the EU via England and our economy is heavily interlinked with rUK.

If it happens then indy is our way out of the wreckage in the long term but don’t kid yourself, thousands of people will lose their jobs. It will be painful.

[lord bunberry]

Be very careful what you wish for. I completely understand your sentiment but it is widely understood that no deal would be economically damaging for Ireland. That being true, there’s absolutely no way it can be anything other than horrendous here. We are totally geared for getting things to/from the EU via England and our economy is heavily interlinked with rUK.

If it happens then indy is our way out of the wreckage in the long term but don’t kid yourself, thousands of people will lose their jobs. It will be painful.
I agree with you, but I think it’s inevitable. If it’s not at the end of October then it will happen after the tories win a general election. I don’t want to delay the inevitable and I think that no deal while remaining in the UK will be worse than no deal with us independent and part of the EU. You mentioned Ireland, I would hope that Scotland and Ireland would be able to work together to negate some of the problems.

[lord bunberry]

We also have to remember that an independent Scotland in the EU would be able to take up a lot of the business that the rUK would previously had. Obviously we’d firstly be in the EEA.

[Peevemor]

Judge's decision on interim interdict due any minute now.

https://twitter.com/BBCandrewpicken

[Moulin Yarns]

Judge's decision on interim interdict due any minute now.

https://twitter.com/BBCandrewpicken

LD says he's not satisfied there's 'cogent need' for interim interdict

[Moulin Yarns]

LD says full hearing should be brought forward to Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest next week.

[Moulin Yarns]

Aidan O'Neill now for the parliamentarians and arguing for hearing to take place on Monday.

[Moulin Yarns]

Roddy Dunlop for the UK Government now asking for hearing to take place on Wednesday due to pre existing commitments of the counsel.

[Peevemor]

Roddy Dunlop for the UK Government now asking for hearing to take place on Wednesday due to pre existing commitments of the counsel.

Maybe he can postpone the round of golf he has planned?

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe he can postpone the round of golf he has planned?

I think you could be right. Government delaying tactics.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lord Doherty rules the full hearing takes place on Tuesday given the substantive public interest.

[Peevemor]

Tuesday it is.

Ding ding...:take that

[Moulin Yarns]

Tuesday it is.

Ding ding...:take that

I'll second that.

[Peevemor]

Typical Beeb

"Judge refuses to halt parliament suspension plans"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49521132

They don't mention that the Interim Interdict wouldn't serve much purpose with there being a full hearing to follow. I'd say that's why the judge is saying there wasn't a "cogent need".

The headline could have read "Judge orders earlier hearing to be brought forward by 4 days".

[lapsedhibee]

Aidan O’Neill QC says they want a sworn affidavit from prime minister Boris Johnson saying - on oath - why he needs to prorogue parliament. If Johnson refuses to provide a sworn statement, O’Neill suggests he could be called to give evidence.

[Hibee87]

Typical Beeb

"Judge refuses to halt parliament suspension plans"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49521132

They don't mention that the Interim Interdict wouldn't serve much purpose with there being a full hearing to follow. I'd say that's why the judge is saying there wasn't a "cogent need".

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

[Peevemor]

Aidan O’Neill QC says they want a sworn affidavit from prime minister Boris Johnson saying - on oath - why he needs to prorogue parliament. If Johnson refuses to provide a sworn statement, O’Neill suggests he could be called to give evidence.


I'd pay to watch that.

[Peevemor]

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

I think it's more in reference to it being the Court of Session, ie. Scottish judge = Scottish court.

[lapsedhibee]

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

Possibly because there's another couple of similar legal challenges coming in other parts of the UK.

[lapsedhibee]

I'd pay to watch that.

Don't think Johnson would have the slightest qualm about wafflying on oath, on paper or in court.

[JeMeSouviens]

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

It's an explainer for metropolitan types - these Scots aren't total savages you know, they have courts'n'judges'n'stuff. Not proper ones like ours but still ...

[Peevemor]

Don't think Johnson would have the slightest qualm about wafflying on oath, on paper or in court.

Maybe not, but he'd have a job explaining why he needs 5 weeks to do what other governments have done in a maximum of 2, particularly with the slightly pressing business of Brexit to be sorted out.

[cabbageandribs1875]

imagine the seethe from brexiteers down south....damn scots :greengrin mon english independence :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe not, but he'd have a job explaining why he needs 5 weeks to do what other governments have done in a maximum of 2, particularly with the slightly pressing business of Brexit to be sorted out.

He'd just blithely say what he's being saying to the media, that it's all normal blabla. And if required to answer properly, would just repeat his non-answer. But agree it would be a fine thing if The Scottish Judge ended up branding him a glib and shameless waffler.

[CloudSquall]

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

It's the shock factor that "those jocks" have any power in this union.

[JeMeSouviens]

We also have to remember that an independent Scotland in the EU would be able to take up a lot of the business that the rUK would previously had. Obviously we’d firstly be in the EEA.

:agree:

We'd have a huge competitive advantage as (along with Ireland) the English speaking bridge to the European market.

[Moulin Yarns]

John major joining English legal action against proroguing parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree:

We'd have a huge competitive advantage as (along with Ireland) the English speaking bridge to the European market.

And one of those major advantages would be our legal system. All the EU work that currently goes through London would likely come here rather than Dublin.


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[CloudSquall]

We would want to move quickly though if we want London based companies to move to Edinburgh / rest of Scotland, the Netherlands are already in talks apparently with 50 companies regarding moves to Amsterdam.

[Killiehibbie]

We would want to move quickly though if we want London based companies to move to Edinburgh / rest of Scotland, the Netherlands are already in talks apparently with 50 companies regarding moves to Amsterdam.

Diageo must've been well ahead of the game, many of their brands 'moved' there years ago.

[JeMeSouviens]

John major joining English legal action against proroguing parliament.

Wowsers. Popcorn out.

[lapsedhibee]

John Major joining English legal action against proroguing parliament.
Traitor, communist, enemy of the people, etc

[heretoday]

Be very careful what you wish for. I completely understand your sentiment but it is widely understood that no deal would be economically damaging for Ireland. That being true, there’s absolutely no way it can be anything other than horrendous here. We are totally geared for getting things to/from the EU via England and our economy is heavily interlinked with rUK.

If it happens then indy is our way out of the wreckage in the long term but don’t kid yourself, thousands of people will lose their jobs. It will be painful.

Indy would pile more disruption on top of the current mess. Not a good idea. We'd never see the end of it and neither would our children.

[Callum_62]

Indy would pile more disruption on top of the current mess. Not a good idea. We'd never see the end of it and neither would our children.Don't believe that myself

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[JeMeSouviens]

Indy would pile more disruption on top of the current mess. Not a good idea. We'd never see the end of it and neither would our children.

I agree with the first sentence but it's a bit of a cut off the leg to save the patient moment*. The alternative is the whole body dies over a longer time.


* this analogy doesn't quite work as I believe in a few years time the patient would actually grow a new stronger leg. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree with the first sentence but it's a bit of a cut off the leg to save the patient moment*. The alternative is the whole body dies over a longer time.


* this analogy doesn't quite work as I believe in a few years time the patient would actually grow a new stronger leg. :greengrin

Lizard man?

[JeMeSouviens]

Lizard man?

Aaaaaargh, independent Scotland to be run by new reptilian species!

We've just given Better Together a new talking point. Dammit! :wink:

[Kato]

I’m going to say it as I want to be honest, I hope we leave without a deal. It will undoubtedly lead to Scottish independence and that’s what I think is the best option for Scotland right now.


Any form of Brexit is going see a huge upsurge in racist attacks, homophobic attacks and general harrassment of people who will be left high and dry. Those on the far right who struggle with their own adequacy are geared up across England to carry these attacks out the day the UK is out. That's before the UK Govt (junta) get their Dominic Cummings shaped teeth into the "settled status" problem.

Not very comfortable seeing that as anything other than horrific and the thought of Scotland abandoning those people to that fate is not one I care for.

[Colr]

I have a theory that Mark Francois with his French name and Italian mother is suffering from some kind of Stockholm syndrom after being teased at school.

[BroxburnHibee]

Boris will just lie on his affidavit. Hes got form for it let's face it.

The only way I can see no deal stopping is by revoking A50. Just not sure it will happen.

[stokesmessiah]

I have a theory that Mark Francois with his French name and Italian mother is suffering from some kind of Stockholm syndrom after being teased at school.

I ****ing hate that guy, he is a total ****ing clown and the total epitome of the flag waving, empire loving asshole that has caused this whole problem.

[G B Young]

I also dont get why the Judge being Scottish is relevant, unless I am missing something, it seems a strange way to put a sentence -
A Scottish judge has refused to order a temporary halt to Boris Johnson's plan to shut down the UK Parliament.

It's just making clear that the hearing took place in Scotland (at the Court of Session in Edinburgh) where we have a separate legal system to England.

[G B Young]

Typical Beeb

"Judge refuses to halt parliament suspension plans"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49521132

They don't mention that the Interim Interdict wouldn't serve much purpose with there being a full hearing to follow. I'd say that's why the judge is saying there wasn't a "cogent need".

The headline could have read "Judge orders earlier hearing to be brought forward by 4 days".

He's saying there was no need for the parliamentarians who brought this to court to seek an interim interdict. Essentially they were wasting court time with no logical requirement for such a move ahead of a full hearing.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Indy would pile more disruption on top of the current mess. Not a good idea. We'd never see the end of it and neither would our children.



aye right, i and my fellow countrymen/women will decide

[cabbageandribs1875]

(https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/BorisJohnson)https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sajid-javid-dominic-cummings-fires-special-adviser-johnson-brexit-sonia-khan-a9085056.html?fbclid=IwAR3v8-7p-SeMiD-EO5s5-67wIBB2McWYoLnws1yhFgvYLQo1LbODuKuzU54

Boris Johnson’s top strategist Dominic Cummings (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/dominic-cummings) is understood to have sacked Sajid Javid (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/sajid-javid)’s media adviser following a confrontation in Downing Street.
Sonia Khan, who was a special adviser to former chancellor Philip Hammond and continued in the role under Mr Javid, has now left her position at the Treasury (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/treasury), The Independent understands.
The prime minister’s right-hand man summoned Ms Khan to No 10 for a short meeting before she was escorted out of the building, according to reports.

the wrath of boris, philip hammond will be wondering when it's his turn

[JeMeSouviens]

He's saying there was no need for the parliamentarians who brought this to court to seek an interim interdict. Essentially they were wasting court time with no logical requirement for such a move ahead of a full hearing.

Don’t think that’s right. The judge brought the hearing forward. Only once he’d done that was there no longer a cogent need for interdict.

[Mibbes Aye]

(https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/BorisJohnson)https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sajid-javid-dominic-cummings-fires-special-adviser-johnson-brexit-sonia-khan-a9085056.html?fbclid=IwAR3v8-7p-SeMiD-EO5s5-67wIBB2McWYoLnws1yhFgvYLQo1LbODuKuzU54

Boris Johnson’s top strategist Dominic Cummings (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/dominic-cummings) is understood to have sacked Sajid Javid (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/sajid-javid)’s media adviser following a confrontation in Downing Street.
Sonia Khan, who was a special adviser to former chancellor Philip Hammond and continued in the role under Mr Javid, has now left her position at the Treasury (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/treasury), The Independent understands.
The prime minister’s right-hand man summoned Ms Khan to No 10 for a short meeting before she was escorted out of the building, according to reports.

the wrath of boris, philip hammond will be wondering when it's his turn

Philip Hammond resigned when Boris became PM.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Philip Hammond resigned when Boris became PM.


in light of this info i'd like to rewind my premonition to the 23rd july 2019

[lapsedhibee]

He's saying there was no need for the parliamentarians who brought this to court to seek an interim interdict. Essentially they were wasting court time with no logical requirement for such a move ahead of a full hearing.
He didn't remotely say or suggest that it had been wasting court time.

[Callum_62]

EU are apparently going to remove the 31st October hard deadline next week

Hows that for flexibility

[CloudSquall]

EU are apparently going to remove the 31st October hard deadline next week

Hows that for flexibility

They've buckled, the spirt of Dunkirk has prevailed.

#fightthemonthebeaches.

:greengrin

[Callum_62]

They've buckled, the spirt of Dunkirk has prevailed.

#fightthemonthebeaches.

:greengrinOut manovered our glorious PM and given palimentarians the time needed to avoid no deal - if true ofcourse

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[lapsedhibee]

Out manovered our glorious PM and given palimentarians the time needed to avoid no deal - if true of course


Denied by European sources.

Not much of an achievement, in any case, to outmanoeuvre an overpromoted rubber bath toy.

[Callum_62]

Denied by European sources.

Not much of an achievement, in any case, to outmanoeuvre an overpromoted rubber bath toy.[emoji23][emoji106]

Not saying its a glorious achievement but would throw a spanner in the works to the real reason the queen's speech was called

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[grunt]

He's saying there was no need for the parliamentarians who brought this to court to seek an interim interdict. Essentially they were wasting court time with no logical requirement for such a move ahead of a full hearing.
That's a very warped - and incorrect - view of events.

[G B Young]

That's a very warped - and incorrect - view of events.

I'm only basing that on the Radio Scotland reporter's summation I heard coming home last night. She said the judge had pointed out that with a full hearing scheduled for next week - and the fact nothing can actually happen with regards to prorogation before parliament returns - there was no cogent reason for an interim interdict, so essentially yesterday's proceedings were needless. When asked if there was a precedent for a situation such as this the QC for the parliamentarians had apparently cited the Claim of Right from 1869 (!?), prompting the judge to ask if there was a more recent precedent - the answer to that was no.

From the judge's actual ruling:

[7] The grant of interim interdict and interim suspension is a matter in relation to whichthe court possesses a broad discretion. Normally a party seeking such interim ordersrequires to show that there is a cogent need for the orders to be made.[8] I am not satisfied that it has been demonstrated that there is a cogent need forinterim suspension or interim interdict to be granted at this stage. At the moment, asubstantive hearing is set down to take place on Friday 6 September, before the first possibledate on which Parliament could be prorogued.

[Peevemor]

So where does it say anything about wasting court time? If nothing else it served to bring the full hearing forward from Friday to Tuesday.

[G B Young]

So where does it say anything about wasting court time? If nothing else it served to bring the full hearing forward from Friday to Tuesday.

Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

I think it was a safety net. In case the hearing was postponed. The government QC wanted it to be later.

Belt and braces approach.

[lapsedhibee]

Why go to the bother of seeking an interim interdict when there was already a full hearing scheduled? It seemed a foregone conclusion that such a move would be thrown out.

The full hearing was scheduled for Friday 6th. The judge judged that it was a matter of such public importance that it needed to be brought forward to Tuesday 3rd. Hardly a waste of time.

[Callum_62]

https://t.co/CyJSl9Tu3H?amp=1

We have lost a common sense in this country

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[Moulin Yarns]

We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49540681

[lapsedhibee]

We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.


The EU always caves at the last minute.
The EU needs us more than we need them, because we buy cars from Germany.
The EU is punishing us to show every other member state how difficult leaving, which they all want to do, can be.
The EU is the Fourth Reich.
Three pin plugs.
Prawn cocktail crisps.

Bananas.

[weecounty hibby]

We all know the stance on the Irish backstop, and we have heard how the EU are going to back down.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49540681

So there you have it, a no deal Brexit is down to the Europeans inflexibility!!

[CloudSquall]

Can't see anything other than a no deal exit happening at this point.

[wpj]

I’m going to say it as I want to be honest, I hope we leave without a deal. It will undoubtedly lead to Scottish independence and that’s what I think is the best option for Scotland right now. I voted to remain and even when leave won I never thought for a second we’d be in this position. It’s time to pull up the drawbridge and let England get on with whatever it wants to do. It’s time we looked after ourselves and put the question back to the Scottish people. It’s beyond my comprehension as to why anyone would look at the current situation and think we’d not be better by leaving it behind. I know I’m being selfish, but I want my daughter to grow up in a country that has the same prospects and rights that I had. I’m a middle aged man that has made his choices in life for good or bad, my daughter is a child that has all that ahead of her. I might be being a bit dramatic, but my daughter is my life and the thought of her growing up in a country that appears to be moving ever further to the right saddens me.

I live in England, I have a daughter who has just turned four. I am so sad we have ended up where we are. I have friends and colleagues who know nothing about their future. I am about to watch Gove on Andrew Marr but may have to disconnect because I know he will be a nippy wee James Hunt

[Callum_62]

Can't see anything other than a no deal exit happening at this point.It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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[CloudSquall]

It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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I've been reading people get frustrated now at Sturgeon and the SNP, wanting them to stop trying to save England from itself and concentrate on independence and saving Scotland from the inevitable ****storm to come, I can't argue with that anymore.

[Ozyhibby]

It's now no deal or revoke - there is no longer any middle ground

No deal by far the most likely I reckon

Regardless England is lurching much further right than ever before, which frankly none of the above will do anything to help resolve

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100% agree. Everyone is now playing winner takes all. There is no compromise to be had anymore.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I've been reading people get frustrated now at Sturgeon and the SNP, wanting them to stop trying to save England from itself and concentrate on independence and saving Scotland from the inevitable ****storm to come, I can't argue with that anymore.

That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

[Ozyhibby]

That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

People just can’t seem to accept sometimes politicians just try to do the right thing.


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[Callum_62]

I'm now convinced no deal is the correct option for us
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190901/7d093f8adc55a50353328db49bf5e31e.jpg

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[Colr]

I'm now convinced no deal is the correct option for us
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190901/7d093f8adc55a50353328db49bf5e31e.jpg

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Look up the supersizers go wartime to see what the food you need is like!!

[Fife-Hibee]

That can't be right. People say that she wants a no deal, so why has she been trying to save England?

I'm getting confused.

The whole point is to make it look like she is. Nicola Sturgeon isn't daft. She knew no deal was inevitable from the very beginning and that nothing she could try would risk stopping it from happening.

So no deal happens. Nicola Sturgeon can say she's "tried everything" and "Scotland has been ignored at every turn". The Lib Dem vote in Scotland collapses.

It's perfect.

[G B Young]

The whole point is to make it look like she is. Nicola Sturgeon isn't daft. She knew no deal was inevitable from the very beginning and that nothing she could try would risk stopping it from happening.

So no deal happens. Nicola Sturgeon can say she's "tried everything" and "Scotland has been ignored at every turn". The Lib Dem vote in Scotland collapses.

It's perfect.

That's the sum of it, although I'm not sure she saw no deal as inevitable right from the beginning. She thought Brexit per se would be the catalyst for a fresh independence drive, but called that wrong and had to 'reset' her plans.

[G B Young]

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/29/churchill-moment-boris-have-takes/): he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-no-deal/) would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theresa-may/), or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/03/dominic-cummings-tells-mps-missed-chance-stop-no-deal-brexit/).

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/boris-johnson-taking-big-gamble-asking-queen-prorogue-parliament/). They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/labour-party/) in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/11/shelving-backstop-will-not-enough-must-also-avoid-fatal-trap/). Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.

[weecounty hibby]

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

[Moulin Yarns]

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

You know what? I was selling at a craft fair today, my best customer was a German family who accounted for more than 50%of my turnover for the day. I said don't mention Brexit, the husband replied, deadpan, so long as you don't mention the war, then winked and laughed. Who said Germans had no sense of humour? 😉

[Callum_62]

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/29/churchill-moment-boris-have-takes/): he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-no-deal/) would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theresa-may/), or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/03/dominic-cummings-tells-mps-missed-chance-stop-no-deal-brexit/).

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/boris-johnson-taking-big-gamble-asking-queen-prorogue-parliament/). They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/labour-party/) in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/11/shelving-backstop-will-not-enough-must-also-avoid-fatal-trap/). Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.

Summary? PR piece surely.

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[G B Young]

You didn't say where that fawning piece is attributed to. Waxing lyrical about the Falklands war that could have been avoided, saving British and Argentine lives, telling us that actually Johnson is a political genius saving us from ourselves, comparing him to a wartime Churchill, telling us that actually we are at war, that enemies are all around us, shouting for massive tax cuts( presumably more so for the richest in society) even if the deficit increases. Looks like a very right wing source to me and probably not very balanced

Cut and pasted it from the Press Data site which rounds up the up the pick of the articles from last week's papers etc. It'll be from the Spectator most likely or perhaps the Telegraph or Mail, so yes a very subjective piece. I'm not putting it out there as anything else. I just thought it provided a good insight into the mindset of the PM's camp.

[lapsedhibee]

A decent summation of the PM's strategy:

When Winston Churchill was asked whether Downing Street personnel could have a week’s holiday for Christmas, he declined immediately. It was 1940 and Churchill, “surprised” by the request, explained that he planned to work “continuously”. Staff were only allowed time off to attend Divine Service, and Churchill wished them “a busy Christmas and a frantic New Year”.

He only took eight days’ holiday between the start and end of the war, and even then had cables delivered on at least some of those days, as Andrew Roberts recounts in his wonderful biography. Assistants would go home at 6am, before being back on duty by 10am; Cabinet meetings were routinely held well after midnight. There was a war, and it had to be won.

It is no secret that Boris Johnson admires Churchill (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/29/churchill-moment-boris-have-takes/): he, too, wrote a paean to the great man, and (perhaps too obviously) would love, in time, to be seen as his 21st-century incarnation, a thought that used to amuse his opponents but now infuriates them.

It would, of course, be preposterous even to begin to equate our present political and constitutional crisis with the Second World War, humanity’s darkest hour. But the No 10 operation’s Stakhanovite work rate, its extreme centralisation of power, its obsession with military history, psychology and thinking, its determination to force the lumbering British state to move more nimbly, all confirm that it is acting as if we, too, were in the midst of a real, existential conflict.

Those who thought that Johnson’s administration (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-no-deal/) would be amateurish, lackadaisical or downright lazy still cannot quite believe how badly they misjudged him. This Government is modelled on a wartime operation, fortunately minus the actual war. The Remainer ultras, used to the defeatism of the May regime (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theresa-may/), or even the too-clever-by-half, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach of the Cameron years, have been wrong-footed. They are too angry to think calmly, and are falling into the ever-more complex traps laid for them by Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s chief adviser (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/03/dominic-cummings-tells-mps-missed-chance-stop-no-deal-brexit/).

It is impossible to understand the past 24 hours without realising that No 10 genuinely believes that this is a historic “do or die” moment, and not just because of Brexit. It is convinced that it has to work harder, faster and more intelligently than its opponents, leveraging the power of the executive and pushing constitutional conventions to their limits to defeat the enemy. Like the most ruthless of generals, it is prepared to incur losses along the way, and to sacrifice anything or anybody non-essential, in pursuit of the ultimate prize. It is ready to take as many massive risks as necessary, as military leaders must always do in war time.

Hence yesterday’s latest, explosive chess move: it fell well short of proroguing Parliament in the full sense of that term, and was therefore constitutionally proper. But, by reducing the time available to Remainers to overthrow the Government or halt Brexit, it has wreaked havoc with their planning, and driven them into another wild rage.

The reality is that the Boris/Cummings agenda is extraordinarily ambitious, and amounts to the greatest political gamble in recent history (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/28/boris-johnson-taking-big-gamble-asking-queen-prorogue-parliament/). They want to push through a real Brexit, preferably with a massively better deal than May’s; win a majority in Parliament for a Tory party reshaped along Johnsonite lines; destroy Jeremy Corbyn and force the Labour Party back on to the political centre-ground; eliminate the need for the Brexit Party; and recast the country with historic reforms to education, taxation, planning, immigration and economic policy.

For Johnson to pull all of this off would require him not just to win the looming general election but probably to stay in power for a decade, allowing him to emerge as the third great Tory leader of the past 100 years. Whether they like it or not, he is the centre-Right’s last and only chance. He either gets his way, or the Tories will break up and the most socialist Labour Party (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/labour-party/) in our history will seize power, backed by all the Left-wing parties, including the SNP. Under such a nightmare scenario, Brexit would be made to fail disastrously, discrediting the idea entirely, or it would be cancelled.

The next few weeks – and especially next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday – will thus be the most important period for the future of the UK at least since the Falklands War. Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. The challenge today is just as great, but the present Prime Minister’s position is objectively far weaker than the Iron Lady’s ever was.

Johnson doesn’t really have a parliamentary majority, and some of his dissidents are fanatics who are willing to let in Corbyn. The May/Hammond strategy has precipitated the destruction of the constitution, with a broken Parliament now ensuring the country is ungovernable. The PM needs to keep enough Remainers on side not to lose a no‑confidence vote, and that requires negotiation with the EU.

But doing so means focusing on the backstop for now, which risks alienating Brexiteers (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/11/shelving-backstop-will-not-enough-must-also-avoid-fatal-trap/). Boris and Sajid Javid need to work closely on a Budget with massive tax cuts at its heart; the Treasury establishment will try its best to oppose this. Javid must stand firm and prepare the greatest Tory, supply-side Budget in 30 years, even if the deficit increases.

The obstacles are too many to list. If Boris does lose a vote of confidence, will he really be able to delay the election to November? And if Parliament seizes control, will he be able to bypass MPs by dissolving Parliament with Corbyn’s help? Is there any chance of passing any kind of new deal now? Is there any hope that Johnson could win a pre-Brexit election, given that Nigel Farage won’t stand down his troops?

Yet if the past month has taught us anything it is that politics is not like physics: there is no immutable law of gravity. Brilliant political leadership can overcome almost everything – or at least, as he rereads his biography of Churchill, that is what Johnson will be telling himself. Let us hope he is right.



:sick:

[CloudSquall]

"Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. "


Tremendous writing, I was making jokes previously about the spirit of Churchill, I didn't realise it's actually the Iron Lady's spirit we are basing our Brexit strategy on :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

"Had Lady Thatcher lost, pro-Soviet socialism would have triumphed in Britain. Her victory allowed a capitalist revolution and helped bring about the triumph of the free world. "


Tremendous writing, I was making jokes previously about the spirit of Churchill, I didn't realise it's actually the Iron Lady's spirit we are basing our Brexit strategy on :greengrin

It's rather worrying that so many people out there read and believe this tripe.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190901/007571cc8f20a10d192ad97a3ac31dc0.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wpj]

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

[Future17]

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

[lapsedhibee]

The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

Yet.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Government can't ban MPs for standing for re-election.

In theory they can by deselection. The party deselects a sitting mp is banning by any other definition.

[Jack Hackett]

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

Smacks of Cummings pulling Johnson's strings

[ballengeich]

Banning MPs from standing if they oppose no deal Brexit. This is now "becoming" a totalitarian government. Serious times ahead

Both main Westminster parties now have leaders with a history of not toeing the party line prior to being in charge wanting to de-select colleagues who show any sign of independent thought processes.

[Future17]

In theory they can by deselection. The party deselects a sitting mp is banning by any other definition.

That doesn't stop them from standing; it just stops them from a standing as the party's nominated candidate.

[Bristolhibby]

That doesn't stop them from standing; it just stops them from a standing as the party's nominated candidate.

This split the Tory vote.

Tory
v
Deselected Tory
v
BREXIT

J

[Future17]

This split the Tory vote.

Tory
v
Deselected Tory
v
BREXIT

J

Yeah, which is one of the reasons it would be a massive gamble for the Tories to proceed in the way that has been rumoured. I think it would cost them seats - maybe not many, but it's not as if they can afford to lose any.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, which is one of the reasons it would be a massive gamble for the Tories to proceed in the way that has been rumoured. I think it would cost them seats - maybe not many, but it's not as if they can afford to lose any.

The remain vote is even more split and people fear Corbyn as much as brexit. I think if Johnson gets a GE then he wins it. Brexit Party May only stand candidates against remain mp’s. And how many of the deselected mo’s will bother to stand as independents?
If we go to a GE the Johnson and no deal brexit will triumph.


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[lapsedhibee]

If we go to a GE the Johnson and no deal brexit will triumph.

:agree: Yet Corbyn is all for a GE. He will lose, there will be a No Deal Brexit and his hope of destroying capitalism will be advanced in some small way - is that the long game he is playing so brilliantly? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

Parliament getting stroppy - get rid of Parliament
Conservative MPs questioning strategy - get rid of them
Inconvenient laws being passed by legislature - ignore them
People protesting in the streets, waving placards, holding up traffic, etc - ?

Was Johnson thinking well ahead when he bought the water cannon for London?

[Just Jimmy]

A GE will be a disaster for those who don't want no deal or want another referendum. there's no way Corbyn wins an election. if fact he'll get trounced.

however it may be the best thing for the Labour party in that surely if they can canned he can't continue and they'll have to put someone with a backbone in charge. cooper would be the obvious shout.

it's a bloody mess all over the place.

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[Ozyhibby]

A GE will be a disaster for those who don't want no deal or want another referendum. there's no way Corbyn wins an election. if fact he'll get trounced.

however it may be the best thing for the Labour party in that surely if they can canned he can't continue and they'll have to put someone with a backbone in charge. cooper would be the obvious shout.

it's a bloody mess all over the place.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Agree. GE means a no deal brexit is a certainty.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

22473


keep em coming

[Ozyhibby]

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


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[Callum_62]

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkA Farage Bojo coalition

Marvellous

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[JeMeSouviens]

Brexit Party about to announce a non aggression pact with the Tories.


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The pressure will be on Lab+Lib+Green+SNP to do likewise but I think they might well blow it. We shall see.

[Callum_62]

22473


keep em comingThat's 11 seats lost for the tories that they must pick up elsewhere

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[lapsedhibee]

Cabinet ministers to be told draft legal text on Northern Ireland plan has been drawn up and ready to be introduced

BUT

A source says draft legal text is just the existing protocol with the relevant articles on the backstop crossed out - not exactly a worked up plan

:faf: :fibber:

[BroxburnHibee]

Statement at 6. Final throw of the dice before announcing a GE?

[JeMeSouviens]

The Rebel bill has been published. It would make Johnson have to ask for a 3 month extension to end Jan 2020 if he hasn't got a deal by end Oct.

[Callum_62]

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over


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[Callum_62]

Saying he doesn't want an election

Basically saying, pleading with MPs to vote with Govt tomorrow

Pointless really

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[lapsedhibee]

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over


Confirming that he'll ignore any inconvenient law passed this week.

[Mr Grieves]

Bojo promising money for everyone

Magic money tree does exist again it appears

Its great that throughout this speech you can hear clearly STOP THE COUP chanting over and over


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https://twitter.com/StuartWilksHeeg/status/1168572322544066561?s=19

[Bristolhibby]

Are we all buttoned up the back?

Did we forget the decade of austerity?

Where has all this money come from?

J

[cabbageandribs1875]

22476

[Jack Hackett]

22476

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lord-advocate-to-intervene-in-brexit-legal-cases-1-4995689


The twists and turns in this saga are now compulsive viewing/reading. Best Soap Ever!

[Mibbes Aye]

The pressure will be on Lab+Lib+Green+SNP to do likewise but I think they might well blow it. We shall see.

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

[Ozyhibby]

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

Cooper as Labour leader would deliver a 100 seat majority.


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[Glory Lurker]

Does the Labour constitution allow anyone other than party leader to be PM?

[Pretty Boy]

If there was an election tomorrow (or IN October) I'd struggle to know who to vote for. I voted Labour last time out in the general election but given their utterly hopeless non position in Brexit I don't think I could do so again. I think I'd go with my gut and give my vote back to the SNP.

[Ozyhibby]

In Scotland, the SNP is the most remain way to vote.


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[Moulin Yarns]

If Boris Johnson tried to get a vote for a general election through parliament after parliament vote for the 3 month extension, would it not make sense to vote it down. Thus forcing the extension. I know that he would try to refuse to implement the extension but the EU would then know what they are dealing with.

[Ozyhibby]

If Boris Johnson tried to get a vote for a general election through parliament after parliament vote for the 3 month extension, would it not make sense to vote it down. Thus forcing the extension. I know that he would try to refuse to implement the extension but the EU would then know what they are dealing with.

Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

[bawheid]

Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

Not up to Corbyn. Two thirds needed for a GE. If enough Labour MPs spot the obvious trap then there won’t be one.

[Moulin Yarns]

Absolutely it would make sense. Labour would be mad to take the bait and allow Johnson to dictate the timing of an election at a time they are behind in the polls. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as being that smart though.

It's not up to labour though, thank goodness, it's a 2/3rd majority and even some tories have the balls to vote against. Hopefully enough will.

[JeMeSouviens]

I am actually more confident about a left coalition than I was a day or two ago but I am no expert and there will be much complexity and nuance to sort anything out.

It needs Corbyn to step aside and let someone like Cooper or the like, come forward. She isn’t anethema to the Momentum entryists, she shouldn’t be anathema to the unions, she shouldn’t be anethama to any Labour Party member unless they are a complete dick who is living in the past.

If Jeremy isn’t willing to do the right thing then god help us. There is a potential for coalition and it could be Yvette Cooper or Jo Swinson, and my god, it would be a million times better than Johnson or Corbyn.

The anti-No deal cooperation has been v encouraging but actually standing aside in constituencies to give each other a free run is another matter.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Telegraph’s Europe guy, Peter Foster (who despite his employer has done a stellar job of reporting Brexit has a big thread on twitter tonight.

He has whitehall sources confirming that the govt has no intention of trying to negotiate. They’re just running down the clock and will try and use the October EU summit to get mini deals to mitigate no deal (an idea aka “managed no deal” and repeatedly ruled out by the EU).

[G B Young]

In Scotland, the SNP is the most remain way to vote.


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A general election just now would likely see the SNP return to 2015 levels of seats, essentially ensuring the key battleground would be south of the border where, assuming Farage would stand down his troops (except perhaps in leave-voting Labour areas) the Tories would be confident of a pretty commanding victory.

As somebody else has said, the hapless Corbyn would need to make way for a new leader for them to have any sort of chance.

[Mibbes Aye]

The anti-No deal cooperation has been v encouraging but actually standing aside in constituencies to give each other a free run is another matter.

Yep, true. Won’t happen with Milne etc. Could happen with Umunna etc.

I do realise Umunna isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I do realise he is the potential broker to bring Lab and Lib together

[Fife-Hibee]

I do realise Umunna isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.

Labour would lose their core Labour support in place of soft tories. Labour would cease to exist as a political ideology.

[Since90+2]

Rumours that Labour now won't support a GE at this time until a no deal brexit has been taken off the table via legislation. If that happens and Boris doesn't get his 2/3rds majority needed for a GE then he could be the shortest PM in history

Boris (or more likely the "unelected beaurocrat" Dominic Cummings) might have miscalculated this massively.

[RyeSloan]

Labour would lose their core Labour support in place of soft tories. Labour would cease to exist as a political ideology.

Who knows really as Labour are in such a flip flopping mess but in this scenario who are you envisaging them losing their core vote to?




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[Ozyhibby]

Despite sensible noises from some shadow cabinet members I think Labour will walk into Johnson’s trap and agree a GE. Corbyn is one of life’s fools.


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[Pretty Boy]

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

[Callum_62]

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with one. 'He' s running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.Yes - if its made clear the reason why as Johnson could just change the date until after 31st Oct

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[CloudSquall]

Robert Peston on Twitter said that Downing Street has "war gamed" and thinks there is a way around a rejection of a General Election on Wednesday in order to make it happen, whatever that means.

From what I've read also Corbyn wants to go for an election but Labour MPs as a whole want to avoid it.

[Ozyhibby]

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

He has to if he want to stop no deal.


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[Ozyhibby]

Soames is now voting against no deal. Big call for the Tories to deselect Churchill’s grandson.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Has Corbyn not repeatedly called for a general election throughout the Brexit process? Can he afford to flip flop and whip against voting for one now?

The Tory spin doctors would have a field day with that one. 'He's running scared', 'someone this indecisive can't be PM' and so on.

I think the spin is pretty straightforward to counter and in fact they already seem to have worked it out:



Sam Coates Sky
@SamCoatesSky


Labour set conditions before backing a general election

Shami Chakrabarti to Sky:

- Only when legislation is "locked down" can we support a GE.
- “Dealing with people "who don't respect the normal rules of the game"
- “Nothing I want more than a GE"

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest no 10 plan for an election is apparently a new bill before parliament saying "notwithstanding the fixed term parliament act, we'll have an election on blah".

However, although that avoids the need for 2/3 voting for it, if they can't get the numbers to stop the Rebels tonight, it's not clear where the extra votes to get even a simple majority for that come from?

If the Tory rebs, Labour and the rest of the oppo hold their nerve, Johnson is in Theresa levels of deep ****.

[JeMeSouviens]

Number of Tory rebs reckoned to be about 20. Should be enough but tonight is yet another cliffhanger. :worried:

Tonight the vote will be about MPs taking control of parliamentary time then in the next couple of days they will try to get legislation through that will force Johnson to ask for an extension if he hasn't got a deal by Oct 19 and then parliament will decide on any terms offered by the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

Number of Tory rebs reckoned to be about 20. Should be enough but tonight is yet another cliffhanger. :worried:

Tonight the vote will be about MPs taking control of parliamentary time then in the next couple of days they will try to get legislation through that will force Johnson to ask for an extension if he hasn't got a deal by Oct 19 and then parliament will decide on any terms offered by the EU.

It’s possible they may have over played their hand with the deselection threats. These are people after all and they will have friends within the party. Threatening to sack people is not a great way to win over the party.


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[Ozyhibby]

Latest no 10 plan for an election is apparently a new bill before parliament saying "notwithstanding the fixed term parliament act, we'll have an election on blah".

However, although that avoids the need for 2/3 voting for it, if they can't get the numbers to stop the Rebels tonight, it's not clear where the extra votes to get even a simple majority for that come from?

If the Tory rebs, Labour and the rest of the oppo hold their nerve, Johnson is in Theresa levels of deep ****.

Any new bill would be amendable though so a no-deal block could be added on.


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[The Harp Awakes]

It’s possible they may have over played their hand with the deselection threats. These are people after all and they will have friends within the party. Threatening to sack people is not a great way to win over the party.


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I think suspending parliament and denying it was to frustrate opposition to a no-deal, the deselection threats and the hint that the Government may ignore new legislation has been a watershed for many on both sides of the divide.

I watched the debate on Channel 5 last night about trust in politicians and it was quite revealing. Basically they asked a series of questions on the public's opinion of MPs and the outcome was that the mistrust of MPs is in the gutter, and at an all time low.

Against that backdrop, in the first session David Davies (ex Brexit Minister) was on the panel when the host posed a question to ~100 in the audience (selected 50/50 Brexiteers & Remainers). The question was; put your hand up if you think Boris Johnson was telling the truth when he said that the suspension of parliament was not an attempt at frustrating opposition to a no deal Brexit? - not one person put their hand up. The host then asked David Davies if he thought Boris was lying, and he gave some meandering answer which no-one understood but basically said no he wasn't lying. The derision from the audience was obvious.

[JeMeSouviens]

Any new bill would be amendable though so a no-deal block could be added on.


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Yes, good point.

[BroxburnHibee]

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

[JeMeSouviens]

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

I think the even latester theory is a special one off bill to name the date. The problem for Johnson with a VONC he calls himself is that there is a 14 day period where anyone else can try and form a government.

[Colr]

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

Interesting. Peston was saying that they had a mechanism to go to an election with just a simple majority but he didn’t know what that was. Surely a vote of no confidence loss would just mean someone else would have to have a go at forming a government - Corbyn in the first instance.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tory MPs loyal to Johnson have been briefed that in all media engagements they should refer to the Benn extension bill as "Corbyn's Surrender Bill".

[bigwheel]

Tory MPs loyal to Johnson have been briefed that in all media engagements they should refer to the Benn extension bill as "Corbyn's Surrender Bill".

Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...

[Ozyhibby]

Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...

This is so fast moving that there won’t be time to repeat it that often. There will be other bills along before it has time to bed in.


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[Colr]

Actually quite effective that - putting politics to one side - Tony Blair’s government were brilliantly consistent with language..remembering “education, education, education” ?? Repetitive language creates impact across large populations of people ....you know what they stand for ...

The opposition need to do similar ...


And deliver it too. I did 28 schools in 3 years under the Blair government before I moved to urban regen and delivering 1000s of new homes.

I did more under Blair than any other time in my career. The last 9 years have been so frustrating in contrast.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tory MP Philip Lee crosses the floor to sit with the Lib Dems. That's the Tory/DUP majority gone.

He did it while Johnson was speaking. Top trolling!

[JeMeSouviens]

Former ministers Justine Greening and Alastair Burt have both announced they won't stand for re-election.

[Ozyhibby]

Tory MP Philip Lee crosses the floor to sit with the Lib Dems. That's the Tory/DUP majority gone.

He did it while Johnson was speaking. Top trolling!

A WWE style defection.[emoji23]


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[Bristolhibby]

Re. the 2/3 majority needed for a GE.

Latest theory doing the rounds is Boris himself could call a no confidence vote where a simple majority is needed. I'm assuming the tory vote would just whip behind that?

Sorry, come again, call a no confidence vote in himself?

Also, Tories lost their majority Phillip Lee (who?) jumps ship to the Lib Dems.

J

[Ozyhibby]

With these defections, do we need an election? Opposition parties should just form a coalition now. Chuck in a few £million and the DUP would likely join it.


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[CloudSquall]

Conservative MPs have started to deselect themselves, what an absolute car crash this is..

[Sylar]

Listening to BoJo speaking to the Commons. Does he think this is all some big ****ing joke? Laughing, making jokes about the Ashes, and wagging his finger in ways that Adolf would be proud.

Someone needs to remove this man promptly, and in the most efficient manner possible. Preferrably to never return to politics again!

[JeMeSouviens]

Listening to BoJo speaking to the Commons. Does he think this is all some big ****ing joke? Laughing, making jokes about the Ashes, and wagging his finger in ways that Adolf would be proud.

Someone needs to remove this man promptly, and in the most efficient manner possible. Preferrably to never return to politics again!

Etonians are brought through school with the expectation that they are destined for the cabinet table via Oxbridge. Chumps like Johnson treat the whole thing as a massive extension of the sixth form common room. And why shouldn't they? It's other people's lives they're ****ing with. :rolleyes:

[Sylar]

Etonians are brought through school with the expectation that they are destined for the cabinet table via Oxbridge. Chumps like Johnson treat the whole thing as a massive extension of the sixth form common room. And why shouldn't they? It's other people's lives they're ****ing with. :rolleyes:

Sneering about the currency and Independent Scotland would use "the Salmond or the Sturgeon". Jesus ****ing wept.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sneering about the currency and Independent Scotland would use "the Salmond or the Sturgeon". Jesus ****ing wept.

Any Unionist could have told him the correct sneer for this situation is "groat". Amateur. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

It appears the chair of the Lib Dems LGBT group @LGBTLD has quit the party after Phillip Lee joins the party.

[Moulin Yarns]

Labour's Angela Eagle: Will the PM "abide by the rule of law", if a bill passes making it illegal to leave the EU without a deal?

Boris Johnson: "We will of course uphold the constitution and obey the law"

Latest: https://t.co/bsA0DJ2HMB https://t.co/wwB92BppCg

[The Harp Awakes]

Sneering about the currency and Independent Scotland would use "the Salmond or the Sturgeon". Jesus ****ing wept.

:blah:

What a roaster. It would all be a jolly good laugh if it wasn't for the fact he's PM.

[GORDONSMITH7]

Unlike most on here I watched the whole G7 report back from Boris the Bufoon.
No matter the clips for the News outlets, Corbyn hammered him big time, followed by Ian Blackford of the SNP, getting the boot in too. Splendid. Boris is truely atrocious. Watching a Tory MP actually crossing to the opposition benches live was remarkable.

BIG G

[G B Young]

Tory MP Philip Lee crosses the floor to sit with the Lib Dems. That's the Tory/DUP majority gone.

He did it while Johnson was speaking. Top trolling!

He doesn't seem entirely welcome:

Lib Dems' LGBT chair resigns over Lee defection
Jennie Rigg, chair of the Lib Dems LGBT group, says on Twitter that she has sent an email to the membership resigning after the party accepted Phillip Lee as an MP.
Among her concerns is his support in 2014 for banning HIV-positive immigrants from Britain.
In a blogpost, Ms Rigg accused him of being a "homophobe, a xenophobe, and someone who thinks people should be barred from the country if they are ill".

[bigwheel]

And deliver it too. I did 28 schools in 3 years under the Blair government before I moved to urban regen and delivering 1000s of new homes.

I did more under Blair than any other time in my career. The last 9 years have been so frustrating in contrast.

They were indeed great, for the first 5 years , of focus and implementation...lost their way with the gulf war ....

[bigwheel]

This is so fast moving that there won’t be time to repeat it that often. There will be other bills along before it has time to bed in.


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Yeah. It was more the principle than the bill example ..simple repetitive language makes a high impact - talking about different things confuses the message ....

[GlesgaeHibby]

Not sure who's performance was worse today - Bojo or Jackson Carlaw. Carlaw's jibe at Sturgeon was classless. Hope he gets the job.

[Glory Lurker]

The arithmetic and possible outcomes at Westminster are now less fathomable than the UEFA Nations League.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190903/97c2c62b985fd5a758b62e12ce734a7e.jpg

Why Corbyn must not fall into trap of giving Johnson an election.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190903/97c2c62b985fd5a758b62e12ce734a7e.jpg

Why Corbyn must not fall into trap of giving Johnson an election.


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And that applies to the SNP as well, who are likely to gain. They need to stop brexit first.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190903/97c2c62b985fd5a758b62e12ce734a7e.jpg

Why Corbyn must not fall into trap of giving Johnson an election.


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And that applies to the SNP as well, who are likely to gain. They need to stop brexit first.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190903/97c2c62b985fd5a758b62e12ce734a7e.jpg

Why Corbyn must not fall into trap of giving Johnson an election.


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Of course the other factor is the constituency arithmetic. The Brexit party vote share will never translate into a comparable number of seats. The Lib Dems also won’t win as many seats as their vote share would suggest they deserve.

In Scotland the SNP will take 80+% of the seats while being a fair bit short on f that on the popular vote.

It is what it is and I don’t have a particular issue with it. We blew the chance of a more equitable system with the AV referendum result.

[Colr]

Of course the other factor is the constituency arithmetic. The Brexit party vote share will never translate into a comparable number of seats. The Lib Dems also won’t win as many seats as their vote share would suggest they deserve.

In Scotland the SNP will take 80+% of the seats while being a fair bit short on f that on the popular vote.

It is what it is and I don’t have a particular issue with it. We blew the chance of a more equitable system with the AV referendum result.

AV or PR look a hell of a lot more attractive following the current ****show So much for the strong government provided by FPTP

[Bristolhibby]

AV or PR look a hell of a lot more attractive following the current ****show So much for the strong government provided by FPTP

I’m looking forward to the “Coalition of Chaos” if anything just for a bit of stability.

J

[GlesgaeHibby]

Conservative Chief Whip calling in confirmed rebels ahead of the vote to withdraw the vote.

Mogg was essentially begging for a vote of no confidence earlier. Hopefully the opposition benches let this shower suffer through their own mess.

[Hiber-nation]

Rees Mogg's actually lying almost flat on his back on the front bench.

Bizarre human being.

[Ozyhibby]

PR would likely half the number of SNP mp’s and would also make MP’s much more compliant to the central party machine.
They would no longer represent an area, just the party.
Not for me.


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[Just Jimmy]

Rees Mogg's actually lying almost flat on his back on the front bench.

Bizarre human being.imagine if you were in work and lay on your back in a meeting and rolled your eyes everytime one of you colleagues spoke or disagreed with your position.

he's simply an arrogant, petulant and rude prick.

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[Hiber-nation]

imagine if you were in work and lay on your back in a meeting and rolled your eyes everytime one of you colleagues spoke or disagreed with your position.

he's simply an arrogant, petulant and rude prick.

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Indeed. Caroline Lucas has just called him out for it and said it is a contemptuous approach.

[bawheid]

imagine if you were in work and lay on your back in a meeting and rolled your eyes everytime one of you colleagues spoke or disagreed with your position.

he's simply an arrogant, petulant and rude prick.

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It’s been easy for these clowns to crow from the back benches. Not so easy trying to actually govern.

Nadine Dorries sits on the front bench. WTF has happened to this country.

[JeMeSouviens]

Division!!!!!!

[Hibrandenburg]

The language used by dissenting Tories is unlike anything I've ever heard from the tories when talking about Johnson. The contempt is palpable.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1168980398166237185?s=09

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[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1168980398166237185?s=09

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What a ****

[Callum_62]

328 to 301 rebels win

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[Sylar]

Suck on it, you absolute shower of ****s! :aok:

[GlesgaeHibby]

Boris face...hahahahaha you ain't getting the election you want until the bill passes

[Ozyhibby]

Corbyn says no election until no deal off the table.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Blackford speech cut out again. Happened earlier too. An hours debate covered live but the SNP were given voice over.

[Callum_62]

Motion tabled to call an election

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[Ozyhibby]

21 Tory rebels. Their majority will be deep into negative territory now.


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[lord bunberry]

Blackford speech cut out again. Happened earlier too. An hours debate covered live but the SNP were given voice over.
It was shown in full on the bbc news channel.

[Callum_62]

Guto bebb expects more tory mps to leave the party

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[GlesgaeHibby]

Motion tabled to call an election

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He isn't getting it until no deal is off the table. Boris and his cabal have played this so badly.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Bozo and his Brextremists must be made to face the electorate. He's been caught lying yet again. Get these nutters out of office via a general election; Corbyn must call a vote of no confidence, pre-empting Johnson's contrived election.

[lord bunberry]

He isn't getting it until no deal is off the table. Boris and his cabal have played this so badly.
If he gets a majority in the election can’t he just run down the clock and get no deal after the next delay?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ha, ha. Did anyone see the Sarah Smith piece outside holyrood o on the BBC news?

[SHODAN]

Every Scottish Tory voted with Boris.

It's okay, they'll be gone soon.

[lapsedhibee]

Boris and his cabal have played this so badly.
That can't be right. Dominic Cummings is a genius. :confused:
It must be that they've played it well but have been knobbled by collaborators, traitors, quislings and that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If he gets a majority in the election can’t he just run down the clock and get no deal after the next delay?
Yes, but that's a huge if. Brexit voters were told it would be the easiest deal in history etc; how many of them will hold firm now?

Scotland will boot out its dozen Tory MPs for a start.

[lord bunberry]

Yes, but that's a huge if. Brexit voters were told it would be the easiest deal in history etc; how many of them will hold firm now?

Scotland will boot out its dozen Tory MPs for a start.
I think the Tories will return a large majority in an election. The brexit party won’t stand against them, but they will stand against labour in leave areas.

[Callum_62]

Every Scottish Tory voted with Boris.

It's okay, they'll be gone soon.Absolute disgrace. How anyone in Scotland votes for them thinking they have our interests at heart is beyond me.

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[stokesmessiah]

I actually think that tonight has just made no deal more certain. Deal between BoJo and his clowns and Farage on the cards.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think the Tories will return a large majority in an election. The brexit party won’t stand against them, but they will stand against labour in leave areas.

It could be a factor, but I think people are waking up to the Brexit nonsense and realise no deal is madness.

[lord bunberry]

It could be a factor, but I think people are waking up to the Brexit nonsense and realise no deal is madness.
I’m not sure I share your optimism on that. There was a show on channel 5 last night and plenty people in the audience still backed brexit no matter what. I read a quote earlier that brexit was closely linked to English nationalism and there might be some truth in that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tory MPs who voted against the government to be stripped of Tory whip - 21 of them, including two former Chancellors, in what is already a minority government. Bozo in total panic.

[Iain G]

It could be a factor, but I think people are waking up to the Brexit nonsense and realise no deal is madness.

Leaving the EU is madness in itself, leaving without a deal is just insanity!

[lord bunberry]

Tory MPs who voted against the government to be stripped of Tory whip - 21 of them, including two former Chancellors, in what is already a minority government. Bozo in total panic.
I wonder if May was one of the rebels.

[Ozyhibby]

If he gets a majority in the election can’t he just run down the clock and get no deal after the next delay?

Yes. Choice in an election will be a no deal brexit v Corbyn govt. What a terrible choice.


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[Iain G]

Yes. Choice in an election will be a no deal brexit v Corbyn govt. What a terrible choice.


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It's like having two bags of sweeties...and both of them contain a big fat jobby!

[cabbageandribs1875]

22482

[bringbackbenny]

I wonder if May was one of the rebels.

Nope, spineless as always.

[Ryan91]

Yes, but that's a huge if. Brexit voters were told it would be the easiest deal in history etc; how many of them will hold firm now?

Scotland will boot out its dozen Tory MPs for a start.

Farage and his Brexit Party will be interesting to watch, they'll face far greater scrutiny at a GE than they did at the Euro Elections.

Wonder if they choose to stand in all seats or maybe they stand aside in pro-Leave Tory seats and go after pro-Leave Labour seats?

Hope that fanny stands and fails to get elected AGAIN

[Callum_62]

Anyone with any sense must see the only compromise is a soft brexit

No deal is just madness

Revoking causing more division

In saying that I just think its all a massive mess which is probably going to cause the biggest shake up in politics in my generation

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[lord bunberry]

Farage and his Brexit Party will be interesting to watch, they'll face far greater scrutiny at a GE than they did at the Euro Elections.

Wonder if they choose to stand in all seats or maybe they stand aside in pro-Leave Tory seats and go after pro-Leave Labour seats?

Hope that fanny stands and fails to get elected AGAIN
They’ve agreed a non aggression pact with the tories.

[Smartie]

I actually think that tonight has just made no deal more certain. Deal between BoJo and his clowns and Farage on the cards.

I don't think there is a majority in favour of Brexit any more.

The problem is, it is far easier to see Farage and BoJo striking a deal and standing together whereas it is much harder to see the Remainers standing together - not unreasonable either, as Corbyn is a divisive figure for many.

I can only see BoJo winning with a substantial majority and having a strong mandate to do whatever he wants - that will be a no deal, hard Brexit and all manner of insufferable nonsense after that.

[Ozyhibby]

Can Corbyn win?

He would need to come out for a 2nd ref, he would need non aggression pact with the Lib Dem’s, Plaid and SNP and then he would need a coalition with them and even then it would be close.


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[1875godsgift]

It could be a factor, but I think people are waking up to the Brexit nonsense and realise no deal is madness.

:agree: I think there was some complacency among Remainers, in that they didn't expect to lose.

Much like David Cameron :wink:

[Colr]

Can Corbyn win?

He would need to come out for a 2nd ref, he would need non aggression pact with the Lib Dem’s, Plaid and SNP and then he would need a coalition with them and even then it would be close.


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Would McLuskey and Milne let him? Would anyone believe him if he did. He’s leave and always has been.

[lord bunberry]

Anyone with any sense must see the only compromise is a soft brexit

No deal is just madness

Revoking causing more division

In saying that I just think its all a massive mess which is probably going to cause the biggest shake up in politics in my generation

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I agree but it’s not going to happen imo. No deal will happen, it’s just a matter of when. The only thing that will stop it is the tories not getting a majority in a general election.

[Ryan91]

Anyone with any sense must see the only compromise is a soft brexit

No deal is just madness

Revoking causing more division

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There won't be a middle ground unfortunately.

Remaining with our current deal or No deal are the choices.

Either way, any ills that befall the UK in either scenario will be blamed on the EU

[Ozyhibby]

The 21 Tory rebels standing as independents could also be a problem for the Tories. Would split Tory vote in those areas.


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[Callum_62]

Dunno like - Labour came fairly close last snap GE after forecasting a huge majority for the tories

If Scotland vote as expected SNP will gain 11 or so seats from the tories

Definately would need a pact with SNP plaid etc (hello indy ref 2)

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[Ozyhibby]

There won't be a middle ground unfortunately.

Remaining with our current deal or No deal are the choices.

Either way, any ills that befall the UK in either scenario will be blamed on the EU

Yip. Middle ground has now gone. It’s winner takes all.


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[Callum_62]

Yip. Middle ground has now gone. It’s winner takes all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"all" isn't that much in a no deal brexit [emoji23]

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Yes. Choice in an election will be a no deal brexit v Corbyn govt. What a terrible choice.


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Nonsense. A Corbyn government is infinitely preferable, IMO. Our society has been destroyed since 2010; there is no dilemma here. We need an alternative to the neoliberal race to the bottom. End moneyism and let's test whether humanism can provide a better path, as the Attlee government did in 1945. It can't do any worse but may do so much better.

[lord bunberry]

Dunno like - Labour came fairly close last snap GE after forecasting a huge majority for the tories

If Scotland vote as expected SNP will gain 11 or so seats from the tories

Definately would need a pact with SNP plaid etc (hello indy ref 2)

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I hope you’re right, but labours credibility has taken a bit of a battering since then.

[Ozyhibby]

Nonsense. A Corbyn government is infinitely preferable, IMO. Our society has been destroyed since 2010; there is no dilemma here. We need an alternative to the neoliberal race to the bottom. End moneyism and let's test whether humanism can provide a better path, as the Attlee government did in 1945. It can't do any worse but may do so much better.

With 21 less Tory mp’s then we could have a new govt by tomorrow if mp’s wanted it.


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[Colr]

With 21 less Tory mp’s then we could have a new govt by tomorrow if mp’s wanted it.


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Led by whom?

[Ryan91]

Led by whom?

Not Corbyn, popular alternatives seem to be Ken Clarke or Yvette Cooper, Jo Swinson probably thinks she's in with a shot, but she'll find herself being ignored by everyone else.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I see that the self serving scrote David no deal would be a disaster for Scotland Mundell voted against.

Every Scottish Tory.

[Hibernia&Alba]

With 21 less Tory mp’s then we could have a new govt by tomorrow if mp’s wanted it.


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There has to be a general election first.

[Callum_62]

All 21 rebels have been informed they are out apparently

Ledsom seemed to suggest there was a way back for them in tomorrow's vote

This includes Winston Churchills grandson

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[lord bunberry]

I see that the self serving scrote David no deal would be a disaster for Scotland Mundell voted against.
That spineless loser would never do anything that might threaten his career, a complete disgrace of a man.

[stoneyburn hibs]

That spineless loser would never do anything that might threaten his career, a complete disgrace of a man.

I just edited my post mate.

It was every Scottish Tory.

[Future17]

Not sure who's performance was worse today - Bojo or Jackson Carlaw. Carlaw's jibe at Sturgeon was classless. Hope he gets the job.

It was crass and stupid, but her comment wasn't particularly endearing either.

[lord bunberry]

I just edited my post mate.

It was every Scottish Tory.
My reply applies to all of them :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

It was shown in full on the bbc news channel.

Damn, I was watching sky because I was pissed off with the BBC doing it permanently. What did I miss.

[Callum_62]

21 rebels now confirmed whip has been removed

Well that's gotta guarentee them voting for the bill tomorrow

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[stoneyburn hibs]

21 rebels now confirmed whip has been removed

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Wow, totally mental.

[Hibrandenburg]

Bozo and his Brextremists must be made to face the electorate. He's been caught lying yet again. Get these nutters out of office via a general election; Corbyn must call a vote of no confidence, pre-empting Johnson's contrived election.

Careful what you wish for. In my particular echo chamber, the remoaners are now considered to be traitors and Boris is the messiah.

[Hibrandenburg]

That can't be right. Dominic Cummings is a genius. :confused:
It must be that they've played it well but have been knobbled by collaborators, traitors, quislings and that.

That's going to be the underlying rhetoric. I'm sure the word Corbynites will also be thrown around and the Boris fan club will lap it up.

[JeMeSouviens]

They’ve agreed a non aggression pact with the tories.

They’ve proposed one, but only if Johnson commits to no deal.

Doubt the Tories will bite, they’re trying to triangulate Farage out. Also doubt Farage means it, his only real priority is Farage.

[lord bunberry]

Damn, I was watching sky because I was pissed off with the BBC doing it permanently. What did I miss.
Not much it was pretty short. He said he could have his general election as soon as no deal was taken off the table.

[JeMeSouviens]

Can Corbyn win?

He would need to come out for a 2nd ref, he would need non aggression pact with the Lib Dem’s, Plaid and SNP and then he would need a coalition with them and even then it would be close.


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Under FPTP he has a chance. In the heat of a GE a good bit of the Green and Lib vote will melt away.

Another hung parliament wouldn’t surprise me tbh.

[lord bunberry]

They’ve proposed one, but only if Johnson commits to no deal.

Doubt the Tories will bite, they’re trying to triangulate Farage out. Also doubt Farage means it, his only real priority is Farage.
Possibly, but if he really wants brexit a deal with the tories is his best chance.

[Hibrandenburg]

I read a quote earlier that brexit was closely linked to English nationalism and there might be some truth in that.

It's worse than you think, apparently we're still at war with Germany and this is just Hitler's long game playing out. I don't know what's in the water south of the Tweed, but it's potent stuff.

[JeMeSouviens]

Possibly, but if he really wants brexit a deal with the tories is his best chance.

He’d much rather be still in the game with a fresh betrayal narrative, imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not much it was pretty short. He said he could have his general election as soon as no deal was taken off the table.

Thanks.

[cabbageandribs1875]

IDS feeling peckish

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1168963660548644867?s=04&fbclid=IwAR1cWOVzHKxl2r_uhDgy5J02Iv-6TtxYU0rP2L52OaNCngS1CJgqIX-A4d0



the dirty runt :sick: