Brexit - What Now.

[JeMeSouviens]

Pre-emptive parliamentary blow struck against BoJo - makes proroguing much harder. 315 to 274.

Opposition to no deal seems to be firming a bit, making the inevitable election come a bit closer I think. I think Johnson's calculation will be that if he goes into a GE proclaiming that the EU are *******s and he wants to go ahead with No Deal that will triangulate out Farage, and the Remain vote will split fairly evenly between the shambolic Labs and resurgent (a bit) Libs.

[Hibrandenburg]

I knew there was something fishy about this rant.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-kipper-rant-eu-rules-uk-commission-speech-a9010436.html%3famp

[Fife-Hibee]

Apparently the EU are the reason we don't eat fish and chips out of newspaper wrappers anymore. :faf:

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-fish-chips-newspaper-leave-eu-james-obrien-lbc-radio-9010961

[Hibrandenburg]

Apparently the EU are the reason we don't eat fish and chips out of newspaper wrappers anymore. :faf:

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-fish-chips-newspaper-leave-eu-james-obrien-lbc-radio-9010961

This is a perfect if somewhat extreme example of why we are where we are.

[Moulin Yarns]

Should I change my car before October? 5 year old but mechanically sound, bodywork is a bit worse for wear. I'm guessing it's going to cost more after Brexit. Any idea?

[Hibrandenburg]

Should I change my car before October? 5 year old but mechanically sound, bodywork is a bit worse for wear. I'm guessing it's going to cost more after Brexit. Any idea?

Buy a British car and you should be alright. You can have any make you like providing it's a Morgan. Waiting list might be quite long mind you.

[Jack Hackett]

An Irish respondent to a question on Quora posted this

22299

Sums it up nicely

[Moulin Yarns]

Buy a British car and you should be alright. You can have any make you like providing it's a Morgan. Waiting list might be quite long mind you.

Do they do electric or hybrid models? :wink: I'd rather have a TVR but I need space for my display materials for craft fairs, so SUV it is:boo hoo:

[jonty]

Should I change my car before October? 5 year old but mechanically sound, bodywork is a bit worse for wear. I'm guessing it's going to cost more after Brexit. Any idea?

there was talk of them increasing by up between 5 and 10%
I decided to change mine earlier this year.

[Moulin Yarns]

there was talk of them increasing by up between 5 and 10%
I decided to change mine earlier this year.

Cheers J, I found this little tool that predicts average price rise by manufacturer.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/car-prices-after-brexit#

(https://www.carwow.co.uk/car-prices-after-brexit#)
Buy European and you could be £4k more. Think I might start looking to buy in September or October.

[jonty]

Cheers J, I found this little tool that predicts average price rise by manufacturer.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/car-prices-after-brexit#

(https://www.carwow.co.uk/car-prices-after-brexit#)
Buy European and you could be £4k more. Think I might start looking to buy in September or October.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?337832-Brexit-is-looming-Has-anything-changed-for-you-yet&p=5717828&viewfull=1#post5717828
:greengrin
Judging by carwows expectations, my audi would jump 8k. I don't think i was expecting that much of a jump.
It was carwow i used to get a deal - I'd definitely use them again.

[James310]

Philip Hammond just announced on Marr he will resign on Wednesday if Boris Johnson is named new PM.

[Ozyhibby]

Philip Hammond just announced on Marr he will resign on Wednesday if Boris Johnson is named new PM.

It’s clear there won’t be the number to get a no deal brexit through Parliament so it will be interesting to see what Johnson does. I don’t think they are ready for GE straight away but who knows.


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[RyeSloan]

Philip Hammond just announced on Marr he will resign on Wednesday if Boris Johnson is named new PM.

Always better to jump before you are pushed I suppose!

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

A general election is the only credible way to progress this dead lock IMO. Gordon Brown was a a lame duck PM for not seeking the approval of the electorate . If Boris is standing on the narrative of delivering for the electorate then there is no better way than to go and getting that secured in parliamentary numbers. It may very well be the narrowest of manifesto debates . but forcing a polar question maybe the only way left. FWIW I have always thought that Boris is first and foremost a shameless opportunist and I would concede that this is a Churchillian comparison that holds water. He would be intrigued at the prospect of being the last PM of The united Kingdom , rather than perturbed.

[Fife-Hibee]

A general election is the only credible way to progress this dead lock IMO. Gordon Brown was a a lame duck PM for not seeking the approval of the electorate . If Boris is standing on the narrative of delivering for the electorate then there is no better way than to go and getting that secured in parliamentary numbers. It may very well be the narrowest of manifesto debates . but forcing a polar question maybe the only way left. FWIW I have always thought that Boris is first and foremost a shameless opportunist and I would concede that this is a Churchillian comparison that holds water. He would be intrigued at the prospect of being the last PM of The united Kingdom , rather than perturbed.

What if parliament is hung and there still isn't a majority between remain, soft and no deal?

[Ozyhibby]

A general election is the only credible way to progress this dead lock IMO. Gordon Brown was a a lame duck PM for not seeking the approval of the electorate . If Boris is standing on the narrative of delivering for the electorate then there is no better way than to go and getting that secured in parliamentary numbers. It may very well be the narrowest of manifesto debates . but forcing a polar question maybe the only way left. FWIW I have always thought that Boris is first and foremost a shameless opportunist and I would concede that this is a Churchillian comparison that holds water. He would be intrigued at the prospect of being the last PM of The united Kingdom , rather than perturbed.

Johnson’s only plan is to be PM. What happens after that isn’t important to him right now.


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

What if parliament is hung and there still isn't a majority between remain, soft and no deal?

Remain, soft and no aren't outcomes of a polar question.

[Moulin Yarns]

Remain, soft and no aren't outcomes of a polar question.

I might be wrong but I think he might be talking about the MPs. Some remainders, some no dealers and the want a dealers.

[Ozyhibby]

What if parliament is hung and there still isn't a majority between remain, soft and no deal?

The status quo must prevail.


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[Fife-Hibee]

The status quo must prevail.


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I hope not. The status quo's a bit **** to be honest.

[Colr]

I hope not. The status quo's a bit **** to be honest.

Caroline's OK.

[jonty]

Caroline's OK.

Leave my wife out of it.

(she has her moments)

[Hibrandenburg]

Caroline's OK.

Down down with pun posts.

[Mibbes Aye]

Down down with pun posts.

I disagree, but hey, whatever you want!

[cabbageandribs1875]

swinson new lib-dems leader

[Smartie]

swinson new lib-dems leader

Was that the b-side on Marguerita Time?

[heretoday]

swinson new lib-dems leader

Go get 'em Jo!

[JeMeSouviens]

Michel Barnier:


We look forward to working constructively w/ PM
@BorisJohnson
when he takes office, to facilitate the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement and achieve an orderly #Brexit. We are ready also to rework the agreed Declaration on a new partnership in line with #EUCO guidelines.

In other words, you're no getting a new deal. Reworked political declaration along the lines of offers already made by the EU is all he can get.

[RyeSloan]

Will be very interesting watching to see how Boris deals with the EU.

It was always odd having a remainer as the PM doing the dealing.

It’s rather late in the day of course but later is always better to watch the fireworks!

[lapsedhibee]

Will be very interesting watching to see how Boris deals with the EU.

Really don't think it will. It'll be
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
Until eventually
By not doing what we wanted, the Germans are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

[Colr]

Really don't think it will. It'll be
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
The Germans will cave because they want to sell us cars
Until eventually
By not doing what we wanted, the Germans are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Will we be able to buy cars if we’re all losing our jobs?

[Hibrandenburg]

Will we be able to buy cars if we’re all losing our jobs?

Cars will only complicate the hunting and foraging in post Brexit Britain.

[Fife-Hibee]

Will we be able to buy cars if we’re all losing our jobs?

We'll all be in jobs. It's just the value in the wages we'll be losing.

[Fife-Hibee]

I still stand by what i've said previously. "No deal" was the plan all along.

[JeMeSouviens]

Irish-American caucus in the US congress getting organised ...


Brexiteers have argued Britain will be in a position to strike a trade deal with the United States when it leaves the European Union. But any trade agreement must be endorsed by Congress. Ms Pelosi said during a visit to London in April that there would be “no chance whatsoever” of a US-UK trade deal if the Northern Ireland peace agreement was weakened by Brexit.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-pelosi-warns-uk-not-to-jeopardise-belfast-agreement-1.3967768

[Hibrandenburg]

Irish-American caucus in the US congress getting organised ...



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-pelosi-warns-uk-not-to-jeopardise-belfast-agreement-1.3967768

Ach, she's just bluffing/project fear. (Delete as necessary)

[Colr]

Boris Johnson really is uniting the country.

Ireland, that is!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190727/e79f33a013fa8cfa4249b6d362fe047d.jpg


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[Stonewall]

I still stand by what i've said previously. "No deal" was the plan all along.

I suspect you are right.

The only thing that makes me doubt it is that Johnson’s capacity for self delusion appears to be second only to his ability delude a substantial proportion of the electorate. There is a small possibility he actually believes what he says.

[Fife-Hibee]

I suspect you are right.

The only thing that makes me doubt it is that Johnson’s capacity for self delusion appears to be second only to his ability delude a substantial proportion of the electorate. There is a small possibility he actually believes what he says.

Same was said about Trump. Many thought he'd become more "statesman like" after he was made president. Here we are years later and he's still and intolerable gob***** and is putting much of it into policy.

[Stonewall]

Same was said about Trump. Many thought he'd become more "statesman like" after he was made president. Here we are years later and he's still and intolerable gob***** and is putting much of it into policy.

i wonder if his calculation may be that by coming out aggressively towards the EU, they will not extend the deadline further and the little matter of getting a no deal past Parliament is then irrelevant.

He can then blame the EU and walk away, refusing to pay the 39 billion divorce bill and hold an election which he thinks he can win and neatly deal with Farage at the same time.

[Fife-Hibee]

i wonder if his calculation may be that by coming out aggressively towards the EU, they will not extend the deadline further and the little matter of getting a no deal past Parliament is then irrelevant.

He can then blame the EU and walk away, refusing to pay the 39 billion divorce bill and hold an election which he thinks he can win and neatly deal with Farage at the same time.

The 39 billion is NOT a "divorce bill". It's finanical obligations that the UK has already legally committed themselves to, deal or no deal. Not to pay it, would be to default on those legal obligations. Not exactly the message the UK would want to be sending out to the "world wide markets" that it thinks it's going to be trading with in a hard brexit scenario.

Bojo might think he can win. But for what prize? By the time this is all over, nobody (not even Boris) will want anything to do with the leadership.

[Stonewall]

The 39 billion is NOT a "divorce bill". It's finanical obligations that the UK has already legally committed themselves to, deal or no deal. Not to pay it, would be to default on those legal obligations. Not exactly the message the UK would want to be sending out to the "world wide markets" that it thinks it's going to be trading with in a hard brexit scenario.

Bojo might think he can win. But for what prize? By the time this is all over, nobody (not even Boris) will want anything to do with the leadership.

Even if we leave with no deal we’ll have to go back to the EU looking for a new trading arrangement and they won’t talk till we’ve paid it. Whatever you want to call it.

Not exactly a strong negotiating position is it.

The Americans will also screw us over despite all the pish in the press today.

[SHODAN]

Davidson says she won't support No Deal. Wonder if her MPs won't either.

[weecounty hibby]

Davidson says she won't support No Deal. Wonder if her MPs won't either.
Of course they will. They have their jobs to think about. Davidson doesn't have to agree with anything Johnson says as he isn't her boss

[Ozyhibby]

I was speaking with my cousin today who works in Dublin as an accountant advising companies how to get Brexit ready and she was telling me that UK preparation is miles behind Ireland’s.
She said that, and I may have misunderstood this, that because all VAT in the EU is linked then companies in the uk buying products from EU companies can claim back the VAT. After brexit, that won’t be able to happen and all our products will become 20% more expensive for them and theirs will be 20% more expensive for us. That is massively going to restrict trade if I have understood it properly.


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[RyeSloan]

I was speaking with my cousin today who works in Dublin as an accountant advising companies how to get Brexit ready and she was telling me that UK preparation is miles behind Ireland’s.
She said that, and I may have misunderstood this, that because all VAT in the EU is linked then companies in the uk buying products from EU companies can claim back the VAT. After brexit, that won’t be able to happen and all our products will become 20% more expensive for them and theirs will be 20% more expensive for us. That is massively going to restrict trade if I have understood it properly.


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I’m pretty sure HMRC has covered this off by stating VAT due on imports will be subject to postponed accounting which would have the same effect as the current reverse charge process.

Effectively both allow the reclaim of the VAT as an input tax and the postponed accounting method removes the cash flow issue that would occur if it was needed to be paid up front and then reclaimed.

Defo not my area of expertise though and the above is a rather hazy (and maybe inaccurate!) recollection of a very exciting article I read on this issue a wee while back.

And yes clearly I need to upgrade my reading material to something rather less dry and ever so slightly more interesting [emoji23][emoji23][emoji12]

[Ozyhibby]

I’m pretty sure HMRC has covered this off by stating VAT due on imports will be subject to postponed accounting which would have the same effect as the current reverse charge process.

Effectively both allow the reclaim of the VAT as an input tax and the postponed accounting method removes the cash flow issue that would occur if it was needed to be paid up front and then reclaimed.

Defo not my area of expertise though and the above is a rather hazy (and maybe inaccurate!) recollection of a very exciting article I read on this issue a wee while back.

And yes clearly I need to upgrade my reading material to something rather less dry and ever so slightly more interesting [emoji23][emoji23][emoji12]

If the VAT is being claimed as an input tax will that result in lower receipt to the treasury? I’m well out my depth on tax issues but I’m not sure how HMRC could refund companies who have to pay vat in France say?


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[Hibernia&Alba]

No deal Brexit is coming; Bozo has started softening the country up for it. Export tariffs and no trade agreements in place at all, thus we will be the only country in the world trading solely by WTO terms. Then there's the hard border in Northern Ireland and the crisis it will create. Time is running out (Brexit by Halloween 'do or die') and we are looking into the abyss now.

[RyeSloan]

If the VAT is being claimed as an input tax will that result in lower receipt to the treasury? I’m well out my depth on tax issues but I’m not sure how HMRC could refund companies who have to pay vat in France say?


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Ach well beyond anything I know much detail about to be honest! I just remembered the above from something I had read.

I think the general gist was that from a VAT perspective the net effect would stay the same as current and as such there was no threat of 20% hikes.

But honestly beyond that I don’t really know so not gonna pretend other wise [emoji2957]

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m surprised no one has posted or picked up on this yet. Members of Congress in the USA have stated publicly that they would look to sanction the UK in any post-Brexit trade deal with the US if it harmed the Good Friday agreement, which scrapping the backstop would.

While Congress is generally a two party affair, senators and congressmen and women from both parties and the independents caucus around many issues and the Friends of Ireland caucus has around ten per cent of all Congress members attached to it, which is a big and powerful lobby.

Perhaps more importantly, the chair of the Ways and Means Committee, which has a massive influence on setting and agreeing economic policy is one of the caucus leaders and is adamant that there should be no threat to Good Friday.

Yet another interesting twist to these curious times.

[Just Alf]

Sky news have apparently got hold of part of a UK Government discussion presentation from a reliable source.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190801/ed1e757794558ed1714c42112dbb3fe3.jpg

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[Callum_62]

Sky news have apparently got hold of part of a UK Government discussion presentation from a reliable source.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190801/ed1e757794558ed1714c42112dbb3fe3.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935F using TapatalkAye but 350million per week.

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[CloudSquall]

I can only imagine the unionist reaction if the Scottish Government had a document suggesting a 25% drop in the value of a Scottish currency.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m surprised no one has posted or picked up on this yet. Members of Congress in the USA have stated publicly that they would look to sanction the UK in any post-Brexit trade deal with the US if it harmed the Good Friday agreement, which scrapping the backstop would.

While Congress is generally a two party affair, senators and congressmen and women from both parties and the independents caucus around many issues and the Friends of Ireland caucus has around ten per cent of all Congress members attached to it, which is a big and powerful lobby.

Perhaps more importantly, the chair of the Ways and Means Committee, which has a massive influence on setting and agreeing economic policy is one of the caucus leaders and is adamant that there should be no threat to Good Friday.

Yet another interesting twist to these curious times.

It was discussed on here a few days ago (can’t remember what thread) that Nancy Pelosi had said there could be no trade deal with the UK while the Good Friday agreement was under threat. Basically that border has to stay open or no trade deal is getting through Congress.


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[lapsedhibee]

It was discussed on here a few days ago (can’t remember what thread) that Nancy Pelosi had said there could be no trade deal with the UK while the Good Friday agreement was under threat. Basically that border has to stay open or no trade deal is getting through Congress.


Foreign power interfering in the UK's determination to enact the will of its people. Shirley Cummings's spokesdummies will be spouting about the "antidemocratic US Congress" any minute now?

[Callum_62]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

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[Callum_62]

I can only imagine the unionist reaction if the Scottish Government had a document suggesting a 25% drop in the value of a Scottish currency.Pounds been over valued anyway. Apparently

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[JeMeSouviens]

I’m surprised no one has posted or picked up on this yet. Members of Congress in the USA have stated publicly that they would look to sanction the UK in any post-Brexit trade deal with the US if it harmed the Good Friday agreement, which scrapping the backstop would.

While Congress is generally a two party affair, senators and congressmen and women from both parties and the independents caucus around many issues and the Friends of Ireland caucus has around ten per cent of all Congress members attached to it, which is a big and powerful lobby.

Perhaps more importantly, the chair of the Ways and Means Committee, which has a massive influence on setting and agreeing economic policy is one of the caucus leaders and is adamant that there should be no threat to Good Friday.

Yet another interesting twist to these curious times.

Ahem - previous page - https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=5858764&viewfull=1#post5858764

[Mibbes Aye]

It was discussed on here a few days ago (can’t remember what thread) that Nancy Pelosi had said there could be no trade deal with the UK while the Good Friday agreement was under threat. Basically that border has to stay open or no trade deal is getting through Congress.


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Ahem - previous page - https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=5858764&viewfull=1#post5858764

Yeah yeah yeah :greengrin

You are both right, but I was really referring to a report in the Guardian a few days ago that highlighted the chair of Ways and Means (and a caucus member), making it clear his opposition, not Pelosi.

The committee system in Congress is elaborate, labyrinthine and ultimately a real barrier if it wants to be, to anything really happening. I recently read Robert Caro’s magnificent biography of Lyndon Johnson and Caro spends a vast amount of time describing how the committee system works in Congress, or rather how it is dysfunctional and essentially a tool of power for those who ascend to the chairs.

It has not changed much since then. Ways and Means controls tax and tariffs, which means it influences everything, especially trade deals. Pelosi speaking out was a strong sentiment. Richard Neal speaking out is also so, and perhaps stronger.

[StevieC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636

You have to laugh at the Brexit Party .. put up a candidate that takes 3,000 votes off a pro-Brexit Tory to allow a remain candidate to win by just over 1,000 votes !!

[Ozyhibby]

You have to laugh at the Brexit Party .. put up a candidate that takes 3,000 votes off a pro-Brexit Tory to allow a remain candidate to win by just over 1,000 votes !!

Farage won’t care. Only a no deal Brexit is enough for him now. Anything else he can spin as a betrayal and will be enough to keep him relevant in uk politics going forward.
No matter what happens, this issue will be in uk politics for a long time.
We can avoid it by voting for independence.


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[Jack]

Farage won’t care. Only a no deal Brexit is enough for him now. Anything else he can spin as a betrayal and will be enough to keep him relevant in uk politics going forward.
No matter what happens, this issue will be in uk politics for a long time.
We can avoid it by voting for independence.


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It will be like an asteroid just missing Scotland that will turn rUk into a wasteland.

[JeMeSouviens]

Brexit Party MEP Jim McCawber's twitter account:


Jim,

You are an ignorant fool with no respect for the electorate who, for some reason, placed their faith in you.

The last two months as your secretary have been hell. Shove your job up your arse.

- Linda

P.s good luck in changing your password back, you cretinous technophobe

Nice one Linda. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/JMcCawberMEP/status/1157679811705430017


Edit: boo, it's a parody account.

[Fife-Hibee]

Just a wee reminder.

No-Deal Brexit = Hard Brexit

They simply altered the terminology when it became clear that's what the UK Government were planning all along.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just a wee reminder.

No-Deal Brexit = Hard Brexit

They simply altered the terminology when it became clear that's what the UK Government were planning all along.

What is the legal status of the vote in January?

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mps-much-more-open-to-supporting-pms-brexit-deal-11601782

[Callum_62]

What is the legal status of the vote in January?

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mps-much-more-open-to-supporting-pms-brexit-deal-11601782Parliament can't legally stop no deal I think.

The default legal position come 31st October is to leave with no deal. A hard Brexit

Quite how that would be democratic I'd need to ask Farage

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[Colr]

Parliament can't legally stop no deal I think.

The default legal position come 31st October is to leave with no deal. A hard Brexit

Quite how that would be democratic I'd need to ask Farage

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Luckily Giles and Sue have already road tested the food shortages for us:

https://youtu.be/gOE0VP0EZ0M

[lord bunberry]

I’m almost certain now that we will leave without a deal. The government are doing as much as they can to piss off the EU while MPs are on holiday. It will only take one country in the EU to say enough is enough you either take the deal on offer or leave with no deal, no more extensions. Parliament can do whatever they want and vote on whatever they want, but if the EU don’t give another extension then there’s no chance of a deal.

[Callum_62]

It does seem more than likley we are heading for no deal

The politicians in the UK are really comically inept

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[Ozyhibby]

It does seem more than likley we are heading for no deal

The politicians in the UK are really comically inept

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That’s the whole plan. They want everyone to think it’s now inevitable.
It’s still possible for parliament to stop it though, it’s whether the Labour Party will do what it has to do.


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[Just Jimmy]

It does seem more than likley we are heading for no deal

The politicians in the UK are really comically inept

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalkthe public get what they vote for as a whole.

we voted to stay in the UK and therefore accept UK wide decisions and the UK as an entity voted to leave the EU.

rightly or wrongly it could have all been stopped by voting to remain or for other political outcomes.

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[Callum_62]

the public get what they vote for as a whole.

we voted to stay in the UK and therefore accept UK wide decisions and the UK as an entity voted to leave the EU.

rightly or wrongly it could have all been stopped by voting to remain or for other political outcomes.

Sent from my SM-A520F using TapatalkShow me where people voted for a hard Brexit?

Unless my memory is totally shot alot of the talk was Norway and easy deals etc

We are not getting what we voted for

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[Smartie]

Show me where people voted for a hard Brexit?

Unless my memory is totally shot alot of the talk was Norway and easy deals etc

We are not getting what we voted for

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Th majority of Brexit voters don't care though - they voted to leave. Not hard, not soft, they didn't care. They just wanted to leave, and the fudging of the issue means that the winning side aren't getting what they wanted.

I'm by no means a Brexiteer but until I have a queue of unhappy Leave voters moaning, I don't really buy this argument.

We're in a really difficult position now - we commit economic suicide or piss off a huge chunk of the electorate.

[Mr Grieves]

Th majority of Brexit voters don't care though - they voted to leave. Not hard, not soft, they didn't care. They just wanted to leave, and the fudging of the issue means that the winning side aren't getting what they wanted.

I'm by no means a Brexiteer but until I have a queue of unhappy Leave voters moaning, I don't really buy this argument.

We're in a really difficult position now - we commit economic suicide or piss off a huge chunk of the electorate.

A huge chunk of the electorate will be pissed off either way

[Smartie]

A huge chunk of the electorate will be pissed off either way

TBH I can't see an outcome that doesn't piss off practically everyone.

[Fife-Hibee]

Th majority of Brexit voters don't care though - they voted to leave. Not hard, not soft, they didn't care. They just wanted to leave, and the fudging of the issue means that the winning side aren't getting what they wanted.

I'm by no means a Brexiteer but until I have a queue of unhappy Leave voters moaning, I don't really buy this argument.

We're in a really difficult position now - we commit economic suicide or piss off a huge chunk of the electorate.

It's utterly impossible for the "winning" side to get what they wanted. Because they all wanted different things out of this. The tories have hijacked the result to turn it into something that the vast vast majority of the British electorate would have rejected had it been laid out on the ballot paper.

[Colr]

Th majority of Brexit voters don't care though - they voted to leave. Not hard, not soft, they didn't care. They just wanted to leave, and the fudging of the issue means that the winning side aren't getting what they wanted.

I'm by no means a Brexiteer but until I have a queue of unhappy Leave voters moaning, I don't really buy this argument.

We're in a really difficult position now - we commit economic suicide or piss off a huge chunk of the electorate.

I think we’re dripping out. I think it’ll be a disaster and Labour and the Tories will be tainted for a generation. Then we’ll be back in 10 years from now with a worse arrangement than we have now.

If I’m wrong, everything will be OK anyway.

[Fife-Hibee]

https://i.ibb.co/Qd4GRbh/joswin.png

But hold on Jo.... If both Labour and the Conservatives want Brexit. Then who are the Lib Dems going to work with to make up the numbers to stop it? :confused: Unless of course the Lib Dems have no intentions of trying anything to stop it and are simply riding an opportunistic wave which is about to come crashing to the shore.

[Colr]

https://i.ibb.co/Qd4GRbh/joswin.png

But hold on Jo.... If both Labour and the Conservatives want Brexit. Then who are the Lib Dems going to work with to make up the numbers to stop it? :confused: Unless of course the Lib Dems have no intentions of trying anything to stop it and are simply riding an opportunistic wave which is about to come crashing to the shore.

Are you suggesting that Labour and Cons are united on Brexit even within their own parties?

[Fife-Hibee]

Are you suggesting that Labour and Cons are united on Brexit even within their own parties?

Well she did say "Corbyn's Labour", inferring that the whole party under Corbyn wants Brexit.

[SHODAN]

It's going to be no deal and the Eton boy and his Eton chums are going to tell Scotland they'll just have to deal with it because we said so so there.

[mjhibby]

You have to laugh at the Brexit Party .. put up a candidate that takes 3,000 votes off a pro-Brexit Tory to allow a remain candidate to win by just over 1,000 votes !!

Unfortunately it shows that the Tories can win the election if they deliver brexit and then infict years of austerity yet again. How gullible can folk be.

[BroxburnHibee]

I’m almost certain now that we will leave without a deal. The government are doing as much as they can to piss off the EU while MPs are on holiday. It will only take one country in the EU to say enough is enough you either take the deal on offer or leave with no deal, no more extensions. Parliament can do whatever they want and vote on whatever they want, but if the EU don’t give another extension then there’s no chance of a deal.

Parliament could vote to revoke. Or they could threaten to revoke to force a GE

[Just Jimmy]

Show me where people voted for a hard Brexit?

Unless my memory is totally shot alot of the talk was Norway and easy deals etc

We are not getting what we voted for

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalkthey voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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[majorhibs]

Brexit? On a par wi the idiocy of that clown trump, but worse, cos the us will survive while this unthought out halfwitted impossible to achieve foolishness will destroy what was known as the U.K.

[Ozyhibby]

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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That was in the subsequent election manifesto’s of the SNP and the Greens. They went on to win a majority in Parliament based on that manifesto and therefore can have another vote. So long as the Scottish people keep electing parties who want another vote then that’s what we will have. If the SNP have it in their next manifesto that they are going have monthly referendums and people vote for them then that’s what people want.
Democracy did not end in 2014.
If you don’t want more referendums then you better hope that the Tories pick up in the polls in Scotland.


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[lord bunberry]

Parliament could vote to revoke. Or they could threaten to revoke to force a GE
I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

[Colr]

I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

I suspect you are right. Macron seemed resistant to the last extension and I get the feeling that they are sick of the UK......as am I!!

[Callum_62]

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.



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And that's the issue. Absolutely no chance the majority of leave voters thought they were voting for what it looks like they are now getting

My memory of 2016 was easy deals, all the benefits with no downsides, 350m p/w to nhs, Norway, Switzerland

None of that is what we are getting

You can't seriously think that if in 2016 we were told that our deal would be a hard Brexit then leave voters would say great, I'm in

The reason I say that with confidence as back then even the now hard Brexiteers never talked about it


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[lord bunberry]

I suspect you are right. Macron seemed resistant to the last extension and I get the feeling that they are sick of the UK......as am I!!
I think that’s the plan. That way they can blame the EU for no deal.

[Just Jimmy]

And that's the issue. Absolutely no chance the majority of leave voters thought they were voting for what it looks like they are now getting

My memory of 2016 was easy deals, all the benefits with no downsides, 350m p/w to nhs, Norway, Switzerland

None of that is what we are getting

You can't seriously think that if in 2016 we were told that our deal would be a hard Brexit then leave voters would say great, I'm in

The reason I say that with confidence as back then even the now hard Brexiteers never talked about it


Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalkof course not, but did anyone with a brain even really think we'd be able to walk away and keep all the good things?

it's in the interest of the EU to make it as bad as they can or else others say they'll leave too.

if you divorce, you don't keep everything. at best you compromise and get some of the good.

I'm whole heartily against leaving the EU. It's economic suicide and as bad as been forecast, I think it'll be a hell of a lot worse. my point however was the paper was a choice of stay or leave and the majority of those eligible, who voted, voted leave. if they wanted more concrete explanations before then they should have voted remain or pressed for them.

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[Just Jimmy]

That was in the subsequent election manifesto’s of the SNP and the Greens. They went on to win a majority in Parliament based on that manifesto and therefore can have another vote. So long as the Scottish people keep electing parties who want another vote then that’s what we will have. If the SNP have it in their next manifesto that they are going have monthly referendums and people vote for them then that’s what people want.
Democracy did not end in 2014.
If you don’t want more referendums then you better hope that the Tories pick up in the polls in Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkdemocracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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[Moulin Yarns]

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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As Disraeli said:



'Finality is not the language of politics'.

[Fife-Hibee]

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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The "once in a generation" thing was merely a quote. It serves no legal basis and there is no mention of it in the Edinburgh Agreement (which was breached by Better Together anyway).

Just like their tosh about "equal family of nations", "best of both worlds", "devo max", "full federalism", "the vow", "northern powerhouses"..... etc. It all went flying out the window on the 18th of September 2014 because there was no legal requirement for them to follow through with any of it.

[Callum_62]

of course not, but did anyone with a brain even really think we'd be able to walk away and keep all the good things?

it's in the interest of the EU to make it as bad as they can or else others say they'll leave too.

if you divorce, you don't keep everything. at best you compromise and get some of the good.

I'm whole heartily against leaving the EU. It's economic suicide and as bad as been forecast, I think it'll be a hell of a lot worse. my point however was the paper was a choice of stay or leave and the majority of those eligible, who voted, voted leave. if they wanted more concrete explanations before then they should have voted remain or pressed for them.

Sent from my SM-A520F using TapatalkHmmm, folk voting in the information provided to them - can't really blame the voters now can we

What we should be doing is holding those in power to account

Regardless, MPs are there to look after our best interests

Anyone looking at the governments forecasts can plainly see any brexit, nevermind a hard Brexit is not in our interests at all

Shurugging shoulders and saying oh well that's what apparently folk voted for is a deriliction of duty

The fact that all this analysis was tried to be kept hidden tells you everything you need to know

This shouldnt be some party political points scoring exercise--this should have been from day 1, an open transparent cross party deal

The govt at every step has been sneaky, underhand and downright incompetent - none of these things exists if you are benefitting your population

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[Just Jimmy]

Hmmm, folk voting in the information provided to them - can't really blame the voters now can we

What we should be doing is holding those in power to account

Regardless, MPs are there to look after our best interests

Anyone looking at the governments forecasts can plainly see any brexit, nevermind a hard Brexit is not in our interests at all

Shurugging shoulders and saying oh well that's what apparently folk voted for is a deriliction of duty

The fact that all this analysis was tried to be kept hidden tells you everything you need to know

This shouldnt be some party political points scoring exercise--this should have been from day 1, an open transparent cross party deal

The govt at every step has been sneaky, underhand and downright incompetent - none of these things exists if you are benefitting your population

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkI'm well aware of what brexit mean. the initial point however was that people voted to leave and leave wasn't defined so any type of leave is delivering that.

that is completely at odds with how I actually feel about the whole situation but never the less if the choice is stay or go and go is the winning vote, with no defined perimeters then how can they say they didn't vote for that?

the reality is that some issues are too big to be trusted to the general public to be voted on.

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[BroxburnHibee]

I don’t think there’s a majority to revoke though. I think the EU will get so fed up of Johnson and his cohorts, they’ll give a final take it or leave it ultimatum as we approach the deadline.

We'll see as the date gets closer peoples minds will start to change.

No deal would be a disaster.

[Future17]

democracy is not voting and voting each week until you get what you want.

I'm whole heartedly against brexit. I voted remain. however the majority of those that voted, voted for leave. this was never defined it was straight in or out.

Independence was sold as a once in a generation vote. regardless of how I voted at the time. Scotland knew it didn't often get a say in UK affairs and it voted to maintain that anyway. so why the outrage when a largely English decision impacts Scotland so much?

I'm firmly of the belief it will happen but to pretend brexit is bad but independence is all rosey is nieve at best. there's plenty of constitutional issues which remain unanswered and never were addressed properly.

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Full disclosure, I voted "Yes" in 2014, but I'm not sure how I'd vote in another referendum. However, out of all the talk around Scottish independence, on both sides of the argument, the "once in a generation" line is the one that riles me the most. It's usually preceded, or followed, by a comment suggesting that anyone advocating for another referendum is not "respecting democracy".

I can't think of anything less democratic than denying an electorate something which they have voted for on the basis of a campaigning slogan from a previous referendum. For what it's worth, I'm not saying the Scottish electorate has voted for another referendum, but the "once in a generation" position suggests that it would be irrelevant if they had.

[Ozyhibby]

Full disclosure, I voted "Yes" in 2014, but I'm not sure how I'd vote in another referendum. However, out of all the talk around Scottish independence, on both sides of the argument, the "once in a generation" line is the one that riles me the most. It's usually preceded, or followed, by a comment suggesting that anyone advocating for another referendum is not "respecting democracy".

I can't think of anything less democratic than denying an electorate something which they have voted for on the basis of a campaigning slogan from a previous referendum. For what it's worth, I'm not saying the Scottish electorate has voted for another referendum, but the "once in a generation" position suggests that it would be irrelevant if they had.

The once in a generation comment was said once in one interview by Alex Salmond. It was his opinion. It was not in the Edinburgh agreement or anywhere else.


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[weecounty hibby]

I think that’s the plan. That way they can blame the EU for no deal.

It's already building towards that. Tories now saying that the EU are refusing to have any discussion

[Bristolhibby]

they voted to leave. the terms weren't set out. soft or hard or no deal if we leave they'll have got what they voted for.

Scotland voted to stay and has to deal with the consequences. I never saw "remain unless 2 years from now something happens you don't fancy" on the paper.



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Well that’s that then.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Well that’s that then.

J

As Disraeli said:


'Finality is not the language of politics'.

[Mr Grieves]

It's already building towards that. Tories now saying that the EU are refusing to have any discussion

I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

[marinello59]

I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

He will think he can survive because for most of us it won’t be daily chaos and many of those who vote Tory will be amongst the least likely to suffer any real financial hardship. He is banking on those of us who wish to remain in the EU overdoing the doomsday stuff so he can ask what all the fuss was about later. It’s a trap we shouldn’t fall in to.

[Ozyhibby]

He will think he can survive because for most of us it won’t be daily chaos and many of those who vote Tory will be amongst the least likely to suffer any real financial hardship. He is banking on those of us who wish to remain in the EU overdoing the doomsday stuff so he can ask what all the fuss was about later. It’s a trap we shouldn’t fall in to.

Plus it’s not like people believe Corbyn will sort it all out anyway. So long a Labour have Corbyn, Johnson will correctly bet that he can win a GE.


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[Just Alf]

What I'm wondering, politicians are elected to run the country for the 'best'.

It's always been assumed that they have more info than Joe public so can make informed decisions that benefit/protect the nation... My question is, if a group of politicians actually damage the country for ideological reasons is that treason?

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[weecounty hibby]

I wonder what Johnson's plan is when everything goes to ****? Johnson has been telling folk there'll be minimal disruption if there is no deal, so how will he survive the chaos that no deal will bring? I'm really struggling to comprehend this

It won't matter one bit. There are still loads of Brexit voters who are only interested in keeping Johnny Foreign out and taking back control, whatever the **** that actually means and are happy to take the consequences. If there was a GE now he'd get in and I'm convinced that if/when he delivers a Brexit if any kind he will still get in if he waits to call GE.

[Fife-Hibee]

Scotland's brexit party MEP.

https://i.ibb.co/LZpQvpz/brexitmep.png

The Scottish electorate actually gave this halfwit a job. :rolleyes:

[Mibbes Aye]

What I'm wondering, politicians are elected to run the country for the 'best'.

It's always been assumed that they have more info than Joe public so can make informed decisions that benefit/protect the nation... My question is, if a group of politicians actually damage the country for ideological reasons is that treason?

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It’s an interesting question but I suppose the problem with ideologues is they genuinely believe what they are doing is the right thing for the right reasons! So they can’t see themselves as treasonous, they see themselves as patriotic or somehow acting in the greater good for all!

The lack of a formal constitution probably doesn’t help but I don’t think the presence of one would have made a difference in this case.

[CloudSquall]

Italy heading for an election which is likely to yield a government heavy to the right and extremely at odds with Brussels, likely to be right around the time of Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

Italy heading for an election which is likely to yield a government heavy to the right and extremely at odds with Brussels, likely to be right around the time of Brexit.

That’s ok, wait 6 months and they’ll have another one.[emoji3]


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[mjhibby]

It's already building towards that. Tories now saying that the EU are refusing to have any discussion

Utter lies from gove. Buffoon Boris says they are still negotiating. The Tory tags are in overdrive with misinformation. The masters of fake news just like trump. They can't even get their fake news correct. I think it's beginning to dawn on Boris and his troop of clowns how bad it could get. Boris was only interested in power and is incapable of understanding how anything works. He all mouth and no action. His promises of money for various things are utterly garbage and the only reasoning I can come up with is that he hopes to con the public then hope it all turns out ok by some miracle. Never have I had such utter disdain for this horrible Tory party. Much as I don't like the behaviour of MPs plotting to bring down Boris it's only they who can stop the catastrophic no deal brexit. Democracy is reduced to Ken Clarke bringing down s Tory govt. Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

[majorhibs]

Utter lies from gove. Buffoon Boris says they are still negotiating. The Tory tags are in overdrive with misinformation. The masters of fake news just like trump. They can't even get their fake news correct. I think it's beginning to dawn on Boris and his troop of clowns how bad it could get. Boris was only interested in power and is incapable of understanding how anything works. He all mouth and no action. His promises of money for various things are utterly garbage and the only reasoning I can come up with is that he hopes to con the public then hope it all turns out ok by some miracle. Never have I had such utter disdain for this horrible Tory party. Much as I don't like the behaviour of MPs plotting to bring down Boris it's only they who can stop the catastrophic no deal brexit. Democracy is reduced to Ken Clarke bringing down s Tory govt. Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

How do people not see through this promise anything & everything charade just to be in power?

[lapsedhibee]

How do people not see through this promise anything & everything charade just to be in power?

:agree: You don't even need to be particularly cynical to recognise that most of everything that is coming out of Downing St at the moment is BS. The genius Cummings has decreed that his cabinet spokesdummies are not allowed to say 'backstop' without prefixing it 'undemocratic' or 'antidemocratic', so they do, ad nauseam. His latest pish is that 'politicians are not allowed to decide which votes they respect'. It was an advisory referendum, you cretin, not an election.

[Moulin Yarns]

Here we go. Downwards to Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49290926

[CloudSquall]

Here we go. Downwards to Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49290926

I wonder if this will affect the timing of an election, another quarter of negative growth which is likely would see us in a recession..

[CloudSquall]

Some more strength and security from the union.

http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/michael-gove-discussed-closing-banks-the-day-after-no-deal-brexit-2019-8 (http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/michael-gove-discussed-closing-banks-the-day-after-no-deal-brexit-2019-8)

[lapsedhibee]

Some more strength and security from the union.

http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/michael-gove-discussed-closing-banks-the-day-after-no-deal-brexit-2019-8 (http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/michael-gove-discussed-closing-banks-the-day-after-no-deal-brexit-2019-8)

Why stop at closing the banks? Shirley if the shops were closed as well, that would lessen the impact of there being no fresh food on shelves. I think Govey's on to something :agree: .

[CloudSquall]

Why stop at closing the banks? Shirley if the shops were closed as well, that would lessen the impact of there being no fresh food on shelves. I think Govey's on to something :agree: .

It's going to be an extra "Bank Holiday", a nice day off for everyone, what's to worry about:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

It's going to be an extra "Bank Holiday", a nice day off for everyone, what's to worry about:greengrin

That sounds great. This government certainly knows how to make us Britons feel good about ourselves again. Next, get India back :agree: .

[weecounty hibby]

That sounds great. This government certainly knows how to make us Britons feel good about ourselves again. Next, get India back :agree: .
More likely to see an Indian takeover of the UK!!

[Moulin Yarns]

More likely to see an Indian takeover of the UK!!

I think that's more likely to be an Indian takeaway of the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/the-remain-alliance-that-could-spoil-boris-johnsons-party/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Some hope that remain are getting their act together.


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[ronaldo7]

I see England and Wales were running rehearsals for a no deal Brexit yesterday. Who switched the lights off.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Things seems to have gone quiet i.e. no deal looks a certainty. Bozo and his loonies are already setting the narrative that the EU won't negotiate. Of course he doesn't mention that negotiations took months and produced a 600 page withdrawal agreement, only for parliamaent to reject it three times. We had a bespoke withdrawal agreement in which we managed to get the best terms possible, hence there is nothing more than the EU can give, without breaking its own rules on the single market and customs union.

There just isn't time to open up this can of worms again before Halloween.

[Ozyhibby]

I see England and Wales were running rehearsals for a no deal Brexit yesterday. Who switched the lights off.

Imagine that had happened here? The Hibs.net unionists would have been all over it as clear proof that Scotland is incapable of managing its own affairs.


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[weecounty hibby]

According to the beeb fishing rights and protecting the fishing grounds not looking like the walk in the park it was meant to be.

[Fife-Hibee]

According to the beeb fishing rights and protecting the fishing grounds not looking like the walk in the park it was meant to be.

I hope the fishers get exactly what they're demanding. Perhaps then they'll feel that bullet in their foot.

[Jack]

According to the beeb fishing rights and protecting the fishing grounds not looking like the walk in the park it was meant to be.

Made all the more complicated as, I understand, almost half the UK licences were sold to overseas companies.

[Just Alf]

Imagine that had happened here? The Hibs.net unionists would have been all over it as clear proof that Scotland is incapable of managing its own affairs.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThay have a point... Why did we not get to practice as well? :grr

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[Future17]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

I can only imagine the reaction if Boris Johnson suggested an all-male cabinet.

[heretoday]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

I can only imagine the reaction if Boris Johnson suggested an all-male cabinet.
I thought Caroline Lucas was supposed to be above this sort of stunt.

[Saturday Boy]

I’m currently in Slovenia, combining a holiday with watching Hibs Ladies in the Champions League. Whenever I’m asked where I come from, I get the same bewildered response and disbelief that the UK wants to leave the EU. There’s a road junction just a few hundred metres from where I’m sitting, not a motorway, just a road in town. Hungary is straight ahead, Croatia to the right and Austria to the left. And people and goods pass freely between all four countries. It’s no surprise that they all think we’re mad.

[Moulin Yarns]

I thought Caroline Lucas was supposed to be above this sort of stunt.

If you mean stopping Brexit, then that is part of her job.

[CloudSquall]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

I can only imagine the reaction if Boris Johnson suggested an all-male cabinet.

If comments like that were made the other way around there would be mock outrage galore until someone was sacked and grovelling for forgiveness in the media.

It's the sort of nonsense that puts me right off voting Green.

[Future17]

If comments like that were made the other way around there would be mock outrage galore until someone was sacked and grovelling for forgiveness in the media.

It's the sort of nonsense that puts me right off voting Green.

It's ok; it's a different party in Scotland (presuming that's where you live).

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is the point we've now reached: the brave new world of limitless possibilities we were promised were waiting for us outside the EU has shrunk to 'British Bulldog spirit'.


https://youtu.be/2p52sAEUcNA

[lapsedhibee]

This is the point we've now reached: the brave new world of limitless possibilities we were promised were waiting for us outside the EU has shrunk to 'British Bulldog spirit'.


https://youtu.be/2p52sAEUcNA

Such a gloomster, James O'Brien, what with his logic and his rational thought processes.

[JeMeSouviens]

This is the point we've now reached: the brave new world of limitless possibilities we were promised were waiting for us outside the EU has shrunk to 'British Bulldog spirit'.


https://youtu.be/2p52sAEUcNA

Hey we* survived 2 world wars you know!


* give or take a million or so.

[lapsedhibee]

Hey we* survived 2 world wars you know!


* give or take a million or so.

We had Hong Kong before we joined the EU, and now look at it.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-botched-departure-from-eu-should-not-lead-to-botched-exit-from-uk-1.3984077?mode=amp#.XVJkn3_VT5w.twitter


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-botched-departure-from-eu-should-not-lead-to-botched-exit-from-uk-1.3984077?mode=amp#.XVJkn3_VT5w.twitter


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Good read, thanks for sharing.

[Ozyhibby]

For those with Netflix, ‘The Great Hack’ is an interesting watch.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/no-chance-of-us-uk-deal-if-northern-ireland-peace-at-risk-pelosi?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


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[Hibrandenburg]

So the British government couldn't be arsed claiming the money they were entitled to from individual EU countries but now find it worthwhile to claim from individual people after Brexit. A non story but a vote winner amongst the Gammons. Strap yourself in, there's an election on the way.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nhs-charge-eu-citizens-treatment-after-no-deal-brexit-2019-8?r=US&IR=T

[ronaldo7]

For those with Netflix, ‘The Great Hack’ is an interesting watch.


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I watched it the other week. Carol Cadwalladr is very enlightening.

Cambridge analytica, had their paws all over Brexit.

Brittany Kaiser's part in the whole affair is extremely worrying.

What's next.

[lapsedhibee]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/no-chance-of-us-uk-deal-if-northern-ireland-peace-at-risk-pelosi?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


Collaborators everywhere. Shouldn't she be getting her head shaved?

[Moulin Yarns]

UK must accept USA food standards for any trade deals, says Zippy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220

[Future17]

UK must accept USA food standards for any trade deals, says Zippy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220

Let's see what Prime Minister Bungle has to say about this.

[Saturday Boy]

Let's see what Prime Minister Bungle has to say about this.

I’ve just caught up with this thread, and I’m so annoyed that someone beat me to the Bungle joke.

As an off topic aside, I’m going through cold turkey with Edinburgh beer prices after 10 days in Slovenia. 😱

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190815/cff353935ceec7b9de7757acfeff2ba3.jpg
Tory mp ready to back Corbyn’s plan.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190815/cff353935ceec7b9de7757acfeff2ba3.jpg
Tory mp ready to back Corbyn’s plan.


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And Grieve, Boles, Letwin, the Greens, Plaid and SNP all willing to at least engage.

Wtf are the Libs on? Actually, what is the point of the Libs anyway? When was the last time they achieved anything "liberal"?

[Ozyhibby]

And Grieve, Boles, Letwin, the Greens, Plaid and SNP all willing to at least engage.

Wtf are the Libs on? Actually, what is the point of the Libs anyway? When was the last time they achieved anything "liberal"?

They’ll cave under pressure. Swinson has misjudged the situation.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

Just watched Swinson being interviewed on c4, she's all over the place.

[Fife-Hibee]

Just watched Swinson being interviewed on c4, she's all over the place.

The usual then. Channel 4 seems to be the only British broadcasting network that asks politicans and leaders the questions that they should all be asking them.

[Jack Hackett]

They’ll cave under pressure. Swinson has misjudged the situation.


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As self-serving now as when they propped up Cameron. They were given a 2nd chance at the Euros and it's given them ideas way above their actual station. I can't stand the man, but if the best way of stopping the current clown in chief from hurtling us over the cliff, is to unite under Corbyn, then so be it. Swinson needs a wee reality check

[Mibbes Aye]

They’ll cave under pressure. Swinson has misjudged the situation.


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Do you think her proposal of an anti-Brexit temporary government under Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke is worse than Corbyn’s proposal where he leads things?

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you think her proposal of an anti-Brexit temporary government under Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke is worse than Corbyn’s proposal where he leads things?

If it's a temporary position with the sole purpose of steering the UK away from Brexit, then why does she care if it's Corbyn?

If she wants it to be Ken Clarke so badly, then why doesn't she give up her own leadership to him, instead of expecting Corbyn to give up his position to a tory?

The lib dems can do a direct swap, one tory leader for another.

[Pretty Boy]

If any vote of no confidence fails by a margin that the Lib Dems could have influenced then Swinson will decimate their vote more than Clegg ever did in a fraction of the time. Hopefully their MPs will disobey any whip and vote with their conscience.

[Mibbes Aye]

If it's a temporary position with the sole purpose of steering the UK away from Brexit, then why does she care if it's Corbyn?

If she wants it to be Ken Clarke so badly, then why doesn't she give up her own leadership to him, instead of expecting Corbyn to give up his position to a tory?

The lib dems can do a direct swap, one tory leader for another.

You are falling for sectarian politics I suspect.

There are many Remainers on either side who could stomach Harman or Clarke if it meant avoiding the cataclysm, but crucially what also unites them is a complete lack of trust in Corbyn.

That mistrust is less about his competence, though he has repeatedly shown he is incompetent, it is more to do with him being happy to allow Brexit to happen in the first place.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think her proposal of an anti-Brexit temporary government under Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke is worse than Corbyn’s proposal where he leads things?

No, I think her proposal is much better. The problem is she has to recognise the fact that she has a much smaller amount of mp’s.
I can see why they are wary. The GE would be fought with Corbyn as PM and labour being presented as the remain party. This would kill the Lib Dem revival.
She should not rule out Corbyn leading the temp govt but she would be mad not to get some major concessions from Labour including a non aggression pact in seats where Lib Dem’s are biggest challenge to the Tories or where Lib Dem’s have a sitting MP.
It would take a lot of horse trading to get to a situation where the remain parties could say they have a deal but they have to start somewhere and they need to start now.


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[marinello59]

Just watched Swinson being interviewed on c4, she's all over the place.

My son has just described her as a female Macron. Fair comment?

[Mibbes Aye]

No, I think her proposal is much better. The problem is she has to recognise the fact that she has a much smaller amount of mp’s.
I can see why they are wary. The GE would be fought with Corbyn as PM and labour being presented as the remain party. This would kill the Lib Dem revival.
She should not rule out Corbyn leading the temp govt but she would be mad not to get some major concessions from Labour including a non aggression pact in seats where Lib Dem’s are biggest challenge to the Tories or where Lib Dem’s have a sitting MP.
It would take a lot of horse trading to get to a situation where the remain parties could say they have a deal but they have to start somewhere and they need to start now.


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Good analysis. My fear is the swivel heads like Seamas Milne will stick rigorously to the purity of their ideology and pull Corbyn’s strings in whichever way they want. Which will be Brexit in whatever form, but hey, it is ideologically pure.........

[Ozyhibby]

Good analysis. My fear is the swivel heads like Seamas Milne will stick rigorously to the purity of their ideology and pull Corbyn’s strings in whichever way they want. Which will be Brexit in whatever form, but hey, it is ideologically pure.........

Yip, I still think Labour is the biggest problem for a deal.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

My son has just described her as a female Macron. Fair comment?

Haha, well she is beginning to get rather gauling 😁

[Bristolhibby]

Good analysis. My fear is the swivel heads like Seamas Milne will stick rigorously to the purity of their ideology and pull Corbyn’s strings in whichever way they want. Which will be Brexit in whatever form, but hey, it is ideologically pure.........

It’s crap like that that lost the Republicans the Civil war in Spain. Strong parallels.

The Left being unable to unite themselves against a galvanised Fascist leader.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s crap like that that lost the Republicans the Civil war in Spain. Strong parallels.

The Left being unable to unite themselves against a galvanised Fascist leader.

J

Sheer honesty, I replied to your post because I interpreted it one way and then when I posted my reply I read your post differently, so I deleted my post!

[Bristolhibby]

Sheer honesty, I replied to your post because I interpreted it one way and then when I posted my reply I read your post differently, so I deleted my post!

Fair play. (I didn’t see your first post).

J

[Fife-Hibee]

You are falling for sectarian politics I suspect.

There are many Remainers on either side who could stomach Harman or Clarke if it meant avoiding the cataclysm, but crucially what also unites them is a complete lack of trust in Corbyn.

That mistrust is less about his competence, though he has repeatedly shown he is incompetent, it is more to do with him being happy to allow Brexit to happen in the first place.

What makes you so sure that a Conservative or a "moderate" can be trusted anymore than Corbyn to stand in the way of Brexit?

Those who genuinely want to stop a hard brexit will unite behind anyone (including Corbyn) to prevent it. The "anyone but Corbyn" brigade really aren't that bothered about stopping it.

[Colr]

What makes you so sure that a Conservative or a "moderate" can be trusted anymore than Corbyn to stand in the way of Brexit?

Those who genuinely want to stop a hard brexit will unite behind anyone (including Corbyn) to prevent it. The "anyone but Corbyn" brigade really aren't that bothered about stopping it.

No point in replacing one disaster with another one.

Corbyn’s thirst for power is the only thing stopping this happening.

He needs to step aside or (once again) him and his canal will be facilitating Brexit - and it won’t be forgotten!!

[Fife-Hibee]

No point in replacing one disaster with another one.

Corbyn’s thirst for power is the only thing stopping this happening.

He needs to step aside or (once again) him and his canal will be facilitating Brexit - and it won’t be forgotten!!

That's where you're wrong. He doesn't need to step aside. No politician ever needs to step aside. If the party wants rid of him so badly, they can force him out democratically.

Corbyn isn't anti Corbyn and obviously doesn't want himself to be replaced by a tory. So why doesn't Jo Swinson offer up her job instead, seeing as it's what she wants? Is it possible that her "thirst for power" prevents her from doing so?

[CloudSquall]

My son has just described her as a female Macron. Fair comment?

Add Poundland before female and he's not far off.

[Jack]

The big 2 are in turmoil over Brexit.

The solution for this situation would be to have a temporary prime minister from a party that has always been against Brexit that would allow these parties to continue their internal squabbles while not murdering the country.

Step forward Hibernian FC MP, Ian Blackford.

[Fife-Hibee]

The big 2 are in turmoil over Brexit.

The solution for this situation would be to have a temporary prime minister from a party that has always been against Brexit that would allow these parties to continue their internal squabbles while not murdering the country.

Step forward Hibernian FC MP, Ian Blackford.

That'll go down well. :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

I'm beginning to think the brexit result was the plan all along (regardless of how people actually voted) in order to pander to American interests. Isn't it odd that the Americans were just waiting to set up a trade deal? It's as if they anticipated all of this.

There's been talk of Russian interference, but I think that's just a cover. It's been America all along.

[Just Alf]

That'll go down well. :greengrin

It's a sort of win win in a way, whichever UK party has the temporary PM which stops brexit will lose all their brexiteer support, let the SNP have the figurehead PM then on one hand they probably won't loose too many votes and on the other if/when Scotland gets independence it won't matter anyway, the rUK Parties won't be tainted (or at least they'll all be tainted to the same degree).

Sorted! :greengrin

[G B Young]

What makes you so sure that a Conservative or a "moderate" can be trusted anymore than Corbyn to stand in the way of Brexit?

Those who genuinely want to stop a hard brexit will unite behind anyone (including Corbyn) to prevent it. The "anyone but Corbyn" brigade really aren't that bothered about stopping it.

The reason a more 'moderate' option, such as the mooted joint Labour/Conservative Harman/Clarke combo, would instil greater trust than Corbyn is pretty obvious. Both Harman and Clarke are long-standing supporters of the EU, both have years of experience in high office and would command a wide spectrum of respect and support across the house. Corbyn can offer none of these things and can't command the support of his own party, let alone the house. Aside from his muddled stance on Europe, his motives are solely about grasping power by any means possible. That is why anyone with a genuine desire to stop a hard Brexit will not back him. What's required is somebody with no ambition beyond stopping a no deal exit, which is why the likes of Harman and Clarke would fit the bill.

A more divisive figure than Boris is the last thing that's required at a time when cross-party unity is key - and whatever anyone's personal opinion of her, Swinson was correct to lead the calls to reject his scheme out of hand.

[Ozyhibby]

The reason a more 'moderate' option, such as the mooted joint Labour/Conservative Harman/Clarke combo, would instil greater trust than Corbyn is pretty obvious. Both Harman and Clarke are long-standing supporters of the EU, both have years of experience in high office and would command a wide spectrum of respect and support across the house. Corbyn can offer none of these things and can't command the support of his own party, let alone the house. Aside from his muddled stance on Europe, his motives are solely about grasping power by any means possible. That is why anyone with a genuine desire to stop a hard Brexit will not back him. What's required is somebody with no ambition beyond stopping a no deal exit, which is why the likes of Harman and Clarke would fit the bill.

A more divisive figure than Boris is the last thing that's required at a time when cross-party unity is key - and whatever anyone's personal opinion of her, Swinson was correct to lead the calls to reject his scheme out of hand.

100% agree but Swinson should have handled it better by offering talks right away rather than attacking Corbyn.


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[Mr Grieves]

The reason a more 'moderate' option, such as the mooted joint Labour/Conservative Harman/Clarke combo, would instil greater trust than Corbyn is pretty obvious. Both Harman and Clarke are long-standing supporters of the EU, both have years of experience in high office and would command a wide spectrum of respect and support across the house. Corbyn can offer none of these things and can't command the support of his own party, let alone the house. Aside from his muddled stance on Europe, his motives are solely about grasping power by any means possible. That is why anyone with a genuine desire to stop a hard Brexit will not back him. What's required is somebody with no ambition beyond stopping a no deal exit, which is why the likes of Harman and Clarke would fit the bill.

A more divisive figure than Boris is the last thing that's required at a time when cross-party unity is key - and whatever anyone's personal opinion of her, Swinson was correct to lead the calls to reject his scheme out of hand.

As leader of the opposition Corbyn is within his rights to try to form a government should a vote of no confidence pass. I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's said or done the last few days....BUT I agree that a national unity government led by Clarke/Harman would be preferable. Having a Tory as PM would be best (never thought I would say that :rolleyes:), as it would give BJ/Cummings/Tory leavers less ammunition.

[Glory Lurker]

The reason a more 'moderate' option, such as the mooted joint Labour/Conservative Harman/Clarke combo, would instil greater trust than Corbyn is pretty obvious. Both Harman and Clarke are long-standing supporters of the EU, both have years of experience in high office and would command a wide spectrum of respect and support across the house. Corbyn can offer none of these things and can't command the support of his own party, let alone the house. Aside from his muddled stance on Europe, his motives are solely about grasping power by any means possible. That is why anyone with a genuine desire to stop a hard Brexit will not back him. What's required is somebody with no ambition beyond stopping a no deal exit, which is why the likes of Harman and Clarke would fit the bill.

A more divisive figure than Boris is the last thing that's required at a time when cross-party unity is key - and whatever anyone's personal opinion of her, Swinson was correct to lead the calls to reject his scheme out of hand.

Corbyn more divisive than Johnson (you use the affectionate "Boris")? Really? And who cares, if him being in charge convinces the big boys in this debate, the EU, to give us more time to extract ourselves from this clusterflip? Because, what seems to be being overlooked in all this UK navel gazing is that it's not in our gift to avoid a no deal brexit by calling a general election, yadah, yadah. We are out on 31/10.

Get Corbyn in. Show the EU there's been a seismic change. We MIGHT get more time to sort it out. Swinson is trying to break the Labour Party when she should only have one target - stop Brexit. She is a Tory-enabling charlatan.

[Mr Grieves]

This is ****ing madness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

'The dossier reported by the Sunday Times says leaving the EU without a deal could lead to:

Fresh food becoming less available and prices rising
A hard Irish border after plans to avoid checks fail, sparking protests
Fuel becoming less available and 2,000 jobs could be lost if the government sets petrol import tariffs to 0%, potentially causing two oil refineries to close
UK patients having to wait longer for medicines, including insulin and flu vaccines
A rise in public disorder and community tensions resulting from a shortage of food and drugs
Passengers delayed at EU airports, Eurotunnel and Dover
Freight disruption at ports lasting up to three months, caused by customs checks, before traffic flow improves to 50-70% of the current rate'

[Callum_62]

This is ****ing madness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

'The dossier reported by the Sunday Times says leaving the EU without a deal could lead to:

Fresh food becoming less available and prices rising
A hard Irish border after plans to avoid checks fail, sparking protests
Fuel becoming less available and 2,000 jobs could be lost if the government sets petrol import tariffs to 0%, potentially causing two oil refineries to close
UK patients having to wait longer for medicines, including insulin and flu vaccines
A rise in public disorder and community tensions resulting from a shortage of food and drugs
Passengers delayed at EU airports, Eurotunnel and Dover
Freight disruption at ports lasting up to three months, caused by customs checks, before traffic flow improves to 50-70% of the current rate'Project fear

Then when it happens - EUs fault

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[CloudSquall]

The bulldog spirit that saw us prevail in the Battle of Britain will see the grand old ship of Britannia weather the storm and return us to the glorious days of the Empire.

© DailyHeil

[ballengeich]

If Johnson was serious about wanting to leave with a deal he would be putting an alternative to the backstop to the EU and asking for an extension to the exit date to allow time for negotiation and agreement. Unless there are behind the scenes discussions going on which completely contradict his public statements I believe he has no-deal as his goal, probably followed by a general election to be held before the consequences really sink in, blaming the EU for any problems.

His negotiating position can be summed up as - if you don't agree to everything I ask for I'm going to jump into a cess pit. A few splashes might reach you, and it'll be your fault that I don't smell nice.

[Fife-Hibee]

If Johnson was serious about wanting to leave with a deal he would be putting an alternative to the backstop to the EU and asking for an extension to the exit date to allow time for negotiation and agreement. Unless there are behind the scenes discussions going on which completely contradict his public statements I believe he has no-deal as his goal, probably followed by a general election to be held before the consequences really sink in, blaming the EU for any problems.

His negotiating position can be summed up as - if you don't agree to everything I ask for I'm going to jump into a cess pit. A few splashes might reach you, and it'll be your fault that I don't smell nice.

It's not just Boris Johnsons goal. It has been the general goal of the UK Government, US Government and Russian Government working in collaboration. Theresa May was just a side show to make it look like they were trying to get a deal, as they knew the vast majority of the general public would never back a hard brexit. So they have to make it look like a blunder instead. But make no mistake, this was all by design.

[Moulin Yarns]

Some more talks due next week. tick, tock

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

[Jack Hackett]

Project fear

Then when it happens - EUs fault

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Bang on cue

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/john-redwood-dismisses-leaked-no-brexit-report/

[RyeSloan]

This is ****ing madness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

'The dossier reported by the Sunday Times says leaving the EU without a deal could lead to:

Fresh food becoming less available and prices rising
A hard Irish border after plans to avoid checks fail, sparking protests
Fuel becoming less available and 2,000 jobs could be lost if the government sets petrol import tariffs to 0%, potentially causing two oil refineries to close
UK patients having to wait longer for medicines, including insulin and flu vaccines
A rise in public disorder and community tensions resulting from a shortage of food and drugs
Passengers delayed at EU airports, Eurotunnel and Dover
Freight disruption at ports lasting up to three months, caused by customs checks, before traffic flow improves to 50-70% of the current rate'

Yet the head of french ports sounds rather more relaxed about the whole affair..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/amp/

[lapsedhibee]

Yet the head of french ports sounds rather more relaxed about the whole affair..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/amp/

Even if we had a government that knew what it was doing, there would be teething problems. To pretend as the Frenchman does that no-one will even notice anything, c'est la bull****. I wonder if the Telegraph has reported what he said accurately.

[RyeSloan]

Even if we had a government that knew what it was doing, there would be teething problems. To pretend as the Frenchman does that no-one will even notice anything, c'est la bull****. I wonder if the Telegraph has reported what he said accurately.

Well I haven’t seen him or anyone else suggesting that he was mis quoted.

And while I get what you are saying I’m not quite sure you can be sure he is ‘pretending’. He does appear to be the dude that would and should know his onions regarding such things.

Anyway I’m not suggesting he is right or wrong just thought it was useful as some balance to the Treasuries scenarios that, like the BoE’s previous stuff, get picked up and presented as some sort of fact or prediction when they are quite clearly not.

[lapsedhibee]

Anyway I’m not suggesting he is right or wrong just thought it was useful as some balance to the Treasuries scenarios that, like the BoE’s previous stuff, get picked up and presented as some sort of fact or prediction when they are quite clearly not.

Shirley they are some sort of prediction, non? But agree that the short-term catastrophism is a bit overplayed. (I'm old enough to remember the millennium bug.)

What's possibly underplayed is the longer-term catastrophe of allowing the current government-by-lies model to have its way, without proper opposition, and thereby flourish. There lies genuine danger.

[RyeSloan]

Shirley they are some sort of prediction, non? But agree that the short-term catastrophism is a bit overplayed. (I'm old enough to remember the millennium bug.)

What's possibly underplayed is the longer-term catastrophe of allowing the current government-by-lies model to have its way, without proper opposition, and thereby flourish. There lies genuine danger.

Ahh governments that don’t lie and a proper opposition....now there is something I can predict is somewhat unlikely [emoji6]

[Moulin Yarns]

Ahh governments that don’t lie and a proper opposition....now there is something I can predict is somewhat unlikely [emoji6]

I wonder when Pinocchio got a job in the government


https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1163060170395660288?s=19

[Mr Grieves]

Yet the head of french ports sounds rather more relaxed about the whole affair..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/amp/

Quite. It's totally worth exposing ourselves to these risks to reach the Brexit sunlit uplands, the positives of which we'll find out soon enough.

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49387542

More money being wasted because the UK government have put us in this situation. What is the point? How is a no deal brexit going to improve my life?

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49387542

More money being wasted because the UK government have put us in this situation. What is the point? How is a no deal brexit going to improve my life?
You'll be able to use 3-pin plugs. (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/)

[Jack Hackett]

You'll be able to use 3-pin plugs. (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/)

Only on days when the power is on

[Moulin Yarns]

Only on days when the power is on

All days without a Y in it.

[Jack Hackett]

All days without a Y in it.

We're ****ed :greengrin

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49387542

More money being wasted because the UK government have put us in this situation. What is the point? How is a no deal brexit going to improve my life?

Would it be better to make no preparations for what now appears to be the most likely scenario?

And it's not the UK government which has put us in this position, the UK parliament has - despite voting to trigger Article 50 by a massive majority, despite the fact Labour made a manifesto pledge to respect the result of the referendum and despite the fact there has been a soft Brexit deal on the table for the best part of a year.

It's all very well howling about a no deal Brexit, but it's clear that whatever sort of deal gets brought back to the Commons is going to get voted down by a cross section of MPs who have essentially decided they know better than the electorate which public votes should be respected.

The bottom line is there's never going to be a perfect deal - and even if there was, officially leaving the EU is only the start of the process. There's years of this to come as we would then have to start working out the terms of how we deal with the EU going forward.

May's deal may not have been popular but we won't find a better one and it's the narrow self interest of a cross section of MPs who refused to back it at any point which has put us in the position we're in now.

[Moulin Yarns]

Would it be better to make no preparations for what now appears to be the most likely scenario?

And it's not the UK government which has put us in this position, the UK parliament has - despite voting to trigger Article 50 by a massive majority, despite the fact Labour made a manifesto pledge to respect the result of the referendum and despite the fact there has been a soft Brexit deal on the table for the best part of a year.

It's all very well howling about a no deal Brexit, but it's clear that whatever sort of deal gets brought back to the Commons is going to get voted down by a cross section of MPs who have essentially decided they know better than the electorate which public votes should be respected.

The bottom line is there's never going to be a perfect deal - and even if there was, officially leaving the EU is only the start of the process. There's years of this to come as we would then have to start working out the terms of how we deal with the EU going forward.

May's deal may not have been popular but we won't find a better one and it's the narrow self interest of a cross section of MPs who refused to back it at any point which has put us in the position we're in now.

Whilst on the face of it you are correct I would argue that it all stems from the ****wit Cameron having the referendum in the first place.

[JeMeSouviens]

Would it be better to make no preparations for what now appears to be the most likely scenario?

And it's not the UK government which has put us in this position, the UK parliament has - despite voting to trigger Article 50 by a massive majority, despite the fact Labour made a manifesto pledge to respect the result of the referendum and despite the fact there has been a soft Brexit deal on the table for the best part of a year.

It's all very well howling about a no deal Brexit, but it's clear that whatever sort of deal gets brought back to the Commons is going to get voted down by a cross section of MPs who have essentially decided they know better than the electorate which public votes should be respected.

The bottom line is there's never going to be a perfect deal - and even if there was, officially leaving the EU is only the start of the process. There's years of this to come as we would then have to start working out the terms of how we deal with the EU going forward.

May's deal may not have been popular but we won't find a better one and it's the narrow self interest of a cross section of MPs who refused to back it at any point which has put us in the position we're in now.

The original meaning of the term soft Brexit was inside the single market and/or customs union. May’s deal is pretty hard (albeit it would be softened as long as an all UK backstop applied).

If we must have brexit then the only sensible compromise was an EEA style deal. Since they wouldn’t compromise, the blame falls squarely on the Tories if they can’t deliver on their own terms.

The whole thing is a monumentally self defeating cluster****.

[Mr Grieves]

Would it be better to make no preparations for what now appears to be the most likely scenario?

And it's not the UK government which has put us in this position, the UK parliament has - despite voting to trigger Article 50 by a massive majority, despite the fact Labour made a manifesto pledge to respect the result of the referendum and despite the fact there has been a soft Brexit deal on the table for the best part of a year.

It's all very well howling about a no deal Brexit, but it's clear that whatever sort of deal gets brought back to the Commons is going to get voted down by a cross section of MPs who have essentially decided they know better than the electorate which public votes should be respected.

The bottom line is there's never going to be a perfect deal - and even if there was, officially leaving the EU is only the start of the process. There's years of this to come as we would then have to start working out the terms of how we deal with the EU going forward.

May's deal may not have been popular but we won't find a better one and it's the narrow self interest of a cross section of MPs who refused to back it at any point which has put us in the position we're in now.

I'll try to keep this short -

1. May's deal was never a soft brexit.

2.The UK government are responsible for this mess because
a) David Cameron is a complete and utter fanny for starting this cluster****
b) Teresa May backed herself into a corner by setting red lines, meaning there was absolutely no flexibility to get a deal through parliament.
c) Boris Johnson has set us on a course that will at best make the UK poorer. And at worst make us poorer, have food shortages, have people dying because of delayed access to medicine, unable to disinfect drinking water, civil unrest and the army on the streets, loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs, culling of livestock, decimation of manufacturing and agriculture, and so on. Even if we're somewhere between best and worst case scenario, it would be a clear dereliction of duty by Johnson and his cabinet to decide to go down that route.

3. We're spending billions of pounds to prepare for something that will make us poorer, which is insane.

4.I'm gonna keep howling :greengrin

Now, has anybody that supports brexit come up with any positives from leaving the EU without a deal? Surely there's something that makes it worth taking all these risks contained in the government report?

[mjhibby]

Whilst on the face of it you are correct I would argue that it all stems from the ****wit Cameron having the referendum in the first place.

Exactly. They never thought that the voters would actually vote to leave and now we have had three years of Westminster not having a clue how to sort the mess Cameron left. Every side is using brexit to their own ends and it seems they don't give a toss how the voters are affected. The most depressing time in politics in living memory.

[mjhibby]

Project fear

Then when it happens - EUs fault

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

So predictable. When loads of Independent experts say the brown stuff will hit the fan then trump lover Johnson hits the fake news button. Just as in the US where loads of trump's fake news has been accurate then this seems all too real. The delays in the lorries are inevitable and unless the govt employs thousands of staff,which they won't,to speed up the process then chaos will ensue. Don't think many of the leave voters voted for this. It's ableeping omnishambles of the highest order.

[G B Young]

Whilst on the face of it you are correct I would argue that it all stems from the ****wit Cameron having the referendum in the first place.

Agreed. He'd likely still be PM today if he hadn't set the ball rolling on this six years ago.

Mind you he can't possibly have expected it all to end up the way it has. He made the pledge of a referendum with a view to appeasing the Eurosceptics, diluting the growing momentum UKIP had back then (hard to credit now but they won the third biggest share of the vote in the 2015 election) and renegotiating the UK's deal with the EU. He must have been quietly confident of a no vote - as indeed it seemed the majority of the electorate were right up until polling day. I was almost as stunned when I woke up to discover the yes vote had won as I was when I discovered Trump had become US president.

[G B Young]

Exactly. They never thought that the voters would actually vote to leave and now we have had three years of Westminster not having a clue how to sort the mess Cameron left. Every side is using brexit to their own ends and it seems they don't give a toss how the voters are affected. The most depressing time in politics in living memory.

Spot on.

[GreenLake]

We heard a story from some English folk that UK passport holders were sent to a separate line entering Italy a few weeks ago. I wonder if there are any other examples of British passports being treated differently in Europe.

Disclaimer: I am against Brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

We heard a story from some English folk that UK passport holders were sent to a separate line entering Italy a few weeks ago. I wonder if there are any other examples of British passports being treated differently in Europe.

Disclaimer: I am against Brexit.

Brits have always been asked to stand in a different line because we didn't sign up to Schengen.

Might just be Italy gearing up for a no deal Brexit and getting some otj training done.

[Moulin Yarns]

No.10 gets it's retaliation in early

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49393556

[wpj]

Bang on cue

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/john-redwood-dismisses-leaked-no-brexit-report/

"Just because it comes from a Cabinet Office doesn't mean we have to believe them"

Well, I never do. What a tool

[GreenLake]

Brits have always been asked to stand in a different line because we didn't sign up to Schengen.

Might just be Italy gearing up for a no deal Brexit and getting some otj training done.

I'm often Schengen when I'm pissed.

I see Farage has been posing with his EU less passport. I bet half of the Brexiteers don't even own a passport. Not needed to go to the highlands in a caravan. At least not yet.

[Northernhibee]

I'm often Schengen when I'm pissed.

I see Farage has been posing with his EU less passport. I bet half of the Brexiteers don't even own a passport. Not needed to go to the highlands in a caravan. At least not yet.

Will his children and wife be posing with their EU passports they applied for?

[GreenLake]

Will his children and wife be posing with their EU passports they applied for?

I think his kids have German and UK passports so they will retain free movement in Europe.

[Sylar]

I'm now starting to feel the impacts of this on a professional level.

I had a PhD student lined up to start in October this year - she was German, and she's since dropped out because of the uncertainty around what happens post-October 31st.

We were also just rejected for a Horizon 2020 bid because of the same uncertainty (unofficial feedback comments).

I'm ready to break some windows.

[Callum_62]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49411786

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49405270

[Jack Hackett]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49411786

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49405270

I'd love to play poker with the upper class twit. Trying to play the EU with a busted flush and see through cards. He's like a big f***ing kid, and he's the leader of the country ffs!

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49411786

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49405270

It's fine though, the bairns can all sing God save the queen before registration, courtesy of the Scottish Tories.

[lord bunberry]

Can someone explain to me why there will be fuel shortages after a no deal brexit? Surely the oil comes from this country and is refined in this country.

[ballengeich]

Can someone explain to me why there will be fuel shortages after a no deal brexit? Surely the oil comes from this country and is refined in this country.

From what I've read we we've been net importers since 2013. There are different types of oil, so even if we were net exporters on balance we'd have to import some, because the oil from our own territory isn't suitable for all uses.

[lord bunberry]

From what I've read we we've been net importers since 2013. There are different types of oil, so even if we were net exporters on balance we'd have to import some, because the oil from our own territory isn't suitable for all uses.
Thanks. I just couldn’t understand what they were on about :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Can someone explain to me why there will be fuel shortages after a no deal brexit? Surely the oil comes from this country and is refined in this country.

We're an oil rich country in brent crude. But brent crude doesn't serve every purpose where oil is concerned.

[Andy Bee]

We refine 400,000 barrels of fuel a day, 30% of that is exported but I suppose the shortage scaremongering comes from London and the S/E importing fuel from the Amsterdam/Rotterdam hub because it's cheaper/easier than sourcing it from Grangemouth.

[RyeSloan]

We're an oil rich country in brent crude. But brent crude doesn't serve every purpose where oil is concerned.

No but it is ideal for the production of petroleum products.

Any Brexit related fuel issues will much more likely be due to refinery output rather than the actual oil.

Essentially Britain is a large exporter of petrol but an even larger importer of diesel. This is largely the legacy of the hair brained scheme to get people to drive diesels which reduced the share of petrol for transport by about a third in relatively short order.

The economics of the refinery business in the UK effectively meant is was cheaper to close the refineries and import the diesel rather than pay the money to change their output / use.

As a result at least half of the UK diesel need is meant by imports and half of that comes from the EU.

[G B Young]

Corbyn more divisive than Johnson (you use the affectionate "Boris")? Really? And who cares, if him being in charge convinces the big boys in this debate, the EU, to give us more time to extract ourselves from this clusterflip? Because, what seems to be being overlooked in all this UK navel gazing is that it's not in our gift to avoid a no deal brexit by calling a general election, yadah, yadah. We are out on 31/10.

Get Corbyn in. Show the EU there's been a seismic change. We MIGHT get more time to sort it out. Swinson is trying to break the Labour Party when she should only have one target - stop Brexit. She is a Tory-enabling charlatan.

Jeremy re-affirms his Brexiteer credentials.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49405423

It makes you wonder why so little progress was made during those useless Tory/Labour cross-party talks in the dying days of May's tenure. One can only assume Corbyn wants to be the PM to deliver Brexit so couldn't countenance backing a perceived Tory deal.

[JeMeSouviens]

Jeremy re-affirms his Brexiteer credentials.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49405423

It makes you wonder why so little progress was made during those useless Tory/Labour cross-party talks in the dying days of May's tenure. One can only assume Corbyn wants to be the PM to deliver Brexit so couldn't countenance backing a perceived Tory deal.

Actually I think Corbyn wanted someone else to deliver Brexit while he kept his hands clean.

[Smartie]

Actually I think Corbyn wanted someone else to deliver Brexit while he kept his hands clean.

The Labour and Conservative parties normally have their best public endorsement and freest reign to implement their policies when the other side has managed to make a total Horlicks of things.

If it didn't seem all dithery, snidey and uncommitted, you might argue that it is a half decent approach, if not quite a "mon Scottish Labour esque" master plan.

[G B Young]

National treasure Sir David Attenborough appears to be a Brexiteer:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/21/david-attenborough-blasts-silly-squabbles-brexit-saying-uk-fed-eu-10604687/

We don't like being told how much to charge for tomatoes apparently (shades of that Yes Minister episode about Europe trying to rename the good old British banger...).

I'd have had him down as more of a hands across the ocean sort, but maybe Boris Johnson should get him on board to soothe tensions.

[JeMeSouviens]

National treasure Sir David Attenborough appears to be a Brexiteer:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/21/david-attenborough-blasts-silly-squabbles-brexit-saying-uk-fed-eu-10604687/

We don't like being told how much to charge for tomatoes apparently (shades of that Yes Minister episode about Europe trying to rename the good old British banger...).

I'd have had him down as more of a hands across the ocean sort, but maybe Boris Johnson should get him on board to soothe tensions.

Most of the "silly stories" he talks about turn out to be made up nonsense when actually investigated.

And a lot of them originate from one Boris Johnson, formerly Brussels correspondent of the Torygraph. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

We refine 400,000 barrels of fuel a day, 30% of that is exported but I suppose the shortage scaremongering comes from London and the S/E importing fuel from the Amsterdam/Rotterdam hub because it's cheaper/easier than sourcing it from Grangemouth.

I remember the last time there was a fuel shortage (1980s) and the filling station closest to the oil refinery in Grangemouth was the last to get any. Bloody frustrating :grr:

[southsider]

The latest Boris brainwave is just too unbelievable for words. Eire to leave the EU , join the UK in Brexit. They do rather well under the EU but are going to join up with a London Government they spent 300 years trying to get free from. You just could not make it up.

[Kato]

The latest Boris brainwave is just too unbelievable for words. Eire to leave the EU , join the UK in Brexit. They do rather well under the EU but are going to join up with a London Government they spent 300 years trying to get free from. You just could not make it up.

He knows that. They are just footering around killing time until Halloween.

[Fife-Hibee]

Jo Swinson has put together her A Team to halt brexit...

A team including Willie Rennie, Alistair Carmichael and Chuka Umunna.
https://www.libdems.org.uk/shadcab19

No i'm not joking....

[Glory Lurker]

Jeremy re-affirms his Brexiteer credentials.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49405423

It makes you wonder why so little progress was made during those useless Tory/Labour cross-party talks in the dying days of May's tenure. One can only assume Corbyn wants to be the PM to deliver Brexit so couldn't countenance backing a perceived Tory deal.

He's saying he won't necessarily support remain in a second referendum. It doesn't change the plan to out Johnston, and as replacement PM call a GE in which there is pretty much guaranteed to be a majority for a second referendum.

I'm not sure what Jo Swinson thinks could be achieved otherwise before 31 October (n.b. I'm not saying GE could take place before then - my original point is that a GE being called in these circumstances might persuade EU to give us more time)

[G B Young]

Merkel offers a chink of light to the PM:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674

[Glory Lurker]

Merkel offers a chink of light to the PM:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674

An interesting one. An EU blink?

[CloudSquall]

From the little I've read Germany is now struggling to fend off a possible recession, quite possible that Germany may blink to avoid further pressure on the economy.

[lapsedhibee]

An interesting one. An EU blink?


From the little I've read Germany is now struggling to fend off a possible recession, quite possible that Germany may blink to avoid further pressure on the economy.

I don't see any blinking at all. They're saying the same things they've been saying for months, basically What Is Your Alternative Plan?

[lapsedhibee]

The latest Boris brainwave is just too unbelievable for words. Eire to leave the EU , join the UK in Brexit. They do rather well under the EU but are going to join up with a London Government they spent 300 years trying to get free from. You just could not make it up.

Stolen from Kate Hoey, I think, that one. That's been her solution to the border problem for a long time. She may have stolen it from someone else.

[Moulin Yarns]

New ferry from Holland to Rosyth

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands

[Fife-Hibee]

New ferry from Holland to Rosyth

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands

Hopefully a method of getting some much needed 'medical' supplies after brexit.:smokin

[xyz23jc]

Hopefully a method of getting some much needed 'medical' supplies after brexit.:smokin


I'm in....! :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

I don't see any blinking at all. They're saying the same things they've been saying for months, basically What Is Your Alternative Plan?

Yes, I agree. It was splashed as being blink-like, but later reports have shown that it wasn't.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, I agree. It was splashed as being blink-like, but later reports have shown that it wasn't.

The UK were given an extension to the withdrawal period until the 31st of October, Merkel said that if a better solution can be found before then, then great. No change in policy there, just stating the obvious.

[ronaldo7]

The UK were given an extension to the withdrawal period until the 31st of October, Merkel said that if a better solution can be found before then, then great. No change in policy there, just stating the obvious.

She played him, but you wouldn't think so looking at the English press.

[Lendo]

Macron saying that A50 can be revoked right up to the last possible minute. Please for the love of god, let them see sense.

[ACLeith]

Macron saying that A50 can be revoked right up to the last possible minute. Please for the love of god, let them see sense.

But, but, but ...... will of the people, democracy etc etc. The backstop is "undemocratic" says our unelected PM.

[Colr]

What’s the betting that the last minute compromise will be the ‘border in the Irish Sea followed by a swift election which the Tories win meaning they can tell the DUP to GTF?