Brexit - What Now.

[grunt]

Reported. (Vilification.)
Guilty as charged. Deport me (and my family) to the EU. Cyprus is nice, I wouldn't mind living there.

[grunt]

David Davis said there would be no downsides to Brexit, only considerable upsides.

696 documented downsides to Brexit. (21 documented upsides, including crowns on pint glasses).

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/regular-features/the-davis-downside-dossier/

[Stairway 2 7]

Deary deary me

@afneil
·
Some truly dire predictions from Bank of England. Five consecutive quarters of economic decline with GDP falling over 2%. Inflation heading for 13%. Stagflation red in tooth and claw.

[Stairway 2 7]

Could go in the Tory thread or energy. But I'll stick it here as we chose to make it worse with Brexit

Bank of England raises interest rates by 0.5% to 1.75%, biggest rise in 25 years,

Bank of England predicts that dual fuel energy bill on average will reach £3500, just under £300 a month this winter, treble the level a year earlier...

Bank of England predicts inflation will still now be above 9% in a year’s time

If correct these predictions would upend the fiscal numbers upon which the entire prime ministerial debate has been had, easily wiping out (probably multiples of) the £30bn fiscal headroom

[Scorrie]

Deary deary me

@afneil
·
Some truly dire predictions from Bank of England. Five consecutive quarters of economic decline with GDP falling over 2%. Inflation heading for 13%. Stagflation red in tooth and claw.

Thank god we avoided coalition of chaos under Miliband !

[Stairway 2 7]

And Sunak whose been responsible for this is trying to be leader 🙄

[Bostonhibby]

And Sunak whose been responsible for this is trying to be leader [emoji849]Truss will probably do better if someone gets her one of those Casio calculator thingy's.

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[Bristolhibby]

Thank god we avoided coalition of chaos under Miliband !

Just learn to eat a bacon sandwich properly!

What a way to lose an election.

He would have been brilliant BTW.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Could go in the Tory thread or energy. But I'll stick it here as we chose to make it worse with Brexit

Bank of England raises interest rates by 0.5% to 1.75%, biggest rise in 25 years,

Bank of England predicts that dual fuel energy bill on average will reach £3500, just under £300 a month this winter, treble the level a year earlier...

Bank of England predicts inflation will still now be above 9% in a year’s time

If correct these predictions would upend the fiscal numbers upon which the entire prime ministerial debate has been had, easily wiping out (probably multiples of) the £30bn fiscal headroom

BoE inflation forecast 13% peak and 9% next year. ECB 7.6% and 4%.

Think this thread is as good a place as any. :rolleyes:

We're about to have the biggest fall in living standards since we started measuring it in the 60s apparently.

[Stairway 2 7]

BoE inflation forecast 13% peak and 9% next year. ECB 7.6% and 4%.

Think this thread is as good a place as any. :rolleyes:

We're about to have the biggest fall in living standards since we started measuring it in the 60s apparently.

Ecb just hit 8.6 and will rise and stay high it seems, everything is getting revised up by the day.

Brexit probably accounts for 1-2% of it which is a self inflicted kick in the teeth. The biggest reason for inflation is energy costs and covid. Lockdown whilst needed obviously had worldwide effects on supply that will be felt for years.
26076

It's going to be grimm. Like the early 90s without the good music

[Stairway 2 7]

@Peston
·

The Bank of England is forecasting unemployment will rise from 3.7% roughly now to 6.3% in three years. This is one measure of the huge cost of the inflationary shock

[Ozyhibby]

@Peston
·

The Bank of England is forecasting unemployment will rise from 3.7% roughly now to 6.3% in three years. This is one measure of the huge cost of the inflationary shock

I think we are about sick of experts in this country.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Problem is truss is going to come in recession is baked in as is inflation. When the election comes inflation is estimated to be down to 1% and economy growing. She's going to say some pish about yes it was hard but we got through it.

@samueltombs
Even its 3yr ahead inflation forecast, if Bank Rate stays at 1.75%, is just 1.3%. Together, these projections imply the neutral level in its model is around 1%. Suggests there could be significant rate cuts later next year, once the energy price shock has fully fed through

[Hibrandenburg]

Ecb just hit 8.6 and will rise and stay high it seems, everything is getting revised up by the day.

Brexit probably accounts for 1-2% of it which is a self inflicted kick in the teeth. The biggest reason for inflation is energy costs and covid. Lockdown whilst needed obviously had worldwide effects on supply that will be felt for years.
26076

It's going to be grimm. Like the early 90s without the good music

I think you're being optimistic, it's going to get 70's grimm at least.

[grunt]

It's going to be grimm. Like the early 90s without the good music


I think you're being optimistic, it's going to get 70's grimm at least.

At least the 70s had the better music. :stirrer:

[Stairway 2 7]

Hard times usually leads to good music. We'll really struggle if we have to go through this with Harry styles and Ed shearing

[Jack]

Problem is truss is going to come in recession is baked in as is inflation. When the election comes inflation is estimated to be down to 1% and economy growing. She's going to say some pish about yes it was hard but we got through it.

@samueltombs
Even its 3yr ahead inflation forecast, if Bank Rate stays at 1.75%, is just 1.3%. Together, these projections imply the neutral level in its model is around 1%. Suggests there could be significant rate cuts later next year, once the energy price shock has fully fed through

I know there's little point in discussing anything with you however I'd just point out that no-one predicted where we'd be today a year ago so 3 years down the line is a bit airy fairy at best.

Feel free to link to other pie in the sky stuff - as I'm sure you will.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know there's little point in discussing anything with you however I'd just point out that no-one predicted where we'd be today a year ago so 3 years down the line is a bit airy fairy at best.

Feel free to link to other pie in the sky stuff - as I'm sure you will.

Why be so rude then say pretty much nothing as per. Its from the bank of England report today we've all been talking about. You should read it and discuss, or don't I'm not really bothered. It's a prediction it will change but it's grimm

As for the person who's tweet I put up , here's his blurb. Chief U.K. Economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics. Ranked most accurate forecaster of the U.K. economy by Bloomberg in 2021

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/brexit-delays-hit-scottish-salmon-exports/

Brexit is killing Scottish Salmon industry.


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[grunt]

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/brexit-delays-hit-scottish-salmon-exports/

Brexit is killing Scottish Salmon industry.

We need a direct sea route to the EU from Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

We need a direct sea route to the EU from Scotland.

Can the salmon not find their own way?

[grunt]

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/brexit-delays-hit-scottish-salmon-exports/

Brexit is killing Scottish Salmon industry.


Completely bypassing the United Kingdom, the Republic of #Ireland (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ireland?src=hashtag_click) has added 43 new shipping routes to handle and process their exports - which have now risen to an all-time record.Now try to tell #Scotland (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Scotland?src=hashtag_click) that they can’t do precisely the same. #IndyRef (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IndyRef?src=hashtag_click).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZoWQmGXgAEKFRs?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ozyhibby]

Completely bypassing the United Kingdom, the Republic of #Ireland (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ireland?src=hashtag_click) has added 43 new shipping routes to handle and process their exports - which have now risen to an all-time record.Now try to tell #Scotland (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Scotland?src=hashtag_click) that they can’t do precisely the same. #IndyRef (https://twitter.com/hashtag/IndyRef?src=hashtag_click).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZoWQmGXgAEKFRs?format=jpg&name=medium

It’s almost like Ireland make decisions based on what’s best for them?


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[Bostonhibby]

It’s almost like Ireland make decisions based on what’s best for them?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow can they possibly be thriving when we are in an increasingly downward balance of trade deficit and escalating inflation?

I'm not sure having crowns on pint glasses that no one can afford to fill adequately offsets that to be honest.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Rishis new brexit video is excruciating, what a tit

https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1556593752633999362

[Bostonhibby]

Rishis new brexit video is excruciating, what a tit

https://mobile.twitter.com/henrymance/status/1556593752633999362Jeez, if he is really getting that desperate / abstract, why doesn't he just promise to confiscate the wealth of everyone who isn't one of the few who are going to undemocratically pick our next PM, then put the rest of us to work in the fracking industry or as slaves to party members?

That should deliver him a majority.

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[grunt]

So, how is Brexit going?
For instance, how much have UK exports grown over the last three years, compared with other major countries?
Not so well, it seems

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZojmdaXkAAgxDW?format=png&name=900x900

[Hibernia&Alba]

Financial cost of Brexit over the next decade will be circa 178 times its benefits. It is estimated it will cost every man, woman and child £1250 whilst the gain to each person will be £3 - £7


https://youtu.be/feTAP1n_s0M

[Ozyhibby]

And our Gas prices are 5 times what they are in the EU. Still, who cares about gas prices?


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[Moulin Yarns]

And our Gas prices are 5 times what they are in the EU. Still, who cares about gas prices?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me! I'm all electric. But still, for some reason my 100% renewables electricity tariff is going up because of the gas prices 🙄

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/298372255_450184356978922_6752619088588172004_n.jp g?stp=cp1_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=hKHymsUmyqgAX_ilsay&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8ODGBRNkfKtAi1V1eLmypDkCbqB4xLXX_oizgPEab3 FQ&oe=62F97AE6

[Moulin Yarns]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/298372255_450184356978922_6752619088588172004_n.jp g?stp=cp1_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=hKHymsUmyqgAX_ilsay&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8ODGBRNkfKtAi1V1eLmypDkCbqB4xLXX_oizgPEab3 FQ&oe=62F97AE6

👍😂😂😂

[cabbageandribs1875]

��������


possibly one of those 'parody' accounts..........i'm leaving it to the parody detectives to decide :greengrin

either way it DOES have over 16k 'likes'

[grunt]

possibly one of those 'parody' accounts..........i'm leaving it to the parody detectives to decide :greengrin

either way it DOES have over 16k 'likes'
It's an account parodying Sophie Corcoran - GBNews "journalist", Brexidiot, climate change denier.

[lapsedhibee]

It's an account parodying Sophie Corcoran - GBNews "journalist", Brexidiot, climate change denier.

Never been entirely convinced that the Corcoran account and character aren't themselves parody, or satire, or something not real.

[Moulin Yarns]

possibly one of those 'parody' accounts..........i'm leaving it to the parody detectives to decide :greengrin

either way it DOES have over 16k 'likes'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum

😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/15/number-eu-citizens-moving-to-uk-plunged-post-brexit-report?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1660518427

Scotland worst hit by fall in EU migration.


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[hibby rae]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/15/number-eu-citizens-moving-to-uk-plunged-post-brexit-report?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1660518427

Scotland worst hit by fall in EU migration.


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Not a surprise, historically Scotland has always relied on immigration. Which explains my Irish surname.

[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/15/number-eu-citizens-moving-to-uk-plunged-post-brexit-report?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1660518427

Scotland worst hit by fall in EU migration.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSome posters have questioned what the end game for this Tory Govt is, why wreck things so much, why are they running services down so much.

Here are a couple of articles. One, reasonably long, from Alistair Campbell and one, pre-Brexit, from the Tax Payers Alliance.

Seems like Rees-Moggs Dad's book "The Sovereign Individual" is the playbook. Low Tax areas, chunks of the country hived off, no workers rights, no welfare, no workers rights, no help for the poor or disabled.

Dystopian in favour of the already rich. The Campbell piece works as a pretty good synopsis for "The Sovereign Individual". Scarily accurate in its predictions of the then future.


https://alastaircampbell.org/2020/12/the-brexit-revolutionaries-have-barely-begun-britain-needs-to-wake-up-fast/

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0

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[grunt]

Dystopian in favour of the already rich. The Campbell piece works as a pretty good synopsis for "The Sovereign Individual". Scarily accurate in its predictions of the then future.


https://alastaircampbell.org/2020/12/the-brexit-revolutionaries-have-barely-begun-britain-needs-to-wake-up-fast/


Scary.

[Colr]

Some posters have questioned what the end game for this Tory Govt is, why wreck things so much, why are they running services down so much.

Here are a couple of articles. One, reasonably long, from Alistair Campbell and one, pre-Brexit, from the Tax Payers Alliance.

Seems like Rees-Moggs Dad's book "The Sovereign Individual" is the playbook. Low Tax areas, chunks of the country hived off, no workers rights, no welfare, no workers rights, no help for the poor or disabled.

Dystopian in favour of the already rich. The Campbell piece works as a pretty good synopsis for "The Sovereign Individual". Scarily accurate in its predictions of the then future.


https://alastaircampbell.org/2020/12/the-brexit-revolutionaries-have-barely-begun-britain-needs-to-wake-up-fast/

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0

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I read The Sovereign Individual a few years back but the other reference is 2013s Britannia Unchanged written by Patel, Truss, Kwartang, etc.. who come across as the nasty little bunch of ****s then that we now see in power over us….except Raab who just comes across as thick.

[Kato]

Scary....and happening now.

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[Kato]

I read The Sovereign Individual a few years back but the other reference is 2013s Britannia Unchanged written by Patel, Truss, Kwartang, etc.. who come across as the nasty little bunch of ****s then that we now see in power over us….except Raab who just comes across as thick.That comes across as part of that blueprint, agreed.

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[Bostonhibby]

Some posters have questioned what the end game for this Tory Govt is, why wreck things so much, why are they running services down so much.

Here are a couple of articles. One, reasonably long, from Alistair Campbell and one, pre-Brexit, from the Tax Payers Alliance.

Seems like Rees-Moggs Dad's book "The Sovereign Individual" is the playbook. Low Tax areas, chunks of the country hived off, no workers rights, no welfare, no workers rights, no help for the poor or disabled.

Dystopian in favour of the already rich. The Campbell piece works as a pretty good synopsis for "The Sovereign Individual". Scarily accurate in its predictions of the then future.


https://alastaircampbell.org/2020/12/the-brexit-revolutionaries-have-barely-begun-britain-needs-to-wake-up-fast/

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkComing to a country near you soon.

In many areas already happening whilst the masses are distracted with flag waving and our leader posturing on the world stage.

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[lapsedhibee]

Coming to a country near you soon.

In many areas already happening whilst the masses are distracted with flag waving and our leader posturing on the world stage.


Hardly posturing on the world stage, unless you count wandering round a Greek supermarket being told by a fellow holidaymaker to #getbacktoworkyoufatponce.

[Colr]

That comes across as part of that blueprint, agreed.

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Patel made it quite clear that workers rights in the UK should be akin to those in Indian and Chinese sweatshops. That’s the plan.

[Ozyhibby]

https://planetradio.co.uk/clyde/local/news/scottish-salmon-industry-labour-shortages/

Scottish business struggling.


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[Bostonhibby]

Hardly posturing on the world stage, unless you count wandering round a Greek supermarket being told by a fellow holidaymaker to #getbacktoworkyoufatponce.He was hyped as singlehandedly taking on Putin and being hero worshipped for it through his many photo opportunities but I guess that all changed when he was no longer going to be the nasties front man.



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[Stairway 2 7]

@RichardGCorbett
·
In the latest polls, 58% now say it was wrong for Britain to leave the EU, 60% say Brexit is going badly and 53% support rejoining the EU immediately.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i

[grunt]

@RichardGCorbett
·
In the latest polls, 58% now say it was wrong for Britain to leave the EU, 60% say Brexit is going badly and 53% support rejoining the EU immediately.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i
Too late.

[grunt]

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/trade-figures-for-brexit-and-britain-disaster/


It has found that all advanced economies suffered the same collapse of trade during Covid but that the UK has missed out on much of the rebound. All advanced economies’ trade fell by 20% during the first wave of the pandemic, but by the end of last year, while the average advanced economies trade was 3% higher than before Covid, the UK’s remained 12% below. The UK’s trade as a percentage of GDP has collapsed – it is down two and a half times more than other similar countries.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/Artboard-1%4033.33x-1-1024x579.png

[hibsbollah]

@RichardGCorbett
·
In the latest polls, 58% now say it was wrong for Britain to leave the EU, 60% say Brexit is going badly and 53% support rejoining the EU immediately.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i

But Ref2 is off the agenda for the Labour Party. The policy is to continue to apply lipstick to a pig. As in so many cases, one voter seems to be more important than another kind of voter.

[Colr]

@RichardGCorbett
·
In the latest polls, 58% now say it was wrong for Britain to leave the EU, 60% say Brexit is going badly and 53% support rejoining the EU immediately.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i

Why would they have us back? Why? De Gaulle was against UK joining in the first place.

[Colr]

But Ref2 is off the agenda for the Labour Party. The policy is to continue to apply lipstick to a pig. As in so many cases, one voter seems to be more important than another kind of voter.

The One Nation tories were purged in 2019.

[hibsbollah]

The One Nation tories were purged in 2019.

That is true. Not sure how it relates to my post though:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

The racists never voted for this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-immigration-conservative-mp-neil-o-brien-london-b1018568.html

Immigration has increased since Brexit, admits Tory MP

[grunt]

The racists never voted for this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-immigration-conservative-mp-neil-o-brien-london-b1018568.html

Immigration has increased since Brexit, admits Tory MP

Oops.

Number 22,034 in the list of "this isn't the Brexit I voted for".


But Mr O’Brien said the UK was now seeing more immigration from “poorer” countries, rather than European areas or Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia.

“The same very high immigration, but more from poorer countries wasn’t what people wanted from Brexit,” he said.

[Stairway 2 7]

Oops.

Number 22,034 in the list of "this isn't the Brexit I voted for".

And whisper it but alot are black too. Big Clive wanted his country back, not all these hardworking people with beautiful food and culture

[Just Alf]

And whisper it but alot are black too. Big Clive wanted his country back, not all these hardworking people with beautiful food and cultureMy office has begun encountering a new recruitment issue, compared to preBrexit many more of our new employees from abroad have much further to go before they're fully proficient in both written and oral English.

Previously the foreign nationals in the building were the ones with the best spoken English :greengrin

[grunt]

https://centralbylines.co.uk/the-loss-of-freedom-of-movement-has-detonated-the-uks-demographic-time-bomb/


The growing labour and skill shortages across the economy of the UK are fundamentally down to the explosion of our demographic time bomb (https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-becoming-demographic-time-bombs-2017-8?r=US&IR=T%23hong-kong-1). The UK has an ageing population with an ageing, shrinking, domestic workforce and – just as importantly – an ageing, shrinking, domestic-business-owning class. More people are retiring from the UK labour market (https://jodatu.wordpress.com/2021/08/31/the-uk-labour-market-is-not-a-single-unitary-labour-market-discuss/) at one end than are entering it at the other.

Freedom of Movement mostly defused the UK’s demographic time bomb but Boris Johnson’s hard Brexit (endorsed by Keir Starmer’s Labour) re-armed the bomb and it has now exploded.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BenGartside/status/1559576138380361728

BenGartside
Exc: The Government's post-Brexit reforms to cut red tape face civil service backlash – for creating more red tape.

Government minutes reveal plans to review policies within two years amid "pushback" over the proposals, which were described as a burden

[Hibrandenburg]

My office has begun encountering a new recruitment issue, compared to preBrexit many more of our new employees from abroad have much further to go before they're fully proficient in both written and oral English.

Previously the foreign nationals in the building were the ones with the best spoken English :greengrin

I used to recruit for an airline and the first hurdles on assessment day were basic English and Maths tests, anyone failing either would be eliminated from the process. The percentage of UK born citizens failing these tests was near 50% as opposed to foreign applicants where only around 15% were sent home after the first stage. Recruitment for Gatwick was particularly bad, so much so that they eventually widened the goal posts for candidates.

[Just Alf]

I used to recruit for an airline and the first hurdles on assessment day were basic English and Maths tests, anyone failing either would be eliminated from the process. The percentage of UK born citizens failing these tests was near 50% as opposed to foreign applicants where only around 15% were sent home after the first stage. Recruitment for Gatwick was particularly bad, so much so that they eventually widened the goal posts for candidates.Crazy!

[Kato]

From four years ago but still apt. Some foreigners dispassionately discussing the trends and predictions for the post brexit UK.

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1560372452160593921?t=XiH-xAE9fh4-BoPKjipxfA&s=19

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[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9YF0UrXEAUIgjI?format=jpg&name=900x900

[ronaldo7]

Great to see this.

Support for rejoining the EU is soaring among Scottish voters, a poll shows.

A new Panelbase survey has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain, while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January.

Those opposed to Brexit are more inclined to back independence.

[grunt]

A new Panelbase survey has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain, while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January.

Those opposed to Brexit are more inclined to back independence.
Good news (you'll notice I'm back to believing in polls again :greengrin) but I can't understand the 3% who would vote Remain but wouldn't vote to Rejoin?

[JeMeSouviens]

Good news (you'll notice I'm back to believing in polls again :greengrin) but I can't understand the 3% who would vote Remain but wouldn't vote to Rejoin?

People who haven't changed their minds about what was the right thing to do but believe we've got to live with the consequences of the vote?

[grunt]

People who haven't changed their minds about what was the right thing to do but believe we've got to live with the consequences of the vote?
Well for one thing some people have changed their mind since the percentages have changed. And secondly if you now know what is the right thing to do why would you not want to do it?

I'm just spaffing, but this whole "and now we've got to live with it" gets on my nerves. It was the wrong thing to do, we now know it was the wrong thing to do, why on Earth would we not change it? If you take the wrong turn when driving in the country and you realise you're going the wrong way, do you continue going the wrong way or do you turn round?

[lapsedhibee]

Well for one thing some people have changed their mind since the percentages have changed. And secondly if you now know what is the right thing to do why would you not want to do it?

I'm just spaffing, but this whole "and now we've got to live with it" gets on my nerves. It was the wrong thing to do, we now know it was the wrong thing to do, why on Earth would we not change it? If you take the wrong turn when driving in the country and you realise you're going the wrong way, do you continue going the wrong way or do you turn round?

Shirley you have to keep driving for a generation before you can decide which?

[Stairway 2 7]

Shirley you have to keep driving for a generation before you can decide which?

What if it's applied to post independence. I'm sure we'll be financially worse of for a few years post independence. I am hopeful but also believe that will change after that and we'll be able to kick on financially.

The press will be in overdrive post independence highlighting every negative, what if the polls show a majority would rejoin. When would be OK for another election.

[grunt]

When would be OK for another election.
Oh that's an easy one! I know!! I know!!

[Just Alf]

What if it's applied to post independence. I'm sure we'll be financially worse of for a few years post independence. I am hopeful but also believe that will change after that and we'll be able to kick on financially.

The press will be in overdrive post independence highlighting every negative, what if the polls show a majority would rejoin. When would be OK for another election.It would surely need to be a generation... say 20 years?


:greengrin


On a serious note though, as per the current conversation around an independence referendum, if a party standing on a ticket that included a 'rejoin' referendum won a Scottish Government election then they've been given the permission of the electorate to arrange one.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well for one thing some people have changed their mind since the percentages have changed. And secondly if you now know what is the right thing to do why would you not want to do it?

I'm just spaffing, but this whole "and now we've got to live with it" gets on my nerves. It was the wrong thing to do, we now know it was the wrong thing to do, why on Earth would we not change it? If you take the wrong turn when driving in the country and you realise you're going the wrong way, do you continue going the wrong way or do you turn round?

Yeah, I know, I was taking a guess at the 3% difference, not trying to generalise beyond them. I think even the diehard Leavers realise it was a completely pish idea now, they're just too stubborn to say it out loud.

I don't think the EU would particularly welcome the UK back, btw. Well, certainly not the divided, bitter, raging UK of the moment.

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, I know, I was taking a guess at the 3% difference, not trying to generalise beyond them. I think even the diehard Leavers realise it was a completely pish idea now, they're just too stubborn to say it out loud.

I don't think the EU would particularly welcome the UK back, btw. Well, certainly not the divided, bitter, raging UK of the moment.

I agree. There is no way back in for the UK for at least 30 years. And when they do go back in, and I’m sure they will, it will be on the EU’s terms.
Scotland could be back in within 5 years if we want it enough.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

remember wee mikey gove said brexit meant the uk would be an environmental leader (1) UK is with EU on Twitter: "Marr: Are you absolutely clear that our environmental standards will not be loosened by leaving the EU? Gove: Yes, we can have a green brexit that ensures Britain is an environmental leader 2016 #BrexitLies #TorySewageParty https://t.co/iRPujCMTBF" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ukiswitheu/status/1562077622569504769?fbclid=IwAR147b8YYuiNJ9CIjMA-Siq8ObkemBPAMq_t7Yqm9t_h4GAgqEOC8TqrXac)

even the princess told us..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa0rtlmXoAA5LFT?format=jpg&name=small
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/300636973_5286267854822780_7172768024557146846_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=oehQMNw8KY0AX98TFmV&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9ERQCoNDL8lM5_Xk2kS_2NfSvZke1bGJ1vnRtd5ccp Eg&oe=630976ED

[Callum_62]

Great to see this.

Support for rejoining the EU is soaring among Scottish voters, a poll shows.

A new Panelbase survey has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain, while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January.

Those opposed to Brexit are more inclined to back independence.Nearly 70 percent?

That's significantly above the magic made up number needed got a referendum on the subject

Get it done

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/alextaylornews/status/1562509011865325571?s=21&t=ZqoW0OfUw-KNifqlRzgjJQ

Another clip from Maitlis speech last night. It really was impressive and I have a new found respect for her.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

remember wee mikey gove said brexit meant the uk would be an environmental leader (1) UK is with EU on Twitter: "Marr: Are you absolutely clear that our environmental standards will not be loosened by leaving the EU? Gove: Yes, we can have a green brexit that ensures Britain is an environmental leader 2016 #BrexitLies #TorySewageParty https://t.co/iRPujCMTBF" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/ukiswitheu/status/1562077622569504769?fbclid=IwAR147b8YYuiNJ9CIjMA-Siq8ObkemBPAMq_t7Yqm9t_h4GAgqEOC8TqrXac)

even the princess told us..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fa0rtlmXoAA5LFT?format=jpg&name=small
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/300636973_5286267854822780_7172768024557146846_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=oehQMNw8KY0AX98TFmV&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9ERQCoNDL8lM5_Xk2kS_2NfSvZke1bGJ1vnRtd5ccp Eg&oe=630976ED


Damn right. Getting rid of that burdensome EU 'red tape' means more freedom. Now the government is free to allow the privatised water companies to pump millions of gallons of human keek into our seas and rivers. The sweet smell of freedom and human excrement.


https://youtu.be/Ul9_7sEpzMA

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/alextaylornews/status/1562509011865325571?s=21&t=ZqoW0OfUw-KNifqlRzgjJQ

Another clip from Maitlis speech last night. It really was impressive and I have a new found respect for her.


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https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2022/aug/24/emily-maitlis-says-active-tory-party-agent-shaping-bbc-news-output

She has previously called out the Tory appointees at the BBC (not limited to this ‘Sir’ Gibb fellow, but the previous BBC DG who’s name escapes me and was a Conservative local government bigwig also) who are directly influencing editorial output in a way unthinkable just ten years ago.

But the Tories complain about it being biased against THEM, so it must be impartial… :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62672105?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=twitter&at_custom3=%40BBCPolitics&at_campaign=64

All going well.[emoji106]


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[Bristolhibby]

Shirley you have to keep driving for a generation before you can decide which?

How long is a generation?

[Just Alf]

How long is a generation?According to the UK government they signed a treaty where it was identified as 7 years.

[cabbageandribs1875]

we can only Dream of Balance in Scotland Emily hen :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/301044011_10159401454948743_3107917440595349086_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=FdAoWQ9qPnAAX-RsyIE&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_8sHaB0DSQ9ubrdmlrPA0s2Sp4Sj0FMFpgI_naUCyV Ug&oe=630DBA0F

[grunt]

https://sciencebusiness.net/news-byte/scientists-leave-uk-china-overtakes-us-most-favoured-destination


The UK suffered an outflow of nearly 1,300 scientists in 2020, having been a net importer of academics in 2015, the year before the Brexit vote to leave the EU, OECD data shows.

https://sciencebusiness.net/sites/default/files/inline-images/nb0102_1050.jpg

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1563497279042236418?t=RgtvgpctzKfaPrDhzi3mIQ&s=19

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[Glory Lurker]

Where are posters defending Brexit? Not one.

[grunt]

Where are posters defending Brexit? Not one.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/976/homer-simpson-bush-gif.gif

[Hibrandenburg]

Where are posters defending Brexit? Not one.

Aren't those who support the Tories or Labour basically defending Brexit? :dunno:

[Stairway 2 7]

Article touching on brexit and leveling up
https://www.ft.com/content/82179f47-0544-472a-883e-9fb546d10c0a?accessToken=zwAAAYLeVHwGkdOCF59HBURHK tOIPp-1RtEMCg.MEQCIGPsyuJDfD6xwe2HgX2nFyxN7cqHbokBkbqGSm LNxhM6AiAtR16lRXLsTNE6THeQdafk2N6bLtWpSazLE3b-tGaM4g&segmentId=e95a9ae7-622c-6235-5f87-51e412b47e97&shareType=enterprise

Some bleak truths for Britain

[heretoday]

Where are posters defending Brexit? Not one.

There was a fair percentage of folk in Scotland who voted leave but they've been keeping their heads down.
I know one guy who wants Scotland to be entirely independent even of the EU or EFTA!
Takes all sorts.

[hibsbollah]

There was a fair percentage of folk in Scotland who voted leave but they've been keeping their heads down.
I know one guy who wants Scotland to be entirely independent even of the EU or EFTA!
Takes all sorts.

There’s a solid 20% who just don’t like immigrants, either culturally or economically. That was the essence of Brexit for some voters and those people up here OR down south will continue to support it from that standpoint (whether they care if these immigrants are now coming from outside the EU or from the EU itself depends on the individual xénophobe, I suppose). There are just as many of these people in Scotland as there is in England, polling shows.

https://www.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/bl/global/social-welfare/pdfs/non-secure/d/o/s/do-scotland-and-england-and-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration-18.pdf

[lapsedhibee]

There’s a solid 20% who just don’t like immigrants, either culturally or economically. That was the essence of Brexit for some voters and those people up here OR down south will continue to support it from that standpoint (whether they care if these immigrants are now coming from outside the EU or from the EU itself depends on the individual xénophobe, I suppose). There are just as many of these people in Scotland as there is in England, polling shows.

https://www.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/bl/global/social-welfare/pdfs/non-secure/d/o/s/do-scotland-and-england-and-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration-18.pdf

Good article.
My conclusion: Most of the people in Scotland who say that immigration is bad for the economy are just saying that to spite wee nippy who bangs on all the time about it being not just good, but necessary, for Scotland's economy.

[Hibrandenburg]

There’s a solid 20% who just don’t like immigrants, either culturally or economically. That was the essence of Brexit for some voters and those people up here OR down south will continue to support it from that standpoint (whether they care if these immigrants are now coming from outside the EU or from the EU itself depends on the individual xénophobe, I suppose). There are just as many of these people in Scotland as there is in England, polling shows.

https://www.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/bl/global/social-welfare/pdfs/non-secure/d/o/s/do-scotland-and-england-and-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration-18.pdf

I don't think it was ever in doubt that Scotland has just as many racists as England per head. The difference is the attitude of the majority towards than minority is what makes Scotland different imo.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think it was ever in doubt that Scotland has just as many racists as England per head. The difference is the attitude of the majority towards than minority is what makes Scotland different imo.

Do you mean you think there are a higher proportion of the 80% willing to positively and actively embrace immigration and welcome immigrants compared to Englands 80%?

[Stairway 2 7]

Very interesting thread on British immigration attitudes from the FT

https://mobile.twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1525766106119606273?lang=en

jburnmurdoch
NEW: for this week’s column I dug into the curious case of British attitudes to immigration

Before the EU ref, concern about immigration tracked levels of arrivals. Since then, immigration has kept rising but concerns have evaporated

What’s going on?

[lapsedhibee]

Very interesting thread on British immigration attitudes from the FT

https://mobile.twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1525766106119606273?lang=en

jburnmurdoch
NEW: for this week’s column I dug into the curious case of British attitudes to immigration

Before the EU ref, concern about immigration tracked levels of arrivals. Since then, immigration has kept rising but concerns have evaporated

What’s going on?

Farage is no longer on BBC flagship current affairs programmes every few days lying about it?

[Kato]

Very interesting thread on British immigration attitudes from the FT

https://mobile.twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1525766106119606273?lang=en

jburnmurdoch
NEW: for this week’s column I dug into the curious case of British attitudes to immigration

Before the EU ref, concern about immigration tracked levels of arrivals. Since then, immigration has kept rising but concerns have evaporated

What’s going on?Gaslighting is expensive and takes time. No backers now brexit is done.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Do you mean you think there are a higher proportion of the 80% willing to positively and actively embrace immigration and welcome immigrants compared to Englands 80%?

That and there's more of the 80% willing to shout racism down.

[Jack]

Eurostar is to suspend its direct train service between London and Disneyland Paris.

...

New rules for visitors to the EU are due to come into force by the end of May next year.

The system will mean travellers from outside the bloc must have their fingerprints scanned and photograph taken, instead of having their passport manually stamped.

[grunt]

A Brexit football story


Brexit stops Fulham making exciting Justin Kluivert signing even after £8m transfer agreed

https://samacharcentral.com/brexit-stops-fulham-making-exciting-justin-kluivert-signing-even-after-8m-transfer-agreed-football-sport/

[Kato]

"Festival of Brexit" a total flop.

I thought it was going to be a huge display of everything that is great and cutting edge about Britain and being British, showing how brilliant we are at being the best at everything.

Turns out it's just a ferago of crap that no one is interested in. Maybe people have got one eye on 120% of their income going on making a bit toast.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1565099591116230658?t=vfUL1CBTFOxfGfpOq4XbUg&s=19


Did anyone on here who is "proud to be british" attend any of the events.

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[Ozyhibby]

"Festival of Brexit" a total flop.

I thought it was going to be a huge display of everything that is great and cutting edge about Britain and being British, showing how brilliant we are at being the best at everything.

Turns out it's just a ferago of crap that no one is interested in. Maybe people have got one eye on 120% of their income going on making a bit toast.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1565099591116230658?t=vfUL1CBTFOxfGfpOq4XbUg&s=19


Did anyone on here who is "proud to be british" attend any of the events.

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Was the Festival of Brexit more expensive than our ferries?


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[Kato]

Was the Festival of Brexit more expensive than our ferries?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk4 times the amount of the Platinium Jubilee which celebrated a lady keeping a metal hat on her head for a very long time.

Doesn't matter how much it cost. Tory Govt chucks a billion here, 37 billion there no one gives a monkeys.

Only the SNP wastes money.

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[Jack]

"Festival of Brexit" a total flop.

I thought it was going to be a huge display of everything that is great and cutting edge about Britain and being British, showing how brilliant we are at being the best at everything.

Turns out it's just a ferago of crap that no one is interested in. Maybe people have got one eye on 120% of their income going on making a bit toast.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1565099591116230658?t=vfUL1CBTFOxfGfpOq4XbUg&s=19


Did anyone on here who is "proud to be british" attend any of the events.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Cost £120,000,000; 238,000 visitors. Over £500 each!

[ronaldo7]

Cost £120,000,000; 238,000 visitors. Over £500 each!

Just think how many kettles they could have purchased with that.

[grunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/04/it-was-a-brexit-export-champion-now-kent-brewery-has-one-eu-customer-left


A Kent brewery chosen to help champion export opportunities for the government after Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum) has revealed that burdensome customs checks and paperwork have left it with just one remaining customer in the EU.

The Old Dairy Brewery (https://olddairybrewery.com/) in Kent – a Department for International Trade export champion for the south-east – appeared in a government video last year promoting the potential to boost Brexit export sales.

However its exports of bottled and keg Kent ale to countries including Italy, Germany and Sweden have slumped since the UK left the EU because of the onerous paperwork.

The brewery now has just one EU customer, a Berlin pub operator who travels to England by van to pick up the beer. The value of the Kent brewery’s annual beer exports have fallen from £600,000 to £2,000.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oops already mentioned, sorry :)https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/304841946_10229453797511840_891532875109817495_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=CMo2EVEy4pEAX9ZVDXC&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9m1couHRjas6auJlNcbFZziX_DvSZ9IV6pBLy1zrsI Zg&oe=631A3C34

[Kato]

A Brexit bonus identified at last.

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1567823373098516482?t=JHITg535hobGW42merrVig&s=19

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[grunt]

Two headlines, separated by 4 years

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FchrKmLXEAIVagR?format=png&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FchrMeHXEAA1gTC?format=png&name=small

[Just Alf]

In other news...

There’s a fresh EU offer on the NI border. Can ERG-backed Truss accept?

https://twitter.com/edinnews/status/1569651074587312129?t=FO9ZoEsBAPjLWlwb12u04Q&s=19

[Kato]

In other news...

There’s a fresh EU offer on the NI border. Can ERG-backed Truss accept?

https://twitter.com/edinnews/status/1569651074587312129?t=FO9ZoEsBAPjLWlwb12u04Q&s=19My bet? An offer from the EU isn't going to acceptable. Mainly for the reason that it is from the EU.

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[grunt]

Liz Truss, "One thing I absolutely don't support is a windfall tax."

Ursula von der Leyen, "Profits must be shared and channeled to those who need it most."

Anyone else want to #RejoinEU?

[Colr]

There’s a solid 20% who just don’t like immigrants, either culturally or economically. That was the essence of Brexit for some voters and those people up here OR down south will continue to support it from that standpoint (whether they care if these immigrants are now coming from outside the EU or from the EU itself depends on the individual xénophobe, I suppose). There are just as many of these people in Scotland as there is in England, polling shows.

https://www.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/bl/global/social-welfare/pdfs/non-secure/d/o/s/do-scotland-and-england-and-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration-18.pdf

I recall a broad survey of political opinion across Europe which concluded that 20% of people are basically authoritarian fascists. A similar amount must be gullible fools as well.

[JimBHibees]

Cost £120,000,000; 238,000 visitors. Over £500 each!

Target visitor numbers was 66m people :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

I didn’t realise this. Important to remember:greengrin

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/27/remainers-blame-run-pound-claims-hedge-fund-tycoon-crispin-odey/?fbclid=IwAR3OFhLsQ58ilCcVPyL21iPRkAMXKpoeGFDuYJus y40iC-h_raYhcIkredg

[Bostonhibby]

I didn’t realise this. Important to remember:greengrin

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/27/remainers-blame-run-pound-claims-hedge-fund-tycoon-crispin-odey/?fbclid=IwAR3OFhLsQ58ilCcVPyL21iPRkAMXKpoeGFDuYJus y40iC-h_raYhcIkredgDoes this mean he will be doing the pro Britannia/ Brexit supporting bit by returning his hedge fund profits gleaned from the country he presumably is a patriot of?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Does this mean he will be doing the pro Britannia/ Brexit supporting bit by returning his hedge fund profits gleaned from the country he presumably is a patriot of?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkHe hates this country.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Does this mean he will be doing the pro Britannia/ Brexit supporting bit by returning his hedge fund profits gleaned from the country he presumably is a patriot of?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

No. Because it’s not his fault. It’s Remainers fault that Brexiteers did Brexit and bet against our currency before flogging it and stealing the profits from the U.K. economy. It’s you and me and other Remainers that should be paying for it.

[grunt]

No. Because it’s not his fault. It’s Remainers fault that Brexiteers did Brexit and bet against our currency before flogging it and stealing the profits from the U.K. economy. It’s you and me and other Remainers that should be paying for it.
Well he got that bit right.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.ft.com/content/e6884fa0-5897-44e7-a990-354ac743571a

Brexit ideology lies behind the UK’s market rout
Kwarteng’s statement last week was just one manifestation of the elevation of absolutism over economics

[Jack]

Dover getting its excuses in early for NEXT summer 🤣

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63074703

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/sabahmeddings/status/1576501948743880705

@sabahmeddings
A Kent brewery that the government proclaimed as an export champion after Brexit, is racing to find a buyer weeks after it revealed it had only one EU customer left.

Old Dairy Brewery is teetering on the edge of administration

[grunt]

What happened in 2016 to change direction of this graph?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeZkH6_WQAEJ1mt?format=png&name=small

[Bostonhibby]

What happened in 2016 to change direction of this graph?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeZkH6_WQAEJ1mt?format=png&name=smallI know Sevco failed to win the Scottish cup final but only the worst of the worst of the Scottish media could blame Hibs for causing this one.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Jones28]

What happened in 2016 to change direction of this graph?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeZkH6_WQAEJ1mt?format=png&name=small

If I’d known that winning the Scottish Cup would have caused this I wouldn’t have invaded the pitch when we won.

[grunt]

If I’d known that winning the Scottish Cup would have caused this I wouldn’t have invaded the pitch when we won.
It's all your fault.

[Stairway 2 7]

Brilliant thread with a brexiteer panicking about an influx of Indians ha ha.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Will_Tanner/status/1580176693289189376


Will Tanner
@Will_Tanner
The Government is reportedly considering agreeing a visa free travel scheme for under-35s as part of the UK-India Trade Deal, due to be signed by Diwali on 24 Oct.

Short thread on why we shouldn't be using trade deals to dictate migration policy

Indian trade negotiators argue that Australia and NZ have youth mobility schemes under their deals. But India is MUCH bigger & younger than either.

The UN estimates there were 412 million 18-34 yr-olds in India in 2021, vs 6m in Australian and 1m in NZ. It's not comparable

The UK just took a decision to end free movement with the EU (population 446m).

Voters might not unreasonably question whether we ended free movement with Europe to create it with India. We shouldn't forget backlash when EU8 accession led to 300k net migrants between 2004-9

There are obviously important economic differences, which inevitably affect migration dynamics.

In 2020, the average income/expenditure per day was $3 dollars in India, but over $40 in the UK. The incentive to move will be understandably strong

The other issue is immigration compliance. The UK has youth mobility schemes with Aus/NZ because of a long history of compliance.

Indian migrants have relatively high rates of overstaying, and India has historically at times resisted forced returns

The Conservative Manifesto which every MP stood on in 2019 was explicit: "overall the numbers will come down."

That hasn't happened yet: last year we issued 1 million visas. Its unlikely to ever happen if the price of trade is visa free immigration

[Ozyhibby]

Brilliant thread with a brexiteer panicking about an influx of Indians ha ha.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Will_Tanner/status/1580176693289189376


Will Tanner
@Will_Tanner
The Government is reportedly considering agreeing a visa free travel scheme for under-35s as part of the UK-India Trade Deal, due to be signed by Diwali on 24 Oct.

Short thread on why we shouldn't be using trade deals to dictate migration policy

Indian trade negotiators argue that Australia and NZ have youth mobility schemes under their deals. But India is MUCH bigger & younger than either.

The UN estimates there were 412 million 18-34 yr-olds in India in 2021, vs 6m in Australian and 1m in NZ. It's not comparable

The UK just took a decision to end free movement with the EU (population 446m).

Voters might not unreasonably question whether we ended free movement with Europe to create it with India. We shouldn't forget backlash when EU8 accession led to 300k net migrants between 2004-9

There are obviously important economic differences, which inevitably affect migration dynamics.

In 2020, the average income/expenditure per day was $3 dollars in India, but over $40 in the UK. The incentive to move will be understandably strong

The other issue is immigration compliance. The UK has youth mobility schemes with Aus/NZ because of a long history of compliance.

Indian migrants have relatively high rates of overstaying, and India has historically at times resisted forced returns

The Conservative Manifesto which every MP stood on in 2019 was explicit: "overall the numbers will come down."

That hasn't happened yet: last year we issued 1 million visas. Its unlikely to ever happen if the price of trade is visa free immigration

That should be enough to get Scottish racists switching to YES to get back in the EU.[emoji23]


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fe2Bq-wWQAEp-j-?format=jpg&name=large

[Moulin Yarns]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fe2Bq-wWQAEp-j-?format=jpg&name=large

She should know, she is one of those who has definitely out stayed her welcome.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1580135062003060738?s=46&t=4nbVyf-a3r9vcz_NEwwKeA

Worst on record.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1580135062003060738?s=46&t=4nbVyf-a3r9vcz_NEwwKeA

Worst on record.


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It's certainly in the right thread. Truss takes a lot of the blame, but it all circles back to brexit.

[grunt]

Yvette Cooper on top form.

https://twitter.com/Tucker5law/status/1580608023893975040?s=20&t=sgbaKQfxL2Y9vExaElAAAA (https://twitter.com/Tucker5law/status/1580608023893975040?s=20&t=sgbaKQfxL2Y9vExaElAAAA)

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221015/aeae6b2e8692177fd5ad0943a45f712d.jpg

UK economy has went from 94% of the German economy to 70% since 2016.


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[wookie70]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221015/aeae6b2e8692177fd5ad0943a45f712d.jpg

UK economy has went from 94% of the German economy to 70% since 2016.


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Plenty room to get worse imo. Nowhere near the bottom and it will really start to hit home how mad Brexit and the election of Johnson was this winter. The NHS will be devastated and public services will be destroyed. That was the plan and that was essentially what people voted for unless they are thick as mince

[grunt]

Can't believe this is from The Telegraph


Project Fear was right all alongSix years of policy confusion and ineptitude has brought a calamitous loss of standing


Downbeat predictions by the Treasury and others on the economic consequences of leaving the EU, contemptuously dismissed at the time by Brexit campaigners as "Project Fear", have been on a long fuse, but they have turned out to be overwhelmingly correct, and if anything have underestimated both the calamitous loss of international standing and the scale of the damage that six years of policy confusion and ineptitude has imposed on the country.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/10/15/project-fear-right-along/

[Bostonhibby]

Can't believe this is from The Telegraph





https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/10/15/project-fear-right-along/Crowns on pint glasses though, blue passports and taken back control of our borders, so allisbarry, as they used to say.

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[James310]

Can't believe this is from The Telegraph





https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/10/15/project-fear-right-along/

There is some irony in this post from your goodself though. You dismiss pretty much anything that's critical of the causes you support, exactly like the Brexiteers.

If I posted an article from an "expert" that was negative about Scottish Independence for example you would say they are talking Scotland down or they need to believe more etc. We should listen to experts.

You do see that don't you?

[grunt]

There is some irony in this post from your goodself though. You dismiss pretty much anything that's critical of the causes you support, exactly like the Brexiteers.



You seem to be arguing for argument sake. Leave me alone.

[James310]

You seem to be arguing for argument sake. Leave me alone.

Sure, no problem.

We are all guilty of it in someway, we dismiss the things that tell us stuff we don't want to hear and embrace the stuff that backs up what we do want to hear.

[grunt]

The UK's recent disastrous "mini" Budget can trace its origins back to Britain's decision to leave the European Union. The economic costs of Brexit were masked by the Covid-19 pandemic and the crisis in Ukraine. But six years after the UK voted to leave, the effect has become clear. In this film, senior FT writers and British businesspeople examine how Brexit hit the UK economy, the political conspiracy of silence, and why there has not yet been a convincing case for a 'Brexit dividend'.


https://youtu.be/wO2lWmgEK1Y

[Hibernia&Alba]

Before the Brexit referendum, does anyone recall Farage saying it was about lowering taxes, deregulation, shrinking the state, reducing employment rights etc? Me neither :hmmm:



https://youtu.be/hFAzXtvxqg0

[Killiehibbie]

Before the Brexit referendum, does anyone recall Farage saying it was about lowering taxes, deregulation, shrinking the state, reducing employment rights etc? Me neither :hmmm:



https://youtu.be/hFAzXtvxqg0

That and keeping London away from the EU's money laundering police were about the only reasons I could make any sense of the Tories wanting out of the EU.

[Stairway 2 7]

Great thread and video from the FT on the economic effects of Brexit

https://mobile.twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1582636481113464832

FinancialTimes
The economic costs of Brexit were masked by the Covid-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine. But six years after the UK voted to leave the EU, the Brexit effect has become clear.

In this film, we examine how Brexit hit the UK economy https://on.ft.com/3eFPwq1

[grunt]

Great thread and video from the FT on the economic effects of Brexit
Are you ignoring me?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=7133047&viewfull=1#post7133047

[JeMeSouviens]

Are you ignoring me?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=7133047&viewfull=1#post7133047

Embedded videos don't show up on mobile hibs.net.

But he could just be ignoring you. :dunno::wink:

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you ignoring me?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?339801-Brexit-What-Now&p=7133047&viewfull=1#post7133047

Didn't know what you were talking about, then realised you can't see embedded videos on mobile style so didn't see it. Worth showing it twice though ha, incase anyone was mistaken how much a disaster it was/is

[cabbageandribs1875]

She should know, she is one of those who has definitely out stayed her welcome.


and Truss has said she would like her back in the cabinet after xmas :rolleyes:


1. bold statement seeing as Truss quite probably will not be in a position to ask her back
2. maybe she meant a cabinet for nawty politicians, it would need to be a rather large Cabinet

[cabbageandribs1875]

A celebration of Brexit benefits for travellers (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/a-celebration-of-brexit-benefits-for-travellers/ar-AA132A9S?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=cb65b3e6d98e4158b47fb55aa7e1747e)

i didn't realise the RMT had urged it's members to leave the EU

tw@ts

[wookie70]

A celebration of Brexit benefits for travellers (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/a-celebration-of-brexit-benefits-for-travellers/ar-AA132A9S?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=cb65b3e6d98e4158b47fb55aa7e1747e)

i didn't realise the RMT had urged it's members to leave the EU

tw@ts For all I admire what the RMT are doing and have done for their members their stance on Brexit was not very compelling at the time. Now it looks idiotic
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

[Bostonhibby]

This keeps coming up.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221020/eb3e3478ec6f3c2860ef4b12e85b7e95.jpg

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[archie]

For all I admire what the RMT are doing and have done for their members their stance on Brexit was not very compelling at the time. Now it looks idiotic
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/I think the RMTs position was not very clearly expressed. My understanding is that it was underpinned by their call for a nationalised railway with vertical integration - track and operations. It's not possible under EU principles to do this as there has to be a seperation of track and operating companies and there has to be competition.

[grunt]

I think the RMTs position was not very clearly expressed. My understanding is that it was underpinned by their call for a nationalised railway with vertical integration - track and operations. It's not possible under EU principles to do this as there has to be a seperation of track and operating companies and there has to be competition.I remember reading this, but wasn't sure I understood the RMT argument. Surely the railways in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Ireland etc. are nationalised? Is it the vertical integration thing that the RMT were holding out for? Seems a weak argument when stacked against the entirely foreseeable damage to their members from other Brexit consequences...

[archie]

I remember reading this, but wasn't sure I understood the RMT argument. Surely the railways in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Ireland etc. are nationalised? Is it the vertical integration thing that the RMT were holding out for? Seems a weak argument when stacked against the entirely foreseeable damage to their members from other Brexit consequences...It's a bit like we have here now with Scotrail. It's owned by the SG but is a private company. It doesn't control the network and cannot be a sole operator. Which is why you see other companies operating. But the reality is that the system only works with big subsisdies, which is why we have seen the collapse of so many. It is theoretically possible that, being out of the EU, UK could simply nationalise the lot and not allow competition. It's similar for energy. Much is made about EDF in France being effectively nationalised. And the EU Commission has criticised France about the lack of competion. But there is competition.

[Keith_M]

It's a bit like we have here now with Scotrail. It's owned by the SG but is a private company. It doesn't control the network and cannot be a sole operator. Which is why you see other companies operating. But the reality is that the system only works with big subsisdies, which is why we have seen the collapse of so many. It is theoretically possible that, being out of the EU, UK could simply nationalise the lot and not allow competition. It's similar for energy. Much is made about EDF in France being effectively nationalised. And the EU Commission has criticised France about the lack of competion. But there is competition.


Germany seems to manage quite well with Deutsche Bahn, the state rail company, despite being in the EU.

Likewise Austria with ÖBB.

[archie]

Germany seems to manage quite well with Deutsche Bahn, the state rail company, despite being in the EU.

Likewise Austria with ÖBB.Well...https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_1843

[archie]

Germany seems to manage quite well with Deutsche Bahn, the state rail company, despite being in the EU.

Likewise Austria with ÖBB.Do you want to develop your point. I was trying to reflect why I think RMT took their position. Are you saying that it's not true?

[grunt]

I think the RMTs position was not very clearly expressed. As they say in social media, that aged well.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/


TRANSPORT UNION RMT today set out six key reasons why it will be advising members to vote to the leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum:

1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers

New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.

2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers

The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.

3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights

It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.

4. Leave the EU to end Austerity

If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.

5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.

6. Leave the EU to support democracy

The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…

“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”

[Kato]

Do you want to develop your point. I was trying to reflect why I think RMT took their position. Are you saying that it's not true?Lexit purists.

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[Colr]

Germany seems to manage quite well with Deutsche Bahn, the state rail company, despite being in the EU.

Likewise Austria with ÖBB.

Deutsche Bahn do so well they can afford to buy Arriva who run London’s buses.

[archie]

Deutsche Bahn do so well they can afford to buy Arriva who run London’s buses.

Yup. And Dutch railways ran ScotRail.

[Keith_M]

Do you want to develop your point. I was trying to reflect why I think RMT took their position. Are you saying that it's not true?


Wasn't a comment on RMT. We're all entitled to our point of view

Just a reflection on whether or not being in the EU restricts nationalised rail companies quite as much as they seemed to be suggesting.

[xyz23jc]

As they say in social media, that aged well.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

Check Mate! I think...!
:top marks

[Hibernia&Alba]

Bonkers Baker and the ERG are already making threats before a new PM is even in place:


https://youtu.be/y7j8HW3B-7g

[grunt]

Is it time to go back into the EU?
A straight "no" from Starmer

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1584528127396413440?s=20&t=lE4IQoqQ9Ycj9rqZzNPZ6w

[Hibrandenburg]

The cover of Spiegel.

"The Banana Island, how the Brits are making themselves the laughing stock of Europe".https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221025/0e935e1e309c3c0dd163859a73a21059.jpg

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221027/f2bd1de1548b80bf0fd5ca61e3133dc7.jpg

Taking back control of UK car production.[emoji106]


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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221027/f2bd1de1548b80bf0fd5ca61e3133dc7.jpg

Taking back control of UK car production.[emoji106]


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So what's the lesson to be learnt? Don't put up trade barriers with your biggest export markets. 👍

[Kato]

So what's the lesson to be learnt? Don't put up trade barriers with your biggest export markets. [emoji106]England would welcome back I'm sure.

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[Ozyhibby]

So what's the lesson to be learnt? Don't put up trade barriers with your biggest export markets. [emoji106]

We export more goods to the rest of the world than the rest of the UK. We need to open up those barriers now.


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[James310]

We export more goods to the rest of the world than the rest of the UK. We need to open up those barriers now.


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We export 60% of goods to rUK worth about £50BN. I am sure your stat doesn't include services and just physical goods, is that correct? What's the £ value of the physical goods.

[Keith_M]

The cover of Spiegel.

"The Banana Island, how the Brits are making themselves the laughing stock of Europe".https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221025/0e935e1e309c3c0dd163859a73a21059.jpg

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That looks a bit floppy...

[Jack]

There have been figures bandied about for Scotlands deficit and exports.

Where do these figures come from?

It's not as if the UK government has a track record of honesty when providing such figures nor could they ever be described as neutral in the debate.

Wasn't it the case when India became independent it transpired billions of rupees/pounds were being misallocated? Malta too to a lesser extent?

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000584129000

Podcast on the benefits of Brexit.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-rejoin-poll-b2212730.html

Brexit: Rejoining EU takes record 14-point lead in latest poll
Economic problems driving support for reversing Brexit ‘mistake’

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-rejoin-poll-b2212730.html

Brexit: Rejoining EU takes record 14-point lead in latest poll
Economic problems driving support for reversing Brexit ‘mistake’

There does seem to have been a change in the reporting of Brexit recently. The harm caused has been to hard for them to ignore.
Problem is that the two main UK parties are now pro Brexit. Only way back in is through Indy.


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[Stairway 2 7]

There does seem to have been a change in the reporting of Brexit recently. The harm caused has been to hard for them to ignore.
Problem is that the two main UK parties are now pro Brexit. Only way back in is through Indy.


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I think labour are worried of their shadow and jeopardising this win. They surely would put back some sort of trade agreement, but I wouldn't trust Starmer also.

Tories must see its financially disastrous, but I don't think they care. There might be a point where the gap between public opinion and policy becomes too big

[Stairway 2 7]

Took back control

GoodwinMJ
·
11h
Migrant Channel crossings to UK

2018 299
2019 1,843
2020 8,466
2021 28,461
2022 39,430 incl. 1000 today

Home Office/BBC

[Moulin Yarns]

Took back control

GoodwinMJ
·
11h
Migrant Channel crossings to UK

2018 299
2019 1,843
2020 8,466
2021 28,461
2022 39,430 incl. 1000 today

Home Office/BBC

It would be interesting to see how many people have come to the UK through official channels to live and work from both the EU and elsewhere for the same period.

[Stairway 2 7]

It would be interesting to see how many people have come to the UK through official channels to live and work from both the EU and elsewhere for the same period.

It won't be out until December but it's estimated this year will be the biggest year we've had for net migration. Wait until we go cap in hand to get a trade deal with India and the restrictions come down on 1.4 billion people.

Hopefully the uk becomes a little satellite of the Indian empire, be nice to be part of a powerful nation

[Moulin Yarns]

It won't be out until December but it's estimated this year will be the biggest year we've had for net migration. Wait until we go cap in hand to get a trade deal with India and the restrictions come down on 1.4 billion people.

Hopefully the uk becomes a little satellite of the Indian empire, be nice to be part of a powerful nation

Not exactly what I was looking for, but...



https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

[Stairway 2 7]

Not exactly what I was looking for, but...



https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

Huge Increase in foreign born population since brexit, not sure that's what they voted for

[Kato]

Huge Increase in foreign born population since brexit, not sure that's what they voted forNo one who was bothered at the time will notice. The media full attention is on the dinghies so their ire is directed towards the people on them.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/corrydes/status/1587005854204698624?s=46&t=zGPHj7RAxcH4CYb8rL5c0Q


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221031/09026d4f509ecbd2bf660341a5013822.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221031/09026d4f509ecbd2bf660341a5013822.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do the Irish Government release details of individuals applying for passports and what their jobs are?

What's the source for that information? Or is 'Twitter' the source?

[Ozyhibby]

Do the Irish Government release details of individuals applying for passports and what their jobs are?

What's the source for that information? Or is 'Twitter' the source?

I imagine that MP’s have to declare such things themselves to the register of members interests?


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[James310]

I imagine that MP’s have to declare such things themselves to the register of members interests?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, no requirement to do so.

Unless you are saying that's the source? Or you don't know?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221031/09026d4f509ecbd2bf660341a5013822.jpg


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He is currently trying to verify the number from his original source. But you just have to look at the number of Irish immigration to the UK in the 19th century to see that a fair proportion of the population could have Irish ancestry.

[James310]

He is currently trying to verify the number from his original source. But you just have to look at the number of Irish immigration to the UK in the 19th century to see that a fair proportion of the population could have Irish ancestry.

I bet it's made up. The Irish Government would be the only ones to know and they would not be releasing this level of information. More fake news I suspect.

[WeeRussell]

I bet it's made up. The Irish Government would be the only ones to know and they would not be releasing this level of information. More fake news I suspect.

Source?

[James310]

Source?

Source for what? I am not posting made up figures.

Or you asking if the Irish Government know how many passports they issue and who they issue them to? You would hope they would eh?

[Stairway 2 7]

The original tweet that was his source has deleted it, looks like it was made up

[grunt]

The original tweet that was his source has deleted it, looks like it was made upIt may well have been made up. I think the issue is that it is credible, believable. The Brexit demand was always to restrict freedom of movement for foreigners, not for themselves.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23090641.britain-become-nasty-shabby-loser-world-stage/


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[grunt]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23090641.britain-become-nasty-shabby-loser-world-stage/

The comments! :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

It may well have been made up. I think the issue is that it is credible, believable. The Brexit demand was always to restrict freedom of movement for foreigners, not for themselves.

I agree with the second part but Disagree with the first. The guy has 20 odd thousand followers, he should not be putting up random facts as gospel or people just disbelieve everything

[matty_f]

I agree with the second part but Disagree with the first. The guy has 20 odd thousand followers, he should not be putting up random facts as gospel or people just disbelieve everything

Agreed. Truth is important. Facts are important.

This is lost too often and we're poorer for it.

[grunt]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23094063.confidence-uk-science-ebbing-away-brexit-experts-warn/


UK SCIENTISTS have been told they can no longer take part in meetings organised by a key European infectious diseases agency due to Brexit (https://www.thenational.scot/news/brexit/) tensions, it has emerged.

A leading infectious disease expert who had been asked along to two meetings by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) was subsequently told the invite was cancelled, according to a report published in The British Medical Journal (BMJ). (https://www.bmj.com/content/379/bmj.o2604)

[Stairway 2 7]

Not brexit really but will p off they bams

Love immigration, hopefully more of it, should be more than 1 million people born in India living in UK soon

1 in 6 people in England and Wales born abroad wow.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/1587742167728013312
@jdportes
Census data on demography/migration for England & Wales just released by
@ons
.

Headlines: approx 1 in 6 residents born abroad (10 milllion, 17%), o/w 3.6m EU-born, 6.4m non-EU born.

These estimates are about 10% higher than previous official estimates.

Biggest growth was for those of Romanian origin: up from less than 100K to more than 500K, and much bigger than previous official estimates of 320K


Looking at longer term trends, number of foreign born rose as follows
4.5 million in 2001
7.3 million in 2011
10 million in 2021:

So despite all the political noise about immigration/changes in policy, very similar rise in both decades

[Oscar T Grouch]

The original tweet that was his source has deleted it, looks like it was made up

Think is was based on an original article in The Times so you're right probably made up. The Times and subsequently The Independent both reported on this a few times just after brexit, but there is nothing in the last few year I can find, I cannot access the original article due to the paywall

[Stairway 2 7]

Appears to have started on a parody account, that's after Chris Bryant mp shared it. The numbers are clearly daft.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/fact-checked-have-hundreds-of-british-mps-and-lords-really-applied-for-an-irish-passport-since-brexit-337942/

Times article says double digits but it's an old article.
https://archive.ph/RFHos

[CropleyWasGod]

It may well have been made up. I think the issue is that it is credible, believable. The Brexit demand was always to restrict freedom of movement for foreigners, not for themselves.

What is not in doubt is that the Irish Government has just issued its millionth passport this year.

https://twitter.com/Feargal_Sharkey/status/1587824323338846209?t=O2hOY4OZ401wETJE7LJtWQ&s=19

[Stairway 2 7]

What is not in doubt is that the Irish Government has just issued its millionth passport this year.

https://twitter.com/Feargal_Sharkey/status/1587824323338846209?t=O2hOY4OZ401wETJE7LJtWQ&s=19

Beating 2019s 935,000.
1,191 British people were granted Irish citizenship last year.

[Killiehibbie]

He is currently trying to verify the number from his original source. But you just have to look at the number of Irish immigration to the UK in the 19th century to see that a fair proportion of the population could have Irish ancestry.
You can only go back to Grandparents to qualify for a passport.

[hibsbollah]

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls-uk-eu/

If there was a referendum now, the U.K. would waltz back into Europe. And supporting it is Labour Party’s best chance of getting Scotland back. As well as what Starmer, you know, actually believes.

[Ozyhibby]

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls-uk-eu/

If there was a referendum now, the U.K. would waltz back into Europe. And supporting it is Labour Party’s best chance of getting Scotland back. As well as what Starmer, you know, actually believes.

Would we need to commit to the Euro?[emoji6][emoji23]


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[degenerated]

Would we need to commit to the Euro?[emoji6][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'd be surprised if the EU would want the UK back at all.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd be surprised if the EU would want the UK back at all.

They are pragmatic though and a way would be found.


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[degenerated]

They are pragmatic though and a way would be found.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt'd be ironic if Spain voted against it.

[hibsbollah]

I'd be surprised if the EU would want the UK back at all.

The individuals involved will be sick to the back teeth of dealing with the UK, but the UK is still a massive market and Brussels will definitely want us back. No sign of a political campaign for it here, so the 60% and growing who want to be European again have no voice.

[grunt]

The individuals involved will be sick to the back teeth of dealing with the UK, but the UK is still a massive market and Brussels will definitely want us back. No sign of a political campaign for it here, so the 60% and growing who want to be European again have no voice.:agree:

Just like the 48% have had no voice since 2016. We've been subject to a fascist coup.

[archie]

:agree:

Just like the 48% have had no voice since 2016. We've been subject to a fascist coup.As a remainer I have to ask how do you come to that conclusion?

[Smartie]

:agree:

Just like the 48% have had no voice since 2016. We've been subject to a fascist coup.

I can't help but think there's an opportunity for the LibDems.

Campaign on a rejoin the EU ticket and have moderate policies that will seem reasonable enough to the more moderate ends of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Leave them to fight each other on the pro Brexit, Union Jacks everywhere, Rwanda battleground.

Wouldn't be going against their principles and with FPTP you never know how it might actually end up.

Biggest problem is that they lack the type of charismatic leader they've had in the past.

[Hibrandenburg]

As a remainer I have to ask how do you come to that conclusion?

Living in a democracy where governmental coalitions are normal, it's reassuring to know that even if you are on the losing side of an election, you can still pretty much guarantee that some of the policies you voted for will be implemented because for the winning party to be able to do anything, they have to compromise with their coalition partners. The Brexit referendum saw 48% get nothing and a good percentage of the other 52% not getting what they thought they voted for.

[grunt]

As a remainer I have to ask how do you come to that conclusion?Apologies for my lack of clarity. It's two separate points. As pointed out by Hibrandenburg above, I was disappointed that neither Tories nor Labour paid any attention to the closeness of the referendum result, with the consequence that those who voted to Remain got absolutely no recognition whatsoever. Now you might argue that out means out, but there have been plenty discussions over the last six years which described how a softer Brexit could have been achieved which would have more closely reflected the actuality of the voting outcome.

The second point is that we now have a Tory Gov who consistently lie, break international law, damage relationships with our international allies, divert public money to themselves and their friends, ignore wholesale manifesto pledges and who are currently stoking the worst xenophobic rhetoric to pander to their bigoted right wing base. This is not actually a Tory Gov, but a BNP/EDL/UKIP Gov, and they were never elected to do the things they are now doing. It's a coup. And a fascist coup at that.

[archie]

Apologies for my lack of clarity. It's two separate points. As pointed out by Hibrandenburg above, I was disappointed that neither Tories nor Labour paid any attention to the closeness of the referendum result, with the consequence that those who voted to Remain got absolutely no recognition whatsoever. Now you might argue that out means out, but there have been plenty discussions over the last six years which described how a softer Brexit could have been achieved which would have more closely reflected the actuality of the voting outcome.

The second point is that we now have a Tory Gov who consistently lie, break international law, damage relationships with our international allies, divert public money to themselves and their friends, ignore wholesale manifesto pledges and who are currently stoking the worst xenophobic rhetoric to pander to their bigoted right wing base. This is not actually a Tory Gov, but a BNP/EDL/UKIP Gov, and they were never elected to do the things they are now doing. It's a coup. And a fascist coup at that.

But how is it a 'fascist coup'. After the Brexit vote the Tories won a thumping majority. And there will be an election in due course. It's a function of binary referenda, which is one reason they are so convulsive.

[archie]

Living in a democracy where governmental coalitions are normal, it's reassuring to know that even if you are on the losing side of an election, you can still pretty much guarantee that some of the policies you voted for will be implemented because for the winning party to be able to do anything, they have to compromise with their coalition partners. The Brexit referendum saw 48% get nothing and a good percentage of the other 52% not getting what they thought they voted for.

But it's not an election. As I said in the response to Grunt,it's a reason why referenda are so convulsive - a binary choice is naturally divisive and it's difficult to see where the space is to offer compromise. If yes had won in 2014 by 52:48 do you seriously think the position on independence would be softened?

[Ozyhibby]

But how is it a 'fascist coup'. After the Brexit vote the Tories won a thumping majority. And there will be an election in due course. It's a function of binary referenda, which is one reason they are so convulsive.

I agree. There were plenty of chances to change Brexit and to even reverse it but voters and politicians did not take it.
Now only Scotland has a chance to reverse it. We should take that chance when it comes.


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[hibsbollah]

After the Brexit vote the Tories won a thumping majority. ..

…a majority which was won on a mandate and a manifesto that bears very little resemblance to what they are now doing.

[archie]

…a majority which was won on a mandate and a manifesto that bears very little resemblance to what they are now doing.

Sure but the could reasonably argue COVID and Ukraine, as can all Governments.

[grunt]

But how is it a 'fascist coup'. After the Brexit vote the Tories won a thumping majority. And there will be an election in due course. It's a function of binary referenda, which is one reason they are so convulsive.
Please understand I am trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to make two separate points. One about Brexit and all parties' ignoring the 48%, and a separate point about the Tory party who are doing things now they never said they would do when canvassing for the 2019 election.

[grunt]

Sure but the could reasonably argue COVID and Ukraine, as can all Governments.Both of which have no bearing on the actions being taken by the Tories now.

As an example, just within the last few weeks, we've had one Tory leader proclaim tax cuts for all, especially those kings on high incomes. And now we have a Tory leader proclaiming tax hikes for all. They are lying to us.

[archie]

Both of which have no bearing on the actions being taken by the Tories now.

As an example, just within the last few weeks, we've had one Tory leader proclaim tax cuts for all, especially those kings on high incomes. And now we have a Tory leader proclaiming tax hikes for all. They are lying to us.
Far be it from me to defend the Tories, but there is an argument (on paper at least) that could be made to justify those choices. But the chaotic flip flopping doesn't make for a coup. I think fascist is thrown about too much now, which dilutes its meaning .

[JeMeSouviens]

But how is it a 'fascist coup'. After the Brexit vote the Tories won a thumping majority. And there will be an election in due course. It's a function of binary referenda, which is one reason they are so convulsive.

On 43% of the vote. FPTP is a ******g nightmare.

Also, undoing Brexit (for the UK) is going to take many elections if it ever happens at all.

I think "fascist coup" is a bit strong myself, but it's hardly been a festival of democracy in the past few years.

[hibsbollah]

Far be it from me to defend the Tories, but there is an argument (on paper at least) that could be made to justify those choices. But the chaotic flip flopping doesn't make for a coup. I think fascist is thrown about too much now, which dilutes its meaning .

I don’t think it’s ‘thrown around’ nearly enough. If we look around the world it is the dominant political ideology. Often posing as something else, as in Trumps USA or Poland, or Hungary or Israel. Fascists generally don’t advertise themselves as such. The Priti Patel/Braverman Home Secretaries fulfil the definition quite nicely.

[grunt]

I don’t think it’s ‘thrown around’ nearly enough. If we look around the world it is the dominant political ideology. Often posing as something else, as in Trumps USA or Poland, or Hungary or Israel. Fascists generally don’t advertise themselves as such. The Priti Patel/Braverman Home Secretaries fulfil the definition quite nicely.
Thank you. We need to call this behaviour out otherwise it will be too late. Take a look at some of the bills that the Tories are forcing through Parliament.

[Smartie]

I don’t think it’s ‘thrown around’ nearly enough. If we look around the world it is the dominant political ideology. Often posing as something else, as in Trumps USA or Poland, or Hungary or Israel. Fascists generally don’t advertise themselves as such. The Priti Patel/Braverman Home Secretaries fulfil the definition quite nicely.

It's occasionally thrown around incorrectly though, which doesn't help.

There's a Tory guy who I occasionally joust with in a WhatsApp group who is in favour of the Rwanda policy and will occasionally share photos of disabled people in the street who he thinks are "at it" who believes the SNP are fascist mainly because of the optics of the marches with flags etc that happen. I don't think it's that uncommon a view amongst folk who are basically fascists themselves.

I think most folk (other than possibly Paulo Di Canio) accept that it's not really nice to be called a fascist, so it can be a lazily applied label to something someone happens to find distasteful.

Which allows true fascism to sometimes remain undercover and do the damage that it does, exactly like the Priti/ Braverman stuff you mention.

[archie]

I don’t think it’s ‘thrown around’ nearly enough. If we look around the world it is the dominant political ideology. Often posing as something else, as in Trumps USA or Poland, or Hungary or Israel. Fascists generally don’t advertise themselves as such. The Priti Patel/Braverman Home Secretaries fulfil the definition quite nicely.Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

I have mentioned before the coarsening of political debate. That's not being prim about language. It's about the demonisation of opponents and the dehumanisation of people who don't agree. Witness in Russia and China in particular - would you class these as fascist?

I've seen it thrown about so much (recently in the context of the trans debate) that it can become meaningless. And that's dangerous. Beacuse of if a serious critique of Orban gets treated the same as a discussion about JK Rowling the Orban and the like will win.

[hibsbollah]

Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

I have mentioned before the coarsening of political debate. That's not being prim about language. It's about the demonisation of opponents and the dehumanisation of people who don't agree. Witness in Russia and China in particular - would you class these as fascist?

I've seen it thrown about so much (recently in the context of the trans debate) that it can become meaningless. And that's dangerous. Beacuse of if a serious critique of Orban gets treated the same as a discussion about JK Rowling the Orban and the like will win.

Regarding China, yes I absolutely would. From very early on in Maos reign it was obvious he was a Nationalist first, a communist second anyway. As the CCP embraced capitalism after Deng and kept the authoritarianism of communism, it was only a matter of time that power became more centralised, and Xi is now a leader for life, with total control of debate, deification of the military, a police state and concentration camps. There is no other word that better describes what China is.

[grunt]

Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.
Definition:


a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autocratic) government headed by a dictatorial (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictatorial) leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

We're heading that way.


Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy? They are using their majority to move power from parliament to the executive
do they rely on violence and physical force? Let's have a look at the political control of the police and recent findings about poor police vetting. Ask the attendees at the Sarah Everard vigil.
do they silence the prrss and kill opponents? They don't need to silence the press, they own it, and they control the state broadcast media. We have lengthy thread about it on here. And I'm not aware of them killing opponents but there's an unexplained death of an independence activist which someone mentioned some time ago. I confess to not knowing about it.
and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Not at present - but see moves on voter ID and boundary changes

[grunt]

You'll have seen this before I expect, but it's worth another airing, I think.


https://youtu.be/nVZ3QwA5wy8

[hibsbollah]

Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

I have mentioned before the coarsening of political debate. That's not being prim about language. It's about the demonisation of opponents and the dehumanisation of people who don't agree. Witness in Russia and China in particular - would you class these as fascist?

I've seen it thrown about so much (recently in the context of the trans debate) that it can become meaningless. And that's dangerous. Beacuse of if a serious critique of Orban gets treated the same as a discussion about JK Rowling the Orban and the like will win.


There was a very good piece by Zoe Williams today about how complaints about coarsening of debate can sometimes threaten the debate itself...is there room for polite discourse when real liberties are (literally) being taken?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/03/lefties-civil-suella-braverman-woke-army-free-speech

[neil7908]

Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

I have mentioned before the coarsening of political debate. That's not being prim about language. It's about the demonisation of opponents and the dehumanisation of people who don't agree. Witness in Russia and China in particular - would you class these as fascist?

I've seen it thrown about so much (recently in the context of the trans debate) that it can become meaningless. And that's dangerous. Beacuse of if a serious critique of Orban gets treated the same as a discussion about JK Rowling the Orban and the like will win.

Out of curiosity, what makes something extremely right wing but not fascism? Can you give me a real life example of a party or group that are extremely right wing but not fascist? Is Trump a fascist?

For me the UK isn't a fascist country but we are showing signs of moving in that direction.

[archie]

Out of curiosity, what makes something extremely right wing but not fascism? Can you give me a real life example of a party or group that are extremely right wing but not fascist? Is Trump a fascist?

For me the UK isn't a fascist country but we are showing signs of moving in that direction. There's been lots of right wing governments in Europe. You could make a case for France in the 60s and probably Poland and Hungary now having tendencies, but here I would say Thatcher was probably the most right wing, but I wouldn't say she was a fascist. Oddly many right wingers, particularly those of a libertarian persuasion, are very anti authoritarian. I just don't see any western European country tipping into fascism. Even Sweden!

[hibsbollah]

Out of curiosity, what makes something extremely right wing but not fascism? Can you give me a real life example of a party or group that are extremely right wing but not fascist? Is Trump a fascist?

For me the UK isn't a fascist country but we are showing signs of moving in that direction.

It’s not a rigorous scientific definition, but right wing libertarianism definitely exists which values freedom of thought. So Reagans US, Thatchers Britain (despite some of the ‘enemy within’ rhetoric), and in France, Macrons economic policies are extreme right (although he’s laughably portrayed as ‘a centrist’)while at the same time broadly valuing pluralist thought.

[Bostonhibby]

I can't help but think there's an opportunity for the LibDems.

Campaign on a rejoin the EU ticket and have moderate policies that will seem reasonable enough to the more moderate ends of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Leave them to fight each other on the pro Brexit, Union Jacks everywhere, Rwanda battleground.

Wouldn't be going against their principles and with FPTP you never know how it might actually end up.

Biggest problem is that they lack the type of charismatic leader they've had in the past.Lib dems just going to perform a Clegg type road to Damascus moment and save a minority England based nasty party.

Toxic coalition where a few lib dems like Davey suddenly realise they always wanted to be ministers in a nasty party led government?

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[Ozyhibby]

Do the tories reject parliamentary democracy, do they rely on violence and physical force, do they silence the prrss and kill opponents, and are they immune from being voted out of political office? Of course not. I really can't stand the Patel/Braverman approach and I have real concerns about the wider development of anti-politics in the world. But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

I have mentioned before the coarsening of political debate. That's not being prim about language. It's about the demonisation of opponents and the dehumanisation of people who don't agree. Witness in Russia and China in particular - would you class these as fascist?

I've seen it thrown about so much (recently in the context of the trans debate) that it can become meaningless. And that's dangerous. Beacuse of if a serious critique of Orban gets treated the same as a discussion about JK Rowling the Orban and the like will win.

Tories absolutely reject parliamentary democracy in Scotland.


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[Bristolhibby]

You can only go back to Grandparents to qualify for a passport.

Sadly I’m one generation too short. I found out my great Grandmother (my Nanas Mum) was born in Dublin while doing some research on my family tree.

Told my Mum that she can get her Irish citizenship if she wants to retain her EU citizenship.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I can't help but think there's an opportunity for the LibDems.

Campaign on a rejoin the EU ticket and have moderate policies that will seem reasonable enough to the more moderate ends of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Leave them to fight each other on the pro Brexit, Union Jacks everywhere, Rwanda battleground.

Wouldn't be going against their principles and with FPTP you never know how it might actually end up.

Biggest problem is that they lack the type of charismatic leader they've had in the past.

That is literally their policy.

J

[Bristolhibby]

But it's not an election. As I said in the response to Grunt,it's a reason why referenda are so convulsive - a binary choice is naturally divisive and it's difficult to see where the space is to offer compromise. If yes had won in 2014 by 52:48 do you seriously think the position on independence would be softened?

Thing is Brexit wasn’t binary. There were a whole host of ways we could have “left”.

Hard Leave - WTO terms.
Norway Model - leave the Single Markey but remain in the Customs Union.
Canada Deal - Leave the Single Market and Customs Union, but negotiate a
bilateral trade agreement.
Turkey Model - Leave the Single Market but negotiate a customs Union.

There were a number of ways we could have left, but our Government went for option 1.

Whereas given the tight outcome of the vote you’d have thought the natural way to leave would have been one of the other 3 options.

J

[archie]

Thing is Brexit wasn’t binary. There were a whole host of ways we could have “left”.

Hard Leave - WTO terms.
Norway Model - leave the Single Markey but remain in the Customs Union.
Canada Deal - Leave the Single Market and Customs Union, but negotiate a
bilateral trade agreement.
Turkey Model - Leave the Single Market but negotiate a customs Union.

There were a number of ways we could have left, but our Government went for option 1.

Whereas given the tight outcome of the vote you’d have thought the natural way to leave would have been one of the other 3 options.

J

I see what you mean. I wonder if the opposition tactics might have been better organised to push for a softer Brexit.

[Bristolhibby]

I see what you mean. I wonder if the opposition tactics might have been better organised to push for a softer Brexit.

They did, but the ERG Tories and Johnson and their chums in the press painted the narrative that any compromise was “stealing our BREXIT”.

When in fact there were many softer BREXITS that wouldn’t have wiped out 4% of our GDP. Could do with that in this current climate.

The well seems poisoned. Labour have to keep quiet regarding alignment as the Touries would use it as a damaging attack line - Starmer is trying to steal your BREXIT. I totally believe that in two years time when Starmers Labour come to power there will be a quiet realignment to the EU, with eventually feelers put out to some sort of customs union.

J

[hibsbollah]

There was a very good piece by Zoe Williams today about how complaints about coarsening of debate can sometimes threaten the debate itself...is there room for polite discourse when real liberties are (literally) being taken?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/03/lefties-civil-suella-braverman-woke-army-free-speech

And to build on that earlier point, the Minister Chris Phillp has been quoted today as saying these refugees fleeing war and persecution, 'had a bit of a cheek' complaining about the conditions at the detention centre, because they have entered the UK illegally. What kind of human being is this? Where's the empathy? To me, this kind of talk does not deserve anything else but furious resistance, he's just one of the nasty 20% that spoil most societies, and if resisting him means a 'coarsening' of the debate I frankly couldnt give a flying one.

[grunt]

And to build on that earlier point, the Minister Chris Phillp has been quoted today as saying these refugees fleeing war and persecution, 'had a bit of a cheek' complaining about the conditions at the detention centre, because they have entered the UK illegally.
Another Tory lie. Don't talk to me about coarsening debate when our elected representatives lie to us on a daily basis.

[Col2]

When the BOE governor refuses to mention the “B” word (as a known strongly supporting remainer” when faced with the longest recession looming and desperate growth predictions when we crawl out of recession…… you know the system is completed screwed.

[Bostonhibby]

When the BOE governor refuses to mention the “B” word (as a known strongly supporting remainer” when faced with the longest recession looming and desperate growth predictions when we crawl out of recession…… you know the system is completed screwed.Yep, was thinking that, he did make an almighty f up of his last role but we ain't in a great place when the apparently independent BOE governor is willing to toe this particular line.

Mark Carney, he definitely isn't. A fair chunk of what Carney warned us against pre Brexit is what we are living with today......

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[cabbageandribs1875]

so here's Nigel Farage signing alongside

the Dover Terrorist

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/313254995_10230061929434758_5981567835895746965_n. jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=RDZRD4PHkDgAX8jodRN&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfCktIUgMD0xADfirnqYWWIK4X1n9BpCkdMLSQg1SsXQ Yg&oe=636B338A

[grunt]

But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

Not fascist at all. Here's some of the proposals in Braverman's "Public Order Bill" ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgzjHcCWIAQNZYj?format=jpg&name=large